May 8, 2024 • 35 mins
Want to know what it takes to get things into gear for a big mission? Colonel Cédric Aspirault from 5 CMBG is preparing to be the first commander of the multinational Forward Land Forces Brigade in Latvia. He’s working with our NATO allies to put the Brigade together and has a lot of thoughts on what is needed to complete the job.
Feel free to contact Captain Adam Orton with any comments or questions:
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Capt Orton (00:08):
Hi. I'm Captain Adam Orton with the Canadian Army
Podcast. Being in charge of abrigade is a big job. You're
responsible for thousands oftroops and have to keep the
whole thing running. It getseven harder when you're
deploying internationally whichis happening now as the Forward
Land Forces Battle Group inLatvia expands to a brigade.
Colonel Cédric Aspirault is theBrigade Commander for 5 Canadian
(00:31):
Mechanized Brigade Group and thefirst commander on the ground
for the Forward Land ForcesBrigade in Latvia. And he's
gonna tell us what it's like toprepare for this task. Welcome
to the podcast, sir!
Col Aspirault (00:42):
Good morning! Nice to be here, Adam.
Capt Orton (00:45):
So pre Ukraine invasion, I know I had a lot of
conversations with people aboutthis, and I know even some other
people had some conversationsabout the concept, "You think
Russia is gonna invade Ukraine?"I was like, "Nah, it'll never
happen." And then like, 24 hourslater, it just like, happened.
What if an adversary tries topush through your brigade?
Col Aspirault (01:06):
We'll be ready.
Capt Orton (01:08):
I love it!
Col Aspirault (01:10):
But the important part of it, it's exactly that.
Do not assume that will nothappen. We have to plan for it
and be ready for it. The greatadvantage that we have, however,
it's that we are there. We aredeveloping a plan there.
The teams that will rehearse,train, will train on the ground
that they might fight on. Theplans that they will develop,
(01:33):
the reconnaissance that theywill conduct, the spots that
they will go and define could bethe one, could be the spot that
they will use to fight. Sothat's a tactical part. On the
operational part, we will beintegrated into the NATO plan,
and that NATO plan iscoordinated throughout the
entire region, and that'simportant because it's not just
(01:56):
a national intent. It's not justLatvia-Canada.
It's not just 11 other countriesthat are part of the team that
will work in a small space. Wewill be part of a bigger thing.
NATO, it's a big thing. NATO isa powerful organization and
we'll be part of it for thattime. So we'll be ready.
Capt Orton (02:18):
Wow. That's a that's a great answer. I like that. So
you've got two big jobs. You'resetting up a brigade and also
somehow you're still runningyour brigade back home.
Col Aspirault (02:29):
Yeah. Building a new brigade in theatre is not
something that happens often, soit's gonna come with a lot of
new challenges. It's building anew headquarters. It's building
a new mission task. It'sbuilding infrastructure also at
the same time and being part ofa great team with the Latvians.
And there are things going onstill in Valcartier, support on
(02:51):
domestic operations, there areother missions that we need to
support. We had a lot ofinvolvement in Op LUMEN
recently, Op HELIOS. So there'stwo things going on: there's
building up that brigade whilecontinuing working with 5 CMBG
and achieving all the missiontasks that we have back home.
(03:12):
So I wanted to make sure that Ihave people close to me in order
to be able to make the rightcall at the right time. So I
selected people that had theright experiences around me and
then I also made sure that wehave a strong headquarters that
continues to work on the currentissues back in Valcartier.
Capt Orton (03:34):
So you're setting up this brigade. Is that the actual
mission? Or, what is yourmission in Latvia?
Col Aspirault (03:40):
The mission is to reinforce the deterrence part.
So that's the first goal. It'sgoing there, reinforce what's
there already, support theLatvian plan, being part of
NATO, and accomplishing ourdeterrence mission. That's my
primary mission. The second partof it will be setting conditions
for those that will follow us.Making sure that the next
(04:02):
brigade headquarters will gointo a structure that will be
completed and a structure thatwill work for them and everybody
else that will follow us.
So we are creating thatstructure. So we are making sure
that we are making the rightdecision at the right time in
order to make sure that the onethat will follow us will not
have to think about how do weestablish ourselves, but mostly
(04:26):
think about how do we fight thatbrigade.
Capt Orton (04:29):
Right. And we're lucky here to have an actual
brigade commander who is aboutto deploy. And we haven't talked
a lot about the concept ofbattle procedure, which is doing
all the stuff to get ready to domilitary stuff. And part of that
is mission analysis, which islooking at this mission is,
like, this is my job. How do Ipick this apart and approach the
(04:50):
different chunks? So what cameout as you went through that
mission analysis? Did youidentify any potential
challenges or anythinginteresting as you were looking
at this?
Col Aspirault (05:00):
Yeah. For the challenges part, it's Roto 0. So
there's things that we don'tknow that we don't know. And so
we'll discover it throughout. Sowhat I wanted to make sure, it's
actually build a team that isbuilding teams. And I don't
wanna be cheesy about that, butI need team builders. And when
you have team builders, you cancreate those little teams that
(05:21):
will find solutions. I like tosay that staff officers that
have friends have solutions.It's exactly what I'm trying to
do.
Capt Orton (05:28):
That's true.
Col Aspirault (05:28):
It's, finding the right people that will make the
right connection to find theright solutions at the right
time. Once you have that, youcan build on what's already
there. Building on the successof Task Force Latvia and
building on the success of thebattle group already established
and the Latvian Brigade that arealready there. So we'll use that
(05:51):
to build the brigade and deployall the resources that we need
in theatre.
Capt Orton (05:56):
So maybe people can understand the scope of things also,
is that growing to in terms ofnumbers?
Col Aspirault (06:06):
So currently, in Latvia, we have just over 1500
people, including ourmultinational partners. And then
when we will deploy the brigadeheadquarters and the brigade
assets and other multinationalnational partners, we will go up
just over 3000 people.
Capt Orton (06:24):
You mentioned a Roto 0, and we actually had an
interesting discussion of thatbefore recording. What does that
actually mean? Do you care todescribe what that means for you
in this context?
Col Aspirault (06:32):
Yeah. It's a great question because usually,
Roto 0 will be the first oneout. But as we know, we already
have a battle group there since2017. We have Task Force Latvia,
a strong headquarters, alreadydeployed there. So what's Roto 0
for us?
So Roto 0 for us will be thedeployment of a brigade
(06:52):
headquarters and also the factthat we will reorganize their
headquarters in order to makesure that the assets already
deployed, for example, theartillery assets that as per our
doctrine will usually reside atthe brigade headquarters level.
Capt Orton (07:09):
Right.
Col Aspirault (07:09):
And that makes it kind of a Roto 0 where there's
going to be new challenges.Headquarters and signals will
bring new wires, new equipment,new communication equipment in
order to create thatheadquarters and make sure that
we can speak and communicate toeverybody that are part of that
brigade.
Capt Orton (07:29):
So truly, you're getting not only new physical
infrastructure and setting itup, but also you are designing
command structures to manage thetroops and what's happening
there that don't currentlyexist.
Col Aspirault (07:43):
Exactly.
So the way that we see it... sotwo things - infrastructure. So
first part, we are bringing anextra 600 to a 1000 people
depending on where it's going tobe and when it's going to be. So
that's the first part. As youknow, Adazi is already pretty
crowded, and we wanna make surethat we are not overcrowding
(08:05):
that camp that will be essentialfor us in the next few years. So
we are building on Adazi, so ournew infrastructure. There is a
new accommodations being built.And also we are building a new
camp in Ciri that is west ofRiga, and that will be a new
camp that will be completed inOctober 2024 where we'll be able
(08:29):
to set up the new headquartersthere. So what's gonna happen,
and that's being part of Roto 0,where we will start in Adazi and
during our tour, we will move toCeri and establish the new
headquarters there.
Capt Orton (08:43):
That's, that's a lot of moving parts.
Col Aspirault (08:45):
It is.
Capt Orton (08:46):
And you got a lot of people working on making that
happen. How do you fit into thebigger picture of what's on the
ground there?
Col Aspirault (08:54):
Yeah. One thing that we will have to change is
when we're getting in, we'rethinking about being a Canadian
brigade, but we will not. We'llhave to think about being a NATO
brigade. As soon as the brigadeheadquarters deploys and gets
in, we'll feed directly underthe NATO division, Multinational
Division North. That's a Denmarkled headquarters in Adazi.
(09:19):
From there, we will also link upthe planning cell in order to
make sure that we fit in theNATO plan. So it's not just
going to be a national plan. Soas you know the region, we have
Estonia north, Latvia, and thenLithuania south, And we know
that there is national plans,but now there is going to be a
(09:40):
new NATO regional plan and wewill be part of that plan. So
one of our first tasks will beto get in, link up with the
planning teams, and make surethat we develop a brigade plan,
line up with the division plan,and line up to the corps plan
that is in Szczecin, Poland. Sowe'll be able to fight
(10:01):
altogether if we need to.
Capt Orton (10:04):
What's happening with the Canadian battle group
on the ground right now?
Col Aspirault (10:08):
So the current Canadian battle group will
continue to train with theLatvian Brigade up to September.
And once they completed theirtraining, their collective
training there, they will joinour brigade, the Forward Land
Forces Brigade, and that will bethe last piece for a full
brigade. And then from there, wewill be able to develop our main
(10:32):
exercise in November that willbe the biggest brigade exercise
that we'll have done for manyyears. But that exercise will
integrate all the new equipmentthat we will have brought
forward into theatre.
Capt Orton (10:48):
So we've been talking about all these chunks,
and it may be hard for somebodyto conceive who doesn't have an
understanding of what that lookslike. Can you describe what 5
CMBG is? What is that brigade?What does a brigade look like?
Col Aspirault (11:00):
Yeah. What's a brigade?
Capt Orton (11:02):
That's right.
Col Aspirault (11:02):
In Canada, what 5 CMBG is, so it's eight different
units. Each unit is between400 and 600 people.
So we have three infantrybattalions, we have one armoured
regiment, one engineer regiment,one artillery regiment, and one
service battalion that willprovide all the logistics to
(11:24):
that brigade. And finally, wehave the headquarters and
signals that will provide theheadquarters part, the staff
officers, and also theconnectivity to make sure that
all those units speak to eachother.
The difference between a homebrigade, like CMBG, and a
deployed brigade is that when wedeploy, what we are going to do,
(11:47):
we will create battle groups.And a battle group is a basic
block of a fighting army. Sowhat we do is we task purposely
build a unit.
So it could be between 400 to a1000 people, but we task
purposely build it, and it couldbe armoured led or infantry led.
(12:11):
And then we'll merge armoured orinfantry to that leading
element. And then we'll addengineers, and we can add also
other assets like artillery inorder to reinforce that. But
it's a small unit that isalready mixed and ready to
fight. In theatre, in Latvia,it's what we have already.
(12:32):
So we have a multinationalCanadian battle group there.
It's already built to fight. Andthen we will have other battle
groups that will join us inorder to accomplish our mission
as part of the Forward LandForces in Latvia.
Capt Orton (12:46):
Yeah. And you bring up a really good point because,
you know, people back home,maybe somebody who hasn't
deployed yet, you spend a lot oftime with your respective group.
Right? Infantry people stay withinfantry people, generally
speaking, and you don't do a lotof combined stuff. But as you're
describing, when you'redeployed, everybody's together
now. So the structure is notablydifferent, and I'm assuming the
(13:07):
reason for that is so that anyorganization potentially
involved in combat has access toall the pieces that they could
possibly want. Whereas in justhaving a pile of infantry is
great, it's limited in whatinfantry does.
Col Aspirault (13:21):
Exactly. And that's the difference between an
infantry battalion and a battlegroup. Like, it's ready to
conduct a task as required, andwe don't have to rearrange the
entire organization just toaccomplish that task. It's
already done, ready, and theytrain together. So they know
each other. They know what theycan do for each other, and they
(13:41):
know how they can help eachother.
Capt Orton (13:44):
Now that you have extra pieces to that too, which
is also contributing nations.Who's coming out to play with
us?
Col Aspirault (13:50):
So we already have many countries with us as
part of the Forward Land ForcesBattle Group. So that's the main
contributors. We can say Italyis already there, or Spain is
already there. But one of themain new contributors will be
Denmark. Denmark will provide afull battle group as part of
that brigade that will be therefor 6 months and will join the
(14:14):
team in August.
However, as we know Swedenjoined NATO on March 7th and we
are extremely proud to say thatthey will join the Forward Land
Forces Latvia starting inJanuary. So their first
deployment as a NATO partnerwill be part of the Forward Land
Forces Latvia, and we are trulylooking forward to work with
(14:36):
Sweden in Latvia.
Capt Orton (14:38):
How do you plan on dealing with integrating these
new elements? You know,different countries have
different ways of doingbusiness. You know, we have our
doctrine. Sometimes there's aperiod of adaptation where we
learn to speak a commonlanguage. What does that look
like to you?
Col Aspirault (14:54):
One great thing about having a multinational
headquarters is I will have apiece of all of those
contributing nations within myheadquarters. So that's gonna
help in the planning process tomake sure that, if I can say
that, translate the Canadian wayto do things to their way to do
things. But also on our side, weare making an effort to do it
(15:16):
the NATO way. It's not a bigdifference, but there's nuances
that are important.
For example, the orders format.We are used to our Canadian way
to write things, but on the NATOpart, they will just change the
sequence a bit. But it's the wayto do it and we've done it
through some of the trainingthat we've done, some of the
exercises, force ourselves tospeak NATO. It's not because I'm
(15:40):
using one mission task that'sclear for every Canadian here.
That's the same thing forDenmark or Spain or other
countries that will be part ofour team. So we have a part to
do in that, making sure that wespeak NATO, but also integrating
every main element within ourheadquarters to make sure that
(16:02):
our orders reflect theirreality, and they understand
exactly what we are trying toachieve.
Capt Orton (16:08):
And so now, also, we have that capacity to learn from
other NATO nations who do thingssimilar to us, but not exactly
the same. So we have a chance tolearn from maybe how they do
things, but also they learn fromus.
Col Aspirault (16:23):
Yeah. For example, we are bringing forward
a new communications system toshare information called
SitaWare. And that we'll mostlyuse at the brigade headquarters,
but also at the battle group'sheadquarters. Denmark has been
using that program for years. Westarted using it during our
training, exercises, and welearned a lot from Denmark, and
(16:46):
that makes us better.
Capt Orton (16:48):
Well, it's interesting because we've been
trying to think of ways todiscuss the concept of better
decision making and doingplanning and then having tools
or software in this case orwhatever, that helps you
minimize the timeline to planand help organize and coordinate
information to be able to gofaster from the planning stage
to the execution stage, I wouldguess.
Col Aspirault (17:10):
It's not just faster. The quality is there
now.
Capt Orton (17:13):
Right.
Col Aspirault (17:13):
It's not PowerPoint based as we all seen,
building a PowerPoint and thenshredding that PowerPoint as
soon a decision is made.
Capt Orton (17:21):
That's right.
Col Aspirault (17:22):
So what's gonna happen is as soon as the
decision is made, the exactcounter measures, for example,
will be transferred to theops side. So there's no single
use products anymore. Everythingthat the planning team thought
about and the details they putinto their work, will be
directly transferred toeverybody that is part of the
(17:43):
brigade. And that program canbring live data so we can
actually see the planning workin real time.
Capt Orton (17:52):
Hypothetically, you're gonna have all the blocks
on the ground. You're gonna bethere. You're gonna have
multiple nations contributing.What's gonna happen while you're
there? What are you gonna doother than constructing those
structures and maybe doing someplanning? What's what's the day
to day for an average soldier?
Col Aspirault (18:07):
There's a lot of new equipment being pushed
forward. And one thing that wewanted to make sure that the new
equipment is well integrated. Sowe'll make sure that the troops
have time to use that newequipment to make sure that they
understand what's the impact ofit and find a good way to use
it. We experienced it before inWainwright with tax, the system
(18:28):
where we gave it to 12 RBC wherethey used the equipment. They
actually, after a few weeks,they were better than the
technician that developed thatsystem and it's what we wanna do
in Latvia. So as soon as we havenew equipment, we'll give time
to the troops to train on it,experience it, and test it, and
see what they can do with it andbe better at it. So on the day
(18:52):
to day basis, troops will notjust be involved in training as
collective training, but alsoexperiencing new equipment that
will be pushed forward.
Capt Orton (19:00):
And they'll be doing exercises as well, I guess.
What's that gonna look like?
Col Aspirault (19:05):
Exactly. So after they've done their individual
training, test the equipment, wewill do collective training. So
collective training will be doneat the battle group level and
then the NATO exercise will bepushed on us. Could be just the
headquarters that will conductthe exercise, and sometimes it
will be a field exercise wherethe headquarters will also
(19:25):
deploy with the troops and willconduct the exercise altogether.
So many training exercises thatwill enhance our techniques and
firefighting skills, but alsoexercises that will practise and
confirm that way that we speakand work with every nation
deployed with us.
Capt Orton (19:45):
So we have all these larger scale training
opportunities, and from that,I'm assuming there's gonna be
some really cool stuff happeningin terms of training.
Col Aspirault (19:53):
That's the beauty of being part of that NATO plan
because there's going to be newtraining opportunities that
we will seize. There's peoplethat deployed in Latvia before
that trained in Adazi for mostof the tour. But what we're
gonna do is we'll findopportunities to train with the
flanking units. If there is anopportunity to go train in
Estonia, we will seize it andwe'll send troops there and
(20:16):
train with Estonian troops, butalso it's not just training. If
I push a company there, I willgive them time to visit Estonia.
It's the new way to do thingswhile we are in Europe. Let's
see it. Let's see more thanAdazi. Let's see more than Riga.
Let's give the opportunity tothe troops that are deploying to
(20:37):
go see those beautiful countriesthat are Estonia, Lithuania,
Poland, if we can, but at leastseize regional opportunities to
train, but also to experienceEurope and see it while you're
there.
Capt Orton (20:51):
So for sure right now, somebody is holding their
phone yelling, "What newequipment? Tell me about the new
equipment!" So you wanna tell usabout that?
Col Aspirault (20:59):
Yeah. So on the individual side, so as you've
seen, we're actually wearing it,there's the new combat uniform
coming in. 5 Brigade alreadystarted weeks ago signing out
the new uniform. We also havethe new pistol, C22, awesome
pistol. And then there's goingto be new drones coming in, that
will be very interesting. Also,I've seen it a few times. The
(21:22):
troops have already trained withit. Awesome assets. Also, we'll
have air defense coming in a bitlater, and we'll have counter
UAS also will come into theatre.So new equipment, new
communication equipment that'sgonna help us with manoeuvering
the brigade headquarters asdispersed as we can while being
(21:44):
able to share the information.
So new technology broughtforward, new equipment, and
there's other pieces that willcome in. But one thing that's
going to be interesting also forthe troops, it's the fact that
the equipment will not sit inCanada. The equipment, as soon
as we get it and it's ready, itwill be pushed forward. And so
(22:05):
there's pieces that the troopswill only have access to when
they are in Latvia.
Capt Orton (22:11):
I just wanna highlight the dispersed
headquarters idea becausethere's been a lot of
philosophical conversationaround the headquarters recently
about the idea of either, like,you know, a centralized
headquarters or a dispersedheadquarters. What is the value
of a dispersed headquarters?
Col Aspirault (22:27):
I like to go back to doctrine, often.
Capt Orton (22:29):
That's right.
Col Aspirault (22:29):
Yeah. There's many things written in doctrine
that we forget about, and whenwe go back to our books to say,
"Oh yeah, it does exist."
So one of the functions that wehave to do is protection. How do
I protect my headquarters? Andthere's many ways to protect the
headquarters. We can create abubble. As we've seen in
Afghanistan, the way that wewere the headquarters, it's
(22:50):
being underneath a bubble,a radar bubble with other assets
that was protecting theheadquarters.
So in this case, beingcentralized, tight, and big, was
the way to do it. That was theway to protect the headquarters.
In Latvia, it's different. Andas we learned in Ukraine, it's
(23:11):
better to be dispersed. Sothat's the way that we protect
the the headquarters.
And it's not just protectingcommand, but it's to make sure
that we create a resilientheadquarters. So if something
happens to one of the parts, therest of it can function. So
dispersed headquarters is justanother way to protect the
headquarters with the tools thatI have at this time. There's
(23:33):
many articles being written atthis time on dispersed
headquarters around the world.And it's not just to be able to
sustain a strike, but it's alsohow we camouflage ourselves.
Like, how do we hide in thattransparent battlefield where
everybody knows where everybodyis from satellite views or to be
(23:58):
able to use electronic warfareto see how communications are
being transmitted throughout thebattlefield. So how do I hide my
brigaded headquarters withtransmissions and also hiding
the view, the satellite view,and also how do I make sure that
I'm resilient. So dispersedheadquarters, it's one of the
(24:21):
answers, but it's not all of it.We need to think about
protection as a whole. And as abrigade commander, I need to
take everything in considerationto make sure that I am able to
be a resilient headquarters andbe able to command and control
throughout the operation.
Capt Orton (24:39):
You know, it's "One Army", and for those that know
how the Reserves fit into thewhole picture, it's not a
separate group of peopleexplicitly. But have you given
any thought to how the Reservesfit into this plan?
Col Aspirault (24:51):
Well, reservists are essential in this plan. We
saw the success of integratingreservists at the right time in
Afghanistan.
Capt Orton (24:59):
Yeah.
Col Aspirault (24:59):
We were able to sustain Afghanistan because of
the help of the reservists. It'ssustaining operations forward.
So that's one thing. Secondthing, it's to also find or
expose people, reservists, towhat the Reg Force is and
provide them an opportunity tojoin the team. And you know
(25:19):
what? After a tour, the level ofexpertise is the same. We don't
see any difference between acorporal coming from 1st Van Doo
and a corporal coming from 6thVan Doo - that is a Reserve
unit. And we want to maintainand keep that quality soldier
within the Reg Force . So ifthere's opportunities and
exposure to reservists, we willmake that happen.
(25:42):
We have great success at the 2ndDivision. We changed the way to
do things. We used to just havea block of positions designed
for reservists and say, okay,they will do force protection.
Capt Orton (25:56):
Yeah. That's right. The classic.
Col Aspirault (25:58):
Yeah. But it's not the best task for anybody,
actually. So what we've done, isfirst we asked all the
reservists within the 2ndDivision who is available to
deploy and when. And that's animportant question because
reservists have a life. Theyhave a different life. They go
to school, they have a real job,and they are doing something
(26:19):
different. So we got a surveyout. We got many answers, and we
developed the plan based onavailability of the troops. We
said, "Okay, this person isavailable in January 2024.
Actually, I have time to trainthem and make them a LAV
driver." I have some peopleavailable later. Okay. There's
(26:40):
other tasks, other positionsthat require less specific
training or qualifications. Sowe task tailor, I will not say
reservist positions, likebrigade positions and make sure
that it's transparent foreverybody.
I have reservists everywhere,it's not just force protection,
(27:00):
and they are throughout thebattle groups, throughout the
brigade quarters, throughoutRecce squadron, artillery,
logistics. So I was able to takereservists from every unit
within the division. And youknow what? They will feel like
part of the full team.
It's not just a group ofreservists together. They are
part of the Reg Force and theyare throughout the brigade. And
(27:23):
so far, we are over 20% and I'mlooking forward to see how many
people that will stay part ofthat team because I need new
people within the brigade and Ineed great people. And
hopefully, there's reserviststhat will want to join the
brigade after the tour.
Capt Orton (27:39):
I'll confirm, by the way, because I looked at
the task brick, just out ofcuriosity to see what they were
at, and it's about 1600positions right now with about
400 reservists filling thosepositions. So it's a real thing.
Like, the number there isnotable. That's what I'll say.
Col Aspirault (27:55):
And, again, we have to do it now. Like, it's
not let's wait that we needpeople.
Capt Orton (28:00):
That's right.
Col Aspirault (28:00):
We have to do it now and we have to do it
properly also. Because if that21% that we have did not enjoy
their experience, did not learnor were treated as only
reservists for the tour, theywill not come back and that's
not sustainable. It's a "OneArmy" thing. We need to do it
together, and we need toappreciate the help of people
(28:22):
that will actually take time offtheir work. They will put their
school aside for a year to bepart of that great thing.
Capt Orton (28:32):
So, obviously, because it's a brigade, we're
not rotating out a whole brigadein one shot, and it's probably
different chunks at differenttimes. But roughly, how long are
people gonna be spending on theground?
Col Aspirault (28:43):
Roughly, people will spend 6 months on the
ground. It's going to be anormal tour, what we've seen
before. And there's a few keypositions that will be there for
1 year. For example, myself, mySergeant Major, and my Chief of
Staff will be there for oneyear. However, the bulk of the
troops will be there for sixmonths. The first battle group
will be there from June toDecember from 2 Van Doo from
(29:07):
Valcartier and then will bereplaced by assets from 1
Brigade. Then in June of 2025,the entire brigade will be
replaced by personal from 2Brigade from Petawawa.
Capt Orton (29:21):
So it's just kinda like a stew. You got some stuff,
it's going in. You got someother stuff, you're taking it
out. It's kinda rolling. Alittle bit of everything
happening at the same time.
Col Aspirault (29:28):
Exactly.
Capt Orton (29:30):
Throughout this whole thing, we've been talking
a lot about technical stuff andkind of how all the pieces come
together. I would assume at yourlevel, you know, there's a lot
of moving parts and all of that,and different people lead in
different ways. How would youdescribe your command philosophy
when you're approaching theseproblems?
Col Aspirault (29:49):
That's a great question. When I went in 5
Brigade, I had that same thoughtor same reflection as any new
commander coming into theatre.However, commanding 5 Brigade is
one thing, but commanding amultinational brigade, it's
another thing. However, there isa concept that are important to
(30:11):
me that I'm keeping and I'mbringing forward with me, if I
can say that. It's making surethat the troops that are working
with us are experts oneverything that they are doing.
Making sure that my tankers arethe experts in tanks, that the
infantry are the experts ininfantry.
(30:31):
And sometimes we believe it'sobvious, but it's not because we
don't give them time to do that.And I wanna make sure that I
give them time to do that, to bethe expert into their own trade.
Once we do that, we make surethat they fit with each other
and they are able to fighttogether. So to bring the
expertise and trusting eachother in order to conduct the
(30:54):
exercises or to fight together,and they understand what they
are doing. So for me, it'sextremely important to see a
brigade is not 4000 individuals.
It's not ten companies. It's noteight units. It's one brigade.
One brigade together isextremely strong and everybody
enables each other and everybodyas part of that brigade makes
(31:18):
the brigade itself extremelystrong. So we start at every
level. We want to make sure thatwe give them time to be an
expert in what they do, and thenwe build together, in order to
be able to fight a brigade,exercise a brigade.
Capt Orton (31:32):
And we can see, like, when we apply that
approach, again Afghanistan is agreat example, is people come
back with that level ofexpertise, and it has a follow
on, or a lingering effect thatpeople transmit that expertise
and learn those lessons and passthem on. And then it has, like,
a ongoing impact on a lot of thetrades as a whole on how to do
(31:52):
things better.
Col Aspirault (31:52):
Yeah. And people are learning from that. Like, if
you spend your entire life aspart of the armoured regiment,
you will not understand how muchbetter you can be if you're
working without infantry andvice versa. You will not
understand what's the artilleryfirepower until it's actually
being used in front of you.
Capt Orton (32:12):
That's right.
Col Aspirault (32:13):
So working together in theatre, creates
links and understanding that'shard to understand, but we need
to do it and experience ittogether. And every expertise
merged together makes somethingincredibly strong and nice to
see.
Capt Orton (32:28):
I recently had a discussion with somebody and
we're talking about leadershipwithin an organization. There's
the human side where it's likehow you connect with people and,
you know, you be yourself, youknow, like Adam Orton "human
being" versus Captain AdamOrton. And also connecting with
the people that you work withwhere sometimes regardless of
(32:49):
how human you want to be, you'rea representative of
your organizationand as a higher leader more so.
And sometimes you have toconnect with humans as a human.
With a big deployment like thisand all of this stuff, there's a
lot of leadership weight on yourshoulders, obviously. How do you
manage the human side of being anormal person and connecting
with your troops while they'reon deployment?
Col Aspirault (33:11):
You need to be yourself. Like, you are not a
commander because you've beensomebody different throughout
your years. You've been chosenfor what you've done before and
not for what exactly what youare now or what you could be. So
there are things that you needto be yourself. One thing that's
important for me is to trust myteam, is to enable them to do
(33:32):
their job.
Because if I do not trust them,I will want to do what they are
doing or check everything thatthey are doing. And if I do
that, I will not be able tocommand properly and take time
to reflect on what needs tohappen later. So trust for me
when we talk about missioncommand, it's one thing, but
sometimes we need to reflect onwhat mission command is, but
(33:53):
it's all based on trust. Andtrusting your troops, trusting
your commanders, trusting yourkey staff is essential to make a
brigade work. Because as acommander, you don't have time
to do everybody's job. You needto do your own job and let
everybody else do their own jobwithin their own expertise. And
make sure that they are able todo it and give them the tools to
(34:16):
be better at what they do. Butin order to be better at what
they do, you have to give themthe space to do it. But it's all
based on trust.
I really like that. That's areally good answer because I
feel like mission command inparticular, which is the act of
basically delegating andtrusting your subordinates that
they just do the job that youtold them to do, is a really
(34:37):
powerful tool that a lot ofpeople don't understand and is
really useful.
And sometimes technology isgonna go against that because as
a commander, I can see whatsection number 1 can do. And
it's easy for a commander towanna move section number 1. But
it's not my job to do it. And Ineed to to realize that and make
sure that I give the space toany commanders that are part of
(35:00):
that to do that and let them go.
Capt Orton (35:02):
Well, thanks so much for being on the podcast, sir. I
really appreciate it.
Col Aspirault (35:05):
Thank you for giving me the time. It was a
great opportunity.
Capt Orton (35:08):
Alright. Well, that was Colonel Cédric Aspirault,
who is the brigade commander at5 CMBG and the future commander
on the ground of the ForwardLand Forces Brigade in Latvia.
And I'm Captain Adam Orton forthe Canadian Army Podcast. Orton
out.
Hi. I'm Captain Adam Orton with the Canadian Army
Podcast. Being in charge of abrigade is a big job. You're
responsible for thousands oftroops and have to keep the
whole thing running. It getseven harder when you're
deploying internationally whichis happening now as the Forward
Land Forces Battle Group inLatvia expands to a brigade.
Colonel Cédric Aspirault is theBrigade Commander for 5 Canadian
(00:31):
Mechanized Brigade Group and thefirst commander on the ground
for the Forward Land ForcesBrigade in Latvia. And he's
gonna tell us what it's like toprepare for this task. Welcome
to the podcast, sir!
Col Aspirault (00:42):
Good morning! Nice to be here, Adam.
Capt Orton (00:45):
So pre Ukraine invasion, I know I had a lot of
conversations with people aboutthis, and I know even some other
people had some conversationsabout the concept, "You think
Russia is gonna invade Ukraine?"I was like, "Nah, it'll never
happen." And then like, 24 hourslater, it just like, happened.
What if an adversary tries topush through your brigade?
Col Aspirault (01:06):
We'll be ready.
Capt Orton (01:08):
I love it!
Col Aspirault (01:10):
But the important part of it, it's exactly that.
Do not assume that will nothappen. We have to plan for it
and be ready for it. The greatadvantage that we have, however,
it's that we are there. We aredeveloping a plan there.
The teams that will rehearse,train, will train on the ground
that they might fight on. Theplans that they will develop,
(01:33):
the reconnaissance that theywill conduct, the spots that
they will go and define could bethe one, could be the spot that
they will use to fight. Sothat's a tactical part. On the
operational part, we will beintegrated into the NATO plan,
and that NATO plan iscoordinated throughout the
entire region, and that'simportant because it's not just
(01:56):
a national intent. It's not justLatvia-Canada.
It's not just 11 other countriesthat are part of the team that
will work in a small space. Wewill be part of a bigger thing.
NATO, it's a big thing. NATO isa powerful organization and
we'll be part of it for thattime. So we'll be ready.
Capt Orton (02:18):
Wow. That's a that's a great answer. I like that. So
you've got two big jobs. You'resetting up a brigade and also
somehow you're still runningyour brigade back home.
Col Aspirault (02:29):
Yeah. Building a new brigade in theatre is not
something that happens often, soit's gonna come with a lot of
new challenges. It's building anew headquarters. It's building
a new mission task. It'sbuilding infrastructure also at
the same time and being part ofa great team with the Latvians.
And there are things going onstill in Valcartier, support on
(02:51):
domestic operations, there areother missions that we need to
support. We had a lot ofinvolvement in Op LUMEN
recently, Op HELIOS. So there'stwo things going on: there's
building up that brigade whilecontinuing working with 5 CMBG
and achieving all the missiontasks that we have back home.
(03:12):
So I wanted to make sure that Ihave people close to me in order
to be able to make the rightcall at the right time. So I
selected people that had theright experiences around me and
then I also made sure that wehave a strong headquarters that
continues to work on the currentissues back in Valcartier.
Capt Orton (03:34):
So you're setting up this brigade. Is that the actual
mission? Or, what is yourmission in Latvia?
Col Aspirault (03:40):
The mission is to reinforce the deterrence part.
So that's the first goal. It'sgoing there, reinforce what's
there already, support theLatvian plan, being part of
NATO, and accomplishing ourdeterrence mission. That's my
primary mission. The second partof it will be setting conditions
for those that will follow us.Making sure that the next
(04:02):
brigade headquarters will gointo a structure that will be
completed and a structure thatwill work for them and everybody
else that will follow us.
So we are creating thatstructure. So we are making sure
that we are making the rightdecision at the right time in
order to make sure that the onethat will follow us will not
have to think about how do weestablish ourselves, but mostly
(04:26):
think about how do we fight thatbrigade.
Capt Orton (04:29):
Right. And we're lucky here to have an actual
brigade commander who is aboutto deploy. And we haven't talked
a lot about the concept ofbattle procedure, which is doing
all the stuff to get ready to domilitary stuff. And part of that
is mission analysis, which islooking at this mission is,
like, this is my job. How do Ipick this apart and approach the
(04:50):
different chunks? So what cameout as you went through that
mission analysis? Did youidentify any potential
challenges or anythinginteresting as you were looking
at this?
Col Aspirault (05:00):
Yeah. For the challenges part, it's Roto 0. So
there's things that we don'tknow that we don't know. And so
we'll discover it throughout. Sowhat I wanted to make sure, it's
actually build a team that isbuilding teams. And I don't
wanna be cheesy about that, butI need team builders. And when
you have team builders, you cancreate those little teams that
(05:21):
will find solutions. I like tosay that staff officers that
have friends have solutions.It's exactly what I'm trying to
do.
Capt Orton (05:28):
That's true.
Col Aspirault (05:28):
It's, finding the right people that will make the
right connection to find theright solutions at the right
time. Once you have that, youcan build on what's already
there. Building on the successof Task Force Latvia and
building on the success of thebattle group already established
and the Latvian Brigade that arealready there. So we'll use that
(05:51):
to build the brigade and deployall the resources that we need
in theatre.
Capt Orton (05:56):
So maybe people can understand the scope of things also,
is that growing to in terms ofnumbers?
Col Aspirault (06:06):
So currently, in Latvia, we have just over 1500
people, including ourmultinational partners. And then
when we will deploy the brigadeheadquarters and the brigade
assets and other multinationalnational partners, we will go up
just over 3000 people.
Capt Orton (06:24):
You mentioned a Roto 0, and we actually had an
interesting discussion of thatbefore recording. What does that
actually mean? Do you care todescribe what that means for you
in this context?
Col Aspirault (06:32):
Yeah. It's a great question because usually,
Roto 0 will be the first oneout. But as we know, we already
have a battle group there since2017. We have Task Force Latvia,
a strong headquarters, alreadydeployed there. So what's Roto 0
for us?
So Roto 0 for us will be thedeployment of a brigade
(06:52):
headquarters and also the factthat we will reorganize their
headquarters in order to makesure that the assets already
deployed, for example, theartillery assets that as per our
doctrine will usually reside atthe brigade headquarters level.
Capt Orton (07:09):
Right.
Col Aspirault (07:09):
And that makes it kind of a Roto 0 where there's
going to be new challenges.Headquarters and signals will
bring new wires, new equipment,new communication equipment in
order to create thatheadquarters and make sure that
we can speak and communicate toeverybody that are part of that
brigade.
Capt Orton (07:29):
So truly, you're getting not only new physical
infrastructure and setting itup, but also you are designing
command structures to manage thetroops and what's happening
there that don't currentlyexist.
Col Aspirault (07:43):
Exactly.
So the way that we see it... sotwo things - infrastructure. So
first part, we are bringing anextra 600 to a 1000 people
depending on where it's going tobe and when it's going to be. So
that's the first part. As youknow, Adazi is already pretty
crowded, and we wanna make surethat we are not overcrowding
(08:05):
that camp that will be essentialfor us in the next few years. So
we are building on Adazi, so ournew infrastructure. There is a
new accommodations being built.And also we are building a new
camp in Ciri that is west ofRiga, and that will be a new
camp that will be completed inOctober 2024 where we'll be able
(08:29):
to set up the new headquartersthere. So what's gonna happen,
and that's being part of Roto 0,where we will start in Adazi and
during our tour, we will move toCeri and establish the new
headquarters there.
Capt Orton (08:43):
That's, that's a lot of moving parts.
Col Aspirault (08:45):
It is.
Capt Orton (08:46):
And you got a lot of people working on making that
happen. How do you fit into thebigger picture of what's on the
ground there?
Col Aspirault (08:54):
Yeah. One thing that we will have to change is
when we're getting in, we'rethinking about being a Canadian
brigade, but we will not. We'llhave to think about being a NATO
brigade. As soon as the brigadeheadquarters deploys and gets
in, we'll feed directly underthe NATO division, Multinational
Division North. That's a Denmarkled headquarters in Adazi.
(09:19):
From there, we will also link upthe planning cell in order to
make sure that we fit in theNATO plan. So it's not just
going to be a national plan. Soas you know the region, we have
Estonia north, Latvia, and thenLithuania south, And we know
that there is national plans,but now there is going to be a
(09:40):
new NATO regional plan and wewill be part of that plan. So
one of our first tasks will beto get in, link up with the
planning teams, and make surethat we develop a brigade plan,
line up with the division plan,and line up to the corps plan
that is in Szczecin, Poland. Sowe'll be able to fight
(10:01):
altogether if we need to.
Capt Orton (10:04):
What's happening with the Canadian battle group
on the ground right now?
Col Aspirault (10:08):
So the current Canadian battle group will
continue to train with theLatvian Brigade up to September.
And once they completed theirtraining, their collective
training there, they will joinour brigade, the Forward Land
Forces Brigade, and that will bethe last piece for a full
brigade. And then from there, wewill be able to develop our main
(10:32):
exercise in November that willbe the biggest brigade exercise
that we'll have done for manyyears. But that exercise will
integrate all the new equipmentthat we will have brought
forward into theatre.
Capt Orton (10:48):
So we've been talking about all these chunks,
and it may be hard for somebodyto conceive who doesn't have an
understanding of what that lookslike. Can you describe what 5
CMBG is? What is that brigade?What does a brigade look like?
Col Aspirault (11:00):
Yeah. What's a brigade?
Capt Orton (11:02):
That's right.
Col Aspirault (11:02):
In Canada, what 5 CMBG is, so it's eight different
units. Each unit is between400 and 600 people.
So we have three infantrybattalions, we have one armoured
regiment, one engineer regiment,one artillery regiment, and one
service battalion that willprovide all the logistics to
(11:24):
that brigade. And finally, wehave the headquarters and
signals that will provide theheadquarters part, the staff
officers, and also theconnectivity to make sure that
all those units speak to eachother.
The difference between a homebrigade, like CMBG, and a
deployed brigade is that when wedeploy, what we are going to do,
(11:47):
we will create battle groups.And a battle group is a basic
block of a fighting army. Sowhat we do is we task purposely
build a unit.
So it could be between 400 to a1000 people, but we task
purposely build it, and it couldbe armoured led or infantry led.
(12:11):
And then we'll merge armoured orinfantry to that leading
element. And then we'll addengineers, and we can add also
other assets like artillery inorder to reinforce that. But
it's a small unit that isalready mixed and ready to
fight. In theatre, in Latvia,it's what we have already.
(12:32):
So we have a multinationalCanadian battle group there.
It's already built to fight. Andthen we will have other battle
groups that will join us inorder to accomplish our mission
as part of the Forward LandForces in Latvia.
Capt Orton (12:46):
Yeah. And you bring up a really good point because,
you know, people back home,maybe somebody who hasn't
deployed yet, you spend a lot oftime with your respective group.
Right? Infantry people stay withinfantry people, generally
speaking, and you don't do a lotof combined stuff. But as you're
describing, when you'redeployed, everybody's together
now. So the structure is notablydifferent, and I'm assuming the
(13:07):
reason for that is so that anyorganization potentially
involved in combat has access toall the pieces that they could
possibly want. Whereas in justhaving a pile of infantry is
great, it's limited in whatinfantry does.
Col Aspirault (13:21):
Exactly. And that's the difference between an
infantry battalion and a battlegroup. Like, it's ready to
conduct a task as required, andwe don't have to rearrange the
entire organization just toaccomplish that task. It's
already done, ready, and theytrain together. So they know
each other. They know what theycan do for each other, and they
(13:41):
know how they can help eachother.
Capt Orton (13:44):
Now that you have extra pieces to that too, which
is also contributing nations.Who's coming out to play with
us?
Col Aspirault (13:50):
So we already have many countries with us as
part of the Forward Land ForcesBattle Group. So that's the main
contributors. We can say Italyis already there, or Spain is
already there. But one of themain new contributors will be
Denmark. Denmark will provide afull battle group as part of
that brigade that will be therefor 6 months and will join the
(14:14):
team in August.
However, as we know Swedenjoined NATO on March 7th and we
are extremely proud to say thatthey will join the Forward Land
Forces Latvia starting inJanuary. So their first
deployment as a NATO partnerwill be part of the Forward Land
Forces Latvia, and we are trulylooking forward to work with
(14:36):
Sweden in Latvia.
Capt Orton (14:38):
How do you plan on dealing with integrating these
new elements? You know,different countries have
different ways of doingbusiness. You know, we have our
doctrine. Sometimes there's aperiod of adaptation where we
learn to speak a commonlanguage. What does that look
like to you?
Col Aspirault (14:54):
One great thing about having a multinational
headquarters is I will have apiece of all of those
contributing nations within myheadquarters. So that's gonna
help in the planning process tomake sure that, if I can say
that, translate the Canadian wayto do things to their way to do
things. But also on our side, weare making an effort to do it
(15:16):
the NATO way. It's not a bigdifference, but there's nuances
that are important.
For example, the orders format.We are used to our Canadian way
to write things, but on the NATOpart, they will just change the
sequence a bit. But it's the wayto do it and we've done it
through some of the trainingthat we've done, some of the
exercises, force ourselves tospeak NATO. It's not because I'm
(15:40):
using one mission task that'sclear for every Canadian here.
That's the same thing forDenmark or Spain or other
countries that will be part ofour team. So we have a part to
do in that, making sure that wespeak NATO, but also integrating
every main element within ourheadquarters to make sure that
(16:02):
our orders reflect theirreality, and they understand
exactly what we are trying toachieve.
Capt Orton (16:08):
And so now, also, we have that capacity to learn from
other NATO nations who do thingssimilar to us, but not exactly
the same. So we have a chance tolearn from maybe how they do
things, but also they learn fromus.
Col Aspirault (16:23):
Yeah. For example, we are bringing forward
a new communications system toshare information called
SitaWare. And that we'll mostlyuse at the brigade headquarters,
but also at the battle group'sheadquarters. Denmark has been
using that program for years. Westarted using it during our
training, exercises, and welearned a lot from Denmark, and
(16:46):
that makes us better.
Capt Orton (16:48):
Well, it's interesting because we've been
trying to think of ways todiscuss the concept of better
decision making and doingplanning and then having tools
or software in this case orwhatever, that helps you
minimize the timeline to planand help organize and coordinate
information to be able to gofaster from the planning stage
to the execution stage, I wouldguess.
Col Aspirault (17:10):
It's not just faster. The quality is there
now.
Capt Orton (17:13):
Right.
Col Aspirault (17:13):
It's not PowerPoint based as we all seen,
building a PowerPoint and thenshredding that PowerPoint as
soon a decision is made.
Capt Orton (17:21):
That's right.
Col Aspirault (17:22):
So what's gonna happen is as soon as the
decision is made, the exactcounter measures, for example,
will be transferred to theops side. So there's no single
use products anymore. Everythingthat the planning team thought
about and the details they putinto their work, will be
directly transferred toeverybody that is part of the
(17:43):
brigade. And that program canbring live data so we can
actually see the planning workin real time.
Capt Orton (17:52):
Hypothetically, you're gonna have all the blocks
on the ground. You're gonna bethere. You're gonna have
multiple nations contributing.What's gonna happen while you're
there? What are you gonna doother than constructing those
structures and maybe doing someplanning? What's what's the day
to day for an average soldier?
Col Aspirault (18:07):
There's a lot of new equipment being pushed
forward. And one thing that wewanted to make sure that the new
equipment is well integrated. Sowe'll make sure that the troops
have time to use that newequipment to make sure that they
understand what's the impact ofit and find a good way to use
it. We experienced it before inWainwright with tax, the system
(18:28):
where we gave it to 12 RBC wherethey used the equipment. They
actually, after a few weeks,they were better than the
technician that developed thatsystem and it's what we wanna do
in Latvia. So as soon as we havenew equipment, we'll give time
to the troops to train on it,experience it, and test it, and
see what they can do with it andbe better at it. So on the day
(18:52):
to day basis, troops will notjust be involved in training as
collective training, but alsoexperiencing new equipment that
will be pushed forward.
Capt Orton (19:00):
And they'll be doing exercises as well, I guess.
What's that gonna look like?
Col Aspirault (19:05):
Exactly. So after they've done their individual
training, test the equipment, wewill do collective training. So
collective training will be doneat the battle group level and
then the NATO exercise will bepushed on us. Could be just the
headquarters that will conductthe exercise, and sometimes it
will be a field exercise wherethe headquarters will also
(19:25):
deploy with the troops and willconduct the exercise altogether.
So many training exercises thatwill enhance our techniques and
firefighting skills, but alsoexercises that will practise and
confirm that way that we speakand work with every nation
deployed with us.
Capt Orton (19:45):
So we have all these larger scale training
opportunities, and from that,I'm assuming there's gonna be
some really cool stuff happeningin terms of training.
Col Aspirault (19:53):
That's the beauty of being part of that NATO plan
because there's going to be newtraining opportunities that
we will seize. There's peoplethat deployed in Latvia before
that trained in Adazi for mostof the tour. But what we're
gonna do is we'll findopportunities to train with the
flanking units. If there is anopportunity to go train in
Estonia, we will seize it andwe'll send troops there and
(20:16):
train with Estonian troops, butalso it's not just training. If
I push a company there, I willgive them time to visit Estonia.
It's the new way to do thingswhile we are in Europe. Let's
see it. Let's see more thanAdazi. Let's see more than Riga.
Let's give the opportunity tothe troops that are deploying to
(20:37):
go see those beautiful countriesthat are Estonia, Lithuania,
Poland, if we can, but at leastseize regional opportunities to
train, but also to experienceEurope and see it while you're
there.
Capt Orton (20:51):
So for sure right now, somebody is holding their
phone yelling, "What newequipment? Tell me about the new
equipment!" So you wanna tell usabout that?
Col Aspirault (20:59):
Yeah. So on the individual side, so as you've
seen, we're actually wearing it,there's the new combat uniform
coming in. 5 Brigade alreadystarted weeks ago signing out
the new uniform. We also havethe new pistol, C22, awesome
pistol. And then there's goingto be new drones coming in, that
will be very interesting. Also,I've seen it a few times. The
(21:22):
troops have already trained withit. Awesome assets. Also, we'll
have air defense coming in a bitlater, and we'll have counter
UAS also will come into theatre.So new equipment, new
communication equipment that'sgonna help us with manoeuvering
the brigade headquarters asdispersed as we can while being
(21:44):
able to share the information.
So new technology broughtforward, new equipment, and
there's other pieces that willcome in. But one thing that's
going to be interesting also forthe troops, it's the fact that
the equipment will not sit inCanada. The equipment, as soon
as we get it and it's ready, itwill be pushed forward. And so
(22:05):
there's pieces that the troopswill only have access to when
they are in Latvia.
Capt Orton (22:11):
I just wanna highlight the dispersed
headquarters idea becausethere's been a lot of
philosophical conversationaround the headquarters recently
about the idea of either, like,you know, a centralized
headquarters or a dispersedheadquarters. What is the value
of a dispersed headquarters?
Col Aspirault (22:27):
I like to go back to doctrine, often.
Capt Orton (22:29):
That's right.
Col Aspirault (22:29):
Yeah. There's many things written in doctrine
that we forget about, and whenwe go back to our books to say,
"Oh yeah, it does exist."
So one of the functions that wehave to do is protection. How do
I protect my headquarters? Andthere's many ways to protect the
headquarters. We can create abubble. As we've seen in
Afghanistan, the way that wewere the headquarters, it's
(22:50):
being underneath a bubble,a radar bubble with other assets
that was protecting theheadquarters.
So in this case, beingcentralized, tight, and big, was
the way to do it. That was theway to protect the headquarters.
In Latvia, it's different. Andas we learned in Ukraine, it's
(23:11):
better to be dispersed. Sothat's the way that we protect
the the headquarters.
And it's not just protectingcommand, but it's to make sure
that we create a resilientheadquarters. So if something
happens to one of the parts, therest of it can function. So
dispersed headquarters is justanother way to protect the
headquarters with the tools thatI have at this time. There's
(23:33):
many articles being written atthis time on dispersed
headquarters around the world.And it's not just to be able to
sustain a strike, but it's alsohow we camouflage ourselves.
Like, how do we hide in thattransparent battlefield where
everybody knows where everybodyis from satellite views or to be
(23:58):
able to use electronic warfareto see how communications are
being transmitted throughout thebattlefield. So how do I hide my
brigaded headquarters withtransmissions and also hiding
the view, the satellite view,and also how do I make sure that
I'm resilient. So dispersedheadquarters, it's one of the
(24:21):
answers, but it's not all of it.We need to think about
protection as a whole. And as abrigade commander, I need to
take everything in considerationto make sure that I am able to
be a resilient headquarters andbe able to command and control
throughout the operation.
Capt Orton (24:39):
You know, it's "One Army", and for those that know
how the Reserves fit into thewhole picture, it's not a
separate group of peopleexplicitly. But have you given
any thought to how the Reservesfit into this plan?
Col Aspirault (24:51):
Well, reservists are essential in this plan. We
saw the success of integratingreservists at the right time in
Afghanistan.
Capt Orton (24:59):
Yeah.
Col Aspirault (24:59):
We were able to sustain Afghanistan because of
the help of the reservists. It'ssustaining operations forward.
So that's one thing. Secondthing, it's to also find or
expose people, reservists, towhat the Reg Force is and
provide them an opportunity tojoin the team. And you know
(25:19):
what? After a tour, the level ofexpertise is the same. We don't
see any difference between acorporal coming from 1st Van Doo
and a corporal coming from 6thVan Doo - that is a Reserve
unit. And we want to maintainand keep that quality soldier
within the Reg Force . So ifthere's opportunities and
exposure to reservists, we willmake that happen.
(25:42):
We have great success at the 2ndDivision. We changed the way to
do things. We used to just havea block of positions designed
for reservists and say, okay,they will do force protection.
Capt Orton (25:56):
Yeah. That's right. The classic.
Col Aspirault (25:58):
Yeah. But it's not the best task for anybody,
actually. So what we've done, isfirst we asked all the
reservists within the 2ndDivision who is available to
deploy and when. And that's animportant question because
reservists have a life. Theyhave a different life. They go
to school, they have a real job,and they are doing something
(26:19):
different. So we got a surveyout. We got many answers, and we
developed the plan based onavailability of the troops. We
said, "Okay, this person isavailable in January 2024.
Actually, I have time to trainthem and make them a LAV
driver." I have some peopleavailable later. Okay. There's
(26:40):
other tasks, other positionsthat require less specific
training or qualifications. Sowe task tailor, I will not say
reservist positions, likebrigade positions and make sure
that it's transparent foreverybody.
I have reservists everywhere,it's not just force protection,
(27:00):
and they are throughout thebattle groups, throughout the
brigade quarters, throughoutRecce squadron, artillery,
logistics. So I was able to takereservists from every unit
within the division. And youknow what? They will feel like
part of the full team.
It's not just a group ofreservists together. They are
part of the Reg Force and theyare throughout the brigade. And
(27:23):
so far, we are over 20% and I'mlooking forward to see how many
people that will stay part ofthat team because I need new
people within the brigade and Ineed great people. And
hopefully, there's reserviststhat will want to join the
brigade after the tour.
Capt Orton (27:39):
I'll confirm, by the way, because I looked at
the task brick, just out ofcuriosity to see what they were
at, and it's about 1600positions right now with about
400 reservists filling thosepositions. So it's a real thing.
Like, the number there isnotable. That's what I'll say.
Col Aspirault (27:55):
And, again, we have to do it now. Like, it's
not let's wait that we needpeople.
Capt Orton (28:00):
That's right.
Col Aspirault (28:00):
We have to do it now and we have to do it
properly also. Because if that21% that we have did not enjoy
their experience, did not learnor were treated as only
reservists for the tour, theywill not come back and that's
not sustainable. It's a "OneArmy" thing. We need to do it
together, and we need toappreciate the help of people
(28:22):
that will actually take time offtheir work. They will put their
school aside for a year to bepart of that great thing.
Capt Orton (28:32):
So, obviously, because it's a brigade, we're
not rotating out a whole brigadein one shot, and it's probably
different chunks at differenttimes. But roughly, how long are
people gonna be spending on theground?
Col Aspirault (28:43):
Roughly, people will spend 6 months on the
ground. It's going to be anormal tour, what we've seen
before. And there's a few keypositions that will be there for
1 year. For example, myself, mySergeant Major, and my Chief of
Staff will be there for oneyear. However, the bulk of the
troops will be there for sixmonths. The first battle group
will be there from June toDecember from 2 Van Doo from
(29:07):
Valcartier and then will bereplaced by assets from 1
Brigade. Then in June of 2025,the entire brigade will be
replaced by personal from 2Brigade from Petawawa.
Capt Orton (29:21):
So it's just kinda like a stew. You got some stuff,
it's going in. You got someother stuff, you're taking it
out. It's kinda rolling. Alittle bit of everything
happening at the same time.
Col Aspirault (29:28):
Exactly.
Capt Orton (29:30):
Throughout this whole thing, we've been talking
a lot about technical stuff andkind of how all the pieces come
together. I would assume at yourlevel, you know, there's a lot
of moving parts and all of that,and different people lead in
different ways. How would youdescribe your command philosophy
when you're approaching theseproblems?
Col Aspirault (29:49):
That's a great question. When I went in 5
Brigade, I had that same thoughtor same reflection as any new
commander coming into theatre.However, commanding 5 Brigade is
one thing, but commanding amultinational brigade, it's
another thing. However, there isa concept that are important to
(30:11):
me that I'm keeping and I'mbringing forward with me, if I
can say that. It's making surethat the troops that are working
with us are experts oneverything that they are doing.
Making sure that my tankers arethe experts in tanks, that the
infantry are the experts ininfantry.
(30:31):
And sometimes we believe it'sobvious, but it's not because we
don't give them time to do that.And I wanna make sure that I
give them time to do that, to bethe expert into their own trade.
Once we do that, we make surethat they fit with each other
and they are able to fighttogether. So to bring the
expertise and trusting eachother in order to conduct the
(30:54):
exercises or to fight together,and they understand what they
are doing. So for me, it'sextremely important to see a
brigade is not 4000 individuals.
It's not ten companies. It's noteight units. It's one brigade.
One brigade together isextremely strong and everybody
enables each other and everybodyas part of that brigade makes
(31:18):
the brigade itself extremelystrong. So we start at every
level. We want to make sure thatwe give them time to be an
expert in what they do, and thenwe build together, in order to
be able to fight a brigade,exercise a brigade.
Capt Orton (31:32):
And we can see, like, when we apply that
approach, again Afghanistan is agreat example, is people come
back with that level ofexpertise, and it has a follow
on, or a lingering effect thatpeople transmit that expertise
and learn those lessons and passthem on. And then it has, like,
a ongoing impact on a lot of thetrades as a whole on how to do
(31:52):
things better.
Col Aspirault (31:52):
Yeah. And people are learning from that. Like, if
you spend your entire life aspart of the armoured regiment,
you will not understand how muchbetter you can be if you're
working without infantry andvice versa. You will not
understand what's the artilleryfirepower until it's actually
being used in front of you.
Capt Orton (32:12):
That's right.
Col Aspirault (32:13):
So working together in theatre, creates
links and understanding that'shard to understand, but we need
to do it and experience ittogether. And every expertise
merged together makes somethingincredibly strong and nice to
see.
Capt Orton (32:28):
I recently had a discussion with somebody and
we're talking about leadershipwithin an organization. There's
the human side where it's likehow you connect with people and,
you know, you be yourself, youknow, like Adam Orton "human
being" versus Captain AdamOrton. And also connecting with
the people that you work withwhere sometimes regardless of
(32:49):
how human you want to be, you'rea representative of
your organizationand as a higher leader more so.
And sometimes you have toconnect with humans as a human.
With a big deployment like thisand all of this stuff, there's a
lot of leadership weight on yourshoulders, obviously. How do you
manage the human side of being anormal person and connecting
with your troops while they'reon deployment?
Col Aspirault (33:11):
You need to be yourself. Like, you are not a
commander because you've beensomebody different throughout
your years. You've been chosenfor what you've done before and
not for what exactly what youare now or what you could be. So
there are things that you needto be yourself. One thing that's
important for me is to trust myteam, is to enable them to do
(33:32):
their job.
Because if I do not trust them,I will want to do what they are
doing or check everything thatthey are doing. And if I do
that, I will not be able tocommand properly and take time
to reflect on what needs tohappen later. So trust for me
when we talk about missioncommand, it's one thing, but
sometimes we need to reflect onwhat mission command is, but
(33:53):
it's all based on trust. Andtrusting your troops, trusting
your commanders, trusting yourkey staff is essential to make a
brigade work. Because as acommander, you don't have time
to do everybody's job. You needto do your own job and let
everybody else do their own jobwithin their own expertise. And
make sure that they are able todo it and give them the tools to
(34:16):
be better at what they do. Butin order to be better at what
they do, you have to give themthe space to do it. But it's all
based on trust.
I really like that. That's areally good answer because I
feel like mission command inparticular, which is the act of
basically delegating andtrusting your subordinates that
they just do the job that youtold them to do, is a really
(34:37):
powerful tool that a lot ofpeople don't understand and is
really useful.
And sometimes technology isgonna go against that because as
a commander, I can see whatsection number 1 can do. And
it's easy for a commander towanna move section number 1. But
it's not my job to do it. And Ineed to to realize that and make
sure that I give the space toany commanders that are part of
(35:00):
that to do that and let them go.
Capt Orton (35:02):
Well, thanks so much for being on the podcast, sir. I
really appreciate it.
Col Aspirault (35:05):
Thank you for giving me the time. It was a
great opportunity.
Capt Orton (35:08):
Alright. Well, that was Colonel Cédric Aspirault,
who is the brigade commander at5 CMBG and the future commander
on the ground of the ForwardLand Forces Brigade in Latvia.
And I'm Captain Adam Orton forthe Canadian Army Podcast. Orton
out.
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