What happens when financial security starts to overshadow spiritual reliance? Join us as we explore this profound tension through personal stories and the teachings of the Bible. We delve into the spiritual and moral implications of possessing substantial wealth and how it can subtly shift our dependence away from God. With biblical stories like the rich young ruler, we discuss how financial resources such as health insurance might impact one's spiritual journey, potentially reducing the need to lean on faith for basic needs. The challenge of maintaining faith amidst wealth sparks a thought-provoking discussion about the importance of addressing money's spiritual aspects in our church communities.
Balancing financial responsibilities with spiritual practice can often feel like a juggling act. We reflect on the difficult choices between working overtime to make ends meet and creating a life rhythm that honors the Sabbath and cherishes quality time with loved ones. This episode encourages self-reflection, prompting questions about our spending habits and lifestyle choices—do they align with spiritual values or merely offer the illusion of security? We also discuss the potential of forming money accountability groups to deepen our reflection and ensure our financial decisions resonate with our faith principles.
We navigate broader societal themes, discussing money's role in Christian theology, stewardship, politics, and healthcare. With insights from our guests, Ronson—a pastor and coffee shop owner— and Christian, a full time pastor. We examine the functioning of wealthy societies and the pitfalls of wealth concentration. The conversation extends to political ideologies, corporate responsibility, and the complexities of healthcare systems, all while maintaining a critical eye on how these issues intersect with our faith. Join us for an engaging and insightful exploration of how wealth impacts both personal and communal spiritual journeys.
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Blog: https://www.unhingedchristianblog.com/blog
X/Twitter: https://twitter.com/PalebCarker
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
We're going to try and get this wrapped up, because
you've got to get to the hockeygame, sure, and so we'll start
off with each of you introducingyour names and telling us what
you do.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
So I'm Christian and there's that clap.
It's going to be in there.
Yeah, so I am a pastor, so I'mglad to be a part of the pastor
crew on your podcast.
I work at a church here inKentwood and I do work with
middle school and high schoolstudents.
It's pretty awesome.
I love it.
Speaker 1 (00:28):
Is that your full-time job?
Yeah, that is, it is full-time.
Speaker 3 (00:31):
Yep, my name is Ronson.
I am a pastor as well, but Idon't get paid for it, so I work
at a house church network.
It's really small, part-time,but full-time.
I run a coffee shop here inGrand Rapids.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
All right, so today we're going to talk about
Christianity and money.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
Let's go.
Speaker 1 (00:52):
So where do we want to start?
Speaker 2 (00:55):
Man I Ronson, where do you want to start?
Speaker 1 (01:01):
Yeah, because last thing I heard you say was that,
if I heard it correctly, wasthat you can't have a billion
dollars and serve the Lord.
Ooh.
Speaker 3 (01:10):
Did you hear that from us?
Speaker 1 (01:11):
I heard that from one of you when we left Manali's
Unless I could have misheard.
Speaker 3 (01:15):
Personally, I would make that argument.
I would definitely say the same.
Speaker 1 (01:20):
Yeah, but how do you like?
Where's the line drawn?
Speaker 3 (01:22):
Sure sure, the billion dollars thing has not as
much to do theologically andmore just practically.
If you are a billionaire, thenyou fundamentally.
It's really hard to do thatwithout stepping on people and
taking advantage of the system.
Sure, and so you'refundamentally taking advantage
of a flawed system and takingadvantage of the poor and
vulnerable people who haveallowed you to become a
billionaire.
(01:42):
So in that sense probably not,but I don't think that's.
The essence of the question ishow much money is too much to
have.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
Yeah, I mean I was thinking about this a little bit
on the way over here and I waslike man, like I really don't
want to win the lottery someday,because I do think that it
would.
It would be crazy Like justhaving such a huge like sum of
money Like I don't know.
I know that it would change meand and so yeah, just kind of
(02:12):
like from a moral foundation,like I've just been.
One of the things I'vediscovered or just kind of
thought about when I think aboutthe Bible is like I haven't
found any passages that reallytalk about money positively.
Yeah, so that's just like arandom, like a random foundation
, and I think like we've got alot of wonderful Christian books
on money, but I've definitelyfound a lot that don't talk
about it positively.
So I would not want to win thelottery.
That'd be scary.
Having a million dollars Ooh,that's crazy.
Speaker 3 (02:34):
I think a great place to start biblically is like
Mark 10.
I mean the precedence of therich young ruler.
He's in three of the gospelsand I think that's such a great
passage because it's justdemonstrating to what degree can
you have money and follow Jesusfrom the perspective of Jesus.
Speaker 1 (02:58):
Yeah, that would be my question.
Speaker 3 (03:00):
Yeah, and I think so much of it goes down to the more
you have, the less you canactually depend on God.
And when we have so much, wecan only theoretically depend on
God, like, oh, I trust God, Itrust God with everything, I
would give God everything.
But if you don't need to giveGod anything, if you don't need
to rely for anything, if youdon't need to pray for anything,
(03:23):
because fundamentally all yourneeds are met, your ability to
trust God is severely hindered.
It doesn't mean it's impossible,but Jesus declares that the
more you have, you can't reallyrely on me, yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:36):
I mean, I was praising God this past week for
health insurance and because,like you know, I've just been
going through some random, justlike I have what's called like
cluster headaches and, you know,super helpful to just get some
diagnosis.
But I was like man, if I waspoor I would be praying a lot
more.
Like I haven't prayed about it,like it's been good, like
people prayed over me, it's beenhelpful, but like the doctor
(03:59):
has been able to give me adiagnosis, give me a
prescription, give me a planthat provides me a path forward,
if I was poor and couldn'tafford, you know, you can see
like you can see like okay,insurance paid this percentage,
et cetera, et cetera.
And I was like man, if I waspoor this would have taken
longer, you know, at least wouldhave taken me at least two more
weeks, you know, and I'm justbeing kind of generous to like
(04:20):
that process of, like I stillwould have sought help, et
cetera and all that stuff.
But you know, just having healthinsurance you know it's a
simple thing like that Like itdefinitely creates a different
level of relying on God, youknow.
And so, even just through thepast, you know, three weeks of
having this like just smalllittle medical thing.
Like man, if I was at aslightly less medical access,
(04:41):
slightly less, you know,economic access, it would have
taken me longer.
It would have been more of aspiritual journey.
So yeah, it's just somethingthat, like, I think you know, in
the church, when we talk aboutmoney, we we don't always, you
know, talk about the spiritual,just like the spiritual aspects
of it as much as we should.
(05:04):
We talk about it verypractically sometimes.
Speaker 3 (05:06):
Yeah, and we talk about being good stewards rather
than stewarding yourrelationship with God, in the
sense that if you can't rely onGod for your basic needs,
because your basic needs aremore than met, then you have to
rely on God in other ways oryou'll have to just rely on God
in thought, like your salvation,like, oh, I accepted Jesus, but
(05:28):
I don't necessarily live forJesus because I don't need to.
It's more of like anintellectual ascent to trusting
God, and I think that goes backto the premise of the Desert
Fathers and everything that theywere doing.
It was when Rome acceptedChristianity as their religion.
(05:50):
Christians, who were in constantpersecution and constant
martyrdom, had to find ways tomake Christianity difficult for
them so that they could trustGod, because suddenly they went
from a faith that was built onpersecution to a faith that is
accepted by everyone.
And so these people went out tothe desert because they're like
it is too easy to just becomplacent.
(06:12):
Now I need to experiencesomething in which it is
difficult.
I need to give stuff up for God, because being a Christian
means I don't have to give upanything now, if Rome is
Christian, I don't need to giveup anything to be a Christian,
where before you gave upeverything to be a Christian,
and so they moved out to thedesert to do that.
And so I think we have to thinkabout our lives today and say,
(06:35):
like, do I have to give upanything to be a Christian?
Like, actually, day-to-day, isthis a sacrifice in any
meaningful way that connects meto God.
Speaker 2 (06:43):
Yeah, so, caleb, how unhinged can we be?
Speaker 1 (06:51):
As we start to build a little theology of money or
just kind of talk about the wordyou can be as unhinged as you
want.
Speaker 2 (06:53):
Word.
What's your perspective onmoney?
Kind of like, you know, I knowwe probably all came from a
little bit, you know differentbackgrounds, you know.
Just kind of like, well, Iwould say for me because I'm not
.
Speaker 1 (07:02):
I got to turn my headphones up.
I have not been, I'm not atheologian, I haven't gone to
seminary, I'm not a pastor, so Ireally don't know anything and
that's why I brought you guys onhere.
But as far as I'm concerned, Ithink that money is not an issue
, as long as you steward itproperly.
Yeah, because in Proverbs itdoes say wealth gained over time
(07:26):
is a lot better than wealthgained hastily, like if you had
won the lottery, yep.
Speaker 3 (07:31):
You think Jesus would say money is not an issue.
Speaker 1 (07:37):
I don't know.
I know he says to the richyoung ruler right, he says, go
and sell your things and he can.
Speaker 2 (07:43):
And he also says that it's harder for a rich person
to get to heaven than it is, orit's what's the quote easier for
yeah, to go to the eye of aneedle yeah I remember, like
being in theology class and likeI don't even know like who
first said it, but I remember,like you know, being in a church
where someone's like, oh, likeyou know that verse about the
eye of the needle, and theytalked about like, oh, like,
there's this place in, like youknow that verse about the eye of
(08:04):
the needle, and they talkedabout like, oh, like, there's
this place in, like you knowIsrael, somewhere where there's
this like rock structure thatthey called the eye of the
needle, and so like, have youheard this before?
Yeah, that's a very prosperitygospel take on it and I heard it
and then my professor was justlike it's just 100% made up.
Speaker 3 (08:18):
Yeah when I took a trip to Palestine, israel, we
went to that place and they'relike this is just not true, this
doesn't exist.
And people say that to try tomake the idea of wealth more
easier to swallow, Like, okay,we can have money to this extent
.
It's hard but not possible.
But what Jesus is saying isit's impossible.
(08:40):
But then later he says but withGod all things are possible.
And so those things are intension with one another.
It is impossible to followGod's law of money, but all
things are possible with God.
So it really goes back to doyou actually trust him with your
life?
Is he Lord of your life?
If he asked you to give upeverything which you did, this
(09:04):
rich young man, would you do itand follow him?
And for that man?
Speaker 1 (09:08):
no, he couldn't do it right yeah.
Speaker 3 (09:09):
No, but fortunately for us we don't have Jesus
saying, will you give upeverything to follow me?
Speaker 2 (09:14):
Like if we did, I think we'd have a lot less
disciples of Jesus, because theywould say, fundamentally, I
can't yeah no-transcript and Iwas like OK, like OK, it's
(09:38):
literally impossible and likekind of to, you know, for a
wealthy person to have that sortof like maybe mindset and how
they approach the relationshipwith Jesus and you know.
But a couple of things you know, I do think.
You know, I want to be like Ilove, like I love everything the
church teaches.
You know, I remember Ronson andI were part of a class and they
kind of had like a it was likea wheel, it was a helpful, it
(10:08):
was a helpful wheel Like, but Ithink in general it's a very
american, um, you know,christian church wheel.
That was like 25, you know,save 25.
You know try to cut off debt,you know 20, try to live off 25.
And then it was like what wasthe other 25?
Speaker 3 (10:15):
I don't remember yeah , but and it's all that is like
but does that translate to everyamount of money?
Speaker 2 (10:22):
right, yeah, exactly, so, yeah.
So that's where I'm going withit.
Speaker 3 (10:24):
It can't possibly translate, because, in my life,
say what you will about whatpercentage of each income, but I
know that more than 50% of myincome is going to my monthly
housing payments and so,fundamentally, with the system
that we're in, we can't justdecide.
(10:46):
No, I think that was a greatconcept for the 1950s.
Speaker 2 (10:51):
Right.
Speaker 3 (10:52):
But the economy just doesn't match anymore.
Speaker 1 (10:54):
Right.
Speaker 3 (10:56):
The cost of living and the wages that we have just
are not the same and we can'tpretend like they're not.
So I think to an extent, we areright now, in 2024,
experiencing a little bit morefinancial dependency.
I think a lot of people whowere more comfortable are
experiencing uncomfortabilityfinancially, maybe for the first
time, or just moreuncomfortability than they've
(11:17):
ever been.
I know like that's kind of theboat I'm in, like I didn't have
to struggle with money, like Ihad enough, and now I'm like
Like I'm I didn't have tostruggle with money, like I had
enough, and now I'm like, oh boy, I don't always feel like I
have enough money.
Speaker 2 (11:29):
I got that house.
Gotta start.
Gotta start tracking it.
Speaker 3 (11:32):
I get worried when my bills are coming around and.
I'm looking.
I'm like I get paid on Fridaysand I'm like okay, well, the
first of the month is on aThursday, so I'm not getting
paid until the next day, but thebills are coming out, and so
there is a lot of trust that weneed to learn to develop.
We need to translate that intodo you trust God to provide?
(11:52):
Because I don't think in theChristian world today we even
correlate my financial strugglesto my relationship with God.
Anymore we don't think about it.
It's my relationship with God.
And oh, I got to get my billsto pay, I got to get this lined
up, I got to work for here.
It's like there's no reliance.
The only reliance I havefrequently for money is my hours
(12:13):
, like, oh, I'm working 45 hours, I'm getting some time in the
half this week that will be, thereliance I need.
It's like I need to translatethat into do I trust God to
provide, not just oh yeah, god'sgoing to give me money, but
it's more of that spiritualdependence.
Like am I seeking the Fatherevery?
Day to provide for my needs,the daily bread that Christ has
(12:33):
called us to seek every day.
I know I don't.
Speaker 1 (12:37):
So there's also no complaints when you do get the
time to have no, of course not,I fundamentally need that to
survive, yeah, so oh, I mean allthis kind of work a little
similarly.
Speaker 2 (12:48):
Yeah, like and you know I'm salaried, um.
So for you, ronson, like whenyou feel that it's getting
closer like the tension of likeyou know, your budget's a little
closer, like and you have theopportunity to work over time,
like what's your choice, I'mjust like, if you're like man, I
could take a sabbath or I couldwork overtime, yes, like, like,
(13:09):
you know, like because I felt,I felt similar feelings you know
, yeah, I mean you do itsometimes just on top of your
job just to get more.
Speaker 3 (13:17):
It's out, it's out there on the podcast.
Everybody knows it's public.
Speaker 2 (13:21):
It's's public, yeah, no, I mean at different times,
yeah, and and I.
But I felt that you know, forme, like working 40 hours, you
know, my days are, you know,pretty much almost the same
every week.
Like I felt that tension oflike man, I need to make a
little extra money, like, like,like there's going to be
something that's either going tonot we're either going to not
(13:42):
have money, like me and my wifeMichaela, or I'm going to have
to door dash, or I'm going tohave to trust God.
And I felt that tension of likeGod has a life that he wants me
to live, you know, a life ofrhythm, sabbath, date nights,
all that sort of stuff.
And if I door dash or do anextra side hustle, I'm cutting
something out.
And where do I trust him andwhere do I?
Speaker 1 (14:03):
you're cutting something out that could be
life-giving.
My question is where is thetrust versus because couldn't?
Working at date night can be aspiritual value for your life.
Whatever that is, I wouldn'tknow.
Speaker 3 (14:32):
God's got someone, he's got somebody.
Instead of cutting somethinglike that out maybe it's cutting
out something that you'rebuying cutting out your spending
because it's easier to cut outthings like Sabbath, cut out
things like rest, cut out thingslike quality time, cut out time
with God Like, oh, I work at6.30 this morning, so I'm not
(14:52):
spending time with God in themorning, and then I'm out late
or whatever because I'm working.
I'm trying to provide this orthat and I'm cutting out things
in my life that give me value,but I'm not cutting out the
spending.
I'm cutting out things in mylife that give me value, but I'm
not cutting out the spending.
I'm making this all veryself-reflective because I don't
like blaming people Like thechurch cuts out this.
That's not my vibe, so I'mgoing to make it self-reflective
(15:14):
.
Speaker 1 (15:14):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (15:15):
Yeah, there's spending I could be cutting out,
but instead I cut out thingsthat are meaningful.
I think that's a huge point.
Speaker 1 (15:20):
Yeah, for sure, for sure, yeah, like do you really
need Netflix?
Speaker 3 (15:24):
I'm on my mom, so or Wi-Fi.
Speaker 1 (15:30):
Well, I mean, I'll say for me I don't know, I had
to cut out Wi-Fi for that reason, because I was trying to save
money.
Speaker 3 (15:33):
So I'm one of the only Cutting out Wi-Fi.
Speaker 1 (15:35):
Yeah, I don't have Wi-Fi.
Speaker 3 (15:36):
That's the desert fathers.
Right there, man, you're.
Speaker 1 (15:39):
That's how you modernize.
Speaker 2 (15:40):
So you're just living off the mobile hotspot.
Speaker 1 (15:43):
Yep Word, or if I have to edit, I go to like the
coffee shop.
Okay, okay, wow, which is moresocial anyways.
Speaker 3 (15:50):
Yeah, I don't see you at my coffee shop though, do
you?
Speaker 1 (15:52):
have Wi-Fi.
Speaker 3 (15:53):
Do I have Wi-Fi?
Speaker 1 (15:54):
You never know, you never know.
Speaker 2 (15:57):
They have a market of Wi-Fi.
It is to work from home.
Speaker 3 (16:01):
Yeah, I got like 40 pastors there a week.
Oh, I'll have to stop then.
It's a good time, yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:08):
I mean, I think about like my budget, and you know
I'm like man, you know there'sonly, you know there's only a
few things I could cut out.
You know, I think cars is, youknow, a classic example of
something that Christians reallyshould take a lot of
theological a, that Christiansreally should take a lot of
theological, a lot of reflectionbefore they purchase a car.
I think cars is kind of aclassic one of like that's a
(16:29):
money sucker.
Speaker 3 (16:30):
Or even just using cars.
Speaker 2 (16:33):
Like, do you need to drive that much?
Yeah, yep, for sure, for sure,do you need that, do you need
that?
So yeah, and I think, like ingeneral, we sanitize, you know,
just the idea of purchasing acar.
You know like we, somebody gota new car, great, we just, you
know, celebrate and then like,oh cool, he got a new car.
But uh, you know, I think likethat's something that maybe we
should.
You know, I've just heard aboutdifferent people and different
(16:53):
Christians who have like kind ofalmost a money accountability
group where, before they makelike a big purchase, something
that's in that range of you know, over a thousand, over 2000,.
You know where they meet withsome Christian brothers,
christian sisters, you know, andthey kind of talk and they're
like, man, what do you guysthink about this?
Like, is this a choice I shouldmake?
This is how it would affect mybudget, this is, you know, kind
(17:14):
of how I would see this livingout, and you know they they
might meet, you know, quarterly,annually, things like that.
That's kind of something Imight want to recapture.
Speaker 3 (17:23):
Yeah, I think that's a great question.
Enough is enough.
Another factor about money isit's easy to look at money as a
thing, but what we're reallytalking about is security in
things, because money is goingto give you the security of, if
anything happens, of my basicneeds, but it's also going to
give you things, and I think,thinking about what are the
(17:45):
things I have?
What kind of car am I trying tobuy?
What kind of groceries am Itrying to buy?
What kind of lifestyle am Itrying to live?
Those are things, and thosethings ultimately reflect our
reliance on.
God Like do we need that to besatisfied?
Because if you can't besatisfied in your life without
those things, then there's yoursatisfaction coming from Christ.
(18:07):
I think that is so much of whatJesus is getting.
After is less about oh, youmake this amount of money.
It's like, no, your lifestyleis not satisfied until you have
this amount of things in yourlife.
And you know I like stuff, so Ihave guitars, I have stuff like
that, like I like stuff.
So it's very I have stuff likethat, I like stuff.
So it's very convicting to meto think about.
Speaker 2 (18:28):
Yeah, there's a passage in James and I think
this James passage really kindof just struck me when I was
just learning more about whatthe Bible says about money, and
I really respect everything thechurch teaches.
I really do love you know GodOwns it All is a wonderful
course.
It kind of teaches you thesedifferent principles.
I love kind of the you know thewheels of different things
people teach.
(18:49):
I think it's only applicable tocertain people, right, and I
think it's helpful, as helpfulas you, like you said we talked
about stewardship, so I reallydo love all these things that
talks about, uh, just like theGod has heard the cry of you
know, just uh, people that thatare, that are being that they
(19:09):
don't have in the amount ofmoney.
And, man, you want to, you wantto pull it up.
I might not have it, um, butman, it really paints this
picture of like, of like.
It's very convicting.
Um, man, maybe we'll cut, maybewe'll cut this here and I'll
get this better.
Speaker 3 (19:26):
I don't have enough service in here to pull up a
passage.
Speaker 1 (19:29):
Yeah, the service in here is pretty bad.
I think it's all the concrete.
Speaker 3 (19:34):
It's all the concrete .
You know, I thought aboutbringing my Bible.
Instead, I brought my iPad.
Speaker 1 (19:42):
I have one right there on the edge of my what
translation you got over thereesv yes, oh, let's go.
Speaker 2 (19:50):
This is gonna be some good stuff I I.
Speaker 3 (19:55):
I think I've told you my thoughts on the esv before
what you don't like it no it's.
It's really good for um.
The language is trying toprovide the one-to-one word.
I think it's a really good,reliable translation when it
comes to 99% of scripture.
I think it does very, veryintentionally poorly when it
(20:16):
comes to the role of women inministry and as Wesleyan pastors
we're very affirming of womenin ministry and the ESV has an
agenda to soften that edge.
Speaker 1 (20:25):
Oh, I am very not, but that's a different
conversation for a different day, I think.
Speaker 3 (20:31):
We'd be Wesleyans.
That's, that's one of our bigthings.
We're the first denomination toordain women, and it's through,
it's through us.
So.
Speaker 2 (20:41):
Yeah, so yeah, I mean like James five, and she's
given this like warning to therich and, uh, you know he's like
challenging the rich, like comenow, you whip you, you rich.
Come now, you rich, weep andhowl for the miseries that are
coming upon you.
And I'm just like, like in thechurch, we just sanitize that,
like, if you like, yeah, youknow, like it's just saying like
(21:03):
there's, there's misery, youknow, coming up upon you,
there's misery if you haveriches and don't trust him right
you're adding stuff there,that's right.
But the bible is just making itclear like money's not a
positive thing, like you know,let's just kind of take a
biblical perspective on it.
But your riches have rotted andyour garments are moth-eaten.
Your gold and silver havecorroded.
Your corrosion will be evidenceagainst you and will eat your
(21:25):
flesh like fire.
You've laid up treasure in thelast days, which is something
you know we didn't think aboutmore.
Like are we just laying uptreasure?
You know when Jesus could comeback in any moment and behold
the wages of the laborers whomowed your fields, which have
kept you back by fraud or cryingout against you.
So I'm thankful, I'm thankful,like I'm thankful.
I'm not a manager, like I ain'tmaking the decisions about how
(21:48):
much people get paid.
But if I was, I'd be like thatverse.
Speaker 3 (21:52):
It would speak to me, yeah yeah, yeah, you know, I
think about the way that moneyis talked about in the Old
Testament versus the NewTestament.
You brought up Proverbs earlierand my theological and biblical
perspective is that theperspective of people
understanding God developed overtime.
And so there are ideas in theOld Testament that do not
(22:13):
reflect in the New Testament,like that passage on beware of
the rich, like beware of thefire and brimstone coming upon
you.
And then Proverbs would be like, oh, money earned over time is
a sense of Godliness, and justlike you're not going to see
that in the New Testament, Ithink it's people's
understanding of money developedinto the future.
I think anybody who's taking apositive view on money, who's a
(22:35):
Christian, is pulling it from afundamentally Old Testament
perspective, where they had lessof an idea of reliance on God,
because when you're in povertyand someone and that you know,
your nation is in poverty andthere are rich among you, the
rich are the ones blessed by Godin their perspective.
Now, that was the perspectiveof the rich young ruler.
That was something I studied alot was they saw him as being
(22:57):
blessed by God.
So when he came and said Jesus,what can I do to inherit the
kingdom of God?
Everyone would have been alreadythinking this guy's already
inherited the kingdom of God.
He has all that he needs.
He's young, he has money, hehas inheritance, he doesn't need
anything.
God's already blessed him.
And what Jesus is saying islike no, my blessing is not that
my blessing is so much moreWill you give that up to receive
(23:17):
my blessing?
And back in that day theyviewed the kingdom of God.
They viewed the blessing of Godas physical, immediate, now
reality.
They don't talk as much abouteternity as we do in today.
Even the New Testament doesn'ttalk about eternity as much as
we think it does.
It does.
But its main focus is what isJesus doing to us today, and the
(23:41):
blessing of money is notsomething that is seen as.
This is what Jesus is giving toyou today in the New Testament,
and no one can change my mindabout that.
You just won't.
Speaker 1 (23:51):
So you're not a prosperity preacher.
Okay, gotcha.
Speaker 3 (23:55):
No, I don't even get paid to preach, oh look at that.
I preach four times a yearroughly Because I do Bible
studies and different sorts ofdiscipleship in the house church
.
Speaker 2 (24:05):
But yeah, and I mean in various Bible studies.
I think like what I've come to,just like, like I just when I
just read what this, what I feellike the scripture saying, what
the heart of scripture saying,I think the thing that I've kind
of landed on is that I feel,like in the in the light of
Jesus, in the light of the newTestament, like money is talked
about pretty negatively.
Like it's talked about, youknow, as the root of all evil,
(24:26):
you know, and just corruption,things like that, just pay your
taxes, etc, you know, just talkabout pretty negatively, just
kind of, yeah, um, but like inwhat you can see from the
different patches, like I feellike at best, you know, it's
kind of seen as a resource to beutilized as best as you
possibly can, with love beingyour primary motivator.
(24:47):
But it's so funny We've gotfriends who joke about trying to
make a lot of money and stufflike that.
But I feel like, in general,scripture doesn't necessarily
have a very positive light on it.
I feel like in general, that'skind of what I've landed on in
my own personal theology andwhen I think about money, when I
think about how I personallyuse money, when I think about
how the.
When I think about how Ipersonally use money, when I
think about how the churchshould in general use money, I
(25:07):
think of it just as like.
I think we just need to view itas a resource.
It is a resource to be used.
I think scripture is very clearabout the it really I do think
scripture is clear that it's theroot of all evil.
I remember I was in a gatheringone time and this guy was like
he's like some of you guys aregoing to go out and make so much
money, you're going to be richand you're going to give that
(25:27):
money to the church.
And he's like the bible justsays that the love of money is
the root of all evil yeah, I youknow I'm making like well over
six figures, but I hate it.
I can't stand it.
Nobody just stumbles into that.
They made intentional choices,that they made intentional
choices that led them to a lifethat they can now have a very
(25:49):
wealthy lifestyle.
I mean, some people trust funds, whatever.
And so he made a hugetheological leap there that
there's not intentional choicesbeing made that bring you to a
place where you have this hugeamount of wealth.
And it was just so funnybecause I was sitting there and
I was like huh, we try to takethis passage that talks about
the love of money being the rootof all evil and make it sound
(26:13):
as if it's just kind of talkingabout a pursuit of greed.
Speaker 3 (26:19):
Yeah, I think Jesus I think we talked about in the
church about stewarding money isthe most important thing you do
.
As long as you steward yourmoney well, when it comes to
just giving money to the church,giving money to other things,
then you're okay with that money.
But I think Jesus challengeseveryone to say I don't think
that most people can stewardtheir money spiritually.
(26:41):
I think Jesus pretty muchdeclares I don't think you have
it in you to have a lot of moneyand follow me.
It's possible.
But I think he challengeseveryone to say to think you
don't have what it takes tospiritually give your all to me
and have a lot of money.
Speaker 1 (26:58):
Yeah so do you guys kind of support the poverty?
Speaker 2 (27:01):
gospel.
We're getting practical here alittle more practical.
Speaker 3 (27:05):
I mean, that's the best word I can come up with is
like poverty gospel yeah no, Ipossibly is not inherently
spiritual, but it gives you theopportunity to trust god, right,
right I I support a couplethings.
Speaker 2 (27:16):
There's a, there's a, so there's a wonderful book.
It's kind of like a small book,um, it's called daring to live
on the edge.
You guys ever seen this one?
No, it's written by.
It's kind of like a small book,um, it's called daring to live
on the edge.
You guys ever seen this?
One no it's written by this guy, lauren lauren cuttingham.
He's a.
He's like the founder of youth,of ywam youth, with a mission.
Um not sure if he's, I'm notsure he's alive I don't really
know I don't know, my parentsjust forced me to read this book
(27:39):
at some point and when I waslike in like eighth grade and I
like didn't, I didn't knowanything.
But but it's just this wonderfulbook that, uh, it just talks
about, you know, it walksthrough some principles about
giving tithing, things like that, and then it talks, you know,
just about story after storyafter story of, you know,
(28:00):
lauren's life and missionariesthat he knew that just stepped
out in faith and they were, youknow, bringing the gospel to
unreached places in the world.
They were, you know, justradically loving people that
were just desperate for Jesusand doing crazy things for God,
and time and time again, likethey would just do it and like
(28:21):
recognize that God was going towork out the finances, and time
and time again he just would, um, and you know it.
Just you read it and you'relike so encouraged, you know,
and I think sometimes, like,like it's just one of those this
is something I do support thatChristians and I would say
churches too, cause I do workfor a church um, do need to just
(28:41):
be a little bit more bold inhow they spend money, how they
approach money and and faithfulthat God is.
He's going to pay the bill.
He's going to pay the bill.
Speaker 3 (28:53):
He's going to provide the way you know and, On top of
that, match your lifestyle withthat Right Want less, want God
more and want things that arenot God less.
Speaker 2 (29:00):
Yeah, and, and so I have a question.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (29:03):
So you said that with these missionaries, they relied
on God for their finances.
Who's financing them?
Speaker 2 (29:14):
Man, I'm digging back to eighth grade book, right,
right, I'm just saying like themoney has to come from somewhere
.
Speaker 3 (29:20):
The money does have to come from somewhere.
Speaker 2 (29:21):
It does have to come from somewhere.
Speaker 3 (29:22):
And honestly with everything I said.
I do know very wonderfulChristians who make a lot of
money, amen.
I know doctors who areChristians who make a lot of
money.
And if you're a doctor, youknow I want to get into this to
help people you know you'remaking six figures no matter
what you do and there's a risk,there's a huge risk.
I wish more Christians wouldknow for their soul that hey, if
(29:46):
you're taking this career path,you know you're going to make a
lot of money.
You need to steward your soulin order to do what you think
you need to do there, and it'smore than possible.
I know wonderful Christians andthey give so much to
missionaries.
They give so much to the churchand they steward their life
well.
But that's a challenge still,because they don't have any
needs or dependencies at all.
(30:07):
So they need to really trustGod, they really need to know
God and make that the biggestpriority in their life.
Speaker 2 (30:14):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (30:15):
The more money you have, the more you need to be
giving to God.
Not your money, giving yourlife to God, yeah.
Speaker 2 (30:21):
Yeah, so and what do I support?
Like, practically, you know,people aren't coming to me for
financial advice.
Speaker 3 (30:27):
No they're not coming to me.
That's why I'm here.
Yeah, we're pastors, so we'renot making a lot of money.
Speaker 2 (30:33):
I tell people all the time like, hey, I'm down to go
through your Excel sheet withyou.
So many people don't even havean Excel sheet.
Practically they don't evenhave.
You know, money comes in, moneycomes out checking account,
that's what than that.
You know I, I, I have a littlebit of a reputation that, like,
I use every dollar, I like it.
(30:53):
It's great, I track everyexpense.
You know like and and it'shelpful for me.
Um, and so, practically likeyou know, if more people were
asking me for advice, you knowif, if I had more opportunities
you know I really do.
You know, just, I want tosupport just a theology that
says, you know, at best, moneyis a resource.
(31:14):
How can you live at the lowestkind of possible means that you
would still feel, you know, likethis is the life that God is
calling you to right.
So I bought a house at theright time.
I'm so thankful that I bought ahouse at the right time.
I'm so thankful that I bought ahouse at the right time and it
is in the perfect part of GrandRapids where I'm like.
(31:35):
It has given me opportunitiesto do enough.
Ministry Ronson and I used tolive together.
We had people over our house.
It wasn't.
It's not big but it is.
It has been the right choicethat maybe I like there were
times within the past four yearsmaybe I could have gotten
something bigger, hypothetically, or but what do I support?
(31:56):
Like, I support the idea oftrying to live at kind of the
lower, you know, kind of whereyou can, you know, have what you
need to do, ministry to supportyour family, you know, have a
place to sit.
You know like, like, havedishes, all that stuff, but just
at best see money as a resourcethat you can best use to do
good, um, in the world aroundyou.
(32:18):
And currently, you know I'mjust making ends meet.
I got all the surprise saywe're just making ends meet, um,
but I want you know Christiansto to be bold and to really
trust God that he is going toprovide in miraculous ways If
you feel called to be amissionary, if you feel called
(32:39):
to take out a step in faithwhere maybe you're going to do a
pay decrease, to talk Honestly,my wife did that recently and
we were like, okay, took a paydecrease.
Yeah, change jobs.
Oh, okay, I thought Sorry.
Speaker 1 (32:51):
Vol decrease.
Speaker 3 (32:52):
Yeah, change jobs.
Oh, okay, I thought Sorry,voluntarily got paid a lot, I
made too much Sorry.
Speaker 2 (32:57):
Yeah so.
Speaker 3 (32:58):
She's faster as well.
Speaker 2 (33:00):
Yeah, and so we did that.
You know, like change the job,stepping out into a different
role, kind of change some thingsin my life expecting kids.
So it's exciting we're my lifeexpecting kids so we're excited.
Speaker 3 (33:11):
It's exciting we're expecting twins.
Man, it's, it's amazing.
Yeah, a lot of money that goes.
You don't want to focus onmoney all the time, but then
you're having twins and you'relike how am I supposed to not
focus on money all the time?
Speaker 2 (33:20):
yeah, right and uh.
So there were a lot of thingsthat kind of just went into our
life decisions, jobs and whereshe was feeling called and
things like that.
Um, and like that's in general,kind of the idea that I support
that.
You know, have your Excel sheet, view money as a resource.
Try to live as low as you can.
(33:40):
Like I don't necessarilysupport, you know, new cars
because people will say like, oh, I can buy a new car and it's,
I'm not going to fix it, right,and if you do the math, it's
just not true.
Like, if you do the math, it'sjust not true.
Like, like, if you do the math,it actually doesn't necessarily
math out that if you, you know,spend all this money on a new
car that you're going to, whatyou're actually paying for is
kind of a peace of mind, youknow essentially.
(34:01):
Um and so, and so I kind of, youknow, have these different
personal things that I wouldkind of believe in.
Like you know, I was, like youknow, thinking about things like
in general I love camping,Right, and so people would be
like, oh well, christian, go buya camper.
I'm like, no, I'll probablystick to a tent, you know, cause
I think I can enjoy life in atent.
I don't need a camper, like youknow.
(34:26):
Like I'm good, I'm good withthe tent.
Like you know, I don't need awith just this.
Are you good with just this?
And just kind of live your lifethat way.
And when you have opportunitiesto radically give, like for me
personally, like wheneversomebody asks me to give, I'm
going to give them something.
I don't apply that to likepeople on the street and that's
like that's kind of Holy Spiritled.
(34:46):
But when my college asked me togive to the scholarship fund,
I'm like I'll give them a littlesomething.
You know, if, if somebody youknow comes up to me and they're
like, hey, I'm funding, you know, you know you get everything
right.
You get mission strips, openhouses, all this stuff, I'm like
I'm gonna give a littlesomething.
You know, I kind I already paida lot to my school.
(35:07):
I give them a small amount, butI'm going to give them every
single time they write me.
Speaker 3 (35:11):
Are you serious?
You're giving when your schoolwrites you?
Of course that's insane.
I'm all for being generous, butif IWU asked me for anything, I
gave you.
So much.
Speaker 2 (35:21):
They took the work out to write me a letter.
Where did?
Speaker 3 (35:23):
you guys go to school .
We went to Houghton.
Speaker 1 (35:26):
Yeah, I went to Houghton College.
Speaker 2 (35:28):
Up in the UP.
So the school I went to isactually in Houghton, New York.
It's actually closer thanHoughton in the UP.
Speaker 3 (35:36):
The mileage is closer .
Speaker 2 (35:38):
The mileage is actually closer.
I love saying that becausepeople will.
I'll be at the movies.
I'll be wearing like a you knowa Houghton shirt.
I'll be walking around withpeople and people are like H and
people of course get verydisappointed and I'm like nobody
knows Houghton around here, butit was.
It's a small Christian school,very similar in comparison to
like a cornerstone or or youknow a Christian school uh, here
(35:59):
in Grand Rapids, and I loved it.
It was great.
Speaker 3 (36:01):
Yeah, yeah, I went to Indiana, wesleyan.
Um yeah, great, great school aswell.
It's like Houghton, but threetimes the size and, yeah, three
times cooler, and I'm kidding,they're both wesleyan colleges.
Wesleyan church has fivecolleges and I was the biggest
one and houghton's the one thatwants to be the best this is.
This is why, houghton people,we just stay quiet I'm trying to
(36:26):
talk smack, I have no, I haveno college beef at this point in
my life yeah, so, but yeah, um,but just the practical aspects.
Of practical aspects, I thinkthe more money that you make in
your life, every pay, raise,every, whatever it is.
I think you really need toevaluate your life and say am I
stewarding my faith?
(36:47):
Well, um, am I depending on God?
Am I going back to God?
Am I transforming my life to beone that is marked by the love
of Christ?
Because the more you make Jesusheavily suggests, the less you
will do that.
Speaker 1 (37:03):
But is there a chance that you would?
Isn't there a way you can notbecome complacent, even if
you're making more money?
Speaker 3 (37:10):
Of course, but I think Jesus is suggesting that
that's really difficult.
So the only thing is I'm sayingis, if you're making a lot of
money, think about that.
Jesus suggests that this isgoing to be nearly impossible.
Do you have what it takes to dosomething?
Nearly impossible.
Speaker 1 (37:24):
Yeah, and I also wonder what is considered being
rich, because if you take theaverage, American take the
average American compared to therest of the world, we're pretty
rich.
Speaker 3 (37:37):
Well, I don't.
I never liked that comparisonbecause, yeah, take the average
comparison next to the rest ofthe world.
They're not paying the sameamount for anything in the rest
of the world.
So, it really goes to yourcontext.
Cause if you're like, oh, youknow you're making, you goes to
your context.
Because if you're like, oh, youknow you're making, you know 40
000 or 50 000 a year, um, inyour you know you're considered
rich for the world but just likeyou know, in america, I feel
(37:58):
like I'm just above poverty andbeing just above poverty,
telling someone who's barelyabove that, oh, you're pretty
much rich, don't complain yeah,that's true, that's that's just
not true.
The cheapest apartment I've everseen in town here was $900 a
month, like there's.
I've never seen anything belowthat.
So it's like don't tell someonewho's making above the brink of
(38:18):
poverty that they're richbecause you know, I feel like,
yeah, I mean, there's a wholebunch of like interpretation,
right?
Midwest right.
If you, if you're living out onthe west coast or on the east
coast or something like 50,000is absolute poverty, like you're
living out on the West coast oron the East coast or something
like 50,000 is absolute poverty.
Like you're not gettinganything, like you can't live in
a house.
You don't have house.
You have, like an apartment aquarter of the size of this one.
Speaker 1 (38:39):
So much for me.
We move into New Hampshire.
Speaker 3 (38:42):
Are you moving to New Hampshire?
Speaker 1 (38:43):
I wanted to, but not anymore.
Speaker 3 (38:45):
Yeah, like the Midwest is comfortable.
I mean it's expensive, right,it's expensive everywhere and
that's going up, regardless ofwhat political persuasion you
believe in is going up andthat's just a reality we have to
accept.
Speaker 1 (39:00):
I think Michigan's economy will hold on tight,
though, because we're right nextto Canada, so trading is easier
.
We have the big lakes, we canship things.
Speaker 3 (39:08):
I mean.
I know nothing about this yeah,I don't go too deep in that.
Speaker 2 (39:13):
we're here no, we can .
Speaker 3 (39:14):
We can go political for a second, I can give you
political opinions that I have alot of, but my my background
and experience and professionwould not suggest that I'm an
expert in that, so I'm not goingto pretend to be an expert in
it, oh, I was going to saybecause we kind of you are on
the unhinged christian podcast.
Speaker 1 (39:31):
So because I I we did kind of cover your guys's
radical ideas of money so wecould move on to something else.
Or we can just call it quitsgot a nice 40 minutes in your
your call.
Speaker 3 (39:42):
I feel like.
I feel like christian, and Idid a very good job at
explaining what we believed, andI don't think I'm gonna say
anything additionally.
I'm just gonna keep going incircles.
Speaker 1 (39:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (39:52):
If you let me go for 40 minutes, I'll say the same
stuff in different ways for 40more minutes, right?
Speaker 1 (39:56):
I think I hit it.
Yeah, we don't need to go incircles.
If you guys are good and don'twant to talk about anything else
, we can call it good and I'mhaving fun.
Speaker 3 (40:06):
I'm okay with talking about something else, but Sure,
yeah, let's hit one more.
Speaker 2 (40:11):
Ronson, you're on the podcast, okay.
Speaker 1 (40:13):
You're here, okay, well, you are too.
Speaker 2 (40:17):
Yeah, and this is Christmas podcast now yeah, we
see money very similar where youknow we politics we don't
necessarily see exactly the sameway.
So so you're here, might aswell just answer like maybe how
does money inform kind of your,your political leanings or just
kind of things like that, orjust some of your perspectives
(40:38):
on money?
Um, it's been tough for me tokind of think about sometimes,
you know, because I think, uh,well, I just think both
political parties, I thinkgovernment just gets money wrong
in general it it's just sininstitutionalized.
But he shook his head, yeah.
Speaker 3 (40:56):
At the end of the day , I am for more wealth
distribution and more moneydistribution.
Speaker 1 (41:04):
Is that a nice way of saying socialism?
Speaker 3 (41:06):
Yeah, no, you know, if the trickle-down works, we'll
let the trickle-down work, butit's proven for the last century
that it fundamentally does notwork.
Yeah, we're still waiting.
If the trickle-down works,we'll let the trickle-down work,
but it's proven for the lastcentury that it fundamentally
does not work.
We're still waiting to see atrickle-down.
So you know, for me I'm likesomeone's, like, oh well, the
trickle-down actually worksreally well.
I'm like, bet, let's do thatWait, explain trickle-down.
Like putting the money more ontop, giving billionaires more
tax breaks, breaks so that theycan expand their business, to
(41:29):
allow money to go down to theeveryday person.
And we just fundamentally knowthat's not how it happens.
You're seeing CEOs in everysingle company large companies.
Speaker 1 (41:41):
I'm not talking about small business, every single
large company.
Speaker 3 (41:44):
Their margins of the top are getting bigger and
bigger and bigger and they'remaking more and more money.
Now the bottom is making justas much or less than they were
before, while prices ofeverything go up.
Speaker 2 (41:54):
Yeah, and so fair enough.
Like I, definitely, like youknow, I don't necessarily like
hold my political leanings, youknow, with a, you know love for
the idea of trickling downeconomics or things like that.
But at the end of the day,here's here's where we might
actually disagree a little bit,is I, because I think that in
general, like you know, we, Ibelieve that one person the CEO,
(42:16):
the board, et cetera is morelikely to make wise choices with
their money than aninstitutionalized government.
Speaker 1 (42:24):
Yeah, I would agree with that.
Speaker 2 (42:26):
And so, but it's.
But I think the jury, I wouldsay you know, not the political
parties would say but I wouldsay the jury is out on that.
But I lean, you know, towardsthe faith.
I have more faith in a board,10 people, et cetera, and I use
the example of Chick-fil-A.
Right, like, chick-fil-a is awonderful organization.
I love Chick-fil-A, I workedthere for a long time and they
(42:49):
do wonderful things with theirmoney.
I mean chick-fil-a, I workedthere for a long time and and
they do wonderful things withtheir money I mean, they
literally give so much of itaway.
Speaker 3 (42:54):
You know right, and they treat their employees very
well.
They treat the employees verywell and their employees get
paid well their employees getpaid very well.
Speaker 2 (42:58):
It scales up very nicely like they're getting
benefits even at like a localexactly, but so maybe I just
have too much faith because it'sa vast majority of large
businesses are not even close toright exactly no car.
Speaker 3 (43:10):
Look at car companies like Ford if you look at
Starbucks, you're seeing thesecompanies where the CEOs are
making billions now.
Speaker 2 (43:16):
Yeah, my personal experience has never allowed me
to give that up.
I have so much faith.
Maybe an evangelist is going tocome across, the CEO of the car
company you mentioned.
Speaker 1 (43:29):
Would we be better off to put our faith in the
government?
I?
Speaker 3 (43:33):
think we tried this political system as much as we
can, and it's not working forthe poorer have never been more
poor.
The middle class has never beenpoor, more poor.
The rich has never been richer,and that's a fact.
You can't debate that, people.
There are more billionaires whoexist now than there ever have
been ever.
You, you can't debate that.
So there is this amount ofmoney in the world.
Speaker 2 (43:55):
It's just going up, it's not going down, and so Well
, people are going to, of course, you know, point to the fact
that there's opportunity, youknow, and then there's more
opportunity.
Speaker 1 (44:05):
There's more opportunity for me to become a
billionaire.
Speaker 2 (44:07):
And we use the example of doordash right.
Like I, as long as you got aphone and a car and an internet
connection, you can make you canmake?
Speaker 3 (44:15):
you can make fifty thousand dollars an hour.
Speaker 2 (44:17):
I mean, you know that's what all the ads say.
Yeah, so, and people will pointto the opportunity.
You know I mentioned thosethree.
Things are not easy, like ifyou're poor, like having a car,
internet connection, phone, etc.
Speaker 3 (44:29):
Like those things are not easy having a car and if
everybody did it for deliveryservice right use for delivery
service, etc.
Speaker 2 (44:35):
All that stuff.
Um, that's an interesting worldwe live in, like the fact that
like people are growing up in aworld now where there is a sort
of opportunity, where you knowyou can have just a few things
and live and make enough moneyto to survive, but for me I I am
nowhere close to the opinionthat we should allow the system
(44:56):
to exist on the opportunity thatI can become incredibly wealthy
.
Speaker 3 (45:00):
I would rather a system that inherently makes us
all.
The entry point is way easierfor anybody across the board who
doesn't have the resources.
So, personally, I won't say howI'm voting, but when I vote,
what I'm thinking about is howis this going to impact the most
vulnerable people?
What party is going to have agreater chance of influencing
the poorest of the poor, ofreaching people who don't have
(45:23):
the resources that I have?
I'm not voting for myselfbecause I have everything I need
.
I don't need the governmentsupport.
Who I believe the governmentneeds to support is people who
did not get to grow up in theway I got to grow up.
The people who don't haveresources.
So I'm going to vote for theparty that I believe is going to
bring more resources for thatdemographic of people.
And, fundamentally, you knowwho I voted for in the last
(45:45):
election.
Speaker 2 (45:46):
I mean, this one was a tough one for me.
It was a tough one for me.
It was a tough one, I wasprobably back and forth, you
know.
Yeah, I was back and forth upuntil 20 days before, and then I
just had to just kind of thinkabout a couple of different
things that would affect me anddifferent people and just some
things like that.
And of course, you know, moneyis not maybe the biggest thing
(46:12):
that I'm necessarily alwaysthink about when I'm voting.
I mean, we actually can votewith our money, which is
something that Christians don'ttalk about enough, because they
vote.
You know, kind of one issue oncertain things like that, but
another way you could vote isjust by giving money.
Speaker 3 (46:21):
Another way you can vote is giving a million dollars
away to everyone who votes forTrump, Like must it?
Did he do that?
Speaker 2 (46:34):
He did give money away to people and he created a
raffle in pennsylvania.
That's crazy.
Speaker 3 (46:36):
I had no idea he did that.
That's.
That's pretty insane.
You can vote with your money.
That hasn't.
That hasn't been debunkedthat's real no that's real.
He gave his check to someone.
That's wild yeah, I meanthere's more in that you can go,
but yeah so.
Speaker 2 (46:44):
So here's a random thing, but, um, another reason
why I just really I I put moretrust in people than the
government kind of distributionis because I remember when I was
in high school, the owneroperator of the Chick-fil-A
where I worked at was verytransparent with a few money
practices of the organizationand one of the things that he
(47:06):
was just kind of open and honestabout was, you know, we maybe
had like three mid-levelmanagers, you know, maybe like a
kitchen manager, front managerand a marketing manager, and he
was very honest that as theowner, he was never going to
take home or take home profits.
That was more than three timesuh, that was more than what the
three of them were makingcombined.
Speaker 3 (47:27):
Yeah, and so it was a very, very transparent business
practice, and if that was thebusiness model of, say, like
Ford, the owner of Ford wouldn'tbe making like $60 million a
year or whatever he's making,while their lower managers are
making like 50 to 70 grand.
Like that just wouldn't be thecase.
Speaker 2 (47:45):
Right, right.
And so I remember, like in highschool, just kind of hearing,
hearing that kind of tuckingthat away and being like man,
that's a really honorablebusiness practice, that's
incredibly honorable, and ifthat was across the board, I
would be a hundred percent forthat.
Speaker 3 (47:57):
That would be the best.
But you know people are like oh, socialism doesn't work.
But then this, this is working,though you know it might be
working for the honesty ofChristian's manager at.
Chick-fil-a, but that's notworking across the board.
Speaker 1 (48:08):
Right, but I think one of the other problems is
when you tax the billionairesand you put certain people on
certain levels of income, onwelfare or aid they have to
qualify for it Right.
So, it takes away theirincentive to improve their life,
and then they just stay relyingon the government.
Speaker 2 (48:31):
I mean it's a start.
It is a start and I, Ipersonally, you know people need
to rely on the government.
Speaker 3 (48:37):
There are people with fundamental disability like
look at homelessness.
Homelessness, mental health anddisabilities is skyrocketed in
homelessness and those peopleneed to rely on something.
Speaker 1 (48:48):
They can't Right.
Right, I'm not saying, but I'msaying for those, like in
between, people that could makeit out, right now there's no
incentive to do that becausethey say it's like 40 grand's
the limit.
If they make 41 grand, all of asudden it's like well, you're,
you're out of our bracket, so wecan't help you anymore, right
and I mean I when every whatyou're saying is 100 true, that
too, I think it is.
Speaker 2 (49:09):
It might be lower than 40, yeah I.
I think it's close to right,that was just a number that I
was guessing well, and I, andand because I personally see
this like, without getting intohuge detail, you know someone,
someone in my close family, youknow, lives in this dynamic of
like.
I see the benefit that you knowkind of the governmental
program is able to offer you,you know, but it does limit
their opportunity.
You know where, if they were totake, you know, step one, two,
(49:31):
three, four that they would ingeneral be kind of excited for.
That would kind of bring themto a place in their life where
maybe they're working full timeet cetera, things like that,
they would start to lose thisand and I've seen this dynamic
where they can't do it, theycan't take that step because
they would lose.
You know what the government is.
(49:52):
I'm so grateful that thegovernment is providing and
giving them to pursue theirlifestyle.
So I go back and forth withthis because I see it, you know,
and I know that, like man, notevery instance is the same, not
every circumstance is the same.
It's different for every person.
Speaker 3 (50:06):
For me.
I don't go back and forth inany way.
I think there needs to be vastimprovements on the public
access.
Speaker 2 (50:13):
We just need to write the law better.
Yeah, there needs to be vastimprovements on public access to
healthcare.
Speaker 3 (50:17):
I think, fundamentally, the poorest
people in this country are notgetting good healthcare.
They're relying on soupkitchens and the goodness of
people who are creating theseorganizations to provide for
their basic needs.
While we can provide for basicneeds, we're just choosing not
to.
I have a friend who works at acoffee shop.
They're a part-time baristalike 20, 30 hours a week, and
(50:42):
they got their Medicaid.
Is it Medicare or Medicaid?
One of them is for senior.
I think it's Medicare.
Yeah, I don't know thedifference, but anyways, they
got their health insurancedenied by the government because
they made too much money lastyear and they're working 20 to
30 hours a week at a coffee shop.
Speaker 2 (50:58):
We need to write the law, but you're making too much
money to receive healthcare.
Speaker 3 (51:01):
You have to buy your own.
It like what.
They're part-time in the coffeeshop.
They can barely swing rent yeahyeah, and do you?
Speaker 2 (51:10):
do you know like, like was shopping around for
health care easy for them?
Is that challenge?
Speaker 3 (51:14):
I mean it's, it's not hard, but it's like a hundred
or plus dollars a month, sure,if you're of good health, if you
have any pre-existingconditions or anything that you
rely on medication for, it'sgoing to be more, and so you
know it well.
Hopefully you're healthy andhave an additional hundred or so
dollars a month to spend.
It's not hard to get to pay forhealthcare, but I mean to get
it, but it is expensive, it's anexpense of money you don't have
(51:37):
Right right and the cheaperplans.
Speaker 2 (51:39):
They don't really do as much for you.
Speaker 3 (51:40):
When we could have a system that provides that, that
for people.
You know I am 100% foruniversal health, universal
health care in this country.
Speaker 1 (51:49):
I would be, too, if I didn't believe that the
government was inherently evil.
Speaker 3 (51:53):
I would be too.
The government is absolutelyinherently evil.
Speaker 2 (51:55):
I would be too, if our doctors wouldn't just quit
and up and leave because they'regetting paid less money.
Speaker 3 (52:00):
See the doctors might you know, I'm not afraid of
doctors quitting.
They're all making six figures.
Speaker 2 (52:04):
I'm not afraid of them somebody's gonna hey,
somebody's gonna step up.
It might not.
They might not be as good.
Speaker 3 (52:10):
I can't make four hundred thousand dollars a year
anymore I'm quitting, andsomeone's like oh, I can make
two hundred thousand dollars ayear to be a doctor.
Speaker 1 (52:15):
Sure, let's do it yeah, but then with a lack of
doctors they might lower the thequalifications to become one
sure right, which then the?
Health.
Healthcare is just as bad ifyou have terrible doctors.
Speaker 3 (52:28):
It might not be.
Just a lot of the basichealthcare people need does not
take the full qualifications adoctor may have.
You know, like if you just needsomething really, really basic,
you're still paying like $300for a doctor.
I had like a toenail that wassuper ingrown.
It was very, very painful.
I had to get that toenail justlifted out and removed.
(52:53):
They numbed it, they lifted itout, they cut it.
It was very painful but it wascompletely numbed Pretty much a
job of scissors $300.
Speaker 2 (52:57):
Not a specialist.
This is a physician.
Speaker 3 (52:59):
This is a family doctor cutting out $300 out the
door.
It took him five minutes andit's like that seems unnecessary
.
Speaker 1 (53:05):
I had to have glass taken out of my toe and it was
three grand.
Yeah, yeah Three grand and ittook probably 20 minutes.
Speaker 3 (53:13):
Well, you need the special occasions, just like.
They just have the equipmentand like.
So all I'm saying is a lot of alot of care that could be done
does not need the level ofspecialization that doctors have
.
We need that specialization.
My stepfather is a nephrologist.
He does a kidney doctor.
We need people like thatfundamentally for those issues,
(53:35):
but at the same time, there arebetter ways to do healthcare.
It's happening all over theworld.
We're just closing our ears andpretending like it's not
happening.
All over the world it is.
Other people are not concernedabout healthcare in different
countries in the world.
Other people are not concernedabout going broke if you get a
disease, if you break your arm,whatever.
That's where I think thecountry needs to store better
money in.
Yeah, I'm not an expert in that, though Neither am I.
(54:01):
This whole section.
We're pastors.
These are opinions formed byour own personal research.
I'm not professional.
I'm not going to claim to be.
Speaker 2 (54:12):
Yeah, and I'm thankful that the specialist I
saw last week was incentivizedto whatever incentivized that
specialist to be a part of thatfield, whether that was money or
not.
Yeah, it helped me and itprovided me a lot of relief.
And if that person was notthere at that time and that
place and wasn't trained the waythey were, I could be in a lot
of pain right now.
Speaker 3 (54:32):
But you know, doctors aren't the ones who are like.
You're like oh, doctors getpaid less money.
Not really.
What we're looking at is bigpharma and owners of hospitals
and stuff who are makingbillions.
And yeah, they might be makingmillions over a few years if
you're a doctor, but if you're ahigher up in the hospital, if
you are in big pharma sellingmedication that takes pennies
for hundreds of dollars to poorpeople who need it, that's the
(54:55):
biggest part of the question.
That needs to come way down.
Speaker 1 (55:00):
I also think that part of the problem with big
pharma is our food.
Speaker 3 (55:04):
Oh, for sure so.
Speaker 1 (55:05):
I think they're in cahoots together, that's just my
conspiracy theory and I thinkthat food is meant to make us
fat, sick and nearly dead, sothat we rely on Big Pharma.
Speaker 3 (55:18):
I mean, that was my theory that the roads were so
bad in Michigan, because all thecars were made here.
If the roads stayed really badthen the cars would get beaten
up.
Speaker 1 (55:28):
But Whitmer fixed our roads.
Speaker 3 (55:29):
So you know what, there we go.
Speaker 1 (55:31):
Well, she didn't around here.
Speaker 3 (55:32):
No, she did.
That's why I can't get anywhere.
It takes me 30 minutes to gethome because every single road
in my exit is closed.
Speaker 2 (55:38):
They're doing a lot of work right now.
Speaker 3 (55:39):
They're doing a lot of work and the highway to get
over here is the nicest highwayin town.
Speaker 1 (55:43):
Which one did you take?
I-96?
Yeah, that one is nice 96 is sonice.
Speaker 3 (55:47):
131 is beaten up, but they worked on it for like
three months.
So they're working on the roads.
They're doing their best.
Speaker 1 (55:54):
They're doing good, Just taking their time which is
fine Good things take time.
Yeah, anyway, we'll end there,but I just want to know what
translation of the Bible do youread?
Speaker 3 (56:08):
Ah, so I am.
If I am preaching, I am doingan Ivy.
If I am leading a Bible studywith uh more discovery base, I'm
doing NLT.
Um.
If it's more of a deep dive,I'm doing an IB.
Or uh NRSV, um, because,because I think NIV is that
(56:29):
perfect middle ground ofunderstandability to
word-for-word translation,because what you need from your
translation is to comprehend thewords.
If it is not as close to theGreek as it was, then you're
understanding it more and theidea of scripture is to
understand it.
And it might not be the exactword for word from the Greek,
(56:49):
but if you can't understand thatas much, then it's not a
translation that's working foryou.
And I understand the dynamicsof translation and I get that
opinion primarily from theclassic IBS book how to Get the
Most from how to Read the Biblefor All Its Work.
How to Read the Bible for AllIts Work, great book that book
heavily suggests that the NIV isone of the translations you
(57:12):
should be reading for preaching,for biblical study, because it
has that really good middleground.
And again, I don't like the ESV, because not because it's a bad
translation overall it is alittle cardboard because it's a
closer one to one.
Every word is closer to theGreek, word for word.
But our language doesn't lineup with Greek at all and so it
makes a very clunky read, a hardto understand read.
Speaker 2 (57:34):
And, if I can, just I got a funny point on that.
Speaker 3 (57:37):
Oh, if I can just be so direct, I think the ESV is
intentionally sexist and that ispublic information.
You can research that it's froma board who wants to diminish
the role of women in ministryand they've changed words, you
know, like Phoebe to, instead ofbeing Paul's partner in
ministry, she is a helper atthat church.
There's a lot of examples likethat.
(57:58):
You can.
You can look it up yourself.
You know.
Look up ESV, women in ministrycontroversy.
You'll get article afterarticle, video after video.
You don't need my help to dothat and I take issue with that
because I am an advocate forwomen in all levels of
leadership in the churchministry.
The Wesleyan church, ourdirector, superintendent, was a
woman for a long time.
So for for for me, for Kristenlike that is really important,
(58:20):
and so that's the reason I don'tlike the ESV of the translation
itself.
Totally cool with it.
I had more than one ESV in myhouse.
Um, I just don't like it sofunny story about the esv.
Speaker 2 (58:30):
The esv has a wonderful reader's bible, um,
and I've like searched on google, I've like tried to search
around and you know, so thereader's bible doesn't have like
the verse, uh, notes, uh, soit'll just like maybe have like
chapter and, and so it doesn'thave the verse.
And so one of the only biblesthat I was able to find that was
pretty affordable, uh, that hada really nice reader's edition,
(58:50):
was the esv I will say the esvhas the best branding of oh they
have great branding, greattranslation, who is even a
quarter as much whoever's doingtheir marketing is just amazing.
Speaker 3 (59:00):
It's wonderful someone gave me this gift.
It was like this big collectionseries of an esv.
It was like the Bible broken upin individual books and all the
print.
Speaker 2 (59:10):
It's so beautiful.
They had the beautiful cover,yeah.
Speaker 3 (59:13):
And it's wonderful and it's an ESV, so I don't read
it, but it's wonderful becausethe ESV team if you look up like
nice leather-bound Bibles withcool prints and stuff.
Oh, they're beautiful, they'rebeautiful.
Speaker 2 (59:27):
They're catching up, they're catching up, they're
catching up.
Speaker 3 (59:28):
I have some good NIVs , some good NLTs, but they don't
look as nice as a nice ESV.
Speaker 2 (59:33):
Yeah.
I have an ESV study Bible fromlike 10 years ago, that's still
just.
This Bible looks so much coolerthan all the other ones.
So when I am just trying to domore long reading, like if I'm
trying to read for a moreextensive time, I actually do
turn to the esv because I'mlooking for that bible that
doesn't break it up, always withthe verse numbers, sure.
And then, um, my, I'vediscovered I actually am using
(59:54):
the niv a little bit morerecently, because I've just
noticed I'm like when I'm tryingto remember a verse, all the
little verses that I'vememorized, they're all in niv,
yeah, and I'm just like.
Oh, sometimes I'm like the verseI was thinking of if I just
looked it up in niv, I wouldhave gotten there so much
quicker.
Um, and because the nlt justchanged something, it's not
exactly the song I learned as akid and so you know, the niv
(01:00:15):
just kind of gets me really goodthere my only problem with the
current niv translation, um, isthat they use the word
forbearance instead of patiencein uh, the fruit of the spirit,
and love, joy, peace, patience,kindness.
Speaker 3 (01:00:30):
You got bored over there.
They use love, joy, peace,forbearance, kindness, and I'm
like I don't know whatforbearance is.
Why did you choose?
Speaker 2 (01:00:36):
this.
Pastors will preach on that.
Pastors will preach on that.
Speaker 3 (01:00:39):
Patience was great.
I loved patience.
I know what that qualm with thecurrent and I like patience
better.
Speaker 1 (01:00:50):
I also read from the message quite a bit.
Speaker 3 (01:00:52):
Again, I do.
Oh, the message is great.
Grow up.
The message is great because itis communicating the most
understandable text.
It is for people who do notknow scripture.
They are getting scripture putin their words.
We are growing up withscripture all around us and we
have this ear for what scripturemeans.
(01:01:13):
We understand these words.
We understand the sentencestructure because we were
immersed from it when we wereyoung.
If you don't have that, it'sweird and foreign.
Speaker 1 (01:01:21):
Yeah that's true Even the.
Speaker 3 (01:01:22):
NIV sounds uncomfortable because that's not
how we talk the message.
Eugene Peterson did a beautifuljob.
Speaker 1 (01:01:28):
He did a great job, yeah, and he even calls it a
paraphrase.
He does say paraphrase Becauseit is a paraphrase.
Speaker 3 (01:01:34):
But for me he calls that to water down people who
are opposed to it, becauseparaphrase is a style of
translation.
The NLT is a paraphrase style.
That means phrase for phrase,like the fruit of the spirit is
love peace, patience, kindness.
They're going to take thatphrase from Greek and translate
it where a more rigidtranslation like the ESV is
going to take the translatefruit, translate of translate to
(01:01:55):
the same word.
So yeah, it's a paraphrase, butparaphrase is a style of
translation, so I don't know, oh, he likes it.
Speaker 2 (01:02:03):
He likes the message.
Speaker 1 (01:02:04):
He likes it, I just think that he adds a little bit
sometimes.
Speaker 3 (01:02:07):
Everybody adds a little bit sometimes.
I think that's we're in denialof that.
When it comes to translations,they all have a bias, because
every translation of the Bibleis being created by people
funding that there are churches,there are networks, there are
organizations who are givingmoney for this translation to
happen.
Speaker 1 (01:02:24):
Who funds the ESV?
Is it the Calvinists?
Speaker 3 (01:02:28):
Oh yeah, crc is a big part of that.
Baptist is a big part of that.
That makes sense.
Yeah, that's a huge influencein the funding of the.
If you look at the board of theprimary funders of the ESV,
they're all super hard reformbros and that's okay.
They can have their translation.
They need to have a translation, I translation, they need to
(01:02:54):
have a translation.
I know some great, super hardreform grows.
We live in West Michigan, so I'mjust saying I don't prefer that
.
So every Bible translation hasa bias.
Hopefully that bias is asminimal as possible, but they
all have people who are givingthem money.
And if you have a bunch ofWesleyans giving money to a
translation of a Bible, youbetter hope that your treatment
of language around women isfavorable, right, so they're not
going to make the translationsay something about women.
It doesn't.
You know, they might make itlike stand out like Phoebe, a
(01:03:16):
helper, a helper and formercoworker and pastor of this
church, right, you know, insteadof just saying a person who was
there at that church, stufflike that.
Anyways, that's not really evenmy expertise either.
Speaker 2 (01:03:29):
Well, I do got to say , like there are some.
If you look this up, there aresome nice new Bibles.
These days it's filament.
I got a filament Bible.
I didn't even know this, but,like you, open up the front page
and, like you, it's got like aQR code that you like link to
your phone, downloads, an appand it is like an amazing study
(01:03:50):
resource like they're.
Speaker 3 (01:03:51):
Just with the technology we got today, it's
getting good I think you can youcan go to the page I have to
have my phone out while I'mreading the bible.
Speaker 2 (01:03:57):
It's inherently five points so you can go to the page
.
Like.
The page at the top is like aqr, but it doesn't look like a
qr, like the number just has alittle carrot next to it.
It'll recognize it and thenit'll like give you resources on
it.
Speaker 3 (01:04:12):
It's really cool.
I do like carrots.
Speaker 2 (01:04:13):
Yeah, me too, and I have found NRSV.
They do great study Bibles.
Yeah, nrsv is great, very goodstudy Bibles.
Speaker 3 (01:04:21):
That is the ESV for people who don't like the ESV.
Honestly ESV for people whodon't like the ESV, Honestly one
of these days.
Speaker 2 (01:04:28):
I want to go back to one of those teen study Bibles
where you're reading it and thenall of a sudden, halfway
through you're reading John,it's got a story about some
testimony from this guy, matt.
It just breaks up the sectionand then all of a sudden it's
like and this reminds me of myfriend Matt, who this happened
to him, yada, yada yada.
My friend Matt, who hashappened to him?
Yada, yada yada.
Those Bibles were great.
I'm going to get one of thoseagain.
Speaker 3 (01:04:49):
Last year I read the story.
No, it was the beginning ofthis year, it was January of
this year.
I read the story Bible all theway through.
Oh is that a blue one?
No, it's white.
Basically it is an NIV.
That is just they take sectionsof it to highlight the
narrative of scripture fromGenesis to Revelation, but they
only take parts of it.
So, like you know, you get tothe arc.
(01:05:12):
There they're going to skip allthe dimensions of the arc
because that does not translateto an easy narrative.
They print it in a style likeit's a novel, so it's your
standard novel size print.
It has the perforated niceedges of the book.
It's got no chapter markers, noverse markers.
It's like chapter one this,chapter two this.
But those are like chapters,are like broad system.
So it's, it's really cool.
So you're reading through itand then they'll add, like in
(01:05:33):
italics, they'll add their ownparaphrase of the section they
might've skipped.
Um and so you know it's stilllongish, but it's like a quarter
of the length of the actualBible, um, but it has the whole
narrative.
I really enjoyed reading that.
I mean it skips stuff thatsometimes you're like, oh man, I
missed that story, like did Ijust miss it?
But like the point of it is,it's like it's a really cool way
(01:05:54):
to just engagingly read throughthe whole Bible as a narrative.
And so I read that this year?
Speaker 2 (01:05:59):
I love to check that out.
Speaker 3 (01:06:00):
Yeah, you can buy them for $1 at any used
bookstore.
Speaker 2 (01:06:09):
Okay, thank you they were really big story bibles,
it's called the story.
Okay, there's a few like I'veseen.
I've seen one that's kind ofgot like a blue binding type
thing and I think I know whatyou're talking about.
But there's there's a fewdifferent ones out there.
Speaker 3 (01:06:15):
I did read it sometime at kcc and then ronda
told me that they read the storyas a staff at kcc, like a
decade ago oh cool nice allright.
Speaker 1 (01:06:25):
That's where it's gonna end.
Sounds great, perfect time.
This was all right.
This was fun.
It was fun.
We'll have to do it againsometime.
That'd be great sounds goodsweet all right, everybody.
Thanks for listening.
Bye, love you.
We're going to try and get this wrapped up, because
you've got to get to the hockeygame, sure, and so we'll start
off with each of you introducingyour names and telling us what
you do.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
So I'm Christian and there's that clap.
It's going to be in there.
Yeah, so I am a pastor, so I'mglad to be a part of the pastor
crew on your podcast.
I work at a church here inKentwood and I do work with
middle school and high schoolstudents.
It's pretty awesome.
I love it.
Speaker 1 (00:28):
Is that your full-time job?
Yeah, that is, it is full-time.
Speaker 3 (00:31):
Yep, my name is Ronson.
I am a pastor as well, but Idon't get paid for it, so I work
at a house church network.
It's really small, part-time,but full-time.
I run a coffee shop here inGrand Rapids.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
All right, so today we're going to talk about
Christianity and money.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
Let's go.
Speaker 1 (00:52):
So where do we want to start?
Speaker 2 (00:55):
Man I Ronson, where do you want to start?
Speaker 1 (01:01):
Yeah, because last thing I heard you say was that,
if I heard it correctly, wasthat you can't have a billion
dollars and serve the Lord.
Ooh.
Speaker 3 (01:10):
Did you hear that from us?
Speaker 1 (01:11):
I heard that from one of you when we left Manali's
Unless I could have misheard.
Speaker 3 (01:15):
Personally, I would make that argument.
I would definitely say the same.
Speaker 1 (01:20):
Yeah, but how do you like?
Where's the line drawn?
Speaker 3 (01:22):
Sure sure, the billion dollars thing has not as
much to do theologically andmore just practically.
If you are a billionaire, thenyou fundamentally.
It's really hard to do thatwithout stepping on people and
taking advantage of the system.
Sure, and so you'refundamentally taking advantage
of a flawed system and takingadvantage of the poor and
vulnerable people who haveallowed you to become a
billionaire.
(01:42):
So in that sense probably not,but I don't think that's.
The essence of the question ishow much money is too much to
have.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
Yeah, I mean I was thinking about this a little bit
on the way over here and I waslike man, like I really don't
want to win the lottery someday,because I do think that it
would.
It would be crazy Like justhaving such a huge like sum of
money Like I don't know.
I know that it would change meand and so yeah, just kind of
(02:12):
like from a moral foundation,like I've just been.
One of the things I'vediscovered or just kind of
thought about when I think aboutthe Bible is like I haven't
found any passages that reallytalk about money positively.
Yeah, so that's just like arandom, like a random foundation
, and I think like we've got alot of wonderful Christian books
on money, but I've definitelyfound a lot that don't talk
about it positively.
So I would not want to win thelottery.
That'd be scary.
Having a million dollars Ooh,that's crazy.
Speaker 3 (02:34):
I think a great place to start biblically is like
Mark 10.
I mean the precedence of therich young ruler.
He's in three of the gospelsand I think that's such a great
passage because it's justdemonstrating to what degree can
you have money and follow Jesusfrom the perspective of Jesus.
Speaker 1 (02:58):
Yeah, that would be my question.
Speaker 3 (03:00):
Yeah, and I think so much of it goes down to the more
you have, the less you canactually depend on God.
And when we have so much, wecan only theoretically depend on
God, like, oh, I trust God, Itrust God with everything, I
would give God everything.
But if you don't need to giveGod anything, if you don't need
to rely for anything, if youdon't need to pray for anything,
(03:23):
because fundamentally all yourneeds are met, your ability to
trust God is severely hindered.
It doesn't mean it's impossible,but Jesus declares that the
more you have, you can't reallyrely on me, yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:36):
I mean, I was praising God this past week for
health insurance and because,like you know, I've just been
going through some random, justlike I have what's called like
cluster headaches and, you know,super helpful to just get some
diagnosis.
But I was like man, if I waspoor I would be praying a lot
more.
Like I haven't prayed about it,like it's been good, like
people prayed over me, it's beenhelpful, but like the doctor
(03:59):
has been able to give me adiagnosis, give me a
prescription, give me a planthat provides me a path forward,
if I was poor and couldn'tafford, you know, you can see
like you can see like okay,insurance paid this percentage,
et cetera, et cetera.
And I was like man, if I waspoor this would have taken
longer, you know, at least wouldhave taken me at least two more
weeks, you know, and I'm justbeing kind of generous to like
(04:20):
that process of, like I stillwould have sought help, et
cetera and all that stuff.
But you know, just having healthinsurance you know it's a
simple thing like that Like itdefinitely creates a different
level of relying on God, youknow.
And so, even just through thepast, you know, three weeks of
having this like just smalllittle medical thing.
Like man, if I was at aslightly less medical access,
(04:41):
slightly less, you know,economic access, it would have
taken me longer.
It would have been more of aspiritual journey.
So yeah, it's just somethingthat, like, I think you know, in
the church, when we talk aboutmoney, we we don't always, you
know, talk about the spiritual,just like the spiritual aspects
of it as much as we should.
(05:04):
We talk about it verypractically sometimes.
Speaker 3 (05:06):
Yeah, and we talk about being good stewards rather
than stewarding yourrelationship with God, in the
sense that if you can't rely onGod for your basic needs,
because your basic needs aremore than met, then you have to
rely on God in other ways oryou'll have to just rely on God
in thought, like your salvation,like, oh, I accepted Jesus, but
(05:28):
I don't necessarily live forJesus because I don't need to.
It's more of like anintellectual ascent to trusting
God, and I think that goes backto the premise of the Desert
Fathers and everything that theywere doing.
It was when Rome acceptedChristianity as their religion.
(05:50):
Christians, who were in constantpersecution and constant
martyrdom, had to find ways tomake Christianity difficult for
them so that they could trustGod, because suddenly they went
from a faith that was built onpersecution to a faith that is
accepted by everyone.
And so these people went out tothe desert because they're like
it is too easy to just becomplacent.
(06:12):
Now I need to experiencesomething in which it is
difficult.
I need to give stuff up for God, because being a Christian
means I don't have to give upanything now, if Rome is
Christian, I don't need to giveup anything to be a Christian,
where before you gave upeverything to be a Christian,
and so they moved out to thedesert to do that.
And so I think we have to thinkabout our lives today and say,
(06:35):
like, do I have to give upanything to be a Christian?
Like, actually, day-to-day, isthis a sacrifice in any
meaningful way that connects meto God.
Speaker 2 (06:43):
Yeah, so, caleb, how unhinged can we be?
Speaker 1 (06:51):
As we start to build a little theology of money or
just kind of talk about the wordyou can be as unhinged as you
want.
Speaker 2 (06:53):
Word.
What's your perspective onmoney?
Kind of like, you know, I knowwe probably all came from a
little bit, you know differentbackgrounds, you know.
Just kind of like, well, Iwould say for me because I'm not
.
Speaker 1 (07:02):
I got to turn my headphones up.
I have not been, I'm not atheologian, I haven't gone to
seminary, I'm not a pastor, so Ireally don't know anything and
that's why I brought you guys onhere.
But as far as I'm concerned, Ithink that money is not an issue
, as long as you steward itproperly.
Yeah, because in Proverbs itdoes say wealth gained over time
(07:26):
is a lot better than wealthgained hastily, like if you had
won the lottery, yep.
Speaker 3 (07:31):
You think Jesus would say money is not an issue.
Speaker 1 (07:37):
I don't know.
I know he says to the richyoung ruler right, he says, go
and sell your things and he can.
Speaker 2 (07:43):
And he also says that it's harder for a rich person
to get to heaven than it is, orit's what's the quote easier for
yeah, to go to the eye of aneedle yeah I remember, like
being in theology class and likeI don't even know like who
first said it, but I remember,like you know, being in a church
where someone's like, oh, likeyou know that verse about the
eye of the needle, and theytalked about like, oh, like,
there's this place in, like youknow that verse about the eye of
(08:04):
the needle, and they talkedabout like, oh, like, there's
this place in, like you knowIsrael, somewhere where there's
this like rock structure thatthey called the eye of the
needle, and so like, have youheard this before?
Yeah, that's a very prosperitygospel take on it and I heard it
and then my professor was justlike it's just 100% made up.
Speaker 3 (08:18):
Yeah when I took a trip to Palestine, israel, we
went to that place and they'relike this is just not true, this
doesn't exist.
And people say that to try tomake the idea of wealth more
easier to swallow, Like, okay,we can have money to this extent
.
It's hard but not possible.
But what Jesus is saying isit's impossible.
(08:40):
But then later he says but withGod all things are possible.
And so those things are intension with one another.
It is impossible to followGod's law of money, but all
things are possible with God.
So it really goes back to doyou actually trust him with your
life?
Is he Lord of your life?
If he asked you to give upeverything which you did, this
(09:04):
rich young man, would you do itand follow him?
And for that man?
Speaker 1 (09:08):
no, he couldn't do it right yeah.
Speaker 3 (09:09):
No, but fortunately for us we don't have Jesus
saying, will you give upeverything to follow me?
Speaker 2 (09:14):
Like if we did, I think we'd have a lot less
disciples of Jesus, because theywould say, fundamentally, I
can't yeah no-transcript and Iwas like OK, like OK, it's
(09:38):
literally impossible and likekind of to, you know, for a
wealthy person to have that sortof like maybe mindset and how
they approach the relationshipwith Jesus and you know.
But a couple of things you know, I do think.
You know, I want to be like Ilove, like I love everything the
church teaches.
You know, I remember Ronson andI were part of a class and they
kind of had like a it was likea wheel, it was a helpful, it
(10:08):
was a helpful wheel Like, but Ithink in general it's a very
american, um, you know,christian church wheel.
That was like 25, you know,save 25.
You know try to cut off debt,you know 20, try to live off 25.
And then it was like what wasthe other 25?
Speaker 3 (10:15):
I don't remember yeah , but and it's all that is like
but does that translate to everyamount of money?
Speaker 2 (10:22):
right, yeah, exactly, so, yeah.
So that's where I'm going withit.
Speaker 3 (10:24):
It can't possibly translate, because, in my life,
say what you will about whatpercentage of each income, but I
know that more than 50% of myincome is going to my monthly
housing payments and so,fundamentally, with the system
that we're in, we can't justdecide.
(10:46):
No, I think that was a greatconcept for the 1950s.
Speaker 2 (10:51):
Right.
Speaker 3 (10:52):
But the economy just doesn't match anymore.
Speaker 1 (10:54):
Right.
Speaker 3 (10:56):
The cost of living and the wages that we have just
are not the same and we can'tpretend like they're not.
So I think to an extent, we areright now, in 2024,
experiencing a little bit morefinancial dependency.
I think a lot of people whowere more comfortable are
experiencing uncomfortabilityfinancially, maybe for the first
time, or just moreuncomfortability than they've
(11:17):
ever been.
I know like that's kind of theboat I'm in, like I didn't have
to struggle with money, like Ihad enough, and now I'm like
Like I'm I didn't have tostruggle with money, like I had
enough, and now I'm like, oh boy, I don't always feel like I
have enough money.
Speaker 2 (11:29):
I got that house.
Gotta start.
Gotta start tracking it.
Speaker 3 (11:32):
I get worried when my bills are coming around and.
I'm looking.
I'm like I get paid on Fridaysand I'm like okay, well, the
first of the month is on aThursday, so I'm not getting
paid until the next day, but thebills are coming out, and so
there is a lot of trust that weneed to learn to develop.
We need to translate that intodo you trust God to provide?
(11:52):
Because I don't think in theChristian world today we even
correlate my financial strugglesto my relationship with God.
Anymore we don't think about it.
It's my relationship with God.
And oh, I got to get my billsto pay, I got to get this lined
up, I got to work for here.
It's like there's no reliance.
The only reliance I havefrequently for money is my hours
(12:13):
, like, oh, I'm working 45 hours, I'm getting some time in the
half this week that will be, thereliance I need.
It's like I need to translatethat into do I trust God to
provide, not just oh yeah, god'sgoing to give me money, but
it's more of that spiritualdependence.
Like am I seeking the Fatherevery?
Day to provide for my needs,the daily bread that Christ has
(12:33):
called us to seek every day.
I know I don't.
Speaker 1 (12:37):
So there's also no complaints when you do get the
time to have no, of course not,I fundamentally need that to
survive, yeah, so oh, I mean allthis kind of work a little
similarly.
Speaker 2 (12:48):
Yeah, like and you know I'm salaried, um.
So for you, ronson, like whenyou feel that it's getting
closer like the tension of likeyou know, your budget's a little
closer, like and you have theopportunity to work over time,
like what's your choice, I'mjust like, if you're like man, I
could take a sabbath or I couldwork overtime, yes, like, like,
(13:09):
you know, like because I felt,I felt similar feelings you know
, yeah, I mean you do itsometimes just on top of your
job just to get more.
Speaker 3 (13:17):
It's out, it's out there on the podcast.
Everybody knows it's public.
Speaker 2 (13:21):
It's's public, yeah, no, I mean at different times,
yeah, and and I.
But I felt that you know, forme, like working 40 hours, you
know, my days are, you know,pretty much almost the same
every week.
Like I felt that tension oflike man, I need to make a
little extra money, like, like,like there's going to be
something that's either going tonot we're either going to not
(13:42):
have money, like me and my wifeMichaela, or I'm going to have
to door dash, or I'm going tohave to trust God.
And I felt that tension of likeGod has a life that he wants me
to live, you know, a life ofrhythm, sabbath, date nights,
all that sort of stuff.
And if I door dash or do anextra side hustle, I'm cutting
something out.
And where do I trust him andwhere do I?
Speaker 1 (14:03):
you're cutting something out that could be
life-giving.
My question is where is thetrust versus because couldn't?
Working at date night can be aspiritual value for your life.
Whatever that is, I wouldn'tknow.
Speaker 3 (14:32):
God's got someone, he's got somebody.
Instead of cutting somethinglike that out maybe it's cutting
out something that you'rebuying cutting out your spending
because it's easier to cut outthings like Sabbath, cut out
things like rest, cut out thingslike quality time, cut out time
with God Like, oh, I work at6.30 this morning, so I'm not
(14:52):
spending time with God in themorning, and then I'm out late
or whatever because I'm working.
I'm trying to provide this orthat and I'm cutting out things
in my life that give me value,but I'm not cutting out the
spending.
I'm cutting out things in mylife that give me value, but I'm
not cutting out the spending.
I'm making this all veryself-reflective because I don't
like blaming people Like thechurch cuts out this.
That's not my vibe, so I'mgoing to make it self-reflective
(15:14):
.
Speaker 1 (15:14):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (15:15):
Yeah, there's spending I could be cutting out,
but instead I cut out thingsthat are meaningful.
I think that's a huge point.
Speaker 1 (15:20):
Yeah, for sure, for sure, yeah, like do you really
need Netflix?
Speaker 3 (15:24):
I'm on my mom, so or Wi-Fi.
Speaker 1 (15:30):
Well, I mean, I'll say for me I don't know, I had
to cut out Wi-Fi for that reason, because I was trying to save
money.
Speaker 3 (15:33):
So I'm one of the only Cutting out Wi-Fi.
Speaker 1 (15:35):
Yeah, I don't have Wi-Fi.
Speaker 3 (15:36):
That's the desert fathers.
Right there, man, you're.
Speaker 1 (15:39):
That's how you modernize.
Speaker 2 (15:40):
So you're just living off the mobile hotspot.
Speaker 1 (15:43):
Yep Word, or if I have to edit, I go to like the
coffee shop.
Okay, okay, wow, which is moresocial anyways.
Speaker 3 (15:50):
Yeah, I don't see you at my coffee shop though, do
you?
Speaker 1 (15:52):
have Wi-Fi.
Speaker 3 (15:53):
Do I have Wi-Fi?
Speaker 1 (15:54):
You never know, you never know.
Speaker 2 (15:57):
They have a market of Wi-Fi.
It is to work from home.
Speaker 3 (16:01):
Yeah, I got like 40 pastors there a week.
Oh, I'll have to stop then.
It's a good time, yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:08):
I mean, I think about like my budget, and you know
I'm like man, you know there'sonly, you know there's only a
few things I could cut out.
You know, I think cars is, youknow, a classic example of
something that Christians reallyshould take a lot of
theological a, that Christiansreally should take a lot of
theological, a lot of reflectionbefore they purchase a car.
I think cars is kind of aclassic one of like that's a
(16:29):
money sucker.
Speaker 3 (16:30):
Or even just using cars.
Speaker 2 (16:33):
Like, do you need to drive that much?
Yeah, yep, for sure, for sure,do you need that, do you need
that?
So yeah, and I think, like ingeneral, we sanitize, you know,
just the idea of purchasing acar.
You know like we, somebody gota new car, great, we just, you
know, celebrate and then like,oh cool, he got a new car.
But uh, you know, I think likethat's something that maybe we
should.
You know, I've just heard aboutdifferent people and different
(16:53):
Christians who have like kind ofalmost a money accountability
group where, before they makelike a big purchase, something
that's in that range of you know, over a thousand, over 2000,.
You know where they meet withsome Christian brothers,
christian sisters, you know, andthey kind of talk and they're
like, man, what do you guysthink about this?
Like, is this a choice I shouldmake?
This is how it would affect mybudget, this is, you know, kind
(17:14):
of how I would see this livingout, and you know they they
might meet, you know, quarterly,annually, things like that.
That's kind of something Imight want to recapture.
Speaker 3 (17:23):
Yeah, I think that's a great question.
Enough is enough.
Another factor about money isit's easy to look at money as a
thing, but what we're reallytalking about is security in
things, because money is goingto give you the security of, if
anything happens, of my basicneeds, but it's also going to
give you things, and I think,thinking about what are the
(17:45):
things I have?
What kind of car am I trying tobuy?
What kind of groceries am Itrying to buy?
What kind of lifestyle am Itrying to live?
Those are things, and thosethings ultimately reflect our
reliance on.
God Like do we need that to besatisfied?
Because if you can't besatisfied in your life without
those things, then there's yoursatisfaction coming from Christ.
(18:07):
I think that is so much of whatJesus is getting.
After is less about oh, youmake this amount of money.
It's like, no, your lifestyleis not satisfied until you have
this amount of things in yourlife.
And you know I like stuff, so Ihave guitars, I have stuff like
that, like I like stuff.
So it's very I have stuff likethat, I like stuff.
So it's very convicting to meto think about.
Speaker 2 (18:28):
Yeah, there's a passage in James and I think
this James passage really kindof just struck me when I was
just learning more about whatthe Bible says about money, and
I really respect everything thechurch teaches.
I really do love you know GodOwns it All is a wonderful
course.
It kind of teaches you thesedifferent principles.
I love kind of the you know thewheels of different things
people teach.
(18:49):
I think it's only applicable tocertain people, right, and I
think it's helpful, as helpfulas you, like you said we talked
about stewardship, so I reallydo love all these things that
talks about, uh, just like theGod has heard the cry of you
know, just uh, people that thatare, that are being that they
(19:09):
don't have in the amount ofmoney.
And, man, you want to, you wantto pull it up.
I might not have it, um, butman, it really paints this
picture of like, of like.
It's very convicting.
Um, man, maybe we'll cut, maybewe'll cut this here and I'll
get this better.
Speaker 3 (19:26):
I don't have enough service in here to pull up a
passage.
Speaker 1 (19:29):
Yeah, the service in here is pretty bad.
I think it's all the concrete.
Speaker 3 (19:34):
It's all the concrete .
You know, I thought aboutbringing my Bible.
Instead, I brought my iPad.
Speaker 1 (19:42):
I have one right there on the edge of my what
translation you got over thereesv yes, oh, let's go.
Speaker 2 (19:50):
This is gonna be some good stuff I I.
Speaker 3 (19:55):
I think I've told you my thoughts on the esv before
what you don't like it no it's.
It's really good for um.
The language is trying toprovide the one-to-one word.
I think it's a really good,reliable translation when it
comes to 99% of scripture.
I think it does very, veryintentionally poorly when it
(20:16):
comes to the role of women inministry and as Wesleyan pastors
we're very affirming of womenin ministry and the ESV has an
agenda to soften that edge.
Speaker 1 (20:25):
Oh, I am very not, but that's a different
conversation for a different day, I think.
Speaker 3 (20:31):
We'd be Wesleyans.
That's, that's one of our bigthings.
We're the first denomination toordain women, and it's through,
it's through us.
So.
Speaker 2 (20:41):
Yeah, so yeah, I mean like James five, and she's
given this like warning to therich and, uh, you know he's like
challenging the rich, like comenow, you whip you, you rich.
Come now, you rich, weep andhowl for the miseries that are
coming upon you.
And I'm just like, like in thechurch, we just sanitize that,
like, if you like, yeah, youknow, like it's just saying like
(21:03):
there's, there's misery, youknow, coming up upon you,
there's misery if you haveriches and don't trust him right
you're adding stuff there,that's right.
But the bible is just making itclear like money's not a
positive thing, like you know,let's just kind of take a
biblical perspective on it.
But your riches have rotted andyour garments are moth-eaten.
Your gold and silver havecorroded.
Your corrosion will be evidenceagainst you and will eat your
(21:25):
flesh like fire.
You've laid up treasure in thelast days, which is something
you know we didn't think aboutmore.
Like are we just laying uptreasure?
You know when Jesus could comeback in any moment and behold
the wages of the laborers whomowed your fields, which have
kept you back by fraud or cryingout against you.
So I'm thankful, I'm thankful,like I'm thankful.
I'm not a manager, like I ain'tmaking the decisions about how
(21:48):
much people get paid.
But if I was, I'd be like thatverse.
Speaker 3 (21:52):
It would speak to me, yeah yeah, yeah, you know, I
think about the way that moneyis talked about in the Old
Testament versus the NewTestament.
You brought up Proverbs earlierand my theological and biblical
perspective is that theperspective of people
understanding God developed overtime.
And so there are ideas in theOld Testament that do not
(22:13):
reflect in the New Testament,like that passage on beware of
the rich, like beware of thefire and brimstone coming upon
you.
And then Proverbs would be like, oh, money earned over time is
a sense of Godliness, and justlike you're not going to see
that in the New Testament, Ithink it's people's
understanding of money developedinto the future.
I think anybody who's taking apositive view on money, who's a
(22:35):
Christian, is pulling it from afundamentally Old Testament
perspective, where they had lessof an idea of reliance on God,
because when you're in povertyand someone and that you know,
your nation is in poverty andthere are rich among you, the
rich are the ones blessed by Godin their perspective.
Now, that was the perspectiveof the rich young ruler.
That was something I studied alot was they saw him as being
(22:57):
blessed by God.
So when he came and said Jesus,what can I do to inherit the
kingdom of God?
Everyone would have been alreadythinking this guy's already
inherited the kingdom of God.
He has all that he needs.
He's young, he has money, hehas inheritance, he doesn't need
anything.
God's already blessed him.
And what Jesus is saying islike no, my blessing is not that
my blessing is so much moreWill you give that up to receive
(23:17):
my blessing?
And back in that day theyviewed the kingdom of God.
They viewed the blessing of Godas physical, immediate, now
reality.
They don't talk as much abouteternity as we do in today.
Even the New Testament doesn'ttalk about eternity as much as
we think it does.
It does.
But its main focus is what isJesus doing to us today, and the
(23:41):
blessing of money is notsomething that is seen as.
This is what Jesus is giving toyou today in the New Testament,
and no one can change my mindabout that.
You just won't.
Speaker 1 (23:51):
So you're not a prosperity preacher.
Okay, gotcha.
Speaker 3 (23:55):
No, I don't even get paid to preach, oh look at that.
I preach four times a yearroughly Because I do Bible
studies and different sorts ofdiscipleship in the house church
.
Speaker 2 (24:05):
But yeah, and I mean in various Bible studies.
I think like what I've come to,just like, like I just when I
just read what this, what I feellike the scripture saying, what
the heart of scripture saying,I think the thing that I've kind
of landed on is that I feel,like in the in the light of
Jesus, in the light of the newTestament, like money is talked
about pretty negatively.
Like it's talked about, youknow, as the root of all evil,
(24:26):
you know, and just corruption,things like that, just pay your
taxes, etc, you know, just talkabout pretty negatively, just
kind of, yeah, um, but like inwhat you can see from the
different patches, like I feellike at best, you know, it's
kind of seen as a resource to beutilized as best as you
possibly can, with love beingyour primary motivator.
(24:47):
But it's so funny We've gotfriends who joke about trying to
make a lot of money and stufflike that.
But I feel like, in general,scripture doesn't necessarily
have a very positive light on it.
I feel like in general, that'skind of what I've landed on in
my own personal theology andwhen I think about money, when I
think about how I personallyuse money, when I think about
how the.
When I think about how Ipersonally use money, when I
think about how the churchshould in general use money, I
(25:07):
think of it just as like.
I think we just need to view itas a resource.
It is a resource to be used.
I think scripture is very clearabout the it really I do think
scripture is clear that it's theroot of all evil.
I remember I was in a gatheringone time and this guy was like
he's like some of you guys aregoing to go out and make so much
money, you're going to be richand you're going to give that
(25:27):
money to the church.
And he's like the bible justsays that the love of money is
the root of all evil yeah, I youknow I'm making like well over
six figures, but I hate it.
I can't stand it.
Nobody just stumbles into that.
They made intentional choices,that they made intentional
choices that led them to a lifethat they can now have a very
(25:49):
wealthy lifestyle.
I mean, some people trust funds, whatever.
And so he made a hugetheological leap there that
there's not intentional choicesbeing made that bring you to a
place where you have this hugeamount of wealth.
And it was just so funnybecause I was sitting there and
I was like huh, we try to takethis passage that talks about
the love of money being the rootof all evil and make it sound
(26:13):
as if it's just kind of talkingabout a pursuit of greed.
Speaker 3 (26:19):
Yeah, I think Jesus I think we talked about in the
church about stewarding money isthe most important thing you do
.
As long as you steward yourmoney well, when it comes to
just giving money to the church,giving money to other things,
then you're okay with that money.
But I think Jesus challengeseveryone to say I don't think
that most people can stewardtheir money spiritually.
(26:41):
I think Jesus pretty muchdeclares I don't think you have
it in you to have a lot of moneyand follow me.
It's possible.
But I think he challengeseveryone to say to think you
don't have what it takes tospiritually give your all to me
and have a lot of money.
Speaker 1 (26:58):
Yeah so do you guys kind of support the poverty?
Speaker 2 (27:01):
gospel.
We're getting practical here alittle more practical.
Speaker 3 (27:05):
I mean, that's the best word I can come up with is
like poverty gospel yeah no, Ipossibly is not inherently
spiritual, but it gives you theopportunity to trust god, right,
right I I support a couplethings.
Speaker 2 (27:16):
There's a, there's a, so there's a wonderful book.
It's kind of like a small book,um, it's called daring to live
on the edge.
You guys ever seen this one?
No, it's written by.
It's kind of like a small book,um, it's called daring to live
on the edge.
You guys ever seen this?
One no it's written by this guy, lauren lauren cuttingham.
He's a.
He's like the founder of youth,of ywam youth, with a mission.
Um not sure if he's, I'm notsure he's alive I don't really
know I don't know, my parentsjust forced me to read this book
(27:39):
at some point and when I waslike in like eighth grade and I
like didn't, I didn't knowanything.
But but it's just this wonderfulbook that, uh, it just talks
about, you know, it walksthrough some principles about
giving tithing, things like that, and then it talks, you know,
just about story after storyafter story of, you know,
(28:00):
lauren's life and missionariesthat he knew that just stepped
out in faith and they were, youknow, bringing the gospel to
unreached places in the world.
They were, you know, justradically loving people that
were just desperate for Jesusand doing crazy things for God,
and time and time again, likethey would just do it and like
(28:21):
recognize that God was going towork out the finances, and time
and time again he just would, um, and you know it.
Just you read it and you'relike so encouraged, you know,
and I think sometimes, like,like it's just one of those this
is something I do support thatChristians and I would say
churches too, cause I do workfor a church um, do need to just
(28:41):
be a little bit more bold inhow they spend money, how they
approach money and and faithfulthat God is.
He's going to pay the bill.
He's going to pay the bill.
Speaker 3 (28:53):
He's going to provide the way you know and, On top of
that, match your lifestyle withthat Right Want less, want God
more and want things that arenot God less.
Speaker 2 (29:00):
Yeah, and, and so I have a question.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (29:03):
So you said that with these missionaries, they relied
on God for their finances.
Who's financing them?
Speaker 2 (29:14):
Man, I'm digging back to eighth grade book, right,
right, I'm just saying like themoney has to come from somewhere
.
Speaker 3 (29:20):
The money does have to come from somewhere.
Speaker 2 (29:21):
It does have to come from somewhere.
Speaker 3 (29:22):
And honestly with everything I said.
I do know very wonderfulChristians who make a lot of
money, amen.
I know doctors who areChristians who make a lot of
money.
And if you're a doctor, youknow I want to get into this to
help people you know you'remaking six figures no matter
what you do and there's a risk,there's a huge risk.
I wish more Christians wouldknow for their soul that hey, if
(29:46):
you're taking this career path,you know you're going to make a
lot of money.
You need to steward your soulin order to do what you think
you need to do there, and it'smore than possible.
I know wonderful Christians andthey give so much to
missionaries.
They give so much to the churchand they steward their life
well.
But that's a challenge still,because they don't have any
needs or dependencies at all.
(30:07):
So they need to really trustGod, they really need to know
God and make that the biggestpriority in their life.
Speaker 2 (30:14):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (30:15):
The more money you have, the more you need to be
giving to God.
Not your money, giving yourlife to God, yeah.
Speaker 2 (30:21):
Yeah, so and what do I support?
Like, practically, you know,people aren't coming to me for
financial advice.
Speaker 3 (30:27):
No they're not coming to me.
That's why I'm here.
Yeah, we're pastors, so we'renot making a lot of money.
Speaker 2 (30:33):
I tell people all the time like, hey, I'm down to go
through your Excel sheet withyou.
So many people don't even havean Excel sheet.
Practically they don't evenhave.
You know, money comes in, moneycomes out checking account,
that's what than that.
You know I, I, I have a littlebit of a reputation that, like,
I use every dollar, I like it.
(30:53):
It's great, I track everyexpense.
You know like and and it'shelpful for me.
Um, and so, practically likeyou know, if more people were
asking me for advice, you knowif, if I had more opportunities
you know I really do.
You know, just, I want tosupport just a theology that
says, you know, at best, moneyis a resource.
(31:14):
How can you live at the lowestkind of possible means that you
would still feel, you know, likethis is the life that God is
calling you to right.
So I bought a house at theright time.
I'm so thankful that I bought ahouse at the right time.
I'm so thankful that I bought ahouse at the right time and it
is in the perfect part of GrandRapids where I'm like.
(31:35):
It has given me opportunitiesto do enough.
Ministry Ronson and I used tolive together.
We had people over our house.
It wasn't.
It's not big but it is.
It has been the right choicethat maybe I like there were
times within the past four yearsmaybe I could have gotten
something bigger, hypothetically, or but what do I support?
(31:56):
Like, I support the idea oftrying to live at kind of the
lower, you know, kind of whereyou can, you know, have what you
need to do, ministry to supportyour family, you know, have a
place to sit.
You know like, like, havedishes, all that stuff, but just
at best see money as a resourcethat you can best use to do
good, um, in the world aroundyou.
(32:18):
And currently, you know I'mjust making ends meet.
I got all the surprise saywe're just making ends meet, um,
but I want you know Christiansto to be bold and to really
trust God that he is going toprovide in miraculous ways If
you feel called to be amissionary, if you feel called
(32:39):
to take out a step in faithwhere maybe you're going to do a
pay decrease, to talk Honestly,my wife did that recently and
we were like, okay, took a paydecrease.
Yeah, change jobs.
Oh, okay, I thought Sorry.
Speaker 1 (32:51):
Vol decrease.
Speaker 3 (32:52):
Yeah, change jobs.
Oh, okay, I thought Sorry,voluntarily got paid a lot, I
made too much Sorry.
Speaker 2 (32:57):
Yeah so.
Speaker 3 (32:58):
She's faster as well.
Speaker 2 (33:00):
Yeah, and so we did that.
You know, like change the job,stepping out into a different
role, kind of change some thingsin my life expecting kids.
So it's exciting we're my lifeexpecting kids so we're excited.
Speaker 3 (33:11):
It's exciting we're expecting twins.
Man, it's, it's amazing.
Yeah, a lot of money that goes.
You don't want to focus onmoney all the time, but then
you're having twins and you'relike how am I supposed to not
focus on money all the time?
Speaker 2 (33:20):
yeah, right and uh.
So there were a lot of thingsthat kind of just went into our
life decisions, jobs and whereshe was feeling called and
things like that.
Um, and like that's in general,kind of the idea that I support
that.
You know, have your Excel sheet, view money as a resource.
Try to live as low as you can.
(33:40):
Like I don't necessarilysupport, you know, new cars
because people will say like, oh, I can buy a new car and it's,
I'm not going to fix it, right,and if you do the math, it's
just not true.
Like, if you do the math, it'sjust not true.
Like, like, if you do the math,it actually doesn't necessarily
math out that if you, you know,spend all this money on a new
car that you're going to, whatyou're actually paying for is
kind of a peace of mind, youknow essentially.
(34:01):
Um and so, and so I kind of, youknow, have these different
personal things that I wouldkind of believe in.
Like you know, I was, like youknow, thinking about things like
in general I love camping,Right, and so people would be
like, oh well, christian, go buya camper.
I'm like, no, I'll probablystick to a tent, you know, cause
I think I can enjoy life in atent.
I don't need a camper, like youknow.
(34:26):
Like I'm good, I'm good withthe tent.
Like you know, I don't need awith just this.
Are you good with just this?
And just kind of live your lifethat way.
And when you have opportunitiesto radically give, like for me
personally, like wheneversomebody asks me to give, I'm
going to give them something.
I don't apply that to likepeople on the street and that's
like that's kind of Holy Spiritled.
(34:46):
But when my college asked me togive to the scholarship fund,
I'm like I'll give them a littlesomething.
You know, if, if somebody youknow comes up to me and they're
like, hey, I'm funding, you know, you know you get everything
right.
You get mission strips, openhouses, all this stuff, I'm like
I'm gonna give a littlesomething.
You know, I kind I already paida lot to my school.
(35:07):
I give them a small amount, butI'm going to give them every
single time they write me.
Speaker 3 (35:11):
Are you serious?
You're giving when your schoolwrites you?
Of course that's insane.
I'm all for being generous, butif IWU asked me for anything, I
gave you.
So much.
Speaker 2 (35:21):
They took the work out to write me a letter.
Where did?
Speaker 3 (35:23):
you guys go to school .
We went to Houghton.
Speaker 1 (35:26):
Yeah, I went to Houghton College.
Speaker 2 (35:28):
Up in the UP.
So the school I went to isactually in Houghton, New York.
It's actually closer thanHoughton in the UP.
Speaker 3 (35:36):
The mileage is closer .
Speaker 2 (35:38):
The mileage is actually closer.
I love saying that becausepeople will.
I'll be at the movies.
I'll be wearing like a you knowa Houghton shirt.
I'll be walking around withpeople and people are like H and
people of course get verydisappointed and I'm like nobody
knows Houghton around here, butit was.
It's a small Christian school,very similar in comparison to
like a cornerstone or or youknow a Christian school uh, here
(35:59):
in Grand Rapids, and I loved it.
It was great.
Speaker 3 (36:01):
Yeah, yeah, I went to Indiana, wesleyan.
Um yeah, great, great school aswell.
It's like Houghton, but threetimes the size and, yeah, three
times cooler, and I'm kidding,they're both wesleyan colleges.
Wesleyan church has fivecolleges and I was the biggest
one and houghton's the one thatwants to be the best this is.
This is why, houghton people,we just stay quiet I'm trying to
(36:26):
talk smack, I have no, I haveno college beef at this point in
my life yeah, so, but yeah, um,but just the practical aspects.
Of practical aspects, I thinkthe more money that you make in
your life, every pay, raise,every, whatever it is.
I think you really need toevaluate your life and say am I
stewarding my faith?
(36:47):
Well, um, am I depending on God?
Am I going back to God?
Am I transforming my life to beone that is marked by the love
of Christ?
Because the more you make Jesusheavily suggests, the less you
will do that.
Speaker 1 (37:03):
But is there a chance that you would?
Isn't there a way you can notbecome complacent, even if
you're making more money?
Speaker 3 (37:10):
Of course, but I think Jesus is suggesting that
that's really difficult.
So the only thing is I'm sayingis, if you're making a lot of
money, think about that.
Jesus suggests that this isgoing to be nearly impossible.
Do you have what it takes to dosomething?
Nearly impossible.
Speaker 1 (37:24):
Yeah, and I also wonder what is considered being
rich, because if you take theaverage, American take the
average American compared to therest of the world, we're pretty
rich.
Speaker 3 (37:37):
Well, I don't.
I never liked that comparisonbecause, yeah, take the average
comparison next to the rest ofthe world.
They're not paying the sameamount for anything in the rest
of the world.
So, it really goes to yourcontext.
Cause if you're like, oh, youknow you're making, you goes to
your context.
Because if you're like, oh, youknow you're making, you know 40
000 or 50 000 a year, um, inyour you know you're considered
rich for the world but just likeyou know, in america, I feel
(37:58):
like I'm just above poverty andbeing just above poverty,
telling someone who's barelyabove that, oh, you're pretty
much rich, don't complain yeah,that's true, that's that's just
not true.
The cheapest apartment I've everseen in town here was $900 a
month, like there's.
I've never seen anything belowthat.
So it's like don't tell someonewho's making above the brink of
(38:18):
poverty that they're richbecause you know, I feel like,
yeah, I mean, there's a wholebunch of like interpretation,
right?
Midwest right.
If you, if you're living out onthe west coast or on the east
coast or something like 50,000is absolute poverty, like you're
living out on the West coast oron the East coast or something
like 50,000 is absolute poverty.
Like you're not gettinganything, like you can't live in
a house.
You don't have house.
You have, like an apartment aquarter of the size of this one.
Speaker 1 (38:39):
So much for me.
We move into New Hampshire.
Speaker 3 (38:42):
Are you moving to New Hampshire?
Speaker 1 (38:43):
I wanted to, but not anymore.
Speaker 3 (38:45):
Yeah, like the Midwest is comfortable.
I mean it's expensive, right,it's expensive everywhere and
that's going up, regardless ofwhat political persuasion you
believe in is going up andthat's just a reality we have to
accept.
Speaker 1 (39:00):
I think Michigan's economy will hold on tight,
though, because we're right nextto Canada, so trading is easier
.
We have the big lakes, we canship things.
Speaker 3 (39:08):
I mean.
I know nothing about this yeah,I don't go too deep in that.
Speaker 2 (39:13):
we're here no, we can .
Speaker 3 (39:14):
We can go political for a second, I can give you
political opinions that I have alot of, but my my background
and experience and professionwould not suggest that I'm an
expert in that, so I'm not goingto pretend to be an expert in
it, oh, I was going to saybecause we kind of you are on
the unhinged christian podcast.
Speaker 1 (39:31):
So because I I we did kind of cover your guys's
radical ideas of money so wecould move on to something else.
Or we can just call it quitsgot a nice 40 minutes in your
your call.
Speaker 3 (39:42):
I feel like.
I feel like christian, and Idid a very good job at
explaining what we believed, andI don't think I'm gonna say
anything additionally.
I'm just gonna keep going incircles.
Speaker 1 (39:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (39:52):
If you let me go for 40 minutes, I'll say the same
stuff in different ways for 40more minutes, right?
Speaker 1 (39:56):
I think I hit it.
Yeah, we don't need to go incircles.
If you guys are good and don'twant to talk about anything else
, we can call it good and I'mhaving fun.
Speaker 3 (40:06):
I'm okay with talking about something else, but Sure,
yeah, let's hit one more.
Speaker 2 (40:11):
Ronson, you're on the podcast, okay.
Speaker 1 (40:13):
You're here, okay, well, you are too.
Speaker 2 (40:17):
Yeah, and this is Christmas podcast now yeah, we
see money very similar where youknow we politics we don't
necessarily see exactly the sameway.
So so you're here, might aswell just answer like maybe how
does money inform kind of your,your political leanings or just
kind of things like that, orjust some of your perspectives
(40:38):
on money?
Um, it's been tough for me tokind of think about sometimes,
you know, because I think, uh,well, I just think both
political parties, I thinkgovernment just gets money wrong
in general it it's just sininstitutionalized.
But he shook his head, yeah.
Speaker 3 (40:56):
At the end of the day , I am for more wealth
distribution and more moneydistribution.
Speaker 1 (41:04):
Is that a nice way of saying socialism?
Speaker 3 (41:06):
Yeah, no, you know, if the trickle-down works, we'll
let the trickle-down work, butit's proven for the last century
that it fundamentally does notwork.
Yeah, we're still waiting.
If the trickle-down works,we'll let the trickle-down work,
but it's proven for the lastcentury that it fundamentally
does not work.
We're still waiting to see atrickle-down.
So you know, for me I'm likesomeone's, like, oh well, the
trickle-down actually worksreally well.
I'm like, bet, let's do thatWait, explain trickle-down.
Like putting the money more ontop, giving billionaires more
tax breaks, breaks so that theycan expand their business, to
(41:29):
allow money to go down to theeveryday person.
And we just fundamentally knowthat's not how it happens.
You're seeing CEOs in everysingle company large companies.
Speaker 1 (41:41):
I'm not talking about small business, every single
large company.
Speaker 3 (41:44):
Their margins of the top are getting bigger and
bigger and bigger and they'remaking more and more money.
Now the bottom is making justas much or less than they were
before, while prices ofeverything go up.
Speaker 2 (41:54):
Yeah, and so fair enough.
Like I, definitely, like youknow, I don't necessarily like
hold my political leanings, youknow, with a, you know love for
the idea of trickling downeconomics or things like that.
But at the end of the day,here's here's where we might
actually disagree a little bit,is I, because I think that in
general, like you know, we, Ibelieve that one person the CEO,
(42:16):
the board, et cetera is morelikely to make wise choices with
their money than aninstitutionalized government.
Speaker 1 (42:24):
Yeah, I would agree with that.
Speaker 2 (42:26):
And so, but it's.
But I think the jury, I wouldsay you know, not the political
parties would say but I wouldsay the jury is out on that.
But I lean, you know, towardsthe faith.
I have more faith in a board,10 people, et cetera, and I use
the example of Chick-fil-A.
Right, like, chick-fil-a is awonderful organization.
I love Chick-fil-A, I workedthere for a long time and they
(42:49):
do wonderful things with theirmoney.
I mean chick-fil-a, I workedthere for a long time and and
they do wonderful things withtheir money I mean, they
literally give so much of itaway.
Speaker 3 (42:54):
You know right, and they treat their employees very
well.
They treat the employees verywell and their employees get
paid well their employees getpaid very well.
Speaker 2 (42:58):
It scales up very nicely like they're getting
benefits even at like a localexactly, but so maybe I just
have too much faith because it'sa vast majority of large
businesses are not even close toright exactly no car.
Speaker 3 (43:10):
Look at car companies like Ford if you look at
Starbucks, you're seeing thesecompanies where the CEOs are
making billions now.
Speaker 2 (43:16):
Yeah, my personal experience has never allowed me
to give that up.
I have so much faith.
Maybe an evangelist is going tocome across, the CEO of the car
company you mentioned.
Speaker 1 (43:29):
Would we be better off to put our faith in the
government?
I?
Speaker 3 (43:33):
think we tried this political system as much as we
can, and it's not working forthe poorer have never been more
poor.
The middle class has never beenpoor, more poor.
The rich has never been richer,and that's a fact.
You can't debate that, people.
There are more billionaires whoexist now than there ever have
been ever.
You, you can't debate that.
So there is this amount ofmoney in the world.
Speaker 2 (43:55):
It's just going up, it's not going down, and so Well
, people are going to, of course, you know, point to the fact
that there's opportunity, youknow, and then there's more
opportunity.
Speaker 1 (44:05):
There's more opportunity for me to become a
billionaire.
Speaker 2 (44:07):
And we use the example of doordash right.
Like I, as long as you got aphone and a car and an internet
connection, you can make you canmake?
Speaker 3 (44:15):
you can make fifty thousand dollars an hour.
Speaker 2 (44:17):
I mean, you know that's what all the ads say.
Yeah, so, and people will pointto the opportunity.
You know I mentioned thosethree.
Things are not easy, like ifyou're poor, like having a car,
internet connection, phone, etc.
Speaker 3 (44:29):
Like those things are not easy having a car and if
everybody did it for deliveryservice right use for delivery
service, etc.
Speaker 2 (44:35):
All that stuff.
Um, that's an interesting worldwe live in, like the fact that
like people are growing up in aworld now where there is a sort
of opportunity, where you knowyou can have just a few things
and live and make enough moneyto to survive, but for me I I am
nowhere close to the opinionthat we should allow the system
(44:56):
to exist on the opportunity thatI can become incredibly wealthy
.
Speaker 3 (45:00):
I would rather a system that inherently makes us
all.
The entry point is way easierfor anybody across the board who
doesn't have the resources.
So, personally, I won't say howI'm voting, but when I vote,
what I'm thinking about is howis this going to impact the most
vulnerable people?
What party is going to have agreater chance of influencing
the poorest of the poor, ofreaching people who don't have
(45:23):
the resources that I have?
I'm not voting for myselfbecause I have everything I need
.
I don't need the governmentsupport.
Who I believe the governmentneeds to support is people who
did not get to grow up in theway I got to grow up.
The people who don't haveresources.
So I'm going to vote for theparty that I believe is going to
bring more resources for thatdemographic of people.
And, fundamentally, you knowwho I voted for in the last
(45:45):
election.
Speaker 2 (45:46):
I mean, this one was a tough one for me.
It was a tough one for me.
It was a tough one, I wasprobably back and forth, you
know.
Yeah, I was back and forth upuntil 20 days before, and then I
just had to just kind of thinkabout a couple of different
things that would affect me anddifferent people and just some
things like that.
And of course, you know, moneyis not maybe the biggest thing
(46:12):
that I'm necessarily alwaysthink about when I'm voting.
I mean, we actually can votewith our money, which is
something that Christians don'ttalk about enough, because they
vote.
You know, kind of one issue oncertain things like that, but
another way you could vote isjust by giving money.
Speaker 3 (46:21):
Another way you can vote is giving a million dollars
away to everyone who votes forTrump, Like must it?
Did he do that?
Speaker 2 (46:34):
He did give money away to people and he created a
raffle in pennsylvania.
That's crazy.
Speaker 3 (46:36):
I had no idea he did that.
That's.
That's pretty insane.
You can vote with your money.
That hasn't.
That hasn't been debunkedthat's real no that's real.
He gave his check to someone.
That's wild yeah, I meanthere's more in that you can go,
but yeah so.
Speaker 2 (46:44):
So here's a random thing, but, um, another reason
why I just really I I put moretrust in people than the
government kind of distributionis because I remember when I was
in high school, the owneroperator of the Chick-fil-A
where I worked at was verytransparent with a few money
practices of the organizationand one of the things that he
(47:06):
was just kind of open and honestabout was, you know, we maybe
had like three mid-levelmanagers, you know, maybe like a
kitchen manager, front managerand a marketing manager, and he
was very honest that as theowner, he was never going to
take home or take home profits.
That was more than three timesuh, that was more than what the
three of them were makingcombined.
Speaker 3 (47:27):
Yeah, and so it was a very, very transparent business
practice, and if that was thebusiness model of, say, like
Ford, the owner of Ford wouldn'tbe making like $60 million a
year or whatever he's making,while their lower managers are
making like 50 to 70 grand.
Like that just wouldn't be thecase.
Speaker 2 (47:45):
Right, right.
And so I remember, like in highschool, just kind of hearing,
hearing that kind of tuckingthat away and being like man,
that's a really honorablebusiness practice, that's
incredibly honorable, and ifthat was across the board, I
would be a hundred percent forthat.
Speaker 3 (47:57):
That would be the best.
But you know people are like oh, socialism doesn't work.
But then this, this is working,though you know it might be
working for the honesty ofChristian's manager at.
Chick-fil-a, but that's notworking across the board.
Speaker 1 (48:08):
Right, but I think one of the other problems is
when you tax the billionairesand you put certain people on
certain levels of income, onwelfare or aid they have to
qualify for it Right.
So, it takes away theirincentive to improve their life,
and then they just stay relyingon the government.
Speaker 2 (48:31):
I mean it's a start.
It is a start and I, Ipersonally, you know people need
to rely on the government.
Speaker 3 (48:37):
There are people with fundamental disability like
look at homelessness.
Homelessness, mental health anddisabilities is skyrocketed in
homelessness and those peopleneed to rely on something.
Speaker 1 (48:48):
They can't Right.
Right, I'm not saying, but I'msaying for those, like in
between, people that could makeit out, right now there's no
incentive to do that becausethey say it's like 40 grand's
the limit.
If they make 41 grand, all of asudden it's like well, you're,
you're out of our bracket, so wecan't help you anymore, right
and I mean I when every whatyou're saying is 100 true, that
too, I think it is.
Speaker 2 (49:09):
It might be lower than 40, yeah I.
I think it's close to right,that was just a number that I
was guessing well, and I, andand because I personally see
this like, without getting intohuge detail, you know someone,
someone in my close family, youknow, lives in this dynamic of
like.
I see the benefit that you knowkind of the governmental
program is able to offer you,you know, but it does limit
their opportunity.
You know where, if they were totake, you know, step one, two,
(49:31):
three, four that they would ingeneral be kind of excited for.
That would kind of bring themto a place in their life where
maybe they're working full timeet cetera, things like that,
they would start to lose thisand and I've seen this dynamic
where they can't do it, theycan't take that step because
they would lose.
You know what the government is.
(49:52):
I'm so grateful that thegovernment is providing and
giving them to pursue theirlifestyle.
So I go back and forth withthis because I see it, you know,
and I know that, like man, notevery instance is the same, not
every circumstance is the same.
It's different for every person.
Speaker 3 (50:06):
For me.
I don't go back and forth inany way.
I think there needs to be vastimprovements on the public
access.
Speaker 2 (50:13):
We just need to write the law better.
Yeah, there needs to be vastimprovements on public access to
healthcare.
Speaker 3 (50:17):
I think, fundamentally, the poorest
people in this country are notgetting good healthcare.
They're relying on soupkitchens and the goodness of
people who are creating theseorganizations to provide for
their basic needs.
While we can provide for basicneeds, we're just choosing not
to.
I have a friend who works at acoffee shop.
They're a part-time baristalike 20, 30 hours a week, and
(50:42):
they got their Medicaid.
Is it Medicare or Medicaid?
One of them is for senior.
I think it's Medicare.
Yeah, I don't know thedifference, but anyways, they
got their health insurancedenied by the government because
they made too much money lastyear and they're working 20 to
30 hours a week at a coffee shop.
Speaker 2 (50:58):
We need to write the law, but you're making too much
money to receive healthcare.
Speaker 3 (51:01):
You have to buy your own.
It like what.
They're part-time in the coffeeshop.
They can barely swing rent yeahyeah, and do you?
Speaker 2 (51:10):
do you know like, like was shopping around for
health care easy for them?
Is that challenge?
Speaker 3 (51:14):
I mean it's, it's not hard, but it's like a hundred
or plus dollars a month, sure,if you're of good health, if you
have any pre-existingconditions or anything that you
rely on medication for, it'sgoing to be more, and so you
know it well.
Hopefully you're healthy andhave an additional hundred or so
dollars a month to spend.
It's not hard to get to pay forhealthcare, but I mean to get
it, but it is expensive, it's anexpense of money you don't have
(51:37):
Right right and the cheaperplans.
Speaker 2 (51:39):
They don't really do as much for you.
Speaker 3 (51:40):
When we could have a system that provides that, that
for people.
You know I am 100% foruniversal health, universal
health care in this country.
Speaker 1 (51:49):
I would be, too, if I didn't believe that the
government was inherently evil.
Speaker 3 (51:53):
I would be too.
The government is absolutelyinherently evil.
Speaker 2 (51:55):
I would be too, if our doctors wouldn't just quit
and up and leave because they'regetting paid less money.
Speaker 3 (52:00):
See the doctors might you know, I'm not afraid of
doctors quitting.
They're all making six figures.
Speaker 2 (52:04):
I'm not afraid of them somebody's gonna hey,
somebody's gonna step up.
It might not.
They might not be as good.
Speaker 3 (52:10):
I can't make four hundred thousand dollars a year
anymore I'm quitting, andsomeone's like oh, I can make
two hundred thousand dollars ayear to be a doctor.
Speaker 1 (52:15):
Sure, let's do it yeah, but then with a lack of
doctors they might lower the thequalifications to become one
sure right, which then the?
Health.
Healthcare is just as bad ifyou have terrible doctors.
Speaker 3 (52:28):
It might not be.
Just a lot of the basichealthcare people need does not
take the full qualifications adoctor may have.
You know, like if you just needsomething really, really basic,
you're still paying like $300for a doctor.
I had like a toenail that wassuper ingrown.
It was very, very painful.
I had to get that toenail justlifted out and removed.
(52:53):
They numbed it, they lifted itout, they cut it.
It was very painful but it wascompletely numbed Pretty much a
job of scissors $300.
Speaker 2 (52:57):
Not a specialist.
This is a physician.
Speaker 3 (52:59):
This is a family doctor cutting out $300 out the
door.
It took him five minutes andit's like that seems unnecessary
.
Speaker 1 (53:05):
I had to have glass taken out of my toe and it was
three grand.
Yeah, yeah Three grand and ittook probably 20 minutes.
Speaker 3 (53:13):
Well, you need the special occasions, just like.
They just have the equipmentand like.
So all I'm saying is a lot of alot of care that could be done
does not need the level ofspecialization that doctors have
.
We need that specialization.
My stepfather is a nephrologist.
He does a kidney doctor.
We need people like thatfundamentally for those issues,
(53:35):
but at the same time, there arebetter ways to do healthcare.
It's happening all over theworld.
We're just closing our ears andpretending like it's not
happening.
All over the world it is.
Other people are not concernedabout healthcare in different
countries in the world.
Other people are not concernedabout going broke if you get a
disease, if you break your arm,whatever.
That's where I think thecountry needs to store better
money in.
Yeah, I'm not an expert in that, though Neither am I.
(54:01):
This whole section.
We're pastors.
These are opinions formed byour own personal research.
I'm not professional.
I'm not going to claim to be.
Speaker 2 (54:12):
Yeah, and I'm thankful that the specialist I
saw last week was incentivizedto whatever incentivized that
specialist to be a part of thatfield, whether that was money or
not.
Yeah, it helped me and itprovided me a lot of relief.
And if that person was notthere at that time and that
place and wasn't trained the waythey were, I could be in a lot
of pain right now.
Speaker 3 (54:32):
But you know, doctors aren't the ones who are like.
You're like oh, doctors getpaid less money.
Not really.
What we're looking at is bigpharma and owners of hospitals
and stuff who are makingbillions.
And yeah, they might be makingmillions over a few years if
you're a doctor, but if you're ahigher up in the hospital, if
you are in big pharma sellingmedication that takes pennies
for hundreds of dollars to poorpeople who need it, that's the
(54:55):
biggest part of the question.
That needs to come way down.
Speaker 1 (55:00):
I also think that part of the problem with big
pharma is our food.
Speaker 3 (55:04):
Oh, for sure so.
Speaker 1 (55:05):
I think they're in cahoots together, that's just my
conspiracy theory and I thinkthat food is meant to make us
fat, sick and nearly dead, sothat we rely on Big Pharma.
Speaker 3 (55:18):
I mean, that was my theory that the roads were so
bad in Michigan, because all thecars were made here.
If the roads stayed really badthen the cars would get beaten
up.
Speaker 1 (55:28):
But Whitmer fixed our roads.
Speaker 3 (55:29):
So you know what, there we go.
Speaker 1 (55:31):
Well, she didn't around here.
Speaker 3 (55:32):
No, she did.
That's why I can't get anywhere.
It takes me 30 minutes to gethome because every single road
in my exit is closed.
Speaker 2 (55:38):
They're doing a lot of work right now.
Speaker 3 (55:39):
They're doing a lot of work and the highway to get
over here is the nicest highwayin town.
Speaker 1 (55:43):
Which one did you take?
I-96?
Yeah, that one is nice 96 is sonice.
Speaker 3 (55:47):
131 is beaten up, but they worked on it for like
three months.
So they're working on the roads.
They're doing their best.
Speaker 1 (55:54):
They're doing good, Just taking their time which is
fine Good things take time.
Yeah, anyway, we'll end there,but I just want to know what
translation of the Bible do youread?
Speaker 3 (56:08):
Ah, so I am.
If I am preaching, I am doingan Ivy.
If I am leading a Bible studywith uh more discovery base, I'm
doing NLT.
Um.
If it's more of a deep dive,I'm doing an IB.
Or uh NRSV, um, because,because I think NIV is that
(56:29):
perfect middle ground ofunderstandability to
word-for-word translation,because what you need from your
translation is to comprehend thewords.
If it is not as close to theGreek as it was, then you're
understanding it more and theidea of scripture is to
understand it.
And it might not be the exactword for word from the Greek,
(56:49):
but if you can't understand thatas much, then it's not a
translation that's working foryou.
And I understand the dynamicsof translation and I get that
opinion primarily from theclassic IBS book how to Get the
Most from how to Read the Biblefor All Its Work.
How to Read the Bible for AllIts Work, great book that book
heavily suggests that the NIV isone of the translations you
(57:12):
should be reading for preaching,for biblical study, because it
has that really good middleground.
And again, I don't like the ESV, because not because it's a bad
translation overall it is alittle cardboard because it's a
closer one to one.
Every word is closer to theGreek, word for word.
But our language doesn't lineup with Greek at all and so it
makes a very clunky read, a hardto understand read.
Speaker 2 (57:34):
And, if I can, just I got a funny point on that.
Speaker 3 (57:37):
Oh, if I can just be so direct, I think the ESV is
intentionally sexist and that ispublic information.
You can research that it's froma board who wants to diminish
the role of women in ministryand they've changed words, you
know, like Phoebe to, instead ofbeing Paul's partner in
ministry, she is a helper atthat church.
There's a lot of examples likethat.
(57:58):
You can.
You can look it up yourself.
You know.
Look up ESV, women in ministrycontroversy.
You'll get article afterarticle, video after video.
You don't need my help to dothat and I take issue with that
because I am an advocate forwomen in all levels of
leadership in the churchministry.
The Wesleyan church, ourdirector, superintendent, was a
woman for a long time.
So for for for me, for Kristenlike that is really important,
(58:20):
and so that's the reason I don'tlike the ESV of the translation
itself.
Totally cool with it.
I had more than one ESV in myhouse.
Um, I just don't like it sofunny story about the esv.
Speaker 2 (58:30):
The esv has a wonderful reader's bible, um,
and I've like searched on google, I've like tried to search
around and you know, so thereader's bible doesn't have like
the verse, uh, notes, uh, soit'll just like maybe have like
chapter and, and so it doesn'thave the verse.
And so one of the only biblesthat I was able to find that was
pretty affordable, uh, that hada really nice reader's edition,
(58:50):
was the esv I will say the esvhas the best branding of oh they
have great branding, greattranslation, who is even a
quarter as much whoever's doingtheir marketing is just amazing.
Speaker 3 (59:00):
It's wonderful someone gave me this gift.
It was like this big collectionseries of an esv.
It was like the Bible broken upin individual books and all the
print.
Speaker 2 (59:10):
It's so beautiful.
They had the beautiful cover,yeah.
Speaker 3 (59:13):
And it's wonderful and it's an ESV, so I don't read
it, but it's wonderful becausethe ESV team if you look up like
nice leather-bound Bibles withcool prints and stuff.
Oh, they're beautiful, they'rebeautiful.
Speaker 2 (59:27):
They're catching up, they're catching up, they're
catching up.
Speaker 3 (59:28):
I have some good NIVs , some good NLTs, but they don't
look as nice as a nice ESV.
Speaker 2 (59:33):
Yeah.
I have an ESV study Bible fromlike 10 years ago, that's still
just.
This Bible looks so much coolerthan all the other ones.
So when I am just trying to domore long reading, like if I'm
trying to read for a moreextensive time, I actually do
turn to the esv because I'mlooking for that bible that
doesn't break it up, always withthe verse numbers, sure.
And then, um, my, I'vediscovered I actually am using
(59:54):
the niv a little bit morerecently, because I've just
noticed I'm like when I'm tryingto remember a verse, all the
little verses that I'vememorized, they're all in niv,
yeah, and I'm just like.
Oh, sometimes I'm like the verseI was thinking of if I just
looked it up in niv, I wouldhave gotten there so much
quicker.
Um, and because the nlt justchanged something, it's not
exactly the song I learned as akid and so you know, the niv
(01:00:15):
just kind of gets me really goodthere my only problem with the
current niv translation, um, isthat they use the word
forbearance instead of patiencein uh, the fruit of the spirit,
and love, joy, peace, patience,kindness.
Speaker 3 (01:00:30):
You got bored over there.
They use love, joy, peace,forbearance, kindness, and I'm
like I don't know whatforbearance is.
Why did you choose?
Speaker 2 (01:00:36):
this.
Pastors will preach on that.
Pastors will preach on that.
Speaker 3 (01:00:39):
Patience was great.
I loved patience.
I know what that qualm with thecurrent and I like patience
better.
Speaker 1 (01:00:50):
I also read from the message quite a bit.
Speaker 3 (01:00:52):
Again, I do.
Oh, the message is great.
Grow up.
The message is great because itis communicating the most
understandable text.
It is for people who do notknow scripture.
They are getting scripture putin their words.
We are growing up withscripture all around us and we
have this ear for what scripturemeans.
(01:01:13):
We understand these words.
We understand the sentencestructure because we were
immersed from it when we wereyoung.
If you don't have that, it'sweird and foreign.
Speaker 1 (01:01:21):
Yeah that's true Even the.
Speaker 3 (01:01:22):
NIV sounds uncomfortable because that's not
how we talk the message.
Eugene Peterson did a beautifuljob.
Speaker 1 (01:01:28):
He did a great job, yeah, and he even calls it a
paraphrase.
He does say paraphrase Becauseit is a paraphrase.
Speaker 3 (01:01:34):
But for me he calls that to water down people who
are opposed to it, becauseparaphrase is a style of
translation.
The NLT is a paraphrase style.
That means phrase for phrase,like the fruit of the spirit is
love peace, patience, kindness.
They're going to take thatphrase from Greek and translate
it where a more rigidtranslation like the ESV is
going to take the translatefruit, translate of translate to
(01:01:55):
the same word.
So yeah, it's a paraphrase, butparaphrase is a style of
translation, so I don't know, oh, he likes it.
Speaker 2 (01:02:03):
He likes the message.
Speaker 1 (01:02:04):
He likes it, I just think that he adds a little bit
sometimes.
Speaker 3 (01:02:07):
Everybody adds a little bit sometimes.
I think that's we're in denialof that.
When it comes to translations,they all have a bias, because
every translation of the Bibleis being created by people
funding that there are churches,there are networks, there are
organizations who are givingmoney for this translation to
happen.
Speaker 1 (01:02:24):
Who funds the ESV?
Is it the Calvinists?
Speaker 3 (01:02:28):
Oh yeah, crc is a big part of that.
Baptist is a big part of that.
That makes sense.
Yeah, that's a huge influencein the funding of the.
If you look at the board of theprimary funders of the ESV,
they're all super hard reformbros and that's okay.
They can have their translation.
They need to have a translation, I translation, they need to
(01:02:54):
have a translation.
I know some great, super hardreform grows.
We live in West Michigan, so I'mjust saying I don't prefer that
.
So every Bible translation hasa bias.
Hopefully that bias is asminimal as possible, but they
all have people who are givingthem money.
And if you have a bunch ofWesleyans giving money to a
translation of a Bible, youbetter hope that your treatment
of language around women isfavorable, right, so they're not
going to make the translationsay something about women.
It doesn't.
You know, they might make itlike stand out like Phoebe, a
(01:03:16):
helper, a helper and formercoworker and pastor of this
church, right, you know, insteadof just saying a person who was
there at that church, stufflike that.
Anyways, that's not really evenmy expertise either.
Speaker 2 (01:03:29):
Well, I do got to say , like there are some.
If you look this up, there aresome nice new Bibles.
These days it's filament.
I got a filament Bible.
I didn't even know this, but,like you, open up the front page
and, like you, it's got like aQR code that you like link to
your phone, downloads, an appand it is like an amazing study
(01:03:50):
resource like they're.
Speaker 3 (01:03:51):
Just with the technology we got today, it's
getting good I think you can youcan go to the page I have to
have my phone out while I'mreading the bible.
Speaker 2 (01:03:57):
It's inherently five points so you can go to the page
.
Like.
The page at the top is like aqr, but it doesn't look like a
qr, like the number just has alittle carrot next to it.
It'll recognize it and thenit'll like give you resources on
it.
Speaker 3 (01:04:12):
It's really cool.
I do like carrots.
Speaker 2 (01:04:13):
Yeah, me too, and I have found NRSV.
They do great study Bibles.
Yeah, nrsv is great, very goodstudy Bibles.
Speaker 3 (01:04:21):
That is the ESV for people who don't like the ESV.
Honestly ESV for people whodon't like the ESV, Honestly one
of these days.
Speaker 2 (01:04:28):
I want to go back to one of those teen study Bibles
where you're reading it and thenall of a sudden, halfway
through you're reading John,it's got a story about some
testimony from this guy, matt.
It just breaks up the sectionand then all of a sudden it's
like and this reminds me of myfriend Matt, who this happened
to him, yada, yada yada.
My friend Matt, who hashappened to him?
Yada, yada yada.
Those Bibles were great.
I'm going to get one of thoseagain.
Speaker 3 (01:04:49):
Last year I read the story.
No, it was the beginning ofthis year, it was January of
this year.
I read the story Bible all theway through.
Oh is that a blue one?
No, it's white.
Basically it is an NIV.
That is just they take sectionsof it to highlight the
narrative of scripture fromGenesis to Revelation, but they
only take parts of it.
So, like you know, you get tothe arc.
(01:05:12):
There they're going to skip allthe dimensions of the arc
because that does not translateto an easy narrative.
They print it in a style likeit's a novel, so it's your
standard novel size print.
It has the perforated niceedges of the book.
It's got no chapter markers, noverse markers.
It's like chapter one this,chapter two this.
But those are like chapters,are like broad system.
So it's, it's really cool.
So you're reading through itand then they'll add, like in
(01:05:33):
italics, they'll add their ownparaphrase of the section they
might've skipped.
Um and so you know it's stilllongish, but it's like a quarter
of the length of the actualBible, um, but it has the whole
narrative.
I really enjoyed reading that.
I mean it skips stuff thatsometimes you're like, oh man, I
missed that story, like did Ijust miss it?
But like the point of it is,it's like it's a really cool way
(01:05:54):
to just engagingly read throughthe whole Bible as a narrative.
And so I read that this year?
Speaker 2 (01:05:59):
I love to check that out.
Speaker 3 (01:06:00):
Yeah, you can buy them for $1 at any used
bookstore.
Speaker 2 (01:06:09):
Okay, thank you they were really big story bibles,
it's called the story.
Okay, there's a few like I'veseen.
I've seen one that's kind ofgot like a blue binding type
thing and I think I know whatyou're talking about.
But there's there's a fewdifferent ones out there.
Speaker 3 (01:06:15):
I did read it sometime at kcc and then ronda
told me that they read the storyas a staff at kcc, like a
decade ago oh cool nice allright.
Speaker 1 (01:06:25):
That's where it's gonna end.
Sounds great, perfect time.
This was all right.
This was fun.
It was fun.
We'll have to do it againsometime.
That'd be great sounds goodsweet all right, everybody.
Thanks for listening.
Bye, love you.
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