December 9, 2025 • 31 mins
If you’re scaling a team and the drag from one low performer is slowing everything down, this conversation will give you the clarity and language you need. I’m joined by Brett Hoogeveen: trained engineer, former healthcare executive, startup investor, and co-founder of Better Culture, a firm trusted by leaders from fast-growing startups to Fortune 500 companies.
We explore the real reason culture becomes a bottleneck as you scale, and why protecting your high performers is one of the fastest ways to build better leaders, elevate team performance, reduce burnout, and remove the friction that keeps your agency from moving at the speed you need.
Brett shares the top-down and bottom-up frameworks his team uses inside hundreds of organizations, including why removing toxic behaviors accelerates growth, how to strengthen manager consistency, and the simple cultural systems that compound into sustainable results. If you’re committed to a healthier, more energized agency in 2026, this episode will give you the playbook.
If you’d like to follow Brett’s work or explore the tools he mentioned, you can connect with him on LinkedIn or visit betterculture.com. He also created a resource for this audience — the People Leader Checklist — available at betterculture.com/catalytic
Join Dr. William Attaway on the Catalytic Leadership podcast as he shares transformative insights to help high-performance entrepreneurs and agency owners achieve Clear-Minded Focus, Calm Control, and Confidence.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dr. William Attaway (00:00):
I'm so excited today to have Brett
Hogaveen on the podcast.
Brett's a trained engineer, aformer healthcare executive, a
startup investor, and theco-founder of Better Culture, a
prominent leadership developmentand technology firm with
clients spanning fromentrepreneurial startups to
Fortune 500 companies.
In the past 10 years, Brett hastrained thousands of leaders
(00:23):
and worked hands-on withhundreds of organizations and
executive teams focused oncreating stronger businesses
through elevated leaders,stronger teams, and more
energized workplace cultures.
An international speaker andcertified speaking professional,
Brett focuses on providingpractical and actionable advice
(00:44):
on leadership, company culture,and the not-so-secret secrets of
becoming successful and happy.
Brad, I'm so glad you're here.
Man, thanks for being on theshow.
I love it.
Thank you for having me.
Intro (01:00):
Welcome to Catalytic Leadership, the podcast designed
to help leaders intentionallygrow and thrive.
Here is your host, author, andleadership and executive coach,
Dr.
William Attaway.
Dr. William Attaway (01:17):
I would love to start with you sharing a
little bit of your story withour listeners.
Brad, I had a couple of thehigh points there.
I'd love for you to shareparticularly around your journey
and your development as aleader.
How'd you get started?
Brett Hoogeveen (01:31):
Boy, you know, I was a numbers kid growing up.
I was uh I was always good atmath, math and science.
And when that's the case andyou don't know what you want to
do in life, every guidancecounselor that you talk to says,
well, maybe you should, youknow, go be an engineer or
something like that.
And I didn't have any betterideas, so I kind of took their
advice.
And I really didn't realize, Igot all the way through college,
(01:53):
my first job.
And even though my father,which is side story, he had
started a company that was uhyear after year voted the best
place to work in in my hometownof Omaha, Nebraska.
Oh, wow.
I didn't really understand howimportant actually where you
work would be uh in my qualityof life.
I kind of thought it was aboutlike, what are you good at?
(02:14):
What, what profession do youwant to pursue?
And it wasn't until I got outin the real world of work that I
realized, oh, actually, I Ithought I like this career, but
I don't like the job I have.
I don't like the company I workfor.
And that was sort of when Irealized that culture matters a
heck of a lot more than Ithought it did.
And that, you know, you coulddo a lot of different jobs in a
(02:34):
lot of different, you know, sortof industries if you work with
great people and for a greatcompany.
And so that's sort of how I gotinterested in leadership and
culture specifically, um, wasthrough firsthand experience.
Dr. William Attaway (02:45):
You know, I love that.
And I think that is so true.
The environment, the culturethat a that a team or a business
organization has is socritical.
And yet, man, I find that it isnot something that is top of
mind, and it's not one of thelights on the dashboard that
business owners and C-suiteleaders are so focused in on
like they are on the profitmargin, right?
(03:07):
Why do you think that is andhow do we deal with that?
Brett Hoogeveen (03:12):
So I think it's because it's it's a little bit
invisible what the impact is.
It's not quite as tangible asyou know, this quarter's sales
numbers, or, you know, uh uhturnover costs or a quality
metric or a customer retentionrate or you know, these things
that that feel like there's anobvious primary connection to
(03:36):
what comp what most businessleaders care about, which is the
bottom line and success andwhat those metrics.
But what people don'tunderstand, I think, is how much
the way that your employeesfeel every day about their job
and about their company andabout the work that they do, how
that's culture, how much thatreally drives all of those
metrics that people care about.
(03:57):
So I I often am helping peopleunderstand that if you'll focus
on culture and helping create anenvironment that people are
more and more excited to be apart of, then all that other
stuff sort of gets a little bitof rocket fuel.
You know, it's easier to makeprogress on all those other
things.
So I don't know why it's notmore obvious to more people, but
that's sort of my mission is tomake it more obvious.
Dr. William Attaway (04:20):
I love that.
So let's let's start for ourlisteners who who maybe haven't
really dived into this before.
How do you define culture?
Brett Hoogeveen (04:28):
For me, there are a lot of good definitions
out there.
Um, but the way that we defineit at better culture is we we
say, look, you you imagine agroup of people that you
interact with.
And this could be your team atwork, it could be your neighbors
at a barbecue, it could be yourfamily at Thanksgiving dinner.
But if you imagine theattitudes and the behaviors that
you will expect from that groupof people the next time you get
(04:51):
together, that's really whatyour culture is.
It's the attitudes and thebehaviors that a group comes to
expect from one another, is whatyour culture is.
So I really like to describe itas attitudes and behaviors,
something that's reallyunderstandable and describable,
sort of noticeable.
What do you think about that?
Dr. William Attaway (05:08):
Yeah, I like that.
You know, uh it it becomes moretangible, like you say.
Like when you're talking toexecutives or teams about this,
like what are some things thatyou that you talk about?
Is this just something thatcomes from the from the C-suite
level or the business owner?
Does it come just top down?
Brett Hoogeveen (05:25):
The prioritization of culture has to
come top down, right?
A top executive or executiveteam, they have to agree, yeah,
culture matters.
Culture's a priority.
Um, culture's right up therewith the other things that are
important to our business.
But then the actual creation ofa healthy culture can happen
from a lot of differentdirections and parts of the
organization.
Um, you know, if you're amanager of a of a frontline
(05:46):
team, you can do a lot to createa great culture just on that
team.
Um but if it wants to scaleacross an organization, it's got
to have an executive tilt toit, obviously.
Dr. William Attaway (05:56):
I I think about culture as something that
cannot be delegated.
That it has to be prioritizedat that top level.
And you can never delegatethat.
Would you agree with that?
Brett Hoogeveen (06:06):
I think I I mostly agree with that.
Um I I I like the scenario.
I I know where you're comingfrom on that.
And in 90% of cases, that'strue.
Um on occasion, you know, weall have strengths.
And I have seen a fewexecutives that realize their
style isn't um isn't what wouldbe ideal for the building of a
(06:30):
great culture.
And if they can become aware ofthat and self-aware and talk
about it and and work hard tohelp other executives, you know,
like if they essentially say,hey, look, I I know I have
several other folks that aregoing to help us build an
amazing set for uh for the playthat we're putting on every day
in our business.
My job's just to not knock itdown.
(06:51):
You know, like I need to atleast I can let other people be
the be the ringleaders ofbuilding a great culture and as
long as I stay out of the wayand don't ruin it.
Um I have seen that work onoccasion, but that's a rare
exception.
I mean, 90 plus percent of thetime, it's really the CEO that's
got the best and mostpassionate vision for the type
of company they want to create.
And that certainly works a lotbetter than the way I just
(07:12):
described.
Dr. William Attaway (07:12):
I like that.
And I like the I like theexample that you gave there,
building the set.
You know, you do not want togive me a hammer and nails.
I'm not good with this, and I'mgonna hurt myself and other
people, right?
But I can cheer people on and Ican talk about how important it
is that we do this and castvision for this and encourage
people as they are using theirgifts to build it.
You know, and and that's what Ithink of when I think about
(07:35):
culture.
I'm thinking it's my job notnecessarily to do the culture,
all the culture stuff, but I'mthe biggest cheerleader because
that's something that is socritical.
I mean, I I I think everyorganization, every team, every
business has a culture.
You either have one youdesigned on purpose and protect,
or you have one you didn't meanto have.
But you have a culture.
Brett Hoogeveen (07:57):
No, you got one no matter what, right?
There people show up withattitudes and behaviors, right?
That's what your culture is.
So people do stuff when theyshow up at work, right?
They show up in a certain way.
So you do have a culture.
Um, you just have to beintentional about it.
You have to prioritize it,envision it.
Okay, what are the attitudesand behaviors we want from our
employees?
And then what can we do toactually influence that, to make
sure that people every day areliving those, those, those
(08:20):
behaviors, those attitudes thatwe want a little bit more,
right?
And that's what effectiveculture building really looks
like.
Dr. William Attaway (08:27):
So let's dive into that for a minute.
What are some things that youcan do from a leadership
perspective to encourage or todrive those type of attitudes
and behaviors that are movingyou toward the culture that you
want?
Brett Hoogeveen (08:40):
So in my organization, Better Culture, we
have two primary schemas thatwe work with organizations to
help them first understand andthen implement.
And one of those schemas iswhat can leaders do, sort of
from the top down, yeah, vialeadership to lead in a way that
builds healthier teams andcultures.
Okay.
(09:00):
And I'll go deeper into that ina second.
But first I want to mention theother approach is really
bottom-up.
What can everyone do to show upwith the right attitudes and
behaviors to make themselvesmore successful, make the team
more successful, and build ahealthier culture across the
organization from whateverposition that you're in?
So when we think strategicallyabout building a great workplace
(09:21):
culture, I love that simplemodel of, well, what do leaders
need to do sort of top-down?
And what can everybody dobottom up to all contribute to
building these this healthierculture?
Dr. William Attaway (09:33):
That's that's really good.
Uh a lot of the people who arelistening are top-down.
Like they're the they're theowners, they're the business
owners, the founders, theexecutives.
They're listening to this.
What are what what are somewhat are some examples of things
that they can do top-down?
Brett Hoogeveen (09:49):
So over 30 years ago now, my father built a
company in the Omaha area that,as I mentioned, was voted the
best place to work over and overagain.
And the number one secret towhat he and his early leadership
team did there is they said, wewant to make sure if you're
gonna be a manager in thiscompany, we have to have crystal
clarity on what it means to bea leader.
(10:12):
Okay.
And he came up early on withthese seven principles of
leadership.
That turns out, if leaders willunderstand these simple
mindsets and then work hardevery day to bring these things
to life, you'll have a fantasticculture.
And so if it's okay with you,I'd love to share just a little
bit of what sort of what thatis.
Because in the work that we doat Better Culture, we've now
(10:34):
worked with leaders acrossdozens and dozens of industries.
And every single time, peoplesay, Yeah, this is what like I
would love my managers to domore of these things in my
company.
Um, and so whether you're anexecutive or a frontline leader,
it the these seven principleswill help you build a healthier
culture.
So the first one is kind of acatch-all, but it says you've
always, always got to be focusedon mission, culture, and the
(10:57):
pursuit of excellence.
Okay.
That that that's, you know,it's a catch-all, right?
Mission and vision and valuesand things like that.
Okay.
But the second one is where itstarts to get interesting.
We believe it's a leader's job,and if you're listening,
always, always, always, withevery interaction that you can
find, opportunities to helppeople feel more proud of where
they work and to know that theircompany is proud of them.
(11:18):
Okay.
So hopefully you could start tosee what it would look like if
you conducted yourself every daylooking for opportunities to
communicate in a way that helpspeople feel more proud of their
business and to know that thebusiness is proud of them, that
they feel seen and valued andrecognized.
What do you think about that uhfor as a as a principle of
leadership?
Dr. William Attaway (11:38):
I love it.
Uh I think it values people.
It shows the honor and respectthat you want to show to another
individual, not just for whatthey do, but for who they are.
Love that.
Brett Hoogeveen (11:49):
Yeah.
And what we find is so manypeople just miss, they don't no
one disagrees with me on that.
But then I say, okay, well,what about the 97% of the
chances you had yesterday to dothat that you didn't do?
Right?
Oh, oh, so good.
Right?
Okay.
So uh the another one that wetalk a lot about is it's it's a
leader's job to help theirpeople be successful at work and
(12:10):
in life.
And when you show up that wayas a leader, your employees feel
that.
You know, if if if they're justthere to do a job, you know,
complete a task, check boxes, orif you're really truly deeply
invested in their success.
And part of that success iskicking butt at their job, you
know, getting all the gettingall the boxes checked and
(12:30):
getting all the stuff done.
But the other part of that islike, I want you as a person to
be successful here, right?
And happy, um, both at work andoutside of work.
And again, if leaders willconduct themselves in that way,
it makes a huge difference onhow employees feel about their
job, their team, their manager,et cetera.
Dr. William Attaway (12:46):
That's good.
That's so good.
Uh I think being successful atwork and in life, I love that
inclusion there because that'sthat really speaks to the to the
wholeness, the totality ofone's life instead of trying to
compartmentalize and say, we'rejust going to focus on this one
slice of your life, even thoughyou're one person.
I think that's valuable.
Brett Hoogeveen (13:08):
Yeah.
I'll give you one more so wedon't have to do all seven of
these unless you want all ofthem, but there's other ones
that are on conflict and oncommunication decision making.
But the one that people reallypeople resonate with the wording
of this.
Um, and I think we're the onlysort of leadership consulting
company that says it this way isit's a leader's job to protect
the right of good employees towork with other good employees.
(13:32):
Um, this gets into performancemanagement, dealing with problem
cases, toxic behaviors,non-performance, et cetera.
But what we find is if you wantgreat people to want to stick
around and want to be a part ofa team, it's a leader's job to
protect those people from toxiccoworkers, from people who
(13:53):
aren't pulling their fair shareof the load that's going to
cause them to burn out becausethey have to do extra work, et
cetera.
Uh, we could show you mountainsof employee engagement data
that show that the second lowestscoring question on our own
culture survey that we do withorganizations says supervisors
in my company do a good jobdealing with poor staff
performance.
(14:13):
And that's the second lowestscoring question across all the
data that we gather.
And I promise you, it's not theproblem employees that are
rating that low.
It's your stars, it's your bestpeople that are saying my
manager is not protecting myright to work with other good
people.
And that's how you burn greatpeople out.
Dr. William Attaway (14:29):
Oh my goodness, that's so good.
unknown (14:31):
Yeah.
Dr. William Attaway (14:32):
Okay.
That may be my favorite.
I like that one.
People like that one.
Yeah.
I love that one.
I think that's so good.
And I can think of so manyexamples of places where I've
worked in the past, uh, but alsoa lot of my clients who talk
about this.
And how it's like, they don'teven seem to care that this is
going on, but they're holding meto a standard and they're not
(14:52):
holding it, it's sodysfunctional.
Brett Hoogeveen (14:54):
So this is the math side of me.
If you if you don't mind, I'llgo back to the math, math side
of me.
You can make a really good casethat one way, and this this
sounds harsh, but uh just mathfor a second.
That if you want to create ahealthier team and a healthier
culture, one way to shift thedistribution of how all of your
team, how all your employeesfeel about the company, is to
(15:16):
just remove the negative ones,the toxic ones, the
non-performers, and replace themwith somebody that's at least
average, at least a little bit.
And my job with my clients isto help them create a better
culture consistently over time.
And there's a lot of things wecan do to move people's
attitudes and behaviors andshift all those things.
But man, one of the fastestways to shift that curve is just
to get serious about sayingwho's not a fit here, who
(15:39):
doesn't meet our expectations,who's who's making life harder
for everybody else.
And if you'll just get seriousabout that and deal with those
folks in a compassionate andfair way and help them either
get on board or or go bless someother organization with their
company, you'll make so muchprogress fast.
Dr. William Attaway (15:54):
Well, I think it it illustrates that you
have what you tolerate, youknow.
So often we we, as leaders,will let the bar slide.
And when we do that, we'renever gonna get, you don't drift
into excellence, you drift intomediocrity or worse.
And high performers are notgonna stay in that environment.
So I love that.
I think you're exactly right.
(16:14):
You pull out the thenon-performers, the low
performers, you pull out the Cplayers and watch performance
skyrocket.
Man, that's so good.
I love that.
Thank you.
Brett Hoogeveen (16:24):
Thank you.
Yeah, and what I find is whenpeople look at it from the
perspective of it's not my jobto go deal with this
non-performer or to have a toughconversation, or that that
feels messy.
If you if you orient it throughthe lens of it's my job to,
it's my job as a leader toprotect the right of my great
people to work with other, atleast good people.
It it feels like a more noblemission than, oh, I gotta go
(16:48):
deal with this, you know, have aheart, I gotta write somebody
up, I gotta.
No, I'm protecting the right ofmy awesome people to have a
great experience here uh in myorganization.
Dr. William Attaway (16:57):
So that's so good.
I'm gonna remember that one,Brett.
That's really that's solidthere.
That's really well said.
Thank you.
Thank you.
So, so we've talked from thetop down.
Let's say people are listeningwho are not at the top.
They're not the ultimatedecision makers, the owners, the
C-suite.
They're more bottom-up.
Are there ways that they cantake actions or think about
(17:20):
attitudes and behaviors thatcontribute to a desired culture?
Brett Hoogeveen (17:24):
Yes.
Is that a good enough answer?
Dr. William Attaway (17:27):
Absolutely.
We're done.
Let's move on.
Brett Hoogeveen (17:31):
So, how can they do that?
I mean, so so um the way thatyou show up, the attitudes and
behaviors that you show up withshape other people's experience
of a team and a culture.
And so probably three, fouryears ago, um, even our best
clients and our bestorganizations that we had worked
(17:51):
with that had gone through ourleadership training, had
experienced our sevenprinciples, had put those
things, the top-down stuff inplace.
What we were finding is youknow how training is, it, you
know, you do great training andyou hope people use, you know,
90% of what you teach them, andyou find out maybe they're using
10% of what you teach them.
And it's like, hey, that'sgood.
Let's reinforce, let's keepgoing, let's grow, let's get
(18:13):
better.
Um, but we were finding evenwith the organizations we were
most deeply partnered with, uh,there was still 85% of the
employee base that wasn't amanager that they they didn't
have any interaction with betterculture.
And if we wanted to help thewhole organization create a
better experience, a betterplace to work, we started asking
ourselves, okay, what could wedo for the rest of the employees
(18:34):
to help them grow, develop, besuccessful, but also contribute
to a healthier team and culture?
And we uh it was a longproject, but we came up with
sort of a universal list ofthese attitudes and behaviors
that across industries, acrossorganizations, people would say
if if an employee shows up anddoes these things, they would be
(18:55):
a star in our business.
And that became what we callour 20 tenets of culture.
And it's 20 attitudes andbehaviors that if employees will
lean into, those attitudes andbehaviors, not only, of course,
will it create a better,healthier culture, because
that's where we started out.
But what we found out and whatwe didn't expect was when we
(19:15):
looked at the research aroundthese things, and these are
things like they're notcomplicated.
Be coachable, be helpful, bewelcoming, be upbeat, you know,
don't gossip, right?
That the these are not hardthings to understand.
But we what we found is there'sthere was data that showed if
if individual people will workon these skills, yeah, it's good
(19:35):
for teams and good for culture.
It'll actually make them moresuccessful and happy in life,
right?
And so that's what when when wegot really excited and we said,
wow, I think we can really notonly help organizations build
healthier cultures, but we cando that that third principle of
leadership.
Um, help people be moresuccessful at work and in life.
If we can help teach theseskills, these 20 tenants to
(19:56):
every employee, it makes peopleum not only better employees,
but it makes them more happy andsuccessful in life.
And that that's a lot of fun.
Dr. William Attaway (20:04):
That's really good.
You know, and they're theysound very accessible.
Like anybody can grab these andgrab onto it and say, okay,
yeah, I can do that.
Like I can choose my attitudeon that.
Brett Hoogeveen (20:15):
Yes.
Yeah.
They're so accessible.
And that's I think that's thehallmark.
You know, one of the best, bestand worst compliments we get
for our content is people willsay something like, Yeah, it's
just so common sense.
Right?
And it's like, thank you, Ithink, right?
Uh, but oftentimes, you know,it's not the most complicated
things that get the bestresults.
(20:36):
It's the basics.
And executing on the basicsgets you often more results than
trying to implement somethingreally complicated.
Dr. William Attaway (20:45):
You know, it makes me think a friend of
mine told me years ago, commonsense is not a flower that is
planted in every garden.
I like that.
I think that's true.
I think we we can we can pointpeople toward these simple
truths that can make such adramatic difference.
And that's that's what I'mhearing.
I mean, you you have servedclients in so many places, so
(21:08):
many industries.
Like, can you think of of onethat stands out that you would
say, hey, you know, they reallydid the work and they saw some
results from it.
Brett Hoogeveen (21:18):
Hmm.
Yeah.
Um I have uh let's see, I canthink of quite a few.
Um there's one particularorganization that I've done a
lot of work with recently umthat I just really admire their
their consistency at trying toget better.
Um and uh it's a localorganization.
(21:39):
Nebraska Cancer Specialist isthe name of that group.
I just had their practiceadministrator on my podcast a
few weeks back.
And just every quarter, everytime I touch base, they're
they're working on somethingculturally to get better,
whether that's with theirphysician ownership uh uh
practice group, whether that'swith their leaders, whether
that's with all employees,whether that's with their
(22:00):
customers.
And, you know, it's interestingto see when you have executives
that are just focused always onlooking for small opportunities
to make progress.
Those are the businesses thatit doesn't feel like they make a
lot of progress in a week or amonth.
But when you look over three orfive years, they were just
voted a best place to work inour local community.
(22:21):
And it's because of all of theconsistent little things that
their leadership does to try tostrengthen that organization.
And I guess those are theorganizations that I admire
most, are not the ones that tryto push through one big
initiative, but to try to stackup lots of little things over
time that make kind of all thedifference.
Dr. William Attaway (22:40):
Consistency compounds.
Yes, it does.
I love that.
Brett, I want to talk abouttalk about you for a second.
You know, you have to lead yourclients, your team at a higher
level today than you did eventhree or four years ago.
And that same thing is gonna betrue three or four years from
now.
How do you stay on top of yourgame?
(23:01):
How do you level up with thenew skills that your clients and
your team are gonna need you tohave in the days ahead at
Better Culture?
Brett Hoogeveen (23:11):
I hope I have a good answer to that.
You know, that that would begood if I did.
Uh it's funny, there are somany ways.
There's so much information outthere.
Um, and what I have found formyself is um I used to think if
I just pursued more information,if I just read more, if I
listened to more things, if Iwent to more conferences, but
(23:32):
somehow that was at the heart ofme really developing my own
skills.
And I've shifted in recentyears to thinking that actually
um understanding just a fewareas that I want to get better
at and trying to stay focused onthose things and really
filtering the types ofinformation that I'm working on
or that I'm considering isactually probably a more
(23:53):
effective way for me to grow myskills.
And so um I love that.
I think I listen to a lot ofpodcasts.
You know, I there are certainthings, audio books, audio works
best for me.
Um and so I just try to controlmy feed and my narrative in
those areas and listen to peoplewho I respect and admire.
And um that's my, you know,there's no rocket science to
(24:15):
that.
But uh that's been what I thinkhas been most effective for me
is um not just looking at everybest-selling leadership book or
every new idea and saying, no,here's here's my lane, and who
do I really respect in that laneand try to focus on fewer
voices and fewer new ideas thatI can actually operationalize.
Dr. William Attaway (24:37):
You know, I love the intentionality of
that.
I'm saying I'm not gonna tryto, you know, focus on 20 things
this season, this quarter, thisyear.
I'm gonna focus on three orfour and dive deep.
I think that I think thatthere's a lot that we can take
away from that.
And I hope our listeners aregrabbing onto that because as we
record this, we're wrapping up2025 and everybody's thinking
(25:00):
about next year.
At least the best leaders Iknow are.
Yes.
And I think the intentionalityyou bring to that is going to
determine the results that youget.
So thank you for sharing that.
Absolutely.
You know, you think about thebooks that you've that you've
listened to, right, or read.
Is there one that stands outthat you would be like, hey, if
(25:20):
if you haven't read this orlistened to this, this one made
a difference for me.
This one made me thinkdifferently.
Brett Hoogeveen (25:27):
Um if it's okay with you, no, I I don't have
one that I can really referencethat made the biggest difference
for me.
Yeah.
Um I really like, you know,it's it's it's interesting.
We put so much time and effortinto building our own set of
content that um increasingly uhwhat I find is I'm not trying to
(25:48):
add new insights, newperspectives.
I'm trying to figure out how tomake the things we do more
effective.
Um early in my career, I reallyI was always assuming there was
more out there than what thanwhat we deliver to our clients.
And of course there always is,right?
Um but similar philosophy to toto what we just discussed, I
think oftentimes more isn'tisn't better.
(26:10):
And so um what I've try tofocus on more than more than
reading, you know, a new thingis what can I do to make a make
make the things that I know workmore effective for our clients?
And so um I don't know ifthat's a good answer to your
question, but I don't have abook if it doesn't square with
the philosophies we areteaching.
So maybe that maybe that meansI should work on my own book.
Dr. William Attaway (26:34):
You know, uh there are worse things.
I think I think to to capturethe insights that you've gained
so far and making themaccessible to a broader audience
that you may never talk to inperson, uh I think has a lot of
value.
I have found that from my ownwriting.
I would encourage that.
Brett Hoogeveen (26:51):
Well, thank you.
I'll take that to heart.
Dr. William Attaway (26:54):
So so last question that I have for you.
You know, every business owner,founder that I know uh looks
around the landscape and sees somany things that they wish they
could change or fix or andsolve this one.
This would make a difference.
If I had the ability to snap myfingers and solve one problem
(27:16):
in your business today, whatwould you want that problem to
be?
Brett Hoogeveen (27:20):
In my business?
I think it would be it would beuh a communication challenge, a
uh, you know, helping peopleconnecting what we know we can
do for organizations with themunderstanding what the
challenges that they'recurrently facing are tied and
(27:41):
connected to culture, right?
Um and so maybe that's a salesmessaging uh, you know, uh
context.
We we spent a lot of time onthat in the last six months.
And we're making progress,helping people understand why
why better culture might besomething that they should focus
on as a priority for 2026.
Um, but we don't have the magicbullet yet of, you know, some
(28:01):
companies get it, a lot ofcompanies don't.
Um and so I'm trying to helpother organizations sort of
slowly come around to the ideathat, huh, uh, you know, adding
culture as a strategic priorityuh wouldn't take a ton of
effort, wouldn't take a ton oftime, but would generate a lot
of value for our business.
So anything you can do to helpme communicate that even better,
I think is the problem I'd wantto solve.
Dr. William Attaway (28:23):
I love it.
I think that's something that alot of business owners struggle
with.
And I appreciate you sharingthat.
That's really, really wellsaid.
Thank you.
Brett, this has been just amasterclass today around culture
and what you're doing to make adifference in the companies
that you serve, uh, I think isis incredible.
Uh, I know our listeners aregonna want to stay connected to
(28:45):
you and learn more from you andabout what you're doing at
Better Culture.
But what's the best way forthem to do that?
Brett Hoogeveen (28:53):
Well, uh, you can find me on LinkedIn, Brett
Hogaveen is a good way.
You can go tobetterculture.com.
I I'd like to, if it's okaywith you, I'd like to spin one
of your questions sort of back alittle bit and give a give an
answer I think might beinteresting to your people, uh,
to your listeners.
You know, you asked about, youknow, it's we're recording this
toward the end of 2025, businessowners are focused on 2026, and
(29:15):
then you asked me what one ofmy goals would be.
I I'd like to maybe give anidea for what what business
owners might think about as abold goal that they could adopt.
And this is really hard toreach, but what I have found is
this is uh this catches peopleoff guard a little bit.
And the question is this whatif in 2026 you made a promise to
(29:37):
all of your employees that overthe next couple years, you were
gonna be able to look them allin the eye and say, I'm gonna
promise you report to a worldclass supervisor.
What would that do forbusiness?
If people said, you know what,every employee in my company is
gonna work for a world classleader.
And in order for that tohappen, there's just two things
(29:58):
that a business has to do.
You got to put the right peoplein leadership positions.
And then you've got to kind oftrain them how to be a great
leader.
You know, what do people wantfrom a great leader?
And I think if businesses woulddo that, they would see
remarkable results.
Just focus on effectiveleadership throughout your
organization.
And uh I know today we'vetalked a little bit about sort
(30:20):
of what great leadership lookslike.
Um, we also just recentlycreated a free resource that
helps people understand thatfirst question, which is what
are the characteristics ofsomebody that should be put in a
leadership position, leadershippotential?
We have this people leaderchecklist that we recently
created that I'd love to give toyour folks if that's okay.
Dr. William Attaway (30:37):
A hundred percent.
That's so generous, man.
Brett Hoogeveen (30:40):
Yeah.
So I create a landing page.
It's just at betterculture.comforward slash catalytic, if
people can spell that.
It was hard for me, but Ifigured it out.
Dr. William Attaway (30:49):
We'll have the link in the show notes.
unknown (30:51):
Good.
Brett Hoogeveen (30:51):
Uh but if people will go there, it's just
it's a it's a checklist to saywhen you're promoting somebody
or even when you're coaching acurrent leader, what are the
characteristics that make themmore naturally um likely to be
the type of leader that peoplewill say, man, I have a great
boss.
You know, I work for a greatcompany because that makes all
the difference.
Dr. William Attaway (31:08):
That's so good.
Well, that's so generous, man.
Thank you for doing that forthe listeners.
Yeah, well, thank you forhaving me on.
Well, it's been a joy.
I'm so grateful for yourgenerosity, Brett, and sharing
so freely from your journey sofar.
And I can't wait to see whatyou do next.
And I'm looking forward toreading your book.
Thank you.
I'm so excited today to have Brett
Hogaveen on the podcast.
Brett's a trained engineer, aformer healthcare executive, a
startup investor, and theco-founder of Better Culture, a
prominent leadership developmentand technology firm with
clients spanning fromentrepreneurial startups to
Fortune 500 companies.
In the past 10 years, Brett hastrained thousands of leaders
(00:23):
and worked hands-on withhundreds of organizations and
executive teams focused oncreating stronger businesses
through elevated leaders,stronger teams, and more
energized workplace cultures.
An international speaker andcertified speaking professional,
Brett focuses on providingpractical and actionable advice
(00:44):
on leadership, company culture,and the not-so-secret secrets of
becoming successful and happy.
Brad, I'm so glad you're here.
Man, thanks for being on theshow.
I love it.
Thank you for having me.
Intro (01:00):
Welcome to Catalytic Leadership, the podcast designed
to help leaders intentionallygrow and thrive.
Here is your host, author, andleadership and executive coach,
Dr.
William Attaway.
Dr. William Attaway (01:17):
I would love to start with you sharing a
little bit of your story withour listeners.
Brad, I had a couple of thehigh points there.
I'd love for you to shareparticularly around your journey
and your development as aleader.
How'd you get started?
Brett Hoogeveen (01:31):
Boy, you know, I was a numbers kid growing up.
I was uh I was always good atmath, math and science.
And when that's the case andyou don't know what you want to
do in life, every guidancecounselor that you talk to says,
well, maybe you should, youknow, go be an engineer or
something like that.
And I didn't have any betterideas, so I kind of took their
advice.
And I really didn't realize, Igot all the way through college,
(01:53):
my first job.
And even though my father,which is side story, he had
started a company that was uhyear after year voted the best
place to work in in my hometownof Omaha, Nebraska.
Oh, wow.
I didn't really understand howimportant actually where you
work would be uh in my qualityof life.
I kind of thought it was aboutlike, what are you good at?
(02:14):
What, what profession do youwant to pursue?
And it wasn't until I got outin the real world of work that I
realized, oh, actually, I Ithought I like this career, but
I don't like the job I have.
I don't like the company I workfor.
And that was sort of when Irealized that culture matters a
heck of a lot more than Ithought it did.
And that, you know, you coulddo a lot of different jobs in a
(02:34):
lot of different, you know, sortof industries if you work with
great people and for a greatcompany.
And so that's sort of how I gotinterested in leadership and
culture specifically, um, wasthrough firsthand experience.
Dr. William Attaway (02:45):
You know, I love that.
And I think that is so true.
The environment, the culturethat a that a team or a business
organization has is socritical.
And yet, man, I find that it isnot something that is top of
mind, and it's not one of thelights on the dashboard that
business owners and C-suiteleaders are so focused in on
like they are on the profitmargin, right?
(03:07):
Why do you think that is andhow do we deal with that?
Brett Hoogeveen (03:12):
So I think it's because it's it's a little bit
invisible what the impact is.
It's not quite as tangible asyou know, this quarter's sales
numbers, or, you know, uh uhturnover costs or a quality
metric or a customer retentionrate or you know, these things
that that feel like there's anobvious primary connection to
(03:36):
what comp what most businessleaders care about, which is the
bottom line and success andwhat those metrics.
But what people don'tunderstand, I think, is how much
the way that your employeesfeel every day about their job
and about their company andabout the work that they do, how
that's culture, how much thatreally drives all of those
metrics that people care about.
(03:57):
So I I often am helping peopleunderstand that if you'll focus
on culture and helping create anenvironment that people are
more and more excited to be apart of, then all that other
stuff sort of gets a little bitof rocket fuel.
You know, it's easier to makeprogress on all those other
things.
So I don't know why it's notmore obvious to more people, but
that's sort of my mission is tomake it more obvious.
Dr. William Attaway (04:20):
I love that.
So let's let's start for ourlisteners who who maybe haven't
really dived into this before.
How do you define culture?
Brett Hoogeveen (04:28):
For me, there are a lot of good definitions
out there.
Um, but the way that we defineit at better culture is we we
say, look, you you imagine agroup of people that you
interact with.
And this could be your team atwork, it could be your neighbors
at a barbecue, it could be yourfamily at Thanksgiving dinner.
But if you imagine theattitudes and the behaviors that
you will expect from that groupof people the next time you get
(04:51):
together, that's really whatyour culture is.
It's the attitudes and thebehaviors that a group comes to
expect from one another, is whatyour culture is.
So I really like to describe itas attitudes and behaviors,
something that's reallyunderstandable and describable,
sort of noticeable.
What do you think about that?
Dr. William Attaway (05:08):
Yeah, I like that.
You know, uh it it becomes moretangible, like you say.
Like when you're talking toexecutives or teams about this,
like what are some things thatyou that you talk about?
Is this just something thatcomes from the from the C-suite
level or the business owner?
Does it come just top down?
Brett Hoogeveen (05:25):
The prioritization of culture has to
come top down, right?
A top executive or executiveteam, they have to agree, yeah,
culture matters.
Culture's a priority.
Um, culture's right up therewith the other things that are
important to our business.
But then the actual creation ofa healthy culture can happen
from a lot of differentdirections and parts of the
organization.
Um, you know, if you're amanager of a of a frontline
(05:46):
team, you can do a lot to createa great culture just on that
team.
Um but if it wants to scaleacross an organization, it's got
to have an executive tilt toit, obviously.
Dr. William Attaway (05:56):
I I think about culture as something that
cannot be delegated.
That it has to be prioritizedat that top level.
And you can never delegatethat.
Would you agree with that?
Brett Hoogeveen (06:06):
I think I I mostly agree with that.
Um I I I like the scenario.
I I know where you're comingfrom on that.
And in 90% of cases, that'strue.
Um on occasion, you know, weall have strengths.
And I have seen a fewexecutives that realize their
style isn't um isn't what wouldbe ideal for the building of a
(06:30):
great culture.
And if they can become aware ofthat and self-aware and talk
about it and and work hard tohelp other executives, you know,
like if they essentially say,hey, look, I I know I have
several other folks that aregoing to help us build an
amazing set for uh for the playthat we're putting on every day
in our business.
My job's just to not knock itdown.
(06:51):
You know, like I need to atleast I can let other people be
the be the ringleaders ofbuilding a great culture and as
long as I stay out of the wayand don't ruin it.
Um I have seen that work onoccasion, but that's a rare
exception.
I mean, 90 plus percent of thetime, it's really the CEO that's
got the best and mostpassionate vision for the type
of company they want to create.
And that certainly works a lotbetter than the way I just
(07:12):
described.
Dr. William Attaway (07:12):
I like that.
And I like the I like theexample that you gave there,
building the set.
You know, you do not want togive me a hammer and nails.
I'm not good with this, and I'mgonna hurt myself and other
people, right?
But I can cheer people on and Ican talk about how important it
is that we do this and castvision for this and encourage
people as they are using theirgifts to build it.
You know, and and that's what Ithink of when I think about
(07:35):
culture.
I'm thinking it's my job notnecessarily to do the culture,
all the culture stuff, but I'mthe biggest cheerleader because
that's something that is socritical.
I mean, I I I think everyorganization, every team, every
business has a culture.
You either have one youdesigned on purpose and protect,
or you have one you didn't meanto have.
But you have a culture.
Brett Hoogeveen (07:57):
No, you got one no matter what, right?
There people show up withattitudes and behaviors, right?
That's what your culture is.
So people do stuff when theyshow up at work, right?
They show up in a certain way.
So you do have a culture.
Um, you just have to beintentional about it.
You have to prioritize it,envision it.
Okay, what are the attitudesand behaviors we want from our
employees?
And then what can we do toactually influence that, to make
sure that people every day areliving those, those, those
(08:20):
behaviors, those attitudes thatwe want a little bit more,
right?
And that's what effectiveculture building really looks
like.
Dr. William Attaway (08:27):
So let's dive into that for a minute.
What are some things that youcan do from a leadership
perspective to encourage or todrive those type of attitudes
and behaviors that are movingyou toward the culture that you
want?
Brett Hoogeveen (08:40):
So in my organization, Better Culture, we
have two primary schemas thatwe work with organizations to
help them first understand andthen implement.
And one of those schemas iswhat can leaders do, sort of
from the top down, yeah, vialeadership to lead in a way that
builds healthier teams andcultures.
Okay.
(09:00):
And I'll go deeper into that ina second.
But first I want to mention theother approach is really
bottom-up.
What can everyone do to show upwith the right attitudes and
behaviors to make themselvesmore successful, make the team
more successful, and build ahealthier culture across the
organization from whateverposition that you're in?
So when we think strategicallyabout building a great workplace
(09:21):
culture, I love that simplemodel of, well, what do leaders
need to do sort of top-down?
And what can everybody dobottom up to all contribute to
building these this healthierculture?
Dr. William Attaway (09:33):
That's that's really good.
Uh a lot of the people who arelistening are top-down.
Like they're the they're theowners, they're the business
owners, the founders, theexecutives.
They're listening to this.
What are what what are somewhat are some examples of things
that they can do top-down?
Brett Hoogeveen (09:49):
So over 30 years ago now, my father built a
company in the Omaha area that,as I mentioned, was voted the
best place to work over and overagain.
And the number one secret towhat he and his early leadership
team did there is they said, wewant to make sure if you're
gonna be a manager in thiscompany, we have to have crystal
clarity on what it means to bea leader.
(10:12):
Okay.
And he came up early on withthese seven principles of
leadership.
That turns out, if leaders willunderstand these simple
mindsets and then work hardevery day to bring these things
to life, you'll have a fantasticculture.
And so if it's okay with you,I'd love to share just a little
bit of what sort of what thatis.
Because in the work that we doat Better Culture, we've now
(10:34):
worked with leaders acrossdozens and dozens of industries.
And every single time, peoplesay, Yeah, this is what like I
would love my managers to domore of these things in my
company.
Um, and so whether you're anexecutive or a frontline leader,
it the these seven principleswill help you build a healthier
culture.
So the first one is kind of acatch-all, but it says you've
always, always got to be focusedon mission, culture, and the
(10:57):
pursuit of excellence.
Okay.
That that that's, you know,it's a catch-all, right?
Mission and vision and valuesand things like that.
Okay.
But the second one is where itstarts to get interesting.
We believe it's a leader's job,and if you're listening,
always, always, always, withevery interaction that you can
find, opportunities to helppeople feel more proud of where
they work and to know that theircompany is proud of them.
(11:18):
Okay.
So hopefully you could start tosee what it would look like if
you conducted yourself every daylooking for opportunities to
communicate in a way that helpspeople feel more proud of their
business and to know that thebusiness is proud of them, that
they feel seen and valued andrecognized.
What do you think about that uhfor as a as a principle of
leadership?
Dr. William Attaway (11:38):
I love it.
Uh I think it values people.
It shows the honor and respectthat you want to show to another
individual, not just for whatthey do, but for who they are.
Love that.
Brett Hoogeveen (11:49):
Yeah.
And what we find is so manypeople just miss, they don't no
one disagrees with me on that.
But then I say, okay, well,what about the 97% of the
chances you had yesterday to dothat that you didn't do?
Right?
Oh, oh, so good.
Right?
Okay.
So uh the another one that wetalk a lot about is it's it's a
leader's job to help theirpeople be successful at work and
(12:10):
in life.
And when you show up that wayas a leader, your employees feel
that.
You know, if if if they're justthere to do a job, you know,
complete a task, check boxes, orif you're really truly deeply
invested in their success.
And part of that success iskicking butt at their job, you
know, getting all the gettingall the boxes checked and
(12:30):
getting all the stuff done.
But the other part of that islike, I want you as a person to
be successful here, right?
And happy, um, both at work andoutside of work.
And again, if leaders willconduct themselves in that way,
it makes a huge difference onhow employees feel about their
job, their team, their manager,et cetera.
Dr. William Attaway (12:46):
That's good.
That's so good.
Uh I think being successful atwork and in life, I love that
inclusion there because that'sthat really speaks to the to the
wholeness, the totality ofone's life instead of trying to
compartmentalize and say, we'rejust going to focus on this one
slice of your life, even thoughyou're one person.
I think that's valuable.
Brett Hoogeveen (13:08):
Yeah.
I'll give you one more so wedon't have to do all seven of
these unless you want all ofthem, but there's other ones
that are on conflict and oncommunication decision making.
But the one that people reallypeople resonate with the wording
of this.
Um, and I think we're the onlysort of leadership consulting
company that says it this way isit's a leader's job to protect
the right of good employees towork with other good employees.
(13:32):
Um, this gets into performancemanagement, dealing with problem
cases, toxic behaviors,non-performance, et cetera.
But what we find is if you wantgreat people to want to stick
around and want to be a part ofa team, it's a leader's job to
protect those people from toxiccoworkers, from people who
(13:53):
aren't pulling their fair shareof the load that's going to
cause them to burn out becausethey have to do extra work, et
cetera.
Uh, we could show you mountainsof employee engagement data
that show that the second lowestscoring question on our own
culture survey that we do withorganizations says supervisors
in my company do a good jobdealing with poor staff
performance.
(14:13):
And that's the second lowestscoring question across all the
data that we gather.
And I promise you, it's not theproblem employees that are
rating that low.
It's your stars, it's your bestpeople that are saying my
manager is not protecting myright to work with other good
people.
And that's how you burn greatpeople out.
Dr. William Attaway (14:29):
Oh my goodness, that's so good.
unknown (14:31):
Yeah.
Dr. William Attaway (14:32):
Okay.
That may be my favorite.
I like that one.
People like that one.
Yeah.
I love that one.
I think that's so good.
And I can think of so manyexamples of places where I've
worked in the past, uh, but alsoa lot of my clients who talk
about this.
And how it's like, they don'teven seem to care that this is
going on, but they're holding meto a standard and they're not
(14:52):
holding it, it's sodysfunctional.
Brett Hoogeveen (14:54):
So this is the math side of me.
If you if you don't mind, I'llgo back to the math, math side
of me.
You can make a really good casethat one way, and this this
sounds harsh, but uh just mathfor a second.
That if you want to create ahealthier team and a healthier
culture, one way to shift thedistribution of how all of your
team, how all your employeesfeel about the company, is to
(15:16):
just remove the negative ones,the toxic ones, the
non-performers, and replace themwith somebody that's at least
average, at least a little bit.
And my job with my clients isto help them create a better
culture consistently over time.
And there's a lot of things wecan do to move people's
attitudes and behaviors andshift all those things.
But man, one of the fastestways to shift that curve is just
to get serious about sayingwho's not a fit here, who
(15:39):
doesn't meet our expectations,who's who's making life harder
for everybody else.
And if you'll just get seriousabout that and deal with those
folks in a compassionate andfair way and help them either
get on board or or go bless someother organization with their
company, you'll make so muchprogress fast.
Dr. William Attaway (15:54):
Well, I think it it illustrates that you
have what you tolerate, youknow.
So often we we, as leaders,will let the bar slide.
And when we do that, we'renever gonna get, you don't drift
into excellence, you drift intomediocrity or worse.
And high performers are notgonna stay in that environment.
So I love that.
I think you're exactly right.
(16:14):
You pull out the thenon-performers, the low
performers, you pull out the Cplayers and watch performance
skyrocket.
Man, that's so good.
I love that.
Thank you.
Brett Hoogeveen (16:24):
Thank you.
Yeah, and what I find is whenpeople look at it from the
perspective of it's not my jobto go deal with this
non-performer or to have a toughconversation, or that that
feels messy.
If you if you orient it throughthe lens of it's my job to,
it's my job as a leader toprotect the right of my great
people to work with other, atleast good people.
It it feels like a more noblemission than, oh, I gotta go
(16:48):
deal with this, you know, have aheart, I gotta write somebody
up, I gotta.
No, I'm protecting the right ofmy awesome people to have a
great experience here uh in myorganization.
Dr. William Attaway (16:57):
So that's so good.
I'm gonna remember that one,Brett.
That's really that's solidthere.
That's really well said.
Thank you.
Thank you.
So, so we've talked from thetop down.
Let's say people are listeningwho are not at the top.
They're not the ultimatedecision makers, the owners, the
C-suite.
They're more bottom-up.
Are there ways that they cantake actions or think about
(17:20):
attitudes and behaviors thatcontribute to a desired culture?
Brett Hoogeveen (17:24):
Yes.
Is that a good enough answer?
Dr. William Attaway (17:27):
Absolutely.
We're done.
Let's move on.
Brett Hoogeveen (17:31):
So, how can they do that?
I mean, so so um the way thatyou show up, the attitudes and
behaviors that you show up withshape other people's experience
of a team and a culture.
And so probably three, fouryears ago, um, even our best
clients and our bestorganizations that we had worked
(17:51):
with that had gone through ourleadership training, had
experienced our sevenprinciples, had put those
things, the top-down stuff inplace.
What we were finding is youknow how training is, it, you
know, you do great training andyou hope people use, you know,
90% of what you teach them, andyou find out maybe they're using
10% of what you teach them.
And it's like, hey, that'sgood.
Let's reinforce, let's keepgoing, let's grow, let's get
(18:13):
better.
Um, but we were finding evenwith the organizations we were
most deeply partnered with, uh,there was still 85% of the
employee base that wasn't amanager that they they didn't
have any interaction with betterculture.
And if we wanted to help thewhole organization create a
better experience, a betterplace to work, we started asking
ourselves, okay, what could wedo for the rest of the employees
(18:34):
to help them grow, develop, besuccessful, but also contribute
to a healthier team and culture?
And we uh it was a longproject, but we came up with
sort of a universal list ofthese attitudes and behaviors
that across industries, acrossorganizations, people would say
if if an employee shows up anddoes these things, they would be
(18:55):
a star in our business.
And that became what we callour 20 tenets of culture.
And it's 20 attitudes andbehaviors that if employees will
lean into, those attitudes andbehaviors, not only, of course,
will it create a better,healthier culture, because
that's where we started out.
But what we found out and whatwe didn't expect was when we
(19:15):
looked at the research aroundthese things, and these are
things like they're notcomplicated.
Be coachable, be helpful, bewelcoming, be upbeat, you know,
don't gossip, right?
That the these are not hardthings to understand.
But we what we found is there'sthere was data that showed if
if individual people will workon these skills, yeah, it's good
(19:35):
for teams and good for culture.
It'll actually make them moresuccessful and happy in life,
right?
And so that's what when when wegot really excited and we said,
wow, I think we can really notonly help organizations build
healthier cultures, but we cando that that third principle of
leadership.
Um, help people be moresuccessful at work and in life.
If we can help teach theseskills, these 20 tenants to
(19:56):
every employee, it makes peopleum not only better employees,
but it makes them more happy andsuccessful in life.
And that that's a lot of fun.
Dr. William Attaway (20:04):
That's really good.
You know, and they're theysound very accessible.
Like anybody can grab these andgrab onto it and say, okay,
yeah, I can do that.
Like I can choose my attitudeon that.
Brett Hoogeveen (20:15):
Yes.
Yeah.
They're so accessible.
And that's I think that's thehallmark.
You know, one of the best, bestand worst compliments we get
for our content is people willsay something like, Yeah, it's
just so common sense.
Right?
And it's like, thank you, Ithink, right?
Uh, but oftentimes, you know,it's not the most complicated
things that get the bestresults.
(20:36):
It's the basics.
And executing on the basicsgets you often more results than
trying to implement somethingreally complicated.
Dr. William Attaway (20:45):
You know, it makes me think a friend of
mine told me years ago, commonsense is not a flower that is
planted in every garden.
I like that.
I think that's true.
I think we we can we can pointpeople toward these simple
truths that can make such adramatic difference.
And that's that's what I'mhearing.
I mean, you you have servedclients in so many places, so
(21:08):
many industries.
Like, can you think of of onethat stands out that you would
say, hey, you know, they reallydid the work and they saw some
results from it.
Brett Hoogeveen (21:18):
Hmm.
Yeah.
Um I have uh let's see, I canthink of quite a few.
Um there's one particularorganization that I've done a
lot of work with recently umthat I just really admire their
their consistency at trying toget better.
Um and uh it's a localorganization.
(21:39):
Nebraska Cancer Specialist isthe name of that group.
I just had their practiceadministrator on my podcast a
few weeks back.
And just every quarter, everytime I touch base, they're
they're working on somethingculturally to get better,
whether that's with theirphysician ownership uh uh
practice group, whether that'swith their leaders, whether
that's with all employees,whether that's with their
(22:00):
customers.
And, you know, it's interestingto see when you have executives
that are just focused always onlooking for small opportunities
to make progress.
Those are the businesses thatit doesn't feel like they make a
lot of progress in a week or amonth.
But when you look over three orfive years, they were just
voted a best place to work inour local community.
(22:21):
And it's because of all of theconsistent little things that
their leadership does to try tostrengthen that organization.
And I guess those are theorganizations that I admire
most, are not the ones that tryto push through one big
initiative, but to try to stackup lots of little things over
time that make kind of all thedifference.
Dr. William Attaway (22:40):
Consistency compounds.
Yes, it does.
I love that.
Brett, I want to talk abouttalk about you for a second.
You know, you have to lead yourclients, your team at a higher
level today than you did eventhree or four years ago.
And that same thing is gonna betrue three or four years from
now.
How do you stay on top of yourgame?
(23:01):
How do you level up with thenew skills that your clients and
your team are gonna need you tohave in the days ahead at
Better Culture?
Brett Hoogeveen (23:11):
I hope I have a good answer to that.
You know, that that would begood if I did.
Uh it's funny, there are somany ways.
There's so much information outthere.
Um, and what I have found formyself is um I used to think if
I just pursued more information,if I just read more, if I
listened to more things, if Iwent to more conferences, but
(23:32):
somehow that was at the heart ofme really developing my own
skills.
And I've shifted in recentyears to thinking that actually
um understanding just a fewareas that I want to get better
at and trying to stay focused onthose things and really
filtering the types ofinformation that I'm working on
or that I'm considering isactually probably a more
(23:53):
effective way for me to grow myskills.
And so um I love that.
I think I listen to a lot ofpodcasts.
You know, I there are certainthings, audio books, audio works
best for me.
Um and so I just try to controlmy feed and my narrative in
those areas and listen to peoplewho I respect and admire.
And um that's my, you know,there's no rocket science to
(24:15):
that.
But uh that's been what I thinkhas been most effective for me
is um not just looking at everybest-selling leadership book or
every new idea and saying, no,here's here's my lane, and who
do I really respect in that laneand try to focus on fewer
voices and fewer new ideas thatI can actually operationalize.
Dr. William Attaway (24:37):
You know, I love the intentionality of
that.
I'm saying I'm not gonna tryto, you know, focus on 20 things
this season, this quarter, thisyear.
I'm gonna focus on three orfour and dive deep.
I think that I think thatthere's a lot that we can take
away from that.
And I hope our listeners aregrabbing onto that because as we
record this, we're wrapping up2025 and everybody's thinking
(25:00):
about next year.
At least the best leaders Iknow are.
Yes.
And I think the intentionalityyou bring to that is going to
determine the results that youget.
So thank you for sharing that.
Absolutely.
You know, you think about thebooks that you've that you've
listened to, right, or read.
Is there one that stands outthat you would be like, hey, if
(25:20):
if you haven't read this orlistened to this, this one made
a difference for me.
This one made me thinkdifferently.
Brett Hoogeveen (25:27):
Um if it's okay with you, no, I I don't have
one that I can really referencethat made the biggest difference
for me.
Yeah.
Um I really like, you know,it's it's it's interesting.
We put so much time and effortinto building our own set of
content that um increasingly uhwhat I find is I'm not trying to
(25:48):
add new insights, newperspectives.
I'm trying to figure out how tomake the things we do more
effective.
Um early in my career, I reallyI was always assuming there was
more out there than what thanwhat we deliver to our clients.
And of course there always is,right?
Um but similar philosophy to toto what we just discussed, I
think oftentimes more isn'tisn't better.
(26:10):
And so um what I've try tofocus on more than more than
reading, you know, a new thingis what can I do to make a make
make the things that I know workmore effective for our clients?
And so um I don't know ifthat's a good answer to your
question, but I don't have abook if it doesn't square with
the philosophies we areteaching.
So maybe that maybe that meansI should work on my own book.
Dr. William Attaway (26:34):
You know, uh there are worse things.
I think I think to to capturethe insights that you've gained
so far and making themaccessible to a broader audience
that you may never talk to inperson, uh I think has a lot of
value.
I have found that from my ownwriting.
I would encourage that.
Brett Hoogeveen (26:51):
Well, thank you.
I'll take that to heart.
Dr. William Attaway (26:54):
So so last question that I have for you.
You know, every business owner,founder that I know uh looks
around the landscape and sees somany things that they wish they
could change or fix or andsolve this one.
This would make a difference.
If I had the ability to snap myfingers and solve one problem
(27:16):
in your business today, whatwould you want that problem to
be?
Brett Hoogeveen (27:20):
In my business?
I think it would be it would beuh a communication challenge, a
uh, you know, helping peopleconnecting what we know we can
do for organizations with themunderstanding what the
challenges that they'recurrently facing are tied and
(27:41):
connected to culture, right?
Um and so maybe that's a salesmessaging uh, you know, uh
context.
We we spent a lot of time onthat in the last six months.
And we're making progress,helping people understand why
why better culture might besomething that they should focus
on as a priority for 2026.
Um, but we don't have the magicbullet yet of, you know, some
(28:01):
companies get it, a lot ofcompanies don't.
Um and so I'm trying to helpother organizations sort of
slowly come around to the ideathat, huh, uh, you know, adding
culture as a strategic priorityuh wouldn't take a ton of
effort, wouldn't take a ton oftime, but would generate a lot
of value for our business.
So anything you can do to helpme communicate that even better,
I think is the problem I'd wantto solve.
Dr. William Attaway (28:23):
I love it.
I think that's something that alot of business owners struggle
with.
And I appreciate you sharingthat.
That's really, really wellsaid.
Thank you.
Brett, this has been just amasterclass today around culture
and what you're doing to make adifference in the companies
that you serve, uh, I think isis incredible.
Uh, I know our listeners aregonna want to stay connected to
(28:45):
you and learn more from you andabout what you're doing at
Better Culture.
But what's the best way forthem to do that?
Brett Hoogeveen (28:53):
Well, uh, you can find me on LinkedIn, Brett
Hogaveen is a good way.
You can go tobetterculture.com.
I I'd like to, if it's okaywith you, I'd like to spin one
of your questions sort of back alittle bit and give a give an
answer I think might beinteresting to your people, uh,
to your listeners.
You know, you asked about, youknow, it's we're recording this
toward the end of 2025, businessowners are focused on 2026, and
(29:15):
then you asked me what one ofmy goals would be.
I I'd like to maybe give anidea for what what business
owners might think about as abold goal that they could adopt.
And this is really hard toreach, but what I have found is
this is uh this catches peopleoff guard a little bit.
And the question is this whatif in 2026 you made a promise to
(29:37):
all of your employees that overthe next couple years, you were
gonna be able to look them allin the eye and say, I'm gonna
promise you report to a worldclass supervisor.
What would that do forbusiness?
If people said, you know what,every employee in my company is
gonna work for a world classleader.
And in order for that tohappen, there's just two things
(29:58):
that a business has to do.
You got to put the right peoplein leadership positions.
And then you've got to kind oftrain them how to be a great
leader.
You know, what do people wantfrom a great leader?
And I think if businesses woulddo that, they would see
remarkable results.
Just focus on effectiveleadership throughout your
organization.
And uh I know today we'vetalked a little bit about sort
(30:20):
of what great leadership lookslike.
Um, we also just recentlycreated a free resource that
helps people understand thatfirst question, which is what
are the characteristics ofsomebody that should be put in a
leadership position, leadershippotential?
We have this people leaderchecklist that we recently
created that I'd love to give toyour folks if that's okay.
Dr. William Attaway (30:37):
A hundred percent.
That's so generous, man.
Brett Hoogeveen (30:40):
Yeah.
So I create a landing page.
It's just at betterculture.comforward slash catalytic, if
people can spell that.
It was hard for me, but Ifigured it out.
Dr. William Attaway (30:49):
We'll have the link in the show notes.
unknown (30:51):
Good.
Brett Hoogeveen (30:51):
Uh but if people will go there, it's just
it's a it's a checklist to saywhen you're promoting somebody
or even when you're coaching acurrent leader, what are the
characteristics that make themmore naturally um likely to be
the type of leader that peoplewill say, man, I have a great
boss.
You know, I work for a greatcompany because that makes all
the difference.
Dr. William Attaway (31:08):
That's so good.
Well, that's so generous, man.
Thank you for doing that forthe listeners.
Yeah, well, thank you forhaving me on.
Well, it's been a joy.
I'm so grateful for yourgenerosity, Brett, and sharing
so freely from your journey sofar.
And I can't wait to see whatyou do next.
And I'm looking forward toreading your book.
Thank you.
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