April 24, 2025 • 22 mins
Today on CARD TALK, I’ll cover:
-why we follow rules (and why it's not always bad)
-why we challenge rules
-pages as the tarot's rebels
-which page are you?
-questions for deeper reflection
Recommended resources:
pages, patterns, and everyday rebellions essay on devils & fools
Ocean’s 16 workbook
Order in the Court series
Spiraling Through the Wisdom Year workshop with Bee Scolnick
For more on Meg, check out 3amtarot.com, and order your copy of Finding the Fool through Bookshop.org or your favorite local bookstore.
Find episode transcripts and more over on the CARD TALK website. And as a special thank you for CARD TALK listeners, click here to download a completely free, exclusive workbook for building your best personal tarot practice.
Love what you’re hearing? Support the pod with a one-time donation or recurring subscription, and please subscribe, review, and share with a friend or two!
CARD TALK is written, edited, and produced by Meg Jones Wall of 3am.tarot. Theme music created by PaulYudin.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
I'm Meg Jones-Wall and this is Card Talk, a mini
podcast for tarot basics andevergreen insights.
I'm here to help you build atarot practice that works for
you.
Glad you're here.
Today.
We are going to talk aboutbeing a rule follower and what
it means to start to stretch outof our comfort zones when it
comes to following and adheringto the rules.
(00:33):
Now, before we go literally anyfurther, I want to be so clear
that rule followers are not badpeople.
Okay, if you identify assomeone who is much more
comfortable following the rules.
We're adhering to systems.
You're not a bad person.
You're not a weak person.
There's there's nothing wrongwith it, as I'll talk about more
in a few minutes.
(00:53):
Most of us were raised andtaught and conditioned to be
rule followers.
It has been ingrained in us andtrained into us since we were a
very young age.
We were taught to respectsystems and to respect authority
and to do as we're told, andfor a lot of us, this was a way
of keeping us safe.
Right, following the ruleskeeps us safe, and in some cases
, that's still true.
(01:13):
If you were taught as a kid tolook both ways before you cross
the street, that is still animportant rule to follow, no
matter how old you get or whereyou are.
It is generally a rule of thumbthat is practical and logical
and sensible in order to keepyou safe, but there are other
rules that are wildly arbitraryor that are put in place, in
fact, to cause harm.
And because we are living nowin a time of fascism, we have in
(01:36):
the United States adictator-in-chief who is backed
by tech bros and oligarchs andChristian nationalists who
collectively hold a tremendousamount of power, and what that
means is that these people aregoing to maintain their power
and continue to grow their powerby scaring us with rules that
they set, ones that they don'teven follow themselves, by the
way and they're going to changethose rules constantly as a
(01:58):
gotcha.
They're already doing it.
They want to catch us off guard.
They want to catch us innoncompliance so that they can
label us as criminals orterrorists and punish us
essentially, which means thatbeing a rule follower is not
necessarily going to keep ussafe in the same way that it
once did.
Now, if you're wondering why thefuck I'm talking about this on
a tarot podcast, it's because Iknow that it can be really scary
(02:21):
to think about disrupting thestatus quo or breaking rules or
not following orders.
I'm not telling you that youhave to do anything, but I would
love to encourage you, with thehelp of the tarot, to start
practicing the art of thinkingmore critically about the rules
as written and to think aboutwhat it looks like for you to
challenge those rules Now.
(02:42):
Whether you consider yourself amalicious compliance person
which, like mad respect, I lovemalicious compliance people to
someone who is doing kind ofquiet disobedience in various
ways or if you're someone who'smore of an active frontline
disruptor person, it doesn'tmatter, they're all great.
It's important right now tokeep your mind your own and to
learn how to protect your mindand take care of your own
(03:03):
thoughts and your own ideas andyour own morality.
It's important as well to startgently pushing back as and
where you can in ways that arereally consistently possible for
you.
That might look like organizinga union.
That might look like spendingtime in solidarity with people
in your area.
That might look like gettingplugged into local organizations
that are creating new systemsof care.
(03:24):
I've talked about this so manytimes over the years and I'm
definitely not alone, but thereare a lot of roles to be filled
when it comes to surviving underfascism, and some of them in
fact, I would say most of themrequire a certain flexibility
around, instinctively followingrules, following rules.
(03:45):
The reason I'm talking aboutthis on Card Talk today, besides
the fact that I think it'simportant to name what's
happening around us as often aspossible is that tarot can be a
really great tool for practicingthe art of breaking or bending
or pushing back on orchallenging or questioning rules
, whether it's the rules of thetarot themselves and again,
using huge air quotes here,because I don't think tarot has
that many rules besides do noharm.
(04:05):
There are a lot of ways that wecan use the tarot itself and
the messages and wisdom of thetarot itself to explore our
relationship with rules and ourrelationship with systems, and
to practice keeping our mind ourown.
With all of that in mind, I'mactually going to do something
new on Card Talk, something Ihaven't really done before,
which is read an essay that Irecently published on my
(04:27):
newsletter.
If you're already on my Devilsand Fools newsletter list and
you've read this essay already,don't worry.
I'm going to share someadditional ideas and thoughts,
things that didn't make theessay cut, so to speak,
afterwards, so you'll still begetting some new ideas and
thoughts here, and if youhaven't read it before, I hope
you love hearing it in my voice,and I'll include a link to the
full text, the full essay in theshow notes Pages, patterns and
(04:51):
Rebellions, an essay by MegJones-Wall originally published
on April 21st 2025.
Depending on your brain and yourpersonal history, words like
rebellion or resistance ordisruption might feel
intimidating, scary or evendownright dangerous.
Here in the United States,we're trained from a very young
age to follow the rules andconform, from the routines of
(05:13):
public school mirroring theschedules of nine to five
workers, from being taught toask permission to care for our
bodies in the most basic of waysduring work or class time, from
being shushed or silenced ordismissed when we require
accommodations.
Obedience is drilled into usand often we're praised or
rewarded for this ability to fitin, to stay quiet and to do
(05:34):
what we're told, even when thatobedience causes us harm.
If you were raised in ahigh-control religious
environment, the stakes may feeleven higher.
This kind of submission anddeference is framed as a
requirement for eternalsalvation, giving even the
smallest instances ofdisobedience a very heavy cost.
And, of course, if you live ina marginalized body.
(05:55):
You know well that even thestrictest adherence to the rules
won't necessarily protect youfrom harm, however undeserved.
None of this is by accident.
It's very important, especiallyunder fascist rulers like Trump,
for the masses to be terrifiedof speaking up, fighting back or
acting outside of expectations.
General reluctance to makewaves or break from the status
(06:16):
quo is essential for those inpower to stay in power, and when
leaders make very publicexamples of innocent people
being unfairly punished oreradicated, it is a way of
threatening all of us Obey orelse.
This is an essential reality toacknowledge as we consider
where we are and where we'regoing.
For most people, it's easier tocontinue to conform and stay
(06:39):
quiet, to not ask questions, tokeep the peace.
Most people believe that bykeeping their mouths shut and
their heads down they will staysafe.
But here's the thing we are notmost people, you are not most
people, and the more we practicethe art of disobedience, the
more we train our minds andbodies to intentionally break
(07:00):
arbitrary rules, the easier itbecomes to come up with creative
solutions to problems, imaginenew kinds of futures and stand
up to those in power in moredramatic ways.
Following the rules is not aguarantee of safety, and if the
rules themselves are immoral,why would we want to follow them
anyway?
Tarot has plenty of figures whocan teach us about rebellion or
(07:23):
who invite us to reconsider howthings have always been done and
why they've always been donethat way.
The fool, the empress, thechariot, the hermit, the hanged
one, the devil, the tower, thestar judgment, to name just a
few.
Every one of these archetypescan serve as an invitation to
walk a new path.
Express ourselves openly, breakthrough barriers.
(07:44):
Start a new path.
Express ourselves openly, breakthrough barriers, start a new
journey.
Change our perspective.
Let something come crashingdown.
Reimagine the future or forgiveourselves for who we used to be
.
But for my money, some of themost rebellious figures in the
deck aren't in the major arcanaat all, but instead live amongst
the court cards down here onearth with the rest of us Pages.
(08:05):
The youngest and leastexperienced members of the court
can teach us a lot aboutdisobedience, asking questions,
trying new things and beingwilling to fail.
If you're less familiar orcomfortable with the court cards
, it might be helpful to thinkof the pages in the tarot as
children, students or internsPeople who know a few things but
(08:25):
not everything.
Pages are new here and aretrying to figure shit out.
Pages unapologeticallyinterrupt you to ask questions.
Pages wander off and get intosomething they shouldn't.
Pages wonder why something hasto be done a certain way.
Pages color outside the lines,explore forbidden places, ask if
they can touch the hot pan justto see what happens.
(08:46):
Pages aren't ruled byexpectation or tradition, by the
unspoken rules, by the way thatthings are done around here.
To be a page is to be a bit of amenace complimentary.
For some, embodying this pageenergy will feel as natural as
breathing.
Page energy will feel asnatural as breathing.
(09:07):
But for others, even thethought of behaving like this
might be stressful, irritatingor something to be instinctively
rejected.
Your response to the pages andto rebellion in general is not
good or bad, positive ornegative.
It's just part of who you are,how you were raised and how your
brain works.
Pages can push our buttons,challenge our perspectives,
force us to slow down and findanswers when we don't really
want to.
(09:27):
But regardless of who you are,working with the pages,
embracing and embodying thepages, finding delight in the
pages, can help us locate andembrace this energy within
ourselves and activate it moreconsistently in whatever way
makes sense for us, as often aswe need to.
In what ways are you brave?
In what ways are you different,weird, strange?
(09:50):
In what ways are you loud,disruptive, too much?
When do you get shushed orslowed down, told to be patient
or to wait your turn, or stopasking so many damn questions?
What is a time that you stoodup for yourself or for someone
else, for an idea or a need, fora group of people or an animal,
or a place or a resource?
How have you challenged ideas,assumptions, rules, orders?
(10:14):
What did it look like for youto do that and what did it cost?
Would you do it again?
No matter who you are, there areso many ways that you can
practice disobedience and thatpotent personal rebellion starts
in the everyday.
Listen, spending too much timeon social media will eventually
show you nothing but critics,even from people that you might
(10:36):
politically or ethically agreewith, complaints that every
digital platform is bad, thatprotests aren't ever big or
disruptive enough, thatpetitions don't matter, that
representatives don't listen,that boycotts can't be sustained
, that the system cannot bereformed on and on and on.
Now, criticism is not the enemyhere, since no action is
perfect, but, as prison cultureso succinctly stated on Blue Sky
(10:59):
.
We don't actually know whatwill work.
That means that lots of thingscould work.
The possibilities exist.
If rebellion feels uncomfortablefor you or if you're very
experienced at rebellion, itmight feel easier to criticize
than to get in there yourself.
It's way harder to take achance to put yourself out there
(11:19):
, to lend your voice or yourideas or your body to a cause.
But that's why this kind ofwork is so important because we
need your mind, your creativity,your experience, your ideas.
We need your talents, yourskills, your resources.
We need your ability to dosomething, even if your inner
dictator is telling you that youshouldn't.
(11:40):
We need you just as you are,showing up and getting connected
and trying things that mightnot work, and learning from the
experience and then trying again.
There are a lot of ways to showup, to take action, to make a
difference, and it's fine ifyour best role isn't actually on
the front lines as a disruptoror an offender.
Neither is mine.
(12:00):
I know it's easy to get caughtup in the drama and courage and
visibility embodied by the folkswho are chaining themselves to
buildings or screaming at copsor getting arrested, and trust
that those people need oursupport and our encouragement,
but don't minimize yourcontribution or let your
inability to show up in personto demonstrations or protests or
(12:20):
direct actions keep you fromdoing other essential, powerful
things.
It can be overwhelming torealize just how many paths
forward there are, but in my ownlife, embracing the fact that I
am uniquely suited to be ahealer and a tender has helped
me immensely in not feelingguilty for all the things I
can't participate in, whileempowering me to lean all the
(12:41):
way into the things that I cando in.
While empowering me to lean allthe way into the things that I
can do.
You have an important part toplay too, one that utilizes your
unique skills and talents, andone that you can start to
cultivate right now Leaning intonatural skills and instincts,
exploring what is right at ourfingertips, figuring out where
we fit.
This is exactly what pages do.
(13:02):
It's what they're built for,which means that finding your
personality and your talents andyour abilities within the pages
, recognizing the ways that youyourself already approach
situations with unexpected ideasor unconventional solutions,
can help you figure out whatyour own spirit of disobedience
might actually look like.
Are you passionate and boldhalfway through an action,
(13:23):
before you even actively decidedto do it easily and eagerly,
pushing back at any restrictions, like the page of wands.
Are you curious and inquisitive, never satisfied with answers,
no matter how in depth, able togather and share and archive
information as easily asbreathing?
Like the page of swords?
Are you idealistic andemotional, refusing to quiet
(13:45):
your feelings or hide your aweat the world or be ashamed of
your sensitivity, like the pageof cups?
Are you hungry and active,trusting your body and the
wisdom it carries, willing toget your hands dirty and become
lost so that you can be found,like the page of pentacles?
What would it mean to let thoseenergies and instincts take up
more space in your daily life?
(14:06):
What if you stopped acting likeyour passionate and
enthusiastic approach, or yournatural curiosity and attention
to detail, or your deepcompassion for people around the
world, or your willingness toprotect the physical spaces and
beings around you were somehowbad things?
What if you invited a littlerebellion, a little questioning,
a little pushback into youreveryday?
(14:28):
Now, to be clear, there are somany ways to understand these
page figures, which means thatyour descriptions of or
relationships with these pagesmight be completely different
than mine, and that is fantastic.
I am not here to tell you whatto do or how to understand these
pages and their skills.
I'm just here to tell you whatto do or how to understand these
pages and their skills.
I'm just here to encourage youto do it your own way.
Your flavor of interpretationand your practice of rebellion
(14:52):
doesn't need to look like mine.
It's actually better if itdoesn't.
And so I ask you, how can thesepages help you find your lane?
Learn to question big things,get more comfortable with
pushing back or thinkingdifferently or challenging rules
, whether those rules werewritten by you or by someone
else?
How can you work with one ormore pages to explore your
(15:14):
relationship with resistance andrebellion, to find a way to
expand your perspective on whatit means to disrupt?
How can you learn to seeyourself in these figures and
practice disobedience oftenenough that it becomes an
essential piece of who you are?
How can you become a menace inthe best possible way?
(15:35):
I wrote this essay because Ireally do feel like the pages
model for us ways of coming intoa situation and immediately
questioning the premise ofeverything.
Now, this is not going to becomfortable for everyone.
As I said in the essay,everyone is going to have a
different response to that idea,and everyone's going to express
their uncertainty or theirquestions or their pushback in
(15:56):
different ways, and that is agood thing.
That is a feature, not a bug.
We're not looking for peoplewho are going to do everything
the exact same way.
Our strength really is in ourdifference here, and so I think
the fact that there are fourdifferent pages representing
four different elements, fourdifferent approaches, four
different skill sets is a reallybeautiful reminder that it
(16:18):
takes all kinds to make realchange and to take care of one
another.
We're all going to come into asituation challenging different
things or noticing differentdiscrepancies or offering
different ideas on how somethingcould be better.
And so, as you think about thisidea, as you think about the
pages in the tarot and how theyrepresent different approaches
to mischief making, to questionasking, to pushing back, to
(16:41):
risk-taking, to trying newthings, to touching the hot pan,
you know, whatever it's goingto be, I really want you to
embrace the fact that each pageis going to have a different
approach, and I want you toembrace the fact that it's okay
If you don't personally alignwith all four pages.
One is probably going to feelway more comfortable for you
than the others, and it might bethat several of them feel
(17:02):
really good and several of themdon't feel bad, but maybe just
don't feel as representative ofyour own natural skills and
abilities and like inquisitiveenergy.
Personally, I really resonatewith the page of swords and the
page of cups.
I like to ask questions and Ihave a lot of feelings.
I like information.
I like to give and gather andshare and disperse information
(17:25):
as I can, and I also like toencourage people to sit with
things that matter, to trusttheir intuition, to engage with
people in a way that isvulnerable and sensitive, to
create beauty in the world andenjoy the beauty of the world.
Those things feel reallyintrinsic to not only who I am
as a person, but also to how Idisrupt.
(17:46):
I love to challenge people toactually sit with their feelings
, which can be reallyuncomfortable.
I love to give peoplepermission to feel the things
that they need to feel or toexpress the things that they
need to express in a safe andprotected way, whether that's
private or in community withother people.
Those things are really centralto my work and are also really
(18:06):
reflective of how I move throughthe world.
I am someone that wants to haveinformation, that wants the
people I care about to haveinformation, that wants my
neighbors and community to haveinformation, even if I didn't
create it myself, and you knowif you follow me on Instagram,
you probably know that I alwayshave stories up with links to
other articles or action itemsor mutual aid funds or you know
(18:27):
new things that are happening.
And if you click the link andactually look at this essay as
written, I think it has at leastone link in almost every
paragraph.
I have links to tons of otherresources and writings and
essays and books and all ofthese different things that are
going to help you continue tolearn about this idea and
explore it in a way that worksfor you.
That's just a quick example tohelp you understand what I mean
(18:50):
when I say that the pages canhelp us really clarify our own
spirit of rebellion and startleaning into that in an
intentional way.
We can't all do all the things,and that's okay.
That's why we do these thingsin community, and so practicing
rebellion with people you love,with people around you, finding
ways to engage in a moreconsistent way, even if you have
(19:11):
to start really, really small,which is fine, can be a really
potent and powerful way to startchallenging the systems that
we're in and thinking morecritically about which rules
you're following and why you'refollowing them, and if it's
actually good that you'refollowing them or if it would be
better to push back on them abit.
Now.
I always like to end theseepisodes with a tip or a trick,
just something that you can takeforward from this and really
(19:33):
think about.
Now that the episode iswrapping up, and in this case, I
just really want to encourageyou to spend some time with each
of the pages.
If you know right off the batthat there's a page that you
feel really drawn to, that youfeel really reflects your
personality and your skills andyour strengths and your desires,
pull that page out of your deck, take a picture of it and keep
it as your phone background orput it on an altar.
(19:54):
Put it somewhere you can seeand think about what it means to
embody that page in differentways throughout your life in
your work, in your relationships, in your play, in your rest, in
your creative practices, inyour spiritual practices,
whatever it may be.
But think about what that pagewould do in various situations
and think about what it mightlook like for you to more
(20:15):
intentionally step into thatenergy.
If you're not sure, spend timewith all four pages, one by one,
journal through the process andthink about what that might
look like and how it feels toembody those different energies
and kind of disruption,rebellion styles.
If you want help doing that, Ihave a ton of resources on the
court cards in general, but Ialso released a new workbook
(20:36):
called Ocean 16.
It's heist themed because Ilove a heist, but it literally
will walk you through reallypractical ways to do this with
not just the pages but everymember of the court.
Now this essay will be thefirst in a series of essays.
Of course I'm going to writeabout the other court cards in
various ways, but those essaysaren't written yet.
The workbook is, so feel freeto click the link in the show
(20:57):
notes and check that out If thisis a concept that's really
resonating for you.
I know that things are reallyscary and hard and fucked up
right now, but I am so gratefulto you for spending this 20
minutes or so with me, forlistening to my ideas and my
thoughts.
I sincerely hope that they havebeen supportive and helpful and
inspiring for you.
I'm sending you so much loveand safety and I will be back
(21:20):
again soon with more Card Talk.
Card Talk episodes are alwaysfree for everyone to enjoy, so
if you love what you hear,please consider supporting the
podcast by subscribing,recommending Card Talk to a
friend or donating to help withproduction costs.
You can find episodetranscripts, learn more about me
and join my signature TarotConservatory membership program
(21:44):
through my website, 3amtarotcom.
Thanks for listening and seeyou next time.
I'm Meg Jones-Wall and this is Card Talk, a mini
podcast for tarot basics andevergreen insights.
I'm here to help you build atarot practice that works for
you.
Glad you're here.
Today.
We are going to talk aboutbeing a rule follower and what
it means to start to stretch outof our comfort zones when it
comes to following and adheringto the rules.
(00:33):
Now, before we go literally anyfurther, I want to be so clear
that rule followers are not badpeople.
Okay, if you identify assomeone who is much more
comfortable following the rules.
We're adhering to systems.
You're not a bad person.
You're not a weak person.
There's there's nothing wrongwith it, as I'll talk about more
in a few minutes.
(00:53):
Most of us were raised andtaught and conditioned to be
rule followers.
It has been ingrained in us andtrained into us since we were a
very young age.
We were taught to respectsystems and to respect authority
and to do as we're told, andfor a lot of us, this was a way
of keeping us safe.
Right, following the ruleskeeps us safe, and in some cases
, that's still true.
(01:13):
If you were taught as a kid tolook both ways before you cross
the street, that is still animportant rule to follow, no
matter how old you get or whereyou are.
It is generally a rule of thumbthat is practical and logical
and sensible in order to keepyou safe, but there are other
rules that are wildly arbitraryor that are put in place, in
fact, to cause harm.
And because we are living nowin a time of fascism, we have in
(01:36):
the United States adictator-in-chief who is backed
by tech bros and oligarchs andChristian nationalists who
collectively hold a tremendousamount of power, and what that
means is that these people aregoing to maintain their power
and continue to grow their powerby scaring us with rules that
they set, ones that they don'teven follow themselves, by the
way and they're going to changethose rules constantly as a
(01:58):
gotcha.
They're already doing it.
They want to catch us off guard.
They want to catch us innoncompliance so that they can
label us as criminals orterrorists and punish us
essentially, which means thatbeing a rule follower is not
necessarily going to keep ussafe in the same way that it
once did.
Now, if you're wondering why thefuck I'm talking about this on
a tarot podcast, it's because Iknow that it can be really scary
(02:21):
to think about disrupting thestatus quo or breaking rules or
not following orders.
I'm not telling you that youhave to do anything, but I would
love to encourage you, with thehelp of the tarot, to start
practicing the art of thinkingmore critically about the rules
as written and to think aboutwhat it looks like for you to
challenge those rules Now.
(02:42):
Whether you consider yourself amalicious compliance person
which, like mad respect, I lovemalicious compliance people to
someone who is doing kind ofquiet disobedience in various
ways or if you're someone who'smore of an active frontline
disruptor person, it doesn'tmatter, they're all great.
It's important right now tokeep your mind your own and to
learn how to protect your mindand take care of your own
(03:03):
thoughts and your own ideas andyour own morality.
It's important as well to startgently pushing back as and
where you can in ways that arereally consistently possible for
you.
That might look like organizinga union.
That might look like spendingtime in solidarity with people
in your area.
That might look like gettingplugged into local organizations
that are creating new systemsof care.
(03:24):
I've talked about this so manytimes over the years and I'm
definitely not alone, but thereare a lot of roles to be filled
when it comes to surviving underfascism, and some of them in
fact, I would say most of themrequire a certain flexibility
around, instinctively followingrules, following rules.
(03:45):
The reason I'm talking aboutthis on Card Talk today, besides
the fact that I think it'simportant to name what's
happening around us as often aspossible is that tarot can be a
really great tool for practicingthe art of breaking or bending
or pushing back on orchallenging or questioning rules
, whether it's the rules of thetarot themselves and again,
using huge air quotes here,because I don't think tarot has
that many rules besides do noharm.
(04:05):
There are a lot of ways that wecan use the tarot itself and
the messages and wisdom of thetarot itself to explore our
relationship with rules and ourrelationship with systems, and
to practice keeping our mind ourown.
With all of that in mind, I'mactually going to do something
new on Card Talk, something Ihaven't really done before,
which is read an essay that Irecently published on my
(04:27):
newsletter.
If you're already on my Devilsand Fools newsletter list and
you've read this essay already,don't worry.
I'm going to share someadditional ideas and thoughts,
things that didn't make theessay cut, so to speak,
afterwards, so you'll still begetting some new ideas and
thoughts here, and if youhaven't read it before, I hope
you love hearing it in my voice,and I'll include a link to the
full text, the full essay in theshow notes Pages, patterns and
(04:51):
Rebellions, an essay by MegJones-Wall originally published
on April 21st 2025.
Depending on your brain and yourpersonal history, words like
rebellion or resistance ordisruption might feel
intimidating, scary or evendownright dangerous.
Here in the United States,we're trained from a very young
age to follow the rules andconform, from the routines of
(05:13):
public school mirroring theschedules of nine to five
workers, from being taught toask permission to care for our
bodies in the most basic of waysduring work or class time, from
being shushed or silenced ordismissed when we require
accommodations.
Obedience is drilled into usand often we're praised or
rewarded for this ability to fitin, to stay quiet and to do
(05:34):
what we're told, even when thatobedience causes us harm.
If you were raised in ahigh-control religious
environment, the stakes may feeleven higher.
This kind of submission anddeference is framed as a
requirement for eternalsalvation, giving even the
smallest instances ofdisobedience a very heavy cost.
And, of course, if you live ina marginalized body.
(05:55):
You know well that even thestrictest adherence to the rules
won't necessarily protect youfrom harm, however undeserved.
None of this is by accident.
It's very important, especiallyunder fascist rulers like Trump,
for the masses to be terrifiedof speaking up, fighting back or
acting outside of expectations.
General reluctance to makewaves or break from the status
(06:16):
quo is essential for those inpower to stay in power, and when
leaders make very publicexamples of innocent people
being unfairly punished oreradicated, it is a way of
threatening all of us Obey orelse.
This is an essential reality toacknowledge as we consider
where we are and where we'regoing.
For most people, it's easier tocontinue to conform and stay
(06:39):
quiet, to not ask questions, tokeep the peace.
Most people believe that bykeeping their mouths shut and
their heads down they will staysafe.
But here's the thing we are notmost people, you are not most
people, and the more we practicethe art of disobedience, the
more we train our minds andbodies to intentionally break
(07:00):
arbitrary rules, the easier itbecomes to come up with creative
solutions to problems, imaginenew kinds of futures and stand
up to those in power in moredramatic ways.
Following the rules is not aguarantee of safety, and if the
rules themselves are immoral,why would we want to follow them
anyway?
Tarot has plenty of figures whocan teach us about rebellion or
(07:23):
who invite us to reconsider howthings have always been done and
why they've always been donethat way.
The fool, the empress, thechariot, the hermit, the hanged
one, the devil, the tower, thestar judgment, to name just a
few.
Every one of these archetypescan serve as an invitation to
walk a new path.
Express ourselves openly, breakthrough barriers.
(07:44):
Start a new path.
Express ourselves openly, breakthrough barriers, start a new
journey.
Change our perspective.
Let something come crashingdown.
Reimagine the future or forgiveourselves for who we used to be
.
But for my money, some of themost rebellious figures in the
deck aren't in the major arcanaat all, but instead live amongst
the court cards down here onearth with the rest of us Pages.
(08:05):
The youngest and leastexperienced members of the court
can teach us a lot aboutdisobedience, asking questions,
trying new things and beingwilling to fail.
If you're less familiar orcomfortable with the court cards
, it might be helpful to thinkof the pages in the tarot as
children, students or internsPeople who know a few things but
(08:25):
not everything.
Pages are new here and aretrying to figure shit out.
Pages unapologeticallyinterrupt you to ask questions.
Pages wander off and get intosomething they shouldn't.
Pages wonder why something hasto be done a certain way.
Pages color outside the lines,explore forbidden places, ask if
they can touch the hot pan justto see what happens.
(08:46):
Pages aren't ruled byexpectation or tradition, by the
unspoken rules, by the way thatthings are done around here.
To be a page is to be a bit of amenace complimentary.
For some, embodying this pageenergy will feel as natural as
breathing.
Page energy will feel asnatural as breathing.
(09:07):
But for others, even thethought of behaving like this
might be stressful, irritatingor something to be instinctively
rejected.
Your response to the pages andto rebellion in general is not
good or bad, positive ornegative.
It's just part of who you are,how you were raised and how your
brain works.
Pages can push our buttons,challenge our perspectives,
force us to slow down and findanswers when we don't really
want to.
(09:27):
But regardless of who you are,working with the pages,
embracing and embodying thepages, finding delight in the
pages, can help us locate andembrace this energy within
ourselves and activate it moreconsistently in whatever way
makes sense for us, as often aswe need to.
In what ways are you brave?
In what ways are you different,weird, strange?
(09:50):
In what ways are you loud,disruptive, too much?
When do you get shushed orslowed down, told to be patient
or to wait your turn, or stopasking so many damn questions?
What is a time that you stoodup for yourself or for someone
else, for an idea or a need, fora group of people or an animal,
or a place or a resource?
How have you challenged ideas,assumptions, rules, orders?
(10:14):
What did it look like for youto do that and what did it cost?
Would you do it again?
No matter who you are, there areso many ways that you can
practice disobedience and thatpotent personal rebellion starts
in the everyday.
Listen, spending too much timeon social media will eventually
show you nothing but critics,even from people that you might
(10:36):
politically or ethically agreewith, complaints that every
digital platform is bad, thatprotests aren't ever big or
disruptive enough, thatpetitions don't matter, that
representatives don't listen,that boycotts can't be sustained
, that the system cannot bereformed on and on and on.
Now, criticism is not the enemyhere, since no action is
perfect, but, as prison cultureso succinctly stated on Blue Sky
(10:59):
.
We don't actually know whatwill work.
That means that lots of thingscould work.
The possibilities exist.
If rebellion feels uncomfortablefor you or if you're very
experienced at rebellion, itmight feel easier to criticize
than to get in there yourself.
It's way harder to take achance to put yourself out there
(11:19):
, to lend your voice or yourideas or your body to a cause.
But that's why this kind ofwork is so important because we
need your mind, your creativity,your experience, your ideas.
We need your talents, yourskills, your resources.
We need your ability to dosomething, even if your inner
dictator is telling you that youshouldn't.
(11:40):
We need you just as you are,showing up and getting connected
and trying things that mightnot work, and learning from the
experience and then trying again.
There are a lot of ways to showup, to take action, to make a
difference, and it's fine ifyour best role isn't actually on
the front lines as a disruptoror an offender.
Neither is mine.
(12:00):
I know it's easy to get caughtup in the drama and courage and
visibility embodied by the folkswho are chaining themselves to
buildings or screaming at copsor getting arrested, and trust
that those people need oursupport and our encouragement,
but don't minimize yourcontribution or let your
inability to show up in personto demonstrations or protests or
(12:20):
direct actions keep you fromdoing other essential, powerful
things.
It can be overwhelming torealize just how many paths
forward there are, but in my ownlife, embracing the fact that I
am uniquely suited to be ahealer and a tender has helped
me immensely in not feelingguilty for all the things I
can't participate in, whileempowering me to lean all the
(12:41):
way into the things that I cando in.
While empowering me to lean allthe way into the things that I
can do.
You have an important part toplay too, one that utilizes your
unique skills and talents, andone that you can start to
cultivate right now Leaning intonatural skills and instincts,
exploring what is right at ourfingertips, figuring out where
we fit.
This is exactly what pages do.
(13:02):
It's what they're built for,which means that finding your
personality and your talents andyour abilities within the pages
, recognizing the ways that youyourself already approach
situations with unexpected ideasor unconventional solutions,
can help you figure out whatyour own spirit of disobedience
might actually look like.
Are you passionate and boldhalfway through an action,
(13:23):
before you even actively decidedto do it easily and eagerly,
pushing back at any restrictions, like the page of wands.
Are you curious and inquisitive, never satisfied with answers,
no matter how in depth, able togather and share and archive
information as easily asbreathing?
Like the page of swords?
Are you idealistic andemotional, refusing to quiet
(13:45):
your feelings or hide your aweat the world or be ashamed of
your sensitivity, like the pageof cups?
Are you hungry and active,trusting your body and the
wisdom it carries, willing toget your hands dirty and become
lost so that you can be found,like the page of pentacles?
What would it mean to let thoseenergies and instincts take up
more space in your daily life?
(14:06):
What if you stopped acting likeyour passionate and
enthusiastic approach, or yournatural curiosity and attention
to detail, or your deepcompassion for people around the
world, or your willingness toprotect the physical spaces and
beings around you were somehowbad things?
What if you invited a littlerebellion, a little questioning,
a little pushback into youreveryday?
(14:28):
Now, to be clear, there are somany ways to understand these
page figures, which means thatyour descriptions of or
relationships with these pagesmight be completely different
than mine, and that is fantastic.
I am not here to tell you whatto do or how to understand these
pages and their skills.
I'm just here to tell you whatto do or how to understand these
pages and their skills.
I'm just here to encourage youto do it your own way.
Your flavor of interpretationand your practice of rebellion
(14:52):
doesn't need to look like mine.
It's actually better if itdoesn't.
And so I ask you, how can thesepages help you find your lane?
Learn to question big things,get more comfortable with
pushing back or thinkingdifferently or challenging rules
, whether those rules werewritten by you or by someone
else?
How can you work with one ormore pages to explore your
(15:14):
relationship with resistance andrebellion, to find a way to
expand your perspective on whatit means to disrupt?
How can you learn to seeyourself in these figures and
practice disobedience oftenenough that it becomes an
essential piece of who you are?
How can you become a menace inthe best possible way?
(15:35):
I wrote this essay because Ireally do feel like the pages
model for us ways of coming intoa situation and immediately
questioning the premise ofeverything.
Now, this is not going to becomfortable for everyone.
As I said in the essay,everyone is going to have a
different response to that idea,and everyone's going to express
their uncertainty or theirquestions or their pushback in
(15:56):
different ways, and that is agood thing.
That is a feature, not a bug.
We're not looking for peoplewho are going to do everything
the exact same way.
Our strength really is in ourdifference here, and so I think
the fact that there are fourdifferent pages representing
four different elements, fourdifferent approaches, four
different skill sets is a reallybeautiful reminder that it
(16:18):
takes all kinds to make realchange and to take care of one
another.
We're all going to come into asituation challenging different
things or noticing differentdiscrepancies or offering
different ideas on how somethingcould be better.
And so, as you think about thisidea, as you think about the
pages in the tarot and how theyrepresent different approaches
to mischief making, to questionasking, to pushing back, to
(16:41):
risk-taking, to trying newthings, to touching the hot pan,
you know, whatever it's goingto be, I really want you to
embrace the fact that each pageis going to have a different
approach, and I want you toembrace the fact that it's okay
If you don't personally alignwith all four pages.
One is probably going to feelway more comfortable for you
than the others, and it might bethat several of them feel
(17:02):
really good and several of themdon't feel bad, but maybe just
don't feel as representative ofyour own natural skills and
abilities and like inquisitiveenergy.
Personally, I really resonatewith the page of swords and the
page of cups.
I like to ask questions and Ihave a lot of feelings.
I like information.
I like to give and gather andshare and disperse information
(17:25):
as I can, and I also like toencourage people to sit with
things that matter, to trusttheir intuition, to engage with
people in a way that isvulnerable and sensitive, to
create beauty in the world andenjoy the beauty of the world.
Those things feel reallyintrinsic to not only who I am
as a person, but also to how Idisrupt.
(17:46):
I love to challenge people toactually sit with their feelings
, which can be reallyuncomfortable.
I love to give peoplepermission to feel the things
that they need to feel or toexpress the things that they
need to express in a safe andprotected way, whether that's
private or in community withother people.
Those things are really centralto my work and are also really
(18:06):
reflective of how I move throughthe world.
I am someone that wants to haveinformation, that wants the
people I care about to haveinformation, that wants my
neighbors and community to haveinformation, even if I didn't
create it myself, and you knowif you follow me on Instagram,
you probably know that I alwayshave stories up with links to
other articles or action itemsor mutual aid funds or you know
(18:27):
new things that are happening.
And if you click the link andactually look at this essay as
written, I think it has at leastone link in almost every
paragraph.
I have links to tons of otherresources and writings and
essays and books and all ofthese different things that are
going to help you continue tolearn about this idea and
explore it in a way that worksfor you.
That's just a quick example tohelp you understand what I mean
(18:50):
when I say that the pages canhelp us really clarify our own
spirit of rebellion and startleaning into that in an
intentional way.
We can't all do all the things,and that's okay.
That's why we do these thingsin community, and so practicing
rebellion with people you love,with people around you, finding
ways to engage in a moreconsistent way, even if you have
(19:11):
to start really, really small,which is fine, can be a really
potent and powerful way to startchallenging the systems that
we're in and thinking morecritically about which rules
you're following and why you'refollowing them, and if it's
actually good that you'refollowing them or if it would be
better to push back on them abit.
Now.
I always like to end theseepisodes with a tip or a trick,
just something that you can takeforward from this and really
(19:33):
think about.
Now that the episode iswrapping up, and in this case, I
just really want to encourageyou to spend some time with each
of the pages.
If you know right off the batthat there's a page that you
feel really drawn to, that youfeel really reflects your
personality and your skills andyour strengths and your desires,
pull that page out of your deck, take a picture of it and keep
it as your phone background orput it on an altar.
(19:54):
Put it somewhere you can seeand think about what it means to
embody that page in differentways throughout your life in
your work, in your relationships, in your play, in your rest, in
your creative practices, inyour spiritual practices,
whatever it may be.
But think about what that pagewould do in various situations
and think about what it mightlook like for you to more
(20:15):
intentionally step into thatenergy.
If you're not sure, spend timewith all four pages, one by one,
journal through the process andthink about what that might
look like and how it feels toembody those different energies
and kind of disruption,rebellion styles.
If you want help doing that, Ihave a ton of resources on the
court cards in general, but Ialso released a new workbook
(20:36):
called Ocean 16.
It's heist themed because Ilove a heist, but it literally
will walk you through reallypractical ways to do this with
not just the pages but everymember of the court.
Now this essay will be thefirst in a series of essays.
Of course I'm going to writeabout the other court cards in
various ways, but those essaysaren't written yet.
The workbook is, so feel freeto click the link in the show
(20:57):
notes and check that out If thisis a concept that's really
resonating for you.
I know that things are reallyscary and hard and fucked up
right now, but I am so gratefulto you for spending this 20
minutes or so with me, forlistening to my ideas and my
thoughts.
I sincerely hope that they havebeen supportive and helpful and
inspiring for you.
I'm sending you so much loveand safety and I will be back
(21:20):
again soon with more Card Talk.
Card Talk episodes are alwaysfree for everyone to enjoy, so
if you love what you hear,please consider supporting the
podcast by subscribing,recommending Card Talk to a
friend or donating to help withproduction costs.
You can find episodetranscripts, learn more about me
and join my signature TarotConservatory membership program
(21:44):
through my website, 3amtarotcom.
Thanks for listening and seeyou next time.
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