April 3, 2025 • 37 mins
In the second part of my interview with Michael Hardwick, we hear about Hippolyte Bouchard, a pirate who raided California's coast, and learn about the history of the Spanish and Mexican presidios.
This episode explores sea battles, invasions, and the armaments used during California's conquest and defense.
Historian Michael R. Hardwick shares insights into powder supplies, Spanish cannons, and colonial history from 1769 to the Mexican War.
In an interesting twist, Michael introduces also us to Spanish horticultural practices at the California missions.
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damian@californiafrontier.net
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Damian Bacich (00:00):
Welcome to part two of my interview with Michael
(00:03):
Hardwick.
On the second part, we get intomore detail, especially about
pirates on the coast ofCalifornia and the attack by the
famous, uh, pirate.
I Bouchard.
We also talk about the fate.
Of some of these reallyinteresting cannons that were at
(00:24):
the Presidios.
And toward the end of theconversation we talk about the
history, preservation of historyin California, and we even get
into a very interestingdiscussion, which I hope to
continue later about, uh,horticulture in Spanish,
California.
So without further ado.
(00:46):
The second half of myconversation with Michael
Hardwick.
Can you talk a little bit aboutBouchard, who he was this pirate
that came down or, yeah, downthe coast.
Michael Harwick (01:05):
Uh, originally I think he, he was with
Napoleon, but he got a, a letterof, of, Mark, uh, from Argentina
to be, uh, to prey on Spanishshipping.
So he put together a fleet inHawaii and, uh, decided to come
raid the coast of California.
Uh, so he started up in Montereyand uh, they had a big sea
(01:31):
battle there.
Uh, and he actually captured thetown of Monterey, chased the
governor out.
Governor actually had to leavetown, and he burned the city and
held it for like six out sixdays.
And then he got.
Um, he got, he decided to justcome down the coast and start
(01:52):
ravaging the coast.
So he hit, he hit here, SantaBarbara area, Refugio, which was
a big, kind of a trading area,and he sacked that place and uh,
and then went, kept going southand, um, I think he, San Juan
Capistrano, I think he hit thatplace.
So anyway, this got the viceroyal up in arms, you know, and,
(02:17):
um, we didn't really have theforces available to fend off
this this sort of invasion.
So they decided they needed toput some, you know, some, some
defense up in this area.
Now we're talking 18, three orfour, or what is it?
18?
I don't have my dates right.
Damian Bacich (02:35):
What was it It, was it 18?
18, right.
Michael Harwick (02:41):
18.
18, yeah.
So that's in, we're pretty latein the, uh, in the period in the
Spanish period.
So anyway, in the, in thebeginning they were concerned
about the Russians and theEnglish because everybody was
sneaking into the coast heredoing hide and tallow trades
and, you know, illicitly tradingwith the, with the Spanish
(03:04):
people along the coast.
And, uh, and then later, youknow, people like Rashard and
Pirates came in here.
So it was a big, big tug of warto try to hold onto this
territory.
So the emphasis after the 1790swas, uh, trying to keep the
place from being taken over bySeaborne Invaders.
(03:26):
And prior to that it was, youknow, possible revolts of native
peoples.
Damian Bacich (03:31):
Should we go to the next one?
Michael Harwick (03:33):
Yeah, well now we get into, uh, the scan, the
Spanish cannon, the removal ofthem from California.
Uh, the top picture there, yousee the, uh, invasion, uh, of
Monterey, uh, in 1845.
And, uh, they capture the, uh,um, they capture a lot of the
(03:58):
cannons at that point.
Um, and, uh, let me see if I canget something in the book here
that talks a little bit aboutthat.
Um.
yeah, so that's a watercolor atthe top, uh, of the assault done
by William Henry, um Meyers.
(04:18):
This is in the book in 1842.
And to the right you can see a,uh, a battery with a circle of,
uh, and the flagpole.
And the garrison has got sixcounted, uh, cannon mount
mounted in a barbette up there.
And, um, so these are the cannonthat they, they, when they
(04:39):
stormed that, and, um, and thisis what they found when they
stormed it.
From the Ele Alen AlonzoJackson.
This is in the book.
Page 1 0 5 said The Stormersmarched up to the fort, which
was situated on a hill highhill, fronting the sea.
Here the Mexican colors wereflying.
(04:59):
These were soon hauled down andhoisted, and we hoisted the
stars and stripes.
The battery of the fortconsisted of 14 long brass and
iron guns with which aneffectual resistance might have
been made had they been properlyhandled.
We found that in the magazineabout a ton of powder with any
(05:21):
quantity of copper and ironshot.
As soon as we had possession ofFort, we went to work to prepare
for an attack from the inland.
We converted the magazine andsleeping apartment and so on.
We loaded all the, uh, so theywere ready to to, to fight off,
uh, anybody that might come.
(05:42):
So they were captured, the greatguns were captured, uh, in
Monterey, in San Francisco.
And these were, um, theElizabethan guns, but much like
what we have at, uh, Presidio,uh, San Francisco.
And, uh, and they were, uh, puton board Shep as trophies of war
(06:05):
and, um, and shipped to the eastcoast of the United States.
Um, and when the US uh, NavalAcademy was built in 1845, uh,
these Spanish cannon wererelocated to Annapolis and they
re currently reside at theacademy.
Um, so there you have it.
(06:27):
Um, that's how the guns gotthere.
And the center picture is a ca aone of those bronze guns
captured in 1842 at Monterey,the name of which matches, uh.
Of the guns that they captured.
And it's there at the academyright in front of Bancroft all.
(06:48):
And then the bottom picture is,is our presidio cannon that or
type cannon that we found thereat, at the, uh, at the academy.
Damian Bacich (06:59):
So he mentioned, um, that those guns were enough
to, to have amounted a, aneffective resistance had they
been employed.
Well, what do you think, what doyou think the issue was, there?
Was it because that Presidio atthat point was, was not really
manned very much?
(07:19):
or or why wasn't, why weren'tthey employed in a more
effective way?
Michael Harwick (07:24):
well this was during the Mexican period, uh,
uh, a lot of these, a lot ofthese, uh, defenses had gone
and, you know, had sort of goneinto, uh.
Uh, disarray.
You know, they weren't mannedproperly, they weren't supplied
properly, they didn't have theproper go artillerymen to
(07:47):
operate them.
Um, the, the materials werethere, but, um, uh, I don't
think when they, when Californiawas invaded by the Americans,
uh, during the Mexican war,there was very, they encountered
very much resistance.
Damian Bacich (08:05):
Right.
Michael Harwick (08:06):
You know, there were a couple of battles, ba
basically down around the LosAngeles area and what have you,
but I mean, you could seethere's a whole fleet of ships
that sitting there and, youknow, there's troops come
ashore.
And I don't think they were,they were gonna encounter, they,
I don't think in that area, theyencountered much resistance.
Damian Bacich (08:26):
Right now US Army occupied the Presidio San
Francisco.
It remained an army base upuntil fairly recently.
And, and the Presidio atMonterey is to this day.
But
Michael Harwick (08:41):
No.
Well,
Damian Bacich (08:43):
or, well, I mean it is, it's a military
installation.
Michael Harwick (08:46):
Yeah, Right.
Damian Bacich (08:48):
So, but that didn't happen with San Diego or
Santa Barbara.
Michael Harwick (08:53):
Uh, Santa Barbara Presidio.
Well, San Diego.
Let's talk about that.
Uh, the, the remains of thatPresidio is still up in Old
Town, up on the hill there bythe Sarah Museum.
And that became the settlementfor San Diego.
And, uh, you know, there was agarrison of soldiers there.
And then eventually thesesoldiers retired and moved down
(09:17):
the hill and started, lived,lived in those areas of, of Old
Town and whatever.
So, so eventually the Presidiojust sort of fell into disarray.
Adobe's built around it, and asim similar kind of thing
happened to Santa Barbara.
You know, it was, it became theold town, Santa Barbara and
Monterey, the same thing.
(09:38):
You know, the area around thePresidio became Old Town, you
know, Monterey.
And the, the only thing reallyleft is, you know, the, the
chapel right there where thePresidio was.
Damian Bacich (09:53):
Okay, but they call it the Presidio still, or
they call the the base.
There still the Presidio, butIt's not really
Michael Harwick (10:01):
It's not located downtown.
Damian Bacich (10:03):
Yeah.
yeah, yeah.
Michael Harwick (10:04):
Yeah.
Presidio is an army base now.
And, and what's on the Army baseis where the Castillo, the, the
Castillo, the old Castillo thatwas there at the, at the
Presidio is, is on the army baseon the bluff overlooking the
ocean there.
Damian Bacich (10:21):
Gotcha.
So can I ask you anotherquestion, just a technical one?
Uh, when, um, when Fremont, Ibelieve no.
Was it?
Well, anyway, I've heard theterm multiple times.
Um, spiking the cannons.
(10:42):
Yeah.
He spiked the cannons at, atthe, the Castillo, San Joaquin,
I believe in San Francisco.
What does it mean to spike acannon?
Michael Harwick (10:50):
Well, as you know, in order to light a fire,
a cannon, you got a touch holein the back.
So you typically, you load thecannon with a powder and put the
cannon ball in there, and thenyou have to go through the touch
hole and prick the charge witha, with a, a, a.
A wire or whatever, and then youpour powder into the touch hole,
(11:13):
and then you light off the touchhole, which lights off the
charge and fires the cannon.
So if you're gonna spike thecannon, what you do is you go up
and you uh, you, you block thetouch hole.
So what they would typically doin order to, to render a gun
useless, is go up and drive anail into the damn, you know,
(11:35):
touch hole to effectivelyprevent it from being fired.
Damian Bacich (11:40):
I see.
Okay.
That, that makes sense.
I couldn't understand if where,where the spike was placed, if
it was, if it was
Michael Harwick (11:47):
no, they were right in the, in the touch hole.
In fact, one of the Presidioguns, I, I think I name it in
the book, uh, was spiked andevidence of that, uh, can be
seen.
Um.
We're very fortunate that westill have those guns.
And if you're in the Presidioarea of San Francisco, take the
(12:08):
time to walk around thosethings.
They're, they're beautifulpieces of, of, of, sculpture.
They've got crests of the, youknow, of the ruling, uh,
families of Peru that, you know,that ma made that thing.
There's inscriptions on them,uh, dates, uh, you know, all
(12:29):
that sort of thing.
So it's a, it's a outstanding oother than being a, a weapon of
war, these things have, uh, aquality about them that rendered
them as beautiful pieces of art.
And when you think that thesethings were cast in the 1640s
and 1650s, look, you've got 300years or more of sculpture
(12:52):
staring you in the face.
You know, I think a lot ofpeople tend to ignore that.
Damian Bacich (12:58):
Right.
Is this on the cover of thebook?
You have, uh, an inscription onone of these cannons.
Is this one of these Peruvianones?
Uh, from the
Michael Harwick (13:09):
no.
This is, this is the, uh, codeof arms, the cipher where Carlos
III of Spain, each one of the,each one of the, each one of
the, uh, kings, uh, guns thatwere manufactured in royal arm
armor would, would have theircipher.
You some have Carlos the Firthfourth.
(13:30):
Uh, some have, you know, Philipthe second or whatever, all
these different ones.
Uh, so they're particularlybeautiful pieces of, of, uh, CIP
sculpture.
This particular, uh, ciphercomes from a cannon in San Juan
pr, Puerto Rico, um, since thisbook that I wrote deals with
(13:53):
that time period, Carlos iii,um, I.
And that picture just turns outto be a pretty nice one.
That's why I included it.
But this is in, this is one ofthe original bronze cannon in
the, uh, fortress there at SanJuan Puerto Rico.
Damian Bacich (14:11):
I see.
yeah.
it's, it's beautiful.
So was there what, was thereanything in particular writing
this book that.
It surprised you or that you,you came across that you didn't
expect along the
Michael Harwick (14:27):
yeah.
Oh yeah.
Well, one of the things I wasinterested in was I knew that,
um, you know,'cause I got intothe inventories year by year,
you know, of what was there.
Uh, I learned several things.
Um, let's see if I have these.
(14:49):
One of them is that by royalregulation.
Um.
So much powder was, was supposedto be kept on hand for each
soldier.
So if you garrisoned 55 or 60people, you had to, by royal
regulation, you had to have somuch powder on hand to supply
(15:10):
that soldier and to allow fortarget practice and to get him
proficient in using that, thatmusket.
And so your magazine had tohave, you know, 60, you know,
had to have enough powder to, tocover that by royal regulation.
Well, I did the math on what wason hand for the San San Barbara
(15:34):
Presidio over time, and theystarted out below what they
needed, but as time went, theybuilt up their stores and
ultimately wound up with more.
Uh, powder per man than theywere required to have.
And the reason I think it wouldbe they had that happened is
because, so getting supplies outhere were, was very difficult
(15:57):
because, you know, everythinghad to come by sea.
So they, over they overstockedwhen they, when it came to
powder, um, for these garrisonson this coast that came out as a
result of the study.
And then I discovered thingslike, gee, we did, we not only
had brown shot for our cannon,but they also had grape shot.
(16:19):
So they had prepared chargesavailable with gr grape in them,
you know, like a big, when youfire a shotgun kind of thing.
Only cannon size.
So they had grape shot roundsavailable.
Um, fireworks.
I surprised the heck outta me tosee all these fireworks and, um,
(16:40):
you know, uh.
They kept, they kept up on theirsupplies of of muskets and
modern ones.
So, you know, when the old oneswould wear out, they'd, they'd
get a new shipment in, of a newmuskets and issue'em.
Uh, they kept very, very closecontrol of their powder stores.
They inventoried it, theychecked out only so much, and
(17:02):
then the unused cartridges andpowder was checked back in
again.
So they were very careful aboutthe distribution of powder.
They didn't want it to get outand get into the wrong hands.
So that, that came out.
And then later I discovered astime went on, um, the, uh,
(17:26):
comment down the, of the, of theSanta Barbara Presidio, um, felt
that his two four pounder cannonwas more than he needed.
So he traded them off forsomething a little bit smaller.
And then he got into troublefrom the Viceroy who said, no,
that's not appropriate.
Get the, get your four Pounderback.
(17:46):
And so they were being watchedin terms of what they were
supposed to have.
Damian Bacich (17:52):
That's interesting being So, far away
on the frontier that and you
Michael Harwick (17:57):
but they were, they were writing back and
forth.
And like I say, they were being,you know, they were being in
inventoried on an annual basis.
What was the readiness?
How, you know, are they doingtheir, are they doing their
target practice?
Are they use, are they, are theyable to use their muskets?
I mean all this kinda stuff wasgoing on.
(18:22):
I'm losing you.
Uh, can you hear me?
Damian Bacich (18:24):
Yes.
I'm sorry, I, I had myselfmuted.
That probably ended fairlyabruptly in 1820 or 21.
Am I right?
You know
Michael Harwick (18:33):
I don't know that it ended abruptly, you
know, it changed.
it came, uh, you know, harderand harder to get supplies and,
um, Mexican period.
During the Mexican period, therewas a different shift.
Uh, the governors were moreinterested in, uh, secular
rising missions and distributingterritory back to the locals
(18:55):
and, you know, that sort ofthing.
So, uh, it became more, itbecame more difficult to
maintain an army, although theydid keep a garrison going here
for quite a while, you know, andit wasn't always staffed by, uh,
leather jacketed soldiers.
Later they brought in different,uh, types of, uh, infantry LAN
(19:16):
squad.
The LAN was here for a while.
They had some, uh, uh, up in thenorth.
They were catalonian volunteers.
They, they brought those, thosepeople in too.
You know, but this was alwaysthe presidios were always the
forts, the garrisons that housedthese people.
Damian Bacich (19:36):
I noticed you dedicated the book to Jack
Williams.
Michael Harwick (19:40):
Absolutely.
Damian Bacich (19:41):
I met Jack a few times, but I, I didn't know him
very Well, Could you tell us alittle bit about who he was and,
and the influence he had on you?
Michael Harwick (19:49):
Well, Jack Williams was, uh, some people
found he was an archeologist andhe, he did a lot of
archeological work.
I.
Arizona and, and California,whatever.
Uh, he was kind of a difficultguy in terms of getting reports
back from, from him.
Uh, one of the, one of the mostimportant things I think he ever
(20:10):
did was he, he actuallyexcavated the remains of the San
Diego Presidio.
Uh, I don't know how he managedto do that, uh, on a shoestring,
but he did.
And he got into a lot of whatthe work that he did.
He exposed the commandant's, uh,quarters, uh, commandant Zuniga
(20:30):
who was there, and there was alot of good information that
came out of that because you gotan insight into how these guys
lived.
You know, he had flowers aroundhis house.
He had, he had an insidecommode.
I mean, all these in intricatedetails that came out.
But anyway, more than that, Jackwas perhaps the best.
(20:54):
Scholar on the presidios of any,anybody that I've ever met
historically and otherwise.
So I would always go to Jack.
And so any of us who were doingPresidio reenacting and trying
to become soldiers andunderstand how they operated and
lived, Jack would always give usinsight.
(21:15):
And so, um, unfortunately he didnot, uh, he produced a few
books, but he, he passed away ata fairly young age.
He was a good artist.
Uh, as you see on the back of mybook, I have a drawing of the
San Diego Presidio that wasprobably done by him.
And there are numerous, uh,plates in the book that, that
(21:38):
he, he did.
So, yeah, we lost a realresource with when we lost Jack.
And I don't think anybody outthere, uh, even compares with
what he was able to do.
Damian Bacich (21:51):
Well, I hope with time we're able to, to access
more of his work.
I think, uh,
Michael Harwick (21:57):
It's a, it's a, it's a real problem because, uh,
he produced the CaliforniaMissions Foundation, uh, paid
him to produce a multi-volume,um, work of his, of the history
of the Presidios and that sortof thing, which he did.
Um, and, um, it was looked at bythem and decided it was very too
(22:21):
comprehensive to, to publish.
And it's still out there inpiecemeal fashion, but it needs
to be, it needs to really comeout.
Um, a lot of us, you know, thereare very few of us left who are
really into this Presidiohistory.
Unfortunately, it's, uh, as timehas gone on, the focus of
(22:44):
historians has been.
Other things, and this period ofhistory is kind of, you know,
um, well, let's just say it'snot as popular as it used to be.
So, uh, people like GeraldJackman, myself and others, uh,
we're trying to keep the torchalive, you know, in whatever way
(23:05):
we can.
And we're, we're trying to thinkof ways that we can republish
some of this material and get itout there, sort of reignite this
period of history because itreally is for California, uh,
our colonial history.
I mean, when you look at whathappened between 1769 and, you
(23:26):
know.
Uh, 1780s, whatever the missionspresidios, you know, in
California, all this is going onat a, at the same time that
things are happening on the eastand we're both fighting, we're
both fighting the English, thisside and the East coast.
And yet this history just sortof gets buried.
(23:48):
You know, the people that onlywant to carry it forward seem to
be the descendants and they'reso wrapped up in their
genealogies that they lose trackof the historical, uh,
components of, of, of whathappened there.
So that's where I've dedicatedmy efforts in my life, and
that's probably, I'll be dying,I'll die writing books about
(24:09):
Spanish colonial history, youknow, that we need more people
out there doing it.
Damian Bacich (24:15):
Yeah, I have hope.
Uh, we might be at a low E rightnow, but I do see, and even
through this podcast and, andother things, I, I see people
coming out of the woodwork who,who find it.
very interesting.
And also, you know, militaryhistory seems to never go outta
style.
And, you know, civil warhistory, for example, is, is
(24:37):
still immensely popular.
So, um, hopefully there'll be arevival because, you know,
California is growing.
Uh, I think hope we might be ata low ebb right now, but I, I
think in the long term I havehope Um,
Michael Harwick (24:53):
I hope so.
Yeah, we, were, we're trying todo it, we're trying to get ge,
Jerry wants to start this thing.
He calls a Presidio initiative,
Damian Bacich (25:01):
hmm.
Michael Harwick (25:02):
which is like a, a focus on that.
But we're looking, kinda lookingfor a home for that and trying
to involve people who havesimilar interests and get them
going, you know?
Um.
You know, during, duringBolton's time at the University
of California, historically theyproduced a lot of beau of good
histories in depth sort ofstudies.
(25:24):
And that, uh, that sort of iseclipsed, it's gone, uh, with,
uh, sort of, you know, we're, weare living in a flatlander
society today.
You know, it doesn't, doesn'tlike to look back much.
Um, but, uh, there's a, there'sa rich history, rich colonial
California history that reallyneeds a focus.
Damian Bacich (25:47):
Yeah, well we're doing our best here to try and
share it and, um.
Michael Harwick (25:52):
Well, hopefully people get interested in this
book.
It's, it's not just aboutcannons, it's, it's about, you
know, um, it's, it's about what,what, what, what it took to
support those garrisons.
And there's even lists ofsoldiers in there.
Uh, you know, so people who aredescendants could go back and
(26:13):
see if they're in, if theirdescendant is on one of those
lists.
You know,
Damian Bacich (26:18):
Now can we get it anywhere?
Can we get it on Amazon or, orany other place or where should
we order it?
Michael Harwick (26:23):
yeah, it actually hasn't.
I'm trying to get my publisherto go to Amazon, but currently
it's available through, uh, uh,special books.com.
Damian Bacich (26:35):
I will put the link on the website and on the,
in the show notes of thisepisode.
Michael Harwick (26:41):
Okay.
Yeah, that's good.
And I'm trying to get it, Imean, you know, if, if, if, uh,
bookstores will carry it, mypublisher will give them 40%
discount on orders of 10 ormore.
I've
Damian Bacich (26:54):
Well, I think it's ideal for all of the state
historic parks, the, themissions, um, all of those
places should have it.
And, and any bookstore ownerwho's listening that's
interested in Californiahistory, please stock Spanish
arms and armaments of theprocedures in California by
Michael r Hardwick.
Michael Harwick (27:13):
And it's, it's printed in full color.
I think you, I sent you an ebookand the, the print is really big
and good.
It's, it's, it's, it can almost,it's almost a good picture book
as well.
So, um, I did 200 copies and assoon as they're gone I'll do 200
more.
(27:34):
So we just keep it, keep it outthere.
Damian Bacich (27:39):
Well, Mike, uh, I want to thank you for, for
sticking around here for so longand, but mostly thank you for
writing this book, which I thinkis gonna be, uh, a very great
contribution to our history inCalifornia and for anybody
interested in Californiahistory, military history,
Spanish history, maritimehistory, the list goes on and it
(28:03):
is a beautiful book.
Um, and then of course you arework for the state parks for,
uh,
Michael Harwick (28:13):
Well, I did.
I was, yeah, I was a, I, I thinkwhat started me on this, I, I,
went to work for the California,uh, state parks up at Laima.
And, uh, I, uh, I established anarchive up there, um, and I
eventually became anintermittent park ranger.
And then, um.
(28:33):
Then I, you know, uh, had tofind a real job.
So I went to work for thecounty, but, uh, that's how I,
and, and that's where I retired.
But my work at Laima inspired myother two books, one of which is
Laima, uh, uh, a book on Laima.
The, uh, um,
Damian Bacich (28:54):
I have a copy of
Michael Harwick (28:55):
oh, do you?
Damian Bacich (28:56):
on my bookshelf.
Michael Harwick (28:57):
Yeah, yeah.
That turned out to be reallypopular.
Mainly my, because I, I did itthrough, uh, images of America,
the history press, and they'vegot a heck of a marketing team.
So they've, they've, they'restill pushing that thing, you
know?
So that's, uh, the enduringhistory of a California mission.
And then the other thing Inoticed at, at, at, uh, Lapa was
(29:21):
they, they put in a, a mi amission period garden.
So that got me interested inhorticulture.
So my first book was, uh, uh.
Changes in landscape, uh, the bethe beginnings of horticulture
and the California missions.
So that was, you know, what dothey grow in those gardens?
Not just their, their grainfields, but what every, every
(29:45):
mission had a where to ourgarden.
So what plants do we do we findin those gardens?
And that turned out to be apretty, pretty interesting book
too.
Damian Bacich (29:56):
Didn't, did you mention that you were involved
in the creation of the Huerta atMission Santa Barbara?
Is that right?
Yeah.
that's, that's still going to
Michael Harwick (30:04):
Now the Franciscan come and go, you
know, they start projects andthen they let'em lapse.
So, yeah.
Uh, person I collaborated withmy sister-in-law.
We decided, an environmentalhorticulturist decided that we
wanted to collect plants.
Early mission plants and thatwere, you know, that were grown
(30:27):
during, during mission times.
And so that's what's inspiredthe book.
And we did, we established thesquare to this garden, and as we
did, we found that these plantsthat were growing, they're much
different than what we havetoday.
You know, they, these were theearly hardy stock, uh, fruits
and vegetables and um, you know,there's a whole genetic thing
(30:49):
there.
You know, we geneticallymodified all this early stuff.
So, you know, a blueberry todayis, is six times bigger than the
blueberry that used to beyesterday.
You know, that sort of thing.
So a lot of things came out ofthat.
And I think we also inspired awhere to like project in Arizona
somewhere.
(31:10):
Uh, but we're trying to get thisthing back.
We lost our horticulturalistand, and the Franciscans locked
the gate, so we can't get backthere anymore.
But
Damian Bacich (31:20):
Oh.
Michael Harwick (31:21):
they're beginning to realize that, you
know, that they've leftsomething behind.
That is a potential, you know,good thing for tours and stuff.
Damian Bacich (31:31):
Yeah, we visited it a few years ago.
It was maybe three, well, it wasbefore the pandemic, so, and I
remember at that time it wasreally impressive.
Michael Harwick (31:43):
Oh yeah.
Yeah.
And we had bananas in there andwe had some of the early orange
trees that had spikes on'em, youknow, uh, that are much
different than the ones today.
Um, I even got so interested inthis.
I found that, uh, you know, LAPerus uh, introduced the potato
(32:04):
from Peru in California in the1780s.
He dropped off some, some ofthem up in Monterey and they
planted them.
And so we had, in the northernareas, we had potatoes growing,
you know, during that timeperiod.
Damian Bacich (32:19):
Huh?
Michael Harwick (32:20):
Ultimately the Russians got these things and
took'em up to Sitka, Alaska,and, uh, they all died out here.
But, uh, any, the Indians upthere kept the potatoes going
and, uh, they recentlydiscovered some of these ancient
potatoes growing and cultivatedthem.
(32:40):
And so I, I got, I contactedthem and they sent me some
potatoes from Alaska and we weregonna gonna plan'em out there.
And we did plan'em.
Inta, unfortunately, they, theydidn't last because of weather
and everything, but, uh, wastrying to get the potato back
here, you know, to California,the original one.
(33:04):
I think you muted again.
Damian Bacich (33:06):
Ah, sorry.
Yeah, so it was, it was toowarm.
Is that the point?
Michael Harwick (33:10):
Yeah.
Yeah, it's a northern, uh, youknow, it, it takes a little
cooler climate for those togrow.
And, uh, but I mean, LA ofcourse, later we, they hybrid
eyes, the things, and, you know,we got these monster potatoes
now and, you know, originalpotatoes were little guys,
Damian Bacich (33:29):
Mm-hmm.
Michael Harwick (33:31):
but, um, yeah, things like that, you know, I
mean, you got into it and I, Ididn't get that information, uh,
from original records.
I had to get that informationfrom Victorian visits of the
missions.
Uh, they, they came and theywrote books and they said, oh,
the garden is still there atthese various missions, and
(33:52):
here's what's in it.
So from that, I was able todetermine, you know, the plants
that were, were, were at thevarious missions.
Damian Bacich (34:02):
Ah, how interesting.
Michael Harwick (34:03):
And yeah, it's, it's amazing'cause those things
went on for a long time.
You know, even our grape stock,you know, uses original,
original mission, grape stock,and then he grafts stuff onto
it, you know, and then, and soin the Victorian period there's
a pure fusion of, of plants thatcome into California.
But before that, you know, we'restill, we're still looking at
(34:26):
mission era plants that aregrowing in and around the
various missions.
Damian Bacich (34:32):
Well sometime if you've got time, I'd love to ask
you some more about thatspecific topic because that
sounds very interesting as Well,
Michael Harwick (34:39):
Well, I put a, uh, my first book went out to
document that and I have sinceupgraded it.
And, uh, that'll probably be mynext book because we revised
edition of that book.
Damian Bacich (34:51):
Well, I'll be looking forward to that one.
Michael Harwick (34:53):
Yeah.
I only had a few missions in it,um, originally, but, uh, the new
one has got virtually all themissions in it.
Damian Bacich (35:01):
Oh wow.
Okay, Yeah.
Yeah.
well Mike, uh, thank you so muchfor this.
I will, um, I think, I hopeeverybody gets, goes out and
gets the book and, uh, we'llthis will be, you can either
watch it on YouTube or listen asa podcast, but, uh, the, um, the
(35:22):
images will certainly beavailable on the video, so, so,
yeah.
Thank you so much.
Michael Harwick (35:29):
well if anybody has a trouble getting the book,
they can actually write to medirect and I, I'll give'em a$5
discount
Damian Bacich (35:35):
Excellent.
Michael Harwick (35:36):
$35 book and, and throw the shipping in for
free if they're interested.
Damian Bacich (35:42):
Okay, so I'll put, I'll, uh, I'll put your
email on the, uh,
Michael Harwick (35:46):
Yeah, sure.
Yeah.
Damian Bacich (35:49):
Well, great.
Thank you so much, Mike.
Michael Harwick (35:51):
Well, I appreciate it and hopefully
we'll, uh, get together more,hear more from you./
Welcome to part two of my interview with Michael
(00:03):
Hardwick.
On the second part, we get intomore detail, especially about
pirates on the coast ofCalifornia and the attack by the
famous, uh, pirate.
I Bouchard.
We also talk about the fate.
Of some of these reallyinteresting cannons that were at
(00:24):
the Presidios.
And toward the end of theconversation we talk about the
history, preservation of historyin California, and we even get
into a very interestingdiscussion, which I hope to
continue later about, uh,horticulture in Spanish,
California.
So without further ado.
(00:46):
The second half of myconversation with Michael
Hardwick.
Can you talk a little bit aboutBouchard, who he was this pirate
that came down or, yeah, downthe coast.
Michael Harwick (01:05):
Uh, originally I think he, he was with
Napoleon, but he got a, a letterof, of, Mark, uh, from Argentina
to be, uh, to prey on Spanishshipping.
So he put together a fleet inHawaii and, uh, decided to come
raid the coast of California.
Uh, so he started up in Montereyand uh, they had a big sea
(01:31):
battle there.
Uh, and he actually captured thetown of Monterey, chased the
governor out.
Governor actually had to leavetown, and he burned the city and
held it for like six out sixdays.
And then he got.
Um, he got, he decided to justcome down the coast and start
(01:52):
ravaging the coast.
So he hit, he hit here, SantaBarbara area, Refugio, which was
a big, kind of a trading area,and he sacked that place and uh,
and then went, kept going southand, um, I think he, San Juan
Capistrano, I think he hit thatplace.
So anyway, this got the viceroyal up in arms, you know, and,
(02:17):
um, we didn't really have theforces available to fend off
this this sort of invasion.
So they decided they needed toput some, you know, some, some
defense up in this area.
Now we're talking 18, three orfour, or what is it?
18?
I don't have my dates right.
Damian Bacich (02:35):
What was it It, was it 18?
18, right.
Michael Harwick (02:41):
18.
18, yeah.
So that's in, we're pretty latein the, uh, in the period in the
Spanish period.
So anyway, in the, in thebeginning they were concerned
about the Russians and theEnglish because everybody was
sneaking into the coast heredoing hide and tallow trades
and, you know, illicitly tradingwith the, with the Spanish
(03:04):
people along the coast.
And, uh, and then later, youknow, people like Rashard and
Pirates came in here.
So it was a big, big tug of warto try to hold onto this
territory.
So the emphasis after the 1790swas, uh, trying to keep the
place from being taken over bySeaborne Invaders.
(03:26):
And prior to that it was, youknow, possible revolts of native
peoples.
Damian Bacich (03:31):
Should we go to the next one?
Michael Harwick (03:33):
Yeah, well now we get into, uh, the scan, the
Spanish cannon, the removal ofthem from California.
Uh, the top picture there, yousee the, uh, invasion, uh, of
Monterey, uh, in 1845.
And, uh, they capture the, uh,um, they capture a lot of the
(03:58):
cannons at that point.
Um, and, uh, let me see if I canget something in the book here
that talks a little bit aboutthat.
Um.
yeah, so that's a watercolor atthe top, uh, of the assault done
by William Henry, um Meyers.
(04:18):
This is in the book in 1842.
And to the right you can see a,uh, a battery with a circle of,
uh, and the flagpole.
And the garrison has got sixcounted, uh, cannon mount
mounted in a barbette up there.
And, um, so these are the cannonthat they, they, when they
(04:39):
stormed that, and, um, and thisis what they found when they
stormed it.
From the Ele Alen AlonzoJackson.
This is in the book.
Page 1 0 5 said The Stormersmarched up to the fort, which
was situated on a hill highhill, fronting the sea.
Here the Mexican colors wereflying.
(04:59):
These were soon hauled down andhoisted, and we hoisted the
stars and stripes.
The battery of the fortconsisted of 14 long brass and
iron guns with which aneffectual resistance might have
been made had they been properlyhandled.
We found that in the magazineabout a ton of powder with any
(05:21):
quantity of copper and ironshot.
As soon as we had possession ofFort, we went to work to prepare
for an attack from the inland.
We converted the magazine andsleeping apartment and so on.
We loaded all the, uh, so theywere ready to to, to fight off,
uh, anybody that might come.
(05:42):
So they were captured, the greatguns were captured, uh, in
Monterey, in San Francisco.
And these were, um, theElizabethan guns, but much like
what we have at, uh, Presidio,uh, San Francisco.
And, uh, and they were, uh, puton board Shep as trophies of war
(06:05):
and, um, and shipped to the eastcoast of the United States.
Um, and when the US uh, NavalAcademy was built in 1845, uh,
these Spanish cannon wererelocated to Annapolis and they
re currently reside at theacademy.
Um, so there you have it.
(06:27):
Um, that's how the guns gotthere.
And the center picture is a ca aone of those bronze guns
captured in 1842 at Monterey,the name of which matches, uh.
Of the guns that they captured.
And it's there at the academyright in front of Bancroft all.
(06:48):
And then the bottom picture is,is our presidio cannon that or
type cannon that we found thereat, at the, uh, at the academy.
Damian Bacich (06:59):
So he mentioned, um, that those guns were enough
to, to have amounted a, aneffective resistance had they
been employed.
Well, what do you think, what doyou think the issue was, there?
Was it because that Presidio atthat point was, was not really
manned very much?
(07:19):
or or why wasn't, why weren'tthey employed in a more
effective way?
Michael Harwick (07:24):
well this was during the Mexican period, uh,
uh, a lot of these, a lot ofthese, uh, defenses had gone
and, you know, had sort of goneinto, uh.
Uh, disarray.
You know, they weren't mannedproperly, they weren't supplied
properly, they didn't have theproper go artillerymen to
(07:47):
operate them.
Um, the, the materials werethere, but, um, uh, I don't
think when they, when Californiawas invaded by the Americans,
uh, during the Mexican war,there was very, they encountered
very much resistance.
Damian Bacich (08:05):
Right.
Michael Harwick (08:06):
You know, there were a couple of battles, ba
basically down around the LosAngeles area and what have you,
but I mean, you could seethere's a whole fleet of ships
that sitting there and, youknow, there's troops come
ashore.
And I don't think they were,they were gonna encounter, they,
I don't think in that area, theyencountered much resistance.
Damian Bacich (08:26):
Right now US Army occupied the Presidio San
Francisco.
It remained an army base upuntil fairly recently.
And, and the Presidio atMonterey is to this day.
But
Michael Harwick (08:41):
No.
Well,
Damian Bacich (08:43):
or, well, I mean it is, it's a military
installation.
Michael Harwick (08:46):
Yeah, Right.
Damian Bacich (08:48):
So, but that didn't happen with San Diego or
Santa Barbara.
Michael Harwick (08:53):
Uh, Santa Barbara Presidio.
Well, San Diego.
Let's talk about that.
Uh, the, the remains of thatPresidio is still up in Old
Town, up on the hill there bythe Sarah Museum.
And that became the settlementfor San Diego.
And, uh, you know, there was agarrison of soldiers there.
And then eventually thesesoldiers retired and moved down
(09:17):
the hill and started, lived,lived in those areas of, of Old
Town and whatever.
So, so eventually the Presidiojust sort of fell into disarray.
Adobe's built around it, and asim similar kind of thing
happened to Santa Barbara.
You know, it was, it became theold town, Santa Barbara and
Monterey, the same thing.
(09:38):
You know, the area around thePresidio became Old Town, you
know, Monterey.
And the, the only thing reallyleft is, you know, the, the
chapel right there where thePresidio was.
Damian Bacich (09:53):
Okay, but they call it the Presidio still, or
they call the the base.
There still the Presidio, butIt's not really
Michael Harwick (10:01):
It's not located downtown.
Damian Bacich (10:03):
Yeah.
yeah, yeah.
Michael Harwick (10:04):
Yeah.
Presidio is an army base now.
And, and what's on the Army baseis where the Castillo, the, the
Castillo, the old Castillo thatwas there at the, at the
Presidio is, is on the army baseon the bluff overlooking the
ocean there.
Damian Bacich (10:21):
Gotcha.
So can I ask you anotherquestion, just a technical one?
Uh, when, um, when Fremont, Ibelieve no.
Was it?
Well, anyway, I've heard theterm multiple times.
Um, spiking the cannons.
(10:42):
Yeah.
He spiked the cannons at, atthe, the Castillo, San Joaquin,
I believe in San Francisco.
What does it mean to spike acannon?
Michael Harwick (10:50):
Well, as you know, in order to light a fire,
a cannon, you got a touch holein the back.
So you typically, you load thecannon with a powder and put the
cannon ball in there, and thenyou have to go through the touch
hole and prick the charge witha, with a, a, a.
A wire or whatever, and then youpour powder into the touch hole,
(11:13):
and then you light off the touchhole, which lights off the
charge and fires the cannon.
So if you're gonna spike thecannon, what you do is you go up
and you uh, you, you block thetouch hole.
So what they would typically doin order to, to render a gun
useless, is go up and drive anail into the damn, you know,
(11:35):
touch hole to effectivelyprevent it from being fired.
Damian Bacich (11:40):
I see.
Okay.
That, that makes sense.
I couldn't understand if where,where the spike was placed, if
it was, if it was
Michael Harwick (11:47):
no, they were right in the, in the touch hole.
In fact, one of the Presidioguns, I, I think I name it in
the book, uh, was spiked andevidence of that, uh, can be
seen.
Um.
We're very fortunate that westill have those guns.
And if you're in the Presidioarea of San Francisco, take the
(12:08):
time to walk around thosethings.
They're, they're beautifulpieces of, of, of, sculpture.
They've got crests of the, youknow, of the ruling, uh,
families of Peru that, you know,that ma made that thing.
There's inscriptions on them,uh, dates, uh, you know, all
(12:29):
that sort of thing.
So it's a, it's a outstanding oother than being a, a weapon of
war, these things have, uh, aquality about them that rendered
them as beautiful pieces of art.
And when you think that thesethings were cast in the 1640s
and 1650s, look, you've got 300years or more of sculpture
(12:52):
staring you in the face.
You know, I think a lot ofpeople tend to ignore that.
Damian Bacich (12:58):
Right.
Is this on the cover of thebook?
You have, uh, an inscription onone of these cannons.
Is this one of these Peruvianones?
Uh, from the
Michael Harwick (13:09):
no.
This is, this is the, uh, codeof arms, the cipher where Carlos
III of Spain, each one of the,each one of the, each one of
the, uh, kings, uh, guns thatwere manufactured in royal arm
armor would, would have theircipher.
You some have Carlos the Firthfourth.
(13:30):
Uh, some have, you know, Philipthe second or whatever, all
these different ones.
Uh, so they're particularlybeautiful pieces of, of, uh, CIP
sculpture.
This particular, uh, ciphercomes from a cannon in San Juan
pr, Puerto Rico, um, since thisbook that I wrote deals with
(13:53):
that time period, Carlos iii,um, I.
And that picture just turns outto be a pretty nice one.
That's why I included it.
But this is in, this is one ofthe original bronze cannon in
the, uh, fortress there at SanJuan Puerto Rico.
Damian Bacich (14:11):
I see.
yeah.
it's, it's beautiful.
So was there what, was thereanything in particular writing
this book that.
It surprised you or that you,you came across that you didn't
expect along the
Michael Harwick (14:27):
yeah.
Oh yeah.
Well, one of the things I wasinterested in was I knew that,
um, you know,'cause I got intothe inventories year by year,
you know, of what was there.
Uh, I learned several things.
Um, let's see if I have these.
(14:49):
One of them is that by royalregulation.
Um.
So much powder was, was supposedto be kept on hand for each
soldier.
So if you garrisoned 55 or 60people, you had to, by royal
regulation, you had to have somuch powder on hand to supply
(15:10):
that soldier and to allow fortarget practice and to get him
proficient in using that, thatmusket.
And so your magazine had tohave, you know, 60, you know,
had to have enough powder to, tocover that by royal regulation.
Well, I did the math on what wason hand for the San San Barbara
(15:34):
Presidio over time, and theystarted out below what they
needed, but as time went, theybuilt up their stores and
ultimately wound up with more.
Uh, powder per man than theywere required to have.
And the reason I think it wouldbe they had that happened is
because, so getting supplies outhere were, was very difficult
(15:57):
because, you know, everythinghad to come by sea.
So they, over they overstockedwhen they, when it came to
powder, um, for these garrisonson this coast that came out as a
result of the study.
And then I discovered thingslike, gee, we did, we not only
had brown shot for our cannon,but they also had grape shot.
(16:19):
So they had prepared chargesavailable with gr grape in them,
you know, like a big, when youfire a shotgun kind of thing.
Only cannon size.
So they had grape shot roundsavailable.
Um, fireworks.
I surprised the heck outta me tosee all these fireworks and, um,
(16:40):
you know, uh.
They kept, they kept up on theirsupplies of of muskets and
modern ones.
So, you know, when the old oneswould wear out, they'd, they'd
get a new shipment in, of a newmuskets and issue'em.
Uh, they kept very, very closecontrol of their powder stores.
They inventoried it, theychecked out only so much, and
(17:02):
then the unused cartridges andpowder was checked back in
again.
So they were very careful aboutthe distribution of powder.
They didn't want it to get outand get into the wrong hands.
So that, that came out.
And then later I discovered astime went on, um, the, uh,
(17:26):
comment down the, of the, of theSanta Barbara Presidio, um, felt
that his two four pounder cannonwas more than he needed.
So he traded them off forsomething a little bit smaller.
And then he got into troublefrom the Viceroy who said, no,
that's not appropriate.
Get the, get your four Pounderback.
(17:46):
And so they were being watchedin terms of what they were
supposed to have.
Damian Bacich (17:52):
That's interesting being So, far away
on the frontier that and you
Michael Harwick (17:57):
but they were, they were writing back and
forth.
And like I say, they were being,you know, they were being in
inventoried on an annual basis.
What was the readiness?
How, you know, are they doingtheir, are they doing their
target practice?
Are they use, are they, are theyable to use their muskets?
I mean all this kinda stuff wasgoing on.
(18:22):
I'm losing you.
Uh, can you hear me?
Damian Bacich (18:24):
Yes.
I'm sorry, I, I had myselfmuted.
That probably ended fairlyabruptly in 1820 or 21.
Am I right?
You know
Michael Harwick (18:33):
I don't know that it ended abruptly, you
know, it changed.
it came, uh, you know, harderand harder to get supplies and,
um, Mexican period.
During the Mexican period, therewas a different shift.
Uh, the governors were moreinterested in, uh, secular
rising missions and distributingterritory back to the locals
(18:55):
and, you know, that sort ofthing.
So, uh, it became more, itbecame more difficult to
maintain an army, although theydid keep a garrison going here
for quite a while, you know, andit wasn't always staffed by, uh,
leather jacketed soldiers.
Later they brought in different,uh, types of, uh, infantry LAN
(19:16):
squad.
The LAN was here for a while.
They had some, uh, uh, up in thenorth.
They were catalonian volunteers.
They, they brought those, thosepeople in too.
You know, but this was alwaysthe presidios were always the
forts, the garrisons that housedthese people.
Damian Bacich (19:36):
I noticed you dedicated the book to Jack
Williams.
Michael Harwick (19:40):
Absolutely.
Damian Bacich (19:41):
I met Jack a few times, but I, I didn't know him
very Well, Could you tell us alittle bit about who he was and,
and the influence he had on you?
Michael Harwick (19:49):
Well, Jack Williams was, uh, some people
found he was an archeologist andhe, he did a lot of
archeological work.
I.
Arizona and, and California,whatever.
Uh, he was kind of a difficultguy in terms of getting reports
back from, from him.
Uh, one of the, one of the mostimportant things I think he ever
(20:10):
did was he, he actuallyexcavated the remains of the San
Diego Presidio.
Uh, I don't know how he managedto do that, uh, on a shoestring,
but he did.
And he got into a lot of whatthe work that he did.
He exposed the commandant's, uh,quarters, uh, commandant Zuniga
(20:30):
who was there, and there was alot of good information that
came out of that because you gotan insight into how these guys
lived.
You know, he had flowers aroundhis house.
He had, he had an insidecommode.
I mean, all these in intricatedetails that came out.
But anyway, more than that, Jackwas perhaps the best.
(20:54):
Scholar on the presidios of any,anybody that I've ever met
historically and otherwise.
So I would always go to Jack.
And so any of us who were doingPresidio reenacting and trying
to become soldiers andunderstand how they operated and
lived, Jack would always give usinsight.
(21:15):
And so, um, unfortunately he didnot, uh, he produced a few
books, but he, he passed away ata fairly young age.
He was a good artist.
Uh, as you see on the back of mybook, I have a drawing of the
San Diego Presidio that wasprobably done by him.
And there are numerous, uh,plates in the book that, that
(21:38):
he, he did.
So, yeah, we lost a realresource with when we lost Jack.
And I don't think anybody outthere, uh, even compares with
what he was able to do.
Damian Bacich (21:51):
Well, I hope with time we're able to, to access
more of his work.
I think, uh,
Michael Harwick (21:57):
It's a, it's a, it's a real problem because, uh,
he produced the CaliforniaMissions Foundation, uh, paid
him to produce a multi-volume,um, work of his, of the history
of the Presidios and that sortof thing, which he did.
Um, and, um, it was looked at bythem and decided it was very too
(22:21):
comprehensive to, to publish.
And it's still out there inpiecemeal fashion, but it needs
to be, it needs to really comeout.
Um, a lot of us, you know, thereare very few of us left who are
really into this Presidiohistory.
Unfortunately, it's, uh, as timehas gone on, the focus of
(22:44):
historians has been.
Other things, and this period ofhistory is kind of, you know,
um, well, let's just say it'snot as popular as it used to be.
So, uh, people like GeraldJackman, myself and others, uh,
we're trying to keep the torchalive, you know, in whatever way
(23:05):
we can.
And we're, we're trying to thinkof ways that we can republish
some of this material and get itout there, sort of reignite this
period of history because itreally is for California, uh,
our colonial history.
I mean, when you look at whathappened between 1769 and, you
(23:26):
know.
Uh, 1780s, whatever the missionspresidios, you know, in
California, all this is going onat a, at the same time that
things are happening on the eastand we're both fighting, we're
both fighting the English, thisside and the East coast.
And yet this history just sortof gets buried.
(23:48):
You know, the people that onlywant to carry it forward seem to
be the descendants and they'reso wrapped up in their
genealogies that they lose trackof the historical, uh,
components of, of, of whathappened there.
So that's where I've dedicatedmy efforts in my life, and
that's probably, I'll be dying,I'll die writing books about
(24:09):
Spanish colonial history, youknow, that we need more people
out there doing it.
Damian Bacich (24:15):
Yeah, I have hope.
Uh, we might be at a low E rightnow, but I do see, and even
through this podcast and, andother things, I, I see people
coming out of the woodwork who,who find it.
very interesting.
And also, you know, militaryhistory seems to never go outta
style.
And, you know, civil warhistory, for example, is, is
(24:37):
still immensely popular.
So, um, hopefully there'll be arevival because, you know,
California is growing.
Uh, I think hope we might be ata low ebb right now, but I, I
think in the long term I havehope Um,
Michael Harwick (24:53):
I hope so.
Yeah, we, were, we're trying todo it, we're trying to get ge,
Jerry wants to start this thing.
He calls a Presidio initiative,
Damian Bacich (25:01):
hmm.
Michael Harwick (25:02):
which is like a, a focus on that.
But we're looking, kinda lookingfor a home for that and trying
to involve people who havesimilar interests and get them
going, you know?
Um.
You know, during, duringBolton's time at the University
of California, historically theyproduced a lot of beau of good
histories in depth sort ofstudies.
(25:24):
And that, uh, that sort of iseclipsed, it's gone, uh, with,
uh, sort of, you know, we're, weare living in a flatlander
society today.
You know, it doesn't, doesn'tlike to look back much.
Um, but, uh, there's a, there'sa rich history, rich colonial
California history that reallyneeds a focus.
Damian Bacich (25:47):
Yeah, well we're doing our best here to try and
share it and, um.
Michael Harwick (25:52):
Well, hopefully people get interested in this
book.
It's, it's not just aboutcannons, it's, it's about, you
know, um, it's, it's about what,what, what, what it took to
support those garrisons.
And there's even lists ofsoldiers in there.
Uh, you know, so people who aredescendants could go back and
(26:13):
see if they're in, if theirdescendant is on one of those
lists.
You know,
Damian Bacich (26:18):
Now can we get it anywhere?
Can we get it on Amazon or, orany other place or where should
we order it?
Michael Harwick (26:23):
yeah, it actually hasn't.
I'm trying to get my publisherto go to Amazon, but currently
it's available through, uh, uh,special books.com.
Damian Bacich (26:35):
I will put the link on the website and on the,
in the show notes of thisepisode.
Michael Harwick (26:41):
Okay.
Yeah, that's good.
And I'm trying to get it, Imean, you know, if, if, if, uh,
bookstores will carry it, mypublisher will give them 40%
discount on orders of 10 ormore.
I've
Damian Bacich (26:54):
Well, I think it's ideal for all of the state
historic parks, the, themissions, um, all of those
places should have it.
And, and any bookstore ownerwho's listening that's
interested in Californiahistory, please stock Spanish
arms and armaments of theprocedures in California by
Michael r Hardwick.
Michael Harwick (27:13):
And it's, it's printed in full color.
I think you, I sent you an ebookand the, the print is really big
and good.
It's, it's, it's, it can almost,it's almost a good picture book
as well.
So, um, I did 200 copies and assoon as they're gone I'll do 200
more.
(27:34):
So we just keep it, keep it outthere.
Damian Bacich (27:39):
Well, Mike, uh, I want to thank you for, for
sticking around here for so longand, but mostly thank you for
writing this book, which I thinkis gonna be, uh, a very great
contribution to our history inCalifornia and for anybody
interested in Californiahistory, military history,
Spanish history, maritimehistory, the list goes on and it
(28:03):
is a beautiful book.
Um, and then of course you arework for the state parks for,
uh,
Michael Harwick (28:13):
Well, I did.
I was, yeah, I was a, I, I thinkwhat started me on this, I, I,
went to work for the California,uh, state parks up at Laima.
And, uh, I, uh, I established anarchive up there, um, and I
eventually became anintermittent park ranger.
And then, um.
(28:33):
Then I, you know, uh, had tofind a real job.
So I went to work for thecounty, but, uh, that's how I,
and, and that's where I retired.
But my work at Laima inspired myother two books, one of which is
Laima, uh, uh, a book on Laima.
The, uh, um,
Damian Bacich (28:54):
I have a copy of
Michael Harwick (28:55):
oh, do you?
Damian Bacich (28:56):
on my bookshelf.
Michael Harwick (28:57):
Yeah, yeah.
That turned out to be reallypopular.
Mainly my, because I, I did itthrough, uh, images of America,
the history press, and they'vegot a heck of a marketing team.
So they've, they've, they'restill pushing that thing, you
know?
So that's, uh, the enduringhistory of a California mission.
And then the other thing Inoticed at, at, at, uh, Lapa was
(29:21):
they, they put in a, a mi amission period garden.
So that got me interested inhorticulture.
So my first book was, uh, uh.
Changes in landscape, uh, the bethe beginnings of horticulture
and the California missions.
So that was, you know, what dothey grow in those gardens?
Not just their, their grainfields, but what every, every
(29:45):
mission had a where to ourgarden.
So what plants do we do we findin those gardens?
And that turned out to be apretty, pretty interesting book
too.
Damian Bacich (29:56):
Didn't, did you mention that you were involved
in the creation of the Huerta atMission Santa Barbara?
Is that right?
Yeah.
that's, that's still going to
Michael Harwick (30:04):
Now the Franciscan come and go, you
know, they start projects andthen they let'em lapse.
So, yeah.
Uh, person I collaborated withmy sister-in-law.
We decided, an environmentalhorticulturist decided that we
wanted to collect plants.
Early mission plants and thatwere, you know, that were grown
(30:27):
during, during mission times.
And so that's what's inspiredthe book.
And we did, we established thesquare to this garden, and as we
did, we found that these plantsthat were growing, they're much
different than what we havetoday.
You know, they, these were theearly hardy stock, uh, fruits
and vegetables and um, you know,there's a whole genetic thing
(30:49):
there.
You know, we geneticallymodified all this early stuff.
So, you know, a blueberry todayis, is six times bigger than the
blueberry that used to beyesterday.
You know, that sort of thing.
So a lot of things came out ofthat.
And I think we also inspired awhere to like project in Arizona
somewhere.
(31:10):
Uh, but we're trying to get thisthing back.
We lost our horticulturalistand, and the Franciscans locked
the gate, so we can't get backthere anymore.
But
Damian Bacich (31:20):
Oh.
Michael Harwick (31:21):
they're beginning to realize that, you
know, that they've leftsomething behind.
That is a potential, you know,good thing for tours and stuff.
Damian Bacich (31:31):
Yeah, we visited it a few years ago.
It was maybe three, well, it wasbefore the pandemic, so, and I
remember at that time it wasreally impressive.
Michael Harwick (31:43):
Oh yeah.
Yeah.
And we had bananas in there andwe had some of the early orange
trees that had spikes on'em, youknow, uh, that are much
different than the ones today.
Um, I even got so interested inthis.
I found that, uh, you know, LAPerus uh, introduced the potato
(32:04):
from Peru in California in the1780s.
He dropped off some, some ofthem up in Monterey and they
planted them.
And so we had, in the northernareas, we had potatoes growing,
you know, during that timeperiod.
Damian Bacich (32:19):
Huh?
Michael Harwick (32:20):
Ultimately the Russians got these things and
took'em up to Sitka, Alaska,and, uh, they all died out here.
But, uh, any, the Indians upthere kept the potatoes going
and, uh, they recentlydiscovered some of these ancient
potatoes growing and cultivatedthem.
(32:40):
And so I, I got, I contactedthem and they sent me some
potatoes from Alaska and we weregonna gonna plan'em out there.
And we did plan'em.
Inta, unfortunately, they, theydidn't last because of weather
and everything, but, uh, wastrying to get the potato back
here, you know, to California,the original one.
(33:04):
I think you muted again.
Damian Bacich (33:06):
Ah, sorry.
Yeah, so it was, it was toowarm.
Is that the point?
Michael Harwick (33:10):
Yeah.
Yeah, it's a northern, uh, youknow, it, it takes a little
cooler climate for those togrow.
And, uh, but I mean, LA ofcourse, later we, they hybrid
eyes, the things, and, you know,we got these monster potatoes
now and, you know, originalpotatoes were little guys,
Damian Bacich (33:29):
Mm-hmm.
Michael Harwick (33:31):
but, um, yeah, things like that, you know, I
mean, you got into it and I, Ididn't get that information, uh,
from original records.
I had to get that informationfrom Victorian visits of the
missions.
Uh, they, they came and theywrote books and they said, oh,
the garden is still there atthese various missions, and
(33:52):
here's what's in it.
So from that, I was able todetermine, you know, the plants
that were, were, were at thevarious missions.
Damian Bacich (34:02):
Ah, how interesting.
Michael Harwick (34:03):
And yeah, it's, it's amazing'cause those things
went on for a long time.
You know, even our grape stock,you know, uses original,
original mission, grape stock,and then he grafts stuff onto
it, you know, and then, and soin the Victorian period there's
a pure fusion of, of plants thatcome into California.
But before that, you know, we'restill, we're still looking at
(34:26):
mission era plants that aregrowing in and around the
various missions.
Damian Bacich (34:32):
Well sometime if you've got time, I'd love to ask
you some more about thatspecific topic because that
sounds very interesting as Well,
Michael Harwick (34:39):
Well, I put a, uh, my first book went out to
document that and I have sinceupgraded it.
And, uh, that'll probably be mynext book because we revised
edition of that book.
Damian Bacich (34:51):
Well, I'll be looking forward to that one.
Michael Harwick (34:53):
Yeah.
I only had a few missions in it,um, originally, but, uh, the new
one has got virtually all themissions in it.
Damian Bacich (35:01):
Oh wow.
Okay, Yeah.
Yeah.
well Mike, uh, thank you so muchfor this.
I will, um, I think, I hopeeverybody gets, goes out and
gets the book and, uh, we'llthis will be, you can either
watch it on YouTube or listen asa podcast, but, uh, the, um, the
(35:22):
images will certainly beavailable on the video, so, so,
yeah.
Thank you so much.
Michael Harwick (35:29):
well if anybody has a trouble getting the book,
they can actually write to medirect and I, I'll give'em a$5
discount
Damian Bacich (35:35):
Excellent.
Michael Harwick (35:36):
$35 book and, and throw the shipping in for
free if they're interested.
Damian Bacich (35:42):
Okay, so I'll put, I'll, uh, I'll put your
email on the, uh,
Michael Harwick (35:46):
Yeah, sure.
Yeah.
Damian Bacich (35:49):
Well, great.
Thank you so much, Mike.
Michael Harwick (35:51):
Well, I appreciate it and hopefully
we'll, uh, get together more,hear more from you./
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