July 8, 2025 • 34 mins
Hiring isn’t the real problem; retention is. And if you’re scaling past 7 figures, turnover doesn’t just slow you down... it sabotages momentum, culture, and profitability.
In this episode, I’m joined by Dr. Paul White, psychologist, bestselling author, and co-creator of The 5 Languages of Appreciation in the Workplace with Dr. Gary Chapman. For over 20 years, Paul has helped businesses, from startups to household names like Pepsi and Caterpillar, eliminate disengagement, stop recognition fatigue, and build sustainable, high-performing cultures.
We unpack 3 proven team appreciation strategies that aren’t about birthday parties, bonuses, or gift cards. These are tactical, data-backed ways to increase team loyalty, fix remote culture gaps, and reduce the hidden cost of churn - without adding complexity.
If you lead a remote or hybrid team, or you're noticing drops in morale or ownership as you scale, this one’s for you.
⏱ Chapter Breakdown
Timestamp | Chapter Title
00:00 | Intro: Dr. Paul White’s Work With Teams
02:09 | From Psychology to Business: Paul’s Origin Story
04:34 | What 450,000 Employees Taught Us About Appreciation
06:32 | Why Recognition Alone Doesn’t Keep Top Talent
07:59 | The Flawed Gift Card Culture and HR Fatigue
10:09 | The True Cost of Missing Appreciation
13:23 | Appreciation as Culture Oil: A Practical Metaphor
15:05 | Words of Affirmation: What Works, What Backfires
18:35 | Remote Teams: How to Build Loyalty from Afar
21:49 | Building Connection Without Wasting Time
23:18 | Retention and Profitability: The Unseen Link
30:09 | What Paul’s Wrestling With: Succession and Scale
📚 Books Mentioned
- The 5 Languages of Appreciation in the Workplace by Dr. Gary Chapman & Dr. Paul White
- Integrity by Dr. Henry Cloud
- Trust by Dr. Henry Cloud
To get access to a free sample of the Motivating by Appreciation Inventory, a group report, and insights on how this system is working inside companies like Pepsi and Caterpillar, email Paul directly at yesdrpaul@gmail.com. Just mention this podcast in the subject line.
Join Dr. William Attaway on the Catalytic Leadership podcast as he shares transformative insights to help high-performance entrepreneurs and agency owners achieve Clear-Minded Focus, Calm Control, and Confidence.
- Free 30-Minute Discovery Call:
Ready to elevate your business? Book a free 30-minute discovery call with Dr. William Attaway and start your journey to success.
- Special Offer:
Get your FREE copy of Catalytic Leadership: 12 Keys to Becoming an Intentional Leader Who Makes a Difference.
Connect with Dr. William Attaway:
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dr. William Attaway (00:00):
It is such an honor today to have Dr Paul
White on the podcast.
Dr White is a psychologist,author, speaker and consultant
who makes work relationshipswork.
For the last 20 years he'simproved numerous businesses,
government agencies andnonprofit organizations by
helping them to reduce the levelof cynicism and negative
(00:23):
communication within theworkplace, eliminate
supervisors' frustration fromnot knowing how to effectively
encourage their staff, learn howto communicate authentic
appreciation versus thatgoing-through-the-motions
recognition, and understand andsuccessfully manage the stress
level experienced in today'sdemanding environment.
(00:45):
Dr White is the co-author ofthe book the Five Languages of
Appreciation in the Workplace,written with Dr Gary Chapman,
author of the number one NewYork Times bestseller, the Five
Love Languages.
Based on their extensiveresearch and expertise, dr White
and Dr Chapman have developed aunique way for organizations to
(01:06):
motivate their employees thatleads to increased job
satisfaction, higher employeeperformance and enhanced levels
of trust.
Their motivating byappreciation inventory and
appreciation at work trainingresources have been used by
numerous corporations, collegesand universities, medical
(01:27):
facilities, schools, nonprofitorganizations and government
agencies.
Dr White, I'm so glad you'rehere.
Thanks for being on the show.
Intro video (01:39):
Hey, thanks for having me.
William Glad to be here.
Welcome to Catalytic Leadership, the podcast designed to help
leaders intentionally grow andthrive here is your host author
and leadership and executivecoach, Dr William Attaway.
Dr. William Attaway (02:05):
I would love to start with you sharing a
little bit of your story withour listeners, particularly
around your journey and yourdevelopment as a leader.
Dr. Paul White (02:09):
How, did you get started?
Well, it sort of depends whichstarting point.
But I'm a psychologist bytraining and for a lot of my
career I focused on evaluatingstudents that have learning
difficulties, adhd and dyslexiaand that.
But I grew up in the context ofa family-owned business outside
of Kansas City and some friendsof mine knew of that and I'm a
(02:30):
little bit more business-mindedthan most psychologists, and
they kept running into familyissues as they consulted with
businesses, because 85% of allthe companies in the US are
family-owned.
And so I started working as afamily coach with successful
family businesses across thecountry dealing with family
issues, largely around businesssuccession and wealth transfer.
(02:53):
And in the midst of that I wasin North Carolina talking with
the father and CEO of a companyand asked him you know, how's
the sort of plan going of thesuccession?
He said it's going well, myson's stepping up, I think it'll
work.
And I walk across the hall andasked the son the same question
and he said this is a disaster,it's never going to work, I
(03:15):
can't ever please my dad, andwhich I could understand.
And but at the same time mywife and I were reading the Five
Love Languages by Dr Chapmanand I thought I wonder if this
might be applicable in familybusinesses.
So I pursued Dr Chapman, tookme a year to get through to him
(03:36):
and finally met with him andpitched the idea and we started
working on the project of sortof transferring the concepts of
the five love languages to workand you know, appreciation
seemed to be the main conceptand then developed the online
assessment which we've had over450,000 people take, developed a
(03:58):
training process and then otherbooks as well, and that's what
I do now.
Dr. William Attaway (04:28):
And then other books as well, and that's
what I do now, and so I enjoy itand get to learn a lot about
that large.
What are some of the thingsthat you've learned as you've
done this research?
Are there things that havesurprised you?
Dr. Paul White (04:34):
Well, you know.
So the book originally came outin 2011.
We wrote it I think we wrote itin 2014, and then 2019, 2023.
And so there's been lessonsalong the way.
One of the first lessons was westarted out focusing on leaders
and managers, teaching them howto communicate appreciation to
their team members, but quicklylearned that employees want to
(04:57):
know how to show appreciation totheir colleagues and also they
value being appreciated by theircoworkers, and so we sort of
switched up the model fromfocusing just on leaders to
teaching team members how toshow authentic appreciation to
one another, and that was reallya key piece, because that's
(05:17):
sort of what makes it sing.
It's too much responsibilityjust for leaders to have on
their shoulders, to have to showappreciation to everybody on
their team.
So that was a lesson.
Also, over time, we've learnedthat there are generational
differences, you know, and thatjust knowing a person's language
of appreciation and there arefive, they're the same in name
(05:40):
as the five love languages wordsof affirmation, quality time,
acts of service, tangible giftsand physical touch, which is an
interesting one in our culture,not so much in others, but just
knowing the language reallyisn't sufficient that there are
quite differences of action.
So words is probably the mostobvious one is that some people
(06:05):
you know like to be called up infront of a group, sort of like
an employee recognition.
You know programs recognized infront of a big group, but we
found that at least 40% of theworkforce absolutely do not want
to go up in front of a largegroup and it's actually a
negative for them, and so if youjust do that for everybody, you
actually aren't accomplishingyour goal.
(06:27):
So there's that.
Also.
There's differences betweenquality time.
Those of us that are a littlebit older tend to focus on
focused attention from ourmanager or supervisor.
It makes us feel valued.
For younger workers, I tellolder managers, just because you
have a team member that hasquality time as their language
(06:47):
doesn't mean they want to havetime with you.
You may be wonderful, butthey're focused on their peer
relationships and hanging outwith their colleagues.
Our assessments in ninedifferent languages now, and
just cross-cultural differencestoo, that GIFs really don't
(07:10):
carry a lot of weight as far asencouraging people at a personal
level, and that less than 10%of employees really want to be
shown appreciation through GIFgifts and they prefer the other
languages.
Dr. William Attaway (07:27):
So just some lessons like that.
You know, when I first heardyou talk about this we met at a
conference several months agoand when I first heard you talk
about this, that surprised me,because so many companies and
organizations have theserecognition programs, or you
know they're focused all aroundgifts, gift cards, gift
certificates.
You know they're focused allaround gifts, gift cards, gift
certificates.
You know, maybe a plaque orsomething like that, and that
(07:52):
was such a small percentage ofpeople who were motivated by
that.
And yet that's the number onething I see, particularly in the
corporate world.
Dr. Paul White (07:59):
Right, yeah, and it's interesting, there's sort
of a symbiotic, maybe parasitic,relationship between HR
professionals and reward andrecognition companies.
I'm a straightforward talkingMidwesterner, but that's all
right, just that.
It's sort of easy to do.
(08:21):
I mean you get points and allthis and you turn it in and the
gift you don't even give thegift.
The person chooses their owngift.
It's sort of like at mybirthday saying, oh Paul, what
did you get?
Thanks for the birthday gift.
I mean it doesn't have a lot ofmeaning.
But also I mean the rewardrecognition companies.
(08:43):
That's how they make theirmoney right, because they skim
off the top of the cost thatthey charge you versus what it
costs them.
And so, whereas our model canbe grown over an organization,
but it's in a different way inthat we train teams and people,
(09:04):
so most reward recognitioncompanies say you know, we don't
really want to deal with thepeople aspect, we just want to
do it via, you know, platformsand technology.
Dr. William Attaway (09:17):
Absolutely.
You make a distinction betweenrecognition and appreciation.
Would you flesh that out alittle bit for our listeners?
Dr. Paul White (09:27):
Yeah, you know, initially when I came into this,
I came in sort of the side door, not being part of HR and that
kind of stuff, and I said, youknow, as we did research, we
found that, you know, thingsweren't working because employee
engagement continues to be lowand turnover is high.
(09:47):
And I said, you know, thisrecognition thing isn't working.
And the HR people said, yeah,we know, but we don't know what
else to do.
So but recognition really isabout performance.
It's, you know, reaching goals,doing your work well, and
that's good.
Oh, my sorry.
(10:09):
What happens is that recognitionis good for performance.
I mean, it started in the 50sand 60s and has developed well,
and so we want people to answerthe phone cheerfully, we want
them to get reports done on time.
The problem is that recognitiontends to only touch the top 10
or 15 percent of anyorganization.
(10:31):
So you've got this big middlegroup of people 50 to 60 percent
of team lack of feeling valuedand appreciated as one of the
main reasons that they'releaving, and so you sort of are
(10:57):
setting yourself up for thisrevolving door and we believe
that appreciation can be for youknow, doing work well, but it
also includes just the personthat employees are people, that
we have value beyond just whatwe produce.
We're not just production units, but we have characteristics
and qualities that are important, not really directly related to
(11:18):
performance.
Personally, I like to work withcheerful people more than you
know grumpy people.
I really enjoy your laugh,you've got a great laugh.
I've got a team member thatjust she's, you know, sort of
bright and cheery and comes inand smiles and it doesn't have
anything to do with herperformance, but she sort of
lightens the room when she comesin, you know.
(11:39):
And so there's that.
And also we can appreciatepeople for things not related to
work.
I mean that maybe when yourteam members is training for a
half marathon, you say, wow, bob, I'm just super impressed with
your self-discipline to, youknow, to train and make this
happen.
Or maybe a team member who'sreally committed to her kids and
(12:01):
say you know, maria, I'm justimpressed with how much you love
your kids and you're committedto them, you know, is that about
work?
No, is it about her?
Yes.
Does that build a sense ofconnection and loyalty?
Absolutely, and so, and moreand more.
I mean we're seeing highestlevels of loneliness reported by
employees, especially youngermales.
(12:22):
We're also seeing a sense ofdisconnectedness.
You know, partly with remotehybrid work, and we, through our
appreciation training, becausewe do it with team members, we
help create connectedness.
That then increases peoplestaying.
And we've got lots of researchin our book 50 research
(12:44):
citations showing it improvesproductivity, profitability,
customer ratings, all that kindof stuff.
Dr. William Attaway (12:53):
It's such a different way of thinking about
this, and that's one of thethings that I loved when I first
heard you talk about it.
It's a different way ofthinking about it, but it's
actually data-driven.
This isn't just saying well,you know, it's a theory, we
think this is what's working.
We, you know, we feel it in ourgut.
No, this is research data.
And again, a sample of 450,000people.
(13:14):
This isn't just like we picked10 people and built this whole
thing on what we learned.
Dr. Paul White (13:23):
Yeah, yeah, and I tell you know I mean, one of
the misconceptions leaders haveabout appreciation is that the
goal is just to make people feelgood and yeah that's.
We hope that that happens.
But really the goal is tocreate a more functional,
healthy organization, becausewhen people feel valued and
appreciated organization becausewhen people feel valued and
appreciated, things go better.
I mean, I use the image of oilin a car engine.
(13:46):
If you don't have oil, there'sfriction, there's heat, takes
more energy to get things doneand we see appreciation as sort
of the oil in the machine of theorganization that helps team
members work together better.
There's less conflict overstupid little things like you
know whether they you know whatsize their monitor is or where
they got a window or theirschedule or anything, and it
(14:08):
allows the time and energy ofpeople within the organization
to focus on the mission of theorganization rather than these
secondary side issues.
Dr. William Attaway (14:17):
You know, when I took the motivating by
appreciation inventory thesesecondary side issues you know,
when I took the motivating byappreciation inventory, it
indicated that my language ofappreciation is words of
affirmation, which is not asurprise because, having taken
the love language inventory some20 plus years ago, it's the
same thing and my wife and Ihave done this together and
learned a lot about our marriagethrough that, so it didn't
(14:38):
surprise me with this inventory.
But words of affirmation in theworkplace looks a little bit
different than it does in amarriage or in the home.
This is.
The most of the people in theinventory like the largest
percentage, I should say hadwords of affirmation as their
language of appreciation.
How would you describe that?
(14:59):
What does that look like whenit's lived out and what are some
things people need to avoidsaying?
Dr. Paul White (15:05):
Yeah.
So first of all, yeah, words ofaffirmation is the single
largest language of appreciationchosen by people, but it's less
than half of employees.
So if you're only using words,you're missing over half of your
team.
But the latest data shows 44%of employees have that and it's
(15:25):
different in that one.
I think the biggest mistakepeople make is that they're
vague.
They say you know, glad you'reon the team.
Good job, you know way to gothat kind of stuff, glad you're
on the team, good job, you knowway to go that kind of stuff.
And we actually did a poll andfound that that phrase, good job
is one of the ways people don'twant to hear, because it's so
(15:48):
vague in general that you knowanybody can say it doesn't take
any really time or energy tocreate.
And the key is to be specificand we teach a model of use a
person's name.
We like to hear a name and ifyou're writing it, spell it
correctly, because it doesn'tfeel real personal if you
misspell their name.
That's true.
Be specific about what youvalue, either about them or what
(16:12):
they've done.
And third, why it's important,either to you, to your
organization or to your client.
So it might be.
Brian, thanks for getting yourreports done and in on time to
me.
That's helpful to me becausethen I can take that along with
the other information and get myreport together without being
stressed.
You know about the deadline toget to my boss, and so be
(16:36):
specific.
So be specific.
You know I'm going to be writinga blog about introversion and
appreciation, because about half, maybe a little under half, of
people in the world areintroverts, meaning specifically
that communicating andinteracting with people drains
(16:59):
them emotionally.
You can actually be a shyintrovert.
You can be an outgoingintrovert.
It's just that it drains you Umand so to show appreciation
face to face, verbally uh, foran introvert is is more of a
mountain than it is for for meas an extrovert.
And so one of the nice waysabout words is that you can do
(17:20):
it through writing.
Right, and in the old days itwas a handwritten note.
You know.
We now know that for youngeremployees, especially 20
something guys, they don'treally give a rip about a
handwritten note.
It's.
It's more about the speed atwhich you get back to them.
If you think about theirculture, that's a pretty fast
moving pace.
And so to give them feedbackabout, you know, either a task
(17:46):
that they've done or somethingthat you noticed within the
first day or two is moreimportant than handwriting
something.
Get it to them in a week orlater, because then it's just in
history for them.
So it doesn't always have to beface-to-face in it, but it
really does need to be specific.
Dr. William Attaway (18:08):
That's really great advice and very
tactical, and I hope ourlisteners are capturing.
This is very practical stuffthat you can take and apply.
This is not just theory, thisis not just something up in the
clouds, but this is somethingyou can take and go.
This is not just theory, thisis not just something up in the
clouds, but this is somethingyou can take and go use with
your team now, this week, and Ihope that you will so.
44% words of affirmation whatis the next largest gift that
(18:33):
you see in the workplace?
Dr. Paul White (18:35):
Yeah.
The next one is quality time,and that's about 26%, so one out
of every four people, and, likeI said, it differs across
generations largely that forsome people it is focused
attention, because time reallyis our most valued resource now,
and so getting individual timeand focused attention helps a
(18:56):
person feel valued.
But for others it's doing thingstogether with their colleagues,
whether that's working togetheron a project or just being able
to hang out and have a sense ofcamaraderie, because, again,
research has shown, people feelpretty alone at work and
disconnected, and in fact we'vedone research over the years,
(19:21):
even pre COVID, with remoteemployees and hybrid employees.
And how do you showappreciation, like even quality
time, when you're not in thesame place?
You know, and the answer tothat is you set up a time to
talk to them because you don'thave those chance encounters,
you don't see them in the breakroom or coming in from the
(19:42):
parking lot or whatever, and soyou're proactive, but also that
the communication is about themas a person.
It's not just checking in abouttheir project and what they're
working on, but it's the kind ofthing that you know they used
to call water cooler chat youknow where you know you talk
about like I just heard on theradio that the Indiana Pacers
(20:04):
upset you know Oklahoma City inthe first game of the NBA.
You know you chat about that, oryou know something's going on.
You know you're coaching yourkids soccer team and you know
they ask about that or just talkabout the weather kinds of
things.
So it's creating a personalconnection, not just talking
(20:29):
about work.
Dr. William Attaway (20:30):
That does get challenging when it comes to
remote teams.
You know I've led remote teamsnow for almost a decade and it's
just so incredibly differentand you have to be so much more
intentional as you're takingthis and beginning to apply it
and a lot of our listeners leadremote teams, sometimes from all
over the world.
As you're thinking aboutcross-cultural people,
(20:54):
cross-cultural team members, arethere things you need to be
mindful of when thinking aboutappreciation in that type of a
context?
Dr. Paul White (21:02):
Yeah, you know, it's interesting.
A few years ago I was engagedby one of the big tech companies
to try to help a remoteinternational team learn how to
communicate appreciation withone another, and one of the key
factors is that they had nevermet each other in person and it
really was sort of like a taskforce team that comes together
(21:23):
for a while and I said we cantry, but I'm not sure it's going
to work, because, from my pointof view, appreciation really is
based on a relationship.
You can recognize somebody forperformance and a task, that's
fine, but to try to appreciatesomebody for who they are, when
you really haven't spent anytime, it just feels weird.
You usually miss the mark, andso I think you have to be
(21:48):
careful about that.
One of the key things that we'velearned is that, like part of
my team is remote, is that we'llhave a team meeting and part
either part of the team meetingor some actual the whole team
meeting is just about catchingup with one another.
What's going on in their lives,and is it productive?
Uh, from one point of view, youknow, uh, your eos, people may
(22:12):
say no, but, but on the otherhand, it's.
It creates relationalconnection and when we are
connected we understand eachother better, we communicate
better and, you know, you avoidsort of those miscommunications
that then wind up having to dealwith this problem down there.
(22:34):
So ultimately I think it'sworth it to take the time to do
that.
Dr. William Attaway (22:39):
I love that .
I love that.
I completely agree.
I think that when you see, whenpeople feel seen as an actual
3D human being instead of as acog in the machine of the
business, you know, instead ofjust as what they do, but
they're seen as a person, theylean in.
They lean in and I have seenthis increased retention on
(23:00):
teams which in turn, alwaystranslates to the bottom line,
because we know high churn onteam members always translates
to high churn with clients andall of that impacts the bottom
line.
So everything you're talkingabout really does have a bottom
line reflection at the end ofthe day, absolutely.
Dr. Paul White (23:18):
Yeah, yeah, and I mean the cost of.
I mean there's several researchstudies that, depending on the
level of the position, it's at aminimum a two times the salary
of the position, is the cost ofthe turnover and it goes up to
five and 10 times the higher upin the organization you are.
So it's critical to payattention to that.
Dr. William Attaway (23:43):
I think this topic is one that is worth
diving into for every one of ourlisteners, and I'm going to
encourage you to pick up thisbook the Five Languages of
Appreciation in the Workplace.
We'll have a link in the shownotes.
I want you to check this out.
I want you to learn as much asyou can about how to apply this
inside your team, inside yourbusiness, and we're going to
talk about some ways that youcan do that in just a minute.
(24:07):
Dr White, I want to turn to youfor just a second.
You know you're leading a verysuccessful business.
You're leading a team that isfocused on pouring into so many
different companies, so manydifferent organizations, and
trying to help them to getbetter, trying to help them to
learn how to do this, and thatripples that impacts so many
(24:28):
people.
Leading at the level that youlead at requires a lot of you.
How do you stay on top of yourgame?
How do you level up with thenew skills, the new leadership
skills that your team and yourbusiness and your clients are
going to need you to have in thedays to come?
Dr. Paul White (24:49):
You know, there's a couple of levels to
that question.
One is I have to take care ofmyself, because if I don't take
care of myself, it doesn'tmatter what I know, I'm not
going to relate to other peoplevery well.
So over time I've learned whatis renewing to me.
I mean, I love nature, I lovemusic, I love solitude more than
(25:12):
I used to.
I'm an outgoing guy, but mywork life is people and words
and so, man, I love to fish andgo hike and that kind of thing,
and so I've got to keep thatgoing as well as time with my
wife and my marriage.
And then, secondly, you know,not every great idea is a new
(25:33):
one, or, conversely, not everynew idea is a great one.
There are a lot of classic booksin leadership and business that
are helpful still, and, yeah,we got to keep up with the new
(25:53):
stuff and I try to do that.
I'm overwhelming at times.
But also I get input from myfriends, my colleagues, who are
business leaders and sort oflisten to what they're reading
and what do you find impactful,and sort of let them filter
through some stuff, versus metrying to read everything that
(26:13):
comes out and so getrecommendations from them.
That's real helpful and part ofit also is staying in touch
with the frontline worker.
I mean, if you talk to leadersall the time, you get leaders
perspectives, but that is notthe same as somebody that's on
the floor.
Let me tell you my family thefactory and you know it wasn't.
(26:35):
I told my dad, you know one ofhis goals was to teach me the
need for an education and he didthat because most of the people
I was working with were maybehigh school grads and there's
nothing wrong with that, butjust that I didn't want to work
at the back of a conveyor beltthe rest of my life.
But there's issues there thatleaders often really aren't in
(26:56):
touch with or don't give enoughcredence to.
I think that when you'reinteracting with the frontline
employees, you learn.
Dr. William Attaway (27:05):
I love that .
I think learning to ask theright questions and listening
these are two of the mostunderutilized tools in a
leader's tool bag, but when youleverage them, when you use them
, it's amazing what you learn,particularly from the frontlines
.
So, so true, you're thinkingabout the books that you've
learned from.
Maybe it's a classic, maybeit's a newer one, but is there
(27:26):
one that you would recommend tothe leaders who are listening?
Hey, this one had an impact onme.
Dr. Paul White (27:33):
Yeah, there are lots, obviously, but one that I
just keep coming back to is onecalled Integrity by Henry Cloud.
I love that book and I tellpeople the first chapter is
worth the price of the bookbecause he uses this image of a
boat creating two wakes right.
One is the wake of impact onpeople and the other is getting
(27:54):
things done and gold.
Yes, and he gives the imagethat you can get things done,
get things done but run overpeople.
You got, you know, a wake ofsort of body parts behind you
and unfortunately, you know, Ithink our culture leans that way
.
But just integrity in the titleis not so much about being
(28:17):
honest and truthful but havingintegration of your life and who
you are, and dealing both withpeople and tasks, and so I find
that a good book, just as a nicefoundational principle.
Dr. William Attaway (28:35):
That is a great read, and his newer one,
trust.
I just finished not long agoand, man, that one really hit me
hard, you know, I mean I loveCloud.
I've learned from him fordecades now, but how to
recognize when trust is brokenand learn how to rebuild it
(28:57):
relationally and when it shouldbe rebuilt and when it shouldn't
my goodness, what a phenomenalteacher and writer.
I love that, so thanks forsharing that.
That's so, so good.
So, leading a business of thesize that you have, there are
always obstacles, there arealways challenges, there are
always things that could demandyour attention at any given
(29:18):
moment.
Dr. Paul White (29:20):
Ours is perfect, I'm sure, I'm sure.
Dr. William Attaway (29:21):
Oh, ours is perfect, I'm sure, I'm sure.
Dr. Paul White (29:24):
No challenges, no problem, it's just been up
and, to the right, the wholejourney right, that's right,
that's right, cash is just sortof it comes out of the sky and
floats down on the boat, soanyway.
Dr. William Attaway (29:38):
Let's just say hypothetically, let's say
there was a challenge or anobstacle.
Yeah, thinking across thelandscape, and you see the whole
board as the leader Thinkingacross the board.
If I had the ability to snap myfingers and solve one problem
in your business, what would youwant that to be?
Dr. Paul White (29:59):
Well, for me, being honest, is that it's the
issue of succession and movingforward.
I don't plan to retire full-timeanytime in the near future, but
I would like to work a littleless and there's certain roles
and responsibilities that as asmall business owner because we
(30:21):
really have a small team, weonly have four employees Now we
got lots of other team membersout there but as far as just
part of the direct part of theorganization, being able to hand
off certain roles of runningthe business so I can continue
to speak and write and so forththat I enjoy and comes fairly
(30:44):
easy for me.
And, and you know, you can beintentional and we've been
intentional, but there is justit's.
It takes a lot of time andeffort and energy and things
change over time, you know, Imean the economy and the culture
and so forth, and so, um, justbeing able to if you want to
snap your fingers, go ahead, man.
And I find, as I talk to myfriends, I had breakfast with a
(31:12):
friend yesterday.
It had the same issue, totallydifferent industry, but just
being able to identify and findthat person to step in and
develop that process, that's thecore issue for us right now.
That's good.
Dr. William Attaway (31:30):
And succession takes so much
intentionality and I watch somany senior leaders get to the
point where they do want to stepback.
But succession takes a lot ofplanning Right back.
But succession takes a lot ofplanning and without that
preparation and theintentionality that you bring to
that, so often you're trying tocatch up and you're in a
catch-up season.
So I love that you brought thatout.
Thank you for that, dr White.
(31:52):
This has been such a greatconversation and we could go for
another hour easily.
I know and continue to diveinto this.
But I know our listeners aregoing to want to stay connected
to you and continue to dive intothis.
But I just I know our listenersare going to want to stay
connected to you and continue tolearn more about you and more
about the five languages ofappreciation in the workplace.
How can they take this?
How can they apply this intheir business?
(32:13):
How can they apply this withtheir team?
What are some next steps forthem?
How can they connect with you?
What are some ways they cantake a next step?
Dr. Paul White (32:20):
Yeah, I think the best thing is let me just
give you an email address thatthey can write me and I'll send
some resources.
I'll send a sample of ourassessment and the group summary
, and so the email is yesdrpaulat gmailcom.
So yes, d-r-p-a-u-l at gmailcom, and then just put your name or
(32:43):
the name of the podcast in thesubject line and then I'll send
sample reports of that we werewritten about in the New York
Times, of work that we've donewith a mining company which you
wouldn't see as being the mosthotbed for appreciation, but how
(33:04):
we helped the culture there.
And I'll see what else I caninclude there for your team,
maybe a discount code for thebook as well.
So, yeah, I think the assessmentis key because finding out how
somebody wants to be appreciated, if you ask them, it's sort of
a weird question.
It's like I don't know, tell methanks, you know, finding out
how somebody wants to beappreciated, if you ask them,
it's sort of a weird question.
It's like I don't know, tell methanks, you know.
So you don't get much.
(33:25):
But being able to do that andwe've kept the cost of the
assessment low so that you knoworganizations like Caterpillar
and Miller Coors and Pepsi areusing it with frontline
employees, which is encouragingto them and learning how to
build a culture of appreciation.
(33:45):
So, yeah, that's the yes, drPaul at GMO would be the best
way.
Dr. William Attaway (33:50):
Perfect, we'll have all those links in
the show notes.
Cool, dr Paul.
Thank you for your generositytoday and your kindness in
sharing so freely from yourjourney and about what your
research is uncovering and howit can impact so many people.
Dr. Paul White (34:03):
You bet.
Thanks for having me.
It is such an honor today to have Dr Paul
White on the podcast.
Dr White is a psychologist,author, speaker and consultant
who makes work relationshipswork.
For the last 20 years he'simproved numerous businesses,
government agencies andnonprofit organizations by
helping them to reduce the levelof cynicism and negative
(00:23):
communication within theworkplace, eliminate
supervisors' frustration fromnot knowing how to effectively
encourage their staff, learn howto communicate authentic
appreciation versus thatgoing-through-the-motions
recognition, and understand andsuccessfully manage the stress
level experienced in today'sdemanding environment.
(00:45):
Dr White is the co-author ofthe book the Five Languages of
Appreciation in the Workplace,written with Dr Gary Chapman,
author of the number one NewYork Times bestseller, the Five
Love Languages.
Based on their extensiveresearch and expertise, dr White
and Dr Chapman have developed aunique way for organizations to
(01:06):
motivate their employees thatleads to increased job
satisfaction, higher employeeperformance and enhanced levels
of trust.
Their motivating byappreciation inventory and
appreciation at work trainingresources have been used by
numerous corporations, collegesand universities, medical
(01:27):
facilities, schools, nonprofitorganizations and government
agencies.
Dr White, I'm so glad you'rehere.
Thanks for being on the show.
Intro video (01:39):
Hey, thanks for having me.
William Glad to be here.
Welcome to Catalytic Leadership, the podcast designed to help
leaders intentionally grow andthrive here is your host author
and leadership and executivecoach, Dr William Attaway.
Dr. William Attaway (02:05):
I would love to start with you sharing a
little bit of your story withour listeners, particularly
around your journey and yourdevelopment as a leader.
Dr. Paul White (02:09):
How, did you get started?
Well, it sort of depends whichstarting point.
But I'm a psychologist bytraining and for a lot of my
career I focused on evaluatingstudents that have learning
difficulties, adhd and dyslexiaand that.
But I grew up in the context ofa family-owned business outside
of Kansas City and some friendsof mine knew of that and I'm a
(02:30):
little bit more business-mindedthan most psychologists, and
they kept running into familyissues as they consulted with
businesses, because 85% of allthe companies in the US are
family-owned.
And so I started working as afamily coach with successful
family businesses across thecountry dealing with family
issues, largely around businesssuccession and wealth transfer.
(02:53):
And in the midst of that I wasin North Carolina talking with
the father and CEO of a companyand asked him you know, how's
the sort of plan going of thesuccession?
He said it's going well, myson's stepping up, I think it'll
work.
And I walk across the hall andasked the son the same question
and he said this is a disaster,it's never going to work, I
(03:15):
can't ever please my dad, andwhich I could understand.
And but at the same time mywife and I were reading the Five
Love Languages by Dr Chapmanand I thought I wonder if this
might be applicable in familybusinesses.
So I pursued Dr Chapman, tookme a year to get through to him
(03:36):
and finally met with him andpitched the idea and we started
working on the project of sortof transferring the concepts of
the five love languages to workand you know, appreciation
seemed to be the main conceptand then developed the online
assessment which we've had over450,000 people take, developed a
(03:58):
training process and then otherbooks as well, and that's what
I do now.
Dr. William Attaway (04:28):
And then other books as well, and that's
what I do now, and so I enjoy itand get to learn a lot about
that large.
What are some of the thingsthat you've learned as you've
done this research?
Are there things that havesurprised you?
Dr. Paul White (04:34):
Well, you know.
So the book originally came outin 2011.
We wrote it I think we wrote itin 2014, and then 2019, 2023.
And so there's been lessonsalong the way.
One of the first lessons was westarted out focusing on leaders
and managers, teaching them howto communicate appreciation to
their team members, but quicklylearned that employees want to
(04:57):
know how to show appreciation totheir colleagues and also they
value being appreciated by theircoworkers, and so we sort of
switched up the model fromfocusing just on leaders to
teaching team members how toshow authentic appreciation to
one another, and that was reallya key piece, because that's
(05:17):
sort of what makes it sing.
It's too much responsibilityjust for leaders to have on
their shoulders, to have to showappreciation to everybody on
their team.
So that was a lesson.
Also, over time, we've learnedthat there are generational
differences, you know, and thatjust knowing a person's language
of appreciation and there arefive, they're the same in name
(05:40):
as the five love languages wordsof affirmation, quality time,
acts of service, tangible giftsand physical touch, which is an
interesting one in our culture,not so much in others, but just
knowing the language reallyisn't sufficient that there are
quite differences of action.
So words is probably the mostobvious one is that some people
(06:05):
you know like to be called up infront of a group, sort of like
an employee recognition.
You know programs recognized infront of a big group, but we
found that at least 40% of theworkforce absolutely do not want
to go up in front of a largegroup and it's actually a
negative for them, and so if youjust do that for everybody, you
actually aren't accomplishingyour goal.
(06:27):
So there's that.
Also.
There's differences betweenquality time.
Those of us that are a littlebit older tend to focus on
focused attention from ourmanager or supervisor.
It makes us feel valued.
For younger workers, I tellolder managers, just because you
have a team member that hasquality time as their language
(06:47):
doesn't mean they want to havetime with you.
You may be wonderful, butthey're focused on their peer
relationships and hanging outwith their colleagues.
Our assessments in ninedifferent languages now, and
just cross-cultural differencestoo, that GIFs really don't
(07:10):
carry a lot of weight as far asencouraging people at a personal
level, and that less than 10%of employees really want to be
shown appreciation through GIFgifts and they prefer the other
languages.
Dr. William Attaway (07:27):
So just some lessons like that.
You know, when I first heardyou talk about this we met at a
conference several months agoand when I first heard you talk
about this, that surprised me,because so many companies and
organizations have theserecognition programs, or you
know they're focused all aroundgifts, gift cards, gift
certificates.
You know they're focused allaround gifts, gift cards, gift
certificates.
You know, maybe a plaque orsomething like that, and that
(07:52):
was such a small percentage ofpeople who were motivated by
that.
And yet that's the number onething I see, particularly in the
corporate world.
Dr. Paul White (07:59):
Right, yeah, and it's interesting, there's sort
of a symbiotic, maybe parasitic,relationship between HR
professionals and reward andrecognition companies.
I'm a straightforward talkingMidwesterner, but that's all
right, just that.
It's sort of easy to do.
(08:21):
I mean you get points and allthis and you turn it in and the
gift you don't even give thegift.
The person chooses their owngift.
It's sort of like at mybirthday saying, oh Paul, what
did you get?
Thanks for the birthday gift.
I mean it doesn't have a lot ofmeaning.
But also I mean the rewardrecognition companies.
(08:43):
That's how they make theirmoney right, because they skim
off the top of the cost thatthey charge you versus what it
costs them.
And so, whereas our model canbe grown over an organization,
but it's in a different way inthat we train teams and people,
(09:04):
so most reward recognitioncompanies say you know, we don't
really want to deal with thepeople aspect, we just want to
do it via, you know, platformsand technology.
Dr. William Attaway (09:17):
Absolutely.
You make a distinction betweenrecognition and appreciation.
Would you flesh that out alittle bit for our listeners?
Dr. Paul White (09:27):
Yeah, you know, initially when I came into this,
I came in sort of the side door, not being part of HR and that
kind of stuff, and I said, youknow, as we did research, we
found that, you know, thingsweren't working because employee
engagement continues to be lowand turnover is high.
(09:47):
And I said, you know, thisrecognition thing isn't working.
And the HR people said, yeah,we know, but we don't know what
else to do.
So but recognition really isabout performance.
It's, you know, reaching goals,doing your work well, and
that's good.
Oh, my sorry.
(10:09):
What happens is that recognitionis good for performance.
I mean, it started in the 50sand 60s and has developed well,
and so we want people to answerthe phone cheerfully, we want
them to get reports done on time.
The problem is that recognitiontends to only touch the top 10
or 15 percent of anyorganization.
(10:31):
So you've got this big middlegroup of people 50 to 60 percent
of team lack of feeling valuedand appreciated as one of the
main reasons that they'releaving, and so you sort of are
(10:57):
setting yourself up for thisrevolving door and we believe
that appreciation can be for youknow, doing work well, but it
also includes just the personthat employees are people, that
we have value beyond just whatwe produce.
We're not just production units, but we have characteristics
and qualities that are important, not really directly related to
(11:18):
performance.
Personally, I like to work withcheerful people more than you
know grumpy people.
I really enjoy your laugh,you've got a great laugh.
I've got a team member thatjust she's, you know, sort of
bright and cheery and comes inand smiles and it doesn't have
anything to do with herperformance, but she sort of
lightens the room when she comesin, you know.
(11:39):
And so there's that.
And also we can appreciatepeople for things not related to
work.
I mean that maybe when yourteam members is training for a
half marathon, you say, wow, bob, I'm just super impressed with
your self-discipline to, youknow, to train and make this
happen.
Or maybe a team member who'sreally committed to her kids and
(12:01):
say you know, maria, I'm justimpressed with how much you love
your kids and you're committedto them, you know, is that about
work?
No, is it about her?
Yes.
Does that build a sense ofconnection and loyalty?
Absolutely, and so, and moreand more.
I mean we're seeing highestlevels of loneliness reported by
employees, especially youngermales.
(12:22):
We're also seeing a sense ofdisconnectedness.
You know, partly with remotehybrid work, and we, through our
appreciation training, becausewe do it with team members, we
help create connectedness.
That then increases peoplestaying.
And we've got lots of researchin our book 50 research
(12:44):
citations showing it improvesproductivity, profitability,
customer ratings, all that kindof stuff.
Dr. William Attaway (12:53):
It's such a different way of thinking about
this, and that's one of thethings that I loved when I first
heard you talk about it.
It's a different way ofthinking about it, but it's
actually data-driven.
This isn't just saying well,you know, it's a theory, we
think this is what's working.
We, you know, we feel it in ourgut.
No, this is research data.
And again, a sample of 450,000people.
(13:14):
This isn't just like we picked10 people and built this whole
thing on what we learned.
Dr. Paul White (13:23):
Yeah, yeah, and I tell you know I mean, one of
the misconceptions leaders haveabout appreciation is that the
goal is just to make people feelgood and yeah that's.
We hope that that happens.
But really the goal is tocreate a more functional,
healthy organization, becausewhen people feel valued and
appreciated organization becausewhen people feel valued and
appreciated, things go better.
I mean, I use the image of oilin a car engine.
(13:46):
If you don't have oil, there'sfriction, there's heat, takes
more energy to get things doneand we see appreciation as sort
of the oil in the machine of theorganization that helps team
members work together better.
There's less conflict overstupid little things like you
know whether they you know whatsize their monitor is or where
they got a window or theirschedule or anything, and it
(14:08):
allows the time and energy ofpeople within the organization
to focus on the mission of theorganization rather than these
secondary side issues.
Dr. William Attaway (14:17):
You know, when I took the motivating by
appreciation inventory thesesecondary side issues you know,
when I took the motivating byappreciation inventory, it
indicated that my language ofappreciation is words of
affirmation, which is not asurprise because, having taken
the love language inventory some20 plus years ago, it's the
same thing and my wife and Ihave done this together and
learned a lot about our marriagethrough that, so it didn't
(14:38):
surprise me with this inventory.
But words of affirmation in theworkplace looks a little bit
different than it does in amarriage or in the home.
This is.
The most of the people in theinventory like the largest
percentage, I should say hadwords of affirmation as their
language of appreciation.
How would you describe that?
(14:59):
What does that look like whenit's lived out and what are some
things people need to avoidsaying?
Dr. Paul White (15:05):
Yeah.
So first of all, yeah, words ofaffirmation is the single
largest language of appreciationchosen by people, but it's less
than half of employees.
So if you're only using words,you're missing over half of your
team.
But the latest data shows 44%of employees have that and it's
(15:25):
different in that one.
I think the biggest mistakepeople make is that they're
vague.
They say you know, glad you'reon the team.
Good job, you know way to gothat kind of stuff, glad you're
on the team, good job, you knowway to go that kind of stuff.
And we actually did a poll andfound that that phrase, good job
is one of the ways people don'twant to hear, because it's so
(15:48):
vague in general that you knowanybody can say it doesn't take
any really time or energy tocreate.
And the key is to be specificand we teach a model of use a
person's name.
We like to hear a name and ifyou're writing it, spell it
correctly, because it doesn'tfeel real personal if you
misspell their name.
That's true.
Be specific about what youvalue, either about them or what
(16:12):
they've done.
And third, why it's important,either to you, to your
organization or to your client.
So it might be.
Brian, thanks for getting yourreports done and in on time to
me.
That's helpful to me becausethen I can take that along with
the other information and get myreport together without being
stressed.
You know about the deadline toget to my boss, and so be
(16:36):
specific.
So be specific.
You know I'm going to be writinga blog about introversion and
appreciation, because about half, maybe a little under half, of
people in the world areintroverts, meaning specifically
that communicating andinteracting with people drains
(16:59):
them emotionally.
You can actually be a shyintrovert.
You can be an outgoingintrovert.
It's just that it drains you Umand so to show appreciation
face to face, verbally uh, foran introvert is is more of a
mountain than it is for for meas an extrovert.
And so one of the nice waysabout words is that you can do
(17:20):
it through writing.
Right, and in the old days itwas a handwritten note.
You know.
We now know that for youngeremployees, especially 20
something guys, they don'treally give a rip about a
handwritten note.
It's.
It's more about the speed atwhich you get back to them.
If you think about theirculture, that's a pretty fast
moving pace.
And so to give them feedbackabout, you know, either a task
(17:46):
that they've done or somethingthat you noticed within the
first day or two is moreimportant than handwriting
something.
Get it to them in a week orlater, because then it's just in
history for them.
So it doesn't always have to beface-to-face in it, but it
really does need to be specific.
Dr. William Attaway (18:08):
That's really great advice and very
tactical, and I hope ourlisteners are capturing.
This is very practical stuffthat you can take and apply.
This is not just theory, thisis not just something up in the
clouds, but this is somethingyou can take and go.
This is not just theory, thisis not just something up in the
clouds, but this is somethingyou can take and go use with
your team now, this week, and Ihope that you will so.
44% words of affirmation whatis the next largest gift that
(18:33):
you see in the workplace?
Dr. Paul White (18:35):
Yeah.
The next one is quality time,and that's about 26%, so one out
of every four people, and, likeI said, it differs across
generations largely that forsome people it is focused
attention, because time reallyis our most valued resource now,
and so getting individual timeand focused attention helps a
(18:56):
person feel valued.
But for others it's doing thingstogether with their colleagues,
whether that's working togetheron a project or just being able
to hang out and have a sense ofcamaraderie, because, again,
research has shown, people feelpretty alone at work and
disconnected, and in fact we'vedone research over the years,
(19:21):
even pre COVID, with remoteemployees and hybrid employees.
And how do you showappreciation, like even quality
time, when you're not in thesame place?
You know, and the answer tothat is you set up a time to
talk to them because you don'thave those chance encounters,
you don't see them in the breakroom or coming in from the
(19:42):
parking lot or whatever, and soyou're proactive, but also that
the communication is about themas a person.
It's not just checking in abouttheir project and what they're
working on, but it's the kind ofthing that you know they used
to call water cooler chat youknow where you know you talk
about like I just heard on theradio that the Indiana Pacers
(20:04):
upset you know Oklahoma City inthe first game of the NBA.
You know you chat about that, oryou know something's going on.
You know you're coaching yourkids soccer team and you know
they ask about that or just talkabout the weather kinds of
things.
So it's creating a personalconnection, not just talking
(20:29):
about work.
Dr. William Attaway (20:30):
That does get challenging when it comes to
remote teams.
You know I've led remote teamsnow for almost a decade and it's
just so incredibly differentand you have to be so much more
intentional as you're takingthis and beginning to apply it
and a lot of our listeners leadremote teams, sometimes from all
over the world.
As you're thinking aboutcross-cultural people,
(20:54):
cross-cultural team members, arethere things you need to be
mindful of when thinking aboutappreciation in that type of a
context?
Dr. Paul White (21:02):
Yeah, you know, it's interesting.
A few years ago I was engagedby one of the big tech companies
to try to help a remoteinternational team learn how to
communicate appreciation withone another, and one of the key
factors is that they had nevermet each other in person and it
really was sort of like a taskforce team that comes together
(21:23):
for a while and I said we cantry, but I'm not sure it's going
to work, because, from my pointof view, appreciation really is
based on a relationship.
You can recognize somebody forperformance and a task, that's
fine, but to try to appreciatesomebody for who they are, when
you really haven't spent anytime, it just feels weird.
You usually miss the mark, andso I think you have to be
(21:48):
careful about that.
One of the key things that we'velearned is that, like part of
my team is remote, is that we'llhave a team meeting and part
either part of the team meetingor some actual the whole team
meeting is just about catchingup with one another.
What's going on in their lives,and is it productive?
Uh, from one point of view, youknow, uh, your eos, people may
(22:12):
say no, but, but on the otherhand, it's.
It creates relationalconnection and when we are
connected we understand eachother better, we communicate
better and, you know, you avoidsort of those miscommunications
that then wind up having to dealwith this problem down there.
(22:34):
So ultimately I think it'sworth it to take the time to do
that.
Dr. William Attaway (22:39):
I love that .
I love that.
I completely agree.
I think that when you see, whenpeople feel seen as an actual
3D human being instead of as acog in the machine of the
business, you know, instead ofjust as what they do, but
they're seen as a person, theylean in.
They lean in and I have seenthis increased retention on
(23:00):
teams which in turn, alwaystranslates to the bottom line,
because we know high churn onteam members always translates
to high churn with clients andall of that impacts the bottom
line.
So everything you're talkingabout really does have a bottom
line reflection at the end ofthe day, absolutely.
Dr. Paul White (23:18):
Yeah, yeah, and I mean the cost of.
I mean there's several researchstudies that, depending on the
level of the position, it's at aminimum a two times the salary
of the position, is the cost ofthe turnover and it goes up to
five and 10 times the higher upin the organization you are.
So it's critical to payattention to that.
Dr. William Attaway (23:43):
I think this topic is one that is worth
diving into for every one of ourlisteners, and I'm going to
encourage you to pick up thisbook the Five Languages of
Appreciation in the Workplace.
We'll have a link in the shownotes.
I want you to check this out.
I want you to learn as much asyou can about how to apply this
inside your team, inside yourbusiness, and we're going to
talk about some ways that youcan do that in just a minute.
(24:07):
Dr White, I want to turn to youfor just a second.
You know you're leading a verysuccessful business.
You're leading a team that isfocused on pouring into so many
different companies, so manydifferent organizations, and
trying to help them to getbetter, trying to help them to
learn how to do this, and thatripples that impacts so many
(24:28):
people.
Leading at the level that youlead at requires a lot of you.
How do you stay on top of yourgame?
How do you level up with thenew skills, the new leadership
skills that your team and yourbusiness and your clients are
going to need you to have in thedays to come?
Dr. Paul White (24:49):
You know, there's a couple of levels to
that question.
One is I have to take care ofmyself, because if I don't take
care of myself, it doesn'tmatter what I know, I'm not
going to relate to other peoplevery well.
So over time I've learned whatis renewing to me.
I mean, I love nature, I lovemusic, I love solitude more than
(25:12):
I used to.
I'm an outgoing guy, but mywork life is people and words
and so, man, I love to fish andgo hike and that kind of thing,
and so I've got to keep thatgoing as well as time with my
wife and my marriage.
And then, secondly, you know,not every great idea is a new
(25:33):
one, or, conversely, not everynew idea is a great one.
There are a lot of classic booksin leadership and business that
are helpful still, and, yeah,we got to keep up with the new
(25:53):
stuff and I try to do that.
I'm overwhelming at times.
But also I get input from myfriends, my colleagues, who are
business leaders and sort oflisten to what they're reading
and what do you find impactful,and sort of let them filter
through some stuff, versus metrying to read everything that
(26:13):
comes out and so getrecommendations from them.
That's real helpful and part ofit also is staying in touch
with the frontline worker.
I mean, if you talk to leadersall the time, you get leaders
perspectives, but that is notthe same as somebody that's on
the floor.
Let me tell you my family thefactory and you know it wasn't.
(26:35):
I told my dad, you know one ofhis goals was to teach me the
need for an education and he didthat because most of the people
I was working with were maybehigh school grads and there's
nothing wrong with that, butjust that I didn't want to work
at the back of a conveyor beltthe rest of my life.
But there's issues there thatleaders often really aren't in
(26:56):
touch with or don't give enoughcredence to.
I think that when you'reinteracting with the frontline
employees, you learn.
Dr. William Attaway (27:05):
I love that .
I think learning to ask theright questions and listening
these are two of the mostunderutilized tools in a
leader's tool bag, but when youleverage them, when you use them
, it's amazing what you learn,particularly from the frontlines
.
So, so true, you're thinkingabout the books that you've
learned from.
Maybe it's a classic, maybeit's a newer one, but is there
(27:26):
one that you would recommend tothe leaders who are listening?
Hey, this one had an impact onme.
Dr. Paul White (27:33):
Yeah, there are lots, obviously, but one that I
just keep coming back to is onecalled Integrity by Henry Cloud.
I love that book and I tellpeople the first chapter is
worth the price of the bookbecause he uses this image of a
boat creating two wakes right.
One is the wake of impact onpeople and the other is getting
(27:54):
things done and gold.
Yes, and he gives the imagethat you can get things done,
get things done but run overpeople.
You got, you know, a wake ofsort of body parts behind you
and unfortunately, you know, Ithink our culture leans that way
.
But just integrity in the titleis not so much about being
(28:17):
honest and truthful but havingintegration of your life and who
you are, and dealing both withpeople and tasks, and so I find
that a good book, just as a nicefoundational principle.
Dr. William Attaway (28:35):
That is a great read, and his newer one,
trust.
I just finished not long agoand, man, that one really hit me
hard, you know, I mean I loveCloud.
I've learned from him fordecades now, but how to
recognize when trust is brokenand learn how to rebuild it
(28:57):
relationally and when it shouldbe rebuilt and when it shouldn't
my goodness, what a phenomenalteacher and writer.
I love that, so thanks forsharing that.
That's so, so good.
So, leading a business of thesize that you have, there are
always obstacles, there arealways challenges, there are
always things that could demandyour attention at any given
(29:18):
moment.
Dr. Paul White (29:20):
Ours is perfect, I'm sure, I'm sure.
Dr. William Attaway (29:21):
Oh, ours is perfect, I'm sure, I'm sure.
Dr. Paul White (29:24):
No challenges, no problem, it's just been up
and, to the right, the wholejourney right, that's right,
that's right, cash is just sortof it comes out of the sky and
floats down on the boat, soanyway.
Dr. William Attaway (29:38):
Let's just say hypothetically, let's say
there was a challenge or anobstacle.
Yeah, thinking across thelandscape, and you see the whole
board as the leader Thinkingacross the board.
If I had the ability to snap myfingers and solve one problem
in your business, what would youwant that to be?
Dr. Paul White (29:59):
Well, for me, being honest, is that it's the
issue of succession and movingforward.
I don't plan to retire full-timeanytime in the near future, but
I would like to work a littleless and there's certain roles
and responsibilities that as asmall business owner because we
(30:21):
really have a small team, weonly have four employees Now we
got lots of other team membersout there but as far as just
part of the direct part of theorganization, being able to hand
off certain roles of runningthe business so I can continue
to speak and write and so forththat I enjoy and comes fairly
(30:44):
easy for me.
And, and you know, you can beintentional and we've been
intentional, but there is justit's.
It takes a lot of time andeffort and energy and things
change over time, you know, Imean the economy and the culture
and so forth, and so, um, justbeing able to if you want to
snap your fingers, go ahead, man.
And I find, as I talk to myfriends, I had breakfast with a
(31:12):
friend yesterday.
It had the same issue, totallydifferent industry, but just
being able to identify and findthat person to step in and
develop that process, that's thecore issue for us right now.
That's good.
Dr. William Attaway (31:30):
And succession takes so much
intentionality and I watch somany senior leaders get to the
point where they do want to stepback.
But succession takes a lot ofplanning Right back.
But succession takes a lot ofplanning and without that
preparation and theintentionality that you bring to
that, so often you're trying tocatch up and you're in a
catch-up season.
So I love that you brought thatout.
Thank you for that, dr White.
(31:52):
This has been such a greatconversation and we could go for
another hour easily.
I know and continue to diveinto this.
But I know our listeners aregoing to want to stay connected
to you and continue to dive intothis.
But I just I know our listenersare going to want to stay
connected to you and continue tolearn more about you and more
about the five languages ofappreciation in the workplace.
How can they take this?
How can they apply this intheir business?
(32:13):
How can they apply this withtheir team?
What are some next steps forthem?
How can they connect with you?
What are some ways they cantake a next step?
Dr. Paul White (32:20):
Yeah, I think the best thing is let me just
give you an email address thatthey can write me and I'll send
some resources.
I'll send a sample of ourassessment and the group summary
, and so the email is yesdrpaulat gmailcom.
So yes, d-r-p-a-u-l at gmailcom, and then just put your name or
(32:43):
the name of the podcast in thesubject line and then I'll send
sample reports of that we werewritten about in the New York
Times, of work that we've donewith a mining company which you
wouldn't see as being the mosthotbed for appreciation, but how
(33:04):
we helped the culture there.
And I'll see what else I caninclude there for your team,
maybe a discount code for thebook as well.
So, yeah, I think the assessmentis key because finding out how
somebody wants to be appreciated, if you ask them, it's sort of
a weird question.
It's like I don't know, tell methanks, you know, finding out
how somebody wants to beappreciated, if you ask them,
it's sort of a weird question.
It's like I don't know, tell methanks, you know.
So you don't get much.
(33:25):
But being able to do that andwe've kept the cost of the
assessment low so that you knoworganizations like Caterpillar
and Miller Coors and Pepsi areusing it with frontline
employees, which is encouragingto them and learning how to
build a culture of appreciation.
(33:45):
So, yeah, that's the yes, drPaul at GMO would be the best
way.
Dr. William Attaway (33:50):
Perfect, we'll have all those links in
the show notes.
Cool, dr Paul.
Thank you for your generositytoday and your kindness in
sharing so freely from yourjourney and about what your
research is uncovering and howit can impact so many people.
Dr. Paul White (34:03):
You bet.
Thanks for having me.
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