June 19, 2024 • 48 mins
Leah sits down with Kat Newport, a passionate Conflict Educator and Coach renowned for her expertise in guiding leaders and teams through tough situations. Kat shares her unique approach to conflict, viewing it not as a hurdle, but as a catalyst for positive growth and creativity in the workplace.
Kat delves into her philosophy of "Smart Conflict," emphasizing the importance of self-awareness in how we handle disputes. She provides practical tools and strategies for navigating workplace conflicts, offering insights on effective communication, providing feedback, and managing relationships to ensure psychological safety.
While most people tend to shy away from conflict, Kat sees it as a breeding ground for creativity. She argues that without differing perspectives (aka conflict), we limit our ability to think outside the box. By engaging with conflict constructively, we can foster innovation and growth within our teams and organizations.
The conversation touches on the unique challenges faced in the healthcare sector, where conflict can be particularly intense due to the high stakes involved. Kat and Leah discuss the emotional burden on healthcare providers and the critical need for effective conflict management to ensure patient wellbeing and professional resilience.
Kat emphasizes the power of intentionality in shaping our workplace environment and relationships, encouraging listeners to engage in conversations about conflict proactively.
Join Leah and Kat for an inspiring discussion on turning workplace conflict into an opportunity for positive change and innovation.
Discover the secrets of SMART Conflict discussed in the podcast: https://share.hsforms.com/1OhnWOJZ5QPq6Up4toMtHdgnwn0r
Kat’s website: www.SmartConflictBook.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Music.
(00:07):
Welcome to Central Line, Leadership in Healthcare, the show that shares stories,
experiences, and advice from notable and innovative leaders in healthcare.
Leading in healthcare is incredibly challenging, so if you are looking to learn
firsthand from nurses, physicians, administrators, and other healthcare professionals
in leadership and management roles, this is the podcast for you.
(00:31):
Hosted by Leah Wuchek, leadership development expert, executive coach,
healthcare professional, and president and co-founder of Tall Trees Leadership.
We talk with today's successful healthcare leaders on how they get to where
they are, lessons learned along
the way, and what it takes to thrive as a successful leader in healthcare.
(00:52):
Let's get started with your host, Leah Wuchick.
Kat Newport is a passionate conflict educator and coach with a knack for helping
leaders and teams navigate tough situations.
Observations with over 30 years of corporate
leadership experience in organizational development and
quality management Kat brings a wealth of knowledge and a personal touch to
(01:15):
her coaching Kat offers engaging workshops master classes and personalized training
to help you handle conflict boost emotional intelligence and build a culture
of trust she's also the author of Smart Conflict,
where she shares practical tips for turning disputes into opportunities for growth.
(01:35):
Active in the coaching community and a board member of the International Coaching
Federation, Calgary Charter Chapter, and supports training and programs as a
chair in the Calgary section of the American Society for Quality.
Kat is dedicated to empowering professionals to thrive.
Join her for insightful sessions that transform challenges into successes.
(01:58):
Music.
Good morning, Kat. How are you? I'm good, Leah. I'm good. How are you?
I'm doing great. Welcome to Central Line Leadership in Healthcare.
(02:21):
I'm excited to have you here.
And pick your brain about having a smart conflict.
Before we dive into the details, what I'm curious about is you and your background
and what Kat is all about.
So if you want to just Just share with everyone your journey to this point. That would be great.
(02:44):
My, there's a whole show in its own, eh? Yeah, right.
Where did I come from? Where am I going? In a nutshell, I bring conflict into
your workplace, converting it, of course, into a catalyst for positive growth and change.
And I have extensive experience in leadership.
I've been working at a national director level for many, many, many decades.
(03:08):
That makes me feel so old.
Working in organizational development and quality controls.
So I provide tools and strategies necessary for effective dispute management
in the workplace, providing effective feedback, and managing relationships and psychological safety.
So in a nutshell, that's it.
(03:28):
Beautiful. And I also do know that you're a coach as well. Well,
I am. I am a coach. I am an author.
Yeah, I teach stretch classes. So yeah, whole mind, body, spirit kind of thing going on over here.
Yeah, I love it. And maybe we'll start with the book because I know this was
a really recent achievement for you and it's a massive achievement.
(03:52):
So tell us a little bit about the book.
So I stepped away from corporate leadership just over a year ago now and said,
what am I going to do with my time?
Because I'm one of those people who's, you know, if I'm not going Mach 5 with
my hair on fire, I feel kind of bored.
One of those folks. So when I was working in corporate, one of the biggest organizational
(04:16):
development trainings for managers and leaders that kept coming up when I was
managing that was, how do I manage conflict?
What do I say? How do I make the other person insert blank?
How do I make them do whatever I want them to do? So when I sat down with it,
I'm like, okay, what is this book going to be about? Because there's always
been a dream to write that book.
(04:37):
And in the span of 12 months, it went from conceptualization to writing to publish,
and it's now available on Amazon.
So yeah. Yeah, it's very exciting. And I know it's no small feat to put together
a book from concept to publish.
And the fact that you did it in 12 months really blows my mind because I do
(05:01):
know it's quite a long process.
So with conflict, I mean, I know it's something that I don't think any one of us enjoys.
I think many of us, many of us, and maybe I'm making a big assumption there,
many of us really try and shy away from conflict.
(05:23):
I'm curious to hear your perspective on conflict. My perspective on conflict,
for me, conflict is creativity.
I'm a creative person. And for those of you who are watching, you can see the video.
I'm a creative kind of person. I'm an artist. I enjoy being out there,
you know, that kind of thing.
And the thing is, is we're always told to think outside the box.
(05:44):
I hear this in corporate all the time. You should think outside the box.
But if you're never in conflict, which is defined as a difference of perspective
with another person, if you're looking for wartime conflict,
that's outside my scope.
Conflict is just a difference of perspective. And if you're never entertaining
someone else's perspective,
(06:06):
it's really hard to think outside the box because the only thing you're thinking
in is your own personal perspective and judgments and narrative.
So conflict is a catalyst and a trigger for creativity and innovation in the
workplace when handled in a healthy kind of way.
I would assume the key is the healthy way and that when it's not handled in
(06:33):
that healthy way, the opposite may be true.
Very much so. The thing with conflict is we've been learning how to manage conflict
since the very moment we drew breath in our families, in our relationships, in our friendships.
We've been getting these narratives. If we've never sat down and really thought
(06:53):
about conflict or never sat down and got trained on how to manage conflict in
a healthy way, we have some habits.
And if you've been privileged enough to get some habits that are really,
really helpful and kind of healthy, you're going to handle conflict in a more positive way.
If your narratives have been a little bit darker, a little bit less healthy,
(07:14):
and your habits are a little bit less healthy,
you lapse into things like conflict avoidance and emotional outbursts and,
you know, it's the silent treatment and gossip in a workplace or gossip at home,
depending on your family, these kinds of things.
So if you're not conscious about how you look at conflict and how you personally
(07:36):
interact with conflict, yeah, it can definitely be unhealthy.
And I think that's one of the unique things about the book, Smart Conflict,
is I'm looking at it through the lens of what do you as an individual bring
to the table Well, in the workplace,
what are you carrying in that backpack that's showing up and might not be supporting
your workplace relationships and your professional development? Hmm.
(08:00):
It's interesting because obviously in healthcare, like many different industries,
conflict is prevalent on a day-to-day basis.
What I find with the people I talk with in healthcare, clients,
colleagues, friends, from my own experience, is that conflict in healthcare can be,
(08:24):
more loaded because of the potential impact down the line, particularly on the
well-being of patients and clients.
So yeah, what are your thoughts on that? Not a huge amount of respect coming right out of the gate.
When you're working in healthcare, you're seeing folks on some of the worst days of their lives.
(08:46):
And you're dealing with that emotional load and dealing with that emotional
work that goes along with that. So it just sort of compounds everything.
As you look forward into, oh my gosh, how does this affect the level of care?
How does this affect how we work together across silos? How does this affect all of these things?
It becomes even more important to understand what you're bringing to the table
(09:09):
and then really looking at the three phases of conflict.
When I talk to folks about conflict, what usually happens is we talk about the
flashpoint, the point where, you know, you and I have a disagreement,
we have a difference of perspective,
and we have to deal with each other, and this is what we want to talk about, is this moment in time.
(09:30):
That's the middle step. So we skipped over the first step. We're into the middle step.
And most people completely forget about the third step. So we got to look at that mitigation.
How are you managing your day-to-day relationships when the pressure is not
on, when the flash is not there, that will reduce the heat, that conflict,
(09:52):
or potentially sidestep the conflict altogether? together.
After the conflict, we really got to look at restoration. How are you restoring
equilibrium in your relationships?
And I keep talking about relationships, but when you're at work,
you have relationships with every other person you have contact with,
from the person who gave you coffee this morning at the cafe downstairs to your
(10:16):
colleague working with you on the floor.
These are all relationships of differing size, differing scope, and differing depth.
So when I say relationships, I'm not referring to this is my partner and we
have kids together. I'm referring to just generalized relationships.
So when we look at the flashpoint, we have to look at what happens after.
(10:38):
How do we soothe hurt feelings?
How do we move forward from the flashpoint now that we've agreed this is what we're going to do?
How do we address this if something like this comes up in the future,
how do I make you feel safe with me again?
And how do I make you feel safe? And how do I feel safe as we move forward together?
(10:59):
Because we're going to be on shift together again, at some point,
we're going to have to work together again at some point.
And if we're at odds, that might pose a problem.
And I think, you know, what you said was really insightful. And what comes up
for me is how close a lot of healthcare workers are in their relationships and
(11:24):
how closely they need to work together.
So that when there is a breakdown of that relationship, the effects are significant.
For many people in healthcare, it's not like they can go like retreat to their
office and never see that person ever again, right?
They need to work with them on a daily basis.
And as you know, one of the challenges that I would say the biggest challenge
(11:49):
in health care right now is retention and recruitment.
There is a very real workforce crisis facing Canadian health care,
but worldwide health care as well.
And so I'm curious how we can use that creative process within healthy conflict
as a tool for retention. Or is that possible?
(12:14):
It's definitely possible. I mean, if you look at the statistics,
and a lot of them are coming out of the States, just because of the sheer volume
of folks down there compared to up here in the Great White North,
90% of people are going to have a workplace conflict.
And one out of 20 people are going to be eliminated from their role because
of toxic behavior. That's 5% of your workforce.
(12:37):
That's huge. Yeah. Particularly when you're facing a hiring crunch,
when you're facing retention and attrition challenges, losing 5% because of
that toxic behavior is a little bit too much.
Too much in general, but a little bit too much, particularly when you're facing the crunch.
So what a lot of folks are saying is that their frontline managers aren't dealing
(13:01):
with conflicts proactively and positively.
So it's about getting on the same page with the rest of of the team,
it's about staying on the same page. It's about not shying away.
And it's about having the same language around conflict.
It's one of the reasons why I kind of started our conversation with this is
how I define conflict. So we're talking about the same thing.
(13:23):
I've been chatting with other folks, with other clients going,
you know, I like your definition of conflict, but where's the hostility?
Conflict doesn't always have hostility.
In extreme cases, is it certainly does, but it doesn't always have hostility.
So it's really about coming onto that same page, making sure staff feels supported,
(13:45):
making sure we have that relationship building and moving through all phases, the mitigation,
the resolution, and the restoration so that people feel secure enough,
people feel empowered enough to stay,
particularly in a healthcare environment where you do have a lot of emotional
labor, that psychological safety becomes incredibly important.
(14:10):
You mentioned earlier about the three phases, and you said the one that gets
missed the most between mitigation, resolution, and restoration is restoration.
Why is that?
After the flashpoint of a conflict, a lot of folks are like,
oh, thank goodness it's over.
And they never want to talk about it again. Yeah.
(14:34):
And we're left with this vacuum of, yes, we've had it. Yes, we survived this conflict.
But what do we do now? So you're walking down the hallway and you see the other
person coming towards you. You're going, what's going to happen now?
Are we going to have this tension? Are we going to have this conflict? like
continue because we now have you
(14:54):
know bad blood or whatever yeah so trying
to get away from that emotion of i
feel uncomfort i feel discomfort in this relationship we have a tendency to
try and forget about the relationship to bring some emotional relief unfortunately
what happens there is you get emotional relief in the short term but the next
(15:16):
time you see the person you have that emotional discomfort again.
And then this can lead to other dynamics in the workplace. For example, gossip.
Because I feel uncomfortable because we've had a conflict, I'm going to talk
to a closer friend saying, gee, you know, Sally, I'm really uncomfortable with her.
You know, she did these things and, you know, I'm not really happy.
(15:36):
And I get emotional relief from that.
But I'm also spreading gossip. And now my friend thinks Sally's a bit odd because,
you know, Now Sally and I had a thing, and now we have this self-feeding environment
of unhealthy conflict coping mechanisms, which gossip is one. Yeah.
And I would say gossip is a significant challenge within many healthcare environments.
(16:02):
And it's interesting what you're saying around that gossip can be that emotional
release and an unhealthy coping technique.
So how do you address the restoration phase? What do you need to do?
Oh, looking at that relationship, thinking about, okay, I've had a conflict
(16:27):
with my floor supervisor.
I know I'm going to have to come back in tomorrow. I know this.
It's on the schedule. I know I have to come back in and I have to face this individual.
I really need to think about what I want that relationship with my floor supervisor to look like.
And a lot of people don't project forward.
Forward they look at the moment and they
(16:49):
don't say how am i going to survive this tomorrow next
week next month next year so it's
really being deliberate about how you want
to show up and how you want that relationship to look as you move forward and
then opening a discussion about it it takes a lot of courage to sit down and
(17:10):
say you know floor supervisor i really want us to get along as we move forward.
How does this look for you and how can we work together to get past this moment?
There's an emotional vulnerability that comes to that, that a lot of folks,
most folks, will shy away from.
Because I'd rather sit in my uncomfortability over here not thinking about it,
(17:34):
saying, you know, my supervisor is X, Y, and Z, rather than opening myself up
to that potential rejection.
There is no possibility of courage without fear.
So it's about really understanding what your motivation is and what your payoff
is when you look at building that relationship out into the future.
(17:54):
It's also about avoiding some of the poor conflict coping mechanisms.
It's about not gossiping. It's about engaging with your colleagues in a productive way.
So So if somebody else says, well, you know, the supervisor did that,
it's about saying, I see your pain, I see your discomfort, how do you want me to show up for you?
(18:14):
As opposed to, well, you know, I had a problem with her too.
And again, we're in that self-feeding mechanism. So it's, how do you want to show up?
What kind of environment do you want your workplace to be?
And then taking steps to engage with it in such a manner.
Because everybody is waiting for somebody to
(18:35):
do something about the corporate culture or the organizational culture
and the problem is is when everybody's waiting for somebody to do it nobody
does it yeah yeah be the change i know it sounds flip and it sounds contrite
but what are you doing to contribute to a positive working environment i appreciate
that you brought up the vulnerability that comes with this,
(18:57):
because I think that's something that is significant.
The other layer to this in healthcare is the fact that any given leader in healthcare
is often dealing with multiple unions.
And as I mentioned, that just adds a whole different layer to it.
(19:17):
And that being said, I can see how what you're saying is a way to open the conversations
in a way that would support the unionized environment and whatnot.
What I'm curious about is, what do you do if the other person doesn't want to
engage in any way, shape or form? The old silent treatment.
(19:42):
The silent treatment is also a coping mechanism when dealing with conflict.
This is also coming from that narrative.
It's easier for me to say nothing at all than to engage.
That fawn experience, if I just put my head down, it'll all go away. It never does.
It just gets worse.
(20:03):
Sarah, this is about the emotional regulation of the other person.
And I get the question a lot of how do I make the other person, in this case, talk to me?
How do I make them say something? How do I make them care?
And the faulty idea here is that you can make another human being really do anything.
(20:23):
And I mean, we can dive into neuro-linguistic programming here,
we can do influence here, we can do all of those things.
But when it comes right down to where the cheese binds, there's only one person
on the planet that you can control.
And for those of us with teenagers, we know it's not them.
The only person you can control is yourself.
So as we're dealing with the reaction of another person, it's important to understand
(20:48):
that you can only control your response to it.
So from a silence perspective and someone who doesn't want to engage,
it's about cracking the door open regularly.
Leah, you look uncomfortable. Do you want to talk to me about that?
It seems a little weird. Is there something going on?
I get silent treatment. It's all right. I can back off, crack the door,
(21:09):
you know, a couple of days later. Hayley, I'm feeling just a little bit of awkwardness
here. Is there something we need to talk about?
And it's constantly giving that opportunity to the other individual to move
forward at their own emotional pace.
And I know that sounds really hard to deal with, but this does require you to
manage your own emotions as well.
(21:30):
Yeah. I want this resolved. I want this resolved now. And you're going to talk to me, gosh darn it.
It's not going to work. Yeah. It's going to literally push the other person
away because they're dealing with so many emotions.
And we talked about these internal narratives earlier on. We talked about what
we think needs to happen.
(21:51):
So if my family said, you know, you shut your mouth or I'll give you a reason to cry.
Welcome to Gen X. Stop your crying or I'll give you a reason to cry.
It's very common for us to then sort of sit back and say, okay,
I'm just not going to say anything because this is just going to get worse.
So it's about us dealing with that or that individual dealing with that emotion
(22:11):
to come forward and say, okay, yeah, I'm going to really talk to you.
The next time you open that door, Leah, I'm going to talk to you.
I'm really going to say something.
But it's about maintaining that relationship and making efforts and investments
into that relationship little by little, knowing that you're not going to get
that huge payoff in the moment.
(22:31):
Yeah, and I am glad you talk about this requires your own self-regulation.
Patience is not something that I have been blessed with naturally.
And so when I think about my own self in that type of situation,
I think about how it would be quite aggravating for me to have to kind of keep
(22:53):
cracking that door over and over and over.
Or the idea of, well, just talk to me.
Let's just talk and get it done with.
But I do think there's a lot to be said about what you're talking about,
really meeting the person where they're at and their own emotional pace,
(23:13):
recognizing that the person's already likely stressed and burned out and from
all of these other things that go on for them on a daily basis.
Much, sir. And when someone is stuck in that moment, I really like to kind of
dig in and we're getting into the coaching side of the things.
I really want to know what's the payoff if you push?
(23:36):
What are you hoping to achieve if you push them into something they're not ready for?
Why do you need that emotional release now versus next week?
And helping try to identify that situation and that emotional component,
which are the first two points of SMART conflict.
SMART actually started as a training and as an acronym, and S is situation,
(23:59):
and M is measured emotions.
Really understand the situation you're in, and then measure your emotions to the actual situation.
Because I can't tell you how many times I've heard folks come in and be arguing
about something, and they're not arguing about the same thing.
They're arguing about two different things.
So it's super important to really understand what's going on at the moment. Yeah.
(24:23):
You mentioned the acronym SMART conflict. I'm going to come back to that in
a moment because I'd like to hear the whole thing.
But I do want to just touch on, we mentioned earlier about the unionized environment
and again, multiple unions in one workplace.
So what does What does that then mean for engaging in conflict?
(24:49):
How do you make the most of that?
We've worked in environments, and I think the most I've ever worked with at
any given time was 11 unions.
That's a lot. So I get it. Yeah.
Each one of these is a relationship, and each relationship has a common foundation.
And that common foundation is the health, safety, and security of employees.
(25:13):
As an employer, I really want my employees to show up and feel engaged and productive
and all of the good things. And as a union, they want the same thing.
And there's been so many instances throughout my career where I see an organization
and a union in an adversarial environment.
Well, you're trying to screw my employees. Well, you're just making my life
(25:34):
difficult and costing me money.
And then there's that automatic combativeness. Yes.
The crux of the story there is we've got the same interests at heart.
So if we can build on that commonality and negotiate the different perspectives,
because a union does have a different perspective on the goal than an organization
does, if we can then negotiate forward in that instance,
(25:58):
it makes that relationship a little bit easier.
If you are in a situation where the union and the organization are in an adversarial
environment or relationship, it becomes very difficult to get anything done.
You are investing so much into holding the line and taking the hill and digging the trenches.
And there's so much time and effort and money involved in that,
(26:23):
that you really got to take a look at the payoff.
What's the risk of becoming a collaborative relationship with your union partners?
You know, because they're not I'm going anywhere.
And same for the unions. What's the payoff for being adversarial when you're
pushing so much into these adversarial environments and relationships and discussions?
(26:46):
And I respect unions a great deal. They're very, very helpful when conflicts
arise because a lot of us need that help, you know, calling in that shop steward
to have that negotiation because I don't have the conflict language to do it on my own.
You know, there's a lot of benefits here on both sides.
So that's my take on it. And I'm going to stop. I talk forever.
Just go on and on. I think there's something so interesting about the idea of
(27:09):
collaborative conflict.
And what comes up for me is during COVID, what we saw was multiple organizations coming together,
for the support of employees and patients during COVID.
So we started to see the unions work with the professional associations,
(27:33):
which then worked with government, which then worked with the healthcare organizations
and systems in a way that I don't know if I've seen that before.
Certainly not in my lifetime, I don't believe.
And it's really interesting in that it,
highlighted the power of being able to get things done. Like we needed to,
(27:56):
to use the term, think out of side the box.
We needed to do things differently in a very short amount of time.
Healthcare is famous for moving very slowly during any other instance, but we saw during COVID,
all of these organizations coming together and all of these groups coming together
(28:17):
other to get stuff done and get it done in a way that was very quick,
that hadn't been done before.
Now that COVID has settled somewhat, we're not seeing that collaboration any
longer or not to the same degree.
And so I wonder, how do you sustain that collaboration?
(28:42):
So we're thinking motivation here. What is the intrinsic motivation of each
organization that had to come together under COVID to continue to collaborate in such a manner?
When the pressure comes off, or the intrinsic motivation be,
you know, a cute COVID time here.
When that pressure comes off, there's less of that motivation available.
(29:06):
So how do we build that motivation back in without it being a public health
crisis? I was trying to build that motivation back in for all these organizations
to cross the silos, to continue talking.
So where is that motivation? Who's carrying the banner?
And how are these relationships continuing to be fostered?
(29:31):
Because I know from a business perspective, because I was working throughout
COVID in national security endeavors.
Once COVID stopped, we all kind of put down the backpack and went,
oh, I say stopped. I know it's not stopped.
Once the pressure came off. Yep.
Everybody just wanted to put down the bags and, okay, back to business as normal.
(29:52):
And there was a huge talk about what is normal now? What is business as normal or as usual?
And everybody went back to, okay, I think business as normal or as usual looks
like this and it looks like that.
And then we stopped having that main focal point.
So where is the motivation for each of these organizations?
(30:12):
Is it simply crisis management? We're just waiting for the next thing to pop up.
Please no more. I'm going to pop up, which a lot of organizations do,
you know, put out the fire, put out the fire, put out the fire,
put out the fire versus how are we moving forward together so that maybe the
fire doesn't flare up. Yeah.
That's so interesting. And I want to bring in the SMART conflict.
(30:36):
And so tell us about the acronym. Tell us about what that means.
Because I think from my understanding of it, it is actually also very linked
to motivation as well. Well, very much so.
So when we take a look at SMART conflict as an acronym, it starts with the S
(30:57):
and knowing the situation.
And I know that sounds really silly. Really know what you're in conflict about.
I work with estate matters where family members are coming together and are
in conflict over how the estate should be managed.
And it's surprising how very often that folks don't actually know what they're
upset about. They want grandma's house, but, well, grandma loved you more and
(31:17):
this house means that she actually loved me too.
You know, it becomes much more profound other than just the dollar value.
So finding out that situation, really digging down, and I come from a quality
background, so I really love the five whys.
Well, I'm upset that I'm not getting grandma's house. Why?
Because, you know, Sally got everything. Well, why does that upset you?
(31:41):
You know, and really digging down. And in the handout, and I think it's going
to be in the show notes, in the handout, I really dig into the five whys.
So you can see that in an infographic.
So situation is super important. And we talked about the next one,
which is M, which is a measured emotional response.
It's about understanding your own emotions and what you're hoping to get out of the moment.
(32:02):
Looking at those social media accounts where, you know, I'm going to go start
a conflict with my partner because I'm bored. I just want to rip my own hair out.
It's not a good reason to start a conflict. A stands for agenda.
Not the nefarious underhanded secret coined, but a mending agenda.
(32:23):
A lot of times when folks get into conflict, they don't know what they want out of it.
We get into a conflict and we argue, argue, argue, argue, back and forth,
trying to negotiate, but neither one of us really knows where we want to end up.
Interesting. So having that mending agenda and knowing in the ballpark of where
you want to go, you know, I really want to have a good relationship with you
(32:44):
and I don't want to have to work, three shifts of overtime this week.
At least you have an idea of where that negotiation is going.
You know, I can't do three, but maybe I'll do one and a half if we can split that with someone else.
You know, understand where your boundaries are. Know what that agenda needs to be.
R is the foundation of it all. Understand the relationship.
(33:06):
What does this look like moving forward? Be relationship focused when you get into conflict.
And T sounds so simple. It is the time and place of the conflict matters.
Sort of like when you negotiate for a raise, never catch your boss as they're
running down the hallway trying to get to a client meeting.
(33:26):
Not a good time to ask for a raise. Same thing in a conflict.
I think it was the Gottmans who said, I think more marriages have ended from
the advice of never go to bed angry than it's actually saved.
Because when you're tired and you're cranky and you're emotionally drained,
you are not going to have a good conflict.
You're just not. You don't have the emotional capacity to do it.
(33:49):
So pick the right time and place for a conflict, even in the workplace.
At the end of your shift on a Friday, just before you go home,
or whatever your Friday happens to be, just before you go home is not a really
good time to open up that conflict saying, I got to catch my train in about
five minutes, but I really want to talk to you about that.
It's not setting yourself up or the other person up for
(34:10):
success so yeah that's smart what occurs
to me about the acronym and all the elements that
go into the acronym is the intentionality about
being really intentional about how you respond to conflict how you yeah i think
(34:32):
the word is response that's that comes to mind and i think about what
you were saying about the saying about never go to bed angry and not having
the emotional capacity at that point in time to deal with it.
And I think about the same, you know, in the workplace about firing off an email
in response to something else without taking the time to think about it.
(34:57):
And the advice I was given a long time ago, which I do try and adhere to,
not always successfully, but I try, is wait 24 hours.
If something feels off to me, to actually take time to consider what it means
to me, how I'm responding,
and what do I want to send back to that person or have what that conversation
(35:23):
should be like as opposed to having it in the moment of emotions.
Emails always make the hairs on the back of my neck stand up.
When we're looking at the context of a conflict or a highly emotional conversation,
the best way to do it, and I know a lot of people are going to send me nasty
(35:45):
messages, the best way to do it is face-to-face.
Yeah. When you're face-to-face with another person, you get tone of voice,
you get eye contact, text, you get body messaging, you get body language,
you get it all sort of as a complete package,
which can help clarify any misunderstandings before they happen.
(36:07):
The challenge we end up getting when we have an email is the tone and the form
that it's read in is the frame of mind of the reader.
It is not the frame of mind of the writer.
And we've all gotten those texts from our family and it seems really short.
(36:29):
It's like, oh my gosh, are they mad at me?
No, they are running down the street trying to catch a bus and they're typing with one hand.
They're not mad at all. But we end up thinking they're mad. We just lose so much when we do an email.
So be very, very careful if engaging in a conflict in writing.
If it's a long distance one, try on Zoom, because at least then you can get some eye contact.
(36:51):
You can get the tonality of voice and the inflection and the cadence where you're
just going to not get it when you write it at all.
It's perfect sense. And I think one of the reasons why people often default
to email is it's a little less scary to write an email.
For all of the reasons why you said it's better to have that conversation face to face.
(37:17):
So I think this ties back to what you were saying before about the vulnerability
and the courage that it takes to actually sit in front of someone and have that dialogue.
Very much so. I mean, if we look at the neuroscience of it, human beings are social creatures.
We thrive in conjunction with one And when there's friction or conflict or anything
(37:42):
out of sorts, particularly with people we hang around with a lot,
like spending at least 40 hours a week, if not very much more, with our co-workers,
being out of step, being outside of that social construct can be devastating.
And I mean, all you've got to do is read any of the studies on bullying or that
kind of thing to see how devastating it can be to an individual to be left outside of a social circle.
(38:06):
So our brain takes this as a
threat if i'm rejected from the
social circle because of this conflict this
you know go back 10 000 years i could die i'm gonna be out in the wilderness
all by myself yeah in modern life it's it's very unlikely we're gonna get eaten
(38:26):
by a bear for kicked out of the social circle yeah the the brain still sees
it as a huge huge threat which is why sometimes we do default.
A lot of times we do default to that written word so that we don't have to face that rejection head on.
But you also don't get the opportunity to invest in the relationship and strengthen the bond.
(38:48):
You don't have the opportunity to creatively look at a solution through digital
words, words that can so easily be deleted and misinterpreted towards one another.
So you're right, it's less scary, but you're also losing the opportunity to
(39:09):
invest in that relationship. changes.
I really like what you're saying about investing in that relationship and that
even in the midst of conflict, you can and should invest in that relationship.
And I think that really ties in with the whole idea of keep cracking that door,
(39:31):
keep working at it, even when it maybe feels like Like it's going nowhere,
that the effort that you're putting in is going to be worth it in the end.
So one of the things I hear all the time, especially from my coaching clients,
is around feedback and conflict and often how feedback can be perceived as a
(40:00):
threat or something detrimental as opposed to receiving it for what the intention is,
is to give feedback so that you can grow in your development, change your practice,
maybe better your work, all of that.
What would you say to that? Been there.
(40:22):
So this goes back to that threat. I'm in a social situation.
Typically, feedback is coming from someone who's on a hierarchy higher than us.
So it's coming from the head nurse or it's coming from a physician or it's coming
from the floor supervisor Or it's usually coming from someone higher up in the
hierarchy, which immediately adds stress.
(40:43):
We're now being critiqued in the social circle.
So there's fear. this also brings us back
to the idea that you can control and yes
you can you can control your reaction you also have autonomy over what you can
take on just because i as your supervisor says x y and z doesn't mean you have
(41:05):
to do x y and z you don't like y but you like x and you like z Z, let's do X and Z.
You have that ability to take on what you need to take on so that you can move forward.
But this does require intentionality on your part.
What are your professional goals? What does this look like next month?
(41:27):
What does this look like in six months? What does this look like in a year?
If I don't take on why, how does that affect my progression in what I want to do? Yeah.
So the economy, when it comes to feedback, and I think a lot of us really forget
about that, that just because my superior says it's so doesn't necessarily make it so.
(41:50):
With that said, if we flip the coin, I love the fact that you brought intent into it.
As a leader, I really need to articulate what my intention is when I'm giving feedback.
I need to tell you that I really love working with you and I think this would
(42:11):
make you a better professional. So here's my two cents.
I need to tell you why I'm giving you feedback and not waiting for the annual
performance review because that's a little forced. Yeah. Yes.
It also has to be specific. I can't say I really don't like the way you deal with people.
That that's amorphous what am i supposed to do with
(42:33):
that do i just change my entire humanity what do i do
it's not specific enough for me to do
anything with so as a leader i need to come in with intent and specificity during
the surgery i didn't like the way you did one two and three we need to fix this
for the next time we work together we also have to define impact so So intention,
(42:54):
specificity, and impact.
Because we did one, two, and three during the surgery, A, B,
and C happened. So we really can't have this happen again.
Yeah. It really puts things into context.
So how you deliver feedback as a leader can also take some of that fright and
that fear and that resistance out of it.
(43:15):
So really look at how you're delivering that feedback and make sure you're intentional,
specific, and identifying the impact.
I think there's a lot to be said around the identifying the impact piece.
And the reality with healthcare is that sometimes feedback is pretty heavy in
(43:36):
that somebody maybe didn't follow a policy, or, you know, there's been some sort of error.
And healthcare has come a long way with looking at errors from a different perspective
that used to be very punitive and whatnot.
They're starting to think about how else can we view errors and from a systems
(43:57):
perspective, how did that error actually occur?
But I think the history of healthcare and how it has dealt with issues like
that still feeds into fear of feedback. back.
And so when I think about the impact, I mean, impact is significant.
(44:18):
It could be the death of someone.
Now, that's a very extreme circumstance, but we all know what's happened.
So when you are giving feedback to someone, when the stakes are really high.
What else do you need to be thinking about besides your intention and the impact?
(44:40):
What else would be helpful in that situation?
You're speaking my quality language. I love this. I've been in a lot of environments
and had a lot of clients where feedback is punitive.
X has happened and therefore it's Leah's fault and we're going to punish Leah
because if we punish Leah, everything will be fine again. And that is never the case.
Yes, I said never. That was a definitive. That is never the case.
(45:02):
Yeah. There's always structure that's going on around that.
So I love the fact that you brought process into this.
What were the steps that led up to this error that could potentially be changed
so that this error never happens again?
Are we looking at equipment? Are we looking at availability of resources?
Are we looking at scheduling?
(45:22):
Are we looking at timelines? And particularly when we start getting into the
human resource side of things, when we're getting into the people side of things,
it's very hard to say, you are a robot, you will do this, you will do one,
two, and three every single time, and you will do it perfectly.
It's never, ever going to happen.
So, there's a humanity that we have to bring to this.
(45:43):
If my parent has just died, I'm more likely to make a mistake.
It's that humanity piece, no matter what process pieces are in there,
no matter how many checks and balances we have, no matter how much resource we've put into it.
So we really do have to look at that humanity.
We have to look at that relationship.
(46:05):
And what are we doing? Coming from a corporate environment, it's like,
you know, never miss a day's work. Always come in no matter what.
And I cannot tell you how many times I myself or other people have shown up
and they've been knocking on death's door. They really should be going to the ER.
And there's, I'm going to go into that client meeting anyway.
What is the the challenge here
(46:28):
is this person is not performing optimally they never
will they can barely see straight you know
how are we setting up our relationships
for success yes you check the box yes you
were here congratulations but how are we
supporting you show up showing up as the best version of yourself so that humanity
really needs to come in that's a very powerful And I think the more we can focus
(46:54):
on humanity in healthcare and every other business industry that is out there,
the more we can do our best work and be fulfilled in the work that we are doing.
We need to remember the humanity.
So Kat, where can people find your book? You can get my book on Amazon or you
(47:17):
can hit me up on my website at www.smartconflictbook.com and that'll give you
all the deets on the book and all the other ways you can get personally in contact
with me if you have any questions. Wonderful.
Please do check it out and we all need support with conflict. That's the reality.
And thank you so much, Kat, for being here and for sharing your thoughts.
(47:41):
It's been really insightful for me and I hope for others as well.
And I've definitely learned a lot.
Absolute pleasure. Thank you so, so much for having me, Leah.
Thanks so much for joining us today at Central Line Leadership in Healthcare.
Also, if you liked what you heard, please head on over to Apple Podcasts to
leave us a review. Be sure to subscribe so that you never miss an episode.
(48:03):
Also, if you'd like to learn more about our host, Leah Wuchek,
check out talltreesleadership.com.
Music.
(00:07):
Welcome to Central Line, Leadership in Healthcare, the show that shares stories,
experiences, and advice from notable and innovative leaders in healthcare.
Leading in healthcare is incredibly challenging, so if you are looking to learn
firsthand from nurses, physicians, administrators, and other healthcare professionals
in leadership and management roles, this is the podcast for you.
(00:31):
Hosted by Leah Wuchek, leadership development expert, executive coach,
healthcare professional, and president and co-founder of Tall Trees Leadership.
We talk with today's successful healthcare leaders on how they get to where
they are, lessons learned along
the way, and what it takes to thrive as a successful leader in healthcare.
(00:52):
Let's get started with your host, Leah Wuchick.
Kat Newport is a passionate conflict educator and coach with a knack for helping
leaders and teams navigate tough situations.
Observations with over 30 years of corporate
leadership experience in organizational development and
quality management Kat brings a wealth of knowledge and a personal touch to
(01:15):
her coaching Kat offers engaging workshops master classes and personalized training
to help you handle conflict boost emotional intelligence and build a culture
of trust she's also the author of Smart Conflict,
where she shares practical tips for turning disputes into opportunities for growth.
(01:35):
Active in the coaching community and a board member of the International Coaching
Federation, Calgary Charter Chapter, and supports training and programs as a
chair in the Calgary section of the American Society for Quality.
Kat is dedicated to empowering professionals to thrive.
Join her for insightful sessions that transform challenges into successes.
(01:58):
Music.
Good morning, Kat. How are you? I'm good, Leah. I'm good. How are you?
I'm doing great. Welcome to Central Line Leadership in Healthcare.
(02:21):
I'm excited to have you here.
And pick your brain about having a smart conflict.
Before we dive into the details, what I'm curious about is you and your background
and what Kat is all about.
So if you want to just Just share with everyone your journey to this point. That would be great.
(02:44):
My, there's a whole show in its own, eh? Yeah, right.
Where did I come from? Where am I going? In a nutshell, I bring conflict into
your workplace, converting it, of course, into a catalyst for positive growth and change.
And I have extensive experience in leadership.
I've been working at a national director level for many, many, many decades.
(03:08):
That makes me feel so old.
Working in organizational development and quality controls.
So I provide tools and strategies necessary for effective dispute management
in the workplace, providing effective feedback, and managing relationships and psychological safety.
So in a nutshell, that's it.
(03:28):
Beautiful. And I also do know that you're a coach as well. Well,
I am. I am a coach. I am an author.
Yeah, I teach stretch classes. So yeah, whole mind, body, spirit kind of thing going on over here.
Yeah, I love it. And maybe we'll start with the book because I know this was
a really recent achievement for you and it's a massive achievement.
(03:52):
So tell us a little bit about the book.
So I stepped away from corporate leadership just over a year ago now and said,
what am I going to do with my time?
Because I'm one of those people who's, you know, if I'm not going Mach 5 with
my hair on fire, I feel kind of bored.
One of those folks. So when I was working in corporate, one of the biggest organizational
(04:16):
development trainings for managers and leaders that kept coming up when I was
managing that was, how do I manage conflict?
What do I say? How do I make the other person insert blank?
How do I make them do whatever I want them to do? So when I sat down with it,
I'm like, okay, what is this book going to be about? Because there's always
been a dream to write that book.
(04:37):
And in the span of 12 months, it went from conceptualization to writing to publish,
and it's now available on Amazon.
So yeah. Yeah, it's very exciting. And I know it's no small feat to put together
a book from concept to publish.
And the fact that you did it in 12 months really blows my mind because I do
(05:01):
know it's quite a long process.
So with conflict, I mean, I know it's something that I don't think any one of us enjoys.
I think many of us, many of us, and maybe I'm making a big assumption there,
many of us really try and shy away from conflict.
(05:23):
I'm curious to hear your perspective on conflict. My perspective on conflict,
for me, conflict is creativity.
I'm a creative person. And for those of you who are watching, you can see the video.
I'm a creative kind of person. I'm an artist. I enjoy being out there,
you know, that kind of thing.
And the thing is, is we're always told to think outside the box.
(05:44):
I hear this in corporate all the time. You should think outside the box.
But if you're never in conflict, which is defined as a difference of perspective
with another person, if you're looking for wartime conflict,
that's outside my scope.
Conflict is just a difference of perspective. And if you're never entertaining
someone else's perspective,
(06:06):
it's really hard to think outside the box because the only thing you're thinking
in is your own personal perspective and judgments and narrative.
So conflict is a catalyst and a trigger for creativity and innovation in the
workplace when handled in a healthy kind of way.
I would assume the key is the healthy way and that when it's not handled in
(06:33):
that healthy way, the opposite may be true.
Very much so. The thing with conflict is we've been learning how to manage conflict
since the very moment we drew breath in our families, in our relationships, in our friendships.
We've been getting these narratives. If we've never sat down and really thought
(06:53):
about conflict or never sat down and got trained on how to manage conflict in
a healthy way, we have some habits.
And if you've been privileged enough to get some habits that are really,
really helpful and kind of healthy, you're going to handle conflict in a more positive way.
If your narratives have been a little bit darker, a little bit less healthy,
(07:14):
and your habits are a little bit less healthy,
you lapse into things like conflict avoidance and emotional outbursts and,
you know, it's the silent treatment and gossip in a workplace or gossip at home,
depending on your family, these kinds of things.
So if you're not conscious about how you look at conflict and how you personally
(07:36):
interact with conflict, yeah, it can definitely be unhealthy.
And I think that's one of the unique things about the book, Smart Conflict,
is I'm looking at it through the lens of what do you as an individual bring
to the table Well, in the workplace,
what are you carrying in that backpack that's showing up and might not be supporting
your workplace relationships and your professional development? Hmm.
(08:00):
It's interesting because obviously in healthcare, like many different industries,
conflict is prevalent on a day-to-day basis.
What I find with the people I talk with in healthcare, clients,
colleagues, friends, from my own experience, is that conflict in healthcare can be,
(08:24):
more loaded because of the potential impact down the line, particularly on the
well-being of patients and clients.
So yeah, what are your thoughts on that? Not a huge amount of respect coming right out of the gate.
When you're working in healthcare, you're seeing folks on some of the worst days of their lives.
(08:46):
And you're dealing with that emotional load and dealing with that emotional
work that goes along with that. So it just sort of compounds everything.
As you look forward into, oh my gosh, how does this affect the level of care?
How does this affect how we work together across silos? How does this affect all of these things?
It becomes even more important to understand what you're bringing to the table
(09:09):
and then really looking at the three phases of conflict.
When I talk to folks about conflict, what usually happens is we talk about the
flashpoint, the point where, you know, you and I have a disagreement,
we have a difference of perspective,
and we have to deal with each other, and this is what we want to talk about, is this moment in time.
(09:30):
That's the middle step. So we skipped over the first step. We're into the middle step.
And most people completely forget about the third step. So we got to look at that mitigation.
How are you managing your day-to-day relationships when the pressure is not
on, when the flash is not there, that will reduce the heat, that conflict,
(09:52):
or potentially sidestep the conflict altogether? together.
After the conflict, we really got to look at restoration. How are you restoring
equilibrium in your relationships?
And I keep talking about relationships, but when you're at work,
you have relationships with every other person you have contact with,
from the person who gave you coffee this morning at the cafe downstairs to your
(10:16):
colleague working with you on the floor.
These are all relationships of differing size, differing scope, and differing depth.
So when I say relationships, I'm not referring to this is my partner and we
have kids together. I'm referring to just generalized relationships.
So when we look at the flashpoint, we have to look at what happens after.
(10:38):
How do we soothe hurt feelings?
How do we move forward from the flashpoint now that we've agreed this is what we're going to do?
How do we address this if something like this comes up in the future,
how do I make you feel safe with me again?
And how do I make you feel safe? And how do I feel safe as we move forward together?
(10:59):
Because we're going to be on shift together again, at some point,
we're going to have to work together again at some point.
And if we're at odds, that might pose a problem.
And I think, you know, what you said was really insightful. And what comes up
for me is how close a lot of healthcare workers are in their relationships and
(11:24):
how closely they need to work together.
So that when there is a breakdown of that relationship, the effects are significant.
For many people in healthcare, it's not like they can go like retreat to their
office and never see that person ever again, right?
They need to work with them on a daily basis.
And as you know, one of the challenges that I would say the biggest challenge
(11:49):
in health care right now is retention and recruitment.
There is a very real workforce crisis facing Canadian health care,
but worldwide health care as well.
And so I'm curious how we can use that creative process within healthy conflict
as a tool for retention. Or is that possible?
(12:14):
It's definitely possible. I mean, if you look at the statistics,
and a lot of them are coming out of the States, just because of the sheer volume
of folks down there compared to up here in the Great White North,
90% of people are going to have a workplace conflict.
And one out of 20 people are going to be eliminated from their role because
of toxic behavior. That's 5% of your workforce.
(12:37):
That's huge. Yeah. Particularly when you're facing a hiring crunch,
when you're facing retention and attrition challenges, losing 5% because of
that toxic behavior is a little bit too much.
Too much in general, but a little bit too much, particularly when you're facing the crunch.
So what a lot of folks are saying is that their frontline managers aren't dealing
(13:01):
with conflicts proactively and positively.
So it's about getting on the same page with the rest of of the team,
it's about staying on the same page. It's about not shying away.
And it's about having the same language around conflict.
It's one of the reasons why I kind of started our conversation with this is
how I define conflict. So we're talking about the same thing.
(13:23):
I've been chatting with other folks, with other clients going,
you know, I like your definition of conflict, but where's the hostility?
Conflict doesn't always have hostility.
In extreme cases, is it certainly does, but it doesn't always have hostility.
So it's really about coming onto that same page, making sure staff feels supported,
(13:45):
making sure we have that relationship building and moving through all phases, the mitigation,
the resolution, and the restoration so that people feel secure enough,
people feel empowered enough to stay,
particularly in a healthcare environment where you do have a lot of emotional
labor, that psychological safety becomes incredibly important.
(14:10):
You mentioned earlier about the three phases, and you said the one that gets
missed the most between mitigation, resolution, and restoration is restoration.
Why is that?
After the flashpoint of a conflict, a lot of folks are like,
oh, thank goodness it's over.
And they never want to talk about it again. Yeah.
(14:34):
And we're left with this vacuum of, yes, we've had it. Yes, we survived this conflict.
But what do we do now? So you're walking down the hallway and you see the other
person coming towards you. You're going, what's going to happen now?
Are we going to have this tension? Are we going to have this conflict? like
continue because we now have you
(14:54):
know bad blood or whatever yeah so trying
to get away from that emotion of i
feel uncomfort i feel discomfort in this relationship we have a tendency to
try and forget about the relationship to bring some emotional relief unfortunately
what happens there is you get emotional relief in the short term but the next
(15:16):
time you see the person you have that emotional discomfort again.
And then this can lead to other dynamics in the workplace. For example, gossip.
Because I feel uncomfortable because we've had a conflict, I'm going to talk
to a closer friend saying, gee, you know, Sally, I'm really uncomfortable with her.
You know, she did these things and, you know, I'm not really happy.
(15:36):
And I get emotional relief from that.
But I'm also spreading gossip. And now my friend thinks Sally's a bit odd because,
you know, Now Sally and I had a thing, and now we have this self-feeding environment
of unhealthy conflict coping mechanisms, which gossip is one. Yeah.
And I would say gossip is a significant challenge within many healthcare environments.
(16:02):
And it's interesting what you're saying around that gossip can be that emotional
release and an unhealthy coping technique.
So how do you address the restoration phase? What do you need to do?
Oh, looking at that relationship, thinking about, okay, I've had a conflict
(16:27):
with my floor supervisor.
I know I'm going to have to come back in tomorrow. I know this.
It's on the schedule. I know I have to come back in and I have to face this individual.
I really need to think about what I want that relationship with my floor supervisor to look like.
And a lot of people don't project forward.
Forward they look at the moment and they
(16:49):
don't say how am i going to survive this tomorrow next
week next month next year so it's
really being deliberate about how you want
to show up and how you want that relationship to look as you move forward and
then opening a discussion about it it takes a lot of courage to sit down and
(17:10):
say you know floor supervisor i really want us to get along as we move forward.
How does this look for you and how can we work together to get past this moment?
There's an emotional vulnerability that comes to that, that a lot of folks,
most folks, will shy away from.
Because I'd rather sit in my uncomfortability over here not thinking about it,
(17:34):
saying, you know, my supervisor is X, Y, and Z, rather than opening myself up
to that potential rejection.
There is no possibility of courage without fear.
So it's about really understanding what your motivation is and what your payoff
is when you look at building that relationship out into the future.
(17:54):
It's also about avoiding some of the poor conflict coping mechanisms.
It's about not gossiping. It's about engaging with your colleagues in a productive way.
So So if somebody else says, well, you know, the supervisor did that,
it's about saying, I see your pain, I see your discomfort, how do you want me to show up for you?
(18:14):
As opposed to, well, you know, I had a problem with her too.
And again, we're in that self-feeding mechanism. So it's, how do you want to show up?
What kind of environment do you want your workplace to be?
And then taking steps to engage with it in such a manner.
Because everybody is waiting for somebody to
(18:35):
do something about the corporate culture or the organizational culture
and the problem is is when everybody's waiting for somebody to do it nobody
does it yeah yeah be the change i know it sounds flip and it sounds contrite
but what are you doing to contribute to a positive working environment i appreciate
that you brought up the vulnerability that comes with this,
(18:57):
because I think that's something that is significant.
The other layer to this in healthcare is the fact that any given leader in healthcare
is often dealing with multiple unions.
And as I mentioned, that just adds a whole different layer to it.
(19:17):
And that being said, I can see how what you're saying is a way to open the conversations
in a way that would support the unionized environment and whatnot.
What I'm curious about is, what do you do if the other person doesn't want to
engage in any way, shape or form? The old silent treatment.
(19:42):
The silent treatment is also a coping mechanism when dealing with conflict.
This is also coming from that narrative.
It's easier for me to say nothing at all than to engage.
That fawn experience, if I just put my head down, it'll all go away. It never does.
It just gets worse.
(20:03):
Sarah, this is about the emotional regulation of the other person.
And I get the question a lot of how do I make the other person, in this case, talk to me?
How do I make them say something? How do I make them care?
And the faulty idea here is that you can make another human being really do anything.
(20:23):
And I mean, we can dive into neuro-linguistic programming here,
we can do influence here, we can do all of those things.
But when it comes right down to where the cheese binds, there's only one person
on the planet that you can control.
And for those of us with teenagers, we know it's not them.
The only person you can control is yourself.
So as we're dealing with the reaction of another person, it's important to understand
(20:48):
that you can only control your response to it.
So from a silence perspective and someone who doesn't want to engage,
it's about cracking the door open regularly.
Leah, you look uncomfortable. Do you want to talk to me about that?
It seems a little weird. Is there something going on?
I get silent treatment. It's all right. I can back off, crack the door,
(21:09):
you know, a couple of days later. Hayley, I'm feeling just a little bit of awkwardness
here. Is there something we need to talk about?
And it's constantly giving that opportunity to the other individual to move
forward at their own emotional pace.
And I know that sounds really hard to deal with, but this does require you to
manage your own emotions as well.
(21:30):
Yeah. I want this resolved. I want this resolved now. And you're going to talk to me, gosh darn it.
It's not going to work. Yeah. It's going to literally push the other person
away because they're dealing with so many emotions.
And we talked about these internal narratives earlier on. We talked about what
we think needs to happen.
(21:51):
So if my family said, you know, you shut your mouth or I'll give you a reason to cry.
Welcome to Gen X. Stop your crying or I'll give you a reason to cry.
It's very common for us to then sort of sit back and say, okay,
I'm just not going to say anything because this is just going to get worse.
So it's about us dealing with that or that individual dealing with that emotion
(22:11):
to come forward and say, okay, yeah, I'm going to really talk to you.
The next time you open that door, Leah, I'm going to talk to you.
I'm really going to say something.
But it's about maintaining that relationship and making efforts and investments
into that relationship little by little, knowing that you're not going to get
that huge payoff in the moment.
(22:31):
Yeah, and I am glad you talk about this requires your own self-regulation.
Patience is not something that I have been blessed with naturally.
And so when I think about my own self in that type of situation,
I think about how it would be quite aggravating for me to have to kind of keep
(22:53):
cracking that door over and over and over.
Or the idea of, well, just talk to me.
Let's just talk and get it done with.
But I do think there's a lot to be said about what you're talking about,
really meeting the person where they're at and their own emotional pace,
(23:13):
recognizing that the person's already likely stressed and burned out and from
all of these other things that go on for them on a daily basis.
Much, sir. And when someone is stuck in that moment, I really like to kind of
dig in and we're getting into the coaching side of the things.
I really want to know what's the payoff if you push?
(23:36):
What are you hoping to achieve if you push them into something they're not ready for?
Why do you need that emotional release now versus next week?
And helping try to identify that situation and that emotional component,
which are the first two points of SMART conflict.
SMART actually started as a training and as an acronym, and S is situation,
(23:59):
and M is measured emotions.
Really understand the situation you're in, and then measure your emotions to the actual situation.
Because I can't tell you how many times I've heard folks come in and be arguing
about something, and they're not arguing about the same thing.
They're arguing about two different things.
So it's super important to really understand what's going on at the moment. Yeah.
(24:23):
You mentioned the acronym SMART conflict. I'm going to come back to that in
a moment because I'd like to hear the whole thing.
But I do want to just touch on, we mentioned earlier about the unionized environment
and again, multiple unions in one workplace.
So what does What does that then mean for engaging in conflict?
(24:49):
How do you make the most of that?
We've worked in environments, and I think the most I've ever worked with at
any given time was 11 unions.
That's a lot. So I get it. Yeah.
Each one of these is a relationship, and each relationship has a common foundation.
And that common foundation is the health, safety, and security of employees.
(25:13):
As an employer, I really want my employees to show up and feel engaged and productive
and all of the good things. And as a union, they want the same thing.
And there's been so many instances throughout my career where I see an organization
and a union in an adversarial environment.
Well, you're trying to screw my employees. Well, you're just making my life
(25:34):
difficult and costing me money.
And then there's that automatic combativeness. Yes.
The crux of the story there is we've got the same interests at heart.
So if we can build on that commonality and negotiate the different perspectives,
because a union does have a different perspective on the goal than an organization
does, if we can then negotiate forward in that instance,
(25:58):
it makes that relationship a little bit easier.
If you are in a situation where the union and the organization are in an adversarial
environment or relationship, it becomes very difficult to get anything done.
You are investing so much into holding the line and taking the hill and digging the trenches.
And there's so much time and effort and money involved in that,
(26:23):
that you really got to take a look at the payoff.
What's the risk of becoming a collaborative relationship with your union partners?
You know, because they're not I'm going anywhere.
And same for the unions. What's the payoff for being adversarial when you're
pushing so much into these adversarial environments and relationships and discussions?
(26:46):
And I respect unions a great deal. They're very, very helpful when conflicts
arise because a lot of us need that help, you know, calling in that shop steward
to have that negotiation because I don't have the conflict language to do it on my own.
You know, there's a lot of benefits here on both sides.
So that's my take on it. And I'm going to stop. I talk forever.
Just go on and on. I think there's something so interesting about the idea of
(27:09):
collaborative conflict.
And what comes up for me is during COVID, what we saw was multiple organizations coming together,
for the support of employees and patients during COVID.
So we started to see the unions work with the professional associations,
(27:33):
which then worked with government, which then worked with the healthcare organizations
and systems in a way that I don't know if I've seen that before.
Certainly not in my lifetime, I don't believe.
And it's really interesting in that it,
highlighted the power of being able to get things done. Like we needed to,
(27:56):
to use the term, think out of side the box.
We needed to do things differently in a very short amount of time.
Healthcare is famous for moving very slowly during any other instance, but we saw during COVID,
all of these organizations coming together and all of these groups coming together
(28:17):
other to get stuff done and get it done in a way that was very quick,
that hadn't been done before.
Now that COVID has settled somewhat, we're not seeing that collaboration any
longer or not to the same degree.
And so I wonder, how do you sustain that collaboration?
(28:42):
So we're thinking motivation here. What is the intrinsic motivation of each
organization that had to come together under COVID to continue to collaborate in such a manner?
When the pressure comes off, or the intrinsic motivation be,
you know, a cute COVID time here.
When that pressure comes off, there's less of that motivation available.
(29:06):
So how do we build that motivation back in without it being a public health
crisis? I was trying to build that motivation back in for all these organizations
to cross the silos, to continue talking.
So where is that motivation? Who's carrying the banner?
And how are these relationships continuing to be fostered?
(29:31):
Because I know from a business perspective, because I was working throughout
COVID in national security endeavors.
Once COVID stopped, we all kind of put down the backpack and went,
oh, I say stopped. I know it's not stopped.
Once the pressure came off. Yep.
Everybody just wanted to put down the bags and, okay, back to business as normal.
(29:52):
And there was a huge talk about what is normal now? What is business as normal or as usual?
And everybody went back to, okay, I think business as normal or as usual looks
like this and it looks like that.
And then we stopped having that main focal point.
So where is the motivation for each of these organizations?
(30:12):
Is it simply crisis management? We're just waiting for the next thing to pop up.
Please no more. I'm going to pop up, which a lot of organizations do,
you know, put out the fire, put out the fire, put out the fire,
put out the fire versus how are we moving forward together so that maybe the
fire doesn't flare up. Yeah.
That's so interesting. And I want to bring in the SMART conflict.
(30:36):
And so tell us about the acronym. Tell us about what that means.
Because I think from my understanding of it, it is actually also very linked
to motivation as well. Well, very much so.
So when we take a look at SMART conflict as an acronym, it starts with the S
(30:57):
and knowing the situation.
And I know that sounds really silly. Really know what you're in conflict about.
I work with estate matters where family members are coming together and are
in conflict over how the estate should be managed.
And it's surprising how very often that folks don't actually know what they're
upset about. They want grandma's house, but, well, grandma loved you more and
(31:17):
this house means that she actually loved me too.
You know, it becomes much more profound other than just the dollar value.
So finding out that situation, really digging down, and I come from a quality
background, so I really love the five whys.
Well, I'm upset that I'm not getting grandma's house. Why?
Because, you know, Sally got everything. Well, why does that upset you?
(31:41):
You know, and really digging down. And in the handout, and I think it's going
to be in the show notes, in the handout, I really dig into the five whys.
So you can see that in an infographic.
So situation is super important. And we talked about the next one,
which is M, which is a measured emotional response.
It's about understanding your own emotions and what you're hoping to get out of the moment.
(32:02):
Looking at those social media accounts where, you know, I'm going to go start
a conflict with my partner because I'm bored. I just want to rip my own hair out.
It's not a good reason to start a conflict. A stands for agenda.
Not the nefarious underhanded secret coined, but a mending agenda.
(32:23):
A lot of times when folks get into conflict, they don't know what they want out of it.
We get into a conflict and we argue, argue, argue, argue, back and forth,
trying to negotiate, but neither one of us really knows where we want to end up.
Interesting. So having that mending agenda and knowing in the ballpark of where
you want to go, you know, I really want to have a good relationship with you
(32:44):
and I don't want to have to work, three shifts of overtime this week.
At least you have an idea of where that negotiation is going.
You know, I can't do three, but maybe I'll do one and a half if we can split that with someone else.
You know, understand where your boundaries are. Know what that agenda needs to be.
R is the foundation of it all. Understand the relationship.
(33:06):
What does this look like moving forward? Be relationship focused when you get into conflict.
And T sounds so simple. It is the time and place of the conflict matters.
Sort of like when you negotiate for a raise, never catch your boss as they're
running down the hallway trying to get to a client meeting.
(33:26):
Not a good time to ask for a raise. Same thing in a conflict.
I think it was the Gottmans who said, I think more marriages have ended from
the advice of never go to bed angry than it's actually saved.
Because when you're tired and you're cranky and you're emotionally drained,
you are not going to have a good conflict.
You're just not. You don't have the emotional capacity to do it.
(33:49):
So pick the right time and place for a conflict, even in the workplace.
At the end of your shift on a Friday, just before you go home,
or whatever your Friday happens to be, just before you go home is not a really
good time to open up that conflict saying, I got to catch my train in about
five minutes, but I really want to talk to you about that.
It's not setting yourself up or the other person up for
(34:10):
success so yeah that's smart what occurs
to me about the acronym and all the elements that
go into the acronym is the intentionality about
being really intentional about how you respond to conflict how you yeah i think
(34:32):
the word is response that's that comes to mind and i think about what
you were saying about the saying about never go to bed angry and not having
the emotional capacity at that point in time to deal with it.
And I think about the same, you know, in the workplace about firing off an email
in response to something else without taking the time to think about it.
(34:57):
And the advice I was given a long time ago, which I do try and adhere to,
not always successfully, but I try, is wait 24 hours.
If something feels off to me, to actually take time to consider what it means
to me, how I'm responding,
and what do I want to send back to that person or have what that conversation
(35:23):
should be like as opposed to having it in the moment of emotions.
Emails always make the hairs on the back of my neck stand up.
When we're looking at the context of a conflict or a highly emotional conversation,
the best way to do it, and I know a lot of people are going to send me nasty
(35:45):
messages, the best way to do it is face-to-face.
Yeah. When you're face-to-face with another person, you get tone of voice,
you get eye contact, text, you get body messaging, you get body language,
you get it all sort of as a complete package,
which can help clarify any misunderstandings before they happen.
(36:07):
The challenge we end up getting when we have an email is the tone and the form
that it's read in is the frame of mind of the reader.
It is not the frame of mind of the writer.
And we've all gotten those texts from our family and it seems really short.
(36:29):
It's like, oh my gosh, are they mad at me?
No, they are running down the street trying to catch a bus and they're typing with one hand.
They're not mad at all. But we end up thinking they're mad. We just lose so much when we do an email.
So be very, very careful if engaging in a conflict in writing.
If it's a long distance one, try on Zoom, because at least then you can get some eye contact.
(36:51):
You can get the tonality of voice and the inflection and the cadence where you're
just going to not get it when you write it at all.
It's perfect sense. And I think one of the reasons why people often default
to email is it's a little less scary to write an email.
For all of the reasons why you said it's better to have that conversation face to face.
(37:17):
So I think this ties back to what you were saying before about the vulnerability
and the courage that it takes to actually sit in front of someone and have that dialogue.
Very much so. I mean, if we look at the neuroscience of it, human beings are social creatures.
We thrive in conjunction with one And when there's friction or conflict or anything
(37:42):
out of sorts, particularly with people we hang around with a lot,
like spending at least 40 hours a week, if not very much more, with our co-workers,
being out of step, being outside of that social construct can be devastating.
And I mean, all you've got to do is read any of the studies on bullying or that
kind of thing to see how devastating it can be to an individual to be left outside of a social circle.
(38:06):
So our brain takes this as a
threat if i'm rejected from the
social circle because of this conflict this
you know go back 10 000 years i could die i'm gonna be out in the wilderness
all by myself yeah in modern life it's it's very unlikely we're gonna get eaten
(38:26):
by a bear for kicked out of the social circle yeah the the brain still sees
it as a huge huge threat which is why sometimes we do default.
A lot of times we do default to that written word so that we don't have to face that rejection head on.
But you also don't get the opportunity to invest in the relationship and strengthen the bond.
(38:48):
You don't have the opportunity to creatively look at a solution through digital
words, words that can so easily be deleted and misinterpreted towards one another.
So you're right, it's less scary, but you're also losing the opportunity to
(39:09):
invest in that relationship. changes.
I really like what you're saying about investing in that relationship and that
even in the midst of conflict, you can and should invest in that relationship.
And I think that really ties in with the whole idea of keep cracking that door,
(39:31):
keep working at it, even when it maybe feels like Like it's going nowhere,
that the effort that you're putting in is going to be worth it in the end.
So one of the things I hear all the time, especially from my coaching clients,
is around feedback and conflict and often how feedback can be perceived as a
(40:00):
threat or something detrimental as opposed to receiving it for what the intention is,
is to give feedback so that you can grow in your development, change your practice,
maybe better your work, all of that.
What would you say to that? Been there.
(40:22):
So this goes back to that threat. I'm in a social situation.
Typically, feedback is coming from someone who's on a hierarchy higher than us.
So it's coming from the head nurse or it's coming from a physician or it's coming
from the floor supervisor Or it's usually coming from someone higher up in the
hierarchy, which immediately adds stress.
(40:43):
We're now being critiqued in the social circle.
So there's fear. this also brings us back
to the idea that you can control and yes
you can you can control your reaction you also have autonomy over what you can
take on just because i as your supervisor says x y and z doesn't mean you have
(41:05):
to do x y and z you don't like y but you like x and you like z Z, let's do X and Z.
You have that ability to take on what you need to take on so that you can move forward.
But this does require intentionality on your part.
What are your professional goals? What does this look like next month?
(41:27):
What does this look like in six months? What does this look like in a year?
If I don't take on why, how does that affect my progression in what I want to do? Yeah.
So the economy, when it comes to feedback, and I think a lot of us really forget
about that, that just because my superior says it's so doesn't necessarily make it so.
(41:50):
With that said, if we flip the coin, I love the fact that you brought intent into it.
As a leader, I really need to articulate what my intention is when I'm giving feedback.
I need to tell you that I really love working with you and I think this would
(42:11):
make you a better professional. So here's my two cents.
I need to tell you why I'm giving you feedback and not waiting for the annual
performance review because that's a little forced. Yeah. Yes.
It also has to be specific. I can't say I really don't like the way you deal with people.
That that's amorphous what am i supposed to do with
(42:33):
that do i just change my entire humanity what do i do
it's not specific enough for me to do
anything with so as a leader i need to come in with intent and specificity during
the surgery i didn't like the way you did one two and three we need to fix this
for the next time we work together we also have to define impact so So intention,
(42:54):
specificity, and impact.
Because we did one, two, and three during the surgery, A, B,
and C happened. So we really can't have this happen again.
Yeah. It really puts things into context.
So how you deliver feedback as a leader can also take some of that fright and
that fear and that resistance out of it.
(43:15):
So really look at how you're delivering that feedback and make sure you're intentional,
specific, and identifying the impact.
I think there's a lot to be said around the identifying the impact piece.
And the reality with healthcare is that sometimes feedback is pretty heavy in
(43:36):
that somebody maybe didn't follow a policy, or, you know, there's been some sort of error.
And healthcare has come a long way with looking at errors from a different perspective
that used to be very punitive and whatnot.
They're starting to think about how else can we view errors and from a systems
(43:57):
perspective, how did that error actually occur?
But I think the history of healthcare and how it has dealt with issues like
that still feeds into fear of feedback. back.
And so when I think about the impact, I mean, impact is significant.
(44:18):
It could be the death of someone.
Now, that's a very extreme circumstance, but we all know what's happened.
So when you are giving feedback to someone, when the stakes are really high.
What else do you need to be thinking about besides your intention and the impact?
(44:40):
What else would be helpful in that situation?
You're speaking my quality language. I love this. I've been in a lot of environments
and had a lot of clients where feedback is punitive.
X has happened and therefore it's Leah's fault and we're going to punish Leah
because if we punish Leah, everything will be fine again. And that is never the case.
Yes, I said never. That was a definitive. That is never the case.
(45:02):
Yeah. There's always structure that's going on around that.
So I love the fact that you brought process into this.
What were the steps that led up to this error that could potentially be changed
so that this error never happens again?
Are we looking at equipment? Are we looking at availability of resources?
Are we looking at scheduling?
(45:22):
Are we looking at timelines? And particularly when we start getting into the
human resource side of things, when we're getting into the people side of things,
it's very hard to say, you are a robot, you will do this, you will do one,
two, and three every single time, and you will do it perfectly.
It's never, ever going to happen.
So, there's a humanity that we have to bring to this.
(45:43):
If my parent has just died, I'm more likely to make a mistake.
It's that humanity piece, no matter what process pieces are in there,
no matter how many checks and balances we have, no matter how much resource we've put into it.
So we really do have to look at that humanity.
We have to look at that relationship.
(46:05):
And what are we doing? Coming from a corporate environment, it's like,
you know, never miss a day's work. Always come in no matter what.
And I cannot tell you how many times I myself or other people have shown up
and they've been knocking on death's door. They really should be going to the ER.
And there's, I'm going to go into that client meeting anyway.
What is the the challenge here
(46:28):
is this person is not performing optimally they never
will they can barely see straight you know
how are we setting up our relationships
for success yes you check the box yes you
were here congratulations but how are we
supporting you show up showing up as the best version of yourself so that humanity
really needs to come in that's a very powerful And I think the more we can focus
(46:54):
on humanity in healthcare and every other business industry that is out there,
the more we can do our best work and be fulfilled in the work that we are doing.
We need to remember the humanity.
So Kat, where can people find your book? You can get my book on Amazon or you
(47:17):
can hit me up on my website at www.smartconflictbook.com and that'll give you
all the deets on the book and all the other ways you can get personally in contact
with me if you have any questions. Wonderful.
Please do check it out and we all need support with conflict. That's the reality.
And thank you so much, Kat, for being here and for sharing your thoughts.
(47:41):
It's been really insightful for me and I hope for others as well.
And I've definitely learned a lot.
Absolute pleasure. Thank you so, so much for having me, Leah.
Thanks so much for joining us today at Central Line Leadership in Healthcare.
Also, if you liked what you heard, please head on over to Apple Podcasts to
leave us a review. Be sure to subscribe so that you never miss an episode.
(48:03):
Also, if you'd like to learn more about our host, Leah Wuchek,
check out talltreesleadership.com.
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