Jaymee and Lacee: Empowering Lives through Spiritual Growth & Relationship Wisdom

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Lindsey (00:13):
Yeah.
You know who my dream likepodcast guests are?
Yeah.
KRS One.
No, like, KRS One, Primo.
I

Britt (00:26):
actually just sent Jamie, uh, the Mortgage Free

Lindsey (00:29):
song.
Oh, cool.
I was going to say, I was goingto say Tony, 2 Chainz.
Yeah.
Um, Paula Abdul, John from NewKids on the Block.
Fife, R.
I.
P.
I'd talk, I'd talk to Q Tip.
That would be tight.
Oh, yeah.
Absolutely.
I'd talk to Nas.
That would be tight.

(00:49):
Mm hmm.
Color Me Bad would be cool.
I actually saw, if they're likeperforming, there's one of those
things somewhere.
I must have seen it on the wayto Joshua Tree.
There was like one of those 90stour things, and it was Color Me
Bad.
But who
was

Britt (01:03):
in Color Me Bad that ended up being?

Lindsey (01:05):
Oh, literally no one.
Oh, really?
Like, they're all available.

Jaymee (01:09):
Oh.

Lindsey (01:11):
You might be removed.
You know what?
Gosh, the person in Color Me Badthat I liked, so inappropriate.
I was like eight years old.
Why did I have a crush on grownmen?
I don't know.
Uh, with the guy with the curlyhair, and he is not a
transcript.
Kenny G lookin ass dude.
He's a Kenny G lookin ass dude.
Yeah.

Lacee (01:29):
Ooh, I can't even tell you.
Huh.
And I'm

Lindsey (01:32):
bald.
So.
Yeah.
That's a change.
I know.
I think about it every day.
I picture you.
That's why I'm always puttingthat curly wig on you, giving
you a flute and a silk shirt.
I don't think he had a flute.
He didn't have a flute, but he'sa Kenny G looking ass
motherfucker.
He doesn't have a flute either.
What does he play?

Britt (01:52):
He plays a flute looking ass saxophone.

Lindsey (01:55):
Oh, got it, got it, got it.
Soprano.
I thought he played a clarinetor something.

Britt (02:00):
It's not as cool as a clarinet.
Saxophones are cool, right?
Saxophones are the coolest.
Yeah, they're the coolest.
Even when they're straight.
Oh, I see.
Yeah, okay.
They're pretty cool.
Yeah.
Anyway, welcome to the can westart over podcast?

Lindsey (02:16):
My name is Brit And hey, y'all, I'm Lindsay.
We're so glad you're here.
Thanks for being with us.
Thanks for listening to usramble on about whatever
nonsense.
Thanks for listening.
Thanks for being here.
Please rate and review thepodcast on wherever you listen
to podcasts.
And then why not share thisepisode with a friend.
All those little steps so simplefor you and they help us so much

(02:40):
and hopefully You're gettingsomething valuable, or at least
laughing at our nonsense.
My ego

Britt (02:47):
wants everyone to hear this, so please put it out
there.
Send it worldwide.
Tickle

Lindsey (02:51):
my ego.
Didn't you hear we're trying toget Nas on?
We're trying to get Phife DawgR.
I.
P.
on this pod.
And

Britt (02:59):
not that you're not

Jaymee (03:00):
enough.

Britt (03:01):
A lot more would really help listener wise, so.

Lindsey (03:05):
And we love doing it, and so we want to continue to do
it.
When you share it, when you likeit, when you throw up that
rating and review, it superhelps us.
Also, follow us on Instagram.
You can find the podcast atCanWeStartOverPod.
We share all about the newestepisodes coming out.
Follow me on Instagram.
It's lindsayakey.

(03:25):
That's where you'll see metalking about the things I talk
about.

Britt (03:30):
Five

Lindsey (03:30):
Dog, mostly.
It's a little bit, it's likefour parts Five Dog, one part...
Body Wisdom, and then one partkids running around.
Body

Britt (03:39):
Wisdom, now who are they?
Is that a hot

Lindsey (03:41):
new rapper?
Body Wisdom was on tour withColor Me Bad.
Sick.
In 1994, but then they had tostop.
So now they live in Duluth, andthey have a, an auto shop, and
they named it Body Wisdom.
Oh, man.

Britt (03:56):
Yeah.
That's great.
I'd love to see their artwork.
I'd love to see that

Lindsey (03:59):
billboard.
Hey, I don't follow you onInstagram.
What are you on Instagram?
Oh,

Britt (04:03):
it's j.
brit underscore roboshow.
I'm not gonna spell it for you.
You just have to figure it out.
You

Lindsey (04:09):
can find all this in the show notes, too.
So, click em, link em, like em,love em.
What do you share on Instagram?

Britt (04:15):
I share photographs of the things I take pictures of
because I'm a photographer andan audio engineer, baby.
I'm a record producer and I donot have a ponytail.
Wish I did, but I don't.

Lindsey (04:28):
You could have a ponytail.
For anyone who is listening tothis, which is everyone that's
listening to this, This is anaudio only podcast, which maybe
you're already fucking bored bythat.
Because now everyone wants avideo podcast, but, Britt's
bald.
And I, I didn't want y'all toknow that.
Obviously

Britt (04:46):
you do.

Lindsey (04:49):
I did want you to know it.
I don't care.
Maybe Britt didn't want you toknow it, but he doesn't have a
ponytail.
He doesn't have curly hair.
He has...

Britt (04:56):
Zero hair.
Um, but that's fine.
I'm not worried about it.
I've been living this way sinceI was 19, so...

Lindsey (05:03):
And really, when you were a baby, too.
And when I was a baby, yeah.
So most of your life you've beenbald.
Right.
Am I

Britt (05:08):
dying?
Am I about to die?
I

Lindsey (05:10):
mean, I know I'm dying, but am I No, absolutely not.
Bald people live a long time.
Oh, thank God.
Romtos was bald.
Oh,

Britt (05:16):
you're right.
Thank God.
He was 88, right?

Lindsey (05:19):
Yeah.
Maharaji was bald.
That's true.

Britt (05:22):
And he was eternal.

Lindsey (05:23):
Yeah, Kenny G was not bald, though.
And is not, I don't think,actually, I'm not sure.
And the guy from Color My Dadalso, I guarantee you, is still
not bald.
He has great hair, even though Iguess those things don't

Britt (05:34):
really relate.

Lindsey (05:36):
Okay, thank God.
Basically, the answer is younever know how it's gonna turn
out.
That brings us to our interviewtoday.
Which is the perfect follow upto last week's episode.
If you haven't listened to ourepisode from last week, where
Britt and I talk about what it'slike to be married for 16 years.
Listen to it.
And this week is the perfectfollow up because we talk to our

(05:56):
friends and a couple that livehere in Ojai, Jamie Carpenter
and Lacey Delmore.
They are a couple who are trulycommitted to walking the
relationship and spiritual pathwith awareness and integrity.
They're super cool.
We first came to know about themthrough their

Britt (06:15):
podcast Love is the

Lindsey (06:16):
Author and also on Jamie's previous podcast
Mystical Cynical, so we alreadyknew who they were we were
already like feeling like weliked them and then

Britt (06:29):
And then I went to a public meditation that Jamie was
leading in a park.
What

Lindsey (06:35):
happened there?
What It was

Britt (06:36):
fantastic.
There was a big group of peoplethat met there.
Some of them knew each other,some of them didn't.
And we all told our deepest,darkest secrets.
We cried, we laughed, we hugged.
It

Lindsey (06:47):
was wonderful.
Is like exactly what you neededcoming back from a long trip and
landing here.
It was.

Britt (06:53):
Yeah, it was great.
It was, because one of our, ourmain things when we were going
to find a place to live was wehave to find some sort of
community, people that are intosome weird shit that we're into,
you know, we found them.
It was perfect.

Lindsey (07:08):
Opened right up.
Yeah.
I'll say my experience is, yeah,we just, I felt this kind of
like instant connection withthem where that feeling where it
just feels at home with someone,even though they're new, like.
You know you're supposed to knowthem.
And it feels totally natural.
They're so welcoming, they'rekind.
They're also cool and funny.

(07:29):
Which is so important whenyou're looking for a spiritual
community that it's like notstuffy.
That it's still fun and They'reartists, they're musicians.
We just have so many things incommon with them, so we knew we
needed to have them on thepodcast.
They're super cool people onevery level, and as a couple and
as partners, they both haveprivate practices that offer

(07:52):
psycho spiritual mentorship,helping people navigate their
circumstances throughintegration of a well balanced
psychological and spiritualperspective.
Once you hear this episode,you're probably going to be
like, I want to work with them.
So make sure you follow them onInstagram at love is the author,
or Lacey can be found atunconventional gardener.

(08:16):
And also you have to listen totheir podcast, which is also
called love is the author.
And while we're all heretogether, I want to make sure
that everyone knows about myupcoming online workshop,
touching into creativity.
Space is now open.
I want to make sure everyonethat wants a seat can get one.
Join me on October 19th for atransformative two hour

(08:38):
experience that promises todissolve those pesky blocks to
creativity and really get yourcreative juices flowing.
We'll dive into some somaticmovement, some inner inquiry,
and...
Create a connection with yourguides, with your source, so
that creativity can flow.

(09:00):
And don't worry, it's not ascomplicated as it sounds.
You're going to learn how toconnect with your body, with
your senses, call in thosepersonal muses and guides, and
tap into that magical source ofcreativity.
What I found from years ofpractice is that really tuning
in to the felt sense ofexperience gets that creative

(09:24):
juice really going.
Once you learn how to do it,it's amazing and you can start
having a creative practice thatis just your entire life.
Like I mentioned, This is allhappening online, so you don't
even have to get dressed orleave the comfort of your own
creative sanctuary.
It's only 45, which is less thanthe price of a fancy dinner.

(09:47):
But with way more creativenourishment and something that
you can take and cultivate andgrow beyond the two hours that
we'll be together.
So don't miss the chance toconnect with your inner
creativity and find your flow.
Join me for this evening oftransformation, connection, and
maybe you'll even find a fewawkward dance moves.
If you can't make it live, thereis a replay available, so

(10:10):
there's really no reason for youto not be a part of this.
Who knows, you might just meetyour community of creative
seekers and embark on a journeyof self discovery together.
If you're ready to unleash yourcreativity, reserve your spot
now before it's too late.
I promise it will be worth it.
Let's dissolve those blocks,move together, laugh together,

(10:32):
find the link in the show notes.
This talk was so amazing.
Jamie and Lacey are a groundedand real couple, but they have
such deep wells of knowledge andspace holding.
All right, let's do it.
Let's do it.

Jaymee (10:52):
I don't know.
Did you meditate?
I was wondering if that's whatyou're doing on the way over
because we were like quiet onthe way over and No, maybe

Lacee (11:00):
that's what I was

Jaymee (11:01):
doing.
I was thinking you're sneakingone in.
Do you usually

Britt (11:04):
meditate after sessions?
Is there like a way that youlike kind of clear your energy
after you've like taken oneveryone

Jaymee (11:10):
else's?
No, no, there's no, um, I do itin the morning and then the rest
of the day the world I'm, I'm, Ibelong to the world.
Nice.
And um, I think there used to beclearer Like, uh, we need to
clear energy, or like, oh, I'mcarrying somebody else's stuff,

(11:32):
or, you know, stuff like thatused to happen.
And now it's pretty vague, like,what's going on any time ever
with anything.
Yeah.
It's all like, who knows what itis.
Yeah.
So I've, I've stopped trying tochase, like, the invisible, um,
remedy.

(11:52):
You know, to something that isjust like, who knows where this
is coming from, you know?
Yeah, yeah,

Lacee (11:55):
yeah.
The works actually become likemore, it helps me feel more
alive than, than like, theenergy is taken away.
It's kind of like...
Oh, good.
Yeah.
But it's taken a long time

Britt (12:08):
to get to that place.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, that's something youprobably had to work on.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I know.
I still feel, I'm not in thesame field as you, but like when
I'm, you know, in a situationwith friends and we're talking
or, you know, having somethingserious.
Or family.
It takes me a while to kind oflike decompress.

Lacee (12:25):
Oh, those I need to decompress from.
Oh, right.
Yeah, yeah.
a little less separated, yeah.
Yeah, no, but like somebodyasking for guidance on their
issues is like, it's so much,it's inspiring rather than like
my family baggage, which islike.
You need a lot of reprieve from,for sure.

Jaymee (12:43):
Yeah, there is a certain awareness around being the
designated person at this pointin this person's life who's
seeking us, like, because thesituations that we encounter
pretty regularly are, um,incomprehensible, you know, um,
within people, like they're insomething that nobody knows that

(13:05):
they're in and it's somethingthat's It's an in one of life's
incomprehensibles have foundthem, and then there's an, uh, a
witness in me now that, thatrecognizes the extraordinary
circumstance of being thatperson at that person's in that
person's life at that time, tohelp them sort through this.

(13:29):
Like, it's never lost on me.
And it feels like a, um, Ialways credit it as being like a
representation of the work thatI've done on myself, not like
some happenstance or luck orwow, oh, now that I'm here, I
might as well do something.
It's always like veryspecifically that feels like
I've been an ambassador orsomething for the universe to be

(13:50):
able to help because of theparticular way that my story has
gone and the specifics of itseem to tend directly to.
whatever people are in.
And I don't get stumped thatoften, which is strange.
But it is, I think it's probablya result of like selflessness
practice because when there's noself, you, you become more a

(14:11):
part of the universe.
And I feel like what's availablein the universe, as far as the
wisdom is concerned, you justhave more access to.
And so selflessness andmeditation and maintenance
around that in the morning forme, it's the only consistent
thing I've done in my life, Ithink is that for like, 18 years

(14:31):
and now it makes it to where anysituation, um, I walk into, I'm
sort of confident that at leastI know my own story, you know,
and I know I have access to myown story and, and so I know
what I can bring to it and whatI can't, you know, and I think
that would probably cut out alot of confusion in the world
when it comes to help, right,you know,

Britt (14:54):
right.
Helping yourself is the best wayto help everyone else.
Yeah.

Jaymee (14:57):
That whole thing.
Yeah,

Lindsey (14:58):
definitely.
Yeah, so I want to know, can youtell us a little bit about that
story and if there like, wasthere a starting over moment or
several?

Jaymee (15:09):
Yeah, definitely for me and I think for our
relationship.
Yeah.
Our relationship is formed in astarting over space and, and
it's, um, in the last sevenyears that we've been together,
it's, uh, clear to see how ourunion and, and us being in that
start over place has created a,a lot of good in the world.

(15:31):
You know, I want to be humble,but I also want to be accurate.
You know, it's very easy for usto see now the effect that, that
her and I.
are having on the world as acouple when we discuss our
relationship on on our podcastand also just as representations
of help that don't impose theirrelationship on the help we both

(15:54):
kind of have this way in ourrelationship where we're not
like You know, there's, there'san unnecessary amount of
affection, I think, thatsometimes couples cast out into,
uh, scenarios to be able to say,like, things are good, or, like,
just to have that, that publicrepresentation of how your
relationship is doing.

(16:15):
And ours, uh, never needs,hasn't needed to project that
onto the scene.
I think it's made it a lot more,um, her and my offerings a lot
more accessible in that way too,because people aren't feeling
like they're, you know, like athird wheel or something.
Right.
You know?

(16:36):
Yeah.

Lindsey (16:38):
Tell, I want to hear a little bit more about that.

Lacee (16:40):
So, I'm, I'm briefly going to go back to the, the
starting over part.
We got into a relationship sevenyears ago by, for me it was by a
pull of something that I was nota part of, like I was not a part
of it.
We were friends and co workersand, and friends and co workers

(17:05):
in a really fun and creative wayat this treatment center that we
were working at and reallyhaving a fun time serving people
and creating a culture betweenhim and I and a good friend of
ours at the time.
And

Jaymee (17:19):
um.
Big Malibu Center.
And the, what was that, you orme?

Lacee (17:24):
It was me.
Oh wow.
My stomach gurgled.
Wow.
For the

Britt (17:27):
listeners.
ASMR.

Lacee (17:30):
Yeah, Big Malibu Treatment Center, you know, Big
Malibu Treatment Center and, andI was in a relationship and I
had just started working there.
That was really a starting overfor me personally because I, I
was stepping into my therapycareer very seriously and was
offered this amazing opportunityat this treatment center.

(17:53):
And

Jaymee (17:54):
after like seven years of you being in treatment
already and working in treatmentas not a therapist, but yeah,

Lacee (18:01):
every other role.
Yeah.
And, and they really gave me thespace to like be myself at this
place that I started working outwith Jamie.
And we fell into thisfriendship, and

Jaymee (18:12):
There's a great story, actually, when she showed up to
her first day of work.
Speaking of starting over, Ididn't even know her, and she
was at the gate.
And she was trying to figure outthe passcode to let her in, and
I pulled in behind her.
And then I just ran up and I waslike, Oh, hey, are you like, I,
I I'll type in the code and Iliterally opened up the code and

(18:33):
let her into my life.
It felt like, you know, like itreally started there.
Yeah.
You know, the passcode.

Lacee (18:40):
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's a cute, that's a nicevisual.
You should get that tattoo ofthe passcode.

Britt (18:45):
Oh,

Lacee (18:48):
that's good.
That's so different.
I think it's

Britt (18:48):
4297.

Lacee (18:51):
Should we go

Lindsey (18:51):
there?

Lacee (18:53):
It's on burned down since then.

Jaymee (18:55):
It literally burned down the Malibu

Lacee (18:56):
Fires.
Um, anyway, so, and then it justlike literally one day I went to
go see him.
at Ahia, um, the spiritualcenter in Pasadena with our
friend and, and out of nowhere Ifell in love and it was bizarre.
And

Jaymee (19:17):
I just come out of a relationship.
I was just coming out of amarriage almost.
It was nine years and we haddone a significant amount of
work in the year leading up tothat.
And then I, we had just kind of.
Announced to the kids that weresplitting up and, and, uh, and
then she came and saw meperform.
And I guess that's, that's wherethat kind of falls in my

(19:38):
timeline also.

Lacee (19:40):
Yeah.
And most of my startings overhave felt like that, especially
in the last, I guess in the lastseven years of practicing,
spiritually practicing is like,I don't, I don't have much of a
part in it because if I did, itwouldn't, it wouldn't happen.
And so, but that was, that waslike a big.
A big starting over for me, abig letting go of what I thought

(20:03):
my life was going to look like.
He has two children.
I never thought of havingchildren.
I just thought the person I waswith prior to him, it was just
like we were just going to livekind of a basic life.
And all of that fell apart inthis.
This creative, exploratory lifebirthed itself with this person

(20:26):
that I literally thought I hadno

Jaymee (20:28):
interest in.
Yeah, no, and that was theextraordinary part of it is that
I, I think, I think probably upuntil that point, I hadn't had a
relationship, a friendship witha girl where actually there,
there hadn't been some, even abrushing of like, in my mind,
Oh, is this, is there somethingmore?

(20:48):
I'd never had that with anyonebefore Lacey.
And we felt like genuine, like,um, Gender didn't even come into
it.
It just felt like, um, Twotravelers working in the same
place.
Thank God that's out of the way.
That we're not attracted to eachother.
So we can actually reallygenuinely exchange notes.

(21:12):
And, and at one point, Iremember we talked about a
relationship and it was also thefirst time I'd ever talked with
somebody, um, of the oppositesex who's attractive about my
relationship and not trying togo, yeah, I'm in a shitty
relationship, uh, you know, and,and trying to use it as a line
or just like as an opening andsaying like, well, I'm kind of
available, you know, I think,but I also had been in a

(21:36):
longterm relationship for about10 years at that point.
And prior to that, I was notsober and not a great person.
Um, but anyway, to have thatreally genuinely with somebody
and we would exchange notesabout our relationships because
we were both in relationshipstuff, but it was like so
obvious that we were not tryingto win each other over with our
stories.

(21:56):
And we could explore that andexchange notes.
And we were kind of, I thinkboth of us, at least to the
conversations that you and Iwould have about our
relationship.
I would immediately takesomething good from that and try
and plug it back into therelationship that I was in to
see if, you know, it helped itat all.
Like I wasn't using, um, ourconversations as a, an, uh,

(22:18):
justification to get further outof, of my marriage.
And so it existing in that pureland to begin with very
extraordinary, auspiciousbeginnings.
I feel like, you know, wherethere isn't hidden motives and
it's all just what it is andit's respect.
And I, I invited her to a sweatlodge.

(22:39):
I'd been running sweat lodges orco facilitating sweat lodges in
the mountains.
And I would take all these newlysober and newly sort of
balancing out from their mentalhealth.
A very crazy thing to do, loadup a van full of these people
who are just balancing out, takethem into the mountains.
and go to this sweat lodge andall pile into a tent in the dark

(23:04):
with lots of heat.
People on varying medicines, youknow, psychotropic and without
incident.
Three years of running thesethings without incident, not a
single person ever gettingharmed, not a single person ever
freaking out.
People from all these differentwalks of life.
But anyway, I was running thoseand, and I invited her.
My mom came to visit me at thecenter.

(23:24):
And she was gonna come to thesweat lodge.
And it was a part of my job thatday to take people up.
And I, I asked Lacey if shewanted to come to this.

Lacee (23:34):
And of course, I was like, no, no, and then you're
like, come on, come on, come on.
Cause that's, was a lot of thebeginning of our relationship is
me saying he, him being a veryyes person, me being, being a
very no person.
And I went and it wasextraordinary.
Also represents, the, the lodgerepresents a starting over,
certainly, for everybody.

(23:55):
And that was like our playgroundfor the next year, and, and a
great playground to get closeand let go, and At the

Jaymee (24:04):
center we were sort of like I don't want to say mom and
dad, but I want to say Yeah, wewere a

Lacee (24:08):
mom and dad.
We always have been.
Yeah.
We represented thatarchetypally.

Jaymee (24:13):
Yeah.
And I was going to say, evenlike, but it also kind of feels
like big brother and big sisterbecause like the authority
aspect of parents, I don't thinkwe have.
Like people.
Oh, that's true.
Genuinely wanted to be aroundus.
Almost like you're hanging outwith your older brother, your
older sister.
You're going to learn something.
Your cool aunt and uncle.
Right.
Yes,

Lindsey (24:34):
exactly.
Aunt Sandy, uncle Frank.
Like a

Lacee (24:37):
corrective parenting experience.
We've been

Lindsey (24:40):
corrective.
Like a re parent.
You're re parenting.
Yeah.
Yeah.
People.
Probably yourself.
Yeah.
Yeah.

Jaymee (24:46):
Yeah.
Yeah.
The only thing that we can shareis what we've done with
ourselves.
And, and at the time that wewere both doing this also, like
I was the spiritual director ofthe center and she was like the
therapist that everybody wantedto work with and we were just,
it felt like we were recreatingthe 60s because everything I'd

(25:06):
read about was like these peoplein the 60s who were, you know,
troubadouring psychologists,like, you know, challenging the
system, yeah, challenging thesystem, sort of working with the
dying, working withpsychedelics, all this stuff.
I always felt like somethingthat I missed out on and that we
were getting to kind of recreatetogether at this place and so,

(25:27):
so our starting over came withlike a lot of attention, you
know, there's a lot of focus on,on our relationship and actually
the job got involved at onepoint and said when we did start
dating.
They, they tried to stop it.
Okay.
Because they were worried aboutsomething happening, and then it
affecting our position there.

(25:48):
Not with the company, but thatwe might not work out, and then
be weird, and then the Jamie andLacey.
Like

Lindsey (25:54):
the whole vibe would...
Yeah.

Jaymee (25:56):
Deteriorate.
Yeah.
So we're kind of navigating thatand our relationships that we
just come out of and having alot of focus and attention on
us.
Just as people at the center, wewould show up somewhere and, and
eyes would be on us as to likewatching, not in a bad way, but
just almost in a, what are theygoing to do next?
What are, where are they going?

(26:16):
What are they, you know?
The newer clients would reallyglommed on to us.
So yeah, it was weird to learnhow to parent.
We were kind of parenting at thestart in a treatment center.
Those who were kind of broken orparentless, we were kind of put
into this dynamic role.
And then we would leave andcompletely be the same people

(26:40):
that we were in the center inour off hours.
There isn't like a turn offswitch for us.

Lacee (26:47):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So that was a big, that was abig starting over
professionally.
I think for both of uspersonally, for both of us
spiritually, for both of us.
That was

Lindsey (26:57):
our moment.
Yeah.
And so then leaving therewhenever that was, did you then
move to Ojai together or didthat happen?

Jaymee (27:09):
We got an apartment together in the Thousand Oaks
area in Newberry Park and welived there a year.
And.
It was really cool, theapartment we got, we knew we
were home because we, we drovein to check it out for the first
time and it was like this smallcity of apartments, it's like
500 apartments or something,almost like a city and, and

(27:31):
everyone that we ran into wasIndian.
And we're like, this is likebeing in India, we gotta go, we
gotta live here.
We got out of the car andthere's like smells and like, it
was just amazing.
I was like, Oh my God, this isjust going to feel like we're
like, yeah, it was sweet.
It was very sweet aspect, uh, ofthe beginning and we, yeah, we
lived in an apartment for a yearand then we had our eye on Ojai.

(27:55):
We came here for a visit.

Lacee (27:56):
We had, we, we left that treatment center, we were asked
by a friend to start anoutpatient drug and alcohol
mental health outpatient centerin Santa Barbara and of course I
was like no and I was going tobe the clinical director and he
was going to be the spiritualdirector and they were

Jaymee (28:12):
building it around us so she was like no but I was like
going this is so extraordinarylike they're building a center
around

Lacee (28:19):
yeah she was just like I want you guys to do this thing
and and then of course Ieventually said yes and so.
So we needed to move closer tothere and we just happened to
come visit here.
And my mom kept saying like, youand Jamie, you guys need to move
to Ohio.
And we were like, we've nevereven been there.
She kept saying it.
And so we came to visit and thenJamie said, I want to die here.

(28:41):
And after just a day of hangingout and I was like.
Okay, and within not that longwe found like the best spot and
are still in that spot today Andand so we were closer to Santa
Barbara

Jaymee (28:53):
and we watched as soon as we decided we wanted to move
here We watched the fires thefires came in And so, uh, the
Thomas fire was happening here,and so, after making the
decision and even looking at afew apartments, then the fires
happened and it was likecompletely encircled in flames,
and the fate of Ojai was,everybody was wondering, we were

(29:15):
all watching it from the news.
And it stayed protected ofcourse, and here we are, but
after the fires died down andit, and it made it, we came here
and found our place, yeah, thatwe're in still to this day, five
years later.
Yeah.
That you guys...

Lindsey (29:31):
Yeah, and it's so, such a lovely spot.
Thanks.
Yeah.
It's

Britt (29:35):
perfect.
Yeah.
That's funny, we were tellingyou when we were over there that
we had actually, uh, beenadmiring your spot as we drove
by.
Oh,

Lacee (29:42):
that's

Lindsey (29:42):
amazing.
Yeah, it's definitely one ofthose places where I think if
you're, or if you're like tunedin and opened, you see it and
you're like.
Someone lives there that likeI'm supposed to know,

Lacee (29:55):
you know, extraordinary amount of, of, of ritual and
healing has gone on.

Jaymee (30:03):
Yeah, it's, I almost want to make it a historical
landmark.
I mean, it's insane.
Insane how many people haveshared their feelings in that
home and how much, um, has beenlet go there and how many
protective prayers and, um, my,my teacher Lama Lenong has
visited there a few times andperform healing ceremonies.

(30:24):
So yeah, it's like one of thoseplaces that kind of like, I hope
that somehow we get to hold onto that corner.
Yeah.
Even if we move out, like.
Just kind of keep it going therebecause now our neighbors are
really, they're, they're RamDass people also.
You guys know them, Chris andGenevieve.
And they were so excited we'recoming over here to do this

(30:44):
podcast, they, they, they bothsaid Genevieve when I was with
her yesterday, she's like,they're, they love each other.
She said, they're cool.
She goes, they love each other.
And I was like, I know.
I know.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's how you guys come off.
Yeah.

Lacee (31:04):
High five.
That's good to hear andunfortunately it's refreshing to
hear.
I know.

Lindsey (31:10):
I know.
And well, this podcast isn't,this episode isn't about us, but
it's just, it's interesting andit's beautiful to see the
different ways that people cometogether because we started
dating when we were like 23.
Wow.
Is that right?
Yeah.
23.
22 and 20.
Yeah.
And we got married when we were24 and then we bought a business

(31:32):
three months later.
And so we had like, our practicewas work, right?
We had like, no, that was thepractice.
And our relationship was reallyjust a pattern.
Like an unconscious pattern fromour own childhoods.
Right.
And then it like, it took allthese like awakening after

(31:53):
awakening and starting over andstarting over to be like, I
think that what we, whateverwe're like, resenting each other
for is bullshit.
We're just bringing it from ourpast.
And the truth is that we havesomething cool here and we
actually like each other andit's a lot more fun to like each
other.

(32:13):
And then, and then it started,became the spiritual practice.
And now here we are.
And, but it's like, it, ittakes, sometimes that's the way
the relationship goes.
And sometimes you meet whenyou're on a different path and
that's the way the relationshipgoes, but it's like.
No matter where it starts,hopefully there's a window of

(32:36):
awakening to where you're like,Oh, I'm just projecting my shit
on to you.
And it's so amazing to be ableto see that now after, I mean,
we've been like living thisdifferent relationship for at
least five, like the last fiveyears, but to just be like, Oh,
I'm doing that thing, pullingaway, you know, and you just see

(32:59):
your, whatever your parents.
Yeah.
Yeah.

Lacee (33:03):
Yeah.
But you not only see it, but youmake a commitment to not, not
stay there and stay in that.
To

Lindsey (33:10):
see it lightly also and just be like, there I am,
there's that.
So many people are married toeach other.
You can hate it also or you canbe like, there's that thing that
I do and I'm going to not dothat.
Yeah.
Right

Jaymee (33:21):
now.
Yeah.
So many people are married toeach other and they don't like
each other.
Yeah.
And they don't even know it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And it's nice to hear you guyslike each other.
When we see that more

Britt (33:32):
now, too, and other people, I would love to help
them.
In some way, you know, find whatwe did.
Yeah, we're going to do anepisode on that actually.
Oh, you definitely should, but

Lacee (33:44):
great.
Yeah, I think, I think you like,I don't remember exactly what
you said, but it made me thinkthat like, I mean, so much of
our, our, our, our startingovers, which, you know, I, I
recognize it.
All four of us probably relateto starting over like every day
we wake up, but our so many ofour big starting overs have

(34:07):
Corresponded with like ourspiritual practices elevating,
you know like they're just solike in alignment with each
other and and and I think peoplejust when they get in
relationship, there's There'sjust a level of, um, staying
asleep that's just so easy.

(34:27):
It's just so easy to stay asleepand just be in the thing and do
the thing, because the thing isthe thing.
And people don't even knowthere's a whole other thing.
Within the thing that they're inthat's magical and extraordinary
and a totally different buttotally the same.
Like people don't even know.
Yeah.
Absolutely.

(34:47):
So, so go for it.
And tell, and tell

Lindsey (34:50):
people.
Yeah, yeah.
Well, how, so how does yourrelationship inform the work you
do in the world?
Because you, it's like you'reworking, you're doing this, a
similar or an inline thing,right?
Yeah.
And it is together, but you'realso working separately.

Jaymee (35:08):
Kind of, I think we mostly work separately and then
we're kind of, we do the samething separately and, and our
community, the community that wework with, they've, a lot of'em
have come through our podcastand then so they can have their
choice as to who they relate towhen they hear us do our
episodes, which we call Yawn andLoco.

(35:31):
Just a nod to John and Loco.
John and, no, sorry.
It's called Yawn and Loco.
Yeah, to John and Yoko.
For, uh, you know, just becauseof the extraordinary nature of,
it's a play on it, like I'm kindof, Yawn is like a sarcastic
name for like, somebody who'smeditative and like, boring.
And Loco is like, You know,somebody who's female hysteria,

(35:58):
but we're so our lives are sointertwined and we happen to do
trauma resolution with people,um, as a profession and we do it
out of our home.
On Zoom or in person,separately, not ever together
actually.
We

Lacee (36:15):
have a couple clients who will see me once a week and then
see him the next week.
And it ends up being

Jaymee (36:21):
interchangeable.

Lacee (36:21):
Really cool and has been successful.
Um, if they can withstand that,you know, cause we're so alike
but we can also be reallydifferent in our work.
But I think the relationship.
has informed the work.
For me, mostly like the, one ofthe greatest things that's come
out of our partnership for me isworking with no reference

(36:43):
points, like really letting goof like strong held ideas about
what relationship is.
And we certainly have like somefoundations that we work with,
like monogamy and stuff.
Maybe that's it.
I mean, we don't, we don't

Jaymee (37:01):
like, yeah, we're not trying to overcomplicate.
Or, I guess for us it would bean overcomplication of things,
like one relationship is enoughfor us,

Lacee (37:11):
one person.
Right, right, we're just like,yeah, right, right.
That's like, that's more of whywe chose monogamies, because we
don't want to deal with otherpeople's neuroses.
But like, that's been like,probably...
The most helpful thing that Itake into the work from this
relationship is, like, justletting go of, yeah, just, like,
these long held ideas that wehave about who we're supposed to

(37:35):
be and how we're supposed to be.
And, like, maybe redefining thator letting those go or playing
with those.
Including, like,

Jaymee (37:44):
the safety of not resolving something.

Lindsey (37:49):
Ooh, let's talk about that a little bit more.

Jaymee (37:52):
Yeah, I mean, that's something that got uncovered, I
feel like, in this relationship,where I think in every other
relationship and every other onethat I had ever heard anyone
talk about, they're always like,You know, um, I can't let things
go, I have to talk about themright away, and, you know, that
kind of thing.
And it's like a fun, it, it justhighlights an insecurity, and it

(38:12):
also highlights that there'ssome external validation point
that will make you okay, thatyou're not okay without, and
that, what does that say aboutyour relationship?
That you don't feel like, thatan argument.
That it can't be held, you know,and I think it's just people
just don't want to deal with theuncertainty and we experimented

(38:34):
over and over and over againwith uncertainty, I think, and
without having certain criteriafor.
Um, what is, uh, what means arelationship is healthy.
The old criteria at least of, ofsort of, I think probably what a
lot of people look for isconsistency and life is so fluid

(38:54):
and changing that if you, if youdon't trust in the relationship
that you're in and you thinkthat, uh, that, um, one
disagreement can throw off thewhole thing, you know, you're,
you're going to be chasing adragon, basically, you're just
going to be chasing.
Something constantly to validatethat it's okay and so her and I
would experiment with notTalking about things at times

(39:17):
when they're difficult when itcan't be Solved not coming up
with something when somethingcan't be solved I think you know
and I don't know if that's doneoften I think people get at
least Placeholders or somethingto make them feel comfortable
for the moment and thoseplaceholders aren't rooted in
anything and so they they theyThey extract at a certain point

(39:38):
and expose that thing that wasthere all along.
Her and I, I think the health ofour relationship has been from
the beginning, she waspracticing before we even got
together when she was living ather parents and I was living at
my parents after both of ourrelationships had blown up and
we weren't in a relationshipyet.
She was practicing in her roomin the same way in the morning

(40:00):
before she left for work in herchildhood room.
You know that I was practicingin my parents house at that time
too, and we were both seriouspractitioners who were doing
What we were doing to makecertain to maintain our own
health and integrity withourselves and our own growth and
that has been like the model forour relationship moving forward

(40:23):
is Exactly how we were at thebeginning before we were in each
other's lives in this way Whatwe were doing to take care of
ourselves in that moment hasmaintained Uh, um, it's
priority.
So we're both people who haveseparate spiritual paths.
A lot of them intersect withpeople like Ram Dass and her
interest in Tibetan Buddhism andboth of our interest in sort of

(40:46):
creating a new, a revisedpsychology that's maybe more
modern and, You know, but um, westay separate and maintain our,
our practice and share the bestand at times the worst of, of
what we find in that and pulleach other through or, you know,
um, it's really great to havethat and not to maintain these

(41:08):
separate paths and everybodythinks about it as being like
this thing that constantly ismerging and it's more like for
us, it's like looking over ateach other while we're.
You know, it's just like lookingover every once in a while and
going, Hey, do you, yeah, oh,no, okay, oh, yeah, oh, oh, oh.
All the stuff.
Every range of emotion.
But we're on these separatepaths.

Lacee (41:29):
Yeah, it's a quick place to apply all the stuff we're
reading.
And, and we do that.
We apply it pretty quickly andlike experiment with.
You know, a truth we just readand see how that works out.
And I guess that could also lenditself to the work too, is like,
well, I've just experimentedthis with my partner in depth

(41:52):
and, and it worked out and.

Jaymee (41:55):
Her and I don't talk also, like we're in a
relationship, I mean, I guessthat's the feedback that we get
is that.
That people don't hear relatepeople talk to each other who
are in relationships withoutsort of certain nuanced tones
and um, sort of structured, um,almost like babe kind of stuff.

(42:15):
Like, you know, people don'tand, and, and we just talk to
each other like we're colleaguesmost of the time, I think on the
episodes and, and, and, and, andin our work with people and
that's what it feels like.
It's like I'm with a hotcolleague who I belong to and so
I can call her hot and who we,yeah, it just feels like a, um,

(42:38):
a very safe zone of constant,uh, fascination also.
I'm like deeply fascinated withher way, you know, and it's
seven years later and I don'tknow what she's going to do next
in the garden.
You know, I mean the literalgarden, like, I don't know when
she's going to like go tend tosacred activity and like, I'll

(42:59):
see her through the house stilllike lighting a candle or going
off and tying something up, butmaybe a bundle or something.
And I don't, I go, what'smotivating that?
It's so beautiful to see thatthis something is.
is pushing her along in thisway, and, and it's like she's
already in love.
Like, she's in love already, andso it's so easy to fall in love

(43:21):
with something that's already inlove.
You know?
Yeah.

Britt (43:24):
That's really cool to hear you talk about that, and
doing it with such intent.
I feel like we were kind of in asimilar way.
But it was unintentional becauseI had no spiritual practice for
most of my life up until thelast few years Oh, wow, and
Lindsay had started on that wellbefore me maybe the last say
five or six years Does thatsound accurate?
And so I was kind of watchingher and yeah We were running in

(43:47):
parallel and I admired what shewas doing, but I also had a lot
of pushback Oh, you know megrowing up being an atheist and
just like Not being open tothings and really pushing back.
Yeah.
I was like, what is she into?

Jaymee (44:00):
Wow.
You were

Britt (44:01):
scared for her.
Yeah, I was scared.
I was like, is this it for us?
Oh.
Sometimes, you know, I was justlike, and then I'm like, no.
You know?
And then, as, uh, she would playlike Ram Dass in the car, and
I'd be like, oh my god, all ofthis, none of this doesn't make
sense.
This is all like.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Like, I'm not pushing away fromthis at all, you know?
Wow.
And most of it doesn't evenlike.

(44:22):
Yeah.
You know, what I would think ofas, you know, before, before
now, I thought spiritual wasjust like being a Christian or,
you know, or like having areligion as your spiritual.
Right.
Now I don't even, I mean, thetwo can cross and do a lot, but
for me...
It can be its own thing thatisn't specifically,

Jaymee (44:37):
doesn't have the baggage, you know, that's so
cool

Britt (44:40):
to hear.
Uh, and once I let go of thatbaggage, then, you know, we've
merged, uh, in that ourspirituality practices, I guess.
Yeah.
Lovely.
Yeah.
Um.
And we are helping each other inlike different, different ways.
It was really interesting tohear, hear that.
Yeah.
Cause I can relate, but like ina, in a different way.

Jaymee (45:01):
That's beautiful.
Yeah.
I

Lacee (45:02):
loved hearing that.
Well, and it's so inspiring whensomebody is practicing, like
your partner is practicing, butthey're not like.
Pushing it on you.
That's more interesting.
Like, I'm sure you, you had a,there was more of an opening to
be more interested in what shewas doing.
Cause she wasn't like, Hey, comeover

Lindsey (45:18):
here.
Right.
Every once in a while I'd belike, sure.
Write this down.
Totally.
It's been around three

Jaymee (45:30):
times.
Go in the bathroom and say RamDass's name three times in a row
while turning off the lights.
And

Britt (45:35):
then glow with love for one hour.
Exactly.

Jaymee (45:39):
It's cool how we all met up.
I mean, how we're all, how we'reconnected through Kiritan with
the Love Serve Remember peoplenow.
Yeah.
It's

Lacee (45:49):
so cool.
Oh, it's all.
It's all Maharashi, whichMaharashi would say it's all
God.
I mean, uh, as far as I'mconcerned, yeah

Britt (46:01):
This is crazy, yeah, you know what I mean right now what
we're talking about a year agoI'd have been like, what are
y'all talking?
Yeah, and then it all came like,yeah, it all pulled us together
Right, like in the most likeperfect Obviously, like, oh,
this

Jaymee (46:16):
is real, you know, yeah, there's some things that can't
be denied and, and, you know,that, that currently.
Both of my primary examples onthis path in the last 10 years
have been Chogyam TrungpaRinpoche and Ram Dass, and I'm
now, in the last 10 years, I'vebeen invited into both of those

(46:36):
worlds, um, minding my ownfucking business, reading on my
couch and meditating and justbeing, um, inherently inspired
by both of them, and then it'salmost like without any direct
influence.
Defining motion or method oranything like that, both of
these worlds pulled us into thestory, you know, and so I'm

(47:02):
hanging now with the ChogyamTrungpa Rinpoche's students and
publisher of all of his booksand, and, uh, and then, you
know, Kirtan's with Raghu andone of my closest friends, uh,
and family, she's like family,is now dating Raghu and that's
Katrina.
And so it just all like, it'samazing to watch what you're

(47:22):
talking about now, recognizinglike this is undeniable, right?
I spent my whole

Britt (47:27):
life denying it and denying everything until
something just, it was in myface since like, yeah, this is
happening so

Lacee (47:34):
much more fun when it happens that way.
Right.
Yeah.
Yeah.

Britt (47:37):
Right.
And I think it was me likebecoming open to it that made it
more real to, you know, it waslike not denying it when you
just surrender and let ithappen.
Yeah.
You realize you, I could havebeen doing that my whole life.

Lindsey (47:51):
And it's luckily, it's like the opening makes life
decisions a lot easier.
Like you mentioned Lacey, whereyou're like, you had no say in
the matter seven years ago orwhatever.
Like you were led there andyou're just kind of following.
And when you have some practice,it like kind of, it makes life's
decisions a little easierbecause it really does.

(48:13):
It's happening.
And, and we, we have a say whenwe're like co creating when
we're conscious, you just trust,but it's, there's so much more
trust involved and then you canactually follow your intuition
and like know that you haveintuition instead of thinking,
Oh, my mind has to like come upwith every solution.
And that reminds me of yousaying like, Sometimes don't

(48:36):
find a solution in yourrelationship, which is so
freeing because really that partthat needs to like, that's like
forcing the resolution is justyour personality wanting to say,
I'm right though.
Right.
And I'm real.
Yeah.
I'm real.
Yeah.
I exist.
Yeah.
Because if, if we don't, if wefind a resolution, then we both

(48:57):
exist here.

Jaymee (48:58):
Yeah.
I think you get to a place whereyou don't have anything to prove
anymore.
That you're kind of youfoundationally secure in who you
are in your own story that youcan experiment in this way
because it's almost like Youknow, everything that I used to
do used to be based in getting aresult to be able to almost have

(49:20):
a landmark of my existence, youknow, and and Working all that
stuff out with myself in thelast few years in this last
decade of healing which has beenExtraordinary and it's
monumental and but going throughall of that now.
I'm so comfortable with myselfand And in this relationship in
general that I almost just wantto see what's going to happen

(49:43):
without doing something.
You know, it's like, I want tosee and Chogom Trumpa Rinpoche
used to call this like allowingsparks to fly.
Like, you know, see where theunknown and the known maybe meet
up at a certain point and sparksfly there.
And so I'm kind of curious aboutthat.
Like this, even this, this tshirt that I have on, I'm not

(50:07):
like a, You know, a diehard Dicefan from like, you know, the
nursery rhyme shit that he didin the 80s that made him famous.
The coolest thing about AndrewDice Clay and why I bought this
shirt the other day is that heput Rick Rubin produced an album
of his.
Comedy, but it's him bombing fortwo hours and they put that out

(50:28):
as his comedy album.
And that to me is like, let'ssee what happens.
Like, you know, we're alwaysputting out things that are like
the height of successes andhere's like a comedy, a comedian
struggling at one 30 in themorning in the small room of the
comedy store, um, and beingheckled and, and kind of yelling
back.
And Rick was there for it andsaw this extraordinary thing and

(50:50):
was like, this is more arepresentation of like the truth
is sort of like the unknownbeing more represented in
culture.
And so we were out shopping theother day and I saw this shirt
and I was like, I have to getthat.
Because I have a whole newrespect for Andrew Dice Clay,
who puts out a record of thembombing.
Right, right.
Rick Rubin.

Lacee (51:08):
That's him.
It reminds me of, like, you saidsomething about us not, like,
worrying about consistency andthere's, like, the Gandhi quote,
which I'm sure I'll butcher andyou can look it up, but it's
something like, he sayssomething like, I'm not, I'm not
committed to, my commitment isnot to consistency, it's to
truth.
And I'm like, that's, like.

(51:30):
Totally our relationship like soit does make things a little
Like like that like where you'rerecording the bomb and like
that's more interesting to usthan like Consistency and doing
the right thing and like yeahdoing the thing you should be
doing like I love that aboutJamie I love that he loves this

(51:52):
t shirt for that very specificreason and likes the
inconsistent Nature of existencerather than trying to make it
consistent.
Oh

Jaymee (52:05):
I have a I have a student who is a He's been at
Columbia for the last threeyears, and today he's moving
into professing.
He's teaching the freshmen.
It's their first day, and he'sstepping into a role of a
professor, but he's gonna teachthe oncoming class.
This is so remarkable that Ihave to report this, but today,

(52:29):
currently, at this moment, thereis a, a person who, and I'm
gonna say his name, his name'sFinn, and he, he was raised to
be a, an Olympic skier.
And he, he was, got to theheight of that, uh, career and
found that it wasn't for him andwalked away from it at its
height and went back to schooland was like, I don't know what

(52:50):
I'm going to do.
And then he ended up gettinginto Columbia, which is like
insane because you're like oneout of every 800 people or
something gets chosen to bethere.
And so he's there at thisschool.
That's really expensive.
And he's done a couple of yearsand.
Now he's teaching this oncomingclass and this is like the
height of accomplishment andhe's still sort of like working

(53:11):
with that feeling of like, Idon't know the unknown and and
and the scariness of it And soour work together in the last
few days has been for him He'sdecided that he wanted to use
that as a predominant quality inteaching like us all
acknowledging the unknown in thesituation at a height of

(53:32):
academia to where the known isalmost like it's almost, uh,
implied that that's the wholereason that we're here, but he's
going to start with thefundamental notion of not
knowing and that not knowing isokay and safe.
And he's teaching that atColumbia today.
Thank you.
As a result of this kind ofacknowledgment of the unknown
and, and, and all of what itgives.

(53:53):
And I thought, you know what,you guys, I was talking with you
guys at the meditation that wehad about...
My, my recent rebranding withthe unknown as Mother Unknown.
Yeah.
You know, and, and just addingthat quality to because it's
been so good to us all and itjust gets this bad rap and the
unknown is where everything thatwe love has come from.

(54:13):
And it's of course whereeverything that we love goes
back to, but how bad could itbe?
It's where it arose also, youknow, and it's always there for
us.
Like you guys have made itthrough, I'm sure like us so
many situations that you weren'ttrained for.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And you just, it's almost likereaching into an empty bag and
just pulling out thing afterthing or solution after
solution.

(54:34):
And that's our existence andit's all come from the unknown.
Our, our, our, our almostfoundation is the unknown, you
know, and it's yielding all thisgoodness.
And so, you know, in a, in asociety where change is, you
know, it's, uh, people don'tlike it and they fear it.
You know, it's almost bad mathto fear the unknown because of

(54:56):
how good it's been to us.

Lindsey (54:58):
Exactly.
Exactly.
That's so beautiful.
And so the unknown like in kindof going back or circling back
to.
This creative process becauseyou are both practitioners, but
you're also both artists.
And I'm saying that almost witha question mark because I don't,

(55:19):
I can just feel that you are.
Yeah, I think so.
Yeah.
So how does creative processcome into play when you're
working, you're in your owndevotional practice?
Or you're working with other

Jaymee (55:32):
people.
Yeah, I think creativity used tobe subjugated into certain
mediums or certain amounts oftime that you can give a day to
doing something that everybodykind of like collectively sees
as art.
Sort of like drawing, writing,whatever it may be, singing.

(55:52):
And I used to think about art asthat, this thing that you do
over here.
The way I feel about art now isit's in, it's the art of living.
I'm always in art.
The art of how to pour a cup oftea, the art of how not to say
that thing that you want to say.
You know, it's always.
Um, everything has become artand everything's become
spiritual practice and it's allbecome one thing.

(56:14):
And, and I liken it to like,sort of like having, you know,
at the beginning of ourspiritual practice, like it
seems very daunting because itseems like there's a whole world
now to paint a new color.
You know, we don't worry aboutthat.
You just paint what you're doingright in front of you.
And pretty soon the whole worldtakes on this color.
It all becomes the same thing.

(56:35):
It becomes spiritual practice,it becomes art, it becomes
living.
Spirituality for me is like sonot a mystical thing now.
It's like completely about beinghuman.
It's a science of being human.
You know, really taking theopportunity to be human and take
it all in, you know, and notjust isolated bits that the ego,
uh, focuses on.
So, um, it's all art now.

(56:57):
And so I think that when I seeher paint, which is often, and
it's like a part of her, I wouldalmost say your like health or
it's a part of regularexpression when I see her do it.
It's like.
The art of Lacy is setting up azone to paint.
The art of Lacy is already inmotion.

(57:17):
It's, it's hard to tell thedifference between when she's
painting and when she's cookingdinner or walking the dog.
It's...
Really artful living.

Lacee (57:26):
Yeah, it feels that way.
I mean a specific example for meof like what art means
especially for me it like I Ihave a License, I'm a licensed
marriage and family therapistand she's not bragging obviously
work really hard to get thatprocess And also had a lot of

(57:48):
grace in that process, but I, inthe last year, I still have a
few clients that I dotraditional, I mean, I do the
same thing with everybody, butit's under a license, but I
don't, anybody new who comes tome, um, I don't offer my
therapeutic services.
I don't offer working underlicense.

(58:10):
I do spiritual, psycho spiritualmentorship with people and
letting that go.
Like trusting that like that hasnever felt right to me, like
ever going to graduate schoolnever felt right to me.
I was just totally doing thething, like I've just my, most
of my life did the thing that Ithought I was supposed to do

(58:31):
that would keep me like quoteunquote safe.
And so letting that go and like,I have a goosebump saying this,
like letting that go and liketrusting myself to just not have
that safe, whatever, thatillusory safety net.
It was like probably one of themore creative things I'd like
it'll it like just birthed acreativity in me to do this work

(58:55):
more intuitively like anintuition is creative to me and
like Just more with more trustand more flow and like cuz I
never planned ever like when Ihad to do groups when I Was
there but like there's noplanning and no worksheets.
Like I just was such a rebelwith that stuff and like a quiet

(59:17):
rebel, but but so anywaytrusting that process is like
really felt like a step intolike my creative expression with
the work and like It's reallyjust like me being in
relationship with my intuition,which is like the most creative
thing I can probably do when itcomes to our relationship.

Jaymee (59:37):
When I was perfect for your karma, because I had burned
down, I had experimented enoughwith life to where I had had.
And then I had, uh, ran awayfrom home at 17 and lived on the
street for a year.
And then I had.
You know, put a life togetherand then I'd become a drug
addict and I'd had somesuccesses and in music and and

(01:00:01):
then I'd burned all that to theground and became homeless again
and then started up anotherlife.
So I'd had all these lives andnow 10 years of recovery into
that new life and working intreatment centers and building a
music career and being marriedand kids and then also.
After all of those, I steppedaway from all of that and, and

(01:00:25):
left all of those identitiesbehind at a certain point and
survived it again and ended upin this treatment center,
working there now, a year afterwalking away from those
identities and meditating for ayear and just like letting go of
all of the former Jamies anddoing anything other than
anything I'd done before.
And that led me to a year intothat, going into that Malibu

(01:00:49):
treatment center.
As a guest and walking out as aspiritual director.
That day, and that's where I mether so I'd already tested by the
time we got together.
I had gone Hey, it's safe.
Like it's really safe to fuckaround.
Like it's yeah, it's totallysurvivable Yeah to challenge
what you think is safe and to totake a risk.

(01:01:11):
I've survived

Lacee (01:01:12):
100 percent why he's in my life he's just like always
pushing me to like not directlyso much anymore, but now more
indirectly like Having mechallenge what I think is, is
safe, you know, and so like,that's really where like my
creative expression comes in islike stepping into like what's

(01:01:34):
doesn't feel.

Jaymee (01:01:36):
Well, and conversely, her influence on me has been,
and that safety place hasallowed me to sort of, we have
this, we have this funnyreference that we work with of
sort of like, it seems like allof the, the things that go bad
in life or movements orindividuals or whatever, there's

(01:01:57):
always a point where like thingsare going so well and then they
just like.
Push it that next day in anunnecessary trespassing.
Kanye West.

Britt (01:02:06):
Yeah.

Jaymee (01:02:07):
Yeah.
Or just like, oh, there's somany people who just.
It's all going so well, and thenthey just did this next, this
extra thing that they didn'tneed to do.
Upper limits.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Even cocaine cowboys, like, youknow, even drug dealers, like,
have something really goodgoing, and then they just get
ambitious.
Mm hmm.
And it always fucks everythingup.

(01:02:28):
And so, her in my life started,like, I started thinking about,
well, what's...
Yes, I...
I feel free to do anything, butwhat's necessary?
And she helped me with what'snecessary, like, sure, be free
and experiment, but like, alsothere's Know your social
security number.

(01:02:48):
Yeah.
Know your voodoo.
Right, right, right.
Yeah.
And so, so her coming into mylife has probably sustained my
life.
Because of how giving, uh, orjust how, um, there's no way to
say it without...
Boundless?
Yeah, how boundless my, my, um,my concern for others and my, my

(01:03:10):
care is.
And I can just give and notthink about self.
And she's allowed me to thinkabout self, which will probably
keep me here a little bitlonger.
But the amount that she allowsme to think about self is just
sort of like, hey, there's a youin there too.
There's a you in there too, andyour kids want him around and

(01:03:31):
all that, and so as much as youwant to give and all that, like,
there's a body in there thatneeds to be cared for, and so
she's helped me with that, andsparks have flown, certainly,
and it hasn't always felt good,but I've always trusted that she
is doing it because she lovesme, whether it's convenient or
not.

Lindsey (01:03:53):
Yeah, and you need both, right?
Oh, yeah.
Yeah.
That's where the balance comesin.
I think that we kind of do thattoo.
I'll be like, let's go for it.
And Britta will be like, let'slike run the numbers a little
bit.

Britt (01:04:05):
Yeah.

Lindsey (01:04:06):
Yeah.
But the unknown, we're all goingto be okay.
Yeah.
Eventually it all washes out.

Lacee (01:04:11):
Right.
Yeah.
It's an amazing.

Jaymee (01:04:16):
And that's our philosophy also is just that no
one's ever right and everyone'sright.
All the time.
So, you know, I used to, I thinkthroughout the course of this
relationship.
I, I think I looked for all thevalidating points as far as like

(01:04:37):
being desired and craving timeand all that, I looked for all
that and the more I tended to myown heart, the less I've needed
from her and so I, I'm, now wecan really get into
disagreements about things Andthe state of our relationship is

(01:04:59):
not even a topic, you know,while, while we're going through
something.
It's, I don't even think about,wait, where is this going or how
do we, how do we make sure thatwe, this doesn't turn into
something bigger.
It's always just safe.
And I think it's, it's with theexperimentation of.
allowing the unknown to become abigger part of your life.

(01:05:21):
And the way that I've done it,and I think that she might
agree, um, in her own life, wework with the prayer, I don't
know.
That's the prayer of allprayers.
It'll end any difficulty ordisagreement at a certain point
is, and it's creative.

(01:05:43):
It allows you to hear somebodyelse's point.
You can still know what yourexperience has been, but you
don't ultimately know what'sright for any situation.
And that has been such a savingquality of, um, our endurance in
this relationship is sort ofnever feeling like the other
person knows more than the otherand, um, not casting that on the

(01:06:06):
other.
You know, as an expectation.

Lacee (01:06:11):
It allows for a lot of spaciousness.
It allows for a lot ofspaciousness.
I mean, we even take that intothe work of like, I don't know,
like, like people come to mebecause they think I know more
and they'll present me with asituation and I'm It's no less.
I'm like I don't, I said tosomebody yesterday, I said, I
don't know, but I'm here to helpyou, you know, unravel, like

(01:06:33):
have a relationship with yourintuitive heart so you can
decide what's best.
That's really, that's all I'msupposed to

Britt (01:06:40):
do.

Jaymee (01:06:41):
Knowing hasn't helped anything.
Just really like ultimately it'slike knowing leads to
disagreement and it leads toclosed arms.
Because it's, once you know,then you're in a fixed position
and it's unmovable and it justhasn't been good to us.
Yeah.
To know.
It's divisive.
But we

Lacee (01:07:01):
have to have compassion for it though, I think, because
wanting to know is often aresponse to people going through
so much trauma in their, intheir...
younger life and feeling soconfused and, and things are so
out of control that the, theego's desire to know is like,
it's sweet.
It's innocent.

(01:07:21):
It's like, Oh, I'm just so tiredof this being confusing and give
me something solid.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah,

Jaymee (01:07:28):
that's sweet.
Yeah, we're having sweetrelationships with our ego now.
We can afford to have sweet

Lacee (01:07:34):
relationships.
The reciprocal relationship withthe ego, the reciprocity, which
I love and I use all the time.
That

Jaymee (01:07:40):
was a beautiful share of yours.

Lindsey (01:07:42):
Thank you, yeah.
Annie, girl, I do want to knowhow y'all both, uh, got into Ram
Dass and Maharaji.
Yeah.
And, or.
How

Lacee (01:07:50):
did you, how did you?
My first memory of anythingrelated is I had this
phenomenal, um, teacher incollege and undergraduate, um,
contemporary psychology who justtalked about the Dharma.
And I didn't just talked aboutlife.

(01:08:11):
I was just like, what is goingon?
What is he talking about?
I've had two incredible teachersin my life.
He was one of them, and my highschool English teacher, and they
both passed, like, kind of outof nowhere, but he, so at the
end of the school year, I was ina, in Paradise Found Spiritual
Bookstore in Santa Barbara, andI really wanted to get him

(01:08:31):
something, and like, we weren'teven that close because I was so
shy, but I was just like, thismotherfucker is so cool, And I
saw it be here now and I lookedthrough it and I was like, this
looks cool and like somethingthat he would like.
And so I bought that for him andI gave it to him.
And it always kind of stayed inmy mind.
But I think maybe Jamie was

Britt (01:08:52):
like the access point for me, really.

Jaymee (01:08:54):
Like I was sort of I had a Ram Dass.
Look going on at the time of thecenter that that we were friends
to and I was sort of Ramdossingaround that center.
I was really inspired by him andI was listening to lectures in
2013 when I did that thing thatI mentioned earlier about
stepping away from my identitiesand sort of just praying and

(01:09:18):
meditating for a year and takingon jobs and And just, um,
watching a world that I hadcreated, uh, crumble away, and a
new world being formed of sortof like nothing with any
verifying results externally,but just an internal feeling of,
of rootedness that I'd neverhad.
And Ram Dass came into thepicture at that time because my

(01:09:39):
father had said, like, Oh, yougot to get be here now.
And I heard those three wordstogether.
And I was like, Wow, I wasobsessed.
I mean, unjustifiably sort ofobsessed with something that I
had no idea about.
Just those three words.
I was like, Oh, that sounds likethe book.
I got to get that.
So, if you know the Be Here Nowbook, it's drawings and stuff,

(01:10:04):
and it's like, it's not a normalbook format, and I didn't know
that at the time, so I'm lookingin libraries, public libraries,
for this book, and no libraryhas it, and it's like, oh, maybe
over in Glendale, like twocities over, they have it, and
then, you know, I'd call overthere, I was obsessed trying to
get this book, And just from themention of it, and uh, never got

(01:10:27):
my hands on it, and of courselater on I would realize why,
because of all those drawings,I'm sure in a library people
just like, pull that out, andyou know, and rip out pages, and
so, I finally, my father got mea copy, and he signed it, wrote
at the top like, something, someinscription, and, and uh, and
that was a decade ago, and I, Iread it, but I mostly read the

(01:10:49):
beginning part, which is likethe back story, where it's
actually like, kind of more likea book, Where he tells about how
he was a somebody and then kindof headed into nobodiness
through the care of Maharaji.
And that was the only part thatI read and I was, it was enough
to get me listening to hislectures.
So I just would drive around LA,go to like Self Realization

(01:11:09):
Fellowship, Lake Shrine, or um,I would go to Forest Lawn
Cemetery to go meditate in the,in the Japanese, uh, Buddhist
garden.
Or the Buddhist Cemetery.
I was just doing weird shit likethat.
You know, just almost liketrying to connect with an
invisible community.
Driven by I don't know what.
But, but um, knowing that Um,all the places that I'd been,

(01:11:32):
all the friendships I'd had, allthat stuff.
We're in drastic need ofrevision and, and maybe like
maybe there was another familyout there and I kind of really
felt connected to these peoplewho had been practitioners or
yogis or from another time.
And so Paramahansa Yogananda isone of them, um, endlessly
fascinated by him.
And then, so I was, I wasdriving around sort of LA just

(01:11:55):
in that mind state and, um, Iwould listen to his lectures on
YouTube.
And, like you were sayingearlier, Britt, about listening
to Ram Dass, it's just like youcan't disagree with it.
And it's like, he's the

Britt (01:12:08):
coolest, it's just, it's

Jaymee (01:12:10):
so cool how he can turn on a dime with some really
beautiful information that'sheavy and then laugh, you know,
or then make some joke or, orsort of, um, laugh at himself.
Or laugh at all the hymns he hadbeen and holding all this
information also about, youknow, this esoteric wisdom and,

(01:12:31):
and, and, um, you know,structures of Hinduism and he
just knew so much.
It was so cool.
I was just obsessed with, withlistening to him and it was the
chief source I feel like ofinspiration and that also kind
of ushered in Chögyam TrungpaRinpoche.
I was interested in TibetanBuddhism.

(01:12:51):
And so I was, uh, I'd beenpracticing in it for a while,
but I was interested indeepening my practice.
And so Pema Chodron's book cameup and then she started talking
about her teacher, ChogymTrumpa.
And so I'm like, Oh, I want togo to the person behind the
person.
And I fell into that wholething, but that's how Ram Dass
kind of came onto the scene.
And then we turned a wholetreatment center for three

(01:13:11):
years.
We basically turned it into likethese early Ram Dass gatherings
that you would see in the 70sof, you know, him at his
father's farm or whatever.
We were doing that at thecenter.
And it was really cool to havethis like incubator of, you
know, direct studying Ram Dassand like hearing about this
great person who lived beforeand then being able to kind of

(01:13:32):
enact it and, and, and see thatit's just as relevant today.
In waking up the youth as it waswhen he was around, you know?

Lacee (01:13:42):
Yeah, I think I, like, it was definitely the YouTube
lectures, my, my, my person intothe spiritual world was Marianne
Williamson and A Course inMiracles and listening to that
like a.
The driest white man read thatbook on YouTube and, and, but I
think where Jamie kind of wentinto Buddhism, I, I like was

(01:14:04):
like, Oh, I need like, whichmakes so much sense that I'm
like, because I'm like quiet andreserved and structured.
And so I need a little bit oflike love and outward.
And he like, it made sense thatwe both went in those ways, not
that we don't cross the intoBuddhism and, um,

Jaymee (01:14:22):
But it's so funny, you got into Ram Dass and then I got
more into Chogym Trumpa, and wedidn't even know that they knew
each other, that they wereteaching back to back at Naropa
and that they were like, soesteemed, they esteemed, uh,
each other.
Yeah, I

Lacee (01:14:37):
can, that, yeah, and of course that stuff continues to
happen, but I was listening tothese YouTubes, which I still
like, still listen to himprimarily on YouTube, like, it's
so funny, but, um, like thelong.
The long drawn out lectures, butI was listening to it going like
this is so much this informationis The information I need to be

(01:14:59):
giving these people that I'mhelping, not like all that
whatever, I have no idea what Ilearned in school, stuff like
clinical, dry stuff, like, I waslike, this is like, this is what
they need to know, they need toknow about love, they need to,

like, it just was https (01:15:14):
otter.
ai And then you're hooked likeyou're either hooked or you're
not and I was like hooked andI'm still hooked and it's still
my number one and it's still thething I return to and still the
their faces him and Maharaji'sfaces are the faces that I rest
in when I'm suffering and it'sbeen Extraordinary.

(01:15:35):
But yeah, I think, I think itwas Jamie inspired.

Jaymee (01:15:38):
Besides all the great information that he gives, he
would also give these examplesabout doing the job that her and
I were doing where he'd go,yeah, and then I pretended like
I was a psychologist for alittle while and I was doing
that and I would sit across fromsomebody and say, well, I know
some things and then, you know,and he would just describe that
process of what happens that.
Without him, there would be noreference point that, that

(01:16:00):
you're not an insane personwho's talking to yourself or
having all this stuff.
He immediately legitimized theidea of seeing that when we step
into these things, we'rebringing a certain identity and
all of what it implies.
And, and him talking about thatwas so freeing because it was
like it pointed to another worldthat he had found that I could
be in sessions with people.

(01:16:21):
I could step outside of thatthing that I think I'm supposed
to do and be more of a friend.
And I think that's what we'vedone is sort of a reference for
guru in, uh, Chogam Trumparefers to it as spiritual
friend.
And I think that that's kind ofwhat we are for people is just

(01:16:43):
without you having to do anywork.
There's love from the start.
Without you having to do anywork or any qualifications, no
criteria, you are loved from thestart.
Yes, this is a transactionalexperience.
It's an hour where we sit acrossfrom each other and you've paid
to have our lens on, on yourparticular story for that hour.

(01:17:05):
But outside of that, try me.
Try me.
You might be at my house onWednesday, you know?
Which is free of charge.
You might, like, you'll haveaccess to me.
You don't need to do anything.
You're, once we meet, you're inour hearts.
And it's amazing to know thatabout another human being.
That I'm in a relationship withsomebody who I know that anyone

(01:17:25):
that's entered into our sphere,we're talking about people from
seven years ago.
Like, we're talking about peoplewho OD'd.
Um, after leaving a treatmentcenter that we were at who were
like a 20 year old, those arelike the saints in our world
now, you know?
No one gets left behind with usand there's no criteria to meet.
And so, Varamdas has inspiredthat, you know, stepping outside

(01:17:49):
of the role and becoming, as hesays, like more

Lacee (01:17:51):
soul.
I was in school and likenothing.
I was like, this is, I feel likethis is what I'm supposed to do,
but it's not speaking to me.
And then he starts to talk andit's like speaking to my
intuitive heart.
And like he tells a story abouthis brother being in the
psychiatrist and he goes, thepsychiatrist appointment.
Oh, the psych ward.
And Or the psych ward.

(01:18:11):
And the psych.
But the psychiatrist, like, he'slike, my brother thought he was
Jesus.
And the psychiatrist thought hewas a psychiatrist.
I'm like, any, and I'm likethat.
That's my experience of life islike the roles, the souls not
roles thing just like blew meapart and I, and I was like,
that's what I, that's been myexperience as I was raised in a

(01:18:35):
very loving home.
I, I had loving parents, like itwas, it was as much as I want to
rip on it sometimes.
It was a really.
It was a, Gabor Mate woulddisagree with me, but it was a
pretty idyllic childhood eventhough I, there was suffering.
And so I had some sort oflanguage of the heart that like

(01:18:56):
my schooling was not speakingto.
And so he just like spokedirectly to that.
And it's amazing that it still

Jaymee (01:19:03):
hasn't gotten.
I think, yeah, and he and I weresimilar in the way to, of the
way of already having been somany people and gone after so
many things and thought thatthat was what it was and then
had stepped away from itsuccessfully and found like a
new ground and so I related tohim in that way and then I could
kind of be, um More of a livingmaybe embodiment of what he was

(01:19:29):
doing in the 70s I was I couldkind of have access more
directly to that because I wasat that same point of readiness
and exhausted so many Pursuitsegoic pursuits, you know Trying
to find spiritual freedom,

Lindsey (01:19:48):
right, right, man.
And you want to talk about likestarting over, you know, and
just like being right on therazor's edge of like, yeah,
starting over.
And now like Ram Dass's wholelife can be like summed up in a
Wikipedia page and it seemsclean.

Lacee (01:20:04):
And like a lot of it starting over was messy as fuck,
even up

Lindsey (01:20:09):
to like pre stroke and after stroke.
And that is what is makes.
It's so appealing to me becausethat human aspect, like he was
doing it, you know, quoteunquote wrong a lot of the time,
but like experimenting openlywith just being alive.

Jaymee (01:20:28):
Yeah.
Thank God for those storieswhere he shared about going
through a breakup, you know,where like he found love kind of
Dassness with a woman.
And, and, and he had, uh, goneto all the insecure places that
he had ever gone to and hearinghim be human in that and knowing

(01:20:50):
that that's a part of the thingand it's not like once you're
Ram Dass you're not there, youknow, was so like, he just, he's
brought humanity back intospirituality, right?
And that now.
Seems to be like the, uh, whatwe're finding also as, uh,
anything that can be measured isjust in how much we're taking

(01:21:10):
part in the human experiencerather than sort of, um,
Compartmentalizing it.
Or having aggression towards itby looking for something else,
you know?
Mm,

Britt (01:21:18):
mm

Lacee (01:21:19):
Maharajah

Lindsey (01:21:26):
is kind of the same too.
Yeah.
You know, he's not like aperfect.
Guru Saint

Lacee (01:21:30):
and oh my God, he was mean and just so funny, like the
most insane.
He my, my love affair with him.
Really deepened, honestly, inthis, like, last year.
Like, I was like, yeah, I lovehim, but, like, Rom's my dude.
And then, all of a sudden, therewas, like, this, Whoa, okay, you
and I are in a deeprelationship.

(01:21:51):
And, yeah, like, Jamie callsthem, like, dirty saints, but,
like, the rebel rousers, andjust, like, the...
I'm gonna fuck with you, andit's the best, it makes so much
sense to me.
Have you read Whisper in theHeart?
I haven't, but I've, I've justbeen like, I'm almost three
pages out of Miracle of Love.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

(01:22:11):
And so, and so it's just like,that book is just, witch ragu.
It says a lot of that stuff inthere.
It's like, exaggerated, but, butI don't know.
I think it's stillextraordinary.
And, and, and again, like throwseverything out, throws all the
reference points out.
And that's really good for mebecause I've been addicted to
reference points to keep mesafe.

(01:22:31):
And like, it just gets allthrown out.
You read a book like MiracleLove or Whisper of the Heart and
you go like, you go, you eitherbelieve it or you don't.
You know, and yeah, and I and Idon't think that that's a choice
that believing or not like youjust do or you don't and and I
just like fell into belief oflike, yeah, I believe every bit

(01:22:51):
of this, right?
Yeah.
And it immediately expands yourexperiences as a human being
like, oh, okay.

Jaymee (01:22:59):
It was funny when we were at Kirtown the other day,
all together, and they weretalking about formalities and
they were giving somebody shit,like Raghu was giving somebody
shit about having their backturned.
To Maharaji, and, and you neverdo this, this, and in India they
would, you know, and all thatstuff.
And it's like Maharaji himselfwould totally reject the notion

(01:23:24):
of having to do things in aparticular way.
Yeah.
Like, that's all the stories.
It's like, you guys are making abig deal about this.
It's not a thing.
So it's ridiculous.
You know, that, that goes on.
I love that at the center of it,that's what I've relied on more
than the retinue or those whoare left behind.
The legends, the, the, the lovesto remember legends who have

(01:23:46):
now, we're all friends with, youknow, I.
I rely more on Maharaji'steachings directly rather than
what people's interpretationsare of them because the stories
that are direct from him arealways him turning people away
from an importance on him and aformality being thrown out and

(01:24:07):
showing you that you can't counton anything and that's like the
teachings, that's like the graceAnd so, so I, I, I, you almost
have to have a more directexperience with the guru himself
rather than, um, you know, thosewho have come afterwards because
his example is groundlessness.

(01:24:27):
And he goes, who's this?
And then people go, well, that'syou, Maharaji.
And he goes, no.
It's like Buddha, you know, andthen Buddha is seen to be a
Christ.
And so it's like, who the hell?
They're all one person, it's allthe same thing.
And, and, uh, and form andformality are, um, are things

(01:24:49):
that I, I think it's importantto know the customs.
And then also experiment withgoing beyond those in people's
comfort zones, you know, thatwas not the sentence that I
meant to say exactly and it'swording.
Oh, it's great.

Lacee (01:25:06):
Okay.

Lindsey (01:25:07):
Yeah.
Well, yeah, there's like thisimportance of sacred ritual, but
then you like take it soseriously that it can neuroses.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I love what you said aboutbelief.
Like.
Yeah.
That's what I kind of tuned intoin the last few years, like I'm
just gonna believe in everythingbecause we with duality, we
throw everything into the pileof truth or not truth.

(01:25:30):
Like, oh, this is real becauseI'm like quantifying it on some
right.
Whatever scientific scale orsomething, and this is not true
because there's not that scaleyet.
Yeah.
And belief just, you can throwit all away and be like, the
only truth is like this energyof love that runs through all

(01:25:50):
things like that spark, youknow, that's the only real
truth.
Yeah.
And from there, I'll just, I'llbelieve in every damn thing.
When we were in

Jaymee (01:25:58):
your home state last, when we were in Austin in April.
I had the, I had a realizationin a metaphysical bookshop that
that's what we do for a livingis help people believe.
Somebody asked me that, theclerk asked me like, oh, hey,
what do you do for a living?
And I was like, I help peoplebelieve.

(01:26:18):
And I never said it before likethat, but I, I didn't feel like
getting specific and being arole.
With him.
So I just wanted to tell him theessence and that was what it
felt like.
It's like, I think that's whatit is.
And belief is such a trickything too, because it's like
belief without attachment, Iguess, to take it even a step

(01:26:39):
further, right.
You know, belief withoutattachment to the result of
anything that your beliefbrings.
So, which is a hard sell, Ithink.

Lacee (01:26:50):
Yeah.
And yet belief actually.
Helps with attachment because Ithink like it's so expand like
that.
It's been expansive for me.
Like a lot of my, my leaninginto spiritual practice has been
driven by physical pain andwhich really can limit or any, I
mean, any pain trauma, it justcan limit your.

(01:27:13):
Your view of life and so beliefis has just like this
spaciousness to it and this likeexpansiveness to it and what I'm
even what I'm currently studyingis showing me how limited we're
using our our mind like we'reusing our minds in a really
limited way and that there'slike This deeply, which I think

(01:27:36):
people experience actually inpsychedelic experiences.
I think we touch into thelimitless nature of mind and
that's what's really attractiveabout those experiences.
But we, We don't practice thatin like our day to day living.
And so I just like belief feelslike it's like reading these
stories about Maharaji andbelieving them.

(01:27:57):
Your mind can't help but just beso spacious and go like, okay,
well, what, like how, what else?
Like

Jaymee (01:28:06):
what else?
Belief is almost like, it's likebelief is just existing.
Like, it doesn't go beyond that,like the belief that, that I
think that we might help peoplefind is that they're alive, you
know, and that you have anopportunity and that you're
asking the question says thatyou have intelligence and that

(01:28:30):
it's a form of faith juststepping into a question.
And so you're alive and, and Ithink maybe that's what all the
work is just pointing peopletowards is like just taking the
opportunity of being alive.
You know, and um, and having allthe choices possible within
that, which means having an openmind.
In order to have limitlesschoices, you have to have an

(01:28:52):
open mind stepping into thatkind of potential.
And, uh, when those two thingscome together, it's, it's, uh,
it can go any direction, butyou're alive is the core of it,
you know?
So presence, mindful awareness.
Seeing the interconnectedness ofall things.
Those things are found justpurely in existence.

(01:29:14):
And, and, um, I think that'sultimately what we end up
teaching people.
Through decluttering, throughmaking peace with their story.
This kind of space to be able torecognize how good it is just to
be alive and have anopportunity.
Yeah

Lindsey (01:29:31):
so i'm specifically interested in like the the
aspect of belief and faith andhow you guys personally relate
it to someone in recovery oraddiction and like Because it's,
it feels like it's a, it's atight rope a little bit, you
know, not falling into a dogma,but having faith.

(01:29:54):
How do you walk that?

Lacee (01:29:57):
I think him and I both, Jamie through his, through his
just own life experience.
Um, I guess mine through thattoo, I mean, I, I still don't
want to give school that muchcredit.
But, um, I also started workingin addiction treatment when I
was 21, which blew my mind.
So that was really like my lifeexperience, but she didn't

Jaymee (01:30:19):
get into it because like there's some alcoholic in her
family that she wanted to likeheal.
So she took a job as a rehabperson.

Lacee (01:30:28):
Oh, I'll just work in a rehab.
That's Um, but I think we bothgot a really, um, great
understanding of psychology.
Like, and, and like, cause somuch, I, I always tell people,
I'm like, it is verypsychological and we treat it
spiritually again.
Not that the two are separate,but it helps people in the entry

(01:30:51):
to explain them as separate.
And so I think we both had areally good understanding of,
like, pain, and so we could,like, go through people's
timelines and show them, like,Hey, do you see how, like, this,
how you, how this, how you'rehere, how you got here and that

(01:31:11):
you're not in this and we can'teven really blame your parents
and, and, and pull out throughthe psychology, like, pull out
the little miracles, pull outthe, like, the moments of faith,
pull out the, where faith mayhave served, and so I think We
just, we came in with a reallygood understanding of, again,

(01:31:35):
like, both of those worlds thatare not separate, but, and like,
describing psychology in areally, like, easy, digestible
way, and the, and also, like,taking, I just decided to take I
mean, listening to Ram Dass,like, and that, that was so
digestible to somebody who didnot grow up with any religion,

(01:31:57):
my, nobody says God bless youafter somebody sneezes in the
house, I mean, it's just a very,like, My dad's like, what?
You just be a good person to bea good person, which God bless
him.
I mean, he's kind of right.
And, um, God bless him and, um,

Britt (01:32:14):
take

Jaymee (01:32:14):
that.

Lacee (01:32:16):
And so, So I think I just, like, naturally trusted,
like, trusted myself over timeto ask people the bigger
questions and immediately saw astarvation in people to be asked
those questions.
I mean, down to, like, your 20year old kid that comes in and
he's like, You know, it'stattoos all over him and he's

(01:32:38):
hard and you get him in the roomand he's just a big old softie
and he's desperate for somebodyto ask him like, do you believe
in something bigger?
And almost across the board, Ihave goosebumps, everybody says
yes.
Or what do you, I just say, whatdo you believe in?
And I don't care how you, youcould say my shoes.
And, and people just say like, Ibelieve that there's something

(01:32:59):
bigger going on.
And so there's, I just, I thinkwe immediately saw that there's
a hunger for that and, and, andmy, yeah.
Didn't pass it

Jaymee (01:33:07):
by.
And my unique story in havingbeen sober for 10 years and then
seeing where it can take youand, and.
And where the recovery, likethe, the 12 step rooms, as far
as it can take you, I, I sawplenty of example and I had
experienced it myself, what itcan do, and it can really make

(01:33:28):
it an industrious person, a sortof app, apathetic hurt person, a
really industrious, helpful,compassionate person, certainly
doesn't seem to get To the coreof why people used to begin with
it kind of stays out of the whyit just goes like hey Don't
worry about it.
You're fucked like you're bornwith a disease and it's

(01:33:48):
incurable So don't even try andfigure that out, but don't worry
We got this nice fancywheelchair and it can roll you
around town You can still behelpful and blah blah blah But
it's you're you're broken yourlegs are broken and you're never
gonna get new ones and I didn'tbelieve that And I had a
spiritual background growing upof, uh, I was grown, brought up
in, um, third generationChristian scientist.

(01:34:12):
So it's like, um, spiritualhealing.
They did, they do that, um,rather than go to doctors.
And so I was raised in that and,and had also seen where that
needed some revision or, youknow, needed some more heart or
something.
And, but I, I'd seen enoughexamples to, to know what
traditional recovery couldbring.
And so, I think the main thingin the last 10 years that I've

(01:34:35):
been doing with the addictionissue, at least in session, is
it's a combination of goingthrough someone's timeline and
showing them how many ways thatthey've been caring for
themselves all along.
Like, they've been caring forthemselves, we, we care for
ourselves all day long in waysthat we're just not in touch
with.

(01:34:56):
We just think that it'smaintenance or it's just what
you have to do.
But there's this caring, youwouldn't do it if at it's
baseline, you didn't care aboutgetting it right, making people
happy.
And we've been doing that ourwhole lives and so, I go through
people's stories with them andshow them that while
simultaneously, Pointing outthat the people that hurt them
also have these backstories andso humanizing all of the

(01:35:18):
villains and seeing that we'reall one thing and who is there
really to be mad at that'salive.
You know, so those two processesof sort of seeing how much you
care and have been caring allalong and that you're caught up
in a story where there's noparticular, uh, true
representation of where to blameand, and that we're all in this

(01:35:40):
together and that hurt peoplehave hurt people and all that.
And so it, that's how to workwith, that's how I've worked
with addiction at least.
And it seems also that it'sliberating people more from the
notion of being an addict ornot.
Addict is sort of a, uh, cleverand a, uh, it's a reference
point that we've had up untilnow to describe something that

(01:36:04):
the AMA describes as being afatal illness.
That's, that's a disease, youknow, which I don't agree with.
I think that it's allenvironmental.
I think that it's all, um,ancestral.
All of it.
And another way of saying thatis, you know, genetically

(01:36:25):
predisposed.
Exactly.
And so, in science andspirituality, these things are
Continue to meet at these pointsand, and, uh, I think
introducing to people how muchthey care and also forgiving
those people who hurt youbecause of their backstory and
allowing yourself to do that,like it's, it, uh, it creates a

(01:36:47):
new person deep into a story ofthinking you know who you were.
You know, and that in itselfallows people to, after time of
abstinence, which I highlyrecommend to anyone who's had
habitual tendencies ofaddiction, something that would
look like addiction.
to spend a period of time inabstinence, but asking yourself

(01:37:09):
these questions, doing thisparticular work.
And then at a certain point,what I found in my own recovery
was that I wasn't afraid of whatwas in a bottle.
I wasn't afraid of, you know, Ididn't think that there was
something in the wine that wasmore powerful than the life and
the confidence that I wasfeeling now in my own story.
That it would take that over andit hasn't, you know, I've

(01:37:31):
maintained an integrity withbringing back altered states of
consciousness into my life andgrowth for me and also How the
universe speaks to me each day,which is like, you know If I'm
tripping on wires or if I'mdropping a dish or if I'm
something like that It's theuniverse is telling me hey slow

(01:37:51):
down You know, people push pastthose things, but for me, it's
like I'm always in relationshipwith what the universe is
telling me.
And while I've experimented withaltered states of consciousness,
I've not only maintained myintegrity as a clinician, um,
but also it hasn't slowed downmy spiritual growth and made me
want to move less toward theuncomfortable thing.

(01:38:13):
And that's really the measure, Ifeel like, you know.

Lacee (01:38:16):
I think also, like, we've, we're really, I think
we're doing a lot of, like,teaching people how to be rather
than do, you know?
And I think that we've,somewhere I feel really
confident in us, is like, we'vejust been, we've embodied really
all the practices, we'reembodying the work all the time,
and so, when we walk into thesetreatment centers, I mean, we

(01:38:40):
are just like, We're not takingthings seriously.
We're having fun.
We're like these open vessels oflove.
You have like a new client comein and Jamie and I are the first
people to run up and be like,Hey, what's your name?
And like, it's an immediatelike, We're, we're the same
level.
There's no authority here.
And we, we embody an energy thatpeople go, like, tell me, like,

(01:39:02):
how did that happen?
Like, tell me about that.
I want kind of what that is.
And it's not even really.
As much as we are good at sayingthings, a lot of it has been
unsaid, and people gettingcurious about our way, because
our way is just, it's likelight.
It's not in these centers, it'sso much density around clinical

(01:39:24):
and heaviness and authority andeducation and information.
People

Jaymee (01:39:29):
didn't even know we were in a relationship when we owned
that center in Santa Barbaraand, and uh.
Like, for three years, peoplewould see us come together, show
up in the same car, and theythought that we were just
friends.
Because we would never sort of,like, impose even our own
relationship on

Lacee (01:39:45):
Yeah, it was just immediately about everybody
else.
All day long, it was just aboutreally intimately serving,
moving, leaning in towards,like, crisis constantly with
just, like, love and hugs andaffection and But

Jaymee (01:40:00):
uncontrived, not just like, Oh, honey, don't worry,
it's gonna be okay.
Like I don't say it's going tobe okay,

Lacee (01:40:08):
you know?
No, I'll be like, bitch, youneed to calm down.
I love you, but relax.
And they like would respect likea young 20 year old.
Because it's uncontrived.
Girl would be like, okay.
Yeah.
You're

Lindsey (01:40:20):
speaking my language.
And it's not coming from theplace of like, I'm, I'm like the
healed one.
And you're like the broken one?
No,

Lacee (01:40:26):
it's just like, I get it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
This life is intense.
Yeah.
I mean,

Jaymee (01:40:31):
it's really insane.
I, to, to one quality that Ithink is, it blows my mind in,
in, uh, we're in California inone of the most contentious
places where probably thephrase, go Sue me, came from
and, and, uh, In, in all of thework that we've done, which has

(01:40:53):
been moving past what therapy,what treatment centers say or
have historically said is safe,to allow people to know that you
care about them withunconditional positive regard,
that's the, that's the fuckingpsychology statement for love.
Unconditional positive regard.
So, um, to, to use that insession or to let somebody know

(01:41:19):
that you care about them hasbeen frowned upon.
And we have systematicallydisproven that.
And the crazy thing is, is thatwe have no complaints against
us.
We have no, um, no, uh,litigious thing.
We actually...
I barely have anybody that everstops working with me.

(01:41:39):
Have I ever had anybody thatstopped working with me after
one session?
I don't.
Yeah.
People like,

Lacee (01:41:46):
and we've been through some fucking hell shit, It's the
most intimate and it's always

Britt (01:41:51):
some like insane shit.

Jaymee (01:41:52):
It's doing all the things that they say not to do.
And of course we had to be thepeople that we are in order to,
to be in that limitless spacebecause you have to

Lacee (01:42:01):
have integrity, right?
There's boundaries in that.
There's like some sort of.
energy of boundary while you'resaying I love you and I care

Jaymee (01:42:08):
about you.
It's truly committing to noharm, but knowing what harm is,
like really knowing what harm isand, and knowing that even the
areas that don't look like harmcould be harmful.
It's like having that level ofmeticulous scrutiny around your
methods and what you do, but In10 years of doing this in all

(01:42:30):
these intimate situations andI've gotten so close with people
at tragic moments in their livesand also vulnerable moments in
their lives that we don't haveany complaints against us, you
know, or haven't been in anytrouble doing all the things
they say won't keep you safe,you know.
Yeah, congratulations.

Lacee (01:42:56):
Tell

Lindsey (01:42:56):
us one of those, this can be like, we can wind down
after this, but I will tell usif you can like.
Like one fucking insane story orwhat's coming to mind, what
feels top of mind?

Lacee (01:43:08):
Well, I just generally a lot of, a lot of death, a lot
of, um, overdose, which, I mean,obviously it makes sense, but
you know, We've

Jaymee (01:43:16):
personally worked with 23 people, I think maybe more,
who we've known their storiesintimately and who, and who
have, have died, and, um, we've,since we've known each other.
Yeah.

Lacee (01:43:32):
Yeah.
There was a really intense onewhere we had a new client come
in and she had just tried tohang herself.
I was hoping.

Jaymee (01:43:39):
I was hoping you'd share that.

Lacee (01:43:42):
And she wasn't, she was a mother and she's probably in her
fifties and she.
She got caught, like, in the actof trying to hang herself
outside of her home.
And, um, came in and was just indisarray and suicidal.
Had never been to

Jaymee (01:43:59):
treatment, didn't know anything about psychology,
therapy, treatment, or anythinglike that.

Lacee (01:44:04):
Culturally, it was a very, uh, a different experience
for their family.
Culturally, and, um, and shewas, she was suicidal and saying
she wanted to kill herself.
And Jamie and I, and, and Jamieled that moment, certainly, but
just loved on her, and, oh I,goosebumps again, and, and loved

(01:44:24):
on her, and from that moment on,she, it was like a zap, and

Jaymee (01:44:29):
she, Well, and her whole family who had, or were trying
to put the pieces together oflike, our mother just tried to
commit suicide, or the matriarchof our family, what's going on
here, and without, like, thesepeople being sort of versed in
healing or psychology oranything.
Um, just my mom tried to killherself.

(01:44:49):
What's going on here?
And culturally, I think they're,um, I think they're, I think
they're Philippines.
Yeah, maybe.
Yeah.
So, uh, so there was a littlebit of a distance there, even
with culture.
And she came in and she stillhad the bruises around her neck.
And it's like, you see somethinglike that, and immediately,
Like, um, the part of ourhumanity they were asked to deny

(01:45:13):
in that moment is the thing thatthe person needs the most.
Yeah.
And so I'm just, I, I, I'm realwith her and just like, Oh my
God, you survived, you know, andwe're, I'm sitting on the couch
and we're, we're comforting herand her family who are in that
state of disarray that you'retalking about immediately have a
place where Some place is makingsense of all of this in this

(01:45:35):
moment, at least of what we areto do at this point.
They're leading the charge andthey're caring for her and
they're showing us that maybethat's what we need to do is
move in.
So we're kind of modeling it atthe same time of just giving her
exactly what she needs in thatmoment.
So, within a week of her beingthere, and this is our final act
at the center actually, I justrealized.
This was the final week that wewere spending there before we

(01:45:57):
decided to go out into privatepractice.
And.
And, uh, her family would comeby every day to visit her and
they'd just come and hang outwith us and come and sit in
meditation.
And, uh, I got a video abouteight months after we left that
center.
And it came out of nowhere andthey didn't know this number.

(01:46:19):
And it was a video and I lookedat it and it was her and she was
climbing a rock wall.
Like, barreling up

Britt (01:46:26):
this fucking...

Lacee (01:46:29):
Yeah, that was a good one.
A lot of, a lot of young peoplegetting psychotic and, um, you
know, like a lot, like, uh,girls, I may have mentioned this
on our podcast before, but shelike got up one day in the
middle of a group and she justscreamed like, I'm gonna burn
this fucking place down.

(01:46:50):
And like, you know, her

Jaymee (01:46:51):
parents have been upsetting her and all kinds of
stuff.

Lacee (01:46:56):
And she was chasing after that, like, you know, it's just
people saying they're going toscream, they're going to kill
themselves.
And in those moments when you'rein a treatment center, that's
like you got to like immediatelytreat that moment or you're, you
know, it's all like litigationand then it gets all crazy and

Jaymee (01:47:15):
stuff.
But first month of thattreatment center, that one in
Santa Barbara.
We were on a, there was a 10minute break in between groups
and one of our clients waswalking to 7 Eleven and on his
way back he saw a rat that hadbeen hit by a car and it was, it
was dying.
And so we left the group and wegathered, I gathered up all the

(01:47:38):
clients and we scooped up therat and we, we sat and vigil.
And cared for another livingbeing that was on its way out
and everybody related to what itwas like to be that rat in that
moment.
And in our helpless state, we'vealways wondered like, Oh, I wish
somebody would come and save meand we had become that for this

(01:47:58):
rat in that moment.
And that was drug and alcoholaddiction treatment.
Yeah.
That was, that was the method ofthe moment to bring people into
the subtleties of life andcaring for another being that,
you know, people say you shouldwrite off.
You know, everybody related tothat rat in that moment, and we

(01:48:18):
buried it there in the yard withsome crystals.
And we stayed, clients stayedbeyond like two hours beyond
when, when group was over, whenit was closed for the day.
You know, these people who arenewly sober, who don't know what
they're going to do with theirlives are, everything is there.
The caring is there.

(01:48:39):
They're exposed to, you know,something that all the drug use
and abuse couldn't take away.
You know, it's still intact.
And

Lacee (01:48:46):
ultimately, we got tired of trying to figure out how to
write a note about a rat

Britt (01:48:52):
burial for insurance.

Lacee (01:48:55):
I think we have to go now.
I

Britt (01:48:57):
don't want to

Lacee (01:48:58):
explain this to you.
Because you can't.
And so you have to like.
Thank You have to be dishonestto keep people alive and, and
that wasn't tolerable anymore.
And

Jaymee (01:49:08):
we witnessed insurance companies going, Oh, good.
They're good.
They have two days sober.
Oh, yeah, they're good.
Let's just move them out.
It's like, wait, no, no, no.
So you're forced with like, youknow, you're forced with, you're
in a moral situation of like,these companies don't know what,
what this person needs.
And I know what this personneeds in this moment.

(01:49:29):
They've let me in and they needanother week.
Not two days to just get thealcohol out of their system.
That's just the beginning so Itgot really hard to sort of be in
that system and we had done itwe had now experimented with our
own place and created somethingthat was you know doing the rat
burials and doing good work likethe rat burials, you know, but

(01:49:53):
it was as beautiful as you couldget it as pure as you can get it
and still was too incumbent.
So another starting over for usthat kind of brings us to now is
that we left that center andneither of us.
had savings, and I went offInstagram for two months just to
experiment.

(01:50:13):
Um, going off Instagram, uh, attimes where I need it the most,
proved to be, in a fewinstances, like, more
connective.
Like, I connect more withpeople.
Actually, people seek me outmore when I was off Instagram,
so I was like, I'm gonna get offInstagram.

(01:50:34):
and start this new thing.
And we're launching into privatepractice and I hope it works out
and there's no guarantees.
And there's another startingover for us.
And that's when we started loveas the author, both the
spiritual mentorship thing, butalso the podcast.
And we started doing it on ourphone and passing the phone back
and forth for the first season,which is now been taken off.

(01:50:56):
Um, saving it for.
It's cringy, I don't even thinkof it.
Someday people will be like, Ireally want to hear it.
Your Patreon members.
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah, but it was cool to testthe faith again and just to not
take the guarantee of Instagramand to feel like you needed to
be at an access point and sortof take that away and then all
of a sudden.

(01:51:17):
Our private practice formed outof, uh, not being as accessible
in a weird way.

Lindsey (01:51:24):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, because you're likestepping into another part of
the unknown because we are noware conditioned to be like,
well, I need this like way to beseen and that can be cool if you
hold it lightly.
Right.
Yeah, exactly.
It's another fine line.
Yeah.
Like.
This is fun versus like, Oh, Ineed to do this to be visible,

(01:51:46):
or if I'm not visible, then noone comes.
And the real thing is thatthey're already there.
Yeah.
It's so

Britt (01:51:52):
cool.
Yeah.
They're already

Lindsey (01:51:53):
there.
Cool to experiment with.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Making life a big experiment.
Well, I can definitely.
Just even in just being aroundyou in this short time since
we've been in Ojai, I can feelthat, that you are, what you
said you brought to the recoverycenter is, it's real and it's
authentic, you both bring this,like you bring this element of

(01:52:16):
love to where people can be themfull selves and you're not
showing up as, its on its own.
Like the some role or something.
Yeah, you're not likenecessarily you're not like
showing up as like, well, I'mthe therapist.
You're the like, you're thepatient.
Yeah.
And I can and you telling thatstory about that woman.
I'm like, I can.

Lacee (01:52:44):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.

Jaymee (01:52:46):
There's, there's a really cool thing that I'll say,
um, probably in closing here,but there's a, that my, my
teacher, I have a, I've takenrefuge in a Tibetan teacher,
Lama Lenong Rinpoche.
And he always talks aboutdevotion and he says, you know,
anything that, that.
Is mine, is yours, if youbelieve it.

(01:53:07):
And he said, it's not even mineto give, you know.
You have it already also.
But if you believe that I havesomething, then it's yours.
And, oh yeah, so the peoplethat, that, that we've been
working with lately, who reallybelieve that it's possible for
them to live lives like we'reliving, are starting to get

(01:53:27):
these almost instantly.
They, they report.
That just after beginningworking with us, that their
lives start to change.
And that's measurable in all ofour sessions where they just,
and I think it's that part.
I think it's when you seesomething in the world and you
really believe that it existsand it's possible and, and you
believe that that can happen toyou too.

(01:53:49):
Then if you're connected tosomething that's actually rooted
in, in, in that being true, thenit, it immediately.
The blessings find you, youknow, and, and so, um, that was
an early indication of that ofhow unconditional love can reset
someone and reset them in a bigway to where like, she was not a

(01:54:10):
rock climber, you know, I knowthat she was like a housewife,
you know, and now she's outthere like challenging, you
know, height and safety and allthis stuff.
And, uh, having a relationshipwith it, you know, an active
relationship rather than usingit as an exit.
She's like, she's having aloving relationship with

(01:54:32):
challenge now, and maybe that'sthe best of the work we can do
with people will help.

Lindsey (01:54:40):
Yeah.
Beautiful.
We can keep going.
Thank you guys.
But can you tell, okay, we dohave two things that we ask
every time and they can bequick.
Um, Eli and Jack always askthey, we ask them for questions
to offer to people that wereinterviewing.

(01:55:01):
And now I didn't write down who,who said what, but first
question they're always so.
Random.
Do you think women's rights arefair?

Britt (01:55:12):
Are fair?
Yeah.

Lindsey (01:55:14):
No, we probably need to go another 30 minutes, but On
fairness.
Yeah, we would

Lacee (01:55:17):
go a whole 30

Jaymee (01:55:19):
minutes on fairness.
Women's rights are fair.
Um, you mean in the currentclimate, do you think he's
saying?
Or just

Lacee (01:55:26):
I'd have to answer how Yeah.
Okay.

Lindsey (01:55:28):
I will say that I think he's talking, this was Jack
actually, overarching, havewomen been treated fairly?
Are women treated fairly?

Lacee (01:55:38):
No, no, no, no, no.
And there's a collective woundin the feminine that I am
actively engaged with in myfemale, with my female clients
and talking about, but talkingabout in a way that, that
doesn't create more separationbetween women and men, but

(01:55:59):
actually hopefully creates moreconnectedness and, and, and
doing that with.
All the grace of the teachingsthat we all know, but um, but
no, that no, we have not beentreated fairly.
And, and I think that that I,but I think there's a great
possibility for that to shift,but I do believe that we ought

(01:56:21):
to be really be careful aboutnot creating more.

Britt (01:56:23):
So

Jaymee (01:56:24):
Buddha means harmony.
Oh yeah.
I'm sorry.
Buddha means awake.
And Buddhism so means likeawakism.
And so as awakism is happening,you can't help but see all the
inequalities.
You can't help but see all theinjustices.
You can't help but see all thefairness also of the world.

(01:56:44):
You see it and it becomes moreand more clear.
And what I've chose to do inthis relationship is Uh, take
into consideration all of theinequalities, uh, that have
always been for women and alsoin relationship and figuring out
ways that I can sort of, um, um,compensate for, um, histories,

(01:57:08):
um, misdoings.
Um, I, I compensate in the wayof sort of like being in check
with every time that I want tohave sex with her may not be the
right time and, and it couldwork with her insecurity of
like, well, I, I probably shouldhave sex because like, this is
what you do to maintain ahealthy relationship, but see,
this isn't a good reason to havesex already and sort of watching

(01:57:31):
you know, that watching my ownmind of like, you know, Hey, is
this like appropriate?
Or like, God, she's already inso much.
She's got a period coming up orwhatever it may be.
And taking into considerationhormones and, um, having a more
loving relationship with thatand a more forgiving
relationship and sort of notseeing it as her being crazy,

(01:57:51):
but seeing it as like.
A sacred time and studyingindigenous cultures where they
talk about it being very sacredtime and sort of having new
context and bringing that intoour relationship.
And so wherever, whereverthere's been inequalities, I've
taken, um, it on myself to tryand compensate where I can in
the relationship.

(01:58:12):
Yeah,

Lacee (01:58:12):
we both believe big systemic issues are only going
to get solved mindfully throughus as individuals.

Lindsey (01:58:19):
Right.
Right.
Yeah.
We're not going to like cancelit away.
Yeah.

Lacee (01:58:23):
Yeah.
It's so cute.
Yeah.
Cute question.

Britt (01:58:25):
Yeah.

Lindsey (01:58:26):
Um, great answer by the way.
Yeah.
And we could talk about, yeah.
The healing feminine and themasculine.
We'll do that on the nextepisode.
Sounds great.
Um, okay.
Why do people lie down whenthey're talking to a therapist?
Like, why do they lie?
I think he's specificallythinking of like a couch, you
know, why do you lie down on acouch?

(01:58:46):
That was Eli's Eli's question.
It's a great one.

Lacee (01:58:48):
You know, Eli, they used to do that and I'm not sure how
much they do that anymore, but Ithink if there are people out
there who still do that, I thinkthat people want to be in a
relaxed state in order toprocess very difficult
information.

Jaymee (01:59:07):
And the part that I'll add is where they're not looking
at the therapist, where they'relooking up at the ceiling.
Yes.
It helps a lot to not looksometimes to talk about
something that's deep.
If you have to look intosomebody's face, it can be
awkward.
You can be watching like howthey're receiving it.
And so when you're laying onyour back and you're looking up
at the ceiling, there's a sortof freedom and getting to talk

(01:59:29):
about something without knowinghow it's affecting the room.
Perfect.

Lindsey (01:59:33):
Yeah.
Yeah.
The best.
What music do you love?
I'm sorry, last, last one.
And then we'll just say, andthen you say where everyone can
find you.
Okay.
What do you love like right now?
Mm.
Like today.

Lacee (01:59:49):
I'm just always like a Nathaniel Raitliff, like geek,
um, My Morning Jacket geek.
Like those are just always in myexperience.
I haven't been listening to alot of music, which is I'm
realizing in this moment, but wejust went to My Morning Jacket
concert and St.
Paul and the Broken Bones.

(02:00:09):
Like I'm just a, I like a goodgroove.

Jaymee (02:00:12):
And I'm always, I'm, I'm, I think the record that
I've been listening to more thananything is by the Vernon Spring
and it's, it sounds liketextures.
It feels more like, um, the artof living life than it does
music, but it's cool too becauseit kind of has a loop quality.
And so you can kind of hear hiphop, you can kind of hear jazz,

(02:00:35):
but it's sparse atmospheric.
On some songs, you can hear arecord crackle.
And it's more like the texturesof life, almost like the Dow, if
it was the music.
And so, and they only have onerecord, so, um, a bunch of
singles and stuff, but theVernon Spring.

Lacee (02:00:51):
Oh, and we're, we're going to go see, our next
concert is Action Bronson inVentura.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's awesome.

Jaymee (02:00:58):
I love it.
Yeah,

Lindsey (02:01:00):
totally.
How do people find

Jaymee (02:01:01):
you on Instagram?
Love is the author is my handle.
Hers is Unconventional Gardener.
She is who to write or DMM towork with, either of us.
You could also email her atLacey.
At Love is the author.com, L A CE E and the podcast is called
Love is the Author, and Laceydoes at least an episode a month

(02:01:24):
with me where we talk about arelationship when we talk like
this.
And the rest of the time Iinterview.
spiritual teachers and creativepeople, some of my favorites.
You

Lacee (02:01:33):
also can access, uh, access us on demand in the
ether.
If you

Jaymee (02:01:40):
think you can, if you think you can, you might be able
to.
That's how we did it.

Britt (02:01:44):
yeah.

Lacee (02:01:46):
Like Course in Miracles style, like

Lindsey (02:01:48):
where should I

Britt (02:01:48):
go?
Who should I talk to?
Exactly.

Lindsey (02:01:51):
That's awesome.
Y'all are amazing.

Lacee (02:01:53):
Thank you for having us.
Thank you so much for doingthis.
So fun.
Yeah.
So fun.

Lindsey (02:01:58):
Who knows, you might just meet your...
It says tribe.
What can I say instead of tribe?
Yeah, don't say that.
I hate that.
Uh, that's my own...
Can we pee?
Yeah, let's pee.
Like together?
This

Britt (02:02:17):
is the group piss section.
Didn't know you were coming tothat kind of podcast.

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