April 28, 2025 • 23 mins
Lord Andrew Roberts reflects on the importance, thorough process, and driving motivation behind the meticulously documented 7 October Parliamentary Commission Report released to the public in March 2025. Be encouraged to read and share this vital historical record, capturing the horrors and atrocities endured by Israelis on October 7, 2023. Discover how the commission was formed, the rigorous methodologies employed to ensure an unassailable preservation of history—including the names of every victim—and how the report has been received both in the UK and internationally.
This document stands as a crucial archive for future generations.
Find the report, updated as needed with new research, at: https://www.7octparliamentarycommission.co.uk/
To learn more about Lord Andrew Roberts and his publications,
go to https://www.andrew-roberts.net/
Visit us at www.cameraspartnership.org to learn more about our work and how we can help you with resources to encourage churches, pastors, and Christians to defend Israel and combat antisemitism wherever it is found. Visit CAMERA.org for the latest news corrections and find links to our Campus, K-12, UK, Spanish, Arabic, and Hebrew departments.
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UNKNOWN (00:00):
Thank you.
SPEAKER_01 (00:13):
This is Amy Zewi with CAMRA's Partnership of
Christians and Jews.
CAMRA stands for the Committeefor Accuracy in Middle East
Reporting and Analysis.
Today we are honored to havejoining us Lord Andrew Roberts.
He is just a distinguished mindthat is a treasure to the world,
(00:33):
the author or editor of over 20books, a scholar, professor, a
sought-after researcher, andjust, again, just a treasure to
the world.
Thank you so much.
(01:13):
about your inspiration andmotivation for even getting into
that desire to commission thisreport and dig into the details
that you dug into.
And we can talk a little bitabout the methodology and how
just rock solid the research isand the feedback that you've
(01:35):
gotten.
So please, let's start a littlebit about learning a little bit
about you and what was yourdesire or motivation for
engaging in this process?
Well, thank
SPEAKER_00 (01:48):
you very much indeed, Amy, for those
tremendously generous remarks.
I feel very honoured andflattered and I am a big
supporter of CAMRA.
I think everything you do is soimportant, especially now,
probably more now than everbefore, I'd say.
The answer is that I was askedby the chairman of the all-party
(02:12):
parliamentary group atWestminster, Lord Mendelsohn,
who recognised that This wasgoing to be a battleground,
frankly, between people who weregoing to try to deny that the
7th of October ever happened andpeople like us, like the rest of
(02:36):
the world, like all reasonablepeople who recognised what a
monstrous atrocity took placethat day.
And so...
When I was asked by him to chairthis report, I immediately said
yes, because I recognised thatin 50 or 100 years time, we're
(02:57):
going to need, at least not weare going to need, but our
descendants are going to need tobe able to put down a plan.
irrefutable collection of factsabout the things that happened
that day, which will be able tofight back against this
denialism, which has alreadystarted, despite the obvious
(03:20):
fact that a lot of the evidencethat we have for what happened
was taken by the perpetratorsthemselves, by the terrorists
themselves on their GoProcameras and so on.
SPEAKER_01 (03:31):
So as you took on this, I wanna say challenge or
project, and I know that the,300 and change page report that
has been issued is subject toupdating on your website.
And I'll share that informationwith our viewers and listeners.
But you also spent a good bit oftime in the beginning of that
(03:54):
document explaining themethodology, the rigor at which
you would include data and theverification of data and the the
chain of custody, so to speak,of the data and the video.
Can you explain to us a littlebit about that process and why
you felt the need to really makesure that was a key focus in the
(04:17):
introductory pages of thatreport?
SPEAKER_00 (04:20):
Oh, very much because we know that denialism
has already begun.
And in fact, it began before themassacres had even ended.
The Palestinian SolidarityCampaign asked the Metropolitan
Police for permission todemonstrate outside the Israeli
embassy at 2.50pm Israeli timeon that Saturday, the 7th of
(04:44):
October.
So whilst the massacres werestill taking place.
And And that wasn't ademonstration.
It was a celebration, frankly,as a lot of the so-called
demonstrations have been since.
And so we recognised that all ofour evidence was going to be
questioned, that there weregoing to be conspiracy theories
(05:06):
that would be put forward, thatit was going to be denounced as
Zionist propaganda and so on.
And sure enough, it has been onthe internet, needless to say.
But we needed to make sure thatwe only used evidence that we
could fully support, you know,from more than one source, that
we only used absolutelyirrefutable evidence.
(05:28):
serious and substantial evidenceand there was a huge amount of
it out there you know of coursethere was because the terrorists
killed 1182 people and so theevidence was there for all to
see the trick was to get it alltogether and present it in a way
that wasn't so foul and gory Imean Obviously, we're talking
(05:53):
about a massive massacre here.
So, of course, in a sense, itwas going to be gory, especially
the ways that the terroristschose to murder their victims,
often with torture and sexualhumiliation and so on.
I don't for a moment say thatthis report is not gruesome, but
frankly, it could have been anawful lot more gruesome if we
(06:15):
had put in things that we knewhappened, but which we weren't
able to double check and verify.
So actually, if anything, thereport almost downplays the true
horror of what happened thatday.
SPEAKER_01 (06:33):
What I truly appreciated about it is that
First of all, you present it ina way that is clearly disclosing
a non-agenda-driven focus, thatthis is the facts, just the
facts, as you can document them.
In addition to that, it alsobecame, to me, very personal,
(06:57):
because as you go through eachchapter or section and you
examine the kibbutzim or nova orthe roads, for example, which
was often neglected in a lot ofthe documentaries, you actually
then include names or names thatwere allowed to be disclosed.
But we got to see personallywith quotes what that reaction
(07:20):
was.
And to your point, are on therecord for those who want to
deny it even happened or denythat civilians were were the
targets or downplay the severityof it?
SPEAKER_00 (07:35):
Yes.
I mean, civilians were thetargets in almost three quarters
of the murders.
So of course, this was intendedto be a massacre of civilians
and innocents and people fromevery country and literally 39
to 40 countries.
(07:57):
And people from as young as 14months all the way up to
somebody who was in their 90s.
I mean, a Holocaust survivor, tomake it even worse, really.
The whole thing was so...
catastrophic, that of course itneeded a serious work of
(08:20):
history, which is how I see thisreport.
It's not, as you say, it's notpolemical in any way.
It's very much a work ofhistory.
And so that's why they chose meas an historian.
There were any number of otherpeople who could have done that
job.
I was very proud to be chosen,needless to say, but I
approached it, and so did myteam, very much as a work of
(08:41):
history.
And that's why I am Come back tothis point about how it's going
to look in 50 or 100 years time.
It's very much written with thepoint of view of history in
mind, because this is ahistorical event.
And I think it's the mostterrible historical event that I
(09:01):
can think of in terms of sheerone day slaughters.
and the way that it was done aswell, the sort of manufactured
blood lusts that was part andparcel of the planning of this
operation.
I can't think of anything likeit since the rape of Nanjing in
(09:21):
1937 and 38.
SPEAKER_01 (09:25):
I mean, it's just, it was so meticulously done as
far as, I mean, if any of you,of viewers or listeners can get
a hold of that PDF, the amountof documentation, the footnotes,
the checking and thecross-checking, and I have to
say thank you for also includingsome of the cameras research was
cited in there as well.
(09:46):
So shout out to our researchersthere being able to offer
information.
SPEAKER_00 (09:51):
Well, and thank you to them, obviously.
That's one of the reasons that Istarted this by saying that I'm
very much an admirer of yourwork.
SPEAKER_01 (10:01):
So as we, one of the things I
SPEAKER_00 (10:03):
do have to say.
Oh, sorry.
One other thing that youmentioned that I want to make
sure that I don't forget tomention was when you so rightly
said that we mentioned the namesof all the people who were
killed.
Because in these great andterrible times, events
historically, moments like 9-11or Pearl Harbor or any of these
(10:29):
other things where a largenumber of people die in one day,
you very often don't get anindividual What's the best way
of putting this?
A memorialization of theindividuals.
You get the memorialization ofthe event, but not the actual
(10:52):
people themselves.
And so I thought it wastremendously important.
And obviously, we use the Bookof the Dead at Yad Vashem as a
template, as a shining exampleof the best of all of this.
to try to remind everybody aboutthe personal side of this, what
(11:13):
is also obviously a historicalevent.
SPEAKER_01 (11:17):
Yeah, so there was this historical event that you
felt the need, rightly so, to...
to document for posterity, forhistory, but at the same time in
those numbers, those seeminglyunfathomable numbers that each
one was a name.
It was a person, somebody'sdaughter, husband, brother,
friend.
(11:37):
It's just, they were people.
And I found that quite moving.
And
SPEAKER_00 (11:42):
that's why they are all named.
That was tremendously importantto us when we were writing it to
make sure everybody was named.
SPEAKER_01 (11:53):
Yes.
And it just was very moving.
And the other thing that wassurprising to me, as someone
who's been following thisclosely since the night of or
morning of October 8th, I didnot, you have some excellent
charts documenting like theterrorists and their different
organizations or suborganizations.
(12:13):
And I didn't realize it wasalmost a 7,000 people.
people, when you think about,you document this in the report,
I encourage everyone to go lookat it, but you also document the
number of civilians, of Gazancivilians, including, you know,
men or women and the lootingthat when you have photographs
(12:34):
and documenting.
And I think that is a surprisingbit of information to many
people.
many people and certainly notanything that was covered in our
mainstream media.
Did you find anythingparticularly surprising as you
were going through this one yearlong January 24 to January 25, I
(12:55):
think was the research periodinitially?
Oh,
SPEAKER_00 (12:59):
yes, yes, plenty.
And actually, that was one ofthem.
The number of differentterrorist groups under the Hamas
umbrella is interesting.
We identify seven.
But also, as you say, the factthat well over a thousand just
ordinary Palestinian civilianstook the opportunity to cross
(13:21):
over into southern Israel andcommit repulsive crimes.
degrading, just monstrouscrimes.
They leapt at the opportunitywhen they saw it.
And that was...
quite shocking to me really ithink also the other thing um
(13:44):
really was the this sense thatthe the blood lust was not
something that just came as aresult of um of the situation
which has happened historicallysince the middle middle ages you
know and earlier you you youhave uh people in combat just
(14:05):
completely losing it and tryingto kill as many people as
possible and so on.
That's not unknown.
What's much more rarehistorically is for that
bloodlust to be entirelyartificially created by the
people who were planning andplotting the attack.
That's a as I say, an unusualthing in history.
(14:29):
And obviously, it speaks to theappalling cynicism of the
perpetrators.
SPEAKER_01 (14:37):
If I had my way, Lord Roberts, I would have this
document be required reading onevery college campus wherein
there was an encampment or somesort of Hamas sympathizing, to
say the least, challenge or Justthe garbage we're seeing on
(14:59):
college campuses.
I wish this could be issued asrequired reading in the Middle
East studies departments.
It's just so valuable.
Tell me, have you gotten anyinvitations to college campuses
to have then like a debate onthe situation, a debate on the
Israel-Gaza war?
Has anybody offered anopportunity for you to have an
(15:21):
intelligent academicconversation?
No
SPEAKER_00 (15:25):
one.
Not one.
And let me just go further.
I also have been interviewed bypeople about this report in
Denmark, in Germany, inAustralia, in Israel, of course,
in Britain, in America, Godknows how many other places as
(15:47):
well, but not by the BBC.
They've taken no interest in itwhatsoever.
It's been entirely ignored.
They had a copy.
At the moment it was published,they were invited to the launch
and so on.
Absolutely no interest from themwhatsoever, even though this is
not just me.
This is an all-partyparliamentary group.
(16:07):
We have people from all of theparties as part of the group,
not the Islamist parties, ofcourse.
They Wouldn't want to joinanyhow.
But frankly, it is prettyextraordinary to think that this
report was published on the 18thof March.
And we're now well into Apriland not a peep from our national
(16:33):
broadcasting corporation inBritain.
SPEAKER_01 (16:36):
And no invitations to colleges to have a cogent,
reasonable discussion on thetopic either.
SPEAKER_00 (16:42):
I'm sorry, with the ten to father now in most of our
universities, including ourabsolute top elite universities.
We've got beyond the stage wherethey're in the slightest bit
interested in cogent,intelligent, intellectual
discussion.
The problem is now, Amy, andit's obviously true also in the
(17:03):
United States as well andelsewhere, is that.
When you do have these kinds ofarguments, they lose, which is
why they don't want thearguments.
And so instead, screaming andyelling and shouting and setting
up tents and boycotting and soon is the way that they have
recognized, probably rightly,that that's how their message
(17:23):
gets across.
You know, in a 13-second meme onTikTok, they're going to be able
to make more conversions than ina hours debate at the Oxford or
Cambridge Indian Society.
It's the way the world isworking.
It's something that obviouslyintelligent, thoughtful and
(17:46):
educated people must decry.
But what can we do about it?
SPEAKER_01 (17:52):
No, I know.
And one of the other thingsabout your report that I
particularly appreciated as amember of the UK and this
report, your initial audience,it What you're sharing with them
is what happened to the Britishcitizens.
You make it a point to insert inthe timeline or in the different
(18:13):
examinations of the Kibbutzim orNova, who was a compatriot,
right?
SPEAKER_00 (18:19):
Yes, we lost 18 kills, which was the largest
number of Britons to die in aterrorist attack since 9-11.
And so it strikes me that thatin itself puts tremendous
pressure or should put on theBritish government to want to
(18:39):
see the perpetrators brought tojustice.
Instead, we have a governmentwhich is putting sanctions on
the Israeli government in thatthey don't allow its prime
minister to come to Britainwithout being arrested, they
say.
There are certain arms they'renot selling to the Israeli
(19:02):
government because they say thatthey might be used in war
crimes, even though they haven'tactually accused Israel of war
crimes.
The way I'm afraid the presentBritish government is behaving
towards Israel, and I'm speakingnow entirely as an individual,
(19:23):
not on behalf of the APPG,because of course that does
include Labour Party members whowill disagree with me on this,
and so I'm not in any wayspeaking with with the
imprimatur of the all-partyparliamentary group.
But just as a private individualand as a peer, a member of the
upper house of the BritishParliament, I think it's a
(19:45):
disgrace.
SPEAKER_01 (19:47):
And to your point, documenting those 18 individuals
As part of the report, asclearly focused or highlighted
in the report, you would thinkthat in and of itself would spur
the media, BBC and the like, theother mainstreams in the UK, to
really want to highlight thisbecause these are your
(20:10):
compatriots.
These are your citizens.
Well,
SPEAKER_00 (20:14):
exactly.
And as I say, apart from theBBC, we have had a tremendously
positive response from theBritish media, as well as all
over the world.
And we've also had, I mean, I'vehad a very positive response
walking around the corridors ofthe House of Lords, you know,
the number of people who've comeup to me and said, thank you for
(20:34):
this.
Well done.
I've read it.
It's devastating, obviously, hasbeen very cheering.
So as far as I'm concerned, it'sbeen a very positive response.
As far as that side of things isconcerned, I think it's
hopefully done some good.
SPEAKER_01 (20:49):
And we on our end here at CAMRA on the North
America side of the pond, wecertainly want to encourage the
proliferation of this report toget into people's hands so that
they can read through it, evenif you take it in pieces because
it's a large document, to checkthe website because you will
update things as new
SPEAKER_00 (21:09):
information comes.
Yes, that's a very importantaspect.
And I'm so pleased you mentionedthat, Amy.
Thank you.
This is an ongoing process.
So when we get more informationand If we need to change
information that we've got, ofcourse, it's very much an
evidence-driven project.
So when we get more informationabout anything that's cogent, we
(21:34):
will absolutely be updating thewebsite and the report.
SPEAKER_01 (21:42):
well, this is just very much a gift to the world,
certainly to the UK and to theworld to have this historical
document that is just soindisputably completed.
I mean, like you said, you'renot getting invited to debate
things because how could anyonedebate the facts that you so
(22:03):
well documented?
And that's why I think it shouldbe required reading on all
college campuses.
But, and I'm glad we're able
SPEAKER_00 (22:10):
to- That'll be the day.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (22:12):
And we just really, really appreciate it.
What is next for you?
Do you have any new projectsupcoming that we should be aware
of?
SPEAKER_00 (22:21):
Sweet, if you know, I'm going to go back to my
normal job as a historian.
I'm writing.
I'm here in Paris at the moment,and I'm researching a book
called Napoleon and HisMarshals.
So I'm going back from the gory21st century to the, I'm afraid,
equally gory 18th and early 19thcenturies.
UNKNOWN (22:42):
Thank you.
SPEAKER_01 (22:43):
Well, we'll keep after your work and follow you.
We'll be sharing your links sofolks can look you up and look
at your other historical booksas well.
And we thank you again for yourgenerous amount of time with us
and sharing this experience ofsharing this and what you found
and allowing us to share it withour greater network.
And just thank you so much forall you're doing.
SPEAKER_00 (23:05):
Well, thank you, Amy, and keep up the great work
with Canberra.
SPEAKER_01 (23:09):
Thank you.
Thank you.
UNKNOWN (23:12):
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
SPEAKER_01 (00:13):
This is Amy Zewi with CAMRA's Partnership of
Christians and Jews.
CAMRA stands for the Committeefor Accuracy in Middle East
Reporting and Analysis.
Today we are honored to havejoining us Lord Andrew Roberts.
He is just a distinguished mindthat is a treasure to the world,
(00:33):
the author or editor of over 20books, a scholar, professor, a
sought-after researcher, andjust, again, just a treasure to
the world.
Thank you so much.
(01:13):
about your inspiration andmotivation for even getting into
that desire to commission thisreport and dig into the details
that you dug into.
And we can talk a little bitabout the methodology and how
just rock solid the research isand the feedback that you've
(01:35):
gotten.
So please, let's start a littlebit about learning a little bit
about you and what was yourdesire or motivation for
engaging in this process?
Well, thank
SPEAKER_00 (01:48):
you very much indeed, Amy, for those
tremendously generous remarks.
I feel very honoured andflattered and I am a big
supporter of CAMRA.
I think everything you do is soimportant, especially now,
probably more now than everbefore, I'd say.
The answer is that I was askedby the chairman of the all-party
(02:12):
parliamentary group atWestminster, Lord Mendelsohn,
who recognised that This wasgoing to be a battleground,
frankly, between people who weregoing to try to deny that the
7th of October ever happened andpeople like us, like the rest of
(02:36):
the world, like all reasonablepeople who recognised what a
monstrous atrocity took placethat day.
And so...
When I was asked by him to chairthis report, I immediately said
yes, because I recognised thatin 50 or 100 years time, we're
(02:57):
going to need, at least not weare going to need, but our
descendants are going to need tobe able to put down a plan.
irrefutable collection of factsabout the things that happened
that day, which will be able tofight back against this
denialism, which has alreadystarted, despite the obvious
(03:20):
fact that a lot of the evidencethat we have for what happened
was taken by the perpetratorsthemselves, by the terrorists
themselves on their GoProcameras and so on.
SPEAKER_01 (03:31):
So as you took on this, I wanna say challenge or
project, and I know that the,300 and change page report that
has been issued is subject toupdating on your website.
And I'll share that informationwith our viewers and listeners.
But you also spent a good bit oftime in the beginning of that
(03:54):
document explaining themethodology, the rigor at which
you would include data and theverification of data and the the
chain of custody, so to speak,of the data and the video.
Can you explain to us a littlebit about that process and why
you felt the need to really makesure that was a key focus in the
(04:17):
introductory pages of thatreport?
SPEAKER_00 (04:20):
Oh, very much because we know that denialism
has already begun.
And in fact, it began before themassacres had even ended.
The Palestinian SolidarityCampaign asked the Metropolitan
Police for permission todemonstrate outside the Israeli
embassy at 2.50pm Israeli timeon that Saturday, the 7th of
(04:44):
October.
So whilst the massacres werestill taking place.
And And that wasn't ademonstration.
It was a celebration, frankly,as a lot of the so-called
demonstrations have been since.
And so we recognised that all ofour evidence was going to be
questioned, that there weregoing to be conspiracy theories
(05:06):
that would be put forward, thatit was going to be denounced as
Zionist propaganda and so on.
And sure enough, it has been onthe internet, needless to say.
But we needed to make sure thatwe only used evidence that we
could fully support, you know,from more than one source, that
we only used absolutelyirrefutable evidence.
(05:28):
serious and substantial evidenceand there was a huge amount of
it out there you know of coursethere was because the terrorists
killed 1182 people and so theevidence was there for all to
see the trick was to get it alltogether and present it in a way
that wasn't so foul and gory Imean Obviously, we're talking
(05:53):
about a massive massacre here.
So, of course, in a sense, itwas going to be gory, especially
the ways that the terroristschose to murder their victims,
often with torture and sexualhumiliation and so on.
I don't for a moment say thatthis report is not gruesome, but
frankly, it could have been anawful lot more gruesome if we
(06:15):
had put in things that we knewhappened, but which we weren't
able to double check and verify.
So actually, if anything, thereport almost downplays the true
horror of what happened thatday.
SPEAKER_01 (06:33):
What I truly appreciated about it is that
First of all, you present it ina way that is clearly disclosing
a non-agenda-driven focus, thatthis is the facts, just the
facts, as you can document them.
In addition to that, it alsobecame, to me, very personal,
(06:57):
because as you go through eachchapter or section and you
examine the kibbutzim or nova orthe roads, for example, which
was often neglected in a lot ofthe documentaries, you actually
then include names or names thatwere allowed to be disclosed.
But we got to see personallywith quotes what that reaction
(07:20):
was.
And to your point, are on therecord for those who want to
deny it even happened or denythat civilians were were the
targets or downplay the severityof it?
SPEAKER_00 (07:35):
Yes.
I mean, civilians were thetargets in almost three quarters
of the murders.
So of course, this was intendedto be a massacre of civilians
and innocents and people fromevery country and literally 39
to 40 countries.
(07:57):
And people from as young as 14months all the way up to
somebody who was in their 90s.
I mean, a Holocaust survivor, tomake it even worse, really.
The whole thing was so...
catastrophic, that of course itneeded a serious work of
(08:20):
history, which is how I see thisreport.
It's not, as you say, it's notpolemical in any way.
It's very much a work ofhistory.
And so that's why they chose meas an historian.
There were any number of otherpeople who could have done that
job.
I was very proud to be chosen,needless to say, but I
approached it, and so did myteam, very much as a work of
(08:41):
history.
And that's why I am Come back tothis point about how it's going
to look in 50 or 100 years time.
It's very much written with thepoint of view of history in
mind, because this is ahistorical event.
And I think it's the mostterrible historical event that I
(09:01):
can think of in terms of sheerone day slaughters.
and the way that it was done aswell, the sort of manufactured
blood lusts that was part andparcel of the planning of this
operation.
I can't think of anything likeit since the rape of Nanjing in
(09:21):
1937 and 38.
SPEAKER_01 (09:25):
I mean, it's just, it was so meticulously done as
far as, I mean, if any of you,of viewers or listeners can get
a hold of that PDF, the amountof documentation, the footnotes,
the checking and thecross-checking, and I have to
say thank you for also includingsome of the cameras research was
cited in there as well.
(09:46):
So shout out to our researchersthere being able to offer
information.
SPEAKER_00 (09:51):
Well, and thank you to them, obviously.
That's one of the reasons that Istarted this by saying that I'm
very much an admirer of yourwork.
SPEAKER_01 (10:01):
So as we, one of the things I
SPEAKER_00 (10:03):
do have to say.
Oh, sorry.
One other thing that youmentioned that I want to make
sure that I don't forget tomention was when you so rightly
said that we mentioned the namesof all the people who were
killed.
Because in these great andterrible times, events
historically, moments like 9-11or Pearl Harbor or any of these
(10:29):
other things where a largenumber of people die in one day,
you very often don't get anindividual What's the best way
of putting this?
A memorialization of theindividuals.
You get the memorialization ofthe event, but not the actual
(10:52):
people themselves.
And so I thought it wastremendously important.
And obviously, we use the Bookof the Dead at Yad Vashem as a
template, as a shining exampleof the best of all of this.
to try to remind everybody aboutthe personal side of this, what
(11:13):
is also obviously a historicalevent.
SPEAKER_01 (11:17):
Yeah, so there was this historical event that you
felt the need, rightly so, to...
to document for posterity, forhistory, but at the same time in
those numbers, those seeminglyunfathomable numbers that each
one was a name.
It was a person, somebody'sdaughter, husband, brother,
friend.
(11:37):
It's just, they were people.
And I found that quite moving.
And
SPEAKER_00 (11:42):
that's why they are all named.
That was tremendously importantto us when we were writing it to
make sure everybody was named.
SPEAKER_01 (11:53):
Yes.
And it just was very moving.
And the other thing that wassurprising to me, as someone
who's been following thisclosely since the night of or
morning of October 8th, I didnot, you have some excellent
charts documenting like theterrorists and their different
organizations or suborganizations.
(12:13):
And I didn't realize it wasalmost a 7,000 people.
people, when you think about,you document this in the report,
I encourage everyone to go lookat it, but you also document the
number of civilians, of Gazancivilians, including, you know,
men or women and the lootingthat when you have photographs
(12:34):
and documenting.
And I think that is a surprisingbit of information to many
people.
many people and certainly notanything that was covered in our
mainstream media.
Did you find anythingparticularly surprising as you
were going through this one yearlong January 24 to January 25, I
(12:55):
think was the research periodinitially?
Oh,
SPEAKER_00 (12:59):
yes, yes, plenty.
And actually, that was one ofthem.
The number of differentterrorist groups under the Hamas
umbrella is interesting.
We identify seven.
But also, as you say, the factthat well over a thousand just
ordinary Palestinian civilianstook the opportunity to cross
(13:21):
over into southern Israel andcommit repulsive crimes.
degrading, just monstrouscrimes.
They leapt at the opportunitywhen they saw it.
And that was...
quite shocking to me really ithink also the other thing um
(13:44):
really was the this sense thatthe the blood lust was not
something that just came as aresult of um of the situation
which has happened historicallysince the middle middle ages you
know and earlier you you youhave uh people in combat just
(14:05):
completely losing it and tryingto kill as many people as
possible and so on.
That's not unknown.
What's much more rarehistorically is for that
bloodlust to be entirelyartificially created by the
people who were planning andplotting the attack.
That's a as I say, an unusualthing in history.
(14:29):
And obviously, it speaks to theappalling cynicism of the
perpetrators.
SPEAKER_01 (14:37):
If I had my way, Lord Roberts, I would have this
document be required reading onevery college campus wherein
there was an encampment or somesort of Hamas sympathizing, to
say the least, challenge or Justthe garbage we're seeing on
(14:59):
college campuses.
I wish this could be issued asrequired reading in the Middle
East studies departments.
It's just so valuable.
Tell me, have you gotten anyinvitations to college campuses
to have then like a debate onthe situation, a debate on the
Israel-Gaza war?
Has anybody offered anopportunity for you to have an
(15:21):
intelligent academicconversation?
No
SPEAKER_00 (15:25):
one.
Not one.
And let me just go further.
I also have been interviewed bypeople about this report in
Denmark, in Germany, inAustralia, in Israel, of course,
in Britain, in America, Godknows how many other places as
(15:47):
well, but not by the BBC.
They've taken no interest in itwhatsoever.
It's been entirely ignored.
They had a copy.
At the moment it was published,they were invited to the launch
and so on.
Absolutely no interest from themwhatsoever, even though this is
not just me.
This is an all-partyparliamentary group.
(16:07):
We have people from all of theparties as part of the group,
not the Islamist parties, ofcourse.
They Wouldn't want to joinanyhow.
But frankly, it is prettyextraordinary to think that this
report was published on the 18thof March.
And we're now well into Apriland not a peep from our national
(16:33):
broadcasting corporation inBritain.
SPEAKER_01 (16:36):
And no invitations to colleges to have a cogent,
reasonable discussion on thetopic either.
SPEAKER_00 (16:42):
I'm sorry, with the ten to father now in most of our
universities, including ourabsolute top elite universities.
We've got beyond the stage wherethey're in the slightest bit
interested in cogent,intelligent, intellectual
discussion.
The problem is now, Amy, andit's obviously true also in the
(17:03):
United States as well andelsewhere, is that.
When you do have these kinds ofarguments, they lose, which is
why they don't want thearguments.
And so instead, screaming andyelling and shouting and setting
up tents and boycotting and soon is the way that they have
recognized, probably rightly,that that's how their message
(17:23):
gets across.
You know, in a 13-second meme onTikTok, they're going to be able
to make more conversions than ina hours debate at the Oxford or
Cambridge Indian Society.
It's the way the world isworking.
It's something that obviouslyintelligent, thoughtful and
(17:46):
educated people must decry.
But what can we do about it?
SPEAKER_01 (17:52):
No, I know.
And one of the other thingsabout your report that I
particularly appreciated as amember of the UK and this
report, your initial audience,it What you're sharing with them
is what happened to the Britishcitizens.
You make it a point to insert inthe timeline or in the different
(18:13):
examinations of the Kibbutzim orNova, who was a compatriot,
right?
SPEAKER_00 (18:19):
Yes, we lost 18 kills, which was the largest
number of Britons to die in aterrorist attack since 9-11.
And so it strikes me that thatin itself puts tremendous
pressure or should put on theBritish government to want to
(18:39):
see the perpetrators brought tojustice.
Instead, we have a governmentwhich is putting sanctions on
the Israeli government in thatthey don't allow its prime
minister to come to Britainwithout being arrested, they
say.
There are certain arms they'renot selling to the Israeli
(19:02):
government because they say thatthey might be used in war
crimes, even though they haven'tactually accused Israel of war
crimes.
The way I'm afraid the presentBritish government is behaving
towards Israel, and I'm speakingnow entirely as an individual,
(19:23):
not on behalf of the APPG,because of course that does
include Labour Party members whowill disagree with me on this,
and so I'm not in any wayspeaking with with the
imprimatur of the all-partyparliamentary group.
But just as a private individualand as a peer, a member of the
upper house of the BritishParliament, I think it's a
(19:45):
disgrace.
SPEAKER_01 (19:47):
And to your point, documenting those 18 individuals
As part of the report, asclearly focused or highlighted
in the report, you would thinkthat in and of itself would spur
the media, BBC and the like, theother mainstreams in the UK, to
really want to highlight thisbecause these are your
(20:10):
compatriots.
These are your citizens.
Well,
SPEAKER_00 (20:14):
exactly.
And as I say, apart from theBBC, we have had a tremendously
positive response from theBritish media, as well as all
over the world.
And we've also had, I mean, I'vehad a very positive response
walking around the corridors ofthe House of Lords, you know,
the number of people who've comeup to me and said, thank you for
(20:34):
this.
Well done.
I've read it.
It's devastating, obviously, hasbeen very cheering.
So as far as I'm concerned, it'sbeen a very positive response.
As far as that side of things isconcerned, I think it's
hopefully done some good.
SPEAKER_01 (20:49):
And we on our end here at CAMRA on the North
America side of the pond, wecertainly want to encourage the
proliferation of this report toget into people's hands so that
they can read through it, evenif you take it in pieces because
it's a large document, to checkthe website because you will
update things as new
SPEAKER_00 (21:09):
information comes.
Yes, that's a very importantaspect.
And I'm so pleased you mentionedthat, Amy.
Thank you.
This is an ongoing process.
So when we get more informationand If we need to change
information that we've got, ofcourse, it's very much an
evidence-driven project.
So when we get more informationabout anything that's cogent, we
(21:34):
will absolutely be updating thewebsite and the report.
SPEAKER_01 (21:42):
well, this is just very much a gift to the world,
certainly to the UK and to theworld to have this historical
document that is just soindisputably completed.
I mean, like you said, you'renot getting invited to debate
things because how could anyonedebate the facts that you so
(22:03):
well documented?
And that's why I think it shouldbe required reading on all
college campuses.
But, and I'm glad we're able
SPEAKER_00 (22:10):
to- That'll be the day.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (22:12):
And we just really, really appreciate it.
What is next for you?
Do you have any new projectsupcoming that we should be aware
of?
SPEAKER_00 (22:21):
Sweet, if you know, I'm going to go back to my
normal job as a historian.
I'm writing.
I'm here in Paris at the moment,and I'm researching a book
called Napoleon and HisMarshals.
So I'm going back from the gory21st century to the, I'm afraid,
equally gory 18th and early 19thcenturies.
UNKNOWN (22:42):
Thank you.
SPEAKER_01 (22:43):
Well, we'll keep after your work and follow you.
We'll be sharing your links sofolks can look you up and look
at your other historical booksas well.
And we thank you again for yourgenerous amount of time with us
and sharing this experience ofsharing this and what you found
and allowing us to share it withour greater network.
And just thank you so much forall you're doing.
SPEAKER_00 (23:05):
Well, thank you, Amy, and keep up the great work
with Canberra.
SPEAKER_01 (23:09):
Thank you.
Thank you.
UNKNOWN (23:12):
Thank you.
Thank you.
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