November 6, 2024 • 21 mins
The Canadian Army’s new Light Tactical Vehicle (LTV) is already making trails in Latvia. But why did we get it, and what can it do? Find out from the source, Major Samir Khelil, who is the LTV Project Director. He answers many of the questions people have been asking on social media.
Feel free to contact Captain Adam Orton with any comments or questions:
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Maj Khelil (00:06):
The threat is not like in Afghanistan from
improvised explosive devicesburied in the road or in the
walls or, maybe small arms orRPGs. Now it's like you have a
couple of minutes, if notseconds, to move out of there
because you've been identifiedby a drone, and now there's a
missile coming in.
Capt Orton (00:26):
Hi. I'm Captain Adam Orton with the Canadian Army
Podcast. Recently, the CanadianArmy has picked up a new vehicle
and in classic Army style, we'venamed it with a bunch of
letters. In this case, the LTV,which means Light Tactical
Vehicle. Here to tell us whythis piece of equipment is
something people should beexcited about is Major Samir
Khelil, who is the projectdirector for the LTV.
(00:47):
Welcome to the Podcast.
Maj Khelil (00:49):
Thank you. I'm, very happy to be here. Thanks again
for the invitation.
Capt Orton (00:53):
And talking about new kit. Everybody loves that. I
know that I haven't seen toomuch of this and probably a lot
of people who are listeninghaven't seen it at all. Can you
describe what this looks like?
Maj Khelil (01:04):
What is it? So for somebody, in their house that,
close their eyes, they canpicture a vehicle based on the
Chevy Colorado ZR2 , which is acommercial vehicle. Remove the
doors, remove the roof, a rollcage, big tires painted in
green, and the most importantthing, 9 seats. That's the
(01:26):
personal variant. We have thecargo variant with 4 seats,
maybe 5 seats, and a cargo areain the back.
You can add on top of that,weapon mounts on the side, you
can have weapon mounts on top ofit, and you can have at some
point in the future weaponmounts in the cargo area, and
even a weapon turret. So I thinkthis is the best way to describe
(01:50):
the vehicle. Commercial basedwith weapon system, no doors, no
roof, and, a lot of off roadcapability. A lot.
Capt Orton (01:59):
So that's what we're getting, but why do we actually
need this vehicle?
Maj Khelil (02:04):
This vehicle is being implemented in the system
at this time. The purpose is tofill a capability gap. In the
system we have different kind ofvehicles, but we noticed that we
had a gap specifically relatedto a complex terrain. We needed
a vehicle to allow the lightforces, soldiers to, be able to
(02:25):
bridge the distance in complexterrain. There's one thing to
insert from point A to point Bon foot, and it's another thing
to have a vehicle capable ofcrossing small obstacles and to
being inserted in a certain areawith all your energy to, to do
the actions, on the objective.
Capt Orton (02:44):
So maybe before we get into additional details on
this, maybe we can quickly talkabout what light forces are.
Right? What is light infantry?
Maj Khelil (02:54):
So when we talk about the infantry, the role of
the infantry is to close anddestroy the enemy by day and by
night in all weather conditions.Knowing that, that we have
different method of insertion,we can do air mobile insertion,
we can do ground insertion. And,when we talk about ground
insertion, we notice that thelight infantry soldiers, they
(03:16):
carry a lot of weight. We talkabout ammunition, weapon, water,
ration, and sometimes, you know,extra equipment. So that's a
lot.
The rucksack can, can weigh upto 120 lbs, if not more. I'm not
saying that everybody carriesthat weight, but a lot of
people, carry that weight. Andthe fact is you need all that
(03:39):
equipment and food and rationsto be able to last in the field
for a couple of days, to beindependent okay? The less
movement you do in the area ofoperation, the more likely
you'll be able to survive, notbe detected.
Capt Orton (03:53):
And so this vehicle is there to support those
activities. So what scenarioswould you use it in? What what
does it get used for?
Maj Khelil (04:01):
We have 2 variants. We have the 9 seater, variant
that can be used to transporttroop to a certain point of
insertion. They disembark fromthe vehicle and carry on the
rest of the insertion on foot.Okay? You don't want to get the
vehicle too close to the enemy,especially, you know, when you
do an insertion at 3 in themorning.
The engine of the vehicle willgive your position away. Sounds
(04:23):
travel very far at night. Sothat's a way of doing things for
the 9 seater. We have the cargovariant. We have the 9 seater
variant that we can mount someweapons on top of them.
They can be used as cutoffs.They can be used to transport
the weapon system, dismount theweapon system on specific
locations. One thing that isimportant also to notice for the
(04:45):
light infantry forces, it's onething to get in the field, to
get in a area of operation, toconduct your mission, but now
you're tired, you're exhausted.Maybe some, people are injured,
and now you need to extract fromthat area. And the last thing
you know is to be slow in theextraction phase.
So, those vehicle will allow usto get our guys and girls back
(05:07):
home, in a safely and timelymanner.
Capt Orton (05:10):
Yeah. And that last bit is truly the most vulnerable
section. Absolutely. Maybeyou're low on ammo. You're
transporting casualties.
Sometimes on foot, if you don'thave additional mobility
support, that is one of the mostvulnerable phases of an
operation. And even if you havea reserve on hand or something
to support you, a quick reactionforce, you're still in a
vulnerable state at that point.
Maj Khelil (05:30):
Absolutely. And I would add, like, yeah, you can
rely on a quick reaction force.We we call it QRF, the reserve,
and all that. But the questionis, are they gonna show up on
time, or is the commander ableto commit those reserve to
support you? The fact is, whenyou're doing the extraction from
experience, people are lookingat the ground, and they can't
(05:51):
just wait to get back home and,you know, just take a shower,
clean their weapon and you knowwhat I mean?
Capt Orton (05:58):
So we know why we need the LTV now, but what
capabilities does the LTVactually have that don't already
exist, like, in the G Wagon, forexample?
Maj Khelil (06:08):
Yeah. We can talk about, like, the G Wagon.
No, the G Wagons don't have thesame payload. We cannot carry as
much kit, more rations and allthat to sustain ourselves for
more than, like, what, 24 hour.
Mhmm. So G Wagon is like whatyou have, 4 soldiers, weapon
system, ammo, and now you haveto choose between rations and
(06:30):
water, and you have to make somehard choices at some point. The
thing here, when you refer to,capability and all that, what
that vehicle brings to thetable, in a simple sentence, it
allow us to sustain ourselvesand to be autonomous for a
longer period in the field, thusavoiding or trying to avoid
(06:51):
detection and minimizing themovement of resupplies.
Capt Orton (06:55):
Yeah. For those who haven't experienced or witnessed
a field resupply, you know, thatin itself can be a big
challenge. Sometimes really bigtrucks moving around convoys,
they don't necessarily have theability to go off road. So,
again, it's one of thosevulnerable states where the
structure you're with, whetherit's a platoon or a company or
whatever, has to kinda take apause, take a defensive posture,
(07:15):
wait for the trucks to show up,hope nobody notices, or at least
you can grab the stuff in atimely fashion. And, you know,
that's a tricky thing, and itsounds like what you're talking
about is now you have moreoptions in terms of routes,
locations, speed, time.
That's kind of the trade off.
Maj Khelil (07:30):
Yeah. Absolutely. And, one point important to note
here is, I don't wanna get, toomuch philosophical here, but the
nature of war is changing rightnow. Yeah. We don't necessarily
own the sky, meaning that thereare some, air assets in the
skies.
That our, adversary used to,identify us, target us, and
(07:51):
probably hit us if that's theirplan. Or they can just follow
you, and you will lead them to abigger target, such as the rear
echelon. So they just need tofollow, where that vehicle is
going back so they can identifyyour resupply. So if you cut off
the resupply, now we're in avery difficult position in the
front. Meaning that right now,that vehicle allows us to
(08:12):
survive through mobility.
You complete your operation, andyou get out of there. The threat
is not coming from, like inAfghanistan from IEDs,
improvised explosive devicesburied in the road or in the
walls or whatnot, or, maybesmall arms or RPGs. Now it's
like you have a couple ofminutes, if not seconds, to move
(08:34):
out of there because you've beenidentified by a drone, and now
there's a missile coming in. Ormaybe the drone will just have
explosive on it, and from a topattack here you go. So mobility
is very important.
We cannot afford to be stuck ona black trail and now have to
disembark or cross load all theequipment and all that. And,
(08:56):
from what we saw in the, inCalvary training, the ICT
conducted in Edmonton lately,that vehicle, it can recover
very quickly from being stuck.
Capt Orton (09:07):
And so therein lies the the nature of warfare in
terms of vehicles, which WE'vetalked about, like, on armored
podcast in the past and such,which is it's that trade off of
mobility, protection, andfirepower. And as technology
advances, it's easier to get alittle bit more of everything.
But at the end of the day, ifyou want a heavy armor, it's
gonna be slower. Or if you wanta heavy weapons platform, it may
(09:30):
be slower, and you're constantlytrading that ability to move
quickly and easily throughspaces, easily transportable
stuff. You know, tanks can'tjust be picked up by a Chinook
or something.
And you're constantly makingdecisions, and it's like, what
do we have available to us to beable to execute missions?
Maj Khelil (09:47):
Actually, I saw some comments and I heard some
comments left and right aboutballistic protection. Mhmm.
Yeah. You can have a vehiclefully armored and protected and
all that. But in my opinion, forthe light infantry forces, this
is not suited for them toaccomplish their mission.
Let's take the example of theCanadian forces. When we see a
(10:10):
vehicle, are you gonna engage inadversary or enemy tank with a 9
millimeter? Absolutely not.You're gonna use the proper
caliber to address the propertrip. Mhmm.
Okay? And you're not gonna shoota TOW missile on a soft skin.
That's an overkill. So you tryto use the appropriate weapon on
the appropriate target. All thatto say that we can improve the
(10:32):
vehicle, put heavy doors,armored doors, and all that.
The adversary will just increasewhat kind of weapon they will
use. So right now, you guys areusing a light tactical vehicle
that is fully armored. We'regonna use a heavier missile or a
more penetrating missile system.But the thing here is if you're
able to move quickly, you're noteven there when, you know,
(10:54):
they're gonna confirm or,positive ID you. The second part
of it is, air mobility,transportability.
That is very important. When weknow that a lot of operation
conducted by the light infantryforces are the insertion is
through air assets, air mobileoperation, that vehicle needs to
be as light as possible in orderto be carried by Chinooks. Okay.
(11:18):
We don't want to spend a wholeday going back and forth with
helicopters to insert theplatoon. So now we're able to
get 2 vehicle in a Chinook.
We can sling load the vehicle,and, when we get on the ground,
the helicopter lands on theground. You roll out the
vehicle, put your weapon systemon top of it, and you're good to
go.
Capt Orton (11:38):
It's funny you bring up the Internet comments
watching the videos and justseeing what people have to say
about it. Right? And a lot ofpeople have highlighted the,
let's call it, cover aspect ofit because there's armor which
protects you, but even there's,like, protection from the
elements and all of that stuff.My first thought was just, like,
we have snowmobiles. You'renever covered in that.
You're doing Arctic operations.And then also, if you're
(11:59):
dismounted, the weather is stillthere. Like, what consideration
has been given about that?
Maj Khelil (12:03):
I'm not gonna say that, yeah, we considered every
element possible that theuniverse can throw at us. That
is not true. But the cabinenclosure was considered. The
heater was considered. Ballisticprotection was considered.
But we had to factor in otherelements, like I mentioned
before, for the, ballisticprotection, the weight versus,
(12:25):
you know, the consequences onthe air asset transportability.
When we talk about cabins and,head cover, head cover, it will
be important in the project,especially to protect the
soldiers from the brass,especially if we use, weapons on
top of it. For the, cabinenclosure, I'm a little bit
mitigated, and from what I heardin Edmonton, that's a nice to
(12:48):
have, Okay. Of course. But thepositive comment that I heard,
it's like, anyway, we're used todo, operations on foot, and now
it's just a way to get therequicker and to get back quicker.
I agree, but it is already takeninto consideration, but that
comes with a price. You know? Sowe have to set priorities of
(13:09):
what we're gonna get. Are wegonna get winches or cabin
enclosures? Knowing that thelight infantry forces are
trained and equipped to operateand to sustain themselves in the
outdoors in all, weatherconditions.
So the priority to reinforce themobility, requirement is to get
(13:31):
some winches on those vehiclesto be able to recover themselves
and not to have, like, 2 vehiclerecovering each other and to be
static and to be targeted at thesame time. So that's one thing.
The heater, in my opinion, theindustry is not there yet. We
saw what they had to propose. Ihad some questions and concerns,
and the heater, thing is notready.
(13:53):
My last point about that is I'vebeen, giving courses in the
Arctic. Mhmm. From experience,you know, if you are in a
vehicle that is fully heated,okay, and you, dismount from
that vehicle in a minus 10 orminus 20 temperature
environment, you're gonna gethurt. Yep. So we we had
(14:15):
different things to mitigatethat.
When you get in a vehicle, youopen the windows, you remove
some clothing, you open up yourcoat, you remove your toque. So
when you disembark, you arefully focused on the mission and
not being hurt. So, that's onething, and, funny thing I
remember back in Basic inGagetown when we were conducting
(14:35):
some, you know, basic trainings.Yeah.
The instructors, they looked atus and they say, no, you guys
are not focused. It's been only10 minutes, we're patrolling,
and everybody is trying to avoidthat waterhole. Everything was
based on keeping your feet dry,So what they come up with is
before every patrol, you seethat, pot of water, everybody go
(14:59):
through it. Now your feet arewet, now you can focus on the
patrol. I'm not saying thatbeing cold is a must or being
wet is a must.
Okay. We're gonna address thatsituation, but it is not the
priority right now.
Capt Orton (15:12):
Well, and it's funny. I went through the exact
same thing. We loaded trucksfully equipped, like, all our
winter gear on Yeah. And then wewent out during basic. It was
the exact same thing.
And then you're out there, andnow it's minus 30, and you've
been sweating loading your gear.
Maj Khelil (15:25):
Absolutely.
Capt Orton (15:26):
And everybody learned a really valuable lesson
about that, which is, hey, youhave to manage your stuff. And
that's exactly what you'retalking about is staying in the
back of a fully heated vehicle.It's great. When you're cold and
you need it, it's great.
Maj Khelil (15:37):
Yep.
Capt Orton (15:37):
But, also, we learn and live without it. There's
people driving around in LAVsthat have their full upper
bodies outside, driving aroundShilo Manitoba probably in the
next couple of months in minus40. They got their gear on.
They're alright.
Maj Khelil (15:49):
Yeah. They're gonna be okay. I can personally,
relate to that. I'm gonna speakfor me. I was in the back of a
LAV fully heated and all that.
And when it was time todismount, you know, dismount
dismount and, carry your stuff,I was like, oh, man. I just have
another minute. It's so warm inhere and all that. So it's the
human nature. It's totallynormal, but, yep.
Capt Orton (16:12):
This is the real podcast stuff now. Yeah. It's
like, I'm so comfortable backhere. Don't wanna do war. Maybe
nap.
So we've got a few of thesealready. Clearly, we've got a
plan for it. It's good to go.What happens next? Do we need to
do more trials?
Like, what's coming down thepipe?
Maj Khelil (16:28):
You know, I heard some comments about, oh, that
vehicle is being tested by theUS forces, so we don't need to
test it. We can just buy it andall that. It doesn't work like
that. Okay. Well, we have ourown requirements.
We have our own standards.There's the Canadian way of
doing business. And, actually,right now, we acquired that
vehicle, and, we will test it.We will test it in Trenton for
(16:51):
the transportability with someChinooks. We'll test it in
Blleville for the mobility and,to see the limitations, and
we'll send a vehicle or 2 inValcartier, with DRDC to conduct
further testing and to see whatthey have to say about, weapons
integration.
So, it's going fast, but we needto do, things, the Canadian way.
Capt Orton (17:16):
So it seems to me based off of kind of a lot of
that you've set up to this pointis what we know is that we want
something that moves fast, hasgood mobility, and we're getting
that platform. But it is yet tobe seen what's gonna be attached
to the platform. Like, you said,weapons integration is not quite
there yet. I'm still looking ataccessories, like heaters and
(17:36):
stuff like that. So there's somesort of future upgrades coming
down the pipe.
Maj Khelil (17:40):
Maybe I expressed myself the wrong way about,
weapons mounts and all that. We,we have swing arms to put, like,
C9s , 5.56 caliber, C6. We havemounts for the .50 cal, the
heavy machine gun. What is notready and, what is still in
development is the weaponsturret, and the mounts for the
(18:03):
anti tank guided missile that wewill use. Actually, we have, the
TOW system, and there's aproject to get another missile
system.
So we need to take a look at itto make sure that our mounts
will fit both.
Capt Orton (18:16):
Right.
Maj Khelil (18:16):
You know, we don't want to just focus on one system
and down the road, anotherproject will deliver a different
weapon system that we don't havethe mounts. So, yep.
Capt Orton (18:26):
This seems like in a way by design, somewhat modular
that it can be used for allsorts of purposes, sometimes
purposes that you might not evenhave predicted yet. So at the
end of the day, considering somekind of future proofing.
Maj Khelil (18:39):
Yeah. That's correct. And one point to note
here is all that is not done inisolation. You know, we're in
contact with the Infantry Corps,with the light infantry
battalions, with the industry,with the other partners. And the
latest comment that was broughtto the project team by the RSM
of 3 PPCLI is we have way moreC6s in the system than the .50
(19:01):
cal.
Thus, we need a mount on top ofthe vehicle that can accommodate
both. Right. So now we'relooking at the hybrid weapons
mount, on top of it. You know,we're very open to feedback,
comments, and all that becausewe don't have all the knowledge
of the universe.
Capt Orton (19:19):
Yeah. It would be nice if we did. So who's getting
this? Let's talk about who'sactually getting these vehicles.
Maj Khelil (19:27):
Yeah. So the first phase for LTV is dedicated
for Op REASSURANCE, up to a 108tactical, vehicles. The main
focus, the main goal that we,achieved to have the vehicle in
Latvia ready to go for the bigNATO exercise that will be
conducted a little bit laterthis fall. And the phase 2, we
(19:50):
intend to acquire up to 222vehicles plus 33 trailers
that will be distributed across,the light infantry battalions.
Capt Orton (20:00):
So what's the anticipated delivery date for
units to actually receive theseto use them outside of, you
know, being in Latvia?
Maj Khelil (20:07):
It's gonna take a couple of years. I just want to
manage the expectations becauseright now, we are in the process
of finishing trials, collectingdata, and, having feedback given
to us to communicate thosefeedback to the industry and to
see exactly what we want. And,it's not gonna happen overnight
to get those improvements done.
Capt Orton (20:28):
Well, honestly, really interesting in seeing
what happens next with all ofthat. Sounds like some cool
trials are happening, and peopleare going to do some really neat
stuff with it in Latvia. And,looking forward to seeing how it
all goes out.
Thanks so much for taking thetime to talk to us about it.
Maj Khelil (20:41):
Yep. Thank you for, your interest in the project.
Capt Orton (20:45):
That was Major Samir Khalil, who is the project
director for the LTV, and I amCaptain Orton for the Canadian
Army Podcast. Orton out.
The threat is not like in Afghanistan from
improvised explosive devicesburied in the road or in the
walls or, maybe small arms orRPGs. Now it's like you have a
couple of minutes, if notseconds, to move out of there
because you've been identifiedby a drone, and now there's a
missile coming in.
Capt Orton (00:26):
Hi. I'm Captain Adam Orton with the Canadian Army
Podcast. Recently, the CanadianArmy has picked up a new vehicle
and in classic Army style, we'venamed it with a bunch of
letters. In this case, the LTV,which means Light Tactical
Vehicle. Here to tell us whythis piece of equipment is
something people should beexcited about is Major Samir
Khelil, who is the projectdirector for the LTV.
(00:47):
Welcome to the Podcast.
Maj Khelil (00:49):
Thank you. I'm, very happy to be here. Thanks again
for the invitation.
Capt Orton (00:53):
And talking about new kit. Everybody loves that. I
know that I haven't seen toomuch of this and probably a lot
of people who are listeninghaven't seen it at all. Can you
describe what this looks like?
Maj Khelil (01:04):
What is it? So for somebody, in their house that,
close their eyes, they canpicture a vehicle based on the
Chevy Colorado ZR2 , which is acommercial vehicle. Remove the
doors, remove the roof, a rollcage, big tires painted in
green, and the most importantthing, 9 seats. That's the
(01:26):
personal variant. We have thecargo variant with 4 seats,
maybe 5 seats, and a cargo areain the back.
You can add on top of that,weapon mounts on the side, you
can have weapon mounts on top ofit, and you can have at some
point in the future weaponmounts in the cargo area, and
even a weapon turret. So I thinkthis is the best way to describe
(01:50):
the vehicle. Commercial basedwith weapon system, no doors, no
roof, and, a lot of off roadcapability. A lot.
Capt Orton (01:59):
So that's what we're getting, but why do we actually
need this vehicle?
Maj Khelil (02:04):
This vehicle is being implemented in the system
at this time. The purpose is tofill a capability gap. In the
system we have different kind ofvehicles, but we noticed that we
had a gap specifically relatedto a complex terrain. We needed
a vehicle to allow the lightforces, soldiers to, be able to
(02:25):
bridge the distance in complexterrain. There's one thing to
insert from point A to point Bon foot, and it's another thing
to have a vehicle capable ofcrossing small obstacles and to
being inserted in a certain areawith all your energy to, to do
the actions, on the objective.
Capt Orton (02:44):
So maybe before we get into additional details on
this, maybe we can quickly talkabout what light forces are.
Right? What is light infantry?
Maj Khelil (02:54):
So when we talk about the infantry, the role of
the infantry is to close anddestroy the enemy by day and by
night in all weather conditions.Knowing that, that we have
different method of insertion,we can do air mobile insertion,
we can do ground insertion. And,when we talk about ground
insertion, we notice that thelight infantry soldiers, they
(03:16):
carry a lot of weight. We talkabout ammunition, weapon, water,
ration, and sometimes, you know,extra equipment. So that's a
lot.
The rucksack can, can weigh upto 120 lbs, if not more. I'm not
saying that everybody carriesthat weight, but a lot of
people, carry that weight. Andthe fact is you need all that
(03:39):
equipment and food and rationsto be able to last in the field
for a couple of days, to beindependent okay? The less
movement you do in the area ofoperation, the more likely
you'll be able to survive, notbe detected.
Capt Orton (03:53):
And so this vehicle is there to support those
activities. So what scenarioswould you use it in? What what
does it get used for?
Maj Khelil (04:01):
We have 2 variants. We have the 9 seater, variant
that can be used to transporttroop to a certain point of
insertion. They disembark fromthe vehicle and carry on the
rest of the insertion on foot.Okay? You don't want to get the
vehicle too close to the enemy,especially, you know, when you
do an insertion at 3 in themorning.
The engine of the vehicle willgive your position away. Sounds
(04:23):
travel very far at night. Sothat's a way of doing things for
the 9 seater. We have the cargovariant. We have the 9 seater
variant that we can mount someweapons on top of them.
They can be used as cutoffs.They can be used to transport
the weapon system, dismount theweapon system on specific
locations. One thing that isimportant also to notice for the
(04:45):
light infantry forces, it's onething to get in the field, to
get in a area of operation, toconduct your mission, but now
you're tired, you're exhausted.Maybe some, people are injured,
and now you need to extract fromthat area. And the last thing
you know is to be slow in theextraction phase.
So, those vehicle will allow usto get our guys and girls back
(05:07):
home, in a safely and timelymanner.
Capt Orton (05:10):
Yeah. And that last bit is truly the most vulnerable
section. Absolutely. Maybeyou're low on ammo. You're
transporting casualties.
Sometimes on foot, if you don'thave additional mobility
support, that is one of the mostvulnerable phases of an
operation. And even if you havea reserve on hand or something
to support you, a quick reactionforce, you're still in a
vulnerable state at that point.
Maj Khelil (05:30):
Absolutely. And I would add, like, yeah, you can
rely on a quick reaction force.We we call it QRF, the reserve,
and all that. But the questionis, are they gonna show up on
time, or is the commander ableto commit those reserve to
support you? The fact is, whenyou're doing the extraction from
experience, people are lookingat the ground, and they can't
(05:51):
just wait to get back home and,you know, just take a shower,
clean their weapon and you knowwhat I mean?
Capt Orton (05:58):
So we know why we need the LTV now, but what
capabilities does the LTVactually have that don't already
exist, like, in the G Wagon, forexample?
Maj Khelil (06:08):
Yeah. We can talk about, like, the G Wagon.
No, the G Wagons don't have thesame payload. We cannot carry as
much kit, more rations and allthat to sustain ourselves for
more than, like, what, 24 hour.
Mhmm. So G Wagon is like whatyou have, 4 soldiers, weapon
system, ammo, and now you haveto choose between rations and
(06:30):
water, and you have to make somehard choices at some point. The
thing here, when you refer to,capability and all that, what
that vehicle brings to thetable, in a simple sentence, it
allow us to sustain ourselvesand to be autonomous for a
longer period in the field, thusavoiding or trying to avoid
(06:51):
detection and minimizing themovement of resupplies.
Capt Orton (06:55):
Yeah. For those who haven't experienced or witnessed
a field resupply, you know, thatin itself can be a big
challenge. Sometimes really bigtrucks moving around convoys,
they don't necessarily have theability to go off road. So,
again, it's one of thosevulnerable states where the
structure you're with, whetherit's a platoon or a company or
whatever, has to kinda take apause, take a defensive posture,
(07:15):
wait for the trucks to show up,hope nobody notices, or at least
you can grab the stuff in atimely fashion. And, you know,
that's a tricky thing, and itsounds like what you're talking
about is now you have moreoptions in terms of routes,
locations, speed, time.
That's kind of the trade off.
Maj Khelil (07:30):
Yeah. Absolutely. And, one point important to note
here is, I don't wanna get, toomuch philosophical here, but the
nature of war is changing rightnow. Yeah. We don't necessarily
own the sky, meaning that thereare some, air assets in the
skies.
That our, adversary used to,identify us, target us, and
(07:51):
probably hit us if that's theirplan. Or they can just follow
you, and you will lead them to abigger target, such as the rear
echelon. So they just need tofollow, where that vehicle is
going back so they can identifyyour resupply. So if you cut off
the resupply, now we're in avery difficult position in the
front. Meaning that right now,that vehicle allows us to
(08:12):
survive through mobility.
You complete your operation, andyou get out of there. The threat
is not coming from, like inAfghanistan from IEDs,
improvised explosive devicesburied in the road or in the
walls or whatnot, or, maybesmall arms or RPGs. Now it's
like you have a couple ofminutes, if not seconds, to move
(08:34):
out of there because you've beenidentified by a drone, and now
there's a missile coming in. Ormaybe the drone will just have
explosive on it, and from a topattack here you go. So mobility
is very important.
We cannot afford to be stuck ona black trail and now have to
disembark or cross load all theequipment and all that. And,
(08:56):
from what we saw in the, inCalvary training, the ICT
conducted in Edmonton lately,that vehicle, it can recover
very quickly from being stuck.
Capt Orton (09:07):
And so therein lies the the nature of warfare in
terms of vehicles, which WE'vetalked about, like, on armored
podcast in the past and such,which is it's that trade off of
mobility, protection, andfirepower. And as technology
advances, it's easier to get alittle bit more of everything.
But at the end of the day, ifyou want a heavy armor, it's
gonna be slower. Or if you wanta heavy weapons platform, it may
(09:30):
be slower, and you're constantlytrading that ability to move
quickly and easily throughspaces, easily transportable
stuff. You know, tanks can'tjust be picked up by a Chinook
or something.
And you're constantly makingdecisions, and it's like, what
do we have available to us to beable to execute missions?
Maj Khelil (09:47):
Actually, I saw some comments and I heard some
comments left and right aboutballistic protection. Mhmm.
Yeah. You can have a vehiclefully armored and protected and
all that. But in my opinion, forthe light infantry forces, this
is not suited for them toaccomplish their mission.
Let's take the example of theCanadian forces. When we see a
(10:10):
vehicle, are you gonna engage inadversary or enemy tank with a 9
millimeter? Absolutely not.You're gonna use the proper
caliber to address the propertrip. Mhmm.
Okay? And you're not gonna shoota TOW missile on a soft skin.
That's an overkill. So you tryto use the appropriate weapon on
the appropriate target. All thatto say that we can improve the
(10:32):
vehicle, put heavy doors,armored doors, and all that.
The adversary will just increasewhat kind of weapon they will
use. So right now, you guys areusing a light tactical vehicle
that is fully armored. We'regonna use a heavier missile or a
more penetrating missile system.But the thing here is if you're
able to move quickly, you're noteven there when, you know,
(10:54):
they're gonna confirm or,positive ID you. The second part
of it is, air mobility,transportability.
That is very important. When weknow that a lot of operation
conducted by the light infantryforces are the insertion is
through air assets, air mobileoperation, that vehicle needs to
be as light as possible in orderto be carried by Chinooks. Okay.
(11:18):
We don't want to spend a wholeday going back and forth with
helicopters to insert theplatoon. So now we're able to
get 2 vehicle in a Chinook.
We can sling load the vehicle,and, when we get on the ground,
the helicopter lands on theground. You roll out the
vehicle, put your weapon systemon top of it, and you're good to
go.
Capt Orton (11:38):
It's funny you bring up the Internet comments
watching the videos and justseeing what people have to say
about it. Right? And a lot ofpeople have highlighted the,
let's call it, cover aspect ofit because there's armor which
protects you, but even there's,like, protection from the
elements and all of that stuff.My first thought was just, like,
we have snowmobiles. You'renever covered in that.
You're doing Arctic operations.And then also, if you're
(11:59):
dismounted, the weather is stillthere. Like, what consideration
has been given about that?
Maj Khelil (12:03):
I'm not gonna say that, yeah, we considered every
element possible that theuniverse can throw at us. That
is not true. But the cabinenclosure was considered. The
heater was considered. Ballisticprotection was considered.
But we had to factor in otherelements, like I mentioned
before, for the, ballisticprotection, the weight versus,
(12:25):
you know, the consequences onthe air asset transportability.
When we talk about cabins and,head cover, head cover, it will
be important in the project,especially to protect the
soldiers from the brass,especially if we use, weapons on
top of it. For the, cabinenclosure, I'm a little bit
mitigated, and from what I heardin Edmonton, that's a nice to
(12:48):
have, Okay. Of course. But thepositive comment that I heard,
it's like, anyway, we're used todo, operations on foot, and now
it's just a way to get therequicker and to get back quicker.
I agree, but it is already takeninto consideration, but that
comes with a price. You know? Sowe have to set priorities of
(13:09):
what we're gonna get. Are wegonna get winches or cabin
enclosures? Knowing that thelight infantry forces are
trained and equipped to operateand to sustain themselves in the
outdoors in all, weatherconditions.
So the priority to reinforce themobility, requirement is to get
(13:31):
some winches on those vehiclesto be able to recover themselves
and not to have, like, 2 vehiclerecovering each other and to be
static and to be targeted at thesame time. So that's one thing.
The heater, in my opinion, theindustry is not there yet. We
saw what they had to propose. Ihad some questions and concerns,
and the heater, thing is notready.
(13:53):
My last point about that is I'vebeen, giving courses in the
Arctic. Mhmm. From experience,you know, if you are in a
vehicle that is fully heated,okay, and you, dismount from
that vehicle in a minus 10 orminus 20 temperature
environment, you're gonna gethurt. Yep. So we we had
(14:15):
different things to mitigatethat.
When you get in a vehicle, youopen the windows, you remove
some clothing, you open up yourcoat, you remove your toque. So
when you disembark, you arefully focused on the mission and
not being hurt. So, that's onething, and, funny thing I
remember back in Basic inGagetown when we were conducting
(14:35):
some, you know, basic trainings.Yeah.
The instructors, they looked atus and they say, no, you guys
are not focused. It's been only10 minutes, we're patrolling,
and everybody is trying to avoidthat waterhole. Everything was
based on keeping your feet dry,So what they come up with is
before every patrol, you seethat, pot of water, everybody go
(14:59):
through it. Now your feet arewet, now you can focus on the
patrol. I'm not saying thatbeing cold is a must or being
wet is a must.
Okay. We're gonna address thatsituation, but it is not the
priority right now.
Capt Orton (15:12):
Well, and it's funny. I went through the exact
same thing. We loaded trucksfully equipped, like, all our
winter gear on Yeah. And then wewent out during basic. It was
the exact same thing.
And then you're out there, andnow it's minus 30, and you've
been sweating loading your gear.
Maj Khelil (15:25):
Absolutely.
Capt Orton (15:26):
And everybody learned a really valuable lesson
about that, which is, hey, youhave to manage your stuff. And
that's exactly what you'retalking about is staying in the
back of a fully heated vehicle.It's great. When you're cold and
you need it, it's great.
Maj Khelil (15:37):
Yep.
Capt Orton (15:37):
But, also, we learn and live without it. There's
people driving around in LAVsthat have their full upper
bodies outside, driving aroundShilo Manitoba probably in the
next couple of months in minus40. They got their gear on.
They're alright.
Maj Khelil (15:49):
Yeah. They're gonna be okay. I can personally,
relate to that. I'm gonna speakfor me. I was in the back of a
LAV fully heated and all that.
And when it was time todismount, you know, dismount
dismount and, carry your stuff,I was like, oh, man. I just have
another minute. It's so warm inhere and all that. So it's the
human nature. It's totallynormal, but, yep.
Capt Orton (16:12):
This is the real podcast stuff now. Yeah. It's
like, I'm so comfortable backhere. Don't wanna do war. Maybe
nap.
So we've got a few of thesealready. Clearly, we've got a
plan for it. It's good to go.What happens next? Do we need to
do more trials?
Like, what's coming down thepipe?
Maj Khelil (16:28):
You know, I heard some comments about, oh, that
vehicle is being tested by theUS forces, so we don't need to
test it. We can just buy it andall that. It doesn't work like
that. Okay. Well, we have ourown requirements.
We have our own standards.There's the Canadian way of
doing business. And, actually,right now, we acquired that
vehicle, and, we will test it.We will test it in Trenton for
(16:51):
the transportability with someChinooks. We'll test it in
Blleville for the mobility and,to see the limitations, and
we'll send a vehicle or 2 inValcartier, with DRDC to conduct
further testing and to see whatthey have to say about, weapons
integration.
So, it's going fast, but we needto do, things, the Canadian way.
Capt Orton (17:16):
So it seems to me based off of kind of a lot of
that you've set up to this pointis what we know is that we want
something that moves fast, hasgood mobility, and we're getting
that platform. But it is yet tobe seen what's gonna be attached
to the platform. Like, you said,weapons integration is not quite
there yet. I'm still looking ataccessories, like heaters and
(17:36):
stuff like that. So there's somesort of future upgrades coming
down the pipe.
Maj Khelil (17:40):
Maybe I expressed myself the wrong way about,
weapons mounts and all that. We,we have swing arms to put, like,
C9s , 5.56 caliber, C6. We havemounts for the .50 cal, the
heavy machine gun. What is notready and, what is still in
development is the weaponsturret, and the mounts for the
(18:03):
anti tank guided missile that wewill use. Actually, we have, the
TOW system, and there's aproject to get another missile
system.
So we need to take a look at itto make sure that our mounts
will fit both.
Capt Orton (18:16):
Right.
Maj Khelil (18:16):
You know, we don't want to just focus on one system
and down the road, anotherproject will deliver a different
weapon system that we don't havethe mounts. So, yep.
Capt Orton (18:26):
This seems like in a way by design, somewhat modular
that it can be used for allsorts of purposes, sometimes
purposes that you might not evenhave predicted yet. So at the
end of the day, considering somekind of future proofing.
Maj Khelil (18:39):
Yeah. That's correct. And one point to note
here is all that is not done inisolation. You know, we're in
contact with the Infantry Corps,with the light infantry
battalions, with the industry,with the other partners. And the
latest comment that was broughtto the project team by the RSM
of 3 PPCLI is we have way moreC6s in the system than the .50
(19:01):
cal.
Thus, we need a mount on top ofthe vehicle that can accommodate
both. Right. So now we'relooking at the hybrid weapons
mount, on top of it. You know,we're very open to feedback,
comments, and all that becausewe don't have all the knowledge
of the universe.
Capt Orton (19:19):
Yeah. It would be nice if we did. So who's getting
this? Let's talk about who'sactually getting these vehicles.
Maj Khelil (19:27):
Yeah. So the first phase for LTV is dedicated
for Op REASSURANCE, up to a 108tactical, vehicles. The main
focus, the main goal that we,achieved to have the vehicle in
Latvia ready to go for the bigNATO exercise that will be
conducted a little bit laterthis fall. And the phase 2, we
(19:50):
intend to acquire up to 222vehicles plus 33 trailers
that will be distributed across,the light infantry battalions.
Capt Orton (20:00):
So what's the anticipated delivery date for
units to actually receive theseto use them outside of, you
know, being in Latvia?
Maj Khelil (20:07):
It's gonna take a couple of years. I just want to
manage the expectations becauseright now, we are in the process
of finishing trials, collectingdata, and, having feedback given
to us to communicate thosefeedback to the industry and to
see exactly what we want. And,it's not gonna happen overnight
to get those improvements done.
Capt Orton (20:28):
Well, honestly, really interesting in seeing
what happens next with all ofthat. Sounds like some cool
trials are happening, and peopleare going to do some really neat
stuff with it in Latvia. And,looking forward to seeing how it
all goes out.
Thanks so much for taking thetime to talk to us about it.
Maj Khelil (20:41):
Yep. Thank you for, your interest in the project.
Capt Orton (20:45):
That was Major Samir Khalil, who is the project
director for the LTV, and I amCaptain Orton for the Canadian
Army Podcast. Orton out.
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