The Pathological Demand Avoidance of Stardew Valley

Episode Transcript
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(00:07):
Did I tell you that we got an application for Brian?
Really. Yes.
Do you want me to? I need to actually, you know
what, change the podcast. Changing the podcast No.
Well, it's the same podcast but I need to get my laptop.
OK, you need to hear this e-mail.
A gentle, even tide. I'm busy.
Both Lord Goode and Lady Osborne, this humble missive

(00:27):
finely and goodly cheer. Pray allow me to present myself
as a humble servant in my quest for knowledge and mirth.
It is with great joy and earnestness that Ioffer myself
as thy Brian, a most diligent and faithful companion in thy
podcasting endeavors. I shall strive to bring forth
tidings of great import and merciful tidbits to thy
illustrious discourse, much likea devoted scribe of old.

(00:49):
Shouldst thou find favour in my humble offerings, I pledge to be
at that beck and call, ever ready to assist in thy noble
quest and curious queries. With highest regard and deepest
respect, thy humble scribe. Ryan.
Brian Jones. And then I forgot to respond.
Ryan, Brian. See the e-mail.
Ryan, Ryan, Ryan Brian sent follow up.

(01:09):
Very polite. Very polite follow up was the
same. Lord given Lady Osborne, I pray
this brief parchment does not prove an untimely intrusion, but
rather a soft knock upon the door of your manifold thoughts.
For fear that my prime missive, most humbly penned and earnestly
sent sorry Ryan, hath been swallowed by the sea of letters
and tidings that surely find their way to the each day.
He's not wrong. I do write once more, if only to

(01:31):
gently stir thy memories Embers.Classiest touching, bassing all
phrasing I've ever heard. Memories.
Embers. Memories, embers, let's go so
hard. Memories embers.
Yes, that's just an awesome set of words right there.
Memories Embers. I have a collection of fun
sounding phrases and I'm adding that to the list it.
Is so with joy and full hearted readiness that Ioffer my quill,

(01:54):
wit and loyalty as thy faithful Brian, ever eager to serve thy
noble discourse. So this second note, finally, at
a more convenient hour, I'd be honored beyond measure to be
considered for service within thy most illustrious venture.
With enduring respect and cheerful anticipation, thy
humble scribe Ryan Bryan. Thanks, Ryan.
Bryan. Thanks, Ryan.
Wow, Way to fucking shoot your shot.
I love that. That's like.

(02:16):
Wow, I love it. That's really awesome.
That's like putting a resume on like beautiful, Whatever paper
you're like, if I'm going to do it, I want it to be the one they
remember you. Know showing up at like a
fashion design house and with like your resume embroidered on
a skirt. Yeah, yes, you know what I mean.
Awesome. Yeah, awesome memories, Embers.
Memories. Embers.
Memories, embers. I love that.

(02:37):
Well, dude, Brian, that's awesome.
Yeah, the the thing that we don't have any money is what it
is, Ryan Bryan, is that we wouldlove to have you, but we can't
afford to pay you. And we believe in paying
artists. And also I'm Brian.
You're very good at brining. I'm I'm way worse at brining.

(02:59):
I can't look something up and like have a thing at the same
time. I can't do it.
I just. Well, Speaking of that, can I
make can I tell the people aboutthe the infinite quest thing?
Sure, yeah. So maybe, maybe, probably
Infinite Quest may or may not beexpanding into a podcast network

(03:21):
that will be available soonish, but I have been approached about
producing another mental health podcast.
Nice. How?
About teens and mental health, which I'm very excited about,
but it would mean that I would be Brian.
I would. Yeah, there, Brian.
You would be the Brian of those people.
I'd be the Brian, Brian, Brian. So it would be like 2-2 cool

(03:43):
teen hosts talking about cool teen.
Stuff I like. Fucking millennial ass.
Like OK. Forward air conditioning, right?
Yomi taught me how about the housing crisis when it was
happening. Like do you know what I really
want to do is like, I know it'd be weird to like invite myself
onto the podcast, but I want to be like, what is it like going
to school with like active shooter drills?

(04:03):
Which is the right active shooter drills way to but like
we didn't like my school did notdo those.
That was like just before my time and so.
Wow, yeah, I mean, I think that what's weird, Like we, I had
them in school. Hardest right?
I was like a whimsical fucking producer.
E-mail School. Shooter shooter drills.

(04:25):
Jesus Christ, We, we had them. But it was also like, it was
sort of like, you know how like one guy fucking tried to put a
bomb in his shoes. And so now we have to take our
shoes. Off.
Not anymore. Not anymore.
The scanny things are better nowI guess.
Yeah, they, they made a tweet. They were like, you can keep
your shoes on everybody. And then people were like, wait,
really? And yeah.
And. This is a total assumption, but

(04:46):
yet another way that modern society rests on the backs of
autistic scientists and engineers who are just dial the
fuck in and go, I hate taking myshoes off at the airport.
I'm going to invent a better thing.
Like, that's what's happening. But it was sort of like that
where it wasn't like, it was like fun Columbine happened.
It was horrifying. And so now it's like, OK, we're
going to prepare for that eventuality now.
But now they're doing it where it's like it's not uncommon

(05:09):
anymore. Like, yeah.
And that's. Yeah, that must be.
That's different. Yeah, I was.
Like that has to affect your mental health.
I don't know. I was like, what else do they
use? Worry about Orbeez.
Orbeez. Do you figure you put them in a
pool? Yeah, well, wondering if they'll
ever have enough Orbeez to fill a pool one day.
I mean, like the backyard scientist, I was the backyard.
Scientist A shocking number of the youths want to be social

(05:31):
media people. Like that's I've noticed that.
Yeah, career, which is weird that like we have a career like
a bunch of the youths want and like our old busty asses are
like, I know, like making, making.
Talking about how terrible it isnow, Eric.
Back in my day go. Back in my day, oh back in my
day, we used to hang out at skate shops.

(05:53):
I don't know if people still hang out at skate shops anymore,
but like if I need if I need a new bearings now for like my
skateboard, I could order them from a million different places.
I wouldn't have to leave the shedder where I spend most of my
time. But back in the day, if you need
to go to the skate shop, you would be like, dude, I'm going
to the skate shop. Who else needs to go to the
skate shop? And they're like, oh, I could
use Snoop bands. And so it end up being like this
little trip where your parents would drive you and you bring

(06:15):
your boards and you go. And the whole point, the whole
point was to look cool to the people that worked at the skate
shop. Because if it was a good skate
shop, the people who worked at the skate shop were fucking
cool, dude. And I don't mean cool like they
necessarily dressed cool or likethey acted cool, but they were
just cool. Like they knew how to skate.
They knew what their lives were about.
They're like, yeah, I work here.You know, I'm making enough

(06:36):
money to pay my rent and stuff. And I just all day skating, you
know, like they just were so cool.
So you'd go and you would like try to look cool with your
friends in front of these guys. And looking back, I think they
were just stoked that there werekids still skating because they
were all like, you know, 30 something, whatever.
And like now I'm a 30 something,whatever.
And when I see kids skating, I'mlike, cool kids are still
skating. Like that's awesome because

(06:57):
skateboarding is a really ruthless fucking hobby.
Like the amount of failure involved to skate, like if you
see a kid do a thing on a skateboard, I mean, it's like
that's true for any skill. But like the amount of times
that that thing is whipped around and hit him in the shin
instead of landing it, like hundreds and hundreds and
hundreds and hundreds of more times than they have landed that
trick. And like just their relationship

(07:18):
to failure, you know, it's just awesome.
I really admire it. I don't talk about it much on
this podcast, but my brother wasvery skateboarding.
We had a halfpipe in our backyard.
Oh my God. Really?
Yeah, there was a guy named Adamin my neighborhood who had a
skateboard thing and he was likethe cool.
Everybody in school knew that hehad it.
That's awesome. Did you guys like have people
overall time scoot skating around?

(07:39):
Yeah, I used to go to the skate shop with my brother.
Cool. And I liked the stickers.
Oh yeah, great stickers in the skate shops.
I have thought the stickers werecool.
I tried skateboarding once but then I wasn't immediately got at
it until I quit. But yeah, I didn't build the
half pipe in her backyard. You built the half pipe.
No shit. Is it still there?
What happened? Dude just dismantle at some
point do. You want to hear a really funny

(08:00):
story with my childhood always. OK, I want to explain telling
the story that I realized that this is funny, but it also is
the type of funny where you're like, wow, what an immense
amount of privilege. So like, scandal noted.
OK, scandal noted. But also it's important in the
story for you to understand thatmy mom is unique.

(08:21):
My mom is a unique human. And the way that she thinks is
unique. So one year for Christmas, Well,
my brother really liked music. My brother was like a musician.
And he was really talented at being a musician.
He's great. He was one of those obnoxious
people where, like, if you put guitar and tan, he'd be like,
good at it in an hour and a half.
Disgusting. But so one year he was like,

(08:44):
really into music. And I was really into music at
the same time. And so we, we were in a band
together for a while. What?
Yeah, We were in a band togetherwith my friend Andrea Mendola,
who was the bassist. We need one song, and it was
Good Charlotte's The Anthem. Nice.
And that, is that different thanthe band that was about
cryptids? Yes.
That was different college. Fans.
Wow. So you've been in two.

(09:05):
That's twice as many bands as I've been in.
How have you never been in a band?
I've been in, I suppose, 2 bands.
Yeah, I guess. Well, so you've been in two and.
2. 22 and two Paper St. Soap Company and my friend Nick
Eaton and I got kicked off stageat Battle of the bands for
swearing too much because it wasmy freshman year and he said it
was fine to swear. So we played Fuck her gently by
Tenacious D and got like 2 linesin and they were like no Anyways

(09:29):
that's a different story. That's very.
Funny speak, Songbird Speak was the name of the band that I was
in in college for like approximately 2 1/2 weeks.
But I think somewhere online themusic exists.
I'm like a like a Myspace. I don't even What are those deep
in the? Zengas.
Do you remember Zenga? I do remember Zengas.
Yeah, but anyway, OK, so anyway,my brother was new music, I was

(09:51):
new music. And so one year for Christmas,
me and my brother like cumulatively asked my mom for
like 50 different CDs because back in my day you had my CD
just to get your music. Yeah, down at Basteau.
Down you would go to the What were those?
What were those fucking things called?
RE eyes, no that's not. Right, REI, That's a sporting

(10:11):
goods store. What, like a CD?
Shop. What was it called?
I can't remember the name of theCD.
Store. I don't know, CDs were just on
their way out when I started actually listening to music.
But they were like in the mall, they would have like records and
CDs and shit and you would go inyou.
Remember, like the name of a store?
Yeah. What was it was it was like in
the mall. They were like everywhere
because you could get like CDs and shit like Best Buy

(10:31):
sometimes. Best Buy, yeah.
Actual CD stores? I don't know.
I guess I should be. Brian right now, yeah, that's
going to bother the fuck out of me.
Like early 2000s CD store at themall.
A bunch of people are fucking screaming in the car.
I'm. Imagining people in trouble
being like you dumb bitch. Early 2000s CD store in the

(10:56):
mall. I've I'm.
I'm typing I. Feel like REI is right.
Let's see, we got Sam Goody. OK, yes, that was one of them.
Tower Records. OK.
An FYE. FYE, that's what it was for your
entertainment. OK, there were.
Letters. There were letters.
Yeah. I see where you were going for.

(11:16):
Yeah. So we each this is a long and
winding Rd. but anyway so so my brother and I each wanted a
bunch of CDs and so my mom was like I know what I'll do.
So we come home one night and there's a man in our backyard
pouring concrete and we're like what the fuck is this?
And my mom, like, triumphantly is like, well, you both wanted

(11:40):
so many CDs for Christmas, I thought I would just build you a
recording studio. What?
So that way you could make your own CDs because you both like
music so much. Well, that's really awesome.
And so, yeah, and so my like at this point, the half, the half
pipe was like pretty rotted and shitty.
And so they demolished the hash pipe, the hash pipe, the half

(12:01):
pipe, different thing. That's a real very different
thing. They demolished like the half
pipe and they built like a little like outbuilding little 9
by 12 garden shed. And that is to this day.
My mom refers to it as the musichouse.
That's cool. What's in there now?
My mom's files from being a lawyer and an exercise bike.

(12:22):
And an exercise bike. Yeah, exercise bikes always make
their way into the least used space.
And the Thing and I. Think it's got a couple of like
those like clothes hanger bags on.
It you. Know you always got like a
couple hangers on the handlebars.
What? What was the story behind
building the half pipe? How old were you when that one
up I. Was probably what, probably 17?

(12:43):
No, that's not true. 14 or 15. My brother was like just under a
year younger than me so. That's really fucking sweet.
I always would have crushed if Ican kill to have a goddamn half
pipe. But also you built it and I
think that's cool along with having a half pipe.
Like having the experience of building the cool thing.
Invaluable. Invaluable A.

(13:04):
Bunch of my brothers runs out like I remember like it was it
was like a weird day of like this like thing just like a like
we were just like fuck it, let'sdo it and do 1.
And so, yeah, it was like a little did.
You ever drop in? God?
No. It's terrifying.
Yeah. No, I I did not.
My brother really wanted me to learn how to skateboard, but I
just would get so scared. Yeah.
And so, yeah. Dropping in is one of those

(13:26):
things to anybody thinking aboutlearning to drop in or learning
to skate. At some point you will go to the
skate park and you will put yourskateboard on the edge of the
coping rail at the at the top ofthe of like 1/4 pipe, half pipe
thing. And it will be the most
terrifying moment of your life. Like you can look at like even
really small ones when you look at them, you're like off OK,

(13:48):
you'll see somebody doing it looks so easy.
And then you stand up there and it is horrifying.
And in that moment, A7 year old will do it perfectly right next
to you. Then you're going to do it and
you're going to fall harder thanyou've ever flown in your life
and it is going to be terrifyingand horrible.
And then that 7 year old is going to be really helpful and
very supportive and they're going to do their best to
describe you how to do it because that's what 7 year old

(14:08):
skaters do. They're just cool.
What's? Why do is you keep your weight
on your back leg? Until just bow.
Ready for the drop in and then you fall and they're like haha
you fucking idiot and. Then they spit on you and.
They're. Like ruthlessly make fun of you
and only a way that somebody whohasn't signed a social contract
yet can do just brutally. But no, I don't know if I ever

(14:29):
actually learned to drop in. I was, I learned to skate so
that I could film my friends whoskated because we used to make
little skate videos and stuff before YouTube's, before
YouTube. So like 2003, 2004 and I would
skate around with them, I would run next to them for a while,
but it would make the things shaky.
So I learned to skate just so I keep up with them.
So I was never really concerned with like learning tricks and
stuff, you know, I was more concerned with making the

(14:51):
footage cool. Like that's, that was sort of my
thing because skate videos in the early 2000s, man, awesome.
Like they were just a vibe, dude.
They were just a vibe and they were fun and they ever shook
themselves too seriously. So that was my sort of
aspiration. So I wanted to make skate
videos. Do you know who is reclaiming
the skate video vibe? But for a modern audience?
And this is the answer is going to surprise you.

(15:12):
Who? The cameraman for the Savannah
Bananas. The Savannah bananas.
The Savannah bananas. Is that a band?
No, it's a minor League Baseballteam.
Awesome. Who have gone so viral that like
they're they're in Georgia, but the they're so like their
waiting list for tickets is like3 million people deep.

(15:32):
Like it's insane how popular they've gotten, but yeah, this
vada bananas, their cameraman islike part of it.
And so all of their walk UPS to like go to bat and stuff are
like these like epic music videos.
Awesome. Where they come out of the
dugout and they're like lip syncing and the guys following
them, they like do and all this like crazy shit and then they
just walk up to the plate and then it's like their turn.

(15:53):
And so they have to do a musicalnumber and then bat.
I feel like, but that calm your nerves or make it worse?
I don't know. I feel like I would calm my
nerves but then I would just be totally distracted.
I'd be like, oh, what if I did alittle twist thing or something?
Oh that's right, fuck, I'm playing baseball.
Jesus Christ like. Oh man, I really like missed
that entrance. Dude, is it is it 1-2 step or

(16:14):
123 step? I don't, I don't.
Oh shit. Jesus Christ, was that a slider?
Your elbow up. The fastest, actually, I want
to. I want to pitch this to the
audience real quick. Fastest Major League pitch ever
recorded was 108.1 mph. I'm flubbing to .1.
It was, I think it was, I think it was .108 mph.
Somebody just beat it like last week.

(16:35):
Maybe maybe that's why, because I saw it came up on my thing, so
maybe that's why. But what's crazy?
Like if you're throwing a thing,however fast The thing is going,
at some point a part of your body was also moving that fast,
presumably like the tip of theirfinger.
I don't really fucking know anything about pitching, but
like some part of their body wasgoing 108 mph.
And the reason things like falling from a great height or

(16:57):
running really fast into a wall,the reason that hurts and the
reason that like does damage is not necessarily the it's, it's
the fact that you're stopping ina very small amount of space.
So you imagine if you had a big net that you fell into, you're
going 120 mph, let's say you're falling from an airplane or
something like that. It increases the amount of time
it takes you to stop, whereas ifyou're just hit the ground, you

(17:18):
stop almost immediately. So increasing the distance and
duration that it takes to expendthe energy is what makes
something safe versus unsafe when it comes to like impacts.
So if a pitcher's arm is going from rest like at shoulders, and
then they do like a one and theydo a thing and then accelerates
to 108 mph and then stops in like the 2 foot follow through

(17:44):
going from 108 mph to rest in two feet and you know, 1/4 of a
second. How does that not just explode
their hand? Because like I can understand a
person doing that like once and then not having a very useful
hand for the rest of their lives.
But like doing that over and over and over again for like a
career. Like how is it physiologically

(18:06):
possible that that's the case? Maybe that's a question for
TikTok, but I've just been thinking about it a lot lately
because like if I throw something as hard as I can once,
like I can throw things pretty hard and pretty far like once or
twice. But after the second, like my
hand is throbbing, my shoulders thrown out.
Anyways, that's a huge aside. But I've been thinking about it
for at least an hour every day for the last like week.

(18:26):
Been a good week. Been a fun week for for sitting
thinking. Isn't it the plot of Rookie of
the Year? Oh yeah, Where he breaks his arm
so it like heals fast. He throws too fast.
That's right. And then he was like and his arm
breaks and then it like heals weird and so then he throws
super fast he. Throws weirdly, but really fast.
He has like a functional trebuchet.
Yeah, I remember the sound effect that they made for the
sound of his arm. Yeah, it gets all flap.

(18:48):
It was, it was a stretching. It was like a rubber band
stretching sound. Yeah.
Or at least like the first one when they were like showing the
premise that like, it's different.
And that has stuck with me ever since.
Like whenever I see a pitcher pitch, I think of that noise.
Who's a pretty decent pitcher? Who is this guy?
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, you were.
Much better baseball pitcher than a softball pitcher.
Really. He's.
Cruel. Why?

(19:09):
Why do you figure that is just? I don't know.
I think it was just the mechanism of like overhand
pitching is makes more sense like brain to body than softball
pitching. The softball pitching is like
there's, there's like a, a, a stopping point.
Like baseball's more of a like afollow all the way through.
It's like a line rather than like a rotation in the release.

(19:32):
Yeah. Yeah.
I what's fascinating to me aboutsoftball pitching is not only
that they throw it incredibly fast, but also accurately.
Like, that's just wild. Like if you see, if you see,
like, I don't know, a chimpanzeethrow something, It's generally
some sort of overhand throw. So like an overhand throw is
just what hominids like our default way of throwing things,
generally speaking. And so like doing that in

(19:54):
complete reverse. Not to mention, like, like you
said, you know, baseball is moreof a linear thing, whereas the
rotation of a softball thing. So like, if you release just a
little bit late, it's going to go, Oh yeah, early it's going to
go down. Like I was going to say, like
I'm talking my ass here. But like, dude, that's just
wild. Did you ever get Were you
decently good at the softball pitch?
I'd love to. See you.
I wanted to be I wanted to be I said pitching lessons for like 3

(20:17):
summers. I had like a like a pitching
coach because I just really wanted.
I don't know why I feel like it was just because like the
pitcher felt like the most important, you know what I mean?
But finally, my pitching coach was like you, you understand the
fundamentals. It's about practice.
And I, I just don't think that you have the practice in you to

(20:38):
get really good at this because you love playing second base and
you're really good second basemen.
I think you should just focus onthat.
But yeah, I was decent at it. Like the make, like the, the
physics work out. It's more of just then you have
to do it 5 billion times. I would just rather play.
Ingrained it and you got to wireit into your brain.
Yeah, that's the hard part. That's one of the first place it

(21:00):
not the first, but at all. But what I guess one of the the
first not directly school related things that my HD would
show up in. I mean, I said all the time that
ADHD has sort of like units of time when all of our time is
just a little bit shorter. So like one second is like 5
beats where for us where it's like one second for a person
without is like one beat. So for me, like 3 weeks is a

(21:23):
very specific amount of time. So I did a lot of different
sports throughout my childhood, but I never did any of them for
more than three weeks. 3 weeks was always, it was like almost
exactly 3 weeks. I did soccer for a little while.
I quit soccer too. Did you quit soccer?
I. Fucking hated soccer.
I yeah, I don't know why I quit,I think.
There's too much running. I was a fat little kid is part

(21:46):
of it. I was a fat, oddershaped little
kid. I got heavier I guess 6th and
7th grade this morning. That heavier I guess I didn't do
sports then so I. Like softball because like I had
like some weight on me and so I have mass.
It's about power pow. Yeah, I did soccer for like 3
weeks and I remember every time I did a new sport, especially in
elementary school where you got to like name yourselves.

(22:06):
I would I would recommend the fireballs.
We were the maroon fireballs. I've been the orange fireballs.
I've been the red fireballs every crushed it Kids would be
like let's. Be the Penguins.
Or whatever, which, looking backis a fucking sweet name for a
elementary school baseball team.Yeah, fireballs were crushed
every time. But yeah, I would do like 3
weeks. I don't know, like the first
week was like, interesting because it was new.

(22:28):
So I was like, oh, well, oh, howis this going to work?
And then it's like, good job this week.
I'll see you on my da, da, da, da.
And then the next week was like settling in and I was like, OK,
here we are again. I know what the routine is now.
OK, I'm doing it. And then the third week it's
just sort of OK, It's still thisOK, done with soccer now, like

(22:49):
done with it wrestling. I did wrestling for three weeks.
It was all sorts of same shit. I really wanted to wrestle, but
my school wouldn't let me. Really, lady?
That's fucking stupid dude. They also wouldn't let me be on
the football team because I was lady.
That's the most Liz Lemony thingyou've ever was up there.
I really wanted to be the kickerand they were like, no.
And I was like, all right, that's fine.

(23:11):
Which like physiologically, likeI guess I can see an argument
for like they don't want to put you next like getting full hit
by like a £300 like dude, but like kicker dude, why wouldn't
you be able to be like. Because there weren't any girls
locker rooms. Like, that was literally it.
They were like, there's like, even if you join the team, none

(23:31):
of the football stadiums have like a women's locker room area
because it's all boys or boys. They're like, you can change in
like the bathroom. It was just like gender.
And I was like, OK, that's fine.But yeah, I remember the guy who
the guy who coached the footballteam was also the Deacon at the
church. And so like Deacon, I think his
name was like Joe, like Deacon Joe.

(23:52):
Is Deacon the music person? No Deacon is like the like king
of the altar boys. He's like, he's like top.
He's like top Butler. OK, he's like a prefix.
Or something. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And so like he, that was like, I, I can't remember his fucking
name. It doesn't matter.
Like Deacon and be like, he was like, I'm just really sorry.
Like I, I really think it's coolthat like you want to expand

(24:13):
your horizons like that. That's really cool.
But like, you can't. In my head, his name was Duncan
Duncan, the Deacon Duncan. Deacon Duncan it.
Sounds like like an A euphemism for something.
Like I've been watching a lot ofOutlander, so it sounds like a
it sounds like a Scottish lad. Deacon Duncan.

(24:33):
Oh yeah, Duncan, Duncan. Hard turn.
Yeah, I have been thinking a lotabout pathological demand
avoidance lately. Me too, actually.
Really. Yeah.
Why have you been thinking aboutpathological demand avoidance?
I'm not going to tell you you gofirst.
Oh man. Pathological demand avoidance.
I don't know the feeling of not doing something because I feel

(24:54):
like it's what I'm supposed to be doing.
It's like I keep tracing it backto something and then realizing
it didn't start there and tracing it back even further,
and then realizing it didn't start and tracing it back even
further. Can I have an example?
Yeah, To this day, when I read like out of an actual book, this
isn't the case if I'm reading something online.
This isn't the case if I'm reading something that I've
printed out or something. But if I'm reading a book, a

(25:16):
physical book, I have to actively swat away the affirming
voices of my least favorite teachers because I think mine,
it fundamentally stems from a resentment towards authority.
Like, well, who put you in charge?
You know? And I just imagine, like, my
worst teachers being like, oh, look at Eric finally.
He's doing what I fucking told him to do, you know?
And it's like, well, fuck you. Like, I'm not going to do what

(25:37):
you told me to do. Like a teacher who I respected
and lie, like, yeah, I would do with it because I agreed with
them. I see why they're in that
position. But yeah, so when I read, I
still have to go like, no, I'm choosing.
I'm doing this because I want todo this.
You know, I'm not doing this so that my teacher thinks I'm a
good boy or something like that.When I was a kid, I would
occasionally with a very messy house in general, my parents
weren't very, they didn't force like cleanliness a lot.

(26:00):
It wasn't like disgusting, but it wasn't like keep your room
clean or else, you know. So my room often got pretty
dirty. And occasionally I would look at
it and go like, huh, this is my room.
This is the space I spent a lot of time and like, I'm going to,
I'm going to make it nice. I'm going to clean it up.
And occasionally in that moment,I would start doing it and my
mom would go, Eric, would you clean your room?
And I would just go, no, absolutely not.

(26:21):
Like it's just fucking weird. And it's so seemingly like
irrational on on its surface. And I haven't noticed how much
it's affected my life until likethe last like year, the year
plus a little bit. I don't know.
The most striking thing was it was how difficult it was for me
to continue making crafting content because I fucking love

(26:43):
craft. Like I loved it so much.
And also now I get to show a bunch of people, like on paper,
everything about this is awesome.
Like I should love doing this, but once it became something
that I was just sort of expectedto do because it's my job and
it's part of what we do and stuff, there was just this thing
like it just became harder and harder and harder until
eventually just felt fucking impossible, which is weird and
not useful. I don't like it.

(27:04):
That's I don't like it at all. But I don't know.
It's, it's, I never thought, I don't think I have like full on
oppositional defiance disorder or anything, but I do definitely
identify with that. And I think that started early
from being an ADHD kid in schooland not understanding why the
teachers wanted us to do the things that they wanted us to
do. I just knew that I was supposed
to. And if I didn't, then I would be

(27:25):
in trouble. And so I just got really used to
being in trouble, like, until itdidn't bother me anymore being
in trouble. And so it wasn't being in
trouble anymore. It was just where I existed, you
know, when I think that's carried on into my adult life
because I didn't really notice it until reasonably recently.
Yeah, it's been, it's been affecting my life a lot.

(27:46):
It's like, it's, I think it's why I dropped out of college.
Like I would go to class for long enough until it started to
be like, oh, the teacher's expecting me to like show up or
sign into the Moodle or whateverit is.
And then I would fucking self sabotage, fuck myself over.
I don't know. I've just been unpacking it
lately. It's been weird.
I mean like, how do you break that pattern?
I think taking ownership of my own life, the rappy therapy, of

(28:10):
course, but like I mean in in inaction and practice.
I think it's operating under theassumption that like, I'm doing
the things that I'm doing because I've chosen that that's
the way I want to live my life. Other people might agree with
it, you know, like my people might be like, oh, good for you,
You did that objectively good thing.
But ultimately, if the idea is if it all started from wanting
to like not be controlled by other people, then doing the

(28:34):
opposite of what they tell you to do is also being controlled
by those other people. And so the only real like way to
get out of that cycle is to justtake ownership of my own life
and time. If I want to read a book, I'm
gonna and not care about the imagined applause of Misses
Freed or something like that. And then of course, obviously
therapy and like learning about it and stuff.
But I think like the mindset that I think is the antidote to

(28:55):
that, that like therapy and reading up and stuff will
hopefully help me get to is justtaking ownership of my own life
going. This is, I'm not doing these
things for other people and I'm doing it because this is my life
and this is how I want to live it, rather than being measured,
imagining being measured by other people or something like.
That is that why you haven't stopped drinking?

(29:17):
Yeah, probably part of it, yeah.I mean, I also dislike it, but
yeah, probably. That's a big part of it.
I'm proud of you for realizing that I'm packing that.
That's like a big, that feels like a big positive step.
Thanks, I think that's why goingto rehab was not necessarily
like who know, but I genuinely think I would be in a better
position with my drinking now ifI had never gone to rehab.

(29:37):
Really. Yeah.
Because it was, well, what if you were, if you convinced
somebody they're an alcoholic, whether or not they actually
are, I would imagine they would start exhibiting alcoholic
behavior because they believe that they are.
So there's that. And also all these people are
telling me not to do this thing so much.
Like I am in a physical locationwith strict like all solely for

(29:57):
the purpose of. And so actually my, the little
8th grader in my head is like, Oh yeah.
And so when I left, like, my version of, like, taking
ownership of my life was like, fuck you guys, I'm going to do
whatever I want whenever. When really, I think a big part
of it was deliberately trying tojust run away from what they

(30:17):
wanted me to do and not have. Like, I don't know, like, still
even, it's like if I go to a restaurant and I order like, a
Diet Coke instead of a beer or something like that, I get a
pang of my least favorite personfrom rehab who going like, good
for you, you know, like that kind of thing.
And I have to go fuck off. Like, I just wanted to tie Coke

(30:38):
or whatever. But it's always in there.
It's an omnipresent voice. And it's one, it's so
underpresent. Like, I don't really notice it
until you do. And then you're like, holy shit.
Like, that's been everywhere. Yeah.
So. That's that feels really big
bubs, I'm proud of you for. Thanks.
Thanks. I see that in you.
Yeah, Like I do. I see that a lot in you about.

(31:00):
And it's not even like you're like, I like, it's not a myth.
Yeah, it's like I will rationalize not doing it like
I'll. Yeah, you'll rationalize not
doing it. You'll justify it to the end of
time and space. It's like, I see you hear that
voice of like the oh, good job. Like I see that in you.
And it's hard to explain but like that makes so much sense.

(31:23):
Is it just practice? Is it literally just like
practicing being like shut the fuck up?
Or is it acknowledging that the voice is there and acting
anyway? Like what do you think?
I don't know. I mean, I think the concept of
practice is really useful in general.
I I was with my dad the other day.
We were getting dinner and my dad, he's been addicted to
things in his life, but he doesn't like smoke or do drugs

(31:46):
or anything like that anymore. He's never a drinker, but his
like addiction thing now. Not that he's like fully
addicted to it, but you know, the addictive thing in him is
sweets. It's desserts, ice creams,
pastries, that kind of stuff. So much so that he's gotten
neuropathy in his in his one of his feet are just because when
you consistently eat sugar overall, eventually it fucks

(32:09):
with your nerves over a lifetime.
So like literally if he eats a really processed sugary thing,
there's a direct correlation fora certain amount of nerves dying
in his body. So like it's very much so
something he shouldn't do. He's also like 70 so he's like,
if my foot gets 10% more numb over the next 10 years, it's
worth it to eat some ice cream. So it's not like he really
can't, but it's like, you know, he can't just fucking go nuts.

(32:32):
So anyways, we're getting dinnerand we eat this full thing and
we like both note about like fuck, we got two.
We got like 2 apps when we didn't need it.
We were just like excited, so wedidn't finish our shit and we
were just like full. And I go to the bathroom and I
come back and he's looking to the thing He goes, do we so we
should get some dessert. He's like, would you get
dessert? And I was like, umm, like I
don't need dessert. But like, yeah, if we, you know,

(32:52):
got dessert, I would have some. And he goes, huh.
And he goes, I can see his gearsturning because he knows it was
just like, I really don't need to do.
I don't I don't need to get dessert, but he like made it so
he like he's going to he's just like processing like I'm I
shouldn't be doing what I am definitely about to do, which is
a thing that addicts feel constantly like I definitely

(33:13):
shouldn't do this, but I am totally going to fucking do this
for one reason or another. You get really used to that
feeling. Anyways, I said to him like, I
clearly he was looking for like an out.
He was looking for something to get him to not do this because
he wasn't gonna like if Fletcherwas on the dice, he was gonna.
And so I said, Dad, you want to what if he practice not getting
dessert this time and he just. I could see it change.

(33:36):
He goes, yeah, yeah, actually let's yeah, I'm going to
practice not. So nice.
And it's because the concept of practice, it's not like it's not
like you're establishing a new hard rule that you can't fuck.
It's just I'm getting a Rep in, you know, like I am literally
practicing. And I mean, being a classical
music guy, like the concept of practice is something that I
have tossed around my whole life.

(33:57):
Like it's a very, I've hated practice.
I've resented the concept of practice for years at a time,
but I've come back around and and I think the concept of
practicing something, doing something such that you have
done it more just that's it likesuch that you have another time
when you think I've I've done it.
And so whenever I have like a behavior that I want to avoid

(34:17):
for some reason, like I could claim to know why I really don't
fucking don't. But for some reason claiming
that I'm practicing the behaviorjust flips the switch in my head
of like, yeah, OK, yeah, we can get a Rep in real quick.
You know, it makes it like an actively productive thing of
like, if I eat dinner and I'm like, oh, I just want to eat
that entire thing of Ben and Jerry's in the fridge, I can be

(34:38):
like, I'm going to practice eating half of the thing.
Ben and Jerry's, like, just practice it.
You know, like cool, look at that.
My experience is not like your experience.
I want to be clear about that, but like that is exactly how I
feel about food right now. Like with like with everything
that I've been doing, like it was that it was practicing.

(35:00):
It was like it was AI can just practice not finishing.
I can like, just, you know what I mean?
And like, it's weird how I feel like what it is, I feel like it
sets up or no, I feel like it's circumvents the executive
functioning of like all or nothing thinking black and
white, thinking a little bit because it's like, yeah, because

(35:23):
I think about like if I'm going to start exercising now, I have
to exercise every single day forthe rest of my life or I have
failed. I don't lose my streak.
But it's like if I'm just practicing being a more active
person, if I'm just practicing going for a walk every night or
whatever, like immediately I'm like, OK, because there's going
to be some nights where I don't take a walk.

(35:45):
There's going to be some nights when it rains, like, you know
what I mean? And and it doesn't like ruin it
in my brain, it doesn't ruin it for me.
It almost like makes it a positive thing to do rather than
a negative thing to not do. You know, It's not like, you
know, I shouldn't eat the whole thing of ice cream.
And if I do, I'm fucking up rather than that thinking I'm

(36:07):
going to, by not eating the ice cream, I am doing an actively
good thing rather than just not doing a bad thing.
Or vice versa if it's like a behavior that you want to
encourage, like, you know, working out.
Or whatever. No, exactly.
I also think there's an element of exposure therapy to it.
I mean, I know exposure therapy doesn't work for plenty of
things, but I think it works fora lot of things, at least As for
me, where the idea of not doing something or doing something is

(36:31):
terrifying. Like going to gym, it's a great
example. Like if I go to the gym, which I
which just you know, if I go to the gym, I'm scared.
I feel fear, active fear that I'm not going to go to the gym
tomorrow. Me.
Too right? I feel that way too.
When like going right, like it'sweird, like it's, it's like
going to the gym is not a good thing.

(36:53):
It's the beginning of something I'm about to fuck up.
Yes, you know, yes. That is exactly what happens to
me. Right.
And so I'm practicing you're you're showing yourself like,
look, I can just go and I'd haveto, you know, be able to hold a
big thing or something, you know, you're exposing yourself
to a behavior such to make it not so mysterious and whatever,
you know. Yeah, I feel like I took the
window of. Yourself.

(37:14):
That's so crazy because that's exactly how I feel too.
And I'm like, well, I'm going tofucking stop going to the gym at
some. Point, God damn it, fuck it all
up. Why start?
Yeah, I mean, I think, I think we all develop our own realities
in a way. And I don't mean that in like a
reality subjective thing. It's not.

(37:35):
But have you ever gotten an e-mail or a text or a phone call
that you didn't pick up and you didn't respond immediately?
And so you didn't respond for long enough now where you think
it's like been long enough for like it's weird to respond and
you have to be like, I'm so sorry.
On the podcast it's called SorryI Missed This now that I think
of it. Boasted truly famous people,

(37:57):
like truly famous, well known people.
I've been like, oh, I should think of like something classy
and cool to say. And then I just forgot for like
6 months and I was just like, yeah, it becomes terrifying.
And now I'm like, I can't do youknow, there's a fuck.
I feel terrible. I can't remember his name.
Brendan. His name is Brendan.
He has this theory, but the wallof awful that like the longer

(38:21):
you put off the task, the biggerthe wall gets.
So like there's there's a point where you can like step over the
wall, You can jump over the wall, you can climb over the
wall. But at some point the wall gets
so big that now you have to spend all this time and energy
like knocking the actual wall down to get to the task that you
were doing. So the idea is to like spend
like don't let the task wall itself off like the wall of

(38:44):
awful. And I think that's fucking
brilliant. That is fucking.
Brilliant. I like that a lot.
It's like it's, it's actively fortifying and it's like if you
do it early, it's going to be, you're going to catch it off
guard. You know it's going to be.
Fine. But yeah, I know it's and yeah,
that but that with the practicing like I'm going to
practice responding to the. E-mail.
That's interesting. Well, I think like, so if you
don't respond to the e-mail for too long, whatever, whatever too

(39:07):
long is in whatever context you're in, like long enough now
where it's like a thing in your brain, you start building
stories about how mad they are or about how no possible thing I
could say could alleviate the shittiest or the shittiness that
I have bestowed upon this personby not responding, you start to
develop a fantasy, something that's not necessarily reality.

(39:27):
Thought loops, thought loops exactly start building these
false narratives. I think in my, my mom once said
she calls them the tapes we play.
I think there was like a pop psychology thing in like the 80s
or something. Whereas like the tapes, the
things we tell ourselves and we tell themselves ourselves those
things all the time until eventually we just assume that
that's reality because that's our brain is just interpreting

(39:48):
reality as it comes in. And so I think the concept of
practice resets that loop of like.
Well, even practice stopping theloop too.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, because that'sthat's one of my things like the
the fucking obsessive thoughts are are a lot of times that that
like, oh, this person is mad at me, they hate me, whatever.
And so like there's, there's theactive practicing of like that

(40:08):
could be true, but more than likely if I send them an e-mail
or whatever, you know, like, andyou can sort of.
Break the loop, break the cycle,if you will.
And that is really helpful because then that for me is
sometimes what gets me into the ability to even practice.
Like I'm not going to send the e-mail until I like break the

(40:30):
thought loop of like, and they're never going to speak to
me and they think I'm an assholeand they whatever.
And I'm like, or we could practice just being like maybe
everything is OK. It starts literally practicing
the thought. Yeah.
Loop stopping before I can even get to the action.
Yeah, and you got to do it manually first.
You've got to actively recognize.
It always have to do it manually.
Yeah, like it doesn't like. Yeah.

(40:51):
You know, like at this point, sometimes the, the, I think like
the manual cranks on faster, butlike everything, all of the
things that I do are manual and I feel like that's, that's such
an ADHD experience too. Oh yeah, absolutely.
Is like it is manual to decide like OK, I have to feed myself,
I have to make coffee, I have tobrush my teeth and take the dog
out. Like where did I put the leash

(41:12):
last night? Like every single thing we do is
so manual. Then there's like the thought
monologue over it. That can be that what I feel
like we got really far away fromPDA but.
No, no, no. That's the 8080 podcast.
What? What?
No, Absolutely. I I, it's you're sort of

(41:35):
assembling when you, when you practice, when, when I think of
practicing something, it's, I think of it as adding to a data
set of, for example, if I don't do the dishes for a while and I
really fucking put it off 1, it actually is getting worse
because they're getting more dishes.
But let's say for the sake of argument, there's a static
amount of dishes in the dish in the thing and they're not like
MO getting moldy. So let's just say, in fact,

(41:56):
dishes is probably not a good, good example.
Folding my clothes, let's say, or putting away my clothes.
Not necessarily. I don't fold my clothes, but
putting away my clothes after they've gone got into laundered
Every time I do that. Every time.
I am fascinated by how surprisingly easy it was.
It was 4 minutes. Yeah, it's incredible every
time. And if I don't like there have
been months of my life where I don't fold my laundry, I just

(42:19):
leave it in the big ass fucking pile and it the clean clothes
mixed with The Dirty clothes andI go, fuck, I'm just going to
wash all of them because I don'tknow what's clean or what's
dirty. And I do that and I do that for
like several cycles until eventually the, the idea of
cutting away my clothes just feels laughably impossible
because I've built the fantasy in my head of like, if I haven't
been doing it for this long, my brain will rationalize it as it

(42:40):
must be difficult. That's why I'm avoiding it
because it must be difficult. I'm not just a rational, surely
it must be a monumentally difficult task.
Otherwise I would have just doneit.
So if I were to then break that cycle and then just do it once,
I'm now rooted in reality and I go, oh, that took 17 minutes.
And I that was even one full episode of ATV show.
And now it's done. Like it's resetting that thing,

(43:01):
remembering not necessarily thatit's easy or hard, but
remembering how easy or hard it actually is rather than what we
tell ourselves it is. And that goes from everything
for like chores to responding toemails to like, I don't know,
getting out of an addiction, like just remembering, oh, I can
have a really good time just watching TV and, you know,

(43:21):
tinkering around with stuff. I don't have to like, booze it
up the whole time or something like that.
Because if it goes, if I go longenough without doing that, then
it just starts to seem impossible because I just assume
it's impossible. Otherwise I would be doing it.
But having reps in and going, oh, I, yeah, I can totally do
that. That's fine.
I don't know, just the concept of practice and the concept of
breaking those loops and trying to root, trying to have an

(43:43):
accurate understanding of how difficult or easy things are
rather than just assuming they're really difficult all the
time, which is where my rain always goes.
It just assumes impossibility. I've been playing around with
systems that make it easier, like the if you do the 10 second
system at the end of the day, then you don't have to do the

(44:06):
major overhaul in like 2 weeks. And it has been shocking to me
how like I realize this isn't like revelatory, you know what I
mean? Like wow, I've invented
something like. Revelatory to you?
Doing the chores, but like, you know what I mean?
It's like, so like now I make a point of like, like closing
duties are like I wipe down the kitchen counter.

(44:28):
I like, I'll clean out the bathroom sink like just, I'm
brushing my teeth one night, like I'll just do it and then it
doesn't get disgusting. And then I'm not like, Oh, I
don't want to do it because it'sgross.
And like, and so it's, it's likethose really tiny slow moments
that have been helping me, especially in terms of like
trying to like get organized andstay organized and declutter and
like all of that stuff. And so I don't know, like it's,

(44:50):
it's, it's so annoying to me because yeah, like I still
haven't done the dishes. And it's for the sole reason of
like, they've been sitting therefor so long.
I'm like couldn't possibly do them.
It must be hard. It must be hard.
Well, the dishwasher doesn't getthe dishes fucking clean is the
problem. So all of the dishes that I've
run through the dishwasher four times are still dirty.

(45:12):
So like, and I'm like, well, I have to like unload the
dishwasher, but like it's just not just like I can't do it.
My wall. Box.
It's been helping me a bit lately.
What? Stardew motherfucking Valley,
baby. All right, sell it to me.
Love Stardew Valley. Well, Stardew Valley is a game
where you have a little farm andyou plant crops and you get
animals that produce like milk or eggs or whatever, I feel.

(45:32):
Like I played it twice on streamand I yeah.
I remember. Yeah, you started a couple
times, But the game fundamentally has a lot of
chores. Like you have to water your
crops until you get sprinklers, but you have to water your
crops. You have to go milk the cows and
make sure they have hay. You have to go collect the
chicken's eggs and make sure they have hay.
Animals also like to be pets. There's like.

(45:52):
I will volunteer to do all your petting chores.
We should. Definitely start playing, start
a starting valley. Well, it's really fun.
But there's also like, you know,hardwood is a resource that you
get 8 Max a day. There's like a tree that
responds that you can go to cut it down and responds the next
day. So there's at any given day,
there's like 4 things that you really should do because your

(46:14):
chickens get mad and they start producing worse eggs and
whatever. So like you have a set of chores
that you do every day. And when I first started playing
Stardy Valley, I would just kindof do them whenever, you know,
like I would just kind of wake up and like, Oh my God, I need
wood. I'm gonna get some wood.
Oh, that's right. I have to feed the whatever.
And for the first, like it's a yearly game.
So there's like spring, summer, fall, winter, like so those

(46:36):
years, so for the first like several seasons, I was just kind
of like flapping around. And then once I was like, oh,
you know what? I'm just going to every day when
I wake up in Stardy Valley, I'm just going to wake up.
I'm going to go to chickens, cows, plants, hardwood, and then
whatever the fuck else I'm goingto do for this.
So I have that routine and then whatever else is my goal for
that day. Maybe I'm trying to catch

(46:57):
specific fish or whatever. And I started doing that and
Stardew Valley became a much less stressful experience
because I wouldn't wake up and go, fuck, I forgot to feed the
whatever, you know, because I know I just have this sequence
that I do in the morning and it's just, have I done that
sequence or have I not done thatsequence?
Rather than have I fed the chickens, have I milked the
cows? Have I fed the cows?

(47:18):
Have I collected the eggs? Have I, it's just one set thing,
which is something that a lot ofpeople know since the age of
like 5. But for us ADHD people, we have
to realize that and then forget it and then realize that again
and then forget it and then realize that again.
And that's just kind of the way it is.
But I, I love it. I just one of my favorite things
about goddamn video games is allows you to play with those

(47:39):
ideas and re remember those ideas in a safe, super low
stakes environment. We're like, if I don't feed the
chickens one day, it's fine, butit does ping me and go, hey,
should have done that. Whereas like in real life, if
you don't do with some things you really fucking got to do and
there's consequences. But I actively enjoy Stardew
Valley more now because I know once it takes me about all I
finished those little chores andalmost exactly 11:00 PM in or

(48:02):
11:00 AM in game every day, which gives me, you know, 13 in
game hours to do the other stuffand I do not have to think about
those things anymore. So anyways, I just I I've
realized the value of routines again through Stardew Valley.
Have you created a Stardew Valley routine for like your IRL

(48:23):
morning? A little, a little bit.
I'm getting there. I've started doing the dishes
every night when I go to bed. I just kind of like dishes, you
know, and then laundry on it would be Saturdays and yeah,
it's been really helpful. And then morning times, not so

(48:46):
much. However, I have started taking
my meds exactly at 9, whether ornot I actually get up at 9:00.
Not like I can wake up, take them and go back to sleep, but
like 9. And a lot of the time I'll end
up like waking up and then I'll just start thinking.
About stuff for you, I also lovethat for me, yeah.
And right now, as I am telling this to you and you said, I love

(49:08):
that for you, my fucking PDA went off and I went go fuck
yourself. I mean, I didn't actually think
go fuck yourself, but like my, Iwas just was like, oh shit, I'm
going to stop doing that becauseyou just praised me for doing
that. And like right then, like it was
the tiniest little thing. It wasn't like a whole thought,
but I felt it for a second whereI was like, fuck, if you say the
wrong thing right now, you know,good for you.

(49:30):
I don't fucking know. And by wrong, I mean you're
fine. You don't, you don't have to.
What if you said it's fine, but I, I felt that I for a for a
second, just that I was like, ohshit.
Interesting. Like, wow, I'm less likely to do
that routine because I mean, I'mnot because I'm recognizing it
and I'm going to actively not dothat, but I felt it for a
second. But also what is like a good way
to support you? Like fuck you you piece of shit

(49:51):
I hate you for. Doing Don't you dare brush your
teeth every night like because. That's the thing.
It's like, but the like, it goesthe opposite way too, where it's
like, you know that you're beingcondescended to.
Yeah. Oh yeah.
I mean, something that is sort of, it's a sort of a Band-Aid
solution. It doesn't help with the actual
like paradigm itself and fixing it, but to do things in a way to
do those quote UN quote productive things in a way that

(50:13):
is you still wouldn't be praisedfor.
What do you mean? I'm trying to think of some
analogies that I feel comfortable talking about on the
podcast. Brushing your teeth, let's say.
Snacking, like binging. I, I, I have a really, I, I, I
eat very scarcely throughout theday just because if I eat like a

(50:33):
whole meal, I just always get tired of her.
So I like, I'll snack, you know,but then at the end of the day
when I'm like, I'm talking like,I should probably start getting
ready for bed. Actually, I'm going to go eat a
bunch of shit that I shouldn't eat, which, you know, health
aside, like that's money. Like I shouldn't eat all my
fucking groceries at 11:00 PM every day, you know, and so, but

(50:57):
also like, oh, look at then. And then I went to brush my
teeth and I didn't do the thing.Now that PDA is going off of
like, oh, that's cute. Like that's, I don't know, I'm
like, it's new to me. So I don't really know how to
describe it. But my PDA starts going off of
like if I do responsible things and eat responsibly and go to
bed at the same time, I start feeling that like, whatever, who
cares? You know what, the 8th grader in

(51:18):
my head starts going off. So I got a bunch of celery, just
a shit ton of celery. It's not super expensive, shit
ton of celery. And when that urge goes off, I
eat a monumental amount of celery.
Frankly, the whole point is an ill advised amount of celery
because like, I'm not doing that.
I'm not doing a thing. But, you know, Miss Freed from

(51:39):
3rd grade, who I just hated doing what she said.
She wouldn't be like, good for you.
She'd be like, dude, you're eating a lot of fucking celery.
Like you sure. Like, you could, you know,
spread that out throughout the week and fuck you, Miss Freed.
Like, I wanna eat all the goddamn celery I want so I can
do a good thing, but still do itin like, kind of a fuck you way.
You know, cutting back on drinking is another thing.

(52:00):
Like switching to Diet Coke or seltzer water or whatever it is.
Drink as much of it. Drink so much of it that the
people you think would praise you for, like, cutting back on
your drinking would be worried about you drinking that much
seltzer water as much as they would be worried about you
drinking. It's so fucking stupid.
But God damn it, it works for that.
It really works for PDA. Just like, you know what?

(52:22):
Like, yeah, I'm gonna brush my teeth, but I'm gonna brush my
teeth like while I'm taking a shit or something, or like in
the shower or like I'm going to brush my teeth in the fucking
kitchen sink. You know, it just, you know,
because that's weird and you're like, good for you for why the
fuck are you doing? It's it just feels like you're
reclaiming it somehow. I don't know why but it works.
I I enjoy that very much, but the question that I was asking

(52:45):
is that if there is like a partner who is listening to this
podcast and is like, Hey, this sounds so familiar, but I want
to be able to tell, you know, mypartner.
How do you support it? I'm proud of you.
Or like, I think that's really cool that you're doing that or
whatever. Like what is a good way to be
like, dude, that's actually awesome because not only like I

(53:08):
genuinely appreciate that because like when you don't take
your meds and we're trying to like have a productive day, it
affects me and it affects my life.
And so like I do have this element of like, holy shit,
that's awesome. Good job on that.
Because then I know that my day is also going to be easier,
selfishly. You know, yeah, like you, you
have incentive for those things to happen as well.

(53:29):
So naturally you would want to support them.
Yeah, also, I mean out of compassion, I'm sure.
I mean, like, I'm proud of you, but I'm also like, cool, now
that I don't know if. You, I mean, it's got to be
different for each person. You probably don't want them to.
Once they know that that's what you're doing, it'll, it might
like translate in their head to like, oh, what they really want
to say is good for you. The paradox of what Makes You

(53:50):
Beautiful is not knowing that you're beautiful.
But I'm writing you a song to tell you that you're beautiful,
and now you know that you're beautiful.
And so therefore are You Beautiful anymore because you
don't know you're beautiful. Third base.
That doesn't matter. It's just the telly.
No. Is it a song?
Eddie, it's like a Joe Jonathan had nobody else, but it's like,
but like, that's what Makes You Beautiful.

(54:11):
You don't know you're beautiful.That's what Makes You Beautiful.
I don't like that. I want a person to think they're
beautiful. They exist in this like weird
Schrodinger's box. Yeah, catch 22.
Of. But yeah, so how do you?
Yeah, I think it's. To somebody who's like trying to
do the thing. Yeah, I mean full, I think it's
fully an individual thing. So like, I know what I would

(54:31):
want. This may or may not be what
about what what whatever person you're, whatever relevant person
in your life this applies to would want.
But for me, it's a lot about attention, just not drawing
attention to it. So just being like, if I'm doing
it, but then you're like, like, hey, I brush my teeth this
morning or whatever, like, Oh, Igot to like do my taxes about

(54:51):
just all right, done, you know, like affirm it, but don't be
like, hey, dude, fucking nice. You know, like just don't draw
attention, you know? So just sort of like a subtle
like, oh, cool, right on, you know.
Can I say Schrodinger's fist bump?
And then fist bump me, yeah. Because I know.
I think that's funny, but personally for me, no, I think I

(55:13):
would respect that. I'm trying to I'm genuinely
trying to listen to that voice and just be like, what makes
that little fucking rebel 8th grader kid and like, you know, I
don't know, like a teacher beinglike, Hey, bro, good job, like
fuck you, Like what am I doing? So I don't know.
I mean, it's it's a weird what if I said on the corner?
Of the desk with like like a suit jacket but it was like AT

(55:34):
shirt. Underneath.
Yeah, like a band T-shirt it. Was like, you kids don't
understand real poetry. Then you pull up a chair really
loudly and sit on it backwards. Sit on it backwards.
Hey kids, you can call me Scott.You can.
Call me Scott. I don't care.
Talk about Billy Shakes. Oh.
Yeah, that's so bad ass shit. That's right, I swear.

(55:54):
No, but that's that's, that's aninsanely good question.
I don't know the answer to. I'm still sort of exploring it,
but I do know that it's sort of,I almost want it to be
completely ignored. But I also know that you're
trying to fulfill your need to actively support that behavior,
not just out of like compassion,but like you actively want to
support that behavior because itmakes your life easier too.
So I don't know, it's a really difficult question.

(56:17):
I know that I don't like a lot of attention drawn to it.
Like if, if there's like a lot like, oh, Eric's doing well,
that's a thing now, then it feels like, wow, is it really
that notable when I'm doing well, like, or I don't fucking
know. So I think it's like a subtler
thing. Well, whatever you do, don't go
to therapy and just think about it and work on it a little bit
and then. Well, fuck you, dude.
What you need? Well, you can't show me what to

(56:38):
do. No, I, I just, we were recording
for a while, but like, yeah, PDA, pathological demand
avoidant behavior, which I've never been diagnosed with
anything like, so I don't want, but like, I get it.
And I, it's just fucking weird. It's just really weird because

(57:00):
it's, it makes things seem so fragile and so like my worldview
is so fragile, like whatever I'mdoing could be so easily changed
by another person, in this case through their approval.
But like you know if if. It's just, it's wild to me that
the approval is the bad thing, like two different kinds of
people. Because like, that's all I want.

(57:21):
All I want is like the like, yes, you're doing a good job and
like for you that yes, you're doing a good job is the thing
that kills it. Yeah.
And it's. So interesting.
That's weird. Also this is a whole other weird
can of worms that I've been figuring out.
The all of that. All of that is the exact fucking
opposite. As soon as I show up to work, if
I show up to work in a kitchen or work in a shop, when I go go

(57:44):
to it or on set. Like if I have a time and place
and I go to location. I want to be the bestest good
boy. Like I want to.
I don't even. I don't care if my boss is an
asshole, my way of sticking it to them is doing everything they
say exceptionally fucking well just because fuck you.
I know you want to yell at me but you can't because I fucking
crush that. Like it's my way of saying fuck

(58:05):
you. So it's weird.
It's like the opposite of a thing.
So I'm wondering if I can take that and apply it and like
switch it and flip it so that like my way of sticking it to
those Jackass teachers that I, you know, that told me I
couldn't or whatever. I was an ADHD kid.
School was hard for me, but like, so my way of sticking to
them was by doing really, reallywell.
That'll be cool, you know, but Idon't know, I'm still, I'm

(58:27):
exploring it. It's, I really feel like I'm,
you know, I'm exploring my own brain and you know, so I don't
know, it's a very new territory for me to actively think about.
It's not new territory and that it's new behavior, but it's new
for me to like, have noticed, and actively think about as I go
about my day. Yeah, I feel like sometimes
those I don't I had not the samething.

(58:49):
But sometimes those like big realizations, it's weird how
fast like you click like one thing in and then everything
else like falls into place. Like I've had like 4 major major
major like therapy breakthroughsin the past like 2 weeks and
it's just because I was like oh and then I was like.
Oh oh. Like all the way down the line

(59:12):
until like. I wonder if that is something
that might be happening to you. Yeah, Well, I.
Think the most important momentsin therapy for me, whether
that's like actual therapy or just like advice from a friend,
have been like one or two sentences that just totally
shift the way that I think aboutthings.
Like 1 was the Eleanor Rooseveltquote.

(59:32):
You wouldn't care as much about what people thought of you if
you realized how seldom they do.Like that just clicked so much.
It's like, wait a minute, I'm, Ithink I heard that when I was
like in 8th grade, 7th or 8th grade and everything.
Like, oh shit, I'm constantly thinking about whether or not I
seem weird and whether or not I'm awkward or whether or not
I'm, I'm assuming everybody is also thinking about whether or
not I, Eric, am awkward. And then I realize, like, wait a

(59:55):
minute, it's reasonable to believe that if I think that way
that other people also think that way.
Like I have, I have exactly one example of how a human brain
works on the inside and it's mine.
And my data set of one says thatother people are likely also
thinking that thing. And not about me.
Like they're worried about whatever the fuck they're
worried about. Like they're just not, it's not

(01:00:15):
about their approval or just they're just not thinking about
you, you know? Like it's they're just not
thinking about you like that kick, you know?
Do you know what it was for me? This is very like, this is very
recent, but I heard the story. Have I told you about the Keanu
Reeves insurance thing? OK, so Keanu Reeves was telling
the story about how whenever he has stuff that he like doesn't

(01:00:38):
want to do or he's like worried about it, he'll like play a
character like that's his MO character.
And so like a tree fell in his house or something, right?
And so he had to deal with like insurance.
And it was like a, no, I actual Keanu Reeves can't have like my
personal assistant do this for me.
So he had to be like on the phone.
And so he was like, so and he was like, I was really nervous.

(01:01:00):
I'm not good at insurance, like whatever.
So I became a character whose favorite thing in the entire
world is knowing about insurance.
And he apparently, like, spent three days, like, building this
character and, like, read through his insurance policy,
like, did all of this research. On.
Like came to the phone call withlike ready, had like notes,

(01:01:20):
whatever. And the guy on the phone was
like, you're amazing at this. And like it worked.
And so I heard that story and I was at like a like a party thing
and I was like, I'm super socially awkward and I don't
really want to be here and I don't like this and I'm
uncomfortable. And I was like, what if I was a

(01:01:42):
character who fucking loved parties and who fucking loved
meeting people? And it, that shit worked.
That shit worked better than like years of therapy.
I was just like, here we go. So like now I have like, and I
realized like I do that all the time.

(01:02:02):
Like I like, I think I've, I like, I feel like I broke my
mask because like I used to be that person.
Like I used to be the person I could go on the party.
I was super confident, whatever.But I feel like I did so much
like and I'm not, I feel like now I'm saying like mask up
kids. But like for me, I just like
forgot how to be that. I forgot how to be confident.

(01:02:22):
I forgot how to be like Katie fucking Osbourne at a party.
And so like stepping into this like fake character version, I
was like, oh, right. Like I can do this.
Like I'm I'm totally able to do this.
I can do this by myself. I'm going to be OK, whatever.
And it was great and it was amazing and I had a great time.

(01:02:44):
And then I left and I was like, I'm tired, like, you know, And
that then I was just. But it was done.
Like the show was over. I went home, pet Bailey and ate
a muffin. Jeez, that's all it's it's
almost seems sort of similar to the practice thing where you're
giving yourself permission to doit for just this duration.
Like, I don't have to actually get interested in insurance, but
I could play a character that's interested in insurance for the

(01:03:05):
amount of time is necessary for me to make that fucking phone
call, you know? Exactly.
Like, and so like, I'm supposed to do a red carpet on brilliant.
And I'm super scared. And so you know who I'm going to
be? A fucking version of myself who
is confident and capable on red carpets because like, I deserve
to be here. And I'm like, hot as fuck.
Like, you know what I mean? Yeah.
There's a you. Have you seen the Season 2 of

(01:03:26):
The Rehearsal? Yes.
Yeah, there's that. For those of you who haven't
seen anyone spoiled it, watched Season 2 of The Rehearsal.
It's been incredible, but there's AI won't spoil the whole
thing, but there's a much. Less sociopathic than season.
One significantly less sociopathic.
I still have available I season 2 was great.
I couldn't do. Season 2, yeah, there's yeah, I
know what you mean. But there's a there's a scene in

(01:03:49):
season 2 where he's basically just how do I put this?
I mean, the entire show is so weird and difficult to explain,
but basically there's a guy who has expressed to Nathan that,
like, he really wants to meet somebody he's really interested
in dating, but he's just not confident.
Like, he just doesn't feel like he's a guy who can do that.

(01:04:11):
And he's just a super sweet guy,like a really nice guy.
And so Nathan is trying to figure out all these weird ways
of seeing how he can get this guy to feel more confident.
So he does a couple silly thingswhere he has, I think, 20 people
go on a date with him. So he's not going on a date with
this woman, but there's 20 people standing behind him that
just repeat everything he says as he says it.

(01:04:32):
He's like, I wonder if it's likea pack mentality.
If he had people who were actively and it did kind of work
a little bit. He was much worse, you know,
because he knew these people were literally behind him.
But so anyways, the premise I'm I'm plumbing a little bit here,
but there's this moment where the guy is on the couch with
this woman after like a date andthey're sitting there, but it's
like a soundstage couch. But they're just they went on an

(01:04:54):
actual date and they're now they're sitting there and
they're chatting, they're talking.
And she does like the triangle thing, you know, she looks at
one eye, then the other than themouth and she and she clearly
really wants to kiss it. You can see on his face him like
almost ask her a couple times like, can I kiss you?
And she's like leaning it. She clearly really wants him to
kiss her and he doesn't. And he like walks in and goes

(01:05:15):
say goodbye. And that's the whole thing.
Oh, so he goes to talk to Nathanafterwards and he just says, I
just couldn't do it. I really wanted to.
And they talked to her and she'slike, of course, I really wanted
him to kiss me. I'm like, gosh.
So they both wanted it to happen, but neither of them have
the whatever. The whole idea is that the
reason the guy is the focus is because he's a pilot, which if
you watch the second season, you'll understand why that's
important. So Nathan Fielder goes ha, and

(01:05:38):
he fucks off for the day. He comes back and they do the
same thing. They go on the day they come
back, but before they do that, he briefs the guy and he says,
hey, for this day, it's going tobe just like yesterday.
But this time you're not you. You're playing the character.
This character is very much likeyou in pretty much every way.
He's he's almost exactly like you.

(01:05:59):
He's a pilot. He looks just like you.
He's he's exactly you in every way except for one key
difference where this character that you'll be playing always
asks a woman if he can kiss her,if he wants to ask if he can
kiss her. That's the only difference.
But you're playing a character. You're not you this whole time.
The guy that you're playing actsjust like you.
He does he says whatever you would say so you can just beat

(01:06:20):
yourself up. But as the character, he will
always ask if he feels the urge he wants to get somebody.
He will say, hey, can I kiss you?
And so the whole thing plays through.
It's just like before. They have a great time because
they really like each other. They sit back on the couch, they
chat about whatever. And the moment comes again and
you see, like, where she's looking at him and he and he's
still nervous. You know, you can see him kind

(01:06:41):
of like you can. It's really cute.
He sort of like, jerks his head,like, clearly he tries three
times to, you know, like jumpingoff of a diving board or
something. And then he goes, can I kiss
you? And she goes, yeah.
And they, they have a little kiss and it's really nice and
it's sweet. And then it ends.
And then afterwards he talks to Nathan and he's like, wow, so

(01:07:02):
you did a great job. Like, how did it feel?
And he goes, that was a really fun character to play.
I really liked that character. Like, and he didn't like, I
mean, he sure, he realized on some level that that was like a
method of getting him to be more.
But for some reason, the idea that he was playing a character
gives him like this excuse to behave in a way that normally he
wouldn't feel super comfortable doing.
And it was repeatable. Like it works.

(01:07:24):
The whole idea was that they're trying to make pilots
communicate more with each otherabout polite stuff.
It's an awesome fucking show. You should watch it.
But either way, that is to say that like that idea of I'm I
don't have to be that thing. I'm just going to play a
character that is that thing forthe duration that is useful to
me within reason. Obviously don't, but I mean, I
don't know. I just think it's a fascinating
process and it worked on on fucking the rehearsal like

(01:07:48):
verifiably, like that's data. I don't know.
I was a long winded way of saying that's cool and I agree.
Also, it was like a halfway through, I was like, yeah, what
happened on this pocket on this show?
And I was like, I watched the show.
I don't know why I like that. And the whole time I was just
like, I'll let him tell it. And then I was like, you could
just at any point, Kate, you could speak up like, you've seen
this show. I don't know why I panicked.

(01:08:09):
And it was like, Eric can just take that one.
But it was really funny. I was just like, should I say
something? Should I be like, oh, yeah.
And then this thing happened. I got really scared and I was
like, I'm going to be a character who just lets Eric
explain the plot of ATV show that I've seen.
It's fine for you, dear listener, in case you weren't
depressed. Hey, do you want to not be
recording podcasts? Yeah, let's run.
We've got way over. Yeah, Hi.

(01:08:30):
Thanks for listening everybody. Thanks for listening.
Thanks for being here. A couple of reminders.
One, our book is available for pre-order wherever you enjoy
purchasing your books. Chrome so you can do that.
It's called the ADHD field guidefor adults.
We just got the final illustrations back today and
they are fucking. I really like them.
I really like them. I'm very excited about that.

(01:08:51):
Put it Lincoln description. Lincoln.
Description show notes show notes I guess.
Just go to kazers.com, there's over there too.
Anything else? Oh, I'm going.
To be a Gen. Con got two shows and a panel,
so check that out, yeah. Huh.
That's all. That's that's that's it for me.

(01:09:12):
Cool. Hey everybody.
Thanks for remember to drink some water.
Remember to take him off fuckingmeds.
Remember to eat his neck. Remember to pet a dog.
Remember to be cotton to yourself.
Unless you're allergic to them, then just like pretend to pet a
dog. Like in your head, you know, And

(01:09:33):
remember that we love you. I was going to make another joke
at the end, but I feel like, I feel like after the whole dog
bit, you know, we've kind of been a hat on a hat.
I was going to say the Alamo or the Titans.
But I've also done this bit, I guess a million times.
I don't. Remember this?
Yeah, I remember. I did it all.
It was all one. Episode 8th of.
November you did not remember the.

(01:10:24):
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