May 22, 2024 • 42 mins
Ila Edgar is the founder of Big Change Inc, a consulting organization that supports organizations, leaders, and teams in building stronger trust in pursuit of achieving amazing things together, and co-host of a podcast dedicated to helping people intentionally design trust in their relationships, Trust on Purpose.
Listen as Ila talks about her personal journey of trust, navigating a landscape devoid of frameworks and reference points that often led to painful lessons, to her discovery of a trust framework that provides structure to the nebulous concept of trust. With it came the power to recognize trust as a choice and lessons in intentionally designing, cultivating, evaluating, and discerning trust - using the domains of competency, sincerity, reliability, and care - considerations sorely lacking in many organizations today.
Ila shares her firsthand experiences within the healthcare system, highlighting the impact of trust - and its absence - on both individuals and institutions. She discusses the significance of trust extending beyond personal relationships, permeating into professional spheres like healthcare, and how a lack of trust can breed skepticism and hinder progress, yet intentional trust-building can transform organizational dynamics.
Join Ila and Leah as they offer insights into the complexity of humanity and trust, its construction, erosion, and potential for renewal. This conversation invites listeners to reflect on their own relationships—with themselves, their colleagues, and the systems they inhabit—prompting a deeper exploration of trust in all its complexity.
If you would like to connect with Ila directly or request the “Do Over” cards she talks about, find her here.
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Episode Transcript
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Music.
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Welcome to Central Line, Leadership in Healthcare, the show that shares stories,
experiences, and advice from notable and innovative leaders in healthcare.
Leading in healthcare is incredibly challenging, so if you are looking to learn
firsthand from nurses, physicians, administrators, and other healthcare professionals
in leadership and management roles, this is the podcast for you.
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Hosted by Leah Wuchek, leadership development expert, executive coach,
healthcare professional, and president and co-founder of Tall Trees Leadership.
We talk with today's successful healthcare leaders on how they get to where
they are, lessons learned along
the way, and what it takes to thrive as a successful leader in healthcare.
(00:52):
Let's get started with your host, Leah Wuchick.
Ila Edgar believes wholeheartedly that trust is the foundation of every relationship,
even the one we have with ourselves.
She worked in various leadership roles, companies, and industries before starting Big Change Inc.,
a practice she founded through which she partners with leaders and teams to
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unearth what needs attention in their relationships to pursue leader and team effectiveness.
Sometimes it's a tweak, and sometimes it's deeper. It's always important work.
She is known for getting to the heart of what matters and helping clients develop
a plan to uncover the confidence and skills to become an inspired and inspiring leader.
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Ila's questions, insights, and advice about relationship and trust can be heard
on her twice-monthly podcast called Trust on Purpose, which she co-hosts with Charles Feldman.
Every episode delves into how relationships can either thrive or die on the
basis of trust, and offers real discussion and practical advice on how to build,
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maintain, and rebuild trust in all of our important relationships.
Ila is a certified Trust at Work facilitator, certified Dare to Lead facilitator,
executive leadership coach, adjunct instructor with SAIT, and is frequently
called upon as a workshop facilitator, presenter, and conference speaker.
Ila can often be heard saying, learning to become intentional about the kind
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of leader you want to be is tough and it is work,
but it's incredibly rewarding for you and for those you lead and don't think
for a second that it's about becoming perfect it's entirely about being real.
Music.
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Good morning, Ila. How are you today? I'm doing well. How are you today, Leah?
I'm very good. I am so excited to have you. We have been friends now for several
years, and we met, oh gosh, many years ago through our coaching connections.
And I know you are an expert on many things, and trust is one of them.
(03:11):
So I'm hoping we can pick your brain a little bit about trust today?
I would love that. It's one of my most favorite topics. Sounds good.
Well, let's start off with you and what you do right now.
Ah, whoa, that's a big question. You didn't prep me for that one. No, I know, right?
(03:31):
What do I do? What do I do? I have a few juicy things that I'm working on right now.
And I think stepping back for a second, I did come into this entrepreneurial
life and business thinking that I would be a coach, a one-on-one coach,
and that I would support leaders and navigating this life of leadership.
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My business has morphed and I actually do very little one-on-one coaching anymore.
What I find so juicy, so rewarding, sometimes hard as heck, is team coaching
and working with an intact unit.
And so that could be from a trust perspective. It can be from we're not getting
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the results we need perspective.
It can be we've got a huge challenge in front of us or a huge opportunity in
front of us. And we feel like we need support to get there.
So that would be probably 60% of my work. Yeah.
I also am very blessed and fortunate to be an adjunct instructor at SAIT.
So I'm in the classroom probably a couple times a month teaching leader as coach,
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trust and psychological safety, sometimes emotional intelligence.
You know, those real juicy topics that are not, you know, here's an Excel spreadsheet
and here's how you navigate pivot tables.
That's not my thing. Right. Yeah.
And then, you know, there's a really interesting one coming.
There's an organization I've been working with around
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trust for a couple of years and they want to
figure out how to operationalize trust across their
entire business which is based
in US and Canada number of locations and everything from c-suite to boots on
the ground so that is like that's exciting that's huge right I know yeah it's
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fun I'm so I'm so blessed I'm so grateful for the work that I get to do.
And then of course, you know, the podcast with Charles is also,
I was going to say, takes up a lot of time, but it takes up a lot of time because
we're committed and we care and we've learned so much from each other.
So yeah, that's kind of the landscape on top of, you know, being a mom,
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being a wife, running a house.
Oh, and a four-legged, you know, all the other things that we all navigate. Yeah.
I have so many questions for you, But let's start with the podcast,
because not everyone might know about it. So it's an awesome podcast.
I listen to it. I recommend it to everyone I talk to. Tell us about the podcast.
(06:11):
It is now, we're two and a half years in, and almost 70 episodes, which is mind-blowing.
That's amazing. But once upon a time, Charles Feltman, the author of The Thin
Book of Trust, he and I are trained in the same coaching methodology.
So we knew I knew of him he didn't know
of me and that when I bumped into his work
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and coach training it was a topic and
a model that honestly changed my life and so I was really excited about it back
then and used it with every single client or every single opportunity that I
could I took his certification program and shortly thereafter he reached out
and said I have this crazy idea.
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I want to do a podcast and I think I want you to be my partner.
It was like, what? What do you mean?
What are you talking about? And I excitedly and nervously and optimistically said yes.
And if I go back to some of our earlier episodes, I'm sure you do the same with
yours. It's like, oh my gosh, we didn't even know what we didn't even know.
(07:16):
Yes, right there with you. Yeah, yeah. And so it has been a lovely learning
and growing opportunity, I would say.
My trust and relationship with Charles is, I don't even know how to describe it.
I trust him wholeheartedly in the domains where I need to.
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And I'm never going to let him cut my hair.
I'm not going to let him fly a plane that I'm in. So putting that in perspective.
But yeah, we get really great response.
We're recording next week with one of my favorite authors, a book that is often
on my desk, The Field Guide to Emotions by Dan Newby and Curtis Watkins.
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So super interested to dive into the emotion of trust, the associated emotions,
as well as how that fits in with the model of trust, the framework that Charles uses. So yeah.
Can't wait to hear about it. And perhaps we can talk a little bit about the emotions around trust.
But let's start with why trust?
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What about it interests you so much?
I grew up in a time and space where kids ran around until the street lights came home.
And then you got your butt home for dinner. It was a dead end street in Victoria.
Well, a very safe neighborhood. Now I'm really dating myself because you know how long ago that was.
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And I just, I, I didn't have any, any framework, any reference,
you know, there's this big word called trust.
I think many of us from a few years back believed that trust was a moral issue.
And so if you were a good person, you were trustworthy.
And if you, if there was mistrust or distrust in the relationship,
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well, it's certainly not me because I'm a good person. So then it has to be you.
But I have nothing to measure, pinpoint.
I don't know why. It's just a feeling that I have.
And where do we go if we're relying on an ungrounded feeling?
Well, we just start to withdraw and disconnect. And pretty soon,
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the chasm between you and I is so big, and we don't have a relationship anymore.
I would say also, I trusted quite naively, again, because I had no framework or reference.
It was this big elusive topic. And certainly my parents never sat me down and
said, you know, here's this thing called trust. Here's how you navigate it.
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And so I got bitten in the backside quite a few times because I did trust naively or blindly.
And so when this framework was introduced to me, it suddenly,
all the pieces came together.
And it suddenly made so much sense. And, you know, I don't have to bump into
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life and try and figure out this complex, elusive thing.
I've got a way to do it and a way to practice it.
I think it's really interesting what you're saying around trust is something
that is more of a feeling, or at least we think it's more of a feeling.
And we don't really know always what to do with that.
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And so you mentioned a framework and a framework that helps you navigate life
and relationships and all of that.
What does the framework tell you about trust? This framework gives us an ability
to use it as an intentional design of trust, a risk assessment of trust.
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And as important as it is to build trust, it's also prudent to distrust.
Trust so i you know i said jokingly charles is
never going to cut my hair it's because
i don't trust his competency it's nothing to do with him as a person he's he's
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not skilled in how to cut hair so why why would i let him even though i trust
him in so many other ways and so trust and And distrust is a choice.
And we don't realize that. And again, this framework allows us to, well, why would I?
What are the assessments that I'm making that allow me to trust in this particular
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area or this particular domain?
And where is it actually prudent for me not to trust? Again,
not because the person is not trustworthy.
It's simply maybe they don't have the capacity.
Maybe they don't have the competence. maybe it's not something they really care
about and so why what why would I do that mm-hmm.
You mentioned about intentionally designing trust.
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I've never heard of that or thought of that.
And I think that's something that is quite, it's new to me. And I imagine it's
probably new to a lot of people.
What goes into intentionally designing trust?
So good. That's so good. I'll give an example of what I've started to do or
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have done for a little while now with new clients or potential clients that I want to work with.
And so in our discovery time together, I ask them, here's what I want to do.
I want to have a really trusting relationship with you.
Here's where you can count on me in the domain of competence.
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Here's the expertise, the knowledge, the experience that I have and I bring.
I'm also transparent about what's not in my wheelhouse, right?
Please don't expect me to produce Excel spreadsheets with pivot tables.
I can hire that out, but please don't rely on me to do that because it will be a dismal failure.
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Failure yeah and so being transparent about you know number one is where is
my strength what are my you know the tools in my toolbox what can I bring and
what and clearly what's not my strength,
and being really transparent about that now I ask the same question in return
what can I count on you for what strengths are you bringing what where's a strength
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or something a competence that you don't have and we need to know about that
as we design this work together.
The next one that I talk about is sincerity. And so how sincere are you about taking on this project?
Here's my sincerity. Here's what it looks like.
If we sense something that's insincere, how do we take care of that?
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Or if there's a competency thing, how do we take care of that if we find a gap?
Reliability is, do you keep your promises? And how you keep your promises is
as important as how you break them.
So not if there's a tricky or a bump along the road in our relationship together,
but when, how are we going to take care of that?
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Let's talk about that now, because I don't want to disappoint you.
And I know you don't want to disappoint me.
So how do we do that together? How do we design that together?
And then the most important quadrant of trust is care.
So what is our shared care here? I might not care about, you know,
the work you do in your organization, right?
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The widgets that you make, but I sure as hell care about your people.
I care about helping you build more trust. I care about these things.
And so what is our shared care and the outcome that we're working to together?
And when we lose sight of that shared care, how do we come back together about it?
And so like a quick and dirty, those are important conversations.
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Conversations i would say if i look left and
right to a lot of other coach facilitator consultants
in the world those are conversations that are not happening
yeah well i even think about the health care space and think about the things
that i hear from many different people in various areas of health care and trust
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is something that comes up all the time specifically lack of trust.
And it's interesting to me about this idea of intentionally designing it and
having those conversations up front.
One of the things that popped in my brain is this idea that in healthcare,
there's so much that is out of an individual's control.
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And transparency might look
like one thing one day and another thing another day so
how do you continue to
intentionally design trust when you are constantly bombarded by all of these
things that are happening outside of your control such a great question so we
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have relational trust right where you and I design,
navigate, bump into, rebuild, trust in our relationship.
Then in an organization, we also have procedures, systems, you know,
whether it's how to do a particular medical procedure or the paperwork that has to happen.
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And then we have what's the level of trust in the organization.
So what's in the bigger system?
So trust isn't just relational between people.
I think of a couple of organizations that I really do trust.
Not just the people in the organization, but I trust them because of how they
treat me or how they take care of breakdowns or my perception.
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Sadly, and we've talked about this, I'm on the living end of the health care system.
I think there's my experience, 99.9% of the people that I bump into,
they actually do really care.
They really, really do care. Yeah.
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It is sometimes, unfortunately, the systems, procedures,
then also the organizational context, that then they become untrustworthy,
not because of who they are as a person, but because of what they come with and represent.
Right. It is a reality.
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And it's also really horrible to say that out loud, knowing again,
like, I look at some of these nurses in the eyes regularly.
And the ones that for me show up and treat me as a human being.
It changes everything. And I don't know if you've heard me talk about this,
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you know, big changes about the human side of leadership.
So before any role, any title, any credential, anything, we're 100% human first.
And can we start to normalize our humanity and lead and love from heart first?
And so I think individuals, no matter what industry they're in,
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if we can start to dial up a little bit more of our humanity,
even in a system that feels like it doesn't support it.
And it doesn't have to be, I'm playing with my dial here. It can be like 1%. That's it.
Just 1%. That's so interesting.
And it really moves me when you talk about heart first and using that as almost
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the foundation. That's what I'm hearing is that is the foundation.
In the midst of burnout what happens to trust this makes me really sad this makes me really sad,
and i see it in organizations not only in health care where the organization.
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Has lost their care for the people that do the work yeah they're disconnected
from it and or i think of one organization in particular i work with right now
it they just don't see the importance relevant right they're replaceable and
that it that is a horrible thing to say out loud.
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And it's a horrible thing to see in action. And so then I guess what comes up
for me as we're saying this is, this is also something for me to pay attention to.
So where's my heart when I bump into someone or noticing that they're rushed,
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they're overwhelmed, right?
They're all of these things. well then that's my turn to dial up gentle compassion
may not be what i want in the moment but how do i show my humanity in my care
and actually i'll tell if it's okay a recent experience.
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The nurse that was administering treatment
she said like right up front we're short staffed today I'm going to be running
around I'm here for you it just might take me a few extra minutes that changed
everything yeah okay great thank you for thank you for telling me that,
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I then I can extend my heart and my care and understanding because I get it
yeah I think the other thing that we we don't think about and I I'm sure this
has happened to you in your life It's happened to me for sure.
But when burnout and overwhelm, I'm holding my hands up above my nose at the waterline, right?
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We're constantly like under the water. Then we're like, okay,
I can catch a breath. And then we're back under the line.
And then we catch a breath. Beth, think about what happens in our bodies when
we constantly live in that, which I think a lot of our health care professionals are. Yeah.
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And so where's the space to go, oh, I'm going to intentionally build trust?
Yeah. It's not even on their minds. Yeah. They're in complete survival mode.
And so, you know, for me, gentle compassion.
And at what point does our system start to care about people again?
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Yeah. And this is a terrible example.
My husband's looking for work and applying for jobs.
And I would say most online application processes are not designed to build trust.
Those organizations aren't thinking about it from that perspective
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right so he spends lots of time tailoring his
resume cover letter puts it into a system well just
trust the system well that's bullshit because i
don't understand the system yeah it's not transparent it's not clear so why
would i trust it and then on the other end you never hear anything and that
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seems to be okay And I think I don't want to speak as intimately about how the
health care system systems work,
but I think it's very similar, right, where we're designing systems or we have
archaic or historical systems that, of course, you can't just change them in a blink of an eye.
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But as decision makers, leaders are making decisions,
how are we also bringing that care back and setting up systems in a way that
support, that lift up, that help versus hinder, so that that waterline can maybe
come down even a tiny bit?
What do leaders need to do to create space for that intentional design with
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everything else they have on the go?
So hard, Leah. I think, I'm going to come back to it again, is show care.
And care doesn't have to take an hour.
Care can be present with this person, with your direct report,
with your team. Give them your undivided attention.
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Listen to them. Be transparent.
I may not be able to solve this, but I want you to know that I'm hearing you.
I think that's really insightful.
And that idea of giving of your time is a massive step towards creating that space for that care.
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And as you said, many healthcare professionals, leaders, really anyone who is
in the system, the vast majority have that care come to them naturally. really.
And there needs to be intentionality then about how you show it as well.
It sometimes feels like it's the first thing to give, right?
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When the demands and the pressure continue to build, I don't have time for that, Hila.
And it's like, but the five seconds that it takes or the 30 seconds that it
takes will actually save you in the future.
Because when people feel that their leader cares for them, trust will be extended
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much more generously in reliability, sincerity, and competence.
And when I feel that you don't give a about me, I am going to shrink trust in
every single way and give you either transactional trust or situational trust only.
You're not going to get any of my discretionary effort because why would I?
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Why would I? You don't care.
And so again, care doesn't have to be, you know, taking your whole team out for lunch.
Lunch it can be checking in or when
there's something tricky going on i know this
is a situation we're working on i can't tell you everything but i want you to
know that it is being dealt with and what i can what i can tell you i will and
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when i can tell you i will you have my word but not i think there's also you
know there's things that we can't talk about.
There's there's a difference between talking about and disclosing right information
that needs to be confidential or isn't finalized yeah you you can't disclose
that but you can still say i know this issue is rumbling i want you to know
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things are being done i just can't tell you,
or you know there's been a delay so we can't do this or you know what i'm frustrated too do.
I feel you. I am also frustrated.
And normalizing again, how are the people that we lead,
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and love and life, period, empathize, be transparent, be a real human in front
of them. I get how this is hard.
I wish I could fix it. I just want you to know I'm here to support you,
and I don't even know what that looks like, but I'm here. Yeah.
Such an important distinction between talking about something and disclosure.
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You mentioned earlier about when trust breaks.
What happens then? What does that look like? It can be all sorts of different
scenarios that causes a trust breakdown.
And if we don't understand what happened, so why are we assessing distrust or
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what's making us withdraw or pull away, then we don't know how to fix it.
And then that chasm again becomes bigger and bigger.
I love the framework to be able to pinpoint where is the breakdown for me?
Why am I assessing that there's been a trust breakdown? And so is it in the
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area of competence? And if so, what is it?
And it could be that, you know, a leader assessed somebody's level of competence
to be, you know, you guys can't see my hands, but, you know, mid-level.
And the leader was expecting something higher yeah
oh okay so there's a gap all right so do
we need to figure out a plan to close the gap or maybe
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my standard was too high maybe my instruction wasn't
clear sincerity was there a sincerity breakdown did i assess you to say something
but you were like no i'm not gonna do that i'm gonna say yes out loud but no
i'm not gonna do that and you'll forget about it and we won't have to worry
yeah right oh so maybe there's a sincerity breakdown.
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Was it a reliability did you say or did i say i was going to follow through
and i didn't and maybe now that's happened four times and so you know when a
friend makes plans with us and jams at the last minute makes plans jams makes
like after three four seven eighteen times we stop making
plans well we can't do that in the workplace but we certainly can start looking
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for ways to work around them and not rely on them so is there a liability issue
and sometimes the reliability or the delivery isn't clear because we didn't make it clear.
Is it a care issue? Am I sensing this person doesn't really care,
isn't really committed?
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So the breakdown might happen in one, two, three, or all four of those domains.
But until we can identify for ourself where and what is the breakdown about,
we can't do anything until we know that.
And I would say even the step before that is, are we willing?
Because if you're not willing, if you're not willing to have a conversation
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to rebuild, then there's no point. there's no point in going further.
Now you may change your mind at some point and go, yeah, now I am willing.
Maybe the breakdown was really big. Yeah.
But the first step is really where's the breakdown? What happened?
I think the willingness goes back to what you were saying earlier about trust is a choice.
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I see a link between that.
So in order to assess the breakdown, what do people need to do?
What What do they need to ask themselves?
I have my little cheat questions here. So number one, are you willing?
Number two, identify the domain or domains. So where did the breakdown happen?
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Define the standard.
And so great to identify the breakdown, but what actually happened?
Happened so like i said if there is you know a leader expected this level of
competence and the person didn't meet that was it the correct and appropriate
standard for the situation or what often happens is we have standards in our
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head and we should on other people.
So then that's an unclear or even a
missing standard and so maybe there wasn't a breakdown
maybe there isn't a trust breakdown
maybe it's a communication breakdown but again getting really clear was this
what is the standard and is it appropriate for the situation and then the plus
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also is is that person clear that that's what the standard was right and then
we look at what were or the actual actions or behaviors.
And this, Leah, this is where, like, I love the work that I got to do up in
Fort Mac doing observational coaching and learning the world of applied behavioral science.
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And so getting really clear on what were the behaviors, not my assessment about the behaviors.
So if, you know, if I walk through an area where I'm leading a team and I I
notice somebody doing something that, you know, well, they shouldn't be doing
that or they're lazy, right?
That area needs to be cleaned up or, you know, that patient has been left too long.
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They're just, they don't care. They're not, then they're lazy.
So what are the behaviors that are actually leading me to that assessment,
not jumping to the label of you're lazy?
That's fascinating. fascinating and what comes up
for me is this idea of in order to
do all of this there needs to be some rational thought involved and I know from
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my own personal experience that when I feel that trust has been broken in some
capacity I get really emotional about it so what would you say to that.
I love that you said that. I do a lot of work with trust and personal values.
(32:28):
We don't get upset about things that don't matter.
Don't get upset about things that don't matter. And so when my emotions are
at Mach 10 and I can feel my entire body vibrating, it might take me a couple
of days to unpack why I'm so upset.
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I would say 99% of the time I finally figure out as I let my emotions all untangle.
It's like, oh, there's that value that got stomped on.
That's why I'm upset. Oh, okay, what can I do?
Do I want to take care of this? What's my action from here?
And so this, again, this gentle grace for ourselves, when we get really upset, okay, it's data.
(33:18):
To give yourself time and space to unpack, unwind at all, before taking any action at all.
And maybe it's even, I'm really upset with you.
I'm not sure really why I need time to unpack it. When I do that,
would you be open to a conversation?
It strikes me that it's very much about, as you said, giving yourself grace
(33:40):
and space too, and taking care of yourself so that you can then look at it with an open mind.
How do you know when you cannot rebuild trust or or are there instances where you cannot,
(34:03):
well when you have to be willing yeah and so that's that's kind of your first
what's the word i'm looking for line of assessment right am i willing and depending
on the person and the situation, it may be a hard no.
Okay, that's all right. I think the other thing coming back to our,
(34:24):
you know, care and compassion to
self and others is that the distinction between a breach and a betrayal.
And I asked this question with every group that I work with,
how many of you are 100% human.
Of course, everybody's like, ah, there might be a few AI jokes in there,
(34:46):
but then most of them are like, yeah, yeah, I'm 100% human. And I'm like,
great. So you've messed up.
Yeah. Yeah. We all have. Forgot to click send.
Tone was really crispy. You know, dug in about something, argue,
whatever it is, that's called life. That's normal.
It's normalized that we live in a human experience. And so we are going to do
(35:10):
something that breaks trust.
Can we remember that that's simply a breach or a breakdown?
It wasn't done intentionally. I'm a human. I made mistakes.
Now, taking care of the relationship and owning it, that's a trust builder, right?
(35:30):
I've said this to Rowan.
I've said this in front of a large client group recently that I made decisions
that put undue pressure and deadlines on you. And I take accountability for that.
Tell you standing in front of a room of 30 leaders saying that I
felt like I was standing there naked it was the most
vulnerable thing and yet I needed to
(35:52):
do that right yeah and so this
grace and compassion we all screw up it's very
very rarely intentional right nobody wakes
up in the morning is like how can I screw with Leah today right what
can I do to disappoint her and break trust we just don't do
that we jump out of bed and live our lives and it's a
(36:13):
very human experience and we are gonna mess up the difference
is where there's a betrayal and if
I had them handy I'd put my little heart glasses on because I think maybe I'm
a bit naive or choose to believe that the world isn't really full of a lot of
people that intentionally do say behave in a way that they They absolutely know
(36:38):
it's going to hurt another person.
Yeah. And they do it anyway.
Not to say that that isn't repairable, but again, you have to want to.
And depending on the severity of the betrayal, it may be that's the end of the relationship. Mm-hmm.
(36:58):
But I think going back to, you know, this gentle compassion that,
for goodness sake, we all mess up.
Yeah. we all mess up.
Taking accountability right i i didn't
i wasn't present i didn't listen to
you i just want to i have these little do-over cards
(37:19):
i'll have to send you some right so sometimes we don't
we don't know how to start the sentence or start the conversation of like i
messed up so i have these really adorable little do-over cards and it's just
like can i have a do-over and then it kind of opens this it opens the conversation
right yeah I let you down I didn't follow through,
(37:41):
I was really ignorant to my response to you
I want to be accountable for that so yeah let's I'm just I'm putting a plug
here too I have a lot of do-over cards if any of your listeners wants do-over
cards okay have them reach out absolutely yeah let's get do-over cards all over
the place yeah well I think like you said it kind of opens the door for that conversation And,
(38:03):
you know, what's so interesting to me is this idea that through all of this,
figuring out if it's a breach or betrayal,
figuring out how to rebuild, it's that recognition of the humanity in the other person.
And you're also recognizing your own humanity through that process. Yeah.
(38:24):
And so there's a couple of other steps in the rebuilding.
So after you've identified the actions or the behaviors, you also need to look at what's my part.
Because it's never one-sided. Never, never, never. Never.
So I didn't tell the person how I was feeling about them not being reliable. That's my part.
(38:49):
Or I didn't give clear instructions to set that person up for success.
I made a lot of assumptions and should on them.
That's my part. then it's also
what do you need from them in order to
rebuild trust and what does
the other person need from you because again this is a two-way relationship
(39:11):
we both contributed to how we got here it's not one-sided and depending on the
breakdown it may take multiple conversations conversations,
and revisiting to fully rebuild trust.
And maybe it's just a tiny blip and one conversation takes care of it.
(39:32):
But don't just assume that, you know, I've gone through this,
I've said my piece, we should be good.
Maybe not. So if you need more, if you need another conversation,
if you need to like, rebalance or recheck, or, you know, I think I missed a
part, or I sense something still is in between us, what do we need to take care
(39:52):
of? Then revisit the conversation.
Don't expect a one and done.
An element of patience that needs to factor into that.
I think of my own experiences and think many times that I'm hoping for the one
and done, but it's just not reality given the situation.
And so I think that's really insightful as to recognize that these things,
(40:17):
trust takes time and rebuilding of trust takes time as well. Yeah.
I think the final note I would say is reward progress.
So reward progress for yourself when you see yourself doing things that are
intentionally building trust, especially when there's been a breakdown.
(40:39):
And when you see the other person doing the things that you've asked them to
do, I see that you did that, Leah.
Thank you for pausing and checking in.
Or, you know, thank you for being accountable.
Thank you for following through. So reward or reinforce the behaviors we want
to build stronger trust.
(41:00):
Don't just look for ways that they're not meeting it.
Beautiful. Hila, if people are wanting to learn more about trusts,
what's maybe one resource you would recommend to them?
Oh, I would definitely go check out the podcast. Okay. Definitely check out
the podcast, Trust on Purpose.
It's on all major platforms. I would agree.
(41:20):
I also, you can connect with me on LinkedIn. So Hila Edgar.
And my values are generosity, connection and learning and irreverence,
but that's not the important run right now. So I'm always delighted to hear from people.
I love random emails in my inbox or people connecting with me on,
(41:42):
hey, I've got a question about, can we be human and just support each other?
So if there's something that I can do to help or questions that your listeners
have as a follow-up or looking for different resources, just have them reach out.
Thank you so much, Ila, for being here today and sharing your wisdom.
I know there's so much more to say about trust.
(42:02):
We're just barely scratching the surface, but you've given some really great
ideas around trust and how to work with it on a day-to-day basis in that messy
world that is healthcare. So thank you.
You're so welcome. Thank you for having me.
Thanks so much for joining us today at Central Line Leadership in Healthcare.
(42:23):
Also, if you liked what you heard, please head on over to Apple Podcasts to
leave us a review. Be sure to subscribe so that you never miss an episode.
Also, if you'd like to learn more about our host, Leah Wuchek,
check out talltreesleadership.com.
Music.
(00:07):
Welcome to Central Line, Leadership in Healthcare, the show that shares stories,
experiences, and advice from notable and innovative leaders in healthcare.
Leading in healthcare is incredibly challenging, so if you are looking to learn
firsthand from nurses, physicians, administrators, and other healthcare professionals
in leadership and management roles, this is the podcast for you.
(00:31):
Hosted by Leah Wuchek, leadership development expert, executive coach,
healthcare professional, and president and co-founder of Tall Trees Leadership.
We talk with today's successful healthcare leaders on how they get to where
they are, lessons learned along
the way, and what it takes to thrive as a successful leader in healthcare.
(00:52):
Let's get started with your host, Leah Wuchick.
Ila Edgar believes wholeheartedly that trust is the foundation of every relationship,
even the one we have with ourselves.
She worked in various leadership roles, companies, and industries before starting Big Change Inc.,
a practice she founded through which she partners with leaders and teams to
(01:15):
unearth what needs attention in their relationships to pursue leader and team effectiveness.
Sometimes it's a tweak, and sometimes it's deeper. It's always important work.
She is known for getting to the heart of what matters and helping clients develop
a plan to uncover the confidence and skills to become an inspired and inspiring leader.
(01:36):
Ila's questions, insights, and advice about relationship and trust can be heard
on her twice-monthly podcast called Trust on Purpose, which she co-hosts with Charles Feldman.
Every episode delves into how relationships can either thrive or die on the
basis of trust, and offers real discussion and practical advice on how to build,
(01:56):
maintain, and rebuild trust in all of our important relationships.
Ila is a certified Trust at Work facilitator, certified Dare to Lead facilitator,
executive leadership coach, adjunct instructor with SAIT, and is frequently
called upon as a workshop facilitator, presenter, and conference speaker.
Ila can often be heard saying, learning to become intentional about the kind
(02:20):
of leader you want to be is tough and it is work,
but it's incredibly rewarding for you and for those you lead and don't think
for a second that it's about becoming perfect it's entirely about being real.
Music.
(02:48):
Good morning, Ila. How are you today? I'm doing well. How are you today, Leah?
I'm very good. I am so excited to have you. We have been friends now for several
years, and we met, oh gosh, many years ago through our coaching connections.
And I know you are an expert on many things, and trust is one of them.
(03:11):
So I'm hoping we can pick your brain a little bit about trust today?
I would love that. It's one of my most favorite topics. Sounds good.
Well, let's start off with you and what you do right now.
Ah, whoa, that's a big question. You didn't prep me for that one. No, I know, right?
(03:31):
What do I do? What do I do? I have a few juicy things that I'm working on right now.
And I think stepping back for a second, I did come into this entrepreneurial
life and business thinking that I would be a coach, a one-on-one coach,
and that I would support leaders and navigating this life of leadership.
(03:55):
My business has morphed and I actually do very little one-on-one coaching anymore.
What I find so juicy, so rewarding, sometimes hard as heck, is team coaching
and working with an intact unit.
And so that could be from a trust perspective. It can be from we're not getting
(04:18):
the results we need perspective.
It can be we've got a huge challenge in front of us or a huge opportunity in
front of us. And we feel like we need support to get there.
So that would be probably 60% of my work. Yeah.
I also am very blessed and fortunate to be an adjunct instructor at SAIT.
So I'm in the classroom probably a couple times a month teaching leader as coach,
(04:44):
trust and psychological safety, sometimes emotional intelligence.
You know, those real juicy topics that are not, you know, here's an Excel spreadsheet
and here's how you navigate pivot tables.
That's not my thing. Right. Yeah.
And then, you know, there's a really interesting one coming.
There's an organization I've been working with around
(05:05):
trust for a couple of years and they want to
figure out how to operationalize trust across their
entire business which is based
in US and Canada number of locations and everything from c-suite to boots on
the ground so that is like that's exciting that's huge right I know yeah it's
(05:28):
fun I'm so I'm so blessed I'm so grateful for the work that I get to do.
And then of course, you know, the podcast with Charles is also,
I was going to say, takes up a lot of time, but it takes up a lot of time because
we're committed and we care and we've learned so much from each other.
So yeah, that's kind of the landscape on top of, you know, being a mom,
(05:50):
being a wife, running a house.
Oh, and a four-legged, you know, all the other things that we all navigate. Yeah.
I have so many questions for you, But let's start with the podcast,
because not everyone might know about it. So it's an awesome podcast.
I listen to it. I recommend it to everyone I talk to. Tell us about the podcast.
(06:11):
It is now, we're two and a half years in, and almost 70 episodes, which is mind-blowing.
That's amazing. But once upon a time, Charles Feltman, the author of The Thin
Book of Trust, he and I are trained in the same coaching methodology.
So we knew I knew of him he didn't know
of me and that when I bumped into his work
(06:33):
and coach training it was a topic and
a model that honestly changed my life and so I was really excited about it back
then and used it with every single client or every single opportunity that I
could I took his certification program and shortly thereafter he reached out
and said I have this crazy idea.
(06:55):
I want to do a podcast and I think I want you to be my partner.
It was like, what? What do you mean?
What are you talking about? And I excitedly and nervously and optimistically said yes.
And if I go back to some of our earlier episodes, I'm sure you do the same with
yours. It's like, oh my gosh, we didn't even know what we didn't even know.
(07:16):
Yes, right there with you. Yeah, yeah. And so it has been a lovely learning
and growing opportunity, I would say.
My trust and relationship with Charles is, I don't even know how to describe it.
I trust him wholeheartedly in the domains where I need to.
(07:38):
And I'm never going to let him cut my hair.
I'm not going to let him fly a plane that I'm in. So putting that in perspective.
But yeah, we get really great response.
We're recording next week with one of my favorite authors, a book that is often
on my desk, The Field Guide to Emotions by Dan Newby and Curtis Watkins.
(07:59):
So super interested to dive into the emotion of trust, the associated emotions,
as well as how that fits in with the model of trust, the framework that Charles uses. So yeah.
Can't wait to hear about it. And perhaps we can talk a little bit about the emotions around trust.
But let's start with why trust?
(08:21):
What about it interests you so much?
I grew up in a time and space where kids ran around until the street lights came home.
And then you got your butt home for dinner. It was a dead end street in Victoria.
Well, a very safe neighborhood. Now I'm really dating myself because you know how long ago that was.
(08:45):
And I just, I, I didn't have any, any framework, any reference,
you know, there's this big word called trust.
I think many of us from a few years back believed that trust was a moral issue.
And so if you were a good person, you were trustworthy.
And if you, if there was mistrust or distrust in the relationship,
(09:07):
well, it's certainly not me because I'm a good person. So then it has to be you.
But I have nothing to measure, pinpoint.
I don't know why. It's just a feeling that I have.
And where do we go if we're relying on an ungrounded feeling?
Well, we just start to withdraw and disconnect. And pretty soon,
(09:29):
the chasm between you and I is so big, and we don't have a relationship anymore.
I would say also, I trusted quite naively, again, because I had no framework or reference.
It was this big elusive topic. And certainly my parents never sat me down and
said, you know, here's this thing called trust. Here's how you navigate it.
(09:52):
And so I got bitten in the backside quite a few times because I did trust naively or blindly.
And so when this framework was introduced to me, it suddenly,
all the pieces came together.
And it suddenly made so much sense. And, you know, I don't have to bump into
(10:14):
life and try and figure out this complex, elusive thing.
I've got a way to do it and a way to practice it.
I think it's really interesting what you're saying around trust is something
that is more of a feeling, or at least we think it's more of a feeling.
And we don't really know always what to do with that.
(10:38):
And so you mentioned a framework and a framework that helps you navigate life
and relationships and all of that.
What does the framework tell you about trust? This framework gives us an ability
to use it as an intentional design of trust, a risk assessment of trust.
(11:00):
And as important as it is to build trust, it's also prudent to distrust.
Trust so i you know i said jokingly charles is
never going to cut my hair it's because
i don't trust his competency it's nothing to do with him as a person he's he's
(11:21):
not skilled in how to cut hair so why why would i let him even though i trust
him in so many other ways and so trust and And distrust is a choice.
And we don't realize that. And again, this framework allows us to, well, why would I?
What are the assessments that I'm making that allow me to trust in this particular
(11:44):
area or this particular domain?
And where is it actually prudent for me not to trust? Again,
not because the person is not trustworthy.
It's simply maybe they don't have the capacity.
Maybe they don't have the competence. maybe it's not something they really care
about and so why what why would I do that mm-hmm.
You mentioned about intentionally designing trust.
(12:08):
I've never heard of that or thought of that.
And I think that's something that is quite, it's new to me. And I imagine it's
probably new to a lot of people.
What goes into intentionally designing trust?
So good. That's so good. I'll give an example of what I've started to do or
(12:32):
have done for a little while now with new clients or potential clients that I want to work with.
And so in our discovery time together, I ask them, here's what I want to do.
I want to have a really trusting relationship with you.
Here's where you can count on me in the domain of competence.
(12:54):
Here's the expertise, the knowledge, the experience that I have and I bring.
I'm also transparent about what's not in my wheelhouse, right?
Please don't expect me to produce Excel spreadsheets with pivot tables.
I can hire that out, but please don't rely on me to do that because it will be a dismal failure.
(13:15):
Failure yeah and so being transparent about you know number one is where is
my strength what are my you know the tools in my toolbox what can I bring and
what and clearly what's not my strength,
and being really transparent about that now I ask the same question in return
what can I count on you for what strengths are you bringing what where's a strength
(13:36):
or something a competence that you don't have and we need to know about that
as we design this work together.
The next one that I talk about is sincerity. And so how sincere are you about taking on this project?
Here's my sincerity. Here's what it looks like.
If we sense something that's insincere, how do we take care of that?
(13:56):
Or if there's a competency thing, how do we take care of that if we find a gap?
Reliability is, do you keep your promises? And how you keep your promises is
as important as how you break them.
So not if there's a tricky or a bump along the road in our relationship together,
but when, how are we going to take care of that?
(14:18):
Let's talk about that now, because I don't want to disappoint you.
And I know you don't want to disappoint me.
So how do we do that together? How do we design that together?
And then the most important quadrant of trust is care.
So what is our shared care here? I might not care about, you know,
the work you do in your organization, right?
(14:40):
The widgets that you make, but I sure as hell care about your people.
I care about helping you build more trust. I care about these things.
And so what is our shared care and the outcome that we're working to together?
And when we lose sight of that shared care, how do we come back together about it?
And so like a quick and dirty, those are important conversations.
(15:01):
Conversations i would say if i look left and
right to a lot of other coach facilitator consultants
in the world those are conversations that are not happening
yeah well i even think about the health care space and think about the things
that i hear from many different people in various areas of health care and trust
(15:25):
is something that comes up all the time specifically lack of trust.
And it's interesting to me about this idea of intentionally designing it and
having those conversations up front.
One of the things that popped in my brain is this idea that in healthcare,
there's so much that is out of an individual's control.
(15:50):
And transparency might look
like one thing one day and another thing another day so
how do you continue to
intentionally design trust when you are constantly bombarded by all of these
things that are happening outside of your control such a great question so we
(16:15):
have relational trust right where you and I design,
navigate, bump into, rebuild, trust in our relationship.
Then in an organization, we also have procedures, systems, you know,
whether it's how to do a particular medical procedure or the paperwork that has to happen.
(16:38):
And then we have what's the level of trust in the organization.
So what's in the bigger system?
So trust isn't just relational between people.
I think of a couple of organizations that I really do trust.
Not just the people in the organization, but I trust them because of how they
treat me or how they take care of breakdowns or my perception.
(17:04):
Sadly, and we've talked about this, I'm on the living end of the health care system.
I think there's my experience, 99.9% of the people that I bump into,
they actually do really care.
They really, really do care. Yeah.
(17:24):
It is sometimes, unfortunately, the systems, procedures,
then also the organizational context, that then they become untrustworthy,
not because of who they are as a person, but because of what they come with and represent.
Right. It is a reality.
(17:46):
And it's also really horrible to say that out loud, knowing again,
like, I look at some of these nurses in the eyes regularly.
And the ones that for me show up and treat me as a human being.
It changes everything. And I don't know if you've heard me talk about this,
(18:08):
you know, big changes about the human side of leadership.
So before any role, any title, any credential, anything, we're 100% human first.
And can we start to normalize our humanity and lead and love from heart first?
And so I think individuals, no matter what industry they're in,
(18:31):
if we can start to dial up a little bit more of our humanity,
even in a system that feels like it doesn't support it.
And it doesn't have to be, I'm playing with my dial here. It can be like 1%. That's it.
Just 1%. That's so interesting.
And it really moves me when you talk about heart first and using that as almost
(18:57):
the foundation. That's what I'm hearing is that is the foundation.
In the midst of burnout what happens to trust this makes me really sad this makes me really sad,
and i see it in organizations not only in health care where the organization.
(19:18):
Has lost their care for the people that do the work yeah they're disconnected
from it and or i think of one organization in particular i work with right now
it they just don't see the importance relevant right they're replaceable and
that it that is a horrible thing to say out loud.
(19:40):
And it's a horrible thing to see in action. And so then I guess what comes up
for me as we're saying this is, this is also something for me to pay attention to.
So where's my heart when I bump into someone or noticing that they're rushed,
(20:02):
they're overwhelmed, right?
They're all of these things. well then that's my turn to dial up gentle compassion
may not be what i want in the moment but how do i show my humanity in my care
and actually i'll tell if it's okay a recent experience.
(20:23):
The nurse that was administering treatment
she said like right up front we're short staffed today I'm going to be running
around I'm here for you it just might take me a few extra minutes that changed
everything yeah okay great thank you for thank you for telling me that,
(20:45):
I then I can extend my heart and my care and understanding because I get it
yeah I think the other thing that we we don't think about and I I'm sure this
has happened to you in your life It's happened to me for sure.
But when burnout and overwhelm, I'm holding my hands up above my nose at the waterline, right?
(21:08):
We're constantly like under the water. Then we're like, okay,
I can catch a breath. And then we're back under the line.
And then we catch a breath. Beth, think about what happens in our bodies when
we constantly live in that, which I think a lot of our health care professionals are. Yeah.
(21:28):
And so where's the space to go, oh, I'm going to intentionally build trust?
Yeah. It's not even on their minds. Yeah. They're in complete survival mode.
And so, you know, for me, gentle compassion.
And at what point does our system start to care about people again?
(21:51):
Yeah. And this is a terrible example.
My husband's looking for work and applying for jobs.
And I would say most online application processes are not designed to build trust.
Those organizations aren't thinking about it from that perspective
(22:13):
right so he spends lots of time tailoring his
resume cover letter puts it into a system well just
trust the system well that's bullshit because i
don't understand the system yeah it's not transparent it's not clear so why
would i trust it and then on the other end you never hear anything and that
(22:33):
seems to be okay And I think I don't want to speak as intimately about how the
health care system systems work,
but I think it's very similar, right, where we're designing systems or we have
archaic or historical systems that, of course, you can't just change them in a blink of an eye.
(22:53):
But as decision makers, leaders are making decisions,
how are we also bringing that care back and setting up systems in a way that
support, that lift up, that help versus hinder, so that that waterline can maybe
come down even a tiny bit?
What do leaders need to do to create space for that intentional design with
(23:20):
everything else they have on the go?
So hard, Leah. I think, I'm going to come back to it again, is show care.
And care doesn't have to take an hour.
Care can be present with this person, with your direct report,
with your team. Give them your undivided attention.
(23:43):
Listen to them. Be transparent.
I may not be able to solve this, but I want you to know that I'm hearing you.
I think that's really insightful.
And that idea of giving of your time is a massive step towards creating that space for that care.
(24:03):
And as you said, many healthcare professionals, leaders, really anyone who is
in the system, the vast majority have that care come to them naturally. really.
And there needs to be intentionality then about how you show it as well.
It sometimes feels like it's the first thing to give, right?
(24:27):
When the demands and the pressure continue to build, I don't have time for that, Hila.
And it's like, but the five seconds that it takes or the 30 seconds that it
takes will actually save you in the future.
Because when people feel that their leader cares for them, trust will be extended
(24:51):
much more generously in reliability, sincerity, and competence.
And when I feel that you don't give a about me, I am going to shrink trust in
every single way and give you either transactional trust or situational trust only.
You're not going to get any of my discretionary effort because why would I?
(25:11):
Why would I? You don't care.
And so again, care doesn't have to be, you know, taking your whole team out for lunch.
Lunch it can be checking in or when
there's something tricky going on i know this
is a situation we're working on i can't tell you everything but i want you to
know that it is being dealt with and what i can what i can tell you i will and
(25:35):
when i can tell you i will you have my word but not i think there's also you
know there's things that we can't talk about.
There's there's a difference between talking about and disclosing right information
that needs to be confidential or isn't finalized yeah you you can't disclose
that but you can still say i know this issue is rumbling i want you to know
(25:59):
things are being done i just can't tell you,
or you know there's been a delay so we can't do this or you know what i'm frustrated too do.
I feel you. I am also frustrated.
And normalizing again, how are the people that we lead,
(26:19):
and love and life, period, empathize, be transparent, be a real human in front
of them. I get how this is hard.
I wish I could fix it. I just want you to know I'm here to support you,
and I don't even know what that looks like, but I'm here. Yeah.
Such an important distinction between talking about something and disclosure.
(26:42):
You mentioned earlier about when trust breaks.
What happens then? What does that look like? It can be all sorts of different
scenarios that causes a trust breakdown.
And if we don't understand what happened, so why are we assessing distrust or
(27:05):
what's making us withdraw or pull away, then we don't know how to fix it.
And then that chasm again becomes bigger and bigger.
I love the framework to be able to pinpoint where is the breakdown for me?
Why am I assessing that there's been a trust breakdown? And so is it in the
(27:27):
area of competence? And if so, what is it?
And it could be that, you know, a leader assessed somebody's level of competence
to be, you know, you guys can't see my hands, but, you know, mid-level.
And the leader was expecting something higher yeah
oh okay so there's a gap all right so do
we need to figure out a plan to close the gap or maybe
(27:50):
my standard was too high maybe my instruction wasn't
clear sincerity was there a sincerity breakdown did i assess you to say something
but you were like no i'm not gonna do that i'm gonna say yes out loud but no
i'm not gonna do that and you'll forget about it and we won't have to worry
yeah right oh so maybe there's a sincerity breakdown.
(28:12):
Was it a reliability did you say or did i say i was going to follow through
and i didn't and maybe now that's happened four times and so you know when a
friend makes plans with us and jams at the last minute makes plans jams makes
like after three four seven eighteen times we stop making
plans well we can't do that in the workplace but we certainly can start looking
(28:37):
for ways to work around them and not rely on them so is there a liability issue
and sometimes the reliability or the delivery isn't clear because we didn't make it clear.
Is it a care issue? Am I sensing this person doesn't really care,
isn't really committed?
(28:58):
So the breakdown might happen in one, two, three, or all four of those domains.
But until we can identify for ourself where and what is the breakdown about,
we can't do anything until we know that.
And I would say even the step before that is, are we willing?
Because if you're not willing, if you're not willing to have a conversation
(29:20):
to rebuild, then there's no point. there's no point in going further.
Now you may change your mind at some point and go, yeah, now I am willing.
Maybe the breakdown was really big. Yeah.
But the first step is really where's the breakdown? What happened?
I think the willingness goes back to what you were saying earlier about trust is a choice.
(29:43):
I see a link between that.
So in order to assess the breakdown, what do people need to do?
What What do they need to ask themselves?
I have my little cheat questions here. So number one, are you willing?
Number two, identify the domain or domains. So where did the breakdown happen?
(30:08):
Define the standard.
And so great to identify the breakdown, but what actually happened?
Happened so like i said if there is you know a leader expected this level of
competence and the person didn't meet that was it the correct and appropriate
standard for the situation or what often happens is we have standards in our
(30:33):
head and we should on other people.
So then that's an unclear or even a
missing standard and so maybe there wasn't a breakdown
maybe there isn't a trust breakdown
maybe it's a communication breakdown but again getting really clear was this
what is the standard and is it appropriate for the situation and then the plus
(30:56):
also is is that person clear that that's what the standard was right and then
we look at what were or the actual actions or behaviors.
And this, Leah, this is where, like, I love the work that I got to do up in
Fort Mac doing observational coaching and learning the world of applied behavioral science.
(31:18):
And so getting really clear on what were the behaviors, not my assessment about the behaviors.
So if, you know, if I walk through an area where I'm leading a team and I I
notice somebody doing something that, you know, well, they shouldn't be doing
that or they're lazy, right?
That area needs to be cleaned up or, you know, that patient has been left too long.
(31:42):
They're just, they don't care. They're not, then they're lazy.
So what are the behaviors that are actually leading me to that assessment,
not jumping to the label of you're lazy?
That's fascinating. fascinating and what comes up
for me is this idea of in order to
do all of this there needs to be some rational thought involved and I know from
(32:06):
my own personal experience that when I feel that trust has been broken in some
capacity I get really emotional about it so what would you say to that.
I love that you said that. I do a lot of work with trust and personal values.
(32:28):
We don't get upset about things that don't matter.
Don't get upset about things that don't matter. And so when my emotions are
at Mach 10 and I can feel my entire body vibrating, it might take me a couple
of days to unpack why I'm so upset.
(32:49):
I would say 99% of the time I finally figure out as I let my emotions all untangle.
It's like, oh, there's that value that got stomped on.
That's why I'm upset. Oh, okay, what can I do?
Do I want to take care of this? What's my action from here?
And so this, again, this gentle grace for ourselves, when we get really upset, okay, it's data.
(33:18):
To give yourself time and space to unpack, unwind at all, before taking any action at all.
And maybe it's even, I'm really upset with you.
I'm not sure really why I need time to unpack it. When I do that,
would you be open to a conversation?
It strikes me that it's very much about, as you said, giving yourself grace
(33:40):
and space too, and taking care of yourself so that you can then look at it with an open mind.
How do you know when you cannot rebuild trust or or are there instances where you cannot,
(34:03):
well when you have to be willing yeah and so that's that's kind of your first
what's the word i'm looking for line of assessment right am i willing and depending
on the person and the situation, it may be a hard no.
Okay, that's all right. I think the other thing coming back to our,
(34:24):
you know, care and compassion to
self and others is that the distinction between a breach and a betrayal.
And I asked this question with every group that I work with,
how many of you are 100% human.
Of course, everybody's like, ah, there might be a few AI jokes in there,
(34:46):
but then most of them are like, yeah, yeah, I'm 100% human. And I'm like,
great. So you've messed up.
Yeah. Yeah. We all have. Forgot to click send.
Tone was really crispy. You know, dug in about something, argue,
whatever it is, that's called life. That's normal.
It's normalized that we live in a human experience. And so we are going to do
(35:10):
something that breaks trust.
Can we remember that that's simply a breach or a breakdown?
It wasn't done intentionally. I'm a human. I made mistakes.
Now, taking care of the relationship and owning it, that's a trust builder, right?
(35:30):
I've said this to Rowan.
I've said this in front of a large client group recently that I made decisions
that put undue pressure and deadlines on you. And I take accountability for that.
Tell you standing in front of a room of 30 leaders saying that I
felt like I was standing there naked it was the most
vulnerable thing and yet I needed to
(35:52):
do that right yeah and so this
grace and compassion we all screw up it's very
very rarely intentional right nobody wakes
up in the morning is like how can I screw with Leah today right what
can I do to disappoint her and break trust we just don't do
that we jump out of bed and live our lives and it's a
(36:13):
very human experience and we are gonna mess up the difference
is where there's a betrayal and if
I had them handy I'd put my little heart glasses on because I think maybe I'm
a bit naive or choose to believe that the world isn't really full of a lot of
people that intentionally do say behave in a way that they They absolutely know
(36:38):
it's going to hurt another person.
Yeah. And they do it anyway.
Not to say that that isn't repairable, but again, you have to want to.
And depending on the severity of the betrayal, it may be that's the end of the relationship. Mm-hmm.
(36:58):
But I think going back to, you know, this gentle compassion that,
for goodness sake, we all mess up.
Yeah. we all mess up.
Taking accountability right i i didn't
i wasn't present i didn't listen to
you i just want to i have these little do-over cards
(37:19):
i'll have to send you some right so sometimes we don't
we don't know how to start the sentence or start the conversation of like i
messed up so i have these really adorable little do-over cards and it's just
like can i have a do-over and then it kind of opens this it opens the conversation
right yeah I let you down I didn't follow through,
(37:41):
I was really ignorant to my response to you
I want to be accountable for that so yeah let's I'm just I'm putting a plug
here too I have a lot of do-over cards if any of your listeners wants do-over
cards okay have them reach out absolutely yeah let's get do-over cards all over
the place yeah well I think like you said it kind of opens the door for that conversation And,
(38:03):
you know, what's so interesting to me is this idea that through all of this,
figuring out if it's a breach or betrayal,
figuring out how to rebuild, it's that recognition of the humanity in the other person.
And you're also recognizing your own humanity through that process. Yeah.
(38:24):
And so there's a couple of other steps in the rebuilding.
So after you've identified the actions or the behaviors, you also need to look at what's my part.
Because it's never one-sided. Never, never, never. Never.
So I didn't tell the person how I was feeling about them not being reliable. That's my part.
(38:49):
Or I didn't give clear instructions to set that person up for success.
I made a lot of assumptions and should on them.
That's my part. then it's also
what do you need from them in order to
rebuild trust and what does
the other person need from you because again this is a two-way relationship
(39:11):
we both contributed to how we got here it's not one-sided and depending on the
breakdown it may take multiple conversations conversations,
and revisiting to fully rebuild trust.
And maybe it's just a tiny blip and one conversation takes care of it.
(39:32):
But don't just assume that, you know, I've gone through this,
I've said my piece, we should be good.
Maybe not. So if you need more, if you need another conversation,
if you need to like, rebalance or recheck, or, you know, I think I missed a
part, or I sense something still is in between us, what do we need to take care
(39:52):
of? Then revisit the conversation.
Don't expect a one and done.
An element of patience that needs to factor into that.
I think of my own experiences and think many times that I'm hoping for the one
and done, but it's just not reality given the situation.
And so I think that's really insightful as to recognize that these things,
(40:17):
trust takes time and rebuilding of trust takes time as well. Yeah.
I think the final note I would say is reward progress.
So reward progress for yourself when you see yourself doing things that are
intentionally building trust, especially when there's been a breakdown.
(40:39):
And when you see the other person doing the things that you've asked them to
do, I see that you did that, Leah.
Thank you for pausing and checking in.
Or, you know, thank you for being accountable.
Thank you for following through. So reward or reinforce the behaviors we want
to build stronger trust.
(41:00):
Don't just look for ways that they're not meeting it.
Beautiful. Hila, if people are wanting to learn more about trusts,
what's maybe one resource you would recommend to them?
Oh, I would definitely go check out the podcast. Okay. Definitely check out
the podcast, Trust on Purpose.
It's on all major platforms. I would agree.
(41:20):
I also, you can connect with me on LinkedIn. So Hila Edgar.
And my values are generosity, connection and learning and irreverence,
but that's not the important run right now. So I'm always delighted to hear from people.
I love random emails in my inbox or people connecting with me on,
(41:42):
hey, I've got a question about, can we be human and just support each other?
So if there's something that I can do to help or questions that your listeners
have as a follow-up or looking for different resources, just have them reach out.
Thank you so much, Ila, for being here today and sharing your wisdom.
I know there's so much more to say about trust.
(42:02):
We're just barely scratching the surface, but you've given some really great
ideas around trust and how to work with it on a day-to-day basis in that messy
world that is healthcare. So thank you.
You're so welcome. Thank you for having me.
Thanks so much for joining us today at Central Line Leadership in Healthcare.
(42:23):
Also, if you liked what you heard, please head on over to Apple Podcasts to
leave us a review. Be sure to subscribe so that you never miss an episode.
Also, if you'd like to learn more about our host, Leah Wuchek,
check out talltreesleadership.com.
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