Evan Farmer

Episode Transcript
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Rikki Harris (00:05):
CAN+DID is a podcast of TN Voices about
mental health, featuring storiesof people who have overcome
mental health challenges, aswell as those who have helped
people overcome mental healthchallenges. This podcast is
about authenticity. And it'sintended to give a voice to
those who are passionate aboutmental well being. We hope that

(00:27):
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just how important it is in ourday to day lives, and they will
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(00:51):
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Fabulous, we will dive in Welcome to Our Podcast.
Evan. We're very excited to haveyou. Just by way of quick intro.
I'm Ricky Harris, the CEO ofTennessee voices and my co host
will evolve CEO at Tennesseevoices. And we are super excited
about our guests today. BecauseEvan, you hosted you emceed our

(02:25):
very first green ribbon gala forTennessee voices very first,
about six years ago. And I don'tthink I've seen you since except
running into you like at arestaurant one time. I know.
It's gonna happen. I know, likeTime has flown by, it seems like
it was yesterday. As always, wekeep you know, getting older. It

(02:48):
is what it is. But by way ofintroduction of our guests,
Evan, let me just tell thelisteners.
And then people may recognizeyou from a lot of things. You've
done some really cool stuff inthe entertainment industry.
Well, we'll start with thethings I recall. And that is

(03:08):
while you were out.
That was the best. Oh my gosh.
And I want to hear so much aboutthat. But top 20 countdown CMT
TRL Hello, who didn't watch themTV? I mean, I'm in my 40s. So
let me just put that out there.
If you're in your 40s you knowright now what TRL stands for,

(03:30):
just leave it at that.
Philanthropy work. Goodnessgracious, you've got a list of
philanthropy work Susan G. KomenHabitat for Humanity. Autism
Speaks cystic fibrosis, UNICEF,what if I left out as the voices
You've helped us?

Evan Farmer (03:47):
needed and wanted?
That's what

you got a book out about breaking into the
entertainment industry calledbreaking in, which is kind of
funny. I love that. Because nowyou're doing anyway, we'll talk
about that later. You'remarried. I got to meet your
lovely wife at the gala. And youhave two boys. And right now
you're doing a project calledthe building barn. So we want to

(04:12):
hear about all of that. Where doyou want to start? This is a I
just barely scratched thesurface of all the stuff you've
got going on? Well, well, thankyou for scratching my ego while
you're at it. It's funny because

I probably needed it today. I'm actually I woke up
I'm serious seasonal affectivedisorder kind of guy. And, and I
didn't even realize I needed alittle ego boost at the at the
time that you said it. ButI think I think the key are
where to start with with me. Andwhat's important to me is I've
been a full time dadpretty much since 2013. So I've

(04:51):
been out of the entertainmentmore or less since since I left
CMT. And that has been I'munequivocally the best thing
that's ever happened to me. Andit's been a great opportunity.
And it's given me a lot of spaceto help guide my kids through
the last couple years inparticular, and some some prior

(05:15):
challenges. So,you know, my world is actually
very small compared to yourdescription of my history.
And, and I really, I reallyliked that it's given me a lot
of a lot of other opportunitiesto explore when, when you're
busy running around like achicken with your head cut off,

(05:35):
like my prior resume required itto be,
it can be a big distraction. AndI think I needed that at the
time, certainly, you know,relating to mental health, I
think I was not ready to kindof, you know, address many
things emotionally during thatperiod of time. And I was very

(05:56):
fortunate to have a really,really fun series of
distractions. And the shows weredefinitely a fun way to do that.
And I got to meet incrediblepeople along my journey and
including yourselves and,and that's where philanthropy
really came in. Becausesomewhere early on in my
television career,I became an amplicon. Early on,

(06:19):
I became really disenchantedwith it. The first project that
I did that kind of brought meany sort of public attention was
called together with a two itwas a we were the Spinal Tap of
boy bands. And I won't say I wasbecoming agoraphobic. But what I
experienced made me very,I don't know, public challenged,

(06:43):
I didn't like that kind ofattention. I resented
the attention that came just asa result of that, because it
wasn't authentic to me. And so Ifound myself not participating
in outside of, you know, myapartment or work. And it was a
very unsettling experience forme because naturally, I'm an

(07:05):
explorer, I like to be out andexploring things and I became
scared to leave my house. At thetime, my mom and this kind of
goes back to the Susan G. Komen.
But at the time, my mom wastreasurer of Baltimore, Susan G.
Komen, which she was part of theshe was one of the founding
members of the Baltimore branch.
She had survived breast canceragainst many odds, she was given
three months to live, and shebeat it after five years.

(07:28):
And she suggested to me at thattime, to use what I was
resenting my attention, forgood. And so she invited me to
sing the national anthem, thatyear at the Susan G. Komen
Baltimore, March or walk,I had been doing that from the
beginning as a complete, youknow, nobody, but there was

(07:49):
only, you know, two or 300people there at the start. And
then all of a sudden withtogether, it was, it was an
advantage to the cause. So therewas, you know, I was able to
help pull in people to thecause, just by my being there,
never been more terrified tosing the national anthem in my
life than that first, firsttime.

(08:10):
But philanthropy then became myoutlet to reengage in the world.
And that's really where, where Icame to, I'd love to say that it
was entirely selfless, and thatI saw this need, and I poured my
heart into it. Of course, thatis a part of why we all do it.
And I think that's part of who Iwas, when I was born. However,

(08:32):
it really that was the connectorfor me. And it made sense. And I
was able to turn some turn anegative into a positive, and
I've been doing it ever since.
And I enjoy mostly just workingwith people who are passionate
and you will never find morepassionate people than who are
doing philanthropy. And that'skind of my story in a nutshell.
So that brought me back to sortof where I am now as a father,

(08:54):
my son, my oldest son is 13, myyoungest son is nine. And, and
I'm two boys, obviously, I thinkI just said sons. And, and I
really have found my purpose inlife very clearly to be

Unknown (09:11):
being a part of their lives. In a day to day organic
experience during when COVIDhappened.

The opportunity for them to come home and be at
school was actually a giftbecause it was probably
something we should have donewith my my particular boys at
the stage they were in with whatthey were dealing with in
school. And I just didn't, Ididn't have that wherewithal to
say, Alright, I need to do and Iwas scared. COVID took all that

(09:41):
off the table for me and broughthim home. And I've watched my
boys heal. In particular myolder son who dealt with some
very ugly scenarios in in schoolwith
I wouldn't say severe bullying,I would say extreme violence. I
went to school in Baltimore.
During the crack epidemic and apublic school that was on the

(10:02):
Baltimore City line, I never sawwhat my son had to endure. And,
and so being home, watching himheal has been the greatest gift.
And seeing him blossom over thelast two years, and it's really
changed the way I approachfamily raising children just

(10:23):
life in general. And my wife andI both opened up our worlds
immensely, because of as aresult of the COVID experience,
to not limit ourselves in anychoices that we make, and you
know, the ruts as a parent.
You get into that, oh, well,we've got you know, school
friends and soccer friends andthe our friends become the

(10:45):
Friends of the kids and theparents of them and, and all of
a sudden, by default, your lifeis being lived for you. And you
wake up every morning, justgetting on that train. And
taking that control back hasbeen one of the biggest mental
health positives in my, in mylife, bar none. And so for the
last two years, it's reallyallowed me to address the

(11:07):
healing that I needed to do. Youwanted to be candid, there you
go.

Will Voss (11:13):
I have I will. I'm like I want to know more. So
much. I haven't said much. I'mlike wondering about all kinds
of things and remembering somethings that you

you had shared with me, just some of your own
self care practices. Way backwhen we talked last that you did
just, I mean, I remember thecold shower story. I was like,
Okay, I'm gonna try it. And it'sreally hard. It's not pleasant
at all. And I remember thinking,Oh, he does this, like, as a

(11:48):
practice regularly. Why? But Ido know why. And and, and so I'm
just wondering, like, what otherthings have you have you put
into practice, as you've learnedthrough COVID? I can so relate
to stuff around having the kidsat home, what you're saying, but
what are the self care things?
You've mentioned? SeasonalAffective Disorder, like how do

(12:08):
you deal?

Great question, and the shower thing is still the
hardest thing I do. I will tellyou that I've brought my kids
into it. And my oldest is verymuch like me, and that he's an
extremist, he just goes through,he just embraces the extreme
might, my youngest I admire, Iwish I could be more like him.
He's the Buddha. It's kind ofthe way I describe. He's one of

(12:32):
the honeybadger. I mean, he'svery, very centered naturally,
he knows who he is. He's not,it's not desperately searching
the way I feel like I had mywhole life. But my oldest son
and I go jump into freezing coldpools in in February. Still, we
did it not too long ago.
And it's by far the hardest selfcare thing I've ever done. But

(12:53):
that's why I do it is I enjoythe challenge. But actually, you
know, I'm glad you asked aboutthe self care because I would
say over the last year and ahalf, I have taken that to a
level out of necessity, that Ididn't realize I'd start I'd
always been involved indifferent forms of self care.
But my discipline with it haswaxed and waned. And I've kind

(13:17):
of tried different things. Mybiggest Prozac as I like to call
it is going to the gym and Iwould wake up very happily at
five o'clock in the morning andgo to the gym, and I would, I
would do a leisure gym, I wouldspend two hours there not
heavily doing anything the wholetime, but it was my my space.
And when that disappeared forme, you know, I hit COVID Like a

(13:42):
jack rabbit. And I was trying todo one of those videos like the
super RX online or whatever. AndI was jumping around the living
room and, you know, my wifewould come down and I was just
it just looked like I was in apanic because I need to replace
it. And I was I started off withthe replacement. And, and I
realized that that wasunsustainable. And I realized

(14:03):
that I wasn't going to be ableto control it. It took a while
to settle into the reality ofwhat was going on.
And I really had to make somehard changes. I think the
hardest thing for me with mentalhealth is the fact that it
requires the last thing that youwant to do, which is taking

(14:23):
action and making change whenyou're really in that dark
space. And I'm no stranger tothat. The last thing you want to
do is get out of bed. The lastthing you want to do is, you
know, go for a walk around theneighborhood.
I grew up in a family that hasstruggled with a lot of
depression and my mother had alot of mental health issues. And

(14:44):
coincidentally, I think we'dspoken about this at one point.
She she was a therapist, and soon one hand, we had a lot of
great therapy on the other hand,we had a lot of, you know
dysfunction in our family.
I did that she was a part of.
And so it was a very weird mix.
It was like I was being messedup, and then given the tools to

(15:05):
fix it immediately, you know,almost simultaneously sometimes.

(15:28):
I have never really consideredmyself a heavy drinker. But I
made the decision. One night, Irealized I made the correlation
between one glass of wine andextreme anxiety. And I'm like, I
can't, I can't be the leader ofmy family and experience that.
And, and so I just cut it out,it wasn't a difficult decision,

(15:49):
I was just like, Okay, no moreof that. And I know, a lot of a
lot of people kind of gatheredaround the zoom, and they would
have their, you know, in thatcommunity, and they kind of
replace their social lives, youknow, and that and alcohol is a
big part of our culture, I justrealized that couldn't be part
of mine anymore.
That waking up very early in themorning, I came back to that.

(16:12):
And it's replaced my earlymorning workouts with breathing
exercises, breath work, I read agreat book called Breathe.
The author's name is

Unknown (16:24):
eluding me right now.
But anyway, and just the powerof

your parasympathetic nervous system
and your sympathetic nervoussystem. And in getting that
under control, is can be verytherapeutic for a lot of people.
For me, it has been so it soundscrazy and extreme, but I get up
every morning and I do breathwork for about an hour before
anybody else in the house wakesup and I put,

(16:51):
I'm gonna sound very gooey onthis. But I put affirmations on
YouTube on TV,sometimes over an ocean or you
know, some beautiful vista, butit'll just slowly you know, put
up words of affirmation, orcomfort, sometimes it's just a
crackling fire, just to give methat soothing comfort, and I do
breath work, and I meditate andI read. And I try to get as much

(17:11):
of that in because if I don'tset myself up in the morning,
then I struggle all day. Andsometimes, you know, even even
today, today was very difficult.
I got up very early, did mybreath work, my sons come down,
and they start reading with me,which is really wonderful.
And, and yet still, after it wasover, I just felt really anxious

(17:35):
and restless. And for me, it's,it's clearly the weather that
affects me.
Those are the two main thingsthat I do I still exercise, I'm
not rabid about it, you know,like I used to, for me,
I will just take a 20 minutewalk around the neighborhood,
and actually have a list on mymirror of things that I need to

(17:56):
do when I'm really in a funk.
Because, again, the hardestthing, as we all have
experienced, when you're in thatdark place, regardless of how
dark it goes, is it's hard toknow what to do. And since I
don't have, you know, my momgoing, hey, you need to do this
now. And, and because sometimesyour spouse isn't always
connected in a way that she canbe like, Yeah, I think you need

(18:17):
to take a walk, you know, I needto be able to remind myself and
so on my mirror is this list ofbrief exercise, rest, eat and
meditate. And those is that listand I'll just go check, check
those boxes. And if one doesn'twork, I'll move on to the next.
And even if it's 10 minutes,you know, I need to do those

(18:38):
things. And I need to do them onthe regular otherwise, I just
don't function very well.

Wow.
I'm trying to write all thatdown. I need to be doing all
these things.

Will Voss (18:53):
There was a lot that I took away from it to Evan and
I will tell you what I trulyadmire about it. You know,
especially in the mental healthfield, we talk so much about
self care. And we've seen overthe years, how it's grown. And
it's not just the mental healthfield to talking about self care
to every field. What Ricky and Iboth talk to staff about is how
it's evolving, it's everchanging. You can set out a plan

(19:14):
and if it doesn't work, alright,let's try something else. Try
What does figure out what canwork to really help you get to
that point where you want to beit. So I think it's phenomenal
how you put out all of the kindof drawing as far as what things
can look like, what didn't workfor you what may work for
someone else. You know, I telleveryone who comes on and you

(19:35):
just help somebody. So I willtell you, you just help somebody
and I think Rick is shaking herhead similar to me. You just
helped us to we've got a lot ofthings to add to our self care
plan. It's evolving, you'reright. It's Yes, sometimes none
of them work. And that's that'sthe reality. Sometimes I you
know, I will just sit there inbed and, you know, I've got to

(19:58):
learn to say you know what, this

Unknown (19:59):
Days Gone? Ain't nothing I'm going to do. I've
tried it all this days gone, andthere's nothing I can do about
it. My taxes can wait.
Everything else that I'mstressed out can wait. I'm doing
that right now I'm surroundedby, you know, nine months and
finances. I've been avoidingthat. Yeah, yeah, you just got
to put when it's hard to putthat foot forward. That's the

(20:20):
part that, you know, I've seenwith my family and friends, and
as we've all kind of sharednotes is, you know, sometimes
the hardest thing is just doingthat one thing, because the
weight can be so enormous. And,you know, getting that toe out
there, you know, it'll probablyhelp. But it's just taking that

(20:41):
first initiative. And it's soeasy, and it gets a lot of
platitudes. Well, you got totake action, you got to do this,
and you got to do that. And itsounds like I do a lot.
Sometimes I don't. But I knowwhat I need to do. And, and
sometimes it'll, it'll, it'llrapidly change, you know, my gym
went to someplace else. And, youknow, I don't look the same that

(21:02):
I used to when I worked out fortwo hours a day. But I'm okay
with that, you know?

Yeah, it's, and it's so interesting how that
layer, on top of all that youtry to do for yourself that
layer of being a parent. Andknowing how whatever you choose
to do will impact your child insome way, adds a layer of guilt
that we also have to try toprotect ourselves from that

(21:30):
piece, I can kind of relate somuch to all the things that
you're sharing. But then also,if I didn't do my self care, and
I did have a bad day, now I haveguilt of who I didn't give my
kids my best today, theyactually saw something I
probably wish they wouldn't haveseen out of me. And then you got
to carry that around so thatself care does so many things
for us. And as my husband'salways reminding me, you're

(21:53):
human, and you need rest. Sodon't forget those two things.
You will you will make mistakes,you will say things you didn't
mean to say you you. You'rehuman. It's okay. And that
part's hard, too.

Unknown (22:09):
Yeah, you know, I'm a big fan of Brene Brown. And the
shame that you talk about, I'mlooking back has been perhaps
the biggest challenge of mylife, I was raised in a family
of extreme shame, male shame, Iwas the only boy. And there was
a very well intentioned, but Ithink misguided version of

(22:32):
feminism that kind of took rootsin my immediate family, and it
was very anti male. And the wayI absorbed that was just shame.
I was ashamed of everything. Youknow, my shame of existing was
funny, I was looking back overpreparing for a documentary

(22:53):
about the pop era that I've beenasked to partake in. And I was
looking back over some of thethings that were going on at the
time. And I had this big trunkfilled with interviews and
magazines and things thattogether was a part of, and I
remember and then I looked up myown Wikipedia and there was
something or maybe it was IMDB.
And there was something on thatthat said he would never wear
red Evan would never wear red.

(23:16):
And it triggered somethingyou're laughing I'm need to
know.

Will Voss (23:21):
And I saw it and that was one of my questions for you
today. I was gonna ask what isup with worry, it will talk to
us about this. This is lovely.

Unknown (23:31):
For the first time in my life, I will share you share
with you the true origin ofthat. Because I did a lot of
work on on. I remember proudlysaying that in that interview,
but not even reallyunderstanding why. And here is
what I've come to is myrealization in school, I or in

(23:53):
my my life as a child. Startingin elementary school all the way
up, I wanted to disappear. Iwanted to blend into the walls,
I would not wear Nikes that ifthe Shuar shoe or whatever you
call the thing that's on theshoe, that thing if it was a
different color than my Nikesbecause it might attract
somebody, I didn't want anybodyto see me. I wanted to

(24:15):
disappear. And that was all bornaround shame. I was ashamed. I
was ashamed to be a guy. I wasashamed to feel what it felt
like to be a boy. I was ashamedto exist. A lot of those things
were passively taught to me, notagain well intentioned, for I
understand it as an adultlooking back. I literally want

(24:38):
it to disappear. It was not Idid not feel safe in this world.
Wearing the color red was aboutas dangerous as I could possibly
imagine. My outfit can beconsistent and my mom used to
make fun of me and she was likeshe would say you know I was
just a boy thing I would wearone pair of jeans and one plain

(24:59):
white t shirt. And whitesneakers because I did not want
to be noticed. And that took meall the way up to about midway
in high school, where I wasintroduced to theatre and music
and things that I found a group,a tribe, so to speak, they
became very much my secondfamily. They became my primary

(25:19):
family. You know, we're alsolatchkey generation, I wasn't
very actively parented from veryearly age.
I was my younger sister'sprimary caretaker, she's four
years younger than me. Andsomewhere in high school, I
found my tribe and they werevery good about making me feel

(25:43):
not so weird. Now, you can'tundo all that in a very short
period of time, even when youfind your people I'll never
forget go into college in adifferent state. The only reason
I chose a college where I wentinto Lane was it was the
furthest college that acceptedme and New Orleans. So I went to
New Orleans, and I never cameback, I needed to find my new
place. But I remember joining afraternity accidentally, which

(26:04):
is a whole other story that wedon't need to get into. But I
remember very reluctantly goingto a lunch at this fraternity,
my purpose was to tell them Hey,guys, big mistake, don't want to
be involved in all this. Thehazing had started. And this was
a group of guys who didn't growup with male shame. And so that
made me feel very uncomfortable.
And they talked about thingsthat nobody would talk about in

(26:24):
my world. And I didn't want tobe a part of that. And somebody
at that lunch broke meemotionally, literally, I kind
of saw red. And all of a sudden,that day, there was before that
moment, and then there was afterthat moment, after that moment,
became the guy that could dotelevision could wear red,

(26:45):
essentially, Old habits diehard, I didn't start doing that
until it was actually felt likeI've arrived and nobody's going
to judge me negatively for justexisting anymore. At least I
have that superficial, you know,feedback, which again, to
complicate things that went onto resent later on, because I'm
like, Well, you don't like me,you just like the guy that is on

(27:05):
that show where the you know,very complicated, but, but
really, I mean, honestly, notwearing red came to and I hear a
lot of this too. You know, Ilisten to a lot of podcasts and
interviews with people in themental health world, the self
improvement world and whatnot,there is a very huge commonality
of wanting to disappear andblend in I also have an

(27:29):
extraordinary pain tolerance.
That is also another commonalityof people who share the blending
in and disappearing is when youkind of grow up in a certain
certain environments, it'sbecomes a survival skill, it
becomes a test of your alive. Sothat actually enabled me to do a

(27:50):
lot of things in my life.
Because what caused people torational people healthy people
to go is a little too much. I'mpushing the boundaries here. I
didn't and you know, without anytalent, really extraordinary
talent at all, in any of thefields that have worked in in
entertainment, which I talkedabout in my book, The premise of
my book is, look, I'm not a guythat's that's going to win

(28:11):
American Idol. But I sold amillion albums, you know, and
without any talent in any ofthose fields. I went on to
succeed because we're mostpeople stopped I wouldn't. And
that's because I was willing tokind of, it's because of that
lack of pain, tolerance,emotional and physical. I would
push myself that was a wholelot. I just realized I just I'm
patting on you guys. Like

I'm like, Okay, first of all, can you come to
work for us? And then second?
Like, I have you watched thedocumentary. I think it's on
either Disney or the DiscoveryChannel. I can't remember about
the divers who saved the the theboys in Thailand that got stuck
in the cave.

Unknown (28:53):
I haven't because I'm so claustrophobic that I might
die just watching it. But I feellike I must be the second
person.

Okay, so but it's what you're describing the
extremism and the I want todisappear. These guys there's
like four or five main diversthat got called in from all
around the entire world. Becausethey were known to be like the
the people that if anyone couldhandle this they could. And so
they interview in depth. And allof them. I think there's four or

(29:23):
five. They all say almost thesame thing you did like I did
like myself in school. I wantedto disappear. I didn't. I didn't
believe in myself. And literallysaid going underwater in the
dark and being out of everyone'ssight was my most favorite
place. It was it just becamelike this little haven for them.

(29:48):
And then they become like theseextreme, unbelievably talented
divers and they never really setout for that it was just that's
where they felt safe.

Unknown (29:57):
I can relate it to every man So my version of
diving is, is flying, so notjust flying airplanes, but
paragliders the minute my feetleave that ground, I feel like
it's, again, my claustrophobiaprobably has something to do
with, with that I don't feelsafe in enclosed or surrounded

(30:19):
by, by people, objects, orwhatever. So being up in the air
is, is metaphorical. But it'salso some something transfer
transform to me, I'll neverforget my first flying lesson
when I finally gave myself thatgift I was doing while you're
out, and I was like, You knowwhat, I'm going to spend money
on myself for once. And so Istarted taking flying lessons

(30:39):
the first time, I pulled thestick back and left the ground.
Again, it was another one ofthose transformational
experiences like the guy thatbroke me at lunch and college.
Which is interesting, because hewas the biggest bully in the
fraternity and he's gone on todo amazing things. I mean, he's
almost world famous in the worldin a different, totally

(30:59):
different sphere. And he was anightmare. But thank God for
him, right? I mean, thanks.
Sometimes it's those people. Andanyway, I go off on tangents a
little bit, but for pulling backthat stick and leaving the
ground and saying, Okay, now,what happens right now, and for
the next 10 minutes until theplainest part, it's entirely up

(31:19):
to me. Nobody else is going toinfluence nobody's going to
shame me, nobody's going tojudge me nobody's the only
judgment is between my myselfand my ability to get myself
down. And, and for me, that wasa practice that I relied on
heavily for a long period oftime. And I think a lot of

(31:40):
people are drawn to extremesports, born out of trauma. And
certainly, you know, the flyingI did wasn't too extreme until
I, until I built my ownairplane, and then flew it
across the country solo, whichwas even looking back on that I
don't understand what I wasthinking. But I do know that it
was a form of desperation. Somany of the choices that I've

(32:07):
made in my life have been outof, I need to do this to heal.
And, again, I've never reallytalked about any of this
publicly, certainly not in aninterview, because I don't think
I was ready to understand it.
And a lot of a lot of ways untilI found Brene Brown, who I think

(32:28):
has really opened a Pandora'sbox for so many people to say,
oh, that's what it is. That'swhat was going on. And, and it
took, it took a lot of angeraway from me when I understood
it, because, you know, I don'tblame anybody for living their
experience. You know, and itdoesn't, it doesn't apologize

(32:50):
for anybody's actions either.
But what it does is it once youmake sense of it, then you can
move forward. And I was stuckfor a long time. And you know, I
can move forward by by flying, Ican move forward by you know,
jumping out of airplanes, I didplenty of skydiving,
paragliding, all great metaphorsfor it. But I, I would like to
raise my children in this kindof bring it back full circle.

(33:12):
But my goal is to raise my boysin a way where they don't need
that to feel okay. And if I cando that, and that is my life's
mission from here on in, then,you know, and I'd love to say
that, that I chose thatwillingly. And that, you know,
it came to this place, you know,I'm a restless guy I need to

(33:33):
create, I created a business thebuilding barn, which is on
hiatus now because of COVID. Butand I actually had to just stop
and say, Is it okay for this tobe enough? And, and then, and
then sit in my own restlessnessand feeling of, you know, of
kind of disappearing on youdon't get tangible results.

(33:53):
Every day being apparent. It'sthe least immediate
gratification gratification. Ithink Job anybody can do. You're
playing the long game everysingle day. And nobody's going
to come and pat you on the head.
And certainly you can't takecredit for you know, great
things that they do, becausethat's not what that's about
either. So it's it's the mostabstract thing and for a guy

(34:17):
that has lived his life, lookingfor and getting getting out of
feedback as sort of like, youknow, my next notch I will get
feedback, resent it, move on,get feedback, resent. And, you
know, it was hard for me to getoff that train, and I don't even

(34:39):
know him entirely off of it yet.
I still think I'm looking for itevery day. I'm reading and
search all the books I read.
It's funny. I'm reading thisgreat book called The Lion
trackers Guide to Life. It'sphenomenal. This it's basically
it's it's what we're talkingabout. Through a guy that grew
up in the you know in SouthAfrica reserve and his family.

(35:01):
It's an amazing story in and ofitself, but, but it's really
about when you're, when you'rejust going forward, I think the
quote is, I don't know where I'mgoing, but I know how to get
there. And that is one from oneof the trackers in Africa. And I
feel like that's where I amright now. I don't know where

(35:22):
I'm going. But I do know, withconfidence, probably for the
first time in my life, how toget there. And it's slow, and
it's boring compared to the wayI've lived. And it's fun, I'm at
peace. Where than I've everbeen.

Yeah. Wow, it the amount of insight that you have.
I mean, it's time for anotherbook, Think of time what was the
last was a while ago, you gotthis

Unknown (35:51):
shame about writing that book. You know, it's funny,
because, you know, the book ispremised on, like, you know,
when you write a book that isdesigned in the self help genre,
you have to assume a position ofsome sort of authority, or some
sort of mastery, which I'm notcomfortable with. And so in
order for somebody to read it,you have to basically brag on

(36:11):
yourself for a second, you know,to say, This is why you should
read the book, because I've donethis and this and this, and if
you learn from me, maybe youcan, too. And that is still I
fought with my editor on that.
I'm like, can we just and infact, I had to actually steal
something from Anthony Robbins,after literally I, we, we came
to this coming to Jesus momentwhere I listed the bullet

(36:31):
bullets and things that I'veaccomplished, that made me feel
extremely, and I just boltedthem, because I didn't want to
belabor this whole thing. And Iput, I put under there, I'm not
telling you this, or I'm notsaying this to impress you, but
to impress upon you. And to and,and I really don't feel

(36:53):
comfortable with all that. Oddlyenough, but that book is it's
like I've read it probably 10times since I wrote it. And
every time I read it to to seeoh my god, do I sound
pretentious? Do I sound youknow, like, do I come across?
And that's that's the way I wasraised. It's all that shame sort
of coming to build? And like,Why Why couldn't I just be proud

(37:14):
of some of those things? And whycouldn't I, you know, accept the
fact that I wrote a, you know,pretty decent book that kind of,
you know, is a guidepost tocertain things. Now, I will say,
The God the book is really waswritten with an eye towards. And
it's about entertainment, itneeded to be because that's the,
that's the world that I wasspeaking from, and we needed an

(37:36):
audience to sell to. But really,I wrote that book for my kids,
it's this is the best of what Iknow. But in hindsight, it's the
best of what I know how toachieve. And I no longer value
achievement for achievementssake. In fact, it can be a
dangerous, dangerous distractionfor a lot of people, it can

(37:57):
cause mental health crises. Andso, like, I almost want to go
back and just write a forewordsaying, hey, what you're about
to read is for this and thisalone, but first, can you sit
and be with yourself and figureout what your life is really
about? What issues you need to,to work through things that you
need to address? You know, whatmakes you happy? Where do you

(38:19):
see yourself in 10 years thatdoesn't involve money or
accolades, you know, and that'sthe only the only addition I
would make to it right now. Wow.
And citing a couple of thepeople that I cited that have
since become abominations inour, in our industry, they
achieve great things, man, theme to movement wasn't so kind to

(38:41):
them, so you know.

Understand, and and by the way, side note Brene
Brown has a podcast, I think youshould be a guest on her
podcast. I'll let her know.

Unknown (38:53):
Okay, you do that?
Yeah, I'm not quite sure Iqualify for the pantheon of
greats that she has, but Ilistened to it religiously. And
you know, what's even more funis listening to podcasts that
she's being interviewed on. Ifound those are far more
revealing to me, but But yeah, Ilove it. Good stuff. Well, I
can't you

Will Voss (39:17):
know, no one else is gonna say us too. Okay, we were
right there with you. BreneBrown bands. Yeah.

Yeah, man, there's so many things and so I have to
say I love her but the gift ofimperfection. I don't know if
you've read it yet, but I can sorelate to something you were
talking about as you were sayingit I was like Wolf that's
hitting home really hard. Butthe the part about not not

(39:49):
feeling good about people sayingthings or you to you know,
accolades for yourself oranything like that. Just feeling
like that's not okay. And Iwill. I don't know that I'll
ever be over that. I feel likethat's always going to be a
problem for me. I know that whenI awesome things happen, right?

(40:09):
And I'll share it with myhusband. That's about the only
person that I'm willing to. Imean, I'll celebrate with will.
But outside of that there's nolike, there needs to be no
attention drawn. And so I'llshare it with my husband. And I
mean, that's like, okay, okay.
Okay. All right. You know thatthat was enough? Let's not, but
it's almost like in my head, I'msaying, I needed you to say

(40:30):
that. Thank you stop. Because ifyou keep going, then I have to
do better next time. And therehas to be more for the next
thing. And I'm not sure I'mready. Right, for that
expectation, because you're, I'mgoing to need you to keep saying
it. But if you keep saying it,I'm going to want you to stop
saying it. It is this weird,weird place to kind of try to
figure yourself out in Yeah,yeah, totally understand. And I

(40:54):
can dearly describe as full asyou can. But thanks for sharing
that.

Unknown (41:00):
Yeah. I mean, I relate 1,000%. And I think I've been
very, very lucky in my life tohave experienced both. In an
extreme form, I was in a preinterview for this documentary
that we're talking about.
Ironically, with all this goingon, I was part of a Russian band
in 1997. And it was one of thefirst big experiences of my

(41:25):
career, where I was bartendingin New York, and barely making
my rent every every month. Andthen one week later, I was in
Moscow. With their biggest therewas a batch, they were
essentially the Backstreet Boysof Russia. And they've sold more
albums and Garth Brooks, there'sa weird microcosm of music

(41:45):
outside of the United States,where you can be extraordinarily
successful, by certain metrics,but not have the other metrics
in place. It's very bizarre. Butthe experience that was so
critical for me was I went toRussia did the tour in 97, and
got to experience what extremething I became a Brad Pitt for
three months, you know, I got toexperience that. It was like, it

(42:11):
was almost like one of thosemovies where you know, potion,
you know, comes in persontransforms into their dream for
a minute, and then all of asudden, and then I came back and
I was bartending. So I have thisweird experience of going out
into public with for personalbodyguards to coming back to
complete anonymity. And it wassuch a gift, because I

(42:34):
immediately saw what fame was.
And in my book, I talk aboutfamous being a drug like crack
cocaine is literally it has novalue other than potentially
getting you more money on a on apractical level. But other than
that, it has no, it's a verydangerous drug, it'll make you
feel great for a while, but thenyou need more and more and more

(42:55):
and more. And so before anythinghappened in my career, I got to
experience this very bizarrething, where I went out and came
back and, and so it's alwaysbeen locked in that place. Like,
I knew what it meant, no matterwhat stage of my career I was in
and what level of, of, you know,notoriety or, you know, while
you're out, I became very, veryrecognizable, probably more so

(43:18):
than from together but just in amore casual way, it wasn't the,
you know, Beatles screaming,there's a whole kids people are
taught that people are famous indifferent ways subconsciously.
And so when I was in together,it was okay to come try to rip
my shirt off my, you know, backwhile I was walking through a
mall, that was perfectly fine.
Because that's the, you know,behavior that we're taught, you
know, screaming girls to dowith, you know, when Justin

(43:40):
Timberlake walks by, forexample, but when you're on a
home makeover show, again, I'mveering off, but it does have a
point that circles back to whatyou're saying. But when you're
in a home makeover show, you'rekind of that that guy that's in
your living room that you'rehaving a beer with, or your your
that that guy who's you know,doing the dishes along with you
or painting that wall, you know,and, and so you become sort of

(44:01):
everybody's casual friend. Andthat was a different sort of,
you know, experience. And Ididn't really mind that as much,
because people were, by far morerespectful of my privacy at that
point. But I had no privacy, youknow, and, and so for me, fading
back into complete obscuritywhen I left CMT. Incidentally, I

(44:22):
don't know if I've ever eventalked about this, but they
required me to dye my hair asyou can see, I'm completely
gray. But as soon as I left CMT,I shaved my head so that
everything that came in wasreal, real gray and it was all
me I grew a beard, and I slippedinto complete obscurity with

(44:42):
absolute bliss. I do not missnever willness sort of that
superficial recognition. But Ido very much need somebody say
good job. Huh. And that's atotally different beast. And
that's like you it's like, youknow, recognize that I worked

(45:05):
really hard on this andeverything, and then go away. I
don't want to set the bar toohigh.

It's so crazy.
Yeah, no,

Unknown (45:16):
it's too much pressure.
Yeah.

Will Voss (45:19):
I know, we've talked about a lot. And I know we're
getting shorter on time. But Ihad a question I do want to
touch base with you on goingback to something we talked
about earlier on. You mentioned,you're vulnerable with us, you
were candid, and you mentionedyour son, and what he had
experienced in school. And wedefinitely we hate to hear that.
But to hear the outcome, and nowthings are starting to get

(45:42):
better. That's a blessing andknow you all are grateful. So
that's a positive thing to hear.
Something I want to ask you,because we do have a lot of
parents and caregivers andsupported adults who are who are
listening. You know, goingthrough that we've talked a lot
about, you know, this is whatself care looks like, these are
things that you've experiencedand what you're continuing to
work on within yourself. And,and I recognize it in the same

(46:03):
boat, we realized that you know,and one day we're going to work
on it. It doesn't mean we stopthere. It's continuous, it's
ever evolving. What can we asadults do, from our end to make
sure that we're still makingkids understand that it's okay
to talk to us, and that theydon't have to hold in all of
what they're going through.

(46:24):
Because there's a lot thatthey're dealing with that we
don't see throughout the day,and especially in this day and
age of social media, what can wedo to make sure that we're we're
on the positive side of beingopen and let them know that,
hey, it's okay to talk to this.
Guy, no heavy, heavy, heavy, Iapologize.

Unknown (46:42):
I won't even pretend to know the be all end all, I will
tell you, through lots ofmissteps, and lots of regrets
and lots of trying over and lotsof forgiving myself and is just
the one word that comes to mindis safety. My kids don't get
punished. They they are not.
They will never be shamed. If Ican ever avoid it, and I've

(47:07):
caught myself. They, they needto know and if our children are,
feel safe coming to you for thelittle things, and if they know
that they're not going to beshamed or condemned or made to
feel small, in any scenario, andit's hard to it's hard to really

(47:28):
drill down and note it sometimesit's that tiny thing that will
lock them away. That if they'resafe, then they will come to
you. And that takes a lot thatis probably, you know, a lot of
Brene Brown, there's a lot ofbooks that go into how do you
get there. But for us, andwhat's worked with us is

(47:52):
providing safety and comfort andthere is no shame, there is no
wrong, everybody gets to feelrespected and heard there is no
punishment. I mean, that that'sprobably, you know, we currently
here and where we live, youknow, there's a culture of
spanking and shaming and thingswhere we hear that with other

(48:15):
parents and my kids see thathappening to their friends and,
and it, it becomes reallyuncomfortable when you slip to
the other way you've not slippedwhen you've gone to the other
side. And we're like, Wait aminute. And I will tell you, my
kids don't lie, they don't feelthe need to because it's, it's
really extraordinary, justnaturally, they don't need to

(48:38):
protect themselves. And there'sso many other things that, you
know, by no means are, am I aperfect parent, I'm not trying
to say that, but I do my wifeand I had both very consciously
created a very safe space forthem. And you realize that
you've done that when they cometo you with that really scary

(49:00):
thing that triggers you. Andthen you hold yourself back from
reacting. You really want to andmagically, they're waiting and
you can see it in their eyes.
They're waiting to go, Is thisgoing to be okay? Because if

(49:20):
they get the message that it'snot, they may never ever, ever
circle back around. I know Ididn't. And so it's hard to
remember that because theselittle things and you know, it's
funny because my oldest son isalmost six feet tall. He's 13
he's, you know, brag a brag onboth of them. They're both in

(49:42):
the gifted program. They're bothvery intelligent. They both have
very adult vocabularies. Theproblem with that is is it's
easy to forget that they'relittle boys and I find myself
messing that one up our standardmy standards for them and Become
subconsciously, sometimes veryadult. Before they're, you know,

(50:05):
what is it 25 Is when their pretoe cortex is supposed to be
fully developed,

Will Voss (50:10):
hey, I had a professor tell me it may be
3031. I think I just got

Unknown (50:15):
the 50 next year. And I think I might be lucky if I get
to some resolution there. Butyou know, it's easy to forget
that and, and I have to catchmyself even even what we expose
them to, you know, we'rebecoming a very news free home,
I've never watched news ontelevision, never expose them to
because of the, of the traumathat really causes. And I'm not

(50:37):
a believer in, you know, theschool of hard knocks, even
though I grew up that way. And Ifeel like I gained many assets
from it, I don't feel like andthis kind of plays into our our
choices about schooling, I don'tfeel like a kid needs to go in
at their age and learn how toget bullied and handle it. I
don't feel like a kid needs togo in and learn how to defend

(51:00):
himself physically, at theirage, I think that's too much for
them too much responsibility togive a child. And again, this is
this to come across veryPollyanna. And I know anybody
who my friends that arelistening to this that are also
our CO parents would be like,well, you know, he's a little
soft there are you what I'veseen, and I saw, you know,

(51:24):
tremendous amounts of healing inboth my kids since they've been
home. Now, I'd love to get themback out into the social world,
and we're working towards that.
But I'm reevaluating how we dothat, and choosing the
environment that we we do thatin. And that actually plays into
I know, this is kind of runninglong, and I've got more than
time than then you guys probablywant but I will tell you, we are

(51:46):
planning on actually moving.
We're moving countries, we'regonna move to Portugal. And we
are going in for many reasons.
One is just I've always I grewup traveling around the world.
And I think that's an invaluableexperience. But we wanted to
experience a different culturewhere, you know, it's far more

(52:06):
family oriented. I'm notdissing, I'm not dissing where,
you know, this culture. But, youknow, it's a, it's a different
approach in the research thatwe've did, I was like, wow,
wouldn't that be nice, you know,to just experience that, and to,
you know, there is no, it's thethird safest country in the

(52:27):
world. And that tells yousomething. Because there's the
cultural difference. Thisdoesn't mean the rituals better
than the US I'm not, I'm notsaying that. But we want to go
and experience these things andsearching consciously for the
next positive supportiveenvironment is extremely
important. And in a microcosmhere in Tennessee, what we've

(52:48):
done is we've been veryconscious about the people we
surround ourselves with, andit's no longer by convenience,
you know, we we've decided it'sworth putting in a massive
amount of effort to surroundourselves with, with supportive
people. And to take that sortof, you know, off the plate for
not just our boys, but forourselves. And it's a conscious

(53:10):
thing is kind of goes back towhat we started with this
conversation, which is, youknow, mental health is, on one
hand, when you're struggling,the hardest thing to do is take
the action that you need to getthere. But it takes massive
action to actually find thehealing and to protect going
forward. So there's a bigconscious effort, I would say,

(53:30):
on our part, and the wholething, you know, encompasses so
many different parts. And by nomeans do I feel like we're,
we're hitting it out of the parkevery day, but but I think as
long as you, you know, is goingback to the kids thing is think
of if they see you striving andcaring and trying. I will tell
you, I apologize to my kids. Asmuch as I've ever apologize to

(53:55):
anybody, you know, ever we talkabout the lizard brain and my
family, you know, at night andearly in the morning, our lizard
brain is you know, is basicallytaken over. And so it's a very,
it's shorthand for us to youknow, hey, hey, buddy, I'm
sorry, my lizard brain was wasnot not doing so hot. And I, I
was very short and I shouldn'thave been. That is so important.

(54:18):
Because if you takeaccountability, you know, we
expect our kids to, you know,take accountability for not
doing your July, you know, weexpect them to take
accountability, but as parentsit's somehow well, because I
said so well, because I said sois never gonna answer. You know,
it's, it's easy. But theaccountability part is really
big. And if they see you takingaccountability, they're like,

(54:41):
oh, I can trust this human. Thishuman who's who basically is in
charge of keeping me safe andhealthy and happy.
And, you know, we don't trustpeople who lie to us. And it's
easy to point to politicians arelying. You know, but our friends
you know, In lying, you know,little white lies, you know,

(55:02):
I'll give you a perfect samplereal quick as we went skiing
recently, and my son's 13. Butski ski tickets were cheaper if
he was 12. Well, we paid theextra 25 bucks, you know,
because they needed to see that,that that isn't important, even
when nobody's looking, even whenyou could get away with it. And
accountability is critical. Andso when they see that, well,

(55:24):
they trust me, because I'm goingto make the same decision on
their behalf. Yeah, even if it'sinconvenient. And, you know,
it's like the friend that youalways see lying to other people
telling Little White Lies,you're like, What the heck he's
saying about me when I'm notaround. You know, that's, it's a
lesson I learned a long timeago. But it's like, it's so
true. We don't think about itwhen it comes to parenting all
the time. And, and, you know,it's a tough pill to swallow

(55:44):
when that's a high bar. Yeah.
Because a lot of pressure to geteverything right, you know?

Yes, absolutely.
And, um, first of all, I need toknow where you went skiing where
it was only $25 difference,because I just bought lift
tickets to go next week, orwhenever. And the difference
minus 14, and the cutoff was 13.
And I bought the 14 year oldticket, and it was $250. More,
but $25. So I was like, thatmoment you have I'm like, I look

(56:15):
at her, like, could she pass for13? Because she looks like she's
18? And I was like, No, ofcourse, I'm not buying the wrong
ticket for her age. But anyways,

Unknown (56:27):
I would be lying if I didn't tell you that my first
instinct was like, That'sridiculous. It's it's what's
it's an age. And then I'm like,wait a minute, you know,

I know. Well, I will say, like, It's too bad.
You guys are moving out of thecountry, because I feel like I
need to hang out with you andAndrea a little bit, because we
could talk all day. I tellpeople all the time. First of
all, I can't relate to any. No,I can't relate to a lot of folks
in terms of discipline, becausewe don't spank our kids. We've

(56:57):
never spanked our kids either.
And that's hard in this culturein Tennessee to explain. And
then the other thing is, I tellpeople all the time, one day,
I'm gonna write a book onparenting with respect, or,
versus parenting with fear. Idon't instill fear in my
children to do what I say andlive up to my expectations. I

(57:18):
developed a respectfulrelationship with them, where we
mutually respect each other andtherefore make choices that
honor each other. And people arelike, what makes your kid Yeah,
have I have I said before,you've made some decisions that

(57:39):
I don't think, show me thatyou're responsible enough to
have that cell phone? 24/7. Sowe're gonna dial it back and do
it differently? Sure, yeah,we've had those conversations.
But I didn't, there wasn't like,punishment, and all Yeah, all of
that we could maybe way we couldtalk about that all day.

Unknown (58:02):
I know, it's a lot.
It's a lot. And I'm notinterested in being popular
either. So like, you know, I'mhappy to talk about things like
that. Even, you know, to anybodywho wants to listen, and I, it
doesn't make me popular amongsome of my former, you know,
Friends, I would say, Yeah, andit doesn't, it doesn't
necessarily make me judge them.
It's just I, I know, it justhighlights the disparity in the

(58:28):
cause and effect that I want tosee in my world. And my heart
will bleed for a lot of childrenthat, you know, like, it's hard
for me to keep my mouth shutwhen I see somebody smacking
their kid in a Walmart, youknow,

oh, it happened to us. I had to take the dreaded
trip to the mall for some skigear to get ready for our trip.
And we passed by a mom beratingher toddler for not staying with
her. And my daughter, I have twogirls, Evan, they're 11 and 14.
And my daughter looked at me andsaid, If that's not emotional

(59:03):
abuse, I don't know what it is.
And I was like,

Unknown (59:09):
wow. And you know, it's good that they recognize that
because when I was that age, Iwouldn't have known any
different you know, there was acorporal punishment in my
family. There was a differentkind of thing happening but now
I wouldn't have I wouldn't havebatted an eye and thought any
different because that was whatall around me was. Yeah.

Will Voss (59:29):
So many so many questions. I'm like you brought
you back. At the mall, Ricky, Iwas gonna ask Evan about those
commercials that I found thatyou did in the mall when you
were younger. I'm like beingborn in Ethiopia. It's so much
so much so much.

Unknown (59:47):
Well, I am looking forward to going back in
Portugal is very close toAfrica. So it's just a little
hop or even a swim to Morocco,but we won't be leaving for a
year so maybe a year and a half.
So June 2023 is when We'replanning on going, we'll be
visiting for two months ofsummer to kind of scout and find
our location and we'll see whatwe'll have to hang

Rikki Harris (01:00:10):
between then yes, let's do and don't tell us
everything on this podcast saveit for the book I

Unknown (01:00:18):
think my book my book days are done.

Or your or your, you know, your documentary or
something. I don't know. You gotsomething to share, Evan, I
think you should. Anyways. Well,thank you. Thank you. Thank you
for participating on thispodcast with us. What a what a
joy. It was complete in so manyways. So things that you said so
thanks for your being very, verycandid.

Unknown (01:00:42):
Absolutely. My pleasure. Thanks for having me.
Here. Well,

the

Brian Sullivan (01:00:54):
thank you to our candid sponsors who made this
episode possible. Service FirstBank is a full service
commercial bank focused oncommercial and private banking
correspondent banking and cashmanagement, emphasizing
competitive products state ofthe art technology and a focus
on quality service. To learnmore about service Firstbank or

(01:01:15):
to contact an office near you.
There's a link provided in thispodcast description along with
the contact email if you or yourbusiness would like to sponsor
an episode of candy.

Erika Lathon (01:01:36):
Thank you for joining us. If you enjoyed
today's program, like subscribeand review this podcast. If you
or someone you know is in needof mental health support
services, log on to tnvoices.org or call
1-800-670-9882. Join us nexttime as we get candid

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