June 12, 2024 • 27 mins
It’s no secret that science drives innovation, and the same is true in warfare. Jean-François Morel is the Director General of R&D Science and Engineering at Defence Research and Development Canada (DRDC). It’s a big title but a fitting one, because there’s a whole lot of research happening, and he’s the person keeping it all moving. Listen in to find out what DRDC is doing to help the Army stay ahead of the curve on the battlefield.
Feel free to contact Captain Adam Orton with any comments or questions:
armyconnect-connectionarmee@forces.gc.ca
Connect with the Canadian Army on social media:
Facebook | X (Twitter) | Instagram | YouTube
Visit Forces.ca if you are considering a career in the Army.
© His Majesty the King in Right of Canada, as represented by the Minister of National Defence, 2024
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
J-F Morel (00:07):
Where do we need to go to help address the
challenges of the futuresecurity environment? What are
the threats that will beemerging, and how can we apply
our expertise and our scientificknowledge to find solutions to
those?
Capt Orton (00:26):
Hi. I'm Captain Adam Orton with the Canadian Army
Podcast. Defence Research andDevelopment Canada or DRDC is
the brains behind a lot of theinnovation that happens in the
Canadian Armed Forces, solvingproblems and coming up with
interesting technologies for usein soldiers' day to day lives.
Here Here to talk to us aboutthat is Jean-François Morel, who
is the Director General,Research and Development,
Science and Engineering at DRDC.Welcome to the Podcast!
J-F Morel (00:49):
Thank you. Thanks for having me.
Capt Orton (00:52):
So here's a big question to start off. Why does
science matter in warfare?
J-F Morel (00:58):
Well, science matters in warfare for many reasons. If
you think about this over thecourse of history, warfare has
always been a place forinnovation where new techniques
or new technologies areintroduced in the battlefield
all the time. There's many, manyexamples. So you can think of
the introduction of airplanesduring World War I or precision
guided munitions and weaponsduring the Gulf War. Or more
(01:19):
recently, as we look at what'sgoing on in Ukraine right now,
the massive use of drones isreally changing how the soldiers
are operating in thebattlefield.
So looking at the science and atthe research and development is
really critical on many levels.It's to ensure that Canada can
stay current in the face of theevolving threat that we see in
the security environment. It'salso essential to anticipate and
(01:41):
prepare for the future threatsand challenge that Canada will
face while deploying onoperational missions. And
finally, it's also extremelyimportant for Canada to remain
on par and interoperable withallies.
Capt Orton (01:54):
And so how does DRDC do that for the Army?
J-F Morel (01:57):
So DRDC has various ways of conducting research and
development. So right from theget go, I would say there's
nothing that we do alone. DRDCis an organization that is
really involved with partnersall along the way. It starts
first and foremost with theCanadian military, where we work
with, our military colleaguesto, understand their
(02:19):
requirements in terms ofresearch and development. And
then with our staff of experts,of scientists, we try to
transform these requirementsinto key scientific questions,
key scientific problems that wecan tackle and address to help
resolve problems that themilitary may face or questions
that they may have.
(02:39):
So our role is really to tapinto our vast networks of
partnerships that we have bothnationally with industry,
academia and Canada, but alsowith partners within the 5 Eyes,
for example, or within NATO orin many other bilateral or
multilateral partnershipsagreements that we have. And
really the goal that, what we'retrying to achieve by doing this
(03:02):
is trying to find the bestsolutions through our scientific
work, through the the R&Dwork that we conduct to help
resolve these, problems.
Capt Orton (03:11):
If I understand correctly from what you said, in
a way, DRDC is an interfacebetween the military and the
world at large in terms offighting solutions, for lack of
better term, battlefieldproblems.
J-F Morel (03:22):
Absolutely. So really, the military will
understand the problems thatthey face. It can be through an
exercise. It can be throughbeing deployed in theater. And
then it will come to us saying,okay, we face this problem right
now.
We have this challenge. Can youhelp? But defining the problem
is actually pretty importantbecause having the right line of
inquiries is essential for anyscientist to be able to find the
(03:43):
right answers. So the role ofDRDC is really to be the science
integrators into all of this, istrying to channel all the
knowledge that exist bothinternally within our own
research centers that we have atDRDC, as well as tapping into
the vast amount of knowledgethat exists, you know, in the
civilian society. Souniversities, academia, industry
in Canada, or within ourpartners as well and try to
(04:06):
bring this back to find the bestsolutions for the Canadian Armed
Forces.
Capt Orton (04:10):
Can you explain why the military does this research
internally?
J-F Morel (04:15):
It really requires a lot of expertise to be able to
do this. Just to give you anexample, when we hire scientists
at DRDC and we have about 700scientists and more science
workers even because we alsohave engineers that work with
us, very experiencedtechnologists as well and many
other science workers. But whenwe hire scientists at DRDC, we
always say we hire scientistsand then we develop them into
(04:37):
defense scientists because it'sreally to transfer the knowledge
that someone can acquire inuniversity, in academia, for
example, by earning a PhD or apostdoctoral degree. And then
really trying to apply thatknowledge to very, very specific
defense problems. And just togive you one case in point, we
(04:58):
have scientists at DRDC who workin the area of, chemical and
biological defense.
As you can imagine, this is notsomething that you can learn in
school. Even in the bestuniversity in Canada or in our
allies, you know chemical andbiological warfare is not a
subject of study of inquirynecessarily. So this is
something really that needs tobe developed internally. It's an
(05:21):
area of expertise really that isextremely specialized and also
governed by very very strictregulations and laws even in
Canada with a lot of oversight.So we need to do that correctly.
So when we hire scientists andscience workers, really they
spend years in developing thelevel of expertise that they
need to be able to do theintegration of science for the
(05:43):
Canadian Armed Forces.Understanding the problems,
understanding the military life,what it is also to be deployed
in operations, and then applyingthe scientific knowledge to try
to solve these problems.
Capt Orton (05:55):
You said that, you have roughly 700 scientists. How
is DRDC divided and how big isit in general?
J-F Morel (06:03):
So DRDC writ large is an organization of about 1500
personnel. Most of ourscientists work in our research
centers. So I'm responsible inmy, day to day role for the
management of 6 of our 7thresearch centers at DRDC. So we
have research centers inHalifax, Then in, Valcartier in
Quebec City, we have 2 researchcenters located here in the
(06:26):
national capital region inOttawa. We have one in Toronto
and we have one in, Suffield.
On top of that, we have also aresearch center called the
Center For Security Science thatis dedicating its resources
mainly to help with the NationalSafety and Security Departments.
And it's also located here, inOttawa. So most of our
scientific workforce is, workingout of these research centers.
Capt Orton (06:50):
So with all this horsepower, what projects are
you working on right now thatare interesting?
J-F Morel (06:54):
Oh, there's so many. There's so many. Perfect. But I
would say there's several areasof studies right now that we are
doing that are particularlyinteresting and stimulating. I
would say, for example, we areinvesting significantly right
now in better understandingautonomous weapon system and how
they could be applied in themilitary, in the Canadian Armed
(07:15):
Forces.
So both in terms of what typesof capabilities that we need,
but also how to defend againstthe threat that they may
present. We are doing researchas well in many areas related
to, quantum research issomething that not only us here
in Canada, but many of ourallies are quite interested in
because quantum science,essentially the the advancement
(07:35):
in quantum physics have reallyopened up the door to, many new
applications that can greatlyincrease, the capabilities that,
we currently have. It can be interms of sensing, in terms of
computing that will allow forpotentially a revolution in
terms of, of defensecapabilities. There's many other
(07:56):
problems as well in terms of,supporting ongoing capital
acquisition projects. And ourrole in this is really providing
the scientific advice to theproject team.
So making sure, for example,that the requirements are well
defined, they are based on themost recent advance in in
science, our most, refinedunderstanding of the
technologies. From time to timeplaying the, honest broker role
(08:20):
with industry as well, testingindustry claims, making sure
that they are on par with, whatthey're claiming, to be. Once
again, to ensure that thecapabilities that will be
acquired by the Canadian ArmedForces is what it needs
essentially. So that's a very,very important role that we
play. And also we are doing manyresearch that help essentially
(08:41):
with the decision making of theCanadian Armed Forces and of the
Department of National Defense.
Just to give you an example, inthe context of the army, for
instance, think about any majordefense acquisition projects
that the army is currentlyrunning. Buying new, armored
combat vehicles, for example, oror trucks to support the troops.
So defining the right fleet mixcan become a very, very
(09:04):
challenging problem Based on thenumber of personnel that will be
using it, the location of thebase where these, platforms will
be located, the maintenanceschedules, all of that combined
with the budget that isavailable, it becomes a real
optimization problem. And wehave specialists who can come in
and provide the best advice byrunning various studies to
(09:25):
inform the project teams on, thethe best fleet mix.
Capt Orton (09:29):
How does the science side of the house interact with
the troops on the ground todevelop these requirements?
Does the commander show up andsay, I want a truck that does
this, make it happen. Or is itmore like approach from your
side where you come up withideas and then present them and
there's an interaction there?How do these two things connect
together?
J-F Morel (09:48):
The process is fairly well established now and the way
it's run is each and every yearwe go back to, let's say the
Canadian Army or any otherorganization within National
Defense or the Canadian ArmedForces and ask for their list of
requirements. And they engageus, and it's a discussion
really. So it's not just a listof requirements, it's really a
discussion so we understand howwe can best respond to the
(10:11):
problems that are identified.Because at times, we simply
don't have either the resourcesor the capacity to address some
of the problems. Or it maysimply be more rapid for, let's
say, the army to get an answerdirectly by engaging industry
than going to an R&Dorganization like ours.
So it's an ongoing discussionsthat we have, mainly with the
force development community totry to refine the problems that
(10:35):
we will tackle. And then wedevelop the various R&D
initiatives that we need to putin place to answer these
questions.
Capt Orton (10:43):
So basically, you'll sit down and be like, okay. This
is fairly straightforward. Not alot of science required to solve
the problem of we need fueltrucks, so we just maybe engage
industry and get the fuel trucksor whatever. But on another
hand, it's like development ofcounter drone weaponry. It's
like, okay, we can't just go outand buy that off the shelf.
Research is required. We needsome informed decisions on how
(11:05):
to do this. R&D help us out,and then we can solve the
problem.
J-F Morel (11:09):
Absolutely. Frankly, if you think about this, the
role that we play is reallydivided in different type of
research. So there's theresearch that is essentially to
address some quick hits. It canbe a problem that is faced in an
operational theater and then wereceive a request saying, hey,
can you help us address thisproblem? Or we've seen this
(11:30):
challenge with an existingcapability, for instance, can
DRDC look into this and try tomap out the solution?
We receive these requests fairlyoften, and they can result from,
you know, the introduction of anew capability in the Canadian
Armed Forces, and then there'sthings that needs to be fixed,
let's say with these newcapabilities. And then we work
very closely with industry to,to try to find solutions. Or it
(11:52):
can be that through deploymentthere's something new that arise
that was not foreseen and weneed to figure out a way of
addressing some new problems.And so these requests we receive
very often and they are common.So those are the the quick hits.
Then they are the most importantresearch of course that we do is
turning to the future. What arethe future threats? What are the
(12:13):
future challenges that theCanadian Armed Forces will face?
And this is where we areinvesting most of our efforts.
We are the organization atNational Defense that is really
focusing on the future andtrying to define where do we
need to go to help address thechallenges of the future
security environment.
What are the threats that willbe emerging and how can we apply
(12:36):
our expertise and our scientificknowledge to find solutions to
those.
And solutions can come invarious ways. It can go from
simple adjustments to tacticsand procedures and concepts, new
way of training. So it's notnecessarily a technological
response all the time. So that'sat one end of the spectrum.
And at the other end of thespectrum, it's completely
(12:59):
different and it will be thedevelopment of a full prototype
that can be tested and hopefullytransferred into a full
operational capability for theCanadian Armed Forces.
Capt Orton (13:08):
When you're looking at the future, there's popular
technologies that are popping upall over the place that surely
drive your research. Like, forexample, AI or 3D printing,
which is popular technologiesthat are emergent. How do you
handle those and how does thatfigure into your R&D plan?
Do you have a section that'sbasically dedicated to keeping
an eye on emergent technologiesand be like, we gotta get on top
(13:30):
of this right now.
J-F Morel (13:31):
So our scientists are really the best place to assess
the field of science and whereit's going. So we have really,
really deep expert in manyareas. We are keeping an eye on
all of these new technologiesthat you identified and many,
many others. We also have asmall cell within DRDC that is
doing the technological andscientific forecast. So not only
what we are seeing now in themarketplace, but those that are
(13:54):
really looking as sciencefiction for us now.
But potentially in 20 or 30years, we'll be very real in
terms of applications. So we arekeeping an eye on all of this.
And once again, this is notapplications. So we are keeping
an eye on all of this. And onceagain, this is not work that we
are doing alone.
We are doing this at all time inclose partnerships, not only
with our allies, Five Eyes,NATO, but also by keeping a good
(14:16):
network of partners withinacademia and elsewhere. We are
also using and benefiting fromthe input of the intelligence
community on this, because lotsof research that we do at DRDC,
and this goes back to onequestion that you were asking
before, why do we need to dothat internally? It's also
because lots of research that wedo is classified. Because it is
applied to military problems, weneed to be quite careful about
(14:38):
what we share externally, and weneed to be able to conduct the
research and secure facilitiesthat we have at DRDC. So we do
research at the secret and eventop secret level that, cannot be
widely shared, in the open.
So that's also very important.
Capt Orton (14:54):
What is the most secret thing you can talk about
on this podcast?
J-F Morel (14:58):
No. Just check it. I'm not gonna talk about that.
Capt Orton (15:02):
That would have been a good one though. Yep. Alright.
Maybe a little bit of an easyopening question at the
beginning there is what roledoes science play? Because
everybody knows arms race.
Like, somebody comes up with abetter piece of armor, so
somebody comes up with a better,you know, rifle or whatever, and
it's just ongoing escalations.But something that we learned
about in a previous podcast onhuman performance is that
(15:24):
research and science doesn'thave to be limited to
technological arms race items.What other subjects are you
looking at outside of thattechnological weapon spectrum
and equipment and vehicles andstuff?
J-F Morel (15:37):
You're absolutely right, our expertise is not only
related to technologicaladvancements. So for example at
our Toronto Research Centre itis a centre that has a wide
array of expertise in humandomains. So we have
psychologists that work there,political scientists, people
that are really looking at howthe various military
(15:57):
technologies are influenced bythe operators, by the human
behind the technology as well.So just to give you an example,
when you think about a newcommand and control system that
would be very complex andintegrating lots of data and you
have an operator that isreceiving this massive amount of
data and information. So how isthe operator reacting?
(16:20):
And how can we ensure from ahuman perspective that the
person is capable of managingthat level of information. Yeah.
And using it in the mosteffective manner. So we have
research in these domains tohelp maximize, the impact. So
that's one example.
Other example is as simple as,you know, clothing. We have lots
of research to support Arcticmissions. So what is the best
(16:44):
arctic cloning that, soldierscan have? There's technological
developments in gear that arehappening all the time. But how
do we test and how do we ensurethat these new materials, these
new jackets, for example, arebetter and will be better suited
for operating into an arcticenvironment, for instance, while
maintaining also other keyrequirements that military must
(17:07):
have.
And it ranged from camouflage tothe the capacity to, evolve in
various, situation, mobility,all of this. So those are the
type of research that we arealso doing.
Capt Orton (17:19):
So with all the things that we've kinda talked
about up to this point, what aresome of the army priorities that
you're looking at right now?
J-F Morel (17:26):
In terms of, the army right now, our focus is very
much supporting ongoing majordefense acquisition projects. We
are providing scientific advice,for example, to, the Joint Fires
Modernization Project inparticular and several other
command and control projectsthat are led by the Canadian
Army. We've been fully involvedas well in trying to define
(17:47):
other type of capabilities thatmay be required in assisting in,
projects related to nightvision, for instance, is one.
And, there are many others. Imean, the level of, effort that
we are doing is quite varied andit ranges from supporting the
Canadian military and addressingissues related to mild traumatic
(18:08):
brain injury to defining highend technological capabilities
that will be required in thefuture.
Capt Orton (18:14):
Can you explain a little bit what the Joint Fires
Project is a little bit?
J-F Morel (18:17):
So the Joint Fires Modernization Project is, a
command and control project thatis led by the Canadian Army to
really fuse and integrate awhole range of various
information to provide a pictureof the operating environment
when joint fires need to beused. And the role of DRDC in
this has been to develop severalprototypes that help with the
(18:38):
visualization essentially ofdata that can come from the
battlefield and try to test howthey can be best integrated
together once again so thatoperators can use that
information the most efficientlypossible.
Capt Orton (18:51):
I get it. I'm gonna throw back a little bit to one
of our previous podcasts, whichis the Command and Control
podcast. If you wanna pause hereand go and listen to that and
come back to this, but the armyspeaking to the air force, to
getting bombs in a certainlocation, and then getting the
artillery involved, and you gotmachine guns and troops on the
ground and all of that. That's alot of moving parts, and it's
hard to get everybody doing thesame thing at the same time.
(19:12):
Even if you have radios anddigital networks and all this
stuff, putting all thatinformation together, which I
think is commonly known astargeting in the army
environment, is a lot of work.
Dozens of people sitting aroundmaps and stuff, figuring it all
out with notebooks. So havingthat in software and having
access to that in remoteenvironments, it's gotta be a
challenge to get that allmoving. So that's what that is
(19:34):
basically, if I
J-F Morel (19:34):
understand correctly. That's the goal of the project.
And the role of DRDC into thisis once again trying to help the
project team define how this canbe done. So we can apply
scientific knowledge that isquite varied. Once again, it
includes people with abackground in computer science
and engineering, politicalscience and various other
domains as well.
(19:55):
Trying to understand how thisinformation can be put together
and then take into account allthis variety of data that can be
collected so you have at the endof it the most efficient
decision.
Capt Orton (20:09):
User accessibility is something that can't be
overrated because a lot ofsoldiers spend a lot of time
learning all sorts of things,how to drive vehicles, how to do
maintenance on turrets, weaponmaintenance, drill, leadership,
personnel administration,coordinating attacks, and all of
the stuff. And there's only somuch time in your day that you
can spend becoming a subjectmatter expert on some software
(20:29):
or whatever, so it has to beuser accessible. You can't spend
weeks weeks weeks training onsomething because there's other
things happening. Becoming asubject matter expert in command
line interfaces is not somethingyou can just do. So having
somebody present you with apiece of equipment that's easy
to use, that you can just lookat and immediately, you know, k.
This is the range for myartillery. This is my range for
(20:51):
my tanks. This is my range forthis. Everything displaying on
one page could be really handy.But, otherwise, it's markers
and, like, hours and hours ofdrawing and figuring it all out.
So having access to that andthen handy dandy little tablet
or whatever can really make adifference between spending 17
hours figuring something out in27 minutes.
J-F Morel (21:10):
Yeah. You're absolutely right there. And we
often are able also to providethat type of advice by,
supporting exercise in variousways by sending scientists, for
example, to be, observers inexercise and providing some
advice as to how we can get themost out of it in the future and
how to, help design the mostefficient synthetic training
(21:32):
environment. So this is also keyin terms of the the scientific
advice that we can provide.
Capt Orton (21:38):
You know, I feel like one of the challenges of
doing this podcast in particularis there's a lot of things that
are being worked on that wecan't necessarily talk about
because they're classified atdifferent levels.
But are there any interestingthings that soldiers would be
interested in now that you'reworking on that you can talk
about?
J-F Morel (21:53):
Oh, there's lots of things that, I would like to to
talk about more, but I can on apodcast setting. But one
capability in one area ofresearch that, we are involved
in that is really prettyinteresting in terms of,
applications and prettyimportant is high energy
weapons, essentially lasersthat, will help address a whole
(22:13):
range of issues. So we areworking on right now the
application of lasers forcounter improvised explosive
devices, for example, usinglasers to detonate explosives in
a more efficient manner. It'salso a key application that we
can see to address the counterUAS threat. It's not easy to
shoot down these drones that yousee everywhere that are coming
(22:35):
up.
They they can be very small,very mobile, very rapid, and it
might be one of the keyapplication is having, high
energy weapons as a way ofdefeating this threat. So this
is an area of inquiry that weare absolutely pursuing within
DRDC. So the science is wellunderstood now. The issue is one
of how do you transform thisinto an operational capability.
Capt Orton (22:58):
Yeah. The first challenge is to figure out how
to do it. Then the secondchallenge is to figure out how
to build it.
J-F Morel (23:03):
Exactly. So you need high power sources, lots of
power, and you need also somevery refined optics as well to
build your systems. So all ofthis needs to be put together in
the right way to have the effectthat you need on the
battlefield.
Capt Orton (23:16):
I've also heard some pretty cool innovations in the
space of night vision wherethings like augmented reality
are coming into place tohighlight items and things like
that. For those that don't know,I guess, augmented reality is
kind of an overlay, like you seealmost in science fiction where
it identifies things and tellsyou what they are or whatever. I
imagine that's also happeningsomewhere deep in a lab
(23:37):
somewhere.
J-F Morel (23:38):
Absolutely. This is something that we are involved
in as well. And just tounderstand it, think about any
virtual reality headsets thatyou can buy just for fun right
now, right? To play video gamesor or all of this. So it's a
little bit the same and applythese same principles
essentially to night vision forthe battlefield.
But then there's thetechnological aspect that goes
(23:59):
into it that is very interestingand very important but soon
after there's also how theoperator will react with this
capability. So we are also doingstudies on okay can you wear
this for a long time? Is itsomething that will create for
example sickness?
Capt Orton (24:18):
Ah yeah motion sickness.
J-F Morel (24:19):
Motion sickness or other limiting factors frankly
for an operator in theater. Ifyou put something that gives you
wonderful 3D pictures and andall of that, but you can only
wear it five minutes at a time,it's not an advantage.
Capt Orton (24:32):
Well, there's also the size piece. I mean, I I
think pretty much any soldiersuse a night vision monocular at
some point in time was walkingthrough the bushes and almost
have their head taken offbecause the thing sticks out and
it gets caught on everything. Sothere's design and dimensions
that also need to be taken intoaccount. Absolutely. Can't just
be walking around with a giantVR headset on all the time.
J-F Morel (24:52):
Exactly. So our role is essentially trying to prove
the concept, developing the theprototypes that can then be
further developed by industry.
Capt Orton (25:01):
So, you know, the ballast space is pretty big,
pretty complex. There's a lot ofdifferent technologies that are
coming out. What directionshould we be looking in in order
to make sure that we have thebest gear to fight for the
future?
J-F Morel (25:12):
Yeah. There's many areas of science that are
actually attracting a lot ofattention, not only from us at
DRDC, but also from many of ourallies. One area that I would
suggest we need to invest in andlook into for the future is
synthetic biology. This isreally to simplify the design
and the building of biologicalelements that do not exist in
(25:37):
nature. And the engineeringpower and new development in
biology now allow us to reallycreate biological systems and
elements that can really have agame changing effect on on
capabilities.
You can think about, forexample, new biological elements
that would greatly enhance orprovide new ways of sensing,
(26:00):
threats in the environment.Plants that can change color, as
an example, if toxic gas isreleased or things of that
nature. This is an area thatmany of our allies are
considering as absolutelyessential to look into for,
defense capabilities in an areathat I'm convinced we need to
invest in as well.
Capt Orton (26:21):
Yeah. I heard about, plants that, change color when
there's land mines underneaththem and things like that, which
is pretty interesting. Indeed.Yeah. And pretty useful
especially given the bigchallenges of battlefield
cleanup which that's the thingthat's always ongoing.
J-F Morel (26:33):
That's an area of research that will be by all
account massive in the next fewdecades and that really are
promising a lot in terms of,defense capabilities.
Capt Orton (26:44):
That's very cool. Science is booming.
J-F Morel (26:46):
Yes, indeed.
Capt Orton (26:48):
Thanks for, coming on the Podcast.
J-F Morel (26:50):
Thank you. It was a real pleasure to be with you
today.
Capt Orton (26:52):
I appreciate your time.
J-F Morel (26:53):
Thanks.
Alright.
Capt Orton (26:54):
Well, that was Jean Francois Maurel, who's the
director general research anddevelopment, science and
engineering at DRDC. And I'mCaptain Adam Orton for the
Canadian Army Podcast.
Orton out.
Where do we need to go to help address the
challenges of the futuresecurity environment? What are
the threats that will beemerging, and how can we apply
our expertise and our scientificknowledge to find solutions to
those?
Capt Orton (00:26):
Hi. I'm Captain Adam Orton with the Canadian Army
Podcast. Defence Research andDevelopment Canada or DRDC is
the brains behind a lot of theinnovation that happens in the
Canadian Armed Forces, solvingproblems and coming up with
interesting technologies for usein soldiers' day to day lives.
Here Here to talk to us aboutthat is Jean-François Morel, who
is the Director General,Research and Development,
Science and Engineering at DRDC.Welcome to the Podcast!
J-F Morel (00:49):
Thank you. Thanks for having me.
Capt Orton (00:52):
So here's a big question to start off. Why does
science matter in warfare?
J-F Morel (00:58):
Well, science matters in warfare for many reasons. If
you think about this over thecourse of history, warfare has
always been a place forinnovation where new techniques
or new technologies areintroduced in the battlefield
all the time. There's many, manyexamples. So you can think of
the introduction of airplanesduring World War I or precision
guided munitions and weaponsduring the Gulf War. Or more
(01:19):
recently, as we look at what'sgoing on in Ukraine right now,
the massive use of drones isreally changing how the soldiers
are operating in thebattlefield.
So looking at the science and atthe research and development is
really critical on many levels.It's to ensure that Canada can
stay current in the face of theevolving threat that we see in
the security environment. It'salso essential to anticipate and
(01:41):
prepare for the future threatsand challenge that Canada will
face while deploying onoperational missions. And
finally, it's also extremelyimportant for Canada to remain
on par and interoperable withallies.
Capt Orton (01:54):
And so how does DRDC do that for the Army?
J-F Morel (01:57):
So DRDC has various ways of conducting research and
development. So right from theget go, I would say there's
nothing that we do alone. DRDCis an organization that is
really involved with partnersall along the way. It starts
first and foremost with theCanadian military, where we work
with, our military colleaguesto, understand their
(02:19):
requirements in terms ofresearch and development. And
then with our staff of experts,of scientists, we try to
transform these requirementsinto key scientific questions,
key scientific problems that wecan tackle and address to help
resolve problems that themilitary may face or questions
that they may have.
(02:39):
So our role is really to tapinto our vast networks of
partnerships that we have bothnationally with industry,
academia and Canada, but alsowith partners within the 5 Eyes,
for example, or within NATO orin many other bilateral or
multilateral partnershipsagreements that we have. And
really the goal that, what we'retrying to achieve by doing this
(03:02):
is trying to find the bestsolutions through our scientific
work, through the the R&Dwork that we conduct to help
resolve these, problems.
Capt Orton (03:11):
If I understand correctly from what you said, in
a way, DRDC is an interfacebetween the military and the
world at large in terms offighting solutions, for lack of
better term, battlefieldproblems.
J-F Morel (03:22):
Absolutely. So really, the military will
understand the problems thatthey face. It can be through an
exercise. It can be throughbeing deployed in theater. And
then it will come to us saying,okay, we face this problem right
now.
We have this challenge. Can youhelp? But defining the problem
is actually pretty importantbecause having the right line of
inquiries is essential for anyscientist to be able to find the
(03:43):
right answers. So the role ofDRDC is really to be the science
integrators into all of this, istrying to channel all the
knowledge that exist bothinternally within our own
research centers that we have atDRDC, as well as tapping into
the vast amount of knowledgethat exists, you know, in the
civilian society. Souniversities, academia, industry
in Canada, or within ourpartners as well and try to
(04:06):
bring this back to find the bestsolutions for the Canadian Armed
Forces.
Capt Orton (04:10):
Can you explain why the military does this research
internally?
J-F Morel (04:15):
It really requires a lot of expertise to be able to
do this. Just to give you anexample, when we hire scientists
at DRDC and we have about 700scientists and more science
workers even because we alsohave engineers that work with
us, very experiencedtechnologists as well and many
other science workers. But whenwe hire scientists at DRDC, we
always say we hire scientistsand then we develop them into
(04:37):
defense scientists because it'sreally to transfer the knowledge
that someone can acquire inuniversity, in academia, for
example, by earning a PhD or apostdoctoral degree. And then
really trying to apply thatknowledge to very, very specific
defense problems. And just togive you one case in point, we
(04:58):
have scientists at DRDC who workin the area of, chemical and
biological defense.
As you can imagine, this is notsomething that you can learn in
school. Even in the bestuniversity in Canada or in our
allies, you know chemical andbiological warfare is not a
subject of study of inquirynecessarily. So this is
something really that needs tobe developed internally. It's an
(05:21):
area of expertise really that isextremely specialized and also
governed by very very strictregulations and laws even in
Canada with a lot of oversight.So we need to do that correctly.
So when we hire scientists andscience workers, really they
spend years in developing thelevel of expertise that they
need to be able to do theintegration of science for the
(05:43):
Canadian Armed Forces.Understanding the problems,
understanding the military life,what it is also to be deployed
in operations, and then applyingthe scientific knowledge to try
to solve these problems.
Capt Orton (05:55):
You said that, you have roughly 700 scientists. How
is DRDC divided and how big isit in general?
J-F Morel (06:03):
So DRDC writ large is an organization of about 1500
personnel. Most of ourscientists work in our research
centers. So I'm responsible inmy, day to day role for the
management of 6 of our 7thresearch centers at DRDC. So we
have research centers inHalifax, Then in, Valcartier in
Quebec City, we have 2 researchcenters located here in the
(06:26):
national capital region inOttawa. We have one in Toronto
and we have one in, Suffield.
On top of that, we have also aresearch center called the
Center For Security Science thatis dedicating its resources
mainly to help with the NationalSafety and Security Departments.
And it's also located here, inOttawa. So most of our
scientific workforce is, workingout of these research centers.
Capt Orton (06:50):
So with all this horsepower, what projects are
you working on right now thatare interesting?
J-F Morel (06:54):
Oh, there's so many. There's so many. Perfect. But I
would say there's several areasof studies right now that we are
doing that are particularlyinteresting and stimulating. I
would say, for example, we areinvesting significantly right
now in better understandingautonomous weapon system and how
they could be applied in themilitary, in the Canadian Armed
(07:15):
Forces.
So both in terms of what typesof capabilities that we need,
but also how to defend againstthe threat that they may
present. We are doing researchas well in many areas related
to, quantum research issomething that not only us here
in Canada, but many of ourallies are quite interested in
because quantum science,essentially the the advancement
(07:35):
in quantum physics have reallyopened up the door to, many new
applications that can greatlyincrease, the capabilities that,
we currently have. It can be interms of sensing, in terms of
computing that will allow forpotentially a revolution in
terms of, of defensecapabilities. There's many other
(07:56):
problems as well in terms of,supporting ongoing capital
acquisition projects. And ourrole in this is really providing
the scientific advice to theproject team.
So making sure, for example,that the requirements are well
defined, they are based on themost recent advance in in
science, our most, refinedunderstanding of the
technologies. From time to timeplaying the, honest broker role
(08:20):
with industry as well, testingindustry claims, making sure
that they are on par with, whatthey're claiming, to be. Once
again, to ensure that thecapabilities that will be
acquired by the Canadian ArmedForces is what it needs
essentially. So that's a very,very important role that we
play. And also we are doing manyresearch that help essentially
(08:41):
with the decision making of theCanadian Armed Forces and of the
Department of National Defense.
Just to give you an example, inthe context of the army, for
instance, think about any majordefense acquisition projects
that the army is currentlyrunning. Buying new, armored
combat vehicles, for example, oror trucks to support the troops.
So defining the right fleet mixcan become a very, very
(09:04):
challenging problem Based on thenumber of personnel that will be
using it, the location of thebase where these, platforms will
be located, the maintenanceschedules, all of that combined
with the budget that isavailable, it becomes a real
optimization problem. And wehave specialists who can come in
and provide the best advice byrunning various studies to
(09:25):
inform the project teams on, thethe best fleet mix.
Capt Orton (09:29):
How does the science side of the house interact with
the troops on the ground todevelop these requirements?
Does the commander show up andsay, I want a truck that does
this, make it happen. Or is itmore like approach from your
side where you come up withideas and then present them and
there's an interaction there?How do these two things connect
together?
J-F Morel (09:48):
The process is fairly well established now and the way
it's run is each and every yearwe go back to, let's say the
Canadian Army or any otherorganization within National
Defense or the Canadian ArmedForces and ask for their list of
requirements. And they engageus, and it's a discussion
really. So it's not just a listof requirements, it's really a
discussion so we understand howwe can best respond to the
(10:11):
problems that are identified.Because at times, we simply
don't have either the resourcesor the capacity to address some
of the problems. Or it maysimply be more rapid for, let's
say, the army to get an answerdirectly by engaging industry
than going to an R&Dorganization like ours.
So it's an ongoing discussionsthat we have, mainly with the
force development community totry to refine the problems that
(10:35):
we will tackle. And then wedevelop the various R&D
initiatives that we need to putin place to answer these
questions.
Capt Orton (10:43):
So basically, you'll sit down and be like, okay. This
is fairly straightforward. Not alot of science required to solve
the problem of we need fueltrucks, so we just maybe engage
industry and get the fuel trucksor whatever. But on another
hand, it's like development ofcounter drone weaponry. It's
like, okay, we can't just go outand buy that off the shelf.
Research is required. We needsome informed decisions on how
(11:05):
to do this. R&D help us out,and then we can solve the
problem.
J-F Morel (11:09):
Absolutely. Frankly, if you think about this, the
role that we play is reallydivided in different type of
research. So there's theresearch that is essentially to
address some quick hits. It canbe a problem that is faced in an
operational theater and then wereceive a request saying, hey,
can you help us address thisproblem? Or we've seen this
(11:30):
challenge with an existingcapability, for instance, can
DRDC look into this and try tomap out the solution?
We receive these requests fairlyoften, and they can result from,
you know, the introduction of anew capability in the Canadian
Armed Forces, and then there'sthings that needs to be fixed,
let's say with these newcapabilities. And then we work
very closely with industry to,to try to find solutions. Or it
(11:52):
can be that through deploymentthere's something new that arise
that was not foreseen and weneed to figure out a way of
addressing some new problems.And so these requests we receive
very often and they are common.So those are the the quick hits.
Then they are the most importantresearch of course that we do is
turning to the future. What arethe future threats? What are the
(12:13):
future challenges that theCanadian Armed Forces will face?
And this is where we areinvesting most of our efforts.
We are the organization atNational Defense that is really
focusing on the future andtrying to define where do we
need to go to help address thechallenges of the future
security environment.
What are the threats that willbe emerging and how can we apply
(12:36):
our expertise and our scientificknowledge to find solutions to
those.
And solutions can come invarious ways. It can go from
simple adjustments to tacticsand procedures and concepts, new
way of training. So it's notnecessarily a technological
response all the time. So that'sat one end of the spectrum.
And at the other end of thespectrum, it's completely
(12:59):
different and it will be thedevelopment of a full prototype
that can be tested and hopefullytransferred into a full
operational capability for theCanadian Armed Forces.
Capt Orton (13:08):
When you're looking at the future, there's popular
technologies that are popping upall over the place that surely
drive your research. Like, forexample, AI or 3D printing,
which is popular technologiesthat are emergent. How do you
handle those and how does thatfigure into your R&D plan?
Do you have a section that'sbasically dedicated to keeping
an eye on emergent technologiesand be like, we gotta get on top
(13:30):
of this right now.
J-F Morel (13:31):
So our scientists are really the best place to assess
the field of science and whereit's going. So we have really,
really deep expert in manyareas. We are keeping an eye on
all of these new technologiesthat you identified and many,
many others. We also have asmall cell within DRDC that is
doing the technological andscientific forecast. So not only
what we are seeing now in themarketplace, but those that are
(13:54):
really looking as sciencefiction for us now.
But potentially in 20 or 30years, we'll be very real in
terms of applications. So we arekeeping an eye on all of this.
And once again, this is notapplications. So we are keeping
an eye on all of this. And onceagain, this is not work that we
are doing alone.
We are doing this at all time inclose partnerships, not only
with our allies, Five Eyes,NATO, but also by keeping a good
(14:16):
network of partners withinacademia and elsewhere. We are
also using and benefiting fromthe input of the intelligence
community on this, because lotsof research that we do at DRDC,
and this goes back to onequestion that you were asking
before, why do we need to dothat internally? It's also
because lots of research that wedo is classified. Because it is
applied to military problems, weneed to be quite careful about
(14:38):
what we share externally, and weneed to be able to conduct the
research and secure facilitiesthat we have at DRDC. So we do
research at the secret and eventop secret level that, cannot be
widely shared, in the open.
So that's also very important.
Capt Orton (14:54):
What is the most secret thing you can talk about
on this podcast?
J-F Morel (14:58):
No. Just check it. I'm not gonna talk about that.
Capt Orton (15:02):
That would have been a good one though. Yep. Alright.
Maybe a little bit of an easyopening question at the
beginning there is what roledoes science play? Because
everybody knows arms race.
Like, somebody comes up with abetter piece of armor, so
somebody comes up with a better,you know, rifle or whatever, and
it's just ongoing escalations.But something that we learned
about in a previous podcast onhuman performance is that
(15:24):
research and science doesn'thave to be limited to
technological arms race items.What other subjects are you
looking at outside of thattechnological weapon spectrum
and equipment and vehicles andstuff?
J-F Morel (15:37):
You're absolutely right, our expertise is not only
related to technologicaladvancements. So for example at
our Toronto Research Centre itis a centre that has a wide
array of expertise in humandomains. So we have
psychologists that work there,political scientists, people
that are really looking at howthe various military
(15:57):
technologies are influenced bythe operators, by the human
behind the technology as well.So just to give you an example,
when you think about a newcommand and control system that
would be very complex andintegrating lots of data and you
have an operator that isreceiving this massive amount of
data and information. So how isthe operator reacting?
(16:20):
And how can we ensure from ahuman perspective that the
person is capable of managingthat level of information. Yeah.
And using it in the mosteffective manner. So we have
research in these domains tohelp maximize, the impact. So
that's one example.
Other example is as simple as,you know, clothing. We have lots
of research to support Arcticmissions. So what is the best
(16:44):
arctic cloning that, soldierscan have? There's technological
developments in gear that arehappening all the time. But how
do we test and how do we ensurethat these new materials, these
new jackets, for example, arebetter and will be better suited
for operating into an arcticenvironment, for instance, while
maintaining also other keyrequirements that military must
(17:07):
have.
And it ranged from camouflage tothe the capacity to, evolve in
various, situation, mobility,all of this. So those are the
type of research that we arealso doing.
Capt Orton (17:19):
So with all the things that we've kinda talked
about up to this point, what aresome of the army priorities that
you're looking at right now?
J-F Morel (17:26):
In terms of, the army right now, our focus is very
much supporting ongoing majordefense acquisition projects. We
are providing scientific advice,for example, to, the Joint Fires
Modernization Project inparticular and several other
command and control projectsthat are led by the Canadian
Army. We've been fully involvedas well in trying to define
(17:47):
other type of capabilities thatmay be required in assisting in,
projects related to nightvision, for instance, is one.
And, there are many others. Imean, the level of, effort that
we are doing is quite varied andit ranges from supporting the
Canadian military and addressingissues related to mild traumatic
(18:08):
brain injury to defining highend technological capabilities
that will be required in thefuture.
Capt Orton (18:14):
Can you explain a little bit what the Joint Fires
Project is a little bit?
J-F Morel (18:17):
So the Joint Fires Modernization Project is, a
command and control project thatis led by the Canadian Army to
really fuse and integrate awhole range of various
information to provide a pictureof the operating environment
when joint fires need to beused. And the role of DRDC in
this has been to develop severalprototypes that help with the
(18:38):
visualization essentially ofdata that can come from the
battlefield and try to test howthey can be best integrated
together once again so thatoperators can use that
information the most efficientlypossible.
Capt Orton (18:51):
I get it. I'm gonna throw back a little bit to one
of our previous podcasts, whichis the Command and Control
podcast. If you wanna pause hereand go and listen to that and
come back to this, but the armyspeaking to the air force, to
getting bombs in a certainlocation, and then getting the
artillery involved, and you gotmachine guns and troops on the
ground and all of that. That's alot of moving parts, and it's
hard to get everybody doing thesame thing at the same time.
(19:12):
Even if you have radios anddigital networks and all this
stuff, putting all thatinformation together, which I
think is commonly known astargeting in the army
environment, is a lot of work.
Dozens of people sitting aroundmaps and stuff, figuring it all
out with notebooks. So havingthat in software and having
access to that in remoteenvironments, it's gotta be a
challenge to get that allmoving. So that's what that is
(19:34):
basically, if I
J-F Morel (19:34):
understand correctly. That's the goal of the project.
And the role of DRDC into thisis once again trying to help the
project team define how this canbe done. So we can apply
scientific knowledge that isquite varied. Once again, it
includes people with abackground in computer science
and engineering, politicalscience and various other
domains as well.
(19:55):
Trying to understand how thisinformation can be put together
and then take into account allthis variety of data that can be
collected so you have at the endof it the most efficient
decision.
Capt Orton (20:09):
User accessibility is something that can't be
overrated because a lot ofsoldiers spend a lot of time
learning all sorts of things,how to drive vehicles, how to do
maintenance on turrets, weaponmaintenance, drill, leadership,
personnel administration,coordinating attacks, and all of
the stuff. And there's only somuch time in your day that you
can spend becoming a subjectmatter expert on some software
(20:29):
or whatever, so it has to beuser accessible. You can't spend
weeks weeks weeks training onsomething because there's other
things happening. Becoming asubject matter expert in command
line interfaces is not somethingyou can just do. So having
somebody present you with apiece of equipment that's easy
to use, that you can just lookat and immediately, you know, k.
This is the range for myartillery. This is my range for
(20:51):
my tanks. This is my range forthis. Everything displaying on
one page could be really handy.But, otherwise, it's markers
and, like, hours and hours ofdrawing and figuring it all out.
So having access to that andthen handy dandy little tablet
or whatever can really make adifference between spending 17
hours figuring something out in27 minutes.
J-F Morel (21:10):
Yeah. You're absolutely right there. And we
often are able also to providethat type of advice by,
supporting exercise in variousways by sending scientists, for
example, to be, observers inexercise and providing some
advice as to how we can get themost out of it in the future and
how to, help design the mostefficient synthetic training
(21:32):
environment. So this is also keyin terms of the the scientific
advice that we can provide.
Capt Orton (21:38):
You know, I feel like one of the challenges of
doing this podcast in particularis there's a lot of things that
are being worked on that wecan't necessarily talk about
because they're classified atdifferent levels.
But are there any interestingthings that soldiers would be
interested in now that you'reworking on that you can talk
about?
J-F Morel (21:53):
Oh, there's lots of things that, I would like to to
talk about more, but I can on apodcast setting. But one
capability in one area ofresearch that, we are involved
in that is really prettyinteresting in terms of,
applications and prettyimportant is high energy
weapons, essentially lasersthat, will help address a whole
(22:13):
range of issues. So we areworking on right now the
application of lasers forcounter improvised explosive
devices, for example, usinglasers to detonate explosives in
a more efficient manner. It'salso a key application that we
can see to address the counterUAS threat. It's not easy to
shoot down these drones that yousee everywhere that are coming
(22:35):
up.
They they can be very small,very mobile, very rapid, and it
might be one of the keyapplication is having, high
energy weapons as a way ofdefeating this threat. So this
is an area of inquiry that weare absolutely pursuing within
DRDC. So the science is wellunderstood now. The issue is one
of how do you transform thisinto an operational capability.
Capt Orton (22:58):
Yeah. The first challenge is to figure out how
to do it. Then the secondchallenge is to figure out how
to build it.
J-F Morel (23:03):
Exactly. So you need high power sources, lots of
power, and you need also somevery refined optics as well to
build your systems. So all ofthis needs to be put together in
the right way to have the effectthat you need on the
battlefield.
Capt Orton (23:16):
I've also heard some pretty cool innovations in the
space of night vision wherethings like augmented reality
are coming into place tohighlight items and things like
that. For those that don't know,I guess, augmented reality is
kind of an overlay, like you seealmost in science fiction where
it identifies things and tellsyou what they are or whatever. I
imagine that's also happeningsomewhere deep in a lab
(23:37):
somewhere.
J-F Morel (23:38):
Absolutely. This is something that we are involved
in as well. And just tounderstand it, think about any
virtual reality headsets thatyou can buy just for fun right
now, right? To play video gamesor or all of this. So it's a
little bit the same and applythese same principles
essentially to night vision forthe battlefield.
But then there's thetechnological aspect that goes
(23:59):
into it that is very interestingand very important but soon
after there's also how theoperator will react with this
capability. So we are also doingstudies on okay can you wear
this for a long time? Is itsomething that will create for
example sickness?
Capt Orton (24:18):
Ah yeah motion sickness.
J-F Morel (24:19):
Motion sickness or other limiting factors frankly
for an operator in theater. Ifyou put something that gives you
wonderful 3D pictures and andall of that, but you can only
wear it five minutes at a time,it's not an advantage.
Capt Orton (24:32):
Well, there's also the size piece. I mean, I I
think pretty much any soldiersuse a night vision monocular at
some point in time was walkingthrough the bushes and almost
have their head taken offbecause the thing sticks out and
it gets caught on everything. Sothere's design and dimensions
that also need to be taken intoaccount. Absolutely. Can't just
be walking around with a giantVR headset on all the time.
J-F Morel (24:52):
Exactly. So our role is essentially trying to prove
the concept, developing the theprototypes that can then be
further developed by industry.
Capt Orton (25:01):
So, you know, the ballast space is pretty big,
pretty complex. There's a lot ofdifferent technologies that are
coming out. What directionshould we be looking in in order
to make sure that we have thebest gear to fight for the
future?
J-F Morel (25:12):
Yeah. There's many areas of science that are
actually attracting a lot ofattention, not only from us at
DRDC, but also from many of ourallies. One area that I would
suggest we need to invest in andlook into for the future is
synthetic biology. This isreally to simplify the design
and the building of biologicalelements that do not exist in
(25:37):
nature. And the engineeringpower and new development in
biology now allow us to reallycreate biological systems and
elements that can really have agame changing effect on on
capabilities.
You can think about, forexample, new biological elements
that would greatly enhance orprovide new ways of sensing,
(26:00):
threats in the environment.Plants that can change color, as
an example, if toxic gas isreleased or things of that
nature. This is an area thatmany of our allies are
considering as absolutelyessential to look into for,
defense capabilities in an areathat I'm convinced we need to
invest in as well.
Capt Orton (26:21):
Yeah. I heard about, plants that, change color when
there's land mines underneaththem and things like that, which
is pretty interesting. Indeed.Yeah. And pretty useful
especially given the bigchallenges of battlefield
cleanup which that's the thingthat's always ongoing.
J-F Morel (26:33):
That's an area of research that will be by all
account massive in the next fewdecades and that really are
promising a lot in terms of,defense capabilities.
Capt Orton (26:44):
That's very cool. Science is booming.
J-F Morel (26:46):
Yes, indeed.
Capt Orton (26:48):
Thanks for, coming on the Podcast.
J-F Morel (26:50):
Thank you. It was a real pleasure to be with you
today.
Capt Orton (26:52):
I appreciate your time.
J-F Morel (26:53):
Thanks.
Alright.
Capt Orton (26:54):
Well, that was Jean Francois Maurel, who's the
director general research anddevelopment, science and
engineering at DRDC. And I'mCaptain Adam Orton for the
Canadian Army Podcast.
Orton out.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!