September 15, 2025 • 29 mins
Brother Stephen D Holder shares his journey from growing up with a single mother in Buffalo to finding faith through his grandmother's influence and a transformative experience at Christian camp.
• Growing up with a single mother who had spiritual background but didn't regularly attend church
• Grandmother's pivotal role in introducing him to church at age 8, simply saying "it's time for you to start going"
• Finding spiritual connection at Camp Hunts in Hubbardsville, NY around age 15-16
• Wrestling with feeling "not ready" for baptism despite understanding the gospel
• Experiencing his "first sin" shortly after baptism by singing a worldly song
• Going through a difficult church split that tested his faith
• Drifting away during college years in a "prodigal son" period
• Being drawn back to church by his grandmother's unwavering commitment despite serious illness
• Learning that faith isn't about knowing everything but living authentically in way that draws others
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
So I got baptized.
I'm here, I'm feeling good.
I can't sing that anymore.
I can't sing bodies hitting thefloor.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
I can't see that, but at the same time.
I'm seeing everybody who alsowas Christian saying let the
bodies hit the floor, I'm like,no, no, I can't do it.
(00:28):
Hello and welcome world to theCall by God podcast.
I'm your host, brother Nick,and I'm not here with my dear
co-host, sister Adni, but we arejoined here today with a
special guest, brother StephenHolder.
Man, how you doing on thisblessed day, brother, about
yourself, man, oh man, I'mblessed.
(00:49):
I'm blessed.
So we're recording on a sunday,sunday, sunday.
So before we get into yourepisode, you know please, how
was worship today?
Speaker 1 (00:59):
would you sing something?
I'm not a singer bro.
What you want me to do?
Speaker 2 (01:03):
no, no, no, I was, I was where.
You know.
You know we go, we cometogether, we congregate, we
worship, we fellowship and um,how was worship with the saints?
Speaker 1 (01:14):
was was very good.
We had a uh um member who waspreaching.
Our minister is out of town.
He's actually in greece, um,doing like a nice trip.
Okay, um, in Greece doing anice trip.
He's doing a whole bunch ofstuff over there.
I saw some of his photos, butworship was good today.
I think it definitely touchedsome people.
Everybody needs to hearsomething at some point.
(01:34):
I caught some glimpses of it asI was working in tech, but it
was good though it was good.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
Amen, Amen.
Well, I know I just got, I knowI just kind of caught you off
guard with that question, but,um, for the sake, for the sake
of our, our listeners and ourviewers, uh, before we get into
your initial question, just tellum, our listeners and our
viewers a little bit.
Speaker 1 (02:05):
Oh sure, no problem.
So, um, my D Holder I use the Dbecause that's very important
to me D, not D.
But Stephen D Holder is me,stephen Holder is an actor on
Netflix and Stephen Holder is acorrespondent on ESPN.
Stephen D Holder is your boy,okay, so I like to put that out
there.
I like using my middle initial.
It kind of gives me somedistinguishes, me.
(02:28):
But, man, I mean I guess Inever really talked about myself
, so I'm going to give this ashot.
But I mean, I'm from Buffalo,new York.
I did all my schooling inBuffalo under elementary, high
school and college grad.
Once I finished with that,moved to Ohio with my uncle for
(02:48):
a little bit.
He got me a job, started to bein IT, I went to school for a
teacher but teaching wasn'tworking out, so got in IT,
stayed in IT and just kind ofmade my own path from there and
from Ohio to Cleveland, ohio, dc, detroit and finally moved to
(03:09):
Raleigh, north Carolina, in 2015.
So this is where I call homeright now.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
It's exciting to me just to hear a little bit about
the guests before they said yesto the gospel.
So my question to you, brotherStephen D Holder.
I like how you put the D inthere.
Now I got to put emphasis onthat.
Brother Stephen D Holder, giveour listeners and our viewers a
(03:35):
glimpse into your upbringing andbackground before you said yes
and obeyed the gospel.
Speaker 1 (03:41):
Yeah, sure.
So I mean I'm going to startthis answer off in a little
strange way.
I don't want to go left field.
But we'll see how it goes.
So the first memory that I canever remember in my life was I
was small and I was by a treewith a bunch of leaves.
Okay, I'm saying that for areason.
Hopefully I can get to it.
But fast forwarding to when Iwas getting older.
(04:07):
Single mom, you know, notnecessarily in the hood, but not
the best area In Buffalo.
Speaker 2 (04:13):
She did what she could and you know, love her.
Speaker 1 (04:16):
She's still here.
So you know we're doing allright.
And I went to a public school.
I love public school, but I wasa little rough.
In went to a public school, Ilove public school, but I was a
little rough in the beginning ofpublic school.
I was a little rough and, um, Idon't really like conflict and
stuff like that.
And one day I was just gettingyou know, kids are bothering me,
(04:38):
whatever and my mom's like,listen, you got to do something
about this, can't keep doing it.
So I said this can't keep doing.
So I said, oh, okay, but itwent a little too far.
And um, some other thingsnothing like awful, but um, that
was an experience.
So, um, yeah, I mean I don'twant to say stereotypical kid in
the hood with a single mom, butthat's what I'm going with.
(05:01):
Yeah, for right now.
And you know, that's normal.
That's normal between,especially our culture yeah,
well, I mean, there wasdefinitely family around to help
right, the whole village thing.
But people move in differentplaces and you had to get
dropped off here, so many todrop you off there, and I don't
fault them at all.
They did what they had right.
But in terms of just living,you know I was living with at
(05:22):
least in my early years I waswith her.
Was your mother a?
Speaker 2 (05:34):
church-going woman yeah, she had any spiritual
background yeah, she definitelyhad a spiritual background.
Speaker 1 (05:42):
Her sister and their brother, they all have a
spiritual background.
But I guess when she had me andshe was working, um, not that
she never disbelieved, but Imean it just wasn't not like a
regular occurrence of going onsunday, if that makes some sense
, right and I think I think thiswill kind of unveil, as you
know, we kind of go, go throughthe questions and kind of dig a
(06:03):
little deeper.
Speaker 2 (06:06):
Yeah, yeah, the reason why I ask that?
Because when I was a kid, samething I grew up a single.
My mother was a single mother.
Praise be to God.
God gave her the strength toraise seven children.
She had a total of eightchildren, but God gave her the
strength to raise up seven andthe only memory that I have of
(06:27):
her in terms of the spiritualcomponent was she used to like
force us to go to church.
We were like little kids andshe was like, yeah, you're going
to go to church, you're notstaying here on Sunday, and
there are times that she wouldgo to church, but there are
times that she would stay homeand then she would just send us
to somebody church.
So we went to like differentchurches when we were young.
And then that's what Iappreciate about my mom was that
(06:50):
piece that she tried her bestbecause there was no man in the
house, because there was nofather figure, she didn't have a
husband.
She made sure that her childrenlearn about the master Jesus
Christ.
So, and that's that's going toa nice little segue to the next
question.
So my question to you is likewho taught you the gospel and
(07:12):
how long after the teaching didit take you to obey the gospel?
Speaker 1 (07:16):
Yeah, so to answer that, I turned.
I think I think I turned eightyears old and I was playing over
at my grandmother's house andshe, just out of the blue, said
how old are you?
I said I'm eight and she saidit's time for you to start going
to church.
To which I said church, what'sthat Right?
(07:38):
So that's kind of how I kind ofgot into it and.
I'm sure my mom said thingsabout God or Jesus when I was
younger.
Maybe I just wasn't receivingwhat she was saying at that time
, but my grandmother actuallystopped me, like how old are you
?
Okay, it's time for you tostart going to church.
So that's kind of what got meback into it and I mean it got
(07:58):
my mom kind of going back intoit too.
Right, you know, stephen's thisold.
Now he needs to start knowingabout god and jesus and going to
church.
I go to church right here.
Y'all welcome to come.
And that's kind of how I gotinto into church.
I guess.
Um, yeah, I think, uh, I thinkI was going because I was kind
(08:21):
of told to do, told to go.
Um, I don't necessarily think Ifought it really.
I know you hear stories aboutpeople.
I fought it.
Like you know, I was forced togo this and that, the other
thing.
My mom wasn't really a forcefulperson in terms of that, but
she was like, yeah, no, it's agood idea, it's probably good
that you go.
Speaker 2 (08:39):
So I started going and I was right at that age
where everybody was always tooold or too young.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
So I was like 10.
And like the closest friendwell, the closest friend I had
at the time was a minister, butin terms of like my age range,
if I'm 10, the closest person ismaybe like 22.
Okay, and then like theyoungest person is like six,
like five and six, and then theyhave siblings.
So I would never really havelike that.
I don't want to say youthconnection, but I never had
(09:08):
people around my age.
I got to talk with everybody.
Everybody was very friendly,but I was at that age where I
felt it was a little difficult.
But I started going to churchand started slowly, slowly
realizing what's kind of goingon.
But the thing that really setme on with the gospel was, once
I started going to church, mygrandfather, who I call dad.
(09:28):
He was like hey, you know, youneed to go to, you know, a
Christian camp.
It's called Camp Hunts,hubbersville, new York, and
again I'm like camp, what's that, aside from just what you see
on television, right, you thinkof Nickelodeon shows or whatever
.
Like, oh, okay.
Speaker 2 (09:43):
So I was like all right, let's just go to camp.
Speaker 1 (09:45):
So I went to camp and I actually loved it.
It was like this is amazing.
You know the activities, thepraising, the worshiping, the
singing.
I'm not a singer by any means.
But I've just seen other peoplesing and how different people
can come together from differentspots around the state.
I'm from New York originally,right?
So different people from NewYork come to this camp and it
(10:10):
was, you know, it was good forme, right, it was it was good
for me because I didn't reallyhave that.
So, um one year, at the campthere's a guy named uh uh, uh,
will spina.
I still know him.
He's preacher minister inarizona right now at a church of
christ, and he's like hey,young man, let me talk to you
right quick.
I'm like what you want to talkto me about, man, what you doing
(10:32):
?
And we started sitting down,opening up the book, going to it
.
Now, by this time I was around15 or 16.
But I knew that something hadto be done.
He was talking with me, sittingdown, going through things,
showing me scriptures and givingme scenarios of you know things
(10:54):
.
That kind of connect with me, Ithink.
Speaker 2 (10:58):
And you know, the question came well you know, do
you think you're ready?
Speaker 1 (11:01):
And I'm like, oh, I don't know.
Well, you don't know, but youjust answered all these
questions.
Speaker 2 (11:06):
Yeah, but I don't know.
Speaker 1 (11:07):
All right.
Well, you know the water's notgoing anywhere.
We have a pool right here youcan go.
So I mean I was back and fortha little bit with it but
ultimately I did commit andhopefully.
I did say Jesus Christ is myLord and Savior and Son of God.
I went down into that water,came up saying taking care of
business, I think is what I said.
Something like, something likethat.
I don't, I was, I was, I washappy, I was happy.
(11:31):
I do want to add one thing tothis, because I do think it's
important to to know Um, I don'twant to say I didn't want to
say I felt pressured, or I wantto say it was coaxing me or
pushing me.
I don't want.
I do not want to say thatbecause that wasn't the case.
But in myself I wasn't sure ifI was ready.
But then, especially gettingolder and looking back and stuff
(11:54):
, but you're never going to beready, that's kind of what faith
is right.
I'm believing in you, I'mputting my trust in you.
So, whether you think you'reready or not, if you're
answering these questions andyou're studying with a gentleman
who's taking time out to reallystudy with you, you're ready.
Yeah, we're ready.
(12:18):
I'll stop there.
Speaker 2 (12:19):
I like that you said that because when I was young,
and how old were you when yougot saved?
Speaker 1 (12:24):
I want to say 15, 16.
It was July 15, 1998.
Speaker 2 (12:31):
Yeah, that's a good age too, Because when I was
around that age, somewherearound middle school, high
school-ish people used to talkto me about Jesus Because, as I
mentioned, my mom forced us togo to church, so I knew a little
something about Jesus.
But people over time used tocome to me here and there.
We had this young kid in middleschool.
(12:51):
He used to walk up to us withthe Bible and the crazy thing
about it, he's the Church ofChrist.
So it was like a little kid inmiddle school.
He's like, hey, man, do youknow about Jesus?
And he would do this faithfully.
So he wasn't like no, no, coldChristian, he was like a
Christian that was on fire forthe Lord at young, at that age.
(13:12):
So if I'm 15, he must have beenlike 13, 13 years old with the
Bible, preaching the gospel, andI would never forget like he
would like walk up to differentindividuals.
But I knew a little thing or twoabout Jesus, but in my mind I
would say that I'm not ready,and so I used to try to play
with God, you know, cause Idon't know if people do this,
(13:34):
but I'm saying this is what Idid.
I said let me get all the sinout the way, Cause you think
about the do's and don'ts.
I don't care what nobody said,You're going to think about the
do's and don'ts like man.
If I obey the gospel, man, Ican't do this.
(13:58):
I can do this Especially whenyou're young.
Speaker 1 (13:59):
You're like I can't do this.
I can't do it.
Speaker 2 (14:00):
So I say to God internally I'm going to give my
life to you when I'm like 30years old.
Let me get the sense.
So did you think about that?
I'm just saying that.
Did you think about?
Speaker 1 (14:07):
that Absolutely.
I talked to Will about this too.
Speaker 2 (14:12):
I was like well if.
Speaker 1 (14:12):
I'm not ready now.
What about later?
He's like well, yeah, you cando it later, but is that
guaranteed?
And at the age of 16, I wasn'tthinking about it, oh, I didn't
think about that.
Speaker 2 (14:20):
And you don't want to get dark and gloomy, like you
know what happens if I'm notseeing the sun happen.
Speaker 1 (14:31):
It looks at me.
I was like well, what's thebook say?
Now, there's more to it, LikeI'm kind of not not glossing
over it, but these were the thiswas studying, this is called
studying Right.
And um you through that.
(14:51):
But yeah, I absolutely did.
And I mean, I don't know if youremember so, when I this 98 and
after I got baptized, um, youknow, we went to a campfire it
was camping, we did all thisstuff and the song um, the song
by drowning pool called bodieswas out and it was just people
getting hyped up saying let thebodies hit the floor over and,
over and over again but it waslike a thing where everybody
(15:13):
like right it was, soccer washuge at this camp.
Everybody loved soccer andteams.
Speaker 2 (15:16):
Oh, let the bodies hit the floor so I got baptized.
Speaker 1 (15:19):
I'm here, I'm feeling good.
It's like I can't sing thatanymore.
I can't sing bodies hitting thefloor.
I can't see that.
But at the same time, I'mseeing everybody who also was
Christian saying whoa, that's abody.
I'm like, no, no, I can't dothis.
But ultimately I joined in andfor me that was like my first
(15:40):
sin after baptism, which thiswas Wednesday, this was probably
like Thursday, All right, solike a day after.
It was so quick and I'm like, oh, I'm like, oh, I failed him, I
failed him and you know, I kindof I think I don't know if I
told will or I told somebody,and they're just like all right.
Well, I mean, it's a song,you'll be okay, you're kind of
(16:00):
brushing it off.
But like I'm like new andyou're brushing it off and I'm
like I messed up already.
It hasn't even been 24 hoursalready I messed up singing.
You know, let the bodies sit onthe floor when it's not what I
think maybe humans wouldconsider sin right, because
spiritual sin and what the fleshthinks are sin, sin is sin.
(16:20):
But you know, in the humanworld, oh okay, you take that
penny, it's okay, no, it's sinIs that yours?
No, you, take it.
It's called stealing.
So, um, take it, it's calledstealing, so um, so yeah, I mean
.
So that that was my point,right there, right away.
Like for me partaking in thatsong with everybody else, even
outside of christian camp, eventhough these are christians me
(16:41):
coming out of the water to thatwas trying to fight it, I was
like oh and then, and then it'slike the itch like it's gonna be
okay, it's not gonna be so bad.
You know it's like ah, so right,right, that's it's going to be
okay, it's not going to be sobad you know it's like, ah, so
that's a long-winded way ofanswering your question.
Speaker 2 (16:57):
But yeah, no, you're good.
You're good.
We could chop it up, because Ilike how you clarified that
nobody forced you into givingyour life to the Lord.
I think most people, they thinkthey're going to live for a
long time.
They think they're going tolive for a long time.
Even kids, you know young kidsmiddle school, high school you
talk about the gospel.
They sometimes think that theyhave tomorrow.
(17:18):
We know the Bible clearly saysthat we don't have tomorrow.
Tomorrow is a gift.
So even if we make it tomorrow,that's a gift, that's a
blessing, you know.
So I like the fact that youbrought that up, because if
somebody is talking to you aboutthe gospel today, like you
should obey the gospel today.
That very same day, we talkabout Philip in a unit.
He didn't waste any time, right, he didn't waste any time.
(17:40):
So being baptized so young.
You know a young Christianconvicted of the worldly song
that you was listening to, andthen you watching, looking
around other Christians sayingthe same thing, but you had a
conviction in your heart.
So were there any times in yourlife to watch the journey in
(18:02):
your early Christian walk oreven later, where you find
yourself in the wilderness,where God had to try you in your
faith and where you had to growfrom faith to faith.
Could you share a story?
Speaker 1 (18:12):
Yeah, sure.
So, um, this is still inBuffalo.
Um, I'm just going to kind ofget right to it.
The church I was attending wasgoing through a split, okay and,
um, you know it happens all thetime, unfortunately but this
(18:38):
one was pretty bad and reallydivided the people that were at
this building and there was, youknow, side A and side B, and I
stayed with side A, which wasstaying at the building, and
side B went off and eventuallyformed their own congregation.
Now, I stayed because I wasfriends with the minister and my
friends were there.
I knew it was familiar to me,but come to find out later and
by later I don't mean too muchlater because my grandmother, my
(19:00):
dad, kind of got with me andsaid hey, listen, according to
the scriptures this is wrong andI know you like going there,
but this isn't right.
Because my grandmother left, Ican't, I can't, I can't, I
understand.
And then I started kind ofgetting like not in a whirlwind,
but, just kind of like theground shifting beneath me Right
(19:21):
.
Speaker 2 (19:21):
Like oh.
Speaker 1 (19:21):
I'm going to church, I'm doing all this stuff.
I was just baptized, like howis?
Speaker 2 (19:25):
this happening?
How is this?
Speaker 1 (19:26):
happening and I'm still young, I'm only 16 or 17
now at this point, but it stillhappened and yeah, it did.
So I did a little studying withmy dad a little bit, and you
know, I tried to ask theminister at the time questions,
but I just wasn't, honestly, Ijust wasn't strong enough to ask
the right questions and whythey chose what they chose.
(19:47):
So ultimately I left right.
But I left because of what Igot at home and saying hey, this
is what they're saying and thisis what the word says, this is
what the book says, but this iswhat they said.
And if you don't believe me,you know, because back then they
still sent out letters tochurches.
I'm going to still do that now.
It's probably emails, but theysent out letters to other
(20:07):
churches, at least Churches ofChrist, about what's going down,
so you'd know what it is.
And that's like I'm not hidingthat.
That's what people did.
You know more than if you wentfrom one congregation to another
, you had to get a letter of notreference, but like a letter of
something to say, hey, thisperson's coming from my
congregation.
You know, this is what they'vedone, so they can come to your
(20:30):
congregation.
There's a word for it.
I'll follow up with you on that.
But yeah, I mean, this is whathe said in the letter, right?
I was like, wow, okay.
So I wound up leaving and youknow I got a letter from this
church saying, oh man, yeah, youknow, we'd love to have you
back and this and that, but youknow, if it's not the book, it's
(20:51):
not the book.
So I didn't go and that kind ofmessed up my church regularly
going routine I guess, if youwant to call it that where I
wasn't really going to anychurch and at that point all I
had was that Christian camp, soI would look forward to the
(21:11):
Christian camp, and that keptgoing on for a while.
All I had was that Christiancamp, so I would look forward to
the Christian camp, and thatkept going on for a while.
And then I'll just fast forwardto maybe ending high school
college.
I just I just prodigal son,without the money, oh yeah, oh
yeah, without the money, causehe had money, I didn't have the
money.
I just prodigal son.
And when I say prodigal son, Idon't mean like out on the
(21:33):
streets, I just mean like I juststopped going, like entirely.
Just, I just stopped goingentirely.
I was in college, freshman,sophomore, whatever, and I just
wasn't Brother Stephen.
(22:03):
So for the unchurched people,what is a prodigal son?
When you say prodigal son, whatdo you mean?
Could?
you explain that, and that'skind of the attitude I took a
little bit With church.
It's going to be okay, I canpray and I'll be forgiven.
I'll just kind of move on outthere.
So that's what I was operatingunder.
That's what I was operatingunder.
So college, then you went offto college.
(22:28):
Also, I've got to take someaccountability here.
By this time I'm driving.
It was very easy to findanother church of Christ, which
I ultimately did do, but in themeantime I did not.
And what got me, whatreintroduced me back into church
, was the same person who askedme how old are you?
My grandmother, but it was alittle indirect.
She got extremely sick,extremely sick, and there are a
(22:49):
lot of health conditions, a lotof health, this and that, but
she always went to church.
By this time she was with GroupB from that original split that
went to Form your OwnCongregation.
When she got really sick, I waslike I want to go, I'm going to
go and support her and stuff.
I went back to the church A lotsmaller, different building,
(23:12):
but still kind of the same Iwon't say format, but still kind
of what I was used to, beingfamiliar from before and I think
that was like wow, okay, notonly am I supporting you know
her but I'm also like I needsome of this, because now I'm a
little older, I understand alittle bit more and, yeah, that
(23:32):
got me back into it and buff.
Speaker 2 (23:35):
We need more grandmothers like that.
You know, because and thank godthat nothing really crazy
happened to you, like when youhad your prodigal son moment.
You know because sometimespeople don't make it back to the
church or sometimes people havelike crazy stories, they've got
internal illness.
God had to beat me up you knowwhat I mean and ordered me to
(23:57):
get back in fellowship.
Obviously, you know yourgrandmother was in well, but you
know through that circumstanceit got you back in alignment and
even back in fellowship.
Speaker 1 (24:10):
And when I say indirectly because I knew she
was getting ill when it was kindof starting.
But the thing that really gotme and this kind of really, I
think, pricked my heart was,through all her ailments and
everything she was going through, she still found a way to make
it to that building.
It wasn't even like, hey,stephen, you know you should
(24:31):
come to church.
I mean, she probably said somestuff in passing, but what got
me was like how is she stillgoing to church when all this
stuff is happening to her?
She's still making it right.
And it was kind of rough.
This new building was roughconditions.
It was in the neighborhood.
There was no parking, one-waystreets, you know almost
everything.
The devil's putting up allthese barriers to block you to
(24:53):
the building, you know.
And she still made it.
So, um, I was like, yeah, Ineed to get, I need to kind of
get back in, you know, back intothis, back into this.
Speaker 2 (25:04):
So, um, that's, I think, kind of yeah, wow, no,
that's, that's amazing Cause.
Um, that's a testament of herfaith, because that tells me
that you've seen her faith andthat's ultimately led you back
into fellowship.
Because I was going to ask youthis question, I was going to
ask you if there's any biblicalfigures or Bible verses or
(25:24):
Christian figures that haveplayed a crucial role in shaping
your belief.
But, man, if I can, I think Ican answer that for you.
We're going to give a shout outto grandma.
I'm not even going to ask youthat question because you
brought up grandma twice, so I'mgoing to I don't think there's
anybody else that's going tohighlight your grandma, yeah.
Speaker 1 (25:41):
So we called her.
We called her Bunner, grandma'sfine, but like we called her,
like all the the um, hergrandchildren called her Bunner,
but uh, yeah, no, shedefinitely did and it was always
something that, like you know,it was just something about her
Because, like, even, like youknow, we'd be over her house and
she was that old.
You know, she's from Louisiana,right, and so, just like you
(26:05):
see in the movies, where youknow, things are just going
awful just awful, awful, awful.
And you just see a woman sittingdown in a chair just singing
that old hymn.
I don't know what she's singing, but it's singing something.
Speaker 2 (26:19):
It's singing something, yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:22):
And then, you know, I always stuck with me and this
is like throughout my life,right, and it's like man this is
yeah.
So yeah, I mean for sure, mygrandmom is the one who you know
I got a lot of people I loveand you know my dad took care of
me.
He taught you know when it comedown to like paper and pencil,
(26:42):
pencil and or pen and paper, youknow he's like write this down.
You know you need to have some.
You know you need to have someknowledge because even though I
got baptized at that age and Imoved on, I continued life.
You know, if you don't use itand I may use it, I mean like
study it, you kind of lose somestuff and even now today,
there's some things that Iprobably should know, that I
(27:03):
just kind of don't, and when youget caught on it it's like oh.
But then you go back and youread it, it's like oh yeah, I
knew that.
I knew that.
I knew that, but you didn't knowit then and that's okay, that
used to get with me, that usedto get me a lot.
I didn't know something that Ishould have known, or people
said I should have known.
But then one person said to mewell, you know, it is good to
know all this stuff, but noteverybody is necessarily built
(27:25):
to be a preacher or an educator,or you know, that's fact.
It just may not be your.
Just you doing what you do andpeople see your aura.
And then you say you're goingto church on Sunday.
That is maybe what you're herefor, to get somebody else in.
Right, you don't have toexplain the gospel to well.
Let's say explain, but youdon't have to try and capture
(27:53):
everybody.
So I got baptized.
I'm here, I'm feeling good.
I can't sing that anymore.
I can't sing bodies hitting thefloor.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
I can't see that, but at the same time.
I'm seeing everybody who alsowas Christian saying let the
bodies hit the floor, I'm like,no, no, I can't do it.
(00:28):
Hello and welcome world to theCall by God podcast.
I'm your host, brother Nick,and I'm not here with my dear
co-host, sister Adni, but we arejoined here today with a
special guest, brother StephenHolder.
Man, how you doing on thisblessed day, brother, about
yourself, man, oh man, I'mblessed.
(00:49):
I'm blessed.
So we're recording on a sunday,sunday, sunday.
So before we get into yourepisode, you know please, how
was worship today?
Speaker 1 (00:59):
would you sing something?
I'm not a singer bro.
What you want me to do?
Speaker 2 (01:03):
no, no, no, I was, I was where.
You know.
You know we go, we cometogether, we congregate, we
worship, we fellowship and um,how was worship with the saints?
Speaker 1 (01:14):
was was very good.
We had a uh um member who waspreaching.
Our minister is out of town.
He's actually in greece, um,doing like a nice trip.
Okay, um, in Greece doing anice trip.
He's doing a whole bunch ofstuff over there.
I saw some of his photos, butworship was good today.
I think it definitely touchedsome people.
Everybody needs to hearsomething at some point.
(01:34):
I caught some glimpses of it asI was working in tech, but it
was good though it was good.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
Amen, Amen.
Well, I know I just got, I knowI just kind of caught you off
guard with that question, but,um, for the sake, for the sake
of our, our listeners and ourviewers, uh, before we get into
your initial question, just tellum, our listeners and our
viewers a little bit.
Speaker 1 (02:05):
Oh sure, no problem.
So, um, my D Holder I use the Dbecause that's very important
to me D, not D.
But Stephen D Holder is me,stephen Holder is an actor on
Netflix and Stephen Holder is acorrespondent on ESPN.
Stephen D Holder is your boy,okay, so I like to put that out
there.
I like using my middle initial.
It kind of gives me somedistinguishes, me.
(02:28):
But, man, I mean I guess Inever really talked about myself
, so I'm going to give this ashot.
But I mean, I'm from Buffalo,new York.
I did all my schooling inBuffalo under elementary, high
school and college grad.
Once I finished with that,moved to Ohio with my uncle for
(02:48):
a little bit.
He got me a job, started to bein IT, I went to school for a
teacher but teaching wasn'tworking out, so got in IT,
stayed in IT and just kind ofmade my own path from there and
from Ohio to Cleveland, ohio, dc, detroit and finally moved to
(03:09):
Raleigh, north Carolina, in 2015.
So this is where I call homeright now.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
It's exciting to me just to hear a little bit about
the guests before they said yesto the gospel.
So my question to you, brotherStephen D Holder.
I like how you put the D inthere.
Now I got to put emphasis onthat.
Brother Stephen D Holder, giveour listeners and our viewers a
(03:35):
glimpse into your upbringing andbackground before you said yes
and obeyed the gospel.
Speaker 1 (03:41):
Yeah, sure.
So I mean I'm going to startthis answer off in a little
strange way.
I don't want to go left field.
But we'll see how it goes.
So the first memory that I canever remember in my life was I
was small and I was by a treewith a bunch of leaves.
Okay, I'm saying that for areason.
Hopefully I can get to it.
But fast forwarding to when Iwas getting older.
(04:07):
Single mom, you know, notnecessarily in the hood, but not
the best area In Buffalo.
Speaker 2 (04:13):
She did what she could and you know, love her.
Speaker 1 (04:16):
She's still here.
So you know we're doing allright.
And I went to a public school.
I love public school, but I wasa little rough.
In went to a public school, Ilove public school, but I was a
little rough in the beginning ofpublic school.
I was a little rough and, um, Idon't really like conflict and
stuff like that.
And one day I was just gettingyou know, kids are bothering me,
(04:38):
whatever and my mom's like,listen, you got to do something
about this, can't keep doing it.
So I said this can't keep doing.
So I said, oh, okay, but itwent a little too far.
And um, some other thingsnothing like awful, but um, that
was an experience.
So, um, yeah, I mean I don'twant to say stereotypical kid in
the hood with a single mom, butthat's what I'm going with.
(05:01):
Yeah, for right now.
And you know, that's normal.
That's normal between,especially our culture yeah,
well, I mean, there wasdefinitely family around to help
right, the whole village thing.
But people move in differentplaces and you had to get
dropped off here, so many todrop you off there, and I don't
fault them at all.
They did what they had right.
But in terms of just living,you know I was living with at
(05:22):
least in my early years I waswith her.
Was your mother a?
Speaker 2 (05:34):
church-going woman yeah, she had any spiritual
background yeah, she definitelyhad a spiritual background.
Speaker 1 (05:42):
Her sister and their brother, they all have a
spiritual background.
But I guess when she had me andshe was working, um, not that
she never disbelieved, but Imean it just wasn't not like a
regular occurrence of going onsunday, if that makes some sense
, right and I think I think thiswill kind of unveil, as you
know, we kind of go, go throughthe questions and kind of dig a
(06:03):
little deeper.
Speaker 2 (06:06):
Yeah, yeah, the reason why I ask that?
Because when I was a kid, samething I grew up a single.
My mother was a single mother.
Praise be to God.
God gave her the strength toraise seven children.
She had a total of eightchildren, but God gave her the
strength to raise up seven andthe only memory that I have of
(06:27):
her in terms of the spiritualcomponent was she used to like
force us to go to church.
We were like little kids andshe was like, yeah, you're going
to go to church, you're notstaying here on Sunday, and
there are times that she wouldgo to church, but there are
times that she would stay homeand then she would just send us
to somebody church.
So we went to like differentchurches when we were young.
And then that's what Iappreciate about my mom was that
(06:50):
piece that she tried her bestbecause there was no man in the
house, because there was nofather figure, she didn't have a
husband.
She made sure that her childrenlearn about the master Jesus
Christ.
So, and that's that's going toa nice little segue to the next
question.
So my question to you is likewho taught you the gospel and
(07:12):
how long after the teaching didit take you to obey the gospel?
Speaker 1 (07:16):
Yeah, so to answer that, I turned.
I think I think I turned eightyears old and I was playing over
at my grandmother's house andshe, just out of the blue, said
how old are you?
I said I'm eight and she saidit's time for you to start going
to church.
To which I said church, what'sthat Right?
(07:38):
So that's kind of how I kind ofgot into it and.
I'm sure my mom said thingsabout God or Jesus when I was
younger.
Maybe I just wasn't receivingwhat she was saying at that time
, but my grandmother actuallystopped me, like how old are you
?
Okay, it's time for you tostart going to church.
So that's kind of what got meback into it and I mean it got
(07:58):
my mom kind of going back intoit too.
Right, you know, stephen's thisold.
Now he needs to start knowingabout god and jesus and going to
church.
I go to church right here.
Y'all welcome to come.
And that's kind of how I gotinto into church.
I guess.
Um, yeah, I think, uh, I thinkI was going because I was kind
(08:21):
of told to do, told to go.
Um, I don't necessarily think Ifought it really.
I know you hear stories aboutpeople.
I fought it.
Like you know, I was forced togo this and that, the other
thing.
My mom wasn't really a forcefulperson in terms of that, but
she was like, yeah, no, it's agood idea, it's probably good
that you go.
Speaker 2 (08:39):
So I started going and I was right at that age
where everybody was always tooold or too young.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
So I was like 10.
And like the closest friendwell, the closest friend I had
at the time was a minister, butin terms of like my age range,
if I'm 10, the closest person ismaybe like 22.
Okay, and then like theyoungest person is like six,
like five and six, and then theyhave siblings.
So I would never really havelike that.
I don't want to say youthconnection, but I never had
(09:08):
people around my age.
I got to talk with everybody.
Everybody was very friendly,but I was at that age where I
felt it was a little difficult.
But I started going to churchand started slowly, slowly
realizing what's kind of goingon.
But the thing that really setme on with the gospel was, once
I started going to church, mygrandfather, who I call dad.
(09:28):
He was like hey, you know, youneed to go to, you know, a
Christian camp.
It's called Camp Hunts,hubbersville, new York, and
again I'm like camp, what's that, aside from just what you see
on television, right, you thinkof Nickelodeon shows or whatever
.
Like, oh, okay.
Speaker 2 (09:43):
So I was like all right, let's just go to camp.
Speaker 1 (09:45):
So I went to camp and I actually loved it.
It was like this is amazing.
You know the activities, thepraising, the worshiping, the
singing.
I'm not a singer by any means.
But I've just seen other peoplesing and how different people
can come together from differentspots around the state.
I'm from New York originally,right?
So different people from NewYork come to this camp and it
(10:10):
was, you know, it was good forme, right, it was it was good
for me because I didn't reallyhave that.
So, um one year, at the campthere's a guy named uh uh, uh,
will spina.
I still know him.
He's preacher minister inarizona right now at a church of
christ, and he's like hey,young man, let me talk to you
right quick.
I'm like what you want to talkto me about, man, what you doing
(10:32):
?
And we started sitting down,opening up the book, going to it
.
Now, by this time I was around15 or 16.
But I knew that something hadto be done.
He was talking with me, sittingdown, going through things,
showing me scriptures and givingme scenarios of you know things
(10:54):
.
That kind of connect with me, Ithink.
Speaker 2 (10:58):
And you know, the question came well you know, do
you think you're ready?
Speaker 1 (11:01):
And I'm like, oh, I don't know.
Well, you don't know, but youjust answered all these
questions.
Speaker 2 (11:06):
Yeah, but I don't know.
Speaker 1 (11:07):
All right.
Well, you know the water's notgoing anywhere.
We have a pool right here youcan go.
So I mean I was back and fortha little bit with it but
ultimately I did commit andhopefully.
I did say Jesus Christ is myLord and Savior and Son of God.
I went down into that water,came up saying taking care of
business, I think is what I said.
Something like, something likethat.
I don't, I was, I was, I washappy, I was happy.
(11:31):
I do want to add one thing tothis, because I do think it's
important to to know Um, I don'twant to say I didn't want to
say I felt pressured, or I wantto say it was coaxing me or
pushing me.
I don't want.
I do not want to say thatbecause that wasn't the case.
But in myself I wasn't sure ifI was ready.
But then, especially gettingolder and looking back and stuff
(11:54):
, but you're never going to beready, that's kind of what faith
is right.
I'm believing in you, I'mputting my trust in you.
So, whether you think you'reready or not, if you're
answering these questions andyou're studying with a gentleman
who's taking time out to reallystudy with you, you're ready.
Yeah, we're ready.
(12:18):
I'll stop there.
Speaker 2 (12:19):
I like that you said that because when I was young,
and how old were you when yougot saved?
Speaker 1 (12:24):
I want to say 15, 16.
It was July 15, 1998.
Speaker 2 (12:31):
Yeah, that's a good age too, Because when I was
around that age, somewherearound middle school, high
school-ish people used to talkto me about Jesus Because, as I
mentioned, my mom forced us togo to church, so I knew a little
something about Jesus.
But people over time used tocome to me here and there.
We had this young kid in middleschool.
(12:51):
He used to walk up to us withthe Bible and the crazy thing
about it, he's the Church ofChrist.
So it was like a little kid inmiddle school.
He's like, hey, man, do youknow about Jesus?
And he would do this faithfully.
So he wasn't like no, no, coldChristian, he was like a
Christian that was on fire forthe Lord at young, at that age.
(13:12):
So if I'm 15, he must have beenlike 13, 13 years old with the
Bible, preaching the gospel, andI would never forget like he
would like walk up to differentindividuals.
But I knew a little thing or twoabout Jesus, but in my mind I
would say that I'm not ready,and so I used to try to play
with God, you know, cause Idon't know if people do this,
(13:34):
but I'm saying this is what Idid.
I said let me get all the sinout the way, Cause you think
about the do's and don'ts.
I don't care what nobody said,You're going to think about the
do's and don'ts like man.
If I obey the gospel, man, Ican't do this.
(13:58):
I can do this Especially whenyou're young.
Speaker 1 (13:59):
You're like I can't do this.
I can't do it.
Speaker 2 (14:00):
So I say to God internally I'm going to give my
life to you when I'm like 30years old.
Let me get the sense.
So did you think about that?
I'm just saying that.
Did you think about?
Speaker 1 (14:07):
that Absolutely.
I talked to Will about this too.
Speaker 2 (14:12):
I was like well if.
Speaker 1 (14:12):
I'm not ready now.
What about later?
He's like well, yeah, you cando it later, but is that
guaranteed?
And at the age of 16, I wasn'tthinking about it, oh, I didn't
think about that.
Speaker 2 (14:20):
And you don't want to get dark and gloomy, like you
know what happens if I'm notseeing the sun happen.
Speaker 1 (14:31):
It looks at me.
I was like well, what's thebook say?
Now, there's more to it, LikeI'm kind of not not glossing
over it, but these were the thiswas studying, this is called
studying Right.
And um you through that.
(14:51):
But yeah, I absolutely did.
And I mean, I don't know if youremember so, when I this 98 and
after I got baptized, um, youknow, we went to a campfire it
was camping, we did all thisstuff and the song um, the song
by drowning pool called bodieswas out and it was just people
getting hyped up saying let thebodies hit the floor over and,
over and over again but it waslike a thing where everybody
(15:13):
like right it was, soccer washuge at this camp.
Everybody loved soccer andteams.
Speaker 2 (15:16):
Oh, let the bodies hit the floor so I got baptized.
Speaker 1 (15:19):
I'm here, I'm feeling good.
It's like I can't sing thatanymore.
I can't sing bodies hitting thefloor.
I can't see that.
But at the same time, I'mseeing everybody who also was
Christian saying whoa, that's abody.
I'm like, no, no, I can't dothis.
But ultimately I joined in andfor me that was like my first
(15:40):
sin after baptism, which thiswas Wednesday, this was probably
like Thursday, All right, solike a day after.
It was so quick and I'm like, oh, I'm like, oh, I failed him, I
failed him and you know, I kindof I think I don't know if I
told will or I told somebody,and they're just like all right.
Well, I mean, it's a song,you'll be okay, you're kind of
(16:00):
brushing it off.
But like I'm like new andyou're brushing it off and I'm
like I messed up already.
It hasn't even been 24 hoursalready I messed up singing.
You know, let the bodies sit onthe floor when it's not what I
think maybe humans wouldconsider sin right, because
spiritual sin and what the fleshthinks are sin, sin is sin.
(16:20):
But you know, in the humanworld, oh okay, you take that
penny, it's okay, no, it's sinIs that yours?
No, you, take it.
It's called stealing.
So, um, take it, it's calledstealing, so um, so yeah, I mean
.
So that that was my point,right there, right away.
Like for me partaking in thatsong with everybody else, even
outside of christian camp, eventhough these are christians me
(16:41):
coming out of the water to thatwas trying to fight it, I was
like oh and then, and then it'slike the itch like it's gonna be
okay, it's not gonna be so bad.
You know it's like ah, so right,right, that's it's going to be
okay, it's not going to be sobad you know it's like, ah, so
that's a long-winded way ofanswering your question.
Speaker 2 (16:57):
But yeah, no, you're good.
You're good.
We could chop it up, because Ilike how you clarified that
nobody forced you into givingyour life to the Lord.
I think most people, they thinkthey're going to live for a
long time.
They think they're going tolive for a long time.
Even kids, you know young kidsmiddle school, high school you
talk about the gospel.
They sometimes think that theyhave tomorrow.
(17:18):
We know the Bible clearly saysthat we don't have tomorrow.
Tomorrow is a gift.
So even if we make it tomorrow,that's a gift, that's a
blessing, you know.
So I like the fact that youbrought that up, because if
somebody is talking to you aboutthe gospel today, like you
should obey the gospel today.
That very same day, we talkabout Philip in a unit.
He didn't waste any time, right, he didn't waste any time.
(17:40):
So being baptized so young.
You know a young Christianconvicted of the worldly song
that you was listening to, andthen you watching, looking
around other Christians sayingthe same thing, but you had a
conviction in your heart.
So were there any times in yourlife to watch the journey in
(18:02):
your early Christian walk oreven later, where you find
yourself in the wilderness,where God had to try you in your
faith and where you had to growfrom faith to faith.
Could you share a story?
Speaker 1 (18:12):
Yeah, sure.
So, um, this is still inBuffalo.
Um, I'm just going to kind ofget right to it.
The church I was attending wasgoing through a split, okay and,
um, you know it happens all thetime, unfortunately but this
(18:38):
one was pretty bad and reallydivided the people that were at
this building and there was, youknow, side A and side B, and I
stayed with side A, which wasstaying at the building, and
side B went off and eventuallyformed their own congregation.
Now, I stayed because I wasfriends with the minister and my
friends were there.
I knew it was familiar to me,but come to find out later and
by later I don't mean too muchlater because my grandmother, my
(19:00):
dad, kind of got with me andsaid hey, listen, according to
the scriptures this is wrong andI know you like going there,
but this isn't right.
Because my grandmother left, Ican't, I can't, I can't, I
understand.
And then I started kind ofgetting like not in a whirlwind,
but, just kind of like theground shifting beneath me Right
(19:21):
.
Speaker 2 (19:21):
Like oh.
Speaker 1 (19:21):
I'm going to church, I'm doing all this stuff.
I was just baptized, like howis?
Speaker 2 (19:25):
this happening?
How is this?
Speaker 1 (19:26):
happening and I'm still young, I'm only 16 or 17
now at this point, but it stillhappened and yeah, it did.
So I did a little studying withmy dad a little bit, and you
know, I tried to ask theminister at the time questions,
but I just wasn't, honestly, Ijust wasn't strong enough to ask
the right questions and whythey chose what they chose.
(19:47):
So ultimately I left right.
But I left because of what Igot at home and saying hey, this
is what they're saying and thisis what the word says, this is
what the book says, but this iswhat they said.
And if you don't believe me,you know, because back then they
still sent out letters tochurches.
I'm going to still do that now.
It's probably emails, but theysent out letters to other
(20:07):
churches, at least Churches ofChrist, about what's going down,
so you'd know what it is.
And that's like I'm not hidingthat.
That's what people did.
You know more than if you wentfrom one congregation to another
, you had to get a letter of notreference, but like a letter of
something to say, hey, thisperson's coming from my
congregation.
You know, this is what they'vedone, so they can come to your
(20:30):
congregation.
There's a word for it.
I'll follow up with you on that.
But yeah, I mean, this is whathe said in the letter, right?
I was like, wow, okay.
So I wound up leaving and youknow I got a letter from this
church saying, oh man, yeah, youknow, we'd love to have you
back and this and that, but youknow, if it's not the book, it's
(20:51):
not the book.
So I didn't go and that kind ofmessed up my church regularly
going routine I guess, if youwant to call it that where I
wasn't really going to anychurch and at that point all I
had was that Christian camp, soI would look forward to the
(21:11):
Christian camp, and that keptgoing on for a while.
All I had was that Christiancamp, so I would look forward to
the Christian camp, and thatkept going on for a while.
And then I'll just fast forwardto maybe ending high school
college.
I just I just prodigal son,without the money, oh yeah, oh
yeah, without the money, causehe had money, I didn't have the
money.
I just prodigal son.
And when I say prodigal son, Idon't mean like out on the
(21:33):
streets, I just mean like I juststopped going, like entirely.
Just, I just stopped goingentirely.
I was in college, freshman,sophomore, whatever, and I just
wasn't Brother Stephen.
(22:03):
So for the unchurched people,what is a prodigal son?
When you say prodigal son, whatdo you mean?
Could?
you explain that, and that'skind of the attitude I took a
little bit With church.
It's going to be okay, I canpray and I'll be forgiven.
I'll just kind of move on outthere.
So that's what I was operatingunder.
That's what I was operatingunder.
So college, then you went offto college.
(22:28):
Also, I've got to take someaccountability here.
By this time I'm driving.
It was very easy to findanother church of Christ, which
I ultimately did do, but in themeantime I did not.
And what got me, whatreintroduced me back into church
, was the same person who askedme how old are you?
My grandmother, but it was alittle indirect.
She got extremely sick,extremely sick, and there are a
(22:49):
lot of health conditions, a lotof health, this and that, but
she always went to church.
By this time she was with GroupB from that original split that
went to Form your OwnCongregation.
When she got really sick, I waslike I want to go, I'm going to
go and support her and stuff.
I went back to the church A lotsmaller, different building,
(23:12):
but still kind of the same Iwon't say format, but still kind
of what I was used to, beingfamiliar from before and I think
that was like wow, okay, notonly am I supporting you know
her but I'm also like I needsome of this, because now I'm a
little older, I understand alittle bit more and, yeah, that
(23:32):
got me back into it and buff.
Speaker 2 (23:35):
We need more grandmothers like that.
You know, because and thank godthat nothing really crazy
happened to you, like when youhad your prodigal son moment.
You know because sometimespeople don't make it back to the
church or sometimes people havelike crazy stories, they've got
internal illness.
God had to beat me up you knowwhat I mean and ordered me to
(23:57):
get back in fellowship.
Obviously, you know yourgrandmother was in well, but you
know through that circumstanceit got you back in alignment and
even back in fellowship.
Speaker 1 (24:10):
And when I say indirectly because I knew she
was getting ill when it was kindof starting.
But the thing that really gotme and this kind of really, I
think, pricked my heart was,through all her ailments and
everything she was going through, she still found a way to make
it to that building.
It wasn't even like, hey,stephen, you know you should
(24:31):
come to church.
I mean, she probably said somestuff in passing, but what got
me was like how is she stillgoing to church when all this
stuff is happening to her?
She's still making it right.
And it was kind of rough.
This new building was roughconditions.
It was in the neighborhood.
There was no parking, one-waystreets, you know almost
everything.
The devil's putting up allthese barriers to block you to
(24:53):
the building, you know.
And she still made it.
So, um, I was like, yeah, Ineed to get, I need to kind of
get back in, you know, back intothis, back into this.
Speaker 2 (25:04):
So, um, that's, I think, kind of yeah, wow, no,
that's, that's amazing Cause.
Um, that's a testament of herfaith, because that tells me
that you've seen her faith andthat's ultimately led you back
into fellowship.
Because I was going to ask youthis question, I was going to
ask you if there's any biblicalfigures or Bible verses or
(25:24):
Christian figures that haveplayed a crucial role in shaping
your belief.
But, man, if I can, I think Ican answer that for you.
We're going to give a shout outto grandma.
I'm not even going to ask youthat question because you
brought up grandma twice, so I'mgoing to I don't think there's
anybody else that's going tohighlight your grandma, yeah.
Speaker 1 (25:41):
So we called her.
We called her Bunner, grandma'sfine, but like we called her,
like all the the um, hergrandchildren called her Bunner,
but uh, yeah, no, shedefinitely did and it was always
something that, like you know,it was just something about her
Because, like, even, like youknow, we'd be over her house and
she was that old.
You know, she's from Louisiana,right, and so, just like you
(26:05):
see in the movies, where youknow, things are just going
awful just awful, awful, awful.
And you just see a woman sittingdown in a chair just singing
that old hymn.
I don't know what she's singing, but it's singing something.
Speaker 2 (26:19):
It's singing something, yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:22):
And then, you know, I always stuck with me and this
is like throughout my life,right, and it's like man this is
yeah.
So yeah, I mean for sure, mygrandmom is the one who you know
I got a lot of people I loveand you know my dad took care of
me.
He taught you know when it comedown to like paper and pencil,
(26:42):
pencil and or pen and paper, youknow he's like write this down.
You know you need to have some.
You know you need to have someknowledge because even though I
got baptized at that age and Imoved on, I continued life.
You know, if you don't use itand I may use it, I mean like
study it, you kind of lose somestuff and even now today,
there's some things that Iprobably should know, that I
(27:03):
just kind of don't, and when youget caught on it it's like oh.
But then you go back and youread it, it's like oh yeah, I
knew that.
I knew that.
I knew that, but you didn't knowit then and that's okay, that
used to get with me, that usedto get me a lot.
I didn't know something that Ishould have known, or people
said I should have known.
But then one person said to mewell, you know, it is good to
know all this stuff, but noteverybody is necessarily built
(27:25):
to be a preacher or an educator,or you know, that's fact.
It just may not be your.
Just you doing what you do andpeople see your aura.
And then you say you're goingto church on Sunday.
That is maybe what you're herefor, to get somebody else in.
Right, you don't have toexplain the gospel to well.
Let's say explain, but youdon't have to try and capture
(27:53):
everybody.
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