June 10, 2025 • 40 mins
What if marketing your business felt natural, authentic, and—dare we say—enjoyable? Mills Gray is on a mission to help service providers ditch the aggressive "bro marketing" tactics and build client journeys that feel good for everyone involved.
Drawing from 17 years of business ownership and her fascinating background as a scuba instructor, Mills brings a fresh perspective to marketing high-ticket services. Her approach is refreshingly simple: find marketing strategies you actually enjoy and focus there, rather than spreading yourself thin across every platform and tactic.
"The key to all of it is finding the thing that you really enjoy doing and also getting your marketing message right," Mills explains. Too often, we market from our expert perspective, five steps ahead of where our clients actually are. The result? Our messaging falls flat because we're not addressing the problems our clients recognize they have.
Mills walks us through creating a natural client journey that respects the relationship-building process. Comparing it to dating, she reminds us that rushing to sell is like proposing on the first date—it simply doesn't work. Instead, she recommends nurturing leads through value-driven content that helps potential clients get to know you before making a purchasing decision.
When it comes to lead magnets, Mills advocates for simplicity: "Don't get too bogged down. Do two hours max on your lead magnet and then just send the damn thing." She explains that cold audiences will give you seven minutes of their attention at most, so focus on quick wins rather than elaborate challenges.
For service providers struggling with pricing, Mills offers a refreshing perspective on valuing your time and expertise appropriately. She challenges the notion that lower prices lead to more sales, explaining that perception of value plays a crucial role in client decisions.
Whether you're just starting out or looking to elevate your existing business, this conversation will help you create marketing that aligns with who you are while effectively connecting with the clients you're meant to serve.
Resources:
Mills’ website: https://www.millsgray.com/
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The Mom Balance Playbook (Freebie for Managing the Mayhem)
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Hire a VA or start your VA business here: https://camillewalker.co/
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Listen & subscribe here: APPLE SPOTIFY
Top 100 Mompreneur Podcasts: https://podcast.feedspot.com/mompreneur_podcasts/
Connect with Mills:
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Mills (00:00):
The key to all of it find the thing that you really enjoy
doing and also your marketingmessage, like I think the
messaging is the key piece foreverything how we speak to our
clients.
Camille (00:18):
So you want to make an impact.
You're thinking about startinga business, sharing your voice.
How do women do it that handlemotherhood, family and still
chase after those dreams?
We'll listen each week as wedive into the stories of women
who know this is Call Me CEO.
Welcome back everyone to CallMe CEO.
(00:40):
This is your host, camilleWalker, and here we celebrate
mothers building businesses anddoing it well, while balancing
family and children and business.
It is crazy, we all know this.
It's not easy, but there are alot of women doing it really
well and that is what I love tocelebrate here on the podcast,
and today is no exception.
We have Mills Gray, who is anincredible coach for helping you
(01:04):
to get over the BS bromarketing tactics.
She's been a business owner for16 years.
She was a scuba dive instructor, which is really cool, so you
know she's already like way cooland she's a mom of two, a doer,
an action taker.
She also talks aboutspirituality in business.
It's not all about the hustle,the grind.
(01:24):
It's about doing what speaks toyour soul.
Her podcast is called SoulLeaders, where she shares
marketing and sales tips.
So today we're going to betalking specifically about how
to create a natural clientjourney.
That feels good for those highticket sales for service
providers and how you, too, canoffer the same.
(01:44):
So, mills, thank you for beingon the show today.
Mills (01:47):
Thank you so much for having me.
I'm excited to be here, so yeah.
Camille (01:51):
Well, you're just so sweet already from the get go
being a listener of the podcast.
I appreciate that so muchbecause I feel like we already
are friends and our names arebasically the same she's Camilla
, I'm Camille, so we alreadyhave lots in common.
So tell our audience a littlebit more about you.
Mills (02:08):
Yeah, so I mean, that was a stellar intro.
It's so funny when you rememberwhat you actually wrote and
you're like, oh, this is amazing.
No, that is me First andforemost.
You know I am a mom of twoteenagers, girls which you know
is a freaking business in itselfand I have been a business
(02:32):
owner for yes, it's actually 17years now and you know it's fair
to say that there havedefinitely been ups and downs,
but I literally love, love, love, working for myself and helping
other women to really step intothat idea that they don't have
to conform, they don't have togo and do the nine to five or be
(02:55):
stuck at home or whatever thatsort of like typical journey
might look like, and so I'vemade it my mission really to to
be brave, to put my head abovethe parapet.
I always say that running abusiness requires you to have
courage, and so, yeah, it's beena really fun roller coaster,
but a fun journey of businessownership and helping other
(03:18):
people.
And I love strategy andmarketing and all of the kind of
the masculine energy do, do, do.
But I also love the feminine,the receiving.
But it's taken me a little bitof time to step away from that
and not always be in like hustlemode and just understanding
(03:38):
that there really are two sidesof the coin and it's best to try
and fit into both rather thanjust stay in one lane when it
comes to your energy.
So I've worked hard as well inthe last few years on just yeah,
really doing that kind of likegrounding and remembering why we
do it, because otherwise Ithink you can just get caught up
(03:58):
and stuck in hustle.
No one likes hustle mills, Itell you I don't anyway.
Camille (04:13):
I feel like that comes with age, too, and it comes with
a good, healthy dose of success.
I feel like when you do get toa place where you're like, oh,
my goodness, I reached the topof this mountain, top, things
are good, and you have thisminute to kind of look around
and think, gosh, I want to helpother people do this, and I also
want to get back to the rootsof who I am on the inside, which
it's really interesting beingin the online culture of women
(04:35):
building businesses, becauseit's so vast and so there's so
much potential.
There's plenty of room foreveryone.
I really genuinely feel thatway.
There's plenty of room foreveryone.
I really genuinely feel thatway.
And what's interesting is, Iwent to a creator event, because
I've been a blogger creator for13 years and I was at Universal
Studios.
They were hosting us.
(04:55):
This was just a couple of weeksago and there were a few more
than a few young moms who werewho I was 10, 12 years ago, and
I could see in them that hustle,that grind, that every minute,
looking around and thinking, oh,I need to capture that content
or I need to do this thing, oroh, and just like that constant
(05:16):
where.
Now, as a mom with teenagersand I've been in the business
for a minute I feel like I havethat, the wonderful ability to
take a step back and think, okay, where is that receiving, where
is that grace?
I can take a minute to kind ofchill out a little bit, but I
appreciate who I was as thatbrand new mom, and that hustle
(05:38):
and figuring it out in the naptimes and everything else Cause
otherwise I couldn't be where Iam today.
So I love that you say that,that there's really that hustle,
and then also the learning tochill and figuring it out that
way to reconnect.
Mills (05:51):
Definitely.
And actually what you just saidis perfect.
You know she got you to today,so you know we're grateful, but
it also doesn't mean that wehave to also carry on doing the
same thing forever.
And actually, when you are in anewer business owner, it's nice
to hear that to also carry ondoing the same thing Forever,
forever.
And actually when you are anewer business owner, it's nice
to hear that because I think alot of the time you're so
(06:11):
desperate to get to that placeand you're just like when am I
going to get there?
How am I going to get there?
Do more, do more, do more.
And actually when you hearpeople who are like, actually
you will get there and it isokay, like actually you will get
there and it is okay and it isokay to have boundaries, I think
it's really reassuring forpeople.
Camille (06:27):
There is a light at the end of the tunnel, yeah, and
where you're helping so manypeople come into this space and
create marketing funnels.
There are so many ways to dothis and I've experienced many
ways of doing this and some havebeen good and some not so good,
and I think my lesson over andover has been what you focus on
will grow.
(06:47):
It's when I try to do too manythings at the same time.
You know that shiny thing or oh, this is the new way.
But I would love to hear inyour experience, especially
where you're helping others tocreate these funnels for
marketing, what are some thingsworking right now that allow for
a natural client journey inyour experience?
Mills (07:08):
It's a good question, because I think there isn't one
answer.
I think it really.
I always advise people toreally lean into the thing that
they like to do, because I thinkwhen it comes to marketing and
selling, there are so many waysand actually all of them
probably work.
If you put time, energy andsome strategy, they will work.
(07:32):
So then it's a case of goingokay, I can't do all of them,
because if you do all of them,you're just going to do them all
a little bit scrappy and maybea little bit badly, which is the
thing that you like doing.
So I hate doing webinars.
I was taught to.
You know, have a webinar, get150 people on and then five show
up and you're like what?
I've been there, yeah, and thenyou sell at the end of it.
(07:55):
That's not my idea of what Ilike to do, but that's not to
say they don't work because theydo.
So I always think find thething that you enjoy doing first
, so you might enjoy podcasting.
I'm guessing you do, you,you're doing it, and that to me
is like a great marketing funnel.
It's like using it to youradvantage.
(08:17):
So I'd say, if you like doingblogs or podcasts, do that, but
then turn all of that contentinto your a greater marketing
funnel.
So, for example, take a apodcast episode and turn it into
five emails and five pieces ofinstagram captions or facebook
posts or linkedin posts orwhichever channel you're in, and
(08:41):
repurpose so that you'reactually making a kind of wider
use of the thing that you likedoing.
I think there's plenty of roomto do both organic and paid, but
I appreciate that paid mightcome a little bit later in your
journey where you might think Idon't want to risk doing paid
ads just in case they don't work.
(09:02):
But I think if you can get yourorganic strategy right and your
organic messaging right, thenhonestly, paid is just a hell of
a lot easier.
And then you start to see leadscoming in and you're like, okay
, this is, this is easy.
So the key to all of it findthe thing that you really enjoy
doing and also your marketingmessage.
(09:25):
Like, I think the messaging isthe key piece for everything how
we speak to our clients.
A lot of the time we thinkwe're solving a problem that
they have and we probably are,and we're experts in helping
them with that but we might befive steps ahead of where
they're at.
So we're describing it in a waythat they don't really get
(09:45):
right.
I'm going to use, like a, areally sort of extreme example.
But let's say you, you, yourclient, you're a health coach
and you know that your clientwants to lose weight, but you
know that actually, if youregulate their nervous system,
that's going to help them.
And so you start talking aboutbreath work and regulating
(10:06):
nervous systems to have ahealthier lifestyle and lose
weight.
But they're like what?
No, no, no, I just want to loseweight.
You know that the solutionmight be a little bit more than
that and that's what you'retalking to, but actually your
client, your ideal client,doesn't, so it doesn't resonate.
So your program is not selling,or your course isn't selling,
or your one-on-one isn't selling, and so I always think just
(10:26):
really being so crystal clear onthe messaging is going to then
help you with that sales journey.
So it's like, find your lane ofwhat you like to do and make
sure your marketing message isspot on.
Camille (10:40):
I love that advice because I think you're right
where we may be ahead or stepsdown the lane, where we don't
even realize that we're talkingto maybe a next level of
scenario, where that's level two, three, four, five.
So taking steps back or reiningthat information back in, what
(11:01):
is your advice for helpingpeople to find what that problem
and solution is, for giving aclear identification?
Mills (11:10):
I think if you haven't had the luxury of having clients
yet because I would always saywhat are your clients saying to
you right now?
Because I always think whateverthey're saying to you is is
really your marketing goldbecause what they're saying,
probably other people feel thesame and so it's just making
sure you're really listening tothat and using all of that
terminology and language andunderstanding of the problem in
(11:33):
your messaging.
But if you're sitting herethinking, oh, I don't actually
have any clients yet or Ihaven't got enough to ask, I
will always say find someone inyour industry who is like a
superstar, who's like acelebrity within your world.
So I'm going to, just forargument's sake, take Mel
Robbins as an example.
(11:54):
If I was a life coach or if Iwas somebody who is into
self-development, Mel Robbins issomeone that I kind of know who
she is.
She's got a huge following.
Go to her Instagram and seewhat people are commenting in
the comments, because she willhave tons of comments.
Anything that she writes aboutpeople are going to comment and
(12:16):
just really research and seewhat they're saying.
What are the problems thatthey're saying?
Now, I've used like lifecoaching as an example, because
it's like an easy one that cameto the top of my head, but this
actually works almost in everysingle industry.
Find those kind of megastars,see what they're talking about
and see what the comments are,because the comments are
probably your ideal client.
Camille (12:37):
I like that.
And then, when you speakingabout ads and this is kind of
skipping ahead a little bit, butI, what I love about ads and
this is kind of skipping ahead alittle bit, but I what I love
about ads, especially throughmeta, is that you can mimic
audiences of people that youidentify as being those mega
stars that you say.
I want to mimic this audienceof who that person would be and
I think that that's a reallyhelpful practice is to look at,
(12:58):
okay, who?
Who is that person that I wouldsay, yeah, we're, we have the
same belief system, we're in thesame, and then you can actually
use that to help you identifyad marketing as well, which I
think is really cool.
Mills (13:10):
Yes, definitely, definitely.
The funny thing with ads,though, is that I will say your
audience is like it's almost notas important with the ads as
you think, because you kind ofokay, okay, obviously, let's
just say you only serve women,you want to just be saying women
, but the messaging and theoffer that comes with it is
(13:35):
probably I would rank it abovethe audience that you pick,
because sometimes, withsomething like meta, it can be a
bit woolly and it's like okayand confusing for sure, and
confusing, definitely so againfor me, and sort of my message I
would always go back to whatare you saying?
what is the thing that you'retrying to solve?
(13:58):
What problem are you helpingthem with?
What goal are they reaching,like, what is that thing and
what's the messaging around that?
Because the right people willmeta, will teach whoever looks
at it and engages.
That's actually more importantthan maybe who you've said,
because they're like oh, youknow, camille's engaged.
Okay, we need more camilles.
And then they go off.
They do their weird thing.
I don't know what they do.
(14:18):
The magic of yeah, the magicstalking you.
Yeah, it's clever, but yeah itis really.
I think finding people who are,I'm just going to say,
celebrities I know that they'reprobably not all celebrities at
all, but finding people who arebig in your industry is going to
help you to understand thatmessaging and what people are
(14:40):
looking for.
Camille (14:42):
Okay.
So, keeping that in mind, howdo we create a natural journey
for our potential clients?
Mills (14:50):
Yeah.
So I personally think that wewant to give as much as we can
for them to get to know us, andI think sometimes we sell too
quick.
Now I am going to caveat thisthere is a big difference
between an American audience anda UK audience Like us Brits,
(15:12):
okay yeah.
I actually I'm in a mastermindwith an American.
She's brilliant and she'salways like God you Brits are,
so you know you take your time.
I think Americans are very muchand obviously I'm generalizing,
but they are able to make adecision quicker on a purchase
than a Brit.
(15:33):
Us Brits are a little bitcynical.
We're like, well, I'm going tothink about it and I'm going to
go away and I'm going to do someresearch and because I think a
lot of the time you guys mightjust go off, hey, I kind of
that's a good energy, I likethat, I'm going to go with it.
But I think sometimes we cansell too quick.
So it's almost like, if youthink about it, like dating if
(15:54):
you were to go on a, I say thisI haven't been on a date in
years because I'm happilymarried.
But a new date, right, ifyou're going on a new date and
they took you for dinner, thenthey were straight away like you
know, let's go.
You might be like that's a bitforward.
I think it's the same withbusiness.
I think they have to get toknow you a little bit.
(16:15):
So that sales journey I feelhas to involve a lot of
nurturing.
So a sort of a great salesjourney is get a good lead
magnet.
Whatever that looks like.
It could be a video, it couldbe a pdf.
Don't spend too long on it, twohours max.
Have a nice lead magnet thatflows really nicely into more of
(16:39):
you not necessarily selling,but just more of you.
And so in a email nurture, Iwould always say, hey, if you've
done a podcast, link it so thatthey can hear you.
Or if you've got a YouTube,link it so they can see you and
just take them on more bits ofyou.
Where can they discover more ofyou?
(16:59):
To then go.
I feel confident about whatthis person's offering me.
I'm interested to either have aconversation with them or buy
something from them.
So I think the nurture part isis is really crucial in that
sales Journey.
Um, in terms of how you getthat nut, get them into nurture
(17:20):
again, it's like you could domaster classes.
You could do just popping alead magnet at the end of a
podcast interview that you do,or in a Facebook group where
you're talking to somebody andyou say, hey, I've got this
great thing.
We want to make it so that it'snot too forced but it's also
offering value.
(17:40):
So the more you can offer, Ithink, the better.
I'm not one of these people whodon't like giving things away.
I think give as much away asyou can Because the chances are
is that the part when they needto work with you is the
implementation part, like theycould actually probably just
Google anything, right, anyonecould Google anything.
I could Google how to mend mycar.
(18:00):
It doesn't mean I want to, itdoesn't mean I want to go and do
that.
I'd much rather just send it toa mechanic and they can do it.
So it's like, yes, thatinformation you can give it to
them.
The implementation, the how to,the kind of more nuanced
version of getting them to thatgoal, is where they need you.
So don't be scared to givethings away.
Camille (18:20):
Yeah, that's good advice, and I think you're right
because we live in the age ofinformation where literally
there's a YouTube video oneverything.
My husband finished ourbasement off of a YouTube course
that actually someone sold andhe did it brilliantly.
He wasn't a DIY guy and hefigured it out.
But having that resource ofsomeone that you trust and
(18:42):
you've seen the journey of whatthey've done and you want to
mimic, I would say that would bemy number one advice is don't
take advice from someone unlessyou see their lifestyle and the
way they've built their businessand you're like Ooh, I want
that too, because otherwise,what are you?
What are you trying to achieve?
You know, like definitelycoming up with the end in mind,
wouldn't you agree?
(19:05):
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(19:28):
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(19:52):
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We can build your dreambusiness together.
Mills (20:06):
A hundred percent can build your dream business
together 100%.
And actually, what's reallyinteresting is, I think it's
okay to find people who dothings better than you.
It doesn't matter what theirage is.
Yeah, like, I've worked.
I'm 47, nearly 48.
You don't look it, thanks.
Yeah, oh, I'll take that Thanks.
But I've worked with someamazing mentors, business
(20:29):
mentors who were like in theirlate twenties and I always
giggle to myself but I'm like,but they know that they've got a
skill, they've got a skill andso don't be afraid to get help
in that, whether, whatever thatlooks like, it could be that you
want to have a podcast manager,it could be that you want a
copywriter I'm I'm all aboutfinding other people to do the
(20:49):
things that I'm not so good at,so that I can get on and do the
things that I am good at andthat was always yeah, that was
always.
My aim was like I don't want tobe the person who does
everything.
I want to be able to just staydoing the things I love.
Yeah, um, and the right peopleI think the right people will
pay for your service and thewrong people won't.
And you don't want those.
Camille (21:10):
Yeah, and not to make it personal, because if you get
wrapped up in that, that canbring you down and stall you and
you end up stalling yourselfway more than just doing the
thing and saying, oh well, thatwasn't a good fit, and you move
forward A hundred percent, Ahundred percent, that's good
advice.
Mills (21:26):
It's like don't don't take it personally yeah.
Camille (21:29):
I would love to hear some examples of I guess what's
the word I'm looking for Like Iwas going to say like a victory
story, but what I mean isexamples of people that you've
helped generate a lead magnetthrough organic lead generation.
That's worked well for you.
Mills (21:49):
Yes, totally For them.
Camille (21:50):
So I would love to hear some examples.
Mills (21:53):
So actually, the first one that comes to my mind is I
have a client.
She is a Pilates instructor andshe has a membership and she's
brilliant on Instagram, like shedoes most of her sales through
Instagram.
And I kept saying Amy, you areleaving money on the table.
You need to.
You need to grow your emaillist and find people who aren't
(22:13):
just seeing you on Instagrambecause, also, you've got to.
You don't want to rely on thealgorithm.
And she said I can't make alead magnet, I don't know what
to do.
So we broke it down and I waslike you have got so many videos
, because that is what you do.
You have a membership with tonsand tons and tons of videos.
I was like get a video andyou're going to offer that as a
(22:34):
taster.
And so we created this funnel,which was the taster, and then
it led to a seven week courseand I'm all about trying to do
the tech first.
This is how I work is like I'mgoing about trying to do the
tech first.
It's just how I work.
It's like I'm going to try it.
And I think she just was sooverwhelmed with like the whole.
She was looking at step one toa hundred and going, oh, I can't
(22:59):
do this, whereas I said let'sjust start with step one, two
and three and then we'll move onto step four, five, six.
And so we broke down like whatdid her email sequence look like
?
Was she going to sell?
What did that look like?
And within two days and we didwork quite closely together
doing it within two days she hadsomething set up.
She didn't need to rerecordanything, she just had it, and
(23:20):
literally within 24 hours she'dmade the equivalent of about
$800.
And she was like, oh my God,why didn't I do this, like a
year ago?
I was like, right, so it's likeI would say, like send the damn
email or try the thing.
Yeah, it's like, if you don't,you're still just staying where
you are, and we, we don't wantto stay where we are, so, so
(23:41):
that's a good example of a leadmagnet that was just waiting to
go.
It was just waiting to be sold.
Camille (23:47):
That is so great, and I'd love to know as well what is
for pricing, because that's aquestion I get a lot when I
coach people through.
Something like this is they'relike oh, what do I start with
charging?
I don't know what to charge orif they're used to giving it for
free, or they're used toworking by the hour at an hourly
rate.
What's?
Your advice with thosegenerally?
Do you have a rule of thumb atan?
Mills (24:07):
hourly rate.
What's your advice with thosegenerally?
Do you have a rule of thumb?
I don't know if I have a ruleof thumb, but something that I
do to help with pricing is usingsomething like Toggle.
I don't know if you're familiarwith Toggle.
It's an app that basically istelling you exactly what you're
doing, the minutes, seconds thatyou're spending on things.
Just toggle your day and seehow much time you're spending on
(24:33):
certain things to be likeactually do you know what?
I don't need to charge myselfout at $10 an hour because
that's what it's coming out atwith all the work that's going
in.
So I'm not saying that youtranslate that to your clients,
but it's like for your ownawareness.
Just actually work out how muchtime you're spending on things
to feel like is that worth it?
Am I underselling?
(24:56):
Most people will undersellrather than oversell.
I think, when it comes toentrepreneurs, we tend to go,
okay, well, I'll just make thatcheaper.
Well, I'll just make thatcheaper.
But actually making thingscheaper does not mean it will
sell, because I would say youhave to sell a freebie.
You think, oh, it's free,everyone's gonna download my
freebie.
But they don't right, yeah, a,because we don't want them to
(25:18):
because we don't want to serveeveryone.
But b even your idealist, idealclient still isn't downloading
your freebie and you're likeit's free, why are you not
taking it?
So when I think of pricing, Ialso think of if you were to buy
.
Okay, let's just take it to aneveryday thing.
(25:39):
If you go to a grocery storeand there are blueberries for
sale and one of them I'm justusing like British currency and
turning it into dollars, so oneof them is like $3.50 and one's
$1.50.
And you look at them and you'relike I don't know, they kind of
(26:01):
look the same, but the $1.50 isprobably going to go out first.
It's going to go off out ofdate.
I'll go with the $3.50 becausethey look bigger and juicier.
They're probably the same thing.
It's your perception of it.
So it's like if we always arejust like, hey, I'm just super
cheap and I'm super by the hour,you're going to lose people who
are like, oh, I'll just go forthe, for the other version,
(26:22):
because it's probably going tobe better value.
So I think that has to come intoit as well.
That doesn't mean we just allcharge really expensive, but
it's just a few things toconsider, to like, put into the
mix, the cake mix, what goes in?
I'd say all of your training.
How much have you spent gettingto where you are today?
That has to be counted andfactored in how much you
(26:44):
actually spending doing thethings that you are doing to get
you there, so again usingtoggle.
And then, what kind of idleclient do you want?
Do you want clients who arelike, ready to pay, happy to pay
, or do you want clients whowant to haggle?
I know which ones I want.
Camille (26:59):
Oh, I know, I know.
Okay, this is another timingquestion With your emails.
You referenced that as havingyou know your freebie and then
your emails.
How many long?
How many emails in general?
I know these are very.
These can all be manipulateddifferent ways depending on the
scenario.
But in your idealgeneralization, how many emails
(27:22):
or how long should we nurturesomeone before we try to sell a
product?
Mills (27:28):
long should we nurture someone before we try to sell a
product?
Yeah, that's, it's great toanswer that, because I think
that you can collapse timewithout needing to even sell.
So you can just be like here'sme first email, here's your
thing, here's your freebie.
Second email hey, here's,here's some more exposure to me.
I'm helping this person withthat on this podcast or this
YouTube.
Or here's an article I wrote,again collapsing time, so that
(27:50):
they start to binge you,hopefully, binge watch or binge
read.
I always think five emails is anice flow.
I tend to do them every day ifit's from a lead magnet, and I
tend to set to drip feed inabout three or four, but that's
always with a PS.
Hey, ps, if you're ready,there's something I've got for
you.
And then the last email.
(28:11):
I'm usually driving themsomewhere.
So either to have aconversation with me like I
really enjoy, sell by chat,which is where I get them to
start a conversation with me,and that's usually with a call
to action Like hey, if you wantresults, like Julie, then DM me
the word yeah, strategy.
And then hopefully they DM meand then I can just be chatting
(28:32):
hey, where are you in yourbusiness?
Tell me a little bit more aboutyou and that's how I like to
get my higher ticket clients.
If it's for a service orproduct that's digital or
something that's a little bit,may not require a conversation.
I would drip feed by about emailfour and then in email five
I'll focus just on that solutionfor them.
(28:52):
So yeah, about five, but again,if you do more, you do more and
if you do less, you do less.
Just the shorter the time orthe shorter they have of you,
some people may need longer, aslong as you're then taking them
into some kind of I always callit like a master contact list
(29:13):
where they finish the sequence,they're then going into
somewhere and you're notforgetting about them.
They're getting regular emailsand I would say once to twice a
week is perfectly acceptable.
I think anything more I wouldprobably say is a lot.
But again, there's a differencebetween Brits and Americans
(29:34):
with this.
I don't know how many emails doyou usually if you, if you sign
up to something I think I'vehad somewhere, I've got like
five a day and I'm like whoa.
Camille (29:44):
Oh, yeah, I mean, I think that for sure, if
someone's selling something hardand it's like morning, noon,
night and you're like leave mealone, leave me alone.
Yeah, I think that that is toomuch, unless there is like one
ticket thing that you're youknow it happens once a year Like
that's fine, absolutely, andmaybe it's closing, sure, yeah,
yeah.
Otherwise I'm like once a weekis great.
(30:05):
Yeah, yeah.
Mills (30:06):
Yeah, it's a little bit like.
It's like that dating analogyLike you don't want to be, you
know, jump into bed with me thatquickly.
Camille (30:13):
So yeah, I'll just get to know you first, give me you
know I would suggest foreveryone listening to, and it's
interesting because I havedifferent freebies on different
websites where I have likediscover your why, where it's
like finding your purpose andconnecting with would you want
to start a business.
And then I have another that isthe mom balance playbook, where
(30:33):
it's, you know, figuring outways to find better balance and
in your life.
So I'm curious, what is yourfreebie?
Cause I'm sure you havesomething for everyone listening
.
And then everyone listening payattention to mills emails,
because she'll show you how todo it.
That's another thing to do iswatch for the people that are
(30:54):
doing it well, because that's acase study right there in and of
itself is pay attention to thetiming you like or the amount
that you really connects withyou and feels organic and
natural.
Mills (31:06):
A hundred percent like that awareness piece.
I think is so good to just beaware of what you like and model
yourself on that, versus whatsomeone's told you to do.
I don't like being told.
I'm always like that.
I'm anti that.
So I have a lot of lead magnetsthat I.
(31:26):
I play around with things, soit kind of depends what I'm
launching at the time as to whatI might push.
I will say one thing about leadmagnets if they are a cold, or
make sure that they are reallyfor a cold audience, a lot of
the time business owners makethe mistake of making a lead
magnet with the idea thatsomeone's willing to spend seven
(31:50):
days doing a journalingexercise.
They won't right, they don'tknow you, they're not going to
give you seven days.
They'll give you seven minutesif you're lucky.
Right, that's so, yeah, so it'salways like for a cold audience
.
It almost just needs to bequick and easy and then you
nurture um, if it's for a warmeraudience, yeah, you might get
(32:11):
seven days from them, and so Ialways think challenges are a
little bit challenging for acold audience.
Maybe three days is fine, butfive you might find people
aren't staying, and so I havelots of different lead magnets I
have, and it depends as well onwhich part of my audience I'm
trying to sell to.
So I tend to categorize myaudience and people they
(32:35):
generally know.
I don't make it super clearthat it's like level one, two,
three, but if we're just forargument's sake going to
categorize it like that, levelone might be at a stage in
business where they are happy tocome to like a workshop or an
in-person event or a paid, asmall low ticket paid thing, and
so I might have a lead magnetlike how to get the best hooks
(32:59):
and captions for someone whomight be at that stage in their
business.
For my higher ticket coaching,I might talk about um, looking
for higher cash months and youknow 10k months, which is more
of a hook for that type ofclient, and so yeah it's.
I have a few different ones mygeneral Instagram one, because I
(33:21):
feel like that kind of coverseverybody.
I have two on there.
I have a hooks one, so it's allabout captions and hooks, and I
have a higher caliber clientone, so it's like how to attract
higher caliber clients and it'san audit.
So they're both quite easy andquick and don't require a huge
amount of commitment from thecold audience and then the
(33:42):
nurture sequence again is bothdifferent for both, because I'm
really it depends where I wantto take them.
So when I look at a lead magnetI will always say start at the
end result where you want themto buy.
What is it, what is that?
And then work backwards andhave this really beautiful
(34:03):
through line that matches yourend result with the lead magnet.
So if I was going to docaptions and hooks as a lead
magnet, there's no point me thendoing something on podcasting
as the end goal, because they'dbe like what?
That doesn't make sense to me.
So start with the service thatyou were trying to sell and kind
(34:26):
of reverse engineer it.
Camille (34:28):
I love it.
That makes all the sense to me.
Yeah, yeah, I love that so muchand I think it's interesting to
to create different journeysfor for different things that
you're trying to offer, becauseit is it is different, and
recognizing that is reallyimportant.
Mills (34:43):
Yeah, yeah, and don't get too bogged down.
You know it's like do two hoursmax on your lead magnet and
then just send the damn thingLike I'm always like just get it
out, you can change it.
Camille (34:54):
So, looking back, if there was someone listening
right now who is very beginningor maybe they're not, maybe
they're in the middle and theywant to come up with something
new what advice would you havefor them to just get the thing
out?
Mills (35:07):
Yeah, again, it's goes back to that listening or
understanding where your clientis at right now and what they
think they need.
So, if it's a diet, talk abouthere's five things to eliminate
to lose weight, versus.
I'm going to give you abreathwork exercise that's going
to help you regulate yournervous system.
They won't go for that, theyjust want to lose weight.
(35:27):
So go with that kind of almostlike market research, go to and
solve the problem that they'rehaving right now and start there
.
If, whether you do like a videoor a PDF or a checklist, again,
make it quick, easy to consume,not a huge amount of commitment
(35:48):
from them.
They don't need to spend hoursdoing it because you've lost
them and and you know what, askchat gpt for some brainstorming
ideas.
Chat gpt is good enough.
Yeah, I use something calledclaude, which is I've heard of.
I've used claude, yeah.
(36:08):
Yeah, claude is really.
I feel claude is very good forcreatives, so I like using
Claude to just get some ideas.
So I might say hey, claude, Ifeel like I'm having an affair
with Claude.
Hey, claude, help me out here.
This is, you know, my clienthas this problem.
I'm selling this service.
(36:29):
Help me with five, five ideasfor a lead magnet and see what
he comes up with.
Camille (36:36):
Oh, I think it saves so much time.
I love it so much.
Well, that's amazing.
Well, I have had such awonderful chat with you.
I've loved it so much.
There's two questions that Iask every guest.
The first is what are youreading, watching or listening
to?
And the second is what's amotherhood moment you'd like to
share?
Mills (36:54):
Oh, my goodness, Well, I have an unhealthy obsession with
true crime.
Oh, yes, I literally I feellike in a past life I was a
detective, so I'm listening to.
At the moment I'm listening, Ijust listen to podcasts.
That's my main thing.
I read when I'm on holiday andI'm not on holiday yet, so at
the moment I'm listening, I justlisten to podcasts.
That's my main thing.
I read when I'm on holiday andI'm not on holiday yet.
(37:14):
So at the moment I'm listeningto something called Up and
Vanished, which is an Americanpodcast, familiar with it.
Yeah, so that's what I'mlistening to.
Camille (37:24):
And then a motherhood moment that repeat a motherhood
moment, any motherhood moment,any motherhood moment you'd want
to share.
Mills (37:32):
oh, my goodness, could be fun, it could be heartfelt, it
could be a learning experience,anything well, I am married to a
um, somebody who does iron man,which is like long distance
triathlon, so he's always likedo, do, do, do, do.
And we went on a family tripwhen the kids were really quite
(37:54):
young to South Africa and he waslike right, we're going to
climb Table Mountain.
And I was like this is going tobe a challenge.
I think they were like six andseven, but my youngest was just
like so gung ho, and anyway shedid it and we, you, you know it
was great.
But a couple of days ago wewatched the blog of the vlog
(38:17):
because my husband, I filmed thewhole thing and just the
funniest thing was that my 16who's now 16?
She was just like oh, my god,all I'm talking about is how you
haven't done a French plat inmy hair.
You weren't taking in anything,you were just like bitching
about the fact that you didn'thave a french plant.
She was like I missed the whole, like the whole moment of
(38:39):
climbing table mountain.
I was like that's life, honey.
That is like yeah, but no,they've.
They've always been like superadventurous and I'm always so
proud that they just go for itbecause there's no way they
couldn't, not because of myhusband being so like he's like
a tiger mom, but a dad I don'tknow what the expression is like
.
Do you use the expression tigermom?
(39:02):
uh, mama bear is what we saymore often yeah, okay, yeah,
tiger mom is more, is more likeum a kind of pushy, a pushy mom,
like the soccer mom, maybe.
Camille (39:15):
Oh, okay.
Mills (39:16):
Yeah, she's like come on, you can do it, you can do it.
Well, my husband is like that.
So they've always just grown upbeing like super adventurous
and just saying yes toeverything, and I'm always like
that is going to help you forthe rest of your life.
Absolutely, you're going to besorted, even if my eldest still
is a diva, and likes her hair tobe perfect.
Camille (39:35):
Hey, there are those core things that stick with us.
That's awesome, exactly,exactly.
Mills (39:40):
Well, this has been so good.
Camille (39:42):
I would love for you to share with the audience where
we can connect with you more,and I'll share the links below
as well.
Mills (39:47):
Yeah, thank you.
No, so, um, I have a weeklypodcast which is called soul
leaders.
Uh, so, yeah, please, that'sweekly marketing and sales tips.
And I hang out in instagrammainly.
That's like my place to be.
So I'm mills, underscore gray.
Just come and say hi, I'd loveto, I'd love to chat.
I'm, I'm, I love it, I love achat, I love a voice note.
(40:07):
So, yeah, connect with me onInstagram.
That would be amazing, and Iwill send you a link to a
freebie.
Then you've got one, okay we'lldo it.
Camille (40:16):
Yeah, thank you, thank you.
Thank you.
This has been so wonderful andI'm sure we will stay in contact
and I look forward to that.
Thank you so much.
Thank you so much for spendingyour time with me.
If you found this episodeinspiring or helpful, please let
me know in a comment.
In a five-star review, youcould have the chance of being a
(40:37):
featured review on an upcomingepisode.
Continue the conversation onInstagram at callmeceopodcast,
and remember you are the boss.
The key to all of it find the thing that you really enjoy
doing and also your marketingmessage, like I think the
messaging is the key piece foreverything how we speak to our
clients.
Camille (00:18):
So you want to make an impact.
You're thinking about startinga business, sharing your voice.
How do women do it that handlemotherhood, family and still
chase after those dreams?
We'll listen each week as wedive into the stories of women
who know this is Call Me CEO.
Welcome back everyone to CallMe CEO.
(00:40):
This is your host, camilleWalker, and here we celebrate
mothers building businesses anddoing it well, while balancing
family and children and business.
It is crazy, we all know this.
It's not easy, but there are alot of women doing it really
well and that is what I love tocelebrate here on the podcast,
and today is no exception.
We have Mills Gray, who is anincredible coach for helping you
(01:04):
to get over the BS bromarketing tactics.
She's been a business owner for16 years.
She was a scuba dive instructor, which is really cool, so you
know she's already like way cooland she's a mom of two, a doer,
an action taker.
She also talks aboutspirituality in business.
It's not all about the hustle,the grind.
(01:24):
It's about doing what speaks toyour soul.
Her podcast is called SoulLeaders, where she shares
marketing and sales tips.
So today we're going to betalking specifically about how
to create a natural clientjourney.
That feels good for those highticket sales for service
providers and how you, too, canoffer the same.
(01:44):
So, mills, thank you for beingon the show today.
Mills (01:47):
Thank you so much for having me.
I'm excited to be here, so yeah.
Camille (01:51):
Well, you're just so sweet already from the get go
being a listener of the podcast.
I appreciate that so muchbecause I feel like we already
are friends and our names arebasically the same she's Camilla
, I'm Camille, so we alreadyhave lots in common.
So tell our audience a littlebit more about you.
Mills (02:08):
Yeah, so I mean, that was a stellar intro.
It's so funny when you rememberwhat you actually wrote and
you're like, oh, this is amazing.
No, that is me First andforemost.
You know I am a mom of twoteenagers, girls which you know
is a freaking business in itselfand I have been a business
(02:32):
owner for yes, it's actually 17years now and you know it's fair
to say that there havedefinitely been ups and downs,
but I literally love, love, love, working for myself and helping
other women to really step intothat idea that they don't have
to conform, they don't have togo and do the nine to five or be
(02:55):
stuck at home or whatever thatsort of like typical journey
might look like, and so I'vemade it my mission really to to
be brave, to put my head abovethe parapet.
I always say that running abusiness requires you to have
courage, and so, yeah, it's beena really fun roller coaster,
but a fun journey of businessownership and helping other
(03:18):
people.
And I love strategy andmarketing and all of the kind of
the masculine energy do, do, do.
But I also love the feminine,the receiving.
But it's taken me a little bitof time to step away from that
and not always be in like hustlemode and just understanding
(03:38):
that there really are two sidesof the coin and it's best to try
and fit into both rather thanjust stay in one lane when it
comes to your energy.
So I've worked hard as well inthe last few years on just yeah,
really doing that kind of likegrounding and remembering why we
do it, because otherwise Ithink you can just get caught up
(03:58):
and stuck in hustle.
No one likes hustle mills, Itell you I don't anyway.
Camille (04:13):
I feel like that comes with age, too, and it comes with
a good, healthy dose of success.
I feel like when you do get toa place where you're like, oh,
my goodness, I reached the topof this mountain, top, things
are good, and you have thisminute to kind of look around
and think, gosh, I want to helpother people do this, and I also
want to get back to the rootsof who I am on the inside, which
it's really interesting beingin the online culture of women
(04:35):
building businesses, becauseit's so vast and so there's so
much potential.
There's plenty of room foreveryone.
I really genuinely feel thatway.
There's plenty of room foreveryone.
I really genuinely feel thatway.
And what's interesting is, Iwent to a creator event, because
I've been a blogger creator for13 years and I was at Universal
Studios.
They were hosting us.
(04:55):
This was just a couple of weeksago and there were a few more
than a few young moms who werewho I was 10, 12 years ago, and
I could see in them that hustle,that grind, that every minute,
looking around and thinking, oh,I need to capture that content
or I need to do this thing, oroh, and just like that constant
(05:16):
where.
Now, as a mom with teenagersand I've been in the business
for a minute I feel like I havethat, the wonderful ability to
take a step back and think, okay, where is that receiving, where
is that grace?
I can take a minute to kind ofchill out a little bit, but I
appreciate who I was as thatbrand new mom, and that hustle
(05:38):
and figuring it out in the naptimes and everything else Cause
otherwise I couldn't be where Iam today.
So I love that you say that,that there's really that hustle,
and then also the learning tochill and figuring it out that
way to reconnect.
Mills (05:51):
Definitely.
And actually what you just saidis perfect.
You know she got you to today,so you know we're grateful, but
it also doesn't mean that wehave to also carry on doing the
same thing forever.
And actually, when you are in anewer business owner, it's nice
to hear that to also carry ondoing the same thing Forever,
forever.
And actually when you are anewer business owner, it's nice
to hear that because I think alot of the time you're so
(06:11):
desperate to get to that placeand you're just like when am I
going to get there?
How am I going to get there?
Do more, do more, do more.
And actually when you hearpeople who are like, actually
you will get there and it isokay, like actually you will get
there and it is okay and it isokay to have boundaries, I think
it's really reassuring forpeople.
Camille (06:27):
There is a light at the end of the tunnel, yeah, and
where you're helping so manypeople come into this space and
create marketing funnels.
There are so many ways to dothis and I've experienced many
ways of doing this and some havebeen good and some not so good,
and I think my lesson over andover has been what you focus on
will grow.
(06:47):
It's when I try to do too manythings at the same time.
You know that shiny thing or oh, this is the new way.
But I would love to hear inyour experience, especially
where you're helping others tocreate these funnels for
marketing, what are some thingsworking right now that allow for
a natural client journey inyour experience?
Mills (07:08):
It's a good question, because I think there isn't one
answer.
I think it really.
I always advise people toreally lean into the thing that
they like to do, because I thinkwhen it comes to marketing and
selling, there are so many waysand actually all of them
probably work.
If you put time, energy andsome strategy, they will work.
(07:32):
So then it's a case of goingokay, I can't do all of them,
because if you do all of them,you're just going to do them all
a little bit scrappy and maybea little bit badly, which is the
thing that you like doing.
So I hate doing webinars.
I was taught to.
You know, have a webinar, get150 people on and then five show
up and you're like what?
I've been there, yeah, and thenyou sell at the end of it.
(07:55):
That's not my idea of what Ilike to do, but that's not to
say they don't work because theydo.
So I always think find thething that you enjoy doing first
, so you might enjoy podcasting.
I'm guessing you do, you,you're doing it, and that to me
is like a great marketing funnel.
It's like using it to youradvantage.
(08:17):
So I'd say, if you like doingblogs or podcasts, do that, but
then turn all of that contentinto your a greater marketing
funnel.
So, for example, take a apodcast episode and turn it into
five emails and five pieces ofinstagram captions or facebook
posts or linkedin posts orwhichever channel you're in, and
(08:41):
repurpose so that you'reactually making a kind of wider
use of the thing that you likedoing.
I think there's plenty of roomto do both organic and paid, but
I appreciate that paid mightcome a little bit later in your
journey where you might think Idon't want to risk doing paid
ads just in case they don't work.
(09:02):
But I think if you can get yourorganic strategy right and your
organic messaging right, thenhonestly, paid is just a hell of
a lot easier.
And then you start to see leadscoming in and you're like, okay
, this is, this is easy.
So the key to all of it findthe thing that you really enjoy
doing and also your marketingmessage.
(09:25):
Like, I think the messaging isthe key piece for everything how
we speak to our clients.
A lot of the time we thinkwe're solving a problem that
they have and we probably are,and we're experts in helping
them with that but we might befive steps ahead of where
they're at.
So we're describing it in a waythat they don't really get
(09:45):
right.
I'm going to use, like a, areally sort of extreme example.
But let's say you, you, yourclient, you're a health coach
and you know that your clientwants to lose weight, but you
know that actually, if youregulate their nervous system,
that's going to help them.
And so you start talking aboutbreath work and regulating
(10:06):
nervous systems to have ahealthier lifestyle and lose
weight.
But they're like what?
No, no, no, I just want to loseweight.
You know that the solutionmight be a little bit more than
that and that's what you'retalking to, but actually your
client, your ideal client,doesn't, so it doesn't resonate.
So your program is not selling,or your course isn't selling,
or your one-on-one isn't selling, and so I always think just
(10:26):
really being so crystal clear onthe messaging is going to then
help you with that sales journey.
So it's like, find your lane ofwhat you like to do and make
sure your marketing message isspot on.
Camille (10:40):
I love that advice because I think you're right
where we may be ahead or stepsdown the lane, where we don't
even realize that we're talkingto maybe a next level of
scenario, where that's level two, three, four, five.
So taking steps back or reiningthat information back in, what
(11:01):
is your advice for helpingpeople to find what that problem
and solution is, for giving aclear identification?
Mills (11:10):
I think if you haven't had the luxury of having clients
yet because I would always saywhat are your clients saying to
you right now?
Because I always think whateverthey're saying to you is is
really your marketing goldbecause what they're saying,
probably other people feel thesame and so it's just making
sure you're really listening tothat and using all of that
terminology and language andunderstanding of the problem in
(11:33):
your messaging.
But if you're sitting herethinking, oh, I don't actually
have any clients yet or Ihaven't got enough to ask, I
will always say find someone inyour industry who is like a
superstar, who's like acelebrity within your world.
So I'm going to, just forargument's sake, take Mel
Robbins as an example.
(11:54):
If I was a life coach or if Iwas somebody who is into
self-development, Mel Robbins issomeone that I kind of know who
she is.
She's got a huge following.
Go to her Instagram and seewhat people are commenting in
the comments, because she willhave tons of comments.
Anything that she writes aboutpeople are going to comment and
(12:16):
just really research and seewhat they're saying.
What are the problems thatthey're saying?
Now, I've used like lifecoaching as an example, because
it's like an easy one that cameto the top of my head, but this
actually works almost in everysingle industry.
Find those kind of megastars,see what they're talking about
and see what the comments are,because the comments are
probably your ideal client.
Camille (12:37):
I like that.
And then, when you speakingabout ads and this is kind of
skipping ahead a little bit, butI, what I love about ads and
this is kind of skipping ahead alittle bit, but I what I love
about ads, especially throughmeta, is that you can mimic
audiences of people that youidentify as being those mega
stars that you say.
I want to mimic this audienceof who that person would be and
I think that that's a reallyhelpful practice is to look at,
(12:58):
okay, who?
Who is that person that I wouldsay, yeah, we're, we have the
same belief system, we're in thesame, and then you can actually
use that to help you identifyad marketing as well, which I
think is really cool.
Mills (13:10):
Yes, definitely, definitely.
The funny thing with ads,though, is that I will say your
audience is like it's almost notas important with the ads as
you think, because you kind ofokay, okay, obviously, let's
just say you only serve women,you want to just be saying women
, but the messaging and theoffer that comes with it is
(13:35):
probably I would rank it abovethe audience that you pick,
because sometimes, withsomething like meta, it can be a
bit woolly and it's like okayand confusing for sure, and
confusing, definitely so againfor me, and sort of my message I
would always go back to whatare you saying?
what is the thing that you'retrying to solve?
(13:58):
What problem are you helpingthem with?
What goal are they reaching,like, what is that thing and
what's the messaging around that?
Because the right people willmeta, will teach whoever looks
at it and engages.
That's actually more importantthan maybe who you've said,
because they're like oh, youknow, camille's engaged.
Okay, we need more camilles.
And then they go off.
They do their weird thing.
I don't know what they do.
(14:18):
The magic of yeah, the magicstalking you.
Yeah, it's clever, but yeah itis really.
I think finding people who are,I'm just going to say,
celebrities I know that they'reprobably not all celebrities at
all, but finding people who arebig in your industry is going to
help you to understand thatmessaging and what people are
(14:40):
looking for.
Camille (14:42):
Okay.
So, keeping that in mind, howdo we create a natural journey
for our potential clients?
Mills (14:50):
Yeah.
So I personally think that wewant to give as much as we can
for them to get to know us, andI think sometimes we sell too
quick.
Now I am going to caveat thisthere is a big difference
between an American audience anda UK audience Like us Brits,
(15:12):
okay yeah.
I actually I'm in a mastermindwith an American.
She's brilliant and she'salways like God you Brits are,
so you know you take your time.
I think Americans are very muchand obviously I'm generalizing,
but they are able to make adecision quicker on a purchase
than a Brit.
(15:33):
Us Brits are a little bitcynical.
We're like, well, I'm going tothink about it and I'm going to
go away and I'm going to do someresearch and because I think a
lot of the time you guys mightjust go off, hey, I kind of
that's a good energy, I likethat, I'm going to go with it.
But I think sometimes we cansell too quick.
So it's almost like, if youthink about it, like dating if
(15:54):
you were to go on a, I say thisI haven't been on a date in
years because I'm happilymarried.
But a new date, right, ifyou're going on a new date and
they took you for dinner, thenthey were straight away like you
know, let's go.
You might be like that's a bitforward.
I think it's the same withbusiness.
I think they have to get toknow you a little bit.
(16:15):
So that sales journey I feelhas to involve a lot of
nurturing.
So a sort of a great salesjourney is get a good lead
magnet.
Whatever that looks like.
It could be a video, it couldbe a pdf.
Don't spend too long on it, twohours max.
Have a nice lead magnet thatflows really nicely into more of
(16:39):
you not necessarily selling,but just more of you.
And so in a email nurture, Iwould always say, hey, if you've
done a podcast, link it so thatthey can hear you.
Or if you've got a YouTube,link it so they can see you and
just take them on more bits ofyou.
Where can they discover more ofyou?
(16:59):
To then go.
I feel confident about whatthis person's offering me.
I'm interested to either have aconversation with them or buy
something from them.
So I think the nurture part isis is really crucial in that
sales Journey.
Um, in terms of how you getthat nut, get them into nurture
(17:20):
again, it's like you could domaster classes.
You could do just popping alead magnet at the end of a
podcast interview that you do,or in a Facebook group where
you're talking to somebody andyou say, hey, I've got this
great thing.
We want to make it so that it'snot too forced but it's also
offering value.
(17:40):
So the more you can offer, Ithink, the better.
I'm not one of these people whodon't like giving things away.
I think give as much away asyou can Because the chances are
is that the part when they needto work with you is the
implementation part, like theycould actually probably just
Google anything, right, anyonecould Google anything.
I could Google how to mend mycar.
(18:00):
It doesn't mean I want to, itdoesn't mean I want to go and do
that.
I'd much rather just send it toa mechanic and they can do it.
So it's like, yes, thatinformation you can give it to
them.
The implementation, the how to,the kind of more nuanced
version of getting them to thatgoal, is where they need you.
So don't be scared to givethings away.
Camille (18:20):
Yeah, that's good advice, and I think you're right
because we live in the age ofinformation where literally
there's a YouTube video oneverything.
My husband finished ourbasement off of a YouTube course
that actually someone sold andhe did it brilliantly.
He wasn't a DIY guy and hefigured it out.
But having that resource ofsomeone that you trust and
(18:42):
you've seen the journey of whatthey've done and you want to
mimic, I would say that would bemy number one advice is don't
take advice from someone unlessyou see their lifestyle and the
way they've built their businessand you're like Ooh, I want
that too, because otherwise,what are you?
What are you trying to achieve?
You know, like definitelycoming up with the end in mind,
wouldn't you agree?
(19:05):
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Mills (20:06):
A hundred percent can build your dream business
together 100%.
And actually, what's reallyinteresting is, I think it's
okay to find people who dothings better than you.
It doesn't matter what theirage is.
Yeah, like, I've worked.
I'm 47, nearly 48.
You don't look it, thanks.
Yeah, oh, I'll take that Thanks.
But I've worked with someamazing mentors, business
(20:29):
mentors who were like in theirlate twenties and I always
giggle to myself but I'm like,but they know that they've got a
skill, they've got a skill andso don't be afraid to get help
in that, whether, whatever thatlooks like, it could be that you
want to have a podcast manager,it could be that you want a
copywriter I'm I'm all aboutfinding other people to do the
(20:49):
things that I'm not so good at,so that I can get on and do the
things that I am good at andthat was always yeah, that was
always.
My aim was like I don't want tobe the person who does
everything.
I want to be able to just staydoing the things I love.
Yeah, um, and the right peopleI think the right people will
pay for your service and thewrong people won't.
And you don't want those.
Camille (21:10):
Yeah, and not to make it personal, because if you get
wrapped up in that, that canbring you down and stall you and
you end up stalling yourselfway more than just doing the
thing and saying, oh well, thatwasn't a good fit, and you move
forward A hundred percent, Ahundred percent, that's good
advice.
Mills (21:26):
It's like don't don't take it personally yeah.
Camille (21:29):
I would love to hear some examples of I guess what's
the word I'm looking for Like Iwas going to say like a victory
story, but what I mean isexamples of people that you've
helped generate a lead magnetthrough organic lead generation.
That's worked well for you.
Mills (21:49):
Yes, totally For them.
Camille (21:50):
So I would love to hear some examples.
Mills (21:53):
So actually, the first one that comes to my mind is I
have a client.
She is a Pilates instructor andshe has a membership and she's
brilliant on Instagram, like shedoes most of her sales through
Instagram.
And I kept saying Amy, you areleaving money on the table.
You need to.
You need to grow your emaillist and find people who aren't
(22:13):
just seeing you on Instagrambecause, also, you've got to.
You don't want to rely on thealgorithm.
And she said I can't make alead magnet, I don't know what
to do.
So we broke it down and I waslike you have got so many videos
, because that is what you do.
You have a membership with tonsand tons and tons of videos.
I was like get a video andyou're going to offer that as a
(22:34):
taster.
And so we created this funnel,which was the taster, and then
it led to a seven week courseand I'm all about trying to do
the tech first.
This is how I work is like I'mgoing about trying to do the
tech first.
It's just how I work.
It's like I'm going to try it.
And I think she just was sooverwhelmed with like the whole.
She was looking at step one toa hundred and going, oh, I can't
(22:59):
do this, whereas I said let'sjust start with step one, two
and three and then we'll move onto step four, five, six.
And so we broke down like whatdid her email sequence look like
?
Was she going to sell?
What did that look like?
And within two days and we didwork quite closely together
doing it within two days she hadsomething set up.
She didn't need to rerecordanything, she just had it, and
(23:20):
literally within 24 hours she'dmade the equivalent of about
$800.
And she was like, oh my God,why didn't I do this, like a
year ago?
I was like, right, so it's likeI would say, like send the damn
email or try the thing.
Yeah, it's like, if you don't,you're still just staying where
you are, and we, we don't wantto stay where we are, so, so
(23:41):
that's a good example of a leadmagnet that was just waiting to
go.
It was just waiting to be sold.
Camille (23:47):
That is so great, and I'd love to know as well what is
for pricing, because that's aquestion I get a lot when I
coach people through.
Something like this is they'relike oh, what do I start with
charging?
I don't know what to charge orif they're used to giving it for
free, or they're used toworking by the hour at an hourly
rate.
What's?
Your advice with thosegenerally?
Do you have a rule of thumb atan?
Mills (24:07):
hourly rate.
What's your advice with thosegenerally?
Do you have a rule of thumb?
I don't know if I have a ruleof thumb, but something that I
do to help with pricing is usingsomething like Toggle.
I don't know if you're familiarwith Toggle.
It's an app that basically istelling you exactly what you're
doing, the minutes, seconds thatyou're spending on things.
Just toggle your day and seehow much time you're spending on
(24:33):
certain things to be likeactually do you know what?
I don't need to charge myselfout at $10 an hour because
that's what it's coming out atwith all the work that's going
in.
So I'm not saying that youtranslate that to your clients,
but it's like for your ownawareness.
Just actually work out how muchtime you're spending on things
to feel like is that worth it?
Am I underselling?
(24:56):
Most people will undersellrather than oversell.
I think, when it comes toentrepreneurs, we tend to go,
okay, well, I'll just make thatcheaper.
Well, I'll just make thatcheaper.
But actually making thingscheaper does not mean it will
sell, because I would say youhave to sell a freebie.
You think, oh, it's free,everyone's gonna download my
freebie.
But they don't right, yeah, a,because we don't want them to
(25:18):
because we don't want to serveeveryone.
But b even your idealist, idealclient still isn't downloading
your freebie and you're likeit's free, why are you not
taking it?
So when I think of pricing, Ialso think of if you were to buy
.
Okay, let's just take it to aneveryday thing.
(25:39):
If you go to a grocery storeand there are blueberries for
sale and one of them I'm justusing like British currency and
turning it into dollars, so oneof them is like $3.50 and one's
$1.50.
And you look at them and you'relike I don't know, they kind of
(26:01):
look the same, but the $1.50 isprobably going to go out first.
It's going to go off out ofdate.
I'll go with the $3.50 becausethey look bigger and juicier.
They're probably the same thing.
It's your perception of it.
So it's like if we always arejust like, hey, I'm just super
cheap and I'm super by the hour,you're going to lose people who
are like, oh, I'll just go forthe, for the other version,
(26:22):
because it's probably going tobe better value.
So I think that has to come intoit as well.
That doesn't mean we just allcharge really expensive, but
it's just a few things toconsider, to like, put into the
mix, the cake mix, what goes in?
I'd say all of your training.
How much have you spent gettingto where you are today?
That has to be counted andfactored in how much you
(26:44):
actually spending doing thethings that you are doing to get
you there, so again usingtoggle.
And then, what kind of idleclient do you want?
Do you want clients who arelike, ready to pay, happy to pay
, or do you want clients whowant to haggle?
I know which ones I want.
Camille (26:59):
Oh, I know, I know.
Okay, this is another timingquestion With your emails.
You referenced that as havingyou know your freebie and then
your emails.
How many long?
How many emails in general?
I know these are very.
These can all be manipulateddifferent ways depending on the
scenario.
But in your idealgeneralization, how many emails
(27:22):
or how long should we nurturesomeone before we try to sell a
product?
Mills (27:28):
long should we nurture someone before we try to sell a
product?
Yeah, that's, it's great toanswer that, because I think
that you can collapse timewithout needing to even sell.
So you can just be like here'sme first email, here's your
thing, here's your freebie.
Second email hey, here's,here's some more exposure to me.
I'm helping this person withthat on this podcast or this
YouTube.
Or here's an article I wrote,again collapsing time, so that
(27:50):
they start to binge you,hopefully, binge watch or binge
read.
I always think five emails is anice flow.
I tend to do them every day ifit's from a lead magnet, and I
tend to set to drip feed inabout three or four, but that's
always with a PS.
Hey, ps, if you're ready,there's something I've got for
you.
And then the last email.
(28:11):
I'm usually driving themsomewhere.
So either to have aconversation with me like I
really enjoy, sell by chat,which is where I get them to
start a conversation with me,and that's usually with a call
to action Like hey, if you wantresults, like Julie, then DM me
the word yeah, strategy.
And then hopefully they DM meand then I can just be chatting
(28:32):
hey, where are you in yourbusiness?
Tell me a little bit more aboutyou and that's how I like to
get my higher ticket clients.
If it's for a service orproduct that's digital or
something that's a little bit,may not require a conversation.
I would drip feed by about emailfour and then in email five
I'll focus just on that solutionfor them.
(28:52):
So yeah, about five, but again,if you do more, you do more and
if you do less, you do less.
Just the shorter the time orthe shorter they have of you,
some people may need longer, aslong as you're then taking them
into some kind of I always callit like a master contact list
(29:13):
where they finish the sequence,they're then going into
somewhere and you're notforgetting about them.
They're getting regular emailsand I would say once to twice a
week is perfectly acceptable.
I think anything more I wouldprobably say is a lot.
But again, there's a differencebetween Brits and Americans
(29:34):
with this.
I don't know how many emails doyou usually if you, if you sign
up to something I think I'vehad somewhere, I've got like
five a day and I'm like whoa.
Camille (29:44):
Oh, yeah, I mean, I think that for sure, if
someone's selling something hardand it's like morning, noon,
night and you're like leave mealone, leave me alone.
Yeah, I think that that is toomuch, unless there is like one
ticket thing that you're youknow it happens once a year Like
that's fine, absolutely, andmaybe it's closing, sure, yeah,
yeah.
Otherwise I'm like once a weekis great.
(30:05):
Yeah, yeah.
Mills (30:06):
Yeah, it's a little bit like.
It's like that dating analogyLike you don't want to be, you
know, jump into bed with me thatquickly.
Camille (30:13):
So yeah, I'll just get to know you first, give me you
know I would suggest foreveryone listening to, and it's
interesting because I havedifferent freebies on different
websites where I have likediscover your why, where it's
like finding your purpose andconnecting with would you want
to start a business.
And then I have another that isthe mom balance playbook, where
(30:33):
it's, you know, figuring outways to find better balance and
in your life.
So I'm curious, what is yourfreebie?
Cause I'm sure you havesomething for everyone listening
.
And then everyone listening payattention to mills emails,
because she'll show you how todo it.
That's another thing to do iswatch for the people that are
(30:54):
doing it well, because that's acase study right there in and of
itself is pay attention to thetiming you like or the amount
that you really connects withyou and feels organic and
natural.
Mills (31:06):
A hundred percent like that awareness piece.
I think is so good to just beaware of what you like and model
yourself on that, versus whatsomeone's told you to do.
I don't like being told.
I'm always like that.
I'm anti that.
So I have a lot of lead magnetsthat I.
(31:26):
I play around with things, soit kind of depends what I'm
launching at the time as to whatI might push.
I will say one thing about leadmagnets if they are a cold, or
make sure that they are reallyfor a cold audience, a lot of
the time business owners makethe mistake of making a lead
magnet with the idea thatsomeone's willing to spend seven
(31:50):
days doing a journalingexercise.
They won't right, they don'tknow you, they're not going to
give you seven days.
They'll give you seven minutesif you're lucky.
Right, that's so, yeah, so it'salways like for a cold audience
.
It almost just needs to bequick and easy and then you
nurture um, if it's for a warmeraudience, yeah, you might get
(32:11):
seven days from them, and so Ialways think challenges are a
little bit challenging for acold audience.
Maybe three days is fine, butfive you might find people
aren't staying, and so I havelots of different lead magnets I
have, and it depends as well onwhich part of my audience I'm
trying to sell to.
So I tend to categorize myaudience and people they
(32:35):
generally know.
I don't make it super clearthat it's like level one, two,
three, but if we're just forargument's sake going to
categorize it like that, levelone might be at a stage in
business where they are happy tocome to like a workshop or an
in-person event or a paid, asmall low ticket paid thing, and
so I might have a lead magnetlike how to get the best hooks
(32:59):
and captions for someone whomight be at that stage in their
business.
For my higher ticket coaching,I might talk about um, looking
for higher cash months and youknow 10k months, which is more
of a hook for that type ofclient, and so yeah it's.
I have a few different ones mygeneral Instagram one, because I
(33:21):
feel like that kind of coverseverybody.
I have two on there.
I have a hooks one, so it's allabout captions and hooks, and I
have a higher caliber clientone, so it's like how to attract
higher caliber clients and it'san audit.
So they're both quite easy andquick and don't require a huge
amount of commitment from thecold audience and then the
(33:42):
nurture sequence again is bothdifferent for both, because I'm
really it depends where I wantto take them.
So when I look at a lead magnetI will always say start at the
end result where you want themto buy.
What is it, what is that?
And then work backwards andhave this really beautiful
(34:03):
through line that matches yourend result with the lead magnet.
So if I was going to docaptions and hooks as a lead
magnet, there's no point me thendoing something on podcasting
as the end goal, because they'dbe like what?
That doesn't make sense to me.
So start with the service thatyou were trying to sell and kind
(34:26):
of reverse engineer it.
Camille (34:28):
I love it.
That makes all the sense to me.
Yeah, yeah, I love that so muchand I think it's interesting to
to create different journeysfor for different things that
you're trying to offer, becauseit is it is different, and
recognizing that is reallyimportant.
Mills (34:43):
Yeah, yeah, and don't get too bogged down.
You know it's like do two hoursmax on your lead magnet and
then just send the damn thingLike I'm always like just get it
out, you can change it.
Camille (34:54):
So, looking back, if there was someone listening
right now who is very beginningor maybe they're not, maybe
they're in the middle and theywant to come up with something
new what advice would you havefor them to just get the thing
out?
Mills (35:07):
Yeah, again, it's goes back to that listening or
understanding where your clientis at right now and what they
think they need.
So, if it's a diet, talk abouthere's five things to eliminate
to lose weight, versus.
I'm going to give you abreathwork exercise that's going
to help you regulate yournervous system.
They won't go for that, theyjust want to lose weight.
(35:27):
So go with that kind of almostlike market research, go to and
solve the problem that they'rehaving right now and start there
.
If, whether you do like a videoor a PDF or a checklist, again,
make it quick, easy to consume,not a huge amount of commitment
(35:48):
from them.
They don't need to spend hoursdoing it because you've lost
them and and you know what, askchat gpt for some brainstorming
ideas.
Chat gpt is good enough.
Yeah, I use something calledclaude, which is I've heard of.
I've used claude, yeah.
(36:08):
Yeah, claude is really.
I feel claude is very good forcreatives, so I like using
Claude to just get some ideas.
So I might say hey, claude, Ifeel like I'm having an affair
with Claude.
Hey, claude, help me out here.
This is, you know, my clienthas this problem.
I'm selling this service.
(36:29):
Help me with five, five ideasfor a lead magnet and see what
he comes up with.
Camille (36:36):
Oh, I think it saves so much time.
I love it so much.
Well, that's amazing.
Well, I have had such awonderful chat with you.
I've loved it so much.
There's two questions that Iask every guest.
The first is what are youreading, watching or listening
to?
And the second is what's amotherhood moment you'd like to
share?
Mills (36:54):
Oh, my goodness, Well, I have an unhealthy obsession with
true crime.
Oh, yes, I literally I feellike in a past life I was a
detective, so I'm listening to.
At the moment I'm listening, Ijust listen to podcasts.
That's my main thing.
I read when I'm on holiday andI'm not on holiday yet, so at
the moment I'm listening, I justlisten to podcasts.
That's my main thing.
I read when I'm on holiday andI'm not on holiday yet.
(37:14):
So at the moment I'm listeningto something called Up and
Vanished, which is an Americanpodcast, familiar with it.
Yeah, so that's what I'mlistening to.
Camille (37:24):
And then a motherhood moment that repeat a motherhood
moment, any motherhood moment,any motherhood moment you'd want
to share.
Mills (37:32):
oh, my goodness, could be fun, it could be heartfelt, it
could be a learning experience,anything well, I am married to a
um, somebody who does iron man,which is like long distance
triathlon, so he's always likedo, do, do, do, do.
And we went on a family tripwhen the kids were really quite
(37:54):
young to South Africa and he waslike right, we're going to
climb Table Mountain.
And I was like this is going tobe a challenge.
I think they were like six andseven, but my youngest was just
like so gung ho, and anyway shedid it and we, you, you know it
was great.
But a couple of days ago wewatched the blog of the vlog
(38:17):
because my husband, I filmed thewhole thing and just the
funniest thing was that my 16who's now 16?
She was just like oh, my god,all I'm talking about is how you
haven't done a French plat inmy hair.
You weren't taking in anything,you were just like bitching
about the fact that you didn'thave a french plant.
She was like I missed the whole, like the whole moment of
(38:39):
climbing table mountain.
I was like that's life, honey.
That is like yeah, but no,they've.
They've always been like superadventurous and I'm always so
proud that they just go for itbecause there's no way they
couldn't, not because of myhusband being so like he's like
a tiger mom, but a dad I don'tknow what the expression is like
.
Do you use the expression tigermom?
(39:02):
uh, mama bear is what we saymore often yeah, okay, yeah,
tiger mom is more, is more likeum a kind of pushy, a pushy mom,
like the soccer mom, maybe.
Camille (39:15):
Oh, okay.
Mills (39:16):
Yeah, she's like come on, you can do it, you can do it.
Well, my husband is like that.
So they've always just grown upbeing like super adventurous
and just saying yes toeverything, and I'm always like
that is going to help you forthe rest of your life.
Absolutely, you're going to besorted, even if my eldest still
is a diva, and likes her hair tobe perfect.
Camille (39:35):
Hey, there are those core things that stick with us.
That's awesome, exactly,exactly.
Mills (39:40):
Well, this has been so good.
Camille (39:42):
I would love for you to share with the audience where
we can connect with you more,and I'll share the links below
as well.
Mills (39:47):
Yeah, thank you.
No, so, um, I have a weeklypodcast which is called soul
leaders.
Uh, so, yeah, please, that'sweekly marketing and sales tips.
And I hang out in instagrammainly.
That's like my place to be.
So I'm mills, underscore gray.
Just come and say hi, I'd loveto, I'd love to chat.
I'm, I'm, I love it, I love achat, I love a voice note.
(40:07):
So, yeah, connect with me onInstagram.
That would be amazing, and Iwill send you a link to a
freebie.
Then you've got one, okay we'lldo it.
Camille (40:16):
Yeah, thank you, thank you.
Thank you.
This has been so wonderful andI'm sure we will stay in contact
and I look forward to that.
Thank you so much.
Thank you so much for spendingyour time with me.
If you found this episodeinspiring or helpful, please let
me know in a comment.
In a five-star review, youcould have the chance of being a
(40:37):
featured review on an upcomingepisode.
Continue the conversation onInstagram at callmeceopodcast,
and remember you are the boss.
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