July 10, 2024 • 33 mins
We all know tanks are great, but they don’t do it alone. The Royal Canadian Armoured Corps uses firepower, speed, and protection to defend and take terrain in coordination with the infantry. Colonel Fraser Auld is the Director of the Armoured Corps, and he gives the rundown on how armoured fighting vehicles fit into the bigger picture on the battlefield.
Feel free to contact Captain Adam Orton with any comments or questions:
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Col Auld (00:04):
Tanks attacking by themselves, highly vulnerable.
Infantry attacking bythemselves, highly vulnerable.
Artillery just rolling aroundwithout any other support,
highly vulnerable. It's allabout the combined arms team. If
we don't build that thingcorrectly, whatever arm is left,
frankly, it's gonna die.
Capt Orton (00:23):
Hi. I'm Captain Adam Orton with the Canadian Army
Podcast. Wherever the infantryis, there's almost always their
fire team partner, the ArmouredCorps. They bring a variety of
weapons and protection, usuallyin the form of vehicles. And
while tanks are great, there's alot more to the Armoured Corps.
Here with me today is ColonelFraser Auld, who is the director
of the Royal Canadian ArmouredCorps and he's gonna lay it all
(00:44):
down for us. Welcome to thePodcast, sir.
Col Auld (00:46):
Thanks very much. Greatly appreciate the
opportunity.
Capt Orton (00:50):
So we've already talked about tanks a fair amount
on the podcast, but modernarmour is more than just tanks.
What does the Armoured Corps ingeneral bring to the table in
the battlefield?
Col Auld (01:04):
So I think if you look back in history, and I'll and
I'll start in the past and bringus forward to the the present.
Yeah. There's always been arequirement, and military
commanders have always realizedthat they need a force that is
able to move rapidly across theground. So, of course, if you
look back several 1000 years,this was generally folks who are
(01:25):
on horses. This is typicallywhat you would call cavalry.
And so cavalry forces have beenaround for a long time, and
their their key attribute thatthey bring to battle is the
ability to move quickly acrossground. And so if you fast
forward that to kind of the 20thcentury, due to some of the
industrialization, issues,increasing weapon lethality, the
(01:46):
introduction of the machine gun,rapid firing artillery, you end
up in this space where you stillneed to be able to move rapidly
across the ground, except theseforces are now much more
vulnerable to some of these newweapon systems. And so, of
course, there's an operationalproblem that presents itself in
World War 1, which is how do webreak the stalemate? How do we
(02:06):
move over machine gun sweptterrain in a way where you're
protected? And horse mountedcavalry of old, it just doesn't
fit the bill anymore.
We still want to move quickly,but we need to do it in a
protected fashion. And so, ofcourse, you begin to see all
armies beginning to experimentwith novel ways of combining,
(02:28):
newly introduced engines, withthis idea of armoured plating.
Capt Orton (02:32):
Right.
Col Auld (02:33):
And you begin seeing the kind of introduction of some
of these tanks, which was just acode word to kind of cover up
the production of thesevehicles. But you get this idea
of protected mobility, somethingthat can move, not rapidly at
that time, but move across theterrain in a protected fashion.
And so you bring that rightforward to today where, you
know, we have much better enginetechnology. We have much better
(02:55):
designs, we have armoured forcesthat can move very quickly
across very lethal terrain underprotection, and that's really
what armoured forces bring, theability to move quickly in a
protected fashion.
And because of the platforms,you can also put a lot of
firepower onto that platform. Soyou end up with a force that
(03:15):
combines mobility withfirepower, with protection. And
a force like this that can movequickly across terrain, exploit
openings when they happen, putpressure where we need it,
that's something that armourbrings to the battlefield.
Regardless of platform, that'sreally the core function is the
ability to be agile, moverapidly, and take advantage of,
(03:36):
opportunity.
Capt Orton (03:38):
It's interesting when you're talking about the
cavalry. In my mind, Iimmediately thought of, like,
the different formats of cavalryof old. Like, you know, you have
horse archers, which are fast,maneuverable, have good range of
fire. You have, like, heavilyarmoured cavalry, you know,
mounted knights that arecharging down, and you have all
of these formats. How does thatexist in the modern battle
(03:58):
space?
Col Auld (03:58):
Yeah. And so what you ended up with at at the core of
all those different forms ofcavalry that you mentioned, at
the core is still this idea ofmoving rapidly, like, regardless
of whether you're an archer onhorseback, you were heavily
armoured or lightly armoured onhorseback. Still at the core was
this idea of mobility, rapidmobility. And so today, we still
maintain that. You know, if youlook across the armoured forces
(04:19):
of the world, many forcesorganize themselves along kind
of light armoured cavalry lines,medium armoured cavalry lines,
and heavy armoured cavalrylines.
And within the Royal CanadianArmoured Corps, we are putting
kind of the finishing stages onnew doctrine that also begins to
see us categorize our armouredforces into these light armoured
(04:41):
cavalry, medium armouredcavalry, and heavy armoured
cavalry categories. And each ofthose forces, they bring
different things to thebattlefield. They're optimized
in different ways and optimizedfor different roles on the
battlefield. But withoutquestion, they all have a
utility on the battlefield.
Capt Orton (05:00):
Would you often see the heavy, medium, and light
platforms deployed at the sametime in terms of battlefield
geometry doing the thingtogether, or how do they work
together, if at all?
Col Auld (05:11):
Yeah. So the Army in the field, whether it's a
division, choose the formationsize you'd like, whether it's a
corps, division, brigade. Thatformation is essentially an
organism that has to be able tosurvive, fight, live on the
battlefield, and it comprises ofdifferent pieces. And it needs
all those pieces in order tokinda survive and fight. And the
(05:34):
Armoured Corps actually providesa couple of of those pieces.
So if we took a look at abrigade, a brigade is roughly
we'll call it 5000, 6000, justto put a number on it, comprises
largely of there will beinfantry, there will be
artillery. And the infantryreally focus on the close fight.
Supporting the infantry is heavyarmour cavalry, which are
(05:58):
optimized for that close fight.But on the outskirts of the
brigade, further out front,further on the flanks, there's
the medium and lighter armouredcavalry, which have more
mobility, and their job reallyis to find the enemy and shape
the enemy for the main body ofthe brigade. So within the
(06:19):
brigade, when its job is toclose with and destroy
something, it will use itsarmour battle group.
It will use its infantry battlegroups to do that. But before it
can do that, it needs somethingout there finding the enemy. And
that's another thing that theArmoured Corps brings to the
army is we're the ones from aground perspective, a ground
force perspective. We are theones that are out front of the
(06:40):
brigades and divisions findingthe enemy, shaping the enemy,
and setting the conditions suchthat the main body of the
brigadier division can actuallyclose in and conduct their
assaults on those enemypositions and achieve the
objectives or the missions thatthey've been assigned. So we
don't just have a singular role.
We have multiple roles within aformation. So to your question,
(07:01):
to circle back to that, on thebattlefield, you'd actually see
multiple types of armouredcavalry at the same time, but
fulfilling different functionsin different roles and in
different spaces on the on thebattlefield. Heavy armoured
cavalry, which would beoptimized for the close fight.
And then on the outskirts,leading out front, you'd see the
medium and lighter armouredcavalry, which is out there
(07:23):
trying to find the enemy, shapethe enemy, find routes, find
bridges, find things that thatmain body of the division of the
brigade needs to keep moving. Sothe Armoured Corps provides that
as well.
Forces out front as well asforces within the main body that
are optimized for closefighting.
Capt Orton (07:41):
You know, in my mind, when I think about shaping
the enemy, it's really thebattlefield is a fog of war. You
don't know what's in there. Youdon't know what's happening. And
so when you talk about shapingthe enemy, to me, what that
means is having pieces out therethat are detecting that and
trying to figure out what'shappening so that you have a
general idea of what's happeningthere. Does that sound right?
Col Auld (08:02):
So what I would say is that fits more into finding. So
we have several key functionsthat have to happen on the
battlefield. One of them isfinding. We definitely have to
find where the enemy is, and sowe need a force that does that.
And most armies, ours included,the way the doctrine works is
the Armoured Corps provides theforce forward that is actually
(08:24):
finding the enemy, so that's arole.
But once you've found the enemy,what you need to be able to do
is fix them and hold them inplace so that the main body can
then close in with them. But,additionally, you're not just
trying to hold them in place.You're trying to shape them or
set conditions, attrit them,cause them to move in a way you
need to so that you can have anadvantage as the main body
(08:48):
closes in to conduct the assaultor go around them or whatever
your your mission is. You needto shape that enemy that you
found such that you can actuallyachieve your mission or win. And
so sometimes, simply smashinginto them is not good enough.
You may need to cut down theratio of their forces. You may
need to force them to move.That's how you may need to shape
(09:10):
them, get them to move somewheresuch that you have an advantage
to close in and destroy them.And so shaping, you know, it's a
term we throw around a lot. Itreally just means setting the
right conditions so that you canwin.
And most of the time, the enemyis not gonna cooperate with you.
The enemy has a vote, and sofinding them is hard and then
shaping them so that you canbeat them. That is also hard.
(09:33):
That is a deliberate action toshape them. And then actually
getting into them and defeatingthem, that is also hard.
You know, everything on thebattlefield looks simple, but
it's all hard, and that includesfinding, fixing, and shaping,
and then ultimately closing withand destroying. All of those
stages have to happen. They allneed a force that does that, and
they're all difficult becausethe enemy gets a vote.
Capt Orton (09:55):
One of the many things I've learned about being
in the military is you noticethat different countries do
things ever so slightlydifferently or in some cases, a
lot differently. How is theArmoured Corps organized in
Canada?
Col Auld (10:07):
So one of the biggest kind of I'll call it, an
evolution within the ArmouredCorps that we have ongoing right
now is we're moving from whatused to be a symmetric corps. So
we have 3 regular forceregiments, and we have 18
reserve regiments within theArmoured Corps. In total, just a
little bit more than 5,000positions, all of which are not
(10:28):
filled. And our regular forceregiments, at least for most of
my history in the army, havebeen very symmetric. They all
looked the same.
But currently, we're working tocentralize all our heavy armour
under one single regiment, andour other 2 regular force
regiments are beginning tooptimize more in the medium
(10:49):
armoured cavalry and lightarmoured cavalry spaces. So that
is one thing that we arebeginning to do, move to a non
symmetric core that other allieshave also done. Their armoured
core or their armoured branch,if you look across it, is not
identical. The components oftheir armoured branch are
optimized to fulfill specificroles on the battlefield. So we
(11:12):
are kind of moving now in thatdirection, which is the right
thing for us to do, and it alsohappens to be the thing that,
kind of our key allies andpartners have already done,
actually.
Capt Orton (11:21):
I would say that mirrors to an extent for those
that are familiar with theinfantry structure is at the
brigade level, like, let's say,1, 2, 3 PPCLI, while 3 is more
of jump capability, and then 2has different roles, and
sometimes 1 has different rolesdepending on how that's
coordinated. So now we're justdoing that within a Corps level
reorganization.
Col Auld (11:42):
Essentially, that's right. And there's many benefits
to it. First of all, putting allthe the heavy platforms so the
heavy armoured cavalry in Canadais centered on the Leopard 2
family of vehicles, the Leopard2 tank. The Leopard 2 is
maintaining them, making surethat they're in running order,
they're ready for training,they're ready for deployment. It
is a major effort to keep thoseplatforms ready to go.
(12:06):
By centralizing them all, andthey're being centralized in the
West under the Lord Strathcona'sHorse Royal Canadians, a
regiment, in Edmonton. Bycentralizing the Leopards within
that regiment, it allows us alsoto kind of pool and focus
maintenance support, all thesustainment that's required to
keep those vehicles running. Italso allows us to focus if we
(12:28):
needed contracted support orsupport from manufacturers. It
gives a real focus to that tomake sure that we can have the
best fleet of functioning tanksas possible. And that that is
underway now, and it will takeus a couple of years to
accomplish that.
But, ultimately, the army madethe decision last year that
those tanks would becentralized. And over time, we
have to adjust the organizationand structure of the
(12:50):
Strathcona's a little bitbecause a a regiment that is
fully based on tank needs aspecific kind of maintenance
footprint, a specificsustainment footprint, which is
a little bit different than theother 2 regular force regiments
that are kind of on medium orlighter vehicles, And so that
work is ongoing right now tomake sure that the Strethconas
are set up with all the heavyplatforms that we have. And, as
(13:13):
well, we're working to make surethat the Royal Canadian Dragoons
in Petawawa and, the Dusiem inBelcartier, the 2 regular force
regiments that are more mediumand light, to make sure that
their structures are looked atand their equipment is looked at
so that they are best suited toperform kind of a medium
armoured cavalry or lightarmoured cavalry role on the
battlefield. So the armour coreis gonna be not symmetric, but
(13:35):
that is purposeful, and I thinkit will suit the army well.
Capt Orton (13:39):
And when we discussed that the heavy
platforms is tanks, obviously.For us, what are the medium and
light platforms?
Col Auld (13:48):
So for us right now, the primary medium slash light
platforms and, you know, there'sa debate around this, but we
have LAV 6, which is also, youknow, very heavily resonant
across the army and the infantrybattalions and other units. But
we have a combination of LAV 6,TAP v, which is the tactical,
armour patrol vehicle. We stillhave some Coyote that are out
(14:09):
there, which is a, LAV 2, 8 by 8platform. They're at the end of
their life, and they're slowlybeing kind of divested over
time. Mhmm.
But those are the 2 mainplatforms, kind of LAV 6, TapV.
There's a number of supportvehicles as well, obviously.
Yeah. Of course. We have, gwagons and a variety of trucks
and kitchens and things likethis, fuel trucks.
And, you know, the ArmouredCorps is a very platform focused
(14:32):
corps. We work to fight mounted.That's what we bring to the
army, you know, the ability tomove rapidly. Agile, we fight
mounted, And so we needplatforms, and there are always
platform challenges. But I thinkthat there are some moves
underway between centralizingthe Leopards with the
Strathconas along with somepossible future initiatives that
(14:55):
will see the Armoured Corps, ourplatform fleet kind of getting
healthier and healthier as we goforward, which is something we
need in the Armoured Corps againas a very platform based core
for the army.
Capt Orton (15:05):
You know, you're talking about the kind of
platform based approach in thelabs in particular, like, I had
a chance to spend a lot of timein the lab. I got to drive a lab
and recognized infantryoperations is a unique
experience that make yousometimes feel like basically
Armoured right? If the ArmouredCorps is operating in LAVs and
the infantry is operating inLAVs, what's the difference
(15:27):
between those two things?
Col Auld (15:30):
Yeah. So the platform does not define the battlefield
function, you know? And thereality is is that the
infantry's core job is to fightdismounted. Some armies out
there have armoured infantry.
Capt Orton (15:41):
Mhmm.
Col Auld (15:42):
Some forces out there just call them mechanized
infantry. The reality is at thecore of the infantry's function,
it is to fight dismounted, closewith and destroy, dismounted.
The infantry is the only forcethat is optimized to do that.
Armour, we fight mounted. Wehave to shape the environment,
set the conditions so that theinfantry can actually make it to
(16:04):
the objective, dismount, and dowhat they're supposed to do,
which is fight dismounted.
And most of the evidence outthere shows kind of infantry
alone can't fire their way ontoan objective. It's all about the
combined arms team. But I dofind that some people get
distracted by the fact that,well, we have the same platform
as you. Yes. But you focus ondifferent roles on the
(16:25):
battlefield.
And it's the role and functionon the battlefield that matters,
not the platform. You need aplatform for the infantry. The
Armour Corps needs a platform.The artillery need platforms.
This is the way it works, but weall fulfill mutually supporting
roles.
And in fact, some of the images,some of the lessons,
observations from what we see inRussia's war against Ukraine. If
(16:48):
any side is unable to conductcombined arms properly, whatever
arm that is just hanging outthere by itself is highly
vulnerable. Tanks attacking bythemselves, highly vulnerable.
Infantry attacking bythemselves, highly vulnerable.
Artillery just rolling aroundwithout any other support,
highly vulnerable.
It's all about the combined armsteam. If we don't build that
(17:11):
thing correctly, whatever arm isleft is, frankly, it's gonna
die. And so the modernbattlefield is way too lethal.
Weapons are way too precise. Thecombined arms team is the
answer, and so we have to focuson and, of course, these are my
opinions.
We have to build the army to bebalanced so that we have a
lethal combined arms team.That's the goal. That's the key
(17:32):
in my opinion.
Capt Orton (17:34):
You know, maintenance on armoured vehicles
is intensive. It takes a lot oftime, takes a lot of effort, and
a lot of resources. What doesthe Armoured Corps look like for
a reservist, generally speaking?
Col Auld (17:45):
Yeah. And that's really a great question. So
within the army, of course,there's a one army approach. You
know, the intent is a veryintegrated force between the
regular force and the reserveforce. That is mirrored within
the armour corps.
We have a one corps approach,and the way that we think about
this kind of conceptually isthat the regular components of
the Armour Corps or the reservecomponents of the Armoured
(18:08):
Corps, we should be able to worktogether. So we could see
regular folks moving to supportreserve. We could see reserve
folks moving to support regular,regiments. And so the idea is is
to have this very integratedcore. The challenge becomes, as
you brought up, within thevehicle space.
You know? So when we starttalking about vehicles for the
(18:30):
reserves, a lot of our platformsin the Armoured Corps are
maintenance intensive. Some ofthem require special tools,
require special facilities tomaintain, which frankly are just
not available at all locationsacross Canada. So could we have
Leopard 2 reserve regiments? Itwould be difficult because of
(18:51):
the weight of the platforms, therequirements for maintenance and
special tooling, etcetera.
However, with that said, theidea within the Armoured Corps
is to ensure that the reserveforce, they have access to
platforms that are more easilymaintainable for them and are
more easy to train with giventhe realities of kind of reserve
(19:12):
life, reserve access to trainingareas, reserve access to
maintenance. I don't think it'ssomething that we've completely
cracked yet, and it's somethingthat we continue to work on,
frankly, is finding a goodsolution for armoured reserve
regiments. The reserve regimentsare very energized in this.
They're doing great work tofigure out how do they best
partner with local regular forceregiments. As an example, some
(19:34):
of the Toronto area units havegreat relationships with the
Dragoons up in Petawawa.
Or, some of the western reserveregiments have great,
relationships with theStrathconas at Edmonton,
etcetera. Right. And so byestablishing these relationships
as well between reserveregiments and regular force
regiments, They're able topiggyback on each other's
training opportunities. So youdo see reserve units providing
(19:59):
crews, providing possiblytroops, etcetera, into regular
force regiment exercises. Yousee regular force, folks
supporting reserve regimenexercises.
And so life as a reservistwithin the Armoured Corps, it
can be challenging to get accessto the the platforms that you
would like to have access to,but there's definitely work
(20:19):
afoot to make that moreavailable, make sure that the
training that can happen ishappening. But I don't think we
fully cracked that yet. It'ssomething that we have more work
to do, not just us, but withinthe army, we have to do more
work on that.
Capt Orton (20:31):
And I would guess also when you're building core
skills, those core skills aretransferable to a certain extent
across multiple platforms. Andthey're just like, let's say,
weapon systems in the infantryor whatever is. You may not know
everything about another weaponsystem, but if you have the
basic functions of how to load,unload a weapon, make it safe,
understand that those are thesteps that you have to do with
(20:53):
any weapon system, I'd imaginethat transfers very well in the
armoured department in terms ofeven things so much as tactics
and things like that.
Col Auld (21:01):
Yeah. And so that's what the reserves focus on
really is. There are not justbasic army skills, but basic
Armoured Corps skills, livingand fighting as a crew, map and
compass skills, controllingfires. There are many basic
skills that reserve regimentscontinue to focus on, such that
(21:21):
when they go off to train,either their own training or
they integrate with regularforce training, Like you said,
those core skills are completelytransferable. And to be honest,
the army is pivoting towardsLatvia heavily, and the reserves
are gonna be a a criticalcomponent, not just for the
army, but within the armor corpsto make sure that the army can
(21:42):
deliver on the requirements forLatvia.
And so these core skills thatthe reserve regiments focus on
make them easily integratedwithin these rotations. So our
reserves, their trainingprogram, their qualifications,
all of those pathways are thesame as the regular force for
us. Mhmm. The tactics thereserves use are the same
tactics the regular forces use.And so by by having this kind of
(22:06):
one core approach throughtraining, through core skills,
battle test standards, It makesus very integrated, regular to
reserve, reserve to regular.
It really does help us with theone core approach.
Capt Orton (22:18):
And what are the expectations for that upcoming
deployment? Like, what is thearmored corps gonna be providing
to the team in Latvia?
Col Auld (22:26):
So the Armoured Corps actually has to force generate
for every rotation going toLatvia. So every single
rotation, the Strathconas willhave to generate half a squadron
for the heavy armor cavalrysquadron that is in Latvia. And
the way it actually is workingnow is every rotation that will
go out the door for the firstfew rotations will be
(22:48):
essentially a half squadronsize. And so that's roughly
we'll call it 60 soldiers, 65soldiers from the Strathconas.
Every single rotation will haveto rotate into Latvia because
there are Leopard twos inLatvia, and so every rotation
needs a fresh wave of leopard 2qualified members of the the
armor corps.
(23:09):
Additionally, there's also acavalry squadron in Latvia as
part of the commitment, and thisis more in the medium light
role. So what that means isevery rotation, either the
dragoons in Petawawa or theDusium in Feklharcier, they will
also have to generate around 60,65 folks to head over to Latvia.
And so every single rotation toLatvia, the armor corps will be
generating forces to land in 2spots in Latvia, either heavy
(23:36):
armor cavalry or the mediumslash light role. And so it will
be demanding. We will be drawingheavily on our armor reserve
units to support this becausethis commitment is expected
obviously to last for manyyears.
Yeah. And so every rotation, theArmoured Corps is implicated in
Latvia. We have people in thearmy who wanna operate. We don't
wanna just be sitting inGarrison. We wanna be in the
(23:58):
field soldiering.
Soldiering's hard business. Weneed people ready to operate
because the army is about to gointo a period of high tempo and
constant operations, and we'regonna feel that within the
Armoured Corps. Check your kit.
Capt Orton (24:13):
You know, to the untrained eye, I think a lot of
people may not notice thatthere's been some evolution in,
let's say, armored vehicles,even the difference between,
let's say, a a LAV 2.5 Coyoteand the LAV 6 platform. You
know, from an outsider lookingin perspective, you might just
be like, yeah, big wheels, biggun. What has evolved in terms
(24:34):
of these platforms over the pastcouple of decades?
Col Auld (24:37):
First of all, I'll say, you know, I've made
reference to heavy armouredcavalry, medium armoured
cavalry, light armoured cavalry.The one thing I would throw out
there is the word heavy, medium,and light, that is not
specifically about physicalweight. Okay? That refers to the
role that that particular forceis optimized for. And within
(24:57):
history, within our world,there's an accepted idea of this
thing called the iron triangle.
You end up when you're designingforces or you're buying
platforms, you're trying tobalance mobility, firepower, and
protection because whenever youkind of overweight one of those,
you usually have to give up onone or the other, and so it's a
constant battle to weight thoseand balance those. And so if you
(25:20):
were to look at heavy armouredcavalry, this is kind of a force
that is optimized more for closecombat. The close fight, hence,
it would have a heavierweighting more on firepower and
protection, and so you'd have togive up a little bit on the
mobility side.
Capt Orton (25:32):
Right.
Col Auld (25:33):
Whereas if you look on the other end of the kind of
armoured cavalry spectrum and goto a light armoured cavalry
force, this is a force thatwould be optimized more for wide
ranging movements and maneuver,maybe on a flank, operations on
a flank or rear area. So you'reable to reduce the amount of
firepower, reduce theprotection, but enhance the
(25:54):
mobility piece. And so, youknow, you you look to optimize
your forces based on the rolethat you see them playing on the
battlefield. The reason I throwall that out there is what we're
seeing in terms of the evolutionof armoured vehicles is this
idea of trying to manage theiron triangle to make vehicles,
(26:15):
as an example, more lethal. Sogreater firepower, greater
protection, greater mobility,but lighter physical weight.
Mhmm. So you would end up with avehicle that would still be
optimized for close combat. Soit would still be a heavy
armoured cavalry vehicle, butthe physical weight of it might
be half the weight of today'svehicles. And so there's armies
(26:37):
out there and there'smanufacturers out there that
that is their design challenge.Like, I want a vehicle that is
better protected, morefirepower, and can move better
than today's tanks, but I wantit to weigh less than 50 tonnes.
And so people are going afterthat with new armor
technologies, different gunsystems and ammunition systems,
better engine technologies,including active protection
(27:01):
systems. Instead of justtypically armor is thought of,
well, I need more protection.Let's just make the armour
thicker, which then just makesthe vehicle physically heavier.
Capt Orton (27:09):
Yeah. Thick metal.
Col Auld (27:11):
And then it ends up you know, you can't fly it
anywhere. It can only go on aship. It takes forever to get
anywhere. You can't maintain it.We're gonna see what is
considered a heavy vehicleoptimized for close combat.
The physical weight's comingdown, And you're gonna see what
is considered a light vehicle,still light, but you'll see
their firepower is kinda comingup. And so my point with all
this is this is where the futureof armored vehicles are. The
(27:34):
future of armored vehicles isalso in optional crewing. So a
lot of the armoured vehicledevelopments that we're seeing,
it is a vehicle that perhaps hasa two person crew, or you don't
have to have a crew and it canbe remotely controlled or it can
be automated. So we're beginningto see this kind of
collaborative combat approachwhere you have uncrewed
(27:57):
vehicles, whether they're in theair or on the ground.
You have uncrewed vehicles,several of them that are
controlled by a crude vehicle,and this little grouping forms a
little combat grouping on theground. And sometimes you can
also have that crude vehicle notbeing crude, something further
back controlling it. So there'sa lot of movement towards not
(28:17):
just uncrewed and automatedplatforms, both in the air and
on the ground, but alsooptionally crude platforms. So
the idea of kind of remotecontrol, hover tanks, or
something like this, you know,it used to be really science
fiction. There are companies outthere.
There are prototypes out thereof uncrewed, remotely
controlled, automated systemsthat can fight on the ground.
(28:41):
Are they perfect? Not yet, butthey're in development. They're
working towards them. You canfind them open source on the
Internet.
There's a lot of very incrediblekind of developments in the
armor vehicle space, not justfor the armor core, but for the
infantry. Infantry fightingvehicles are undergoing an
evolution. Artillery platformsare undergoing an evolution. But
ultimately, there's a lot ofexciting development in that
(29:03):
space, and and, we wanna be partof it.
Capt Orton (29:06):
As you're describing kind of that development and the
iron triangle aspect, a lot ofmilitary members, I would say,
are familiar with the scene inthe movie Pentagon Wars where
we're talking about thedevelopment of the Bradley
infantry fighting vehicle. And,the iterative design process of
adding features and in a reallychallenging way, let's say. If
(29:27):
you haven't seen it, you gottalook up the clip. It's pretty
entertaining. And I know we'vecome a long way in facing those
problems sometimes, but othertimes, not so much.
Col Auld (29:35):
Yeah. I know. And and so, you know, when the US was
developing the big five in thein the eighties or finalizing
the big five, the Bradley is wasone of them. Some of those
lessons are being used toimprove the way things are
evolving today. So one of thebig terms is this idea of new
platforms have to be futureproofed.
Yeah. They can't be expected tobe perfect platforms right off
(29:58):
the line. They have to be builtin a way that as we learn or as
some new technology, you canrapidly just upgrade the
platform without requiring acomplete redesign. So even the
way these vehicles, these futureplatforms are being created,
it's being done to make themmore adaptable. As we learn and
new things are discovered, youcan rapidly upgrade your
platforms.
Capt Orton (30:18):
We've seen that with the LAV 3, actually. Even while
I was in theater, variants werecoming in that were heavily
upgraded from the way they werepreviously.
Col Auld (30:27):
Yeah. And that's the way that we'll go. And for
whatever it's worth on my side,what I try to influence is, you
know, we don't need the perfectsolutions. What we need to do is
get to good enough, snap thechalk line, get it moving
forward, and then we can improvethese things over time by
upgrading modules, changing outthis, changing out that, making
it better as we learn. But if wejust keep waiting to design a
(30:50):
perfect solution, you'll neverend.
Yeah. You know, technology isjust changing way too quickly.
We need to move forward withsomething.
Capt Orton (30:57):
Perhaps to wrap things up, what is one of those
things for the Armoured Corpsthat your average person outside
would not know what that thingis or, you know, that secret,
let's call it?
Col Auld (31:07):
That's a good question. And there'll probably
be people that wanna debate withme about this, but, Always. So,
you know, the reality is iswithin the Armoured Corps, not
everybody can do it. When you'retrying to crew command a vehicle
or you're part of that vehiclecrew, there's a lot of inputs.
You know, you're trying to watchwhere is the enemy, where are
(31:29):
there just physical dangers,cliffs and potholes and and
swamps, what is my crew doing,where are my fire team partners,
Where's the combat team?
Where where is the battle group?You're trying to do all of that
while also navigating off a map,screaming fire orders at your
crew or giving direction to thedriver. All of that is happening
simultaneously. There's a lotthat you have to do all at the
(31:50):
same time. So for folks in theArmoured Corps, a real strength
is the ability to multitask anddo these things quickly because
you're moving across the groundvery quickly.
The situation in front of you ischanging very quickly. They have
to think fast, multitaskquickly, understand what the
heck's going on really quickly,and our people do that very
(32:11):
well. And so, you know, theArmoured Corps, it has its
challenges right now. We'reworking through some of them
with respect to platformavailability and other things
like this. This is no surpriseto anybody.
We do have a way to move thisforward, and we're getting after
it. But, the Armoured Corps isdefinitely a great place to be.
It plays an important role onthe battlefield. And without
(32:32):
question, we need good peoplecoming into the Corps ready to
work, ready to operate, andready to help us through the
demands of the next decade. Aswe service every single rotation
to Latvia, we need people withtheir bags packed and ready to
go.
Capt Orton (32:45):
Well, I guess if there's any takeaway, that's it.
Is if you want some action inthe Armoured Corps, it's
happening.
Col Auld (32:51):
I'm ready to go. Like, I've got my bags packed just
just in case I get called. Let'sgo.
Capt Orton (32:56):
Nice. I love it. Well, thanks so much for coming
on the Podcast! I reallyappreciate it.
Col Auld (32:59):
Yeah. Thanks for having me. I enjoyed it.
Capt Orton (33:02):
That was Colonel Frasier Auld, director of the
Royal Canadian Armoured Corps.And I am Captain Adam Orton for
the Canadian Army Podcast. Ortonout.
Tanks attacking by themselves, highly vulnerable.
Infantry attacking bythemselves, highly vulnerable.
Artillery just rolling aroundwithout any other support,
highly vulnerable. It's allabout the combined arms team. If
we don't build that thingcorrectly, whatever arm is left,
frankly, it's gonna die.
Capt Orton (00:23):
Hi. I'm Captain Adam Orton with the Canadian Army
Podcast. Wherever the infantryis, there's almost always their
fire team partner, the ArmouredCorps. They bring a variety of
weapons and protection, usuallyin the form of vehicles. And
while tanks are great, there's alot more to the Armoured Corps.
Here with me today is ColonelFraser Auld, who is the director
of the Royal Canadian ArmouredCorps and he's gonna lay it all
(00:44):
down for us. Welcome to thePodcast, sir.
Col Auld (00:46):
Thanks very much. Greatly appreciate the
opportunity.
Capt Orton (00:50):
So we've already talked about tanks a fair amount
on the podcast, but modernarmour is more than just tanks.
What does the Armoured Corps ingeneral bring to the table in
the battlefield?
Col Auld (01:04):
So I think if you look back in history, and I'll and
I'll start in the past and bringus forward to the the present.
Yeah. There's always been arequirement, and military
commanders have always realizedthat they need a force that is
able to move rapidly across theground. So, of course, if you
look back several 1000 years,this was generally folks who are
(01:25):
on horses. This is typicallywhat you would call cavalry.
And so cavalry forces have beenaround for a long time, and
their their key attribute thatthey bring to battle is the
ability to move quickly acrossground. And so if you fast
forward that to kind of the 20thcentury, due to some of the
industrialization, issues,increasing weapon lethality, the
(01:46):
introduction of the machine gun,rapid firing artillery, you end
up in this space where you stillneed to be able to move rapidly
across the ground, except theseforces are now much more
vulnerable to some of these newweapon systems. And so, of
course, there's an operationalproblem that presents itself in
World War 1, which is how do webreak the stalemate? How do we
(02:06):
move over machine gun sweptterrain in a way where you're
protected? And horse mountedcavalry of old, it just doesn't
fit the bill anymore.
We still want to move quickly,but we need to do it in a
protected fashion. And so, ofcourse, you begin to see all
armies beginning to experimentwith novel ways of combining,
(02:28):
newly introduced engines, withthis idea of armoured plating.
Capt Orton (02:32):
Right.
Col Auld (02:33):
And you begin seeing the kind of introduction of some
of these tanks, which was just acode word to kind of cover up
the production of thesevehicles. But you get this idea
of protected mobility, somethingthat can move, not rapidly at
that time, but move across theterrain in a protected fashion.
And so you bring that rightforward to today where, you
know, we have much better enginetechnology. We have much better
(02:55):
designs, we have armoured forcesthat can move very quickly
across very lethal terrain underprotection, and that's really
what armoured forces bring, theability to move quickly in a
protected fashion.
And because of the platforms,you can also put a lot of
firepower onto that platform. Soyou end up with a force that
(03:15):
combines mobility withfirepower, with protection. And
a force like this that can movequickly across terrain, exploit
openings when they happen, putpressure where we need it,
that's something that armourbrings to the battlefield.
Regardless of platform, that'sreally the core function is the
ability to be agile, moverapidly, and take advantage of,
(03:36):
opportunity.
Capt Orton (03:38):
It's interesting when you're talking about the
cavalry. In my mind, Iimmediately thought of, like,
the different formats of cavalryof old. Like, you know, you have
horse archers, which are fast,maneuverable, have good range of
fire. You have, like, heavilyarmoured cavalry, you know,
mounted knights that arecharging down, and you have all
of these formats. How does thatexist in the modern battle
(03:58):
space?
Col Auld (03:58):
Yeah. And so what you ended up with at at the core of
all those different forms ofcavalry that you mentioned, at
the core is still this idea ofmoving rapidly, like, regardless
of whether you're an archer onhorseback, you were heavily
armoured or lightly armoured onhorseback. Still at the core was
this idea of mobility, rapidmobility. And so today, we still
maintain that. You know, if youlook across the armoured forces
(04:19):
of the world, many forcesorganize themselves along kind
of light armoured cavalry lines,medium armoured cavalry lines,
and heavy armoured cavalrylines.
And within the Royal CanadianArmoured Corps, we are putting
kind of the finishing stages onnew doctrine that also begins to
see us categorize our armouredforces into these light armoured
(04:41):
cavalry, medium armouredcavalry, and heavy armoured
cavalry categories. And each ofthose forces, they bring
different things to thebattlefield. They're optimized
in different ways and optimizedfor different roles on the
battlefield. But withoutquestion, they all have a
utility on the battlefield.
Capt Orton (05:00):
Would you often see the heavy, medium, and light
platforms deployed at the sametime in terms of battlefield
geometry doing the thingtogether, or how do they work
together, if at all?
Col Auld (05:11):
Yeah. So the Army in the field, whether it's a
division, choose the formationsize you'd like, whether it's a
corps, division, brigade. Thatformation is essentially an
organism that has to be able tosurvive, fight, live on the
battlefield, and it comprises ofdifferent pieces. And it needs
all those pieces in order tokinda survive and fight. And the
(05:34):
Armoured Corps actually providesa couple of of those pieces.
So if we took a look at abrigade, a brigade is roughly
we'll call it 5000, 6000, justto put a number on it, comprises
largely of there will beinfantry, there will be
artillery. And the infantryreally focus on the close fight.
Supporting the infantry is heavyarmour cavalry, which are
(05:58):
optimized for that close fight.But on the outskirts of the
brigade, further out front,further on the flanks, there's
the medium and lighter armouredcavalry, which have more
mobility, and their job reallyis to find the enemy and shape
the enemy for the main body ofthe brigade. So within the
(06:19):
brigade, when its job is toclose with and destroy
something, it will use itsarmour battle group.
It will use its infantry battlegroups to do that. But before it
can do that, it needs somethingout there finding the enemy. And
that's another thing that theArmoured Corps brings to the
army is we're the ones from aground perspective, a ground
force perspective. We are theones that are out front of the
(06:40):
brigades and divisions findingthe enemy, shaping the enemy,
and setting the conditions suchthat the main body of the
brigadier division can actuallyclose in and conduct their
assaults on those enemypositions and achieve the
objectives or the missions thatthey've been assigned. So we
don't just have a singular role.
We have multiple roles within aformation. So to your question,
(07:01):
to circle back to that, on thebattlefield, you'd actually see
multiple types of armouredcavalry at the same time, but
fulfilling different functionsin different roles and in
different spaces on the on thebattlefield. Heavy armoured
cavalry, which would beoptimized for the close fight.
And then on the outskirts,leading out front, you'd see the
medium and lighter armouredcavalry, which is out there
(07:23):
trying to find the enemy, shapethe enemy, find routes, find
bridges, find things that thatmain body of the division of the
brigade needs to keep moving. Sothe Armoured Corps provides that
as well.
Forces out front as well asforces within the main body that
are optimized for closefighting.
Capt Orton (07:41):
You know, in my mind, when I think about shaping
the enemy, it's really thebattlefield is a fog of war. You
don't know what's in there. Youdon't know what's happening. And
so when you talk about shapingthe enemy, to me, what that
means is having pieces out therethat are detecting that and
trying to figure out what'shappening so that you have a
general idea of what's happeningthere. Does that sound right?
Col Auld (08:02):
So what I would say is that fits more into finding. So
we have several key functionsthat have to happen on the
battlefield. One of them isfinding. We definitely have to
find where the enemy is, and sowe need a force that does that.
And most armies, ours included,the way the doctrine works is
the Armoured Corps provides theforce forward that is actually
(08:24):
finding the enemy, so that's arole.
But once you've found the enemy,what you need to be able to do
is fix them and hold them inplace so that the main body can
then close in with them. But,additionally, you're not just
trying to hold them in place.You're trying to shape them or
set conditions, attrit them,cause them to move in a way you
need to so that you can have anadvantage as the main body
(08:48):
closes in to conduct the assaultor go around them or whatever
your your mission is. You needto shape that enemy that you
found such that you can actuallyachieve your mission or win. And
so sometimes, simply smashinginto them is not good enough.
You may need to cut down theratio of their forces. You may
need to force them to move.That's how you may need to shape
(09:10):
them, get them to move somewheresuch that you have an advantage
to close in and destroy them.And so shaping, you know, it's a
term we throw around a lot. Itreally just means setting the
right conditions so that you canwin.
And most of the time, the enemyis not gonna cooperate with you.
The enemy has a vote, and sofinding them is hard and then
shaping them so that you canbeat them. That is also hard.
(09:33):
That is a deliberate action toshape them. And then actually
getting into them and defeatingthem, that is also hard.
You know, everything on thebattlefield looks simple, but
it's all hard, and that includesfinding, fixing, and shaping,
and then ultimately closing withand destroying. All of those
stages have to happen. They allneed a force that does that, and
they're all difficult becausethe enemy gets a vote.
Capt Orton (09:55):
One of the many things I've learned about being
in the military is you noticethat different countries do
things ever so slightlydifferently or in some cases, a
lot differently. How is theArmoured Corps organized in
Canada?
Col Auld (10:07):
So one of the biggest kind of I'll call it, an
evolution within the ArmouredCorps that we have ongoing right
now is we're moving from whatused to be a symmetric corps. So
we have 3 regular forceregiments, and we have 18
reserve regiments within theArmoured Corps. In total, just a
little bit more than 5,000positions, all of which are not
(10:28):
filled. And our regular forceregiments, at least for most of
my history in the army, havebeen very symmetric. They all
looked the same.
But currently, we're working tocentralize all our heavy armour
under one single regiment, andour other 2 regular force
regiments are beginning tooptimize more in the medium
(10:49):
armoured cavalry and lightarmoured cavalry spaces. So that
is one thing that we arebeginning to do, move to a non
symmetric core that other allieshave also done. Their armoured
core or their armoured branch,if you look across it, is not
identical. The components oftheir armoured branch are
optimized to fulfill specificroles on the battlefield. So we
(11:12):
are kind of moving now in thatdirection, which is the right
thing for us to do, and it alsohappens to be the thing that,
kind of our key allies andpartners have already done,
actually.
Capt Orton (11:21):
I would say that mirrors to an extent for those
that are familiar with theinfantry structure is at the
brigade level, like, let's say,1, 2, 3 PPCLI, while 3 is more
of jump capability, and then 2has different roles, and
sometimes 1 has different rolesdepending on how that's
coordinated. So now we're justdoing that within a Corps level
reorganization.
Col Auld (11:42):
Essentially, that's right. And there's many benefits
to it. First of all, putting allthe the heavy platforms so the
heavy armoured cavalry in Canadais centered on the Leopard 2
family of vehicles, the Leopard2 tank. The Leopard 2 is
maintaining them, making surethat they're in running order,
they're ready for training,they're ready for deployment. It
is a major effort to keep thoseplatforms ready to go.
(12:06):
By centralizing them all, andthey're being centralized in the
West under the Lord Strathcona'sHorse Royal Canadians, a
regiment, in Edmonton. Bycentralizing the Leopards within
that regiment, it allows us alsoto kind of pool and focus
maintenance support, all thesustainment that's required to
keep those vehicles running. Italso allows us to focus if we
(12:28):
needed contracted support orsupport from manufacturers. It
gives a real focus to that tomake sure that we can have the
best fleet of functioning tanksas possible. And that that is
underway now, and it will takeus a couple of years to
accomplish that.
But, ultimately, the army madethe decision last year that
those tanks would becentralized. And over time, we
have to adjust the organizationand structure of the
(12:50):
Strathcona's a little bitbecause a a regiment that is
fully based on tank needs aspecific kind of maintenance
footprint, a specificsustainment footprint, which is
a little bit different than theother 2 regular force regiments
that are kind of on medium orlighter vehicles, And so that
work is ongoing right now tomake sure that the Strethconas
are set up with all the heavyplatforms that we have. And, as
(13:13):
well, we're working to make surethat the Royal Canadian Dragoons
in Petawawa and, the Dusiem inBelcartier, the 2 regular force
regiments that are more mediumand light, to make sure that
their structures are looked atand their equipment is looked at
so that they are best suited toperform kind of a medium
armoured cavalry or lightarmoured cavalry role on the
battlefield. So the armour coreis gonna be not symmetric, but
(13:35):
that is purposeful, and I thinkit will suit the army well.
Capt Orton (13:39):
And when we discussed that the heavy
platforms is tanks, obviously.For us, what are the medium and
light platforms?
Col Auld (13:48):
So for us right now, the primary medium slash light
platforms and, you know, there'sa debate around this, but we
have LAV 6, which is also, youknow, very heavily resonant
across the army and the infantrybattalions and other units. But
we have a combination of LAV 6,TAP v, which is the tactical,
armour patrol vehicle. We stillhave some Coyote that are out
(14:09):
there, which is a, LAV 2, 8 by 8platform. They're at the end of
their life, and they're slowlybeing kind of divested over
time. Mhmm.
But those are the 2 mainplatforms, kind of LAV 6, TapV.
There's a number of supportvehicles as well, obviously.
Yeah. Of course. We have, gwagons and a variety of trucks
and kitchens and things likethis, fuel trucks.
And, you know, the ArmouredCorps is a very platform focused
(14:32):
corps. We work to fight mounted.That's what we bring to the
army, you know, the ability tomove rapidly. Agile, we fight
mounted, And so we needplatforms, and there are always
platform challenges. But I thinkthat there are some moves
underway between centralizingthe Leopards with the
Strathconas along with somepossible future initiatives that
(14:55):
will see the Armoured Corps, ourplatform fleet kind of getting
healthier and healthier as we goforward, which is something we
need in the Armoured Corps againas a very platform based core
for the army.
Capt Orton (15:05):
You know, you're talking about the kind of
platform based approach in thelabs in particular, like, I had
a chance to spend a lot of timein the lab. I got to drive a lab
and recognized infantryoperations is a unique
experience that make yousometimes feel like basically
Armoured right? If the ArmouredCorps is operating in LAVs and
the infantry is operating inLAVs, what's the difference
(15:27):
between those two things?
Col Auld (15:30):
Yeah. So the platform does not define the battlefield
function, you know? And thereality is is that the
infantry's core job is to fightdismounted. Some armies out
there have armoured infantry.
Capt Orton (15:41):
Mhmm.
Col Auld (15:42):
Some forces out there just call them mechanized
infantry. The reality is at thecore of the infantry's function,
it is to fight dismounted, closewith and destroy, dismounted.
The infantry is the only forcethat is optimized to do that.
Armour, we fight mounted. Wehave to shape the environment,
set the conditions so that theinfantry can actually make it to
(16:04):
the objective, dismount, and dowhat they're supposed to do,
which is fight dismounted.
And most of the evidence outthere shows kind of infantry
alone can't fire their way ontoan objective. It's all about the
combined arms team. But I dofind that some people get
distracted by the fact that,well, we have the same platform
as you. Yes. But you focus ondifferent roles on the
(16:25):
battlefield.
And it's the role and functionon the battlefield that matters,
not the platform. You need aplatform for the infantry. The
Armour Corps needs a platform.The artillery need platforms.
This is the way it works, but weall fulfill mutually supporting
roles.
And in fact, some of the images,some of the lessons,
observations from what we see inRussia's war against Ukraine. If
(16:48):
any side is unable to conductcombined arms properly, whatever
arm that is just hanging outthere by itself is highly
vulnerable. Tanks attacking bythemselves, highly vulnerable.
Infantry attacking bythemselves, highly vulnerable.
Artillery just rolling aroundwithout any other support,
highly vulnerable.
It's all about the combined armsteam. If we don't build that
(17:11):
thing correctly, whatever arm isleft is, frankly, it's gonna
die. And so the modernbattlefield is way too lethal.
Weapons are way too precise. Thecombined arms team is the
answer, and so we have to focuson and, of course, these are my
opinions.
We have to build the army to bebalanced so that we have a
lethal combined arms team.That's the goal. That's the key
(17:32):
in my opinion.
Capt Orton (17:34):
You know, maintenance on armoured vehicles
is intensive. It takes a lot oftime, takes a lot of effort, and
a lot of resources. What doesthe Armoured Corps look like for
a reservist, generally speaking?
Col Auld (17:45):
Yeah. And that's really a great question. So
within the army, of course,there's a one army approach. You
know, the intent is a veryintegrated force between the
regular force and the reserveforce. That is mirrored within
the armour corps.
We have a one corps approach,and the way that we think about
this kind of conceptually isthat the regular components of
the Armour Corps or the reservecomponents of the Armoured
(18:08):
Corps, we should be able to worktogether. So we could see
regular folks moving to supportreserve. We could see reserve
folks moving to support regular,regiments. And so the idea is is
to have this very integratedcore. The challenge becomes, as
you brought up, within thevehicle space.
You know? So when we starttalking about vehicles for the
(18:30):
reserves, a lot of our platformsin the Armoured Corps are
maintenance intensive. Some ofthem require special tools,
require special facilities tomaintain, which frankly are just
not available at all locationsacross Canada. So could we have
Leopard 2 reserve regiments? Itwould be difficult because of
(18:51):
the weight of the platforms, therequirements for maintenance and
special tooling, etcetera.
However, with that said, theidea within the Armoured Corps
is to ensure that the reserveforce, they have access to
platforms that are more easilymaintainable for them and are
more easy to train with giventhe realities of kind of reserve
(19:12):
life, reserve access to trainingareas, reserve access to
maintenance. I don't think it'ssomething that we've completely
cracked yet, and it's somethingthat we continue to work on,
frankly, is finding a goodsolution for armoured reserve
regiments. The reserve regimentsare very energized in this.
They're doing great work tofigure out how do they best
partner with local regular forceregiments. As an example, some
(19:34):
of the Toronto area units havegreat relationships with the
Dragoons up in Petawawa.
Or, some of the western reserveregiments have great,
relationships with theStrathconas at Edmonton,
etcetera. Right. And so byestablishing these relationships
as well between reserveregiments and regular force
regiments, They're able topiggyback on each other's
training opportunities. So youdo see reserve units providing
(19:59):
crews, providing possiblytroops, etcetera, into regular
force regiment exercises. Yousee regular force, folks
supporting reserve regimenexercises.
And so life as a reservistwithin the Armoured Corps, it
can be challenging to get accessto the the platforms that you
would like to have access to,but there's definitely work
(20:19):
afoot to make that moreavailable, make sure that the
training that can happen ishappening. But I don't think we
fully cracked that yet. It'ssomething that we have more work
to do, not just us, but withinthe army, we have to do more
work on that.
Capt Orton (20:31):
And I would guess also when you're building core
skills, those core skills aretransferable to a certain extent
across multiple platforms. Andthey're just like, let's say,
weapon systems in the infantryor whatever is. You may not know
everything about another weaponsystem, but if you have the
basic functions of how to load,unload a weapon, make it safe,
understand that those are thesteps that you have to do with
(20:53):
any weapon system, I'd imaginethat transfers very well in the
armoured department in terms ofeven things so much as tactics
and things like that.
Col Auld (21:01):
Yeah. And so that's what the reserves focus on
really is. There are not justbasic army skills, but basic
Armoured Corps skills, livingand fighting as a crew, map and
compass skills, controllingfires. There are many basic
skills that reserve regimentscontinue to focus on, such that
(21:21):
when they go off to train,either their own training or
they integrate with regularforce training, Like you said,
those core skills are completelytransferable. And to be honest,
the army is pivoting towardsLatvia heavily, and the reserves
are gonna be a a criticalcomponent, not just for the
army, but within the armor corpsto make sure that the army can
(21:42):
deliver on the requirements forLatvia.
And so these core skills thatthe reserve regiments focus on
make them easily integratedwithin these rotations. So our
reserves, their trainingprogram, their qualifications,
all of those pathways are thesame as the regular force for
us. Mhmm. The tactics thereserves use are the same
tactics the regular forces use.And so by by having this kind of
(22:06):
one core approach throughtraining, through core skills,
battle test standards, It makesus very integrated, regular to
reserve, reserve to regular.
It really does help us with theone core approach.
Capt Orton (22:18):
And what are the expectations for that upcoming
deployment? Like, what is thearmored corps gonna be providing
to the team in Latvia?
Col Auld (22:26):
So the Armoured Corps actually has to force generate
for every rotation going toLatvia. So every single
rotation, the Strathconas willhave to generate half a squadron
for the heavy armor cavalrysquadron that is in Latvia. And
the way it actually is workingnow is every rotation that will
go out the door for the firstfew rotations will be
(22:48):
essentially a half squadronsize. And so that's roughly
we'll call it 60 soldiers, 65soldiers from the Strathconas.
Every single rotation will haveto rotate into Latvia because
there are Leopard twos inLatvia, and so every rotation
needs a fresh wave of leopard 2qualified members of the the
armor corps.
(23:09):
Additionally, there's also acavalry squadron in Latvia as
part of the commitment, and thisis more in the medium light
role. So what that means isevery rotation, either the
dragoons in Petawawa or theDusium in Feklharcier, they will
also have to generate around 60,65 folks to head over to Latvia.
And so every single rotation toLatvia, the armor corps will be
generating forces to land in 2spots in Latvia, either heavy
(23:36):
armor cavalry or the mediumslash light role. And so it will
be demanding. We will be drawingheavily on our armor reserve
units to support this becausethis commitment is expected
obviously to last for manyyears.
Yeah. And so every rotation, theArmoured Corps is implicated in
Latvia. We have people in thearmy who wanna operate. We don't
wanna just be sitting inGarrison. We wanna be in the
(23:58):
field soldiering.
Soldiering's hard business. Weneed people ready to operate
because the army is about to gointo a period of high tempo and
constant operations, and we'regonna feel that within the
Armoured Corps. Check your kit.
Capt Orton (24:13):
You know, to the untrained eye, I think a lot of
people may not notice thatthere's been some evolution in,
let's say, armored vehicles,even the difference between,
let's say, a a LAV 2.5 Coyoteand the LAV 6 platform. You
know, from an outsider lookingin perspective, you might just
be like, yeah, big wheels, biggun. What has evolved in terms
(24:34):
of these platforms over the pastcouple of decades?
Col Auld (24:37):
First of all, I'll say, you know, I've made
reference to heavy armouredcavalry, medium armoured
cavalry, light armoured cavalry.The one thing I would throw out
there is the word heavy, medium,and light, that is not
specifically about physicalweight. Okay? That refers to the
role that that particular forceis optimized for. And within
(24:57):
history, within our world,there's an accepted idea of this
thing called the iron triangle.
You end up when you're designingforces or you're buying
platforms, you're trying tobalance mobility, firepower, and
protection because whenever youkind of overweight one of those,
you usually have to give up onone or the other, and so it's a
constant battle to weight thoseand balance those. And so if you
(25:20):
were to look at heavy armouredcavalry, this is kind of a force
that is optimized more for closecombat. The close fight, hence,
it would have a heavierweighting more on firepower and
protection, and so you'd have togive up a little bit on the
mobility side.
Capt Orton (25:32):
Right.
Col Auld (25:33):
Whereas if you look on the other end of the kind of
armoured cavalry spectrum and goto a light armoured cavalry
force, this is a force thatwould be optimized more for wide
ranging movements and maneuver,maybe on a flank, operations on
a flank or rear area. So you'reable to reduce the amount of
firepower, reduce theprotection, but enhance the
(25:54):
mobility piece. And so, youknow, you you look to optimize
your forces based on the rolethat you see them playing on the
battlefield. The reason I throwall that out there is what we're
seeing in terms of the evolutionof armoured vehicles is this
idea of trying to manage theiron triangle to make vehicles,
(26:15):
as an example, more lethal. Sogreater firepower, greater
protection, greater mobility,but lighter physical weight.
Mhmm. So you would end up with avehicle that would still be
optimized for close combat. Soit would still be a heavy
armoured cavalry vehicle, butthe physical weight of it might
be half the weight of today'svehicles. And so there's armies
(26:37):
out there and there'smanufacturers out there that
that is their design challenge.Like, I want a vehicle that is
better protected, morefirepower, and can move better
than today's tanks, but I wantit to weigh less than 50 tonnes.
And so people are going afterthat with new armor
technologies, different gunsystems and ammunition systems,
better engine technologies,including active protection
(27:01):
systems. Instead of justtypically armor is thought of,
well, I need more protection.Let's just make the armour
thicker, which then just makesthe vehicle physically heavier.
Capt Orton (27:09):
Yeah. Thick metal.
Col Auld (27:11):
And then it ends up you know, you can't fly it
anywhere. It can only go on aship. It takes forever to get
anywhere. You can't maintain it.We're gonna see what is
considered a heavy vehicleoptimized for close combat.
The physical weight's comingdown, And you're gonna see what
is considered a light vehicle,still light, but you'll see
their firepower is kinda comingup. And so my point with all
this is this is where the futureof armored vehicles are. The
(27:34):
future of armored vehicles isalso in optional crewing. So a
lot of the armoured vehicledevelopments that we're seeing,
it is a vehicle that perhaps hasa two person crew, or you don't
have to have a crew and it canbe remotely controlled or it can
be automated. So we're beginningto see this kind of
collaborative combat approachwhere you have uncrewed
(27:57):
vehicles, whether they're in theair or on the ground.
You have uncrewed vehicles,several of them that are
controlled by a crude vehicle,and this little grouping forms a
little combat grouping on theground. And sometimes you can
also have that crude vehicle notbeing crude, something further
back controlling it. So there'sa lot of movement towards not
(28:17):
just uncrewed and automatedplatforms, both in the air and
on the ground, but alsooptionally crude platforms. So
the idea of kind of remotecontrol, hover tanks, or
something like this, you know,it used to be really science
fiction. There are companies outthere.
There are prototypes out thereof uncrewed, remotely
controlled, automated systemsthat can fight on the ground.
(28:41):
Are they perfect? Not yet, butthey're in development. They're
working towards them. You canfind them open source on the
Internet.
There's a lot of very incrediblekind of developments in the
armor vehicle space, not justfor the armor core, but for the
infantry. Infantry fightingvehicles are undergoing an
evolution. Artillery platformsare undergoing an evolution. But
ultimately, there's a lot ofexciting development in that
(29:03):
space, and and, we wanna be partof it.
Capt Orton (29:06):
As you're describing kind of that development and the
iron triangle aspect, a lot ofmilitary members, I would say,
are familiar with the scene inthe movie Pentagon Wars where
we're talking about thedevelopment of the Bradley
infantry fighting vehicle. And,the iterative design process of
adding features and in a reallychallenging way, let's say. If
(29:27):
you haven't seen it, you gottalook up the clip. It's pretty
entertaining. And I know we'vecome a long way in facing those
problems sometimes, but othertimes, not so much.
Col Auld (29:35):
Yeah. I know. And and so, you know, when the US was
developing the big five in thein the eighties or finalizing
the big five, the Bradley is wasone of them. Some of those
lessons are being used toimprove the way things are
evolving today. So one of thebig terms is this idea of new
platforms have to be futureproofed.
Yeah. They can't be expected tobe perfect platforms right off
(29:58):
the line. They have to be builtin a way that as we learn or as
some new technology, you canrapidly just upgrade the
platform without requiring acomplete redesign. So even the
way these vehicles, these futureplatforms are being created,
it's being done to make themmore adaptable. As we learn and
new things are discovered, youcan rapidly upgrade your
platforms.
Capt Orton (30:18):
We've seen that with the LAV 3, actually. Even while
I was in theater, variants werecoming in that were heavily
upgraded from the way they werepreviously.
Col Auld (30:27):
Yeah. And that's the way that we'll go. And for
whatever it's worth on my side,what I try to influence is, you
know, we don't need the perfectsolutions. What we need to do is
get to good enough, snap thechalk line, get it moving
forward, and then we can improvethese things over time by
upgrading modules, changing outthis, changing out that, making
it better as we learn. But if wejust keep waiting to design a
(30:50):
perfect solution, you'll neverend.
Yeah. You know, technology isjust changing way too quickly.
We need to move forward withsomething.
Capt Orton (30:57):
Perhaps to wrap things up, what is one of those
things for the Armoured Corpsthat your average person outside
would not know what that thingis or, you know, that secret,
let's call it?
Col Auld (31:07):
That's a good question. And there'll probably
be people that wanna debate withme about this, but, Always. So,
you know, the reality is iswithin the Armoured Corps, not
everybody can do it. When you'retrying to crew command a vehicle
or you're part of that vehiclecrew, there's a lot of inputs.
You know, you're trying to watchwhere is the enemy, where are
(31:29):
there just physical dangers,cliffs and potholes and and
swamps, what is my crew doing,where are my fire team partners,
Where's the combat team?
Where where is the battle group?You're trying to do all of that
while also navigating off a map,screaming fire orders at your
crew or giving direction to thedriver. All of that is happening
simultaneously. There's a lotthat you have to do all at the
(31:50):
same time. So for folks in theArmoured Corps, a real strength
is the ability to multitask anddo these things quickly because
you're moving across the groundvery quickly.
The situation in front of you ischanging very quickly. They have
to think fast, multitaskquickly, understand what the
heck's going on really quickly,and our people do that very
(32:11):
well. And so, you know, theArmoured Corps, it has its
challenges right now. We'reworking through some of them
with respect to platformavailability and other things
like this. This is no surpriseto anybody.
We do have a way to move thisforward, and we're getting after
it. But, the Armoured Corps isdefinitely a great place to be.
It plays an important role onthe battlefield. And without
(32:32):
question, we need good peoplecoming into the Corps ready to
work, ready to operate, andready to help us through the
demands of the next decade. Aswe service every single rotation
to Latvia, we need people withtheir bags packed and ready to
go.
Capt Orton (32:45):
Well, I guess if there's any takeaway, that's it.
Is if you want some action inthe Armoured Corps, it's
happening.
Col Auld (32:51):
I'm ready to go. Like, I've got my bags packed just
just in case I get called. Let'sgo.
Capt Orton (32:56):
Nice. I love it. Well, thanks so much for coming
on the Podcast! I reallyappreciate it.
Col Auld (32:59):
Yeah. Thanks for having me. I enjoyed it.
Capt Orton (33:02):
That was Colonel Frasier Auld, director of the
Royal Canadian Armoured Corps.And I am Captain Adam Orton for
the Canadian Army Podcast. Ortonout.
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