September 16, 2024 • 39 mins
Ever wondered how public health experts manage crises from behind the scenes? Join us as we sit down with Maleeka Jamil Glover, an esteemed epidemiologist and executive director of WCAPS, who shares her incredible journey from the CDC trenches to leading a nonprofit that empowers women of color. With over two decades of experience navigating public health emergencies like Hurricane Katrina and COVID-19, Maleeka offers a rare glimpse into the complexities of managing vulnerable populations during disasters. Her unique perspective on cardiovascular epidemiology and her passion for global health will leave you inspired and informed.
Maleeka takes us through the logistical and emotional hurdles faced by healthcare workers and public health officials during COVID-19. From standardizing data collection across states to the emotional toll on frontline workers, she provides an insider's look at the immense efforts required to keep the nation safe. Balancing her dual roles at the CDC and WCAPS, Maleeka's commitment to public health and policy change shines through, offering valuable lessons on resilience and dedication.
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The thoughts, views, and opinions expressed on Career Cheat Code are those of the individual guests and do not necessarily reflect those of the host, affiliated organizations & employers. This podcast is intended for informational and inspirational purposes, highlighting the guests and their unique career journeys. We hope these stories inspire you to chase your purpose, define success on your own terms & take the next step in your career.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
My dad sent me a bunch of books about you know
being how to be a good ED andyou know interactions with the
board and all of those kinds ofthings and raising money for
nonprofits.
And it wasn't until about aweek later that it hit me that I
was like hold on, wait a minute.
My dad was actually an ED and Ididn't realize that that was
(00:20):
his job title because he wasthat when I was a kid so I just
knew he worked at a nonprofit.
I didn't, you know, I knew heran it but I really didn't think
about what his job title wasand so it didn't hit me till he
sent me all these books and itdidn't.
Really.
It didn't occur to me at firstbecause my dad has a huge
library, always has the wholetime.
You know as much as I've been akid.
He always had lots and lotsthese books.
(00:41):
But then I thought about it.
I was like, wait a minute.
He wore an ED when I wasgrowing up.
This is absolutely crazy.
It was really enjoyable to makethat connection again as well.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
Welcome to Career Cheat Code.
In this podcast, you'll hearhow everyday people impact the
world through their careers.
Learn about their journey,career hacks and obstacles along
the way.
Whether you're already havingthe impact you want or are
searching for it, this is thepodcast for you.
All right, malika, welcome tothe show.
Thank you for having me.
I appreciate you taking thetime to connect today.
You know, let's not waste amoment.
(01:11):
Let's dive right in and tellthe world what you do for a
living.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
So I am an epidemiologist, I am a social
epidemiologist, specificallywith a background in
cardiovascular epidemiology, andalso I am the executive
director of a nonprofit.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
Wow, so you have two roles.
What does that mean?
How are you the executivedirector of a nonprofit and what
does the nonprofit do?
And what does it mean to be anepidemiologist?
Speaker 1 (01:35):
Yes, absolutely so.
Epidemiology unlike a lot ofpeople think, skin epidemiology
focuses on epidemics, and whatis it about?
Populations that impactepidemics, and so that's what I
study, and so by training, Ifocused a lot on what society
has to do with cardiovascularhealth and hence the
(01:56):
cardiovascular epidemiologist.
But epidemiology fundamentallyis a skill set, a set of skills
as a scientist, where I canapply the concepts of
epidemiology to any particularhealth outcome that you're
interested in.
So, fundamentally, I'm ascientist, which I love, and
have been working at the Centersfor Disease Control for the
(02:17):
last 20 plus years.
When I came there.
I came there as an epidemicintelligence service officer or
EIS officer, and did thattraining for two years and then
have been there ever since andas an executive director.
I run a nonprofit called WCAPSWomen of Color Advancing Peace,
security and ConflictTransformation, and my
(02:38):
responsibility is theprogramming that is focusing on
the development of women ofcolor in leadership roles and
also roles of policy change whenit comes to peace, security and
conflict transformation.
Speaker 2 (02:51):
Wow, okay.
So first of all, this is a lot,so let's peel this back.
So how long have you been atthe CDC now?
Speaker 1 (02:57):
I have been at CDC for 21 years.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
Wow, okay, and I think typically, at least for me
, I didn't really hear muchabout the CDC up until the
beginning of the pandemic.
Then it's like everyone lookingto the CDC and what's happening
and what is the CDC telling usto do?
Tell me about your role, kindof basically pre-pandemic, and
then through the height of thepandemic, what did your role
(03:20):
consist of and kind of how yousaw the shift in prioritization
of your agency right, so whichpandemic are you referring to?
Speaker 1 (03:28):
Because there have been a couple.
I love.
Speaker 2 (03:31):
this Are you referring to.
Covid, I am, but you pleasetell me what else we have been
through that I have not been toomuch paying attention to.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
Yeah, so that's not necessarily uncommon.
I came to CDC two years beforeHurricane Katrina, which is
probably one of the other majorevents that most people are
familiar with, but there areevents that happen all the time.
So when I came to CDC, friendsof mine were involved in the
anthrax response, and so thereare things that reached a level
(04:00):
of newsworthiness I guess youcould call it things that
reached a level of pandemics,international incidents that
involve our partners like WHOand other country offices, and
things like that that are goingon all the time.
So monkeypox has happenedrecently.
You had COVID-19.
There's been a measles outbreak.
We had H1N1, ebola, zika andmany other things in between
(04:27):
Ebola, zika and many otherthings in between natural
disasters, all of that.
And so the main thing that I didthe first two years I was there
was a lot of research.
So as an EIS officer, I got anopportunity just to kind of do a
lot of exploration of publichealth, and so I traveled to
India.
I traveled to a number of othercountries within India worked
on the stop polio response andanother of other countries for
other just things that I wasinterested in.
India I worked on the StopPolio response and another of
other countries for other justthings that I was interested in
(04:49):
learning.
So I went to Beijing becausethe CDC in Beijing and in China
was interested in setting up asurveillance system for chronic
disease, and as a cardiovascularepidemiologist I had expertise
in that area.
So I really sort of used thosetwo years as an EIS officer to
really explore multiple thingsin public health.
And then, when I got finished,hurricane Katrina happened and
it sort of used those two yearsas an EIS officer to really
explore multiple things inpublic health.
And then, when I got finished,hurricane Katrina happened and
it sort of shifted my focus andcareer to emergency management.
(05:12):
Because I was a cardiovascularepidemiologist and had a lot of
experience in chronic diseaseand vulnerable populations.
I got pulled into that responseto basically support the agency
with managing vulnerablepopulations in this particular
crisis.
Primarily, in the past withhurricanes it had been a lot of
focus on injuries.
Injury prevention was what youwould expect with natural
(05:34):
disasters such as a hurricane,but this particular incident was
very different in the way thatthere were many individuals who
were impacted by HurricaneKatrina that had a lot of
chronic conditions, multiplechronic conditions, disabilities
and a number of othervulnerabilities, and so it
really sort of changed, I think,the trajectory of the focus of
(05:57):
emergency preparedness at theagency in terms of how we dealt
with those populations inparticular, and so that shifted
sort of my focus at the agencyfrom less of the data analysis
and some of the other things Iwas doing to much more being the
person to help assist ingetting the agency on track on
how we manage these populationsand so sort of being the driving
(06:18):
the lead behind getting thesubject matter experts at the
agency who managed up to I don'tknow 25 plus vulnerable
populations which you know kids,schools, pregnant women,
persons with chronic conditions,all of that sort of together to
collectively figure out how wemanage these populations during
an emergency.
So that was 2025.
(06:39):
I mean 2005.
And I have been in emergencyresponse ever since I have been
in the Haiti cholera outbreakwhich happened after the
earthquake.
Like I said, h1n1, h7n9, mers,ebola, zika We've had two
Ebola's monkeypox and COVID-19.
So I think Ebola got people'sattention I think a lot, because
(06:59):
it started out in anothercountry and then came to the
United States and impactedseveral nurses here in the US.
And then probably Zika, I guess, got a lot of attention because
of its impact on pregnant womenand potential impact on birth
defects.
Then, of course, covid-19 goteverybody's attention.
So I think there's lots ofthings going on at the CDC all
the time.
I think a lot of people.
(07:20):
You know, of course, unlessyou're here in Atlanta, which is
where I am.
You tend not to sort of alwayspay a lot of attention to the
sort of small things going on atCDC.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
Okay, so tell me what happens when you walk into the
office on a Monday.
Call it April 2020.
So what are you working on,Like?
What are you, like tasked withdoing?
Like how are you, within yourrole, kind of helping this not
just the country, but the worldreally deal with this pandemic
that has, as you said, basicallystopped the world, unlike some
(07:49):
of the other outbreaks thatimpact specific populations or
smaller populations.
In some cases, like this wasactually like a time stop.
So tell me what you were doingkind of during that time to help
us get through that A lot ofmeetings.
Speaker 1 (08:05):
There are many people to answer to when you have a
response like that, and so forme in particular, for the COVID
response.
I was responsible for managingthe data collection in the US,
so basically, the datacollection from all of our
states, which was a pretty bigundertaking, because you're
talking about a system thateveryone doesn't use the same
(08:27):
method of data collection.
It doesn't all filter into oneparticular system, and then
you're creating a whole notherset of data points that you are
now expecting our partners atour state public health offices
to collect and all of ourhospitals basically to collect,
and on top of the fact that theyare also managing patient care
and people who have COVIDactually.
So that's a lot to ask of ourpartners.
(08:49):
My responsibility was to workwith them to implement the data
collection tool instrument thathad been created for us to use,
but also to work with them onfiguring out how to get the data
in exactly the way that weneeded, and initially we were
asked to collect it on a dailybasis, which was a bit of a
(09:10):
burden for our partners at theStates.
Again, a lot of meetings, a lotof conversation, a lot of
relationship management and alot of just trying to ensure
that we were being as supportiveand helpful as possible, in
addition to spinning up a teamof individuals who could be
responsible for managing whatneeded to happen in every single
state, plus deployers who couldgo out to the states and
(09:32):
support for COVID and a myriadof other things.
So I think you know the earlydays of any response, like I
said, is a lot of meetings, alot of conversation, a lot of
figuring out who goes where, alot of org chart development.
No-transcript.
Speaker 2 (09:50):
Yeah, absolutely no.
I specifically remember youknow I worked for the city of
New York at that time and thestates, the cities, everyone
trying to compile informationdaily.
And you know information whenwe're talking about people,
infected deaths, the trendsbetween what you know, the just
data that needed to be collected.
And that was just.
(10:10):
You know me looking at it fromthe city and the state of New
York, right?
So not looking at it as anentire country, right?
Speaker 1 (10:17):
And so we're asking the whole country to do that on
top of patient care.
And a lot of that data is notcoming from the health
department, it's coming directlyfrom the hospital.
So there is a nurse who istaking care of COVID patients
who we've also asked thatsometime at the end of your
shift to go enter the data on anumber of patients that you had
the status of patients, the PPEat the hospital, all of those
(10:38):
things.
So it was a lot.
I had experience with workingwith the state, epis and the
health departments previously,so had those partnerships with
some of the other agencies inplace, so was able to sort of
navigate it a bit and managepeople's sort of anger, I think,
quite frankly, at the time whenall of these things were going
on.
So it was interesting and,given that I had been in a
(10:59):
number of other pandemics before, it took a different toll, I
think, on everybody Because, asyou said, it wasn't just a small
group of people that wereimpacted.
The whole country shut down,the world shut down, and so it
just required a different levelof, I think, engagement and, I
think, resilience for all of us.
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (11:15):
Okay, so tell me more about what's your favorite part
of your role.
Speaker 1 (11:18):
Favorite part of my role.
So people ask me that all thetime.
I love being a scientist.
I love, you know.
Undergrad was probably thefirst time I heard about the
Centers for Disease Controlmaybe high school and once I
sort of got an opportunity to doa summer program at the CDC I
just was kind of in love.
I was like who would want towork anywhere else?
I think I love the idea ofpublic health and that space
(11:42):
just being able to impact notjust domestic but international,
so the global public healthspace, and just being able to
just learn and be supportive ofour domestic and international
partners.
As a biology major, a personwho's always loved science and
math, once I got a chance tolearn about public health it
just kind of took over fromthere Got it.
(12:03):
I love that Okay.
Speaker 2 (12:04):
So I want to be mindful that you also have
another full-time role, and wehaven't really dove into that
role yet, so we'd love to hear alittle bit more about kind of
what that role is, how you cameto have two full-time roles and
what that looks like for you.
Speaker 1 (12:18):
Yeah, it looks like a lot of balancing, quite a bit
of a balancing act, but it worksbecause there's ebbs and flows
on both sides, so it works outreally well.
You know, it is my first timeworking in a nonprofit.
On that side of things, my weekinvolves sort of a mix of, I
would say, strategic planning,engaging with diverse
stakeholders, finding financesto support the nonprofit,
(12:43):
leadership, engagement,leadership development,
collaborating with partners,advocating for policies that you
know ensure women of color arein the spaces that they need to
be in.
So I would say you know abalance of meetings, research,
mentoring, fundraising, you know, kind of all of those things.
And it's funny because when I Iremember telling my dad about
this job.
So I was on the board of thisorganization first and then got
(13:06):
asked to step in as the interimdirector and then stayed as the
ED, my dad sent me a bunch ofbooks about, you know, being how
to be a good ED and you know,interactions with the board and
all of those kinds of things andraising money for nonprofits.
And it wasn't until about a weeklater that it hit me that I was
like, hold on, wait a minute,my dad was actually an ED and I
(13:29):
didn't realize that that was hisjob title because he was that
when I was a kid so I just knewhe worked at a nonprofit.
I didn't, you know.
I knew he ran it, but I reallydidn't think about what his job
title was and so it didn't hitme till he sent me all these
books.
And it didn't really.
It didn't occur to me at firstbecause my dad has a huge
library, always has the wholetime.
You know as much as I've been akid, he, he always had lots and
lots of books, so it didn'tsurprise me that he had these
(13:51):
books.
But then I thought about it.
I was like, wait a minute, youweren't eating when I was
growing up.
This is absolutely crazy.
It was really enjoyable to makethat connection again as well.
Speaker 2 (13:59):
I love those full circle moments and you're
basically still passing down.
I mean, it sounds like thatlevel of service was instilled
in you early right and you'restill working both on the
federal government side and onthe nonprofit side.
And you know, I'm sure that'snot coincidental, I'm sure
that's much more exposure andwhat you were privy to and kind
(14:21):
of what values were instilled inyou then.
Speaker 1 (14:22):
Yeah, it definitely was for us all full circle,
because I never even thought ofit when I was a kid, didn't even
occur to me, never even reallythought about those words.
Honestly, that's awesome.
Speaker 2 (14:31):
No, that makes sense to me.
So tell me about this role now.
So I understand that you wereon the board and I can see how.
If you're on the board of anorganization and they're looking
for an executive director, Ican see why you would step up
and say you know what I could dothis in the interim Because, as
part of the board.
One, that's part of yourresponsibilities.
Two, you want to make sure thatthe organization thrives and
(14:51):
succeeds right, and you want toset them up for success.
Help me understand how youarrived at the conclusion that
you can actually like balanceboth full-time roles.
Speaker 1 (15:00):
You know, I think I just had to do it.
So I think it was one of thosethings where, when I was asked
to step in as interim, I waslike, given my skillset and
ability to manage emergenciesand pandemics and other things,
I can do this.
So I think it was a matter ofsort of stepping in from the
perspective of really looking atsort of what were the needs,
sort of emergent needs, and thenthinking about sort of
(15:23):
assessing what the needs of theorganization were going forward.
So I sort of just decided thatI could apply the skill sets
that I use regularly, just, youknow, use those over the course
of that next year as I wasworking for the nonprofit, and
so that's what I did, did sortof a needs assessment, I guess
you could say, of theorganization, and that's what I
did for the first year.
(15:43):
And then, after that year,decided to reapply to be the
executive director, decided Iwanted to finish what I started,
I guess you could say.
And here I am.
Speaker 2 (15:55):
I love this right Because I think sometimes we
mentally set limits andboundaries on what we could do
right, and you have this longcareer at the CDC and you find
ways to balance your bandwidthright and you recognize I've
seen people that have eithertheir side hustle or a side
business or even if it's anonprofit, it's their nonprofit
(16:15):
that they've started right.
You went another route.
You went to leadership on theboard level to then saying you
know what?
I can actually help supportthis organization as a full-time
role.
And I appreciate that because Ithink a lot of us need to hear
that we can extend beyond whatwe think is the normal bandwidth
.
I probably don't recommend it tomost of us, but I do think
(16:35):
there's a universe where we tendto limit, kind of, what our
contributions can be.
But if you can balance the two,why not?
Right, like, why not, why notbe this epidemiologist working
for the federal government andalso an executive director of a
nonprofit?
So you know, I just reallyappreciate when folks take the
leadership and say you know what?
I don't want to set limits onmyself and this is all tied into
(16:57):
the impact that I want to give.
Speaker 1 (16:58):
And I had asked a couple of my friends about it
because I was like, am I crazy?
And they were like.
They were like this is perfectfor you, and I think that was
the other thing is it seemedlike a natural progression and
so it was weird.
It was weird because it waslike this doesn't make any sense
, but it was almost like it justkind of got dropped in my lap
intentionally.
It was odd to say no.
(17:19):
So it just kind of felt naturaland so I'm really happy that I
did it Really enjoy both ofthose spaces and they you know
to your point about sort ofservice, and so they really sort
of just fulfill both of thethings that I love.
And I guess it's that serviceand also sort of the academic
side of being a scientist that Ienjoy.
Speaker 2 (17:37):
Tell me more about the nonprofit.
What type of services do youprovide, like?
What do you all do?
Speaker 1 (17:40):
Yeah.
So WCAPS has a breadth ofthings.
We have mentorship programs,pipeline programs.
We also have initiatives thatwe have that focus on DEI.
We have a number of partneringevents that we do, such as
webinars, seminars.
We basically do whatever it iswe can to support, all the way
(18:02):
from K-12 to mid-career women ofcolor in the space of peace,
security and conflicttransformation, to ensure that
they have a seat at the tableand not just a seat, but an
active voice in all levels ofchange and policy change and
being change makers and thoughtleaders and really force
multipliers in this space ofpeace, security and conflict
(18:23):
transformation.
So the goal is to make surethat we stand behind those women
in those spaces to move thingsin the direction that they need
to be in, to ensure that ourvoices are heard and our
experiences are heard and valuedand recognized.
Speaker 2 (18:35):
That's great.
Is this a national organization, and how big are you all?
Speaker 1 (18:38):
It is.
There's 2,000 plus members.
We have international chaptersas well as domestic ones, so it
is definitely an internationalorganization.
It's based in the US, butdefinitely open globally, and
our pipeline program has youngwomen from all over the world,
so it's very exciting to seethose women grow.
It's exciting to work withwomen who are seasoned in this
(19:01):
space as well to get theirwisdom on you know how we make
progress in this space and, justbroadly, really exciting to
work with just a vast array ofwomen of color who are just
doing so many wonderful things.
Speaker 2 (19:11):
Can you tell me both what are your favorite parts of
this role and the mostchallenging part of being an
executive director of this typeof organization?
Speaker 1 (19:18):
Oh, so I think favorite parts are the people
that I get to meet and theservice component.
My least favorite part wouldhave to be the fundraising piece
, I think just with a federalbackground it's just not
something we do and then I haveto do on a regular basis.
So that probably was my leastfavorite part and I hope I can
say that.
Speaker 2 (19:36):
No, that's fair.
I'm sure many executivedirectors are aligned with you
on that.
They like the organization,they like the work, and I'm sure
there are challenges with that.
So how do you get better atboth of these things, because
those are two very differentbackgrounds having
epidemiologists and now runningan organization?
What have you done in continueto grow or like, fill in any
(19:56):
gaps, from scientists tononprofit leadership?
Speaker 1 (20:01):
I continue to learn.
I consider myself a servantleader, but I also consider
myself a lifelong learner.
So those books my dad sent me Iread, continue to take courses
online.
I make sure I strategicallyplace mentors in my life that
have expertise in many spaces sothat when I hit roadblocks of
things and I may not have asmuch experience and I'm able to
(20:22):
get the support that I need tobe successful in that space.
And also making sure you'repositioning the people around
you that also are experts in thespaces that you're not, because
we're not going to be expertsin everything.
So we make sure we haveadvisors and the people around
us who know those spaces and sothey can be supportive of us.
So that is generally what Imake sure I try to do.
Speaker 2 (20:41):
That makes sense.
And I mean, you're also youhave a master's in public health
, right?
Yes, where did you get that?
And also you also have a PhD.
So you know, we'd love to makesure that we cover that.
And I know you've also done agood number of, or some,
fellowships, and I know thatbecause we went through one and
that's how you and I gotconnected.
But I think I think all ofthese things combined are part
(21:03):
of like what prepares you forthese types of moments when,
when, then, you step intofurther in your career.
Speaker 1 (21:08):
Yes, absolutely.
So I would start with myundergraduate degree, which I
have, a bachelor's of scienceand biology from Clark Atlanta
University, very proud of myHBCU and I did an internship
called Project MHOTEP the summerafter I graduated.
Mhotep is run through MorehousePublic Health Science Institute
, which was started by Dr BillJenkins and my advisor for that
(21:30):
program.
His name is Dr Frank Richardsand he works on a disease called
river blindness.
That was my sort of like realsort of main dipping into the
CDC because he was actually atCDC.
So I spent a summer workingwith him and so that was my
initial sort of entrance intoreal CDC work.
But after I got to under ed Iwas really thinking I was going
(21:53):
to medical school and thenrealized how much I really just
like the smell of hospitals,like from the soap to the like,
everything I was like this isnot going to work, decided that
I needed to sort of think aboutyou know what are the other
things in biology and science Icould do, and I really didn't
want to be in a lab because Ihad been in the lab.
I had one of my faculty.
I worked for him in the lab andI really enjoyed it.
(22:14):
I really liked working for him,but I knew that I didn't just
want to be in the lab.
And then a friend of mine askedme to take a biostats class,
and during taking that biostatsclass, my TA for that class
actually was in this program andthat's how I got introduced to
public health.
And so after that, justeverything just changed at that
point.
So I would say there, and thenafter I had this exposure to
(22:38):
epidemiology in particular, thenI had to decide OK, so what is
the shift in my career going tolook like now?
So that's how I ended upapplying to schools of public
health and I did my master's inpublic health and epidemiology
at the University of Michiganand had an amazing supervisor
there.
And then I decided thatdefinitely was going to do a
(22:58):
doctoral degree there.
And then I decided thatdefinitely was going to do a
doctoral degree.
So at that particular time myactually my my advisor at U of M
, dr Sherman James he's amazing.
I still keep in touch with allof these people.
There were only a couple ofprograms that were really sort
of focusing on epidemiology atthe time, and so I ended up
applying to Harvard School ofPublic Health and so that's
where I got my it's actually anSTD, a doctorate of science had
(23:19):
a wonderful advisor there, lisa,and many, many other amazing
faculty there as well.
So really from biology to non I, you know I did a lot of other
training programs at CDC as well.
I did programs on metaleadership and other programs
and then, once I got to sort ofthe space of being in nonprofit,
(23:42):
shaped this public health,global public health, then
intersection of global publichealth, and then peace and
security and advocacy you knowsort of trajectory of things.
Speaker 2 (24:05):
Yeah, so let's tell the world what ICAP is, because
I do think it was a remarkableprogram.
Speaker 1 (24:09):
Yeah, so International Career Advancement
Program.
You know it's interestingbecause I wasn't sure what to
expect from ICAP and what,because I think you know the
description of it is formid-career sort of professionals
, and but what I felt was thatit was going to give me that
sort of network and backgroundto really sort of dig deep into
(24:31):
sort of the international peace,security, conflict
transformation and policy sideof things which I don't have an
extensive background in, and soI really felt like it did, like
it did give me that.
So it allowed me.
First of all, it also made merealize that nobody told me
about being a foreign serviceofficer, and so that was the
other interesting thing I feellike I learned from being in
ICAP, that I was like, wait aminute, this is another career
(24:52):
path I could have taken andactually I realized I still
can't have another 10 years todecide if I want to do it.
Speaker 2 (24:57):
And you have the background with the conflict
resolution that I'm sure willcome into play.
Speaker 1 (25:01):
Yes, yes.
So I would really be excitedabout sort of being an
ambassador.
I think that would be a reallycool dream job at some point,
maybe before I retire.
I just really felt like it gavethat background and experience
and an opportunity to learn fromso many other people in the
field and the space who areworking in these areas, and that
was just really great.
It just opened up just a wholenother door to other
(25:23):
opportunities and partners andnow some of those same people,
their organizations I'm tryingto figure out how we can do
something together with WCAPSand collaborate on something and
it's just kind of really openedup, I think, the door of
knowledge and information toother opportunities in this
space and what others are doing.
Speaker 2 (25:40):
Quite frankly, Absolutely, and I think for
folks that are specificallyinterested in, I would say
foreign service is primarilylike the State Department are
folks that are there, but Ithink either government or
nonprofits or philanthropy,specific folks that care about,
like the DEI lens component ofit and just having a network of
folks that are dedicated to thattype of work Definitely
(26:01):
encourage folks to look at ICAP.
We, we formed a really strongbond with folks there in our
week over in Aspen, which thatin itself is a good selling
point, but it definitely wasjust a just a great time with
some really good humans that arededicating their careers to in
equitable ways in differentparts of the world.
So you know, so that part wasgreat.
(26:22):
Tell me more about some ofthese books and resources.
Right, you mentioned you read alot to stay on top of things.
Can you recommend any books orresources that have helped you
personally or professionally?
Speaker 1 (26:34):
So I have a lot more books than I read.
Let me start by saying that Iwas having this conversation
yesterday.
I am a connoisseur of books.
I love books.
I think I love and I loveauthors that are persons of
color.
I often see books that I'm likeoh, I have to have that book, I
need to have it in my library.
I tend to like I have a lot ofpoetry books, I have a lot of
(26:56):
self-care books, books likeCrucial Conversations, plus also
a lot of just kind of historybooks.
And then if you were to look atmy collection of books that I
have for my kids, that's just awhole nother level of sort of
books that I have, and some ofthem, quite frankly, are not
just for my kids, they're for mebecause I really love them as
well.
I'm trying to think is thereanything in particular?
No, I mean really I just kindof read sort of what I'm feeling
(27:18):
at the time.
There is a book, you know, byone of my mentors.
Her name is Octavia Rahim andshe focuses a lot on rest.
That has sort of been the bookthat I keep in my bag, my
luggage, you know, in that, andshe's coming out with a new one.
Any of her three books arebooks that I keep with me and
(27:40):
travel with me, because it helpsme really think a little bit
more about not just balance butalso harmony and keeping myself
going and allowing myself torest and pause, and so I would
say that in this, in this partof my life and career, those
have been kind of reallyimportant for me these days.
Speaker 2 (27:53):
And as.
Speaker 1 (27:53):
I get older, quite frankly, managing, you know,
work, life, family and all ofthat.
Speaker 2 (28:04):
So this can be for both of your roles.
You know, both as someone thathas dedicated their career to
working at the CDC, at a federalagency, and as someone that is
running in, that is, anexecutive director of a
nonprofit with global membershipand impact in different ways.
You know how much money canfolks expect to make in these
types of careers.
Speaker 1 (28:17):
Yeah, you know that's an interesting question.
So I think most federal jobs,like in terms of salary range,
is posted.
I think it's public knowledgeand it's funny because it
definitely was one of the thingsI remember talking about some
of my friends when we left gradschool.
They were like, yeah, I'm notgoing to work for the government
, you don't make any money.
I think that's a common themeacross federal agencies and it
(28:38):
also depends, of course, howlong you stay in the government.
So I would say sort of in myspace for both of those things
and on the nonprofit size, itdepends on the resources your
nonprofit has, the size of it,how big it is, how much money is
coming in all of those things.
So I would say, as a range Iwould say for both of them,
(29:01):
given that I've been in my jobwith CDC for over 20 years, I
would say both of them areprobably in the range of 100 to
150, maybe more, again,depending upon I've seen ED jobs
posted online and it's 160, 170, 180.
But again, it depends on theresources of the organization,
how big it is and how much moneythey can, quite frankly, pay
the ED, and so I think it woulddepend.
But after 20 years in thegovernment I would say 100,000
(29:24):
plus is a good space to say youcould be in.
That's what I would say.
Speaker 2 (29:28):
I appreciate that.
No, I think that's superimportant, right?
Because I think a lot of uslook at things like federal
government or government periodand think, well, we're not going
to make any money, it'll begood benefits.
Speaker 1 (29:39):
Benefits are important, absolutely,
absolutely, and I'm glad youbrought that up because I was
going to say there are otherthings that balance it out.
Speaker 2 (29:45):
So tell me more.
Tell me more about why thesebenefits are so good.
Speaker 1 (29:48):
For me, I think that when I was a single mom, when I
started at the CDC, and for meit just provided a level of
stability and security.
I'm also a commission corpsofficer, so I'm a US Public
Health Service commission corpsofficer, so I am active duty
technically.
So I am one of the two unarmedbranches of what we would call
the uniform service.
Most people think about themilitary, that would be the
(30:11):
armed services, and we areunarmed.
It's us and NOAA, butcollectively we are the uniform
service.
So I get paid by my time inservice and my rank.
That determines how much my payis and that too I can look up
online and figure out how much Iwould make at this many years
at this particular rank.
I would say that there arebenefits of stability,
(30:32):
retirement, va benefits andthings like that.
That working for the federalgovernment, I think provides
just a lot of consistency fromthat perspective.
You know health insurancecovered, you know all of those
kinds of things, so I think youknow it can balance it out some
from that perspective.
You know I have a lot offriends that decided to go the
route of academia, but then Ialso didn't want to be locked in
(30:53):
to one working at a universitywhere my salary depended upon
how much money I brought in frommy grant and from my projects,
or, you know, having to dealwith the rigor of trying to get
rank, you know, at an academicinstitution.
And so for me this, just for mywork life balance was just a
lot more.
It made more sense for my lifeat the time to go the federal
(31:15):
government route.
Speaker 2 (31:16):
That makes sense.
What advice would you have forsomeone that's looking to work
in the federal government and,you know, have some of these
hesitations?
Speaker 1 (31:23):
I think my advice comes back to you have to do
what's best for your life.
Age plays a role in that.
Family status plays a role inthat.
Like I said, I was a single momat the time, and so, you know,
my daughter had been with me inall of my moving of cities and
states and all of my degreeprograms since undergrad, and so
at that point I really justwanted to have some stableness
(31:47):
for her at that point, and sothat provided that for me.
So, really, you know, I thinkthe decision comes down to you
know again, what is it that youwant for your career?
So me working at the CDC whichI loved anyway was fine with me,
and it was OK that I worked forthe federal government.
At that point I just needed todecide whether or not I wanted
to be a civil servant or Ireally wanted to be active duty
(32:09):
and part of the commission corps, and I felt that, career-wise,
being part of the commissioncorps also had benefits that
allowed me to be part of anactivated core of individuals
that support public healthresponses, and so I really felt
like I wanted to do that.
So I think, at the end of theday, you have to do the things
that are best for your life andthe balance of what you have
(32:29):
going on in your life and whatyou want for your career down
the road and the flexibilitythat you think you might want
ahead.
I have friends that are stillteaching at universities, and
academia is all they wanted todo, and so that was perfect for
them, and I think this hasreally been a flexibility for me
that I really enjoy being ableto move around the agency and do
different things and still beinvolved in global public health
(32:51):
more broadly.
Speaker 2 (32:52):
Are either of your two roles what you thought you
were going to be doing when youwere younger?
Speaker 1 (32:56):
thought you were going to be doing when you were
younger.
No, as I said, I really thoughtI was going to medical school,
you know.
So I'm a PK, I'm a preacher'skid and spent a lot of time at
church, at church events,traveling to church conventions
and things like that with my dadand family.
And science has always been,you know, my love, and so I have
(33:17):
not.
I've never wavered from that.
My mom loved to travel, so Iknew at some point you know,
probably you know traveling wasgoing to be something that I
wanted to be part of.
You know my career at somepoint.
But other than that, really sortof had just really had this
whole medical school thing inmind.
And, like I said, it wasn'tuntil I got to undergrad and was
really like this is not goingto play out the way I thought it
(33:39):
was.
So I had to think of somethingdifferent and it took me.
I guess my sophomore year iswhen my friend asked me to take
this biostats class, because thefirst year I just was like you
know what?
You know, I have time, I'llfigure it out and then when I
took this class, it just allkind of made sense that public
health was the route for me.
So I really never had thoughtabout anything else growing up
other than my dad's a preacher,a Baptist minister, his twin
(34:00):
sister is, my aunts and unclesare also ministers.
That was definitely not a routeI was going to go, and so this
was really the only other option, and so never really thought
about anything else, quitefrankly.
Speaker 2 (34:10):
Are you involved in anything else outside of work
that either brings you passionand joy or that you help support
with some of your expertise?
That could be a board, thatcould be a membership somewhere.
That could be anything that youthink just kind of helps fill
your cup and also provide someof your knowledge to others.
Speaker 1 (34:32):
I am actually on another board that allows me to
share my expertise and knowledgeand passion.
I love going to museums.
I love art.
That is really a thing thatreally brings me joy.
Music I love music and Iabsolutely love to travel.
Even though I try to get as muchtravel from work as possible, I
absolutely just love theexposure to various cultures.
I mean, just everything aboutit just makes me just really
excited.
I guess it's a bug I got frommy mom that I didn't realize I
(34:55):
had till I got older.
But my oldest daughter, who is31, also loves to travel, which
I guess is a bug she got from me.
So she even travels by herselfto go on vacations when she
needs to.
She is fluent in Spanish, andso she just came back from
Mexico.
She loves Cuba.
She's been to Medellin inColombia, and so she really just
(35:17):
loves also just kind of beingin the world and I enjoy that as
well.
So I would say you know anythingin the space of art.
So, like every time we go outof the country or even just out
of the state, we try to find amuseum while we're there.
I usually have a tendency tofigure out all of the places
we're going to eat while we'rethere.
So food.
So I would say culture, food,art, music and travel are the
(35:39):
things that really, really makeme happy.
Speaker 2 (35:41):
How can people support the nonprofit that
you're the executive directorfor?
Speaker 1 (35:45):
Yes, so wcapsorg W-C-A-P-Sorg Please visit the
website.
You can support by being amember.
You are able to supportfinancially and we welcome all
allies to the organization tosupport the work that we're
doing in partnerships and manyother avenues that you could do
to support WCAPS.
(36:06):
We are very open to women ofcolor and, like I said, other
allies as well that aresupporting making sure that the
voices of women of color areheard in that space.
Speaker 2 (36:17):
Is there anything else we haven't covered today
that the world should know aboutyou?
Speaker 1 (36:20):
Let's see, I was born and raised in Pittsburgh and I
am an avid Steelers fan.
There's nothing you can tell methat would not make me think
about anybody else other thanthe Steelers, no matter where
I've lived.
I've lived in Massachusetts, Ihave lived in, I live in Atlanta
I'm not a Braves fan oranything else that has to do
with Atlanta.
I have lived in Michigan, so,but there's nothing you could do
(36:42):
to change my love for theSteelers.
I have an active member card,for it's called the Steel City
Mafia, and I have Steelers allover my truck.
I would say, yes, that's theonly other thing I can think of.
And so you know.
It's funny because when I lookat some of my family, like
online and things that they'reposting, they all have black and
gold on all the time and myhusband thinks it's much.
(37:03):
It's definitely a cult, butyeah, so that's the only thing I
can think of.
I have three other siblings.
I am from a very big family.
Both my parents have more thaneight siblings and so just grew
up around a lot of family and Ihave three children that span
(37:23):
the ages of 31 to 12.
And I'm over 50, which I amabsolutely delighted about, and
I know a lot of people don'tlike talking about their age,
but when I turned 50, I wasabsolutely ecstatic.
So it is one thing that I feelvery proud of and I love what I
do.
I love my family, I love what Ido, I love life, I love trying
(37:46):
to figure out how to get tolearn about something new and
how to be somewhere and how totravel somewhere else.
I have been to places I've nevereven heard of.
I've been to Montenegro, whichis in the Balkans, which I had
never heard of.
I've been to Brunei, and I hopeto just kind of continue to
live a life of service and joyand meet other wonderful people
(38:07):
like yourselves and other peoplein our ICAP class and just
continue to grow the network fornothing else than to just
really know and meet reallyother awesome people.
So I was really sort of excitedbut also nervous to be on the
podcast because, I told you,once I listened to some of the
other people you had on there, Iwas like man, these people are
amazing.
So I'm really, really happy tobe here and very, very proud of
(38:29):
you for doing this career cheatcode.
I think it's really awesome anda wonderful thing that you are
doing for our community as well.
Speaker 2 (38:36):
Thank you, I appreciate it.
I just think you know amazingpeople should connect and
amazing people should behighlighted, so thank you for
joining us today.
I really appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (38:43):
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 2 (38:44):
I hope you enjoyed this episode.
If you did and believe on themission we're on, please like,
rate and subscribe to thispodcast on whatever platform
you're using, and share thispodcast with your friends and
your networks.
Make sure you follow us onInstagram and LinkedIn at Career
Cheat Code and tell us peopleor careers you would like to see
highlighted.
See you next week with somemore cheat codes.
Peace.
My dad sent me a bunch of books about you know
being how to be a good ED andyou know interactions with the
board and all of those kinds ofthings and raising money for
nonprofits.
And it wasn't until about aweek later that it hit me that I
was like hold on, wait a minute.
My dad was actually an ED and Ididn't realize that that was
(00:20):
his job title because he wasthat when I was a kid so I just
knew he worked at a nonprofit.
I didn't, you know, I knew heran it but I really didn't think
about what his job title wasand so it didn't hit me till he
sent me all these books and itdidn't.
Really.
It didn't occur to me at firstbecause my dad has a huge
library, always has the wholetime.
You know as much as I've been akid.
He always had lots and lotsthese books.
(00:41):
But then I thought about it.
I was like, wait a minute.
He wore an ED when I wasgrowing up.
This is absolutely crazy.
It was really enjoyable to makethat connection again as well.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
Welcome to Career Cheat Code.
In this podcast, you'll hearhow everyday people impact the
world through their careers.
Learn about their journey,career hacks and obstacles along
the way.
Whether you're already havingthe impact you want or are
searching for it, this is thepodcast for you.
All right, malika, welcome tothe show.
Thank you for having me.
I appreciate you taking thetime to connect today.
You know, let's not waste amoment.
(01:11):
Let's dive right in and tellthe world what you do for a
living.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
So I am an epidemiologist, I am a social
epidemiologist, specificallywith a background in
cardiovascular epidemiology, andalso I am the executive
director of a nonprofit.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
Wow, so you have two roles.
What does that mean?
How are you the executivedirector of a nonprofit and what
does the nonprofit do?
And what does it mean to be anepidemiologist?
Speaker 1 (01:35):
Yes, absolutely so.
Epidemiology unlike a lot ofpeople think, skin epidemiology
focuses on epidemics, and whatis it about?
Populations that impactepidemics, and so that's what I
study, and so by training, Ifocused a lot on what society
has to do with cardiovascularhealth and hence the
(01:56):
cardiovascular epidemiologist.
But epidemiology fundamentallyis a skill set, a set of skills
as a scientist, where I canapply the concepts of
epidemiology to any particularhealth outcome that you're
interested in.
So, fundamentally, I'm ascientist, which I love, and
have been working at the Centersfor Disease Control for the
(02:17):
last 20 plus years.
When I came there.
I came there as an epidemicintelligence service officer or
EIS officer, and did thattraining for two years and then
have been there ever since andas an executive director.
I run a nonprofit called WCAPSWomen of Color Advancing Peace,
security and ConflictTransformation, and my
(02:38):
responsibility is theprogramming that is focusing on
the development of women ofcolor in leadership roles and
also roles of policy change whenit comes to peace, security and
conflict transformation.
Speaker 2 (02:51):
Wow, okay.
So first of all, this is a lot,so let's peel this back.
So how long have you been atthe CDC now?
Speaker 1 (02:57):
I have been at CDC for 21 years.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
Wow, okay, and I think typically, at least for me
, I didn't really hear muchabout the CDC up until the
beginning of the pandemic.
Then it's like everyone lookingto the CDC and what's happening
and what is the CDC telling usto do?
Tell me about your role, kindof basically pre-pandemic, and
then through the height of thepandemic, what did your role
(03:20):
consist of and kind of how yousaw the shift in prioritization
of your agency right, so whichpandemic are you referring to?
Speaker 1 (03:28):
Because there have been a couple.
I love.
Speaker 2 (03:31):
this Are you referring to.
Covid, I am, but you pleasetell me what else we have been
through that I have not been toomuch paying attention to.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
Yeah, so that's not necessarily uncommon.
I came to CDC two years beforeHurricane Katrina, which is
probably one of the other majorevents that most people are
familiar with, but there areevents that happen all the time.
So when I came to CDC, friendsof mine were involved in the
anthrax response, and so thereare things that reached a level
(04:00):
of newsworthiness I guess youcould call it things that
reached a level of pandemics,international incidents that
involve our partners like WHOand other country offices, and
things like that that are goingon all the time.
So monkeypox has happenedrecently.
You had COVID-19.
There's been a measles outbreak.
We had H1N1, ebola, zika andmany other things in between
(04:27):
Ebola, zika and many otherthings in between natural
disasters, all of that.
And so the main thing that I didthe first two years I was there
was a lot of research.
So as an EIS officer, I got anopportunity just to kind of do a
lot of exploration of publichealth, and so I traveled to
India.
I traveled to a number of othercountries within India worked
on the stop polio response andanother of other countries for
other just things that I wasinterested in.
India I worked on the StopPolio response and another of
other countries for other justthings that I was interested in
(04:49):
learning.
So I went to Beijing becausethe CDC in Beijing and in China
was interested in setting up asurveillance system for chronic
disease, and as a cardiovascularepidemiologist I had expertise
in that area.
So I really sort of used thosetwo years as an EIS officer to
really explore multiple thingsin public health.
And then, when I got finished,hurricane Katrina happened and
it sort of used those two yearsas an EIS officer to really
explore multiple things inpublic health.
And then, when I got finished,hurricane Katrina happened and
it sort of shifted my focus andcareer to emergency management.
(05:12):
Because I was a cardiovascularepidemiologist and had a lot of
experience in chronic diseaseand vulnerable populations.
I got pulled into that responseto basically support the agency
with managing vulnerablepopulations in this particular
crisis.
Primarily, in the past withhurricanes it had been a lot of
focus on injuries.
Injury prevention was what youwould expect with natural
(05:34):
disasters such as a hurricane,but this particular incident was
very different in the way thatthere were many individuals who
were impacted by HurricaneKatrina that had a lot of
chronic conditions, multiplechronic conditions, disabilities
and a number of othervulnerabilities, and so it
really sort of changed, I think,the trajectory of the focus of
(05:57):
emergency preparedness at theagency in terms of how we dealt
with those populations inparticular, and so that shifted
sort of my focus at the agencyfrom less of the data analysis
and some of the other things Iwas doing to much more being the
person to help assist ingetting the agency on track on
how we manage these populationsand so sort of being the driving
(06:18):
the lead behind getting thesubject matter experts at the
agency who managed up to I don'tknow 25 plus vulnerable
populations which you know kids,schools, pregnant women,
persons with chronic conditions,all of that sort of together to
collectively figure out how wemanage these populations during
an emergency.
So that was 2025.
(06:39):
I mean 2005.
And I have been in emergencyresponse ever since I have been
in the Haiti cholera outbreakwhich happened after the
earthquake.
Like I said, h1n1, h7n9, mers,ebola, zika We've had two
Ebola's monkeypox and COVID-19.
So I think Ebola got people'sattention I think a lot, because
(06:59):
it started out in anothercountry and then came to the
United States and impactedseveral nurses here in the US.
And then probably Zika, I guess, got a lot of attention because
of its impact on pregnant womenand potential impact on birth
defects.
Then, of course, covid-19 goteverybody's attention.
So I think there's lots ofthings going on at the CDC all
the time.
I think a lot of people.
(07:20):
You know, of course, unlessyou're here in Atlanta, which is
where I am.
You tend not to sort of alwayspay a lot of attention to the
sort of small things going on atCDC.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
Okay, so tell me what happens when you walk into the
office on a Monday.
Call it April 2020.
So what are you working on,Like?
What are you, like tasked withdoing?
Like how are you, within yourrole, kind of helping this not
just the country, but the worldreally deal with this pandemic
that has, as you said, basicallystopped the world, unlike some
(07:49):
of the other outbreaks thatimpact specific populations or
smaller populations.
In some cases, like this wasactually like a time stop.
So tell me what you were doingkind of during that time to help
us get through that A lot ofmeetings.
Speaker 1 (08:05):
There are many people to answer to when you have a
response like that, and so forme in particular, for the COVID
response.
I was responsible for managingthe data collection in the US,
so basically, the datacollection from all of our
states, which was a pretty bigundertaking, because you're
talking about a system thateveryone doesn't use the same
(08:27):
method of data collection.
It doesn't all filter into oneparticular system, and then
you're creating a whole notherset of data points that you are
now expecting our partners atour state public health offices
to collect and all of ourhospitals basically to collect,
and on top of the fact that theyare also managing patient care
and people who have COVIDactually.
So that's a lot to ask of ourpartners.
(08:49):
My responsibility was to workwith them to implement the data
collection tool instrument thathad been created for us to use,
but also to work with them onfiguring out how to get the data
in exactly the way that weneeded, and initially we were
asked to collect it on a dailybasis, which was a bit of a
(09:10):
burden for our partners at theStates.
Again, a lot of meetings, a lotof conversation, a lot of
relationship management and alot of just trying to ensure
that we were being as supportiveand helpful as possible, in
addition to spinning up a teamof individuals who could be
responsible for managing whatneeded to happen in every single
state, plus deployers who couldgo out to the states and
(09:32):
support for COVID and a myriadof other things.
So I think you know the earlydays of any response, like I
said, is a lot of meetings, alot of conversation, a lot of
figuring out who goes where, alot of org chart development.
No-transcript.
Speaker 2 (09:50):
Yeah, absolutely no.
I specifically remember youknow I worked for the city of
New York at that time and thestates, the cities, everyone
trying to compile informationdaily.
And you know information whenwe're talking about people,
infected deaths, the trendsbetween what you know, the just
data that needed to be collected.
And that was just.
(10:10):
You know me looking at it fromthe city and the state of New
York, right?
So not looking at it as anentire country, right?
Speaker 1 (10:17):
And so we're asking the whole country to do that on
top of patient care.
And a lot of that data is notcoming from the health
department, it's coming directlyfrom the hospital.
So there is a nurse who istaking care of COVID patients
who we've also asked thatsometime at the end of your
shift to go enter the data on anumber of patients that you had
the status of patients, the PPEat the hospital, all of those
(10:38):
things.
So it was a lot.
I had experience with workingwith the state, epis and the
health departments previously,so had those partnerships with
some of the other agencies inplace, so was able to sort of
navigate it a bit and managepeople's sort of anger, I think,
quite frankly, at the time whenall of these things were going
on.
So it was interesting and,given that I had been in a
(10:59):
number of other pandemics before, it took a different toll, I
think, on everybody Because, asyou said, it wasn't just a small
group of people that wereimpacted.
The whole country shut down,the world shut down, and so it
just required a different levelof, I think, engagement and, I
think, resilience for all of us.
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (11:15):
Okay, so tell me more about what's your favorite part
of your role.
Speaker 1 (11:18):
Favorite part of my role.
So people ask me that all thetime.
I love being a scientist.
I love, you know.
Undergrad was probably thefirst time I heard about the
Centers for Disease Controlmaybe high school and once I
sort of got an opportunity to doa summer program at the CDC I
just was kind of in love.
I was like who would want towork anywhere else?
I think I love the idea ofpublic health and that space
(11:42):
just being able to impact notjust domestic but international,
so the global public healthspace, and just being able to
just learn and be supportive ofour domestic and international
partners.
As a biology major, a personwho's always loved science and
math, once I got a chance tolearn about public health it
just kind of took over fromthere Got it.
(12:03):
I love that Okay.
Speaker 2 (12:04):
So I want to be mindful that you also have
another full-time role, and wehaven't really dove into that
role yet, so we'd love to hear alittle bit more about kind of
what that role is, how you cameto have two full-time roles and
what that looks like for you.
Speaker 1 (12:18):
Yeah, it looks like a lot of balancing, quite a bit
of a balancing act, but it worksbecause there's ebbs and flows
on both sides, so it works outreally well.
You know, it is my first timeworking in a nonprofit.
On that side of things, my weekinvolves sort of a mix of, I
would say, strategic planning,engaging with diverse
stakeholders, finding financesto support the nonprofit,
(12:43):
leadership, engagement,leadership development,
collaborating with partners,advocating for policies that you
know ensure women of color arein the spaces that they need to
be in.
So I would say you know abalance of meetings, research,
mentoring, fundraising, you know, kind of all of those things.
And it's funny because when I Iremember telling my dad about
this job.
So I was on the board of thisorganization first and then got
(13:06):
asked to step in as the interimdirector and then stayed as the
ED, my dad sent me a bunch ofbooks about, you know, being how
to be a good ED and you know,interactions with the board and
all of those kinds of things andraising money for nonprofits.
And it wasn't until about a weeklater that it hit me that I was
like, hold on, wait a minute,my dad was actually an ED and I
(13:29):
didn't realize that that was hisjob title because he was that
when I was a kid so I just knewhe worked at a nonprofit.
I didn't, you know.
I knew he ran it, but I reallydidn't think about what his job
title was and so it didn't hitme till he sent me all these
books.
And it didn't really.
It didn't occur to me at firstbecause my dad has a huge
library, always has the wholetime.
You know as much as I've been akid, he, he always had lots and
lots of books, so it didn'tsurprise me that he had these
(13:51):
books.
But then I thought about it.
I was like, wait a minute, youweren't eating when I was
growing up.
This is absolutely crazy.
It was really enjoyable to makethat connection again as well.
Speaker 2 (13:59):
I love those full circle moments and you're
basically still passing down.
I mean, it sounds like thatlevel of service was instilled
in you early right and you'restill working both on the
federal government side and onthe nonprofit side.
And you know, I'm sure that'snot coincidental, I'm sure
that's much more exposure andwhat you were privy to and kind
(14:21):
of what values were instilled inyou then.
Speaker 1 (14:22):
Yeah, it definitely was for us all full circle,
because I never even thought ofit when I was a kid, didn't even
occur to me, never even reallythought about those words.
Honestly, that's awesome.
Speaker 2 (14:31):
No, that makes sense to me.
So tell me about this role now.
So I understand that you wereon the board and I can see how.
If you're on the board of anorganization and they're looking
for an executive director, Ican see why you would step up
and say you know what I could dothis in the interim Because, as
part of the board.
One, that's part of yourresponsibilities.
Two, you want to make sure thatthe organization thrives and
(14:51):
succeeds right, and you want toset them up for success.
Help me understand how youarrived at the conclusion that
you can actually like balanceboth full-time roles.
Speaker 1 (15:00):
You know, I think I just had to do it.
So I think it was one of thosethings where, when I was asked
to step in as interim, I waslike, given my skillset and
ability to manage emergenciesand pandemics and other things,
I can do this.
So I think it was a matter ofsort of stepping in from the
perspective of really looking atsort of what were the needs,
sort of emergent needs, and thenthinking about sort of
(15:23):
assessing what the needs of theorganization were going forward.
So I sort of just decided thatI could apply the skill sets
that I use regularly, just, youknow, use those over the course
of that next year as I wasworking for the nonprofit, and
so that's what I did, did sortof a needs assessment, I guess
you could say, of theorganization, and that's what I
did for the first year.
(15:43):
And then, after that year,decided to reapply to be the
executive director, decided Iwanted to finish what I started,
I guess you could say.
And here I am.
Speaker 2 (15:55):
I love this right Because I think sometimes we
mentally set limits andboundaries on what we could do
right, and you have this longcareer at the CDC and you find
ways to balance your bandwidthright and you recognize I've
seen people that have eithertheir side hustle or a side
business or even if it's anonprofit, it's their nonprofit
(16:15):
that they've started right.
You went another route.
You went to leadership on theboard level to then saying you
know what?
I can actually help supportthis organization as a full-time
role.
And I appreciate that because Ithink a lot of us need to hear
that we can extend beyond whatwe think is the normal bandwidth
.
I probably don't recommend it tomost of us, but I do think
(16:35):
there's a universe where we tendto limit, kind of, what our
contributions can be.
But if you can balance the two,why not?
Right, like, why not, why notbe this epidemiologist working
for the federal government andalso an executive director of a
nonprofit?
So you know, I just reallyappreciate when folks take the
leadership and say you know what?
I don't want to set limits onmyself and this is all tied into
(16:57):
the impact that I want to give.
Speaker 1 (16:58):
And I had asked a couple of my friends about it
because I was like, am I crazy?
And they were like.
They were like this is perfectfor you, and I think that was
the other thing is it seemedlike a natural progression and
so it was weird.
It was weird because it waslike this doesn't make any sense
, but it was almost like it justkind of got dropped in my lap
intentionally.
It was odd to say no.
(17:19):
So it just kind of felt naturaland so I'm really happy that I
did it Really enjoy both ofthose spaces and they you know
to your point about sort ofservice, and so they really sort
of just fulfill both of thethings that I love.
And I guess it's that serviceand also sort of the academic
side of being a scientist that Ienjoy.
Speaker 2 (17:37):
Tell me more about the nonprofit.
What type of services do youprovide, like?
What do you all do?
Speaker 1 (17:40):
Yeah.
So WCAPS has a breadth ofthings.
We have mentorship programs,pipeline programs.
We also have initiatives thatwe have that focus on DEI.
We have a number of partneringevents that we do, such as
webinars, seminars.
We basically do whatever it iswe can to support, all the way
(18:02):
from K-12 to mid-career women ofcolor in the space of peace,
security and conflicttransformation, to ensure that
they have a seat at the tableand not just a seat, but an
active voice in all levels ofchange and policy change and
being change makers and thoughtleaders and really force
multipliers in this space ofpeace, security and conflict
(18:23):
transformation.
So the goal is to make surethat we stand behind those women
in those spaces to move thingsin the direction that they need
to be in, to ensure that ourvoices are heard and our
experiences are heard and valuedand recognized.
Speaker 2 (18:35):
That's great.
Is this a national organization, and how big are you all?
Speaker 1 (18:38):
It is.
There's 2,000 plus members.
We have international chaptersas well as domestic ones, so it
is definitely an internationalorganization.
It's based in the US, butdefinitely open globally, and
our pipeline program has youngwomen from all over the world,
so it's very exciting to seethose women grow.
It's exciting to work withwomen who are seasoned in this
(19:01):
space as well to get theirwisdom on you know how we make
progress in this space and, justbroadly, really exciting to
work with just a vast array ofwomen of color who are just
doing so many wonderful things.
Speaker 2 (19:11):
Can you tell me both what are your favorite parts of
this role and the mostchallenging part of being an
executive director of this typeof organization?
Speaker 1 (19:18):
Oh, so I think favorite parts are the people
that I get to meet and theservice component.
My least favorite part wouldhave to be the fundraising piece
, I think just with a federalbackground it's just not
something we do and then I haveto do on a regular basis.
So that probably was my leastfavorite part and I hope I can
say that.
Speaker 2 (19:36):
No, that's fair.
I'm sure many executivedirectors are aligned with you
on that.
They like the organization,they like the work, and I'm sure
there are challenges with that.
So how do you get better atboth of these things, because
those are two very differentbackgrounds having
epidemiologists and now runningan organization?
What have you done in continueto grow or like, fill in any
(19:56):
gaps, from scientists tononprofit leadership?
Speaker 1 (20:01):
I continue to learn.
I consider myself a servantleader, but I also consider
myself a lifelong learner.
So those books my dad sent me Iread, continue to take courses
online.
I make sure I strategicallyplace mentors in my life that
have expertise in many spaces sothat when I hit roadblocks of
things and I may not have asmuch experience and I'm able to
(20:22):
get the support that I need tobe successful in that space.
And also making sure you'repositioning the people around
you that also are experts in thespaces that you're not, because
we're not going to be expertsin everything.
So we make sure we haveadvisors and the people around
us who know those spaces and sothey can be supportive of us.
So that is generally what Imake sure I try to do.
Speaker 2 (20:41):
That makes sense.
And I mean, you're also youhave a master's in public health
, right?
Yes, where did you get that?
And also you also have a PhD.
So you know, we'd love to makesure that we cover that.
And I know you've also done agood number of, or some,
fellowships, and I know thatbecause we went through one and
that's how you and I gotconnected.
But I think I think all ofthese things combined are part
(21:03):
of like what prepares you forthese types of moments when,
when, then, you step intofurther in your career.
Speaker 1 (21:08):
Yes, absolutely.
So I would start with myundergraduate degree, which I
have, a bachelor's of scienceand biology from Clark Atlanta
University, very proud of myHBCU and I did an internship
called Project MHOTEP the summerafter I graduated.
Mhotep is run through MorehousePublic Health Science Institute
, which was started by Dr BillJenkins and my advisor for that
(21:30):
program.
His name is Dr Frank Richardsand he works on a disease called
river blindness.
That was my sort of like realsort of main dipping into the
CDC because he was actually atCDC.
So I spent a summer workingwith him and so that was my
initial sort of entrance intoreal CDC work.
But after I got to under ed Iwas really thinking I was going
(21:53):
to medical school and thenrealized how much I really just
like the smell of hospitals,like from the soap to the like,
everything I was like this isnot going to work, decided that
I needed to sort of think aboutyou know what are the other
things in biology and science Icould do, and I really didn't
want to be in a lab because Ihad been in the lab.
I had one of my faculty.
I worked for him in the lab andI really enjoyed it.
(22:14):
I really liked working for him,but I knew that I didn't just
want to be in the lab.
And then a friend of mine askedme to take a biostats class,
and during taking that biostatsclass, my TA for that class
actually was in this program andthat's how I got introduced to
public health.
And so after that, justeverything just changed at that
point.
So I would say there, and thenafter I had this exposure to
(22:38):
epidemiology in particular, thenI had to decide OK, so what is
the shift in my career going tolook like now?
So that's how I ended upapplying to schools of public
health and I did my master's inpublic health and epidemiology
at the University of Michiganand had an amazing supervisor
there.
And then I decided thatdefinitely was going to do a
(22:58):
doctoral degree there.
And then I decided thatdefinitely was going to do a
doctoral degree.
So at that particular time myactually my my advisor at U of M
, dr Sherman James he's amazing.
I still keep in touch with allof these people.
There were only a couple ofprograms that were really sort
of focusing on epidemiology atthe time, and so I ended up
applying to Harvard School ofPublic Health and so that's
where I got my it's actually anSTD, a doctorate of science had
(23:19):
a wonderful advisor there, lisa,and many, many other amazing
faculty there as well.
So really from biology to non I, you know I did a lot of other
training programs at CDC as well.
I did programs on metaleadership and other programs
and then, once I got to sort ofthe space of being in nonprofit,
(23:42):
shaped this public health,global public health, then
intersection of global publichealth, and then peace and
security and advocacy you knowsort of trajectory of things.
Speaker 2 (24:05):
Yeah, so let's tell the world what ICAP is, because
I do think it was a remarkableprogram.
Speaker 1 (24:09):
Yeah, so International Career Advancement
Program.
You know it's interestingbecause I wasn't sure what to
expect from ICAP and what,because I think you know the
description of it is formid-career sort of professionals
, and but what I felt was thatit was going to give me that
sort of network and backgroundto really sort of dig deep into
(24:31):
sort of the international peace,security, conflict
transformation and policy sideof things which I don't have an
extensive background in, and soI really felt like it did, like
it did give me that.
So it allowed me.
First of all, it also made merealize that nobody told me
about being a foreign serviceofficer, and so that was the
other interesting thing I feellike I learned from being in
ICAP, that I was like, wait aminute, this is another career
(24:52):
path I could have taken andactually I realized I still
can't have another 10 years todecide if I want to do it.
Speaker 2 (24:57):
And you have the background with the conflict
resolution that I'm sure willcome into play.
Speaker 1 (25:01):
Yes, yes.
So I would really be excitedabout sort of being an
ambassador.
I think that would be a reallycool dream job at some point,
maybe before I retire.
I just really felt like it gavethat background and experience
and an opportunity to learn fromso many other people in the
field and the space who areworking in these areas, and that
was just really great.
It just opened up just a wholenother door to other
(25:23):
opportunities and partners andnow some of those same people,
their organizations I'm tryingto figure out how we can do
something together with WCAPSand collaborate on something and
it's just kind of really openedup, I think, the door of
knowledge and information toother opportunities in this
space and what others are doing.
Speaker 2 (25:40):
Quite frankly, Absolutely, and I think for
folks that are specificallyinterested in, I would say
foreign service is primarilylike the State Department are
folks that are there, but Ithink either government or
nonprofits or philanthropy,specific folks that care about,
like the DEI lens component ofit and just having a network of
folks that are dedicated to thattype of work Definitely
(26:01):
encourage folks to look at ICAP.
We, we formed a really strongbond with folks there in our
week over in Aspen, which thatin itself is a good selling
point, but it definitely wasjust a just a great time with
some really good humans that arededicating their careers to in
equitable ways in differentparts of the world.
So you know, so that part wasgreat.
(26:22):
Tell me more about some ofthese books and resources.
Right, you mentioned you read alot to stay on top of things.
Can you recommend any books orresources that have helped you
personally or professionally?
Speaker 1 (26:34):
So I have a lot more books than I read.
Let me start by saying that Iwas having this conversation
yesterday.
I am a connoisseur of books.
I love books.
I think I love and I loveauthors that are persons of
color.
I often see books that I'm likeoh, I have to have that book, I
need to have it in my library.
I tend to like I have a lot ofpoetry books, I have a lot of
(26:56):
self-care books, books likeCrucial Conversations, plus also
a lot of just kind of historybooks.
And then if you were to look atmy collection of books that I
have for my kids, that's just awhole nother level of sort of
books that I have, and some ofthem, quite frankly, are not
just for my kids, they're for mebecause I really love them as
well.
I'm trying to think is thereanything in particular?
No, I mean really I just kindof read sort of what I'm feeling
(27:18):
at the time.
There is a book, you know, byone of my mentors.
Her name is Octavia Rahim andshe focuses a lot on rest.
That has sort of been the bookthat I keep in my bag, my
luggage, you know, in that, andshe's coming out with a new one.
Any of her three books arebooks that I keep with me and
(27:40):
travel with me, because it helpsme really think a little bit
more about not just balance butalso harmony and keeping myself
going and allowing myself torest and pause, and so I would
say that in this, in this partof my life and career, those
have been kind of reallyimportant for me these days.
Speaker 2 (27:53):
And as.
Speaker 1 (27:53):
I get older, quite frankly, managing, you know,
work, life, family and all ofthat.
Speaker 2 (28:04):
So this can be for both of your roles.
You know, both as someone thathas dedicated their career to
working at the CDC, at a federalagency, and as someone that is
running in, that is, anexecutive director of a
nonprofit with global membershipand impact in different ways.
You know how much money canfolks expect to make in these
types of careers.
Speaker 1 (28:17):
Yeah, you know that's an interesting question.
So I think most federal jobs,like in terms of salary range,
is posted.
I think it's public knowledgeand it's funny because it
definitely was one of the thingsI remember talking about some
of my friends when we left gradschool.
They were like, yeah, I'm notgoing to work for the government
, you don't make any money.
I think that's a common themeacross federal agencies and it
(28:38):
also depends, of course, howlong you stay in the government.
So I would say sort of in myspace for both of those things
and on the nonprofit size, itdepends on the resources your
nonprofit has, the size of it,how big it is, how much money is
coming in all of those things.
So I would say, as a range Iwould say for both of them,
(29:01):
given that I've been in my jobwith CDC for over 20 years, I
would say both of them areprobably in the range of 100 to
150, maybe more, again,depending upon I've seen ED jobs
posted online and it's 160, 170, 180.
But again, it depends on theresources of the organization,
how big it is and how much moneythey can, quite frankly, pay
the ED, and so I think it woulddepend.
But after 20 years in thegovernment I would say 100,000
(29:24):
plus is a good space to say youcould be in.
That's what I would say.
Speaker 2 (29:28):
I appreciate that.
No, I think that's superimportant, right?
Because I think a lot of uslook at things like federal
government or government periodand think, well, we're not going
to make any money, it'll begood benefits.
Speaker 1 (29:39):
Benefits are important, absolutely,
absolutely, and I'm glad youbrought that up because I was
going to say there are otherthings that balance it out.
Speaker 2 (29:45):
So tell me more.
Tell me more about why thesebenefits are so good.
Speaker 1 (29:48):
For me, I think that when I was a single mom, when I
started at the CDC, and for meit just provided a level of
stability and security.
I'm also a commission corpsofficer, so I'm a US Public
Health Service commission corpsofficer, so I am active duty
technically.
So I am one of the two unarmedbranches of what we would call
the uniform service.
Most people think about themilitary, that would be the
(30:11):
armed services, and we areunarmed.
It's us and NOAA, butcollectively we are the uniform
service.
So I get paid by my time inservice and my rank.
That determines how much my payis and that too I can look up
online and figure out how much Iwould make at this many years
at this particular rank.
I would say that there arebenefits of stability,
(30:32):
retirement, va benefits andthings like that.
That working for the federalgovernment, I think provides
just a lot of consistency fromthat perspective.
You know health insurancecovered, you know all of those
kinds of things, so I think youknow it can balance it out some
from that perspective.
You know I have a lot offriends that decided to go the
route of academia, but then Ialso didn't want to be locked in
(30:53):
to one working at a universitywhere my salary depended upon
how much money I brought in frommy grant and from my projects,
or, you know, having to dealwith the rigor of trying to get
rank, you know, at an academicinstitution.
And so for me this, just for mywork life balance was just a
lot more.
It made more sense for my lifeat the time to go the federal
(31:15):
government route.
Speaker 2 (31:16):
That makes sense.
What advice would you have forsomeone that's looking to work
in the federal government and,you know, have some of these
hesitations?
Speaker 1 (31:23):
I think my advice comes back to you have to do
what's best for your life.
Age plays a role in that.
Family status plays a role inthat.
Like I said, I was a single momat the time, and so, you know,
my daughter had been with me inall of my moving of cities and
states and all of my degreeprograms since undergrad, and so
at that point I really justwanted to have some stableness
(31:47):
for her at that point, and sothat provided that for me.
So, really, you know, I thinkthe decision comes down to you
know again, what is it that youwant for your career?
So me working at the CDC whichI loved anyway was fine with me,
and it was OK that I worked forthe federal government.
At that point I just needed todecide whether or not I wanted
to be a civil servant or Ireally wanted to be active duty
(32:09):
and part of the commission corps, and I felt that, career-wise,
being part of the commissioncorps also had benefits that
allowed me to be part of anactivated core of individuals
that support public healthresponses, and so I really felt
like I wanted to do that.
So I think, at the end of theday, you have to do the things
that are best for your life andthe balance of what you have
(32:29):
going on in your life and whatyou want for your career down
the road and the flexibilitythat you think you might want
ahead.
I have friends that are stillteaching at universities, and
academia is all they wanted todo, and so that was perfect for
them, and I think this hasreally been a flexibility for me
that I really enjoy being ableto move around the agency and do
different things and still beinvolved in global public health
(32:51):
more broadly.
Speaker 2 (32:52):
Are either of your two roles what you thought you
were going to be doing when youwere younger?
Speaker 1 (32:56):
thought you were going to be doing when you were
younger.
No, as I said, I really thoughtI was going to medical school,
you know.
So I'm a PK, I'm a preacher'skid and spent a lot of time at
church, at church events,traveling to church conventions
and things like that with my dadand family.
And science has always been,you know, my love, and so I have
(33:17):
not.
I've never wavered from that.
My mom loved to travel, so Iknew at some point you know,
probably you know traveling wasgoing to be something that I
wanted to be part of.
You know my career at somepoint.
But other than that, really sortof had just really had this
whole medical school thing inmind.
And, like I said, it wasn'tuntil I got to undergrad and was
really like this is not goingto play out the way I thought it
(33:39):
was.
So I had to think of somethingdifferent and it took me.
I guess my sophomore year iswhen my friend asked me to take
this biostats class, because thefirst year I just was like you
know what?
You know, I have time, I'llfigure it out and then when I
took this class, it just allkind of made sense that public
health was the route for me.
So I really never had thoughtabout anything else growing up
other than my dad's a preacher,a Baptist minister, his twin
(34:00):
sister is, my aunts and unclesare also ministers.
That was definitely not a routeI was going to go, and so this
was really the only other option, and so never really thought
about anything else, quitefrankly.
Speaker 2 (34:10):
Are you involved in anything else outside of work
that either brings you passionand joy or that you help support
with some of your expertise?
That could be a board, thatcould be a membership somewhere.
That could be anything that youthink just kind of helps fill
your cup and also provide someof your knowledge to others.
Speaker 1 (34:32):
I am actually on another board that allows me to
share my expertise and knowledgeand passion.
I love going to museums.
I love art.
That is really a thing thatreally brings me joy.
Music I love music and Iabsolutely love to travel.
Even though I try to get as muchtravel from work as possible, I
absolutely just love theexposure to various cultures.
I mean, just everything aboutit just makes me just really
excited.
I guess it's a bug I got frommy mom that I didn't realize I
(34:55):
had till I got older.
But my oldest daughter, who is31, also loves to travel, which
I guess is a bug she got from me.
So she even travels by herselfto go on vacations when she
needs to.
She is fluent in Spanish, andso she just came back from
Mexico.
She loves Cuba.
She's been to Medellin inColombia, and so she really just
(35:17):
loves also just kind of beingin the world and I enjoy that as
well.
So I would say you know anythingin the space of art.
So, like every time we go outof the country or even just out
of the state, we try to find amuseum while we're there.
I usually have a tendency tofigure out all of the places
we're going to eat while we'rethere.
So food.
So I would say culture, food,art, music and travel are the
(35:39):
things that really, really makeme happy.
Speaker 2 (35:41):
How can people support the nonprofit that
you're the executive directorfor?
Speaker 1 (35:45):
Yes, so wcapsorg W-C-A-P-Sorg Please visit the
website.
You can support by being amember.
You are able to supportfinancially and we welcome all
allies to the organization tosupport the work that we're
doing in partnerships and manyother avenues that you could do
to support WCAPS.
(36:06):
We are very open to women ofcolor and, like I said, other
allies as well that aresupporting making sure that the
voices of women of color areheard in that space.
Speaker 2 (36:17):
Is there anything else we haven't covered today
that the world should know aboutyou?
Speaker 1 (36:20):
Let's see, I was born and raised in Pittsburgh and I
am an avid Steelers fan.
There's nothing you can tell methat would not make me think
about anybody else other thanthe Steelers, no matter where
I've lived.
I've lived in Massachusetts, Ihave lived in, I live in Atlanta
I'm not a Braves fan oranything else that has to do
with Atlanta.
I have lived in Michigan, so,but there's nothing you could do
(36:42):
to change my love for theSteelers.
I have an active member card,for it's called the Steel City
Mafia, and I have Steelers allover my truck.
I would say, yes, that's theonly other thing I can think of.
And so you know.
It's funny because when I lookat some of my family, like
online and things that they'reposting, they all have black and
gold on all the time and myhusband thinks it's much.
(37:03):
It's definitely a cult, butyeah, so that's the only thing I
can think of.
I have three other siblings.
I am from a very big family.
Both my parents have more thaneight siblings and so just grew
up around a lot of family and Ihave three children that span
(37:23):
the ages of 31 to 12.
And I'm over 50, which I amabsolutely delighted about, and
I know a lot of people don'tlike talking about their age,
but when I turned 50, I wasabsolutely ecstatic.
So it is one thing that I feelvery proud of and I love what I
do.
I love my family, I love what Ido, I love life, I love trying
(37:46):
to figure out how to get tolearn about something new and
how to be somewhere and how totravel somewhere else.
I have been to places I've nevereven heard of.
I've been to Montenegro, whichis in the Balkans, which I had
never heard of.
I've been to Brunei, and I hopeto just kind of continue to
live a life of service and joyand meet other wonderful people
(38:07):
like yourselves and other peoplein our ICAP class and just
continue to grow the network fornothing else than to just
really know and meet reallyother awesome people.
So I was really sort of excitedbut also nervous to be on the
podcast because, I told you,once I listened to some of the
other people you had on there, Iwas like man, these people are
amazing.
So I'm really, really happy tobe here and very, very proud of
(38:29):
you for doing this career cheatcode.
I think it's really awesome anda wonderful thing that you are
doing for our community as well.
Speaker 2 (38:36):
Thank you, I appreciate it.
I just think you know amazingpeople should connect and
amazing people should behighlighted, so thank you for
joining us today.
I really appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (38:43):
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 2 (38:44):
I hope you enjoyed this episode.
If you did and believe on themission we're on, please like,
rate and subscribe to thispodcast on whatever platform
you're using, and share thispodcast with your friends and
your networks.
Make sure you follow us onInstagram and LinkedIn at Career
Cheat Code and tell us peopleor careers you would like to see
highlighted.
See you next week with somemore cheat codes.
Peace.
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