August 12, 2025 • 35 mins
Scaling an agency beyond seven figures demands more than hard work — it requires clarity, leverage, and systems that don’t break under pressure. In this episode, I’m joined by Richard Levy, Founder and CEO of Sophera Marketing, who brings decades of global marketing and leadership experience. We talk about how to use AI for agency growth in ways that actually move the numbers your C-suite cares about, how to prove marketing ROI without guesswork, and how to lead distributed teams across time zones without losing momentum. Richard shares practical ways to eliminate bottlenecks, align marketing strategy with revenue, and harness AI for smarter decisions — not just faster ones. If you want to scale with focus, protect your energy, and elevate your team’s performance, you’ll find clear, actionable strategies here you can put to work right away.
📚 Books Mentioned
- Playing to Win by A.G. Lafley and Roger L. Martin
- Good Strategy Bad Strategy by Richard Rumelt
- Good to Great by Jim Collins
You can connect with Richard on LinkedIn or email him at RichardLevy@sopheramarketing.co.uk. He shares regular insights on marketing, leadership, and business strategy, and he’s always open to a good conversation, even if you see things differently.
Join Dr. William Attaway on the Catalytic Leadership podcast as he shares transformative insights to help high-performance entrepreneurs and agency owners achieve Clear-Minded Focus, Calm Control, and Confidence.
- Free 30-Minute Discovery Call:
Ready to elevate your business? Book a free 30-minute discovery call with Dr. William Attaway and start your journey to success.
- Special Offer:
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dr. William Attaway (00:00):
It's an honor today to have Richard Levy
on the podcast.
Richard's the founder and CEOof Sophera Marketing, with a
wealth of experience in drivingcommercial success across the
globe.
He has extensive experience inbuilding and enhancing brands
through every marketing channel.
He's led high-performing teamsin the UK, emea and North
(00:22):
America for Illuminis companieslike GE, santander, first
National and MoneyGram.
He's also worked with a numberof UK-based companies, including
Tesco, halfords, homebase andBritish Gas.
Richard's expertise spansdigital marketing, brand
management, crm analytics,research strategy development,
(00:44):
social media, agency managementand marketing communications.
Richard, I'm so glad you'rehere.
Thanks for being on the show.
Richard Levy (00:52):
That was me.
That was some introduction.
Thank you very much forinviting me onto the show.
Dr. William Attaway (00:58):
I've been looking forward to this
conversation.
Intro (01:03):
Welcome to Catalytic Leadership, the podcast designed
to help leaders intentionallygrow and thrive.
Here is your host author andleadership and executive coach,
dr William Attaway.
Dr. William Attaway (01:20):
I would love to start with you sharing a
little bit of your story withour listeners, Richard,
particularly around your journeyand your development as a
leader.
How did you get started?
Richard Levy (01:33):
Yeah, it's a good question.
It was a long time ago, or itseems a long time ago, that I
did what a lot of people do inthe UK is you graduate from
university and I did businessadministration and the strange
thing is that if you do law oraccountancy or finance, then the
(01:58):
path is relatively clear foryou.
When you do a more generalistcourse like business, of course
you come out and there's notsuch a clear path.
But I joined a very large bankin the uk, a spanish bank but
based in the uk at the timesantander on their marketing
graduate scheme, um, and youspend six months in a branch
(02:22):
working on the front line whichwhich is incredibly educational
actually, to go and see what'sreally happening and then six
months in a communicationsdepartment advertising and then
six months in a products area.
And then I joined there andthen from then on stayed
(02:44):
primarily in financial servicesbut had a far more curious mind
to take me into other industries.
So I was in places like GE, forexample, which is again that's
GE Capital at the time, and thatwas almost like going to
university every day.
The caliber of people at GE wasphenomenal.
(03:06):
It was just at the end of theJack Welsh era and then Jeff
Immelt came in, so there wasquite a lot of transformation
going on there.
And then MoneyGram, where I ranEurope and their digital arm,
and then a company called RFXwhich was based in Australia.
So I sort of got thisinternational experience from
(03:30):
the UK, america and thenAustralia.
You'll see that I don't speakmore than English, so
consequently, I sort of tried tostick to the countries that I
didn't have to learn anotherlanguage.
Having said that, I think twoof the biggest leadership
challenges as that was youroriginal question that I've had
(03:50):
is one is managing teams thatwere in Australia.
When I'm based in the UK,there's a 11 hour time
difference, so your timetogether is either very early in
my morning or very late andalso getting to know people and
understanding it and those watercooler moments and the everyday
life moments that in leadership, if you're going to be
(04:13):
authentic, getting to knowpeople as people is really
difficult.
The second bit was managingpeople in countries like Russia,
where the culture is very, verydifferent from the UK, and so
it's a really interestinglearning experience and I
actually think the culture inthe US and the UK is fairly
(04:36):
different as well.
So when you go internationally,you see, the idea that everyone
is like you is is nonsense andyou actually learn very quickly.
You're going to have to adaptto them, rather than the other
way around.
I remember being in a meetingin italy, as an example, where
literally you know, there waseight, eight, nine people and
(04:58):
they're speaking italian becauseI'm the only one that doesn't
speak english.
And you feel quite.
It's quite an uncomfortableposition because everyone's
adjusting for you and yet you'rethe one who's trying to build
your credibility.
It's an interesting one.
Dr. William Attaway (05:14):
You know so many things you touched on.
There are things that I dealwith clients and I help them
walk through all over the world.
You know, culture matters and Ithink so often we think about
the competency of team membersthat we're looking to hire or
that we're managing.
We look at their competency, welook at their character, we
look at the chemistry of theteam and all those things are
(05:36):
important.
But every team, every company,has a culture and that culture
exists inside of the largerculture and where it's located,
where the team is located, andyou ignore that to your peril.
Like as you have led andmanaged remote teams from all
over and worked with clientsfrom all over.
(05:57):
Like can you think of anexample of a time when, man, I
just thought this and we ranheadlong into a brick wall?
Richard Levy (06:08):
Yes is the answer.
And, interestingly, if I lookat the US market as an example,
when I manage teams in the US,let me talk about the UK, us and
Australia, because there'sthree English speaking areas, so
english culture tends to beeveryone being desperately
polite to each other, as we arein england, um, never quite
(06:32):
saying what we mean.
You know, sort of going aroundthe houses etc.
When you, when I then ended upworking in dallas, I found it
very direct.
People just said what felt, andthat sort of level of small
talk and what did you do on theweekend almost doesn't exist.
It's very much like let's getdown to business and let's do it
(06:54):
now.
And a real I was going to usethe word subservient, so I don't
know if that's quite the rightword but a hierarchy where, if
the ceo said you go left, well,everyone goes left.
And I think in the uk the ceogoes left, everyone goes.
Why are we going left?
So we sort of question it more.
(07:14):
Where in the us I certainlyfound it was much more led at
the top and that you followedinstruction and you didn't
really question it.
And then I felt in australia, asI alluded to before, I think
the biggest challenge inaustralia was that this time
difference is a real killerbecause when I was managing
(07:35):
teams in the us, about 2 pmeveryone will come online.
So you've got from two to saysix or seven.
You can get four or five hoursin every day.
Yeah, in australia their 7 pmis my 8 am, so if I start at 7
am my time, it's 6 pm their time, so they're looking to leave.
You know that the day's done.
(07:57):
They've been there long enoughand yet you're coming in and
saying, okay, tell me about thedays, and it's difficult, and
then also managing conflictbetween them and someone else in
an Australian office.
When you're not there, you'renot seeing the personalities,
you're getting a lot ofdifferent views.
It's really really difficult andthe only way around it and I'm
(08:19):
taking away the practicality isto spend as much time as you can
actually over there in theoffice in Sydney getting to know
people and understanding it,and ideally you'd spend a month
or so really integratingyourself so you can get an idea
of the picture.
Because you were right to saythat not just every company has
its own culture, but everyoffice has its own culture.
(08:40):
That's right, and you're on theoutside of that because you're
on the other side of the worldand so either you have people
who you have a relationship withalready or you somehow can find
um commonality that you somehowcan really blend, or I think
it's a little bit struggle bothways, and probably that was
where, when you said that I hita brick wall, I had to really
(09:03):
get very introspective and ask alot of people for advice on how
would you manage this situation, because it wasn't easy and it
was an interesting learning,that's good.
Dr. William Attaway (09:16):
You have been in the marketing world for
a couple of decades now, yeah,and with somebody who has been
in a field that long, you haveseen a lot of things come and go
, a lot of shiny objects comeand go, a lot of trends come and
go.
And I'm curious, as you thinkback, what are some things that
(09:39):
pop out at you as some keytakeaways from your tenure in
marketing thus, far.
Richard Levy (09:45):
Yeah, it's a really, really good question.
When I first started themeasurement, the effectiveness
there's this awful quote inmarketing that goes back many
decades, which is you know, Iwaste 50% of my marketing budget
.
I just don't know which 50% itis, and what that does is
suggest that there's a sort oflack of accountability.
(10:07):
And if you look at marketing,in a lot of businesses the
biggest expense tends to be thepeople, right.
Then there might be an ITbudget and then there's a
marketing budget, or there mayeven be a people and then
marketing.
So the IT and the marketing area bit interchangeable, the
point being it tends to be thesecond or third largest budget
traditionally in in companies.
(10:28):
With that comes aresponsibility.
When I first started, we wouldmeasure the effectiveness.
We'd put an advert in apublication.
It would have a code next to itand we'd say when you ring up
this number, quote this code.
And then everyone would bewriting down on their
spreadsheet how many times thecode was quoted and then we
(10:49):
could say, oh, you know, someonequoted it 15 times, so we'd
know we had 15 responses to thatadvert on that particular day.
So really unscientific.
We've now gone to a very, verydifferent extreme, and let's use
digital marketing as an examplewhere I don't think we've
mastered as an industry a commonattribution model that
(11:12):
satisfies everyone.
So, for example, how did I hearabout your podcast?
Right?
It's very possible that afriend said to me listen to this
podcast, it's really good.
I then go onto your website, doa Google search, I then click
and we then have a conversationon a podcast.
(11:34):
If you're looking at thatstatistically, you're going to
say online conversion, right?
He did a bit of Google search,found where I was clicked and
went through tick.
The reality was it was actuallynothing to do with the online
element, really.
That just facilitated it.
It was the fact someone hadtold me about it.
(11:54):
So we haven't got thismeasurement correct.
Um, econometrics is coming inin the uk.
My personal view is anyone who'sspending any significant amount
of money needs to have somekind of model that suggests
what's happening, because we'removing.
I think we might be moving outof it, but we've been in an era
(12:15):
where everyone wants to measureeverything, and that's good
because it brings peopleaccountability, but also it
allows certain things to gounchecked.
So I'll give you one moreexample, if I may, if I, as
owner of Saphira Marketing on mybrand term have to pay Google
(12:40):
to have my advert showing onSaphira Marketing.
So if someone then has to typeinto fear of marketing into
google, click on my advertbecause it's the first banner
they see and then they go on tohire me to help them with their
marketing.
Do I say to myself it was theadvert that won, so my
acquisition cost is really lowbecause obviously it's my own
(13:02):
brand term and the relevancy andall that.
Or do I say to myself, actually, whatever I spent on that I
wasted, because they're typedinto fear of marketing anyway
and so quite clearly they werelooking for me and they would
have found me through organicsearch.
But what's going to happen is,in my experience, is most
marketeers will say this isbrilliant because brand search
(13:23):
is traditionally quite a lowcost of acquisition.
You could feed that back to thebusiness and say look how well
we're doing.
And someone should say, yeah,but what about the
incrementality?
What happens if you weren'tdoing it?
And there's now companies inthe UK who are testing doing
non-brand search.
So they don't cover their brandat all and they're not seeing
much difference in the traffic.
(13:43):
So therefore the argument wouldbe that by measuring it, we're
measuring the wrong thing.
We're measuring how it happens,we're not measuring the
incrementality, and I thinkthat's a serious problem we have
.
Dr. William Attaway (13:55):
Yeah, that's fascinating.
How do you build a strategy inthe midst of that type of a
context?
Richard Levy (14:04):
You first realize that there's something I heard
the other day from a very cleverstrategist that said to me
audience before content, which Ilove, because what it's saying
is know your audience and thenmake the content relevant to
them, don't build the contentand then feed it to the audience
.
Yeah, so it was just a nicelittle abc of audience content
(14:24):
and I felt that when you'retalking to the CFO or the CEO,
clearly this is going to have tobe a numerical conversation.
They're not interested in brandawareness, brand equity, I
don't know right, brand recall,however much jargon you and I,
(14:45):
no doubt, could spend hourstalking about, right, they're
not interested.
What they're interested in istop line, bottom line, customer
lifetime value, cost ofacquisition, financials,
financial, which is correct intheir position.
So any strategy you build and Ireally say this, I teach at
cambridge, actually it's one ofthe things um, I teach that the
(15:14):
students there is you have tounderstand, right, the
commercial value of what you'redoing, because if you can't
translate what you're doing intopounds and pence or dollars and
dimes in your example, I thinkyou're really, really going to
struggle to gain credibility.
So that strategy has to startwith what are we trying to
achieve as a businessfinancially, and how can I
contribute towards that?
Now, we as marketeers may notbe responsible for setting the
(15:35):
price, so I would hope we have asay in it.
We may not be responsible forcertain aspects of the customer
journey, but in the bits we areresponsible for or what we can
influence, the strategy has toultimately feed to a commercial
outcome, which sounds reallyobvious.
But the amount of marketeers Ispeak to and I say, how much
(15:55):
revenue did you generate lastyear with this?
And they look at you in aslightly panicked way and said
but we increased brand awareness.
That's a problem.
That's a problem.
Dr. William Attaway (16:09):
Well, that's not what the CEO is
interested in, right?
Like you say, they're lookingat the bottom line.
Richard Levy (16:15):
And that's why, as an industry, if you look at the
amount of marketing people inthe boardroom, it's diminishing
because we struggle as anindustry to talk in the only
language that people really wantto hear, which is showing me
the commercial impact of whatyou've done.
So it's a challenge.
So, strategically, I always sayto people start with what we're
trying to achieve as a businessand work our way back.
(16:36):
And if you can go into theboardroom and talk about I
increased the customer lifetimevalue, I bought in 100 different
customers, this will be theirvalue.
This is what it cost us, truly,cost us incrementally.
Instead of customers stayingwith us two years, they're going
to stay with us four yearsthose terms and you can then
equate to some financial outcome.
You're going to have yourC-suite position because this is
(16:59):
someone people want to listento and they feel this guy's
really helping my business.
I always say set the strategy,because if you're talking to the
CEO or CFO, what do they wantto hear?
And you shouldn't go that farwrong.
But it's difficult because asmarketers we don't really want
to admit we can't measureeverything, we don't want to
admit that some things we trydon't work.
(17:20):
And also I find that whenyou're setting strategy, things
outside of your control alsowill come in and might provide
you with headwinds.
Things can be good or mightprovide you with difficulties.
You don't know what thecompetition are going to do.
You don't know if there's goingto be a new entrant.
You don't know if someone'sgoing to slash their price.
(17:41):
You don't know if someone'sgoing to open up a store next to
your most successful one.
There are these variables thatof course, will influence a lot.
A very good point.
Dr. William Attaway (17:58):
You know, one of the biggest conversations
that I hear these days inmarketing world is that around
the rise of AI, and you look atthe landscape with the context
of the decades you've spent inthe field.
How do you see AI?
What do you see it as?
Richard Levy (18:08):
I think we're underestimating it, which is a
bold claim, which probably willbe in Marketing Week, which is
the UK publication of marketing.
If I say that we'reunderestimating it, we're
underestimating it because thereare certain revolutions that
(18:29):
come along every X amount ofyears.
You've got the industrialrevolution, the technological
revolution.
The internet provided arevolution.
It fundamentally changes theway we behave, absolutely, and
AI will do so.
Let me give you an example fromoutside the marketing world,
and then we'll bring it back toour world.
If you go for a knee operationin a year's time, you can either
(18:53):
have a doctor doing it whospent the last 10 years doing it
and knows his or her knowledgeHer knowledge is pretty good, so
this is good for yourconfidence or you could go to a
machine that could look at everyknee operation that you've got
that's ever happened and saythis is what needs to happen and
this will be the recovery timeand this is how long it will
take.
Now you still need that surgeon, probably to guide it and to
(19:14):
explain it to you and to workalongside it.
No-transcript could tell youwhat the solution is and then
can tell you how you're going torecover from it.
So let's now make that aboutmarketing.
(19:36):
Marketing done properly whichis not that common, but done
properly has three stages, whichis diagnose, then set the
strategy and then set thetactics.
The problem is that I havefound and this is a mistake I've
made is that I've gone intointerviews with companies who
want my services and said well,this is what we need to do,
william, we need to spend thenext nine months diagnosing,
(19:58):
then I'll come up with astrategy, then I'll tell you
what the tactics are.
And they said that's reallygood, but we've got about nine
days, not nine months, right?
So you're now worrying me withthis kind of approach.
Right, ai will help with all ofthat because it can do the
(20:18):
groundwork for us.
Now, it will only ever be asgood as the inputs that we put
into it and it will only be asgood as the outputs we take from
it and then amend and changearound.
So I look at it as a sort of80-20 rule, where 80% of it AI
will do for you, but the 10% atthe beginning and the 10% at the
end are the most crucial bits.
Don't be lazy.
(20:39):
That's good, because AI willhallucinate, not understand, get
things wrong, quote sourcesthat don't exist, and also
you've got to put it in yourlanguage.
There's nothing worse than youlook on linkedin and people
write anything.
What a computer wrote thisright.
So you don't want that.
But you think about I wasinvestigating the other day
synthetic research which isbecoming sort of quite big here
(21:01):
in the uk.
I don't know if you come acrossthis as of yet, but the idea
that rather than me going to 2000 people paying a polling
company, getting the rightpeople, I can do it via ai and
they'll build the personas andthey'll look at everything
that's ever been said about thiskind of thing on the market and
then I'll feed them thequestion and it'll take all that
information and come back withthe latest answer.
(21:23):
Now there's there's issues withthat that.
There's issues that how up todate is that?
How reliable is it?
But equally, there's issueswhen you do human research.
You know when people have tofill out 30 questions on a
questionnaire.
By the time they come to number20 I don't mean their
concentration level is what itwas at number 10, right?
People guess people don't know,people just want the incentive
(21:45):
that you're giving them fillingout the questionnaire.
So ai will take all of thataway as well.
So there's limitations butthere's advantages.
So I think when marketers cometo me and say I'm concerned, ai
is going to take my job, I say,well, it won't, as long as you
know how to use it.
So you need to embrace it.
And secondly, when people say,well, all creative will look the
same, I read a study the otherday from the Ehrenberg-Bass
(22:08):
Institute in Australia 71% ofB2B creative is never recorded
by any customer the next day.
So I would say your creative ispretty crap now on the whole.
And if you don't believe me, goand watch TV, right, and then
tell me what you think of theefforts, right, good word.
Therefore, I think we have a lotto gain by something helping us
(22:31):
.
And also, the other thing Ilove about it is, if I'm dealing
with SMEs or entrepreneurs orpeople on their own, it's made
the whole thing much moredemocratic, because the idea
before was that you had to be abig company to be able to afford
a creative to do this work foryou.
Now, gpt image creator if youput in the right input into it
(22:53):
and you have a bit of patience,within 10 minutes you can have
an advert that's probably asgood as a creator would have
made for you in two days andcharged you a few hundred
dollars.
For You've got to put theeffort in before.
Put the effort in before youwill reach.
You know the dividends will berich.
Dr. William Attaway (23:09):
I like what you say there about the 80% and
the 10 and the 10.
I I like what you say thereabout the 80% and the 10 and the
10.
I think that's something thatnot a lot of people are talking
about, and I think that's reallyimportant.
You know, way back in the day,when we were in the early days
of computers, there was a termthat was in vogue then that I
think is going to come back, andthat's GIGO Garbage in, garbage
(23:30):
out.
You put garbage data into theroom-sized computer, you got
garbage results out, and I thinkof AI exactly that way.
If you don't prompt itcorrectly, if you're not careful
crafting the prompts and thenrefining your prompts over time
as you do this, the results aregoing to reflect that, and I
think that's very important 100%.
Richard Levy (23:52):
And let me give you a real example of that.
I did a lecture on Wednesdaytwo days ago to a few hundred
SMEs and I was making the pointthat sounds really simple is
you've got to talk in thelanguage of your customer.
Don't talk in likemarketing-wise.
Don't talk about brandawareness and brand equity, no
one cares.
Talk about customers and sales,right, marketing-wise.
(24:14):
Don't talk about brandawareness and brand equity, no
one cares.
Talk about customers and sales,right.
And I said go on to Gemini,claude, chat, whatever one you
want to use, and just prompt itand say I'm a wedding planner in
Chicago.
I do everything from beginningto end, a little bit about my
business and a little bit aboutthe consumers I'm trying to
attract.
(24:34):
And tell it to search all theforums, reddit, all the chats,
everything online and say whatare the biggest issues people
are finding with weddingplanners in Chicago and tell me
their exact issues in theirlanguage.
That took me one and a halfminutes of my time to think.
So it's not easy one and a halfminutes because it's focused,
(24:57):
but one and a half minutes and Ithen get back this catalog of
sourced language that myconsumers are talking.
So I now know that if I'm awedding planner in chicago, my
website should be answering thequestions that these people are
talking about, because these aretheir concerns.
Yes, yes, so don't worry aboutseo and anything like that.
(25:20):
Just talk in the customer'slanguage and if you do that,
people will naturally find youand you can use ai to do that
for you.
But you've got to have theimagination beforehand to think
this is what I need to do andthen check it afterward.
Does it make sense?
People would say that.
But if you do the 10 and the 10, you're in a great position.
There's no excuse now to have awebsite that doesn't meet the
(25:43):
needs of the customer, becauseyou can find out what the
customer exactly wants from youso well said.
Dr. William Attaway (25:49):
I love that .
Richard, you know your businessand your team and your clients
need you to lead at a higherlevel today than they did five
years ago, and that same thingis going to be true five years
from now.
How do you stay on top of yourgame?
How do you level up with thenew leadership skills that your
(26:11):
team and your business and yourclients are going to need you to
have in the years to come?
Richard Levy (26:18):
A couple of answers to that, if I may.
One is continuous learning.
I think should be part of allof us.
So I've just completed a coupleof courses at London Business
School, london School ofEconomics, one on leadership and
one on marketing.
So those two areas that I sortof thrive in, I'm hoping I know
(26:39):
the latest stuff.
One of the things that I try andthink about about leadership is
you normally have three levels.
You've got upward, sideways andbelow, and most people come in
and think, well, all I have todo is make my boss happy.
But the reality is I heard thisthe other day from someone most
of the people who advocate foryou are not going to be your
(27:01):
boss, they're going to be peoplebelow you and to the side of
you.
And if you want to progress inyour career, your boss is not
enough, usually because otherpeople might challenge it or
other people may support it.
So it's not when I say upwards,I'm not just talking about the
boss, I'm talking about that thelevels plural that sit above
you, the levels that sit acrossyou and the levels that sit
(27:25):
below you.
In a way, managing people belowshould be the easiest because
in theory, in a hierarchicalsituation.
They sort of should listen toyou.
But I feel there's a few thingsthat you can do for all those
levels.
One is build commonality.
What is it that you have incommon on a personal level?
(27:45):
What are they into?
Do they have kids?
Do they have a family?
Do they go to church?
Do they play golf?
Do they running on a saturdaymorning?
What is it?
Get to know people as people,because in the end, we're in a
human game here where peopleultimately buy people, and so
(28:07):
the idea that you can getcommonality is that you're both
dallas cowboy fans, whatever itmay be right that just find
something with everyone aroundyou that there's a little bit
commonality.
If someone mentions theirwife's name, remember the wife's
name.
If they say my daughter's ill,come back a week later, say hey,
how's rebecca doing?
(28:27):
Right, because it shows apersonal, genuine interest.
And I think in leadership nowit's moved away from I tell you
what to do to we work on thingstogether.
The other thing I find inleadership and I used to have a
boss, sarah, who was very goodat this, because I try that if
I'm the most senior person inthe room, I give my opinion last
(28:49):
, because what I don't want todo is give my opinion first and
everyone to say, well, yeah,because he said it, they'll
never say it's because you saidit, but they'll.
And then the other thing is istrying to get people behind you,
and I think it's something likepolitically, where people are
not understanding the vision,where we are going and what are
we trying to achieve.
And if you can break thatvision down into really simple
(29:11):
language that everyoneunderstands and everyone
understands their part in it,you know, if the who.
Let me give an example If yougo to a hotel, the person on the
door who opens the door for you, tells you where to eat that
night, welcomes you friendly,tells you where to park the car
and gives you a tip about how toget theater tickets, that
(29:34):
person has a massive impact onthe experience that you're going
to have at that hotel, and sothe person opening the door is
equally as important as theperson who answered the phone
when you rang up, as theinternet experience when you
booked, as the person inreception, you think about how
many people influence yourjourney, and so when you're
leading, it's really, reallyimportant to bring everyone
(29:57):
together and not be siloed andthink everyone has a role here,
how you know, if you rang up acompany and the person at the
other end of the phone soundedbored, miserable, disinterested,
all that money they spentpromoting their brand is
worthless because he or she onthe phone have just ruined it.
And so I think, from aleadership point of view, we
have to see that bigger picture,we have to see the vision and
(30:20):
we have to make people feel thattheir role in it is important,
because the minute they feelthey're just a cog in a wheel,
everything's tends to, tends togo.
So there's a few tips, um, butit's, it's a race without a
finish line, because you'reabsolutely right saying five
years time, I'd probably give avery different answer.
But I think, if you can deal, ifyou can be a human and you can
(30:42):
listen, I should add thislistening, the most important
skill.
Listen to what's being said andlisten to what's not being said
.
That's right.
And we've all listened.
We've all had conversationswith people where all I feel is
you're waiting for your turn tospeak.
How much longer is this goingto go?
Because I've got my few to say.
And we've all had conversationswith people who truly listen
(31:02):
and reflect and sometimes sayhey, william, can I just read
that back to you Because I'm notsure I understood, but I just
want to make sure I did.
You can't really listen to me.
So lots and lots of differentways you can do it, but have a
vision, understand people as ahuman and learn how to listen, I
think would be three of them.
Dr. William Attaway (31:21):
I love that , richard.
I think that's so intentionaland so purposeful and I think
seeing people as actual 3D humanbeings, not as the cogs I think
that's critical to leading welland I love that you are so
focused on growing in this anddeveloping this and maintaining
(31:41):
that teachable spirit, thatcontinual learning posture.
So, as you were in that posture, is there a book that has made
a big difference in your journeythat you would recommend to the
leaders who are listening?
Richard Levy (31:50):
Oh, that's a really, really interesting
question, Certainly on themarketing front.
Certainly on the marketingfront.
Well, there is a book, actuallyit's called it's by Lafferty,
who used to head up ProcterGamble.
Playing to Win, yes, and hetalks about the strategy behind
(32:10):
winning companies.
So that's really interesting.
There's also can I go with twoothers, please?
I'm not really answering yourquestion, please.
Also, um, can I go with twoothers?
I sort of please reallyanswering your question, um, but
, but, but the two others wasthere's a book called good
strategy, bad strategy, whichtalks about how to lead
strategically and what strategyreally looks like and how you
(32:31):
tell how you bring companieswith you and how you bring the
people with you, and I thinkthat's really, really
interesting.
So that's one.
And the third one is an olderbook, but but you're probably
familiar with it, from Good toGreat, which looks at how good
companies can get.
It's brilliant.
Dr. William Attaway (32:47):
One of my favorites.
Richard Levy (32:48):
Yeah, and again it talks about the importance of
leadership and charisma andvision and treating people as
individuals.
All three of those books areinteresting because none of them
say I am a leadership book, butall three of them you'd see,
(33:08):
woven into it is that if youcan't lead people or you can't
lead an organization, you're notgoing to win.
I was also interested just inyour comment there about
treating people as people,because I think, as people tend
to get higher and higher incompanies, the temptation is to
look at spreadsheets withpeople's names on it and costs.
Suddenly that human elementdisappears because you're
(33:31):
thinking, oh my goodness, I'vegot to cut costs.
That's right, and I think it'svery important that we as
leaders don't fall into thattrick and also understand that
there's human capital here,which is not just a number on a
spreadsheet.
It's wider than that.
Dr. William Attaway (33:45):
That's well said.
Very well said, Richard.
We could keep talking and wecould go an hour, two hours,
three hours.
I think there's so much herethat I have picked up in this
conversation and I'm so gratefulto you for sharing so
generously here.
I know our listeners are goingto want to stay connected to you
and continue to learn more fromyou and more about what you're
(34:08):
doing.
What's the best way for them todo?
Richard Levy (34:10):
that Well, firstly , thank you for your words.
It's been a real privilege tobe on with you today, so thank
you for the opportunity.
Um, truly appreciate it.
Um, two ways really.
I'm on linkedin, um, I'mrichard levy, levy y1, so just
the sort of number one.
Apparently there's anotherrichard levy who got there
before I did so I've had to takerichard levy one.
(34:32):
Um, or, and I write quite a loton linkedin and it's mainly my
thoughts on the world or thingsI see happening, or marketing
stuff, or business stuff orleadership, and I try and post
quite a lot of quotes or videosthat particularly resonated.
So please do follow.
And the other thing isobviously email me, richard Levy
(34:52):
, at sephiramarketingcouk, andyou know I'll always engage back
.
And also, if you don't agreeand you want to challenge back,
please do so.
You know life should be aboutthere's more than one version of
the truth.
So anyone who disagrees or seesthings from a different angle,
(35:13):
embrace that and let's have aconversation about it.
Love it.
Dr. William Attaway (35:15):
We'll have all those links in the show
notes, Richard.
Thank you for your.
It's an honor today to have Richard Levy
on the podcast.
Richard's the founder and CEOof Sophera Marketing, with a
wealth of experience in drivingcommercial success across the
globe.
He has extensive experience inbuilding and enhancing brands
through every marketing channel.
He's led high-performing teamsin the UK, emea and North
(00:22):
America for Illuminis companieslike GE, santander, first
National and MoneyGram.
He's also worked with a numberof UK-based companies, including
Tesco, halfords, homebase andBritish Gas.
Richard's expertise spansdigital marketing, brand
management, crm analytics,research strategy development,
(00:44):
social media, agency managementand marketing communications.
Richard, I'm so glad you'rehere.
Thanks for being on the show.
Richard Levy (00:52):
That was me.
That was some introduction.
Thank you very much forinviting me onto the show.
Dr. William Attaway (00:58):
I've been looking forward to this
conversation.
Intro (01:03):
Welcome to Catalytic Leadership, the podcast designed
to help leaders intentionallygrow and thrive.
Here is your host author andleadership and executive coach,
dr William Attaway.
Dr. William Attaway (01:20):
I would love to start with you sharing a
little bit of your story withour listeners, Richard,
particularly around your journeyand your development as a
leader.
How did you get started?
Richard Levy (01:33):
Yeah, it's a good question.
It was a long time ago, or itseems a long time ago, that I
did what a lot of people do inthe UK is you graduate from
university and I did businessadministration and the strange
thing is that if you do law oraccountancy or finance, then the
(01:58):
path is relatively clear foryou.
When you do a more generalistcourse like business, of course
you come out and there's notsuch a clear path.
But I joined a very large bankin the uk, a spanish bank but
based in the uk at the timesantander on their marketing
graduate scheme, um, and youspend six months in a branch
(02:22):
working on the front line whichwhich is incredibly educational
actually, to go and see what'sreally happening and then six
months in a communicationsdepartment advertising and then
six months in a products area.
And then I joined there andthen from then on stayed
(02:44):
primarily in financial servicesbut had a far more curious mind
to take me into other industries.
So I was in places like GE, forexample, which is again that's
GE Capital at the time, and thatwas almost like going to
university every day.
The caliber of people at GE wasphenomenal.
(03:06):
It was just at the end of theJack Welsh era and then Jeff
Immelt came in, so there wasquite a lot of transformation
going on there.
And then MoneyGram, where I ranEurope and their digital arm,
and then a company called RFXwhich was based in Australia.
So I sort of got thisinternational experience from
(03:30):
the UK, america and thenAustralia.
You'll see that I don't speakmore than English, so
consequently, I sort of tried tostick to the countries that I
didn't have to learn anotherlanguage.
Having said that, I think twoof the biggest leadership
challenges as that was youroriginal question that I've had
(03:50):
is one is managing teams thatwere in Australia.
When I'm based in the UK,there's a 11 hour time
difference, so your timetogether is either very early in
my morning or very late andalso getting to know people and
understanding it and those watercooler moments and the everyday
life moments that in leadership, if you're going to be
(04:13):
authentic, getting to knowpeople as people is really
difficult.
The second bit was managingpeople in countries like Russia,
where the culture is very, verydifferent from the UK, and so
it's a really interestinglearning experience and I
actually think the culture inthe US and the UK is fairly
(04:36):
different as well.
So when you go internationally,you see, the idea that everyone
is like you is is nonsense andyou actually learn very quickly.
You're going to have to adaptto them, rather than the other
way around.
I remember being in a meetingin italy, as an example, where
literally you know, there waseight, eight, nine people and
(04:58):
they're speaking italian becauseI'm the only one that doesn't
speak english.
And you feel quite.
It's quite an uncomfortableposition because everyone's
adjusting for you and yet you'rethe one who's trying to build
your credibility.
It's an interesting one.
Dr. William Attaway (05:14):
You know so many things you touched on.
There are things that I dealwith clients and I help them
walk through all over the world.
You know, culture matters and Ithink so often we think about
the competency of team membersthat we're looking to hire or
that we're managing.
We look at their competency, welook at their character, we
look at the chemistry of theteam and all those things are
(05:36):
important.
But every team, every company,has a culture and that culture
exists inside of the largerculture and where it's located,
where the team is located, andyou ignore that to your peril.
Like as you have led andmanaged remote teams from all
over and worked with clientsfrom all over.
(05:57):
Like can you think of anexample of a time when, man, I
just thought this and we ranheadlong into a brick wall?
Richard Levy (06:08):
Yes is the answer.
And, interestingly, if I lookat the US market as an example,
when I manage teams in the US,let me talk about the UK, us and
Australia, because there'sthree English speaking areas, so
english culture tends to beeveryone being desperately
polite to each other, as we arein england, um, never quite
(06:32):
saying what we mean.
You know, sort of going aroundthe houses etc.
When you, when I then ended upworking in dallas, I found it
very direct.
People just said what felt, andthat sort of level of small
talk and what did you do on theweekend almost doesn't exist.
It's very much like let's getdown to business and let's do it
(06:54):
now.
And a real I was going to usethe word subservient, so I don't
know if that's quite the rightword but a hierarchy where, if
the ceo said you go left, well,everyone goes left.
And I think in the uk the ceogoes left, everyone goes.
Why are we going left?
So we sort of question it more.
(07:14):
Where in the us I certainlyfound it was much more led at
the top and that you followedinstruction and you didn't
really question it.
And then I felt in australia, asI alluded to before, I think
the biggest challenge inaustralia was that this time
difference is a real killerbecause when I was managing
(07:35):
teams in the us, about 2 pmeveryone will come online.
So you've got from two to saysix or seven.
You can get four or five hoursin every day.
Yeah, in australia their 7 pmis my 8 am, so if I start at 7
am my time, it's 6 pm their time, so they're looking to leave.
You know that the day's done.
(07:57):
They've been there long enoughand yet you're coming in and
saying, okay, tell me about thedays, and it's difficult, and
then also managing conflictbetween them and someone else in
an Australian office.
When you're not there, you'renot seeing the personalities,
you're getting a lot ofdifferent views.
It's really really difficult andthe only way around it and I'm
(08:19):
taking away the practicality isto spend as much time as you can
actually over there in theoffice in Sydney getting to know
people and understanding it,and ideally you'd spend a month
or so really integratingyourself so you can get an idea
of the picture.
Because you were right to saythat not just every company has
its own culture, but everyoffice has its own culture.
(08:40):
That's right, and you're on theoutside of that because you're
on the other side of the worldand so either you have people
who you have a relationship withalready or you somehow can find
um commonality that you somehowcan really blend, or I think
it's a little bit struggle bothways, and probably that was
where, when you said that I hita brick wall, I had to really
(09:03):
get very introspective and ask alot of people for advice on how
would you manage this situation, because it wasn't easy and it
was an interesting learning,that's good.
Dr. William Attaway (09:16):
You have been in the marketing world for
a couple of decades now, yeah,and with somebody who has been
in a field that long, you haveseen a lot of things come and go
, a lot of shiny objects comeand go, a lot of trends come and
go.
And I'm curious, as you thinkback, what are some things that
(09:39):
pop out at you as some keytakeaways from your tenure in
marketing thus, far.
Richard Levy (09:45):
Yeah, it's a really, really good question.
When I first started themeasurement, the effectiveness
there's this awful quote inmarketing that goes back many
decades, which is you know, Iwaste 50% of my marketing budget
.
I just don't know which 50% itis, and what that does is
suggest that there's a sort oflack of accountability.
(10:07):
And if you look at marketing,in a lot of businesses the
biggest expense tends to be thepeople, right.
Then there might be an ITbudget and then there's a
marketing budget, or there mayeven be a people and then
marketing.
So the IT and the marketing area bit interchangeable, the
point being it tends to be thesecond or third largest budget
traditionally in in companies.
(10:28):
With that comes aresponsibility.
When I first started, we wouldmeasure the effectiveness.
We'd put an advert in apublication.
It would have a code next to itand we'd say when you ring up
this number, quote this code.
And then everyone would bewriting down on their
spreadsheet how many times thecode was quoted and then we
(10:49):
could say, oh, you know, someonequoted it 15 times, so we'd
know we had 15 responses to thatadvert on that particular day.
So really unscientific.
We've now gone to a very, verydifferent extreme, and let's use
digital marketing as an examplewhere I don't think we've
mastered as an industry a commonattribution model that
(11:12):
satisfies everyone.
So, for example, how did I hearabout your podcast?
Right?
It's very possible that afriend said to me listen to this
podcast, it's really good.
I then go onto your website, doa Google search, I then click
and we then have a conversationon a podcast.
(11:34):
If you're looking at thatstatistically, you're going to
say online conversion, right?
He did a bit of Google search,found where I was clicked and
went through tick.
The reality was it was actuallynothing to do with the online
element, really.
That just facilitated it.
It was the fact someone hadtold me about it.
(11:54):
So we haven't got thismeasurement correct.
Um, econometrics is coming inin the uk.
My personal view is anyone who'sspending any significant amount
of money needs to have somekind of model that suggests
what's happening, because we'removing.
I think we might be moving outof it, but we've been in an era
(12:15):
where everyone wants to measureeverything, and that's good
because it brings peopleaccountability, but also it
allows certain things to gounchecked.
So I'll give you one moreexample, if I may, if I, as
owner of Saphira Marketing on mybrand term have to pay Google
(12:40):
to have my advert showing onSaphira Marketing.
So if someone then has to typeinto fear of marketing into
google, click on my advertbecause it's the first banner
they see and then they go on tohire me to help them with their
marketing.
Do I say to myself it was theadvert that won, so my
acquisition cost is really lowbecause obviously it's my own
(13:02):
brand term and the relevancy andall that.
Or do I say to myself, actually, whatever I spent on that I
wasted, because they're typedinto fear of marketing anyway
and so quite clearly they werelooking for me and they would
have found me through organicsearch.
But what's going to happen is,in my experience, is most
marketeers will say this isbrilliant because brand search
(13:23):
is traditionally quite a lowcost of acquisition.
You could feed that back to thebusiness and say look how well
we're doing.
And someone should say, yeah,but what about the
incrementality?
What happens if you weren'tdoing it?
And there's now companies inthe UK who are testing doing
non-brand search.
So they don't cover their brandat all and they're not seeing
much difference in the traffic.
(13:43):
So therefore the argument wouldbe that by measuring it, we're
measuring the wrong thing.
We're measuring how it happens,we're not measuring the
incrementality, and I thinkthat's a serious problem we have
.
Dr. William Attaway (13:55):
Yeah, that's fascinating.
How do you build a strategy inthe midst of that type of a
context?
Richard Levy (14:04):
You first realize that there's something I heard
the other day from a very cleverstrategist that said to me
audience before content, which Ilove, because what it's saying
is know your audience and thenmake the content relevant to
them, don't build the contentand then feed it to the audience
.
Yeah, so it was just a nicelittle abc of audience content
(14:24):
and I felt that when you'retalking to the CFO or the CEO,
clearly this is going to have tobe a numerical conversation.
They're not interested in brandawareness, brand equity, I
don't know right, brand recall,however much jargon you and I,
(14:45):
no doubt, could spend hourstalking about, right, they're
not interested.
What they're interested in istop line, bottom line, customer
lifetime value, cost ofacquisition, financials,
financial, which is correct intheir position.
So any strategy you build and Ireally say this, I teach at
cambridge, actually it's one ofthe things um, I teach that the
(15:14):
students there is you have tounderstand, right, the
commercial value of what you'redoing, because if you can't
translate what you're doing intopounds and pence or dollars and
dimes in your example, I thinkyou're really, really going to
struggle to gain credibility.
So that strategy has to startwith what are we trying to
achieve as a businessfinancially, and how can I
contribute towards that?
Now, we as marketeers may notbe responsible for setting the
(15:35):
price, so I would hope we have asay in it.
We may not be responsible forcertain aspects of the customer
journey, but in the bits we areresponsible for or what we can
influence, the strategy has toultimately feed to a commercial
outcome, which sounds reallyobvious.
But the amount of marketeers Ispeak to and I say, how much
(15:55):
revenue did you generate lastyear with this?
And they look at you in aslightly panicked way and said
but we increased brand awareness.
That's a problem.
That's a problem.
Dr. William Attaway (16:09):
Well, that's not what the CEO is
interested in, right?
Like you say, they're lookingat the bottom line.
Richard Levy (16:15):
And that's why, as an industry, if you look at the
amount of marketing people inthe boardroom, it's diminishing
because we struggle as anindustry to talk in the only
language that people really wantto hear, which is showing me
the commercial impact of whatyou've done.
So it's a challenge.
So, strategically, I always sayto people start with what we're
trying to achieve as a businessand work our way back.
(16:36):
And if you can go into theboardroom and talk about I
increased the customer lifetimevalue, I bought in 100 different
customers, this will be theirvalue.
This is what it cost us, truly,cost us incrementally.
Instead of customers stayingwith us two years, they're going
to stay with us four yearsthose terms and you can then
equate to some financial outcome.
You're going to have yourC-suite position because this is
(16:59):
someone people want to listento and they feel this guy's
really helping my business.
I always say set the strategy,because if you're talking to the
CEO or CFO, what do they wantto hear?
And you shouldn't go that farwrong.
But it's difficult because asmarketers we don't really want
to admit we can't measureeverything, we don't want to
admit that some things we trydon't work.
(17:20):
And also I find that whenyou're setting strategy, things
outside of your control alsowill come in and might provide
you with headwinds.
Things can be good or mightprovide you with difficulties.
You don't know what thecompetition are going to do.
You don't know if there's goingto be a new entrant.
You don't know if someone'sgoing to slash their price.
(17:41):
You don't know if someone'sgoing to open up a store next to
your most successful one.
There are these variables thatof course, will influence a lot.
A very good point.
Dr. William Attaway (17:58):
You know, one of the biggest conversations
that I hear these days inmarketing world is that around
the rise of AI, and you look atthe landscape with the context
of the decades you've spent inthe field.
How do you see AI?
What do you see it as?
Richard Levy (18:08):
I think we're underestimating it, which is a
bold claim, which probably willbe in Marketing Week, which is
the UK publication of marketing.
If I say that we'reunderestimating it, we're
underestimating it because thereare certain revolutions that
(18:29):
come along every X amount ofyears.
You've got the industrialrevolution, the technological
revolution.
The internet provided arevolution.
It fundamentally changes theway we behave, absolutely, and
AI will do so.
Let me give you an example fromoutside the marketing world,
and then we'll bring it back toour world.
If you go for a knee operationin a year's time, you can either
(18:53):
have a doctor doing it whospent the last 10 years doing it
and knows his or her knowledgeHer knowledge is pretty good, so
this is good for yourconfidence or you could go to a
machine that could look at everyknee operation that you've got
that's ever happened and saythis is what needs to happen and
this will be the recovery timeand this is how long it will
take.
Now you still need that surgeon, probably to guide it and to
(19:14):
explain it to you and to workalongside it.
No-transcript could tell youwhat the solution is and then
can tell you how you're going torecover from it.
So let's now make that aboutmarketing.
(19:36):
Marketing done properly whichis not that common, but done
properly has three stages, whichis diagnose, then set the
strategy and then set thetactics.
The problem is that I havefound and this is a mistake I've
made is that I've gone intointerviews with companies who
want my services and said well,this is what we need to do,
william, we need to spend thenext nine months diagnosing,
(19:58):
then I'll come up with astrategy, then I'll tell you
what the tactics are.
And they said that's reallygood, but we've got about nine
days, not nine months, right?
So you're now worrying me withthis kind of approach.
Right, ai will help with all ofthat because it can do the
(20:18):
groundwork for us.
Now, it will only ever be asgood as the inputs that we put
into it and it will only be asgood as the outputs we take from
it and then amend and changearound.
So I look at it as a sort of80-20 rule, where 80% of it AI
will do for you, but the 10% atthe beginning and the 10% at the
end are the most crucial bits.
Don't be lazy.
(20:39):
That's good, because AI willhallucinate, not understand, get
things wrong, quote sourcesthat don't exist, and also
you've got to put it in yourlanguage.
There's nothing worse than youlook on linkedin and people
write anything.
What a computer wrote thisright.
So you don't want that.
But you think about I wasinvestigating the other day
synthetic research which isbecoming sort of quite big here
(21:01):
in the uk.
I don't know if you come acrossthis as of yet, but the idea
that rather than me going to 2000 people paying a polling
company, getting the rightpeople, I can do it via ai and
they'll build the personas andthey'll look at everything
that's ever been said about thiskind of thing on the market and
then I'll feed them thequestion and it'll take all that
information and come back withthe latest answer.
(21:23):
Now there's there's issues withthat that.
There's issues that how up todate is that?
How reliable is it?
But equally, there's issueswhen you do human research.
You know when people have tofill out 30 questions on a
questionnaire.
By the time they come to number20 I don't mean their
concentration level is what itwas at number 10, right?
People guess people don't know,people just want the incentive
(21:45):
that you're giving them fillingout the questionnaire.
So ai will take all of thataway as well.
So there's limitations butthere's advantages.
So I think when marketers cometo me and say I'm concerned, ai
is going to take my job, I say,well, it won't, as long as you
know how to use it.
So you need to embrace it.
And secondly, when people say,well, all creative will look the
same, I read a study the otherday from the Ehrenberg-Bass
(22:08):
Institute in Australia 71% ofB2B creative is never recorded
by any customer the next day.
So I would say your creative ispretty crap now on the whole.
And if you don't believe me, goand watch TV, right, and then
tell me what you think of theefforts, right, good word.
Therefore, I think we have a lotto gain by something helping us
(22:31):
.
And also, the other thing Ilove about it is, if I'm dealing
with SMEs or entrepreneurs orpeople on their own, it's made
the whole thing much moredemocratic, because the idea
before was that you had to be abig company to be able to afford
a creative to do this work foryou.
Now, gpt image creator if youput in the right input into it
(22:53):
and you have a bit of patience,within 10 minutes you can have
an advert that's probably asgood as a creator would have
made for you in two days andcharged you a few hundred
dollars.
For You've got to put theeffort in before.
Put the effort in before youwill reach.
You know the dividends will berich.
Dr. William Attaway (23:09):
I like what you say there about the 80% and
the 10 and the 10.
I I like what you say thereabout the 80% and the 10 and the
10.
I think that's something thatnot a lot of people are talking
about, and I think that's reallyimportant.
You know, way back in the day,when we were in the early days
of computers, there was a termthat was in vogue then that I
think is going to come back, andthat's GIGO Garbage in, garbage
(23:30):
out.
You put garbage data into theroom-sized computer, you got
garbage results out, and I thinkof AI exactly that way.
If you don't prompt itcorrectly, if you're not careful
crafting the prompts and thenrefining your prompts over time
as you do this, the results aregoing to reflect that, and I
think that's very important 100%.
Richard Levy (23:52):
And let me give you a real example of that.
I did a lecture on Wednesdaytwo days ago to a few hundred
SMEs and I was making the pointthat sounds really simple is
you've got to talk in thelanguage of your customer.
Don't talk in likemarketing-wise.
Don't talk about brandawareness and brand equity, no
one cares.
Talk about customers and sales,right, marketing-wise.
(24:14):
Don't talk about brandawareness and brand equity, no
one cares.
Talk about customers and sales,right.
And I said go on to Gemini,claude, chat, whatever one you
want to use, and just prompt itand say I'm a wedding planner in
Chicago.
I do everything from beginningto end, a little bit about my
business and a little bit aboutthe consumers I'm trying to
attract.
(24:34):
And tell it to search all theforums, reddit, all the chats,
everything online and say whatare the biggest issues people
are finding with weddingplanners in Chicago and tell me
their exact issues in theirlanguage.
That took me one and a halfminutes of my time to think.
So it's not easy one and a halfminutes because it's focused,
(24:57):
but one and a half minutes and Ithen get back this catalog of
sourced language that myconsumers are talking.
So I now know that if I'm awedding planner in chicago, my
website should be answering thequestions that these people are
talking about, because these aretheir concerns.
Yes, yes, so don't worry aboutseo and anything like that.
(25:20):
Just talk in the customer'slanguage and if you do that,
people will naturally find youand you can use ai to do that
for you.
But you've got to have theimagination beforehand to think
this is what I need to do andthen check it afterward.
Does it make sense?
People would say that.
But if you do the 10 and the 10, you're in a great position.
There's no excuse now to have awebsite that doesn't meet the
(25:43):
needs of the customer, becauseyou can find out what the
customer exactly wants from youso well said.
Dr. William Attaway (25:49):
I love that .
Richard, you know your businessand your team and your clients
need you to lead at a higherlevel today than they did five
years ago, and that same thingis going to be true five years
from now.
How do you stay on top of yourgame?
How do you level up with thenew leadership skills that your
(26:11):
team and your business and yourclients are going to need you to
have in the years to come?
Richard Levy (26:18):
A couple of answers to that, if I may.
One is continuous learning.
I think should be part of allof us.
So I've just completed a coupleof courses at London Business
School, london School ofEconomics, one on leadership and
one on marketing.
So those two areas that I sortof thrive in, I'm hoping I know
(26:39):
the latest stuff.
One of the things that I try andthink about about leadership is
you normally have three levels.
You've got upward, sideways andbelow, and most people come in
and think, well, all I have todo is make my boss happy.
But the reality is I heard thisthe other day from someone most
of the people who advocate foryou are not going to be your
(27:01):
boss, they're going to be peoplebelow you and to the side of
you.
And if you want to progress inyour career, your boss is not
enough, usually because otherpeople might challenge it or
other people may support it.
So it's not when I say upwards,I'm not just talking about the
boss, I'm talking about that thelevels plural that sit above
you, the levels that sit acrossyou and the levels that sit
(27:25):
below you.
In a way, managing people belowshould be the easiest because
in theory, in a hierarchicalsituation.
They sort of should listen toyou.
But I feel there's a few thingsthat you can do for all those
levels.
One is build commonality.
What is it that you have incommon on a personal level?
(27:45):
What are they into?
Do they have kids?
Do they have a family?
Do they go to church?
Do they play golf?
Do they running on a saturdaymorning?
What is it?
Get to know people as people,because in the end, we're in a
human game here where peopleultimately buy people, and so
(28:07):
the idea that you can getcommonality is that you're both
dallas cowboy fans, whatever itmay be right that just find
something with everyone aroundyou that there's a little bit
commonality.
If someone mentions theirwife's name, remember the wife's
name.
If they say my daughter's ill,come back a week later, say hey,
how's rebecca doing?
(28:27):
Right, because it shows apersonal, genuine interest.
And I think in leadership nowit's moved away from I tell you
what to do to we work on thingstogether.
The other thing I find inleadership and I used to have a
boss, sarah, who was very goodat this, because I try that if
I'm the most senior person inthe room, I give my opinion last
(28:49):
, because what I don't want todo is give my opinion first and
everyone to say, well, yeah,because he said it, they'll
never say it's because you saidit, but they'll.
And then the other thing is istrying to get people behind you,
and I think it's something likepolitically, where people are
not understanding the vision,where we are going and what are
we trying to achieve.
And if you can break thatvision down into really simple
(29:11):
language that everyoneunderstands and everyone
understands their part in it,you know, if the who.
Let me give an example If yougo to a hotel, the person on the
door who opens the door for you, tells you where to eat that
night, welcomes you friendly,tells you where to park the car
and gives you a tip about how toget theater tickets, that
(29:34):
person has a massive impact onthe experience that you're going
to have at that hotel, and sothe person opening the door is
equally as important as theperson who answered the phone
when you rang up, as theinternet experience when you
booked, as the person inreception, you think about how
many people influence yourjourney, and so when you're
leading, it's really, reallyimportant to bring everyone
(29:57):
together and not be siloed andthink everyone has a role here,
how you know, if you rang up acompany and the person at the
other end of the phone soundedbored, miserable, disinterested,
all that money they spentpromoting their brand is
worthless because he or she onthe phone have just ruined it.
And so I think, from aleadership point of view, we
have to see that bigger picture,we have to see the vision and
(30:20):
we have to make people feel thattheir role in it is important,
because the minute they feelthey're just a cog in a wheel,
everything's tends to, tends togo.
So there's a few tips, um, butit's, it's a race without a
finish line, because you'reabsolutely right saying five
years time, I'd probably give avery different answer.
But I think, if you can deal, ifyou can be a human and you can
(30:42):
listen, I should add thislistening, the most important
skill.
Listen to what's being said andlisten to what's not being said
.
That's right.
And we've all listened.
We've all had conversationswith people where all I feel is
you're waiting for your turn tospeak.
How much longer is this goingto go?
Because I've got my few to say.
And we've all had conversationswith people who truly listen
(31:02):
and reflect and sometimes sayhey, william, can I just read
that back to you Because I'm notsure I understood, but I just
want to make sure I did.
You can't really listen to me.
So lots and lots of differentways you can do it, but have a
vision, understand people as ahuman and learn how to listen, I
think would be three of them.
Dr. William Attaway (31:21):
I love that , richard.
I think that's so intentionaland so purposeful and I think
seeing people as actual 3D humanbeings, not as the cogs I think
that's critical to leading welland I love that you are so
focused on growing in this anddeveloping this and maintaining
(31:41):
that teachable spirit, thatcontinual learning posture.
So, as you were in that posture, is there a book that has made
a big difference in your journeythat you would recommend to the
leaders who are listening?
Richard Levy (31:50):
Oh, that's a really, really interesting
question, Certainly on themarketing front.
Certainly on the marketingfront.
Well, there is a book, actuallyit's called it's by Lafferty,
who used to head up ProcterGamble.
Playing to Win, yes, and hetalks about the strategy behind
(32:10):
winning companies.
So that's really interesting.
There's also can I go with twoothers, please?
I'm not really answering yourquestion, please.
Also, um, can I go with twoothers?
I sort of please reallyanswering your question, um, but
, but, but the two others wasthere's a book called good
strategy, bad strategy, whichtalks about how to lead
strategically and what strategyreally looks like and how you
(32:31):
tell how you bring companieswith you and how you bring the
people with you, and I thinkthat's really, really
interesting.
So that's one.
And the third one is an olderbook, but but you're probably
familiar with it, from Good toGreat, which looks at how good
companies can get.
It's brilliant.
Dr. William Attaway (32:47):
One of my favorites.
Richard Levy (32:48):
Yeah, and again it talks about the importance of
leadership and charisma andvision and treating people as
individuals.
All three of those books areinteresting because none of them
say I am a leadership book, butall three of them you'd see,
(33:08):
woven into it is that if youcan't lead people or you can't
lead an organization, you're notgoing to win.
I was also interested just inyour comment there about
treating people as people,because I think, as people tend
to get higher and higher incompanies, the temptation is to
look at spreadsheets withpeople's names on it and costs.
Suddenly that human elementdisappears because you're
(33:31):
thinking, oh my goodness, I'vegot to cut costs.
That's right, and I think it'svery important that we as
leaders don't fall into thattrick and also understand that
there's human capital here,which is not just a number on a
spreadsheet.
It's wider than that.
Dr. William Attaway (33:45):
That's well said.
Very well said, Richard.
We could keep talking and wecould go an hour, two hours,
three hours.
I think there's so much herethat I have picked up in this
conversation and I'm so gratefulto you for sharing so
generously here.
I know our listeners are goingto want to stay connected to you
and continue to learn more fromyou and more about what you're
(34:08):
doing.
What's the best way for them todo?
Richard Levy (34:10):
that Well, firstly , thank you for your words.
It's been a real privilege tobe on with you today, so thank
you for the opportunity.
Um, truly appreciate it.
Um, two ways really.
I'm on linkedin, um, I'mrichard levy, levy y1, so just
the sort of number one.
Apparently there's anotherrichard levy who got there
before I did so I've had to takerichard levy one.
(34:32):
Um, or, and I write quite a loton linkedin and it's mainly my
thoughts on the world or thingsI see happening, or marketing
stuff, or business stuff orleadership, and I try and post
quite a lot of quotes or videosthat particularly resonated.
So please do follow.
And the other thing isobviously email me, richard Levy
(34:52):
, at sephiramarketingcouk, andyou know I'll always engage back
.
And also, if you don't agreeand you want to challenge back,
please do so.
You know life should be aboutthere's more than one version of
the truth.
So anyone who disagrees or seesthings from a different angle,
(35:13):
embrace that and let's have aconversation about it.
Love it.
Dr. William Attaway (35:15):
We'll have all those links in the show
notes, Richard.
Thank you for your.
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