Identity Load and Meeting Elmo

As Cate and Erik recover from recording their audiobook, they discuss managing burnout, showing up for yourself when the going gets rough, and how to intentionally rest. Erik promises to warn Cate if he ever arranges for her to meet Elmo.

Key topics: How to show up for yourself and others when you have ADHD, How to recover from burnout by limiting your cognitive load, emotional load, and identity load.

Perfect for adults with ADHD who love genuine, unfiltered conversations about neurodivergent childhood experiences and how our scattered minds connect memories. Subscribe for more ADHD-friendly storytelling!

PREORDER "The ADHD Field Guide for Adults" ⁠https://bit.ly/3Kjd4R2⁠ 

Episode Transcript

(00:07):
My voice feels weird. Really.
A little bit a little tight. No, I'm fine.
I don't know. But I've also been like talking
all day so. I guess that's true.
I I am alone here so I have not been talking very much, just
editing. I've been hyper focusing on
writing a description of my showfor the tour because they need

(00:31):
one and it's surprisingly hard to write a description of the
show. Oh yeah.
Especially since I imagine you're like also writing the
show, so it's like your brain isin full form mode and you're
like, I think I. Solved it.
Actually, I think I had a conversation with that nice Eric
Tate, my magician friend. Hi.

(00:52):
Eric. And we were talking about some
stuff and I honestly, I think I solved it.
Like if the whole thing just went.
And so it was super excited. But now I'm like, but I want to
like, I don't want to give it away.
I don't want to give away the punchline.
Do you know what I mean? So I'm like trying to write it.
I'm like, well, it's kind of a magic show, but kind of not.

(01:12):
Do you do any magic in the show?Yeah.
Cool. Yeah, it's, it's I'm, I think
I'm actually going to wind up cutting the sea shanties, which
is tragic. What I might do is just do a
whole separate show on sea shanties.
So I don't think I'm going to dothe same show every time.
I like, I keep like really interrogating my soul and I'm
like, I can't see myself doing the same show over and over.

(01:34):
That just doesn't feel right. Yeah, I'm thinking of that,
that, sorry. No, no, no, you go ahead.
Oh, just that montage from Hackswhere where it's it's her doing
the show and it's her doing the same lines over and over and
over again. Like I think you would get into
that feeling very fast doing thesame thing and.
So I was like, but I don't know,like I just, I keep coming back

(01:55):
to Josh Johnson. Like I'm not saying I'm as good
or as talented or as experiencedas Josh Johnson, but like I
could do a different show every week.
I've every like, that's what I thought.
I know I've talked about this before, but that's what I
thought comedy was. I literally thought comedy was
just like, you would just get ona stage and do an hour special.
And I was like, oh, OK. And then like, that's what Josh

(02:16):
Johnson does. I was like, I could.
That's I could not, Especially if I'm just talking about like
random shit that I care about, Like, yeah, OK.
Totally could. Absolutely you could.
I mean, you do do that here, youknow, It would just be you on
stage bouncing off yourself, which would be a delight to see.

(02:38):
Well, and also like, I don't know, like I'm, I'm, I'm the
biggest thing is like, do I needa slideshow?
That's what I keep coming back to.
It's like I feel like if I had aslideshow, if I had a
PowerPoint, Unstoppable. Yeah, I I think he would crush
it with a slideshow. I just don't.
Making a slideshow is the hardest part though.
That's why I did. That's why I did posters for the
Christmas Carol was because I knew that if I spent any time on

(03:01):
a slideshow, all I was going to do for the next 6 months was
like obsessed over the fonts in the slideshow.
So I just like got the pictures printed 'cause I was like, this
is the bare minimum of what I need.
But I was like if I just had like, you know what I mean?
But then it's like, and then I want to put like jokes in the
slideshow and then I want to do like little like bits with the
slideshow and then it becomes a show about a slideshow.
And I don't want that either until I'm completely struggling.

(03:23):
Especially after you did miss your voice all that time, you
know? Like I feel like you would
definitely the slideshow could steal the show 'cause you do a
really good. Job I would do a very like
that's the thing. And I was like, I would it
would, you know, So I was like, OK, but I don't know.
I don't know. Yeah, I'm picturing like you.
You could limit yourself to justlike one font.
That's the only thing I like. I was just like.

(03:45):
Black and. White like just black and white
one font like aerial, you know, or whatever.
Maybe like a? Picture.
But like, like, you know, like pictures, because pictures is
like really a big thing. It's because I just like having
like a visual aid of like, hey, like this is what this thing
looked like or whatever. But yeah, I've been thinking
about that a lot. I'm just like, maybe that's the
answer. Because then that way it's like
do anything for an hour if I fuck PowerPoint like.

(04:08):
Backing you up, making little caddy comments from the rafters.
Right. That would be awesome.
Yeah. I think my voice feels weird
because I had to talk very deliberately and very.
Hello. My name is.
You know, for a while I couldn't.
Yeah. Oh.
For context, your listener, we just got back from recording the

(04:29):
audio book. Oh yeah.
We didn't actually say that we did it.
We did it. We did it.
We're done. It's done.
It's fucking. That's crazy.
It's like complete. Yeah, we did all the weird
little marketing stuff. We did the acknowledgements.
It's Dunzos. It's crazy.
It's in somebody else's hands. Yeah, it's pretty crazy.
I feel bad for their editor a lot.

(04:52):
I don't know. I don't, I don't.
I honestly, I was talking to a couple people who do audiobooks
and like, I think we actually did a fairly good job.
I think we swore a lot more thanmost audiobook readers, but I
think we did a like we got the whole thing down in like 3 1/2
days. Like that is not bad.
They gave us a week and we got it done 3 1/2 days like.

(05:15):
Yeah, that is pretty chill. That is pretty cool 'cause we
did, we kept it moving. Like there were sections that
like, I mean, certainly I like, you know, once a sentence
becomes hard to say, it just keeps getting harder to say, you
know? So like, they're definitely some
spots where I sort of snowballed.
But on the whole we got through.We we like, we kept it moving,

(05:35):
you know, were there weren't anylike chapters that took us like
forever because we were like, how do we different, Different.
How do you know? I don't know.
We didn't nitpick too hard. We just like, trusted the text
and fucking went for it. Yeah.
But I feel bad is that I really care a lot about I'm like the
melody of voice in general because I'm noticing like how

(06:00):
much I have auditory processing issues when it comes to people
talking. I learned a new phrase the other
day, Echoic memory. Oh yeah.
Yeah, like if somebody's saying something and you play it back
in your head and that's what I'mlistening to.
Well, so first of all, so echoicmemory is like, if I go la, la,
la, like you can hear in your head now, dear listener, just

(06:23):
play that back in your head. That's echoic memory.
Like you listen to that in your head.
And I'm noticing when I hear people talk, I don't hear them
like the first time, like when they say it or I rarely do.
Like if I'm in like flow state, you know, having a conversation,
different story. I have to like listen to it and

(06:43):
then play that back in my head to understand it.
And my, I focus a lot on melody just in general.
Like I can never remember the words to songs, but I can always
remember the melody. So like when I'm reading my own
writing, I'm like, oh, I remember exactly the melodic way
that I wanted this sentence to work.
And so if I didn't nail that, like, I couldn't even tell what

(07:04):
I was saying because it was justlike word, a word followed by
another word. So anyways, I, I would start a
sentence and go like, no, that'snot quite it.
And like, go back a bunch of times.
But I don't know, they didn't seem like we were doing a
particularly bad job. I'm sure.
I'm sure they've seen worse, youknow?
Yeah, yeah, I was going to say they've definitely seen worse
because they all had stories about having.

(07:24):
They did have very vivid stories.
No, not naming any names, but itwas cool seeing the whole thing
laid out too. Like reading it front to back,
just, you know, some sections worked a lot better than I
thought they would because of just how they were laid out.
And like that's going back and forth.
Some sections worked a lot worsethan I thought they would.
But hey, first book, what what are you?

(07:45):
What are you going to do? Yeah, right.
Well, I was just really gratefulthat they were also, it seems
like able to, the weirdest part was just catching the mistakes.
Like I was so confident that that was, it was perfect.
It was like a perfect book. And then like we read through it
and I was like, Oh no. And so I'm like, it seems like
they were able to like get most of the stuff fixed, which is

(08:07):
like I'm really grateful for. Yeah, me too.
So. Like, how nice was everybody
like. So nice.
They were so nice. Everybody was so.
Nervous and everybody was so. Painless they were.
Yeah, I was. Were you nervous?
You didn't seem nervous. I never.
Seen. I was really nervous.
I was so scared I was just goingto like forget how to read and
just fuck it up and waste everybody's time.

(08:30):
Yeah, me too. I was worried I can.
I was worried my mouth was goingto get dry and then I was going
to get distracted by my mouth being dry and then I just
wouldn't be able to fucking readanything.
Because like growing up and being in school, like when it
was my turn to read, I would often just read it so many times
that I like kind of inadvertently memorized my
paragraph, you know, I would like count through.

(08:53):
And so this was the first time it was like this was by by far
the most I have ever read aloud ever.
So it was a little bit of that like, you know, middle school,
it's about to be my turn to readfear.
And then also match the fact that like these are very much so
like professionals, you know. And so I was like, that was one

(09:13):
that was sort of it was it was consoling because it's like, oh,
they're professionals, like they'll be fine.
But also like these are professionals, you know, I don't
want to waste their time or something like that.
So yeah, I was a little nervous.You didn't seem nervous at all
either. You seemed relaxed and.
We both were like trying to playcool for the sake of the other.
Person apparently successfully, which is pretty cool.
Yeah, I was really nervous. I was like, I don't know.

(09:35):
I just like, I don't know. I was just like, especially
because it's like so fancy, you know, I was like, Oh my God.
Like, I can't imagine, like, howmuch that studio costs, like
rent per hour. And so I was like, don't waste
time. Oh my God, right.
But we did it. I thought it was pretty cool.
It was cool showing my family, you know, like pictures from in
the booth. Like look, I'm really doing it.

(09:56):
Oh my God, this is OK. This is so stupid.
You know how I did like the TBS thing?
So yeah, I was on the phone withmy mom and apparently the
commercial came on and she lost her God damn mind.
Like, just started to scream. I thought she was getting like,
attacked. I thought someone had like,
broken into the house and she just started like, Oh my God.

(10:17):
Oh my God. And I was like, what the fuck?
And she's like, it's you, you'reon the TV.
I was like, Oh my God. Like that's so awesome.
That's so cute. She's proud of you so.
Proud of me, it's so cute. That's awesome.
Are you seeing your mom at all for for Christmas?
I don't know, she's having like I'm, I'm we're going home to
Chris's family for Christmas, but I'm struggling with it

(10:41):
because like she can't really travel really well right now.
And so I like, I might go like visit her for my birthday or
something because she doesn't want to come for I invited her.
I was like, you can come, but she doesn't like want to.
So I don't know. I'm just trying to like figure
out what to do. Yeah, Christmas is I, I imagine
like I don't have a huge amount of like people pleasing

(11:02):
tendencies like I think I do in ways I don't notice yet.
But for you, I know you do deal with that sort of thing quite a
lot. So I imagine Christmas can be a
rough time for a person who's trying to right, you know,
satisfy all their quote UN quoteduties.
Yeah, it's also like, I feel like just being like Polly makes
it like so much more complicated.
Oh yeah. There's like extra.

(11:23):
There's just like extra, which is like, it's fine.
It's like part of it, but it's just funny.
Polyamory. It's extra.
It's extra. Do you?
Are relationships complicated? What about more complicated?
What if you added more? It's so funny because so many
people are always like, does polyamory work for people with
ADHD? I'm like yeah, until it fucking

(11:45):
doesn't. It's great until it's not.
That can be said for, I feel like for pretty much everything
with can people with ADHD, are people with ADHD like good at
this type of thing? Like we could be until we're
not, but we also maybe not untilwe are.
You know, it's like, dude, I don't know.

(12:05):
It's a huge, huge thing to just be like, how does ADHD relate to
this entire concept in many ways?
And it's interesting to talk about, but but I feel like a lot
of time people want like a definitive answer and it's like,
dude, you're a whole person, bro.
Yeah, you're more than just that, ADHD.
Yeah, I don't know. I struggle with that a lot.
I've been struggling with that alot lately.

(12:26):
I feel like. Yeah, because I feel like
there's, I don't know, like, 'cause around the holidays,
right? Like, like I was like a content
creator who talks about ADHD. Like, I feel like it's really
easy to be like, you know, ADHD during the holidays, which is
fine. Like that's fine.
And it's like a real thing that you have to navigate.
But I also think that it's really easy to sort of like

(12:51):
overlook the whole whole of you when you're just constantly
focused on ADHD. Do you know what I mean?
And it's like, I don't know. And it's weird because it's
like, that's what I talk about. I talk about, I educate about, I
advocate for ADHD and blank ADHDand relationships, you know,
whatever, like making connections between, hey, you

(13:12):
might struggle more during the holidays because of these
things, because of the way that like planning and prioritizing
and rejection sensitivity and emotional disregulation and the
stress of the holidays. And like, you know, like the
whole conversation. But there's also a part of me
that's like, am I doing people adisservice by naming that as
like ADHD makes Christmas harder?

(13:34):
Like am I simplifying it? Am I, am I boiling it down to
something that is not actually useful?
Or am I distilling it in a way that like, allows people to make
that connection of, oh, it's notthat like Christmas is bad.
It's that executive dysfunction hits harder when you also
become, you know, you go back toyour parents house and you

(13:54):
become a surly 16 year old, eventhough you're actually 47.
You know what I mean? I don't know.
I don't know. And I really struggle with it
because it's like, I never want to become one of those people
who's like, we need to talk about like, you know, and like
infantilize or like overly simplify really complex

(14:17):
conversations about like the whole of us and the way that we
navigate things. But also like, I don't know,
I've just really been strugglingwith that lately.
I don't know. Yeah, I think there's a real
danger when you learn about something, especially when you
like first learn about somethingto pathologize everything in
regards to that. Like when you first get a

(14:39):
diagnosis or you first learn about like a new a new symptom
or a new thing about executive dysfunction or something.
And you're like, Oh my God, thatshows up so much in my own life.
It's really hard to like be objective about that and think,
is that really this new symptom that I just learned about or did
I just learn about this new symptom?
And so I'm looking for it in everything.

(14:59):
You know, sort of like when you look at the clock and it's 1111
and suddenly you see 1111 like 10 times that day.
And especially as a content creator, you want to talk about
these things because that's whatyou like.
You know that That's what you talk about.
That's what you feel, you know, a duty to do.
But if pathologizing things for yourself is a problem,

(15:22):
pathologizing things for other people would also be a problem.
Like if somebody's not worried about Christmas and ADHD and
then they see a video about, dude, Christmas is really hard
with ADHD. Oh my God, it is.
I didn't notice that. Like, I didn't realize.
Oh my shit, it is. You know, it's a, it's a weird
line to to, to walk. Because it's like, I never want
to do the community a disservice, but sometimes it's

(15:44):
like, is naming this actually useful?
Or is it just pathologizing something that doesn't need to
be pathologized? You know, the same is like, like
the other day I, I made a video about burnout that like popped
off a little bit and I was talking about rest like what is
actually what is rest? And I was talking and I was sort

(16:04):
of like describing it. And then in the comments people
were like, but I like to do thisthing.
Is that right? And I was like, yeah, sure for
you. Great, you know.
But like the I realize that sometimes like naming the thing
actually becomes more limiting because then people hear that as
like the only way of like, well,she only talked about this

(16:27):
option in the video. So like my option is invalid.
And it's like, no, that's not how that works.
But like, you know, but then to pathologize further, like
because of black and white thinking, because of all or
nothing thinking, because of like logical fallacies that we
like tell ourselves, it's like, Oh no, Kate didn't say that.
I'm allowed to doodle as rest, so I must be doodling wrong or
you know, and I'm like, no, that's not what I'm saying.

(16:48):
That's not what I'm saying. Yeah, it's like as soon as you
talk about an example of something, you're now assigning
properties to that thing, you know, like, oh, is my thing
Restful enough for something like that?
Like it's it's a dangerous game when you start naming and
limiting things, categorizing things.
Interesting. I don't know.
It is, yeah. I don't know.
I think well, that's what I wantto keep going Like well, that's

(17:10):
why in the book. But I do think having since we
just read it cover to cover, it's just like very much on my
mind that like, I like how oftenwe seek to be general about
stuff, you know, we, we do give like examples of like try this,
you know, but I think the way that my mind always wants to
look at things, especially like solutions to problems is what

(17:34):
properties does that solution have, you know, rather than what
is it actually look like, You know, I mean, I feel like, for
example, rest has the property of putting your brain from a
really task positive state to a more default mode state where
you're sort of recovering your, your no pathways are recovering.
You're perhaps getting ready forbed or something like that.

(17:56):
Rather than does it look like sitting down?
Does it look like standing up? Does it look like doing yoga?
Is it very active? Or is it very like sitting on
the recliner? Like it can look all sorts of
different ways. And I liked it in the book, we
seek to try to describe like theproperties of things rather than
so the specific action and in visuals surrounding that thing.
I think that could be more present in ADHD conversations of

(18:18):
like, we're all different people.
We are all quite literally like special snowflakes.
There are no two people that arethe same, like even twins.
So yeah, there's a lot of different possible solutions to
this, but they all kind of have some things in common.
And these these are what they are like.
I like that type of thinking andI think we did a pretty good job
of that in the book. And I think they can also help

(18:40):
with trying to not pathologize things that don't need
pathologizing. I don't know.
I keep thinking about ADHD and Christmas because like, I'm
about to go to Denver to see my whole family for Christmas.
And I'm just like, I'm now thinking about all the different
ways my ADHD could possibly makethat really bad for like me.

(19:01):
Or that, you know, like, what ifI forget to talk to my
grandmother the whole time because I'm so busy talking to
my grandfather? And I'd like forget that other
people exist or something like that.
But then remembering that like the solutions to those problems
aren't like, don't forget to do specifically this.
Like the solution to those problems are often just like, in
that moment, check and go. What can I do right now in this

(19:22):
unique moment that will assuage that problem rather than having
like a checklist to memorize or something like that?
I don't know, I'm kind of just rambling up to that point.
No, no, no, I get it. I mean, it's the same with like,
I think. I don't know why I'm sitting
like this, but this time I'm sitting for a minute like.
I think I see it a lot, especially with like

(19:43):
relationship stuff. You know, it's like having an
understanding of how executive dysfunction impacts
relationships is vital to building healthier and more
rewarding relationships. But also if you spend the entire
time thinking about is this executive functioning, you're
not actually going to ever actually be able to be present

(20:04):
in the moment 'cause you're justconstantly evaluating like where
your executive dysfunction is showing up.
You know what I mean? It's like, I don't know, it's
weird. It's so complicated.
It's complicated. I don't know if there's like and
there's, you know, not one rightanswer, like, like different
answers for different people. Like I think some people really
are still in the place where they need to like specifically

(20:26):
have named for them and pointed out like, hey, task
organization, task management task for organization that
gifts, shopping for gifts, you know, you know, But then there's
some people were like, yeah, I have trouble buying gifts.
Cool, moving on, you know, like and it just is, I don't know.
I don't know. Yeah, I know.

(20:47):
I think that's also why I started again, again and talk
about I'm I'm not sorry. I don't know why I keep saying
I'm sorry, but I just we just did read it.
So I'm thinking about I fucking lost my train of thought,
talking about the damn the the the written book.
Oh my gosh, I really lost my train of thought.
Hold on, what did you say? You said so these old people

(21:13):
like. Over shopping.
Oh yeah. But I think a lot of it comes
down to like, I think again, with ADHD, I think it all comes
down to time. I think when we're trying to
like work in perspective time, like what do I do if this thing

(21:37):
happens later? You know, I'm going to worry
about it now. So I have like solutions
available, which is not bad. You know, planning for the
future is not a bad thing. But we are not really good at
that in a lot of cases. And so some things that in the
moment might seem easier if we were to just think about them as
they occur become very scary when you think about them
prospectively. Like what if this thing happens?

(22:00):
Whereas like now I am genuinely worried now.
Like my grandfather tends to monopolize conversation because
he loves conversation that matchwith the fact that my
grandmother is now hard of hearing.
It makes for a recipe of her getting left out of
conversations. And so I get really nervous that
she's going to feel left out. Like whenever I see the two of
them together, I'm always like have to make a point to like not

(22:23):
let Zur, my grandfather, monopolize the conversation.
And I worry about it a lot. But in the moments when I see it
happening, when I'm actually at the dinner table with them and I
can feel that Grammys feeling left out, the solutions are
always not scary and complicated.
It's just ask her what she's thinking about, you know, ask

(22:43):
her what she thinks about whatever we're talking about or
change the topic to something that she likes to whatever it
is. Ask her about the Garden Club,
which is a very grandmotherly thing to, to, to do, but it is
pretty the, the Garden Club she's a member of.
It's pretty badass. They're they're more of a
preservation society. But that is just to say that
like, I think a large part of solving like the worry problem

(23:05):
about worrying about having solutions for problems that
might happen later with ADHD is developing like a trust in
yourself that you'll, you can feel it through at the time and
ask yourself at the time when you're like, oh, this is the
thing. Just how can I show up for
myself or show up for this person that I'm trying to, to
not do a disservice? It's often like much easier to

(23:27):
just think about it in the moment rather than worrying
about it. So I know, I think developing
that relationship with your of trust, like with yourself, that
you'll know what to do in the moment.
Or at least you'll have a betterunderstanding of what to, you'll
have a better understanding starts to figure out what to do
in the moment. Then you will worrying 2 months
out or something like that. And I think that's also a

(23:47):
dangerous pathologizing ADHD like in a video because now
you're telling people like this is what's going to happen and
this is what you should worry about.
Start thinking about it now. Whereas perhaps better advice
would be like, you'll be fine, you know?
Here's some ways to think that might make you even more fine,
but you'll be fine. Yeah, or like, if you notice
this, here's some stuff that youcan do to plan ahead.

(24:09):
You know, although I don't know,it's one of the it's December
16th when we're recording this and I still don't know what to
fucking get to anybody for Christmas.
Dude, I am the worst gift giver.I still haven't given you your
birthday present from last year.The only Christmas present that
I got was freezer was the only Christmas present that I've

(24:29):
bought for anybody in my immediate life is freezer and
then I left it when I came out to record.
So I don't even know how to get it to them so.
Wait, you left it like it's in. It's in that.
Way on my dresser right now herein Georgia.
Oh, oh, huh. Like I forgot to pack it.
Can I know what it is? I'm really caring, so it is.
Yeah, so you don't. Have to tell me.

(24:51):
Yeah, when he was at Yale, used to like very specifically hang
out at this like 1 restaurant, and I got him a coffee cup from
that restaurant. That's so good.
I know I'm coming back now and remembering you told me that.
That's such a good fucking gift.I found it on eBay.

(25:11):
I was like, no way. So I was like, I thought that
might be a nice like, you know, my like room, like inspire some
memories. Yeah, he drinks coffee every
morning as far as that last timeI I saw.
I think it was like Mary's or something like that.
I don't remember the name of this.
I do. I'm so glad my family stopped
doing gifts for, for Christmas because fuck me, was that the

(25:33):
most stressful goddamn thing. Yeah.
Getting everybody gifts. And then like, knowing that no
matter what I get them. It's, it's, it's not that I
worry I'm not going to get them like quote, UN quote, the right
gift. It's that I know no matter what
I get them, they are going to respond very gratefully.
You know, they're going to put on the show of having gotten a
gift. And, and I'm not trying to like

(25:54):
get them something they would want.
I'm trying to get them somethingthat they would have the easiest
time doing that act with, you know?
So it's not like. I don't know how you feel about
that. That's kind of terrible.
I'm sorry, I'm sorry. Because it's like, you know, if
I get them a bad gift, it's not like I'm, I'm like, they're
going to be like, oh, Eric doesn't love me because he got

(26:15):
me a gift that I don't care for.You know, it all comes from a
place of like here, have some new sweatpants because he
doesn't love new sweatpants. It's just if I get them a gift
they're not stoked about, it's going to be much harder for them
to put on that show. And I want it to be easier for
them. Like that's the stress of gift
giving that I have. I just like I don't I hate
that's the video that I make every year and unapologetically

(26:36):
I don't give a fuck about is don't make your kids perform
gratitude. I hate that shit.
I was like, just let me, I'm a, I'm a whole adult and I'm like,
just let me receive this gift and not have to worry about what
my face is doing. That to me causes the most
stress, especially because like I am a hard person to buy for.
I know this about myself. I'm a hard person to buy for.

(26:56):
I buy stuff. If I want something, I buy it
right. And so like in general, I tend
to know what I want and then I seek it out because I'm hyper
independent. So it's like I don't necessarily
need a lot of stuff. And so then, you know, if
something's a useful, I'm just going to get it because I want
to like optimize my life. So I'm impossible to buy for

(27:17):
Chris was like, what the fuck doI get you for Christmas?
And like, you know, I was like giving him ideas and stuff and
he's like, but I want to like get you like something that
you're, you know, and I was like, I don't know, just buy me
like tickets to a museum or something, you know, like,
'cause I, that's the other thingis like, I have so much stuff.
I have so much stuff. So I'm realizing that anymore
like as I get older, I value like experiences more than I

(27:39):
value things. And so I've been trying to sort
of like coach people in my life to be like, just buy me like a
museum pass or like a, you know,like a, I don't know, amusement
park tickets or something. Like just something that I can
do that's like fun and interesting.
That's not like my everyday slog.
Yeah, I know what you mean. I have two like ultimate gift

(28:02):
ideas for you I don't have to get.
Me anything. No, thank you.
But I but I mean, I mean in life, like if I was to to ever,
like if I was to ever get you the best possible gifts, I think
that would ruin all of their gifts for you.
Like I know what they are, I think.
Oh my God, if you are you going to tell me I.

(28:25):
I think I have told you it's, well, it's one of those things
that like, it's so unlikely thatI will ever be able to do this,
that even if I tell you, you will still never be expecting it
because. Of course, that's the Mickey 7
Chevy Bel Air. No, that's actually not one of
the two, really. But I do think of that all the
time, Yeah. In fact that color this.

(28:49):
Color. Deep blue.
Noted. OK, there's a, you know, the
metal earth little models, you know, that come in those little
packages. Yeah, they're like little laser
cut metal models. They just came out with a
exactly a 1957 Chevy Bel Air andit's awesome.
It's it's more of like a a Robin's egg blue than like a

(29:10):
deep blue. But it is it is blue.
No but one is you meeting Almo but like really meeting Elmo not
like not like in a dumb. Point of picture.
That's, well, that's also The thing is I don't want, I don't
want to put you in a. I would be in like, I wouldn't
be able to do it. I would just be crying the whole

(29:32):
time. Like, I've thought a lot of
because, like, Elmo, like, but like, there is a likelihood that
that could happen because of Chris's job at the Puppetry
Center, yeah. That's actually true and thought
of that and. Like I think about that
constantly of like what happens the day that Chris is like, why
don't you come to work with me? You can meet Elmo like I would I
couldn't. I would just have to leave the
room. I would just be weeping the

(29:53):
whole time. So I don't know how I would like
do that. I think I think it'd be really
embarrassing really quickly. Would you swear I would just
start like I don't like really like, like, oh, I'm so fucking
cool. Oh, I'm not like this doesn't
don't bother me at all. I'm not, I'm not freaking out.
So I just like try to play it cool and just like swear in
front of Elmo and make an asshole of myself.

(30:13):
Elmo is is is one of the best yes Anders ever.
I think no matter what you did, Elmo would be stoked to have you
and and hang out. Would you just and he's here
tonight. Would you for for Jim, my
genuine reference if you if I ever somehow I'm in a position

(30:36):
to arrange that you meet. Do you want to know ahead of
time? I would have to know.
I would have to know like a weekahead of time and I still would
probably cry, but like, couldn't.
It would be like Christian Bell meeting a sloth.
Like you wouldn't be able to spring that shit on me.
I would have to like go have a panic attack.
Okay, cool. I will not do that totally.
Okay, thanks. Oh, and the Sir.
If you can arrange it so that I can meet please.

(30:59):
Don't spring it on me. Ask it No, wait,
[e-mail]. Ask it infinitequestpodcast.com.
I forget what we use the name for.
Ask it infinitequestpodcast.com.Yeah, yeah.
[e-mail]. Yeah, well.
Oh, and the second gift, I'm notgoing to tell you because that
one I I think would ruin this rise.
And the close third runner up isa 1957 Jebby Chevy Bel Air.

(31:23):
But I genuinely, I know we brought this up before.
I don't want to get you one unless it can be like rebuilt
from the frame such that the frame is like titanium or
something because those old carsare so dangerous dude.
Like boring. They're so dangerous.
Just drive around like you just don't get into a car crash.
I. Mean, yeah, but like, dude, if

(31:43):
you ever watch crash tests from like cars in the 50 versus cars
from today, yeah. Like crazy.
There's still obviously a lot ofcar accidents and bad things
that happen with cars, but like,they are so much safer.
Yeah, well, there's some. Belts now.
And there's like seatbelts and like we have crumple zones with
frames that deliberately don't crumple, whereas then it was
just like everything fucking crumples.

(32:05):
Who cares? Just don't.
That was their solution was justdon't crash.
Like that's not, that's the safest way to deal with it.
Yeah, I think if I was going to get you like AI would figure out
how to let you, how to get you to conduct a Symphony, I think

(32:25):
that that would be that would beone that I would do I.
Would I think Mahler Mahler 8 would be my dream Symphony to
conduct? And meeting Stephen Fry,
obviously that. Would be very cool.
I don't know that's that I you know, when you say that, I start
to understand what you mean by you can't disappoint a picture,
you know, like I like to think that that I would be like cool

(32:48):
and impressive or whatever, but I know I would.
There's no way I wouldn't be trying to be cool and
impressive, and there's nothing that less cool and impressive
than that, you know? Trying to be cool and
impressive. I get it.
Like it's how I feel about LevarBurton.
Like on ironically, I know that that was like the guy from the
show, but like that is how it like I was like there's no way,
like I couldn't like I would just be patently uncool the

(33:10):
entire time. I think maybe that's that's the
move I would love to see StephenFry in like, let's say I'm at
something convention a thing andI'm giving a lecture on how to
make instruments and techniques for how to make instruments out
of random objects. And I have like a booth or like
a something that is displayed all of my various types of

(33:33):
instruments. You know, that's like a good
curation of all the different techniques that I've developed.
And he like, walked up to that booth.
That would be cool because then I would be just genuine.
Yeah. Like, I would just, I would
think I would genuinely forget that it was him several times
because I would just be so into talking about like how to make
instruments out of random shit. And I, I think that would be

(33:55):
like the coolest I could ever look to him is just full on
nerding out info dumping over tension pegs and stuff, you
know? It's so funny because like I
keep being like, yeah, like I'd love like Ruth Goodman was
always up first, but then she was on the podcast already.
So it's like, I kind of already like, I guess Lucy Worsley is
like the next, the next person. I would very much like to.

(34:15):
What about also is this? I don't know if this is the
right person, but Felipe Gregory.
Oh yeah. Who's the Richard the Third
Woman Who? Not.
Philippe, it's not Philippa Gregory.
Right. What's her last name?
I know I got it wrong. Philippa Langley.
Langley, Yeah. Philippa Langley.
Philippa Gregory is an author. Philippa Langley is the

(34:38):
historian. Gotcha.
OK, Cool, cool, cool. What a fucking badass.
Also the movie pretty good like it was goofy as fuck but like
they did a good job. What was the name of that?
Is it finding Richard? I think is the lost king
something like that. Something like that, Yeah.
I like that she has like a slings in arrows ghost of

(34:59):
Richard the third hanging out with her all the time.
I. Was like, it's such a cute
convention. Yeah, it was.
I think it was hard to pull off,too.
And I think they really did a good job.
Yeah. Because, like, I think because
they really sell. It is like, this is true.
She genuinely does care about Richard the 3rd and what he
would think way more than any ofthe random people in her life
telling her she's weird, you know?
Yeah. May I?

(35:20):
This has nothing to do with anything we're talking about.
May I rant briefly? Yeah, of course.
So on the way back from Lai watched the new pics.
Oh, it's not new. It's newer.
It's the new Pixar movie Elio, which is about a kid who OK, I'm
just going to tell you the plot of this movie, and I want you to
tell me what movie this is. So there's a kid and he really

(35:40):
wants aliens to be real. And so he's trying to get the
attention of the aliens. And so the aliens contact Earth
and then he is like, he respondsto the message and he's like,
hello, my name is Elio, come getme.
So they come and they take him to their magical like star base
in this guy. And then a bad guy comes and
they're like, Oh no, what are wegoing to do about this bad guy?

(36:02):
But they think that Elio is the leader of Earth because he tells
him that he he's the leader of Earth and he's like, I'll help
you with this bad guy. And so then he goes to the bad
guy and he kind of fucks it up alittle bit.
And then bad guys like, Oh no. And so then Elio and then the
the, the bad guys kid kids movieElio and the, and the baby alien
who he becomes like best friendswith wind up going back to

(36:23):
earth. And then they have to like
escape earth and, and, and like rescue the baby alien.
And he does that by like a calling a guy on the ground with
a ham radio and he's like, guesswhat?
It's all real aliens are real. We need you to help us escape.
This movie is fucking Galaxy Quest.
Galaxy Helio is just, it's like ET but with the ending of Galaxy

(36:47):
Quest. And I've never been more mad
watching a movie because I was like, people are going to watch
this movie like, well, what a good movie.
And I'm like, no, no, you shouldhave just been watching Galaxy
Quest. Although I do also think that
Galaxy Quest as a Pixar style movie would go so fucking.
Yeah, totally. Just because like, you know, you
can like like the visuals, just everything gets like a little
bit more like cool and magical. But I think, but I was like,

(37:08):
that shit is just Galaxy Quest. I don't know why that bothered
me so much but I was like this some bullshit.
Hey dude, I'm I'm good. Artists borrow, great artists
steal, right? They're they're, they're
grabbing and making of their own.
There's like 3 plots. It's also it's it's in in in
that sort of Galaxy Quest fashion and also used to be much
dirtier Elio and they had to turn it back.

(37:31):
You can actually see in some of the in some of the mouth
movements versus the audio, you can tell that they actually said
a fuck a lot. I thought it was funny.
He's like 7 in the movie. I know it's for Galaxy Quest
people that know Galaxy Quest Lord.

(37:53):
It's really funny that there is like a extensive sequence of
Elio just getting this shit kicked out of him, which I
thought was like, a really? Is there really.
Yeah. There's like a whole like, the
aliens come to save him right before he's going to get like,
just like, get the shit kicked out of him.
And then like, it's like, but then like, they'd like go back
to this. So it's just like, he just gets
the shit kicked out of him and I'm like, all right.

(38:13):
I'm glad. He's getting bullied at summer
camp. Oh no.
Well, he's got alien friends, dude.
He like always better watch out alien friends.
It's good. But the aliens like really, it's
so cute how they do. He's like a big scary monster
and then like they like he gets like a translator and he get
like and then he's like, Oh, no,he's just he wasn't scary.
He's just like a little kid withlike, but he looks scary because
he's an alien. Yeah, his language sounds angry

(38:35):
to us, but it's just because he has a alien mouth.
Yeah, it's like, I love for thatas a convention, but then
they're like best friends and they're just like pounding
around like non-toxic masculinity, talking about their
feelings. It's so cute.
That's awesome. I've never seen this movie, but
I'm going to go ahead and put $10 on the board.
I I am calling it that there is a reference to the Voyager
plaque the. Entire movie is about the

(38:58):
Voyager record. Is there really?
The entire movie is about the Voyager record.
Like that's that's the whole plot of the movie is the
Voyager. Somebody owes me 10 bucks.
Yeah, I don't know what. It is.
There's like a there's like It opens with the Voyager plaque,
an explanation of the Voyager plaque.
They directly show the Voyager plaque.
The aliens communicate using theVoyager plaque.
Like it's like a whole thing. Well that's all.

(39:20):
I always said that as a joke first, but that's awesome dude.
Sweet. That's what the Voyager plaque
is for. They like grounded in a little
bit of reality which isn't. It how you doing with with the
old burnout lately you've been doing a lot of stuff and I can I
can see it from here I'm. Tired I'm doing OK.
Some of it was this is so fucking ironic.

(39:42):
Is like to conquer my burnout. I did a bunch of research on
burnout, which does not actuallyhelp burn out, but I did gain
like a much better understandingof what actually helps burn out
and what doesn't, which is really interesting.
Did you know, did you know that rest, like resting when it comes

(40:03):
to burn out is like the thing that you have to do?
You have to rest. When we talk about rest, like,
we talk about it really badly, but rest.
Is necessary because burnout is basically your body just being
in like your nervous system is just like constantly stressed
and doesn't know how to like come out of that stress because
it doesn't feel safe coming out of that stress.

(40:26):
So recovering from burnout is less about like, oh, I have to
sleep a lot. And it's more about teaching
your body while awake that it issafe to not be in that sort of
like activated, I don't want to say like fight or flight, but
like that activated stress that activated.
Like I'm constantly worrying. I'm constantly like, because

(40:47):
sometimes we don't even know that we're doing it.
Sometimes we don't even know that we are in a place of stress
or we are in a state of like constant being on.
And So what actually qualifies as rest that helps with burnout
is you have to reduce your cognitive load, your emotional
load. And this is the most fucking

(41:07):
interesting one that I've ever heard of in my entire life.
What they call your. Oh fuck.
Your identity load, Yeah. And identity load is fucking
fascinating because what identity load is about is the
fact that to be you, to be like the person you are takes energy.

(41:29):
And like we, we talked about it a lot when we talked about like
masking, but just like, but it'salso like who you feel like you
have to be, who you feel like people are expecting you to be
and how to navigate that. So all of like that kind of
stuff becomes part of the cognitive load.
So which is why one of the places where we see people burn

(41:52):
out the most is in like caretaker roles or like advocacy
and like creative roles because like creativity and, and like
advocacy are tied to like who weare, are like our individuality,
like the way that we see ourselves in the world.
And so taking a break from beingan advocate or like taking a
break from being a creative can feel like we are abandoning our

(42:15):
identity. And then but but so like we
can't rest because everything that we're doing that we're
like, well, I enjoy it. I love making art.
I love being creative. I like advocating or making
educational videos or whatever that is still adding to the
cognitive and emotional and identity load that we are going
through. And so we're covering from

(42:36):
burnout means like eliminating those.
You have to get rid of the cognitive and the emotional and
the identity. I think we so hard especially to
talk about pathologizing if you have ADHD because when you have
a DHDA lot of times if it's not cognitively interesting or
emotionally interesting or basedin identity, it is boring as
fuck. Like making stuff is I is for

(42:59):
you. Like making stuff is a cognitive
load, but it is also an identityload.
So if I told you like, you're not allowed to make anything,
you're not allowed to make anything because you need rest,
you're going to be like, what doyou mean I can't fucking make
anything? That's what I do.
But like, because that is how you define yourself.
That is still part of your identity load and that's crazy.

(43:19):
Wow. Is that interesting?
Yeah, that's kind of blowing my entire goddamn mind right now.
Yeah, hold on. I did.
I just, I wrote, I did a video about it, so I have notes.
Hold on, let me get them up. Let me get them up because I
want to talk more about this. Hold on.
Hold on. Yeah, so OK.
And so, so yeah, so like identity load, I talked about

(43:40):
this in the video, so sorry if you saw a dear listener, but
like, so identity load, like when we're talking about it, it
is like self monitoring, social evaluation, error detection
systems like threat and rejection sensitivity with like
a lot of people with ADHD deal with, right.
So like you can be sitting stilland still be under identity

(44:03):
load. If you are like trying to like
be a certain way, like be present with your family, be
present with your kids, be present with your partner,
identity load, emotional load, right?
And then it also shows up as like, you know, if you, if you
feel like this need to be like the competent one or the capable
one, or being like the reliable person who never drops any of

(44:24):
the balls or like you have to bebecause like your partner isn't
like picking up their end of thebargain or like being the strong
one who doesn't need help. Being an expert, being an
educator, being a leader, being a community activist, like all
of those things are really heavyon on identity load.
And then like, and then that connects to like being
productive enough to justify rest, justify the experience of

(44:49):
needing rest and then like managing how others perceive
your effort. Like, do I look like, do I seem
like I'm putting in enough work?Do I seem like I'm worthy of
earning this rest? Like do I seem like I'm
upholding my commitments and this kind of thing?
Because being a flake, being somebody who drops the ball that
is, is like that feels bad because I have ADHD.

(45:12):
And so like people are already judging me and telling me that
I'm flaky. And so those things reflect on
our identity load. And so then, but then like
performing recovery correctly, there's a right way to rest, a
wrong way to rest. And if I'm resting the wrong
way, if it looks like I'm being lazy or if I'm just taking it
easier, abandoning my responsibilities, what are
people going to think? And so we disallow ourselves to

(45:33):
actively rest because we're worried about what people think
about the way that we are resting.
Shit fucked wild there's it sounds like there's almost a
contradiction in there. I don't mean to say that you are
making a contradiction, but I, well, not a contradiction, more
of like a paradox where the stress of thinking that if, if I

(45:57):
were to rest, I would also, I would invariably deal with the
identity load of having to wonder, am I seeming like the
type of person that I would wantto seem like, which is a person
who knows how to rest and rests correctly.
You know, like I have to do restcorrectly.
Otherwise I'm not the person I want to believe that I am.

(46:17):
But the entire study of this andthe value of having
conversations around this, is because it sounds like there is
a correct way to rest and involves putting aside your
emotional load, your cognitive load, and your identity load.
Yeah. So the iron there's a there's a
deep irony in there. Yeah.

(46:38):
Well, and, and it's, and one of the things that that they talk
about specifically, like some ofthe studies is the fact that
identity load actually prevents like, is one of the biggest
factors because like cognitive load is like, OK, I'll put on a
dumb show. I'll like, you know, I'll, I'll
not do a thing or whatever, but identity load is one of the most
insidious because identity load also kept like self monitoring.

(47:02):
So if we're resting, but we're spending all this time and
energy going like, Oh my God, amI resting right?
Am I resting correctly? Like am I, am I not identity
enough or whatever? So like not being able to stop
monitoring yourself and like that idea of like feeling
watched or like, like people areperceiving me even when I'm
alone. It's like, it's like how I hate

(47:23):
doing exercise videos because I know how I look even though if
there's even if there's no one home, I know that I look goofy
and stupid. And so I'm less likely to do a
yoga video because I know that I'm going to look dumb even if
there's nobody around to perceive me like that.
And then like, and then again, like rest feels like failure or
rest feels like disappointment because we are in this like

(47:44):
weird catch 22 of like there's aright way and a wrong way to
rest. But like, what it what am I
supposed to be doing? How am I supposed to be doing
this? And then like, also, but like,
oh, I'm a failure is like a mom or a creative or a advocate or
whatever, because I need rest. I shouldn't need rest.
I shouldn't have to rest. Rest is for the week or like
whatever. And so then recovery becomes
another performance. You're performing recovery,

(48:06):
you're performing rest, but you're not actually doing a type
of rest that is beneficial to you, the person who needs rest.
That's what's crazy is that we can start performing recovery in
a way and like performing rest in a way that is like, well,
this is what people think that I'm supposed I'd like.

(48:27):
I think this is what people wantfrom me instead of actually
honoring what we actually need. Yeah.
It's why it's it sounds like thesolution to that is something
along the lines of like, I mean,perhaps I don't, I don't know.
But but it's postulating here isto set aside like a period of
time when when you're experiencing Burnett go like all
right, from 6 to 9 or whatever period of time.

(48:51):
I'm going to not give a fuck. I'm going to not give a fuck
about, you know, taking on a large cognitive load.
I'm not going to take or give a fuck about taking on emotional
load. But I'm also not going to give a
fuck about what I feel like I should be doing.
You know, like, I have to actively not give a fuck about
how I seem to other people and to myself and like, yeah,

(49:13):
because. You have to like, you have to
like literally distance yourself.
Like they talk about in like some of the papers that I was
reading, they talk about like, OK, well, how do you fix it?
Like, like what's the solution? And like the number one thing is
like you have to lower the stakes.
Like you have to lower the stakes.
But then the next thing is like visibility, like reducing
visibility. Like maybe that means like, you

(49:34):
know, participating in less or like not putting everything on
the Internet or like, you know, whatever.
But then like deke, this is someone that I'm just like, fuck
you, fuck you so hard, but decoupling your output from your
worse. And that's where that like, I
don't give a fuck what I seem like.
I'm just going to do this thing that like feels right for me
gets really, really interesting because it's like, how the fuck

(49:57):
do I even begin to do that? Like, how do I learn to like not
give a fuck what people think orlike, you know, and that can be
really hard, especially if you carry like a lot of trauma
around like, well, I have to be productive because, you know,
whatever. Yeah, I can imagine.
I'm wondering if you like you can practice, you know, like.
You can. There's a do you want to Do you

(50:18):
want to know about the at home test you can do?
Yes, I very much do. So if you're, if you're
wondering whether or not like anactivity that you're doing is
associated with identity load, you can do like a little test,
which is where you just stop doing the thing like like you,
you doing a thing, stop it, whatever it might be.
And if you feel panic, if you feel shame, if you feel fear, if

(50:43):
you fear, like if you feel fear around becoming irrelevant or
fear around like losing your sense of self, like if I don't
do this, if I don't make little instruments, who am I?
What, what am I to the world? And if and if you fear that like
that rest, like you have to justify that stopping, that is a
really good indication that thatactivity actually carries a lot

(51:04):
of identity load and probably should be something that you
avoid while you're trying to recover from burnout.
Holy shit. The answer was yes to all of
those. Absolutely.
Fuck me, dude. Wow.
Yeah. Like, like yesterday I was.
It was like 6:00 PM or something.
And I was like, I'm just gonna sit on the ground and watch.

(51:26):
There's the show called The Great North.
It's made by the same people by as Bob's Burgers, and it stars
Nick Offerman. And it's a very cozy show and
everything works out in the end,and everybody's very nice to
each other. And I was like, I just kind of
want to sit there and watch thisshow.
But then I was like, that's not what Eric would do.
Because Eric's a weird, quirky guy.
You know, Eric's a weird, quirkymaker of things.

(51:48):
And then I started looking around and I found the body for
an instrument and the neck for an instrument.
And I made a little violin thingand it was very fun.
I enjoyed every second of it. But like, that's why I
originally why I did that was not because I like definitely
wanted to. I mean, part of me absolutely
did. But what got me over the hump
was because that's what Eric does.

(52:08):
And if I don't do that, then I'mjust some guy watching TV.
Yeah. And then, yeah.
And then it's like, but who are you performing that for?
Because you don't be there. Yeah.
And so it's like that's like that identity load is I have to
be. Well, I gotta go back up to this
one part. Yeah, the the emotional effort
required to maintain, protect, perform or reconcile who you

(52:31):
believe you are, what others expect you to be, and who you
feel like you must be in order to be, to belong, to be safe or
feel valued or worthy of rest. Wow.
Yeah, interesting, right. And so like a bunch of people, a
bunch of people got like mad. They got mad at me because like,

(52:53):
I made this video and I was like, yeah.
So like, that's why a lot of times, like rest just really
looks like sitting on the couch,have a blanket, drink some hot
tea, watch a dumb show that you've watched a million times.
People are like, well, I want towatch a new show.
I'm like, that's cognitive load.Like, well, I want to read a new
book. That's cognitive load.
Like I want to do this Saturday.That's emotional load.
That's identity load. That's cognitive load, you know,

(53:13):
Well, I want to draw. I want to make art.
OK, Well, that that might work if you are able to just doodle
and draw mindlessly without any sort of evaluation or judgment
or interpretation or like task management and prioritization.
And like, OK, I have to like getout my watercolors and I have to
like clean up afterwards and I have to like make a little space
in a little area. But otherwise that's not rest

(53:34):
dog, that's not rest dog. Like.
And so like, I can't just doodle.
Like I can just doodle for like 30 seconds at a time.
And there can be like, you can'tdo that.
You can't like have like those mindfulness moments of like for
30 seconds. I'm just going to give my
permission myself permission, just make a little doodle and
not like think anything about it.
But the minute you start thinking, the minute you start
being like, well, I'm an artist,I should be able to do better or

(53:56):
oh, I could do this better, whatever.
Cognitive, emotional like. Wow.
Like that's interesting because I doodle constantly and I, I do
not judge my doodles. I don't sit there and think I
should do this better. I could be better, I should be
better. I don't do that.
Yeah. So then that could be for you a
really great Restful activity. But.
Restorative. But I am doing it because I want

(54:20):
to be a guy who doodles while hewatches TV like I am.
There is definitely a performance aspect to it of
like, because I'm a creative, soI want to think of myself as a
creative. So I don't just watch TVI
doodle. And in fact, I'm such a creative
that I don't even judge myself if they're not good.
Like that itself is sort of a performance in front of myself.

(54:43):
Yeah, it gets to like, you know,And so like, yeah, it's crazy.
And so like for me, like my basic thing is just like
bathtub, like just being in the bathtub, put on some like
ambient music, throw on a Galaxyprojector.
Like that's been one of the bestplaces that I can really sort of
focus on like rest. Because even if I am like, oh, I
think about like the thing that I need to do or that thing that
I should have done, I can just be like, Yep, that's the thought

(55:05):
that I'm having. And I can sort of like move
forward from it. But like so many people with
ADHD feel this need to like, I have to be doing something like
rest best is reading a book or, or you know, like listening to a
new podcast, whatever. It's like, yeah, there's like a
mindless stupid podcast that youwant to listen to or like,
whatever, fine, that's totally fine.
But it's like, I am only going to watch Dropout shows because

(55:25):
I'm such a good person and like,you know, like, well, I'm so
smart and clever or whatever. Then that again becomes like
tied to identity, you know, So it's like it's, yeah, it's like
really interesting once you start like parsing out like what
is and isn't REST based on your individual circumstances and
your connection to like how and why and when you consume media.

(55:46):
Because some people could just like, listen to a new audio book
and be fine. But I like to read dense
historical non fiction treatiseswritten by academics.
Like that's not, that's cognitive, that's identity.
So like, that's not restful for me.
Like it might feel like it, but it's actually not.
But yeah. Yeah, God, Interesting that.

(56:06):
That's gonna be fucked up for days.
Yeah, I, yeah, I because becauseit's, it's it's in, in there's
there's the, you know, as a white guy, I have to bring up
Rick and Morty at least once a day.
And there's legally and there's in the Mesics episode, Jerry's
learning to golf better and trying to, and someone says try

(56:27):
to relax and he says, have you ever tried to relax?
It's a paradox. You know, you can't try to
relax. But like rest, it seems like
that's sort of is the case for rest is if you are actively like
trying to do the rest thing, you're not like, you can't try,

(56:48):
but you have to try because if you don't try, you're not going
to do it. So, so it's like a, you know,
it's, it's, it's like a quantitything.
Like if you're actively trying really hard to maintain your
identity while also resting, butresting in the way that you
think you should read like that whole thing.
And it seems like that's not rest.
But if you're resting in a like,I'm just going to do the little
like the minimum possible thing and just sit here and watch a

(57:10):
show I've seen before and like you're still trying.
But like, it's like a different type of try.
It's not like a performance try.It's like a.
And something that I thought wasreally interesting that it
annoys the fuck out of me is that a lot of it is, is it's
weird. It seems counterintuitive, but
it's actually not. It's structuring rest like

(57:31):
literally actually structure. Like kind of what you're saying,
like 6 to 9. I'm not going to give a fuck.
That's literally what they talk about.
Is that like, OK, an hour a day,2 hours a day, whatever.
From 7:00 to 8:00 PM, I'm going to sit on the couch.
I'm going to drink tea and I'm going to stare at the ceiling,
or I'm going to watch Parks and Recreation for the 10 thousandth
time or whatever it may be. But always doing it.

(57:53):
Always doing it. Because what you are doing is
not only are you engaging in like a somewhat restful
activity, you were also trainingyour brain to be able to trust
yourself into like, into leaninginto that system.
So it becomes, it's like, it's sort of like how like a dog gets
excited for dinner and then like, then then they know that

(58:15):
it's dinner time, which is like a really weird example, but
like, that's, that's it. And so like, as you start
participating in this structure,then it, your body goes, OK,
like, I know that today I'm going to get a chance to be
safe. And so that helps build like
resistance and resilience in terms of recovering from burnout

(58:35):
and like reaching your nervous system to like relax and slow
down. But sorry, I just screamed that
into the microphone. But that also is then coupled
with the challenge of like ADHD and sticking to a schedule and
like management and prioritization and time
perception differences and all of this stuff.
And so it's like you read like there's so much intentionality

(58:56):
behind burnout that. And that's the thing that I feel
like we don't talk about enough.Like that's the thing we don't
talk about enough is that every part of burnout recovery has to
be intentional, like examining what you're doing, when you're
doing it, how you're doing it, why you're doing it, even where
you're doing it. Like are you, are you recovering
on the couch in front of people?Are you doing it like in your

(59:17):
bedroom where you can just kind of like lay on the floor and
like, lol or, or, or do you haveto, are you doing it around
people where you feel the need to like also do a little doodle
so they know that you're super creative and, and, and clever,
You know, like all of it. You really have to intentionally
come at and when you're in the throes of burnout, that
intentionality can be really, really difficult and really,

(59:37):
really difficult to navigate. So yeah, it's just like this
mass. And then it's like, and we're
all laboring under capitalism. So with what time and energy and
money do you do this? You know, because our systems
are broken and our world is destroying us from the inside
out. Yes, it's very much that that
that is Austria. We are so incentivized to do not

(01:00:00):
that you know, like in every wayand.
Even if we are like faux incentivized, you know, like
some cushy commercial comes on and says, take time for
yourself. Like they're selling you
chocolate, you know, like they're not actually.
Like we're so trained to believethat even restful times are
meant to be spent in a certain correct way, monetized.

(01:00:23):
Or consuming. Or productive, you know, you're
practicing a skill that might beuseful to an employer later or
something. You know, if I learn to draw,
then I can, you know, get work as a court sketch artist or
something. I don't know.
The other interesting thing thatI thought was really that
actually really helped me a lot is that rest doesn't always mean
that you have to be like at rest, like immobile.

(01:00:46):
Because actually for some people, that somatic component,
the somatic element of like moving your body and teaching
your body to move in ways that aren't like caring, stress and
anxiety, that could be really important.
So thing like, you know, there'sdifferent thing like you can,
you can do yoga, but again, likethere's like identity component,
like that kind of stuff. But you know, like walking like

(01:01:09):
a weird number of the resources that I looked at talked about
like specifically like rocking, like like just like rocking
repetitive movement. I was like, I see you autistic,
autistic kids, you know, I was like, they got it figured out.
The autistic have it figured out.
It's coded into their into theirDNA.
They already know. They're born knowing.
Them good goods. Well that's what stimming is.
Stimming is just self regulatorybehavior and so it can actually

(01:01:31):
be really useful for burnout recovery is to engage in those
stems that you might not otherwise do, which I think it's
like really cool. But yeah, like repetitive
movement and like non goal oriented walking like, and
that's The thing is like you can't be like, I'm going to go
for a mile or I'm going to go for an hour.
I'm going to walk to the grocerystore.

(01:01:53):
It's like you have to really setthe intention of I'm going to
walk until I don't feel like walking anymore, and then I'll
go home. And so like, but like planning
it out, that again becomes like a cognitive load and you might
start judging yourself. But like, oh, I didn't get as
far as I wanted to. So it's more about like moving
your body in a way that is just for the sake of movement.
And and does that, does that also count for like non like

(01:02:16):
measurable goals, non quantifiable goals?
Like if you're walking because you're like, oh, I'm walking
because I want to, sure, but also for like my heart health or
to be good to my dog or something like that.
Does that also count as like goal oriented walking?
I. Don't know.
I didn't see a lot of that in like just the stuff that I was
reading, but like I don't like Idon't know that it almost feels

(01:02:39):
like a two birds, one stone thing, but it also could be like
an emotional thing because like if I don't take my dog for a
walk because I'm too tired to take my dog for a walk, am IA
terrible dog mom. Am I a piece of shit who's
abusing my dog because I'm not taking my dog out as frequently
as I should? You know, that can get like very
emotional. So I could see that being like
an emotional load, but I don't know about like for my heart
health. I don't.

(01:02:59):
Know because I would like because for me, if I were to
take a walk like in the in part of my head would always be like,
good for you. Like yeah, this is what you're
supposed to like. There would be a performative
like performing for myself aspect to like.
I don't think the whole time, I don't think I would just be
sitting there glazing myself. But I think that would be the
hardest part for me is not asking myself like what does

(01:03:21):
this mean about me that I'm doing this?
Is this making a better or worseperson that this is what I'm
doing? Is it making a more interesting
or less interesting person that this is what I'm doing like
that? That's hard for me because like
I'm I'm I'm good at accepting, you know, like I can I can couch
rot with the best of them. Like I'm good at accepting like,
all right, I'm not going to do anything cooler interesting for

(01:03:42):
a little while, but I do still consider it like a commentary on
myself, you know, like I don't consider it just this a side
restful thing. It's still a data point that
says something about me, you know, and like that's, I think
it's, I think that's just partially like a self obsession
kind of thing, you know, like. Yeah, I can see it.
I'm I'm just thinking about me, but but but ultimately I think

(01:04:02):
that's the part that I would have a really hard time setting
aside. I think it's, I think some of it
is just like a, like anything, any activity, whether it's going
for a walk or making a little doodle or, I don't know, doing
yoga can be restful in conversation with burnout repair
or it can be draining, dependingon like how it's framed, you

(01:04:26):
know, So like if you're doing yoga and you're like, Oh my God,
I'm such a good person because I'm doing yoga.
Like, you know, that's very different than like my body
needs to heal, my nervous systemneeds to reset.
And so I'm going to take this moment to be like intentionally
connected with my body, you know, like, and so like a lot of
times they talk about like pressure, like pressure and

(01:04:46):
consistency. So if you feel pressure to like,
oh, I have to go for a walk every day or I have to do yoga
every day or like, if I don't doit every day, I'm a failure and
I'm fucked up and I'm lazy. It's not restful.
It just becomes another thing that you have to do.
And if you like are if you're narrating it from like a
position of like, if I do this thing that I will stave off

(01:05:09):
burnout. If I do this thing, I will, you
know, it will cure me of my backpain or whatever.
That gets like a little Daisy aswell.
You know, I'm really. Curious like if there's like a
brain scan way to measure it, you know, like if we could
figure out exactly measurably what we're trying to have happen

(01:05:29):
in our, in our nervous system, Like that would be a cool, that
would be a cool thing to, to, toresearch.
Because then it's like, you know, this stuff, this stuff and
interestingly, water polo, you know, like do this weird thing
in your brain. The the, the I can't find that I
lost the study. I lost the study where they
talked about it, but there was this this article or I can't

(01:05:52):
remember where I read it. I read it somewhere, but there
was this thing about like the idea of rest is can be basically
foundationally distilled into being unremarkable.
We are told over and over and over that like being remarkable,
being the most specialist, bestest little guy is the thing
that gives you value, gives you worth.

(01:06:13):
But so like, rest has to be unremarkable.
You have to be unremarkable whenyou are resting or it's not
actually rest. Wow.
Yeah, that shit sucks. That's pretty concise.
That's that's really good. Like spend time unremarkably.
Yeah, like you can just be a guywatching TV.

(01:06:33):
Wow. You can just be a girl going for
a walk. That's really concise and and
and useful. That's I like that a lot.
Spend time unremarkably. Yeah.
Apropos of nothing, yeah, I heard that we just recorded an
audio book. We did.
Yeah, we did last. Week.
Yeah, we did. It was like a whole thing.

(01:06:54):
We went to a studio. Simon and Schuster bought us
lunch. I rented a car.
You rented a car. It's the worst car I've ever.
Driven. It's not a good car.
It's a terrible car. Jeep, you fucking suck with
terrible car. But you, listener, we did record
an audio book. It's coming out along with our
actual book, which is coming outon March 3rd.

(01:07:16):
It's available for pre-order nowand it's.
Called. The ADHD.
Field. Guide Field guide for adults.
Nailed it. Nailed it.
Crushed it. There's a delay.
I'm blaming it on the delay. This is the worst book plug ever
because it's not out for a couple months but.
Just keep it in your mind. In your mind, Keep it in your

(01:07:39):
memory. Consider thinking about
purchasing it when it comes out in March.
Yeah, if you want. To preorder it if you want, but
like, I know how it goes. I know how it goes.
If you if you're like, I am definitely going to buy it when
it comes out. I'm just waiting for it to come
out. It would help us out a little
bit if you preordered it, you know, it would make the
publishers, a little publishers happy.

(01:08:00):
So if you're like already sold and you're definitely going to
buy it, you know, if it's a coinflip slightly, you know,
preorder would be cool. But otherwise, you know, until
we tell you what to do. Also, do you want to know a fun
fact about our book? Was that?
I have been doing some research and I cannot say with 100%
certainty because sometimes you can't like look all the way
inside books and it's a little dicey.

(01:08:22):
But I am fairly certain, Eric, that we are the first book in
the history of books about ADHD to specifically and concretely
talk about trans and non binary people.
Jesus, really. Yeah, that's I think we are the
1st. I mean, cool, but that's
depressing. Wow.

(01:08:44):
Yeah, but I'm proud of that. Well, yeah, that's pretty cool.
Alright. I'm proud of that.
I'm proud of that. Hell yes.
Hell to the yes. That is pretty cool.
So you at the banned books party, I mean, you know that our
book might get banned, right? You know that like there's like
a very highlight 'cause we talk about like trans and queer and
non binary people and we also talk about sex and intimacy.

(01:09:05):
There is a very high likelihood that our.
Botchism. Yeah, Yeah, I hope.
We get that. If our book is finished, I'm
going to make that my entire fucking personality for the next
rest of my lifetime. So I like want it.
I'm like, fucking do it. I fucking dare you.
Fucking dare you clowns that. Would be pretty cool, like,

(01:09:25):
because if you're like, yeah, I'm a published author, like
that's cool. I'm a published author and my
book got banned by the government.
Like that's cool. I mean, I hope they don't start
banning books to that extent, obviously, but that is pretty
cool. Like just as in the
autobiography or in the biography of a person?
'S life banned book so funny. Well, thanks for talking to me

(01:09:48):
today, Katie. It was good to see you.
Having a meet today. And thanks for being here, dear
listener. Yeah, dear listener.
I hope your drive went well. Yeah, hope your dishes got done.
Hope your laundry got folded. Or maybe we're lulling you to
sleep. Who knows at which point, you're
probably asleep by now. That's rather definitely asleep.

(01:10:11):
Yeah, OK. That's, oh, that's public
domain. That's public domain.
Fine. Come.
Zoomy Disney. Come zoomy Disney.
All right, friends, remember to drink some water this week.
Remember to eat a snack. Remember to take your mutts.
Remember to be kind yourself. Remember to be kind to others.

(01:10:32):
And remember that. We love you.
All right, Well, see you again. Actually, next week is
Christmas, so don't. We won't be back next week.
Go listen to the Katiosaurus holiday special instead.
Go watch that on YouTube. Oh.
My gosh, do that. Maybe we can.
Could we just put the as a podcast?
We yeah, we could. If you're OK with putting it

(01:10:54):
here. Yeah, that would be cool.
I'll take the, I'll take the lessons.
Cool, cool all. Right.
Well, and also it's got, it's got like a laugh track.
So Oh yeah, because it's a live audience.
It's a live studio audience that's.
Pretty cool. That's so weird that I did a
show for a live studio audience.You did.
You did do that. That's pretty cool.
I'm like really proud of it but I feel like I can't talk about
it because all my friends are tired of hearing me talk about

(01:11:16):
it. It's very cool.
But like, I'm pretty proud of it.
I'm not going to lie to you. Most people are not tired of
talking to you hear about it because they haven't yet heard
you talk about it. So there you go.
Check out next week's awesome episode with a live studio
audience.