September 26, 2024 • 17 mins
Today on CARD TALK, I’ll cover:
-the great debate between traditional & intuitive card meanings
-how i define "traditional" and "intuitive"
-why i prefer the term "standardized" meanings
-where my own meanings come from
Tarot history resources:
Everything by tarot scholars Mary K. Greer, Rachel Pollack, and Robert M. Place
Women of Tarot by Cat Willett
78 Acts of Liberation by Lane Smith
Shuffling Through History mini-series by the In Search of Tarot podcast
For support in exploring both standardized and personal meanings, check out the 3am.tarot conservatory.
For more on Meg, check out 3amtarot.com, and order your copy of Finding the Fool through Bookshop.org or your favorite local bookstore.
Find episode transcripts and more over on the CARD TALK website. And as a special thank you for CARD TALK listeners, click here to download a completely free, exclusive workbook for building your best personal tarot practice.
Love what you’re hearing? Support the pod with a one-time donation or recurring subscription, and please subscribe, review, and share with a friend or two!
CARD TALK is written, edited, and produced by Meg Jones Wall of 3am.tarot. Theme music created by PaulYudin.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
I'm Meg Jones-Wall and this is Card Talk, a mini
podcast for tarot basics andevergreen insights.
I'm here to help you build atarot practice that works for
you.
Glad you're here.
Glad you're here.
In today's episode, we aregoing to be talking about
traditional versus intuitivemeanings for your tarot cards,
(00:32):
and this is the first in what'sgoing to be a small group of
episodes where I unpackdifferent ways that you can make
meanings from your cards.
Now, before we get into thistopic, I need you to know that I
am using just the hugest airquotes around both of these
words, around traditional andaround intuitive, not because
these words don't mean anythingthey absolutely do but because
(00:52):
in this particular debate, theseterms get really flattened out
and narrowed.
I want to go ahead and definethese terms so that you know
what I mean by them, but pleaseknow that there might be other
people in this conversation thatdefine these words very
differently than me, and this isa conversation that comes up a
lot in tarot spaces, on socialmedia, in classes and books and
(01:12):
just in general conversation.
I, as ever, I'm just one personoffering my perspective on this
debate in this conversation,because, even if the way that
this conversation getssimplified and argued over on
social media kind of annoys me.
I do think that it's reallyimportant to talk about and
clarify Now.
I'll probably say this a coupledifferent times throughout the
episode, but I want to be clearhere that, as far as I know,
(01:35):
most of the tarot readers that Ipractice with and am in
reciprocal community with andget readings from, don't even
really engage in this debate.
It's kind of a false binary, andmost of us use both of these
methodologies as part of ourpractice, both in personal
readings and in client work, aswell as in teaching and the
creation of resources.
If you read my book Finding theFool, you will absolutely see
(01:57):
some standardized meaningssprinkled throughout there,
right there on the pages, butthey're going to be alongside my
own personal meanings andinterpretations right there on
the pages, but they're going tobe alongside my own personal
meanings and interpretations.
Most of us really do use bothand don't differentiate between
traditional and intuitivemeanings.
It all gets to be part of thepractice.
However, the folks who feelstrongly about this binary, who
fall on one side or the other,feel very strongly about it, and
(02:20):
so if you are someone who isrelatively new to tarot and
you're also someone who is, like, extremely online.
You will probably see thisdebate happening at some point
on social media or on forums orwhatever, and I just don't want
you to have your spiritual shitrocked because of some mean girl
on threads who isn'tparticularly speaking with a lot
of nuance.
Again, I think this debate iskind of bullshit, because I
(02:41):
think this binary is kind ofbullshit.
But working through andthinking about these ideas on
your own it can be a reallyhelpful aspect of your practice
and can help you clarify whereyour tarot meanings have come
from, why you feel certain waysabout your cards and how you can
work those cards moreintentionally and look if you
feel that you fit really firmlyinto one of these camps or you
(03:03):
yourself have a really strongopinion about this, that's
absolutely fine.
Your practice is your own andthe language that you use to
define your practice is alsoyour own.
But it's helpful to know whatother people might mean by these
terms or what they might betalking about when they use
these terms.
So, to the best of my ability,I'm going to offer my own
understanding of how these termsare used as a jumping off point
(03:26):
to start this conversation.
Again, other people mightdefine these words a little bit
differently, but this is what Ihave observed from watching
people have this conversation invarious places over the years.
Let's start by talking about theword traditional.
Now, straight off the top, theword traditional can be kind of
loaded because it implieshistory study and established
(03:47):
structure, but it's notparticularly specific.
When the word traditional isused in a tarot context, it can
mean a couple of differentthings, which can be helpful,
but it's also a little bitconfusing and usually requires
some additional questioning orinterrogation so that everyone
gets to be on the same page.
Now, for some folks, when theyuse the word traditional to talk
(04:10):
about decks or meanings,they're talking about decks
specifically from about ahundred years ago, or decks that
are particularly associatedwith the Order of Golden Dawn.
This would be theRider-Waite-Smith deck and the
Thoth deck, which were bothpublished in the early 1900s or
mid 1900s in the case of theThoth deck.
Now there's a lot of writingand study around these decks,
particularly theRider-Waite-Smith, and
(04:36):
additionally, if you do a kindof general Google search or web
search on the internet, or ifyou flip to a generic tarot book
or little white book, you'reprobably going to see writing
that aligns with the meaningsthat are associated with the
Rider-Waite-Smith.
In other words, a lot of themost common or popular keywords
and definitions andcorrespondences that you're
going to see replicated andrepeated and shared over and
over are taken from writingsabout the Rider-Waite-Smith, as
(04:59):
well as Rider-Waite-Smithimagery, symbolism and
literature.
I asked a question on socialmedia the other day, around
where people get their meanings,and someone said I go straight
to the source and then talkedabout the Rider-Waite-Smith deck
.
So it's important to know thatwhen people say traditional,
they often are pointing to thesedecks that are about a hundred
years old, but tarot is mucholder than that, and so there's
(05:22):
a whole other group of peoplewho, when they use the word
traditional, are actually goingto be referring to Marseille
meanings which are more than ahundred years older than the
Rider-Waite-Smith and Thothdecks.
Of course, there's an argumentthat the Marseille meanings are
even more traditional becausethey're even older, but you're
going to find different peopleusing the word traditional to
refer to different standardizeddecks and popular decks.
(05:45):
Now, regardless of which deckor source this tradition is
coming from or is referred to oris meant to be from, these are
often the commonly collectivelyaccepted or commonly shared
definitions of the cards.
As I said, this includes thekeywords, the correspondences
and the meanings.
So, for example, if you typetarot emperor meaning into your
(06:07):
web browser search, you'relikely going to find a lot of
websites listing the same kindsof words and ideas authority,
discipline, leadership,patriarchy, control, et cetera.
Now you can absolutely digdeeper and find additional
layers of meaning and additionalkeywords, as well as
correspondences and other waysof viewing this archetype, but
(06:28):
these are going to be the tophits right, and so, for a lot of
people, these would beconsidered the traditional
meanings, especially becausethey are so commonly replicated
and repeated in resources andbooks, even ones that are
getting published today.
Now, I'm using the wordtraditional in this episode
because that's the language thatis commonly used when I see
this conversation happening.
But in general, when we'retalking about these kinds of
(06:49):
meanings, these really commonlyrepeated meanings, I tend to use
the word standardized ratherthan traditional.
For me, standardized seems alittle bit more specific, even
though it's not pointing to aparticular tradition, but it
kind of acknowledges the factthat there are meanings that are
really regularly replicated.
However, if you prefer the wordtraditional, that's completely
(07:11):
fine too, and in my experience,most people are going to know
what you're referring to.
You just might have to bespecific about whether or not
you're talking aboutRider-Waite-Smith meanings,
thoth meanings, marseillemeanings or something else.
I also want to quickly justdefine the term intuitive when
people are using it in thisparticular conversation.
Now, when people say thatthey're intuitive tarot readers
(07:31):
or that their meanings for thecards are based in intuition,
they typically seem to bereferring to a genre of tarot
reader who throws out theguidebook that comes with their
deck, who's not as familiar withhistory and who creates their
own meanings based purely onemotional, spiritual and
psychological reactions to eachcard.
So, really, the TLDR here isthat this is a person who is
(07:54):
making their own meanings orcreating their own meanings, or
discovering their own meanings,or discovering their own
meanings from the cards based onwhat they see in the imagery
and based on what they feel, inother words, based on what their
intuition is sharing with themwhen they take time to work with
a specific card.
Now, this might sound reallysimple and really easy to do,
but I think that it is worthnoting that a lot of the imagery
(08:16):
in tarot decks, especially ifit's a deck based off of
Rider-Waite-Smith imagery arestill going to naturally point
you towards certain meanings.
Right, and so even if someonehas a long established practice
based in their own intuitivemeanings, or claims that they
use only intuitive meanings andhave, like, never read a book
about tarot or don't knowanything about the history and
structure of tarot, if they'reusing a Rider Waite-Smith style
(08:39):
deck, they might still interpretthat card in a similar way to
someone who's relying on morestandardized keywords or who has
done a lot of study into thesymbolism and history of the
tarot.
Of course, that doesn't meanthat the person who created
these intuitive meanings islying or is confused, but it
does mean that you might stillsee similarities between someone
(09:00):
who is reading in an intuitivestyle and someone who is very
familiar with the traditions oftarot history.
But intuitive meanings can alsorefer to meanings that might be
more personal to the reader.
This could be when someonetakes the time to really pay
attention to how theirexperiences might be mirrored in
these cards or how this cardmight speak to them personally,
(09:21):
based on their own history,personality, et cetera, and
outside of meanings.
I also just want to acknowledgethat sometimes, when people say
they're an intuitive tarotreader, they actually mean
something different.
They're talking about the factthat the cards might be
communicating with them beyondwhat's depicted in the imagery
or whatever deck they're usingor whatever traditions they're
familiar with.
This could be using the cardsin an intuitive way or
(09:44):
connecting with psychic gifts,using observation and
conversation with the querent,et cetera.
Right, because sometimes we aregoing to take the card in a
different direction than wemight normally, based on a
particular reading or the cardthat shows up in a certain
position in a spread, or thequerent and the question.
Right, the cards are stillliving, breathing things, and
sometimes they're going to beoffering us information that
(10:06):
might feel a little bitdifferent than what the card
might typically mean.
Now, this conversation tends toget quite heated, especially
when you have tarot teachers orpeople who are well-known in the
tarot sphere involved, and Ithink part of that is because
tarot is an established toolwith a real history and a real
structure.
There are a lot of tools fordivination, there are lots of
(10:29):
different ways that we caninteract with the greater than
human world, but tarot has aspecific system built into it
and does have standardizedmeanings, whether you choose to
really lean on them or not, andI've definitely seen a number of
tarot teachers get kind ofheated or upset when people tell
them that they don't need toknow anything about tarot's
(10:50):
history or the standardizedmeanings of the cards.
I have seen the argument if youdon't want to learn the history
of tarot or you don't careabout the standardized meanings
of the tarot, you shouldn't beusing tarot cards, and I don't,
frankly, really know that.
I agree with that, but Iunderstand where they're coming
from.
I will say that I do place alot of value on personal
intuition and I really stronglybelieve that building personal
(11:12):
meanings for the cards is areally powerful way to deepen
your reading skills, and I alsothink that there's something to
be said for knowing about thetool you're using, even when
it's just the basics.
My own tarot teaching styleabsolutely includes recommending
that folks familiarizethemselves with basic
correspondences so that they canrecognize where these
standardized meanings come fromand decide how much they really
(11:36):
want to use them.
But I always think moreknowledge is going to be better,
and so generally I fall on theside of having the foundation of
the standardized meanings inyour pocket and being aware of
them and understanding wherethese meanings have come from,
based on the correspondencesthat are built into the cards,
but also having a really strongrelationship with the cards
(11:57):
themselves and knowing how tolayer personal meanings on top
of those standardized meaningsto give yourself lots of options
when working with the tarot.
And again, in my experience,that's how a lot of other
professional tarot readersoperate.
I don't think there's any rightor wrong way to do this, and I
think that standardized oftengets glossed over or used as an
insult for simple or boring orimpersonal.
(12:21):
Standardized meanings are notsimple.
I personally have gotten plentyof tarot readings from folks
who stick almost entirely withthe Rider-Waite-Smith meanings
and primarily utilize thosemeanings in their readings, and
those readings were amazing.
They were incredibly accurate,supportive, deep, personal and
nourishing.
Just because someone's usingpopular, common or standardized
(12:42):
meanings for their cards doesn'tmean they're a beginner and it
certainly doesn't mean thattheir readings are going to be
impersonal or basic.
And, in the same way, intuitiveis not shorthand for more
authentic or more personal ormore magical.
Just because someone didn'tlearn the tarot using a little
white book or a guidebook orstudying traditional meanings,
(13:04):
it doesn't automatically maketheir interpretations better or
more true or more interesting ormore legitimate.
Okay.
It just means that they'regoing outside of standardized
meanings and traditions in orderto use the tarot in their own
way, and that's just a differentway of reading.
It's not better or worse thanusing standardized meanings.
Now, as I said at the beginning,your tarot practice is entirely
(13:25):
up to you.
Whether you spend years andyears studying standardized
meanings, tarot traditions, theoldest decks around and the
various writings on the cardsthat have been offered
throughout history, or you throwout the guidebook entirely and
just rely purely on your ownintuition and observation to
develop meanings.
That gets to be a central partof your practice.
(13:47):
But I think knowing how to namethat, being conscientious and
aware that that is your practiceand that that's where your
meanings have come from, andalso having the language to
explain where your card meetingscome from, is really important,
whether you're just reading foryourself, reading for other
people or eventually thinkingabout going pro and reading for
clients.
I'm not going to tell you whichone you should do, so my tip
(14:09):
for this episode is do both Ifyou want to.
I do.
A lot of us do.
I don't want you to get hung upon social media debates or
choosing a side or feeling likeyou can only use traditional
meanings or intuitive meaningsor different language that
completely feels separate fromboth of these binaries.
If you take courses or buyresources from me, you will
(14:30):
absolutely find a blend ofstandardized meanings from
specifically from Marseillestyle correspondences, which are
numerology and elementalcorrespondences.
But you'll also see a lot ofencouragement for me to spend
time with the cards and developmeanings that feel really
personal for you.
I think this is more fun toread that way when we have
personal connections toindividual cards, and I also
(14:51):
think personally that it givesricher readings.
Again, this is a debate onsocial media and in books and in
all kinds of places that tendsto bring out a lot of strong
language and strong opinions andheated feelings.
So if you're just gettingstarted with the cards and feel
overwhelmed, I really encourageyou to just pace yourself, to
not try to learn too much atonce, to not feel like you have
(15:11):
to memorize every traditionthat's ever been out there for
tarot before you read, and alsoto try incorporating both
practices into your studies.
You might find that when youstart learning more about tarot
history or learning more aboutthe ways that card meanings were
developed, you get reallyexcited and want to keep digging
.
Or you might find that as youstart reading about these
standardized meanings or digginginto the correspondences, you
(15:34):
don't really like them and youwant to branch out or try a
different method for learning.
It's literally fine.
It gets to be your practice andyou get to decide what feels
the best for you.
To help you out, I am going todrop some of my favorite tarot
history resources into the shownotes both a couple of just
creators and teachers andscholars whose general work is
really supportive, as well astwo new books that came out in
(15:56):
2024 that I think areparticularly helpful.
And if you're interested inlearning more about
correspondences like numerology,or if you want help in making
your own personal tarot meanings, I'm going to drop some
resources for that in the shownotes as well.
Don't forget that I have acompletely free workbook
resources available just to cardtalk listeners, and you can
(16:16):
find that through the show notesas well.
We've got a couple moreepisodes on tarot card meanings
and deepening your practice onthe docket, but that's all I
have for you right now.
So, as always, thank you forjoining me for this episode of
card talk and I'll see you soon.
Card talk episodes are alwaysfree for everyone to enjoy, so
if you love what you hear.
Please consider supporting thepodcast by subscribing,
(16:38):
recommending Card, talk to afriend or two or donating to
help with production costs.
You can find episodetranscripts.
Learn more about me and join mysignature Tarot Conservatory
membership program through mywebsite, 3amtarotcom.
Thanks for listening and seeyou next time.
I'm Meg Jones-Wall and this is Card Talk, a mini
podcast for tarot basics andevergreen insights.
I'm here to help you build atarot practice that works for
you.
Glad you're here.
Glad you're here.
In today's episode, we aregoing to be talking about
traditional versus intuitivemeanings for your tarot cards,
(00:32):
and this is the first in what'sgoing to be a small group of
episodes where I unpackdifferent ways that you can make
meanings from your cards.
Now, before we get into thistopic, I need you to know that I
am using just the hugest airquotes around both of these
words, around traditional andaround intuitive, not because
these words don't mean anythingthey absolutely do but because
(00:52):
in this particular debate, theseterms get really flattened out
and narrowed.
I want to go ahead and definethese terms so that you know
what I mean by them, but pleaseknow that there might be other
people in this conversation thatdefine these words very
differently than me, and this isa conversation that comes up a
lot in tarot spaces, on socialmedia, in classes and books and
(01:12):
just in general conversation.
I, as ever, I'm just one personoffering my perspective on this
debate in this conversation,because, even if the way that
this conversation getssimplified and argued over on
social media kind of annoys me.
I do think that it's reallyimportant to talk about and
clarify Now.
I'll probably say this a coupledifferent times throughout the
episode, but I want to be clearhere that, as far as I know,
(01:35):
most of the tarot readers that Ipractice with and am in
reciprocal community with andget readings from, don't even
really engage in this debate.
It's kind of a false binary, andmost of us use both of these
methodologies as part of ourpractice, both in personal
readings and in client work, aswell as in teaching and the
creation of resources.
If you read my book Finding theFool, you will absolutely see
(01:57):
some standardized meaningssprinkled throughout there,
right there on the pages, butthey're going to be alongside my
own personal meanings andinterpretations right there on
the pages, but they're going tobe alongside my own personal
meanings and interpretations.
Most of us really do use bothand don't differentiate between
traditional and intuitivemeanings.
It all gets to be part of thepractice.
However, the folks who feelstrongly about this binary, who
fall on one side or the other,feel very strongly about it, and
(02:20):
so if you are someone who isrelatively new to tarot and
you're also someone who is, like, extremely online.
You will probably see thisdebate happening at some point
on social media or on forums orwhatever, and I just don't want
you to have your spiritual shitrocked because of some mean girl
on threads who isn'tparticularly speaking with a lot
of nuance.
Again, I think this debate iskind of bullshit, because I
(02:41):
think this binary is kind ofbullshit.
But working through andthinking about these ideas on
your own it can be a reallyhelpful aspect of your practice
and can help you clarify whereyour tarot meanings have come
from, why you feel certain waysabout your cards and how you can
work those cards moreintentionally and look if you
feel that you fit really firmlyinto one of these camps or you
(03:03):
yourself have a really strongopinion about this, that's
absolutely fine.
Your practice is your own andthe language that you use to
define your practice is alsoyour own.
But it's helpful to know whatother people might mean by these
terms or what they might betalking about when they use
these terms.
So, to the best of my ability,I'm going to offer my own
understanding of how these termsare used as a jumping off point
(03:26):
to start this conversation.
Again, other people mightdefine these words a little bit
differently, but this is what Ihave observed from watching
people have this conversation invarious places over the years.
Let's start by talking about theword traditional.
Now, straight off the top, theword traditional can be kind of
loaded because it implieshistory study and established
(03:47):
structure, but it's notparticularly specific.
When the word traditional isused in a tarot context, it can
mean a couple of differentthings, which can be helpful,
but it's also a little bitconfusing and usually requires
some additional questioning orinterrogation so that everyone
gets to be on the same page.
Now, for some folks, when theyuse the word traditional to talk
(04:10):
about decks or meanings,they're talking about decks
specifically from about ahundred years ago, or decks that
are particularly associatedwith the Order of Golden Dawn.
This would be theRider-Waite-Smith deck and the
Thoth deck, which were bothpublished in the early 1900s or
mid 1900s in the case of theThoth deck.
Now there's a lot of writingand study around these decks,
particularly theRider-Waite-Smith, and
(04:36):
additionally, if you do a kindof general Google search or web
search on the internet, or ifyou flip to a generic tarot book
or little white book, you'reprobably going to see writing
that aligns with the meaningsthat are associated with the
Rider-Waite-Smith.
In other words, a lot of themost common or popular keywords
and definitions andcorrespondences that you're
going to see replicated andrepeated and shared over and
over are taken from writingsabout the Rider-Waite-Smith, as
(04:59):
well as Rider-Waite-Smithimagery, symbolism and
literature.
I asked a question on socialmedia the other day, around
where people get their meanings,and someone said I go straight
to the source and then talkedabout the Rider-Waite-Smith deck
.
So it's important to know thatwhen people say traditional,
they often are pointing to thesedecks that are about a hundred
years old, but tarot is mucholder than that, and so there's
(05:22):
a whole other group of peoplewho, when they use the word
traditional, are actually goingto be referring to Marseille
meanings which are more than ahundred years older than the
Rider-Waite-Smith and Thothdecks.
Of course, there's an argumentthat the Marseille meanings are
even more traditional becausethey're even older, but you're
going to find different peopleusing the word traditional to
refer to different standardizeddecks and popular decks.
(05:45):
Now, regardless of which deckor source this tradition is
coming from or is referred to oris meant to be from, these are
often the commonly collectivelyaccepted or commonly shared
definitions of the cards.
As I said, this includes thekeywords, the correspondences
and the meanings.
So, for example, if you typetarot emperor meaning into your
(06:07):
web browser search, you'relikely going to find a lot of
websites listing the same kindsof words and ideas authority,
discipline, leadership,patriarchy, control, et cetera.
Now you can absolutely digdeeper and find additional
layers of meaning and additionalkeywords, as well as
correspondences and other waysof viewing this archetype, but
(06:28):
these are going to be the tophits right, and so, for a lot of
people, these would beconsidered the traditional
meanings, especially becausethey are so commonly replicated
and repeated in resources andbooks, even ones that are
getting published today.
Now, I'm using the wordtraditional in this episode
because that's the language thatis commonly used when I see
this conversation happening.
But in general, when we'retalking about these kinds of
(06:49):
meanings, these really commonlyrepeated meanings, I tend to use
the word standardized ratherthan traditional.
For me, standardized seems alittle bit more specific, even
though it's not pointing to aparticular tradition, but it
kind of acknowledges the factthat there are meanings that are
really regularly replicated.
However, if you prefer the wordtraditional, that's completely
(07:11):
fine too, and in my experience,most people are going to know
what you're referring to.
You just might have to bespecific about whether or not
you're talking aboutRider-Waite-Smith meanings,
thoth meanings, marseillemeanings or something else.
I also want to quickly justdefine the term intuitive when
people are using it in thisparticular conversation.
Now, when people say thatthey're intuitive tarot readers
(07:31):
or that their meanings for thecards are based in intuition,
they typically seem to bereferring to a genre of tarot
reader who throws out theguidebook that comes with their
deck, who's not as familiar withhistory and who creates their
own meanings based purely onemotional, spiritual and
psychological reactions to eachcard.
So, really, the TLDR here isthat this is a person who is
(07:54):
making their own meanings orcreating their own meanings, or
discovering their own meanings,or discovering their own
meanings from the cards based onwhat they see in the imagery
and based on what they feel, inother words, based on what their
intuition is sharing with themwhen they take time to work with
a specific card.
Now, this might sound reallysimple and really easy to do,
but I think that it is worthnoting that a lot of the imagery
(08:16):
in tarot decks, especially ifit's a deck based off of
Rider-Waite-Smith imagery arestill going to naturally point
you towards certain meanings.
Right, and so even if someonehas a long established practice
based in their own intuitivemeanings, or claims that they
use only intuitive meanings andhave, like, never read a book
about tarot or don't knowanything about the history and
structure of tarot, if they'reusing a Rider Waite-Smith style
(08:39):
deck, they might still interpretthat card in a similar way to
someone who's relying on morestandardized keywords or who has
done a lot of study into thesymbolism and history of the
tarot.
Of course, that doesn't meanthat the person who created
these intuitive meanings islying or is confused, but it
does mean that you might stillsee similarities between someone
(09:00):
who is reading in an intuitivestyle and someone who is very
familiar with the traditions oftarot history.
But intuitive meanings can alsorefer to meanings that might be
more personal to the reader.
This could be when someonetakes the time to really pay
attention to how theirexperiences might be mirrored in
these cards or how this cardmight speak to them personally,
(09:21):
based on their own history,personality, et cetera, and
outside of meanings.
I also just want to acknowledgethat sometimes, when people say
they're an intuitive tarotreader, they actually mean
something different.
They're talking about the factthat the cards might be
communicating with them beyondwhat's depicted in the imagery
or whatever deck they're usingor whatever traditions they're
familiar with.
This could be using the cardsin an intuitive way or
(09:44):
connecting with psychic gifts,using observation and
conversation with the querent,et cetera.
Right, because sometimes we aregoing to take the card in a
different direction than wemight normally, based on a
particular reading or the cardthat shows up in a certain
position in a spread, or thequerent and the question.
Right, the cards are stillliving, breathing things, and
sometimes they're going to beoffering us information that
(10:06):
might feel a little bitdifferent than what the card
might typically mean.
Now, this conversation tends toget quite heated, especially
when you have tarot teachers orpeople who are well-known in the
tarot sphere involved, and Ithink part of that is because
tarot is an established toolwith a real history and a real
structure.
There are a lot of tools fordivination, there are lots of
(10:29):
different ways that we caninteract with the greater than
human world, but tarot has aspecific system built into it
and does have standardizedmeanings, whether you choose to
really lean on them or not, andI've definitely seen a number of
tarot teachers get kind ofheated or upset when people tell
them that they don't need toknow anything about tarot's
(10:50):
history or the standardizedmeanings of the cards.
I have seen the argument if youdon't want to learn the history
of tarot or you don't careabout the standardized meanings
of the tarot, you shouldn't beusing tarot cards, and I don't,
frankly, really know that.
I agree with that, but Iunderstand where they're coming
from.
I will say that I do place alot of value on personal
intuition and I really stronglybelieve that building personal
(11:12):
meanings for the cards is areally powerful way to deepen
your reading skills, and I alsothink that there's something to
be said for knowing about thetool you're using, even when
it's just the basics.
My own tarot teaching styleabsolutely includes recommending
that folks familiarizethemselves with basic
correspondences so that they canrecognize where these
standardized meanings come fromand decide how much they really
(11:36):
want to use them.
But I always think moreknowledge is going to be better,
and so generally I fall on theside of having the foundation of
the standardized meanings inyour pocket and being aware of
them and understanding wherethese meanings have come from,
based on the correspondencesthat are built into the cards,
but also having a really strongrelationship with the cards
(11:57):
themselves and knowing how tolayer personal meanings on top
of those standardized meaningsto give yourself lots of options
when working with the tarot.
And again, in my experience,that's how a lot of other
professional tarot readersoperate.
I don't think there's any rightor wrong way to do this, and I
think that standardized oftengets glossed over or used as an
insult for simple or boring orimpersonal.
(12:21):
Standardized meanings are notsimple.
I personally have gotten plentyof tarot readings from folks
who stick almost entirely withthe Rider-Waite-Smith meanings
and primarily utilize thosemeanings in their readings, and
those readings were amazing.
They were incredibly accurate,supportive, deep, personal and
nourishing.
Just because someone's usingpopular, common or standardized
(12:42):
meanings for their cards doesn'tmean they're a beginner and it
certainly doesn't mean thattheir readings are going to be
impersonal or basic.
And, in the same way, intuitiveis not shorthand for more
authentic or more personal ormore magical.
Just because someone didn'tlearn the tarot using a little
white book or a guidebook orstudying traditional meanings,
(13:04):
it doesn't automatically maketheir interpretations better or
more true or more interesting ormore legitimate.
Okay.
It just means that they'regoing outside of standardized
meanings and traditions in orderto use the tarot in their own
way, and that's just a differentway of reading.
It's not better or worse thanusing standardized meanings.
Now, as I said at the beginning,your tarot practice is entirely
(13:25):
up to you.
Whether you spend years andyears studying standardized
meanings, tarot traditions, theoldest decks around and the
various writings on the cardsthat have been offered
throughout history, or you throwout the guidebook entirely and
just rely purely on your ownintuition and observation to
develop meanings.
That gets to be a central partof your practice.
(13:47):
But I think knowing how to namethat, being conscientious and
aware that that is your practiceand that that's where your
meanings have come from, andalso having the language to
explain where your card meetingscome from, is really important,
whether you're just reading foryourself, reading for other
people or eventually thinkingabout going pro and reading for
clients.
I'm not going to tell you whichone you should do, so my tip
(14:09):
for this episode is do both Ifyou want to.
I do.
A lot of us do.
I don't want you to get hung upon social media debates or
choosing a side or feeling likeyou can only use traditional
meanings or intuitive meaningsor different language that
completely feels separate fromboth of these binaries.
If you take courses or buyresources from me, you will
(14:30):
absolutely find a blend ofstandardized meanings from
specifically from Marseillestyle correspondences, which are
numerology and elementalcorrespondences.
But you'll also see a lot ofencouragement for me to spend
time with the cards and developmeanings that feel really
personal for you.
I think this is more fun toread that way when we have
personal connections toindividual cards, and I also
(14:51):
think personally that it givesricher readings.
Again, this is a debate onsocial media and in books and in
all kinds of places that tendsto bring out a lot of strong
language and strong opinions andheated feelings.
So if you're just gettingstarted with the cards and feel
overwhelmed, I really encourageyou to just pace yourself, to
not try to learn too much atonce, to not feel like you have
(15:11):
to memorize every traditionthat's ever been out there for
tarot before you read, and alsoto try incorporating both
practices into your studies.
You might find that when youstart learning more about tarot
history or learning more aboutthe ways that card meanings were
developed, you get reallyexcited and want to keep digging
.
Or you might find that as youstart reading about these
standardized meanings or digginginto the correspondences, you
(15:34):
don't really like them and youwant to branch out or try a
different method for learning.
It's literally fine.
It gets to be your practice andyou get to decide what feels
the best for you.
To help you out, I am going todrop some of my favorite tarot
history resources into the shownotes both a couple of just
creators and teachers andscholars whose general work is
really supportive, as well astwo new books that came out in
(15:56):
2024 that I think areparticularly helpful.
And if you're interested inlearning more about
correspondences like numerology,or if you want help in making
your own personal tarot meanings, I'm going to drop some
resources for that in the shownotes as well.
Don't forget that I have acompletely free workbook
resources available just to cardtalk listeners, and you can
(16:16):
find that through the show notesas well.
We've got a couple moreepisodes on tarot card meanings
and deepening your practice onthe docket, but that's all I
have for you right now.
So, as always, thank you forjoining me for this episode of
card talk and I'll see you soon.
Card talk episodes are alwaysfree for everyone to enjoy, so
if you love what you hear.
Please consider supporting thepodcast by subscribing,
(16:38):
recommending Card, talk to afriend or two or donating to
help with production costs.
You can find episodetranscripts.
Learn more about me and join mysignature Tarot Conservatory
membership program through mywebsite, 3amtarotcom.
Thanks for listening and seeyou next time.
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