085 | From Architect To Builder of Impact w/ Jhaelen Hernandez-Eli - Career Cheat Code

Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
And when I think about my own life, and then I
reflect on my own my parents'lives, you know, what brought us
to this country, right?
I was born in Singapore.
My mother is Chinese, myfather's Indian, and we end up
in North Carolina when I'm fiveyears old.
Why?
Well, because my father, who wasa minister, a Methodist minister

(00:22):
in Singapore, is giving somelecture about family values.
And it so happens that the viceprovost of Duke University is in
the audience, likes what myfather has to say, has several
meetings with him, and writeshim an acceptance note to Duke
University on hotel stationery,that sort of thing.
You know?
Like that's insane.

(00:42):
When you think about the thepebble that you drop in a pond,
that ripple effect is in is kindof immense, right?
And it speaks of the power wehave to change other people's
lives in really profound ways.

SPEAKER_01 (00:57):
Welcome to Career G Code.
In this podcast, you'll hear howeveryday people impact the world
through their careers.
Learn about their journey,career hacks, and obstacles
along the way.
Whether you're already havingthe impact you want or are
searching for it, this is thepodcast for you.
All right.

SPEAKER_00 (01:12):
Jalen, welcome to Career G Code.
Oh, I it's a real privilege tobe here with you.
And I know we've been trying todo this for quite some time.
So it's delighted.

SPEAKER_01 (01:22):
Absolutely.
But I think the timing hasaligned perfectly.
It's at the right time in bothof these journeys.
Um, but let's dive right in,man.
Let's tell the world what it isyou do for a living.

SPEAKER_00 (01:32):
Sure.
So uh I am the founder and CEOof Jalen Capital Projects.
It's a strategy firm that isdedicated to and supports
nonprofits, museums primarily,academic institutions, all of
whom are embarking on their owntransformative capital projects.

(01:52):
And a capital project is a fancyterm for design and construction
of a building or buildingsessentially.
And our job is to help thoseinstitutions raise money and
align the sources and the usesof the funds in this era of
severely limited capital.
So it's a beast, but it's a lotof fun to do.

(02:14):
That's awesome.
How long have you been doingthis?
Uh we launched this firm ninemonths ago.
Okay.
Nine months ago.
And now we are two offices.
We have one in New York, one inLos Angeles, and there's about a
dozen of us or so.
Holy smokes.
That's rapid growth.
I that's what people tell me.

(02:36):
And uh I don't know.
We, you know, I no entire frameof reference.
You hear stories of startups,and you hear people raising
tremendous funds, and all of asudden there are hundreds of
people within 12 months orwhatever.
But I I know as an outfit, youknow, that's just started, we've
taken on no debt, and we'reworking with great clients.
I feel very blessed to be doingthis.

(02:57):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (02:57):
Well, as someone who also launched his own company in
2025, it's still one rattyoperating in this organization.
Actually, that's not true.
I've had some people come in anddo some part-time work.
Nonetheless, we don't have thatin different places.
So I love to see the growth.
I appreciate how rapid it is.
Let's work backwards from there.
Let's uh let's talk about whyyou launched this organization.

SPEAKER_00 (03:19):
You you know, it's a that's a great question.
I should have been prepared forit.
I'm not prepared to answer thequestion because it's a
potpourri of things.
And I and I think, you know, inno particular order, at some
moment you say to yourself, I'dreally love to try being the
boss.
Right?
You have a sense of yourself,you you start to develop a

(03:40):
network, you have your ownperspective and a and a set of
values that are apparentlyuseful to others and
potentially, you know, toinstitutions or whom whomever.
It's a little bit of luck.
You have folks who start callingyou and say, hey, would you be
interested in helping us?
And you maybe have a day joblike I did, then you you start

(04:02):
to consider maybe this is themoment.
I'm very lucky because I have anincredible partner and my wife,
and she helped enable it too,right?
I mean, there's all of thesefactors that come into play.
And she says, okay, maybe thisis the moment where you have to
go try and do somethingyourself.
And maybe that way we can have alittle bit more time and a

(04:22):
little bit more money, butmostly time, so that we can
spend it with our family.
I don't know.
It's a it's a whole mix ofdifferent things, I guess.
Okay, so what were you doingbefore you launched this
company?
So prior to this, I was the vicepresident of Capital Projects at
the Metropolitan Museum of Art.
And that role was essentiallyabout overseeing the collection

(04:45):
of architecture that we had atthe museum.
The Met is roughly 150 yearsold.
It's been in Central Park fornearly 140 of those years, and
over time it evolved into acampus of something like 21
buildings.
And my job was to care for andadd to that collection of

(05:06):
buildings, to renovate and uhthe galleries, to build new
infrastructure, to take care ofthe objects that it houses
through the buildings.
And over that time, while I wasthere, we created an entire
department, probably the largestCapital Projects internal
department in the world at amuseum, and roughly 20 folks or

(05:29):
so from a department that wasabout three people when I
started there.
And the overall size of theprogram was nearly$2 billion
across probably, I would say, 15to 20 years or so.
And the entire visioning andthen implementation of that
program was something that I hadthe privilege of overseeing.

SPEAKER_01 (05:51):
Holy smokes.
How does one even get to thattype of role, right?
Like what kind of background doyou do you have to be able to
manage these large-scaleprojects that are staples for
New York City, right?
Like this, these are like theMet and the organizations that
you've worked on and theprojects that you've worked on,
because I know some of yourbackground.
Like these are these are placesthat people fly to New York City

(06:12):
to see, right?
This is these are touristattractions, these are fabrics
of New York, these are some ofthe reasons why we appreciate
the culture and the history thatcomes with New York City, right?
Like, how do like is thissomething that you've always
wanted to get into, or like whatbrings you to to like all of
this?

SPEAKER_00 (06:30):
Wow, that's a lot of questions to unpack.
And it's it's uh how do I dothis in a way that's uh linear?
It's hard because it's notlinear, right?
And the question of how I gotthere, the question of you know,
how do you make a difference ina place like that once you get
there?
What's one's backgrounds?
Did I aspire to go there in thefirst place?

(06:53):
Did I have the Met ever in mysights?
They're all really greatquestions.
So before the Met, I was withyou.
This is how we met at the City'sEconomic Development
Corporation.
And I don't know how you foundit, but I I often say it's still
one of the most significanthighlights of my career to be a
public servant.
And the city's economicdevelopment corporation, I don't

(07:15):
know how you would describe it.
I would say that it, you know,essentially wields real estate
and the built environment forthe benefit of our people.
Absolutely.
And it is essentially the publicreal estate development wing for
the city of New York.
Absolutely.
And so, you know, how we spentthe money, what kinds of spaces

(07:36):
we created were all about twoprimary topics in my mind.
And I love to hear what youthink they were, but it was
about climate resiliency,preparing us for the inevitable,
and it was about socioeconomicequity through job creation,
through how we spent resources,uh, and to create the kind of

(07:57):
spaces that maybe the privatesector normally or uh usually
wouldn't necessarily do becauseof short-term returns aren't
there for it.

SPEAKER_01 (08:05):
Absolutely.
And I think you and I had verydifferent roles at a place like
Economic DevelopmentCorporation.
We'll get back to the work thatyou were doing under the back.
I'm just but for right now, youknow, I think at the New York
City Economic DevelopmentCorporation Corporation, my role
was really to align with whatcommunity needs and interests
were at the time and whatgovernment officials, everything
from your council members toCongress members for presidents,

(08:26):
right?
Kind of what they saw, and marrythat with the visions of both
the administration and EDC atthe time, right?
Where like folks at EDC havefull-time jobs to think about
what the resiliency of New YorkCity is gonna look like in 30,
40, 50 years, and what how tobring business attraction in a
way that makes sense and it'sequitable and all the things.

(08:47):
There are folks on the groundthat are like, well, what does
that mean for me today?
And how is that going to impactmy children, right?
So, like, I think some of my jobwas to bring all that together
and help people talk to eachother and and work together.
And you and I had you knowreally had some some of that
good synergy of how this workstogether well when we did some
work over in Sunset Park, whenyou can have a vision for a

(09:10):
thing, have partners that areall coming to the table, and
then invite community voices aswell to be part of the process.
I think we did that really wellin some of the work over at
Censor Park, specifically as wethink about terminal.

SPEAKER_00 (09:21):
Yeah, no, of the community for the community.
And I love this idea that youknow a robust middle class is
required or necessary for afunctional democracy.
And a robust middle class is onededicated to making things, is
is getting compensated fairlyfor that.
And that you need a large,robust middle class where

(09:43):
everybody feels there's a wayforward for themselves and their
children in order to maintainthe vitality and the endurance
of a democracy, in order tochallenge the natural tendencies
we have to get tribal, right?
And so this related to the Met,I was really happy at the EDC

(10:03):
because we had a reallywonderful balance to quality of
life, and we were making adifference for people.
And I got a random call from aheadhunter that was like, hey,
you know, we think you might bea really great fit for the Met.
And till today, my wife and Ilaugh about this because I said
no.
And in retrospect, when I tellpeople that, they go, Are you

(10:26):
crazy?
This is the Metropolitan Museumof Art.
It's the number one museum inthe country.
It's one of the largest museumsin the world.
You know, the collection spanstwo million objects and is a
flagship of our culturalunderstanding of humanity, you
know, and represents a certainset of values, not just of New
York and the country, but of whowe are as a species.

(10:49):
And I said, no, you know, I'mcool because I'm on the front
lines of engaging the mostcritical issues of our time.
And that's what I wanted.
I wanted to alter theconversation around the dining
room table with my kids.
And there we could, I wasfinally able to talk about
issues of climate change andissues of equity and
manufacturing, jobs, and wages,and so forth.

(11:10):
And what happened is, you know,the headhunter called back and
said, Hey, listen, and now Iunderstand they probably, you
know, thought, who says no tothe men?
And they said, just just comeand meet the CEO of the museum,
Dan Weiss.
Uh, just have one conversationwith him.
Um, and then you can decide, youknow, this is not the right fit
for you.
Okay, that's cool.
So I said, All right, sure, I'lldo that.

(11:31):
And this gets back to an earlyconversation you are and I were
having about these moments inone's trajectory, which is
nonlinear, where you might havethe opportunity to meet somebody
or a champion, somebody who'sgonna make you better, right?
You want to be surrounded bypeople.
One of the questions I like toask myself or of others who are

(11:51):
thinking about a pivot in theircareer is well, who do you
imagine being surrounded by?
Less what you're doing, but whoare the people you're gonna be
with?
And uh I met Dan, and I have tobe honest, I did a little bit of
research on him prior.
He's he was uh two-time uhpresident of several
universities, written manybooks.
I read one of his books before Igot on the call with him, and I

(12:12):
listened to his interviews and Iand I resonated with his
vocabulary, his lexicon, the thehis values.
And I said, I think this issomething who can make me
better.
And I got on the call with him,and he and I now joke about it,
but within minutes, we hadalready made the decision about
one another that he was somebodyI wanted to work with, and vice

(12:34):
versa.
And we were, I was given an hourfor this interview, and I it was
done in I don't know, 27minutes.
And I got a call from theheadhunter, and he goes, you
know, when you have an hour withthe CEO of the Met, you take the
hour.
You know, and he says, But forwhatever reason it seemed to
work for the both of you,because he's thrilled and you're

(12:54):
thrilled.
So that that's the primaryreason why I actually went to
the Met was not because of theinstitution alone, but was
because I said this is somebodywho can make me better.
And uh I I began to recognizethat the Met as a platform
actually had a farther reachthan the EDC did.
So the things that you and Iwere doing constantly

(13:17):
privileging uh socioeconomicequity, bringing new voices to
the table, you know, uhsupporting small businesses.
We were doing that all the time.
But after I started doing thatat the Met, all of a sudden it
would appear in the New YorkTimes.
You know, uh uh it was a hugemegaphone, a big platform for a

(13:38):
set of values that I thoughtwere really critical for uh for
us to uh navigate for ourchildren.

SPEAKER_01 (13:45):
That's so interesting, right?
Because you would imaginegeographically, the New York
City Economic DevelopmentCorporation covers every corner
of New York City.
There's probably more of aspotlight megaphone, all those
things, right?
And the resources of the city.
But when you look at a placelike the Met, I think it's part
of it, it's just that globallyrenowned brand that's attached

(14:06):
to it.
Um, and the fact that it's notgovernment-owned, right?
So it's not a it's not agovernment entity that basically
should be doing the rightthings.
It is a private or a nonprofitorganization that is doing it
because it is the right thing todo in that in those ways.

SPEAKER_00 (14:24):
Yeah, totally.
Exactly.
And I think that, you know, Ihad developed, I had started to
hone a perspective about whatwas important to me and and
where I could find my place uhin the world.
And it goes back to those twoissues again around climate
change and equity and this ideaof usefulness.

(14:48):
And I asked myself the questionwell, in what ways is a museum
useful in this current moment?
Because traditionally, museums,their role are is two things.
It's to care for the collectionthat they're housing, right?
The history of humanity toldthrough the things that we make,
and it's the display of thosethings for education purposes.
But the question for thatinstitution, for museums, and

(15:10):
actually more broadly forinstitutions generally, is that
enough today, given everythingthat we're facing?
And my answer is actually no,it's not.
So, what is it about what I dothrough design and construction
that could help the museumparticipate in those

(15:30):
conversations to be useful?
And that's how that capitalprogram developed at the Met,
and it's a particularperspective, right?
To bring uh new artists, I callthem artists, but they're
architects.
My job is to curate the list ofarchitects who would engage our
projects and lead them.
Not the typical folks, uh folkswho come from different

(15:51):
backgrounds, different stories,folks who normally would never
be looked at for a commission ata museum such as the
Metropolitan Museum of Art.
And then to show that a museumlike that could make bold
choices and then sustain themand support those decisions, it
became a roadmap for otherinstitutions seeking to be bold

(16:13):
also and to address thoseparticular issues.
And it's that's how it spiraledeventually into the into the
start of Jalen Capital projects.

SPEAKER_01 (16:23):
Wow.
Tell me more about in your timeat the Met, was there a specific
project that you were part ofthat you know you were really
proud you were able to getthrough get off the ground or
get through the finish linewhile you were there and and
what was your role in that?

SPEAKER_00 (16:38):
Yeah, it's a great question.
I I mean they're all you know,across the the the$2 billion
program, we were going to alternearly a quarter of the museum's
spaces.
And if you think about it, themuseum is two million square
feet.
It's the size of the EmpireState Building, for example.
Only half of that, the BrooklynArmy Terminal, which is close to

(17:01):
4 million, but it's still reallylarge.
And and I mentioned the BrooklynArmy Terminal for your listeners
because it's something thatRaddy and I worked on together,
that you and I engaged on.
It required a community ofarchitects and artisans to
engage the work.
In other words, it wasn't justone architect, there were there
were a dozen projects that wereneeded to be done.

(17:21):
Because in truth, it's it's acampus.
It's like a university orcollege.
It's just that it's not spreadout with a bunch of open space
between the buildings.
All the buildings are crampedtogether.
But could you imagine you're acampus of 21 buildings if you
were to put the Met and rank itagainst the other universities
and college in New York,something like the seventh
largest or something in in NewYork?

(17:42):
And so there's a tremendousamount of work.
And we have to catch up,especially because of the way in
which the climate has beenchanging, too.
The assault on our buildings issignificantly different now than
even five years ago.
Meaning the intensity of therainfall and so forth, that the
the swings in temperature aresignificant, putting a huge

(18:03):
stress on our infrastructure.
So we had to move faster.
And so what we did was develop aprogram where we brought new
voices, not the typicalarchitects or artists that you
would bring.
And there's nothing wrong withthat.
But what was at stake was thisidea of breaking cycles of
inequity.
That if we could show that wecould bring people who normally

(18:24):
wouldn't be looked at forcommissions like this, because
they were seen as highly risky,that maybe we could bring a new
set of values to the table.
And so we ended up at the end ofthe nearly five years that I was
there with a community ofarchitects that were unlike
anything another institution wasdoing in the world, actually.

(18:45):
We had Frida Escobedo, who atthe time being commissioned for
the Tang Wing, 130,000 squarefeet or so, and nearly$500
million, was 43 years old,perhaps, around that.
She was in her low 40s.
Nadair Tarrani for anotherproject, the ancient uh West
Asian and Cyprus galleries.

(19:05):
Uh, someone who hadtraditionally not done a project
within an institution like that.
Um, we had uh Nathan uh uh uhRich and Miriam Peterson as
well, another uh younger firmthat brought a different
perspective to the galleries andso forth.
So that that that was extremelyexciting to be able to work

(19:28):
within the institution, with thecurators, with the
administrative staff, with theboard to articulate a vision and
to say this is the way in whichcultural institutions need to
go, and we should lead, notfollow.
Wow.

SPEAKER_01 (19:41):
And then your role there, just to make sure I'm
clear, as the VP of CapitalProjects, is to both have help
shape what that vision could be,think about who these commit who
should be commissioned to bepart of this, right?
And then manage that process andthat project going forward.

SPEAKER_00 (20:02):
Correct.
Exactly.
So our job is everything fromdetermining what the projects
even are or should be,sequencing them so that they
minimize disruption to theinstitution, but also
acknowledge the priorities.
You know, sometimes it's aboutvisitor experience, sometimes
it's about infrastructure andenergy and so forth, sometimes

(20:25):
it's about the galleries.
It's then determining what isthe cost of those projects.
And then it's who is the team,and then it's managing that
spend all the way through to themoment the galleries or the
whatever it is you're working onis done and open to the public.

SPEAKER_01 (20:42):
So a lot of responsibility, but that makes
sense because you're as thein-house person, you're
basically overseeing the processand bringing in the right
partners to then push thingsthrough.
That that makes all the sense inthe world as someone that may be
one of our listeners is like,well, what are you what are you
what are you doing there?
What is your like what how doyou how does this all come
together?

(21:02):
Let me ask you a question,Jalen.
Is like a VP of Capital Projectsor managing Capital Projects, is
this what you always wanted todo for a living?

SPEAKER_00 (21:11):
Yeah, wow.
Good question.
Um or rather, I didn't I didn'tknow this was an option.
And I suppose this is theopportunity to tell the story of
being educated as an architect.
Uh and I went to a vocationalhigh school, and that's when I
got first exposed to uharchitecture.

(21:32):
And because we were draftingalready, right?
We were juniors and seniors inhigh school.
We were being taught theautomotive trades, culinary
arts, construction.
Because the expectation in thiscommunity that I grew up in, and
there's such tremendous virtuein this, is that many of us
would go back into the communityin the trades, that not all of

(21:54):
us were meant necessarily forhigher education.
And that actually is okay,especially if we compensate our
trades and our artisans the waythey should be.
It's an incredible, viable,wonderful way of life.
But I did go on to highereducation and I applied to be an
architect, to architectureprograms.

(22:14):
So I went to Berkeley, did thatas undergrad, didn't know what
to do with myself, applied tograd school, got to Harvard,
went there, graduated, got didmy first sort of internship and
realized I didn't want to be anarchitect.
Imagine going through eightyears of schooling and then
coming to that realization thatI didn't want to draw in front

(22:37):
of a computer or on a computer.
And I don't know if I could havedone anything differently to
have come to a differentconclusion.
And I don't know that I neededto, given where I've ended up,
it's okay.
And only now can I say with somereflection, I didn't want to be
uh practicing as an architect inthat way.
But it didn't mean that I didn'tlove architecture and didn't

(22:58):
want to advocate for it.
And I love buildings becauselook, when art historians study
a society, one of the thingsthey look at, one of the major
artifacts that they study, is abuilding.
Our buildings tell us atremendous amount about who we
are, who we were, the practicesof the time, how a culture or a

(23:22):
people situated themselves inthe universe, how they derived
meaning, what the rituals are,how they organized their
society, right?
Uh how they made things, theclasses, the stratification, uh,
the economies, all of it.
The buildings tell you about theentire ecosystem.
And then they symbolize apeople's aspirations as well.

(23:44):
So they are incredibly potentand relevant uh works of art at
this at this at a significantscale, and they can illustrate
who we are and our values.
And I love that about buildings.
And and they still, till todayfor me, engage all the most
critical issues that we've beentalking about, right?
And so uh what I discovered wasthat there was a different form

(24:06):
of advocacy that I didn't haveto practice as an architect to
support the built environmentand all the difference that it
can make.

SPEAKER_01 (24:12):
And that's huge, right?
Because it could be verydiscouraging to go through
undergrad, grad school, get tothe end where you're like, yes,
I am now an architect.
First internship, and now it'slike, wait, I don't know if I
like this, right?
So that highlights thathighlights to me, one, the
importance of internships,right?

(24:33):
Like to get out and do the thingthat you think in your head
makes sense and just try it outand see if that's something
real.
Um, that's happened to mebefore.
I've when I was in college, Ifor some reason thought
marketing was my thing, eventhough I don't know how to draw,
I don't know how to like be aI'm not a visual person, but
like I was watching Mad Men atthe time, and I was like, I'm

(24:54):
gonna be Don Draper, that makessense.
And and then I just shadowedsomeone on Wall Street for one
day, and I was like, yeah, Ithink I'm cool on all this,
actually.
I don't I don't know that thisis necessarily for me, but
there's the value ininternships, right?
And then putting yourself in asituation to exploit to
experience it.
But then in your case, to beable to turn what could have

(25:15):
been a really almostheartbreaking moment, right,
into how do I now apply what Ihave learned in some other
capacity, right?
And I think for me, that's partof the value of the show is
showcasing that just because youstudy architecture does not mean
you're an architect.
Just because you studyaccounting does not mean you
have to be an accountant.
Um, you can put these skill setsto use in so many different

(25:36):
ways, right?
How did you go from that momentto then kind of realizing how
else you can apply these skillsets, but not directly be an
architect?

SPEAKER_00 (25:46):
Yeah, right.
That and that's the rightquestion.
I think.
And look, I I can only answerthis now in the way that I've
been answering it because ofreflection, and it's been over
20 years since that moment forme.
As if this has been, and we'vetalked about this a straight
trajectory, but it hasn't been.
And it's only been recently thatI've even settled into this idea

(26:08):
of what I'm doing.
And and so the question of,well, how did I get there?
You know, I've been reflectingon this a bit.
There's this one narrative thatfolks always tell where you know
they willed it, they workedreally hard, there's genius,
even if they don't say it'sgenius, you know.

(26:28):
But I I think there's some realmerit and virtue to talk about
it relative to to the kindnessof others, actually.
Some people to call it luck,some people say it's about being
in the right place and the righttime.
But there's a profound power inthis idea that you can alter and
change another person's life,and you don't know how that

(26:50):
happens or takes shape yet.
And when I think about my ownlife, and then I reflect on my
own, my my parents' lives, youknow, what brought us to this
country, right?
I was born in Singapore.
My mother is Chinese, myfather's Indian, and we end up
in North Carolina when I'm fiveyears old.
Why?
Well, because my father, who wasa minister, a Methodist minister

(27:14):
in Singapore, is giving somelecture about family values, and
it so happens that the viceprovost of Duke University is in
the audience, likes what myfather has to say, has several
meetings with him, and writeshim an acceptance note to Duke
University on hotel stationery,that sort of thing.
You know?
Like that's insane.

(27:35):
When you think about the the thepebble that you drop in a pond,
that ripple effect is in is kindof immense, right?
And it speaks to the power wehave to change other people's
lives in really profound ways.
But it doesn't end there, right?
He he comes on, he's given thechance to come over, but Duke at
the time didn't pay for the restof us to go with it.

(27:57):
And this tragic story of amother and father loses uh their
young son, their young child,and they wanted to bury him, but
no Christian minister would burytheir child because the child
wasn't baptized.
And my father said, Of courseI'll bury your child.
Like that is that is what we aremeant to do.

(28:20):
And it turns out that, you know,in their gratefulness, they
were, I guess, a fairly wealthyfamily.
And when they found out that hiskids, myself, my brother, I
think even my my mom were nottraveling with my father to
America, he paid for our flightsto come over.
Like, and then you start to youstart to to understand, you

(28:41):
know, your role relative toothers.
Where am I going with this?
This this has a point.
I realize I don't want to be anarchitect, but I'm not sure how.
And I remember talking to mywife, Juliet, one day.
I was picking up the phone withher.
I was going, I don't want this.
I don't, this is not what Iexpected.
And a week later or so, for somereason, I get on the phone with
this gentleman named MikeRogers.

(29:02):
And uh he's a vice president ofsales at this company that's
manufacturing houses inMassachusetts.
And he just says, you know,how's your weekend?
Like, who asks you how yourweekend is?
You know what I mean?
Like, I don't know you, butokay, I'm gonna go on this
journey with you.
And within minutes, he was ableto get my story, you know, and
this is an interesting skillthat that some people have.

(29:24):
And it turns out that he wasconsidering launching a new
business service where thiscompany he was working with
manufacturing houses in afactory, but they needed to get
to a new market.
They needed to get to architectsactually directly so they can
manufacture the houses be beingdesigned by architects, not just
go directly to clients, but buta whole new uh sales uh stream.

(29:47):
But they couldn't find anybodywho could bridge the language
between their contractor natureand the architects.
You couldn't be salesing, right?
You had to actually speakarchitecture.
And he goes.
And he just decided that I wasthe person.
And he was like, Why don't youcome?
I'll teach you, you know, how touh to launch a business.

(30:08):
I'll teach you how to do sales.
And I made this mistake.
If your listeners are payingattention, he asked me in my
first sit-down with him, Well,what are you being paid right
now?
And I told him, Don't ever dothat.
Just or just you can hold youranswer, right?
And I remember what I told him.
I said I was being paid$40,000,and this isn't 2005.
And I remember seeing this lookcome over his face.

(30:29):
He was so thrilled because heknew he could just destroy that
number with a little bit ofmargin and would be fine.
And he offered me 60.
And I think I took the job for65 or something like that.
But the point is that was theswitch and trajectory.
And I was in sales.
Wow.
Having to learn how to cold calland write emails and meet with

(30:50):
people and talk to strangers.
I was scared.
I was terrified.
I was an introvert.
Wow.
And he he made me work on it andhone in as a craft.

SPEAKER_01 (31:00):
So I I you know I want to reflect on a few things
you said there.
So one, the power of kindness,right?
Your dad doing an act ofkindness and how that has paid
residuals in a way that I'm surelike he didn't do it to get
something back, right?
He just said, Of course, I'mgonna bury your child.
Like, what are you talkingabout?
Yes, we're gonna, we're gonnamake this is the right thing to

(31:21):
do.
Um, and then that led to therest of his family not being
able to join him in the UnitedStates of America in North
Carolina and you all landingthere and kind of kind of
beginning that journey then,right?
Um as as young folks.
How how old were you when youwhen you arrived at North
Carolina?

SPEAKER_00 (31:38):
I was five.

SPEAKER_01 (31:39):
Five years old.
There's a five-year-old kid nowin North Carolina.
At least you're reunited withyour family and you can kind of
start this next trajectory,right?
And then and I I appreciatestories like this because I'm an
immigrant myself, right?
And yeah, for me, it's importantto highlight the great impact
that immigrants can have in thiscountry if given opportunities,
right?

(31:59):
Like we, I think, have beensuper model citizens for for
this country, right?
And I I just appreciate whenfolks like your father came in
and model citizen, doing greatthings, all the things, great.
Then the next generation, youand your family coming in and
continuing that legacy of doinggreat things in this country,

(32:19):
right?
I also appreciated in what yousaid just your openness, your
open-mindedness when having aconversation with someone,
because you're not in sales, somaybe having someone with
someone like having aconversation with someone like
this doesn't immediately click.
But then you start seeing thethe gray area, and you're like,
wait, I don't want to be anarchitect.

(32:40):
I don't want to be asalesperson, but this is a way
to speak to both, and this is away to like marry the like what
are you all trying to getacross?
I speak the language, let me gotalk to them and explain what it
is that we're doing and how thiscan be helpful, beneficial to
their jobs.
And I think I just find thatfascinating that you were

(33:00):
open-minded enough to say, letme go on this journey with you
and and try to see if I can be atranslator, basically.

SPEAKER_00 (33:05):
Yeah, I and I don't know.
I have never really reflected onwhy it came easily enough to me.
It'd be interesting to sort oftake that apart and understand,
you know, was it just the pay?
I'm sure the pay was some of it.
Was it the opportunity to travela little bit?
Yeah, because I had to go aroundthe country.
It was still in architecture.

(33:27):
Yeah, we were we wereessentially trying to
manufacture modern homes, right,in a factory.
And I loved that idea because itwas about making beauty and and
architecture and quality of lifemore accessible to more people,
right?
Because the promise of buildingsomething in the factory was

(33:48):
that you could do it for less.
And so all of a sudden, maybethere was a series of
experiences that that someonecould have, right?
That they could have more glasswith a view or or or more
spacious room or a high-qualityhome that they normally couldn't
have afforded throughtraditional ways, but now they
can't.
So there was something aboutequity already built into that,

(34:10):
which I was very attracted to.
And the possibility of reachingmore people that way was
attractive to me also.
Where were they headquartered?
They were outside of uh of uhBoston, uh, in a place called
Acton.
Acton, Massachusetts.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (34:28):
Which makes sense because you were graduating
Harvard around that time withyour master's.
So you were kind of still inthat general Massachusetts area,
so it made some sense.

SPEAKER_00 (34:36):
Yeah, yeah, definitely.
There's a whole other story ofhow I was supposed to, you know,
Juliet and I were thinking aboutheading down to New York
together to find jobs.
And this is another lesson innegotiation because you know,
when I asked for a little bitmore money, and it seemed like a
lot to me at the time, I askedfor you know$5,000 more dollars.
And Mike said, Well, if I sayyes, will you accept a job?

(34:57):
And I and I panicked and I saidyes.
And then, you know, I toldJuliet, and understandably, she
was so livid with me because shewas like, I thought we were
supposed to be going to New Yorktogether.
Uh and like there's a lessonthere, you know.
First of all, it's not set instone.
Second, go talk to your partner.

(35:18):
You know, it's like all theserookie mistakes.
Absolutely.
Um but you know, anyways, herewe are 20 years later, you know,
with two kids.

SPEAKER_01 (35:26):
So how long did you stay in that role for?

SPEAKER_00 (35:28):
That's a great uh so three years.
And and you know, it whathappens is that in in 2008 the
market crashes, right?
And uh I knew that the writingwas on the wall, so I went
looking for another job.
And that's and I was applyingand I ended up uh interviewing
at Diller, Scaffidio and Renfro.

(35:50):
And Diller Scaffidio and Renfrois, I would say, one of the
pre-eminent firms here in thiscountry and and one of our
exports as well, meaning thatthey have a reputation that
transcends the boundaries of theUnited States.
They're doing cultural work inEurope as well.
They did the Highline, LincolnCenter, the expansion of the

(36:13):
Museum of Modern Art.
And I joined them as theirdirector of business
development.
And I don't tell folks thatstory often because for a long
time I was a little bitembarrassed.
Because in architecture, salesis a no-no word.
You don't talk about salesbecause it seems uh inauthentic.

(36:34):
But that's what it is,essentially.
It's a sales position.
But I think that Liz hired me inpartners, I should ask her, Liz
Diller, the the partner, becauseagain, I bridged languages.
I I she knew that I was trainedas an architect, that I
understood their lexicon, andthat I had the capacity,

(36:55):
potentially, she didn't know forsure, to reach other people and
articulate the value of the firmin extroverted ways.
And that's what I did.
And and I got lucky.
Again, it's luck because Ijoined them before the high line
had opened, before LincolnCenter had opened.
And so we were only 20 people.
And by the time I left, almost10 years later, we were nearly

(37:18):
120 people.
So so I rode the rocket ship.
You know, I can't take creditfor that.
That that's they they werepoised uh for it.
And I got to experience a lotthere through that process.

SPEAKER_01 (37:31):
That's awesome.
That I mean, that's that's a lotof growth, right?
And that's again, I think a it'sit may seem like these roles are
not connected, but there's alinear path, or there is some
not a linear path, but there isdefinitely some overlap in the
skill sets, right?
So you go to Harvard, you studyarchitecture, now you're able to

(37:52):
bridge the knowledge gap and theconversations between sales
folks and the work that thatorganization is doing and
architects.
Now you're basically hired to dothat within an architectural
firm in a different context, butstill being able to, you know,
speak common language andarchitecture to folks in a way
that you appreciatearchitecture, in a way that you

(38:13):
appreciate the skill sets thatcome with it.
The information that you receiveis not going to be foreign like
it would be to me, right?
Like me getting a memo aroundsome of the work that we have to
do in our I wouldn't even knowwhere to start, dude.
I don't even know if memos is athing that you'll look at,
right?
Or just drawings, right?
But so yeah, so for me, youknow, I think I just find it so

(38:34):
remarkable that you're able toreally bring that skill set
along and continue to growprofessionally and think about,
you know, right now we're doingthis in-house within an
architectural firm.
How do we how do we get theright clients?
How do we get the rightprojects, right?
And I know you said sales is alike bad word in architecture
because I'm sure, you know,architects to some degree is

(38:55):
like the visual, the artisticmind, right?
So bringing in the business sidedoesn't work, but then you can't
get to design the Highline orwork on the Highline or work on
the MoMA if you don't go afterthose conversations.
So there's a lot of value inthat and the projects that come
after that.

SPEAKER_00 (39:12):
Entirely.
I mean, you need a wholeapparatus in place in order to
feed the families you're nowemploying.
And it and it's not automatic.
And there's tremendouscompetition out there, and you
and you the world is large andand you have to share your story
with others.
And I got lucky because, again,the nature of the rocket ship, I

(39:37):
got to wrap my arms around moreand more scope and develop a
broader vocabulary.
And so then I startednegotiating contracts for them
and doing fees and traveling andgetting work for them in Europe,
you know, and and in and inother places, understanding HR
issues, operations, you know,balance sheets, financial

(39:58):
statements, all of thathappened.
Because we were also on thefront lines of pursuing work.
I started to develop an attitudeabout the requests for proposals
that we would receive.
And I would start to say tomyself, I think there are better
ways, if I were a client, to getinformation for me that would
help me as a client understandif you're the right firm.

(40:20):
And I also experienced how uhawful some of the uh processes
were towards us, meaning thatwe're still a mom and pop shop.
We we were, in fact, an NWBE.
And oftentimes these procurementprocesses that we went through

(40:42):
were terribly invasive andassaulting to the financial
durability of the practice.
And it's not just for us.
It's the case across the board.
And that started to inform myown perspective about how I
would be as a client, right?
I wouldn't, I wouldn't do itthis way.
I wouldn't ask these questions,I wouldn't ask you to do free

(41:04):
work, I wouldn't treat you likea commodity and service.
I would I would revere yourapproach and thinking to a
project.
And that's what informed when Ifinally got to the EDC, an
approach to how we were curatingand commissioning all the
different services.

SPEAKER_01 (41:22):
So actually, that's a great segue.
So, you know, I get a lot offolks that have been in a role
five, seven, nine years, right?
Like you at this point in yourcareer.
You're somewhere for nine yearsand then you decide to go the
public service route.
Let's go to the New York CityEconomic Development Corporation
and bring my talents there andmy expertise and my perspectives

(41:43):
there.
Was there a moment that madeyou, you know, once you once
you're somewhere for nine years,you can totally, I'm sure, start
to envision the rest of yourcareer in one place, right?
Was there a moment that for youmade you think about what the
next steps could be and why thattiming?

SPEAKER_00 (41:59):
Yeah.
So now we can start to get intosome dangerous territory.
And maybe you'll decide to editthis out.
I don't know.
You know, we'll we'll see howthis goes.
Maybe I'll call you up and belike Redding, maybe maybe delete
that part.

SPEAKER_01 (42:14):
Just don't say any names and don't say anything
that folks are gonna call youabout later.

SPEAKER_00 (42:23):
But you know, and it's you're trying to find uh
walk a fine line with beingvulnerable and transparent with
folks and and useful uh to yourlisteners.
And and so I will say this isnot about politics, what I'm
about to say, therefore.
But in 2016, Donald Trump getselected.
And I'm I was so in the bubbleof New York that I did not

(42:46):
entirely that's not true, that'snot even true of this entirely,
I didn't see it coming.
And maybe a lot of us didn't uheither.
But I I I started to just askthe question, what did I miss?
And who am I not hearing?
And what's the other perspectivethat I'm not being exposed to?

(43:08):
And why am I not engaged inthose conversations?
You know, what's going on?
And so I did a lot ofreflection, thinking, it started
to also uh force me toconsolidate my own approach to
the world and my sense of ofwhat could work and not work,
and my my values, and I I cameto this conclusion, and we

(43:30):
should debate it, and we can wecould talk about uh about this.
That, and this goes back to whatwe were talking about earlier.
When we don't see a way forwardfor ourselves and our children,
we get tribal because it's theit's it's the most effective way
to make as much noise aspossible.
And someone once said this tome, and I don't know if this is

(43:52):
true, but it's an attractiveidea because it helps me explain
certain things.
That what enabled, part of whatenabled the civil rights
movement wasn't just that wewere all more enlightened, it's
that that actually we there wasmore to go around.
And it's not to say that itwasn't without severe struggle
to get to that moment either.

(44:13):
But we we got through uh acertain place.
Ultimately, one argument isbecause there's a sense that
there was enough to go around.
And that when resources areconstrained so severely, it gets
harder to be generous when itcomes to the rights of others
that you don't see in yourtribe.

(44:35):
And because I I was strugglingto find a way to explain the
linear connection between thosemoments in time in the 60s and
70s and where we ended up.
And everybody was saying, oh,we're just we're regressing and
this and that and whatever else.
But I didn't think that thatactually properly addressed the
underlying issues of inequity insociety.

(44:58):
Four decades of wage stagnation,right?
The offshoring of jobs, thegutting of our middle class.
And I just said, you know what,I want to participate in that
conversation more directly.
That that that's what did it.
But the path to EDC wasn'tstraightforward.
I decided for the first time toapply what I was doing for

(45:18):
everybody else, which wasselling them to myself.
And I started to just cold calldevelopers because I thought
maybe that was the way to go.

unknown (45:27):
Right?

SPEAKER_00 (45:28):
Maybe I could move upstream to to where decisions
are being made about how we'respending money in the built
environment.
Right?
If I could say, hey, maybe weneed to be privileging our local
economies, I don't care who youvoted for, actually, but what
you do is important.
You know, masonry, steel, sheetmetal, you know, hanging walls,

(45:50):
whatever it is, painters, right?
Let's let's make sure that we'rejust taking care of our own,
that the this notion of tribe isnot specific to ethnic groups,
but could be all of the country.
And if we do it that way, thenwe're just looking at the ways
in which we're privileging ourlocal craftspeople, right?
It's making, you gotta makestuff to have a robust middle

(46:11):
class.
And you got we can't all be uhuh white-collar uh uh bankers,
Wall Street personal wealthmanagers.
Nothing wrong with that.
But but actually you need arobust class of people making
things, and they need to berevered and they need to be uh
compensated appropriately.
No developer said yes.

(46:31):
They all were like, and I don'tknow, I met with maybe 20, 25 of
them, who whomever would take mycalls.
I I didn't come directly enough,I didn't have any project
management experience, you know,this is a risk-averse industry.
I'm sorry.
But for whatever reason, I afriend knew someone else at the
EDC.
I got to meet them.

(46:52):
There was a role that was justposted, and they said, maybe you
should apply for that.
And that's it.
You know, and and for I willforever be grateful to the EDC
and to the people who were thereto take that risk on me because
nobody else did.
That's awesome.

SPEAKER_01 (47:08):
I think, you know, I I think that that's one of those
moments, right?
Where like once 2016 happens andyou're in your field for you
know over 10 years at thatpoint, it's just an inflection
point of like, girl, how do Ilisten differently?
What am I missing?
How do I like be part of thisconversation?
What is happening in government,maybe not at the federal level,

(47:28):
but what's happening in yourcity where I live and where I'm
you know building my family andall the things.
How do I like just participatemore in that?
So I I appreciate you kind ofleaning in in that way.
And you showed up at EDCbringing all those talents,
bringing all those perspectives,right?
And really as a true partner andworking for New Yorkers and with
New Yorkers there.

(47:49):
So, you know, I definitely echoyour your gratitude for EDC.
I think I've learned so muchthere.
Um, and the people there arejust freaking brilliant,
honestly.
Like the folks that are stillthere, the alumni of EDC, all
the things, you know, it's justfolks, it's just such a a place
that that dedicates theircareers to to New Yorkers.
Um, so it's awesome.

SPEAKER_00 (48:09):
Yeah, bound by public service and this sense of
uh bringing balance to our ourour nature, actually.

SPEAKER_01 (48:19):
Yeah.
So you also do something else.
You tend to teach people thingswho are an adjunct professor of
sorts.
Tell me more about when did youstart doing that and why why do
you feel like that's importantto do?

SPEAKER_00 (48:31):
So I I I love teaching.
I find it to be my happy place.
In fact, this I this thisconsulting firm that I've
started is in my mind actuallyjust an extension of teaching
and sharing knowledge withothers.
After I graduated, I had thechance to teach a little bit at
Parsons, and I was teaching intheir business administration

(48:54):
program, and it was wonderfuland it was rewarding.
But then attention turned tojust life and and and working.
At some moment, I realized, youknow, I think I have just enough
perspective to share with folksagain, and I wanted to get back
to that place, and again had thereal luck, the kindness of

(49:16):
others, the belief from others,and the opportunity, therefore.
And so simultaneously I wasgiven the chance to teach at
both the Cooper Union and atHarvard, and and the course is
on the history and future of theart museum.
But really, the art museum isused as a lens with which to
look at cultural institutionsmore broadly, their relevance,

(49:40):
their usefulness again, and andour trajectory as a society, and
the role of those institutionsin that trajectory.
And the particular set ofvalues, not just that we should
reflect, but that we shouldespouse.
So that's been such a highlightfor me during this last year.

(50:01):
It's a sacred space for me, thisrelationship with students.
They give me so much uh energyand meaning and hope.
It's a wonderful place to bewith them.

SPEAKER_01 (50:15):
So, you know, one of the things that we like to get
across at within career treatcode conversations is how much
money can folks make in thesefields?
And I think you're a goodexample of this because you've
already shared early on in yourcareer, going from like 40 grand
and making the mistake oftelling your next employer
exactly what you were making tothe making 65 grand, right?

(50:35):
But then as someone that hasdone it within an in-house
architectural firm, publicservice, uh anchor institution
like the Matt, right?
Like, how much money can folksmake generally in these fields?

SPEAKER_00 (50:49):
Yeah, great.
And you know, this is uh there'sa lesson in this.
And now let's see, how muchcourage do I have to share?
Uh one of my one of the lecturesthat I give that the students
seem to enjoy, I map out mytrajectory, but uh I I also
show, I try to show the the thesalary as I go along to them.

(51:12):
And one of the things that I dois whenever I talk about
institutions, I do org chartsand I then also help them
understand what people makebecause information is power,
and all of that kind ofinformation is often either
obfuscated, hidden, or or justuh uh held very tightly right
from them.
And so they they're not in aposition to understand the value

(51:35):
as it's translated to fromincome to the roles.
And part of the story to them iswhere it fluctuates tremendously
as well, meaning that when Iwent from the prefab
manufacturing company at Acton,where I started at 65, but I

(51:57):
ended after three years at$120,000.
Because you're in sales, andthat's the other thing you
learn.
When you're in sales and ifyou're the rainmaker, you have
leverage.
Same no matter what.
If you're a partner at a firm,it's because it's likely due to
you bringing in work.
You have to bring in work,right?
And when I went from$120,000 toDiller, it was to$85,000.

(52:23):
So I took a pay cut.
But I remember Mike, my firstboss, and by the way, we're
gonna loop around to thisbecause Mike is now with me
again 20 years later, and it's akind of amazing moment for me.
He gave me great advice, and hesaid, you know, he anticipated
the rocket ship.
He was like, This is a this is afirm that is poised.
You're gonna learn a lot, and asthey grow, you're gonna have the

(52:46):
chance to expand yourvocabulary.
It's like, and he goes, at yourage, it seems like a huge cut,
but it's not.
You will figure it out and makeit work.
Go to the right place, you know,lean into the name brand.
So I went.
And over the course of 10 years,by the time I left as an
associate principal, I wasmaking several hundred thousand

(53:07):
to go to the EDC, where even asa vice president, my pay was cut
in half.
No choice.
Right?
Yeah, yeah.
Uh but that was an incrediblemoment where, you know, again,
probably if someone were to askme, what is the most critical
decision that you ever made inthe trajectories that helped
your trajectories, it was mylife partner.

(53:30):
It's my wife all the way, right?
I got I chose the right partner.
And you know what?
I didn't choose her, she choseme.
I got lucky.
And she enabled that again.
And it wasn't withoutdifficulty.
We had to tap our 401k.
There were some moments thatwere not easy, but we learned
who we were as a couple, even inthat.
And it grew, didn't grow toomuch.

(53:51):
You know, it was 150,000 or sowhen I was senior vice president
at the Met.
I think sorry, at the EDC.
And the Met, I can tell you,because it's public.

unknown (54:01):
Right?

SPEAKER_00 (54:01):
You go to the Form 990, you can look it up.
That's what I tell my students.
You should see them.
They're all on their computers.
They start Form 990, everything.
And uh my starting salary was350, right?
And then by the time I left, itwas over four, something like
that.
Uh, and now we're doing our ownthing.
And it's less again.

(54:21):
It's less.
It's not more, it's less.
Doing doing our own venture.
But that's okay.

SPEAKER_01 (54:27):
Because you see the vision, you see the trajectory,
you realize this is basicallybringing you back to those early
days when you're like, it's apoised firm, stay the course,
and you'll get right back upthere.

SPEAKER_00 (54:39):
Yeah, and if not, what I do have is flexibility
and time, right?
We're after time, and there's anthere's a really nice balance
that's happened.
And I do believe that if youmake just enough to provide for
your family and both food andeducation, you have your health
and you have time, you're 99%there to happiness.

(55:01):
You really are.
And everything else is just youknow, it's marginal, actually.
So, but it's hard to articulatethat to folks.

SPEAKER_01 (55:10):
You mentioned now kind of things coming back full
circle with I I I believe hisname was Mike.
Can you explain how you all arenow working together again in
some capacity?

SPEAKER_00 (55:20):
Yeah, yeah.
So Mike is uh was semi-retiring.
So what happened when I was inSeptember of 24, what we were
doing at the Met was gettingnoticed.
And I was getting a lot ofcalls, calls from the British
Museum, calls from otherinstitutions all around the
world asking questions aroundhow are you doing what you're

(55:40):
doing?
And would you guide us?
And often my answer was, well,I'm happy to just chat with you
casually about it, but otherwiseno.
And well, one museum that wasparticularly fascinating and
interesting and relevant to me,and it's the Allentown Art
Museum.
So the Allentown Art Museumstarts speaking to me sometime
in September of 2024, and thenshortly thereafter, the Art

(56:02):
Institute of Chicago also.
And suddenly I had these twoinstitutions.
And the Allentown Art Museum isparticularly fascinating because
if you know anything about thehistory of that area in
Pennsylvania, right, adjacent toBethlehem, Bethlehem steel,
Allentown about textiles, silk,the heart, one of the hearts of

(56:24):
industrial uh strength, not justin the United States, but in the
world.
And now is having to pivot theireconomies.
What is the role of a culturalinstitution in a place like
that?
Right.
How is it relevant to folks?
How does it provide a sense of away forward?
And how does it bring peopletogether?

(56:46):
Wow, on the front lines, right,of what's happening for us right
now.
I'm sure the Met is alsoimmensely relevant, but this is
right there in the heart of it.
And the architecture firmbrought me into it and said, you
know, we think you could bereally helpful to them.
And that's how the conversationstarted.
Where am I going with this?
It started to snowball, right?

(57:07):
And I said, I think I can go, Imake a go at this.
I decided to make a go at it.
And then shortly thereafter, Iend up uh uh speaking to the
Boys and Girls Club in Queens,and they're embarking on the
largest boys and girls club inthe country.
And then shortly thereafter,there's work that starts
happening in Los Angeles, andit's just just the network
that's happened over time.

(57:28):
And when people found out that Iwas leaving and I was doing
this, I started getting calls.
It started to grow.
And I was talking and I stay intouch with Mike and I talked to
Mike, and I'm like, I said toMike, I think there's something
here, man.
I think it's growing.
And he had just sold his lastcompany and was kind of ready to
chill out.
He calls me up the next day andhe goes, I think I want to be

(57:51):
part of this.
I think I can help you.
I think I can help you.
And we decided to do thatjourney together.
So now all of a sudden I have amentor, my mentor when I from 20
years ago, he's still to me veryimportant and a mentor.
But uh, it's fascinating thattechnically he's working for me.

(58:12):
But I don't see it that way, hedoesn't see it that way, right?
It's it's more that he's in mylife again, which is really
great.
And uh in fact, the people inthe company are folks comprised
of folks from my life andvarious different parts.
They're all being assembled andbrought together, and I tell
you, one of the most incredibleblessings of all of this is that

(58:34):
I I get to have a say, I get tocurate that that community of
people who I adore and care forgreatly, and I'm just surrounded
by them.
And so life is rich.
That's awesome.

SPEAKER_01 (58:47):
Are there any forms of media that have helped guide
you personally orprofessionally?
This can be books, podcasts,subscriptions, whatever you deem
appropriate that you think someof our listeners should try to
check out.

SPEAKER_00 (59:01):
Yeah, that that's a tough question.
Because a lot of the media thatI engage now is to help me relax
and distract me.
Which is fine.

SPEAKER_01 (59:09):
If it's if it's helpful in that way, that's fine
too.
If it brings me that piece, ifit's a book, a novel, a podcast,
uh whatever that has actuallyhelped you disconnect, that
maybe would help others.
Or TV show, whatever that is.

SPEAKER_00 (59:24):
If you were to follow my Instagram and look at
you know, like who it is thatI'm now like my feed, it's
filled with two things.
It's filled with um puppies andgolden retrievers specifically,
because the kids are lobbyinghard for one, and me too.
We've got one last holdout, if Ican convince Juliet that we're
there.
And then it's uh comedy, it'sactually stand up comedy.

(59:47):
And I find it to be anincredible source of wisdom and
comfort.
There's implicit criticism ofthe boundaries and the fringes,
it's a platform.
Or social commentary, uhreflection, but in in some ways
uh in a very accessible way,manner.

(01:00:09):
So actually, comedy has been areally wonderful place for me to
just hang out and watch uh andlisten to.
What are you most proud of inyour career?
I should have anticipated thatquestion.
I think that I know what theanswer is.
I wonder if I can articulate itcorrectly.

(01:00:30):
It's in the the the differencethat I'm I hope I'm making in
the lives of the people directlyaround me.
And I don't even mean clients, Imean the people that I work
with.
That's a clan, that's a that'sanother tribe, that's another uh
community.
And I know that folks say it'snot family, but the truth of it

(01:00:55):
is you spend more time withthese people than you do with
your family.
And the same tenets and that arerequired for a functional
relationship with your partnerapply to your relationships to
the people you work with.
That's right.
Because you want to get to thatplace of easy communication,

(01:01:15):
vulnerability, transparency, youhave to build trust so that you
can get to that place to reallyengage and solve problems
quickly.
You you have to invest in therelationships.

SPEAKER_01 (01:01:26):
Is there anything else we haven't discussed today
that the world should knowabout, Jalen?

SPEAKER_00 (01:01:30):
Oh no, I don't know, man.
Enough.
I I I was going back to thefirst comment I was making
earlier, and I don't know when Imade it to you before we
formally started or not.
I'm very I was very hesitant tojoin you because I genuinely
believe that there are theseprofound moments of kindness

(01:01:51):
from others that have enabled mytrajectory more so than myself.
And I didn't know, you know, ifin the end there was anything
insightful for me to say thatyou haven't already covered, by
the way, with your 80 plus uhdiscussions with folks and the

(01:02:12):
incredible sweeping array ofconversations you've already
had.
You know, what way could I bepossibly relevant or useful to
others?
But in the end, it's anopportunity to be reflected a
little bit, take some risks, Isuppose.
We'll see.

SPEAKER_01 (01:02:26):
And I think just the same way that some of those
stories resonated with you, thisstory will resonate with others.
Everyone's path is different,and everyone's starting point
and point at where we discuss,where we have this conversation
is different.
So I I appreciate you taking thetime to come and share some of
your path, your wisdom, thingsthat you've learned along along
the way, and just being openabout resources, ways to get

(01:02:49):
information, all of the things.
Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 (01:02:51):
Well, thanks for having me.
You're you're doing incredible,meaningful work for others, and
it's it's it's generous.
So thank you for having me,truly.
Thank you.
Appreciate it.

SPEAKER_01 (01:03:03):
I hope you enjoyed this episode.
If you did and believe on themission we're on, please like,
rate, and subscribe to thispodcast on whatever platform
you're using, and share thispodcast with your friends and
your networks.
Make sure you follow us onInstagram and LinkedIn at Career
Cheat Code and tell us people orcareers you would like to see
highlighted.
See you next week with some morecheat codes.
Peace.

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085 | From Architect To Builder of Impact w/ Jhaelen Hernandez-Eli

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}085 | From Architect To Builder of Impact w/ Jhaelen Hernandez-Eli