October 15, 2024 • 23 mins
content warning: brief mention of depression and suicidality
Today on CARD TALK, I’ll cover:
-the potency of grief as a universal experience
-different ways that grief can look and feel
-my own experiences with grief
-three simple ways to use tarot for supporting your grief
-resources to help
Free tarot spread archive
Grief & hope workbook
Archetype Medicine lecture
Magician’s Lens imagination & hope course
3am.tarot readings
Full collection of grief resources
Good Grief Network
For more on Meg, check out 3amtarot.com, and order your copy of Finding the Fool through Bookshop.org or your favorite local bookstore.
Find episode transcripts and more over on the CARD TALK website. And as a special thank you for CARD TALK listeners, click here to download a completely free, exclusive workbook for building your best personal tarot practice.
Love what you’re hearing? Support the pod with a one-time donation or recurring subscription, and please subscribe, review, and share with a friend or two!
CARD TALK is written, edited, and produced by Meg Jones Wall of 3am.tarot. Theme music created by PaulYudin.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
I'm Meg Jones-Wall and this is Card Talk, a mini
podcast for tarot basics andevergreen insights.
I'm here to help you build atarot practice that works for
you.
Glad you're here.
Glad you're here.
In today's episode, we aregoing to talk about using the
(00:31):
tarot as part of a personalgrief practice, or using the
tarot for grief work.
A lot of my work centers on andfocuses on and explores grief in
various ways, and I find griefreally fascinating and important
because grief is a fundamentalhuman experience.
It's pretty universal,regardless of gender, race,
class, identity.
(00:52):
We all experience personal lossin one way or another, even the
most charmed, even the mostwealthy.
We're all going to experiencegrief in some way or another at
some point in our lives.
Now, the ways that we processit, the resources that we have
available to us to move throughit, might be really really
different, but grief itself isextremely common and extremely
(01:14):
human.
Now there are a lot of reallybeautiful and useful frameworks
for approaching andunderstanding grief, but because
my work is in tarot and becausethe framework that I use for so
many things is tarot, I willsay that I find tarot to be a
really powerful tool for makinga companion of our grief Tarot
(01:35):
can really help us explore whatgrief means to us and how it
looks for us personally,identifying the different ways
that grief takes up space in ourlife, and can also help us walk
alongside our grief.
Grief does not have to be theenemy, even at times when it
feels really heavy or painful orimpossible to live with.
Now, as a global community, weare living through and in a
(01:59):
period of deeply profoundcollective grief.
We are observing and beingimpacted by an escalating
climate crisis.
We are witnessing multiplegenocides that we live stream
every day through our phones.
We are watching the increasingimpact of COVID and long COVID.
We are witnessing risingfascism.
There are so many thingshappening that demand our grief.
(02:22):
Grief is really deeplypervasive in a global and
collective way and, of course,there's also a lot of personal
grief happening.
Right now.
Some people are losing lovedones, others are experiencing
grief around relationships,around safety, around a lack of
ideals or differing ideals, lackof finances, lack of resources,
(02:43):
fear of the future and so manymore things.
Right, personal grief livingwithin the context of collective
grief can be so much.
Now.
Grief is an extremely real partof being alive, as I said, but
I think it can be especiallypainful if, like me, you live in
a place like the United States,where grief is not something
(03:03):
that we are particularlyequipped to manage or to
navigate or really to evenidentify.
Our society tends to reallydownplay grief, to minimize it
or to consider it aninconvenience.
Right, we might hold space forgrief for a little bit, but then
it kind of becomes justsomething that is annoying or
frustrating, something that wewant to move through or move
(03:25):
past.
Grief becomes something we wantto get over as quickly as
possible so that we can get backto normal.
Think about the intensepressure put on employees and
also on leadership to be back towork as soon as possible after
even a major loss.
The lack of time that is givenfor grieving or for mourning in
any capacity.
Think about how, even thoughpeople are still dying every
(03:48):
single day from COVID, we don'teven have a day of mourning set
up or a national place for thegrief for those who have been
lost.
Think about how uncomfortablepeople are with really overt
expressions or displays of griefand how quickly support can
drop off in the weeks after evena major loss.
I say all of this because griefcan be really isolating, no
(04:09):
matter where you are, butespecially in places that don't
have a lot of respect for lossor that would prefer to deny
that death or loss or grief areparts of life.
And look, tarot is not the sameas a person that can hold you
or that can wipe away your tearsor cook you a meal or clean
your house right.
Tarot is not the same as asocial group that is going to be
(04:30):
there for you or chosen familythat's going to show up in dark
times.
But tarot can give us atherapeutic and honest space to
process some of our heaviestfeelings, to find the support
that we need in dark or lonelymoments and to explore what
we're feeling in a really gentleand open way.
I don't believe that tarotshould be the only tool you use
(04:52):
to reckon with and navigate yourgrief, but tarot can be a
really great tool to have inyour toolbox.
It can work really beautifullywith other support modalities
like breathwork, like therapy,like group therapy, like
medication, like other thingsthat are going to help you move
through the darkest periods ofyour grief, and with these
(05:17):
larger kind of broad, collectivegriefs that don't necessarily
have a clear end in sight, Ithink that tarot can be a really
useful framework and system andregular routine or ritual or
practice to have as a way ofconsistently visiting your grief
, of making a companion of yourgrief and of really learning
what your grief looks like andhow it shows up and what it can
use in times of real sharpnessor real tenderness.
(05:40):
Now, while I'm not going toshare my life story, I do think
it's worth exploring a littlebit why I am so interested in
grief.
Besides the fact that I haveChiron directly on my Ascendant
and a sixth house, scorpio sunthat is co-present with Pluto,
saturn and the South node, Ithink there's also a lot in my
own personal history that reallypoints to a deep relationship
(06:01):
and an intimate long-termrelationship with grief.
As a white person from amiddle-class family, I have
lived a fairly privileged lifein a lot of ways, but I have
also experienced quite a bit ofgrief.
I spent the first few decadesof my life really aggressively
hiding who I was, pretending tobe straight and cis and
able-bodied in order to betterfit in with my very evangelical
(06:23):
family and conservative socialgroups.
It was easier to hide in plainsight, but that does have a cost
.
I didn't get medical care thatI needed.
I didn't get social supportthat I needed and when hard
things happened I felt moreisolated than ever.
I've lost close friends, from abest friend when I was 16 to
friends later in life, fromillnesses but also from painful
(06:44):
falling outs.
I have lived with majordepressive disorder for most of
my life and have endured periodsof self-harm.
I have also survived twosuicide attempts.
I'm glad to be here, but it'sbeen a long road.
I have endured neglect andabandonment.
There's also just a lot ofgrief as someone who is
chronically ill and disabled andimmunocompromised, especially
in a worldwide pandemic, and Ihave had to set really strict,
(07:07):
difficult boundaries with peoplethat I love, people that I
cannot safely have in my lifeanymore, which brings a
tremendous amount of grief thatI still have to navigate every
day.
Of course, more broadly, I amalso a person who cares really
deeply about our environment andabout marginalized communities,
which means that pretty muchevery day right now, I'm reading
the news and find something togrieve deeply.
(07:29):
Now, now, I wouldn't trade mytender heart or my big feelings
for anything.
They are such a important andbig part of who I am.
I'm really grateful to becompassionate, but it is very
painful to bear witness toatrocities and devastation, to
witness pain on such an immensescale and to feel so powerless
to combat it.
Now, I'm not telling you thisso that you feel sorry for me or
(07:51):
something, but I am telling youthis so that you recognize that
grief is everywhere and thateveryone has some kind of grief
story or grief experience.
We all have to find ways tolive with our grief, to move
through our grief, to sit withour grief, to weather those
internal storms in differentways.
There is a lot of grief in thefeeling of uncertainty.
(08:13):
I think for a lot of people,uncertainty is kind of what
grief looks like that sense ofanxiety, that inability to
control something which is soco-present with grief.
Those famous five stages ofgrief that you might be familiar
with were never designed to bea through line trajectory or
like a map for how griefmanifests in everyone, but I
(08:34):
think that rage, denial,bargaining and depression are
all very, extremely common andvery legitimate reactions to
grief.
For a lot of people,compartmentalization is a true
and necessary survival strategy.
Especially if you have a reallydemanding job or a lack of
support in your life, it mightliterally feel like there's no
(08:55):
time for you to grieve, or ifyou allow yourself to grieve,
you're going to completely fallapart and not be able to put
yourself back together again.
I will say that in myexperience, unfortunately, I
found that while you cancompartmentalize and kind of
kick the can of grief down theroad for a while, you're still
generally probably going to haveto deal with it at one point or
another, which is whycompartmentalization, while it
(09:17):
can be a good short-termsurvival strategy, is not
generally a great long-termsurvival strategy.
For others, grief can beincredibly raw just all the time
.
It becomes this really tender,like aching open wound almost.
It just feels like it's rightat the surface all the time,
like something that's nevergoing to heal.
And that can be a reallydifferent but also completely
(09:40):
valid experience of grief thatjust endless overflow, that
feeling that you can't keepyourself together, regardless of
the circumstance or situation.
There's a reason that the deathcard in tarot is a four card
because it is a boundary ofsorts.
It is a kind of control that wedon't necessarily have agency
(10:00):
over.
It's a hard line that we didn'tdraw and there is a lot of pain
in that, and that inability tofix something or change
something, that forced surrender, that sense of uncertainty
around what we can actually doto overcome or move through
something.
Now, regardless of how yourgrief expresses itself or how it
(10:20):
feels, as well as how youmanage it or move through it in
your daily life, I really dothink that grief is one of the
most authentic and powerfulsensations that we experience as
human beings and as corporealbeings in this world.
Right, grief reveals so muchabout us and who we are and what
we care about and what mattersto us.
(10:41):
And when we're able to show ourgrief, love and compassion,
instead of just being frustratedat ourselves for going numb or
getting angry or feeling likewe're drowning, it can really
help us to navigate it with abit more generosity and can make
it an easier thing to swallow.
I can't fix the problems of theworld.
I cannot take away your griefand I cannot give you back
(11:05):
whatever you've lost, but I cangive you a couple of ways really
simple ways that you can usethe tarot to explore and tend to
your grief, and I can alsooffer you some different
resources I've made that live inthis specific intersection and
might be able to help.
The first thing I want to talkabout is tarot readings or using
your cards to shuffle, ask aquestion and pull a card and
(11:29):
interpret that card as an answeror as a response.
Now, tarot readings can bereally polarizing when you're
grieving, because for somepeople they feel really good and
for other people they mightfeel really bad.
So I really want to encourageyou to use discernment when
you're trying to decide if youwant to, and how you're going to
(11:49):
, pull tarot cards for yourselfaround grief.
Especially, I think, using aspread that's kind of broad or
general that isn't particularlyclear or support focused, or
just pulling cards without aspread and not necessarily
having a super clear question.
Sometimes those kinds ofreadings can do more harm than
good.
It's why, when we're feelingreally activated or really
(12:10):
stressed or really emotional,tarot readings for ourselves can
be really challenging.
So if you really want to do areading, this could be a great
time to ask a friend to pullcards for you or to get a
professional reading fromsomeone who can be a little bit
more objective.
However, if you want to pullcards for yourself, I typically
would recommend a really simpletarot spread.
(12:31):
That's going to be the mosthelpful for giving some shape
and framework to your readings,especially because in the depths
of grief.
It can be easy to see toughcards and sort of get lost in
those cards or to feel reallyactivated or stressed out by
those cards.
If you want to do a two cardspread, I suggest shuffling up
your deck and pulling out twodifferent cards, one for each
(12:52):
position.
The first card is going to be acard to represent how you feel
in this moment just a way of thecards acknowledging your
emotions and the way that youfeel right now.
And then read the second cardas representative of how you can
show some compassion toyourself and to your grief right
now, an action item, somethingthat you can literally do in
(13:14):
order to take care of yourself.
I really like this one when I'mfeeling particularly alone with
my grief, because the cards getan opportunity to just
acknowledge the heavy feelingsthat you might be holding and
also just offer a path forward,something that you can do in
this moment to take care ofyourself, which I find really
helpful when I'm having a hardtime.
And if you prefer three cardreadings, you can also try
(13:36):
shuffling up your deck andpulling three cards out.
Read the first as an outlet foryour grief that you can utilize.
You know some place that youcan put some of your grief, a
way that you can let your griefexpress itself.
Read the second card as a waythat you can show yourself some
love, so kind of like the secondposition.
In that first reading we didsomething you can do for
(13:57):
yourself in this particularmoment to offer yourself some
grace, some sweetness, somekindness.
And then read the third card asa truth, to remember something
that remains true no matter howyou're feeling in this
particular moment, this canreally serve as something to
hang on to or a way to anchorinto yourself, even if it feels
like you're lost in your griefcompletely.
(14:19):
I like the spread when myfeelings feel too big and I
don't quite know what to do withthem or how to manage them.
This feel like reallyactionable steps to me to show
up for myself in ways that arerealistic and are going to be
actually supportive.
And the reason that I recommendthese two spreads is because
they're really about comfort,clarity and self-compassion.
(14:41):
They are really designed tohold space for your heavy
emotions without bringing in toomuch sharpness or leaving too
much wiggle room to kind of getlost in the sauce if you pull a
card that feels challenging foryou personally and, of course, I
have lots of other tarotspreads available on my website
and through my newsletter, soI'll put links to those in the
show notes as well.
Now, if a reading just feelslike too much, which I think is
(15:08):
extremely real, one of myfavorite exercises to do instead
of tarot readings is tomanually go through the cards in
your tarot deck and find a cardthat represents the emotions
you're feeling in this moment.
You can choose more than one Ifit feels like a combination of
cards is going to best representthe emotions that feel the most
present or the loudest for you.
But really think about theemotions that you're feeling and
the cards that reflect thoseemotions.
(15:29):
Once you've chosen them likelay them out on a surface, and
then I want you to look at thosecards and really think about
what the medicine for thosecards might be, what might serve
as a comfort or a balm or asolution to the problems of
those cards.
And once you've identified whatyou think the potential
medicine for those emotion cardsis, then go through your deck a
(15:51):
second time, leaving thoseemotion cards out, and find some
cards that you feel representthat medicine that you were just
thinking about.
Lay them out side by side andlook at them all together and
then you can really journalabout them.
You can think through what thatmedicine might look like for you
, how that card could serve asan archetype that you want to
work with or just as inspirationfor a way that you can take
(16:14):
care of those emotions in thisexact moment.
To give you an example of whatthat might look like you might
just be feeling really stuck,really stagnant.
There's all of these obstaclesaround you.
You've kind of backed yourselfinto a corner and you just
cannot see a path forward.
It feels like you just can'tthink through what to do next.
You just feel really stuck andfrozen.
(16:36):
So you might end up pulling thehanged one as an archetype, as
well as like the eight of swords.
It might feel like you cannotmove in any direction, like you
don't know what to do, likeyou're out of control, and it
might feel like those two cardsreally represent that feeling of
stuckness and being trapped andjust feeling out of options.
So then, looking at those cardstogether, you might think, okay
(16:58):
, what's a balm for this?
It might be movement, but itmight also be imagination, right
?
It might also be looking at thesituation from a different
perspective right, it might alsobe getting creative with your
problem solving or being able toapproach the situation in a new
way.
And when you think about cards,of creative problem solving, of
(17:18):
imagination, of perspective, oflooking at something in a new
way, you might think about themagician archetype.
Or you might think about, likethe four of wands right, you
might think about momentum andstructure and intentionality, as
well as dreaming really big andfeeling really well-resourced,
and then you might decide thatyou want to work with the
magician or with the four ofwands, or with strength, perhaps
(17:40):
right, you could journal withthose cards, you could meditate
with those cards, you couldreally think about what those
cards might have to offer to youas advice and medicine in this
particular moment.
So I find this to be a reallysupportive exercise when
readings feel like too much, butI still want to work with my
cards in a really tangible way.
The last thing that I just haveto mention, because of who I am
(18:01):
as a person, is journaling.
I know I'm a broken recordabout journaling, but there are
just so many ways to use thistechnique and so many ways that
it can be useful.
Especially when emotions areheavy.
Journaling does not have to becomplete sentences or beautiful
words.
It doesn't have to be somethingthat anyone else sees.
It doesn't even have to makesense to you or to anyone else.
(18:22):
All journaling has to be, Ithink, is, honest.
I would encourage you to trywriting down keywords or bullet
points or sentence fragments,making space for doodles,
writing down song lyrics orpieces of poetry or movie quotes
literally whatever.
Sometimes just giving yourselfspace to put your feelings down
on a page, whether that'sconnected with tarot or not, can
(18:44):
just be really therapeutic andhelpful.
It can be nice to just have itlive somewhere that's not in
your body.
If you want to use tarot forthis, there's a lot of different
ways to do tarot journaling,but, particularly when emotions
are heavy, I like to go throughthe archetypes, both the major
arcana, like Trump archetypes,as well as the minor arcana
archetypes, which are what Iconsider the court cards, and
(19:06):
find one that really representsthe kind of energy that I want
to have.
Right, if I'm feeling like mycreativity is really flailing or
floundering.
If I feel like I can't look atsomething and have a million
ideas, I might pick a card fromthe suit of wands.
Right, or, again, the magician,if I'm feeling like I'm really
struggling to trust myself orknow who I am, I'm definitely
(19:28):
going to pull out the priestessor the king of cups, right.
And if I just want to be braveand do something really badass,
I might pick one of the knights,right.
They're really courageous to me, they feel like they are really
willing to take some risks andmake some bold moves.
And then I like to journalabout that, about what it might
look like for me to reallyembody that energy, how I could
practically step into thatenergy or embrace that energy in
(19:52):
my life.
In other words, what it wouldlook like if that archetype was
me for a day, what they might doin my shoes, and then that
gives me some action items andsome feelings to sort through.
That for me feel really helpful.
But you can also pair journalingwith basically anything else,
right.
You can journal about a tarotreading that you've done, about
that medicine exercise that Ijust shared, about a card that
(20:14):
perhaps keeps coming up for you,literally whatever you like and
whatever is going to feel good.
This episode is going a littlebit long, but I want to share
some additional resources withyou before I go, because I have
a lot of resources, specificallyon grief as well as on hope.
Again, I'm going to puteverything into the show notes
here, but I do have a brand newjournaling workbook.
I've just released it and it'salready really getting beautiful
(20:36):
, lovely reviews from the peoplewho purchased it right away.
So I highly recommend that ifyou want to use tarot and
journaling, or if you feeloverwhelmed and you want some
support.
You want a framework that youcan follow, a workbook that you
can just move your way through.
I also have an upcomingarchetype medicine lecture that
is going to talk you throughmore in-depth ways of working
(20:56):
with different archetypes andusing them to support yourself
through challenging times.
I am running an imaginationbased course on the magician,
which is really all aboutlearning to expand your
imagination, to get morecreative with your problem
solving and to really activate asense of hope within yourself.
And I'm also open for readingsagain, which means that you can
work with me one-on-one if you'dlike, for a terror reading
(21:19):
about finding hope in the dark,for working with a particular
archetype, or I do customreadings, and we can talk about
anything you like.
Please, if you're struggling,check out some of these
resources.
I have things at a lot ofdifferent price points to try
and give you the support thatyou need.
This episode is already filledwith tips and tricks, so instead
of ending with another one, Ijust want to say I know that
(21:40):
things are impossibly hard anddark and scary right now.
I'm feeling it.
I'm sure you're feeling it too.
I really want to encourage younot to deny your grief, but to
also remind you that you don'thave to lose yourself in it
either.
There are absolutely ways tosit in that threshold of grief
and hope and hold space for bothsimultaneously.
(22:02):
Seeking out hope, activatingyour imagination, finding ways
to take care of yourself doesn'tmean you're not grieving, but
rest and pleasure and comfortare necessary for you to be able
to keep fighting.
Okay, please, don't feel guiltyfor trying to take care of
yourself in these impossibletimes.
Don't stop fighting, but don'tdeny yourself the things that
(22:22):
you need to survive as a humanbeing either.
Again, I do think that tarotcan be a really powerful
companion tool for thesepractices, but I also just
really want to encourage you tofind outlets for your emotions,
to share your feelings withothers and be in community with
people who share your values,and also to use whatever tools
you have at your disposal totake care of yourself and the
(22:44):
people that you love.
That is all I have for youtoday, but, as always, thank you
so much for spending this timewith me, sending you a lot of
love and safety, and I'll beback again soon with more Card
Talk.
Card Talk episodes are alwaysfree for everyone to enjoy, so
if you love what you hear,please consider supporting the
podcast by subscribing,recommending Card Talk to a
(23:06):
friend or donating to help withproduction costs.
You can find episodetranscripts.
Learn more about me productioncosts.
You can find episodetranscripts.
Learn more about me and join mysignature Tarot Conservatory
membership program through mywebsite, 3amtarotcom.
Thanks for listening and seeyou next time.
I'm Meg Jones-Wall and this is Card Talk, a mini
podcast for tarot basics andevergreen insights.
I'm here to help you build atarot practice that works for
you.
Glad you're here.
Glad you're here.
In today's episode, we aregoing to talk about using the
(00:31):
tarot as part of a personalgrief practice, or using the
tarot for grief work.
A lot of my work centers on andfocuses on and explores grief in
various ways, and I find griefreally fascinating and important
because grief is a fundamentalhuman experience.
It's pretty universal,regardless of gender, race,
class, identity.
(00:52):
We all experience personal lossin one way or another, even the
most charmed, even the mostwealthy.
We're all going to experiencegrief in some way or another at
some point in our lives.
Now, the ways that we processit, the resources that we have
available to us to move throughit, might be really really
different, but grief itself isextremely common and extremely
(01:14):
human.
Now there are a lot of reallybeautiful and useful frameworks
for approaching andunderstanding grief, but because
my work is in tarot and becausethe framework that I use for so
many things is tarot, I willsay that I find tarot to be a
really powerful tool for makinga companion of our grief Tarot
(01:35):
can really help us explore whatgrief means to us and how it
looks for us personally,identifying the different ways
that grief takes up space in ourlife, and can also help us walk
alongside our grief.
Grief does not have to be theenemy, even at times when it
feels really heavy or painful orimpossible to live with.
Now, as a global community, weare living through and in a
(01:59):
period of deeply profoundcollective grief.
We are observing and beingimpacted by an escalating
climate crisis.
We are witnessing multiplegenocides that we live stream
every day through our phones.
We are watching the increasingimpact of COVID and long COVID.
We are witnessing risingfascism.
There are so many thingshappening that demand our grief.
(02:22):
Grief is really deeplypervasive in a global and
collective way and, of course,there's also a lot of personal
grief happening.
Right now.
Some people are losing lovedones, others are experiencing
grief around relationships,around safety, around a lack of
ideals or differing ideals, lackof finances, lack of resources,
(02:43):
fear of the future and so manymore things.
Right, personal grief livingwithin the context of collective
grief can be so much.
Now.
Grief is an extremely real partof being alive, as I said, but
I think it can be especiallypainful if, like me, you live in
a place like the United States,where grief is not something
(03:03):
that we are particularlyequipped to manage or to
navigate or really to evenidentify.
Our society tends to reallydownplay grief, to minimize it
or to consider it aninconvenience.
Right, we might hold space forgrief for a little bit, but then
it kind of becomes justsomething that is annoying or
frustrating, something that wewant to move through or move
(03:25):
past.
Grief becomes something we wantto get over as quickly as
possible so that we can get backto normal.
Think about the intensepressure put on employees and
also on leadership to be back towork as soon as possible after
even a major loss.
The lack of time that is givenfor grieving or for mourning in
any capacity.
Think about how, even thoughpeople are still dying every
(03:48):
single day from COVID, we don'teven have a day of mourning set
up or a national place for thegrief for those who have been
lost.
Think about how uncomfortablepeople are with really overt
expressions or displays of griefand how quickly support can
drop off in the weeks after evena major loss.
I say all of this because griefcan be really isolating, no
(04:09):
matter where you are, butespecially in places that don't
have a lot of respect for lossor that would prefer to deny
that death or loss or grief areparts of life.
And look, tarot is not the sameas a person that can hold you
or that can wipe away your tearsor cook you a meal or clean
your house right.
Tarot is not the same as asocial group that is going to be
(04:30):
there for you or chosen familythat's going to show up in dark
times.
But tarot can give us atherapeutic and honest space to
process some of our heaviestfeelings, to find the support
that we need in dark or lonelymoments and to explore what
we're feeling in a really gentleand open way.
I don't believe that tarotshould be the only tool you use
(04:52):
to reckon with and navigate yourgrief, but tarot can be a
really great tool to have inyour toolbox.
It can work really beautifullywith other support modalities
like breathwork, like therapy,like group therapy, like
medication, like other thingsthat are going to help you move
through the darkest periods ofyour grief, and with these
(05:17):
larger kind of broad, collectivegriefs that don't necessarily
have a clear end in sight, Ithink that tarot can be a really
useful framework and system andregular routine or ritual or
practice to have as a way ofconsistently visiting your grief
, of making a companion of yourgrief and of really learning
what your grief looks like andhow it shows up and what it can
use in times of real sharpnessor real tenderness.
(05:40):
Now, while I'm not going toshare my life story, I do think
it's worth exploring a littlebit why I am so interested in
grief.
Besides the fact that I haveChiron directly on my Ascendant
and a sixth house, scorpio sunthat is co-present with Pluto,
saturn and the South node, Ithink there's also a lot in my
own personal history that reallypoints to a deep relationship
(06:01):
and an intimate long-termrelationship with grief.
As a white person from amiddle-class family, I have
lived a fairly privileged lifein a lot of ways, but I have
also experienced quite a bit ofgrief.
I spent the first few decadesof my life really aggressively
hiding who I was, pretending tobe straight and cis and
able-bodied in order to betterfit in with my very evangelical
(06:23):
family and conservative socialgroups.
It was easier to hide in plainsight, but that does have a cost
.
I didn't get medical care thatI needed.
I didn't get social supportthat I needed and when hard
things happened I felt moreisolated than ever.
I've lost close friends, from abest friend when I was 16 to
friends later in life, fromillnesses but also from painful
(06:44):
falling outs.
I have lived with majordepressive disorder for most of
my life and have endured periodsof self-harm.
I have also survived twosuicide attempts.
I'm glad to be here, but it'sbeen a long road.
I have endured neglect andabandonment.
There's also just a lot ofgrief as someone who is
chronically ill and disabled andimmunocompromised, especially
in a worldwide pandemic, and Ihave had to set really strict,
(07:07):
difficult boundaries with peoplethat I love, people that I
cannot safely have in my lifeanymore, which brings a
tremendous amount of grief thatI still have to navigate every
day.
Of course, more broadly, I amalso a person who cares really
deeply about our environment andabout marginalized communities,
which means that pretty muchevery day right now, I'm reading
the news and find something togrieve deeply.
(07:29):
Now, now, I wouldn't trade mytender heart or my big feelings
for anything.
They are such a important andbig part of who I am.
I'm really grateful to becompassionate, but it is very
painful to bear witness toatrocities and devastation, to
witness pain on such an immensescale and to feel so powerless
to combat it.
Now, I'm not telling you thisso that you feel sorry for me or
(07:51):
something, but I am telling youthis so that you recognize that
grief is everywhere and thateveryone has some kind of grief
story or grief experience.
We all have to find ways tolive with our grief, to move
through our grief, to sit withour grief, to weather those
internal storms in differentways.
There is a lot of grief in thefeeling of uncertainty.
(08:13):
I think for a lot of people,uncertainty is kind of what
grief looks like that sense ofanxiety, that inability to
control something which is soco-present with grief.
Those famous five stages ofgrief that you might be familiar
with were never designed to bea through line trajectory or
like a map for how griefmanifests in everyone, but I
(08:34):
think that rage, denial,bargaining and depression are
all very, extremely common andvery legitimate reactions to
grief.
For a lot of people,compartmentalization is a true
and necessary survival strategy.
Especially if you have a reallydemanding job or a lack of
support in your life, it mightliterally feel like there's no
(08:55):
time for you to grieve, or ifyou allow yourself to grieve,
you're going to completely fallapart and not be able to put
yourself back together again.
I will say that in myexperience, unfortunately, I
found that while you cancompartmentalize and kind of
kick the can of grief down theroad for a while, you're still
generally probably going to haveto deal with it at one point or
another, which is whycompartmentalization, while it
(09:17):
can be a good short-termsurvival strategy, is not
generally a great long-termsurvival strategy.
For others, grief can beincredibly raw just all the time
.
It becomes this really tender,like aching open wound almost.
It just feels like it's rightat the surface all the time,
like something that's nevergoing to heal.
And that can be a reallydifferent but also completely
(09:40):
valid experience of grief thatjust endless overflow, that
feeling that you can't keepyourself together, regardless of
the circumstance or situation.
There's a reason that the deathcard in tarot is a four card
because it is a boundary ofsorts.
It is a kind of control that wedon't necessarily have agency
(10:00):
over.
It's a hard line that we didn'tdraw and there is a lot of pain
in that, and that inability tofix something or change
something, that forced surrender, that sense of uncertainty
around what we can actually doto overcome or move through
something.
Now, regardless of how yourgrief expresses itself or how it
(10:20):
feels, as well as how youmanage it or move through it in
your daily life, I really dothink that grief is one of the
most authentic and powerfulsensations that we experience as
human beings and as corporealbeings in this world.
Right, grief reveals so muchabout us and who we are and what
we care about and what mattersto us.
(10:41):
And when we're able to show ourgrief, love and compassion,
instead of just being frustratedat ourselves for going numb or
getting angry or feeling likewe're drowning, it can really
help us to navigate it with abit more generosity and can make
it an easier thing to swallow.
I can't fix the problems of theworld.
I cannot take away your griefand I cannot give you back
(11:05):
whatever you've lost, but I cangive you a couple of ways really
simple ways that you can usethe tarot to explore and tend to
your grief, and I can alsooffer you some different
resources I've made that live inthis specific intersection and
might be able to help.
The first thing I want to talkabout is tarot readings or using
your cards to shuffle, ask aquestion and pull a card and
(11:29):
interpret that card as an answeror as a response.
Now, tarot readings can bereally polarizing when you're
grieving, because for somepeople they feel really good and
for other people they mightfeel really bad.
So I really want to encourageyou to use discernment when
you're trying to decide if youwant to, and how you're going to
(11:49):
, pull tarot cards for yourselfaround grief.
Especially, I think, using aspread that's kind of broad or
general that isn't particularlyclear or support focused, or
just pulling cards without aspread and not necessarily
having a super clear question.
Sometimes those kinds ofreadings can do more harm than
good.
It's why, when we're feelingreally activated or really
(12:10):
stressed or really emotional,tarot readings for ourselves can
be really challenging.
So if you really want to do areading, this could be a great
time to ask a friend to pullcards for you or to get a
professional reading fromsomeone who can be a little bit
more objective.
However, if you want to pullcards for yourself, I typically
would recommend a really simpletarot spread.
(12:31):
That's going to be the mosthelpful for giving some shape
and framework to your readings,especially because in the depths
of grief.
It can be easy to see toughcards and sort of get lost in
those cards or to feel reallyactivated or stressed out by
those cards.
If you want to do a two cardspread, I suggest shuffling up
your deck and pulling out twodifferent cards, one for each
(12:52):
position.
The first card is going to be acard to represent how you feel
in this moment just a way of thecards acknowledging your
emotions and the way that youfeel right now.
And then read the second cardas representative of how you can
show some compassion toyourself and to your grief right
now, an action item, somethingthat you can literally do in
(13:14):
order to take care of yourself.
I really like this one when I'mfeeling particularly alone with
my grief, because the cards getan opportunity to just
acknowledge the heavy feelingsthat you might be holding and
also just offer a path forward,something that you can do in
this moment to take care ofyourself, which I find really
helpful when I'm having a hardtime.
And if you prefer three cardreadings, you can also try
(13:36):
shuffling up your deck andpulling three cards out.
Read the first as an outlet foryour grief that you can utilize.
You know some place that youcan put some of your grief, a
way that you can let your griefexpress itself.
Read the second card as a waythat you can show yourself some
love, so kind of like the secondposition.
In that first reading we didsomething you can do for
(13:57):
yourself in this particularmoment to offer yourself some
grace, some sweetness, somekindness.
And then read the third card asa truth, to remember something
that remains true no matter howyou're feeling in this
particular moment, this canreally serve as something to
hang on to or a way to anchorinto yourself, even if it feels
like you're lost in your griefcompletely.
(14:19):
I like the spread when myfeelings feel too big and I
don't quite know what to do withthem or how to manage them.
This feel like reallyactionable steps to me to show
up for myself in ways that arerealistic and are going to be
actually supportive.
And the reason that I recommendthese two spreads is because
they're really about comfort,clarity and self-compassion.
(14:41):
They are really designed tohold space for your heavy
emotions without bringing in toomuch sharpness or leaving too
much wiggle room to kind of getlost in the sauce if you pull a
card that feels challenging foryou personally and, of course, I
have lots of other tarotspreads available on my website
and through my newsletter, soI'll put links to those in the
show notes as well.
Now, if a reading just feelslike too much, which I think is
(15:08):
extremely real, one of myfavorite exercises to do instead
of tarot readings is tomanually go through the cards in
your tarot deck and find a cardthat represents the emotions
you're feeling in this moment.
You can choose more than one Ifit feels like a combination of
cards is going to best representthe emotions that feel the most
present or the loudest for you.
But really think about theemotions that you're feeling and
the cards that reflect thoseemotions.
(15:29):
Once you've chosen them likelay them out on a surface, and
then I want you to look at thosecards and really think about
what the medicine for thosecards might be, what might serve
as a comfort or a balm or asolution to the problems of
those cards.
And once you've identified whatyou think the potential
medicine for those emotion cardsis, then go through your deck a
(15:51):
second time, leaving thoseemotion cards out, and find some
cards that you feel representthat medicine that you were just
thinking about.
Lay them out side by side andlook at them all together and
then you can really journalabout them.
You can think through what thatmedicine might look like for you
, how that card could serve asan archetype that you want to
work with or just as inspirationfor a way that you can take
(16:14):
care of those emotions in thisexact moment.
To give you an example of whatthat might look like you might
just be feeling really stuck,really stagnant.
There's all of these obstaclesaround you.
You've kind of backed yourselfinto a corner and you just
cannot see a path forward.
It feels like you just can'tthink through what to do next.
You just feel really stuck andfrozen.
(16:36):
So you might end up pulling thehanged one as an archetype, as
well as like the eight of swords.
It might feel like you cannotmove in any direction, like you
don't know what to do, likeyou're out of control, and it
might feel like those two cardsreally represent that feeling of
stuckness and being trapped andjust feeling out of options.
So then, looking at those cardstogether, you might think, okay
(16:58):
, what's a balm for this?
It might be movement, but itmight also be imagination, right
?
It might also be looking at thesituation from a different
perspective right, it might alsobe getting creative with your
problem solving or being able toapproach the situation in a new
way.
And when you think about cards,of creative problem solving, of
(17:18):
imagination, of perspective, oflooking at something in a new
way, you might think about themagician archetype.
Or you might think about, likethe four of wands right, you
might think about momentum andstructure and intentionality, as
well as dreaming really big andfeeling really well-resourced,
and then you might decide thatyou want to work with the
magician or with the four ofwands, or with strength, perhaps
(17:40):
right, you could journal withthose cards, you could meditate
with those cards, you couldreally think about what those
cards might have to offer to youas advice and medicine in this
particular moment.
So I find this to be a reallysupportive exercise when
readings feel like too much, butI still want to work with my
cards in a really tangible way.
The last thing that I just haveto mention, because of who I am
(18:01):
as a person, is journaling.
I know I'm a broken recordabout journaling, but there are
just so many ways to use thistechnique and so many ways that
it can be useful.
Especially when emotions areheavy.
Journaling does not have to becomplete sentences or beautiful
words.
It doesn't have to be somethingthat anyone else sees.
It doesn't even have to makesense to you or to anyone else.
(18:22):
All journaling has to be, Ithink, is, honest.
I would encourage you to trywriting down keywords or bullet
points or sentence fragments,making space for doodles,
writing down song lyrics orpieces of poetry or movie quotes
literally whatever.
Sometimes just giving yourselfspace to put your feelings down
on a page, whether that'sconnected with tarot or not, can
(18:44):
just be really therapeutic andhelpful.
It can be nice to just have itlive somewhere that's not in
your body.
If you want to use tarot forthis, there's a lot of different
ways to do tarot journaling,but, particularly when emotions
are heavy, I like to go throughthe archetypes, both the major
arcana, like Trump archetypes,as well as the minor arcana
archetypes, which are what Iconsider the court cards, and
(19:06):
find one that really representsthe kind of energy that I want
to have.
Right, if I'm feeling like mycreativity is really flailing or
floundering.
If I feel like I can't look atsomething and have a million
ideas, I might pick a card fromthe suit of wands.
Right, or, again, the magician,if I'm feeling like I'm really
struggling to trust myself orknow who I am, I'm definitely
(19:28):
going to pull out the priestessor the king of cups, right.
And if I just want to be braveand do something really badass,
I might pick one of the knights,right.
They're really courageous to me, they feel like they are really
willing to take some risks andmake some bold moves.
And then I like to journalabout that, about what it might
look like for me to reallyembody that energy, how I could
practically step into thatenergy or embrace that energy in
(19:52):
my life.
In other words, what it wouldlook like if that archetype was
me for a day, what they might doin my shoes, and then that
gives me some action items andsome feelings to sort through.
That for me feel really helpful.
But you can also pair journalingwith basically anything else,
right.
You can journal about a tarotreading that you've done, about
that medicine exercise that Ijust shared, about a card that
(20:14):
perhaps keeps coming up for you,literally whatever you like and
whatever is going to feel good.
This episode is going a littlebit long, but I want to share
some additional resources withyou before I go, because I have
a lot of resources, specificallyon grief as well as on hope.
Again, I'm going to puteverything into the show notes
here, but I do have a brand newjournaling workbook.
I've just released it and it'salready really getting beautiful
(20:36):
, lovely reviews from the peoplewho purchased it right away.
So I highly recommend that ifyou want to use tarot and
journaling, or if you feeloverwhelmed and you want some
support.
You want a framework that youcan follow, a workbook that you
can just move your way through.
I also have an upcomingarchetype medicine lecture that
is going to talk you throughmore in-depth ways of working
(20:56):
with different archetypes andusing them to support yourself
through challenging times.
I am running an imaginationbased course on the magician,
which is really all aboutlearning to expand your
imagination, to get morecreative with your problem
solving and to really activate asense of hope within yourself.
And I'm also open for readingsagain, which means that you can
work with me one-on-one if you'dlike, for a terror reading
(21:19):
about finding hope in the dark,for working with a particular
archetype, or I do customreadings, and we can talk about
anything you like.
Please, if you're struggling,check out some of these
resources.
I have things at a lot ofdifferent price points to try
and give you the support thatyou need.
This episode is already filledwith tips and tricks, so instead
of ending with another one, Ijust want to say I know that
(21:40):
things are impossibly hard anddark and scary right now.
I'm feeling it.
I'm sure you're feeling it too.
I really want to encourage younot to deny your grief, but to
also remind you that you don'thave to lose yourself in it
either.
There are absolutely ways tosit in that threshold of grief
and hope and hold space for bothsimultaneously.
(22:02):
Seeking out hope, activatingyour imagination, finding ways
to take care of yourself doesn'tmean you're not grieving, but
rest and pleasure and comfortare necessary for you to be able
to keep fighting.
Okay, please, don't feel guiltyfor trying to take care of
yourself in these impossibletimes.
Don't stop fighting, but don'tdeny yourself the things that
(22:22):
you need to survive as a humanbeing either.
Again, I do think that tarotcan be a really powerful
companion tool for thesepractices, but I also just
really want to encourage you tofind outlets for your emotions,
to share your feelings withothers and be in community with
people who share your values,and also to use whatever tools
you have at your disposal totake care of yourself and the
(22:44):
people that you love.
That is all I have for youtoday, but, as always, thank you
so much for spending this timewith me, sending you a lot of
love and safety, and I'll beback again soon with more Card
Talk.
Card Talk episodes are alwaysfree for everyone to enjoy, so
if you love what you hear,please consider supporting the
podcast by subscribing,recommending Card Talk to a
(23:06):
friend or donating to help withproduction costs.
You can find episodetranscripts.
Learn more about me productioncosts.
You can find episodetranscripts.
Learn more about me and join mysignature Tarot Conservatory
membership program through mywebsite, 3amtarotcom.
Thanks for listening and seeyou next time.
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