April 30, 2025 • 62 mins
How did religious liberty in America become so entangled with political identity? This raw, thought-provoking conversation examines the troubling disconnect between Christian values and political actions.
We begin by exploring how religious liberty has been weaponized to defend policies that contradict biblical teaching. The case of a wrongfully deported father reveals how Christian silence on injustice undermines our witness. "As a Christian, as a believer, I want to see those kids have their dad back," one speaker passionately argues, highlighting the gap between "family values" rhetoric and political reality.
The conversation takes a fascinating turn as we dive deep into biblical texts about women in church leadership. Romans 16 becomes our guide as we examine Paul's references to women as his "co-workers" in ministry. This theological debate exemplifies how scripture requires careful contextual reading rather than cherry-picking verses to support predetermined positions. I do okay during this section but it did show me that I need to be more versed (pun intended) in theology.
Most powerfully, we explore what authentic ministry truly looks like in an age of Christian celebrity and political polarization. One speaker shares how a simple dinner invitation transformed his life more profoundly than any sermon. "That is more ministry than a lot of pastors and Christians alike will put in their entire lifetime," he reflects, reminding us that Jesus' command to feed the hungry and welcome the stranger represents the heart of the gospel.
Where do we go from here? By returning to relationship-based ministry, speaking truth regardless of political fallout, and remembering our primary citizenship is in God's kingdom. As one speaker concludes, "You're not spreading the gospel by who you vote for... we are spreading the gospel one person at a time."
Leave a comment sharing your thoughts on religious liberty and how Christians can better navigate the tension between faith and politics. What does authentic ministry look like in your context?
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Anyway, for this episode, I think it'd be good to
just jump in.
Speaker 2 (00:03):
Yeah, let's go.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
Because you've already been on here a few times
.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
So people know who you are Religious liberty.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
Religious liberty what exactly is it and how do we
go about doing it?
Speaker 2 (00:15):
Well, religious liberty, for at least most of us
, has come to mean the freedomto practice our religion as we
deem fit.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
Okay, I'm glad you explained that, because I'm
thinking religious liberty wasstuff that Christians can do
that other people might think ofas sin.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
And well, I think that is a very good and common
observation, I feel like, ofpeople outside of Christianity
or you know, who are notreligious, because it usually
seems like Christians can dothings that would not be okay or
normal outside of that.
(01:01):
Outside of that and we see thatin every factor, every section
of our society, from schools topolitics, to music, we see
Christians being able to dothings because they call
themselves Christian.
They're able to do things andget away with saying certain
(01:21):
things that you just would notbe able to do or say if you are
not a Christian.
Speaker 1 (01:30):
Do you have any?
Speaker 2 (01:30):
examples See.
Now you get me into the debate.
Speaker 1 (01:34):
Oh no, I would say— I'm not trying to debate.
No, no, no.
Speaker 2 (01:38):
Well, I already know I'm going to get in trouble with
this, but I don't care aboutthat, with this, but you know, I
don't care about that.
Um, it's, it's one of thethings that I I that's on my
mind right now is umdeportations.
That's one of the things that'son my mind.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
Oh yeah, this would be a good, a good discussion.
So okay, continue.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
And the reason why it's, on my mind, is not because
we shouldn't have some sort ofcomprehensive immigration policy
.
Right, because we've beenillegally deporting legal
(02:27):
immigrants and legal residentsand in the name of what should
be their first amendment rightas guaranteed by the
constitution.
Right, what we've been sayingis, if you are speaking against
the policies of thisadministration or the stances of
(02:52):
this administration, then wehave the right.
The administration is saying wehave the right to revoke your
funding or to deport you in thecase that you are not a United
States citizen by birth.
Speaker 1 (03:08):
Are you referring to the student?
I don't remember his name.
I really don't.
I'm one of the people thatreally doesn't watch the news.
When I say I don't watch it,I'm really not watching it.
I really don't watch it.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
Well, I bet you know his name Well, honestly, I don't
remember his name.
So there was a student andthere was also.
There was a student that youmentioned who was deported.
But there was also who I'mthinking about A father, a legal
resident of the United States,a taxpaying citizen.
Speaker 1 (03:40):
Wasn't father.
Didn't they figure out thatthat was a mistake?
Speaker 2 (03:43):
They did figure out that it was a mistake.
They did figure out that it wasa mistake.
They were told by the supremecourt to bring him back.
He's still not back.
Okay, and they're saying, oh,he's in el salvador, where we
shipped him to, but we can'tfind him.
This, the el salvadorianpresident, he's not going to be
sending him back.
I, I, I wish, I number one thatit didn't happen.
Speaker 1 (04:04):
Right.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
And number two, that there wasn't some sort of
attempt to cover it up or todownplay it.
And then three, I wish that wewould just go down there and get
them.
Excuse me, el Salvador, we madea mistake, why won't?
Speaker 1 (04:22):
the president of El Salvador, send them back.
Speaker 2 (04:25):
There is no incentive , right?
So the president of El Salvadorhas to continue the line that
this legal citizen, this legalimmigrant, this non-criminal, he
doesn't have a criminal record,this guy is a criminal.
He has to continue that line.
This guy is a criminal.
He has to continue that linebecause, right now, the last
(04:46):
thing you want to do, obviously,if you're the president of El
Salvador, is tick off the guy inthe White House.
Speaker 1 (04:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:58):
Which alternates?
Speaker 1 (05:00):
between Elon Musk and Donald Trump.
Speaker 2 (05:08):
So if he sends him back back he's considered a
criminal?
No, if he said, my point is, ifthe salvadoran president sends
him back, then he would have toadmit that that guy is not a
criminal, that he has notviolated the law of the united
states or that he entered assalvador illegally, and that
would make trump wrong oh, andit's a pride thing exactly okay.
(05:29):
Yes, yes, that would make theadministration's policy wrong.
It would be admitting that thiswas a failure, and so the last
thing you want to do is is doexactly that.
So it's unfortunate, but for me, at least, that's.
That's what.
But, to the point, in terms ofreligious liberty and people
being able to do things and saythings, as a Christian, that you
(05:50):
just wouldn't be able to do,this is one of those things.
Like we, we clearly have amistake here.
We clearly have a problem here.
There's something that isclearly illegal and instead of
Christians, the Christian churchsaying now wait a minute,
because see when we voted, youknow, to tackle illegal
(06:13):
immigration, we didn't vote tostart kicking out non-criminals
and illegal residents.
Speaker 1 (06:20):
I did.
Speaker 2 (06:21):
Oh, right, right, I forgot about that.
You did Joking, but we didn'twe.
We didn't vote for that, wedidn't expect that.
That wasn't on the menu, right?
So as a christian, as abeliever, I want to see those
kids have their dad back.
I want to see that familyrestored.
Yeah, and that can't happenuntil he comes back home, a home
(06:46):
that he should have never beendrug out from in the first place
I do have to make it clear thatI I was joking.
Speaker 1 (06:52):
I didn't vote for legal immigrants to be um, and
yes, I agree that I would alsolike them to have their father
back.
Yeah, especially as a christianwhen we talk about how
important the family value.
Speaker 2 (07:06):
Father role is yes, yes so so is the mother.
But like in this, case thefather's, in this case the
father's missing.
So now we're, what we're sayingis we're we're willing to let
these kids grow without a father.
Because of his ego the guy inthe white, of his ego, the guy
in the White House, his ego.
We want to protect his pride,his ego.
Speaker 1 (07:28):
But is that 100% what's happening or is this
propaganda?
That is 100% what's happening?
Speaker 2 (07:33):
You can't tell me that we can go into two
countries and fight wars at onceand get Osama bin Laden and get
Saddam Hussein and can't find aUS resident in the asylum.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
To be fair, that was a different presidency, though
that was.
Maybe Trump isn't as good atthese operations, y'all said he
was going to be the best ever.
Speaker 2 (07:56):
I thought we was making America great again.
Speaker 1 (07:57):
I never said he was going to be the best ever I
thought we was making Americagreat again.
Speaker 2 (08:00):
So let's get back to greatness and let's bring this
father home.
And I think, at the end of theday, for me, this is just one of
those areas where, as aChristian, as a believer, it's
like we can't speak out and saythat's wrong.
It's clearly wrong and we needto rectify it.
Speaker 1 (08:26):
Christianity has become so politicized now, oh,
100% when if you questionanything on any political side
all of a sudden.
If, for example, if I questionanything about conservatism, all
of a sudden I'm a ragingatheist liberal.
Speaker 2 (08:44):
Oh 100%.
Speaker 1 (08:46):
That's just how it goes nowadays.
So I think part of it is thatfear of if I were to I mean I'm
not afraid to say that he shouldbe brought back I can, I'm
saying that right now If I wereto say that around conservatives
, well, this, they'd saysomething.
Speaker 2 (09:03):
So what about isms?
Speaker 1 (09:04):
So what about isms?
So what about isms?
And then, all of a sudden, Iwould be labeled as leftists and
I'm a socialist and all youknow, and and that's my point,
right, right you can't evendefine what marxism is there is.
We have to admit that our partyis screwing up on this one
(09:29):
Screwing up.
Speaker 2 (09:30):
We're all screwing up , but we won't Even.
Besides that, though because Iwell, I don't mind beating up on
any political party I sort ofthink it goes beyond that,
because I feel like this is acase again, obama.
I am born and raised inSouthwest Detroit, and Southwest
(09:51):
Detroit is very Close to, andit's full of, hispanic folks.
We got Mexican town, we gotPuerto Ricans, we got Mexican
food.
I mean, it is, it is just it.
It wasn't a surprise to see aMexican flag waving where I come
from, and that was just it.
And in those neighborhoods Obamawas known as the deporter in
(10:16):
chief, because at the time,obama deported more Undocumented
immigrants than any otherpresident in American history at
the time.
So he was always known, in myneighborhood at least, as a
deporter-in-chief.
Wow.
Now Republicans don't want toadmit that, but when it came to
(10:39):
tackling illegal immigration orundocumented immigration, obama
was at the forefront of that.
Now, fast forward in terms ofthat.
Obama went out here trying tobe our pastor, and nobody was
saying that Obama was going tobe our pastor, our
(10:59):
pastor-in-chief, right?
Nobody thought Obama was thesecond coming of Jesus Christ,
except Sean Hannity, whocouldn't seem to get enough
about talking about him andaddressing President Obama as
the anointed one.
Speaker 1 (11:14):
Sean Hannity.
Sean Hannity, isn't he aright-wing talking head?
Speaker 2 (11:20):
Yeah, talking head.
Speaker 1 (11:22):
That's surprising.
Speaker 2 (11:23):
Right.
But whether you think that iswrong or right, my point is
Christians expected that from aman who was clearly not a
Christian.
According to the, I believethat Obama is a Christian, but
(11:44):
my point is the largerevangelical circle does not
think Obama is a Christian tothis day.
They think he's a Muslim.
Speaker 1 (11:53):
Well, with that middle name, With that middle
name.
Speaker 2 (11:56):
See, that's where it's been wrong.
And then you tell me he's fromKenya.
No, no, no, we know whereyou're from and it ain't from
Kenya.
Now, we can't talk about andcan't name no other country up
over there, but we know it ain'tKenya.
Speaker 1 (12:10):
Yeah, I thought it was just Africa.
Speaker 2 (12:12):
Right, right Now.
Don't be lying to us.
We don't know what that is, butno, he was able to say the
things that he said and hewasn't held to a Christian
standard because we neverprophesied him to be the one who
Jesus sent his ascent, if notthe second coming of Jesus
(12:51):
Christ with orange hair, thistime is saying and doing things
under the banner of Christianity.
That does not representChristianity.
Well, and I'm not saying thathe has to, because I think all
of us, we all have fallen shortof the glory and if you look at
any one of us individually, wedo not represent the gospel.
Well, that said, I never showedup at your church and said
(13:14):
please vote for me so I canrestore religious rights and
religious liberty, because we'vebeen attacked.
I never showed up at yourchurch and said vote for me so
we can say Merry Christmas again, as if we somehow were
prevented from saying MerryChristmas, right, and so we are
holding him to a differentstandard because he is a
(13:34):
Christian.
I just did not expect thatstandard to be so low that we
allow it like these things tohappen and be afraid to speak up
against it and say I can stilllove you, I can still vote for
you, and this is wrong because,as a Christian, the kingdom of
(13:55):
God is here.
The United States of Americawill always be here.
It's either our Bible is ourguiding light and our roadmap to
life, or the Constitution.
It cannot be both.
Speaker 1 (14:11):
Yeah, because I don't think you can, I might get in
trouble.
I don't think you can reallyrule or run a nation using the
Bible, because I think somethings require worldly responses
, such as wars or that part likethere's.
(14:31):
No, I don't think god has everordained a modern war.
The ones in the bible, thosewere all him telling the
israelites do this, or when hewas punishing Israel with the
Babylonians that kind of thingthat was all brought on by him.
But I don't want to get too farinto this.
But like the Revolutionary Waris not a Christian war Right,
(14:55):
manifest destiny.
Speaker 2 (14:56):
Jesus did not come down and tell nobody to do that.
Yeah, and to that point as well, we can have a government that
is solely based on the Bible,and we've seen that in the Bible
government established by God,ran by God.
(15:19):
Our problem as humans is that wejust want a king, we want a
human king and so everygovernment that we try to
establish, by God, for God,through God to God, we end up at
the point where we say, okay,god, we get it.
(15:42):
Blah, blah, blah, we want aking, and then we start
listening to that king more thanwe start listening to our God.
And so, to that point, no, Idon't think that God has
established any moderngovernment, because that would
(16:03):
be God saying well, forget aboutmy kingdom, here go yours,
that's not God, because we haveexalted our own government, our
own constitution, our ownpolitical leaders on both sides
of the aisle, above God.
We've exalted our constitution.
(16:24):
I know people who claim to beChristian, by the way, because
that's what we're talking aboutwho carry a United States
constitution in paper form andain't got a paper Bible.
Really, really, how'd thathappen?
How'd that work?
Speaker 1 (16:45):
They claim to be Christian, claim to be Christian
, and I mean devout Christian.
Speaker 2 (16:49):
Full of the Holy Ghost.
Speaker 1 (16:51):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (16:52):
Going to church speaking in tongues and ain't
got a paper Bible, but they gota paper constitution because
they want to let you know thatthey American through and
through.
Speaker 1 (17:05):
Yeah.
It is weird, how manyChristians have idolized America
.
Speaker 2 (17:14):
My point.
Speaker 1 (17:15):
Patriotism is equal to Christianity.
Speaker 2 (17:18):
Christianity and that has never been.
And now that we've all talkedabout the bad things in terms of
that, there obviously is somegood.
I love the United States ofAmerica.
I'm proud to be an Americancitizen.
I will never be more proud tobe an American citizen than I am
(17:38):
to be a believer to be acitizen of heaven and that, to
me, that is the goal.
That is the goal.
Like heaven and earth shallpass away, but my word should
never pass away.
So anything that you arebuilding on, whether it's in
Washington DC or whether it's inMoscow, you name it Anything
(18:03):
that you are building on that isnot the word of god is just
sinking sand and we'reessentially wasting our time.
But in the midst of wasting ourtime, I need to make sure, as a
believer, because I think thisis a.
This is the point.
This is the part in not justAmerican history but in world
(18:24):
history, where Christians twobillion of us where Christians,
we can have an impact on theculture and not just be
consumers of the culture.
But we could be saying the bigC church could be saying there
are things that we havetolerated from governments, from
(18:45):
ourselves, for so long thatdoes not align with the word of
God and we ain't taking it nomore.
So if you want to fly up underthe banner of Christianity, be
my guest, but do not use ourBible twisted.
Speak good words, smoothtalking words in our ear for our
(19:09):
vote, for our money or for ourattention yeah, and I would say
that a lot of politicians haveused that throughout the years
100 and we should stop it.
We should stop it.
We should stop it and not tobring her up.
Do you know who I'm talkingabout when I say her?
I don't think I do Candy, candy, candy Soans, oh, oh.
(19:40):
I love all God's children.
Some of them be hard to love.
Speaker 1 (19:44):
She's Catholic, just some of them be hard to love.
She's Catholic now, is she?
Her husband is Catholic, and soI think she converted to it
Since when.
So she is no longer a child ofGod.
Speaker 2 (19:57):
Oh no, she can't be.
Speaker 1 (19:59):
Since when?
I think it was last year.
Don't quote me.
I just know that she'saffirming like she's Catholic
adjacent, at the very leastBecause her husband is.
Speaker 2 (20:12):
Catholic Lord.
Speaker 1 (20:13):
And also I don't want to talk about how she's
Christian when she has AndrewTate on and affirms him.
Speaker 2 (20:18):
That's true.
Speaker 1 (20:19):
It's one thing to have him on and rebuke him and
debate him on his beliefs.
But if you're just having himon because he's anti-woke, Okay,
that's where I was going next.
Speaker 2 (20:28):
So she's been, she's had a reformation, if you can
call it that.
I believe all of us can comeback to Jesus and be redeemed
and healed.
Speaker 1 (20:35):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:36):
I do too.
Now she says she didn't have areformation.
She's talking about she don'tlike Trump, like that no more,
because she's focused on theBible and Trump does not live in
by the Bible.
This, this whole administration, all this this is too much.
Speaker 1 (20:50):
Yeah and okay.
That's not the worst thing thatyou could say, that's my point
Now.
Speaker 2 (20:56):
I never, ever thought I would be agreeing with
something that she would say,and she's getting a lot of
pushback.
Speaker 1 (21:07):
I know yeah, probably from conservatives.
Speaker 2 (21:08):
From conservatives, yeah, I mean, come on, candy.
We told you you black numberone, so that's, that's, that was
your strike one.
And we told you if you don'tcontinue to push that party line
, you go mess up your money.
Nah, she done went and she donetried to mess up her money, but
she said it's for the Lord.
(21:29):
My point, though.
My point, though, is she'staken a stand that she believes
biblical.
There's some solid biblicalfoundations, and instead of
Christians saying, hmm, yeah,let me check my own faith, let
(21:50):
me check my own beliefs, we havedecided to fall on the lines of
political, the political lines.
Speaker 1 (21:57):
That's what I was saying, and it's terrible If I
question anything Trump does allof a sudden.
I'm not a Christian anymore andI'm I'm just in love with
Russia and all that they standfor or whatever.
Speaker 2 (22:13):
Sometimes it's like it's.
It's very hard as a I don'tknow who.
I told this the other day butsometimes it's hard to minister,
even to people our age and inour peer group the day.
But sometimes it's hard tominister even to people our age
and in our peer group becausethe loudest voices in the room
are the most toxic.
Speaker 1 (22:34):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:34):
And so they're reading the book that we want
them to read the Bible.
They're quoting the scriptures.
Speaker 1 (22:42):
Yeah, but are they reading the whole thing in
context?
Speaker 2 (22:44):
Absolutely not, which is why I am—how can I put this?
Because I don't want to offendnobody here because there is
value in all messages that arebiblical, that are founded on
the Bible, on the Bible.
(23:09):
That being said, I'm becomingincreasingly disillusioned with
the more topical preaching thatis you choose your topic, you
choose your scriptures, you putit together and then you deliver
it.
Speaker 1 (23:21):
Yeah, I would say that you said that there's value
.
Speaker 2 (23:26):
I think there's value in it.
Speaker 1 (23:28):
I do too sometimes, but I also think there are
topical messages that areabsolutely dangerous.
Speaker 2 (23:34):
Do not, and that's where I feel like the situation
has just gotten out of hand.
I don't know if there's acommittee meeting that I missed,
but I missed this vote becauseI didn't vote for this.
A meeting that I miss, but Imissed this vote because I
didn't vote for this where weare using the Bible to support
our opinions, because that'swhat sometimes topical preaching
feel like instead of preachingthe Bible.
(23:54):
That's one Number two.
Of course, we talked about thisnot too long ago.
I like learning the Bible incontext.
Speaker 1 (24:02):
Well, I mean, that's how it should be, that's how it
should be.
Speaker 2 (24:04):
Where is Paul?
What is he talking, paul?
What is he talking about?
What is he doing?
I want to know all of that.
Who is he writing to?
Who's carrying the message?
Yeah, that's important.
We were going over church.
I went to on Sunday.
That was an amazing sermon, andnot just because the guy
preaching was my father-in-law,but because I genuinely thought
(24:26):
it was an amazing sermon.
He preached Romans 16.
And he broke it down in a waythat, honestly, I don't think
I've ever heard a preacherpreach that.
Speaker 1 (24:40):
Romans is after Acts right.
Yes, okay, because we just wentthrough Acts 16.
Speaker 2 (24:45):
Amen.
And so he preached Romans 16and he broke it down and he
talked about all of the womenthat were named in Romans 16.
Speaker 1 (24:58):
And literally, Must be a very liberal church.
Speaker 2 (25:00):
That's the thing.
The whole time he was up there.
When I tell you, the hair onthe back of my neck was standing
.
Speaker 1 (25:09):
I was like— Because it was so moving.
Speaker 2 (25:11):
No, it was more like we don't do that.
We don't—no, we don't preachlike this anymore, especially
when you're talking about theBible supports women carrying
the message of Jesus Christ.
No, no, no.
You can't be preaching likethat.
No, absolutely not.
You can't be up on that wayanymore.
We done voted for our king.
(25:33):
We living in a handmaid's tale.
You're supposed to be preachingthat only men can preach and
lead congregations.
Speaker 1 (25:48):
Well, I think that the lead pastor should be a man
Now see, that's a differenttopic.
I don't think there's.
I think it's fine ifmissionaries are women or
they're, but a missionary?
Speaker 2 (26:00):
can't be a man.
Speaker 1 (26:02):
They can't be Evangelizing on the corner.
Speaker 2 (26:04):
a woman, that's's fine, but like the lead pastor
at a church so you want thewomen's out there on the corner
instead of the strong means.
Speaker 1 (26:11):
I want both so the means could be a missionary.
Yes, I'm saying the men can bemissionary to, I'm saying the
lead pastor okay, so can thewoman have any other role?
Speaker 2 (26:24):
Youth pastor Youth pastor.
Speaker 1 (26:26):
I think it's fine if a woman is teaching the children
.
Speaker 2 (26:29):
So you think it's fine if a woman can teach my
kids but she can't teach meCorrect.
I guess that makes sense.
They don't make sense.
I'm sorry.
I feel like for for me, rightCause I can, I can read it for
myself, I can break it out, Ican understand, I can study and
all of that.
But if I am entrusting you withmy kids, then by nature I feel
(26:57):
like I should be able to entrustyou with myself.
And you can't teach my kidsnothing.
You can't teach me.
That's how, that's how I teachme, that's how I feel.
That's how you feel.
I refuse to like for me if I'magainst women preaching or
(27:18):
anything of that sort, becausethere are some people who are
against women preaching.
But you didn't say preaching,you just said lead pastor.
But if I am against womenpreacher and women leading the
church as a lead pastor, then Idon't want women teaching my
kids.
Speaker 1 (27:36):
Well, I think that's different, because children are
Gullible, not as yeah, not asdeveloped as us.
Speaker 2 (27:43):
Not as developed.
So why would I leave somethingthat God has entrusted to me
that is not as yeah, not asdeveloped as us?
Not as developed.
So why would I leave somethingthat god has entrusted to me
that is not as developed in thehands of somebody who could take
it in the wrong direction?
Speaker 1 (27:58):
I don't know, I don't fully understand why the Bible
says that women can't teach thecongregation.
Speaker 2 (28:07):
Where did you say that?
Speaker 1 (28:09):
I think it's in Timothy.
Speaker 2 (28:10):
Oh we can read Timothy when Paul says I permit
not a woman to teach.
Why is Paul saying that?
Well, you seem to know.
Why is Paul saying I?
Well, you seem to know.
No, I want to ask you why isPaul saying I permit?
Speaker 1 (28:26):
not a woman to teach.
So he says, because in thegarden Eve was uh persuaded by
the devil, and then shepersuaded Adam.
Speaker 2 (28:37):
Right, we know that's what happened.
Speaker 1 (28:39):
So I think today that would translate to women
generally are more susceptibleto being driven to emotions.
This does not mean that mencannot be, but women are
generally more susceptible tobeing driven by emotions.
It's just in their nature,which I think is good, but it's
not in the context of teachingmen who are to become leaders
(29:02):
when they're adults.
Oh, okay.
Speaker 2 (29:05):
So no, I'm not a theologian.
Speaker 1 (29:07):
I also think that it also ties into James.
When James says many of youshouldn't teach because you're
going to be judged harsher and Ithink that that burden should
be on men.
Speaker 2 (29:23):
We can go come back to that, because I felt like you
were going in the rightdirection.
I was about about to say amen,but that's why I got to hold my
amen.
That'd be my problem sometimesfor real.
For real in church, well, Idon't be holding my amens and
I'll be done saying amen andthen the pastor follow up with
something I don't agree with.
And now I got to stay silent,look around and hope.
Speaker 1 (29:38):
Where did, where did, where did I go that?
Speaker 2 (29:41):
it was that last part where you said I think the
burden should be on men and notwomen.
Speaker 1 (29:51):
Yeah, why is that wrong?
I'm going to get back to thatIf men want to be the strong
leaders that they claim theywant to be.
They should take that burden on.
Speaker 2 (30:01):
I'm not saying that it would be wrong, obviously, of
a man to take on that burden ofleadership.
What I'm saying is that mencan't do it at the expense of
women, because women were alsoleading the early church.
(30:23):
When Paul is talking, we justgot done reading Romans 16.
Speaker 1 (30:26):
Yeah, but how often were they leading?
There's one example in theBible.
Speaker 2 (30:30):
There's one example in the Bible One example that
literally changed the course ofhistory, if you think.
Speaker 1 (30:36):
Paul was Jesus.
Speaker 2 (30:37):
Christ.
If you think Paul was JesusChrist going into what is now
modern-day Turkey to preach byhimself, then absolutely not.
That's ridiculous.
Speaker 1 (30:48):
He's not Jesus and also, I never said he was going
by himself.
Speaker 2 (30:52):
No, no, no, my point is.
My point is Paul says and hepoints out the women who were
instrumental in the ministryduring his time and he
explicitly states their effecton the ministry and he
explicitly states how effectivethey were in building the early
(31:14):
church in the places that Pauldid not reach but he could only
write to.
And when Paul left those placesthat he could reach, paul
explicitly states that womenwere instrumental in that.
Speaker 1 (31:27):
When Paul mentions women in his writings let's read
Romans 16.
Speaker 2 (31:32):
But when Paul mentions women in his writings
or couples in his writings, ninetimes out of 10, he mentions
the female first.
Speaker 1 (31:42):
That doesn't mean that they were the leader.
Speaker 2 (31:46):
I believe that every word in the Bible means
something and the way that it'sstructured.
Speaker 1 (31:51):
There is no reason.
No, no, no.
This is what I'm saying.
Speaker 2 (31:54):
I'm not putting nothing in Paul's mouth.
What I'm saying is there is noincentive to include women in
the book they don't have a placein creating.
There's no incentive for Paulto be writing so highly about
women in his time, in his day.
Speaker 1 (32:12):
Just because he's writing highly of them doesn't
mean that they were the leadpastor of that congregation.
Speaker 2 (32:17):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (32:17):
Or does it say that?
Speaker 2 (32:18):
Okay.
Acts of the Apostles 2 and 17,.
The last days, I will pour outmy spirit upon all people.
Wait, what is this?
Acts of the Apostles?
This is Acts 2 and 17.
In the last days, god says Iwill pour out my spirit upon all
people.
Your sons and your daughterswill prophesy.
Why are our daughtersprophesying?
Speaker 1 (32:38):
Prophesying is not the same as teaching.
Okay, I didn't say theycouldn't prophesy, okay, okay
let's, let's go here.
Speaker 2 (32:48):
What is prophesying?
Speaker 1 (32:50):
it is a word from god .
Why is?
Speaker 2 (32:54):
god speaking to a woman to prophesy and we would
believe a woman because heardirectly from god to prophesy
but that same woman cannot heardirectly from God to teach us a
lesson Teaching isn't.
Speaker 1 (33:12):
you're not here, I don't think you hear directly
from God and then you teach amessage.
What they doing.
I think prophesying can bewords of encouragement.
It could be hey, the Lord putthis verse on my heart to tell
you today.
Those are examples.
When you're preaching, you arepreaching the word of God in its
context.
You're not saying God, give methis message for this Sunday.
(33:32):
That's not how it works,because those ones always get
blown way out of proportion andget screwed up.
Speaker 2 (33:37):
Okay, I see where our difference is here.
We disagree on what prophesyingis, I think, what you just said
, words of encouragement andthings of that sort that could
just be on your heart.
People are just full ofencouragement and joy.
So we agree there, right, goddidn't ordain you, he didn't
wake you up out of your sleep,or they could prophesy and hey,
you're doing something wrong.
Speaker 1 (33:57):
Right, that's my point.
The Lord put something on myheart.
Speaker 2 (33:59):
Prophesying is hearing from God.
Prophesying is speakingdirectly from God's mouth to
God's people.
In the Bible, prophesying wasusually doom and destruction is
coming.
Get your life right, you knowprophesying.
Speaker 1 (34:14):
Yeah, I don't think that it necessarily changed.
It could still mean that.
Speaker 2 (34:18):
It can still mean that 100%.
There are some prophets outthere, I believe, who are saying
repent, repent, repent.
The kingdom of heaven is athand.
Repent, repent, repent 100 yeahwhat I'm saying is I don't
think that god would give awoman my daughter the ability I
don't bring the emotions into it.
Speaker 1 (34:38):
My daughter, he said your son oh okay, you're saying
like my, as in god, yes, okay, Ithought you were talking about,
like if you had a daughter?
No, no, no, no.
Speaker 2 (34:47):
I don't have any daughters, but my point is I
don't.
I find it hard for me tobelieve that God would be
allowing the woman to prophesyand not teach.
Speaker 1 (35:01):
But teaching in this context, as you are leading an
entire congregation.
Those are the sheep and you areresponsible for them.
Speaker 2 (35:11):
In many places, not to backtrack, but in many places
where we see, especially inCorinthians, where Paul is
saying let your woman keepsilent, in the church right,
where Paul is saying that inmany of those places he's
speaking directly to that church, that particular congregation,
because there's a lot ofriffraff going on, there's a
whole lot of hoopla right.
Speaker 1 (35:34):
Yeah, that's not the verses I was referring to, but
my point is.
Speaker 2 (35:38):
I can understand where you're coming from in that
, because Paul is having thesame problem with the church at
Corinth, where there's somedisagreement and, instead of the
men getting together andfiguring it out and just putting
the stake in the ground,there's a lot of kerfuffle and
confusion that is aided by thewomen in the church right.
(36:01):
Paul is speaking directly tothem.
So I can understand your lineof reasoning that women
shouldn't be able to lead achurch.
What I'm saying is I vehementlydisagree with that and
(36:25):
scripture does not back that upplace that I can believe that
women can prophesy but can'tteach, I can't get there.
I can't lead again.
Speaker 1 (36:43):
I just mean the main congregation, the lead pastor
Sunday sermon in the mainsanctuary well, I think, I think
lead pastors don't necessarilyhave to preach.
Speaker 2 (36:58):
But to your point, in the case that the lead pastor
is 9-7-10, the one who waspreaching.
Speaker 1 (37:04):
We're just going to disagree on this.
I disagreed with Bronson whenhe came on too.
Speaker 2 (37:08):
What did Bronson say?
I don't remember, it was solong ago.
Speaker 1 (37:13):
It was just like a quick thing, and then, once the
episode was done, we discussedmore after that.
Speaker 2 (37:21):
Before we button this up and get back to what we were
talking about, and that isreligious liberty, can I just
read I also want anybody who'slistening.
Speaker 1 (37:28):
If you're on Spotify, you can comment or YouTube.
Comment what you think.
Can women preach, can they not?
I just want to know otherpeople's opinions.
Thanks, you continue.
Speaker 2 (37:40):
I, just before we button this up, I really just
want to read Romans, chapter 16.
Speaker 1 (37:45):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (37:46):
And I'm reading out of the NLT version so hopefully
nobody casts me in the hell.
Speaker 1 (37:52):
NLT, it ain't the KJV .
No, the KJV.
I don't think the KJV is thatgood.
I like ESV, oh ESV.
Speaker 2 (38:01):
You might be going to hell.
Why is that?
I don't know.
People told me, lawrence, yougonna go to hell.
The ESV on your phone.
Speaker 1 (38:09):
ESV is like a word for word that's what I said.
It's like the KJV, but it'seasier to understand.
Speaker 2 (38:14):
That's what I said, and it was like hellfire,
brimstone.
Yeah, well, whatever.
Okay.
Romans 16 I commend to you oursister Phoebe, who is a deacon
in the church of Centraea.
I can't pronounce all thechurch.
You understand why I speakEbonics, that's my native tongue
.
Welcome her in the Lord as onewho is worthy of honor among
(38:39):
God's people.
Help her in whatever she needs,for she has been helpful to
many, and especially me.
Give my greetings to priscilla,woman, and aquila, my co-workers
.
Paul didn't call them servants,he didn't say assistants.
He didn't say they helped meout to get my robe and my water
and my towel, because you know,I preach heavy.
(38:59):
He said these are my co-workersin the ministry of christ jesus
.
In fact, they once risked theirlives for me.
I'm so thankful for them, andso are all the Gentile churches.
Okay, okay, we're going to moveon.
Give my greetings to Mary, whohas worked so hard for your
benefit.
I'm sure I don't know how hetalked.
Greet Adronicus and Junia, myfellow Jews who were in prison
(39:26):
with me.
They are highly respected amongthe apostles.
Wait, junia is a woman.
Hold on.
Why she?
Why she respected among theapostles and became followers of
Christ before I did.
Wait a minute, paul, okay, holdon.
Speaker 1 (39:43):
Wait, let's watch.
Okay, well, romans 16 is goingto be obviously something I
didn't read that much into.
And it's going to have to besomething that I researched,
because there may have been areason as to why, but why?
In Timothy does he say I permitnot a woman to teach, because
in the garden Eve, I forgot howhe words it Right.
(40:05):
Right, eve was deceived andthen she deceived Adam, and is
it?
Speaker 2 (40:10):
before or after?
Paul says that when a womanprophesies that she should have
a covering, is it before orafter that?
I told you I'm not a theologian, but I know Paul instructs
women to have a covering, Ithink.
Speaker 1 (40:24):
Timothy is after Corinthians.
Speaker 2 (40:26):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (40:26):
Because the covering is in Corinthians mostly, I
believe, okay.
Speaker 2 (40:30):
Number one.
Now, I'm not saying this to beheretical, so please don't cast
me into hell, although I knowyou can't, but Paul wasn't the
best speaker.
We know that he wasn't the bestspeaker when you read his
writings.
We've broken down, of course,the whole Bible into chapters
and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, but they're all one letter,
right.
So think of all of thoseletters from Paul as one letter,
(40:51):
one run along sentence.
And if you ever read his stuffin depth and clearly, he rambles
, paul rambles.
He can't seem to stay on thesubject for too long.
He goes off subject.
He goes off subject, he has anaside, then he comes back it was
a mistake.
No, I don't think it was amistake, but what I'm saying is
he's talking to a specificpeople in a specific time about
(41:15):
a specific issue.
What he is definitely notsaying is that women should not
have that role, that womenshould not lead, that women do
not have a place as coworkersamong men, because if that be
the case, then that wouldcontradict all of the other
instances where he identifiedwomen as his coworkers.
(41:37):
So it's either Paul got amnesiaor dementia or something like
that.
So we need to stop reading hiswriting because obviously he
ain't all together.
Speaker 1 (41:49):
Or we believe it all, or it could be that when there
wasn't as many believers, theyneeded them, and then later on,
when the church was moreestablished, that's when they
decide that he says that theleader should be.
Speaker 2 (42:05):
Yeah.
At what part in history do youthink there was more men than
women?
What?
At what part in human historydo you think there were more men
and women besides Cain and Abel?
Speaker 1 (42:21):
I was saying in the Christian faith, maybe in that,
wherever he was, where they wereall coming to Christ maybe it
was more women came to Christand he needed their help at that
time.
Speaker 2 (42:33):
So he don't need their help, no more.
Speaker 1 (42:35):
No, he still does.
I think that that was beforethe church was established.
Speaker 2 (42:39):
I think in the context of church and leading an
entire congregation, it'sdifferent than evangelizing or
prophesying which Paul couldn'thave spoken to, because what we
look at as the church today,where we're going to a building
(42:59):
that has a staff that didn'texist.
Church was in people's housesback in Paul's day, so Paul
couldn't have spoken tosomething.
Speaker 1 (43:10):
I thought Peter established the first church.
Speaker 2 (43:13):
Upon this rock I will build my church.
Jesus is not saying a physicalbuilding.
Jesus is not saying I'm goingto set up a temple and I'm going
to have our stained glasswindows.
Somebody call Michelangelo upover here to get us some
paintings up in here, someangels, and somebody call I
(43:34):
don't know somebody from Europewith blonde hair so he can
represent me and be in all ofthe pictures and stuff like that
.
That's not what Jesus wassaying and stuff like that.
That's not what Jesus wassaying.
Jesus was saying I am buildingmy church on the faith that
Peter has, on the service thatPeter has, not the physical
building.
Speaker 1 (43:52):
Well, you just dismantled the entire Catholic
church by saying that it is whatit is.
Anyway, this is not what I'vepersonally heard from my church
yet.
Uh, this is just like youtubeand research, so it's something
I'd have to research more, but Iam going to stand firm in what
I believe for now, because youshould okay, because you know I
(44:17):
like somebody who can stand firmand what they believe, but my
what.
Speaker 2 (44:21):
I do know about you, though, but I do know about you
and I hope that we respect eachother in this light that when we
have gotten to a point where wehave heard from God or we have
researched enough, we havetalked to enough people, where
it's clear that we're wrong, weadmit that we're wrong.
Speaker 1 (44:38):
I feel like you're putting that on my side a little
bit more.
Speaker 2 (44:42):
I'm not putting that on your side at all, because,
let me tell you, this issomething that I continuously
look into myself.
Yeah, because it's a difficultone, and it's in our culture,
right, it's in our culture.
The man is the head of thehouse, right, I am to lead my
family and things of that sort,and I have always heard in every
denomination that women shouldnot be leading church, they
(45:05):
should not be pastoring, and insome denominations they should
not be preaching, right, so theycan't even take, you know, the
podium at some churches.
So no, it exists, it is outthere.
I've been in church all of mylife, so I have known that this
exists.
So this is definitely somethingthat I look into and what I
(45:28):
cannot as I said earlier, Icannot bring myself to the
conclusion.
The first time I heard aboutGod was through a woman, was
through a woman.
Again, I didn't say that waswrong.
No, no, no.
I'm not saying that.
What I'm saying is I'm making apoint, that is, that I cannot
get to a place where I think godwould orchestrate that and
(45:51):
allow that, because I believethat he does, that he will allow
that and not allow a woman toto teach or to lead a
congregation again to that point.
Speaker 1 (46:04):
It's just like agree to disagree at this point.
I know you.
I know you're really trying toget me.
Speaker 2 (46:09):
I'm not trying to get you to say I'm camera, no, no
no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,no, no no no, no wrong, I'm
never gonna let you appear to beoutside of the box, so so
that's fine if I appear that wayto these, to anybody's
listening, it's not fine, pleasedon't hate me if I have my
points are bad.
Speaker 1 (46:29):
I tried my best.
But again, say in the commentswhat you guys think and back it
up biblically too, because Idon't want just emotions well,
no, we both have biblical.
Speaker 2 (46:40):
Well, yeah, I know I'm saying like people who are
going to be commenting.
Speaker 1 (46:44):
Okay, if, if it's just like yeah, I think that
women can't be preachers, I justthink that's a bad answer.
Yeah, back it up.
Back up, like go through theRomans 16, because that's a good
point.
I've never really like lookedfar, looked too into it, because
I can't look into every singlepart of the Bible all the time
who can, but now that's going tobe a section that I am going to
(47:06):
be for a while.
Speaker 2 (47:07):
Re-romans, re-pause all of paul's writing, and
you'll see how many times hementions women in their effect.
To be fair, though, I had readover the whole priscilla and
aquila, because he also mentionsthem in other writings as well,
and every time I read overpriscilla and aquila I just
automatically thought that theywere men.
Really, yeah, I don't know, I'mjust well, they named me and
(47:33):
priscilla back in the back inthe day how do you not know that
priscilla is a?
woman whose name is Aquila, so Ifigured there's no.
If Paul is talking aboutPriscilla and Aquila, Aquila
(47:54):
must be a dude and we justchanged the name later on down
the line and so we just talkingabout dudes leading the church,
we just talking about dudesbeing impactful in the ministry
helping Paul out.
Who else going to help Paul out?
Speaker 1 (48:09):
Yeah, exactly that's what.
Speaker 2 (48:10):
I'm trying to say it's got to be the dudes.
So Paul must be tough.
Priscilla and Nicola dudesThank you.
Okay, but yes, oh to the point.
Sorry To the religious liberty.
Speaker 1 (48:25):
Yes, now that we're 50 minutes in, we're back on the
religious liberty.
Speaker 2 (48:34):
Let's button that up, I think.
I think in many instances wehave, we have taken our
religious liberty not only forgranted, but we have used our
religious liberty to cover upour injustice, our sins, our
(48:56):
failures.
And we have felt that, becausewe have the freedom of religion
and we are Christian, that weshould not, cannot and could not
be condemned for our own wrongactions.
(49:17):
And I think it's high time thatChristians start setting a
standard, that Christians startsetting a standard, because we
know what we collectively wantand don't want from people who
are not Christian.
So I'm not talking about them,but I'm talking about us
cleaning house and not eachother, because I think it's very
(49:39):
important to do what the Biblesays, and it is cover one
another.
But I think it's important thatwe start cleaning house
ourselves, that we startchecking ourselves and examining
, re-examining ourselves and ourfaith.
What are the things that?
What are the opinions, theideas, the acts, the everything?
(50:02):
What is it in my life that Ihave allowed, that I have
engaged in, that I have becomecomfortable with?
That is contrary to my faith.
Speaker 1 (50:14):
Yeah, I think that churches need to set higher
standards.
For it to change and if youwant it to bleed into culture
the right way, I think churchesneed to set higher standards.
But the churches that have themost people, mega churches
(50:36):
they're not preaching truebiblical I love Jesus words.
Speaker 2 (50:42):
I mean, well, eventually you lose your
congregation, with the wholebeing nice and Jesus was a
servant, kind of sermons.
So yes, I would agree with thatWell.
Speaker 1 (50:58):
I just mean there's not, and I don't want to be
biased, because at my churchthey do preach about being a
servant.
They do preach about sacrifice.
Of course it's not a perfectchurch no church is but the
majority of churches that I'vegone to in the past mega
churches or like those funchurches they're not preaching
(51:19):
about servanthood or sacrifice.
Most of the time it's hey, youshould give your money and
you'll get more back.
Speaker 2 (51:29):
You know I love a good prosperity message every
now and again.
Speaker 1 (51:33):
But it's just not true.
Speaker 2 (51:35):
We know that.
We know that there are peoplewho literally read the Sur
surgeon general's warning on apack of cigarettes and still
bite and smoke every last one.
Speaker 1 (51:49):
we know that, yeah, but sometimes we go to church to
feel good, I'm already broke,at least preach I need to go to
church, to feel convicted in agood way amen what I'm getting
at is there are people and I'mnot going to say any names that
just constantly complain aboutwhere America's at.
Speaker 2 (52:09):
Oh 100%.
Speaker 1 (52:11):
And they do nothing to change it.
They go home and they'reChristians, self-proclaimed
Christians, and they drinkalcohol, specifically Alcohol,
my lord.
And then they don't even haveto be getting drunk, but it's
like, okay, you want to complainabout america and then come
(52:36):
home and live thisself-indulgent life.
That part, even if it's just alittle buzz, it's still a
self-indulgent life.
You're not living a life ofsacrifice, you're not pouring
into anything that part you'rewatching movies and then all you
do is complain about america.
It's like what have you done?
Speaker 2 (52:56):
in your own sphere of influence and exactly like that
that is usually the the part,usually when we present.
You know, here's a problem,here's the solution.
Um, it seems overwhelming.
It seems overwhelming.
I think.
I think the best thoughtleaders know and understand that
(53:19):
they cannot alone changeculture, change the world.
Speaker 1 (53:26):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (53:27):
I don't care how many people listen to you.
It's not going to be everybodyand there's going to be somebody
out there Hopefully in theUnited States of America, as it
used to exist who will disagreewith you and won't be afraid to
speak up.
But so, yeah, don't try to now.
(53:48):
If the Lord has put it on yourheart and you can change the
world, please go right ahead.
Go right ahead Now.
I know it's only one, jesus,but maybe you think you could be
number two.
So you go right ahead.
And in the meantime, for therest of us, I think God is
requiring of us to have thatimpact on ourselves, on our
(54:10):
house.
One of the reasons why I leanso heavy into the women
preaching and focus it upon thehome is because that is your
first church.
Your home is your first church.
It's going to be hard for youto get up and preach to me if
your house is not in order.
Paul even talked about that.
How are you going to be anelder?
You ain't got your money inorder?
It's very hard.
(54:31):
If your house isn't in order,how can you help us get our
house in order?
That being said, yeah, itstarts with us, it starts at
home and it starts in our sphereof influence.
So maybe your job is not to goout on the street corner, maybe
your job is to not you knowstart a church.
(54:51):
And if you're watching this,please do not say I've been
convicted by what they said upon the podcast.
I'm going down the street andI'm starting a church.
We don't need no more churches.
Speaker 1 (55:02):
Yeah, we need quality churches.
Speaker 2 (55:04):
I am so sorry to be the one to tell you and I love
church.
Like I said, I've been going tochurch all my life.
I love church.
We don't need no more churches.
What we need is more Christians.
What we need is more people whoare with all of their heart
None of us are perfect but withall of their heart, are
following the word of God andwho are, who are trying to
(55:28):
affect the people around them.
According to the word of God,we're not beating up on nobody,
we're not killing nobody, and werefuse to support things that
do not also uplift and glorifyGod, especially if it means
because I got to be a part ofyour group.
In order to be a part of yourgroup, I have to be willing to
(55:53):
to let go of my faith and mybeliefs.
Come on now.
It's not worth it.
Speaker 1 (55:59):
I also wanted to say I I didn't mean that people need
to go evangelize on the cornersno, I know you, I'm just saying
I'm just saying like the, thepeople that complain, it's like
for you could could be.
Your kid is in a badrelationship with somebody and
you need to be honest with themabout it, but you're not.
And then that starts a wholechain reaction because they stay
(56:24):
in this relationship.
What if they have kids withthis person?
That's not good for them.
And then those kids grow up ina not so you know what I'm
saying Not so Christian home,and it's just like it just goes
down the line when it could havebeen stopped by someone saying
this is not good for you.
Speaker 2 (56:43):
This is not good.
Speaker 1 (56:43):
Because honesty really is the best policy, the
best policy.
Speaker 2 (56:48):
I want to give an honorable mention and I don't
like to use names, but I want togive an honorable mention to
Pastor McVeach of KentwoodCommunity Church in Grand Rapids
.
And here's why Pastor McVeachwas a missionary.
Well, once it's in your blood,it's in your blood, it's a
missionary.
Wait, you said he, he.
Speaker 1 (57:08):
Yeah, he's the lead pastor.
Yes, he's the lead pastor.
Speaker 2 (57:11):
Yes, he is All right, he's the lead pastor at
Kentwood Community Church and hewas a missionary overseas and
of course, he talks a lot aboutthat.
But one of the things that hereally focuses on once he got
back stateside and he hascontinued to preach that, and if
you go to Kipwell CommunityChurch, you will experience this
(57:31):
and see this live and in person, and that is being a church of
and for the nations, of and forthe nations.
And when he first came to GrandRapids, I was at a community
church at the time.
He comes to Grand Rapids andhe's like you know, I'm living
(57:57):
in Detroit and blah blah, blahblah and I'm from Detroit.
So my brother, my kinsman,spirit, you know we're part of
Detroit, blah blah blah.
We talked, we talked about allthat and he did something that I
didn't expect for him to do heinvited me to dinner.
Speaker 1 (58:14):
Invited me to dinner as the lead pastor.
He wasn't even the lead pastoryet, okay.
Speaker 2 (58:23):
What was he at the time?
He was just a visiting guy.
He was kind of interviewing forthe job, I guess you could say,
because they had not decidedthat he should be the lead
pastor.
But he invited me for dinnerand he invited me for dinner
Christmas Eve and was it good.
It was delicious.
It was delicious and I wentthere.
(58:44):
Christmas Day I drove toDetroit, visited my family.
Christmas Day I went over andhad dinner with the Veach family
.
Speaker 1 (58:53):
Is that where you met Mickey?
Speaker 2 (58:55):
That's where I met Mickey.
Speaker 1 (58:56):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (58:56):
That's where I met Mickey Veach, who literally
obviously my best friend to thisday.
The thing is, and the point is,that is more ministry than a
lot of pastors and Christiansalike will put in their entire
lifetime.
Speaker 1 (59:14):
That's what I was trying to, yeah.
Speaker 2 (59:17):
That's more ministry.
I mean, yeah, that spokevolumes to me, right.
Speaker 1 (59:22):
And then now look at who you are today.
Speaker 2 (59:26):
I'm not saying that one thing is what made you a
Christian, but but I am sayingthat act right, because I'm
thinking, in order for me tolead people to Christ, you
better get it right right now.
Come on, lift your hands, giveGod some praise.
I'm thinking I got to be likethat, yeah, when in reality,
being a believer and reachingout to people in your sphere of
(59:48):
influence involves inviting themout to dinner.
And of course he could havesaid, because I wouldn't have
done this, to be honest with you, that's how I know he had
better admit, because I'm notinviting nobody.
I don't know, and I mean forthe first time, you're not
coming to the Christmas dinner.
Now you can come to the cookout, you know the Juneteenth
cookout, but you're not comingto the Christmas.
(01:00:10):
The Christmas I want nobodyaround my family, all like that.
We all close and I don't knowif you got, you could have had
the Rona before the Rona waseven here.
I don't know, I don't know youlike that.
But he invited me to his housefor Christmas dinner, a stranger
, somebody that he didn't,somebody he didn't have to do
that for, and to me that isministry.
And so I have definitely triedto in my life invite people out
(01:00:32):
for dinner.
My first time that I met Ronson.
Ronson showed up at the church.
He was looking to be the youthpastor, or the young adults
pastor was.
But I saw him at the church andsomebody had, you know,
introduced me to him and say, oh, you know, he's thinking about
(01:00:56):
being a youth pastor.
I said, ron, so let's go out tolunch.
We went out to lunch First timeI met Christian.
Christian came, said you know,he wanted to work in the youth
ministry, trying to figure outwhere he want to lay, and I said
look, christian, let's go outto lunch Right.
Every time I have learned howto pay that forward because I
have learned through that oneact.
I've learned that that is moreministry than just about
(01:01:17):
anything else I was doing at thetime.
And I think that is where wecan all start in our sphere of
influence.
Invite somebody out for coffee,invite somebody out for dinner.
That's how you spread the loveof Jesus Christ.
That's how you spread thegospel, jesus Christ.
That's how you spread thegospel.
When I was hungry, you fed me.
Don't be giving me the gospeland you can't give me a piece of
bread.
(01:01:37):
That's just me.
But the Lord's still working onmy heart.
But it's hard to listen to youon an empty stomach, okay, if
you see me with a need, okay, Iunderstand.
Jesus died for my sins, but hedidn't die for this light bill.
I got to get these lights on.
I got to get my eggs.
It's too high, okay, I need mean egg sandwich in the morning.
(01:02:01):
Come on somebody Like.
Meet them at their knee, invitethem out, have a conversation,
get to know them.
Then you are spreading thegospel.
You're not spreading the gospelby who you vote for.
You're not spreading the gospelby who you speak against.
You're not spreading the gospelby deporting legal immigrants
who have no felony convictions.
(01:02:23):
We are spreading the gospel oneperson at a time, one to one,
through coffee, through coffeeshops, in our homes, in our
houses where the early churchmet.
Anyway, that's how we do it.
Speaker 1 (01:02:36):
Right on, and I think that's a perfect way to end
this.
That's it so, anyway.
Thanks everybody for listeningAgain, comment what your
opinions are.
Thanks, lawrence, for coming on, of course always, and
everybody.
Have a blessed week.
Bye, love you.
Anyway, for this episode, I think it'd be good to
just jump in.
Speaker 2 (00:03):
Yeah, let's go.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
Because you've already been on here a few times
.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
So people know who you are Religious liberty.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
Religious liberty what exactly is it and how do we
go about doing it?
Speaker 2 (00:15):
Well, religious liberty, for at least most of us
, has come to mean the freedomto practice our religion as we
deem fit.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
Okay, I'm glad you explained that, because I'm
thinking religious liberty wasstuff that Christians can do
that other people might think ofas sin.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
And well, I think that is a very good and common
observation, I feel like, ofpeople outside of Christianity
or you know, who are notreligious, because it usually
seems like Christians can dothings that would not be okay or
normal outside of that.
(01:01):
Outside of that and we see thatin every factor, every section
of our society, from schools topolitics, to music, we see
Christians being able to dothings because they call
themselves Christian.
They're able to do things andget away with saying certain
(01:21):
things that you just would notbe able to do or say if you are
not a Christian.
Speaker 1 (01:30):
Do you have any?
Speaker 2 (01:30):
examples See.
Now you get me into the debate.
Speaker 1 (01:34):
Oh no, I would say— I'm not trying to debate.
No, no, no.
Speaker 2 (01:38):
Well, I already know I'm going to get in trouble with
this, but I don't care aboutthat, with this, but you know, I
don't care about that.
Um, it's, it's one of thethings that I I that's on my
mind right now is umdeportations.
That's one of the things that'son my mind.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
Oh yeah, this would be a good, a good discussion.
So okay, continue.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
And the reason why it's, on my mind, is not because
we shouldn't have some sort ofcomprehensive immigration policy
.
Right, because we've beenillegally deporting legal
(02:27):
immigrants and legal residentsand in the name of what should
be their first amendment rightas guaranteed by the
constitution.
Right, what we've been sayingis, if you are speaking against
the policies of thisadministration or the stances of
(02:52):
this administration, then wehave the right.
The administration is saying wehave the right to revoke your
funding or to deport you in thecase that you are not a United
States citizen by birth.
Speaker 1 (03:08):
Are you referring to the student?
I don't remember his name.
I really don't.
I'm one of the people thatreally doesn't watch the news.
When I say I don't watch it,I'm really not watching it.
I really don't watch it.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
Well, I bet you know his name Well, honestly, I don't
remember his name.
So there was a student andthere was also.
There was a student that youmentioned who was deported.
But there was also who I'mthinking about A father, a legal
resident of the United States,a taxpaying citizen.
Speaker 1 (03:40):
Wasn't father.
Didn't they figure out thatthat was a mistake?
Speaker 2 (03:43):
They did figure out that it was a mistake.
They did figure out that it wasa mistake.
They were told by the supremecourt to bring him back.
He's still not back.
Okay, and they're saying, oh,he's in el salvador, where we
shipped him to, but we can'tfind him.
This, the el salvadorianpresident, he's not going to be
sending him back.
I, I, I wish, I number one thatit didn't happen.
Speaker 1 (04:04):
Right.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
And number two, that there wasn't some sort of
attempt to cover it up or todownplay it.
And then three, I wish that wewould just go down there and get
them.
Excuse me, el Salvador, we madea mistake, why won't?
Speaker 1 (04:22):
the president of El Salvador, send them back.
Speaker 2 (04:25):
There is no incentive , right?
So the president of El Salvadorhas to continue the line that
this legal citizen, this legalimmigrant, this non-criminal, he
doesn't have a criminal record,this guy is a criminal.
He has to continue that line.
This guy is a criminal.
He has to continue that linebecause, right now, the last
(04:46):
thing you want to do, obviously,if you're the president of El
Salvador, is tick off the guy inthe White House.
Speaker 1 (04:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:58):
Which alternates?
Speaker 1 (05:00):
between Elon Musk and Donald Trump.
Speaker 2 (05:08):
So if he sends him back back he's considered a
criminal?
No, if he said, my point is, ifthe salvadoran president sends
him back, then he would have toadmit that that guy is not a
criminal, that he has notviolated the law of the united
states or that he entered assalvador illegally, and that
would make trump wrong oh, andit's a pride thing exactly okay.
(05:29):
Yes, yes, that would make theadministration's policy wrong.
It would be admitting that thiswas a failure, and so the last
thing you want to do is is doexactly that.
So it's unfortunate, but for me, at least, that's.
That's what.
But, to the point, in terms ofreligious liberty and people
being able to do things and saythings, as a Christian, that you
(05:50):
just wouldn't be able to do,this is one of those things.
Like we, we clearly have amistake here.
We clearly have a problem here.
There's something that isclearly illegal and instead of
Christians, the Christian churchsaying now wait a minute,
because see when we voted, youknow, to tackle illegal
(06:13):
immigration, we didn't vote tostart kicking out non-criminals
and illegal residents.
Speaker 1 (06:20):
I did.
Speaker 2 (06:21):
Oh, right, right, I forgot about that.
You did Joking, but we didn'twe.
We didn't vote for that, wedidn't expect that.
That wasn't on the menu, right?
So as a christian, as abeliever, I want to see those
kids have their dad back.
I want to see that familyrestored.
Yeah, and that can't happenuntil he comes back home, a home
(06:46):
that he should have never beendrug out from in the first place
I do have to make it clear thatI I was joking.
Speaker 1 (06:52):
I didn't vote for legal immigrants to be um, and
yes, I agree that I would alsolike them to have their father
back.
Yeah, especially as a christianwhen we talk about how
important the family value.
Speaker 2 (07:06):
Father role is yes, yes so so is the mother.
But like in this, case thefather's, in this case the
father's missing.
So now we're, what we're sayingis we're we're willing to let
these kids grow without a father.
Because of his ego the guy inthe white, of his ego, the guy
in the White House, his ego.
We want to protect his pride,his ego.
Speaker 1 (07:28):
But is that 100% what's happening or is this
propaganda?
That is 100% what's happening?
Speaker 2 (07:33):
You can't tell me that we can go into two
countries and fight wars at onceand get Osama bin Laden and get
Saddam Hussein and can't find aUS resident in the asylum.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
To be fair, that was a different presidency, though
that was.
Maybe Trump isn't as good atthese operations, y'all said he
was going to be the best ever.
Speaker 2 (07:56):
I thought we was making America great again.
Speaker 1 (07:57):
I never said he was going to be the best ever I
thought we was making Americagreat again.
Speaker 2 (08:00):
So let's get back to greatness and let's bring this
father home.
And I think, at the end of theday, for me, this is just one of
those areas where, as aChristian, as a believer, it's
like we can't speak out and saythat's wrong.
It's clearly wrong and we needto rectify it.
Speaker 1 (08:26):
Christianity has become so politicized now, oh,
100% when if you questionanything on any political side
all of a sudden.
If, for example, if I questionanything about conservatism, all
of a sudden I'm a ragingatheist liberal.
Speaker 2 (08:44):
Oh 100%.
Speaker 1 (08:46):
That's just how it goes nowadays.
So I think part of it is thatfear of if I were to I mean I'm
not afraid to say that he shouldbe brought back I can, I'm
saying that right now If I wereto say that around conservatives
, well, this, they'd saysomething.
Speaker 2 (09:03):
So what about isms?
Speaker 1 (09:04):
So what about isms?
So what about isms?
And then, all of a sudden, Iwould be labeled as leftists and
I'm a socialist and all youknow, and and that's my point,
right, right you can't evendefine what marxism is there is.
We have to admit that our partyis screwing up on this one
(09:29):
Screwing up.
Speaker 2 (09:30):
We're all screwing up , but we won't Even.
Besides that, though because Iwell, I don't mind beating up on
any political party I sort ofthink it goes beyond that,
because I feel like this is acase again, obama.
I am born and raised inSouthwest Detroit, and Southwest
(09:51):
Detroit is very Close to, andit's full of, hispanic folks.
We got Mexican town, we gotPuerto Ricans, we got Mexican
food.
I mean, it is, it is just it.
It wasn't a surprise to see aMexican flag waving where I come
from, and that was just it.
And in those neighborhoods Obamawas known as the deporter in
(10:16):
chief, because at the time,obama deported more Undocumented
immigrants than any otherpresident in American history at
the time.
So he was always known, in myneighborhood at least, as a
deporter-in-chief.
Wow.
Now Republicans don't want toadmit that, but when it came to
(10:39):
tackling illegal immigration orundocumented immigration, obama
was at the forefront of that.
Now, fast forward in terms ofthat.
Obama went out here trying tobe our pastor, and nobody was
saying that Obama was going tobe our pastor, our
(10:59):
pastor-in-chief, right?
Nobody thought Obama was thesecond coming of Jesus Christ,
except Sean Hannity, whocouldn't seem to get enough
about talking about him andaddressing President Obama as
the anointed one.
Speaker 1 (11:14):
Sean Hannity.
Sean Hannity, isn't he aright-wing talking head?
Speaker 2 (11:20):
Yeah, talking head.
Speaker 1 (11:22):
That's surprising.
Speaker 2 (11:23):
Right.
But whether you think that iswrong or right, my point is
Christians expected that from aman who was clearly not a
Christian.
According to the, I believethat Obama is a Christian, but
(11:44):
my point is the largerevangelical circle does not
think Obama is a Christian tothis day.
They think he's a Muslim.
Speaker 1 (11:53):
Well, with that middle name, With that middle
name.
Speaker 2 (11:56):
See, that's where it's been wrong.
And then you tell me he's fromKenya.
No, no, no, we know whereyou're from and it ain't from
Kenya.
Now, we can't talk about andcan't name no other country up
over there, but we know it ain'tKenya.
Speaker 1 (12:10):
Yeah, I thought it was just Africa.
Speaker 2 (12:12):
Right, right Now.
Don't be lying to us.
We don't know what that is, butno, he was able to say the
things that he said and hewasn't held to a Christian
standard because we neverprophesied him to be the one who
Jesus sent his ascent, if notthe second coming of Jesus
(12:51):
Christ with orange hair, thistime is saying and doing things
under the banner of Christianity.
That does not representChristianity.
Well, and I'm not saying thathe has to, because I think all
of us, we all have fallen shortof the glory and if you look at
any one of us individually, wedo not represent the gospel.
Well, that said, I never showedup at your church and said
(13:14):
please vote for me so I canrestore religious rights and
religious liberty, because we'vebeen attacked.
I never showed up at yourchurch and said vote for me so
we can say Merry Christmas again, as if we somehow were
prevented from saying MerryChristmas, right, and so we are
holding him to a differentstandard because he is a
(13:34):
Christian.
I just did not expect thatstandard to be so low that we
allow it like these things tohappen and be afraid to speak up
against it and say I can stilllove you, I can still vote for
you, and this is wrong because,as a Christian, the kingdom of
(13:55):
God is here.
The United States of Americawill always be here.
It's either our Bible is ourguiding light and our roadmap to
life, or the Constitution.
It cannot be both.
Speaker 1 (14:11):
Yeah, because I don't think you can, I might get in
trouble.
I don't think you can reallyrule or run a nation using the
Bible, because I think somethings require worldly responses
, such as wars or that part likethere's.
(14:31):
No, I don't think god has everordained a modern war.
The ones in the bible, thosewere all him telling the
israelites do this, or when hewas punishing Israel with the
Babylonians that kind of thingthat was all brought on by him.
But I don't want to get too farinto this.
But like the Revolutionary Waris not a Christian war Right,
(14:55):
manifest destiny.
Speaker 2 (14:56):
Jesus did not come down and tell nobody to do that.
Yeah, and to that point as well, we can have a government that
is solely based on the Bible,and we've seen that in the Bible
government established by God,ran by God.
(15:19):
Our problem as humans is that wejust want a king, we want a
human king and so everygovernment that we try to
establish, by God, for God,through God to God, we end up at
the point where we say, okay,god, we get it.
(15:42):
Blah, blah, blah, we want aking, and then we start
listening to that king more thanwe start listening to our God.
And so, to that point, no, Idon't think that God has
established any moderngovernment, because that would
(16:03):
be God saying well, forget aboutmy kingdom, here go yours,
that's not God, because we haveexalted our own government, our
own constitution, our ownpolitical leaders on both sides
of the aisle, above God.
We've exalted our constitution.
(16:24):
I know people who claim to beChristian, by the way, because
that's what we're talking aboutwho carry a United States
constitution in paper form andain't got a paper Bible.
Really, really, how'd thathappen?
How'd that work?
Speaker 1 (16:45):
They claim to be Christian, claim to be Christian
, and I mean devout Christian.
Speaker 2 (16:49):
Full of the Holy Ghost.
Speaker 1 (16:51):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (16:52):
Going to church speaking in tongues and ain't
got a paper Bible, but they gota paper constitution because
they want to let you know thatthey American through and
through.
Speaker 1 (17:05):
Yeah.
It is weird, how manyChristians have idolized America
.
Speaker 2 (17:14):
My point.
Speaker 1 (17:15):
Patriotism is equal to Christianity.
Speaker 2 (17:18):
Christianity and that has never been.
And now that we've all talkedabout the bad things in terms of
that, there obviously is somegood.
I love the United States ofAmerica.
I'm proud to be an Americancitizen.
I will never be more proud tobe an American citizen than I am
(17:38):
to be a believer to be acitizen of heaven and that, to
me, that is the goal.
That is the goal.
Like heaven and earth shallpass away, but my word should
never pass away.
So anything that you arebuilding on, whether it's in
Washington DC or whether it's inMoscow, you name it Anything
(18:03):
that you are building on that isnot the word of god is just
sinking sand and we'reessentially wasting our time.
But in the midst of wasting ourtime, I need to make sure, as a
believer, because I think thisis a.
This is the point.
This is the part in not justAmerican history but in world
(18:24):
history, where Christians twobillion of us where Christians,
we can have an impact on theculture and not just be
consumers of the culture.
But we could be saying the bigC church could be saying there
are things that we havetolerated from governments, from
(18:45):
ourselves, for so long thatdoes not align with the word of
God and we ain't taking it nomore.
So if you want to fly up underthe banner of Christianity, be
my guest, but do not use ourBible twisted.
Speak good words, smoothtalking words in our ear for our
(19:09):
vote, for our money or for ourattention yeah, and I would say
that a lot of politicians haveused that throughout the years
100 and we should stop it.
We should stop it.
We should stop it and not tobring her up.
Do you know who I'm talkingabout when I say her?
I don't think I do Candy, candy, candy Soans, oh, oh.
(19:40):
I love all God's children.
Some of them be hard to love.
Speaker 1 (19:44):
She's Catholic, just some of them be hard to love.
She's Catholic now, is she?
Her husband is Catholic, and soI think she converted to it
Since when.
So she is no longer a child ofGod.
Speaker 2 (19:57):
Oh no, she can't be.
Speaker 1 (19:59):
Since when?
I think it was last year.
Don't quote me.
I just know that she'saffirming like she's Catholic
adjacent, at the very leastBecause her husband is.
Speaker 2 (20:12):
Catholic Lord.
Speaker 1 (20:13):
And also I don't want to talk about how she's
Christian when she has AndrewTate on and affirms him.
Speaker 2 (20:18):
That's true.
Speaker 1 (20:19):
It's one thing to have him on and rebuke him and
debate him on his beliefs.
But if you're just having himon because he's anti-woke, Okay,
that's where I was going next.
Speaker 2 (20:28):
So she's been, she's had a reformation, if you can
call it that.
I believe all of us can comeback to Jesus and be redeemed
and healed.
Speaker 1 (20:35):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:36):
I do too.
Now she says she didn't have areformation.
She's talking about she don'tlike Trump, like that no more,
because she's focused on theBible and Trump does not live in
by the Bible.
This, this whole administration, all this this is too much.
Speaker 1 (20:50):
Yeah and okay.
That's not the worst thing thatyou could say, that's my point
Now.
Speaker 2 (20:56):
I never, ever thought I would be agreeing with
something that she would say,and she's getting a lot of
pushback.
Speaker 1 (21:07):
I know yeah, probably from conservatives.
Speaker 2 (21:08):
From conservatives, yeah, I mean, come on, candy.
We told you you black numberone, so that's, that's, that was
your strike one.
And we told you if you don'tcontinue to push that party line
, you go mess up your money.
Nah, she done went and she donetried to mess up her money, but
she said it's for the Lord.
(21:29):
My point, though.
My point, though, is she'staken a stand that she believes
biblical.
There's some solid biblicalfoundations, and instead of
Christians saying, hmm, yeah,let me check my own faith, let
(21:50):
me check my own beliefs, we havedecided to fall on the lines of
political, the political lines.
Speaker 1 (21:57):
That's what I was saying, and it's terrible If I
question anything Trump does allof a sudden.
I'm not a Christian anymore andI'm I'm just in love with
Russia and all that they standfor or whatever.
Speaker 2 (22:13):
Sometimes it's like it's.
It's very hard as a I don'tknow who.
I told this the other day butsometimes it's hard to minister,
even to people our age and inour peer group the day.
But sometimes it's hard tominister even to people our age
and in our peer group becausethe loudest voices in the room
are the most toxic.
Speaker 1 (22:34):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:34):
And so they're reading the book that we want
them to read the Bible.
They're quoting the scriptures.
Speaker 1 (22:42):
Yeah, but are they reading the whole thing in
context?
Speaker 2 (22:44):
Absolutely not, which is why I am—how can I put this?
Because I don't want to offendnobody here because there is
value in all messages that arebiblical, that are founded on
the Bible, on the Bible.
(23:09):
That being said, I'm becomingincreasingly disillusioned with
the more topical preaching thatis you choose your topic, you
choose your scriptures, you putit together and then you deliver
it.
Speaker 1 (23:21):
Yeah, I would say that you said that there's value
.
Speaker 2 (23:26):
I think there's value in it.
Speaker 1 (23:28):
I do too sometimes, but I also think there are
topical messages that areabsolutely dangerous.
Speaker 2 (23:34):
Do not, and that's where I feel like the situation
has just gotten out of hand.
I don't know if there's acommittee meeting that I missed,
but I missed this vote becauseI didn't vote for this.
A meeting that I miss, but Imissed this vote because I
didn't vote for this where weare using the Bible to support
our opinions, because that'swhat sometimes topical preaching
feel like instead of preachingthe Bible.
(23:54):
That's one Number two.
Of course, we talked about thisnot too long ago.
I like learning the Bible incontext.
Speaker 1 (24:02):
Well, I mean, that's how it should be, that's how it
should be.
Speaker 2 (24:04):
Where is Paul?
What is he talking, paul?
What is he talking about?
What is he doing?
I want to know all of that.
Who is he writing to?
Who's carrying the message?
Yeah, that's important.
We were going over church.
I went to on Sunday.
That was an amazing sermon, andnot just because the guy
preaching was my father-in-law,but because I genuinely thought
(24:26):
it was an amazing sermon.
He preached Romans 16.
And he broke it down in a waythat, honestly, I don't think
I've ever heard a preacherpreach that.
Speaker 1 (24:40):
Romans is after Acts right.
Yes, okay, because we just wentthrough Acts 16.
Speaker 2 (24:45):
Amen.
And so he preached Romans 16and he broke it down and he
talked about all of the womenthat were named in Romans 16.
Speaker 1 (24:58):
And literally, Must be a very liberal church.
Speaker 2 (25:00):
That's the thing.
The whole time he was up there.
When I tell you, the hair onthe back of my neck was standing
.
Speaker 1 (25:09):
I was like— Because it was so moving.
Speaker 2 (25:11):
No, it was more like we don't do that.
We don't—no, we don't preachlike this anymore, especially
when you're talking about theBible supports women carrying
the message of Jesus Christ.
No, no, no.
You can't be preaching likethat.
No, absolutely not.
You can't be up on that wayanymore.
We done voted for our king.
(25:33):
We living in a handmaid's tale.
You're supposed to be preachingthat only men can preach and
lead congregations.
Speaker 1 (25:48):
Well, I think that the lead pastor should be a man
Now see, that's a differenttopic.
I don't think there's.
I think it's fine ifmissionaries are women or
they're, but a missionary?
Speaker 2 (26:00):
can't be a man.
Speaker 1 (26:02):
They can't be Evangelizing on the corner.
Speaker 2 (26:04):
a woman, that's's fine, but like the lead pastor
at a church so you want thewomen's out there on the corner
instead of the strong means.
Speaker 1 (26:11):
I want both so the means could be a missionary.
Yes, I'm saying the men can bemissionary to, I'm saying the
lead pastor okay, so can thewoman have any other role?
Speaker 2 (26:24):
Youth pastor Youth pastor.
Speaker 1 (26:26):
I think it's fine if a woman is teaching the children
.
Speaker 2 (26:29):
So you think it's fine if a woman can teach my
kids but she can't teach meCorrect.
I guess that makes sense.
They don't make sense.
I'm sorry.
I feel like for for me, rightCause I can, I can read it for
myself, I can break it out, Ican understand, I can study and
all of that.
But if I am entrusting you withmy kids, then by nature I feel
(26:57):
like I should be able to entrustyou with myself.
And you can't teach my kidsnothing.
You can't teach me.
That's how, that's how I teachme, that's how I feel.
That's how you feel.
I refuse to like for me if I'magainst women preaching or
(27:18):
anything of that sort, becausethere are some people who are
against women preaching.
But you didn't say preaching,you just said lead pastor.
But if I am against womenpreacher and women leading the
church as a lead pastor, then Idon't want women teaching my
kids.
Speaker 1 (27:36):
Well, I think that's different, because children are
Gullible, not as yeah, not asdeveloped as us.
Speaker 2 (27:43):
Not as developed.
So why would I leave somethingthat God has entrusted to me
that is not as yeah, not asdeveloped as us?
Not as developed.
So why would I leave somethingthat god has entrusted to me
that is not as developed in thehands of somebody who could take
it in the wrong direction?
Speaker 1 (27:58):
I don't know, I don't fully understand why the Bible
says that women can't teach thecongregation.
Speaker 2 (28:07):
Where did you say that?
Speaker 1 (28:09):
I think it's in Timothy.
Speaker 2 (28:10):
Oh we can read Timothy when Paul says I permit
not a woman to teach.
Why is Paul saying that?
Well, you seem to know.
Why is Paul saying I?
Well, you seem to know.
No, I want to ask you why isPaul saying I permit?
Speaker 1 (28:26):
not a woman to teach.
So he says, because in thegarden Eve was uh persuaded by
the devil, and then shepersuaded Adam.
Speaker 2 (28:37):
Right, we know that's what happened.
Speaker 1 (28:39):
So I think today that would translate to women
generally are more susceptibleto being driven to emotions.
This does not mean that mencannot be, but women are
generally more susceptible tobeing driven by emotions.
It's just in their nature,which I think is good, but it's
not in the context of teachingmen who are to become leaders
(29:02):
when they're adults.
Oh, okay.
Speaker 2 (29:05):
So no, I'm not a theologian.
Speaker 1 (29:07):
I also think that it also ties into James.
When James says many of youshouldn't teach because you're
going to be judged harsher and Ithink that that burden should
be on men.
Speaker 2 (29:23):
We can go come back to that, because I felt like you
were going in the rightdirection.
I was about about to say amen,but that's why I got to hold my
amen.
That'd be my problem sometimesfor real.
For real in church, well, Idon't be holding my amens and
I'll be done saying amen andthen the pastor follow up with
something I don't agree with.
And now I got to stay silent,look around and hope.
Speaker 1 (29:38):
Where did, where did, where did I go that?
Speaker 2 (29:41):
it was that last part where you said I think the
burden should be on men and notwomen.
Speaker 1 (29:51):
Yeah, why is that wrong?
I'm going to get back to thatIf men want to be the strong
leaders that they claim theywant to be.
They should take that burden on.
Speaker 2 (30:01):
I'm not saying that it would be wrong, obviously, of
a man to take on that burden ofleadership.
What I'm saying is that mencan't do it at the expense of
women, because women were alsoleading the early church.
(30:23):
When Paul is talking, we justgot done reading Romans 16.
Speaker 1 (30:26):
Yeah, but how often were they leading?
There's one example in theBible.
Speaker 2 (30:30):
There's one example in the Bible One example that
literally changed the course ofhistory, if you think.
Speaker 1 (30:36):
Paul was Jesus.
Speaker 2 (30:37):
Christ.
If you think Paul was JesusChrist going into what is now
modern-day Turkey to preach byhimself, then absolutely not.
That's ridiculous.
Speaker 1 (30:48):
He's not Jesus and also, I never said he was going
by himself.
Speaker 2 (30:52):
No, no, no, my point is.
My point is Paul says and hepoints out the women who were
instrumental in the ministryduring his time and he
explicitly states their effecton the ministry and he
explicitly states how effectivethey were in building the early
(31:14):
church in the places that Pauldid not reach but he could only
write to.
And when Paul left those placesthat he could reach, paul
explicitly states that womenwere instrumental in that.
Speaker 1 (31:27):
When Paul mentions women in his writings let's read
Romans 16.
Speaker 2 (31:32):
But when Paul mentions women in his writings
or couples in his writings, ninetimes out of 10, he mentions
the female first.
Speaker 1 (31:42):
That doesn't mean that they were the leader.
Speaker 2 (31:46):
I believe that every word in the Bible means
something and the way that it'sstructured.
Speaker 1 (31:51):
There is no reason.
No, no, no.
This is what I'm saying.
Speaker 2 (31:54):
I'm not putting nothing in Paul's mouth.
What I'm saying is there is noincentive to include women in
the book they don't have a placein creating.
There's no incentive for Paulto be writing so highly about
women in his time, in his day.
Speaker 1 (32:12):
Just because he's writing highly of them doesn't
mean that they were the leadpastor of that congregation.
Speaker 2 (32:17):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (32:17):
Or does it say that?
Speaker 2 (32:18):
Okay.
Acts of the Apostles 2 and 17,.
The last days, I will pour outmy spirit upon all people.
Wait, what is this?
Acts of the Apostles?
This is Acts 2 and 17.
In the last days, god says Iwill pour out my spirit upon all
people.
Your sons and your daughterswill prophesy.
Why are our daughtersprophesying?
Speaker 1 (32:38):
Prophesying is not the same as teaching.
Okay, I didn't say theycouldn't prophesy, okay, okay
let's, let's go here.
Speaker 2 (32:48):
What is prophesying?
Speaker 1 (32:50):
it is a word from god .
Why is?
Speaker 2 (32:54):
god speaking to a woman to prophesy and we would
believe a woman because heardirectly from god to prophesy
but that same woman cannot heardirectly from God to teach us a
lesson Teaching isn't.
Speaker 1 (33:12):
you're not here, I don't think you hear directly
from God and then you teach amessage.
What they doing.
I think prophesying can bewords of encouragement.
It could be hey, the Lord putthis verse on my heart to tell
you today.
Those are examples.
When you're preaching, you arepreaching the word of God in its
context.
You're not saying God, give methis message for this Sunday.
(33:32):
That's not how it works,because those ones always get
blown way out of proportion andget screwed up.
Speaker 2 (33:37):
Okay, I see where our difference is here.
We disagree on what prophesyingis, I think, what you just said
, words of encouragement andthings of that sort that could
just be on your heart.
People are just full ofencouragement and joy.
So we agree there, right, goddidn't ordain you, he didn't
wake you up out of your sleep,or they could prophesy and hey,
you're doing something wrong.
Speaker 1 (33:57):
Right, that's my point.
The Lord put something on myheart.
Speaker 2 (33:59):
Prophesying is hearing from God.
Prophesying is speakingdirectly from God's mouth to
God's people.
In the Bible, prophesying wasusually doom and destruction is
coming.
Get your life right, you knowprophesying.
Speaker 1 (34:14):
Yeah, I don't think that it necessarily changed.
It could still mean that.
Speaker 2 (34:18):
It can still mean that 100%.
There are some prophets outthere, I believe, who are saying
repent, repent, repent.
The kingdom of heaven is athand.
Repent, repent, repent 100 yeahwhat I'm saying is I don't
think that god would give awoman my daughter the ability I
don't bring the emotions into it.
Speaker 1 (34:38):
My daughter, he said your son oh okay, you're saying
like my, as in god, yes, okay, Ithought you were talking about,
like if you had a daughter?
No, no, no, no.
Speaker 2 (34:47):
I don't have any daughters, but my point is I
don't.
I find it hard for me tobelieve that God would be
allowing the woman to prophesyand not teach.
Speaker 1 (35:01):
But teaching in this context, as you are leading an
entire congregation.
Those are the sheep and you areresponsible for them.
Speaker 2 (35:11):
In many places, not to backtrack, but in many places
where we see, especially inCorinthians, where Paul is
saying let your woman keepsilent, in the church right,
where Paul is saying that inmany of those places he's
speaking directly to that church, that particular congregation,
because there's a lot ofriffraff going on, there's a
whole lot of hoopla right.
Speaker 1 (35:34):
Yeah, that's not the verses I was referring to, but
my point is.
Speaker 2 (35:38):
I can understand where you're coming from in that
, because Paul is having thesame problem with the church at
Corinth, where there's somedisagreement and, instead of the
men getting together andfiguring it out and just putting
the stake in the ground,there's a lot of kerfuffle and
confusion that is aided by thewomen in the church right.
(36:01):
Paul is speaking directly tothem.
So I can understand your lineof reasoning that women
shouldn't be able to lead achurch.
What I'm saying is I vehementlydisagree with that and
(36:25):
scripture does not back that upplace that I can believe that
women can prophesy but can'tteach, I can't get there.
I can't lead again.
Speaker 1 (36:43):
I just mean the main congregation, the lead pastor
Sunday sermon in the mainsanctuary well, I think, I think
lead pastors don't necessarilyhave to preach.
Speaker 2 (36:58):
But to your point, in the case that the lead pastor
is 9-7-10, the one who waspreaching.
Speaker 1 (37:04):
We're just going to disagree on this.
I disagreed with Bronson whenhe came on too.
Speaker 2 (37:08):
What did Bronson say?
I don't remember, it was solong ago.
Speaker 1 (37:13):
It was just like a quick thing, and then, once the
episode was done, we discussedmore after that.
Speaker 2 (37:21):
Before we button this up and get back to what we were
talking about, and that isreligious liberty, can I just
read I also want anybody who'slistening.
Speaker 1 (37:28):
If you're on Spotify, you can comment or YouTube.
Comment what you think.
Can women preach, can they not?
I just want to know otherpeople's opinions.
Thanks, you continue.
Speaker 2 (37:40):
I, just before we button this up, I really just
want to read Romans, chapter 16.
Speaker 1 (37:45):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (37:46):
And I'm reading out of the NLT version so hopefully
nobody casts me in the hell.
Speaker 1 (37:52):
NLT, it ain't the KJV .
No, the KJV.
I don't think the KJV is thatgood.
I like ESV, oh ESV.
Speaker 2 (38:01):
You might be going to hell.
Why is that?
I don't know.
People told me, lawrence, yougonna go to hell.
The ESV on your phone.
Speaker 1 (38:09):
ESV is like a word for word that's what I said.
It's like the KJV, but it'seasier to understand.
Speaker 2 (38:14):
That's what I said, and it was like hellfire,
brimstone.
Yeah, well, whatever.
Okay.
Romans 16 I commend to you oursister Phoebe, who is a deacon
in the church of Centraea.
I can't pronounce all thechurch.
You understand why I speakEbonics, that's my native tongue
.
Welcome her in the Lord as onewho is worthy of honor among
(38:39):
God's people.
Help her in whatever she needs,for she has been helpful to
many, and especially me.
Give my greetings to priscilla,woman, and aquila, my co-workers
.
Paul didn't call them servants,he didn't say assistants.
He didn't say they helped meout to get my robe and my water
and my towel, because you know,I preach heavy.
(38:59):
He said these are my co-workersin the ministry of christ jesus
.
In fact, they once risked theirlives for me.
I'm so thankful for them, andso are all the Gentile churches.
Okay, okay, we're going to moveon.
Give my greetings to Mary, whohas worked so hard for your
benefit.
I'm sure I don't know how hetalked.
Greet Adronicus and Junia, myfellow Jews who were in prison
(39:26):
with me.
They are highly respected amongthe apostles.
Wait, junia is a woman.
Hold on.
Why she?
Why she respected among theapostles and became followers of
Christ before I did.
Wait a minute, paul, okay, holdon.
Speaker 1 (39:43):
Wait, let's watch.
Okay, well, romans 16 is goingto be obviously something I
didn't read that much into.
And it's going to have to besomething that I researched,
because there may have been areason as to why, but why?
In Timothy does he say I permitnot a woman to teach, because
in the garden Eve, I forgot howhe words it Right.
(40:05):
Right, eve was deceived andthen she deceived Adam, and is
it?
Speaker 2 (40:10):
before or after?
Paul says that when a womanprophesies that she should have
a covering, is it before orafter that?
I told you I'm not a theologian, but I know Paul instructs
women to have a covering, Ithink.
Speaker 1 (40:24):
Timothy is after Corinthians.
Speaker 2 (40:26):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (40:26):
Because the covering is in Corinthians mostly, I
believe, okay.
Speaker 2 (40:30):
Number one.
Now, I'm not saying this to beheretical, so please don't cast
me into hell, although I knowyou can't, but Paul wasn't the
best speaker.
We know that he wasn't the bestspeaker when you read his
writings.
We've broken down, of course,the whole Bible into chapters
and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, but they're all one letter,
right.
So think of all of thoseletters from Paul as one letter,
(40:51):
one run along sentence.
And if you ever read his stuffin depth and clearly, he rambles
, paul rambles.
He can't seem to stay on thesubject for too long.
He goes off subject.
He goes off subject, he has anaside, then he comes back it was
a mistake.
No, I don't think it was amistake, but what I'm saying is
he's talking to a specificpeople in a specific time about
(41:15):
a specific issue.
What he is definitely notsaying is that women should not
have that role, that womenshould not lead, that women do
not have a place as coworkersamong men, because if that be
the case, then that wouldcontradict all of the other
instances where he identifiedwomen as his coworkers.
(41:37):
So it's either Paul got amnesiaor dementia or something like
that.
So we need to stop reading hiswriting because obviously he
ain't all together.
Speaker 1 (41:49):
Or we believe it all, or it could be that when there
wasn't as many believers, theyneeded them, and then later on,
when the church was moreestablished, that's when they
decide that he says that theleader should be.
Speaker 2 (42:05):
Yeah.
At what part in history do youthink there was more men than
women?
What?
At what part in human historydo you think there were more men
and women besides Cain and Abel?
Speaker 1 (42:21):
I was saying in the Christian faith, maybe in that,
wherever he was, where they wereall coming to Christ maybe it
was more women came to Christand he needed their help at that
time.
Speaker 2 (42:33):
So he don't need their help, no more.
Speaker 1 (42:35):
No, he still does.
I think that that was beforethe church was established.
Speaker 2 (42:39):
I think in the context of church and leading an
entire congregation, it'sdifferent than evangelizing or
prophesying which Paul couldn'thave spoken to, because what we
look at as the church today,where we're going to a building
(42:59):
that has a staff that didn'texist.
Church was in people's housesback in Paul's day, so Paul
couldn't have spoken tosomething.
Speaker 1 (43:10):
I thought Peter established the first church.
Speaker 2 (43:13):
Upon this rock I will build my church.
Jesus is not saying a physicalbuilding.
Jesus is not saying I'm goingto set up a temple and I'm going
to have our stained glasswindows.
Somebody call Michelangelo upover here to get us some
paintings up in here, someangels, and somebody call I
(43:34):
don't know somebody from Europewith blonde hair so he can
represent me and be in all ofthe pictures and stuff like that
.
That's not what Jesus wassaying and stuff like that.
That's not what Jesus wassaying.
Jesus was saying I am buildingmy church on the faith that
Peter has, on the service thatPeter has, not the physical
building.
Speaker 1 (43:52):
Well, you just dismantled the entire Catholic
church by saying that it is whatit is.
Anyway, this is not what I'vepersonally heard from my church
yet.
Uh, this is just like youtubeand research, so it's something
I'd have to research more, but Iam going to stand firm in what
I believe for now, because youshould okay, because you know I
(44:17):
like somebody who can stand firmand what they believe, but my
what.
Speaker 2 (44:21):
I do know about you, though, but I do know about you
and I hope that we respect eachother in this light that when we
have gotten to a point where wehave heard from God or we have
researched enough, we havetalked to enough people, where
it's clear that we're wrong, weadmit that we're wrong.
Speaker 1 (44:38):
I feel like you're putting that on my side a little
bit more.
Speaker 2 (44:42):
I'm not putting that on your side at all, because,
let me tell you, this issomething that I continuously
look into myself.
Yeah, because it's a difficultone, and it's in our culture,
right, it's in our culture.
The man is the head of thehouse, right, I am to lead my
family and things of that sort,and I have always heard in every
denomination that women shouldnot be leading church, they
(45:05):
should not be pastoring, and insome denominations they should
not be preaching, right, so theycan't even take, you know, the
podium at some churches.
So no, it exists, it is outthere.
I've been in church all of mylife, so I have known that this
exists.
So this is definitely somethingthat I look into and what I
(45:28):
cannot as I said earlier, Icannot bring myself to the
conclusion.
The first time I heard aboutGod was through a woman, was
through a woman.
Again, I didn't say that waswrong.
No, no, no.
I'm not saying that.
What I'm saying is I'm making apoint, that is, that I cannot
get to a place where I think godwould orchestrate that and
(45:51):
allow that, because I believethat he does, that he will allow
that and not allow a woman toto teach or to lead a
congregation again to that point.
Speaker 1 (46:04):
It's just like agree to disagree at this point.
I know you.
I know you're really trying toget me.
Speaker 2 (46:09):
I'm not trying to get you to say I'm camera, no, no
no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,no, no no no, no wrong, I'm
never gonna let you appear to beoutside of the box, so so
that's fine if I appear that wayto these, to anybody's
listening, it's not fine, pleasedon't hate me if I have my
points are bad.
Speaker 1 (46:29):
I tried my best.
But again, say in the commentswhat you guys think and back it
up biblically too, because Idon't want just emotions well,
no, we both have biblical.
Speaker 2 (46:40):
Well, yeah, I know I'm saying like people who are
going to be commenting.
Speaker 1 (46:44):
Okay, if, if it's just like yeah, I think that
women can't be preachers, I justthink that's a bad answer.
Yeah, back it up.
Back up, like go through theRomans 16, because that's a good
point.
I've never really like lookedfar, looked too into it, because
I can't look into every singlepart of the Bible all the time
who can, but now that's going tobe a section that I am going to
(47:06):
be for a while.
Speaker 2 (47:07):
Re-romans, re-pause all of paul's writing, and
you'll see how many times hementions women in their effect.
To be fair, though, I had readover the whole priscilla and
aquila, because he also mentionsthem in other writings as well,
and every time I read overpriscilla and aquila I just
automatically thought that theywere men.
Really, yeah, I don't know, I'mjust well, they named me and
(47:33):
priscilla back in the back inthe day how do you not know that
priscilla is a?
woman whose name is Aquila, so Ifigured there's no.
If Paul is talking aboutPriscilla and Aquila, Aquila
(47:54):
must be a dude and we justchanged the name later on down
the line and so we just talkingabout dudes leading the church,
we just talking about dudesbeing impactful in the ministry
helping Paul out.
Who else going to help Paul out?
Speaker 1 (48:09):
Yeah, exactly that's what.
Speaker 2 (48:10):
I'm trying to say it's got to be the dudes.
So Paul must be tough.
Priscilla and Nicola dudesThank you.
Okay, but yes, oh to the point.
Sorry To the religious liberty.
Speaker 1 (48:25):
Yes, now that we're 50 minutes in, we're back on the
religious liberty.
Speaker 2 (48:34):
Let's button that up, I think.
I think in many instances wehave, we have taken our
religious liberty not only forgranted, but we have used our
religious liberty to cover upour injustice, our sins, our
(48:56):
failures.
And we have felt that, becausewe have the freedom of religion
and we are Christian, that weshould not, cannot and could not
be condemned for our own wrongactions.
(49:17):
And I think it's high time thatChristians start setting a
standard, that Christians startsetting a standard, because we
know what we collectively wantand don't want from people who
are not Christian.
So I'm not talking about them,but I'm talking about us
cleaning house and not eachother, because I think it's very
(49:39):
important to do what the Biblesays, and it is cover one
another.
But I think it's important thatwe start cleaning house
ourselves, that we startchecking ourselves and examining
, re-examining ourselves and ourfaith.
What are the things that?
What are the opinions, theideas, the acts, the everything?
(50:02):
What is it in my life that Ihave allowed, that I have
engaged in, that I have becomecomfortable with?
That is contrary to my faith.
Speaker 1 (50:14):
Yeah, I think that churches need to set higher
standards.
For it to change and if youwant it to bleed into culture
the right way, I think churchesneed to set higher standards.
But the churches that have themost people, mega churches
(50:36):
they're not preaching truebiblical I love Jesus words.
Speaker 2 (50:42):
I mean, well, eventually you lose your
congregation, with the wholebeing nice and Jesus was a
servant, kind of sermons.
So yes, I would agree with thatWell.
Speaker 1 (50:58):
I just mean there's not, and I don't want to be
biased, because at my churchthey do preach about being a
servant.
They do preach about sacrifice.
Of course it's not a perfectchurch no church is but the
majority of churches that I'vegone to in the past mega
churches or like those funchurches they're not preaching
(51:19):
about servanthood or sacrifice.
Most of the time it's hey, youshould give your money and
you'll get more back.
Speaker 2 (51:29):
You know I love a good prosperity message every
now and again.
Speaker 1 (51:33):
But it's just not true.
Speaker 2 (51:35):
We know that.
We know that there are peoplewho literally read the Sur
surgeon general's warning on apack of cigarettes and still
bite and smoke every last one.
Speaker 1 (51:49):
we know that, yeah, but sometimes we go to church to
feel good, I'm already broke,at least preach I need to go to
church, to feel convicted in agood way amen what I'm getting
at is there are people and I'mnot going to say any names that
just constantly complain aboutwhere America's at.
Speaker 2 (52:09):
Oh 100%.
Speaker 1 (52:11):
And they do nothing to change it.
They go home and they'reChristians, self-proclaimed
Christians, and they drinkalcohol, specifically Alcohol,
my lord.
And then they don't even haveto be getting drunk, but it's
like, okay, you want to complainabout america and then come
(52:36):
home and live thisself-indulgent life.
That part, even if it's just alittle buzz, it's still a
self-indulgent life.
You're not living a life ofsacrifice, you're not pouring
into anything that part you'rewatching movies and then all you
do is complain about america.
It's like what have you done?
Speaker 2 (52:56):
in your own sphere of influence and exactly like that
that is usually the the part,usually when we present.
You know, here's a problem,here's the solution.
Um, it seems overwhelming.
It seems overwhelming.
I think.
I think the best thoughtleaders know and understand that
(53:19):
they cannot alone changeculture, change the world.
Speaker 1 (53:26):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (53:27):
I don't care how many people listen to you.
It's not going to be everybodyand there's going to be somebody
out there Hopefully in theUnited States of America, as it
used to exist who will disagreewith you and won't be afraid to
speak up.
But so, yeah, don't try to now.
(53:48):
If the Lord has put it on yourheart and you can change the
world, please go right ahead.
Go right ahead Now.
I know it's only one, jesus,but maybe you think you could be
number two.
So you go right ahead.
And in the meantime, for therest of us, I think God is
requiring of us to have thatimpact on ourselves, on our
(54:10):
house.
One of the reasons why I leanso heavy into the women
preaching and focus it upon thehome is because that is your
first church.
Your home is your first church.
It's going to be hard for youto get up and preach to me if
your house is not in order.
Paul even talked about that.
How are you going to be anelder?
You ain't got your money inorder?
It's very hard.
(54:31):
If your house isn't in order,how can you help us get our
house in order?
That being said, yeah, itstarts with us, it starts at
home and it starts in our sphereof influence.
So maybe your job is not to goout on the street corner, maybe
your job is to not you knowstart a church.
(54:51):
And if you're watching this,please do not say I've been
convicted by what they said upon the podcast.
I'm going down the street andI'm starting a church.
We don't need no more churches.
Speaker 1 (55:02):
Yeah, we need quality churches.
Speaker 2 (55:04):
I am so sorry to be the one to tell you and I love
church.
Like I said, I've been going tochurch all my life.
I love church.
We don't need no more churches.
What we need is more Christians.
What we need is more people whoare with all of their heart
None of us are perfect but withall of their heart, are
following the word of God andwho are, who are trying to
(55:28):
affect the people around them.
According to the word of God,we're not beating up on nobody,
we're not killing nobody, and werefuse to support things that
do not also uplift and glorifyGod, especially if it means
because I got to be a part ofyour group.
In order to be a part of yourgroup, I have to be willing to
(55:53):
to let go of my faith and mybeliefs.
Come on now.
It's not worth it.
Speaker 1 (55:59):
I also wanted to say I I didn't mean that people need
to go evangelize on the cornersno, I know you, I'm just saying
I'm just saying like the, thepeople that complain, it's like
for you could could be.
Your kid is in a badrelationship with somebody and
you need to be honest with themabout it, but you're not.
And then that starts a wholechain reaction because they stay
(56:24):
in this relationship.
What if they have kids withthis person?
That's not good for them.
And then those kids grow up ina not so you know what I'm
saying Not so Christian home,and it's just like it just goes
down the line when it could havebeen stopped by someone saying
this is not good for you.
Speaker 2 (56:43):
This is not good.
Speaker 1 (56:43):
Because honesty really is the best policy, the
best policy.
Speaker 2 (56:48):
I want to give an honorable mention and I don't
like to use names, but I want togive an honorable mention to
Pastor McVeach of KentwoodCommunity Church in Grand Rapids
.
And here's why Pastor McVeachwas a missionary.
Well, once it's in your blood,it's in your blood, it's a
missionary.
Wait, you said he, he.
Speaker 1 (57:08):
Yeah, he's the lead pastor.
Yes, he's the lead pastor.
Speaker 2 (57:11):
Yes, he is All right, he's the lead pastor at
Kentwood Community Church and hewas a missionary overseas and
of course, he talks a lot aboutthat.
But one of the things that hereally focuses on once he got
back stateside and he hascontinued to preach that, and if
you go to Kipwell CommunityChurch, you will experience this
(57:31):
and see this live and in person, and that is being a church of
and for the nations, of and forthe nations.
And when he first came to GrandRapids, I was at a community
church at the time.
He comes to Grand Rapids andhe's like you know, I'm living
(57:57):
in Detroit and blah blah, blahblah and I'm from Detroit.
So my brother, my kinsman,spirit, you know we're part of
Detroit, blah blah blah.
We talked, we talked about allthat and he did something that I
didn't expect for him to do heinvited me to dinner.
Speaker 1 (58:14):
Invited me to dinner as the lead pastor.
He wasn't even the lead pastoryet, okay.
Speaker 2 (58:23):
What was he at the time?
He was just a visiting guy.
He was kind of interviewing forthe job, I guess you could say,
because they had not decidedthat he should be the lead
pastor.
But he invited me for dinnerand he invited me for dinner
Christmas Eve and was it good.
It was delicious.
It was delicious and I wentthere.
(58:44):
Christmas Day I drove toDetroit, visited my family.
Christmas Day I went over andhad dinner with the Veach family
.
Speaker 1 (58:53):
Is that where you met Mickey?
Speaker 2 (58:55):
That's where I met Mickey.
Speaker 1 (58:56):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (58:56):
That's where I met Mickey Veach, who literally
obviously my best friend to thisday.
The thing is, and the point is,that is more ministry than a
lot of pastors and Christiansalike will put in their entire
lifetime.
Speaker 1 (59:14):
That's what I was trying to, yeah.
Speaker 2 (59:17):
That's more ministry.
I mean, yeah, that spokevolumes to me, right.
Speaker 1 (59:22):
And then now look at who you are today.
Speaker 2 (59:26):
I'm not saying that one thing is what made you a
Christian, but but I am sayingthat act right, because I'm
thinking, in order for me tolead people to Christ, you
better get it right right now.
Come on, lift your hands, giveGod some praise.
I'm thinking I got to be likethat, yeah, when in reality,
being a believer and reachingout to people in your sphere of
(59:48):
influence involves inviting themout to dinner.
And of course he could havesaid, because I wouldn't have
done this, to be honest with you, that's how I know he had
better admit, because I'm notinviting nobody.
I don't know, and I mean forthe first time, you're not
coming to the Christmas dinner.
Now you can come to the cookout, you know the Juneteenth
cookout, but you're not comingto the Christmas.
(01:00:10):
The Christmas I want nobodyaround my family, all like that.
We all close and I don't knowif you got, you could have had
the Rona before the Rona waseven here.
I don't know, I don't know youlike that.
But he invited me to his housefor Christmas dinner, a stranger
, somebody that he didn't,somebody he didn't have to do
that for, and to me that isministry.
And so I have definitely triedto in my life invite people out
(01:00:32):
for dinner.
My first time that I met Ronson.
Ronson showed up at the church.
He was looking to be the youthpastor, or the young adults
pastor was.
But I saw him at the church andsomebody had, you know,
introduced me to him and say, oh, you know, he's thinking about
(01:00:56):
being a youth pastor.
I said, ron, so let's go out tolunch.
We went out to lunch First timeI met Christian.
Christian came, said you know,he wanted to work in the youth
ministry, trying to figure outwhere he want to lay, and I said
look, christian, let's go outto lunch Right.
Every time I have learned howto pay that forward because I
have learned through that oneact.
I've learned that that is moreministry than just about
(01:01:17):
anything else I was doing at thetime.
And I think that is where wecan all start in our sphere of
influence.
Invite somebody out for coffee,invite somebody out for dinner.
That's how you spread the loveof Jesus Christ.
That's how you spread thegospel, jesus Christ.
That's how you spread thegospel.
When I was hungry, you fed me.
Don't be giving me the gospeland you can't give me a piece of
bread.
(01:01:37):
That's just me.
But the Lord's still working onmy heart.
But it's hard to listen to youon an empty stomach, okay, if
you see me with a need, okay, Iunderstand.
Jesus died for my sins, but hedidn't die for this light bill.
I got to get these lights on.
I got to get my eggs.
It's too high, okay, I need mean egg sandwich in the morning.
(01:02:01):
Come on somebody Like.
Meet them at their knee, invitethem out, have a conversation,
get to know them.
Then you are spreading thegospel.
You're not spreading the gospelby who you vote for.
You're not spreading the gospelby who you speak against.
You're not spreading the gospelby deporting legal immigrants
who have no felony convictions.
(01:02:23):
We are spreading the gospel oneperson at a time, one to one,
through coffee, through coffeeshops, in our homes, in our
houses where the early churchmet.
Anyway, that's how we do it.
Speaker 1 (01:02:36):
Right on, and I think that's a perfect way to end
this.
That's it so, anyway.
Thanks everybody for listeningAgain, comment what your
opinions are.
Thanks, lawrence, for coming on, of course always, and
everybody.
Have a blessed week.
Bye, love you.
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