March 27, 2025 • 45 mins
In this episode, I delve into the often overlooked history of the Spanish Presidios in California with expert Michael Hardwick, author of Spanish Arms and Armaments of the Presidios in California.
Michael shares his extensive research on Spanish military fortifications during the colonial period. We discuss the arms, armaments, and strategies of these garrisons, their role in supporting the missions, and their adaptation to coastal defenses.
Michael also shares personal anecdotes from his years of archaeological work at Presidio sites and his exploration of historical records, providing a fascinating glimpse into California's early military history.
00:00 Introduction to Spanish Presence in California
00:36 Meet Michael Hardwick: Expert on Presidios
03:17 Michael's Background and Work on the Presidio Project
04:22 The Historical Significance of Presidios
07:55 Uncovering the Foundations and Artifacts
16:08 The Evolution and Role of Presidios
22:06 The Armament and Defense Strategies
31:14 The Legacy of Spanish Artillery
40:26 Conclusion and Final Thoughts
Purchase Spanish Arms and Armaments of the Presidios in California
or email Michael: mrhardwick@icloud.com
Michael's Book on Mission La Purísima
Watch on YouTube
Give a one-time donation
Learn more about the California Frontier Project:
Contact:
damian@californiafrontier.net
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Damian Bacich's video reco (00:00):
When we read or hear about the
(00:01):
Spanish presence in Californiaand in the whole Southwest, for
that matter, the main focustends to be on the missions,
which were a very, uh, importantreligious and cultural, uh,
institution.
But at the time.
That the missions were beingestablished.
(00:23):
The other arm of that Spanishpresence
was the
Damian Bacich's vide (00:26):
Presidios, the Presidios, which were the
military presence on thefrontier of the Spanish Empire.
Today I'm talking with someonewho is a real expert on
Presidios and a real expert onthe Spanish history of
California.
his name is Michael Hardwick andhe just wrote a book called
(00:49):
Spanish Arms and Armaments ofthe Presidios in California.
Michael, graduated with a degreein anthropology from the
University of California inSanta Barbara and worked on
archeology at the Presidio ofSanta Barbara, which eventually
become, became the statehistoric park of El Presidio.
(01:12):
He worked also at Laima as aranger and he established the
archive there.
And for many years he, helpedinterpret and preserve Laima
mission on top of it, he's aveteran of the US Navy, and so
he has a very firsthandknowledge of military munitions
(01:35):
and armaments and strategy.
And so
I think he's an
Damian Bacich's video (01:40):
excellent person to talk to about this.
As a final note of aninteresting note, he founded a
reenactment group, very uniqueone, which is called Los SDOs Re
Pre Santa Barbara, which was areenactment group dedicated to,
reenacting Spanish militarycostumes and armaments, et
(02:00):
cetera in California.
And it started back in 1990.
So Mike's gonna talk aboutwriting
this book the
Damian Bacich's vid (02:08):
Discoveries he made along the way,
and he's gonna
Damian Bacich's video (02:10):
introduce us to a lot of little known
facts about California's earlymilitary history.
I think you're really gonna likeit.
Um, Just one note, if you'relistening to this and not
watching it, Mike refers toimages from a presentation he
made.
So if you wanna see the images,you should make sure and check
it out on YouTube.
(02:31):
Of course, he describes what'sgoing on in those images, so if
you're just following this onpurely audio format, that's
fine.
But if you wanna see thepictures.
Uh, I would go and watch it onYouTube and purchase the book
because all of the pictures arealso in his book.
So, for more information aboutthat, listen, and I've included
(02:54):
all the information about how toget the book and how to contact
and know more about Mike in thenotes to this episode.
So here's my interview withMichael Hardwick.
Damian Bacich (03:17):
Well, thank you for agreeing to come on the
podcast.
As I was mentioning to youbefore, and I'm really looking
forward to hearing about thePresidios, the Presidio
soldiers, what they've meant forour history here in the West.
my, uh, personal experience withPresidios was going to visit my,
(03:39):
uh, grandparents, you know, mygrandmother in San Francisco and
my Uncle George, God rest hissoul.
He used to take us, he was aretired naval officer, had
served in World War ii, and sohe used to take us to lunch at
the officer's club at thePresidio in San Francisco.
Michael Harwick (03:53):
Been there, done.
Damian Bacich (03:55):
yeah.
And he used to play golf there,too.
And so that was, I didn't knowit had anything to do with Spain
or our, our particular historyhere in California.
It wasn't until later that Ilearned that.
So I'm.
I'm grateful, Mike, that you've,you've written this book and,
uh, that you're willing to cometalk about it and, and give us
(04:15):
some background on, on Presidiosand the soldiers that occupied
them and their place inCalifornia.
Michael Harwick (04:22):
Well, yes, I've, uh, I've been involved
with the Presidio Project.
Uh.
Uh, since its inception really,it started in 1965 and we were
digging in Santa Barbara here ina parking lot.
And, um, I got started on thatand then I, I was in the, uh, I
was in the Navy at the time andI got, I got shipped to Vietnam,
(04:44):
so I spent some time over thereon a, on a cruiser.
Um, and, uh, then I came back toSanta Barbara in 1969 and, uh,
UCSB and, and got intoanthropology and history, and
then again, got affiliated withthe Presidio.
So my, uh, research and, uh,association with that project
here in Santa Barbara, which is.
(05:04):
El Presidio State Historic Park,which is, uh, that's what it is
now.
Uh, but when it started it wasjust a, a backyard parking lot,
you know, and we were trying tofind the foundations and
whatever for it.
So unfortunately, I got hookedand my family got hooked.
And, uh, I spent 50, 60 years ofmy life researching and
(05:28):
reenacting, you know, doing allthat sort of thing that went
along with it and, um, um, andcouldn't get away from it, and
still stuck in it.
And my whole library is SpanishColonial history.
Pretty much.
I can give you a little bit of abackground on who I am and what
(05:48):
I've done, uh, and then we couldlead into the book.
Damian Bacich (05:52):
Yeah.
that would be great.
In fact, we, um, we had, uh,Jerry Jackman on a couple of
times and his, uh, overviews ofhis history at the San, at the
Santa Barbara Presidio werereally enlightening and really
helpful.
But, uh, I'm really interestedto hear what you have to say
about Santa Barbara and all theother Presidio.
(06:13):
So yeah, tell us a little bitabout your
Michael Harwick (06:15):
Well, Jerry and I are, are, are joined at the
hip.
If you can say that.
Um, he was, uh, the executivedirector of the Presidio when I
was there, and we worked hand inhand and are to this day,
brothers in arms, uh, sort of inValli Thoses from the, from the
Presidio Project.
(06:35):
Um, but, uh, this is a littlebit from a talk that was given
in 2015 by him, uh, at thePresidio.
And he starts off by saying,let's begin with his service in
the US Navy during the VietnamWar.
That's me, uh, where he sat offshore for six months or so on
(06:55):
the Admiral Ship Light Cruiser,USS, Oklahoma City flagship of
Seventh Fleet.
Mike worked in communicationship, uh, equipment.
I.
Uh, the Admiral receivingreceived like 7,000 messages a
day.
He said, he says that duty madea strong impression on him, uh,
as a young man for many reasons,but for our purposes, uh, is
(07:20):
experiencing those huge shipcanon.
Firing at targets on shore inVietnam was something he never
forgot, and that's probablytrue.
I think I got some gun cotton inmy veins.
Anyway, it piqued his interestin arms and armament and, and
interest that carried over intohis internet.
Interest in, uh, Spanish periodcan, in fact, it is more than an
(07:43):
interest.
It is a passion.
He has produced, uh, a severalhundred page manuscript on the
arms and armaments of the SantaBarbara Presidio.
Now, this was in 2015.
Uh, what what happened was as wewere uncovering the foundations,
uh, we had gone to the, one ofour, uh, uh, individuals that
(08:06):
work with us.
Dick Whitehead, uh, had gone tothe Bancroft Library and
acquired just about everythingthat was known on the Presidio,
most of it in Spanish.
And he had copies of it made andbrought it to the Presidio, and
then had it, most of ittranslated, and this later
became a book, uh, which hewrote called Citadel on the
(08:29):
Channel.
Uh, and it pretty much, uh,described the history of the
Presidio.
And out of this also came a map.
Written by pa, drawn by PedroFajas, uh, at the time of the
Presidio.
So we had a foundation map ofwhat the Presidio was supposed
to be.
So Dick used to be a surveyorwhen he was in the Army, and he
(08:52):
was also a Public works directorat the county of Santa Barbara
retired.
So he started chasingfoundations and uh, we began to
find that the foundations werestill there Oh.
Uh, around several properties.
So that became the impetus for dsort of chasing the foundations
and ultimately restoring thePresidio.
(09:15):
Um, well the interesting thingabout all that was, um, um, I
got interested in, uh.
The records that he had acquiredfrom the Bancroft Library.
And, um, he went through themand wrote a nice history of the
Presidio, but he, he was, hepretty much ignored annual
(09:37):
inventories that were taken.
It was a garrison, you know,military garrison.
And so they were inspected everyyear and they come down and
wanted to know the status of thearmaments and what was in the,
in the magazines and that kindof stuff.
And so there were all thesereports, annual reports of what
(09:58):
was at the Presidio.
So I just decided I was gonnastart, I'm an anthropologist, so
for me, I wanted to get.
Down to what, what made thatoperation function, you know,
Garrison, what makes it functionare arms, you know, and armament
supplies to, to, to keep allthat going.
(10:19):
So I got in there and startedputting this stuff together and
I came up with a prettyinteresting chronology of, uh,
what was there at various times.
And, uh, it was a manuscript fora lot of years and it just
recently until 2025, uh, becamean actual book, arms and Arm of
(10:40):
the City of California.
But just to go on a little bitwith my history, um, one of the
things that happened as a resultof, um, um, the Mexican War in
1845, um, the, a lot of theseSpanish.
Uh, pieces of artillerydisappeared from California and
(11:05):
they disappeared because many ofthem were captured as trophies
of war and sent back to the EastCoast, and they ultimately wound
up at, uh, Annapolis, the NavalAcademy.
Um, so in 2012, uh, um, Jerryand I went back to Annapolis to
(11:25):
photograph, um, these cannonsand find out what was there
prior to that I had, uh, um,discovered in, uh, 1783.
Well, one of the things aboutthis, uh, Presidio that we had,
uh, found the map of, there weretwo gun bastions on opposite
(11:47):
ends of the corner of each ofthe, of the bas, of the bastion.
And, um, so we suspected that,uh, these were there for cannon.
But, uh, nobody really knewwhat, uh, we suspected they were
just, I mean, uh, light piecesof artillery or whatever.
Um, so I got intrigued withthis, you know, and then I found
(12:10):
a inventory in these records,these Bancroft records, that
indicated that in 1782 therewere, uh, two bronze, uh, four
pounder Cannon at the Presidiothat had been ordered in.
This was standard equipment forPresidios of a, of a garrison of
that type.
And, um, so I, uh, I saw in theinventory where they said they
(12:36):
were bronze and they were fourpounders, and they weighed 760
pounds a piece.
I thought, those are not smallcannon.
Well, indeed, they were, theywere, they were considered light
artillery during the time, andthey were called, uh, Spanish
terminology was canons, dea.
You know, field cannons, andthis was what was standard issue
(13:00):
for the presidios of the time,of the time.
But of course, all these thingswere missing, so I didn't really
know, you know, uh, what thatwas.
But I did have a weight and Ihad studied these cannons a
little bit, and I noticed, youknow, these cannons all have
markings on them.
And I'm intrigued with thesebronze Spanish cannons, because
(13:20):
to me they're cul.
Uh, they're, they're, they'repieces of sculpture, you know,
they've got, they've got, and,you know, engravings on them.
They've got the King's Crest ison the breach, you know, uh, the
dates and all that sort ofthing.
And then if you look at theions, you can actually, if you
interpret the Spanish, uh,symbols of weight, you can get
(13:42):
the weight off the ion of thecannon.
So I had all that.
Damian Bacich (13:48):
Remind us what's aronian.
Michael Harwick (13:50):
Okay, well, a cannon, uh, of that time period,
uh, is, uh, a long bronze tube,right?
Um, the ian ions are the pinpivots that stick out from the
side.
You know, one side of of thatis, is of, of that trion is
(14:10):
marked on it.
What, what the, what the gunmetal composition is.
They, they might say somethinglike, uh, bro de Peru, Mexico,
or something, you know, reusebronze.
And then the other side is, isgot markings on it.
Scratches, which say likesomething like pesa P for P for
(14:31):
pesa, which means weight.
And, um, so, uh, and, and the,the, the weights are like, in
Libre, a Libre is roughlyequivalent to an English pound.
A robust, a robot is like 25pounds.
And then, uh, sort of, sothey'll, they would have like p
(14:53):
you know, um, seven, uh, seven Land then so many, so many at
sign a robust, you know, andthat sort of thing.
So you could interpret that andget, and get the weight of the
gun.
So anyway, I was intrigued, wewere intrigued with the fact
(15:15):
that what happened to theSpanish artillery?
'cause if you look at, for, ifyou look for cannons in
California from the Spanishperiod, you know, there's only a
few of'em left.
Most of them are up at like SanFrancisco and then there's one,
there's a couple of them down inSan Diego, and, uh, that's about
it.
You know, so what happened tothe rest of'em?
(15:36):
Well, they got, a lot of'em gotcaptured and, and transferred
east and the one that finally,they wound up at the Naval
Academy.
So we went there in 2012 and,um, and, and, and, and found
these things and lo and behold,and I'll get to this, I wish I
could show my, I wish I couldsquare, show my, share my screen
(15:59):
here.
I I've got pictures of thisstuff.
There we are.
Damian Bacich (16:02):
Okay.
Michael Harwick (16:03):
Uh, there you go.
That's good.
Damian Bacich (16:08):
Okay.
Michael Harwick (16:09):
Well, this gets us into Presidios a little bit.
Damian Bacich (16:11):
Hmm.
Michael Harwick (16:12):
Uh, you can, you can page ahead as we go.
Right.
Damian Bacich (16:15):
Yes.
Michael Harwick (16:16):
Okay, well we start off with some of these
bullets here.
Uh, Presidio, lemme give you alittle background of Presidios.
Uh, they, they started in NewSpain.
They go back to the 16th centuryin, uh, in New Spain.
Uh, and that's Mexico.
And, uh, within two centuriesthere was a line of Presidio,
Spanish Presidios that existedin the American Southwest all
(16:38):
the way from Texas toCalifornia.
And this is, as the Spanish weremoving up in, uh, northern
Mexico.
Um, they, they encountered allthese native peoples, uh, some
of which were pretty hostile.
So they evolved this whole, uh,frontier, uh, method of, uh, of
controlling and, and managingthese, uh, these people.
(17:01):
So that was along the wholeSouthwest.
So, uh, when it came time to.
Um, colonized California from in1769, they used the same basic
concept.
You know, they'd, they'd bringin the presidios and the, uh,
the garrisons to support the,uh, colonization effort and then
(17:24):
support also the foundation ofthe missions.
Damian Bacich (17:27):
Can I ask you a
Michael Harwick (17:27):
So, yeah.
Damian Bacich (17:29):
Is, uh, was the Presidio only used in the
northern part of New Spain orwere there presidios in other,
uh, territories in the SpanishEmpire?
In the, in the Americas?
Or is this peculiar to, to ourregion?
Michael Harwick (17:45):
Uh, the actual Presidio itself, uh, actually, I
I if you really wanna say whereit began, it began in, in, in,
uh, north Africa, you know, whenthe Spanish were fighting the
Moores and whatever, they builtthese garrisons, which were like
presidios, and they were like,um, enclaves of Christianization
(18:06):
and.
Uh, a sea of, uh, Muslimactivity kind of thing.
So it's a very ancient kind ofconcept, and it, it can, a lot
of people like to say, oh,Presidio comes from the Latin
Presidium, which, you know,means a garrison and Presidio
and, and later Mexican, um,language in implies a prison,
(18:28):
you know, uh, but in the 18thcentury and before it wasn't
that it was a garrison, uh, of,of, of troops that were
organized in a military fashion.
And originally they, they sortof happened, um, haphazardly and
eventually grew over two, twocenturies into a sort of a
(18:51):
military organization ofindigenous people who were.
You know, and command of horsesand, uh, were, were mestizos
that lived on the frontier,rugged, uh, troops.
And they were adapted to thatlifestyle and they were
(19:11):
supported then, uh, as, as aform of military in the new
world by the Spanish government.
Damian Bacich (19:20):
I see.
Michael Harwick (19:21):
so from the years, this is, we're looking at
the la the latter evolution ofthe Presidio concept and the,
probably the later, the la thelast edition was the little
Spanish, uh, uh, form ofCalifornia when they, when they
settled California in 1769.
This was.
(19:42):
Uh, coastal settlement, andthey, uh, they were trying, the
Spanish, were trying to getcontrol of this area all the way
up because the Russians werecoming down from the north and,
uh, they were one to check that,uh, advance and claim the
territory for Spain.
So they used the Presidios as a,as a method of doing that.
(20:03):
Uh, so from 1769 to 1782, therewere four Spanish Presidios in,
in, in Alta California.
California was broken up intoAlta, uh, a higher area, and,
and Baja, the lower area.
And the first Presidio was inLoreto, uh, of Baja, California.
(20:26):
So, um, so from 1769 to 80 82,we have four Presidios in
California.
Um, you know, one was, uh, SanDiego was the first.
Uh, it, because that's wherethey started.
Uh, and it be, it formallybecame a Presidio in 1773, but
(20:47):
it was actually established in69.
Uh, then Monterey was 1770 laterthat became the, the, the
capital ultimately of AltaCalifornia.
San Francisco happened in 76with, uh, with Anza who came
through.
And, uh, uh, one of his, uh, uh,members founded that Presidio.
(21:11):
And then probably the lastPresidio ever founded by the
Spanish in the southwest was theSanta Harbor Presidio in 1782.
Damian Bacich (21:21):
Now what about Sonoma?
Because I know they call it aPresidio, but it was more of a
a, a small garrison.
Michael Harwick (21:28):
right.
It was under Vallejo.
That happened later.
I don't, you could probablytechnically be called, uh.
Presidio, but it was, um, moreduring the Mexican period, I
think that we look at that area.
So Valerio, uh, Vallejo had agarrison up there and, um, uh,
(21:49):
yeah, I think you could probablycall it, call it a Presidio, but
it wasn't, I don't think it wasreally founded during the
Mexican period, uh, Spanishperiod.
It came during the Mexicanperiod.
Damian Bacich (22:01):
right.
Michael Harwick (22:03):
So what were these garrisons like?
Um, they supported mounted,mounted soldier companies of
leather jacketed soldiers knownas Soldado Deta.
And these guys were, as I said,unique.
Um, and they ultimately gottheir own royal regulations,
which specified the arms andarmament that the soldiers of
(22:26):
these garrisons would, wouldhave.
And we go to the next slide.
You can see, um, the line ofpresidios that was established
across the southwest here, andyou can see it goes all the way
across.
Uh, the idea being that if onePresidio got in trouble, another
(22:49):
one could come and reinforce it.
So they ultimately got this linegoing and, uh, in the 1770s they
moved.
Uh, they were, this was such a.
Diverse area that neededcontrol, that they formed a cia,
general Inal in a place called are space Sonora.
(23:09):
And he, he was staffed, that wasstaffed by a, um, you know, a
common, a common commoncommandant general, uh, a picked
by the Spanish king.
And he had almost the samepowers as a Viceroy.
So his, how, his, his purpose inthat administrative center, the
(23:31):
purpose of that was to, youknow, control these presidio and
try to maintain, you know, somelevel of control on that south,
on that frontier, that northernfrontier.
Damian Bacich (23:43):
Now I notice that there's, te and fronts are, are
very close to one another.
And this is just a particularquestion I have about the ans.
Expedition.
I think some of the, some of themembers, some of the settlers
were from RAs and some were fromTete.
Were they, was he gatheringpeople from different presidios?
Michael Harwick (24:07):
right.
Yeah.
He had, he had gotten, uh, theywanted to try to get a land
route, uh, across to California.
And, uh, so he was, uh,empowered by the Viceroy
Viceroy, uh, Buca, uh, Belli, Ibelieve it was to try to try to
break through and see if he canget, if he could get a supply,
(24:30):
uh, line going from this area,from that area, uh, through Yuma
and ultimately to California.
Because everything, all thesupplies that were going up to
California were going by sea,and it was very expensive to, to
keep all that going.
So Anzo was, was, uh, empoweredto, to do that and to break
(24:53):
trail for that.
Damian Bacich (24:56):
Gotcha.
Michael Harwick (24:57):
Right.
We go to the next one.
Well, here's our Sodo Dera.
This is what they look like.
Uh, they manned the presidios ofthe, of the frontier of New
Spain, and they were named fortheir, for their Cora coats of,
uh, leather jackets.
You can see they, uh, they're onhorseback.
(25:18):
They have muskets and lancesand, uh, shields, which they
called a DGA and that sort ofthing.
Uh, we go on the next one.
Um, the, the two left, uh,pictures of a bronze statue and,
uh, um.
(25:41):
Arizona in, uh, Tucson from themuseum there.
It's a very, very well done.
You can see the equipment thatthat soldier carries.
He's got his aga and his saddleand his his pistol and cartridge
box.
And, um, um, so they, they werepretty real.
(26:03):
They pretty heavily armed.
They had a lance, a shield, twopistols, a shortened musket
shirt, short sword cartridgebox, and each soldier had a mule
and six horse horses that had tosupport him.
So, you know, this guy just,just to himself, to to arm one
soldier took quite a bit.
Damian Bacich (26:25):
Now were the soldiers, if they have a mule
and six horses, are theyresponsible for taking care of
those animals themselves or werethere, uh, staff at the, uh, at
the Presidio who were in chargeof, of taking care of them?
Michael Harwick (26:43):
presidios that, that's the point we're gonna get
at Presidios are the garrisons.
And so they typically, theywould have the horse herds that
supported the soldiers.
So they had livestock that wereoutside of the presidios that
they maintained, and they, theykept horses there at the
Presidio, at the ready in casethey needed them, that sort of
thing.
(27:03):
So this is the substance of, youknow, the inventories that I got
into.
Uh, when you consider the factthat the equipment, livestock
powder, and shot.
Light artillery.
These were all supplied andinventoried on inventoried under
royal regulations for eachPresidio.
And, uh, interestingly enough,th those magazine stores
(27:27):
included fireworks, which youwouldn't think was a big thing,
but they, they used thefireworks for, you know, uh,
festivals and that sort ofthing.
And you consider the fact thatpresidial companies were 35 to
60 men.
Now you start multiplying thatby pistols, swords, lance
blades, you know, powder shot,all that.
(27:51):
You know, they had to keep allthat in, in, in supply there at
the Presidio to, to keep thesesoldiers, uh, you know,
equipped.
That's what I got into later.
Damian Bacich (28:02):
Can I ask you a question?
I might be getting ahead ofmyself, but in terms of their
armament, you know, youmentioned that they carry a, a
musket sword, uh, cartridge box.
Well, and two pistols.
I noticed in, in, in some of thematerial, the book that you said
that the lance was theirpreferred weapon.
(28:26):
Why is that?
Michael Harwick (28:27):
Well, most of these soldiers were mestizos
and, uh, uh, virtually cowboys.
I mean, they were proficientwith the use of the horse and
the lance, you know, um,relatively, they got very
proficient at using a lance, amounted lance.
So there's a lot to using one ofthose things.
(28:49):
And, uh, uh, that's pretty,pretty from the standpoint of,
uh, a formidable foe on thefrontier.
Uh.
First of all, if you're on ahorse, second of all, if you've
got some, if you've got a alance and you can use it and
you've got a shield, you canpretty much, um, you know, hold
(29:13):
your own against a lot of theIndians.
And, and you can also, you wearthat leather jacket, flack
jacket, and you can, you can getrid of you, you can stave off
some of the arrows, especiallywith the aga that they might
shoot at you.
So these were, let's say, theywere, at least they were, they
were some of the things thatthese guys were really good at
(29:34):
using.
And then you add the, the, thefirearms, uh, there's a little
more technical involvementthere.
Uh, they had to get proficientat using'em, had to have the
powder and shot, you know,available.
Um, you know, had to, had tomaintain these things'cause they
broke, keep them up and thatsort of thing.
Damian Bacich (29:58):
And weren't, they weren't the Californias, for
example, using Lance into the1840s at the Battle of San
Pasqua, for example.
They were, they were still verygood with them.
Michael Harwick (30:10):
Oh yeah.
Oh yeah.
I've actually, uh, when I wasreenacting this, I was, I built,
I got my own lance and I wastrying to figure out how to use
it and, uh, mount it.
I always wanted to try it on ahorse, but you gotta be very
careful when you're using one ofthose things because, uh, you
can, you can flip yourself offthe horse real easy if you're
(30:31):
not, if you're not delved at theway you handle the, the lance.
And they got to where theycould, they could twirl'em.
And bring them around in anattack position with the lance
over the top of the arm.
So if it impaled something andyou had to release it, you know,
you could let go and it would,it, it wouldn't, it wouldn't
(30:52):
take you off the horse, youknow, that sort of thing.
So they were very good at usingthese things.
In fact, they called themlancers of the king.
Damian Bacich (31:02):
There you go.
Michael Harwick (31:08):
So we go to the next slide there.
Uh, okay, now I mentioned thisearlier about the cannon, uh,
and when we went to the NavalAcademy, lo and behold, in front
of the administrators, threestar Admiral Administrators, uh,
(31:30):
house at the academy were two.
Light pieces of artillery bronzecannons that exactly matched
what I had seen in the inventoryat the Presidio of San Santa
Barbara, uh, 1782, and I don'tknow if you can see this, but
(31:51):
there is the, one of the ionsupper, the second photograph
top,
Damian Bacich (31:57):
Yeah, I can see it.
Michael Harwick (31:59):
yeah, it says seven Q 68, A seven Quintal, 768
pounds.
So that's, that was the clue.
I, I, I knew that by themeasurements of the, of the, of
Canon front, um, that I was afour pounder, uh, the weight
(32:23):
exactly matched what was on theinventory.
The bronze plate on the backsays, captured from the Mexicans
in California, 1845.
And then the, the, the clincherhere, the, uh, the cassbell in
the back, written across theresays who the gun founder was.
(32:48):
Josef Bonno, bar Barola andBarcelona.
Uh, uh, 1765.
So these cannons were made inBarcelona, cast designed by
Barola, the gun gun designer.
And they came from bar, theBarcelona, uh, Royal Foundry in
(33:10):
1765.
And in my book I talk about theBarcelona.
Gun foundry and they, they, uh,specialized in light artillery
for the, for the, uh, for thecolonies.
So these guns were the, this wasthe gun.
Not, probably not the gun, butthe type of gun that was at my,
(33:33):
our Presidio in Santa Barbara.
And indeed most of the presidiosbecause this was standard issue
for garrison's of that type.
So there you, there you see itas a four pound cannon light
artillery of the time and, uh,matches the 1782 inventory.
Damian Bacich (33:54):
There it is.
Michael Harwick (33:55):
There it is.
So this, this was like a firstbeing able to, um, identify
what, what canon was there.
Damian Bacich (34:04):
And these are on display in the open it seems,
from the photo.
Michael Harwick (34:08):
Yeah,
Damian Bacich (34:09):
yeah.
So you didn't have to dig backbehind some building somewhere.
Michael Harwick (34:13):
Yeah.
And when you wander around,well, they're right in front of
the, you know, the admiral'shouse that runs the academy.
You know, there's two of themthere.
They have a name on the guneach, but they, the thing that
they don't have is they don'thave the king cipher on the, on
the breach.
(34:33):
So that was that.
Let's go to the next one.
So you get an idea of what thepresidios were at the 17, early
17 hundreds.
They were there as garrison'sand they were mostly interested
in, uh, being able to preservethemselves from uprisings and
(34:56):
supporting the foundations ofthe missions and whatever.
And so California was divided upinto four military districts,
and each one of these militarydistricts had a presidio and a
garrison.
They had, uh, soldiers weredispatched from the Presidio to
(35:17):
establish missions.
And indeed, all the missions,each mission had what they
called an olta, uh, detachedfrom the, from the Presidio.
They would live at the missionand protect the, the friars and,
uh, sort of keep the peace, youknow, uh, during the time that
missions were being founded andeven after.
(35:38):
So that was the, that was themain goal initially, that after
1790, the emphasis became, uh,that of sea defense at the
Presidios because, um, you know,more ships were plying the coast
and even pirates, uh, were offthe coast.
So it became necessary to build,uh, to provide coastal defense.
(36:03):
And this is where we get into,uh, construction of what they
call Castillos or.
You know, um, coastal defense,uh, uh, uh, constructions now,
there were basically, go ahead.
Damian Bacich (36:21):
can we just jump back for one second?
How long was a typicalenlistment or contract for a
Presidio soldier, or Yeah.
How many years did he normallyserve?
Michael Harwick (36:32):
hard to say, but I think, um, many of them
actually did that.
As, you know, they were, theyactually retired doing that, you
know, being soldiers.
So it became like a, aprofession for them.
I mean, you know, when you thinkabout being on the frontier, if
you're in the army and suppliedby for food and munitions and
(36:55):
stuff, and your family is thereand you're living, um, that's,
that's a job.
You know, that's a way tosubsist.
So a lot of those soldiers were,became career soldiers.
Had families and theneventually, you know, got
ranches and, and that sort ofthing.
Damian Bacich (37:15):
Right.
Okay.
Michael Harwick (37:18):
So anyway, these royal engineers, after
1790 started putting in, uh,garrisons on the coast.
Problem is you, you, you can't,uh, fend off shipping with light
artillery four pound cannon.
You need, you need heavierordinance for that.
Well, unfortunately, Californiawas way out in the, in the
(37:40):
boondocks and trying to getpieces, heavy pieces of
artillery across the isus fromSpain into California was almost
impossible.
Um, so what they did is theywent down to Peru and they
liberated all these ancient, uh,Elizabeth and Cannon that were
(38:00):
down there.
I.
Brought'em up to, brought'em upfor coastal defense.
And the remnant of that is, youcan see at the San Francisco
Presidio, all of those cannonsdate from about 1600 and
something.
They were all cast in Peru, andthey're roughly eight pounders.
Um, the other thing thathappened when they brought these
(38:23):
cannons up, these are 16, uh,cannons minted and, and
manufactured in the 16 hundreds.
The boar sizes were differentthan the 18th century cannons,
which had standardized.
So now you had a problem ofcannon balls.
Where are you gonna get'em?
Because you're not, you're notable to cast iron on the, on
(38:45):
the, you know, on the Westcoast.
Uh, there weren't the, weren'tthe foundries for that, but they
did.
And were able to cast copper.
It bel it melts at a lowertemperature.
So now a lot of these cannonballs that you're gonna find.
Are made outta copper to fitthese new cannons or these old
(39:05):
cannons.
So, uh, that's what was firedout of those things.
So these guns were at thePresidio and built,
interestingly enough, cannonsjust like this, and with the
same dates minted in Peru are atthe, at the, at the, uh, uh,
Naval Academy in Washington orAnnapolis.
(39:27):
And you can see the same guns,the same Peruvian cam, you know,
Canon and stuff like that.
Even canon that were, um, uh,captured in Monterey.
Uh, a couple of them with thenames that were on the guns
there at the Naval Academy.
Damian Bacich (39:43):
Ah.
Michael Harwick (39:44):
So these, if you take another, my book
describes each one of these gunsat the San Francisco Presidio,
and they all have theirinteresting history of, of, of
who the, you know, what is onthe breach, who manufactured
them, uh, the weights orscribbled kind of in a funny way
on the, on the back of thecannon.
(40:05):
So there's a history there too.
These are beautiful pieces.
And the ones that, the ones thatare at the Naval Academy are in
not as good a condition becausethe weather back there is, is
eating away at all theinscriptions.
Damian Bacich (40:19):
Oh, what a shame.
Michael Harwick (40:21):
yeah.
But these at, uh, San Franciscoare in much better condition.
So were these casillos everused?
Um, there were two, two battles,uh, sea battles with foreign
shipping.
Uh, one of them was at Montereywhen the pirate bouchard
attacked.
(40:42):
He sacked Monterey, held it forsix days and burned it, and then
came down the coast andattacked, uh, FUO here in the
Santa Barbara area.
And then also, uh, the, uh, the,the, the Castillo in San Diego
fired on a, uh, American shipthat had, uh, uh, illegally come
(41:04):
into the uh, area.
So those are the two.
But the big thing you were doingwith those big guns is, you
know, you're, you're bringingthem out, you'd lay em out and
foreign shipping would come andthey'd see you had these cannons
and they'd report it.
So it was more show and go than,than anything else.
'cause it got very, very hard tobuild these castillos and they
(41:26):
didn't last very long.
Damian Bacich (41:28):
I was gonna ask you that I only, maybe a few
years ago when I startedresearching the US Mexican War
in California, that I found outabout the Castillo San Joaquin,
and I didn't realize there wasone in San Diego as Well, What,
what happened to these, You saidthat they didn't last long.
(41:49):
How?
How come they're not aroundanymore?
Michael Harwick (41:51):
these things required, uh, uh, you know,
maintenance upkeep right on theocean there.
The one at San Diego is rightthere at Point Loma L.
Point Loma, um, very, very closeto the submarine base.
Um, and, uh, it, it was laidout, uh, in such a way that, um,
(42:13):
you know, it could, it couldcontrol the entrance to the
harbor there.
So, um, in fact, there is onecannon, actually two Cannon in
San Diego, left.
From that, uh, Fort Curos is iscalled, and, uh, one of them
it's in the book.
Uh, was El Capitan, an ironpiece that was on, uh, downtown,
(42:38):
uh, old town San Diego for along time.
And the other one is El Jupiter.
That, uh, is a bronze cannonthat's in the S Museum.
Uh, and it was, it's been therefor, for ages.
The interesting thing about the,uh, Jupiter is that it was, uh,
it was cast in the Philippines,um, and all the inscriptions on
(43:00):
it, uh, allow you to, to kind oftrace, trace it.
And, uh, the Philippine foundrydidn't get started until the
18th century, so it was one ofthe early guns that came out of
that foundry.
But if you wander around the SanFrancisco Presidio, you'll see a
number of bronze 24 poundersthat were captured during the
(43:22):
Spanish American War andrelocated, you know, to the
garrison there at Presidio.
And, and many of them are castin Manila, and they're beautiful
things.
They weigh, they weigh an excessof 6,000 pounds.
Damian Bacich (43:38):
Wow.
Michael Harwick (43:39):
They're all over the place.
You know, at the entrance youcome in, there's a couple of,
couple of cannons on the, on thegate there, down by Chrissy
Field.
I think there's a couple of'em.
Damian Bacich (43:50):
Yeah,
Michael Harwick (43:51):
Those, you know, those guns,
Damian Bacich (43:52):
That concludes part one of my interview with
Michael Hardwick about Presidiosand SDOs on the California
frontier.
Stay tuned for the next episodewhen we continue our
conversation and talk about,among other things, pirates on
the coast of California.
When we read or hear about the
(00:01):
Spanish presence in Californiaand in the whole Southwest, for
that matter, the main focustends to be on the missions,
which were a very, uh, importantreligious and cultural, uh,
institution.
But at the time.
That the missions were beingestablished.
(00:23):
The other arm of that Spanishpresence
was the
Damian Bacich's vide (00:26):
Presidios, the Presidios, which were the
military presence on thefrontier of the Spanish Empire.
Today I'm talking with someonewho is a real expert on
Presidios and a real expert onthe Spanish history of
California.
his name is Michael Hardwick andhe just wrote a book called
(00:49):
Spanish Arms and Armaments ofthe Presidios in California.
Michael, graduated with a degreein anthropology from the
University of California inSanta Barbara and worked on
archeology at the Presidio ofSanta Barbara, which eventually
become, became the statehistoric park of El Presidio.
(01:12):
He worked also at Laima as aranger and he established the
archive there.
And for many years he, helpedinterpret and preserve Laima
mission on top of it, he's aveteran of the US Navy, and so
he has a very firsthandknowledge of military munitions
(01:35):
and armaments and strategy.
And so
I think he's an
Damian Bacich's video (01:40):
excellent person to talk to about this.
As a final note of aninteresting note, he founded a
reenactment group, very uniqueone, which is called Los SDOs Re
Pre Santa Barbara, which was areenactment group dedicated to,
reenacting Spanish militarycostumes and armaments, et
(02:00):
cetera in California.
And it started back in 1990.
So Mike's gonna talk aboutwriting
this book the
Damian Bacich's vid (02:08):
Discoveries he made along the way,
and he's gonna
Damian Bacich's video (02:10):
introduce us to a lot of little known
facts about California's earlymilitary history.
I think you're really gonna likeit.
Um, Just one note, if you'relistening to this and not
watching it, Mike refers toimages from a presentation he
made.
So if you wanna see the images,you should make sure and check
it out on YouTube.
(02:31):
Of course, he describes what'sgoing on in those images, so if
you're just following this onpurely audio format, that's
fine.
But if you wanna see thepictures.
Uh, I would go and watch it onYouTube and purchase the book
because all of the pictures arealso in his book.
So, for more information aboutthat, listen, and I've included
(02:54):
all the information about how toget the book and how to contact
and know more about Mike in thenotes to this episode.
So here's my interview withMichael Hardwick.
Damian Bacich (03:17):
Well, thank you for agreeing to come on the
podcast.
As I was mentioning to youbefore, and I'm really looking
forward to hearing about thePresidios, the Presidio
soldiers, what they've meant forour history here in the West.
my, uh, personal experience withPresidios was going to visit my,
(03:39):
uh, grandparents, you know, mygrandmother in San Francisco and
my Uncle George, God rest hissoul.
He used to take us, he was aretired naval officer, had
served in World War ii, and sohe used to take us to lunch at
the officer's club at thePresidio in San Francisco.
Michael Harwick (03:53):
Been there, done.
Damian Bacich (03:55):
yeah.
And he used to play golf there,too.
And so that was, I didn't knowit had anything to do with Spain
or our, our particular historyhere in California.
It wasn't until later that Ilearned that.
So I'm.
I'm grateful, Mike, that you've,you've written this book and,
uh, that you're willing to cometalk about it and, and give us
(04:15):
some background on, on Presidiosand the soldiers that occupied
them and their place inCalifornia.
Michael Harwick (04:22):
Well, yes, I've, uh, I've been involved
with the Presidio Project.
Uh.
Uh, since its inception really,it started in 1965 and we were
digging in Santa Barbara here ina parking lot.
And, um, I got started on thatand then I, I was in the, uh, I
was in the Navy at the time andI got, I got shipped to Vietnam,
(04:44):
so I spent some time over thereon a, on a cruiser.
Um, and, uh, then I came back toSanta Barbara in 1969 and, uh,
UCSB and, and got intoanthropology and history, and
then again, got affiliated withthe Presidio.
So my, uh, research and, uh,association with that project
here in Santa Barbara, which is.
(05:04):
El Presidio State Historic Park,which is, uh, that's what it is
now.
Uh, but when it started it wasjust a, a backyard parking lot,
you know, and we were trying tofind the foundations and
whatever for it.
So unfortunately, I got hookedand my family got hooked.
And, uh, I spent 50, 60 years ofmy life researching and
(05:28):
reenacting, you know, doing allthat sort of thing that went
along with it and, um, um, andcouldn't get away from it, and
still stuck in it.
And my whole library is SpanishColonial history.
Pretty much.
I can give you a little bit of abackground on who I am and what
(05:48):
I've done, uh, and then we couldlead into the book.
Damian Bacich (05:52):
Yeah.
that would be great.
In fact, we, um, we had, uh,Jerry Jackman on a couple of
times and his, uh, overviews ofhis history at the San, at the
Santa Barbara Presidio werereally enlightening and really
helpful.
But, uh, I'm really interestedto hear what you have to say
about Santa Barbara and all theother Presidio.
(06:13):
So yeah, tell us a little bitabout your
Michael Harwick (06:15):
Well, Jerry and I are, are, are joined at the
hip.
If you can say that.
Um, he was, uh, the executivedirector of the Presidio when I
was there, and we worked hand inhand and are to this day,
brothers in arms, uh, sort of inValli Thoses from the, from the
Presidio Project.
(06:35):
Um, but, uh, this is a littlebit from a talk that was given
in 2015 by him, uh, at thePresidio.
And he starts off by saying,let's begin with his service in
the US Navy during the VietnamWar.
That's me, uh, where he sat offshore for six months or so on
(06:55):
the Admiral Ship Light Cruiser,USS, Oklahoma City flagship of
Seventh Fleet.
Mike worked in communicationship, uh, equipment.
I.
Uh, the Admiral receivingreceived like 7,000 messages a
day.
He said, he says that duty madea strong impression on him, uh,
as a young man for many reasons,but for our purposes, uh, is
(07:20):
experiencing those huge shipcanon.
Firing at targets on shore inVietnam was something he never
forgot, and that's probablytrue.
I think I got some gun cotton inmy veins.
Anyway, it piqued his interestin arms and armament and, and
interest that carried over intohis internet.
Interest in, uh, Spanish periodcan, in fact, it is more than an
(07:43):
interest.
It is a passion.
He has produced, uh, a severalhundred page manuscript on the
arms and armaments of the SantaBarbara Presidio.
Now, this was in 2015.
Uh, what what happened was as wewere uncovering the foundations,
uh, we had gone to the, one ofour, uh, uh, individuals that
(08:06):
work with us.
Dick Whitehead, uh, had gone tothe Bancroft Library and
acquired just about everythingthat was known on the Presidio,
most of it in Spanish.
And he had copies of it made andbrought it to the Presidio, and
then had it, most of ittranslated, and this later
became a book, uh, which hewrote called Citadel on the
(08:29):
Channel.
Uh, and it pretty much, uh,described the history of the
Presidio.
And out of this also came a map.
Written by pa, drawn by PedroFajas, uh, at the time of the
Presidio.
So we had a foundation map ofwhat the Presidio was supposed
to be.
So Dick used to be a surveyorwhen he was in the Army, and he
(08:52):
was also a Public works directorat the county of Santa Barbara
retired.
So he started chasingfoundations and uh, we began to
find that the foundations werestill there Oh.
Uh, around several properties.
So that became the impetus for dsort of chasing the foundations
and ultimately restoring thePresidio.
(09:15):
Um, well the interesting thingabout all that was, um, um, I
got interested in, uh.
The records that he had acquiredfrom the Bancroft Library.
And, um, he went through themand wrote a nice history of the
Presidio, but he, he was, hepretty much ignored annual
(09:37):
inventories that were taken.
It was a garrison, you know,military garrison.
And so they were inspected everyyear and they come down and
wanted to know the status of thearmaments and what was in the,
in the magazines and that kindof stuff.
And so there were all thesereports, annual reports of what
(09:58):
was at the Presidio.
So I just decided I was gonnastart, I'm an anthropologist, so
for me, I wanted to get.
Down to what, what made thatoperation function, you know,
Garrison, what makes it functionare arms, you know, and armament
supplies to, to, to keep allthat going.
(10:19):
So I got in there and startedputting this stuff together and
I came up with a prettyinteresting chronology of, uh,
what was there at various times.
And, uh, it was a manuscript fora lot of years and it just
recently until 2025, uh, becamean actual book, arms and Arm of
(10:40):
the City of California.
But just to go on a little bitwith my history, um, one of the
things that happened as a resultof, um, um, the Mexican War in
1845, um, the, a lot of theseSpanish.
Uh, pieces of artillerydisappeared from California and
(11:05):
they disappeared because many ofthem were captured as trophies
of war and sent back to the EastCoast, and they ultimately wound
up at, uh, Annapolis, the NavalAcademy.
Um, so in 2012, uh, um, Jerryand I went back to Annapolis to
(11:25):
photograph, um, these cannonsand find out what was there
prior to that I had, uh, um,discovered in, uh, 1783.
Well, one of the things aboutthis, uh, Presidio that we had,
uh, found the map of, there weretwo gun bastions on opposite
(11:47):
ends of the corner of each ofthe, of the bas, of the bastion.
And, um, so we suspected that,uh, these were there for cannon.
But, uh, nobody really knewwhat, uh, we suspected they were
just, I mean, uh, light piecesof artillery or whatever.
Um, so I got intrigued withthis, you know, and then I found
(12:10):
a inventory in these records,these Bancroft records, that
indicated that in 1782 therewere, uh, two bronze, uh, four
pounder Cannon at the Presidiothat had been ordered in.
This was standard equipment forPresidios of a, of a garrison of
that type.
And, um, so I, uh, I saw in theinventory where they said they
(12:36):
were bronze and they were fourpounders, and they weighed 760
pounds a piece.
I thought, those are not smallcannon.
Well, indeed, they were, theywere, they were considered light
artillery during the time, andthey were called, uh, Spanish
terminology was canons, dea.
You know, field cannons, andthis was what was standard issue
(13:00):
for the presidios of the time,of the time.
But of course, all these thingswere missing, so I didn't really
know, you know, uh, what thatwas.
But I did have a weight and Ihad studied these cannons a
little bit, and I noticed, youknow, these cannons all have
markings on them.
And I'm intrigued with thesebronze Spanish cannons, because
(13:20):
to me they're cul.
Uh, they're, they're, they'repieces of sculpture, you know,
they've got, they've got, and,you know, engravings on them.
They've got the King's Crest ison the breach, you know, uh, the
dates and all that sort ofthing.
And then if you look at theions, you can actually, if you
interpret the Spanish, uh,symbols of weight, you can get
(13:42):
the weight off the ion of thecannon.
So I had all that.
Damian Bacich (13:48):
Remind us what's aronian.
Michael Harwick (13:50):
Okay, well, a cannon, uh, of that time period,
uh, is, uh, a long bronze tube,right?
Um, the ian ions are the pinpivots that stick out from the
side.
You know, one side of of thatis, is of, of that trion is
(14:10):
marked on it.
What, what the, what the gunmetal composition is.
They, they might say somethinglike, uh, bro de Peru, Mexico,
or something, you know, reusebronze.
And then the other side is, isgot markings on it.
Scratches, which say likesomething like pesa P for P for
(14:31):
pesa, which means weight.
And, um, so, uh, and, and the,the, the weights are like, in
Libre, a Libre is roughlyequivalent to an English pound.
A robust, a robot is like 25pounds.
And then, uh, sort of, sothey'll, they would have like p
(14:53):
you know, um, seven, uh, seven Land then so many, so many at
sign a robust, you know, andthat sort of thing.
So you could interpret that andget, and get the weight of the
gun.
So anyway, I was intrigued, wewere intrigued with the fact
(15:15):
that what happened to theSpanish artillery?
'cause if you look at, for, ifyou look for cannons in
California from the Spanishperiod, you know, there's only a
few of'em left.
Most of them are up at like SanFrancisco and then there's one,
there's a couple of them down inSan Diego, and, uh, that's about
it.
You know, so what happened tothe rest of'em?
(15:36):
Well, they got, a lot of'em gotcaptured and, and transferred
east and the one that finally,they wound up at the Naval
Academy.
So we went there in 2012 and,um, and, and, and, and found
these things and lo and behold,and I'll get to this, I wish I
could show my, I wish I couldsquare, show my, share my screen
(15:59):
here.
I I've got pictures of thisstuff.
There we are.
Damian Bacich (16:02):
Okay.
Michael Harwick (16:03):
Uh, there you go.
That's good.
Damian Bacich (16:08):
Okay.
Michael Harwick (16:09):
Well, this gets us into Presidios a little bit.
Damian Bacich (16:11):
Hmm.
Michael Harwick (16:12):
Uh, you can, you can page ahead as we go.
Right.
Damian Bacich (16:15):
Yes.
Michael Harwick (16:16):
Okay, well we start off with some of these
bullets here.
Uh, Presidio, lemme give you alittle background of Presidios.
Uh, they, they started in NewSpain.
They go back to the 16th centuryin, uh, in New Spain.
Uh, and that's Mexico.
And, uh, within two centuriesthere was a line of Presidio,
Spanish Presidios that existedin the American Southwest all
(16:38):
the way from Texas toCalifornia.
And this is, as the Spanish weremoving up in, uh, northern
Mexico.
Um, they, they encountered allthese native peoples, uh, some
of which were pretty hostile.
So they evolved this whole, uh,frontier, uh, method of, uh, of
controlling and, and managingthese, uh, these people.
(17:01):
So that was along the wholeSouthwest.
So, uh, when it came time to.
Um, colonized California from in1769, they used the same basic
concept.
You know, they'd, they'd bringin the presidios and the, uh,
the garrisons to support the,uh, colonization effort and then
(17:24):
support also the foundation ofthe missions.
Damian Bacich (17:27):
Can I ask you a
Michael Harwick (17:27):
So, yeah.
Damian Bacich (17:29):
Is, uh, was the Presidio only used in the
northern part of New Spain orwere there presidios in other,
uh, territories in the SpanishEmpire?
In the, in the Americas?
Or is this peculiar to, to ourregion?
Michael Harwick (17:45):
Uh, the actual Presidio itself, uh, actually, I
I if you really wanna say whereit began, it began in, in, in,
uh, north Africa, you know, whenthe Spanish were fighting the
Moores and whatever, they builtthese garrisons, which were like
presidios, and they were like,um, enclaves of Christianization
(18:06):
and.
Uh, a sea of, uh, Muslimactivity kind of thing.
So it's a very ancient kind ofconcept, and it, it can, a lot
of people like to say, oh,Presidio comes from the Latin
Presidium, which, you know,means a garrison and Presidio
and, and later Mexican, um,language in implies a prison,
(18:28):
you know, uh, but in the 18thcentury and before it wasn't
that it was a garrison, uh, of,of, of troops that were
organized in a military fashion.
And originally they, they sortof happened, um, haphazardly and
eventually grew over two, twocenturies into a sort of a
(18:51):
military organization ofindigenous people who were.
You know, and command of horsesand, uh, were, were mestizos
that lived on the frontier,rugged, uh, troops.
And they were adapted to thatlifestyle and they were
(19:11):
supported then, uh, as, as aform of military in the new
world by the Spanish government.
Damian Bacich (19:20):
I see.
Michael Harwick (19:21):
so from the years, this is, we're looking at
the la the latter evolution ofthe Presidio concept and the,
probably the later, the la thelast edition was the little
Spanish, uh, uh, form ofCalifornia when they, when they
settled California in 1769.
This was.
(19:42):
Uh, coastal settlement, andthey, uh, they were trying, the
Spanish, were trying to getcontrol of this area all the way
up because the Russians werecoming down from the north and,
uh, they were one to check that,uh, advance and claim the
territory for Spain.
So they used the Presidios as a,as a method of doing that.
(20:03):
Uh, so from 1769 to 1782, therewere four Spanish Presidios in,
in, in Alta California.
California was broken up intoAlta, uh, a higher area, and,
and Baja, the lower area.
And the first Presidio was inLoreto, uh, of Baja, California.
(20:26):
So, um, so from 1769 to 80 82,we have four Presidios in
California.
Um, you know, one was, uh, SanDiego was the first.
Uh, it, because that's wherethey started.
Uh, and it be, it formallybecame a Presidio in 1773, but
(20:47):
it was actually established in69.
Uh, then Monterey was 1770 laterthat became the, the, the
capital ultimately of AltaCalifornia.
San Francisco happened in 76with, uh, with Anza who came
through.
And, uh, uh, one of his, uh, uh,members founded that Presidio.
(21:11):
And then probably the lastPresidio ever founded by the
Spanish in the southwest was theSanta Harbor Presidio in 1782.
Damian Bacich (21:21):
Now what about Sonoma?
Because I know they call it aPresidio, but it was more of a
a, a small garrison.
Michael Harwick (21:28):
right.
It was under Vallejo.
That happened later.
I don't, you could probablytechnically be called, uh.
Presidio, but it was, um, moreduring the Mexican period, I
think that we look at that area.
So Valerio, uh, Vallejo had agarrison up there and, um, uh,
(21:49):
yeah, I think you could probablycall it, call it a Presidio, but
it wasn't, I don't think it wasreally founded during the
Mexican period, uh, Spanishperiod.
It came during the Mexicanperiod.
Damian Bacich (22:01):
right.
Michael Harwick (22:03):
So what were these garrisons like?
Um, they supported mounted,mounted soldier companies of
leather jacketed soldiers knownas Soldado Deta.
And these guys were, as I said,unique.
Um, and they ultimately gottheir own royal regulations,
which specified the arms andarmament that the soldiers of
(22:26):
these garrisons would, wouldhave.
And we go to the next slide.
You can see, um, the line ofpresidios that was established
across the southwest here, andyou can see it goes all the way
across.
Uh, the idea being that if onePresidio got in trouble, another
(22:49):
one could come and reinforce it.
So they ultimately got this linegoing and, uh, in the 1770s they
moved.
Uh, they were, this was such a.
Diverse area that neededcontrol, that they formed a cia,
general Inal in a place called are space Sonora.
(23:09):
And he, he was staffed, that wasstaffed by a, um, you know, a
common, a common commoncommandant general, uh, a picked
by the Spanish king.
And he had almost the samepowers as a Viceroy.
So his, how, his, his purpose inthat administrative center, the
(23:31):
purpose of that was to, youknow, control these presidio and
try to maintain, you know, somelevel of control on that south,
on that frontier, that northernfrontier.
Damian Bacich (23:43):
Now I notice that there's, te and fronts are, are
very close to one another.
And this is just a particularquestion I have about the ans.
Expedition.
I think some of the, some of themembers, some of the settlers
were from RAs and some were fromTete.
Were they, was he gatheringpeople from different presidios?
Michael Harwick (24:07):
right.
Yeah.
He had, he had gotten, uh, theywanted to try to get a land
route, uh, across to California.
And, uh, so he was, uh,empowered by the Viceroy
Viceroy, uh, Buca, uh, Belli, Ibelieve it was to try to try to
break through and see if he canget, if he could get a supply,
(24:30):
uh, line going from this area,from that area, uh, through Yuma
and ultimately to California.
Because everything, all thesupplies that were going up to
California were going by sea,and it was very expensive to, to
keep all that going.
So Anzo was, was, uh, empoweredto, to do that and to break
(24:53):
trail for that.
Damian Bacich (24:56):
Gotcha.
Michael Harwick (24:57):
Right.
We go to the next one.
Well, here's our Sodo Dera.
This is what they look like.
Uh, they manned the presidios ofthe, of the frontier of New
Spain, and they were named fortheir, for their Cora coats of,
uh, leather jackets.
You can see they, uh, they're onhorseback.
(25:18):
They have muskets and lancesand, uh, shields, which they
called a DGA and that sort ofthing.
Uh, we go on the next one.
Um, the, the two left, uh,pictures of a bronze statue and,
uh, um.
(25:41):
Arizona in, uh, Tucson from themuseum there.
It's a very, very well done.
You can see the equipment thatthat soldier carries.
He's got his aga and his saddleand his his pistol and cartridge
box.
And, um, um, so they, they werepretty real.
(26:03):
They pretty heavily armed.
They had a lance, a shield, twopistols, a shortened musket
shirt, short sword cartridgebox, and each soldier had a mule
and six horse horses that had tosupport him.
So, you know, this guy just,just to himself, to to arm one
soldier took quite a bit.
Damian Bacich (26:25):
Now were the soldiers, if they have a mule
and six horses, are theyresponsible for taking care of
those animals themselves or werethere, uh, staff at the, uh, at
the Presidio who were in chargeof, of taking care of them?
Michael Harwick (26:43):
presidios that, that's the point we're gonna get
at Presidios are the garrisons.
And so they typically, theywould have the horse herds that
supported the soldiers.
So they had livestock that wereoutside of the presidios that
they maintained, and they, theykept horses there at the
Presidio, at the ready in casethey needed them, that sort of
thing.
(27:03):
So this is the substance of, youknow, the inventories that I got
into.
Uh, when you consider the factthat the equipment, livestock
powder, and shot.
Light artillery.
These were all supplied andinventoried on inventoried under
royal regulations for eachPresidio.
And, uh, interestingly enough,th those magazine stores
(27:27):
included fireworks, which youwouldn't think was a big thing,
but they, they used thefireworks for, you know, uh,
festivals and that sort ofthing.
And you consider the fact thatpresidial companies were 35 to
60 men.
Now you start multiplying thatby pistols, swords, lance
blades, you know, powder shot,all that.
(27:51):
You know, they had to keep allthat in, in, in supply there at
the Presidio to, to keep thesesoldiers, uh, you know,
equipped.
That's what I got into later.
Damian Bacich (28:02):
Can I ask you a question?
I might be getting ahead ofmyself, but in terms of their
armament, you know, youmentioned that they carry a, a
musket sword, uh, cartridge box.
Well, and two pistols.
I noticed in, in, in some of thematerial, the book that you said
that the lance was theirpreferred weapon.
(28:26):
Why is that?
Michael Harwick (28:27):
Well, most of these soldiers were mestizos
and, uh, uh, virtually cowboys.
I mean, they were proficientwith the use of the horse and
the lance, you know, um,relatively, they got very
proficient at using a lance, amounted lance.
So there's a lot to using one ofthose things.
(28:49):
And, uh, uh, that's pretty,pretty from the standpoint of,
uh, a formidable foe on thefrontier.
Uh.
First of all, if you're on ahorse, second of all, if you've
got some, if you've got a alance and you can use it and
you've got a shield, you canpretty much, um, you know, hold
(29:13):
your own against a lot of theIndians.
And, and you can also, you wearthat leather jacket, flack
jacket, and you can, you can getrid of you, you can stave off
some of the arrows, especiallywith the aga that they might
shoot at you.
So these were, let's say, theywere, at least they were, they
were some of the things thatthese guys were really good at
(29:34):
using.
And then you add the, the, thefirearms, uh, there's a little
more technical involvementthere.
Uh, they had to get proficientat using'em, had to have the
powder and shot, you know,available.
Um, you know, had to, had tomaintain these things'cause they
broke, keep them up and thatsort of thing.
Damian Bacich (29:58):
And weren't, they weren't the Californias, for
example, using Lance into the1840s at the Battle of San
Pasqua, for example.
They were, they were still verygood with them.
Michael Harwick (30:10):
Oh yeah.
Oh yeah.
I've actually, uh, when I wasreenacting this, I was, I built,
I got my own lance and I wastrying to figure out how to use
it and, uh, mount it.
I always wanted to try it on ahorse, but you gotta be very
careful when you're using one ofthose things because, uh, you
can, you can flip yourself offthe horse real easy if you're
(30:31):
not, if you're not delved at theway you handle the, the lance.
And they got to where theycould, they could twirl'em.
And bring them around in anattack position with the lance
over the top of the arm.
So if it impaled something andyou had to release it, you know,
you could let go and it would,it, it wouldn't, it wouldn't
(30:52):
take you off the horse, youknow, that sort of thing.
So they were very good at usingthese things.
In fact, they called themlancers of the king.
Damian Bacich (31:02):
There you go.
Michael Harwick (31:08):
So we go to the next slide there.
Uh, okay, now I mentioned thisearlier about the cannon, uh,
and when we went to the NavalAcademy, lo and behold, in front
of the administrators, threestar Admiral Administrators, uh,
(31:30):
house at the academy were two.
Light pieces of artillery bronzecannons that exactly matched
what I had seen in the inventoryat the Presidio of San Santa
Barbara, uh, 1782, and I don'tknow if you can see this, but
(31:51):
there is the, one of the ionsupper, the second photograph
top,
Damian Bacich (31:57):
Yeah, I can see it.
Michael Harwick (31:59):
yeah, it says seven Q 68, A seven Quintal, 768
pounds.
So that's, that was the clue.
I, I, I knew that by themeasurements of the, of the, of
Canon front, um, that I was afour pounder, uh, the weight
(32:23):
exactly matched what was on theinventory.
The bronze plate on the backsays, captured from the Mexicans
in California, 1845.
And then the, the, the clincherhere, the, uh, the cassbell in
the back, written across theresays who the gun founder was.
(32:48):
Josef Bonno, bar Barola andBarcelona.
Uh, uh, 1765.
So these cannons were made inBarcelona, cast designed by
Barola, the gun gun designer.
And they came from bar, theBarcelona, uh, Royal Foundry in
(33:10):
1765.
And in my book I talk about theBarcelona.
Gun foundry and they, they, uh,specialized in light artillery
for the, for the, uh, for thecolonies.
So these guns were the, this wasthe gun.
Not, probably not the gun, butthe type of gun that was at my,
(33:33):
our Presidio in Santa Barbara.
And indeed most of the presidiosbecause this was standard issue
for garrison's of that type.
So there you, there you see itas a four pound cannon light
artillery of the time and, uh,matches the 1782 inventory.
Damian Bacich (33:54):
There it is.
Michael Harwick (33:55):
There it is.
So this, this was like a firstbeing able to, um, identify
what, what canon was there.
Damian Bacich (34:04):
And these are on display in the open it seems,
from the photo.
Michael Harwick (34:08):
Yeah,
Damian Bacich (34:09):
yeah.
So you didn't have to dig backbehind some building somewhere.
Michael Harwick (34:13):
Yeah.
And when you wander around,well, they're right in front of
the, you know, the admiral'shouse that runs the academy.
You know, there's two of themthere.
They have a name on the guneach, but they, the thing that
they don't have is they don'thave the king cipher on the, on
the breach.
(34:33):
So that was that.
Let's go to the next one.
So you get an idea of what thepresidios were at the 17, early
17 hundreds.
They were there as garrison'sand they were mostly interested
in, uh, being able to preservethemselves from uprisings and
(34:56):
supporting the foundations ofthe missions and whatever.
And so California was divided upinto four military districts,
and each one of these militarydistricts had a presidio and a
garrison.
They had, uh, soldiers weredispatched from the Presidio to
(35:17):
establish missions.
And indeed, all the missions,each mission had what they
called an olta, uh, detachedfrom the, from the Presidio.
They would live at the missionand protect the, the friars and,
uh, sort of keep the peace, youknow, uh, during the time that
missions were being founded andeven after.
(35:38):
So that was the, that was themain goal initially, that after
1790, the emphasis became, uh,that of sea defense at the
Presidios because, um, you know,more ships were plying the coast
and even pirates, uh, were offthe coast.
So it became necessary to build,uh, to provide coastal defense.
(36:03):
And this is where we get into,uh, construction of what they
call Castillos or.
You know, um, coastal defense,uh, uh, uh, constructions now,
there were basically, go ahead.
Damian Bacich (36:21):
can we just jump back for one second?
How long was a typicalenlistment or contract for a
Presidio soldier, or Yeah.
How many years did he normallyserve?
Michael Harwick (36:32):
hard to say, but I think, um, many of them
actually did that.
As, you know, they were, theyactually retired doing that, you
know, being soldiers.
So it became like a, aprofession for them.
I mean, you know, when you thinkabout being on the frontier, if
you're in the army and suppliedby for food and munitions and
(36:55):
stuff, and your family is thereand you're living, um, that's,
that's a job.
You know, that's a way tosubsist.
So a lot of those soldiers were,became career soldiers.
Had families and theneventually, you know, got
ranches and, and that sort ofthing.
Damian Bacich (37:15):
Right.
Okay.
Michael Harwick (37:18):
So anyway, these royal engineers, after
1790 started putting in, uh,garrisons on the coast.
Problem is you, you, you can't,uh, fend off shipping with light
artillery four pound cannon.
You need, you need heavierordinance for that.
Well, unfortunately, Californiawas way out in the, in the
(37:40):
boondocks and trying to getpieces, heavy pieces of
artillery across the isus fromSpain into California was almost
impossible.
Um, so what they did is theywent down to Peru and they
liberated all these ancient, uh,Elizabeth and Cannon that were
(38:00):
down there.
I.
Brought'em up to, brought'em upfor coastal defense.
And the remnant of that is, youcan see at the San Francisco
Presidio, all of those cannonsdate from about 1600 and
something.
They were all cast in Peru, andthey're roughly eight pounders.
Um, the other thing thathappened when they brought these
(38:23):
cannons up, these are 16, uh,cannons minted and, and
manufactured in the 16 hundreds.
The boar sizes were differentthan the 18th century cannons,
which had standardized.
So now you had a problem ofcannon balls.
Where are you gonna get'em?
Because you're not, you're notable to cast iron on the, on
(38:45):
the, you know, on the Westcoast.
Uh, there weren't the, weren'tthe foundries for that, but they
did.
And were able to cast copper.
It bel it melts at a lowertemperature.
So now a lot of these cannonballs that you're gonna find.
Are made outta copper to fitthese new cannons or these old
(39:05):
cannons.
So, uh, that's what was firedout of those things.
So these guns were at thePresidio and built,
interestingly enough, cannonsjust like this, and with the
same dates minted in Peru are atthe, at the, at the, uh, uh,
Naval Academy in Washington orAnnapolis.
(39:27):
And you can see the same guns,the same Peruvian cam, you know,
Canon and stuff like that.
Even canon that were, um, uh,captured in Monterey.
Uh, a couple of them with thenames that were on the guns
there at the Naval Academy.
Damian Bacich (39:43):
Ah.
Michael Harwick (39:44):
So these, if you take another, my book
describes each one of these gunsat the San Francisco Presidio,
and they all have theirinteresting history of, of, of
who the, you know, what is onthe breach, who manufactured
them, uh, the weights orscribbled kind of in a funny way
on the, on the back of thecannon.
(40:05):
So there's a history there too.
These are beautiful pieces.
And the ones that, the ones thatare at the Naval Academy are in
not as good a condition becausethe weather back there is, is
eating away at all theinscriptions.
Damian Bacich (40:19):
Oh, what a shame.
Michael Harwick (40:21):
yeah.
But these at, uh, San Franciscoare in much better condition.
So were these casillos everused?
Um, there were two, two battles,uh, sea battles with foreign
shipping.
Uh, one of them was at Montereywhen the pirate bouchard
attacked.
(40:42):
He sacked Monterey, held it forsix days and burned it, and then
came down the coast andattacked, uh, FUO here in the
Santa Barbara area.
And then also, uh, the, uh, the,the, the Castillo in San Diego
fired on a, uh, American shipthat had, uh, uh, illegally come
(41:04):
into the uh, area.
So those are the two.
But the big thing you were doingwith those big guns is, you
know, you're, you're bringingthem out, you'd lay em out and
foreign shipping would come andthey'd see you had these cannons
and they'd report it.
So it was more show and go than,than anything else.
'cause it got very, very hard tobuild these castillos and they
(41:26):
didn't last very long.
Damian Bacich (41:28):
I was gonna ask you that I only, maybe a few
years ago when I startedresearching the US Mexican War
in California, that I found outabout the Castillo San Joaquin,
and I didn't realize there wasone in San Diego as Well, What,
what happened to these, You saidthat they didn't last long.
(41:49):
How?
How come they're not aroundanymore?
Michael Harwick (41:51):
these things required, uh, uh, you know,
maintenance upkeep right on theocean there.
The one at San Diego is rightthere at Point Loma L.
Point Loma, um, very, very closeto the submarine base.
Um, and, uh, it, it was laidout, uh, in such a way that, um,
(42:13):
you know, it could, it couldcontrol the entrance to the
harbor there.
So, um, in fact, there is onecannon, actually two Cannon in
San Diego, left.
From that, uh, Fort Curos is iscalled, and, uh, one of them
it's in the book.
Uh, was El Capitan, an ironpiece that was on, uh, downtown,
(42:38):
uh, old town San Diego for along time.
And the other one is El Jupiter.
That, uh, is a bronze cannonthat's in the S Museum.
Uh, and it was, it's been therefor, for ages.
The interesting thing about the,uh, Jupiter is that it was, uh,
it was cast in the Philippines,um, and all the inscriptions on
(43:00):
it, uh, allow you to, to kind oftrace, trace it.
And, uh, the Philippine foundrydidn't get started until the
18th century, so it was one ofthe early guns that came out of
that foundry.
But if you wander around the SanFrancisco Presidio, you'll see a
number of bronze 24 poundersthat were captured during the
(43:22):
Spanish American War andrelocated, you know, to the
garrison there at Presidio.
And, and many of them are castin Manila, and they're beautiful
things.
They weigh, they weigh an excessof 6,000 pounds.
Damian Bacich (43:38):
Wow.
Michael Harwick (43:39):
They're all over the place.
You know, at the entrance youcome in, there's a couple of,
couple of cannons on the, on thegate there, down by Chrissy
Field.
I think there's a couple of'em.
Damian Bacich (43:50):
Yeah,
Michael Harwick (43:51):
Those, you know, those guns,
Damian Bacich (43:52):
That concludes part one of my interview with
Michael Hardwick about Presidiosand SDOs on the California
frontier.
Stay tuned for the next episodewhen we continue our
conversation and talk about,among other things, pirates on
the coast of California.
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