June 24, 2025 • 29 mins
What if the very thing you think is helping your business grow is actually holding it back? In this episode, I sit down with David Dial to uncover the surprising truth about control—and why real leaders must break free from it in order to scale. For digital agency owners striving to build a sustainable, high-performing business, this conversation reveals that scaling doesn’t come from doing more—it comes from leading differently.
We dig into the leadership bottlenecks that silently stall growth: emotional reactivity, fear-based decision-making, and the inability to develop internal talent. If your team can’t move without you, this episode challenges the way you lead and offers a practical path toward scalable, self-managing teams. For agency owners stuck in the weeds and craving real momentum—this is the shift you've been avoiding, but can’t afford to ignore.
Books Mentioned:
- As a Man Thinketh by James Allen
- Playing to Win by Larry Wilson
Connect with David Dial:David is launching a new group coaching program to help emerging leaders in established SMBs unleash their team’s passion and performance, turning daily challenges into lasting success and well-being. Connect with him on LinkedIn to learn more and join early.
Join Dr. William Attaway on the Catalytic Leadership podcast as he shares transformative insights to help high-performance entrepreneurs and agency owners achieve Clear-Minded Focus, Calm Control, and Confidence.
- Free 30-Minute Discovery Call:
Ready to elevate your business? Book a free 30-minute discovery call with Dr. William Attaway and start your journey to success.
- Special Offer:
Get your FREE copy of Catalytic Leadership: 12 Keys to Becoming an Intentional Leader Who Makes a Difference.
Connect with Dr. William Attaway:
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
I am excited today to have David Dial on the podcast.
David is an author,professional speaker, trainer,
consultant and coach.
With over 30 years ofrecruiting and HR consulting
experience, he advises businessleaders on how to accomplish
ambitious endeavors.
David was the CEO of ahigh-growth company for two and
(00:20):
a half years, so he has anintimate knowledge of the
challenges and dilemmas thatbusiness leaders face.
He works with companies aroundthe US, canada and Western
Europe, working with leaders touncover obstacles, overcome
constraints, develop strategicplans and implement integrated
development programs.
The goal is to transform groupsof employees into
(00:45):
high-performance teams andrelease untapped human potential
.
David, I'm so glad you're here.
Thanks for being on the show.
Well, thanks for having me.
Speaker 3 (00:57):
Welcome to Catalytic Leadership, the podcast designed
to help leaders intentionallygrow and thrive.
Here is your host author andleadership and executive coach,
dr William Attaway.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
I would love to start with you sharing a little bit
of your story with our listeners, David, particularly around
your journey and yourdevelopment as a leader.
How did you get started?
Speaker 2 (01:26):
around your journey and your development as a leader
.
How did you get started?
Well, I mean, from anentrepreneurial point of view, I
guess my first job was I was amagician when I was about 12.
And I like magic and so I justwas doing it.
And then I was doing birthdayparties around the neighborhood
and getting paid for it.
That was kind of fun and that,you know, I kind of get that
idea of, hey, I can do somethingI really like and I can make
money doing it.
So I was about 15, 16 years oldand I was at a school dance and
(01:50):
I really thought the DJ was acool guy and so I convinced my
dad to co-sign a loan for me andI bought all the equipment to
become a mobile DJ.
So I did that into university,actually age, and I started a
couple of smaller companies inmy after university with some
friends.
But I, you know, I I was lookingfor what I wanted to do.
I I was in sales coming out ofuniversity and enjoyed that part
(02:14):
of it, but was really lookingfor, I guess, maybe I guess
something a little bit more interms of that and I wasn't
really sure.
It was kind of searching around.
So I just actually answered anad in the paper one day and I
became a recruiter, becauserecruiters are essentially
salespeople yeah, right, rightAt the very core of what they do
, on both sides the candidateside and the and the client side
(02:35):
.
And I, I, I became successfulat that.
I was running four branches fora company one in Portland, one
in Vancouver here in Canada, onein Calgary where I live, and
one in Ottawa down in easternCanada, and just through a
series of different events, Ijust decided that I could do
this on my own.
So I borrowed a desk and aphone, I started making phone
(02:55):
calls and I started makingplacements and I started
building a recruiting company.
We really built that company upover about five years With
employees.
We were really getting to astage where I thought we could
take it to a sort of a regionallevel, not just a local level.
And 9-11 happened and the bottomfell out of the recruiting
(03:15):
industry.
We went from record months ofrevenue to zero in under 30 days
.
So you know, big lesson learnedfrom running your own
organization like that is likeyou need to have a cushion, you
need to be able to have a fewmonths worth of you know funds
available so that you can payall your bills while you're
waiting for the market to comeback.
So that was a real decisionpoint for me.
(03:36):
It was a moment of not just amoment of choice, but a moment
of truth truth.
So really enjoyed what I wasdoing and what I discovered was
that, in order to be successfulas a recruiter, what I was doing
a lot of was working with myclients to ensure they had the
right onboarding, that theirmanagers were set for new
employees, and the more that Idid that, the lower the
(04:00):
replacement level went.
Let's put it that way, thesuccess level went up in terms
of people staying successfully,and I decided, you know what?
I think this is a really goodopportunity for me to pivot the
business in that direction,something I really enjoy.
Over about six months, I helpedall my employees find jobs with
other recruiting agencies ordoing something else, and became
basically a solopreneur at thatpoint and started building this
(04:23):
idea of how do I help, you know, building teams that accomplish
dreams, how do I work withcompanies to translate that
strategy that they've got, thatvision that they've got, into
results.
And so I started doing a lot ofwork in that vein from starting
from the HR point of view butthen getting a lot more into the
leadership aspect of it.
So how do leaders affect what'sgoing on?
(04:44):
Not just your managers, notjust your employees, but how do
we integrate the whole aspect ofthis from strategic to
operational to tactical?
And so I started doing that,started doing a lot of workshops
, started working with a lot ofteams.
So I started working withclients as a fractional VP of HR
, where I would basically embedmyself with them my longest
(05:06):
running client was about 14years and so I'll, you know, go
in and work with them, where Ican work side by side with their
managers and leaders and we canstart to develop processes and
practices for them to improve.
So that's a bit of my journeyover the last 30 years.
Speaker 1 (05:22):
So my goodness, so much of your work is.
It really illustrates thatthere is no wasted experience.
You know, as you have movedalong this, you know every piece
has really contributed to thenext chapter Right.
And into making you the person,the leader that you are today?
Speaker 2 (05:39):
It did, and you know there was a.
There was a, you know, in thefall of 2020, what is this now
so like?
In the fall of 2023, I was.
I was involved with a companyand I was an investor in this
company, an indoor verticalfarming company.
So you know growingstrawberries indoors without
sunlight, even when it's minus30 outside here in Canada, and
there was an opportunity wherethey asked me would you like to
(06:00):
become the CEO?
And I said OK, and so we tookthat from proof of concept right
through to the cusp ofcommercialization.
So that exposed me a lot to thefinance side.
You know raising money.
You know really having a reallyclear handle on the market that
we were dealing with and how weaccess the market.
So I learned a lot from that aswell.
I also learned that being theCEO is probably not the best
(06:22):
role for me, so I did enjoy it.
But I think what I learned wasthat I bring far more value when
I'm working within the team tohelp the team be stronger, as
opposed to having to be thevisionary leader of the team.
I can do that.
I proved to myself that I coulddo it.
But now, coming back, in thelast year and a half or last
year actually back to mypractice and working with
(06:44):
clients and new clients.
I'm really bringing that valueagain, and much quicker than I
used to.
Speaker 1 (06:49):
And I think you can speak into them now, into your
clients now, from a place of hey, I've been there, yeah, I know
what you're going through.
Speaker 2 (06:56):
And I think you've been here too.
I mean, at certain times whenyou're working with, you know,
leaders and managers and teams,you need to be the firm voice of
reason which is you know.
I think you're hiding, I thinkyou're let your fear overtaking
what you.
You know what you really wantto have happen here, right, and
I think that you know that'saffecting how you're making
(07:17):
decisions and choices and that'staking you down the wrong path
to where you want to go.
So if you really want to besuccessful, you need to, you
know, take the time to be ableto look at who am I as a leader,
what choices am I making as aleader, and is that really
supporting and serving thevision that we've got?
And sometimes you've got to dowhat scares scares you.
(07:38):
You just do yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:39):
Yeah, a hundred percent.
You move toward the best, youmove toward the bets, you move
through the fear, exactly.
Yeah, I love that.
So, thinking through some ofthe clients that you've served,
can you share a story or two ofhow you have served them and
some of the things you've seenas they move to the other side
of their fear?
Speaker 2 (07:57):
You know, I can think you know the longest serving
client I've had in 14 years.
You know I knew the owner verywell.
They were an insurancebrokerage had.
Probably about the time Istarted with them they were
probably about 50 people.
When we finished we were about105, 110.
He ended up selling to a muchlarger insurance company here in
Canada.
(08:17):
But at that time he said, look,I've taken this as far as I can
go, right, that's my skill set.
And what he wanted to do wasbuild an organization where, you
know, the team was running thecompany.
He didn't have to feel like hewas always inside running the
company right and being thatperson they always went to.
So it was like, okay, how canwe help this team to be able to
do it?
And they had some very strongpeople but they hadn't really
(08:41):
figured out the, I guess, thespectrum between management on
one side and leadership on theother, because they're two
different pieces.
Sometimes they meet moretowards the middle.
But sometimes when you'remanaging, you're executing and
you're looking at process andyou're looking at how things are
there and on leading the otherside of that, you're looking at
practices and experience andknowledge and how we're applying
that to the processes thatwe're using.
(09:01):
So how do we put these thingstogether?
So we, you know, the challengeand I think this is a challenge
that a lot of people in a lot ofdifferent industries face is
that you know there are lots ofexperienced people out there,
but do we necessarily want allof them Right?
So we want certain types ofpeople who fit our culture.
Just because you have 20 plusyears of whatever and whatever
you know company, that you mightnot be right for this company,
(09:23):
right?
The experience is not just whatyou need.
You also need that fit andwhere the company goes and their
buy-in.
So we started building a systemwhere we would attract who we
wanted from those variousexperienced people and at the
same time, we started building aprocess to say how would we
build our own very successfulinsurance brokers?
What are the processes, who arethe people, how would we train
them?
And it took us probably abouttwo and a half three years to do
(09:45):
that, but at the end of that wegot to a point where we no
longer felt like we were heldhostage to this sort of shortage
of experienced people out there.
We could bring in the ones whoreally bought into us.
But at the same time we couldgo and say, look, we can find a
really bright, reallyenthusiastic person who fits our
culture, who really wants thisas a career.
And now we have a way of sayingthis is where we would start
(10:06):
you, and then, within about twoyears a week you could be an
experienced broker who's reallyenjoying their career.
I love that so that, when youtalk about taking the people the
managers that I was dealingwith had a real fear of, you
know, am I smart enough, am Igood enough, and all those sorts
of things, and it was like,well, some of you some of them
were like you know, you've got20 years of experience doing
this.
You know you need to rely onthe fact that you know how to do
(10:29):
this right.
We just have to figure out theprocess for being able to train
other people on what you knowhow to do right and you know how
to do Right.
And we need to attract theright person who's going to take
, sort of soak that up andreally do something with it
Right, that's true, and soguiding them through those those
fears were.
You know, sometimes you justhave to do it.
Let it go and say I accept thefact that I feel I fear about
(10:55):
this or my emotions or whateverthe emotions I'm feeling are at
the time.
But if I accept that, Iunderstand how they affect me
and those around me and we canovercome that, let's just do
what needs to be done.
So, one step at a time, right.
Speaker 1 (11:10):
Do you ever find that clients push back on that?
Do you ever find that they sayI don't know if I can do that,
and really, struggle, it's over.
Speaker 2 (11:20):
Sometimes, overcoming certain fears is daunting,
right, because they're soingrained in who we are and how
long that we've had them, right,that we don't actually even
realize sometimes, like I'llhave clients who push back at me
who don't even realize thatthey're coming from a place of
fear.
Right, right, right, exactly.
Actually, they've got all theseself-defense mechanisms and all
these things put in place, thisarmor in place, to be able to
(11:43):
protect them from this thingthat they really fear, that they
are saying, look, I'm good, youdon't have to talk to me about
this, I'm fine.
And then what we do is, overtime, we go, but the results
that you're got a conflict with,you know, between what I want
to do and what I am doing.
So what is that?
(12:03):
And that usually comes to somesort of a fear.
So we can uncover that and say,look, it's okay, we're supposed
to be, we're supposed to haveemotions.
We, you know, the whole idea iswe have emotions, we aren't our
emotions, that's right.
Right, we know we have, we havefears and it's natural for us
to have fears because that's howwe've survived as a species.
Right Is being selective aboutthat.
(12:24):
But what am I buying into?
And I think.
I think at a point like that, westart getting into a discussion
of what is it that I'm makingup in my head?
That isn't true.
Yeah, that's holding me back.
I'm telling myself a storyinside of my head that I'm not
sharing with anybody else.
That's actually holding me backfrom this next step.
I've lived through it myself.
I've had to overcome a lot offears.
I've had to overcome a lot ofplaces where it was like, wow,
(12:47):
can I really do this?
And you know the short answerto that is well, if I do it and
I fail, it's about the same asme not doing it and being a
failure right now.
Which one is the best one?
Speaker 1 (12:58):
to do.
Speaker 2 (12:59):
That's so good.
I mean, as long as you know youdon't like hurt yourself.
Just put it that way, right,you know, if you're coming off a
, you know 200 story building orsomething.
Speaker 1 (13:07):
You know that's that's interesting.
I often talk with clients aboutthis too and I say that
emotions are necessarypassengers in your car, but you
should never let them drive,because you will end up in a
ditch 100% of the time.
That's not how we're intendedto use them.
I love how you said that youknow we are not our emotions.
(13:28):
We have them, but we are notthem.
Speaker 2 (13:34):
And when we start to get to the point where we can
accept that and then say look,if I can really do this, I mean
I run into, you know, especiallywith, say, founders, people who
are still running theirorganization.
They've been doing it for along time.
They're really they, you knowthey're.
They're so there's, you know,it's so tied to their identity
that what happens is when thingsaren't going their way, or
people aren't doing exactly whatthey want, that's where anger
starts to jump in.
(13:54):
Yep, right.
And when they start to getangry, of course that can
destroy relationships.
That really kills morale.
It does a lot of differentthings, but really that anger is
a way of them trying to protectthemselves from something that
they're really afraid of, right?
So if I can look at it and say,look and I've worked with
people who are like I'm notangry, I'm not an angry person
and it's like look, let's justgo back, no-transcript.
(14:45):
And then, second of all, howdoes that emotion affect those
around me?
Right?
So if you've got managers whoyou know don't delegate or won't
take risks or aren't doingthese things that you really
want them to, it's usuallybecause they're standing back a
little bit, because they know ifthey take the next step, you're
probably going to yell at them,or you're going to get mad at
them, or you're going to dosomething because you didn't do
it exactly the way they want it.
You wanted them to do it, andso they've learned this about
(15:07):
you.
And so now what you've reallydone is, by not understanding
how that emotion affects thatperson, you've stunted them a
little bit in terms of thembeing able to take a risk, or
being able to stretch themselves, or being able to do something
a little bit out of the box,right, because they don't want
to get yelled at.
Let's put it that way.
Speaker 1 (15:26):
So well said, when you're thinking about the
clients, that you work best with, the clients that you would
consider to be.
These are the ones that are thetarget, the ideal client avatar
.
How would you describe that?
If people are listening,they're like am I the right
person to work with David?
Speaker 2 (15:45):
How would you describe them.
I find this is you know, I'vedone a lot of work strategically
and strategic planning etcetera, but that's not really
the point of what I do is that Ican do that, but what I like to
be able to do, what I believe Ibring the most value to do, is
to work with that leader and saytell me what your vision is,
(16:05):
and we can.
It can be a full blownstrategic plan, or you've done a
lot of work on it, or it's justtell me, empty out your
thoughts of, in three to fiveyears, what does this place look
like?
That it doesn't look like today.
How can I help you to actuallytake and translate that vision
into something now that we canput into an operational,
implement, like implementableplan?
Right, and how can we then findout?
(16:27):
Do you have the right people tobe able to implement that plan?
A lot of times, the visionaryis not the person who should be
implementing anything.
That's true.
They shouldn't be right Becausethey get caught in the details
and they're too worried aboutthe outcome and they just don't.
They don't let people kind ofuse their strengths.
So you need a good person who'sgood at implementing, saying,
okay, great, if this is the planand this is the process and
where we want to go, I'm reallygood at being able to get this
(16:50):
done right.
When we start to attract thepeople and give them work on
their strengths and theircompetencies, to say, look at,
you're really good at this.
We really want you to push thisas far as you can go.
We're not going to worry aboutputting in all the stuff that
you don't have.
We just want to pull outeverything that you do have and
really help you grow and alongthe way, you're going to add
more skills and competencies.
So those clients who are able tosay I can describe my vision
(17:13):
and it means more than means somuch to me that I'm willing to
let go, Because it means so muchto me that I'm willing to let
go Because a lot of times theclients that I know that I won't
work with, I don't let workwith, are the ones who won't let
go Need to control everything,need to right.
So at that point then you know,then you need to make a
decision.
Maybe you need to just be on asmaller scale, where you make
less money.
(17:33):
But you can control everything.
There's nothing wrong with that, yeah, okay.
But if you want to scale and ifyou want to grow and if you
want this to be bigger, then youneed at some point to let go
and trust that things will getdone while you can go and do
other things.
So let's free you up to go todo what you're really good at,
while we have a team thatactually implements for you.
Speaker 1 (17:54):
I love that, david, let's talk about you for a
minute.
You know you have to lead yourpractice at a higher level today
, lead your clients and yourteam at a higher level today
than you did, you know, a coupleyears ago.
Right?
The same thing is going to betrue three, four, five years
from now, Right?
How do you stay on top of yourgame?
How do you level up with theleadership skills that your
(18:18):
clients and your team are goingto need you to have?
Speaker 2 (18:21):
And I started doing this maybe, gosh, it's got to be
like 20 years ago.
I stopped buying into theflavor of the month in terms of
what was the latest managementfad or somebody's interpretation
of whatever it was to be ableto you know, get you know.
Whatever it was to be able toyou know, get you know, huge
(18:42):
success or something Right, andlearning to trust myself in
terms of what I understood andwhat I knew.
Okay, who am I as a person anda leader?
So that was a good place tostart.
And then it was really goingback and trying to get to the,
the fundamental ideas of whatleadership is all about.
And there's just there arecertain tenants.
I mean this goes back toancient writing.
This goes back to stoicism.
This goes back to, you know,greek philosophy and Roman
(19:04):
philosophy All those are there.
It's really hard to go back andread that, though.
I mean you might've done thisright.
You go back and you can readMarcus Aurelius, you know
meditations and stuff.
It's hard to pull out theprinciples and then say how do I
apply these principles?
Right, because he was thinkingin a stoic manner, right?
So you can take that and Ithink one of the biggest ones.
I learned from that was thatdichotomy of thought.
(19:27):
You know, the dichotomy ofchoice.
I have a choice, what can Icontrol?
Sorry, the dichotomy of controlwhat can I control and what
can't I control?
If I can't control it, why do Ispend a lot of time there?
And we do spend a lot of timein our minds worrying about
things we have absolutely nocontrol over.
Yes, Focus on what you cancontrol and then you'll expand
(19:47):
your sphere of influence.
So that became sort of aguiding principle for me in
terms of understanding that.
And then I started reading someother ideas going down that
idea of the power of thought.
So one that I regularly go backto is James Allen, as man
thinketh.
And that's really about powerof thought and how you can just
think about, and it's reallyjust being aware of how do I
(20:10):
think, is it negative orpositive, and how does it affect
me and how does it help me grow.
And if you can do that everyday, thinking more positively
than negatively, then you'renormally going on the right
thing.
I also really enjoyed readingEllen Langer and mindfulness,
which was, you know, the idea.
And she was, you know, she's aprofessor, a psychology
professor at Harvard.
She was the first female everto get tenure in psychology at
(20:30):
Harvard and she did a lot ofpsychological research into
mindfulness.
Right and that.
And I really loved it, becausewhen people, when I start
talking about mindfulness,people think you gotta be a guru
and go meditate and do allsorts of stuff.
Right To be this mindfulnessperson.
And I really liked the way thatshe put it that you can really
understand which is, if you'renot mindful, then you're
mindless, and the idea is right.
(20:52):
And the idea is when you'remindless is that you're just
following the routines and thehabits and the things that go on
and that's how you operate.
You're kind of on autopilot.
When you become mindful, youstart to think about what am I
thinking about or how am Imaking decisions?
I slow down enough tounderstand.
That's being mindful, right,I'm being mindful about how I
operate in the world and reallygetting a better sense of what I
(21:14):
do.
So that idea of that mindfulnessfor me, especially now, after
you know, again, looking at thepractice side of it, after
you've got so much knowledge andexperience that you start to
let go of the fact that I'm notthe smartest person in the room
and I'm not trying to prove thatI'm the smartest person in the
room, right?
I'm just trying to help peopleto get to a place of have we
(21:34):
really thought carefully aboutthe decisions we're going to
make here?
Yeah, right, I love that.
And, you know, does that helpus get to the outcomes that you
want, right?
So you know, for me, again,it's just, it's sticking to
those, those basic tenets,helping people understand that
and then saying, look at, thenyou're allowed to be who you are
(21:55):
and what you're talented at andwhat you're brilliant at, and
we don't have to worry about awhole bunch of rules or you know
slick, you know sort of ideasabout.
There are people writing somebook about hey, here's the 15
steps to success.
It's like you know.
You don't have to do that.
You can use your own brillianceand your own talent, based on
some really strong principles,and be an awesome leader.
So true.
Speaker 1 (22:13):
So much of it is really about asking the right
questions, like you'redescribing.
Yeah, I mean, that's how youget the right answers.
You know so many of us areasking the wrong questions and
it just takes us askew.
Yeah, I think that's so wellsaid.
So, thinking about yourentrepreneurial journey, you
know you've had a lot ofexperiences along the way Right,
that kid who was doing you knowthe DJ thing magic all the way
(22:39):
to today.
Some people might look at youfrom the outside and look at
your highlight reel and say, ohman, david, his journey's just
been up and to the right.
He's never really struggled,he's never really had the
challenges that I deal with asan entrepreneur.
If somebody were to say that toyou, how would you respond to
(23:02):
that?
Speaker 2 (23:03):
Well, you know, it's the ups and downs.
Everyone wants to look at youknow, what is success?
Right, and how do we definesuccess?
And that's usually sort ofbased on things that are
external to whoever who you are.
It's usually based on you know,what kind of job do I have?
How much money do I make?
What kind of job do I have?
How much money do I make?
What kind of office do I have?
What you know, how do I have atrope free spouse?
Do I?
You know, what kind of car do Idrive?
All those things which are soexternal.
(23:23):
And they they tend to say, hey,wow, you know.
Now I know guys who you know,you meet them.
And they, you know, they get,they're fabulously wealthy, they
got.
You get to know them.
You find out that they'reprofoundly some of the most
depressed and unfulfilled peoplethat you're ever going to find,
because they're not actuallygetting what they need by this
(23:43):
idea of success.
Okay.
And so I look at it sometimesand I say, well, you know, I've,
I gauge success sometimes onhow well you're able to deal
with adversity and struggle.
So when people say that it'slike no, I, this just didn't
happen overnight.
I, I struggled, like I said, Iborrowed a desk and a phone.
You know my, I had our.
(24:04):
We had a son who was aboutseven months old.
My wife was pregnant with oursecond son.
You know this was ourlivelihood.
We had to pay the mortgage.
We, you know, we were at thatstage in our life and it was
like, okay, I've got to likereally go through this.
And it was a struggle.
I mean, you don't just pick upa phone and start phoning people
and all of a sudden you'remaking a lot of money.
It took a lot of effort, ittook a lot of that.
You know, when we got to acertain point and 9-11 happened
(24:26):
again, you know, we went fromrecord months of revenue to zero
in 30 days and I didn't have,and I hadn't thought about
putting the money aside to beable to run the business for six
months or a year, right.
So a good management consultingcompany, whatever it is, will
always have a contingency fundto be able to weather any storms
, because there's always ups anddowns, right.
So you know that wasn't so great.
(24:47):
I had to find jobs for all mypeople.
I had to pivot the wholebusiness.
I had to, you know, put myhouse on the line.
I had to do a bunch of thingsto keep the business going and
you know there were times.
You know there were times, eventhen, when you know it's like,
if, if, you want to be a realentrepreneur, right, this is,
this is.
This is one of my, this is oneof my areas that you can know
you're a real entrepreneur whenyou cash advance your visa for
(25:10):
payroll, are you that committed?
Wow, right, and I can tell you,I cash advance my visa to cover
payroll.
So you know cashflow and it'sunderstanding those things, and
you know you don't.
You know you get to a certainlevel in a certain time where
people go, wow, you know, like,how did you learn this?
And it was like, well, Ilearned it by struggling, I
(25:30):
learned it by going throughperiods of, you know, profound
disappointment at times, right,that things weren't going my way
.
But the idea is, is that's notwhat defines you?
Speaker 1 (25:46):
It's what you do about it.
That actually defines you sogood.
Right, david?
Let's say you had the abilityto go back, given all the things
that you know.
Now go back and talk to thatnine-year-old kid Right.
What would you love to go backand talk to that nine-year-old
kid Right?
What?
Speaker 2 (26:03):
would you love to go back and tell yourself Well, I
think it's what I've beguntelling my 61-year-old self, and
that's just be in the momentand don't define yourself by
your past, because this is thepast, you can't do anything
about it, you can't change it,and don't live in the future.
Don't live in the what ifs orwhen this happens.
(26:24):
Or you know, when I do this,I'm going to be able to do that
and I'm going to be successfulwhen I, you know, do this.
It's like have goals, have yourplan, have what you want to do
in terms of your vision, butthen bring back yourself every
day into the moment and say whatis it I can be doing right now,
today, to help me advancetowards that?
Okay, what am I doing right inthis moment and who am I right
(26:47):
in this moment?
And that's good, except thatperson.
Good, right.
And that's what I would tell mynine-year-old self.
It's what I.
It's what I would tell myselftoday.
It's not what I was tellingmyself in my 30s and my 40s.
I can tell you that much, workharder, do more.
Speaker 1 (26:59):
Exactly, with less.
Speaker 2 (27:07):
That's right.
Speaker 1 (27:08):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (27:26):
That is a common refrain.
I think at that point You'relike me.
You're a continual learner,You're always learning, You're
always growing Is there a bookthat has made a really big
difference?
I think that if you're lookingfor a team I don't even know if
it's in print anymore, but itwas called Playing to Win and I
think it was by a guy namedLarry Wilson.
(27:46):
Larry Wilson was a reallysuccessful insurance salesman,
et cetera, became a motivationalspeaker, ended up building a
place it was called Pecos RiverI think, and it was a team
facilitation kind of center.
But he started doing a lot ofwork with teams and he wrote
this book, I think with his son,called Playing to Win, and it
was a lot of what we just sortof encapsulated in this
conversation and he had actuallyfound a way to kind of bring it
(28:08):
all together to be able to saylook are we playing to win or
are we playing not to lose?
And that's fantastic.
Oh, are we playing to win orwe're playing just not to lose,
like we're just going arounddoing cya all day, we're not
taking any risks, we're notdoing whatever you know we can.
Sometimes we can say we'replaying to win, so I got to go
and take a risk, I got to tryand do something different, or
(28:29):
or whatever it is, so that wecan get to the next stage.
Um, that was a good book and Ithink I really that was sort of
early in my, in my facilitationdays and running workshops and
so I found that book to be veryhelpful in terms of just some
core concepts of working withteams.
Speaker 1 (28:47):
I love that.
I haven't read that.
I'm going to see if I can get acopy of that.
Speaker 2 (28:50):
Yeah, I don't, I can't, I don't even know.
I've got a copy but I don'tknow if it's in print anymore.
It might be, but yeah, playing,playing to win Larry Wilson.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (28:58):
David, this has been a fascinating and insightful
conversation.
I'm so grateful for you sharingso generously today of your
time and the insight that you'vegained along the way.
I know our listeners are goingto want to stay connected to you
and learn more about whatyou're doing.
What's the best way for them todo that?
Speaker 2 (29:16):
I think right now, if you look me up on LinkedIn, you
follow me on LinkedIn, connectwith me on LinkedIn.
That's the best way for them todo that.
I think right now, if you lookme up on LinkedIn, you follow me
on LinkedIn, connect with me onLinkedIn.
That's the best way to find me.
Obviously, we've got a website,but LinkedIn is where you'll
see stuff that I'm posting,where you're going to see
different things that I'm offersat different things for free or
whatever you know resources, etcetera, and just yeah, I'll be
(29:37):
doing some.
I am excited today to have David Dial on the podcast.
David is an author,professional speaker, trainer,
consultant and coach.
With over 30 years ofrecruiting and HR consulting
experience, he advises businessleaders on how to accomplish
ambitious endeavors.
David was the CEO of ahigh-growth company for two and
(00:20):
a half years, so he has anintimate knowledge of the
challenges and dilemmas thatbusiness leaders face.
He works with companies aroundthe US, canada and Western
Europe, working with leaders touncover obstacles, overcome
constraints, develop strategicplans and implement integrated
development programs.
The goal is to transform groupsof employees into
(00:45):
high-performance teams andrelease untapped human potential
.
David, I'm so glad you're here.
Thanks for being on the show.
Well, thanks for having me.
Speaker 3 (00:57):
Welcome to Catalytic Leadership, the podcast designed
to help leaders intentionallygrow and thrive.
Here is your host author andleadership and executive coach,
dr William Attaway.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
I would love to start with you sharing a little bit
of your story with our listeners, David, particularly around
your journey and yourdevelopment as a leader.
How did you get started?
Speaker 2 (01:26):
around your journey and your development as a leader
.
How did you get started?
Well, I mean, from anentrepreneurial point of view, I
guess my first job was I was amagician when I was about 12.
And I like magic and so I justwas doing it.
And then I was doing birthdayparties around the neighborhood
and getting paid for it.
That was kind of fun and that,you know, I kind of get that
idea of, hey, I can do somethingI really like and I can make
money doing it.
So I was about 15, 16 years oldand I was at a school dance and
(01:50):
I really thought the DJ was acool guy and so I convinced my
dad to co-sign a loan for me andI bought all the equipment to
become a mobile DJ.
So I did that into university,actually age, and I started a
couple of smaller companies inmy after university with some
friends.
But I, you know, I I was lookingfor what I wanted to do.
I I was in sales coming out ofuniversity and enjoyed that part
(02:14):
of it, but was really lookingfor, I guess, maybe I guess
something a little bit more interms of that and I wasn't
really sure.
It was kind of searching around.
So I just actually answered anad in the paper one day and I
became a recruiter, becauserecruiters are essentially
salespeople yeah, right, rightAt the very core of what they do
, on both sides the candidateside and the and the client side
(02:35):
.
And I, I, I became successfulat that.
I was running four branches fora company one in Portland, one
in Vancouver here in Canada, onein Calgary where I live, and
one in Ottawa down in easternCanada, and just through a
series of different events, Ijust decided that I could do
this on my own.
So I borrowed a desk and aphone, I started making phone
(02:55):
calls and I started makingplacements and I started
building a recruiting company.
We really built that company upover about five years With
employees.
We were really getting to astage where I thought we could
take it to a sort of a regionallevel, not just a local level.
And 9-11 happened and the bottomfell out of the recruiting
(03:15):
industry.
We went from record months ofrevenue to zero in under 30 days
.
So you know, big lesson learnedfrom running your own
organization like that is likeyou need to have a cushion, you
need to be able to have a fewmonths worth of you know funds
available so that you can payall your bills while you're
waiting for the market to comeback.
So that was a real decisionpoint for me.
(03:36):
It was a moment of not just amoment of choice, but a moment
of truth truth.
So really enjoyed what I wasdoing and what I discovered was
that, in order to be successfulas a recruiter, what I was doing
a lot of was working with myclients to ensure they had the
right onboarding, that theirmanagers were set for new
employees, and the more that Idid that, the lower the
(04:00):
replacement level went.
Let's put it that way, thesuccess level went up in terms
of people staying successfully,and I decided, you know what?
I think this is a really goodopportunity for me to pivot the
business in that direction,something I really enjoy.
Over about six months, I helpedall my employees find jobs with
other recruiting agencies ordoing something else, and became
basically a solopreneur at thatpoint and started building this
(04:23):
idea of how do I help, you know, building teams that accomplish
dreams, how do I work withcompanies to translate that
strategy that they've got, thatvision that they've got, into
results.
And so I started doing a lot ofwork in that vein from starting
from the HR point of view butthen getting a lot more into the
leadership aspect of it.
So how do leaders affect what'sgoing on?
(04:44):
Not just your managers, notjust your employees, but how do
we integrate the whole aspect ofthis from strategic to
operational to tactical?
And so I started doing that,started doing a lot of workshops
, started working with a lot ofteams.
So I started working withclients as a fractional VP of HR
, where I would basically embedmyself with them my longest
(05:06):
running client was about 14years and so I'll, you know, go
in and work with them, where Ican work side by side with their
managers and leaders and we canstart to develop processes and
practices for them to improve.
So that's a bit of my journeyover the last 30 years.
Speaker 1 (05:22):
So my goodness, so much of your work is.
It really illustrates thatthere is no wasted experience.
You know, as you have movedalong this, you know every piece
has really contributed to thenext chapter Right.
And into making you the person,the leader that you are today?
Speaker 2 (05:39):
It did, and you know there was a.
There was a, you know, in thefall of 2020, what is this now
so like?
In the fall of 2023, I was.
I was involved with a companyand I was an investor in this
company, an indoor verticalfarming company.
So you know growingstrawberries indoors without
sunlight, even when it's minus30 outside here in Canada, and
there was an opportunity wherethey asked me would you like to
(06:00):
become the CEO?
And I said OK, and so we tookthat from proof of concept right
through to the cusp ofcommercialization.
So that exposed me a lot to thefinance side.
You know raising money.
You know really having a reallyclear handle on the market that
we were dealing with and how weaccess the market.
So I learned a lot from that aswell.
I also learned that being theCEO is probably not the best
(06:22):
role for me, so I did enjoy it.
But I think what I learned wasthat I bring far more value when
I'm working within the team tohelp the team be stronger, as
opposed to having to be thevisionary leader of the team.
I can do that.
I proved to myself that I coulddo it.
But now, coming back, in thelast year and a half or last
year actually back to mypractice and working with
(06:44):
clients and new clients.
I'm really bringing that valueagain, and much quicker than I
used to.
Speaker 1 (06:49):
And I think you can speak into them now, into your
clients now, from a place of hey, I've been there, yeah, I know
what you're going through.
Speaker 2 (06:56):
And I think you've been here too.
I mean, at certain times whenyou're working with, you know,
leaders and managers and teams,you need to be the firm voice of
reason which is you know.
I think you're hiding, I thinkyou're let your fear overtaking
what you.
You know what you really wantto have happen here, right, and
I think that you know that'saffecting how you're making
(07:17):
decisions and choices and that'staking you down the wrong path
to where you want to go.
So if you really want to besuccessful, you need to, you
know, take the time to be ableto look at who am I as a leader,
what choices am I making as aleader, and is that really
supporting and serving thevision that we've got?
And sometimes you've got to dowhat scares scares you.
(07:38):
You just do yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:39):
Yeah, a hundred percent.
You move toward the best, youmove toward the bets, you move
through the fear, exactly.
Yeah, I love that.
So, thinking through some ofthe clients that you've served,
can you share a story or two ofhow you have served them and
some of the things you've seenas they move to the other side
of their fear?
Speaker 2 (07:57):
You know, I can think you know the longest serving
client I've had in 14 years.
You know I knew the owner verywell.
They were an insurancebrokerage had.
Probably about the time Istarted with them they were
probably about 50 people.
When we finished we were about105, 110.
He ended up selling to a muchlarger insurance company here in
Canada.
(08:17):
But at that time he said, look,I've taken this as far as I can
go, right, that's my skill set.
And what he wanted to do wasbuild an organization where, you
know, the team was running thecompany.
He didn't have to feel like hewas always inside running the
company right and being thatperson they always went to.
So it was like, okay, how canwe help this team to be able to
do it?
And they had some very strongpeople but they hadn't really
(08:41):
figured out the, I guess, thespectrum between management on
one side and leadership on theother, because they're two
different pieces.
Sometimes they meet moretowards the middle.
But sometimes when you'remanaging, you're executing and
you're looking at process andyou're looking at how things are
there and on leading the otherside of that, you're looking at
practices and experience andknowledge and how we're applying
that to the processes thatwe're using.
(09:01):
So how do we put these thingstogether?
So we, you know, the challengeand I think this is a challenge
that a lot of people in a lot ofdifferent industries face is
that you know there are lots ofexperienced people out there,
but do we necessarily want allof them Right?
So we want certain types ofpeople who fit our culture.
Just because you have 20 plusyears of whatever and whatever
you know company, that you mightnot be right for this company,
(09:23):
right?
The experience is not just whatyou need.
You also need that fit andwhere the company goes and their
buy-in.
So we started building a systemwhere we would attract who we
wanted from those variousexperienced people and at the
same time, we started building aprocess to say how would we
build our own very successfulinsurance brokers?
What are the processes, who arethe people, how would we train
them?
And it took us probably abouttwo and a half three years to do
(09:45):
that, but at the end of that wegot to a point where we no
longer felt like we were heldhostage to this sort of shortage
of experienced people out there.
We could bring in the ones whoreally bought into us.
But at the same time we couldgo and say, look, we can find a
really bright, reallyenthusiastic person who fits our
culture, who really wants thisas a career.
And now we have a way of sayingthis is where we would start
(10:06):
you, and then, within about twoyears a week you could be an
experienced broker who's reallyenjoying their career.
I love that so that, when youtalk about taking the people the
managers that I was dealingwith had a real fear of, you
know, am I smart enough, am Igood enough, and all those sorts
of things, and it was like,well, some of you some of them
were like you know, you've got20 years of experience doing
this.
You know you need to rely onthe fact that you know how to do
(10:29):
this right.
We just have to figure out theprocess for being able to train
other people on what you knowhow to do right and you know how
to do Right.
And we need to attract theright person who's going to take
, sort of soak that up andreally do something with it
Right, that's true, and soguiding them through those those
fears were.
You know, sometimes you justhave to do it.
Let it go and say I accept thefact that I feel I fear about
(10:55):
this or my emotions or whateverthe emotions I'm feeling are at
the time.
But if I accept that, Iunderstand how they affect me
and those around me and we canovercome that, let's just do
what needs to be done.
So, one step at a time, right.
Speaker 1 (11:10):
Do you ever find that clients push back on that?
Do you ever find that they sayI don't know if I can do that,
and really, struggle, it's over.
Speaker 2 (11:20):
Sometimes, overcoming certain fears is daunting,
right, because they're soingrained in who we are and how
long that we've had them, right,that we don't actually even
realize sometimes, like I'llhave clients who push back at me
who don't even realize thatthey're coming from a place of
fear.
Right, right, right, exactly.
Actually, they've got all theseself-defense mechanisms and all
these things put in place, thisarmor in place, to be able to
(11:43):
protect them from this thingthat they really fear, that they
are saying, look, I'm good, youdon't have to talk to me about
this, I'm fine.
And then what we do is, overtime, we go, but the results
that you're got a conflict with,you know, between what I want
to do and what I am doing.
So what is that?
(12:03):
And that usually comes to somesort of a fear.
So we can uncover that and say,look, it's okay, we're supposed
to be, we're supposed to haveemotions.
We, you know, the whole idea iswe have emotions, we aren't our
emotions, that's right.
Right, we know we have, we havefears and it's natural for us
to have fears because that's howwe've survived as a species.
Right Is being selective aboutthat.
(12:24):
But what am I buying into?
And I think.
I think at a point like that, westart getting into a discussion
of what is it that I'm makingup in my head?
That isn't true.
Yeah, that's holding me back.
I'm telling myself a storyinside of my head that I'm not
sharing with anybody else.
That's actually holding me backfrom this next step.
I've lived through it myself.
I've had to overcome a lot offears.
I've had to overcome a lot ofplaces where it was like, wow,
(12:47):
can I really do this?
And you know the short answerto that is well, if I do it and
I fail, it's about the same asme not doing it and being a
failure right now.
Which one is the best one?
Speaker 1 (12:58):
to do.
Speaker 2 (12:59):
That's so good.
I mean, as long as you know youdon't like hurt yourself.
Just put it that way, right,you know, if you're coming off a
, you know 200 story building orsomething.
Speaker 1 (13:07):
You know that's that's interesting.
I often talk with clients aboutthis too and I say that
emotions are necessarypassengers in your car, but you
should never let them drive,because you will end up in a
ditch 100% of the time.
That's not how we're intendedto use them.
I love how you said that youknow we are not our emotions.
(13:28):
We have them, but we are notthem.
Speaker 2 (13:34):
And when we start to get to the point where we can
accept that and then say look,if I can really do this, I mean
I run into, you know, especiallywith, say, founders, people who
are still running theirorganization.
They've been doing it for along time.
They're really they, you knowthey're.
They're so there's, you know,it's so tied to their identity
that what happens is when thingsaren't going their way, or
people aren't doing exactly whatthey want, that's where anger
starts to jump in.
(13:54):
Yep, right.
And when they start to getangry, of course that can
destroy relationships.
That really kills morale.
It does a lot of differentthings, but really that anger is
a way of them trying to protectthemselves from something that
they're really afraid of, right?
So if I can look at it and say,look and I've worked with
people who are like I'm notangry, I'm not an angry person
and it's like look, let's justgo back, no-transcript.
(14:45):
And then, second of all, howdoes that emotion affect those
around me?
Right?
So if you've got managers whoyou know don't delegate or won't
take risks or aren't doingthese things that you really
want them to, it's usuallybecause they're standing back a
little bit, because they know ifthey take the next step, you're
probably going to yell at them,or you're going to get mad at
them, or you're going to dosomething because you didn't do
it exactly the way they want it.
You wanted them to do it, andso they've learned this about
(15:07):
you.
And so now what you've reallydone is, by not understanding
how that emotion affects thatperson, you've stunted them a
little bit in terms of thembeing able to take a risk, or
being able to stretch themselves, or being able to do something
a little bit out of the box,right, because they don't want
to get yelled at.
Let's put it that way.
Speaker 1 (15:26):
So well said, when you're thinking about the
clients, that you work best with, the clients that you would
consider to be.
These are the ones that are thetarget, the ideal client avatar
.
How would you describe that?
If people are listening,they're like am I the right
person to work with David?
Speaker 2 (15:45):
How would you describe them.
I find this is you know, I'vedone a lot of work strategically
and strategic planning etcetera, but that's not really
the point of what I do is that Ican do that, but what I like to
be able to do, what I believe Ibring the most value to do, is
to work with that leader and saytell me what your vision is,
(16:05):
and we can.
It can be a full blownstrategic plan, or you've done a
lot of work on it, or it's justtell me, empty out your
thoughts of, in three to fiveyears, what does this place look
like?
That it doesn't look like today.
How can I help you to actuallytake and translate that vision
into something now that we canput into an operational,
implement, like implementableplan?
Right, and how can we then findout?
(16:27):
Do you have the right people tobe able to implement that plan?
A lot of times, the visionaryis not the person who should be
implementing anything.
That's true.
They shouldn't be right Becausethey get caught in the details
and they're too worried aboutthe outcome and they just don't.
They don't let people kind ofuse their strengths.
So you need a good person who'sgood at implementing, saying,
okay, great, if this is the planand this is the process and
where we want to go, I'm reallygood at being able to get this
(16:50):
done right.
When we start to attract thepeople and give them work on
their strengths and theircompetencies, to say, look at,
you're really good at this.
We really want you to push thisas far as you can go.
We're not going to worry aboutputting in all the stuff that
you don't have.
We just want to pull outeverything that you do have and
really help you grow and alongthe way, you're going to add
more skills and competencies.
So those clients who are able tosay I can describe my vision
(17:13):
and it means more than means somuch to me that I'm willing to
let go, Because it means so muchto me that I'm willing to let
go Because a lot of times theclients that I know that I won't
work with, I don't let workwith, are the ones who won't let
go Need to control everything,need to right.
So at that point then you know,then you need to make a
decision.
Maybe you need to just be on asmaller scale, where you make
less money.
(17:33):
But you can control everything.
There's nothing wrong with that, yeah, okay.
But if you want to scale and ifyou want to grow and if you
want this to be bigger, then youneed at some point to let go
and trust that things will getdone while you can go and do
other things.
So let's free you up to go todo what you're really good at,
while we have a team thatactually implements for you.
Speaker 1 (17:54):
I love that, david, let's talk about you for a
minute.
You know you have to lead yourpractice at a higher level today
, lead your clients and yourteam at a higher level today
than you did, you know, a coupleyears ago.
Right?
The same thing is going to betrue three, four, five years
from now, Right?
How do you stay on top of yourgame?
How do you level up with theleadership skills that your
(18:18):
clients and your team are goingto need you to have?
Speaker 2 (18:21):
And I started doing this maybe, gosh, it's got to be
like 20 years ago.
I stopped buying into theflavor of the month in terms of
what was the latest managementfad or somebody's interpretation
of whatever it was to be ableto you know, get you know.
Whatever it was to be able toyou know, get you know, huge
(18:42):
success or something Right, andlearning to trust myself in
terms of what I understood andwhat I knew.
Okay, who am I as a person anda leader?
So that was a good place tostart.
And then it was really goingback and trying to get to the,
the fundamental ideas of whatleadership is all about.
And there's just there arecertain tenants.
I mean this goes back toancient writing.
This goes back to stoicism.
This goes back to, you know,greek philosophy and Roman
(19:04):
philosophy All those are there.
It's really hard to go back andread that, though.
I mean you might've done thisright.
You go back and you can readMarcus Aurelius, you know
meditations and stuff.
It's hard to pull out theprinciples and then say how do I
apply these principles?
Right, because he was thinkingin a stoic manner, right?
So you can take that and Ithink one of the biggest ones.
I learned from that was thatdichotomy of thought.
(19:27):
You know, the dichotomy ofchoice.
I have a choice, what can Icontrol?
Sorry, the dichotomy of controlwhat can I control and what
can't I control?
If I can't control it, why do Ispend a lot of time there?
And we do spend a lot of timein our minds worrying about
things we have absolutely nocontrol over.
Yes, Focus on what you cancontrol and then you'll expand
(19:47):
your sphere of influence.
So that became sort of aguiding principle for me in
terms of understanding that.
And then I started reading someother ideas going down that
idea of the power of thought.
So one that I regularly go backto is James Allen, as man
thinketh.
And that's really about powerof thought and how you can just
think about, and it's reallyjust being aware of how do I
(20:10):
think, is it negative orpositive, and how does it affect
me and how does it help me grow.
And if you can do that everyday, thinking more positively
than negatively, then you'renormally going on the right
thing.
I also really enjoyed readingEllen Langer and mindfulness,
which was, you know, the idea.
And she was, you know, she's aprofessor, a psychology
professor at Harvard.
She was the first female everto get tenure in psychology at
(20:30):
Harvard and she did a lot ofpsychological research into
mindfulness.
Right and that.
And I really loved it, becausewhen people, when I start
talking about mindfulness,people think you gotta be a guru
and go meditate and do allsorts of stuff.
Right To be this mindfulnessperson.
And I really liked the way thatshe put it that you can really
understand which is, if you'renot mindful, then you're
mindless, and the idea is right.
(20:52):
And the idea is when you'remindless is that you're just
following the routines and thehabits and the things that go on
and that's how you operate.
You're kind of on autopilot.
When you become mindful, youstart to think about what am I
thinking about or how am Imaking decisions?
I slow down enough tounderstand.
That's being mindful, right,I'm being mindful about how I
operate in the world and reallygetting a better sense of what I
(21:14):
do.
So that idea of that mindfulnessfor me, especially now, after
you know, again, looking at thepractice side of it, after
you've got so much knowledge andexperience that you start to
let go of the fact that I'm notthe smartest person in the room
and I'm not trying to prove thatI'm the smartest person in the
room, right?
I'm just trying to help peopleto get to a place of have we
(21:34):
really thought carefully aboutthe decisions we're going to
make here?
Yeah, right, I love that.
And, you know, does that helpus get to the outcomes that you
want, right?
So you know, for me, again,it's just, it's sticking to
those, those basic tenets,helping people understand that
and then saying, look at, thenyou're allowed to be who you are
(21:55):
and what you're talented at andwhat you're brilliant at, and
we don't have to worry about awhole bunch of rules or you know
slick, you know sort of ideasabout.
There are people writing somebook about hey, here's the 15
steps to success.
It's like you know.
You don't have to do that.
You can use your own brillianceand your own talent, based on
some really strong principles,and be an awesome leader.
So true.
Speaker 1 (22:13):
So much of it is really about asking the right
questions, like you'redescribing.
Yeah, I mean, that's how youget the right answers.
You know so many of us areasking the wrong questions and
it just takes us askew.
Yeah, I think that's so wellsaid.
So, thinking about yourentrepreneurial journey, you
know you've had a lot ofexperiences along the way Right,
that kid who was doing you knowthe DJ thing magic all the way
(22:39):
to today.
Some people might look at youfrom the outside and look at
your highlight reel and say, ohman, david, his journey's just
been up and to the right.
He's never really struggled,he's never really had the
challenges that I deal with asan entrepreneur.
If somebody were to say that toyou, how would you respond to
(23:02):
that?
Speaker 2 (23:03):
Well, you know, it's the ups and downs.
Everyone wants to look at youknow, what is success?
Right, and how do we definesuccess?
And that's usually sort ofbased on things that are
external to whoever who you are.
It's usually based on you know,what kind of job do I have?
How much money do I make?
What kind of job do I have?
How much money do I make?
What kind of office do I have?
What you know, how do I have atrope free spouse?
Do I?
You know, what kind of car do Idrive?
All those things which are soexternal.
(23:23):
And they they tend to say, hey,wow, you know.
Now I know guys who you know,you meet them.
And they, you know, they get,they're fabulously wealthy, they
got.
You get to know them.
You find out that they'reprofoundly some of the most
depressed and unfulfilled peoplethat you're ever going to find,
because they're not actuallygetting what they need by this
(23:43):
idea of success.
Okay.
And so I look at it sometimesand I say, well, you know, I've,
I gauge success sometimes onhow well you're able to deal
with adversity and struggle.
So when people say that it'slike no, I, this just didn't
happen overnight.
I, I struggled, like I said, Iborrowed a desk and a phone.
You know my, I had our.
(24:04):
We had a son who was aboutseven months old.
My wife was pregnant with oursecond son.
You know this was ourlivelihood.
We had to pay the mortgage.
We, you know, we were at thatstage in our life and it was
like, okay, I've got to likereally go through this.
And it was a struggle.
I mean, you don't just pick upa phone and start phoning people
and all of a sudden you'remaking a lot of money.
It took a lot of effort, ittook a lot of that.
You know, when we got to acertain point and 9-11 happened
(24:26):
again, you know, we went fromrecord months of revenue to zero
in 30 days and I didn't have,and I hadn't thought about
putting the money aside to beable to run the business for six
months or a year, right.
So a good management consultingcompany, whatever it is, will
always have a contingency fundto be able to weather any storms
, because there's always ups anddowns, right.
So you know that wasn't so great.
(24:47):
I had to find jobs for all mypeople.
I had to pivot the wholebusiness.
I had to, you know, put myhouse on the line.
I had to do a bunch of thingsto keep the business going and
you know there were times.
You know there were times, eventhen, when you know it's like,
if, if, you want to be a realentrepreneur, right, this is,
this is.
This is one of my, this is oneof my areas that you can know
you're a real entrepreneur whenyou cash advance your visa for
(25:10):
payroll, are you that committed?
Wow, right, and I can tell you,I cash advance my visa to cover
payroll.
So you know cashflow and it'sunderstanding those things, and
you know you don't.
You know you get to a certainlevel in a certain time where
people go, wow, you know, like,how did you learn this?
And it was like, well, Ilearned it by struggling, I
(25:30):
learned it by going throughperiods of, you know, profound
disappointment at times, right,that things weren't going my way
.
But the idea is, is that's notwhat defines you?
Speaker 1 (25:46):
It's what you do about it.
That actually defines you sogood.
Right, david?
Let's say you had the abilityto go back, given all the things
that you know.
Now go back and talk to thatnine-year-old kid Right.
What would you love to go backand talk to that nine-year-old
kid Right?
What?
Speaker 2 (26:03):
would you love to go back and tell yourself Well, I
think it's what I've beguntelling my 61-year-old self, and
that's just be in the momentand don't define yourself by
your past, because this is thepast, you can't do anything
about it, you can't change it,and don't live in the future.
Don't live in the what ifs orwhen this happens.
(26:24):
Or you know, when I do this,I'm going to be able to do that
and I'm going to be successfulwhen I, you know, do this.
It's like have goals, have yourplan, have what you want to do
in terms of your vision, butthen bring back yourself every
day into the moment and say whatis it I can be doing right now,
today, to help me advancetowards that?
Okay, what am I doing right inthis moment and who am I right
(26:47):
in this moment?
And that's good, except thatperson.
Good, right.
And that's what I would tell mynine-year-old self.
It's what I.
It's what I would tell myselftoday.
It's not what I was tellingmyself in my 30s and my 40s.
I can tell you that much, workharder, do more.
Speaker 1 (26:59):
Exactly, with less.
Speaker 2 (27:07):
That's right.
Speaker 1 (27:08):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (27:26):
That is a common refrain.
I think at that point You'relike me.
You're a continual learner,You're always learning, You're
always growing Is there a bookthat has made a really big
difference?
I think that if you're lookingfor a team I don't even know if
it's in print anymore, but itwas called Playing to Win and I
think it was by a guy namedLarry Wilson.
(27:46):
Larry Wilson was a reallysuccessful insurance salesman,
et cetera, became a motivationalspeaker, ended up building a
place it was called Pecos RiverI think, and it was a team
facilitation kind of center.
But he started doing a lot ofwork with teams and he wrote
this book, I think with his son,called Playing to Win, and it
was a lot of what we just sortof encapsulated in this
conversation and he had actuallyfound a way to kind of bring it
(28:08):
all together to be able to saylook are we playing to win or
are we playing not to lose?
And that's fantastic.
Oh, are we playing to win orwe're playing just not to lose,
like we're just going arounddoing cya all day, we're not
taking any risks, we're notdoing whatever you know we can.
Sometimes we can say we'replaying to win, so I got to go
and take a risk, I got to tryand do something different, or
(28:29):
or whatever it is, so that wecan get to the next stage.
Um, that was a good book and Ithink I really that was sort of
early in my, in my facilitationdays and running workshops and
so I found that book to be veryhelpful in terms of just some
core concepts of working withteams.
Speaker 1 (28:47):
I love that.
I haven't read that.
I'm going to see if I can get acopy of that.
Speaker 2 (28:50):
Yeah, I don't, I can't, I don't even know.
I've got a copy but I don'tknow if it's in print anymore.
It might be, but yeah, playing,playing to win Larry Wilson.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (28:58):
David, this has been a fascinating and insightful
conversation.
I'm so grateful for you sharingso generously today of your
time and the insight that you'vegained along the way.
I know our listeners are goingto want to stay connected to you
and learn more about whatyou're doing.
What's the best way for them todo that?
Speaker 2 (29:16):
I think right now, if you look me up on LinkedIn, you
follow me on LinkedIn, connectwith me on LinkedIn.
That's the best way for them todo that.
I think right now, if you lookme up on LinkedIn, you follow me
on LinkedIn, connect with me onLinkedIn.
That's the best way to find me.
Obviously, we've got a website,but LinkedIn is where you'll
see stuff that I'm posting,where you're going to see
different things that I'm offersat different things for free or
whatever you know resources, etcetera, and just yeah, I'll be
(29:37):
doing some.
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