Nani Vishwanath - Sr. Strategist, Inclusive Design - Career Contrast

Episode Transcript
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Michael Lane Smith (00:16):
Michael Lane-Smith.
As a career recruiter, I'mfascinated by the variety of job
paths or careers that peoplecommit to, and career contrast
is all about work how peoplework, the state of work and in
each episode we'll explorequestions that provide insight
into the problems people solvein their jobs every day and
ultimately seek to capture theexperience of an informational
interview from the perspectiveof a talent expert.

(00:38):
Joining me today is Nani VishnuNani.
Welcome to the podcast.
Thank you for coming.

Nani Vishwanath (00:44):
Nani Vishnu Happy to be here.

thanks, michael um, as always, my first
question what did you want to bewhen you grew up?

so you know, the only job that I ever thought
about what I wanted to be whenI grew up was when I was quite
young.
I was like, I want to say thirdor so grade, um, and that was
to be the president of theUnited States, who was also a
cartoon artist on the side.
That was my whole plan andsince then obviously I no longer

(01:12):
want to be that.
I'll make that clear.
But I never really had a dreamjob.
I never could really articulatewhat that was.
And I think, knowing now what Ido, it makes sense, because
what I wanted to do, what I donow, what did not exist when I
was a child, or when I was inschool, or even forging the
beginning of my career.

That's awesome.
So, yeah, what is your jobtitle now?
And, yeah, where do you work?
If you're willing to share thatas well, Sure.

So I have two jobs.
One is Senior Strategist ofInclusive Design at REI Co-op,
and the second is a facilitatorand consultant with the Courage
Collective.

Right on, let's talk about the REI job
first.
Could you tell us the story ofhow you got your job, maybe your
career path up to this point?

Yeah, I've had a pretty winding career path.
I would say it was far fromlinear and you know, in my days
of which I'll mention studentaffairs and spending time with
college students I would oftenunderline the fact that career
paths don't have to be linearand that often felt like a
breath of fresh air for peoplewho have been told their whole
lives to have a game plan and astraight line toward where they

(02:25):
would be.
But I graduated from theUniversity of Puget Sound way
back in the olden days of 2009.
When I was at that particularcollege, I started out with my
batch trying to pursue abachelor's in chemistry because
my dad had really convinced methat being an orthodontist would

(02:49):
be the right career path for me.
Spoiler alert did not pursuethat career path and in fact it
was so terrible at some of thoseclasses my heart wasn't in it
right and I didn't know why Iwas doing that.
So I give a lot of credit to myfirst year advisor who sat me
down after my first semester ofcollege and said what do you

(03:10):
like?
Because my grades weren't good,I wasn't doing well
academically and she asked mewhat I liked and I told her I
liked art and she said I wantyou to take an art class, and I
had to kind of reshape my path.
I was the first child ofimmigrant parents, and going to
a liberal arts school and takingan art class was far beyond the

(03:32):
plan that I had been set out on.
So I did, though, and I startedtaking art classes, and I also
started taking business classesat that time, thinking about the
combination of the two,specifically within, kind, of
the marketing space, and I endedup pursuing a business degree
and had an art minor, and then Igraduated at the peak of the

(03:53):
recession, and that was just areally challenging time for
folks who didn't have a closeconnection to a lot of
workplaces to be able to land ajob, and so I spent some time
kind of grappling with that andended up back at my alma mater
working in their alumni officeand spent about a few years

(04:13):
there building the beginning ofmy career, doing alumni
relations and knowing what I do.
Now.
I was actually doing some workin DEI.
Back then.
I was supporting alumniaffinity gatherings,
particularly for the LGBTQ pluscommunity, for Black alumni, and

(04:33):
starting to understand what itmeant for folks to be able to
connect based on thoseidentities.
At that time I also startedmanaging a student group and I
fell in love with that.
Started managing a studentgroup and I fell in love with
that.
I fell in love with learningabout how students grew and
developed and that's when Idecided maybe I should get a
degree in this.
So I went back to school andpursued my master's in education

(04:53):
, specifically in studentdevelopment administration, at
Seattle University and spent acouple of years there really
starting to learn about mypassion in higher education and
specifically in supportingstudents in their own
development.
And then I really started tolearn that it was the students
who were in from marginalizedbackgrounds or who were

(05:17):
grappling with a variety ofexperiences.
That really, really was what.
That was where my passion wasis really helping them to
understand who they were asleaders.

Yeah.

So that took me to the university of washington
where we crossed paths, and Ispent a few years there driving
leadership development programsfor a number of students and
just couldn't say enough goodthings about the things that I
learned there, about thestudents I interacted with and
about what I learned about theworld and the way that people

(05:46):
approach it.
And when we talked aboutleadership in that role, we
talked a lot about who gets todefine what leadership is and
what are the messages we've beentold about leadership that only
invite a few, and so those werethe things I was starting to
kind of open my mind to.
After a a few years there.
I had had my first child andwas needing to figure out my

(06:09):
next career step and ended upwanting to take what I had
learned in the higher educationrealm into a new field, and that
was into tech.
And I ended up at what was anemployee experience software
company and I was on thecustomer facing side of that
company for some time helpingdifferent clients or large

(06:33):
organizations think about theiremployee experience and thinking
about how they're developingtheir people and taking care of
them and their well-being, andthat naturally brought up
questions around inclusion,around diversity, around that
experience as it relates topeople from different identities
.
So I spent a little bit of timeon the client facing side and
then I ended up in HR and Ispent some time in HR doing some

(06:56):
HR business partner work,driving the beginning of some
diversity and inclusion work,specifically helping grow our
employee resource groups andsome of that.
And then 2020 happened and amongmany other things that happened
in 2020, notably, george Floydwas murdered and there was a

(07:17):
huge global conversation aroundDEI and about equity and about
people's identities andexperiences and systemic
oppression, and I started tofeel frustrated at that
particular tech company aboutwhat we were really doing and
who was it really for and couldwe be doing some more.
And so some friends of mine atthat company and then beyond, we

(07:42):
started to put together our ownvision of what it could look
like to have meaningful deiconversations in the workplace,
and that was the birth of thecourage collective, which is a
workplace consulting andtraining organization that still
lives today and it started offreally squarely in the dei
training world, but then itblossomed into a broader

(08:04):
workplace leadership and cultureorganization that it is today.
At that time and I'm getting toyour question about how I got to
REI, I promise I also startedto do some personal advocacy,
just knowing what was happeningin the moment, knowing how much
I had cared about DEI so long,and there was this, finally,

(08:25):
this moment where people werepaying attention, and so I
started reaching out to brandsbecause, as you'll remember, in
2020, a lot of brands startedputting out their own
commitments to dei these kind ofsplashy pages on their websites
or the black square oninstagram or whatever it might
have been to indicate that theywere a part of this work, and in

(08:52):
some cases, that was real andin some cases it wasn't.
And I started to ask brands somequestions, and one particular
brand I came across had wasLululemon, and they had put out
their own work around DEI at thetime and, as a consumer, I was
looking at their website and Inoticed that a lot of their
products had culturallyappropriative names, and so I

(09:14):
wrote out, wrote a message tothem.
I was not the only one who did,other people did but I ended up
engaging in a conversation withthe social media person,
engaging in a conversation withthe social media person and at
first they kind of dismissed meand then I kept at it and
eventually it became a largerthing.
They pulled the line ofclothing that I was, I was
critiquing, and they've renamedthe product.

(09:36):
And then a news story picked itup, the whole story about our
engagement and what had happened, and it was.
It was an interesting momentand I had never, you know, done
that to try to get a new story,but I think it did help share a
bit of the impetus behind.
They're really authenticallycommitting to this work that's

(09:59):
when ari I reached out at thetime they were doing some work
on yoga and wanted to beculturally mindful in that and
asked if I would mind being aconsultant in that role, as just
an outside consultant.
And then I happened to see thatthey were hiring for this job.
I realized, oh, I can takethese skills that I've honed in

(10:27):
all these chapters in my lifeand actually apply them to a
brand persona and how the brandshows up, and that felt really
new and exciting.
So that is how I got to REI.

That's awesome.
That's awesome and there's alot of really interesting pieces
of wisdom and parts of yourjourney that I do want to dive
into.
I'm going to back way up alittle bit to your time in
higher ed and you know youmentioned getting a master's in
education and I guess you knowI'm curious from your
perspective, would you say thatmore advanced degree was

(10:56):
necessary?
Was it required for you to getinto that space and ultimately,
you know, leading even into HR?
Do you think that master's wasnecessary to get you where
you're at today?

That's a good question.
I think, had I stayed instudent affairs, which was
initially my intent, it waspretty clear that having a
master's was necessary in orderto grow.
I think a lot of higher edinstitutions have a pretty clear
perspective on you need Xdegree to be at X level.
I think there's maybe a littlebit more variance now, but it

(11:27):
felt pretty strict when I waspursuing that.
So had I stayed in that field?
Yes, I don't think it wasnecessarily like a requirement
for the other chapters of mycareer, but it was certainly
helpful.
I I went about that degreebecause of sort of in a
transactional way.
I thought in order to get thesejobs, I need to have this
degree.

(11:47):
But, it became a much moretransformational experience On
the other side.
The school was really reallythey really really prioritized
reflection and kind of holisticgrowth and I think as a result
of that I grew as a person andin my own beliefs around social
justice by spending that timewith that extra degree.

Right on.
What kinds of stuff did youlearn in that master's of
education?
You mentioned it being veryreflective in nature.
What was maybe like the corecurriculum pieces and the
development from there to thatmore reflective piece?
Kind of tell that story, thatjourney.

You know, some of it was sort of tactical
around, kind of how you run anadministration within a higher
ed context.
We had a course on kind of thelegal things that you might face
with student life, which wasreally interesting.
So some of that was kind ofmore tactical.
But the other pieces aroundthere were several courses on
social justice, a few courses onkind of multicultural growth.

(12:44):
But honestly, the most learningI did within that program was I
had an apprenticeship where Iwas working in the leadership
development office on theSeattle University campus and
working directly with studentsand that's when I just I just
kept learning about the variousways that people enter a college
context and the stories andbeliefs and experiences that

(13:05):
they bring, and that's where mygrowth happened.

That's awesome.
That's awesome, and youmentioned, ultimately, your
current role.
Could you remind me of thetitle?

Yeah, senior Strategist, inclusive Design.
I just got a promotion thisweek, so I'm getting used to
saying it.

Michael Lane Sm (13:22):
Congratulations , congratulations, inclusive
Design.
So you know I want to.
I want to go into just a littlebit of history about DE&I, make
some definitions clear for theaudience and just talk about.
You know where DE&I came fromand you know why I think it's
important and why we're havingthis conversation today.
You know the the first thingthat comes to mind when I hear
DE&I today March 11th 2025, is,I think, immediately about the

(13:47):
government, and in the firstcouple of weeks of this current
administration, the chairman ofthe Joint Chiefs, the first
Black member of the Joint Chiefsof Staff, first chairman of the
Joint Chiefs of Staff to beAfrican-American was fired from
his role.
The Coast Guard Admiral, thefirst woman to be a leader of
one of our armed forces, wasalso fired.

(14:07):
The Trump administration putout a bunch of information about
being anti-DEI, essentiallyfiring employees in federal
government who have worked onthese programs or are advocating
for these programs, and soobviously we're at a very
different point from 2020.
2020 was a time where I thinkthere was a lot of attention and

(14:29):
support in building andenhancing these programs and I
should very clearly call out itdidn't come from a vacuum.
We already spoke to the deathof George Floyd.
You know him being murdered bya police officer in public, on
camera.
Those kind of instances alsodon't happen in a vacuum.
I will specifically call backto the 1960s.

(14:52):
President John F Kennedy signedan executive order Executive
Order 10925, requiringgovernment contractors to take
affirmative action to ensureapplicants are employed and that
employees are treated duringemployment without regard to
their race, creed, color ornational origin.
The 1960s was a time ofviolence.
I would say I think it'simportant to call out John F

(15:16):
Kennedy, the president whosigned that executive order, was
assassinated.
That same decade, Malcolm X wasassassinated, martin Luther
King Jr was assassinated andthere was lots of other violence
in the streets.
You know with regards to, youknow specific policies and
procedures codified ingovernment, like redlining, and
then, of course, you know a lotof soft power being used to

(15:39):
exclude people.
And so in 1964, after JFK'sassassination, the Civil Rights
Act passes, establishes theEqual Employment Opportunity
Commission, which is agovernment entity responsible
for investigating discriminationin government and where
employees can file complaints inUS court through the EEOC, for

(16:00):
discrimination at their privateorganizations as well
discrimination at their privateorganizations as well.
And so, just to be clear, youknow those laws, those
institutions were created andchanged because of widespread
abuse and exclusion.
And I think we owe a lot to youknow that specific effort, that
time period to institute changethat you know, I think, follows

(16:20):
you know those values and youknow meets the letter of the law
there.
But, as I said, you know we'reat a very different time now.
We're at a time where, you know, the EEOC maybe isn't fully
disbanded, but certainly it'sbeen clear that the government
has put out statements thatthey're not going to enforce
laws previously enforced by theEEOC.
And so, you know, obviously Ithink one could point at these

(16:44):
efforts and say you know, nowwe're clearly making hiring
decisions based off of race andgender, at least in the federal
government, which you know,according to laws passed by
Congress, is illegal and this isa very US centric viewpoint.
I know that there's a largerglobal conversation, at least at
my company, about what DE&Ilooks like, what it's for.

(17:05):
I guess my first question, kindof following that diatribe from
a historical perspective, isyou know, when you think about
DE&I, what does DE&I look like,even just in the most basic
forms in the workplace?
You know from your perspectiveas someone who's a practitioner
of that today.

Yeah, it's a good question, I think
unfortunately, given the statusof things like you alluded to, I
think DEI has become sort of ameaningless acronym in a lot of
places.
People don't actuallyunderstand what it means and
what the letters in that acronymactually mean, and that's
something that I spend time onwhenever I'm having these
conversations.
And so when we talk aboutdiversity, it is about the

(17:46):
representation, it is aboutwho's in the room, who's not,
what perspectives are includedwhich are not, and simply
understanding that we need arange of those opinions in order
to have better outcomes in alot of different ways.
But that's one part of it, andI think a lot of times, people
who don't understand DEI want tostop there and say, okay, I see

(18:07):
you're just going to try tomeet a quota of people from X
background and that's it.
But it's simply not about that.
It is simply you mustunderstand the full acronym.
So D is about the representation, e is equity right, it's about
access, and that can look likeaccess to resources, access to
power, access to materials youneed.

(18:28):
So what I'm doing right now atREI is much more on the brand
side, thinking about products weoffer and thinking about an
industry level of equity.
And then the I as inclusion isthat idea of feeling a deep
sense of belonging in yourauthentic self and being able to
show up and feel like this is aplace for me where I really can

(18:52):
feel like I belong.
And when we look at each partof that acronym, we have to say
who gets to feel like theybelong, who has access to
resources and power, and we needto examine that in any
workplace or for any company ororganization in order for it to
be a place where more people canthrive.

(19:12):
And the best part of this work,when it's at its best, is it's
better for everybody.
It's not about uplifting onecommunity at the expense of
another.
It is truly about maintainingprogress across many, many
different communities.

Yeah, yeah, and you spoke earlier to at your
time, I think at UPS, that is,university of Puget Sound,
working with affinity gatheringat companies I've worked at.
I think we've called themaffinity groups opportunities
for folks who have similarbackgrounds but maybe
underrepresented backgrounds intheir spaces, where they can
gather and celebrate each otherand receive and give recognition

(19:50):
.
You know what does that looklike from your experience, and
how else would you describeaffinity groups or affinity
gatherings for our listeners?

Yeah, I think at a lot of organizations
they're called employee resourcegroups.
They can have a number ofdifferent names, but they're
those kinds of places orcommunities based on identity or
experience, that folks can cometogether.
So I've seen companies thathave specific groups for folks
from different racial or ethnicbackgrounds.
I've seen groups for parents orcaregivers, I've seen, you know

(20:21):
, for the LGBTQ plus community,et cetera, because, simply put,
our experiences on this planetare impacted by our identities
and it is nice to be able toshare space and community with
others who understand it and alot of companies.
I think what was interesting in2020 is a lot of companies put
ERDs, or employee resourcegroups, out there, but without

(20:44):
the right support they need, andfor these groups to be able to
really thrive, there needs to besome pieces in order, for
example, some resources behindthem.
We see a lot of employeeresource groups that they're
asked to do a lot on behalf ofthe company and there's no pay
behind the time that is beingasked of them, and there's no
pay behind the time that isbeing asked of them, and so

(21:05):
that's something that's highlyrecommended, also having it
clear about what is the scope oftheir work, because for some
employee resource groups.
Suddenly they're tasked witheducating the rest of the
company when really what theyneed is just to be able to have
community with one another.
So some of those things need tobe in place for these groups to
really be able to have success.
But having a space where youcan relate to somebody based on

(21:29):
an aspect of your identity canbe so powerful, particularly
when that identity is lessrepresented within a workplace.

Absolutely, absolutely.
And you know I always reachback to again.
You know these resources, thesepractices come from a place of.
You know we have made mistakesin the past.
You know we can do better, wecan be more inclusive.
We can really benefit as acompany, as a culture.
You know, from thesedifferences what other types of
organizations have you played arole in, participated in, or

(21:58):
would you encourage listenerslook up if they're interested in
learning more about theseorganizations in, or would you
encourage listeners look up ifthey're interested in learning
more about these organizations?
Things like ColorCom, which isa communications conference and
group for, you know,professionals in the
communication space where theycan lift each other up.

You know, speaking from where I am right
now at REI, there are so manyincredible organizations that
are specifically built aroundgathering folks based on
identity and with theirrelationship to time outside.
So my own personal experienceyou know, I've gone to
gatherings from an organizationcalled Trail Mixed Collective,

(22:34):
which is partially based out ofSeattle and he has such a good
name and they are specificallybringing women of color together
and talking about time outsideand organizing activities
outside where you can be aroundpeople who you share identities
with, when that's really not thecase often in outdoor industry
culture.

(22:54):
That's something we're oftentrying to break is the narrative
that outdoor industry has hasbeen so often painted as white,
cisgender, able-bodied men.
We often joke like a beardedguy hanging off a cliff and
wearing a flannel right, andwhile that man can have his
experience outside, it's not theonly relationship to nature

(23:16):
that there is, and so there areso many groups that are really
trying to build differentstories, and so so many groups
that are really trying to builddifferent stories and so
recommend checking out.
The REI Cooperative Action Fundis our sort of one of our
philanthropic entities, andthere's a huge list of groups
based on identity that spendtime outside and recommend
people check them out.

Yeah, that's awesome.
You know, I think at this pointin the conversation I'd love to
address, you know, a majorcriticism that I see a lot right
now around DE&I, which is, youknow that you know, if you are
creating these groups that areexclusive to you know, these
underrepresented groups, likeit's a trail mixed collective,
like, as a white person, as awhite bearded male wearing

(24:00):
flannel, like that space clearlyisn't for me.
I wouldn't be welcome there.
Like, what would you say tosomeone who had that type of
criticism or concern about,about those spaces?

You know it's.
It's a, I think, a naturalconcern that would come up, and
then I think we have to have theconversation about the fact
that many of these spaces werecreated with just these few in
mind, and there are so manyopportunities already for folks
to spend time outside andexperience being with others who

(24:32):
share those dominant identities.
However, for many folks wherethat feels less comfortable or
less prevalent, having a reallydedicated, safe space is really
meaningful, and there are plentyof groups that want to bring
people together across identity,and so we have to understand
that people have differentrelationships with this thing,

(24:54):
which is complicated, and wehave to make sure folks have the
resources that they need, andso, simply put, I guess these
things were not built with manyin mind, and so, in order for us
to get to a more equitableplace where folks feel like this
outdoors is for them, we haveto create targeted, specific

(25:14):
opportunities.

Yeah, I think the reality is mechanisms
as a business process are thingsthat people put in place for
specific outcomes, andoftentimes as a business, or as
things that people put in placefor specific outcomes.
And you know, oftentimes as abusiness or as a government,
you're trying to make thingsmore efficient and more
effective.
And you know, oftentimes whenyou're thinking about efficiency
and effectiveness you aretargeting very specific outcomes

(25:36):
and not keeping in mind, youknow, a wider array of
considerations.
And so you know, I see DE&Ifrom a business perspective as a
mechanism for inclusion, as abusiness process put in place to
make sure that the machine thatproduces money as a business
also produces a welcomingcommunity where all people can

(25:57):
come and deliver great work, andthe benefits of that, I think,
are pretty obvious.
One of my favorite ice creamshops is called Wanderlust and
it's an ice cream shop thatfeatures flavors from all over
the globe.
That place wouldn't exist if wedidn't have at least a
community here in Los Angelesthat celebrated that diversity.
Speaking of kind of mechanismsas a business process for

(26:21):
inclusion, we talked aboutaffinity groups.
Are there other kind ofmechanisms as a business process
for inclusion?
We talked about affinity groups.
Are there other kind ofmechanisms or business processes
from a DE&I perspective thatyou could speak to when it comes
to adding value to a company,creating inclusion really
anything related to DE&I.

Yeah, I'll spend a minute talking about
what I'm really driving rightnow at REI, which is around
inclusive design, and inclusivedesign and inclusive design is a
fairly well-known concept, butthe way we think about it is the
idea of designing with and for,with being very important part
of that with and formarginalized communities, in

(26:56):
order to improve the experienceor outcomes for everybody, and
there are countless examples ofthis in history.
You talked about disabilityadvocacy already.
A common reference we use inthis space is around the curb
cut effect.
So if you think about anysidewalk that you come across
that has sort of that divot init for a wheelchair, that was

(27:17):
part of disability access workin the 1970s and that was for
wheelchairs, right Forwheelchair use.
However, designed with and forthat particular community, the
outcomes are better for so manyright.
We use it now for a bike, for astroller, with your suitcase,
your groceries, whatever itmight be.
That particular innovation hasimproved the outcomes for so

(27:40):
many different people and thereare countless examples of this,
like I mentioned in history.

Even the little robot delivery men use
the ramps.
Yes, they love those ramps,right?

Yeah, totally.
Another popular reference weuse OXO.
It makes a vegetable peeler andthat brand.
The founder's wife hadarthritis and so she was using a
metal vegetable peeler day inand day out was hurting her hand
.
So he, the founder, thought I'mgoing to create something more

(28:10):
comfortable, added that siliconehandle and that has changed the
household appliance game foreverybody.
Right?
That made the experience betterfor everybody.
So, like I said, there are justso many examples of this and,
in terms of efficiency, whenwe're creating something like
this, we're maximizing theoutcome for many different

(28:30):
people.
So at REI, an example aroundthis was we were kind of
revisiting some of our hike andbackpack apparel, specifically a
line called Trail Made, whichis around sort of this like
entry level people who areinterested in hiking and
backpacking, and we did somelistening to various communities

(28:52):
, specifically those whorepresented some marginalized
communities, and amazingorganizations like Latino
Outdoors, 52 Hikes Challenge,the Venture Out Project these
are just some awesomeorganizations to understand what
were some of the barriers thatthey were experiencing, and we
learned things like, for example, the intuitive use of a

(29:13):
backpack, a hiking backpack.
I don't know how to put this onproperly, so I'm too
intimidated, I'm not going touse it.
Everything to the colors Peoplewere like can we have less
beige in the outdoor industry,please Like?
I want to be like myself whenI'm wearing this stuff.
And then you know, our partnerUnlikely Hikers shared with us

(29:35):
the real limitations around sizeinclusivity, both with apparel
and gear, when it came to hikingand backpacking, and so, with
those insights in mind, wereally transformed that
particular collection, and itwas more size inclusive than
ever, both the clothing, thebackpacks, the sleeping pads and
the sleeping bags.

(29:56):
Prior to that point, we learnedthat for many people, they had
to bring two backpackingsleeping bags on their trips and
zip them together because therewas such a limited offering,
and so that was a big learning.
The colors were bright and funand joyful.
We included easy access toinstructions for how to put on

(30:17):
the pack right on the materialitself.
Just a ton of innovation camefrom that listening, and it made
it better for everybody, notjust those particular
communities, but for a largeroutcome.
So that's the focus we've beendoing is through inclusive
design, and it's just beenreally amazing to witness that
is really cool.

I think one of the important insights that
I'm hearing from you and justfrom our conversation is really,
from every business standpoint,there's something people can do
Like from recruiting.
It's all about how are weassessing candidates and how are
we inviting candidates thatwe're not getting naturally, in
marketing it kind of seemssimilar.
You know, how am I building myproducts?
How am I, you know, marketingmy products directly to those

(30:59):
folks?
But also, you know, from thevery beginning of the supply
chain, like am I planning forthose folks?
Have you any experience workingon like the compliance side or
the HR, like business side ofthe ENI?
And how is that maybe differentfrom, say, like the more
external facing stuff that we'vealready talked about?

Yeah, there are differences in terms of you
know the audiences and sort ofthe scope of what you're
thinking about, but to yourpoint there's there's a lot of
similarity asking the questionwho's this for and why?
And and really interrogatingthat.
I think when I worked in HR, Ithink about recruiting and some
of the practices that we wereinterrogating that had just been

(31:38):
as they were for a long time.
You know, I remember hearingsomebody on an interview panel
and they're in their recapsaying afterward yeah, you know,
I wouldn't take that person outfor a beer.
So I don't know.
You know, like these kinds ofthings that had happened just
historically, that were likelet's revisit that question, is
that actually necessary?

(31:58):
Just going for a beer with youactually need to be part of the
evaluation of this candidate.
No.
So those are some of thequestions.
But also, you know, culturally,who who gets to thrive in an
organization and asking thosequestions, for example, learning
about gatherings was.
It was an interesting one wherewe would.
We would hear from people aboutwho who kind of cultural

(32:21):
gatherings were for At onecompany.
I remember they would happen,you know, in the afternoons
after work at a bar, and sothere were a lot of people who
then felt like the exclusion One, people who didn't choose to
drink for whatever reason.
That might be felt like theycouldn't join.

(32:41):
People who were parents orcaregivers couldn't join, like
they couldn't join.
People who were parents orcaregivers couldn't join.
And there was all thesedifferent folks who these
gatherings weren't built for andthus were missing out on this
big culture building opportunityat the organization.
So kind of everything, from theway you hire people to the way
they experience the culture, tothe way their performance is
evaluated, to the way they areable to speak up in a meeting.
Every aspect of that experienceis worth looking at with that

(33:06):
lens of who is this for and why.

You know, I think one of the big concerns
I'm hearing a lot today is youknow, de&i is hiring folks who
are unqualified or isessentially somehow the
antithesis of meritocracy.
And when I think about thepractices, you know from my
perspective as a recruiter, youknow the practices that I've
employed, you know, as a resultof DE&I, really have been

(33:30):
meritocracy related making surethat the best candidate is the
one that gets considered andmaking sure I'm presenting the
best possible candidates outthere, requiring me as a
recruiter to do a lot more workin the upfront, making sure that
includes a lot of differentpeople from a lot of different
backgrounds.
How would you respond tosomeone who is concerned about
you know people's qualifications, you know if they're hired as a

(33:53):
result of maybe a company beingmore DE&I focused and you know
I framed that question probablywrongly, but that is the
perception, I think, for somepeople how would you respond to
that?

Yeah, that's a lot of the commentary I've been
seeing and receiving when weshare perspective on DEI, and I
think the clearest way I can sayit is in order for a true
meritocracy to exist, thereneeds to be DEI.
Right, you can't actuallyevaluate based on merit unless
you remove some of these otherbiases and allow for a wider

(34:27):
array of people to be evaluatedwithin that meritocracy.
We're not lending more bias tothe folks who went to the same
school as us or who answered aquestion in a similar way to us

(34:48):
or who did something that reallymirrored everything in the way
it always has been right.
There's so many opportunitiesfor bias just in the hiring
space and if we're actuallyreally focusing in on the merit
of the candidate and removingthese other elements, then it
really allows us to choose theperson who's the better

(35:09):
candidate for the role retail.

Is your path into the DE&I space, into the
DE&I marketing space?
Is that unique to you?
Do you think that other folksshould follow similar paths, or
what other paths might you?

see people taking into roles like yours.
I don't think that there's aclear cut path to DEI.
I think people enter it in alot of different ways.
I do think education there's alarge overlap with social
justice and so I think a lot offolks who have spent time in
education are naturally startingto develop those skillsets and
ways of thinking, and so there's, I think, a considerable
overlap there.

(35:52):
But there are many other waysinto it.
I think in no matter whatsector you're in, there are
questions to ask about theidentities and experiences of
humans, and being able to honethat lens and being able to ask
those questions and curiositywill be a pathway to driving
that work at an organization.
So don't think there's a clearcut path, but I think the common

(36:15):
thread is really that curiosityand understanding of people.

I fully agree.
Yeah, I think there's probablyopportunity for anyone in any
role to kind of lean into thedecisions that are being made
around them, their own decisions, to be able to be more
thoughtful and inclusive inthose.
I think when I started mycareer in recruiting I only
really saw DE&I roles as areally an HR function, and at

(36:40):
the time I think it was.
You know, you see a DE&Irecruiter or a comms manager,
that's a single contributor upinto the head of marketing at a
company.
In the time since there's beena lot of change, I think these
teams are a lot bigger.
In my mind, there's a lot moreopportunity.
Tell me a little bit about yourexperience there.
Is that the case?
Am I making the rightassumptions just from my own

(37:01):
experience?

Yeah, you are.
They're typically at a lot oforganizations.
If there was anybody, a lot oftimes it would be just
somebody's side job, that wasn'ta part of their title, but it
would usually be limited to HR.
In 2020, we saw a huge spike ofchief diversity officers and
some more DEI offices.
Unfortunately, since then, a lotof those have come away and a

(37:26):
lot of offices have been havebeen stripped of their resources
as well, and my, my gut on thatis that none of very few of
those folks were set up tosucceed.
A lot of them were reactivelyput in place so that the company
could be on the right side ofhistory and say we have a chief
diversity officer and a team,but they weren't given the
resources or the goals or thestrategic insights in order to

(37:49):
actually have a successful pathforward.
So now we're at thisinteresting place where a lot of
companies have dropped theirDEI offices, some have kept them
and we're in an interestingplace where there's now this
legislation and executive orderswhere companies are wondering
if they can keep that, if theyhave to rename the work, if they

(38:10):
have to change the work,depending on their level of
federal funding and otherimplications.
So it's another interestinginflection point and it's pretty
wild the up and downs that havehappened within the last five
years.

I think, one big question for probably young
folks thinking about gettinginto this space.
You know, if I want to go to acompany that supports DE&I,
maybe right now, at this moment,it's a little more clear than
it used to be.
In the future, there's nonecessary guarantee that it will
be easy to tell, and so howwould you describe the thought
process that you've had in thepast?
Thinking through, you know, isthis a company that's serious

(38:46):
about DE&I, and or is this acompany that is I can't remember
the exact term but like justsocial media washing, you know,
for the likes and digital hugs?

I think it's these moments of challenge where
you can really see how acompany stands Like.
If you see a company continuingto be thoughtful about their
marketing, to be thoughtfulabout the messaging they're
putting out, to be thoughtfulabout the way they show up the
products they offer, that is areally great indicator of their

(39:26):
resilience and the depth oftheir commitment to this work.
Similarly, you know, when I waslooking for companies to work, I
was looking at the variety ofteams that were related to DEI.
If it was just that one personin HR, I'd seen that before and
I know how tough that is.
What was a good indicator forme at REI was that I saw this
work happening across thebusiness in different pockets,
and so that felt like much moreintegrated work than something

(39:49):
surface level and reactive.
So those are a couple of thethings that I would look for,
but I do think this moment ofchallenge is where companies
will really show up, and I'm,you know, while I feel for folks
who are, you know, employees atTarget.
I think it's so interesting andinsightful to see the consumer

(40:10):
response and to show us reallyin an evidence-based way that
people are shopping with theirvalues, and if a company can't
stand committed to them, they'regoing to face the impacts of
that if a company can't standcommitted to them, they're going
to face the impacts of that.

Yeah, yeah, I remember in the early days in
my comms agency we talked a lotabout people shopping with their
values and putting stances outthere that are authentic for
each company and I think it'sreally important that folks look
to is the company speaking toDE&I in a way that's authentic
to their business, or are they,to your earlier point, putting a
black square on Instagram?
And is that the extent of whatthey're doing?
In terms of your journey from ayou know, I am, you know, at a

(40:53):
university seeking to get intotech, to get into inclusion work
, you know very tangibly whatwere those interviews like, what
was, what were thoseconversations like, what types
of things were you asked aboutand how did you kind of
illustrate to those folks hey, Ican be good at this, this is
something I'm born for, I'mready for.

That's a great question.
When I was leaving a higher ed,I met with a career coach who's
a friend of mine and she'samazing.
But she really helped mereshape my own narrative Because
at the time, while I lovedhigher ed, I had a lot of
challenges with it as well, andso a lot of my search at the
time was what I didn't want.
And she had a frankconversation with me where she

(41:34):
basically said, like you can'trun towards what you don't want.
What do you want, right?
And so we really put togetherkind of the what, what am I
really looking for?
And then I had to come, youknow, kind of confront some
imposter syndrome I had, havingworked in higher ed and wanting
to go to the private sector.

(41:54):
I was just like, will they wantthis skill set?
I don't know.
And so having to kind ofconfront that and then break
down that narrative and thenstart to really think about
here's what I've learned inhigher ed.
Right, I've taught thesecourses with this number of
people, so that's building alearning framework that's
applicable to a, to a privatecompany, and so starting to

(42:15):
really understand thosetranslatable skills and then
when I started doinginformational interviews to
understand what kind of company,what kind of jobs I would land
at.
It was interesting because Ioriginally thought, okay, I was
in higher ed, so I probablyshould be in learning and
development.
That feels like the mostnatural fit.
And I ended up not doing that,ended up being an account

(42:36):
executive.
But that was because thecompany and what its mission was
and what they were trying to dowas much more aligned with what
I believed and wanted to seechange in the world.
And so it was this flip of Idon't need the role to fit
exactly what I thought, but thekind of place I want to work
will have the impact I want to.
So that was what that lookedlike, and just being able to

(42:58):
practice shaping those examplesto really meet a different
audience was helpful, becausethere is a lot of insider jargon
in higher ed that you want totranslate and make accessible to
folks who who aren't living inthat world.
So, yeah, that was, that was abig part of that shift right on,
right on.

Um, I'm definitely gonna.
I was just thinking in my head.
I'm definitely going tore-record some of the ways that
I asked you some of thesequestions, just in terms of
stumbling over examples andstuff, but I promise not to
change any of the substance ofthe questions themselves.
What was I going to ask?
Next, one question I ask everyperson I chat with in the

(43:49):
podcast is you know, obviously,with the development of AI,
things are changing a lot, likeany technology, I'm imagining
you know it's going to besimilar to you know, when people
were originally building thosemotion detection soap dispensers
right, you have or in the earlydays of you know you're
engineering those, the testersfor all of the motion detecting

(44:11):
hand soap dispensers were whitepeople, and so when people with
darker skin tones went to usethose products, they had trouble
getting the soap to dispense,or the paper towel or whatever
it is.
And so with AI, you know, one ofthe things I'm constantly
thinking about and worried aboutis you know, one of the things
I'm constantly thinking aboutand worried about is you know,
are the people working on AI isthe data being that these tools
are being trained on?

(44:32):
You know?
Is that representative of you?
Know our communities here inthe States?
Is it representative of you?
Know what the needs are acrossthe globe and for people who are
going to use that?
You know?
How is it going to negativelyimpact those people who aren't
in the room in development ofthat program?
Aside from that, which I thinkis a very real technology

(44:52):
concern from a DE&I viewpoint,how might you say AI or
technology is changing the workthat you're doing?
And it could be that it's notchanging much?
I know a lot of spaces aren'tmoving very quickly into getting
into AI and deploying toolslike that, but has your work
changed dramatically from atechnology perspective over the
course of your career?
And yeah, talk me through thata little bit.

You know, I think there are some benefits to
AI in terms of efficiency andscaling some of the work, but
one of the things we talk aboutoften is the nuance that is
really hard to decipher throughtechnology and that what is
required of ai, um or, excuse me, of dei.

(45:35):
So, for example, we have aprocess at rei where we review
concerns from employees onproducts that we sell.
So any employee at RAI is ableto submit a concern about a
product that they think is outof alignment with our standards
on a number of things, includingdiversity and inclusion, and we

(45:55):
run that through a process thatwe evaluate and then triage
effectively.
So the question came up at onepoint point is there anything
that could be automated aboutthat review?
And the answer was very little,because, in addition to the
fact that we kind of need thishuman lens on every question,

(46:18):
the landscape is also changingso rapidly, so something that
may have landed as fine twoyears ago will land today and be
absolutely not fine and sothere's just this level of
nuance that's required with thiswork to be able to not only
decipher it in a standalone waybut in response to the landscape
that surrounds it that I, atthis point, wouldn't trust

(46:40):
handing that over completely totechnology.
Now are there systemsimprovements and ways of
communication and things that wecompletely to technology Now
are there systems improvementsand ways of communication and
things that we could leveragetechnology for Absolutely?
But I think in the work I dothere's still so much that
nuance piece that's required.
I know that some AI work isthere's improvement happening
around improving the quality ofAI, because I know a lot of what

(47:03):
I understood racist bias wasbaked into some of the early
days of it, and so I know peopleare working to try to dismantle
that.
But that is not my area ofexpertise at this point.

Right.
Right, it's really interestingthough, you know, I'm hearing
the same thing from other peoplein talent and HR like the
things that are not going to goaway is judgment and your
ability to interpret your humaninteraction, human need,
communication in certain ways,and I hope that leads to great
job security at the D&I space.
You know, and we talked alittle bit about growth and in

(47:37):
terms of opportunity and kind oftype of scope, in terms of
where D&I is found inorganizations and effectively
impacting change, have you seenthe space generally grow Like
are you finding yourself withmore peers generally?
Or you know, obviously we're ina place now where some of these
groups are literally beingfired, but how would you
describe the overall space inthe last you know, nine, 10

(47:59):
years in growth?

Yeah, I mean huge growth, then a huge decline
, and I think now we're seeing.
What's interesting about whatwe're seeing now is, I think,
the organizations that trulydeeply had a commitment and
didn't just reactively join uptwo years, four years ago, those
are the companies where we'llsee the work get more integrated

(48:23):
.
So the work I do in inclusivedesign I'm starting to see a lot
more at different companies andI'm seeing some brands think
about D&I from a brandperspective and not purely from
an HR employee relationsperspective.
So there is a bit more, I'd say, depth in the companies or
organizations that are committedand at the same time there are

(48:45):
companies that are leaving itbehind too, and I think the
ripple effects of that will bechallenging and we'll continue
to see those ramifications overthe next 10 plus years.
But it's certainly interesting.

Yeah, if I had to take a guess, I would
assume that this moment in timewill pass and I would assume
that companies who are committedwill continue to stay committed
three, four, five years fromnow and beyond, and companies
that were quick to withdraw willlikely regret it and start to
reverse those decisions.
Folks that you know, that mightmean great opportunity.

(49:24):
It might also mean, you know,some of those companies who
decide to go back and rebuildtheir D&I teams still might not
have, you know, all theleadership at the top that will
push things forward.
But you know, I'm wondering ifyou think the same.
You know, do you think thatthat's an accurate prediction?
Do you have your own opinion onwhat you think will happen?

Yeah, I think that the work will inevitably
continue.
What we say at the CourageCollective is the world is
evolving.
The way you work should, too.
Right.
That's just what's the truth.
Our demographics of our worldand our country are rapidly
changing.
The needs of people arechanging.
We talked about the way peoplebuy and consume.

(50:02):
Those things are changing andas the generations continue to
evolve, that will only amplifythat change.
And so organizations, from aemployee perspective, need to be
able to respond and meet theneeds of their people.
Brands need to be able torespond to meet the needs of
their consumers, and whether ornot you want to call it DEI or

(50:24):
invest in that learning, that'sgoing to continue to happen.
And so who will remain relevant, both from an employer
standpoint and from a brandstandpoint, will be the question
.

Yeah, right on.
I know we only have a coupleminutes left, so I want to talk
a little bit about the interviewprocess.
I'm going to skip that a littlebit about, like the we already
talked about questions or theinterview process.
I'm going to skip that a littlebit.
I think I'll just ask in termsof advice for folks looking to
get into your field you know youshared a little bit about or

(50:57):
the organization your consultingorganization you're part of now
.

Yes, the Courage Collective.

Courage Collective, yeah, and so, with
the Courage Collective and yourtime at REI and working in tech,
you know how would you describethe problems that you deal with
on a day-to-day basis?
I like to describe my job.
As you know, I'm literallysitting on the phone all day
talking to random strangersuntil one of them, you know, I
find you know the experience I'mlooking for, and so the
problems I'm dealing with today,every day, are my own just

(51:25):
endurance in phone calls and myability to pay attention for 30
minute increments.
But how would you describe?

the problems you're facing day to day in your
roles?
That's a good question.
I think I would say thatsystems, places, experiences
were built with only a few inmind, and my every day is trying
to change that.
There is a quote that I alwayscome back to, which is from Dr
Crystal Jones, and she saysthere's a big difference between

(51:54):
the ideas all are welcome here,and this was created with you
in mind and many places, bothfrom, like, an HR recruiting
standpoint and also from a brandstandpoint, have an all are
welcome sort of mentality, whereit's like come on, come on, but
in order to actually feel likeyou belong, you have to shed
parts of yourself or changeparts of yourself and assimilate

(52:16):
in many ways, but this wascreated with you in mind.
Alternative is something muchmore dynamic and responsive to
the needs of humans, andparticularly the needs of humans
, and particularly the needs ofhumans that have been often
erased.
So that's that's where I spenda lot of my time and energy.

How would you describe, like tactically,
what that looks like?
Are you, for example, beingasked to look through you know,
pages of process, or you knoweven product design drawings and
then give feedback directly?
You know, are you sitting inmeetings where you kind of have
multiple different pitches kindof thrown at you?
What does that more tacticallylook like day to day, maybe in
one of your roles or one of yourconsulting engagements?

Sure, let's see .
There's so many examples.
One would be with.
I work closely with ourmarketing organization at REI,
and if we are coming up with acampaign, we're bringing in
perspectives of the community toensure that we're meeting the
moment.
If we're talking about hikingor camping or running, what are
the various stories that we canpull to ensure that it feels

(53:14):
more meaningful and relevant tomore people?
I also run a body of work at REI, that is I mentioned earlier
our product impact standards.
We have a set of standards thatall of the 1,000 plus brands
that we sell have to adhere toin order to continue to be
assorted at the co-op, and we'redeveloping those standards in

(53:36):
community with thosemarginalized groups.
So an example of that that is atactical project I'm working on
is we added a standard aroundinclusive headwear.
Tactical project I'm working onis we added a standard around
inclusive headwear.
So many hats, scarves andespecially helmets are not
designed with coarse or texturedor high volume hair in mind,

(54:03):
and so we heard often from someof our partners, like
organizations like Black GirlsDo Bike excuse me that they
can't wear helmets safelybecause of their hair and that
the helmet was never designed toprotect them.
And so we've now added astandard that all brands have to
include more hair types intheir design process in order to
be assorted at REI, and that'san industry level change that
we're working through day to day.

Wow, so you're setting up meetings to
kind of chat with folks, shareinformation on those changes to
standards and kind of answeringtheir questions, to kind of help
them meet.
That, I'm assuming, is thatright?

Yeah, yeah, we're trying to support brands
along the way and continuing todevelop those standards to meet
the moment and the needs of morepeople of more people Right on,
right on.

If you were sitting in front of a you know,
high school student going intocollege for the first time,
thinking about how they can getinto this work and we talked a
little bit about the opportunitybeing in pretty much everywhere
how would you really tell them,you know, to start talking
about this, to start thinkingabout this, to start studying
this.
You know where should theyspend their time most if they
want to get into this space or,you know, contribute to DE&I in

(55:08):
any space they end up in.
Where would the great, wherewould you say they should start?

I should say I should ask, I think just pay
attention to the moments andinteractions and experiences
that get you fired up.
A lot of that for me wasoutside of the classroom.
A lot of that was throughhearing about the experiences
people had where they felterased or unseen, and that's how

(55:35):
I developed my own personalmission statement.
That's something I require of alot of people or encourage is
to develop your own missionstatement.
That's separate from work,that's separate from your career
trajectory.
That's just about what thechange you want to make in the
world, and mine is to elevatethe voices of the unheard, and
that's something I want to liveout, no matter what I do and

(55:57):
when I feel that fire.
That's where I see some energyabout pursuing that in my own
career.

Yeah, when I was in college, I reached out
to a mentor of mine His name'sJohn shout out John and I was
kind of figuring out like, whatdo I want to do?
Where do I go?
I have this internship offeringto do comms, and his biggest
advice he gave me at that pointwas just start talking about
what you want to do and peoplethat are like-minded, people who

(56:26):
want the same things as you.
They'll find you and you'llfind them.
Just start talking aboutgetting your voice out there and
listening to other voices thatyou're attracted to, and so I
completely agree and think that,whether it's reaching out to
Lululemon or finding other waysto amplify your own voice in the
areas that interest you,there's a lot of opportunity out
there.
So I'd encourage folks to startthat.

(56:48):
My last question before I askmy real last question is are
there any other aspects of DEIprogramming or your job that we
didn't talk about that you wouldwant to share with people?

I think we covered quite a range.
I think the biggest myth aboutDEI is that it's about getting
people jobs or things, basicallyjust because of their
identities, and that's it.
And then there's this whole themyth that we talked about
earlier to this work and that itcan show up across

(57:28):
organizations and communities ina number of different ways and
that it has to evolve over time,like any other line of work is,
is what I would underline andencourage people to explore
awesome, awesome.

And, as always, my last question how
would you describe how your jobhas changed you?

that's a good question.
How has my job changed me?
I think my job has encouragedme to use my voice in a number
of different rooms andexperiences.
I was somebody who had todevelop my voice over my years

(58:04):
of life.
I was a very shy child andearly adolescent and then
learned that that fire I spokeof earlier within me needed to
be brought into a number ofrooms, and the more I've used my
voice, I think it has givenothers permission to do the same
, and I've heard that repeatedlythroughout my career, and so

(58:27):
I've learned when you feel likethere's something that needs to
be said or a voice that needs tobe heard, use the opportunity
to do so.
Thank you.

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Nani Vishwanath - Sr. Strategist, Inclusive Design

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Nani Vishwanath - Sr. Strategist, Inclusive Design