June 21, 2023 • 39 mins
What does it take to create the perfect beer? Join us as we share a cold one with Jim Koch, founder of the Boston Beer Company and the brains behind the iconic Samuel Adams Boston Lager. In this heart-to-heart, Jim takes us through his 40-year pursuit of brewing excellence, the innovations and changes that have shaped the flagship beer, and a shared tasting of the new, brighter Boston Lager.
But there's more to the Boston Beer Company than just great beer. Jim also sheds light on their hop sharing program, which has been a lifeline for hundreds of craft breweries during a worldwide hop shortage. Furthermore, we delve into their philanthropic endeavor, the Brewing the American Dream program, which has provided microloans and business counseling to thousands of small businesses across the United States.
As we sip our way through this conversation, Jim shares invaluable business lessons he's learned along the way, including his String Theory and its application to small businesses and aspiring brewers. We also discuss the current state of the craft brewing industry and the role that the Boston Beer Company has played in its growth and maturation. So grab yourself a new, brighter Sam Adams Boston Lager, and let's raise a toast to the incredible journey of Jim Koch!
Cheers!
https://www.samueladams.com/
https://www.brewingtheamericandream.com/
https://beerandbrewing.com/dictionary/kTgG7blfwp/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Scott (00:00):
Jim Cook is the founder of the Boston Beer Company,
brewer of Sam Adams, he foundedthe company in 1984 when he
brewed the first batch of BostonLager in his kitchen, a recipe
belonging to his great-greatgrandfather that he founded as
father's attic back in the early1980s.
In spite of the challenge,conventional thinking about beer
, jim brought the recipe to lifewith the hope that drinkers
would appreciate his complex,full-flavored beers and started
(00:20):
sampling that beer in Boston.
He named the flagship brewSamuel Adams Boston Lager in
recognition of one of ournation's founding fathers, a
revolutionary man of independentand pioneering spirit.
In 2016, jim wrote his firstbook Quench Your Own Thirst
Business Lessons Learned Over aBeer or Two, a national
bestseller and named 2016 bestbook of the year by Inc,
business Insider, forbes andAmazon.
Today, sam Adams is one of themost awarded brewers and remains
(00:42):
focused on crafting the highestquality beers through
innovation and experimentationin the relentless pursuit of
better beer.
Samuel Adams Boston Lager hasled the American craft beer
revolution for more than 40years, bringing full-flavored
beer to the American beerlandscape.
Jim Cook, welcome to CarneySaves the World.
Jim Koch (00:58):
Well, it's an honor to be here.
I'm going to try to help yousave the world, one beer at a
time.
Scott (01:04):
That's all we can ask.
That's all we can ask.
How are you, my friend?
I'm great.
How are you Great?
Where are you?
I'm in Wilmington, northCarolina, now, okay.
Jim Koch (01:14):
Not a bad place to be.
Yeah, actually, i once lookedat a map a long time ago and
said where is it on the eastcoast that doesn't have bad
weather?
And you end up on coastal NorthCarolina, new Bern, wilmington.
Scott (01:32):
Right down down in Wilmington.
We moved six years ago when wehad my daughter, a mid-family,
down here, and it was beforeCOVID, so there's no working
from home Wow.
Jim Koch (01:41):
You're ahead of the curve, as usual, yeah, right.
Scott (01:55):
One of the things I wanted to do today is taste new
lager with you.
I'm really excited to do it.
Good Making sure I got somenice fresh lager from the store.
We're good to go.
Jim Koch (02:03):
Perfect, hold mine off of the Kagerator.
Scott (02:05):
Nice, when the new Boston lager came out, i said, well, i
tasted every single bear withJim Cook during orientation 25
years ago.
I need to try this one with himtoday, so I'm psyched.
Jim Koch (02:17):
Me too.
I got to get the carny seal ofapproval before we can really
roll the barrels.
Scott (02:24):
I don't think you'll have a problem with it, but let's
give it a shot.
So what was the genesis ofmaking this newer, brighter
Boston lager?
Jim Koch (02:31):
Well, it's really started at the very beginning.
You know I'm one of thosebelievers that you can always
improve things, and you know Istarted with this great recipe.
It got picked as the best beerin America four years running
And everybody says it's a greatbeer.
But I thought, well, there'sstill things you can do.
(02:54):
And, along with fellowco-worker who you know well,
david Grinnell, we agreed thatthere was such a thing as a
perfect Boston lager.
We just hadn't made it yet.
So over the 39 years since Ifirst brewed it, we've made lots
of little tweaks and changes toit.
(03:15):
I mean stuff that's well belowthe radar screen of even, you
know, beer geeks.
Stuff like changing the harvesttiming of the hops that come
from Bavaria They were beingharvested too early for the last
300 years And we realized that,and you know.
(03:39):
But harvest them later got morearoma, better flavor.
Things like making sure therewas enough copper piping in the
brew kettles to get copper ionsinto the beer, which is a yeast
nutrient.
So having a custom malt thatgave us a smoother Boston lager.
(04:01):
I could go on, but we've madeprobably a dozen little tweaks
over the years, all in search ofthe perfect Boston lager, and
the latest one.
We decided well, let's just,we're going to make this latest
change Again.
It's not a huge revolutionarychange in the flavor, it's a
(04:25):
minor tweak but it's enough tobe tasteable And it's a
traditional German brewingprocess that meets the
Reinhardt'skibote, the Germanbeer purity law, and it's called
biological acidification And Iwon't go into all of it.
But it replaces some watertreatment that brings, you know,
(04:46):
basically, limes, that bringscalcium into the beer, which
makes for a different, easier,louder ring, and it drops some
things out of the beer that youdon't want in there.
We replaced that withbiological acidification, which
is a parallel fermentation thatcreates, you know, lactic acid,
(05:10):
which is a very soft acid whichyou'd get in like, you know,
yogurt, for example, or milk,and that the end of the day, all
that geeky stuff makes abrighter, cleaner tasting Boston
Lager.
There were just like a few kindof rough spots in the taste that
(05:30):
it sanded down.
You know, david Grinnell, ourhead brewer for 35 years, my
partner in all of this is awoodworker.
In its spare time He uses thatanalogy.
You make a piece of furniture,but you can always make it a
little smoother.
You know, you get a smaller andsmaller grid of sandpaper you
(05:52):
get a finer steel.
You can always make it a littlesmoother, and that's what we
did.
Smoother and brighter BostonLager.
So here's to the perfect BostonLager, which we have not yet
made, but, god willing, i willlive to see it.
Cheers, cheers, cheers.
Does it get the carny seal ofapproval?
(06:13):
Clean, bright, smooth.
Scott (06:15):
Yeah, I think you got a winner here.
I think you got a winner here.
You guys are going with thisone.
Jim Koch (06:20):
All right, the barrels are rolling, the trucks are on
their way.
Scott (06:24):
Send it out.
Jim Koch (06:26):
Send it out.
Scott (06:26):
Yes, this is fantastic, jim.
I'm really a.
Jim Koch (06:30):
Well, it's nothing like drinking a Boston lager in
the morning with an old friend.
Scott (06:35):
I know absolutely.
I had to take the day out ofwork to do this.
Ah, me too.
We're just playing hooky today.
We're just playing hooky andhanging out.
Jim Koch (06:43):
Well, I play hooky every day.
Scott (06:47):
I see you got a little gray now So I haven't seen you
in like six years.
I like it.
Jim Koch (06:51):
Yeah, good, it makes me distinguish.
Scott (06:54):
Like me, you're like me?
Jim Koch (06:55):
Yeah well, that's exactly right.
You've always been my rolemodel.
Scott (07:02):
I've been everybody's gray role model.
I've been gray since I was like17.
Jim Koch (07:05):
Well, you know it's funny.
You got a little whack in themustache.
unless you're thinking that, No, that's the only.
Scott (07:10):
That's the reason why I grow the beard, just so I could
show off the mustache.
Jim Koch (07:14):
Nice, nice.
Scott (07:15):
When I interviewed the job at the Boss Beer Company, i
remember I was like I've got todarken up my hair.
I got to look professional andyounger And I remember doing
some Just for Men and then Ididn't realize I left a little
on my ear.
My entire ear, the top of myear, turns jet black And I had
to sit.
Everybody I interviewed with Ihad to sit with that ear to the
(07:35):
door so nobody could see me andthink I was like what the heck's
going on with this guy?
He's got jet black ear hair.
That was kind of weird.
Jim Koch (07:42):
Well, we thought it was gangrene.
Scott (07:44):
Probably was Just cut it off and start over.
One of the coolest things thatI experienced while working with
you and working at the BostonBeer Company over for so many
years was the hop sharingprogram.
Could you talk a little bitabout that?
I mean, you saved so manycompanies, you saved so many
breweries.
You saved had to save theindustry to some extent.
(08:05):
Could you talk about that alittle bit?
Jim Koch (08:07):
Sure The hop sharing program happened.
It was a point where there wasa worldwide shortage of hops.
It was one of those calamitiesthat happens every whatever 50
years where you had a record badhop crop in Germany and in the
(08:28):
United States, And it was at atime when demand for hops was
taking off.
Ipas, which are very hopintensive, became the principal
style of craft beer And peoplewere starting to put more hops
in their beers and worldwideinventories were at very low
levels.
And along comes the doublecalamity of too bad hop years in
(08:56):
the principal growing areas.
So there were breweries thatjust could not get hops.
There were not enough hops togo around, And we've been doing
this for quite a long time.
My family's been brewing beerfor 170 years, something like
(09:17):
that.
You learn a few things, whichis it's a good idea to have as
much as a full year of hops inyour inventory, So if there's a
really bad hop year, you canstill make your beer without
making any compromises.
So we had more than enough hopsfor ourselves And we were
(09:43):
willing to take a chance that wewere not going to have another
really catastrophic hop year Andwe could release some of the
hops that we had in inventoryAnd we also had kind of first
dibs on hops because we asopposed to most of the craft
(10:04):
brewers, we actually werecontracting with the farmers.
So we were the first customerwhose needs got met And a lot of
craft brewers had not beenthrough lean years So they
assumed there were always goingto be hops to be purchased.
So they were on the spot market.
So we got most of our contractneeds and we delved into our
(10:31):
inventory and offered them tocraft brewers who were not able
to get hops.
And we kind of did it on thehonor system.
We asked brewers only to submitrequests for what they really
needed And we sold them at ourprice, which was about five
(10:51):
bucks a pound, when on the spotmarket they were going for 20 or
25 bucks.
So there was a real temptationfor our fellow craft brewers to
buy them and then sell them at abig profit.
And yeah said it was a reallygreat example of the craft
brewing community, because Idon't think anybody did.
(11:13):
People just asked for what theyneed and we were able to help
hundreds and hundreds of verysmall brewers continue to make
their great beers continue to,you know, put the same amount of
hops in them, not compromisethe quality, and it helped them
stay in business as well thatwas awesome.
Scott (11:31):
I remember that and you know to go back because we
didn't do this originally and Iapologize, but anybody that's
had two beers in their lifemostly would know who you are.
But for those folks that maynot know who you are, could you
just kind of give your backstoryon your, on your family history
and a little bit more in detailabout the Boston Beer Company's
founding?
Jim Koch (11:50):
Sure, i have to include, you know, the the peak
experience of meeting ScottCarney 25 years ago.
I appreciate that that comesfirst.
Yeah, there are many lesserexperiences.
I mean my background, prettyquick, is, you know, i'm six
oldest son in a row and myfamily to be a brewer.
I didn't start my career as abrewer.
(12:13):
I was a manufacturingconsultant and then when I was,
like I don't know, 33, 34, irealized I didn't want to do
that job so I quit.
I thought about what I wantedto do and I kept coming back to
brewing beer.
And this was back in the early80s when there was no craft
brewing industry there, the termhadn't even been invented.
(12:37):
There were a couple, a handfulof like crazy scat at all over
the country that were basicallyscaled up home brewers who, you
know, had this crazy idea thatyou could make a living making
high quality American beer on asmall scale, competing with
imports, you know, hoping thatsomebody would buy your beer.
(13:00):
And there's no real role modelsfor success of those early
craft brewers.
They're pretty much all gone.
None of them really made it,other than Sam Adams and Sierra
Nevada.
So it was not, you know, thehighway to great riches, but it
to me it was, you know,something that I thought was
(13:24):
just this would be cool if Icould actually make a living
making the kind of beer that myfamily has made for a century
plus.
At that point and I started inmy kitchen I got a recipe from
my dad that had come from mygreat, great grandfather's
brewery, so I knew this was agreat beer it was.
(13:45):
You could tell by the recipe itwas big, flavorful, rich, very,
you know, using the bestingredients two roast summer
barley and sort of heirloomBavarian hops.
And you know I went from bar tobar selling it because I
couldn't even get a distributor,and you know it got picked as
(14:08):
the best beer in America.
The company was two people whenthat happened.
So that was kind of crazy thatthe best beer in America was
made by this guy you never heardof and his partner, a woman
named Rhonda, and we, you know,we sold it bar to bar and it got
bigger and then it got bigger,and then it got bigger and it
(14:31):
just kept getting bigger.
And here we are and then wehired Scott Carney and the guy
was the limit.
I was around for some prettydecent growth.
Scott (14:40):
You were a lot of growth.
Yeah, i was there for all thebrand's extensions and you know
twisted tea and angry orchardand truly all under the umbrella
of the Boston beer companyactually funny.
So my wife was a huge seltzerfan, just in general, and the
summer that truly came out.
She was pregnant with mydaughter and she was so mad she
(15:02):
couldn't have any to wait untilmy daughter was born.
Jim Koch (15:04):
And then all right, we kept making it.
We, we were patiently waitingfor your wife to come in and
give us that push that we needed.
Scott (15:15):
I actually have this funny story.
I told it on one of the otherepisodes of of Cardi saves the
world when I was saving theworld.
So right before we moved toWilmington, my wife had come to
the office and she brought mydog.
She was in the foyer and youwould come right around the
corner and I said, hey, jim,how's it going?
I said you remember my wife,katie?
and you said hi, katie, andthen you looked at my dog and my
dog is a pugilier.
She's the strangest looking dogon the planet.
(15:36):
And you looked at her and youwere like what are her breeds?
and I said, all right, i mean,she's a half pug, half Cavalier
King Charles Spaniel.
You said oh wow.
And you looked at her and youshe said out loud what was the
shelf life on those breeds?
Jim Koch (15:48):
Cavalier King Charles Spaniel's, as you know.
You know, they do kind of havea poll date yes, yes, they do,
yes, they do.
Scott (15:59):
It was funny.
So I had kind of just recentlylooked that up and I was like,
oh, it's about eight years onboth, and I was like, oh, it's
like eight, eight years orsomething like that.
Then you said, well, how old isshe?
and I said, well, she's seven,you're, so she's got some time.
Well, nice to see you, katie.
And you walked away and my wifeturned to me and said did Jim
cook?
just ask when our dog is goingto die?
and I was like, yeah, i thinkthat.
I think that was what he said.
Jim Koch (16:21):
I was trying to soften the blow for you.
Scott (16:23):
I'm proud to report she is still kicking awesome yeah 14
.
Jim Koch (16:28):
Now you know those life expectancy tables don't
include owners like you thatgive beer to your dog.
Scott (16:35):
Just keep giving her the beer man, we would recycle the
bottles and so we'd have youknow the cases, and then we'd
put the bottles just in the casewhen they're done, and we'd
catch her licking the tops ofthe bottles my wife's caught me
doing the same thing.
Jim Koch (16:46):
Don't worry about it, that's awesome.
Scott (16:49):
I have a question for you .
This is a very serious question.
One of my favorite beers on theplanet not just Sam Adams'
beers one of my favorite beerson the planet was Sam Adams'
Whitewater IPA.
I absolutely love that beer AndNick Goslin and I go back and
forth trolling each other on theSam Adams Facebook page and
thinking he likes the originalWhite Ale And I told him I was
going to ask you if we couldbring that back.
(17:09):
You could just say yes andwe'll make it look like it's
coming back.
Jim Koch (17:14):
Well, i mean, we do bring a lot of them back, but
they're in the tap rooms, likeat a brewery in Boston and one
in Ohio.
I love that beer too.
That was really I mean, thatwas a leader in sort of
branching the IPA style out,because it was kind of getting
(17:35):
generic almost Everybody'smaking the same type of IPA.
So we kept trying to, you know,to add to the style with a
white IPA.
If you remember, we had likelatitude 48 and we've had
different kinds of IPAs over theyears.
Scott (17:54):
You can't see my shirt, but I actually wore my Rebel IPA
.
Oh, I saw you shirt It saidRebel IPA.
Yeah.
Jim Koch (17:59):
Yeah, you remember Rebel.
We're working on a new one too.
Oh good, like a simplified, youknow, juicy IPA.
So you know, we're alwaysmaking new beers.
I get bored, if you remember.
I have like the attention spanof a gerbil.
So what'd we say?
What were we talking about?
Scott (18:19):
Yeah, something shiny, what?
So?
I definitely wanted to talkabout Bring the American Dream
program that you started, whichhas helped so many people and so
many businesses get off theground.
Could you tell us, you know,what was the reason for the
start of that one?
Jim Koch (18:32):
Yeah, that's got its own story.
And the Bring American Dreamprogram is primary philanthropic
activity.
What it is is supportingstartups and small businesses in
the food and beverage spacethrough micro loans and coaching
(18:57):
and counseling, and we startedit, i think, in 2008.
We've supported it for 15 yearsJen Glanville, who, you know,
is running it now And in those15 years we've now reached $100
(19:18):
million in loans to smallbusinesses all across the United
States And we've donecounseling and coaching And, if
you remember, it was kind ofspeed dating type stuff for
10,000 small businesses in foodand beverage.
(19:42):
So it's something that is ourway of giving back in a
meaningful fashion.
Because what I remember fromwhen I started, there were two
things that I wish I'd been ableto have available to me.
One was loan money, becausenobody would lend me money to do
(20:06):
this stupid thing to start abrewery when nobody had started
a brewery for years.
And the other was like justnuts and bolts, business advice
Because, you know, i mean I had.
You'd think I had theeducational background to start
a business.
I had a MBA, i had a JD, i hadsix and a half years of
(20:28):
management consulting.
You thought I had no business.
Well, i sort of knew it at thehigh level, but as a small
business person, it's all nutsand bolts.
It's just all these things thatyou're doing that you've never
done before, You know, and ifyou screw them up, it's really
damaging.
So I didn't know.
(20:49):
I didn't negotiate a real estatelease.
I didn't know how to getpublicity for the company.
I didn't know how to design alabel.
I didn't know how to even paypeople.
I mean, how do you withhold andsocial security and
unemployment, all this?
(21:09):
you know bureaucracy.
You got to just to pay oneperson.
I didn't know any of that stuffAnd if you've done it before,
it's all you know.
It's all pretty simple.
So we wanted to give startupcompanies and small businesses
trying to expand to the nextlevel, you know access to good
(21:30):
nuts and bolts business advice,to small business loans, and I'm
happy to say that the repaymentrate on our loans is like 98%,
which is way above what banksget you know when they're, and
banks don't make risky loanslike we do.
So we've helped, you know,thousands and thousands of small
(21:54):
business entrepreneurs allaround the country.
Yeah, that's awesome.
Basically, food and beveragewhich is a broad category, but
it's the category that you know.
We know because we're not inbiotech, we're not in fintech,
we're not in any kind of tech.
Otherwise I would have beenable to get into your
(22:14):
application and we could haverecorded it on your studio
program.
Scott (22:19):
It's been amazing.
Jim Koch (22:20):
Yeah, but we made this work.
So we're not, you know, supersophisticated, but we know how
to make things that taste good.
We know, you know, what mattersin food and beverage.
We know how to, you know, get aproduct to market.
We know how to maintain quality.
So we have those things leftthat can help lots of small
(22:45):
businesses, because there's alot of entrepreneurs in the food
and beverage space.
Scott (22:49):
Yeah, i love the, and this was your mantra and it was
something that you said everynational meeting.
You said it whenever you could,but you're, you know,
restlessly challenging thestatus quo.
We appreciated that fact and itreally made us, you know,
strive for more in our jobs andeven in our, you know, in
personal life.
I mean, i have interviewed afew people that I'm friends with
(23:10):
that have done some crazythings, and one of them is Roy
Milner.
He was two episodes ago.
He was a sales rep fromTennessee before her boss to
beer and he Basically they kindof did this very similar thing
to you.
It was, you know, you were kindof an inspiration.
He went out and he owns Breweryout in Tennessee now and
they're making amazing beers,awesome, that's great.
Jim Koch (23:30):
Yeah, there's been a lot of people who left Boston
beer, you know, and startedbreweries, and I'm very proud of
them.
They've all made really greatbeers.
Scott (23:40):
Remember Grant Wood.
Jim Koch (23:42):
Yeah, yeah, grant went down to Texas and started.
Revolver Made you know bloodand honey, blood orange and
honey beer.
It was delicious.
Scott (23:52):
Yeah, It was fantastic, I had it.
It was phenomenal.
How does it feel to be likethat inspiration, or that level
of inspiring to those people youknow, knowing that they
listened to your message.
at some point something clickedand they went out and did it.
Jim Koch (24:05):
Well, you know, in my mind they would have done it
anyway.
I mean, we've had let's face it, we've had some really, really
talented people at Boston BeerCompany And I've been privileged
to work with them, yourselfincluded.
I mean, who would have thoughtthat this crazy kid with a black
ear would be doing podcasts andbeing really professional about
(24:29):
it?
So you know, we just had really, really talented people.
You know, you got a lot oftalents, man, so we've got a lot
of people like Scott Carney.
I wish my wife knew that.
No, I'm just kidding, Don'tworry my wife still thinks I'm a
loser too.
That's why they marry us,you'll never, you know, reach
(24:50):
their standards.
It's just way too high.
Scott (24:53):
Bull post booths constantly.
Jim Koch (24:54):
Yeah, exactly, but we can at least have a beer in the
morning.
Scott (24:58):
Yeah right, the book is just was a huge hit And another
piece of inspiration for a lotof people, and one of the things
that you mentioned in the bookthat you also mentioned in all
of our national meetings wasyour string theory version.
Could you talk about that,because I think that's such a
cool concept And I think forpeople who have never gotten the
chance to listen in order toread about it, this chance to
(25:19):
hear it would be really cool.
Jim Koch (25:20):
Sure, Sure, the book is called Quench Your Own Thirst
.
Business lessons learned over abeer or two.
The chapter on the stringtheory is something that I
learned when I was an outweighbound instructor, and the string
was actually technically alpinecord.
But I learned that if you gaveyour group plenty of string at
(25:45):
the beginning, they ended upwith not enough at the end.
So I tried giving them notenough at the beginning And, lo
and behold, they ended up withplenty at the end And the string
was stuff you used to like lashthings on your pack and set up
your tarps and tie thingstogether, and if people had too
(26:10):
much of it, they wasted it Andthey'd leave scraps on trees.
They'd forget it.
They never learned to use itefficiently.
If they had too little, theyactually would conserve it and
learn to use it reallyefficiently.
So that's an important lessonfor a small business, because
(26:32):
you never have enough resourcesAnd if you apply this string
theory, force yourself to useeverything very efficiently,
don't waste anything, and if youdo that, you're generally gonna
have enough.
I mean, it's kind of arepackaging of necessity as the
(26:54):
mother of invention If peopleneed to stretch the resources,
which is constantly the case ina small business.
Even today, as successful asBoston Beer Company has been, we
still compete against peoplewho are 10 times our size, and
if we're not more efficient,they'll kill us.
(27:15):
So we keep this string theoryin the front of our minds And
you may not think you've gotenough, but you actually do if
you use it right.
Scott (27:24):
Yeah, that's great.
You mentioned that.
The business is just.
It's changing.
It's constantly evolving.
Where do you see the I mean thepoor little breweries getting
bought up by the big guys?
Where do you see the businessin in the next five or 10 years
going?
Jim Koch (27:37):
Well, kraft Beer has basically done what we all hoped
and prayed that it mightsomeday do and become.
My vision, when things startedgoing and I realized that this
was a bigger idea than I thoughtwas that someday America would
(28:00):
make the best beer in the world,would teach the rest of the
world how to innovate and makegreat beer, and we would have a
significant cultural impact asKraft Brewers and be a stable
and mature industry.
And that was 35 years ago andit happened.
(28:23):
Kraft beer is like 10 or 15% ofthe beer in the United States.
There's 10,000 Kraft BrewersAnd the rest of the world looks
to the small independent brewerslike Sam Adams to teach them
how to innovate and make greatbeer.
(28:44):
Our prayers have been answeredAnd it's now a mature industry.
I mean, it was never gonna growand be 100% of beer in the
United States, but it's 10 or15% of a big market And there's
incredible diversity of beers.
(29:07):
America today is the best placein history to be a beer drinker
.
So we've accomplished that.
It's now a mature industry.
So you can't just open abrewery and think if you brew it
, they will come.
You gotta have somethingspecial, something good, and
(29:32):
it's not.
I mean, this industry was neverone that promised great wealth.
This was not, even though somepeople thought, oh, i'll start a
craft brewery, i'll get rich.
Odds were always very, verytiny that that would happen.
And now it's a mature industryand people who don't have a
(29:55):
little good luck and a reallygood beer and the right people
involved with them.
There's people coming into thebusiness and people going out of
the business but it's here tostay.
Scott (30:06):
Yeah, we see, wilminton is a huge, huge craft beer
market.
I mean, we've got I could evenmaybe 15 brews in and around the
county that I'm in And it'sinteresting because you'll see
these little brews pop up.
But then you'll see a littlebrewery pop up with a gigantic
building And it just seems likeI mean, i don't know their
business model, it just seemslike they may be overshooting a
(30:27):
bit with the gigantic tap roomand the four garage doors that
lead out to the brew house AndI'm like, yeah, Well, you
remember where we started, Youknow, in that rundown space in a
bad neighborhood of Boston Ihad a thousand square feet and
my rent was a dollar a year.
Jim Koch (30:48):
So my monthly rent check was like eighty eight
dollars.
Scott (30:53):
That's amazing.
We haven't been back home, butI've seen online all the
additions and you know, you knowchanges and upgrades that the
brewery's gone through.
It looks beautiful Yeah.
Jim Koch (31:03):
Well, we're still doing it, We're still growing in
that crazy site.
Scott (31:08):
I remember that there used to be a crust from the
brewery.
It was the other, one of theother big buildings in the
complex where all the recordswere kept And myself and Ty
Rickman had to go get somerecords one day.
We it was like catacombs.
Yeah, these records were stored.
Yeah, we're going in herebecause the complex was so old
(31:28):
and Yeah, It's 150 years old nowIt's.
Jim Koch (31:32):
you know it's one of the few places in the United
States that's never beenanything but a brewery since the
1860s.
So yeah, it's like catacombs.
I hope you didn't trip over anyskeletons.
Scott (31:44):
We randomly heard a dog barking where like that can't be
possible.
We're pretty sure it was a dogghost, so it took off.
Here's one of my favoritequotes from the book.
It's the chapter about welcomethe dude with the bold painted
toenails And you say final.
Final quote here is rememberthat most of us came into the
(32:05):
world as screaming messy blobsof bad plumbing.
But with a little love andattention and faith in our
future, we managed to grow it tofully functioning, successful
human beings.
Very well put, yeah.
Jim Koch (32:17):
Miracle of miracles.
Scott (32:18):
Yeah, Like bad plumbing.
Oh right, Well you had a kid.
Jim Koch (32:23):
you know what it's like, I mean.
Scott (32:25):
Oh, i, absolutely, absolutely So.
Your kids, your kids, were kids, kids.
They were my daughter's age.
When you're two youngestdaughters, when, when I first
started, all the kids grown upnow.
Jim Koch (32:36):
Well, i mean, they're older, that's for sure.
You're their father, so I meanthey are fully functioning,
successful human beings.
So, yes, i mean, yeah, i havefour children, as you know, and
yeah, they're, they're all outon their own.
Actually, my the youngest onejust graduated from college last
(33:00):
year.
Scott (33:00):
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Jim Koch (33:03):
So her graduation was my 50th reunion.
Scott (33:06):
Oh wow, that's good Yeah, when I was when I was
graduating.
Jim Koch (33:11):
If somebody said, yeah , and your 50th reunion, you're
going to be watching yourdaughter graduate.
I don't like shooting.
Scott (33:17):
They're right.
Jim Koch (33:20):
They're all in great in a great situation.
I'm real very lucky thatthey're all pretty much grownups
and they've navigated, you know, childhood and young adulthood,
and they're functioning justlike you and me man.
Scott (33:34):
Well, i mean me functioning is.
We'll see.
Jim Koch (33:38):
It doesn't have to be conventional.
It can just be what a humanbeing is, which kind of you know
might be a screaming messy blobof bad neuroses, but we're
making it Wait a minute.
Scott (33:52):
Who told you that?
No, I'm just kidding.
I've got, so I'm 49.
I've got a six year old andit's, I feel you.
I know what you're watching,Yeah a blessing.
Jim Koch (34:02):
I'm sorry.
Scott (34:03):
It's amazing.
But there are times where it'sjust I can't even keep up with
her.
But she's crazy.
That's a good thing.
Jim Koch (34:10):
She's amazing and life changing Yeah.
Well, like I said, my last onejust graduated.
I miss them.
You know, i see people with,like you know, three or four,
you know young kids and theycan't like you, they can't keep
up.
And I was like, don't worry,when you know when you can keep
up, you're going to miss thesedays.
Yeah, yeah, that's definitely.
Scott (34:31):
She's like a little mini me, So it's kind of scaring my
wife.
Jim Koch (34:37):
So she's a little spacey like me and yeah Well the
world needs more of you, Scott,So don't worry about it.
Tell your wife she married you,you know, if she doesn't like
it, then that's all.
It's on her, Exactly.
Scott (34:53):
I keep trying to tell her that she's married you and
propagated one That's on her.
Jim Koch (34:56):
Maybe that's why it's only one.
Scott (34:59):
She was like no, we're done, no more.
Well, jim, this has beenabsolutely amazing.
Thank you so much for takingthe time to sit down with me and
to go through this little blastfrom the past trip and to also
just discuss.
You know your beginning And howthe company's growing and how
the company has done justnumerous things for businesses
out there And obviously I wishyou continued success.
(35:21):
It's interesting to watch froma distance.
You know your baby because it'skind of like you know, like my
kids kind of grow it up too.
Yeah.
Jim Koch (35:30):
It's all good, isn't it?
Scott (35:33):
The company was so 80, i started in 98.
Yeah.
Jim Koch (35:35):
So, what?
Scott (35:36):
14 years old?
I mean, it was relatively youngcompared to now, so yeah, A lot
of changes and a lot of goodchanges.
It's good to see.
Yeah, it's never boring Never,especially with you running the
show.
Jim Koch (35:50):
Well, you've been a part of it, scott, so thank you
for all those years.
Scott (35:53):
Cheers, cheers.
I really appreciate it And takecare.
Jim Koch (35:56):
Been a pleasure.
Bye now.
Scott (35:59):
I just want to thank you so much for doing this.
Don't thank me until.
Jim Koch (36:03):
I'm done.
You know this is to be a totalwaste of your time.
It's like why did I want totalk to this fuckwit?
Scott (36:10):
Never.
Jim Koch (36:10):
It's like I thought he was pretty smart, but no.
Jim Cook is the founder of the Boston Beer Company,
brewer of Sam Adams, he foundedthe company in 1984 when he
brewed the first batch of BostonLager in his kitchen, a recipe
belonging to his great-greatgrandfather that he founded as
father's attic back in the early1980s.
In spite of the challenge,conventional thinking about beer
, jim brought the recipe to lifewith the hope that drinkers
would appreciate his complex,full-flavored beers and started
(00:20):
sampling that beer in Boston.
He named the flagship brewSamuel Adams Boston Lager in
recognition of one of ournation's founding fathers, a
revolutionary man of independentand pioneering spirit.
In 2016, jim wrote his firstbook Quench Your Own Thirst
Business Lessons Learned Over aBeer or Two, a national
bestseller and named 2016 bestbook of the year by Inc,
business Insider, forbes andAmazon.
Today, sam Adams is one of themost awarded brewers and remains
(00:42):
focused on crafting the highestquality beers through
innovation and experimentationin the relentless pursuit of
better beer.
Samuel Adams Boston Lager hasled the American craft beer
revolution for more than 40years, bringing full-flavored
beer to the American beerlandscape.
Jim Cook, welcome to CarneySaves the World.
Jim Koch (00:58):
Well, it's an honor to be here.
I'm going to try to help yousave the world, one beer at a
time.
Scott (01:04):
That's all we can ask.
That's all we can ask.
How are you, my friend?
I'm great.
How are you Great?
Where are you?
I'm in Wilmington, northCarolina, now, okay.
Jim Koch (01:14):
Not a bad place to be.
Yeah, actually, i once lookedat a map a long time ago and
said where is it on the eastcoast that doesn't have bad
weather?
And you end up on coastal NorthCarolina, new Bern, wilmington.
Scott (01:32):
Right down down in Wilmington.
We moved six years ago when wehad my daughter, a mid-family,
down here, and it was beforeCOVID, so there's no working
from home Wow.
Jim Koch (01:41):
You're ahead of the curve, as usual, yeah, right.
Scott (01:55):
One of the things I wanted to do today is taste new
lager with you.
I'm really excited to do it.
Good Making sure I got somenice fresh lager from the store.
We're good to go.
Jim Koch (02:03):
Perfect, hold mine off of the Kagerator.
Scott (02:05):
Nice, when the new Boston lager came out, i said, well, i
tasted every single bear withJim Cook during orientation 25
years ago.
I need to try this one with himtoday, so I'm psyched.
Jim Koch (02:17):
Me too.
I got to get the carny seal ofapproval before we can really
roll the barrels.
Scott (02:24):
I don't think you'll have a problem with it, but let's
give it a shot.
So what was the genesis ofmaking this newer, brighter
Boston lager?
Jim Koch (02:31):
Well, it's really started at the very beginning.
You know I'm one of thosebelievers that you can always
improve things, and you know Istarted with this great recipe.
It got picked as the best beerin America four years running
And everybody says it's a greatbeer.
But I thought, well, there'sstill things you can do.
(02:54):
And, along with fellowco-worker who you know well,
david Grinnell, we agreed thatthere was such a thing as a
perfect Boston lager.
We just hadn't made it yet.
So over the 39 years since Ifirst brewed it, we've made lots
of little tweaks and changes toit.
(03:15):
I mean stuff that's well belowthe radar screen of even, you
know, beer geeks.
Stuff like changing the harvesttiming of the hops that come
from Bavaria They were beingharvested too early for the last
300 years And we realized that,and you know.
(03:39):
But harvest them later got morearoma, better flavor.
Things like making sure therewas enough copper piping in the
brew kettles to get copper ionsinto the beer, which is a yeast
nutrient.
So having a custom malt thatgave us a smoother Boston lager.
(04:01):
I could go on, but we've madeprobably a dozen little tweaks
over the years, all in search ofthe perfect Boston lager, and
the latest one.
We decided well, let's just,we're going to make this latest
change Again.
It's not a huge revolutionarychange in the flavor, it's a
(04:25):
minor tweak but it's enough tobe tasteable And it's a
traditional German brewingprocess that meets the
Reinhardt'skibote, the Germanbeer purity law, and it's called
biological acidification And Iwon't go into all of it.
But it replaces some watertreatment that brings, you know,
(04:46):
basically, limes, that bringscalcium into the beer, which
makes for a different, easier,louder ring, and it drops some
things out of the beer that youdon't want in there.
We replaced that withbiological acidification, which
is a parallel fermentation thatcreates, you know, lactic acid,
(05:10):
which is a very soft acid whichyou'd get in like, you know,
yogurt, for example, or milk,and that the end of the day, all
that geeky stuff makes abrighter, cleaner tasting Boston
Lager.
There were just like a few kindof rough spots in the taste that
(05:30):
it sanded down.
You know, david Grinnell, ourhead brewer for 35 years, my
partner in all of this is awoodworker.
In its spare time He uses thatanalogy.
You make a piece of furniture,but you can always make it a
little smoother.
You know, you get a smaller andsmaller grid of sandpaper you
(05:52):
get a finer steel.
You can always make it a littlesmoother, and that's what we
did.
Smoother and brighter BostonLager.
So here's to the perfect BostonLager, which we have not yet
made, but, god willing, i willlive to see it.
Cheers, cheers, cheers.
Does it get the carny seal ofapproval?
(06:13):
Clean, bright, smooth.
Scott (06:15):
Yeah, I think you got a winner here.
I think you got a winner here.
You guys are going with thisone.
Jim Koch (06:20):
All right, the barrels are rolling, the trucks are on
their way.
Scott (06:24):
Send it out.
Jim Koch (06:26):
Send it out.
Scott (06:26):
Yes, this is fantastic, jim.
I'm really a.
Jim Koch (06:30):
Well, it's nothing like drinking a Boston lager in
the morning with an old friend.
Scott (06:35):
I know absolutely.
I had to take the day out ofwork to do this.
Ah, me too.
We're just playing hooky today.
We're just playing hooky andhanging out.
Jim Koch (06:43):
Well, I play hooky every day.
Scott (06:47):
I see you got a little gray now So I haven't seen you
in like six years.
I like it.
Jim Koch (06:51):
Yeah, good, it makes me distinguish.
Scott (06:54):
Like me, you're like me?
Jim Koch (06:55):
Yeah well, that's exactly right.
You've always been my rolemodel.
Scott (07:02):
I've been everybody's gray role model.
I've been gray since I was like17.
Jim Koch (07:05):
Well, you know it's funny.
You got a little whack in themustache.
unless you're thinking that, No, that's the only.
Scott (07:10):
That's the reason why I grow the beard, just so I could
show off the mustache.
Jim Koch (07:14):
Nice, nice.
Scott (07:15):
When I interviewed the job at the Boss Beer Company, i
remember I was like I've got todarken up my hair.
I got to look professional andyounger And I remember doing
some Just for Men and then Ididn't realize I left a little
on my ear.
My entire ear, the top of myear, turns jet black And I had
to sit.
Everybody I interviewed with Ihad to sit with that ear to the
(07:35):
door so nobody could see me andthink I was like what the heck's
going on with this guy?
He's got jet black ear hair.
That was kind of weird.
Jim Koch (07:42):
Well, we thought it was gangrene.
Scott (07:44):
Probably was Just cut it off and start over.
One of the coolest things thatI experienced while working with
you and working at the BostonBeer Company over for so many
years was the hop sharingprogram.
Could you talk a little bitabout that?
I mean, you saved so manycompanies, you saved so many
breweries.
You saved had to save theindustry to some extent.
(08:05):
Could you talk about that alittle bit?
Jim Koch (08:07):
Sure The hop sharing program happened.
It was a point where there wasa worldwide shortage of hops.
It was one of those calamitiesthat happens every whatever 50
years where you had a record badhop crop in Germany and in the
(08:28):
United States, And it was at atime when demand for hops was
taking off.
Ipas, which are very hopintensive, became the principal
style of craft beer And peoplewere starting to put more hops
in their beers and worldwideinventories were at very low
levels.
And along comes the doublecalamity of too bad hop years in
(08:56):
the principal growing areas.
So there were breweries thatjust could not get hops.
There were not enough hops togo around, And we've been doing
this for quite a long time.
My family's been brewing beerfor 170 years, something like
(09:17):
that.
You learn a few things, whichis it's a good idea to have as
much as a full year of hops inyour inventory, So if there's a
really bad hop year, you canstill make your beer without
making any compromises.
So we had more than enough hopsfor ourselves And we were
(09:43):
willing to take a chance that wewere not going to have another
really catastrophic hop year Andwe could release some of the
hops that we had in inventoryAnd we also had kind of first
dibs on hops because we asopposed to most of the craft
(10:04):
brewers, we actually werecontracting with the farmers.
So we were the first customerwhose needs got met And a lot of
craft brewers had not beenthrough lean years So they
assumed there were always goingto be hops to be purchased.
So they were on the spot market.
So we got most of our contractneeds and we delved into our
(10:31):
inventory and offered them tocraft brewers who were not able
to get hops.
And we kind of did it on thehonor system.
We asked brewers only to submitrequests for what they really
needed And we sold them at ourprice, which was about five
(10:51):
bucks a pound, when on the spotmarket they were going for 20 or
25 bucks.
So there was a real temptationfor our fellow craft brewers to
buy them and then sell them at abig profit.
And yeah said it was a reallygreat example of the craft
brewing community, because Idon't think anybody did.
(11:13):
People just asked for what theyneed and we were able to help
hundreds and hundreds of verysmall brewers continue to make
their great beers continue to,you know, put the same amount of
hops in them, not compromisethe quality, and it helped them
stay in business as well thatwas awesome.
Scott (11:31):
I remember that and you know to go back because we
didn't do this originally and Iapologize, but anybody that's
had two beers in their lifemostly would know who you are.
But for those folks that maynot know who you are, could you
just kind of give your backstoryon your, on your family history
and a little bit more in detailabout the Boston Beer Company's
founding?
Jim Koch (11:50):
Sure, i have to include, you know, the the peak
experience of meeting ScottCarney 25 years ago.
I appreciate that that comesfirst.
Yeah, there are many lesserexperiences.
I mean my background, prettyquick, is, you know, i'm six
oldest son in a row and myfamily to be a brewer.
I didn't start my career as abrewer.
(12:13):
I was a manufacturingconsultant and then when I was,
like I don't know, 33, 34, irealized I didn't want to do
that job so I quit.
I thought about what I wantedto do and I kept coming back to
brewing beer.
And this was back in the early80s when there was no craft
brewing industry there, the termhadn't even been invented.
(12:37):
There were a couple, a handfulof like crazy scat at all over
the country that were basicallyscaled up home brewers who, you
know, had this crazy idea thatyou could make a living making
high quality American beer on asmall scale, competing with
imports, you know, hoping thatsomebody would buy your beer.
(13:00):
And there's no real role modelsfor success of those early
craft brewers.
They're pretty much all gone.
None of them really made it,other than Sam Adams and Sierra
Nevada.
So it was not, you know, thehighway to great riches, but it
to me it was, you know,something that I thought was
(13:24):
just this would be cool if Icould actually make a living
making the kind of beer that myfamily has made for a century
plus.
At that point and I started inmy kitchen I got a recipe from
my dad that had come from mygreat, great grandfather's
brewery, so I knew this was agreat beer it was.
(13:45):
You could tell by the recipe itwas big, flavorful, rich, very,
you know, using the bestingredients two roast summer
barley and sort of heirloomBavarian hops.
And you know I went from bar tobar selling it because I
couldn't even get a distributor,and you know it got picked as
(14:08):
the best beer in America.
The company was two people whenthat happened.
So that was kind of crazy thatthe best beer in America was
made by this guy you never heardof and his partner, a woman
named Rhonda, and we, you know,we sold it bar to bar and it got
bigger and then it got bigger,and then it got bigger and it
(14:31):
just kept getting bigger.
And here we are and then wehired Scott Carney and the guy
was the limit.
I was around for some prettydecent growth.
Scott (14:40):
You were a lot of growth.
Yeah, i was there for all thebrand's extensions and you know
twisted tea and angry orchardand truly all under the umbrella
of the Boston beer companyactually funny.
So my wife was a huge seltzerfan, just in general, and the
summer that truly came out.
She was pregnant with mydaughter and she was so mad she
(15:02):
couldn't have any to wait untilmy daughter was born.
Jim Koch (15:04):
And then all right, we kept making it.
We, we were patiently waitingfor your wife to come in and
give us that push that we needed.
Scott (15:15):
I actually have this funny story.
I told it on one of the otherepisodes of of Cardi saves the
world when I was saving theworld.
So right before we moved toWilmington, my wife had come to
the office and she brought mydog.
She was in the foyer and youwould come right around the
corner and I said, hey, jim,how's it going?
I said you remember my wife,katie?
and you said hi, katie, andthen you looked at my dog and my
dog is a pugilier.
She's the strangest looking dogon the planet.
(15:36):
And you looked at her and youwere like what are her breeds?
and I said, all right, i mean,she's a half pug, half Cavalier
King Charles Spaniel.
You said oh wow.
And you looked at her and youshe said out loud what was the
shelf life on those breeds?
Jim Koch (15:48):
Cavalier King Charles Spaniel's, as you know.
You know, they do kind of havea poll date yes, yes, they do,
yes, they do.
Scott (15:59):
It was funny.
So I had kind of just recentlylooked that up and I was like,
oh, it's about eight years onboth, and I was like, oh, it's
like eight, eight years orsomething like that.
Then you said, well, how old isshe?
and I said, well, she's seven,you're, so she's got some time.
Well, nice to see you, katie.
And you walked away and my wifeturned to me and said did Jim
cook?
just ask when our dog is goingto die?
and I was like, yeah, i thinkthat.
I think that was what he said.
Jim Koch (16:21):
I was trying to soften the blow for you.
Scott (16:23):
I'm proud to report she is still kicking awesome yeah 14
.
Jim Koch (16:28):
Now you know those life expectancy tables don't
include owners like you thatgive beer to your dog.
Scott (16:35):
Just keep giving her the beer man, we would recycle the
bottles and so we'd have youknow the cases, and then we'd
put the bottles just in the casewhen they're done, and we'd
catch her licking the tops ofthe bottles my wife's caught me
doing the same thing.
Jim Koch (16:46):
Don't worry about it, that's awesome.
Scott (16:49):
I have a question for you .
This is a very serious question.
One of my favorite beers on theplanet not just Sam Adams'
beers one of my favorite beerson the planet was Sam Adams'
Whitewater IPA.
I absolutely love that beer AndNick Goslin and I go back and
forth trolling each other on theSam Adams Facebook page and
thinking he likes the originalWhite Ale And I told him I was
going to ask you if we couldbring that back.
(17:09):
You could just say yes andwe'll make it look like it's
coming back.
Jim Koch (17:14):
Well, i mean, we do bring a lot of them back, but
they're in the tap rooms, likeat a brewery in Boston and one
in Ohio.
I love that beer too.
That was really I mean, thatwas a leader in sort of
branching the IPA style out,because it was kind of getting
(17:35):
generic almost Everybody'smaking the same type of IPA.
So we kept trying to, you know,to add to the style with a
white IPA.
If you remember, we had likelatitude 48 and we've had
different kinds of IPAs over theyears.
Scott (17:54):
You can't see my shirt, but I actually wore my Rebel IPA
.
Oh, I saw you shirt It saidRebel IPA.
Yeah.
Jim Koch (17:59):
Yeah, you remember Rebel.
We're working on a new one too.
Oh good, like a simplified, youknow, juicy IPA.
So you know, we're alwaysmaking new beers.
I get bored, if you remember.
I have like the attention spanof a gerbil.
So what'd we say?
What were we talking about?
Scott (18:19):
Yeah, something shiny, what?
So?
I definitely wanted to talkabout Bring the American Dream
program that you started, whichhas helped so many people and so
many businesses get off theground.
Could you tell us, you know,what was the reason for the
start of that one?
Jim Koch (18:32):
Yeah, that's got its own story.
And the Bring American Dreamprogram is primary philanthropic
activity.
What it is is supportingstartups and small businesses in
the food and beverage spacethrough micro loans and coaching
(18:57):
and counseling, and we startedit, i think, in 2008.
We've supported it for 15 yearsJen Glanville, who, you know,
is running it now And in those15 years we've now reached $100
(19:18):
million in loans to smallbusinesses all across the United
States And we've donecounseling and coaching And, if
you remember, it was kind ofspeed dating type stuff for
10,000 small businesses in foodand beverage.
(19:42):
So it's something that is ourway of giving back in a
meaningful fashion.
Because what I remember fromwhen I started, there were two
things that I wish I'd been ableto have available to me.
One was loan money, becausenobody would lend me money to do
(20:06):
this stupid thing to start abrewery when nobody had started
a brewery for years.
And the other was like justnuts and bolts, business advice
Because, you know, i mean I had.
You'd think I had theeducational background to start
a business.
I had a MBA, i had a JD, i hadsix and a half years of
(20:28):
management consulting.
You thought I had no business.
Well, i sort of knew it at thehigh level, but as a small
business person, it's all nutsand bolts.
It's just all these things thatyou're doing that you've never
done before, You know, and ifyou screw them up, it's really
damaging.
So I didn't know.
(20:49):
I didn't negotiate a real estatelease.
I didn't know how to getpublicity for the company.
I didn't know how to design alabel.
I didn't know how to even paypeople.
I mean, how do you withhold andsocial security and
unemployment, all this?
(21:09):
you know bureaucracy.
You got to just to pay oneperson.
I didn't know any of that stuffAnd if you've done it before,
it's all you know.
It's all pretty simple.
So we wanted to give startupcompanies and small businesses
trying to expand to the nextlevel, you know access to good
(21:30):
nuts and bolts business advice,to small business loans, and I'm
happy to say that the repaymentrate on our loans is like 98%,
which is way above what banksget you know when they're, and
banks don't make risky loanslike we do.
So we've helped, you know,thousands and thousands of small
(21:54):
business entrepreneurs allaround the country.
Yeah, that's awesome.
Basically, food and beveragewhich is a broad category, but
it's the category that you know.
We know because we're not inbiotech, we're not in fintech,
we're not in any kind of tech.
Otherwise I would have beenable to get into your
(22:14):
application and we could haverecorded it on your studio
program.
Scott (22:19):
It's been amazing.
Jim Koch (22:20):
Yeah, but we made this work.
So we're not, you know, supersophisticated, but we know how
to make things that taste good.
We know, you know, what mattersin food and beverage.
We know how to, you know, get aproduct to market.
We know how to maintain quality.
So we have those things leftthat can help lots of small
(22:45):
businesses, because there's alot of entrepreneurs in the food
and beverage space.
Scott (22:49):
Yeah, i love the, and this was your mantra and it was
something that you said everynational meeting.
You said it whenever you could,but you're, you know,
restlessly challenging thestatus quo.
We appreciated that fact and itreally made us, you know,
strive for more in our jobs andeven in our, you know, in
personal life.
I mean, i have interviewed afew people that I'm friends with
(23:10):
that have done some crazythings, and one of them is Roy
Milner.
He was two episodes ago.
He was a sales rep fromTennessee before her boss to
beer and he Basically they kindof did this very similar thing
to you.
It was, you know, you were kindof an inspiration.
He went out and he owns Breweryout in Tennessee now and
they're making amazing beers,awesome, that's great.
Jim Koch (23:30):
Yeah, there's been a lot of people who left Boston
beer, you know, and startedbreweries, and I'm very proud of
them.
They've all made really greatbeers.
Scott (23:40):
Remember Grant Wood.
Jim Koch (23:42):
Yeah, yeah, grant went down to Texas and started.
Revolver Made you know bloodand honey, blood orange and
honey beer.
It was delicious.
Scott (23:52):
Yeah, It was fantastic, I had it.
It was phenomenal.
How does it feel to be likethat inspiration, or that level
of inspiring to those people youknow, knowing that they
listened to your message.
at some point something clickedand they went out and did it.
Jim Koch (24:05):
Well, you know, in my mind they would have done it
anyway.
I mean, we've had let's face it, we've had some really, really
talented people at Boston BeerCompany And I've been privileged
to work with them, yourselfincluded.
I mean, who would have thoughtthat this crazy kid with a black
ear would be doing podcasts andbeing really professional about
(24:29):
it?
So you know, we just had really, really talented people.
You know, you got a lot oftalents, man, so we've got a lot
of people like Scott Carney.
I wish my wife knew that.
No, I'm just kidding, Don'tworry my wife still thinks I'm a
loser too.
That's why they marry us,you'll never, you know, reach
(24:50):
their standards.
It's just way too high.
Scott (24:53):
Bull post booths constantly.
Jim Koch (24:54):
Yeah, exactly, but we can at least have a beer in the
morning.
Scott (24:58):
Yeah right, the book is just was a huge hit And another
piece of inspiration for a lotof people, and one of the things
that you mentioned in the bookthat you also mentioned in all
of our national meetings wasyour string theory version.
Could you talk about that,because I think that's such a
cool concept And I think forpeople who have never gotten the
chance to listen in order toread about it, this chance to
(25:19):
hear it would be really cool.
Jim Koch (25:20):
Sure, Sure, the book is called Quench Your Own Thirst
.
Business lessons learned over abeer or two.
The chapter on the stringtheory is something that I
learned when I was an outweighbound instructor, and the string
was actually technically alpinecord.
But I learned that if you gaveyour group plenty of string at
(25:45):
the beginning, they ended upwith not enough at the end.
So I tried giving them notenough at the beginning And, lo
and behold, they ended up withplenty at the end And the string
was stuff you used to like lashthings on your pack and set up
your tarps and tie thingstogether, and if people had too
(26:10):
much of it, they wasted it Andthey'd leave scraps on trees.
They'd forget it.
They never learned to use itefficiently.
If they had too little, theyactually would conserve it and
learn to use it reallyefficiently.
So that's an important lessonfor a small business, because
(26:32):
you never have enough resourcesAnd if you apply this string
theory, force yourself to useeverything very efficiently,
don't waste anything, and if youdo that, you're generally gonna
have enough.
I mean, it's kind of arepackaging of necessity as the
(26:54):
mother of invention If peopleneed to stretch the resources,
which is constantly the case ina small business.
Even today, as successful asBoston Beer Company has been, we
still compete against peoplewho are 10 times our size, and
if we're not more efficient,they'll kill us.
(27:15):
So we keep this string theoryin the front of our minds And
you may not think you've gotenough, but you actually do if
you use it right.
Scott (27:24):
Yeah, that's great.
You mentioned that.
The business is just.
It's changing.
It's constantly evolving.
Where do you see the I mean thepoor little breweries getting
bought up by the big guys?
Where do you see the businessin in the next five or 10 years
going?
Jim Koch (27:37):
Well, kraft Beer has basically done what we all hoped
and prayed that it mightsomeday do and become.
My vision, when things startedgoing and I realized that this
was a bigger idea than I thoughtwas that someday America would
(28:00):
make the best beer in the world,would teach the rest of the
world how to innovate and makegreat beer, and we would have a
significant cultural impact asKraft Brewers and be a stable
and mature industry.
And that was 35 years ago andit happened.
(28:23):
Kraft beer is like 10 or 15% ofthe beer in the United States.
There's 10,000 Kraft BrewersAnd the rest of the world looks
to the small independent brewerslike Sam Adams to teach them
how to innovate and make greatbeer.
(28:44):
Our prayers have been answeredAnd it's now a mature industry.
I mean, it was never gonna growand be 100% of beer in the
United States, but it's 10 or15% of a big market And there's
incredible diversity of beers.
(29:07):
America today is the best placein history to be a beer drinker
.
So we've accomplished that.
It's now a mature industry.
So you can't just open abrewery and think if you brew it
, they will come.
You gotta have somethingspecial, something good, and
(29:32):
it's not.
I mean, this industry was neverone that promised great wealth.
This was not, even though somepeople thought, oh, i'll start a
craft brewery, i'll get rich.
Odds were always very, verytiny that that would happen.
And now it's a mature industryand people who don't have a
(29:55):
little good luck and a reallygood beer and the right people
involved with them.
There's people coming into thebusiness and people going out of
the business but it's here tostay.
Scott (30:06):
Yeah, we see, wilminton is a huge, huge craft beer
market.
I mean, we've got I could evenmaybe 15 brews in and around the
county that I'm in And it'sinteresting because you'll see
these little brews pop up.
But then you'll see a littlebrewery pop up with a gigantic
building And it just seems likeI mean, i don't know their
business model, it just seemslike they may be overshooting a
(30:27):
bit with the gigantic tap roomand the four garage doors that
lead out to the brew house AndI'm like, yeah, Well, you
remember where we started, Youknow, in that rundown space in a
bad neighborhood of Boston Ihad a thousand square feet and
my rent was a dollar a year.
Jim Koch (30:48):
So my monthly rent check was like eighty eight
dollars.
Scott (30:53):
That's amazing.
We haven't been back home, butI've seen online all the
additions and you know, you knowchanges and upgrades that the
brewery's gone through.
It looks beautiful Yeah.
Jim Koch (31:03):
Well, we're still doing it, We're still growing in
that crazy site.
Scott (31:08):
I remember that there used to be a crust from the
brewery.
It was the other, one of theother big buildings in the
complex where all the recordswere kept And myself and Ty
Rickman had to go get somerecords one day.
We it was like catacombs.
Yeah, these records were stored.
Yeah, we're going in herebecause the complex was so old
(31:28):
and Yeah, It's 150 years old nowIt's.
Jim Koch (31:32):
you know it's one of the few places in the United
States that's never beenanything but a brewery since the
1860s.
So yeah, it's like catacombs.
I hope you didn't trip over anyskeletons.
Scott (31:44):
We randomly heard a dog barking where like that can't be
possible.
We're pretty sure it was a dogghost, so it took off.
Here's one of my favoritequotes from the book.
It's the chapter about welcomethe dude with the bold painted
toenails And you say final.
Final quote here is rememberthat most of us came into the
(32:05):
world as screaming messy blobsof bad plumbing.
But with a little love andattention and faith in our
future, we managed to grow it tofully functioning, successful
human beings.
Very well put, yeah.
Jim Koch (32:17):
Miracle of miracles.
Scott (32:18):
Yeah, Like bad plumbing.
Oh right, Well you had a kid.
Jim Koch (32:23):
you know what it's like, I mean.
Scott (32:25):
Oh, i, absolutely, absolutely So.
Your kids, your kids, were kids, kids.
They were my daughter's age.
When you're two youngestdaughters, when, when I first
started, all the kids grown upnow.
Jim Koch (32:36):
Well, i mean, they're older, that's for sure.
You're their father, so I meanthey are fully functioning,
successful human beings.
So, yes, i mean, yeah, i havefour children, as you know, and
yeah, they're, they're all outon their own.
Actually, my the youngest onejust graduated from college last
(33:00):
year.
Scott (33:00):
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Jim Koch (33:03):
So her graduation was my 50th reunion.
Scott (33:06):
Oh wow, that's good Yeah, when I was when I was
graduating.
Jim Koch (33:11):
If somebody said, yeah , and your 50th reunion, you're
going to be watching yourdaughter graduate.
I don't like shooting.
Scott (33:17):
They're right.
Jim Koch (33:20):
They're all in great in a great situation.
I'm real very lucky thatthey're all pretty much grownups
and they've navigated, you know, childhood and young adulthood,
and they're functioning justlike you and me man.
Scott (33:34):
Well, i mean me functioning is.
We'll see.
Jim Koch (33:38):
It doesn't have to be conventional.
It can just be what a humanbeing is, which kind of you know
might be a screaming messy blobof bad neuroses, but we're
making it Wait a minute.
Scott (33:52):
Who told you that?
No, I'm just kidding.
I've got, so I'm 49.
I've got a six year old andit's, I feel you.
I know what you're watching,Yeah a blessing.
Jim Koch (34:02):
I'm sorry.
Scott (34:03):
It's amazing.
But there are times where it'sjust I can't even keep up with
her.
But she's crazy.
That's a good thing.
Jim Koch (34:10):
She's amazing and life changing Yeah.
Well, like I said, my last onejust graduated.
I miss them.
You know, i see people with,like you know, three or four,
you know young kids and theycan't like you, they can't keep
up.
And I was like, don't worry,when you know when you can keep
up, you're going to miss thesedays.
Yeah, yeah, that's definitely.
Scott (34:31):
She's like a little mini me, So it's kind of scaring my
wife.
Jim Koch (34:37):
So she's a little spacey like me and yeah Well the
world needs more of you, Scott,So don't worry about it.
Tell your wife she married you,you know, if she doesn't like
it, then that's all.
It's on her, Exactly.
Scott (34:53):
I keep trying to tell her that she's married you and
propagated one That's on her.
Jim Koch (34:56):
Maybe that's why it's only one.
Scott (34:59):
She was like no, we're done, no more.
Well, jim, this has beenabsolutely amazing.
Thank you so much for takingthe time to sit down with me and
to go through this little blastfrom the past trip and to also
just discuss.
You know your beginning And howthe company's growing and how
the company has done justnumerous things for businesses
out there And obviously I wishyou continued success.
(35:21):
It's interesting to watch froma distance.
You know your baby because it'skind of like you know, like my
kids kind of grow it up too.
Yeah.
Jim Koch (35:30):
It's all good, isn't it?
Scott (35:33):
The company was so 80, i started in 98.
Yeah.
Jim Koch (35:35):
So, what?
Scott (35:36):
14 years old?
I mean, it was relatively youngcompared to now, so yeah, A lot
of changes and a lot of goodchanges.
It's good to see.
Yeah, it's never boring Never,especially with you running the
show.
Jim Koch (35:50):
Well, you've been a part of it, scott, so thank you
for all those years.
Scott (35:53):
Cheers, cheers.
I really appreciate it And takecare.
Jim Koch (35:56):
Been a pleasure.
Bye now.
Scott (35:59):
I just want to thank you so much for doing this.
Don't thank me until.
Jim Koch (36:03):
I'm done.
You know this is to be a totalwaste of your time.
It's like why did I want totalk to this fuckwit?
Scott (36:10):
Never.
Jim Koch (36:10):
It's like I thought he was pretty smart, but no.
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