Most digital agency owners are stuck in a cycle of hiring frustration—relying on resumes, guessing at culture fit, and hoping the next hire works out. In this episode, Dr. William Attaway sits down with Dr. Michael Neal, founder of Build My Team, to reveal the #1 hiring mistake that’s stalling agency growth and burning out leaders: trusting the resume.
You’ll learn how Dr. Neal replaced chaos with clarity using a hiring system that achieves a 97% match rate and radically improves retention and performance. We break down how to automate your hiring process, eliminate guesswork with psychometric assessments, and build a team that runs the business without constant oversight.
If you’re scaling your agency, overwhelmed by turnover, or feeling stuck in the fulfillment grind, this episode offers a proven roadmap for building the kind of team that makes scaling simple and sustainable.
What We Cover:
- Why resumes are killing your hiring process
- How to identify and attract A-players without guesswork
- Systems for hiring predictably and at scale
- Lessons from Disney and the Four Seasons on team culture
- The leadership mindset shift from doing to directing
Books Mentioned
- Who Not How by Dan Sullivan & Benjamin Hardy
- Think and Grow Rich by Napoleon Hill
- The Psychology of Money by Morgan Housel
- Atomic Habits by James Clear
Connect with Dr. Michael Neal:
Visit BuildMyTeam.com to schedule a consultation and explore a better way to build your team.
hiring mistakes, digital agency leadership, build my team, agency growth, GoHighLevel hiring, leadership coaching, remote team building, team culture, scaling digital agency, automated hiring system, recruiting A-players, agency operations
Join Dr. William Attaway on the Catalytic Leadership podcast as he shares transformative insights to help high-performance entrepreneurs and agency owners achieve Clear-Minded Focus, Calm Control, and Confidence.
- Free 30-Minute Discovery Call:
Ready to elevate your business? Book a free 30-minute discovery call with Dr. William Attaway and start your journey to success.
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Connect with Dr. William Attaway:
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dr. William Attaway (00:00):
It is an honor today to have Dr Michael
Neal on the podcast.
Michael is the founder andchief executive officer of Build
my Team.
He's a practicing optometristin private practice in Hawley,
pennsylvania.
He founded Build my Team tosolve his own hiring struggles
in his practice by modeling howcompanies like Disney and the
(00:22):
Four Seasons hire.
The process worked so well.
He expanded it to help friendsand now Build my Team services
clients in eight differenthealthcare professions in over
40 states and Canada.
Dr Neal, I'm so glad you werehere.
Thanks for being on the show.
Dr. Michael Neal (00:40):
Ah, thanks so much.
I'm really excited to be here,William.
Intro / Outro (00:45):
Welcome to Catalytic Leadership, the
podcast designed to help leadersintentionally grow and thrive.
Here is your host author andleadership and executive coach,
dr William.
Dr. William Attaway (01:01):
Attaway, I would love for you to share some
of your story with ourlisteners, particularly around
your journey and yourdevelopment as a leader.
How'd you get started?
Dr. Michael Neal (01:14):
Oh boy, I'm originally Canadian, so I have a
program in Canada called ArmyCadets to thank for that.
It wasn't the military, butimagine Boy Scouts on steroids,
and I was in that program from12 years old to 18.
And it was magnificent forbuilding leadership in all kinds
of people I love that.
Dr. William Attaway (01:35):
How'd you get from there to optometry?
Dr. Michael Neal (01:39):
Wrong turn in Albuquerque, boy?
No, I was.
When I was living in ruralCanada, I was able to work in an
optometry practice and I'vebeen an entrepreneur my whole
life.
So I knew that I wanted to tobe in business for myself in
(01:59):
some form or another and I wasfascinated by the science behind
the visual system or another.
And I was fascinated by thescience behind the visual system
, not to mention had a greatopportunity with a fellow Dr
Gary Wedmore, shout out to youwho let me into his practice in
high school to help in hispractice, and that turned into
an absolute love for eye care.
(02:20):
And you know, I always knew Iwanted to serve others and I
loved healthcare because you gotto help people all day long.
It was really, really coolStill is.
Dr. William Attaway (02:29):
I love that .
Well, and as someone whobenefits from your science,
thank you.
Dr. Michael Neal (02:35):
Well, these aren't for show either, on my
face, so starting your ownpractice in running your own
business.
Dr. William Attaway (02:40):
You know a lot of people start something
because they're really good atproviding a product or a service
, so they your own business.
You know a lot of people startsomething because they're really
good at providing a product ora service, so they go into
business, they start a practice,but then, as they find success,
they have to hire people tohelp them with fulfillment and
serving their clients or theirpatients Well.
Leading leadership's adifferent skill and hiring is a
(03:02):
different skill.
Yet so you started your companyoutside of your practice
because of your hiringchallenges.
What happened there?
Dr. Michael Neal (03:14):
Boy.
It was started because of theunmitigated, catastrophic
disaster that we had in ourpractice in terms of this.
Imagine a merry-go-round, arevolving door from a horror
movie, where people just keptgetting on and shot off one
after another, after another.
(03:34):
I mean, I could go on and on.
It was really, really bad, andanybody who's had hiring issues
in their own small business canrelate to this.
We were doing it the wrong way.
We were just hiring the wrongway.
We didn't know what the rightway was.
We also didn't know what thewrong way was.
We just knew that the resultswe were getting were awful and
(03:55):
consistently awful.
If anything, we were consistent, consistently awful.
Dr. William Attaway (04:02):
Yeah Well, consistency matters.
Dr. Michael Neal (04:04):
Oh, we were fantastic at it.
10 out of 10.
Would not recommend.
Dr. William Attaway (04:09):
So what did you do that?
I mean a lot of people who arelistening, most people are, you
know either have hired, arehiring or will hire, and so,
like, what are some of theditches that you drove into?
Dr. Michael Neal (04:21):
Well, they were more chasms in a glacier
than a ditch, you name it.
I mean, the real problem thatwe had was we were focused on
resumes for hiring, and resumesdon't tell you what a person's
good at, yeah, and you stop andthink about that.
Well, yeah, actually they don't.
They just tell you a workhistory and you can be
(04:42):
guaranteed that the work historyis uh, embellished or nowadays,
you know, ai makes it up insome form or another.
Um, you know, you get.
You get resumes nowadays forentry-level positions that read
like like the person just uh,was running general electric,
you know, or gm, or things likethat.
(05:04):
And I'm not, I'm not, I'mreally not buying that.
But all joking aside, they'reterrible.
So we didn't have an alternative, we didn't have any other
better way, and I was inexecutive leadership at the time
.
I took a look at some of theirteams and boy, these were high
functioning teams.
So I thought, well, they can doit.
I obviously can't do it.
(05:26):
Let's figure out what they'redoing differently and let's
create a process for our ownpractice that would get me out
of this mess for eternity.
I mean, I wanted to get out ofthis mess in perpetuity, not
dabble in it, not otherwise.
You know, necessity is themother of invention.
Well, we had a whole bunch ofnecessity and ended up inventing
a really, really cool processthat solves the problem.
Dr. William Attaway (05:49):
So talk about that, describe the process
.
What did you come up with?
Dr. Michael Neal (05:53):
Well, remember , we wanted to solve this
forever, and I say we because mywife and I, we were having
horrible problems with this.
So the quick summary of theprocess is that we write the job
description and we post it outto over 20 different job boards.
So why 20 different job boards?
Well, you have to cast thewidest possible net 300 resumes
(06:14):
to go through.
You'll die of paper cuts thatnever heal before you get
anywhere with that.
Well, we ended up automatingthe system, so that doesn't
matter.
So we get all these people andimagine just kind of pouring
(06:35):
these candidates into the top ofa funnel, if you will.
What the system does is it willtext them five seconds after
they apply with a link to gothrough some assessments.
And the assessments are supereasy 10 minutes, designed to
find out what they're good atNot, hey, what are you good at,
(06:55):
because you can ask that in aninterview.
These are psychometricassessments that truly determine
this with a very high level ofaccuracy, and so we're looking
for what their natural strengthsand talents are, what they're
actually good at, and also whatthey're not good at.
So let's say, for example, aposition requires you to follow
(07:18):
a lot of process, be very detailoriented and have a high stress
tolerance.
Well, we know that.
We know that about the personbefore a human ever communicates
with them.
We have oodles and oodles ofinformation about these
candidates and the reason I goon and on about that is each
position that we're looking forand again this started, for our
practice is extremely specific.
(07:39):
So we want an extremelyspecific match to the position.
We don't want somebody who tothe position.
We don't want somebody's close,we don't want somebody who, um,
is or is far away.
The tighter the match betweenthe position that we have and
the natural skill set andtalents of the person that's
applying.
The longer they stay, thehappier they are and the more
(08:02):
productive they are.
That's the math.
You know the metaphorical math,the equation behind it, if you
will, and that's what we wereable to develop.
So what our software does afterthey go through these
assessments is it will tell uswith a thumbs up if the person
can do the job or not, if thefit is that tight, and then we
also send them a video interviewso that we can make sure the
(08:26):
rubber meets the road andmatches the road and there's no
surprises and stuff like that.
The video interview tells us.
You know, of course, theanswers to the questions, but
that's not the real thing we'relooking for.
We're looking for how theyanswer the questions and how
they would represent ourpractice or our clients'
practices, or our clients, smallbusiness businesses and then,
(08:47):
when that's all said and done,we have something that are our
software outputs, called aninsight report.
An insight report tells oureither our clients or whoever's
doing the hiring all kinds ofintangibles and tangibles and
measurable results about thecandidate.
(09:08):
So you're not looking at aresume.
In fact, the resumes aren'teven looked at.
They're not worth the time.
What you're looking at insteadis a report about what this
person is actually fantastic at.
And when you approach thingsthat way, you get an incredibly
tight match to the position.
As I said before, that's wherepeople are able to show up for
(09:31):
work, do a stupendous job, gohome and come back the next day
and do the same thing over andover again.
Extremely high performance.
That's how we isolate, that'sthe secret sauce between how we
isolate the extremely highperformers for these positions.
Dr. William Attaway (09:44):
So as you develop this and I imagine there
was some testing and adjustingand testing and adjusting in
your own practice what did yousee changed in the way that you
hire beyond just you know?
Here's the assessment, here'sthe link.
Let's evaluate, like how didthis change and benefit your
(10:05):
practice as a whole?
Dr. Michael Neal (10:07):
well, first off, I always questioned excuse
me, I questioned resumes, butyou know there was no way to
hire people about resumes.
Now that I've used the, theassessment like to naturally um,
find or find their naturalstrengths and talents, a resume
is nothing more than a shotgunapproach.
I mean, sooner or later you'regoing to hit something, but
there's no logic or rationale.
(10:28):
And, most importantly, william,there's no predictability.
We have incredibly highpredictability as to whether or
not a person's going to work out.
You know, 97% plus, and that'sdelivered by just massive
feedback loops to improve andimprove, and improve.
So what I see in the practice?
Well, the biggest thing on ateam level is that the people
(10:52):
who weren't good fits for theposition and weren't performing
exited and they were replaced byperformers.
So the team just leveled up andleveled up and just when I
thought it couldn't level upanymore, it went up a couple
levels until the point where nowthe team runs our practice and
the other side of it is on myown side personally, on my
(11:15):
wife's side, on the docs.
We show up, we go see patients,we do just a little bit of
extra stuff during the day andwe go home.
The most important thing aboutthis, for me personally, is the
completely different workday.
Completely different workday.
(11:40):
Stress has plummeted off acliff.
I didn't jump off the cliff,the stress jumped off the cliff,
which is fantastic because itwas close, 95% less stressful
day.
Not that anybody can measurethat, or maybe somebody can but
it's just joyous.
Now I go, I joke with the teammembers.
They're playing practical jokeson me.
The other day they switched myfood in the microwave.
Just fun, fun stuff.
(12:02):
This is fun.
You know, we get to help peopleall day and we laugh all day.
What's not to like?
Before it was hellacious, itwas awful, it was and it was,
and tomorrow would be differentbecause it was awful, and
tomorrow would be differentbecause we'd have to let
somebody go and just over andover.
So the best part about this isI'm not exaggerating.
I'm simply not exaggerating.
Dr. William Attaway (12:23):
I'm describing the work environment
that 30 years now and I have notheard anybody talk about this
like you have In both of ourconversations.
I have just been blown away bythis, and I mean the question
(12:45):
that many of our listeners maybe asking is the same question
I'm asking.
Dr. Michael Neal (12:51):
Is this real Is this possible, and so I'm
going to throw some caveats outhere.
This isn't for all positions onplanet Earth.
These are for entry-levelpositions junior management,
middle management, clerical,administrative-type positions.
We're not hiring doctors.
We're not hiring.
You're not going to have 300doctors apply for your job
(13:11):
anywhere in healthcare.
You know you're not going tohave 300 doctors apply for your
job anywhere in healthcare.
So we have we are extremelygood at these types of positions
and we don't pretend to doanything else.
So that's where the feedbackloop has just grown tighter and
tighter and tighter.
Imagine, you know, early on inthis process, um, my, my
(13:34):
operations manager, who'sfantastic.
He rated our team members whenhe started on it with the
traffic light red, yellow, green, nice, and we did not have a
lot of green.
No, it was.
It was yellow and red, red, red, red, red.
Um, now the red people, thegreat people, but they just
(13:56):
weren't happy, they weren'tworking in a great job for them,
they were just punching a clock, getting a paycheck.
It wasn't a good fit for them.
So they moved on and we helpedthem move on and helped some of
them get different positions, etcetera.
One of them was red in the jobthat we had her in and switched
her role to focus solely on herstrengths and she became the
(14:20):
greenest of all greens.
I mean, what?
Wow it?
It?
It was from exactly one end ofan arc of a pendulum to the
other.
She went from zero to hero sameperson.
We just asked her to be herselfall day long and she's
spectacular at it, absolutelyspectacular.
She's now our patient advocate.
(14:40):
Before she was working ourfront desk and all that empathy
that she had all day long and doanything for patients was a
disaster at the front desk andit is categorically phenomenal.
As a patient coordinator.
She will move mountains to getpatients care and she is
categorically phenomenal as apatient coordinator.
She will move mountains to getpatients care and she does every
day.
Same person.
Two different job roles.
Dr. William Attaway (15:02):
So that was my next question how has this
translated into what yourpatients experience?
Dr. Michael Neal (15:08):
Yeah, Happier people.
The Four Seasons is terrificwith that.
So is Disney.
You go there and you have thesepeople who smile at you all day
long.
Mickey's not going to come upto you at Disney and be like oh
man, I'm having a heck of a day,Although I got to say that'd be
(15:29):
one of the coolest pranks toplay on somebody ever right.
But they don't do that becausethey're professionals and these
are.
You get people to act like thatnot by telling them you must be
happy.
That doesn't work at all.
You get them to be happybecause they show up happy.
They're just happy people.
They're working in a fulfillingrole, they like what they do.
(15:50):
They're asked to be themselvesall day long.
This, conceptually, is notrocket science.
Where the really tricky partcomes in is how to identify
those people and get them intothose roles.
Dr. William Attaway (16:01):
And that's where the magic happens.
Just fascinating to me, youknow.
I think about the number ofpeople that I have hired or that
I have helped clients asthey're hiring, and how often
those hires end up failing, andso often it's around
expectations, the expectationsthat you set during the hiring
process.
We talk about that.
(16:21):
What you're doing with Build myTeam takes us to a different
level and I have not seenanybody else doing this.
This can change the staffingindustry.
Dr. Michael Neal (16:32):
It does take it to a different level.
But in reality we're not going.
We're not doing what folksgenerally think.
We're meeting the candidateswhere they're at.
Yes, okay, like I'm not askingyou in an interview, I'm not
asking you what you're good atin an interview, I don't care at
all.
Okay, because all I know forsure is you're going to tell me
(16:56):
whatever you sense.
I think I want to hear yes,okay, um, because your electric
bill needs to be paid and yourlandlord doesn't care about any
more excuses.
They want their money.
Okay, well, you know, is that ahard, cold reality?
Well, for a lot of candidates,that's the situation they're in.
So, with our approach, beforean interview comes or before a
(17:23):
person shows up for an interview, we already have the insight
report.
We know they can do the job orthey wouldn't have been sent
over no-transcript.
(18:01):
That to the interview process.
I mean, you're really trying todo everything blind and this
way you have all thatinformation in front of you and
it's highly, highly predictable.
Dr. William Attaway (18:15):
You know, a friend of mine has said for
years that the hiring process isone of the most deceptive
things we do, becauseeverybody's trying to put their
best foot forward and saying,like you said, the thing you
think the other person wants tohear from both sides of the
table.
Yeah, this seems to shortcircuit that it does up.
Dr. Michael Neal (18:33):
Well, it's a blind hiring process from our
side, because we don't care ifthe person's male or female,
black, white, pink, green,purple, none of that stuff
matters, it is.
You do this.
Performers come in all shapesand sizes and what happens for
our clients is they get used tothese high performers.
(18:55):
They don't care what thepackaging looks like, as long as
the person's presentable in abusiness.
I mean, there are some minimums, of course, but as long as
they're presentable, terrific.
So what we do is we get thatperson in front of our clients
through a completely blindprocess.
(19:16):
They don't have.
Nobody has the ability toinfluence that from the sense of
well, we want this.
I mean, we've had clients we'vehad to stop working with
because they were read betweenthe lines here here.
They were extremely specificabout the types of candidates
they wanted, right in ways thatare as illegal as illegal gets.
(19:40):
The system doesn't allow thatyeah um, and and that goes
internally for us as well by thetime that the software provides
a thumbs up, we know that theycan do the job.
The packaging of the person isjust remarkable.
Dr. William Attaway (19:55):
You know, I think about you leading not
just your practice, but nowbuild my team and in both of
these cases, your teams, yourbusinesses, need you to lead at
a higher level today than wastrue five years ago, and five
years from now it's going to beeven more so.
Dr. Michael Neal (20:14):
Well, yes, and no, how do you?
Yeah, yeah, sorry, I cut youoff.
How do what?
Well I?
Dr. William Attaway (20:18):
was going to say how do you stay on top of
your game and level up with thenew leadership skills that are
required of you?
Dr. Michael Neal (20:26):
with a growing and high-performing team.
Yeah, that's the easy part.
My team's doing it.
That's the easiest part aboutall of this.
When now, this took some somereal learning on my part and and
acknowledgement of the factthat um and my role changed from
(20:49):
the frenzied nut job trying todrive a grizzled old bus full of
vagabonds and pirates andwhoever got onto the bus I mean
in the wrong seats thatbackfired all the time.
I mean, that was the originalstart.
It was just out of a movie outof a movie.
And now the team, the rightpeople on the bus.
(21:11):
They're in the right seats onthe bus.
I've got senior team memberswho are fantastic bus drivers
and my role has changed toproviding a map of where the bus
needs to go and quite simplygetting out of the way.
I mean, I got to make sure thebus has enough gas in it, the
(21:33):
resources that the team needs.
That's where that comes from,and when they need resources,
they get them as fast as humanlypossible.
There's no discussion about it.
These aren't people who ask forfrivolous things.
I'll give you an example.
Our practice manager needed acalculator.
She found one on Amazon for$9.95.
It's pink.
Why is it pink?
Because that way nobody's goingto take it.
(21:53):
It's not going to get relocatedin the office somewhere because
it's a pink calculator.
You know what I mean?
It's $10.
And just things like that.
These are A players.
These A players.
They only want to work with Aplayers.
They'll tolerate B players, butthey leave their job because of
C's or D's.
To work with A players.
They'll tolerate B players, butthey leave their job because of
(22:14):
C's or D's.
So you know, if you have a lotof turnover in your small
business, one of the easy waysto look at that and say, are
these the right people?
You know, are they the rightpeople for the jobs?
Is it a really tight fit forthe roles?
Because your A players, theywill run businesses.
Your A players, they will runbusinesses.
(22:37):
They will do stupendous amountsof things for a business.
I mean, the productivity can beridiculous.
I'll give you an example.
In software this is somethingthat is hard to believe, but
known in really, reallyhigh-performing software teams
that you can have an absolute,super-duper A++ player team
member that can be as productiveas 100 people on a team.
(23:01):
Those are the world-classsoftware people.
That's the delta betweenregular and extraordinarily high
performing people.
That, I think, is that's themost I've ever heard of, and so
very quick example of that alittle bit of a lightning rod
(23:22):
right now, but the the Teslafull self driving team that is
figuring out how to make thesecars drive by AI, has about two
300 people on it.
Another approach to do it wasVolkswagen did it.
They hired 3,000.
It's going nowhere nowhere atall, and they're laying off most
(23:44):
of those people.
So that was.
It wasn't a 10X investment.
It would have been much, muchhigher than that to keep that
many people going.
Plus all the managers, plus thethe.
You can just imagine the layerafter layer after layer to uh,
to 3 000 people.
They didn't put a dent in what200, 250, 300 people would do,
and that's the power of the besthow do you hold on to them?
Dr. William Attaway (24:11):
Because retention is a challenge,
particularly with super highperformers.
Dr. Michael Neal (24:15):
Well one.
You make sure that fit isfantastic.
You make sure that thecontribution that they make
every day is palpable and theyhave an impact.
It's not always about money.
People think like on theemployer side it's always about
money.
It's not always about money.
People think on the employerside it's always about money.
It's not.
In fact, I would say it's nowprobably the minority, as long
(24:38):
as you're competitive type thing.
But with those high performersyou provide the resources, you
provide crystal clear goals andyou get out of their way.
These are not people that willtolerate any level of spoon
feeding or just when you'reoverbearing or you're
(25:00):
micromanaging.
Oh my goodness, you want tolose top people Micromanage.
You don't have to wait a week,it'll happen in days know, that
is true, yeah, and that's hardfor a lot of folks in small
businesses.
But instead of micromanaging,what you do instead is you focus
on giving them the goals thatthey need to achieve, and the
(25:22):
most remarkable thing about itis you might think it's going to
take them a month.
This happened to me, somethingthat I expected about four or
five weeks.
Three days that's how long ittook him to finish it three days
.
My head was spinning,absolutely spinning.
It's remarkable.
Dr. William Attaway (25:39):
You're constantly learning and growing.
Is there a book that has made abig difference in your journey
that you would recommend to theleaders who are listening?
Hey, this is one you need totake a look at.
Dr. Michael Neal (25:49):
There are so many.
On what topic?
What general leadership?
Dr. William Attaway (25:58):
Business leadership, people leadership.
Dr. Michael Neal (26:00):
Who, not how, is fascinating.
That's by Dan Sullivan and BenHardy.
That's great bud Talks about.
You don't have to know how tosolve a problem, the how.
You don't focus on the how youfind the who who's already done
it, done it, solved your problemand get them rolling.
I mean, in a lot of ways that'swhat my team is to our clients.
They don't ever have to getinto the how the sausage is made
(26:21):
with hiring, they just have toyou know, we're very affordable.
Pay us we, we deliver theresults.
Um, that's a really good one.
Um, there's.
If you want to go to anotherapproach, think and Grow Rich.
That was written, I think, inthe early 1900s.
What was that fellow's name?
(26:42):
Napoleon Hill.
That book was mind-blowing.
First of all, it's not aboutthe money.
It really isn't about the money.
That title is almost a bit of amisnomer.
I've read that several times.
What I found is that, boy ohboy, very few things in that
(27:06):
book have changed over time.
It is as rock solid 100 plusyears later as it was then.
And the other part is oodlesand oodles of current business.
You know the proverbialself-help books come from that.
It is simply repackaged contentfrom Napoleon Hill's book with
a modern flair.
It is remarkable.
(27:26):
So if you want to read the onethat all the rest are standing
on, that's basically one of theunknown, unrecognized thinkers.
(27:51):
That really is fascinating.
And then, of course, jamesClear Atomic Habits.
If you really want to turn yourlife around, boy, just read
that book and dive in.
That's so good.
It's a cookbook for success.
In so many ways.
These are great.
This is fantastic.
Dr. William Attaway (28:10):
You have provided so much value today,
michael, I'm so grateful for yousharing your insight so freely
and about this remarkableprocess through Build my Team.
I know our listeners are goingto want to talk to you, find out
more about this, more about youand what you're doing, and
continue to learn from you whatis the best way for them to do
(28:30):
that?
Dr. Michael Neal (28:30):
Oh, it's easy BuildMyTeamcom.
At the top of the page there'sa schedule, a consultation call.
We do everything at a scheduledtime.
We don't want to wasteanybody's time.
On our client side, we dealwith some folks who time is
extraordinarily valuable andthat's how we meet them there
and the whole concept is easy.
You on the phone and, yes, tellus your secrets, you know, tell
(28:54):
us you're hiring skeletons.
Just open the closet, let allthe skeletons come out.
There's nothing to beembarrassed or ashamed or
concerned about.
We're not like that.
Our goal is to figure out,first of all, if we can help you
, if you believe in ourstrengths and talents approach
to finding these people, andthen start to whittle down the
(29:16):
types of folks you're lookingfor and really be very
definitive on that, and then getrocking and rolling.
I love it.
Dr. William Attaway (29:25):
We'll have that link in the show notes.
Dr. Michael Neal (29:27):
Thank you.
Dr. William Attaway (29:27):
Thank you so much for your time and your
wisdom today.
It was so much fun.
It is an honor today to have Dr Michael
Neal on the podcast.
Michael is the founder andchief executive officer of Build
my Team.
He's a practicing optometristin private practice in Hawley,
pennsylvania.
He founded Build my Team tosolve his own hiring struggles
in his practice by modeling howcompanies like Disney and the
(00:22):
Four Seasons hire.
The process worked so well.
He expanded it to help friendsand now Build my Team services
clients in eight differenthealthcare professions in over
40 states and Canada.
Dr Neal, I'm so glad you werehere.
Thanks for being on the show.
Dr. Michael Neal (00:40):
Ah, thanks so much.
I'm really excited to be here,William.
Intro / Outro (00:45):
Welcome to Catalytic Leadership, the
podcast designed to help leadersintentionally grow and thrive.
Here is your host author andleadership and executive coach,
dr William.
Dr. William Attaway (01:01):
Attaway, I would love for you to share some
of your story with ourlisteners, particularly around
your journey and yourdevelopment as a leader.
How'd you get started?
Dr. Michael Neal (01:14):
Oh boy, I'm originally Canadian, so I have a
program in Canada called ArmyCadets to thank for that.
It wasn't the military, butimagine Boy Scouts on steroids,
and I was in that program from12 years old to 18.
And it was magnificent forbuilding leadership in all kinds
of people I love that.
Dr. William Attaway (01:35):
How'd you get from there to optometry?
Dr. Michael Neal (01:39):
Wrong turn in Albuquerque, boy?
No, I was.
When I was living in ruralCanada, I was able to work in an
optometry practice and I'vebeen an entrepreneur my whole
life.
So I knew that I wanted to tobe in business for myself in
(01:59):
some form or another and I wasfascinated by the science behind
the visual system or another.
And I was fascinated by thescience behind the visual system
, not to mention had a greatopportunity with a fellow Dr
Gary Wedmore, shout out to youwho let me into his practice in
high school to help in hispractice, and that turned into
an absolute love for eye care.
(02:20):
And you know, I always knew Iwanted to serve others and I
loved healthcare because you gotto help people all day long.
It was really, really coolStill is.
Dr. William Attaway (02:29):
I love that .
Well, and as someone whobenefits from your science,
thank you.
Dr. Michael Neal (02:35):
Well, these aren't for show either, on my
face, so starting your ownpractice in running your own
business.
Dr. William Attaway (02:40):
You know a lot of people start something
because they're really good atproviding a product or a service
, so they your own business.
You know a lot of people startsomething because they're really
good at providing a product ora service, so they go into
business, they start a practice,but then, as they find success,
they have to hire people tohelp them with fulfillment and
serving their clients or theirpatients Well.
Leading leadership's adifferent skill and hiring is a
(03:02):
different skill.
Yet so you started your companyoutside of your practice
because of your hiringchallenges.
What happened there?
Dr. Michael Neal (03:14):
Boy.
It was started because of theunmitigated, catastrophic
disaster that we had in ourpractice in terms of this.
Imagine a merry-go-round, arevolving door from a horror
movie, where people just keptgetting on and shot off one
after another, after another.
(03:34):
I mean, I could go on and on.
It was really, really bad, andanybody who's had hiring issues
in their own small business canrelate to this.
We were doing it the wrong way.
We were just hiring the wrongway.
We didn't know what the rightway was.
We also didn't know what thewrong way was.
We just knew that the resultswe were getting were awful and
(03:55):
consistently awful.
If anything, we were consistent, consistently awful.
Dr. William Attaway (04:02):
Yeah Well, consistency matters.
Dr. Michael Neal (04:04):
Oh, we were fantastic at it.
10 out of 10.
Would not recommend.
Dr. William Attaway (04:09):
So what did you do that?
I mean a lot of people who arelistening, most people are, you
know either have hired, arehiring or will hire, and so,
like, what are some of theditches that you drove into?
Dr. Michael Neal (04:21):
Well, they were more chasms in a glacier
than a ditch, you name it.
I mean, the real problem thatwe had was we were focused on
resumes for hiring, and resumesdon't tell you what a person's
good at, yeah, and you stop andthink about that.
Well, yeah, actually they don't.
They just tell you a workhistory and you can be
(04:42):
guaranteed that the work historyis uh, embellished or nowadays,
you know, ai makes it up insome form or another.
Um, you know, you get.
You get resumes nowadays forentry-level positions that read
like like the person just uh,was running general electric,
you know, or gm, or things likethat.
(05:04):
And I'm not, I'm not, I'mreally not buying that.
But all joking aside, they'reterrible.
So we didn't have an alternative, we didn't have any other
better way, and I was inexecutive leadership at the time
.
I took a look at some of theirteams and boy, these were high
functioning teams.
So I thought, well, they can doit.
I obviously can't do it.
(05:26):
Let's figure out what they'redoing differently and let's
create a process for our ownpractice that would get me out
of this mess for eternity.
I mean, I wanted to get out ofthis mess in perpetuity, not
dabble in it, not otherwise.
You know, necessity is themother of invention.
Well, we had a whole bunch ofnecessity and ended up inventing
a really, really cool processthat solves the problem.
Dr. William Attaway (05:49):
So talk about that, describe the process
.
What did you come up with?
Dr. Michael Neal (05:53):
Well, remember , we wanted to solve this
forever, and I say we because mywife and I, we were having
horrible problems with this.
So the quick summary of theprocess is that we write the job
description and we post it outto over 20 different job boards.
So why 20 different job boards?
Well, you have to cast thewidest possible net 300 resumes
(06:14):
to go through.
You'll die of paper cuts thatnever heal before you get
anywhere with that.
Well, we ended up automatingthe system, so that doesn't
matter.
So we get all these people andimagine just kind of pouring
(06:35):
these candidates into the top ofa funnel, if you will.
What the system does is it willtext them five seconds after
they apply with a link to gothrough some assessments.
And the assessments are supereasy 10 minutes, designed to
find out what they're good atNot, hey, what are you good at,
(06:55):
because you can ask that in aninterview.
These are psychometricassessments that truly determine
this with a very high level ofaccuracy, and so we're looking
for what their natural strengthsand talents are, what they're
actually good at, and also whatthey're not good at.
So let's say, for example, aposition requires you to follow
(07:18):
a lot of process, be very detailoriented and have a high stress
tolerance.
Well, we know that.
We know that about the personbefore a human ever communicates
with them.
We have oodles and oodles ofinformation about these
candidates and the reason I goon and on about that is each
position that we're looking forand again this started, for our
practice is extremely specific.
(07:39):
So we want an extremelyspecific match to the position.
We don't want somebody who tothe position.
We don't want somebody's close,we don't want somebody who, um,
is or is far away.
The tighter the match betweenthe position that we have and
the natural skill set andtalents of the person that's
applying.
The longer they stay, thehappier they are and the more
(08:02):
productive they are.
That's the math.
You know the metaphorical math,the equation behind it, if you
will, and that's what we wereable to develop.
So what our software does afterthey go through these
assessments is it will tell uswith a thumbs up if the person
can do the job or not, if thefit is that tight, and then we
also send them a video interviewso that we can make sure the
(08:26):
rubber meets the road andmatches the road and there's no
surprises and stuff like that.
The video interview tells us.
You know, of course, theanswers to the questions, but
that's not the real thing we'relooking for.
We're looking for how theyanswer the questions and how
they would represent ourpractice or our clients'
practices, or our clients, smallbusiness businesses and then,
(08:47):
when that's all said and done,we have something that are our
software outputs, called aninsight report.
An insight report tells oureither our clients or whoever's
doing the hiring all kinds ofintangibles and tangibles and
measurable results about thecandidate.
(09:08):
So you're not looking at aresume.
In fact, the resumes aren'teven looked at.
They're not worth the time.
What you're looking at insteadis a report about what this
person is actually fantastic at.
And when you approach thingsthat way, you get an incredibly
tight match to the position.
As I said before, that's wherepeople are able to show up for
(09:31):
work, do a stupendous job, gohome and come back the next day
and do the same thing over andover again.
Extremely high performance.
That's how we isolate, that'sthe secret sauce between how we
isolate the extremely highperformers for these positions.
Dr. William Attaway (09:44):
So as you develop this and I imagine there
was some testing and adjustingand testing and adjusting in
your own practice what did yousee changed in the way that you
hire beyond just you know?
Here's the assessment, here'sthe link.
Let's evaluate, like how didthis change and benefit your
(10:05):
practice as a whole?
Dr. Michael Neal (10:07):
well, first off, I always questioned excuse
me, I questioned resumes, butyou know there was no way to
hire people about resumes.
Now that I've used the, theassessment like to naturally um,
find or find their naturalstrengths and talents, a resume
is nothing more than a shotgunapproach.
I mean, sooner or later you'regoing to hit something, but
there's no logic or rationale.
(10:28):
And, most importantly, william,there's no predictability.
We have incredibly highpredictability as to whether or
not a person's going to work out.
You know, 97% plus, and that'sdelivered by just massive
feedback loops to improve andimprove, and improve.
So what I see in the practice?
Well, the biggest thing on ateam level is that the people
(10:52):
who weren't good fits for theposition and weren't performing
exited and they were replaced byperformers.
So the team just leveled up andleveled up and just when I
thought it couldn't level upanymore, it went up a couple
levels until the point where nowthe team runs our practice and
the other side of it is on myown side personally, on my
(11:15):
wife's side, on the docs.
We show up, we go see patients,we do just a little bit of
extra stuff during the day andwe go home.
The most important thing aboutthis, for me personally, is the
completely different workday.
Completely different workday.
(11:40):
Stress has plummeted off acliff.
I didn't jump off the cliff,the stress jumped off the cliff,
which is fantastic because itwas close, 95% less stressful
day.
Not that anybody can measurethat, or maybe somebody can but
it's just joyous.
Now I go, I joke with the teammembers.
They're playing practical jokeson me.
The other day they switched myfood in the microwave.
Just fun, fun stuff.
(12:02):
This is fun.
You know, we get to help peopleall day and we laugh all day.
What's not to like?
Before it was hellacious, itwas awful, it was and it was,
and tomorrow would be differentbecause it was awful, and
tomorrow would be differentbecause we'd have to let
somebody go and just over andover.
So the best part about this isI'm not exaggerating.
I'm simply not exaggerating.
Dr. William Attaway (12:23):
I'm describing the work environment
that 30 years now and I have notheard anybody talk about this
like you have In both of ourconversations.
I have just been blown away bythis, and I mean the question
(12:45):
that many of our listeners maybe asking is the same question
I'm asking.
Dr. Michael Neal (12:51):
Is this real Is this possible, and so I'm
going to throw some caveats outhere.
This isn't for all positions onplanet Earth.
These are for entry-levelpositions junior management,
middle management, clerical,administrative-type positions.
We're not hiring doctors.
We're not hiring.
You're not going to have 300doctors apply for your job
(13:11):
anywhere in healthcare.
You know you're not going tohave 300 doctors apply for your
job anywhere in healthcare.
So we have we are extremelygood at these types of positions
and we don't pretend to doanything else.
So that's where the feedbackloop has just grown tighter and
tighter and tighter.
Imagine, you know, early on inthis process, um, my, my
(13:34):
operations manager, who'sfantastic.
He rated our team members whenhe started on it with the
traffic light red, yellow, green, nice, and we did not have a
lot of green.
No, it was.
It was yellow and red, red, red, red, red.
Um, now the red people, thegreat people, but they just
(13:56):
weren't happy, they weren'tworking in a great job for them,
they were just punching a clock, getting a paycheck.
It wasn't a good fit for them.
So they moved on and we helpedthem move on and helped some of
them get different positions, etcetera.
One of them was red in the jobthat we had her in and switched
her role to focus solely on herstrengths and she became the
(14:20):
greenest of all greens.
I mean, what?
Wow it?
It?
It was from exactly one end ofan arc of a pendulum to the
other.
She went from zero to hero sameperson.
We just asked her to be herselfall day long and she's
spectacular at it, absolutelyspectacular.
She's now our patient advocate.
(14:40):
Before she was working ourfront desk and all that empathy
that she had all day long and doanything for patients was a
disaster at the front desk andit is categorically phenomenal.
As a patient coordinator.
She will move mountains to getpatients care and she is
categorically phenomenal as apatient coordinator.
She will move mountains to getpatients care and she does every
day.
Same person.
Two different job roles.
Dr. William Attaway (15:02):
So that was my next question how has this
translated into what yourpatients experience?
Dr. Michael Neal (15:08):
Yeah, Happier people.
The Four Seasons is terrificwith that.
So is Disney.
You go there and you have thesepeople who smile at you all day
long.
Mickey's not going to come upto you at Disney and be like oh
man, I'm having a heck of a day,Although I got to say that'd be
(15:29):
one of the coolest pranks toplay on somebody ever right.
But they don't do that becausethey're professionals and these
are.
You get people to act like thatnot by telling them you must be
happy.
That doesn't work at all.
You get them to be happybecause they show up happy.
They're just happy people.
They're working in a fulfillingrole, they like what they do.
(15:50):
They're asked to be themselvesall day long.
This, conceptually, is notrocket science.
Where the really tricky partcomes in is how to identify
those people and get them intothose roles.
Dr. William Attaway (16:01):
And that's where the magic happens.
Just fascinating to me, youknow.
I think about the number ofpeople that I have hired or that
I have helped clients asthey're hiring, and how often
those hires end up failing, andso often it's around
expectations, the expectationsthat you set during the hiring
process.
We talk about that.
(16:21):
What you're doing with Build myTeam takes us to a different
level and I have not seenanybody else doing this.
This can change the staffingindustry.
Dr. Michael Neal (16:32):
It does take it to a different level.
But in reality we're not going.
We're not doing what folksgenerally think.
We're meeting the candidateswhere they're at.
Yes, okay, like I'm not askingyou in an interview, I'm not
asking you what you're good atin an interview, I don't care at
all.
Okay, because all I know forsure is you're going to tell me
(16:56):
whatever you sense.
I think I want to hear yes,okay, um, because your electric
bill needs to be paid and yourlandlord doesn't care about any
more excuses.
They want their money.
Okay, well, you know, is that ahard, cold reality?
Well, for a lot of candidates,that's the situation they're in.
So, with our approach, beforean interview comes or before a
(17:23):
person shows up for an interview, we already have the insight
report.
We know they can do the job orthey wouldn't have been sent
over no-transcript.
(18:01):
That to the interview process.
I mean, you're really trying todo everything blind and this
way you have all thatinformation in front of you and
it's highly, highly predictable.
Dr. William Attaway (18:15):
You know, a friend of mine has said for
years that the hiring process isone of the most deceptive
things we do, becauseeverybody's trying to put their
best foot forward and saying,like you said, the thing you
think the other person wants tohear from both sides of the
table.
Yeah, this seems to shortcircuit that it does up.
Dr. Michael Neal (18:33):
Well, it's a blind hiring process from our
side, because we don't care ifthe person's male or female,
black, white, pink, green,purple, none of that stuff
matters, it is.
You do this.
Performers come in all shapesand sizes and what happens for
our clients is they get used tothese high performers.
(18:55):
They don't care what thepackaging looks like, as long as
the person's presentable in abusiness.
I mean, there are some minimums, of course, but as long as
they're presentable, terrific.
So what we do is we get thatperson in front of our clients
through a completely blindprocess.
(19:16):
They don't have.
Nobody has the ability toinfluence that from the sense of
well, we want this.
I mean, we've had clients we'vehad to stop working with
because they were read betweenthe lines here here.
They were extremely specificabout the types of candidates
they wanted, right in ways thatare as illegal as illegal gets.
(19:40):
The system doesn't allow thatyeah um, and and that goes
internally for us as well by thetime that the software provides
a thumbs up, we know that theycan do the job.
The packaging of the person isjust remarkable.
Dr. William Attaway (19:55):
You know, I think about you leading not
just your practice, but nowbuild my team and in both of
these cases, your teams, yourbusinesses, need you to lead at
a higher level today than wastrue five years ago, and five
years from now it's going to beeven more so.
Dr. Michael Neal (20:14):
Well, yes, and no, how do you?
Yeah, yeah, sorry, I cut youoff.
How do what?
Well I?
Dr. William Attaway (20:18):
was going to say how do you stay on top of
your game and level up with thenew leadership skills that are
required of you?
Dr. Michael Neal (20:26):
with a growing and high-performing team.
Yeah, that's the easy part.
My team's doing it.
That's the easiest part aboutall of this.
When now, this took some somereal learning on my part and and
acknowledgement of the factthat um and my role changed from
(20:49):
the frenzied nut job trying todrive a grizzled old bus full of
vagabonds and pirates andwhoever got onto the bus I mean
in the wrong seats thatbackfired all the time.
I mean, that was the originalstart.
It was just out of a movie outof a movie.
And now the team, the rightpeople on the bus.
(21:11):
They're in the right seats onthe bus.
I've got senior team memberswho are fantastic bus drivers
and my role has changed toproviding a map of where the bus
needs to go and quite simplygetting out of the way.
I mean, I got to make sure thebus has enough gas in it, the
(21:33):
resources that the team needs.
That's where that comes from,and when they need resources,
they get them as fast as humanlypossible.
There's no discussion about it.
These aren't people who ask forfrivolous things.
I'll give you an example.
Our practice manager needed acalculator.
She found one on Amazon for$9.95.
It's pink.
Why is it pink?
Because that way nobody's goingto take it.
(21:53):
It's not going to get relocatedin the office somewhere because
it's a pink calculator.
You know what I mean?
It's $10.
And just things like that.
These are A players.
These A players.
They only want to work with Aplayers.
They'll tolerate B players, butthey leave their job because of
C's or D's.
To work with A players.
They'll tolerate B players, butthey leave their job because of
(22:14):
C's or D's.
So you know, if you have a lotof turnover in your small
business, one of the easy waysto look at that and say, are
these the right people?
You know, are they the rightpeople for the jobs?
Is it a really tight fit forthe roles?
Because your A players, theywill run businesses.
Your A players, they will runbusinesses.
(22:37):
They will do stupendous amountsof things for a business.
I mean, the productivity can beridiculous.
I'll give you an example.
In software this is somethingthat is hard to believe, but
known in really, reallyhigh-performing software teams
that you can have an absolute,super-duper A++ player team
member that can be as productiveas 100 people on a team.
(23:01):
Those are the world-classsoftware people.
That's the delta betweenregular and extraordinarily high
performing people.
That, I think, is that's themost I've ever heard of, and so
very quick example of that alittle bit of a lightning rod
(23:22):
right now, but the the Teslafull self driving team that is
figuring out how to make thesecars drive by AI, has about two
300 people on it.
Another approach to do it wasVolkswagen did it.
They hired 3,000.
It's going nowhere nowhere atall, and they're laying off most
(23:44):
of those people.
So that was.
It wasn't a 10X investment.
It would have been much, muchhigher than that to keep that
many people going.
Plus all the managers, plus thethe.
You can just imagine the layerafter layer after layer to uh,
to 3 000 people.
They didn't put a dent in what200, 250, 300 people would do,
and that's the power of the besthow do you hold on to them?
Dr. William Attaway (24:11):
Because retention is a challenge,
particularly with super highperformers.
Dr. Michael Neal (24:15):
Well one.
You make sure that fit isfantastic.
You make sure that thecontribution that they make
every day is palpable and theyhave an impact.
It's not always about money.
People think like on theemployer side it's always about
money.
It's not always about money.
People think on the employerside it's always about money.
It's not.
In fact, I would say it's nowprobably the minority, as long
(24:38):
as you're competitive type thing.
But with those high performersyou provide the resources, you
provide crystal clear goals andyou get out of their way.
These are not people that willtolerate any level of spoon
feeding or just when you'reoverbearing or you're
(25:00):
micromanaging.
Oh my goodness, you want tolose top people Micromanage.
You don't have to wait a week,it'll happen in days know, that
is true, yeah, and that's hardfor a lot of folks in small
businesses.
But instead of micromanaging,what you do instead is you focus
on giving them the goals thatthey need to achieve, and the
(25:22):
most remarkable thing about itis you might think it's going to
take them a month.
This happened to me, somethingthat I expected about four or
five weeks.
Three days that's how long ittook him to finish it three days
.
My head was spinning,absolutely spinning.
It's remarkable.
Dr. William Attaway (25:39):
You're constantly learning and growing.
Is there a book that has made abig difference in your journey
that you would recommend to theleaders who are listening?
Hey, this is one you need totake a look at.
Dr. Michael Neal (25:49):
There are so many.
On what topic?
What general leadership?
Dr. William Attaway (25:58):
Business leadership, people leadership.
Dr. Michael Neal (26:00):
Who, not how, is fascinating.
That's by Dan Sullivan and BenHardy.
That's great bud Talks about.
You don't have to know how tosolve a problem, the how.
You don't focus on the how youfind the who who's already done
it, done it, solved your problemand get them rolling.
I mean, in a lot of ways that'swhat my team is to our clients.
They don't ever have to getinto the how the sausage is made
(26:21):
with hiring, they just have toyou know, we're very affordable.
Pay us we, we deliver theresults.
Um, that's a really good one.
Um, there's.
If you want to go to anotherapproach, think and Grow Rich.
That was written, I think, inthe early 1900s.
What was that fellow's name?
(26:42):
Napoleon Hill.
That book was mind-blowing.
First of all, it's not aboutthe money.
It really isn't about the money.
That title is almost a bit of amisnomer.
I've read that several times.
What I found is that, boy ohboy, very few things in that
(27:06):
book have changed over time.
It is as rock solid 100 plusyears later as it was then.
And the other part is oodlesand oodles of current business.
You know the proverbialself-help books come from that.
It is simply repackaged contentfrom Napoleon Hill's book with
a modern flair.
It is remarkable.
(27:26):
So if you want to read the onethat all the rest are standing
on, that's basically one of theunknown, unrecognized thinkers.
(27:51):
That really is fascinating.
And then, of course, jamesClear Atomic Habits.
If you really want to turn yourlife around, boy, just read
that book and dive in.
That's so good.
It's a cookbook for success.
In so many ways.
These are great.
This is fantastic.
Dr. William Attaway (28:10):
You have provided so much value today,
michael, I'm so grateful for yousharing your insight so freely
and about this remarkableprocess through Build my Team.
I know our listeners are goingto want to talk to you, find out
more about this, more about youand what you're doing, and
continue to learn from you whatis the best way for them to do
(28:30):
that?
Dr. Michael Neal (28:30):
Oh, it's easy BuildMyTeamcom.
At the top of the page there'sa schedule, a consultation call.
We do everything at a scheduledtime.
We don't want to wasteanybody's time.
On our client side, we dealwith some folks who time is
extraordinarily valuable andthat's how we meet them there
and the whole concept is easy.
You on the phone and, yes, tellus your secrets, you know, tell
(28:54):
us you're hiring skeletons.
Just open the closet, let allthe skeletons come out.
There's nothing to beembarrassed or ashamed or
concerned about.
We're not like that.
Our goal is to figure out,first of all, if we can help you
, if you believe in ourstrengths and talents approach
to finding these people, andthen start to whittle down the
(29:16):
types of folks you're lookingfor and really be very
definitive on that, and then getrocking and rolling.
I love it.
Dr. William Attaway (29:25):
We'll have that link in the show notes.
Dr. Michael Neal (29:27):
Thank you.
Dr. William Attaway (29:27):
Thank you so much for your time and your
wisdom today.
It was so much fun.
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