076 | The Path To Impact with Faouzi Talabi and Roland Kennedy Jr - Career Cheat Code

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
I remember when I was graduating college I was like,
hey, I know I want to do yourjob, so I'm just going to apply
to jobs and foundations.
He's like why?
And I had to go through thatexercise of explaining like,
well, I saw the work that youdid, I saw what that can do, I
want to just be part of that.
And he's like great, but go getgood at something and then
bring that to philanthropy.
Don't just show up with noexperience and don't just show

(00:22):
up with no like perspectives onhow different sectors
interconnect or how thingshappen.
Right, like, go do somethingand then that'll help you narrow
.
If, ultimately, you still wantto get into philanthropy, kind
of in what sector right?

Speaker 2 (00:36):
Welcome to Career Cheat Code.
In this podcast, you'll hearhow everyday people impact the
world through their careers.
Learn about their journey,career hacks and obstacles along
the way.
Whether you're already havingthe impact you want or are
searching for it, this is thepodcast for you.

Speaker 1 (00:50):
All.
Right, gentlemen, welcome tothe show.
Good afternoon, good afternoon,good afternoon.
Appreciate you all taking thetime to connect today and really
discuss your careers.
This is a very special episodein that it is a different format
than most of the listeners areused to.
We're having two folks herethat have a relationship
together and also understandkind of the world of
philanthropy together and aregoing to help us unpack that and

(01:13):
talk about a career inphilanthropy, what that looks
like and kind of theirexperiences in different sides
of philanthropy and withdifferent functions.
So, without further ado, let'sstart with some introductions.
Roland, tell the world who youare and what you do for a living
.

Speaker 3 (01:26):
Great Thanks for adding.
Thanks for having me, rolandKennedy Jr.
I'm the Grants Director at theCarnegie Corporation of New York
, so my day-to-day looks likemanaging three incredible people
two managers, one coordinator,covering our international
grantmaking as well as ournational grantmaking, the Andrew
Carnegie Fellows as well assome executive funds.
So for me, my role reallycovers the day-to-day of the

(01:49):
grants management, as well astwo other unique opportunities
within that, including boardoperations, and I get to program
manage the relationship withthe Carnegie Archives at
Columbia University.
That's what my day-to-day lookslike.

Speaker 1 (02:01):
Awesome.
That sounds fun.
Fauzi, what's going on on yourend?
What do you normally do on anice Monday morning?

Speaker 4 (02:07):
Yeah, great question.
So, fawzi Talabi, I work for asmaller family foundation and
when I say smaller it's more sostaff size rather than endowment
but based out of Boston, and myrole as a program associate is
kind of wearing multiple hats.
So I get the privilege ofoverseeing a smaller capital

(02:28):
grants program, but thenadditionally, I get to learn a
lot about the grants managementside of the work.
So I get to oversee the grantsmanagement support, other
program officers in theirday-to-day tasks, and then a lot
of working with the community,listening, kind of corresponding
with them, hearing what theirneeds are.
It's really a great opportunityfor me to kind of just learn

(02:50):
the ins and outs of philanthropyand see where my kind of career
can take me.

Speaker 1 (02:55):
That's great.
I always think it's interestingfor folks to understand how
people know each other.
Can you all speak briefly tohow you all know each other and
then I can chime in on how Iknow both of you?

Speaker 4 (03:06):
Yeah, sure, I guess I can start.
So when I first entered thesector, I was fortunate enough
that I got an opportunity to goto a conference in Baltimore and
that conference is really acollective of grant makers and
more so grant managers, more sogrant managers.
So with that being my role andbeing so new to the space and

(03:26):
the sector, I was kind of lost,didn't know exactly where my
footing was and who my peoplewere.
And I was fortunate enough tomeet Roland and another
gentleman that I still speakfrequently with, stephen Casey,
and they kind of took me underthe wing.
Just due to the fact that theykind of saw that I felt lost at

(03:48):
times, didn't know exactly ifthis was the right career for me
or the job for me, and I reallyneeded those individuals that
had been through it, knewexactly kind of how to navigate
the waters and super gratefulthat I found them, because at
that point in time I didn't knowif I was going to make it
another week, but it was really.

(04:08):
I met them at the right timeand super grateful for that.

Speaker 3 (04:12):
Yeah, and Fauzi and I , since meeting some few years
ago, are now formally in amentee mentor program through
Peak Grantmaking called theArnetta Praw Mentorship Program,
and that has been going verywell.
As somebody who is in the PeakNew England chapter, I think
it's called there's not a greatdeal of Black representation in

(04:35):
that chapter and so I think tohave the opportunity to formally
be in a mentor, menteerelationship with FALSE has been
beneficial.
We are both learning throughthat process and I think it's
great that peak grant making hascreated that opportunity.

Speaker 1 (04:48):
That's great and I will say, you know, I think
there's so much value in both ofyou joining those types of
programs, right as a mentor andas a mentee, to be able to have
dialogue with folks around.
Maybe it's not exactly theexact role that you've had
before, but you've been inphilanthropy for long enough
that you can kind of helpinstill some of that knowledge
and try to help folks avoid someof the bumps that you may have

(05:09):
had along the way.
Right, and then on the menteerelationship right, it's how do
I learn about the field?
How do I hone in to understandif this is where I want to stay
Right?
Is this even the type of jobthat I want to continue to do?
Because you're building yourcareer and you're thinking about
how you want to have impact andwhat you bring to the table.
So it's just a very you knowgreat time in your career to

(05:31):
build that.
For those that don't know whatis PEAK, yeah, so PEAK
Grantmaking is a nationalnonprofit that stands for
Principles, equity, advocacy andKnowledge.

Speaker 3 (05:39):
So it is the premier nonprofit, I think, nationally
that focuses on equitable grantmaking practices in the
philanthropy sector.

Speaker 1 (05:46):
That's great.
And, roland, do you want totell the audience how you and I
got connected?

Speaker 3 (05:50):
Yeah, so we got connected, I believe during your
time at Rockefeller Foundationwhen you were on the economic
mobility team.
Do I have that right, Correct?
And then formally got reengagedthrough the collective, the
Black Men in PhilanthropyNetwork that has been growing
for the last three years, whichbrings together brothers in the

(06:11):
philanthropy sector, from grants, management, program evaluation
, learning, impact comms,investments, finance, legal all
the above to make sure that weall know each other and build
community together.

Speaker 1 (06:23):
That's great, and we just have Steven Minix on the
show from that collective aswell, right, who you know.
I think the value of such agroup right is this is a
volunteer run.
Folks like yourself and othersare like spending time to
understand that it is importantto cultivate spaces for people
in the field and like, how do wecreate a space for brothers to

(06:44):
just talk about the wins, thelosses, the gripes, the stripes,
all of the things right?
And how do we support eachother, how do we help each other
?
How do we co-fund together?
How do we, you know, thinkabout opportunities in the field
together?
How do we just recognize that?
You know, the history of thefield is not necessarily for us,
right, and you know, I thinkabout that often as some,

(07:05):
especially for some of us that,like some of the larger
foundations, like if some ofthese folks that left that
wealth in the 1920s realize whowas managing some of their money
, like they'll be rolling in theraves Right, but like we create
now a space to acknowledgethings like that and also
recognize how we can leveragethe field to to impact
communities, right, and to beintentional about communities
and a lot of these organizationsbecause of maybe that was the

(07:28):
history, right, but theleadership there is not like
that, right, and the leadershipthere may think very
progressively about how tosupport communities.
So I just really appreciate thatspace that has been cultivated
now over the last few years andjust welcoming me, over the last
year, fauci, as you said, right, I've been in my career for
over 15 years or so, but inphilanthropy for less than three

(07:49):
, right, so, like, how do Irecognize my network?
How do I understand what folkslike about the field and the
different iterations ofphilanthropy?
Right, so many different typesof foundations.

Speaker 4 (07:59):
No, I was going to say yeah, there's so many
instances.
So I used to work in thenonprofit space and I've been
wearing multiple hats and it'skind of the same thing.
But the nuance behind the work,right, and the rationale behind
the work coming from one sideyou don't really know it and
being on this other side it'sstill a learning curve and I
think that having those peoplethat have been there done that

(08:21):
is super important for anyonethat wants to try to make it in
the sector.

Speaker 1 (08:29):
So for both of you how did you get into
philanthropy and like did youknow about philanthropy?

Speaker 4 (08:31):
as you were stepping into it, I would say no, I did
not know what philanthropy wasor how to get into it.
Now, like I shared, I wasworking in the nonprofit sector,
so I should have had a littlebit of an inclination on where
the money was coming from.
But at that point in time I wasreally focused on the
programmatic side of the work.
My kind of story into thissector is that after the

(08:53):
pandemic and COVID I took abreak about a year and a half
break moved down to Atlanta andstarted working and creating a
nonprofit down there.
When I came back up to Boston Iwas working in hospitality and
just didn't know exactly what Iwanted to do.
But I knew that it had to bemission-driven, it had to be
people-centered and it had to bereally an opportunity for me to

(09:14):
get back into the community andwork with youth or be connected
in changing some of thenarrative for those that I used
to work with, some of thenarrative for those that I used
to work with.
So I was fortunate enough thatsomeone randomly called me while
I was at the hotel and I tookthe call.
Usually I don't pick up arandom number, but I did.
Got super lucky that they sawvalue in my previous experiences

(09:38):
Just being in the directservice line of work.
I think anyone that is of thatkind of space and has that
experience brings a lot to thetable for nonprofits but also
for foundations, as they'retrying to kind of understand
what it is that the communityneeds.
You've lived it, you understandit and you speak that language.

(09:59):
A lot of times folks on thephilanthropic side, they don't
speak that language so it'sharder to build those
connections.
So that's that was kind of myintroduction into it and yeah,
definitely not the traditionalpath.

Speaker 3 (10:11):
Yeah, my path is not that dissimilar from Fauzi's.
You know, I was working ingovernment and so, as the saying
goes, and specificallylegislative government, which
has been the nearly 100 percentof my experience working in
government, is all legislative.
And as the saying goes, if yourboss loses, you have no job or
you have to go through adifferent process to find a new

(10:36):
role in legislative government.
If you're a member of Congresswhether that's the state
legislature or federal loses,it's not as seamless to go from
one role to the next in somecases.
So for me, I had to rethink whatmy next steps were, what my
career was going to be, andthankfully it was a friend of
mine from college that sent me ajob description that I didn't

(10:58):
even have an imagination for andI applied for it.
Didn't get the initial job butgot a callback similar to what
Fauzi said some two to threeweeks later and did get a role,
one that I didn't even apply for.
And it was a fascinatingjourney since and it's been 10
years in this work acrossdifferent types of organizations

(11:19):
, from donor advised funds toliving donors to now an
endowment type of foundation.
So it's opened my lens and mymind to different aspects of
philanthropy, what's possible,some of the things that aren't
as possible, the C3 side, the501c4 side, and getting a full
sense of what philanthropiccapital can really do, what it's

(11:42):
supposed to to do, and reallythinking in broad, big picture
steps in terms of what my careerin this work should be and then
how it connects to purpose.
I think for me, anything thatI've ever done is purpose driven
and purpose built.
I don't like to do anythingjust for flex.
It has to be something that'sservice oriented.
That's what I'm used to.
It's what I come from, from myfamily, from my parents and

(12:04):
grandparents.
And so, for me, philanthropyspecifically the side of
philanthropy that I care mostabout, which have to do with
electoral democracy, economicjustice, media journalism, press
freedom and education funding,whether in the US or elsewhere,
those are the topics that Ithink about and wake up thinking
about, go to sleep thinkingabout.
Are those topics?

(12:25):
So any sort of funding aspectthat's focused on that?
The more I've learned aboutwhere those opportunities are in
the sector, the more I'mconnected to it, and so, going
from government, you know, athousand and one years ago
through today, that's been thethread and the theme throughout
my career, because those are thethings I know that I will bring
my most authentic self to.

Speaker 1 (12:50):
So to me, you know, regardless of whether it's
government or philanthropy, thepurpose has been the same, but I
had to find that, and I didn'tknow that philanthropy would be
one of the vehicles to be ableto do that- Absolutely, and I
think that's so important, right, because a lot of us are very
mission driven, very purposedriven, and we sometimes just
don't know the different avenuesthat we can channel that Right.
Right, like, how do weunderstand that?
I was fortunate enough to knowabout philanthropy when I was 16
years old.

(13:10):
I was in a high school inHarlem and we were a public
school with a very savvyprincipal that secured
philanthropic funds forprogramming.
So we had lacrosse teams,robotics, chess teams, a bunch
of mentorship programs right,and college-ready programs
specifically.
So I saw the value inphilanthropy really early on.

(13:32):
Right, I was able to reallyconnect with someone at a
foundation and understand howthe levers can work, what their
role meant at least from what Icould understand at age 16,
right, like, I saw theprogramming, I saw the end
results, but understanding fromthe macro and all of that it
took me a little while afterthat.
I was at least fortunate enoughto be exposed to philanthropy

(13:54):
early on.
But I realized a lot of pathsare usually more like YouTube,
right, where you stumble upon itor you realize if you're
mission-driven and you're doingwork in nonprofit, direct
services or in government, yourealize there are other factors
at play and you then tap intothat.
Would love to hear from a morefunctional standpoint, right?

(14:15):
So, like for me, I got my roleat Rockefeller by applying on
LinkedIn.
I didn't know anyone there, Ijust applied blindly and was
called back because I hadexperience with government and
experience of developing thetypes of programs that we were
funding in my team at the time.
Applied blindly and was calledback because I had experience
with government and experiencedeveloping the types of programs
that we were funding in my teamat the time.
We'd love to hear what you allthink you brought to the table
and I want to be clear about it,because I think there are

(14:37):
people that are trying to pivotinto this space and would love
for them to hear how they canposition themselves to
ultimately get into philanthropy.

Speaker 4 (14:44):
Would love for them to hear kind of how they can
position themselves toultimately get into philanthropy
.
Yeah, so I actually want tolead with something that I
recently came across thatanother gentleman told me about,
and he said I was struggling ina sense with kind of my
day-to-day tasks and he said yougot to give yourself grace,
right, give yourself gracebecause you are new to this

(15:05):
space or you may not knoweverything Nobody knows
everything, right but you havecertain values and you have
certain experiences that haveshaped you and are invaluable to
whoever it is that you'reworking with and for.
So I think that that is kind ofwhere I would like to believe

(15:26):
was, or I'd like to think thatthat was, the main driving force
into why I was hired Along with.
I have a college degree, right,you have to have some of the
baselines for most jobs, but atthe same point in time, the
lived experiences, the abilityto communicate with others and I
think, inherently just thegeneral ability to listen, is

(15:48):
super important in the role thatI have on a day-to-day basis.
So for me, I may receiveanywhere from 15 to 20 info
calls a day, and that's from thecommunity externally, and
they're curious about what it isthat we do, how do we operate,
what are the potentialopportunities?
And a lot of times for me Ireally just sit there and listen

(16:11):
, sit there and absorb what itis that their work is focused on
.
Are there any sharedexperiences?
Are there other programs thatwe've kind of funded in the past
that are similar?
And if there aren't, if thereisn't a correlation or if there
isn't an opportunity, it's beingable to kind of redirect them
in the right direction, givethem additional resources to

(16:32):
where they can find that fundingor maybe they can have an
introduction call and startbuilding that relationship.
So my general ability to reallyjust care and want to make sure
that everyone else is succeeding, I think is really really
important in this role.
I think that's one of mystrongest suits and what I bring

(16:55):
to the table here and then alsoadditionally, like I said, I
can do the basic job of grantsmanagement.
I can stay and be task orientedand all of those things that
are kind of required.
But it's the non-shiny objectsthat you're going to put on your
resume, it's the soft skillsthat I think are really

(17:16):
important in how you can besuccessful in this space.

Speaker 3 (17:20):
Yeah like what Falzi said, I think that this sector,
this industry, is somewhat stilla closed door.
I can actually leave out thesomewhat.
It's still a closed door, likea number of other industries,
and I think that you know, themore internship opportunities,
fellowship opportunities you canfind as a pathway into

(17:40):
philanthropy, the better.
There aren't many that exist,especially for people that look
like us.
You know, and I think you know,what the Bowie State
Philanthropy Initiative is doingis a great example of what I
would love to see more of in thesector.
You know, intentionallytargeting creating more diverse
opportunities, especially forblack people, to enter into

(18:00):
philanthropy, and also set thelens of possibility of not just
entering philanthropy for anyjob but as leaders Like.
That's a very differentapproach and thought process,
because I don't know when Ientered this work if I had an
imagination for executiveleadership, because that's not
what I saw.
You know, president,president's offices have

(18:21):
certainly diversified as wellover the last 10 years, but you
know, representation, for thesake of representation, has also
not been quite the bar that Iexpected it to be in
philanthropy.
You know it's a low bar, midbar, high bar, depending on what
you're looking for.
So I think that I would firstgo back to you know what are you
drawn to If you want to work inphilanthropy, why.

(18:42):
You know what is it that youcare about?
Have you targeted the type oforganizations that work on the
issue areas of programs that youcare about?
What type of role do you want?
Do you want to be on the grantsmanagement side, or do you want
to be a grant maker?
Do you want to mix them?
Both those roles also exist,similar to what Fauzi does.
I mean he gets to be in bothboth the grant making and the

(19:02):
grants management side.
He gets to be in both both thegrant making and the grants
management side.
That's a very unicorn type ofrole, but they're out there.
Or do you want to do comms?
Do you want to do evaluation,learning and impact?
Do you want to do investments?
We need more finance andinvestment, diverse finance and
investments, people doing thiswork who are not named Bob,
james or Rob.
True story, I think.
The data is that the majorityof people that do finance and

(19:24):
investments in the philanthropysector have one of those three
names, so you know there'spotential to change that as well
.
It's a very challenging door tobreak down, though, or brick
wall, regardless of how you lookat it.
So I think you know it'sgetting clear on both of your
whys.
What is it that you want to do?
How do you want to go aboutdoing that?
What is it that you want to do?
How do you want to go aboutdoing that?
The role to me is the last partof that equation it's first

(19:46):
getting clear on the why andthen figuring out what type of
role that connects mostly to you, that makes the most sense for
you to step into, and then howto go about doing that and
talking to brothers like us,other people in the sector that
can be trusted and areapproachable and who are also
willing to share some of thegame approachable and who are

(20:07):
also willing to share some ofthe game.
Because, you know, I remindpeople often that this is not
charitable work, you know.
Sure, from the IRS perspectiveand whatnot, yes, there are
charitable rules to giving, butphilanthropy is a type of
business and a type of capital,and so I think, the more that we
emphasize that and the for lackof a better word
professionalism that goes intothinking about it as a career

(20:29):
and a lifestyle, I think thatchanges the way that people
think about approaching thesector and coming into it.
So that would be, you know, myadvice on how to get started
with that conversation and thenlead into whatever that role
looks like that conversation andthen lead into whatever that
role looks like.

Speaker 1 (20:47):
And I love that, right, because that reminds me
of something that you know theperson that I mentioned earlier
that was funding was supportingsome of the work in my high
school.
That person is my mentor now.
Right, and that person has.
I remember when I wasgraduating college I was like,
hey, I know, I want to do yourjob, so I'm just going to apply
to jobs and foundations.
He's like why?
Right, and I had to go throughthat exercise of explaining like

(21:07):
, well, I saw the work that youdid, I saw what that can do, I
want to just be part of that.
And he's like great, but go getgood at something and then
bring that to philanthropy.
Don't just show up with noexperience and don't just show
up with no like perspectives onhow different sectors
interconnect or how thingshappen.
Right, like, go do something.
Happen.

(21:30):
Right, like go do something andthen that'll help you narrow.
If, ultimately, you still wantto get into philanthropy, kind
of in what sector?
Right, because you get intophilanthropy and care about
birds, you can get intophilanthropy and care about
trees, sustainability, youth,work, workforce and businesses.
Right, like, whatever the thingis.
But I think until you kind ofexplore what the value is that
you bring, or if it's systemsright, whatever that looks like

(21:53):
you know to go out there and askyourself those questions first,
understand kind of what, notonly what you want to get out of
philanthropy, but what you'rebringing to philanthropy as well
, so that you can continue toadd value to the field and
change things and become some ofthose folks that are then, as
Roland said, right, giving outsome of the game and supporting
others in their journey.
So that we're a little moreclear, because our roles in

(22:15):
philanthropy are very different.
So when I was at theRockefeller Foundation, my role
was really to be a grant maker,so to find and partner with
organizations that were doingthings on the ground in
different cities, supportingentrepreneurship, supporting
families throughout the country.
But I know that's different foryour roles, right.
So we'd love to also discussthat, because I think it's

(22:36):
important for people tounderstand that there are
different types of roles inphilanthropy and not just a
program officer role, not justwhatever you see as the CEO
that's doing all the interviewssomewhere.
So what do y'all do?
What does your day-to-day looklike?
What are you ultimately taskedwith and responsible for?

Speaker 4 (22:51):
Yeah, I would say that my experience is a little
bit different just due to thefact that I am part of a smaller
team, so it's one of six staffmembers and we are at a family
foundation.
So the root of the work that wedo is really making sure that
our trustees understand and arepart of the process as well of
our grant making right.

(23:12):
That could be the evaluationand making sure they understand
exactly what it is their moneyis doing.
That can be from a programmaticlens and saying what type of
programs do you want to createwithin your portfolios to
execute on your vision and howyou wish to impact the community

(23:32):
?
And then, additionally, for meit's a little bit different
because I do do programmaticwork and I also do do grants
management work.
So, like I shared before, superlucky that I get to learn
multiple different skill setsand wear multiple different hats
on a day-to-day basis.
So let's just say it's a Mondayin the summertime.

(23:55):
It's going to look a little bitdifferent than a Monday in fall
, but Monday in the summertimemight be a lot more
research-based as it kind ofslows down for us.
So it'd be analyzing how ourprograms work this past year,
specifically in my program areaof smaller capital giving,
figuring out what types ofprojects were funded, are there

(24:16):
any trends in regards to whatpeople are requesting, what is
the general number of peopleserved and are there kind of
gaps in our issue areas thatwe're trying to address?
So the other element would beduring like a peak season, I
would call it.
There's a lot of site visits,there's a lot of grant reviews,

(24:39):
application reviews, and thenit's also from a grants
management standpoint.
There are other program areasthat are dispersing funds.
So it's creating the grants inour grants management database,
right.
It's making sure all thetransmittal letters and all of
the other technical elements ofexecuting and actually giving

(25:02):
money out are completed, andthen it's also being ready to
support any program staff as itrelates to board meetings.
So just a general boardpreparation.
So again, like I said, it'swearing a lot of different hats
and learning a lot of differentthings and skill sets.
And time management is now mynew best friend, because without

(25:23):
it you're just not going to besuccessful, right.
But then it's also creatingsystems for yourself to where
you can be more efficient inyour work, right, understanding
kind of where you are in theyear and projecting what your
workload is going to be.
That's something that I'm superpassionate about right now.
It's super random, right.

(25:43):
It's not something that I wouldhave ever thought would be
really important to the workthat I do, but now it's creating
systems, understanding how canI get ahead and then also
learning how to hold othersaccountable and managing up.
So that's one of my biggestgoals this year is creating
those systems so I can manage up.
And I think for anybody that isnew in this space, that may be

(26:06):
at a smaller foundation or eventhat may be in a nonprofit and
wearing multiple hats and youmay have to report up because
everyone is kind of workingtogether Learning the kind of
tools that will allow you to beeffective in managing up is
really paramount to your success, and it's not necessarily just
because you want to get a taskdone, but it's teaching you how

(26:28):
to be an effective leader downthe line.
So I think that those kind ofday-to-day tasks are super,
super important for me and mygrowth, but they also teach you
kind of if you want to be in adifferent role.
They're all transferable skillsthat you will need to be
successful in anything.
It's not just philanthropy, itcould be in the business space.

(26:50):
It could be in healthcare, itcould be anywhere.

Speaker 3 (26:53):
I love that answer because my roles over the years
have covered majority grantsmanagement, but also programs
and comms over the last 10 yearsand I hold on to that greatly
and also don't dismiss mygovernment experience as well,
which was legislative andcommunications as well.
And so I think all that createsa picture into my day-to-day,

(27:16):
because the grants managementside of philanthropy is often
still talked about or deemedadministrative or for lack of a
better term.
But I still hear it as backoffice or support staff and I
resist that and have resistedthat narrative for the last 10
years because I one don't thinkthat roles like that really

(27:38):
speak to the realities of whatthe possibilities of these roles
are For some organizations.
Yes, perhaps that is the case,but I think if you're talking
from the perspective of the top30 or 40 funders in the world
maybe even the top 50, you knowthat is not what these roles
have been, even if that is stillthe belief that many who still

(27:59):
even occupy these roles think,because that has been the
narrative for so long.
So when I approach the work, asyou know, you are a strategic
voice and thought partner withnot for other departments,
including programs which you canoften feel like foundations are
created for and benefit programteams the most, be able to step

(28:30):
into that narrative andleadership style to say yes, but
I also belong in the space andcan think through and speak on
and activate on the very issuesthat we fund.
I might not be the decisionmaker on what gets funded, but
how it gets funded equallymatters both for you, my
colleague and peer, as well asfor the organization overall.
And I think the lens thatgrants professionals see is an

(28:54):
organizational lens, that is animmediate strategy paradigm when
you get to see not just what aparticular team is doing but you
get to see how money flows andcapital moves across the
organization, across differentgrantees, what's being funded,
what's not being funded, howit's going about various
geographies and strategies.

(29:16):
And to not lend a voice to thatis to me the biggest missed
opportunity on the grant sidethat I think this subsector
inside of philanthropy is justcatching up to.
But I'm also mindful that,having been in it the majority
of my time over the last 10years, that it really is the
side of philanthropy that ismost compliant using that word

(29:40):
intentionally to rules,regulations, safety, security
and some of the things that arenot necessarily aligned with
rocking the boat or thinkingoutside of the box, coloring
outside of the lines.
I'm very mindful of that too,and people have to show up where
they are on their variousjourneys.
With that to me, I think Ishowed up from the jump with

(30:03):
that sort of mindset, and it'ssomething that those other
things that I just named, thecharacteristics and values that
I listed, are things that Idon't adhere to and don't plan
to, and I also realized youdon't have to.
You know and still be able todo this work and flow with the
rest of your peers andcolleagues in the organization.
That's what my day-to-day lookslike and that's what I plan for

(30:24):
that to continue to look like.
You know't.
Think that coloring side thelines, sometimes, sure, but
other times no, and I think formy day to day I get to manage
again three incredible people atone time, Four in my role,
having historically covered data, grants management and

(30:46):
knowledge management, is uniquein that respect because it
allows me to think spatiallyagain, not just organizationally
but sector-wide.
And also that comes with beingable to do board service,
whether it be grant making,barbershop books or black film,
space, streetwise partners,whatever it may be.
That, to me, also gives thatsense of spatial thinking that I

(31:08):
can apply to my day-to-day,especially if I'm getting a
question around grantmaking inChina in the morning and then
grantmaking to an OFAC-relatedcountry in the afternoon.
All of that requires skillsrelated to flexibility,
adaptability, influence, beingable to speak multiple languages
on a given day.
That is part of the day-to-dayas well.
That requires a sense of beinga generalist to the extreme, and

(31:29):
that is part of the day-to-dayas well.
That requires a sense of beinga generalist to the extreme and
that is part of what is fun forme.
I don't like silos, so I thinkbeing able to tap into those
different conversations anddifferent outcomes, different
expectations within my own team,but also across teams, to me is
a leadership quotient that Ireally want to double down on
and something that I don't thinksome of the other departments

(31:50):
really offer in that respect tobe able to think and act
generally in that way.
But then you have to know whatto do with it and that's what I
like to encourage the nextgeneration of folks coming up to
really think and act like.
But then Fortune also favors theprepared.
Don't go into a program meetingif you haven't read their
strategy, know what their budgetis.
Know what their priorities are.
Don't go into a program meetingif you haven't read their

(32:11):
strategy.
Know what their budget is.
Know what their priorities are.
Don't just go in thinking thatyou can talk their game without
knowing what it is and knowingwhat they care about.
So fortune does certainly favorthe prepared.
So be prepared, but also showup like you belong.
Show up like you belong andthen act like it too.
That is a skill in and ofitself in a sector that to me,
sometimes can be a bit insecure,but not by choice.

(32:32):
I think some of it is just theculture and how philanthropy and
some foundations have treatedgrants management.
But it doesn't have to be thatway, and so that has been
largely my leadership style.

Speaker 1 (32:42):
That's great and I could definitely see that Right.
I feel like my understanding ofat least the folks that I've met
in grants management isdefinitely some of that
generalist kind of approach, butalso like the safeguarders of
what's happening throughout theorganization, right, like the

(33:03):
folks that are seen across,understanding, as you all said,
the trends, the values, theequities, the inequities, what's
happening, and then being ableto speak to that both on an
organizational and then on asectors level.
Right, and then being able tospeak to that both on an
organizational and then on asectors level right, like
there's so much value in that.
And you all in grantsmanagement have to be pretty
good at whatever the programareas are and understand it
enough to have some of thoseconversations right.
Versus I was more on theprogram side Like I just

(33:24):
basically have to be good at thething that I'm doing, the thing
that the other program team isdoing, and be able to show up in
all the different spaces andmake sure that everyone feels
like you are in partnership withthem and understand what they
do enough to have a realconversation around it.

Speaker 3 (33:37):
So, and let me also add, because Fauzi said
something that stuck with mearound listening is a word that
he used in his answer, and Iwould also say part of the
leadership, regardless of title,because I know Satanya Fair,
the president of peak grantmaking, talks about being title
agnostic often, and I think thatthere's a high level of truth
to that too, depending on, again, your belief in how you show up

(34:00):
in your respective organizationand role.
And to me I think it is alsolearning how to lead with
questions when you don't havethe answer per se to a given
problem.
But my default is not to tellany program team or colleague
internally no, that's not what Iwas used to in government and
that was certainly not what Iwas used to for, especially the

(34:22):
first six years of my career,which was largely working with
Silicon Valley funders, which Ithought would be the theme
throughout my career, because Ididn't seem to be able to get
jobs with any other types oforganizations or funders except
those working from the SiliconValley, and that had its pros
and cons, but one of the pros, Ithink, was learning that this
is a cohort of people that don'tlike to hear no, who don't live

(34:44):
in the realm of possibility, ofno.
It's always about how do I endup getting ultimately what I
want and figuring out creativeways to do that.
And that has not left me, and Ithink it's never really a no,
it's always, you know.
All right, let's figure thisout, let's see how we can get
there.
You know, can you answer X thatleads to Y?
That'll get us to Z.

(35:04):
If it doesn't get us to Z,let's go back to B and figure
out how we got there from thejump To me.
That is the network weaving ofleading with questions, you know
, and sort of that epistemiccommunity that you're creating
with colleagues internally toultimately get to what is it
that they want to accomplish.
You know we talk a lot aboutimpact in this space, right,

(35:26):
which is has its own pros andcons of you know, what is our
impact?
I don't particularly like thatquestion so much, especially
from a foundation, but you know,if anything can be measured,
you can have impact.
But I think what most peopleare really asking is what is our
point of interest, especiallyas a funder, because you know,
ultimately we aren't the oneshaving impact.
It's those, you know, creatingimpact in the world and we're

(35:48):
trying to figure out how theirimpact and our interests merge.
I think that's what we're reallygetting to, and the GM seat can
help get you closer to thatanswer, especially if you're a
social science funder like myorganization.
You're never going to get toexact, you know so there's
always questions to be asked andyou know you're at that point
of.
There's always a somewhat moreor less gap between what that

(36:12):
impact looks like.
That's the point of opportunityfor more questions where that
impact and interest merge.
So I think the more that we dothat, the more credibility that
you gain inside of theseorganizations where knowledge is
seen as valuable and yourability to generate it.

Speaker 1 (36:27):
Can you all tell us what is your favorite part of
your role and the mostchallenging part of your roles?

Speaker 4 (36:33):
Yeah, for me it's pretty easy.
I would say my favorite part isbeing able to get out into
community right, being able tokind of see programming happen
and see the potential of whatgrant funds can do for those
communities, because a lot oftimes we are sitting in these
silos and we're behind a deskand behind a computer screen and

(36:53):
we know the funds are going outthe door but not everyone is
privileged enough to be able tosee the programming happen or
see where it started and kind ofwhere it's going and the
potential it can have.
And so I would say that that'smy favorite part.
And on the flip side of thecoin, when we are in our kind of
process of deciding who we aregoing to fund and who we are

(37:16):
going to support, the no's aretough man, like saying no to an
organization that has a reallystrong program and honestly
deserves the funding but therejust aren't unlimited funds.
That's one of the hardest partsof my job, I'd say.
And then just being able to behonest.
I think that that's the otherpart of what I do.

(37:37):
Best is just being fully opento sharing the hard details and
making sure that I'm not wastingtheir time right, because I
have been on the other side ofthe coin.
I have been a part ofdevelopment teams and creating
grant applications, and it'sjust a waste of time where the
funder strings you along, right,and they say, oh, there may be

(37:59):
an opportunity next year, oh,there may be an opportunity for
the next cycle, right.
I'd rather be fully transparentand honest and say right now
there just isn't a fit.
I don't see alignment.
Here may be other resourcesthat you could tap into.
I'd be happy to make anintroduction, right.

(38:21):
So I'd say that it's reallythose two things Right now.
I'm in the middle of thatprocess, so we are going through
our applications and I'mgetting ready to say no to the
first batch, and it is somethingthat I think about leading into
it and how I can be availablefor them if they have any
questions.
But I like to lead and thinkand lean into the good parts,
right, because when you're ableto share the trustees' visions

(38:43):
and be able to kind of helpfacilitate the use of these
grant funds and being able tosee how impactful a sprinter van
might be for a program that'sserving inner city youth that
just want to play soccer butthey just don't have reliable
transportation Like that's.
That's a win in my book andthat's what keeps me coming back

(39:03):
every single day, so that'swhat I lean into.

Speaker 1 (39:07):
That's great, Actually, Ken, before Roland
jumps in there, can I also askyou because I appreciate all
that you said there and one ofthe things you mentioned was
just your favorite part beingstill being able to see the work
and the end result Wondering ifyou could speak a little bit
about that transition comingfrom direct services to the
foundation side, because I'vealways seen philanthropy as one
of the challenges can be thatyou're kind of that step removed

(39:30):
so you don't get to always seeand have the direct connection
with the folks as you did inyour previous role.

Speaker 4 (39:36):
Yeah.
So that, honestly, that was mydeal breaker.
If I wasn't going to be able tobe out in community, I wasn't
going to take the role.
So for me, like people arerooted and they're the center of
everything I do, professionallyand personally, and that's kind
of what has gotten me to thispoint.
I can think back to just evenwhere I was born, right Like I

(39:58):
was born in Africa and movedhere to America by the grace of
my mother being able to say I amgoing to sacrifice my first son
and say here's an opportunityfor you to have a better life.
So for me, it's all aboutpaying it forward, because I
understand what my mother didfor me and it's not just my
mother, it's my stepmother,she's done the same thing.
It's my cousin, she's done thesame thing.

(40:19):
So for me, women have beensuper impactful in kind of where
I am today and they all taughtme how to pay it forward.
So I never wanted to lose that.
So for those of you that arekind of in the nonprofit space
and are thinking about makingthat transition, if that is at
the core of who you are, don'tsacrifice that because you will

(40:40):
be miserable, like you will justnot enjoy the work because you
aren't doing what you love to do.
You will just not enjoy thework because you aren't doing
what you love to do.
And if being around communityand being in community is kind
of what keeps you coming backand what is your North Star,
don't sacrifice that for anyamount of dollars and money and
opportunities, because, yes, youmay be able to make more money

(41:01):
in philanthropy, but you will bemiserable if you're not rooted
in your beliefs, and I thinkthat that's kind of what drives
me and what keeps me kind ofcoming back every single day and
every year.

Speaker 3 (41:12):
That's a hard answer to follow, but it's, it's.
My answer is the same.
You know what is the mostchallenging and I think the
biggest opportunity is managingpeople.
It's a tough job and it's themost fulfilling part of my
career to date, really, and Ithink it has taught me so many
things that we don't even havetime to unpack on this call

(41:34):
today.
But I think it's somethingabout watching people become
unafraid and more familiar withtheir own dopeness and just
tapping into on dopeness, youknow, and just tapping into.
I don't manage from deficits.
I have no interest in that, Idon't.
I don't care so much aboutfocusing on people's deficits.
I like to be aware of them, Ilike to coach through them as

(41:57):
necessary.
But I also have learned, youknow just in my time in my
current role, that I really wantto focus on people's gifts and
the ones that they know aboutand the ones that they don't and
the ones that they are mostafraid of.
And that is a process you knowand you have to also align.
I say you don't have to doanything, but I have chosen my

(42:20):
leadership style to to to bemore adaptable to people's long
term interests.
Not everybody wants to be adirector.
Not everybody wants to be adirector.
Not everybody wants to be apresident of one of these
organizations, whether for aliving donor, an endowment or
advisory firm or whatever it maybe.
You learn that as you go.
Some people are happy growingin place, and that is totally
fine, and you have to supportthem as well and help them on

(42:43):
their journey to grow in place.
Not everybody wants a promotion.
Some people just want the raiseand that's okay to support them
in that, and that does not haveto be at the sacrifice of
growth and other opportunitiesthat come along with that too.
I'm like get to know yourpeople and I think you know.
The intentionality required tobe a people manager and director
of the team has also taught meyou have to be very deliberate

(43:06):
to be a bad boss, because Ithink a lot about my people, I
think a lot about my team.
I cross Park Avenue or you knowcertain visits to the office
and I'm like you know, I wonderif we're covering this, or I
wonder if we are doing that, orI wonder how you know one of my
managers is thinking about this.

(43:26):
I should support them on that.
I should put them on towhatever program that is or
whatever it may be.
I think a lot about my team andyou know, and also how to
support them and also helpingthem navigate challenges,
challenges that they own, thatthen become my challenges
because they picked up on it, orsomething that now has become

(43:47):
either a stumbling block orhurdle to their progress or
challenge, internally orexternally.
You also, as the team leader,have to figure that out and help
them navigate through that andstill keep the culture intact.
And so that is the job Managingand directing.
Managing people and directing ateam is the job.
Managing and directing.

(44:07):
Managing people and directing ateam is the job.
And it is a 24 hour a day jobbecause you know sometimes your
people might get sick, and it'sa text message at nine o'clock
or 6am or whatever it may be,and you still have to be on and
show up for them as if you wereequally as interested.
As if they're coming to youwith a project budget that has
some questions from a granteethat put all types of things in
there that you have no idea whatthey're doing.
That happens too.
So it is the ultimate test offlexibility, not a flex, and it

(44:33):
also means that there are timeswhen I need to take a backseat
or passenger seat role and letsomebody else drive on something
.
Let them get some shine and somestar power.
Let them get used to being infront of a room or leading a
training or teaching andcultivating that as a skill too,
because leadership, again, isnot just about the title, it

(44:54):
really does come to experienceand some bosses don't want to
give that up.
But since this question isabout you know, fauzi, and I,
I'll keep it about me is I havelearned to enjoy giving some of
that up and saying, no, you leadthis and take this on, I'll be
here to support you, coach you,direct you, but I'll be taking
the behind the scenes role.
We can be right in this officethat I'm sitting in and just

(45:15):
keep it moving, but for the mostpart, you know that has been,
you know, the greatest joy andthe greatest challenge of this
role, but also, I would say,career wise, at least in
philanthropy today, of this role, but also, I would say,
career-wise, at least inphilanthropy today.

Speaker 1 (45:26):
As you all continue to grow in your leadership in
the field.
Can you all share any resources, fellowships, books, podcasts,
things that have helped you allcontinue to grow in this space?

Speaker 4 (45:44):
So for me, I would say that I don't have any
resources as it pertains tophilanthropy, but I do have kind
of best practices that I'veused for myself to get myself to
where I wanted to be at.
So when I was working in thehospitality sector, I knew that
I didn't want to be thereforever and I was intentional
about how I was networking.
I knew that if I wanted acareer or a job in a specific

(46:06):
space that was going to enableme to be able to afford to live
in greater Boston and if youwant to look up how much it is
to live in greater Boston,you'll understand why I think
that I had to be strategic aboutwho I was networking with.
So one thing that I did was Ipicked up a golf stick or a club
and I went to the driving range.
It was I picked up a golf stickor a club and I went to the
driving range, and the reason Idid that was because I knew

(46:29):
there would be individuals therethat would see me as like oh
wow, what is this black guydoing at the driving range?
First, but two, they would seethat I was actually good at golf
.
And three, they'd want to learnmore about me and it's really
funny because almost every jobor except for this one, almost

(46:55):
every job that I've gotten hasbeen facilitated at a driving
range.
I don't know why, but that'swhere I've networked the best.
So, figuring out how you cannetwork what it is that you want
to accomplish in thatindividual call or conversation
with that person and a lot oftimes it's not approaching it
from a lens of what can you dofor me.
But, again, what I said beforeis listening, right, listening

(47:15):
to that individual, their story,how they got to where they are,
what their skill sets are, whatdid they have to develop, what
were their challenges along theway.
And a lot of times people aregoing to talk about their
families, right, and beingmindful and intentional about
listening and, when you circleback, lead with family or lead
with their passions.

(47:36):
That's been invaluable.
It's something that is a skillset for me and I just do it
authentically.
But in anything that I do, it'salways through networking and
seeing how I can help others.
Or, again, just listen to whatthey got going on.
But as it relates to resources,I think one thing that I've

(47:57):
started to develop and thinkabout is being mindful and
intentional about how I seemyself in the world and in the
space of the professionalsetting.
One thing that I've started todo is create mind movies.
I don't know if you're familiarwith what mind movies are, but
it is, in a sense, a way for youto project and create the life

(48:21):
or the career or the space thatyou wish to live in.
So you can do it for yourpersonal, you can do it
professionally.
What I've decided to do isprofessionally create a mind
movie of what type of role Iwant, where do I want that job
to be, how much do I want tomake, what is the impact that I
want to have, what types ofpeople am I working with?

(48:42):
And it's a literal movie thatyou watch every single day
before you start your job or youstart work, and it's just being
intentional about seeing it andrepetitively seeing it.
So then it's almost like you'reliving it already right, so
you're not surprised when thatdoor opens up and you're
prepared.
That's the biggest thing for me, because again, I think

(49:05):
philanthropy or the professionalsetting, it's just about how
you relate to people and if youlearn, a lot of jobs will just
teach you the skill sets alongthe way.
But you got to be a good person, you got to be kind of a team
player and being willing tolisten, and if you don't have
those kind of soft skills again,as I referred to before,
nobody's going to want to workwith you or work for you.

(49:27):
So developing those andunderstanding those early on is
super important.

Speaker 3 (49:32):
I'm currently rereading this book called Quiet
by Susan Cain.
There are a number of peoplethat don't believe that I'm
actually an introvert, because Ispend a lot of time with and
around people, but I generateand I see that left already.
It's true, I'm very much anintrovert and I generate most of

(50:09):
my I think, my best thoughtsand thinking alone.
Or, you know, walking the dogor you know, in those moments,
or being by the water, you know,and not necessarily from you
know large collaborations orsummits or whatnot.
I enjoy that too, but Irealized that I am my best self
in those other spaces.
Or, you know, send me outoutside of London and like the
English countryside or somethinglike with a Tolkien book.
I mean that sounds like a dreamworld to me, but I say that to
say Quiet is one of those booksthat is about leadership,

(50:29):
especially given that themajority of executives and
people that tend to get thepromotions and whatnot tend to
be extroverts.
And so what does it look like,when you are more of an
introverted leader, to get thesame type of opportunities?
And thinking about that from aprofessional perspective, but
also as a senior leader in anorganization that you know

(50:51):
ultimately inspires to be anexecutive in an organization.
So that I am rereading that, butalso thinking about something
that Fauzi said in terms of thecore meaning of this call about
mentorship.
I think about one of my formermentors and I say former because
she passed away during theheight of the pandemic.
I think about Anita Stell fromWashington DC, one of the first

(51:13):
Black women to have a lobbyingfirm in DC.
And I think about our lastconversation that we had at the
Salt Line right there in NavyYard in Southeast DC.
That was right between my movebetween DC and New York.

Speaker 4 (51:30):
And she said.

Speaker 3 (51:30):
You know one thing that I want you to remember to
what Fauzi even said earlierabout.
You know what women,specifically Black women, have
done for brothers like ourselves.
She's like I really don't wantyou to ever forget what Black
women have done for you, whetherit be me, whether it be your
mother, your grandmother,whatever that may be.
But I also want you to takemore risks to jump into the

(51:51):
eight foot end of the pool, tonot regret having failed for
your lack of success in tryingand you know we wrote out a
number of examples, and she evenbrought in a brother from
Capitol Hill that it was sointeresting.
She's like I want you to seethat I could get you the job
that you want on Capitol Hill,and I also don't want you to
take it.

(52:12):
I just want you to see how todo it.
I want you to see how I wentabout it and leverage those
skills for when you need to beutilitarian and have
relationships that are justabout you.
Do for me, I do for you.
There's nothing wrong with that.
You have some more genuinerelationships that are just
about you do for me, I do foryou.
There's nothing wrong with that.
You have some more genuinerelationships that are built on
utilitarianism.
But also you really want to getto know that person beyond just

(52:34):
what they can do for you andfor what you can do for them.
Have those people too, and thenalso make sure that you know
your tribe.
Make sure you know the peoplethat are your day ones, your day
twos, your day threes.
Keep them close, cultivatethose relationships
intentionally, deliberatelyInvest in those people, answer
their emails, take their callsand do it quickly.
Show the sense of urgency thatyou care about them because of

(52:56):
who they are contacting.
You Talk to anybody andeverybody, but really give the
special attention to those whoare in your day one, twos and
threes.
And I have not forgotten that,and I watched her do that time
and time again, even when shelet me get some experience in
her lobby shop and see how thoserelationships work.
And so for me, among the myriadof mentors that I've had,

(53:18):
whether it be Marcus McGrew andSteve Casey on this side of the
house on philanthropy shout outto Satanya Fair and Susan
Harrison as well in thatconversation or some of those in
government, some of those incorporate academia as well.
You need a mosaic of mentorsthat really get a shape of what
it is that not only you want todo in work, in profession, but

(53:39):
also life.
And knowing that you get achoice in what mentors tell you,
you don't have to do anythingthat they offer you, which is
why I think it's even strongerand more powerful when you know
why you want to use thatperson's time and when you are
deliberate and intentional aboutapproaching them for what they
have to offer you and then whatyou can give back to them.

(53:59):
It is a give and take with theultimate purpose of getting
something mutual out of thatrelationship for the betterment
of you both.
And then knowing that they alsohave experience whether that be
professional or just lifeexperience generally to offer
you, so that perhaps you don'tmake some of the same mistakes,
or maybe you do and you learnhow to do something a little bit
differently.
So I think about Anita, I thinkabout the other people I name,

(54:25):
I think about where I am now andI think about the gratefulness
and thankfulness that I hold asthe two values I'm holding this
year in the mix of everythingelse going on in the world that

(54:47):
the Blacksonian down in DC, theNational Museum of
African-American History andCulture.
He said you know, one thing thatwe have to remember as black
people in the space is that weare the privileged oppressed,
and part of being the privilegedoppressed is that we get to do
incredible work like this.
We get to give money away orhelp give money away.
We get to move the mostflexible capital in the world.
What is there to complain about?

(55:10):
But on the other side of thatis there are still a number of
reminders that we don't belong,that there are reminders that we
have to generate our own senseof belonging, that we are not
DEI hires, that we are not, youknow, scapegoats for some
broader picture of diversitythat doesn't actually exist in

(55:31):
reality.
And that is the biggerchallenge.
When I'm talking with a brotherlike Fauzi or others that are
coming up in this space or havebeen in the space for as long as
I have.
That is the differential, whereit's like oh no, we belong and
here's why.
And we're going to lift eachother up to remind each other
that we belong in this space.
That goes well beyond mentoring, that goes beyond sponsorship,

(55:52):
that is self-determination andphilanthropy, where the majority
of people who do the work andwho are decision makers don't
necessarily look like us, butcan, and even in that, there are
some other unique challengesthat come with that, but also
opportunities, and we'll focuson both, and so I'll leave that
at that.

Speaker 1 (56:08):
Yeah, and you know, and Roland, you reminded us
earlier about stepping into yourown dopeness and understanding
kind of who you are and what youbring to the table and the fact
that like like I say this veryhumbly, but also like I'm really
ill at my job, like I know whatI'm doing, so like respectfully
Right, I'm like I know what I'mdoing, so like respectfully
right.
So like there's no way that I'llbe in a room with some folks

(56:29):
and they'll look at my hire alittle different because I'm I'm
really good at what I do.
I say that because, as you asyou spoke, it just is a good
reminder like no, we bring a tonto this table, and like it'll
be really challenging for you toconvince me otherwise.
Yeah, fauzi, you mentionedearlier being thoughtful about
stepping into philanthropy also,as you were thinking about cost
of living and the difference insalaries that you can get in

(56:53):
philanthropy versus sometimes indirect service work.
Right, we'd love for both ofyou to speak a little bit about
your experience with kind ofwhat that salary differentiation
is between government or directservices and also if you all
have thoughts on resources thatpeople can go check salary
comparisons as they're thinkingabout getting into philanthropy.

Speaker 4 (57:17):
Yeah.
So it's general knowledge thatthe nonprofit sector will, in a
sense, pay maybe 40% less thanphilanthropy, right?
So, if I just speak to myprevious experiences, I had the
opportunity to be a programmanager and that salary was

(57:37):
again, this is dating back tomaybe 2020, a little bit before
then that salary was about$50,000, a little bit before
then that salary was about$50,000, right Compared to if I
were in that position on thephilanthropic side, it might be
three times as much as that,depending on the foundation,
depending on the geographic area, depending on the scope of work

(57:58):
.
So again, yes, you may be ableto make more money in
philanthropy or on this side ofthe coin, but I do want to urge
folks to find the right fit, andthere are people out there that
will kind of give you thehonest, honest assessment of
what that right fit may be foryou.
And then, if you find yourselfin the space and you realize

(58:19):
that it's not the right fit, youjust have to find your network
and, like Roland said, find yourtribe.
And find your tribe early on,right?
Because when something isn'tgoing right, those are the
people that you're going to leanon to stay in this space, and
I'm only speaking to kind ofpeople of color and black men
because that's who I am.
We need more of us in thisspace and we need more of us to

(58:42):
kind of champion the nextgeneration and the next cohort
of Black men and Black women inthis space.
So as people kind of getdiscouraged maybe about what it
is that they're doing on aday-to-day or kind of the
environment they're in, I urgethem to find their people, find
their tribe and don't give upbecause you are super important

(59:03):
and we do need more of us inthis space.
So right now I'm in theprogrammatic side and grants
management side.
Historically speaking, grantsmanagers or grants management
side of the work may get paid alittle bit less than the
programmatic side.
Again, as I shared, depends onthe foundation, depends on the
scope of work, but you can makeclose to, if not more than, a

(59:28):
comfortable salary to live kindof where I'm at in greater
Boston.
So that scope is, if you'resingle, don't have any kids and
don't have any debt, it might beanywhere from 75,000 entry or
I'd say maybe 65,000 entryupwards, to maybe 85, 90, if you
have experience just startingout into this sector.

(59:50):
So, and then it can go all theway up.
So the one thing I do want toshare is Candid is a great
resource for just looking atdata collection and also, I
would say if you're looking at990s, you can see who the top
salaries are for an organization, right?
So if you have a dream ofworking for X foundation down

(01:00:11):
the line and you're trying tofigure out what that pathway is
to that and what that salary is,a lot of times you'll be able
to see the top five earners forthat foundation or for that
organization, that foundation orfor that organization.
So that's something that I didwhen I first started out to just
kind of get an understanding ofam I being underpaid or is this
kind of just where the growthprocess is?

(01:00:33):
So I don't know if, roland, youhave any other resources.
I believe Peak also has areport out in regards to grants,
management salaries and theykind of do a deeper dive into
geographic location, how long aperson has been at an
organization, and alsodemographic information.

(01:00:53):
So, yeah, I would say PEAK is agreat resource as well.

Speaker 3 (01:00:57):
Yeah, I think the two resources that Fauzi named are
perfect.
I think the only other two Ican think of are Council on
Nonprofits and Council onFoundations also do salary
surveys, I think you know.
So if I got that wrong, theaudience will correct me on that
, but I'm pretty sure that theydo.
And I would also say you knowthat you get what you negotiate.

(01:01:20):
And knowing your worth isequally as important.
And knowing what the salarybands are, because they range
across geographies.
You know what you get paid inNew York, dc and the Bay is very
different than what you get ineven Dallas, houston and Chicago
, you know.
So, to Fauzi's point, it doeshelp to know the landscape and
to see the differences acrossgeographies because for some

(01:01:42):
reason there are a number ofcompanies and foundations that
will pay you differently basedon where you live, as if you
know that's evidence basedpractice or whatever it's called
.
But I don't necessarilyprescribe to that if I were in
the decision making seat of that.
But regardless, there arecompanies that do that.
You know.
Know how to negotiate, you know.

(01:02:03):
Know what you bring to thetable.
Ready to your earlier point,you know.
You know what you bring to thetable and you know your worth.
That is something that I thinkall three of us, in addition to
those listening.
It's important to remember that.

Speaker 1 (01:02:14):
Agree, and outside of my first job ever, I have never
since taken a job withoutnegotiating something Absolutely
, whether that was title orsalary or both.
So definitely echo that you getto negotiate.
By the time you get tonegotiating, they already want
you, so you might as well makeit make sense for everyone

(01:02:34):
involved when I came over tophilanthropy, that was not how I
approached it.

Speaker 4 (01:02:50):
I was very green to what I could ask for or kind of
what I should ask for, and Ithink that I've learned that.
And again, you don't haveeverything figured out when you
first get started in any space.
So, again what I said beforegive yourself grace, but learn
from your mistakes.
And that's why mentorship andcoaches and leaders that may
pour back into you are soimportant, right?

(01:03:11):
Because they're going to teachyou that before you get started
and you can have thatconversation before you get to
that point when you're signingon the dotted line.

Speaker 1 (01:03:19):
So that's right.
Is there anything else wehaven't discussed that the world
should know about you two, Imean?

Speaker 4 (01:03:25):
we're both musicians or have a passion for music.
I think that's a good one.
So Roland did say he's anintrovert.
I would say I also am anintrovert, but I think it's a
skill set to learn how to getinto a room and say, all right,
even though this isuncomfortable, I know I have to
do this and I may have toperform a solo.
And I kind of think back to myexperiences growing up when I

(01:03:50):
was playing saxophone and, like,for me personally, I was
terrified at times.
But then you get up there andyou get to play a solo and it's
just you and the kind of worldgoes dark and you're just there
jamming Right.
So music, I love music.
We were just recently in NewOrleans so I got to sneak away
and Roland gave me some greatrecommendations.
So that's, that's a passion ofmine.

(01:04:12):
Instrumental choice is thesaxophone, preferably the alto.
I don't know if I have thelungs for the tenor baritone yet
, but yeah, that's.
That's one thing that we bothshare in common.

Speaker 3 (01:04:25):
Yeah, and I'm a pianist and keyboardist.
So you know, I think for memusic the leadership lesson that
I learned most and I played for30 years of my life and my
grandmother was a gospelorganist, so she, you know, was
the impetus for all of that.
But my father was the one thatthought I should also be trained

(01:04:45):
classically.
So kudos to him too.
But I think the top leadershiplesson that I've learned from
music is how to listen to manydifferent voices at the same
time and not get overwhelmed byit.
And, specifically having playedin bands, that brings on many
different types of personalities, many different things
happening at one time to geteverything to make sense.

(01:05:07):
You know what the drummer isdoing is very different from the
bass player, from thekeyboardist to, you know, the
saxophonist.
You know if you have a JohnLegend-style band, you're going
to have all of that and more andstill be the piano player of
your own if you're John Legend.
So I say that to say that it isnot as overwhelming to sit in a
room and listen to either theclanging cymbals you know,

(01:05:28):
taking up air time in a meetingor those that are making more
sense like a bass guitarist youknow.
So you know, and it's avaluable skill.
You know, and I play andpractice every day.
You know that's my safe spaceand my escape again when I'm not
walking on the river.
Music is truly not justlistening to it but also playing
it.
I can't imagine life withoutthat Awesome.

Speaker 1 (01:05:50):
Thank you both for sharing that.
Thank you all for joining ustoday.
I really appreciate all of thecareer cheat codes you got to
share with the audience, somemore intel about your path and
how you got into the roles thatyou're in now, and look forward
to continuing to see your growthin the field.

Speaker 4 (01:06:05):
Thank you too, Roddy.
Thank you, Roddy.
Thank you for the opportunity.

Speaker 2 (01:06:08):
I hope you enjoyed this episode.
If you did and believe on themission we're on, please like,
rate and subscribe to thispodcast on whatever platform
you're using, and share thispodcast with your friends and
your networks.
Make sure you follow us onInstagram and LinkedIn at Career
Cheat Code and tell us peopleor careers you would like to see
highlighted.
See you next week with somemore cheat codes.
Peace.

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076 | The Path To Impact with Faouzi Talabi and Roland Kennedy Jr

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}076 | The Path To Impact with Faouzi Talabi and Roland Kennedy Jr