October 21, 2025 • 31 mins
What would you trade for “the whole world”—and how would you know if the price was your soul? We dive into Jesus’ most piercing question and discover it’s not about a distant afterlife, but about the texture of our days: what we attend to, what we ignore, and how small trades add up to a life that quietly withers. We tell the truth about our bargaining—more status for less presence, more security for less courage—and we hold it next to moments that cannot be purchased: kids piled on the couch, siblings crying happy tears at a wedding, a room full of people awake to one another.
We unpack two big ways of seeing the soul. Through a Greek lens, the body is a cage and the soul floats free. Through a Jewish lens, your soul is your whole lived life—your inner life braided with embodied choices, your presence in real time. That shift reframes losing your soul as a daily erosion rather than a cosmic lightning strike. From Peter’s pushback to Jesus’ mission, we trace the hard paradox echoed in all four Gospels: grip your life and you lose it; give your life for something greater and you find it. Not martyrdom for its own sake, but self-giving love that deepens meaning.
You’ll leave with concrete ways to discern your true life: follow your aliveness, read your anger as a value compass, walk toward the fear that hides your gold, serve the need that’s in front of you, and ask who you’d be if possessions didn’t decide your days. The “whole world”—wealth, power, approval—never balances against the real you. The things that weigh most can’t be weighed, and that is why they’re worth everything. If this conversation stirs you, share it with a friend, subscribe for more, and leave a review to tell us what trade you refuse to make.
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Episode Transcript
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unknown (00:01):
Amen.
SPEAKER_00 (00:01):
Thank you, sir.
Let's pray.
God, we give you thanks thismorning for your presence here
with us.
And we ask God that you wouldYeah, come and make yourself
real to us this morning.
God, I ask that you wouldinspire us this morning all the
ways we need it.
And by your Holy Spirit, wouldyou give us a clear
understanding of what it meansto uh answer this question that
Jesus asked so many years ago?
(00:22):
And may we be awake thismorning, God, and may we
recognize the sacredness of thismoment, that this moment has not
been had in the entire historyof the world, but here we are,
and we are gifted and uh able toexperience this moment with each
other and with you, and so maywe not take that for granted and
(00:44):
bless our time this morning, maywe be a blessing to you, may we
follow Jesus together, may we uhyeah, be a place where people
can belong, and may we love ourneighbors uh across the street
and around the globe and and allthe moments and times we don't
want to love our neighbor.
Would you empower us by yourspirit to do so and may we do it
(01:04):
anyway and uh bless us thismorning in Jesus' name.
Amen.
Amen.
You can be seated.
Good morning, everyone.
Good to see you.
We're in the middle of ourseries called Uh This Isn't
Rhetorical, and it's we'reexamining uh the questions that
Jesus asked.
He asked over 300 questions, andit was incredible.
(01:24):
It's sort of like what ancientrabbis would do.
It's sort of their pedagogy,it's the fancy word.
He would ask questions to getyou to think about the deep
things of life.
And so we're exploring manydifferent questions.
And and the one this morning iswhen Jesus asks, What good is it
if you lose your soul?
Or what if you what is it?
What good is it if yeah if yougain the whole world uh but lose
your soul?
I should know the verse I'mpreaching on here.
(01:45):
You think I'm by the way, youknow, as you can maybe guess, as
we're you know, we've gotten alot bigger than the last little
while, and and um so I do myvery best in Sonia too to kind
of get to around to everybody,but uh at this gathering, it's
so full, it's a little bitchaotic to try to say hi to
everybody.
And I I love people, so I getkind of like, you know, I get
like my AHD is kind of goingcrazy.
But um, but after the service,after the sermon, I love to hang
(02:07):
around up front.
And if you ever want to chat orhave questions about the sermon,
I love talking about the sermon.
Even if you don't agree, I don'tcare if you agree or not, I'd
love to have a conversationabout it.
Um come and hang out at thefront with me.
And sometimes there's a bit of acrowd or line, but if you wait,
I'll wait.
I don't I don't care.
I'd love to just chat with youif you want to, or you can
always just come by later onduring the week and we can hang
out.
(02:27):
But um, yeah, I love that.
I love hanging out after andhearing what it what landed,
what didn't land, and that kindof thing.
So um rather than me trying tozip around out in the lobby,
which is like kind of spazzy, Ijust sort of like hang out up
here.
It just seems to work a littlebetter.
So um just come and hang up.
Okay, are you ready?
When I was a kid, I played thisgame.
We loved it.
It was called uh Oops, hang on.
Oh, oh, oh go backwards.
(02:48):
Okay.
Uh I've ruined my butt we callit, it's what would you trade
for that?
Maybe you played this as a kid,or you know, like what would you
trade for that?
And here's the idea (02:56):
whenever we as kids would want something
like an item or an experience,or I don't know, a girlfriend,
we would be like, hey, whatwould you trade to get that?
And you just start offering updifferent ideas about what you
might trade to get that.
And the idea is that at somepoint there was a line where you
like wouldn't give somethingbecause like it just wasn't
worth it.
But it got pretty wild up untilyou got to that line.
(03:18):
Because you'd be like, would youtrade?
Yeah, maybe.
So, for example, uh, when I wasyounger, I wanted this so badly.
Any suit or any uh originalNintendo entertainment system
owners?
Yes.
Not as many, yeah, not many,man.
You're either too old or tooyoung to have owned one of
these, but this is the goldenera of video game systems.
This is the greatest uhentertainment system of all
time.
(03:38):
It's the original NES, and Iwanted one so badly.
But of course, we were kids, Iwas broke, I couldn't afford one
of these.
So we would play the game.
What would you trade for this?
And so it was asked, would youtrade a week's allowance for a
Nintendo entertainment system?
And of course, the answer wasyes, of course I would.
Especially considering the factthat my allowance was zero
dollars a week.
So, yes, no problem.
(04:00):
I would trade 10 weeks, I wouldtrade a whole lifetime of
allowance of zero dollars forone of these bad boys.
Then they would ask, okay, well,what about your bike?
No, I had a sweet bike.
I had a I had a Huffy.
Remember Huffy?
Yeah, BMX style, red and black,you know, with the the handlebar
brakes and the pegs in the back.
(04:22):
They weren't really pegs, wewere broke.
They were just like little nuts,you'd put your feet in the nuts
so you'd have a rider on theback that just in the hopefully
he wouldn't get you know struckby the spokes or whatever.
Would you trade your bike for aNintendo Entertainment System?
I would do the calculations inmy head.
Oh wow, I love that bike.
Yes, I probably would.
(04:42):
I would.
Okay.
Okay.
Gotta up the ante now.
Okay, would you trade yoursister?
Oh, yes, of course I would.
Of course.
Notice the short duration ofdeliberation on that one.
It was yes.
No offense to my sister.
I love you, Desiree.
I love you.
But yes, I would trade her forthat.
Okay, up the ante.
Would you give, this is whereboys always go, would you give a
(05:05):
finger for this Nintendoentertainment system?
To which the only appropriateresponse is which finger?
Because if it's the thumb, Igotta, I can't, I can't do a
thumb.
I gotta play the thing.
I'm you know.
Pinky?
Probably, I would probably dothat.
Yeah, I'd probably trade.
unknown (05:18):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (05:18):
So uh maybe you play this game when you're younger.
And uh here's the deal, too.
We play this as adults.
Um, because we have these thingsas adults that we might trade
things for.
Like I love, I love a big house,like a mansion.
I'm not a I don't own a mansion,in case you didn't know.
But I I love them.
Like I was on Lake Minnetonkafor the Simmons wedding a couple
(05:39):
weeks ago, and like I was justlike like my eyes were giant as
we went around the lake, justlooking at all the ginormous
houses and the old Englisharistocrats that live in them.
I imagine, I imagine, I don'tknow.
All the bodies buried in theforest behind these houses, you
know, in Lake Minnetonka.
And I love a Porsche 911 twinturbo.
Oh my gosh, I would give a pinkyfor that no problem any day.
(06:01):
But yeah, what would you tradefor these things?
What would you give for like anice, you know, house or a
Nintendo entertainment system ora Porsche 911 twin turbo black
with leather seats?
What would you give for this?
Now here's the deal (06:16):
these questions are interesting
because they're actually notrhetorical.
So rhetorical means like it'slike this device where you ask a
question, but you really mean asa statement, like you're trying
to teach them something.
So you don't want a responseback.
But these get interesting whenyou really ask for a response
back, when it's not rhetorical.
Like, so don't just imagine, butlike, no, what would you give
for one of these things?
(06:36):
What might you do for one ofthese?
What would you trade?
And what would be the equivalentof like the worth and the value
of these things?
Jesus asks this question.
I love this question.
It's one of the most profoundones in all of scriptures.
It's my favorite one, he asks.
What good is it for someone togain the whole world and yet
forfeit their soul?
Here's the part where he'sasking the what would you trade
(06:56):
for it?
He's playing the game.
Would you or what could you uhexchange with anybody for their
soul?
Now, uh, this is probably arhetorical question by Jesus.
They don't answer him.
Um, and our series is actually,it's called This Isn't
Rhetorical, because what if youhad to answer this?
What if he's like, no, no,fellas, what could you exchange
(07:17):
that would be equal value ofyour soul?
What would you give?
And he made them answer.
Uh, then it wouldn't berhetorical.
Uh even though it probably was arhetorical question, but what if
it wasn't?
What if you had to answer thisquestion?
Uh what if it wasn't rhetorical?
Well, you exchange.
Here's the context, by the way.
Jesus goes up north intoCaesarea Philippi, and it's at
the end of his ministry.
He's been around for three yearsdoing ministry with all these
(07:38):
followers, and he's going to thecross, and he knows it.
It's his life mission.
This is why he came to exchangehis life to somehow save the
cosmos, the whole world, to fixthe whole thing, to put it back
on track, and as NT writes, toput it back to rights, like to
make it just and whole and fairand healed once again.
(08:00):
That's what he's doing.
And he he's made no, you know,uh claims otherwise, but that's
why he's here.
And then he puts it on displayhere and there when he heals
people, when he welcomes back inthe stranger, those kind of
things.
But his followers don't reallyget it.
And so he tells him up in thenorth, hey, I'm going to the
cross, I'm going to die.
And Peter, the valiant one who'sever so brave but also kind of
(08:20):
dull, he's like, No way, Jesus,you're not doing that.
He's like, We're gonna go downto the Sanhedrin, we're gonna
overthrow the Sanhedrin, theJewish leadership, and we'll
take over the temple.
Then we'll march on Rome withour army, we'll collect an army
along the way, and we'lloverthrow the empire and the
emperor, we'll become the newemperors.
He doesn't get it, you know.
And Jesus is like, Jesus goes,no, dude.
(08:42):
And in fact, he rebukes himpretty heavily.
So Peter rebukes Jesus, and thenJesus rebukes him right back.
He goes, No, hey, you've gotthings out of order.
He goes, get get in line, getget in proper order, get behind
me.
Then he calls him Satan.
He goes, get behind me, Satan,which I always laugh at.
Poor Peter is like, Why did Idid I deserve that?
What did I do to you?
It's also a bit alarming that hecalls him Satan.
(09:04):
By the way, the satanic, I wouldargue, is anything that blocks
us from the way to the cross.
It's not so much playing yourrock album backwards and
listening for those hiddenlyrics, yeah.
That's goofy.
Come on.
It isn't even dressing up forHalloween, I would argue.
It's it's way more sinister thanthat.
It's anything that blocks youfrom self-sacrificial love of
(09:26):
the other on the cross, or on across, prover proverbial,
proverbially.
And so he said, Get behind me,Satan.
And then Peter sort of slinksback in line, I'm guessing.
Because this is Jesus' missionand he knows it.
I love it.
And then he says this he goes,Hey, Peter, you have in mind the
things of the world, not thethings of God.
(09:48):
You're focusing on the things ofthe world, not the things of
that I'm trying to do here.
And then he says, By the way, ifanyone wants to follow me, take
up your cross and follow me inthe very next line.
And then he gives them thisparadox.
He says, Hey, if you want tosave your life, if you're here
trying to save your life, you'reprobably going to lose it.
But if you lose it for my sake,if you give your life away for
(10:12):
my sake, you might just find it.
That's a great paradox thatJesus gives him.
That teaching also is in allfour Gospels, which is very
rare.
Hardly ever is there any onestory or teaching that's in all
four gospels.
This one is.
Which means he probably said ita lot.
It was like a central part ofhis teachings.
If you exchange your life forsomething that, you know, for my
(10:33):
sake, and you you give it for mysake to something bigger than
you, then you might just findsomething incredibly valuable
and beautiful and worthwhile,Jesus tells him.
But if you try to hold on to itand grasp at it and grab for it,
and you'll probably lose it andend up in all kinds of places
you never thought you'd be orwanted to be.
Yeah, it's a good, it's a goodone.
So uh Jesus then says the verse.
(10:55):
He says, Hey, what good is it togain the whole world and yet
lose your soul?
What could you give in exchangefor your soul?
Again, he's not asking for ananswer back, but I'd love this
morning for us to just maybe wecan answer it.
What would you give for a soul?
The word exchange is the wordantilagma in the Greek.
Everyone say antilagma.
(11:16):
Beautiful.
And it just means what it says,but it's actually it's sort of
more nuanced.
It's exchange, compensation, orequivalent trade.
In other words, Jesus is askingthem, is this a fair trade?
What could you give as a fairtrade for someone's soul?
What would be the fair balancetrade?
What could you offer someone inexchange for their soul that
(11:40):
would be a fair one?
Yeah, where's the line?
What would you give for?
Or what would you give, whatwould you want in exchange for
your own soul?
Which of course raises thequestion, um, what is the value
of a soul?
I don't know how to what doesthat mean?
What is a soul worth?
Which maybe raises anotherquestion behind the question,
there's layers to this thing.
(12:01):
What is a soul?
We all use that language, butwhat does it mean when we say
the soul?
What is the soul?
What is a soul, in fact?
I want to offer you twodifferent ways of thinking about
it.
And uh I'm gonna go with thelatter one.
But there's two ways,predominantly in our history, of
of thinking about what a soulis.
One is a Greek way of thinkingabout the soul.
So the Greek world around Jesus'time, uh, they had sort of they
(12:24):
had uh really influenced thisarea heavily.
So a lot of the thinkers in thisarea in the Near East in the
first century were influenced byGreek thinking.
That you know, the Greeks werevery uh very influential in this
area.
And so many of that, much ofthat trickled down.
So most of the thinkers wereGreek thinkers.
Not the Jews, though.
The Jews had their own way ofthinking.
(12:45):
So I'm gonna unpack both ofthese quickly, but I want you to
understand this.
Most of us in this roomgenerally are Greek thinkers.
You may not know this, it's sortof the water you swim in, but
most of us think like Greekthinkers, very linear, very
matter-of-fact, A plus B, thatkind of thing.
Jews think, uh, and many folksin this area would think like
more circular.
It's it's different.
(13:06):
But here, okay, so here's thething.
So the soul, according to theGreeks, the soul or the Greeks
like um like Aristotle,actually, not him, sorry, Plato
and Socrates.
Aristotle didn't agree, butPlato, Socrates, they saw the
soul as like its own entity.
It was like a spirit or a soulthat like the that enlivened the
body, but the body was nothingimportant.
(13:27):
It was just like a meat suitthat your soul wore to walk
around in, right?
It was like the carrying case ofthe soul.
The body was not that important,the body was like a cage for the
soul.
So, but the soul was theenlivening force.
The soul was indestructible, itlived forever.
The body would be destroyed andnever to be seen from again.
If you're a Greek, the idea ofheaven might be your soul goes
(13:48):
out of your body, the body goesinto the ground, never to be
seen or heard from again, andthen you have this disembodied
soul floating around in a cloud,maybe playing a harp.
I don't know.
In a diaper?
I don't know what's the deal.
Many of you are like, yeah,that's heaven.
Isn't that what heaven is?
No, not exactly, according tothe Jewish or Judeo-Christian
idea.
But okay, that's like the Greekway of thinking about the soul.
(14:09):
The soul is this life force,it's caged in the body.
The body's not really anythingimportant, it's just a meat suit
that the soul wears.
Does that make sense?
Okay.
The Jews, though, thought, no,no, no, the soul, they had a
more by the way, this is calleddualism.
Like dualism is like when yousplit things in half that maybe
shouldn't be split in half, ornot even in half, but
dichotomized, you know, thesethings.
(14:29):
So, okay, the Jews though weremuch more holistic.
They weren't dualists, they wereholistic people.
They thought that the soul andthe body were kind of different,
but they were inextricablylinked.
That the body and the soul werelike, like that the body was
like a sacred temple in whichthe soul lived, but it was lived
out in real, ordinary, everydaylife.
(14:51):
So your life lived out was whatthe soul was.
Like how you lived your life wasyour soul.
You know what I'm saying?
Does that make sense?
And so uh the body wasn't a cagethat held the soul captive that
would just die and go away, andthen heaven is some disabled.
The Jews believed that when Godpromised to restore things,
there'd be like it would be onthis earth with this body.
(15:11):
It'd be it was very much becausethe body and the soul were one.
That the body was you.
So that's kind of what theythought about the soul.
So, okay, so the Greekphilosophy said that the body is
a cage.
Jewish philosophy said that, ohno, the body is you.
Meanwhile, Minnesota philosophyis like the body is just trying
to survive one more winter.
(15:31):
Please, God, let it go.
Does that make sense?
Because here's what I'll say.
Many of us read this verse andwe're like, oh, he's asking,
would I exchange this innerthing?
We're like Greek thinkers, wouldI exchange my life force like
post when I die, my eternal uhfuture?
(15:52):
Would I would I would I give upeternal destruction to let my
soul be damned in hell foreverif I could drive a Porsche of
9-11 until I die?
And it doesn't account for likemy life here and now, but I
think Jesus is not asking, he'sasking something much deeper.
So, in a Jewish sense, thesoul's not just after you die or
this ethereal thing floatingaround, the soul is your whole
(16:15):
body, how your life is left out.
Now we know this because in ourculture we do pick up on this a
little bit.
We might say things like, Oh,that guy's an old soul, right?
You know Ben Caruthers, he'slike 40, he's in his 40s.
Uh he shops at Hallmark.
Ben's an old soul, you know whatI'm saying?
You might also say, Oh, umteaching, teaching, uh, it's my
(16:37):
soul's work.
That's what I love to do.
By the way, let me, before I goany further, the the word for
for soul in the Greek is thisword uh psyche.
Everybody say psyche.
Are there any Gen Xers in thehouse tonight?
Today?
Okay, a couple.
Did any of you man, not thatmany?
Raise them high, be proud.
Gen X.
Okay, a couple.
Wait, where'd all the Gen Xersgo?
(16:59):
They're out skateboarding,listening to Nirvana or
something.
Uh please tell me that one ofyou read this not as psyche, but
as psyche?
Anybody?
Okay, thank you.
Okay, good.
At the 8:30, that joke bombed.
Nobody got that joke.
It was terrible.
Okay, psyche?
Okay, uh, I'm getting warm inhere.
Moving on.
(17:19):
So psyche means soul or spirit.
That's Greek.
It's a Greek word, so that's theGreek way of thinking about it.
But again, in this more Jewishway of thinking that I want to
offer today, uh, psyche, soul,spirit, I'm gonna skip this,
means the whole self.
It means your inner being, butalso your outer being, how your
life is lived out, your verylife lived out in real time and
(17:39):
place, not just after you die.
And it's the manner in whichyour very life is lived out here
and now.
So Ben is an old soul because helives like that, right?
If you're a teacher, liketeaching is my soul's work.
I love to teach.
You might drive through aneighborhood that has like a
good, it's got some soul to it,right?
John Mayer's guitar riffs havesome soul to them.
(18:00):
You know what I'm saying?
My brother and I, we have these,like I think what I would call
it, his name's Chris, we havethese great soul-to-soul
conversations.
Mostly it's Instagram reelsgoing back and forth, but you
know, it's still pretty deep.
But we really do have thisgreat, yeah.
Because soul really means likehow you live your life, how your
life is lived out in theordinary ways of of life.
(18:23):
So there you go.
So your whole soul is your wholeself.
Eugene Peterson translates thisverse.
Here's how he says, I love it.
He says, Hey, what good would itdo to get everything you want,
but lose you?
The real you, the true you, yourlife.
What could you ever trade to getyour life back?
(18:46):
And if it's not a rhetoricalquestion, what could you give?
Or what could someone offer youand you to give them your very
life, the truest sense of whoyou are?
What's that worth?
What would you trade for that?
The real and true you.
Yeah, what's that worth?
By the way, the word wholeworld.
Oh, actually, let me say thistoo.
(19:07):
So maybe losing your soul isn'tabout some like post-death,
eternal damnation, or whatever.
Maybe losing your soul is um agradual withering of your life
in every way.
Which, if you think about thatreally means, that's that's
really uh much more ominous.
(19:27):
Your life just to wither away,and you never live out your
fullness of who you are or meantto be or what you found joy in.
Maybe that's the more sinisterthing to watch your life
gradually wither away.
Inner life and of course yourouter life.
So Jesus asks, What's it worth?
The whole world, by the way,what does that mean?
(19:50):
Well, it means a lot of things.
It can mean your earthlypossessions or any of them.
What would you give for a soul?
Could you trade a Porsche 9-11?
Would that be an equivalenttrade, a fair trade?
A pinky, yeah.
Uh, it's wealth, it's power,it's honor, it's status.
Would you trade all of thesethings?
Would they be equal value of asoul?
A life, your true you, politicalgain, all human striving for
(20:15):
success, security, approval, thesum of all human desires.
If you could have all yourdesires met, would you trade
your life for that?
Many of us do.
I mean, we live lives where wetrade things back and forth.
(20:37):
That's what we do.
Would you trade eight to tenhours of your day for that job?
With that salary?
Is it worth it?
Is it an equal trade?
Would you trade three hoursbefore bedtime?
And that whatever you would do,would you trade that to just
look at your phone for threehours?
Is that an equal trade?
(20:58):
Would you trade your life, yourfamily, your spouse, your kids,
the house, the community?
Would you trade all of that torespond to that Facebook message
from that old high schoolsweetheart of yours who wants to
reconnect?
What's a fair trade for one'slife?
Their true self, their fullself, their full whole life?
(21:20):
Is the whole world worth it?
Jesus is asking, what good is itif you gain all of this but lose
yourself?
What good is it?
What's the value of a soul?
I can tell you the value of aPorsche 911, or of the Nintendo
Entertainment System, the valueof a home.
I can weigh those.
(21:41):
I can tell you what they whatthey cost.
But the things that weigh themost in life can't be weighed.
I'll say it again.
The things that weigh the mostin life, they can't be weighed.
Your life, the tree, you can'tweigh that.
What's the value of that?
I'd give anything to go back towhen my kids were little.
(22:05):
And um, just for a moment, youknow.
Like at the summertime whenthere's little kids at home and
Katie's making lunch and we'rewatching movies and hanging out,
I'd give anything to go back.
Like, what's that worth?
I'd give anything to go back.
Maybe to this moment here.
Yeah.
I'd go, I'd give anything to goback to that moment.
(22:25):
The funny thing is, too, beforeyou think, oh, Pastor Ryan's got
a perfect life and family.
No, just before I took thisphoto, I was all I was laying on
the floor because I was dogtired, I was exhausted, I was
crabby, I was maybe yelling, andthey all dog piled on me and
like saved me from myself.
You know what I mean?
That's what kids do sometimesbecause kids don't know any
better.
And I was like, oh, don't be anidiot, Ryan.
(22:46):
Snap out of it and take thispicture.
Yeah.
What would you give for a momentlike this?
Or how about this one?
I my boys, the two knuckleheadsin the bottom, are now in
college and they were both homelast weekend for a brief moment,
and we were all hanging out, andthen me and Katie went to go do
something, and then they all,the four of them, disappeared.
I'm like, where'd they go?
And I couldn't find them, so I'mlike, are they downstairs
(23:07):
together?
So I ran downstairs and Ithought I saw this.
They're all watching a movie,and they have the dog down
there.
I was like, nobody move.
I'm gonna sneak out of herequietly so I don't ruin this
beautiful moment, you know.
Yeah, what would you pay for amoment like that?
What'd you give?
What would I give for that?
Yeah, yesterday I was at awedding.
(23:28):
We were in a wedding in Mora,and uh, Cassie and Joshua got
married, and I was doing theceremony, and it got me, man,
because they came walking theaisle, and then the first
bridesmaid and the first groom'sthe sister, and then you know,
one of the friends, and then thesecond one was another sister,
and both sisters were walkingdown the aisle, just bawling
with joy.
(23:49):
And I was like, good gosh, youguys are killing me.
I'm starting, I start crying.
I'm trying to like the mom'scrying, the dad of the bride is
crying.
I'm the pastor, I can't cry uphere.
Yeah, what would you give for amoment like that?
What about this moment?
You know, I bet if if I fastforwarded to 20 years from now,
and I said and I said to your 20year from now self, hey, what
(24:11):
would you give to go back tothat day when your body was 20
years younger and you had thesefolks here?
What would you give?
You might give a lot for that.
Because those things can't bevalued.
I mean, what's the value ofthose things?
Those things are probably truly,truly invaluable.
Yeah.
What is the real you worth?
(24:32):
Not the you that others want youto be, not the you the world's
trying to lure you into being,not the one the commercials are
trying to sell you, not the oneyour parents want you to be.
What's the real what's the valueof you, the real you living your
life?
What's that worth?
You could also reverse engineerthis and ask it this way um look
(24:54):
at it look at a life that's beendestroyed.
And what would you give to goback?
I have a friend who had a lot ofthings, had it all, and gave it
all away, and he had thisaffair, and it wrecked
everything.
I'm like, dude, whoa.
I wanted to ask him, like, whatwould you give to go back?
And like undo that and and liveit out differently.
(25:17):
What'd you give?
What's a life that's beendestroyed?
Like, what's a life of addictionreally what's it like?
What does it feel like to not bethe true you, not not be free to
live out your true self becauseyou're uh addicted to whatever
it is?
What's it like to live a lifefull of fear?
You you're hamstrung to likemake any decision because you're
so afraid?
(25:37):
Maybe a life of numbing, ormaybe a life of living
vicariously through your ownkids because your life was
miserable when you were young.
What's that like?
To not live is the true freeyou.
I think Jesus is certainlyimplying there's nothing
equivalent to the value of thetrue you being lived out.
(25:59):
Authentic you.
There's no value that'sequivalent.
Nothing.
Here are five things toconsider.
Um what is your true life?
What does it mean for you tolive out your true life, to be
your true self?
Not the false self, but the trueyou.
Who God made you to be, designedyou to be, skilled you to be,
(26:21):
gifted you to be?
Not the commercials begging youto be, not your friends, not
your family, not the society bebecause you gotta go upstream to
find this.
You have to go upstream forsure.
Against the stream.
What's your true life?
And what does it feel like tolive that?
Or maybe you don't know.
What what would what it what uhif you imagine it would look
what would it let me ask thatagain.
(26:42):
Uh what yeah, what does it feellike to live that in your
imagination, I guess?
Um and how does it feel like towither on the inside?
What does it look like to livein accord with who you're meant
to be?
Two more, if this will work.
(27:04):
There we go.
Uh can you feel it when you misswhat you're designed to be or
designed to do?
What does it feel like when youhit that and you don't miss
that?
Yeah.
What does that feel like?
The great Ernest Becker saysthis most of our life is in
large part a rationalization ofour failure to find out who we
(27:25):
really are.
What our basic strength is, andwhat thing it is we're meant to
give, uh meant to work upon theworld.
Most of us don't know what we'rehere doing.
And most of us don't even ask.
My friend Tom Tyler at the atthe earlier gathering, we left
this.
He goes, That's a hard question,Ryan.
I go, I know, but at least askit.
Because most of us don't know.
(27:46):
And our life is arationalization of our failure
to find out who we were reallymeant to be.
So, uh, Americans are morelikely to regret the things they
don't do than the things theyhave done.
So, for example, did you knowthat 40% of Americans regret not
speaking their mind?
They live in fear of rejectionor they're living in the false,
(28:07):
whatever.
But they're not they're notliving out their full lives.
36 regret not visiting friendsand family enough.
35 regret not pursuing theirdreams.
Parker Palmer, who wrote a greatbook, I love this.
You can read his book.
It's called uh Let Your LifeSpeak.
I've got a copy if you want toborrow it, but get one on
Amazon, read it.
It's like not very long.
(28:27):
It's great to figure out who youare, what you're here to do.
He says, if we are unfaithful toour true self, we'll extract a
price from others.
We'll make promises we can'tkeep, build houses from flimsy
stuff, conjure dreams thatdevolve into nightmares, and
other people will suffer becauseof it if we are unfaithful to
(28:47):
our true selves.
Yeah, we'll wreak havoc onothers by not living out who
we're meant to be.
There's no value for that.
That's equal trade.
So here's how you find out whoyou truly are.
I think to begin, at leastasking this question, I'll close
with this.
How do you find out who you'remeant to be, what you're
supposed to do?
Well, one, you could ask whatmakes you come alive.
(29:08):
What do you do that makes yousort of come alive?
And maybe you're done whenyou're done with it, you're
tired, but you're like a goodtired.
Like, what is it that you feellike alive when you're doing it?
That doesn't suck the soul outof you.
It feels the opposite ofwithering, you know?
It feels like enlivening.
What is that?
You could also ask this way uhwhat angers you?
(29:28):
What just gets you?
Because here's the thing manytimes anger is an infringement
of a boundary of something youvalue.
So I'll say that again.
Many times anger is a sign thatthere's been an infringement on
a boundary that you value.
So if domestic violence uh abuseuh angers you, yeah, that's
because you value not, you know,uh wholeness and healing and
(29:52):
healthy relationships.
So that if that angers you,that's a sign that you value not
that, right?
What things anger you?
And maybe do something aboutthat then.
Get involved.
How about this question?
What scares you?
Many times we have this sense oflike, you know, we're so afraid
because our brains trying toprotect ourselves, and like the
soul knows it wants to go downthis road, but you're sort of
(30:12):
scared and like, yeah, maybeit's a sign you should do that.
Because in the thing that scaresyou is something valuable.
There's gold down there.
You gotta go find it.
What scares you?
How about this?
How can you just serve others?
Look around.
Where do you see need?
Go serve somebody.
Go do something to help.
Go volunteer at Rivers of Hope.
Help Ben and Isabel on Sundaymornings.
(30:33):
Go read children, like I saidlast week.
There's all kinds of things.
But how about this?
If possessions meant nothing toyou, nothing.
What would you do with yourlife?
How would you spend your days?
If possessions, houses, cars,money, that meant nothing to
you.
I know I'm an idealist, but whatwould it what would you do?
Because Jesus says, those whotry to save their lives will
(30:54):
lose it, but those who lose itfor my sake will find it.
The answer is to give your lifeto something greater than you.
And Jesus tells them it's theway of the cross.
Give your life as a sacrificefor others.
That, in that you will findmeaning.
So do that.
Follow Jesus all the way to thecross.
(31:16):
It may not make you healthy,wealthy, and wise, but it'll
give you substance in your life,make your life meaningful, full
of joy and goodness and hope andrestoration.
It'll give you a good soul.
Do you hear me?
Central Lutheran Church, maythis question sink deep into
your soul.
May it haunt your dreams.
(31:37):
Yeah, what good is it forsomeone to gain the whole world,
all the things, but losethemselves, the real them?
And what could you everexchange?
What could you give to get backthe real you?
What's of equal trade there?
May you hear this question.
May you indeed follow Jesus allthe way to the cross.
(31:58):
Amen.
Amen.
SPEAKER_00 (00:01):
Thank you, sir.
Let's pray.
God, we give you thanks thismorning for your presence here
with us.
And we ask God that you wouldYeah, come and make yourself
real to us this morning.
God, I ask that you wouldinspire us this morning all the
ways we need it.
And by your Holy Spirit, wouldyou give us a clear
understanding of what it meansto uh answer this question that
Jesus asked so many years ago?
(00:22):
And may we be awake thismorning, God, and may we
recognize the sacredness of thismoment, that this moment has not
been had in the entire historyof the world, but here we are,
and we are gifted and uh able toexperience this moment with each
other and with you, and so maywe not take that for granted and
(00:44):
bless our time this morning, maywe be a blessing to you, may we
follow Jesus together, may we uhyeah, be a place where people
can belong, and may we love ourneighbors uh across the street
and around the globe and and allthe moments and times we don't
want to love our neighbor.
Would you empower us by yourspirit to do so and may we do it
(01:04):
anyway and uh bless us thismorning in Jesus' name.
Amen.
Amen.
You can be seated.
Good morning, everyone.
Good to see you.
We're in the middle of ourseries called Uh This Isn't
Rhetorical, and it's we'reexamining uh the questions that
Jesus asked.
He asked over 300 questions, andit was incredible.
(01:24):
It's sort of like what ancientrabbis would do.
It's sort of their pedagogy,it's the fancy word.
He would ask questions to getyou to think about the deep
things of life.
And so we're exploring manydifferent questions.
And and the one this morning iswhen Jesus asks, What good is it
if you lose your soul?
Or what if you what is it?
What good is it if yeah if yougain the whole world uh but lose
your soul?
I should know the verse I'mpreaching on here.
(01:45):
You think I'm by the way, youknow, as you can maybe guess, as
we're you know, we've gotten alot bigger than the last little
while, and and um so I do myvery best in Sonia too to kind
of get to around to everybody,but uh at this gathering, it's
so full, it's a little bitchaotic to try to say hi to
everybody.
And I I love people, so I getkind of like, you know, I get
like my AHD is kind of goingcrazy.
But um, but after the service,after the sermon, I love to hang
(02:07):
around up front.
And if you ever want to chat orhave questions about the sermon,
I love talking about the sermon.
Even if you don't agree, I don'tcare if you agree or not, I'd
love to have a conversationabout it.
Um come and hang out at thefront with me.
And sometimes there's a bit of acrowd or line, but if you wait,
I'll wait.
I don't I don't care.
I'd love to just chat with youif you want to, or you can
always just come by later onduring the week and we can hang
out.
(02:27):
But um, yeah, I love that.
I love hanging out after andhearing what it what landed,
what didn't land, and that kindof thing.
So um rather than me trying tozip around out in the lobby,
which is like kind of spazzy, Ijust sort of like hang out up
here.
It just seems to work a littlebetter.
So um just come and hang up.
Okay, are you ready?
When I was a kid, I played thisgame.
We loved it.
It was called uh Oops, hang on.
Oh, oh, oh go backwards.
(02:48):
Okay.
Uh I've ruined my butt we callit, it's what would you trade
for that?
Maybe you played this as a kid,or you know, like what would you
trade for that?
And here's the idea (02:56):
whenever we as kids would want something
like an item or an experience,or I don't know, a girlfriend,
we would be like, hey, whatwould you trade to get that?
And you just start offering updifferent ideas about what you
might trade to get that.
And the idea is that at somepoint there was a line where you
like wouldn't give somethingbecause like it just wasn't
worth it.
But it got pretty wild up untilyou got to that line.
(03:18):
Because you'd be like, would youtrade?
Yeah, maybe.
So, for example, uh, when I wasyounger, I wanted this so badly.
Any suit or any uh originalNintendo entertainment system
owners?
Yes.
Not as many, yeah, not many,man.
You're either too old or tooyoung to have owned one of
these, but this is the goldenera of video game systems.
This is the greatest uhentertainment system of all
time.
(03:38):
It's the original NES, and Iwanted one so badly.
But of course, we were kids, Iwas broke, I couldn't afford one
of these.
So we would play the game.
What would you trade for this?
And so it was asked, would youtrade a week's allowance for a
Nintendo entertainment system?
And of course, the answer wasyes, of course I would.
Especially considering the factthat my allowance was zero
dollars a week.
So, yes, no problem.
(04:00):
I would trade 10 weeks, I wouldtrade a whole lifetime of
allowance of zero dollars forone of these bad boys.
Then they would ask, okay, well,what about your bike?
No, I had a sweet bike.
I had a I had a Huffy.
Remember Huffy?
Yeah, BMX style, red and black,you know, with the the handlebar
brakes and the pegs in the back.
(04:22):
They weren't really pegs, wewere broke.
They were just like little nuts,you'd put your feet in the nuts
so you'd have a rider on theback that just in the hopefully
he wouldn't get you know struckby the spokes or whatever.
Would you trade your bike for aNintendo Entertainment System?
I would do the calculations inmy head.
Oh wow, I love that bike.
Yes, I probably would.
(04:42):
I would.
Okay.
Okay.
Gotta up the ante now.
Okay, would you trade yoursister?
Oh, yes, of course I would.
Of course.
Notice the short duration ofdeliberation on that one.
It was yes.
No offense to my sister.
I love you, Desiree.
I love you.
But yes, I would trade her forthat.
Okay, up the ante.
Would you give, this is whereboys always go, would you give a
(05:05):
finger for this Nintendoentertainment system?
To which the only appropriateresponse is which finger?
Because if it's the thumb, Igotta, I can't, I can't do a
thumb.
I gotta play the thing.
I'm you know.
Pinky?
Probably, I would probably dothat.
Yeah, I'd probably trade.
unknown (05:18):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (05:18):
So uh maybe you play this game when you're younger.
And uh here's the deal, too.
We play this as adults.
Um, because we have these thingsas adults that we might trade
things for.
Like I love, I love a big house,like a mansion.
I'm not a I don't own a mansion,in case you didn't know.
But I I love them.
Like I was on Lake Minnetonkafor the Simmons wedding a couple
(05:39):
weeks ago, and like I was justlike like my eyes were giant as
we went around the lake, justlooking at all the ginormous
houses and the old Englisharistocrats that live in them.
I imagine, I imagine, I don'tknow.
All the bodies buried in theforest behind these houses, you
know, in Lake Minnetonka.
And I love a Porsche 911 twinturbo.
Oh my gosh, I would give a pinkyfor that no problem any day.
(06:01):
But yeah, what would you tradefor these things?
What would you give for like anice, you know, house or a
Nintendo entertainment system ora Porsche 911 twin turbo black
with leather seats?
What would you give for this?
Now here's the deal (06:16):
these questions are interesting
because they're actually notrhetorical.
So rhetorical means like it'slike this device where you ask a
question, but you really mean asa statement, like you're trying
to teach them something.
So you don't want a responseback.
But these get interesting whenyou really ask for a response
back, when it's not rhetorical.
Like, so don't just imagine, butlike, no, what would you give
for one of these things?
(06:36):
What might you do for one ofthese?
What would you trade?
And what would be the equivalentof like the worth and the value
of these things?
Jesus asks this question.
I love this question.
It's one of the most profoundones in all of scriptures.
It's my favorite one, he asks.
What good is it for someone togain the whole world and yet
forfeit their soul?
Here's the part where he'sasking the what would you trade
(06:56):
for it?
He's playing the game.
Would you or what could you uhexchange with anybody for their
soul?
Now, uh, this is probably arhetorical question by Jesus.
They don't answer him.
Um, and our series is actually,it's called This Isn't
Rhetorical, because what if youhad to answer this?
What if he's like, no, no,fellas, what could you exchange
(07:17):
that would be equal value ofyour soul?
What would you give?
And he made them answer.
Uh, then it wouldn't berhetorical.
Uh even though it probably was arhetorical question, but what if
it wasn't?
What if you had to answer thisquestion?
Uh what if it wasn't rhetorical?
Well, you exchange.
Here's the context, by the way.
Jesus goes up north intoCaesarea Philippi, and it's at
the end of his ministry.
He's been around for three yearsdoing ministry with all these
(07:38):
followers, and he's going to thecross, and he knows it.
It's his life mission.
This is why he came to exchangehis life to somehow save the
cosmos, the whole world, to fixthe whole thing, to put it back
on track, and as NT writes, toput it back to rights, like to
make it just and whole and fairand healed once again.
(08:00):
That's what he's doing.
And he he's made no, you know,uh claims otherwise, but that's
why he's here.
And then he puts it on displayhere and there when he heals
people, when he welcomes back inthe stranger, those kind of
things.
But his followers don't reallyget it.
And so he tells him up in thenorth, hey, I'm going to the
cross, I'm going to die.
And Peter, the valiant one who'sever so brave but also kind of
(08:20):
dull, he's like, No way, Jesus,you're not doing that.
He's like, We're gonna go downto the Sanhedrin, we're gonna
overthrow the Sanhedrin, theJewish leadership, and we'll
take over the temple.
Then we'll march on Rome withour army, we'll collect an army
along the way, and we'lloverthrow the empire and the
emperor, we'll become the newemperors.
He doesn't get it, you know.
And Jesus is like, Jesus goes,no, dude.
(08:42):
And in fact, he rebukes himpretty heavily.
So Peter rebukes Jesus, and thenJesus rebukes him right back.
He goes, No, hey, you've gotthings out of order.
He goes, get get in line, getget in proper order, get behind
me.
Then he calls him Satan.
He goes, get behind me, Satan,which I always laugh at.
Poor Peter is like, Why did Idid I deserve that?
What did I do to you?
It's also a bit alarming that hecalls him Satan.
(09:04):
By the way, the satanic, I wouldargue, is anything that blocks
us from the way to the cross.
It's not so much playing yourrock album backwards and
listening for those hiddenlyrics, yeah.
That's goofy.
Come on.
It isn't even dressing up forHalloween, I would argue.
It's it's way more sinister thanthat.
It's anything that blocks youfrom self-sacrificial love of
(09:26):
the other on the cross, or on across, prover proverbial,
proverbially.
And so he said, Get behind me,Satan.
And then Peter sort of slinksback in line, I'm guessing.
Because this is Jesus' missionand he knows it.
I love it.
And then he says this he goes,Hey, Peter, you have in mind the
things of the world, not thethings of God.
(09:48):
You're focusing on the things ofthe world, not the things of
that I'm trying to do here.
And then he says, By the way, ifanyone wants to follow me, take
up your cross and follow me inthe very next line.
And then he gives them thisparadox.
He says, Hey, if you want tosave your life, if you're here
trying to save your life, you'reprobably going to lose it.
But if you lose it for my sake,if you give your life away for
(10:12):
my sake, you might just find it.
That's a great paradox thatJesus gives him.
That teaching also is in allfour Gospels, which is very
rare.
Hardly ever is there any onestory or teaching that's in all
four gospels.
This one is.
Which means he probably said ita lot.
It was like a central part ofhis teachings.
If you exchange your life forsomething that, you know, for my
(10:33):
sake, and you you give it for mysake to something bigger than
you, then you might just findsomething incredibly valuable
and beautiful and worthwhile,Jesus tells him.
But if you try to hold on to itand grasp at it and grab for it,
and you'll probably lose it andend up in all kinds of places
you never thought you'd be orwanted to be.
Yeah, it's a good, it's a goodone.
So uh Jesus then says the verse.
(10:55):
He says, Hey, what good is it togain the whole world and yet
lose your soul?
What could you give in exchangefor your soul?
Again, he's not asking for ananswer back, but I'd love this
morning for us to just maybe wecan answer it.
What would you give for a soul?
The word exchange is the wordantilagma in the Greek.
Everyone say antilagma.
(11:16):
Beautiful.
And it just means what it says,but it's actually it's sort of
more nuanced.
It's exchange, compensation, orequivalent trade.
In other words, Jesus is askingthem, is this a fair trade?
What could you give as a fairtrade for someone's soul?
What would be the fair balancetrade?
What could you offer someone inexchange for their soul that
(11:40):
would be a fair one?
Yeah, where's the line?
What would you give for?
Or what would you give, whatwould you want in exchange for
your own soul?
Which of course raises thequestion, um, what is the value
of a soul?
I don't know how to what doesthat mean?
What is a soul worth?
Which maybe raises anotherquestion behind the question,
there's layers to this thing.
(12:01):
What is a soul?
We all use that language, butwhat does it mean when we say
the soul?
What is the soul?
What is a soul, in fact?
I want to offer you twodifferent ways of thinking about
it.
And uh I'm gonna go with thelatter one.
But there's two ways,predominantly in our history, of
of thinking about what a soulis.
One is a Greek way of thinkingabout the soul.
So the Greek world around Jesus'time, uh, they had sort of they
(12:24):
had uh really influenced thisarea heavily.
So a lot of the thinkers in thisarea in the Near East in the
first century were influenced byGreek thinking.
That you know, the Greeks werevery uh very influential in this
area.
And so many of that, much ofthat trickled down.
So most of the thinkers wereGreek thinkers.
Not the Jews, though.
The Jews had their own way ofthinking.
(12:45):
So I'm gonna unpack both ofthese quickly, but I want you to
understand this.
Most of us in this roomgenerally are Greek thinkers.
You may not know this, it's sortof the water you swim in, but
most of us think like Greekthinkers, very linear, very
matter-of-fact, A plus B, thatkind of thing.
Jews think, uh, and many folksin this area would think like
more circular.
It's it's different.
(13:06):
But here, okay, so here's thething.
So the soul, according to theGreeks, the soul or the Greeks
like um like Aristotle,actually, not him, sorry, Plato
and Socrates.
Aristotle didn't agree, butPlato, Socrates, they saw the
soul as like its own entity.
It was like a spirit or a soulthat like the that enlivened the
body, but the body was nothingimportant.
(13:27):
It was just like a meat suitthat your soul wore to walk
around in, right?
It was like the carrying case ofthe soul.
The body was not that important,the body was like a cage for the
soul.
So, but the soul was theenlivening force.
The soul was indestructible, itlived forever.
The body would be destroyed andnever to be seen from again.
If you're a Greek, the idea ofheaven might be your soul goes
(13:48):
out of your body, the body goesinto the ground, never to be
seen or heard from again, andthen you have this disembodied
soul floating around in a cloud,maybe playing a harp.
I don't know.
In a diaper?
I don't know what's the deal.
Many of you are like, yeah,that's heaven.
Isn't that what heaven is?
No, not exactly, according tothe Jewish or Judeo-Christian
idea.
But okay, that's like the Greekway of thinking about the soul.
(14:09):
The soul is this life force,it's caged in the body.
The body's not really anythingimportant, it's just a meat suit
that the soul wears.
Does that make sense?
Okay.
The Jews, though, thought, no,no, no, the soul, they had a
more by the way, this is calleddualism.
Like dualism is like when yousplit things in half that maybe
shouldn't be split in half, ornot even in half, but
dichotomized, you know, thesethings.
(14:29):
So, okay, the Jews though weremuch more holistic.
They weren't dualists, they wereholistic people.
They thought that the soul andthe body were kind of different,
but they were inextricablylinked.
That the body and the soul werelike, like that the body was
like a sacred temple in whichthe soul lived, but it was lived
out in real, ordinary, everydaylife.
(14:51):
So your life lived out was whatthe soul was.
Like how you lived your life wasyour soul.
You know what I'm saying?
Does that make sense?
And so uh the body wasn't a cagethat held the soul captive that
would just die and go away, andthen heaven is some disabled.
The Jews believed that when Godpromised to restore things,
there'd be like it would be onthis earth with this body.
(15:11):
It'd be it was very much becausethe body and the soul were one.
That the body was you.
So that's kind of what theythought about the soul.
So, okay, so the Greekphilosophy said that the body is
a cage.
Jewish philosophy said that, ohno, the body is you.
Meanwhile, Minnesota philosophyis like the body is just trying
to survive one more winter.
(15:31):
Please, God, let it go.
Does that make sense?
Because here's what I'll say.
Many of us read this verse andwe're like, oh, he's asking,
would I exchange this innerthing?
We're like Greek thinkers, wouldI exchange my life force like
post when I die, my eternal uhfuture?
(15:52):
Would I would I would I give upeternal destruction to let my
soul be damned in hell foreverif I could drive a Porsche of
9-11 until I die?
And it doesn't account for likemy life here and now, but I
think Jesus is not asking, he'sasking something much deeper.
So, in a Jewish sense, thesoul's not just after you die or
this ethereal thing floatingaround, the soul is your whole
(16:15):
body, how your life is left out.
Now we know this because in ourculture we do pick up on this a
little bit.
We might say things like, Oh,that guy's an old soul, right?
You know Ben Caruthers, he'slike 40, he's in his 40s.
Uh he shops at Hallmark.
Ben's an old soul, you know whatI'm saying?
You might also say, Oh, umteaching, teaching, uh, it's my
(16:37):
soul's work.
That's what I love to do.
By the way, let me, before I goany further, the the word for
for soul in the Greek is thisword uh psyche.
Everybody say psyche.
Are there any Gen Xers in thehouse tonight?
Today?
Okay, a couple.
Did any of you man, not thatmany?
Raise them high, be proud.
Gen X.
Okay, a couple.
Wait, where'd all the Gen Xersgo?
(16:59):
They're out skateboarding,listening to Nirvana or
something.
Uh please tell me that one ofyou read this not as psyche, but
as psyche?
Anybody?
Okay, thank you.
Okay, good.
At the 8:30, that joke bombed.
Nobody got that joke.
It was terrible.
Okay, psyche?
Okay, uh, I'm getting warm inhere.
Moving on.
(17:19):
So psyche means soul or spirit.
That's Greek.
It's a Greek word, so that's theGreek way of thinking about it.
But again, in this more Jewishway of thinking that I want to
offer today, uh, psyche, soul,spirit, I'm gonna skip this,
means the whole self.
It means your inner being, butalso your outer being, how your
life is lived out, your verylife lived out in real time and
(17:39):
place, not just after you die.
And it's the manner in whichyour very life is lived out here
and now.
So Ben is an old soul because helives like that, right?
If you're a teacher, liketeaching is my soul's work.
I love to teach.
You might drive through aneighborhood that has like a
good, it's got some soul to it,right?
John Mayer's guitar riffs havesome soul to them.
(18:00):
You know what I'm saying?
My brother and I, we have these,like I think what I would call
it, his name's Chris, we havethese great soul-to-soul
conversations.
Mostly it's Instagram reelsgoing back and forth, but you
know, it's still pretty deep.
But we really do have thisgreat, yeah.
Because soul really means likehow you live your life, how your
life is lived out in theordinary ways of of life.
(18:23):
So there you go.
So your whole soul is your wholeself.
Eugene Peterson translates thisverse.
Here's how he says, I love it.
He says, Hey, what good would itdo to get everything you want,
but lose you?
The real you, the true you, yourlife.
What could you ever trade to getyour life back?
(18:46):
And if it's not a rhetoricalquestion, what could you give?
Or what could someone offer youand you to give them your very
life, the truest sense of whoyou are?
What's that worth?
What would you trade for that?
The real and true you.
Yeah, what's that worth?
By the way, the word wholeworld.
Oh, actually, let me say thistoo.
(19:07):
So maybe losing your soul isn'tabout some like post-death,
eternal damnation, or whatever.
Maybe losing your soul is um agradual withering of your life
in every way.
Which, if you think about thatreally means, that's that's
really uh much more ominous.
(19:27):
Your life just to wither away,and you never live out your
fullness of who you are or meantto be or what you found joy in.
Maybe that's the more sinisterthing to watch your life
gradually wither away.
Inner life and of course yourouter life.
So Jesus asks, What's it worth?
The whole world, by the way,what does that mean?
(19:50):
Well, it means a lot of things.
It can mean your earthlypossessions or any of them.
What would you give for a soul?
Could you trade a Porsche 9-11?
Would that be an equivalenttrade, a fair trade?
A pinky, yeah.
Uh, it's wealth, it's power,it's honor, it's status.
Would you trade all of thesethings?
Would they be equal value of asoul?
A life, your true you, politicalgain, all human striving for
(20:15):
success, security, approval, thesum of all human desires.
If you could have all yourdesires met, would you trade
your life for that?
Many of us do.
I mean, we live lives where wetrade things back and forth.
(20:37):
That's what we do.
Would you trade eight to tenhours of your day for that job?
With that salary?
Is it worth it?
Is it an equal trade?
Would you trade three hoursbefore bedtime?
And that whatever you would do,would you trade that to just
look at your phone for threehours?
Is that an equal trade?
(20:58):
Would you trade your life, yourfamily, your spouse, your kids,
the house, the community?
Would you trade all of that torespond to that Facebook message
from that old high schoolsweetheart of yours who wants to
reconnect?
What's a fair trade for one'slife?
Their true self, their fullself, their full whole life?
(21:20):
Is the whole world worth it?
Jesus is asking, what good is itif you gain all of this but lose
yourself?
What good is it?
What's the value of a soul?
I can tell you the value of aPorsche 911, or of the Nintendo
Entertainment System, the valueof a home.
I can weigh those.
(21:41):
I can tell you what they whatthey cost.
But the things that weigh themost in life can't be weighed.
I'll say it again.
The things that weigh the mostin life, they can't be weighed.
Your life, the tree, you can'tweigh that.
What's the value of that?
I'd give anything to go back towhen my kids were little.
(22:05):
And um, just for a moment, youknow.
Like at the summertime whenthere's little kids at home and
Katie's making lunch and we'rewatching movies and hanging out,
I'd give anything to go back.
Like, what's that worth?
I'd give anything to go back.
Maybe to this moment here.
Yeah.
I'd go, I'd give anything to goback to that moment.
(22:25):
The funny thing is, too, beforeyou think, oh, Pastor Ryan's got
a perfect life and family.
No, just before I took thisphoto, I was all I was laying on
the floor because I was dogtired, I was exhausted, I was
crabby, I was maybe yelling, andthey all dog piled on me and
like saved me from myself.
You know what I mean?
That's what kids do sometimesbecause kids don't know any
better.
And I was like, oh, don't be anidiot, Ryan.
(22:46):
Snap out of it and take thispicture.
Yeah.
What would you give for a momentlike this?
Or how about this one?
I my boys, the two knuckleheadsin the bottom, are now in
college and they were both homelast weekend for a brief moment,
and we were all hanging out, andthen me and Katie went to go do
something, and then they all,the four of them, disappeared.
I'm like, where'd they go?
And I couldn't find them, so I'mlike, are they downstairs
(23:07):
together?
So I ran downstairs and Ithought I saw this.
They're all watching a movie,and they have the dog down
there.
I was like, nobody move.
I'm gonna sneak out of herequietly so I don't ruin this
beautiful moment, you know.
Yeah, what would you pay for amoment like that?
What'd you give?
What would I give for that?
Yeah, yesterday I was at awedding.
(23:28):
We were in a wedding in Mora,and uh, Cassie and Joshua got
married, and I was doing theceremony, and it got me, man,
because they came walking theaisle, and then the first
bridesmaid and the first groom'sthe sister, and then you know,
one of the friends, and then thesecond one was another sister,
and both sisters were walkingdown the aisle, just bawling
with joy.
(23:49):
And I was like, good gosh, youguys are killing me.
I'm starting, I start crying.
I'm trying to like the mom'scrying, the dad of the bride is
crying.
I'm the pastor, I can't cry uphere.
Yeah, what would you give for amoment like that?
What about this moment?
You know, I bet if if I fastforwarded to 20 years from now,
and I said and I said to your 20year from now self, hey, what
(24:11):
would you give to go back tothat day when your body was 20
years younger and you had thesefolks here?
What would you give?
You might give a lot for that.
Because those things can't bevalued.
I mean, what's the value ofthose things?
Those things are probably truly,truly invaluable.
Yeah.
What is the real you worth?
(24:32):
Not the you that others want youto be, not the you the world's
trying to lure you into being,not the one the commercials are
trying to sell you, not the oneyour parents want you to be.
What's the real what's the valueof you, the real you living your
life?
What's that worth?
You could also reverse engineerthis and ask it this way um look
(24:54):
at it look at a life that's beendestroyed.
And what would you give to goback?
I have a friend who had a lot ofthings, had it all, and gave it
all away, and he had thisaffair, and it wrecked
everything.
I'm like, dude, whoa.
I wanted to ask him, like, whatwould you give to go back?
And like undo that and and liveit out differently.
(25:17):
What'd you give?
What's a life that's beendestroyed?
Like, what's a life of addictionreally what's it like?
What does it feel like to not bethe true you, not not be free to
live out your true self becauseyou're uh addicted to whatever
it is?
What's it like to live a lifefull of fear?
You you're hamstrung to likemake any decision because you're
so afraid?
(25:37):
Maybe a life of numbing, ormaybe a life of living
vicariously through your ownkids because your life was
miserable when you were young.
What's that like?
To not live is the true freeyou.
I think Jesus is certainlyimplying there's nothing
equivalent to the value of thetrue you being lived out.
(25:59):
Authentic you.
There's no value that'sequivalent.
Nothing.
Here are five things toconsider.
Um what is your true life?
What does it mean for you tolive out your true life, to be
your true self?
Not the false self, but the trueyou.
Who God made you to be, designedyou to be, skilled you to be,
(26:21):
gifted you to be?
Not the commercials begging youto be, not your friends, not
your family, not the society bebecause you gotta go upstream to
find this.
You have to go upstream forsure.
Against the stream.
What's your true life?
And what does it feel like tolive that?
Or maybe you don't know.
What what would what it what uhif you imagine it would look
what would it let me ask thatagain.
(26:42):
Uh what yeah, what does it feellike to live that in your
imagination, I guess?
Um and how does it feel like towither on the inside?
What does it look like to livein accord with who you're meant
to be?
Two more, if this will work.
(27:04):
There we go.
Uh can you feel it when you misswhat you're designed to be or
designed to do?
What does it feel like when youhit that and you don't miss
that?
Yeah.
What does that feel like?
The great Ernest Becker saysthis most of our life is in
large part a rationalization ofour failure to find out who we
(27:25):
really are.
What our basic strength is, andwhat thing it is we're meant to
give, uh meant to work upon theworld.
Most of us don't know what we'rehere doing.
And most of us don't even ask.
My friend Tom Tyler at the atthe earlier gathering, we left
this.
He goes, That's a hard question,Ryan.
I go, I know, but at least askit.
Because most of us don't know.
(27:46):
And our life is arationalization of our failure
to find out who we were reallymeant to be.
So, uh, Americans are morelikely to regret the things they
don't do than the things theyhave done.
So, for example, did you knowthat 40% of Americans regret not
speaking their mind?
They live in fear of rejectionor they're living in the false,
(28:07):
whatever.
But they're not they're notliving out their full lives.
36 regret not visiting friendsand family enough.
35 regret not pursuing theirdreams.
Parker Palmer, who wrote a greatbook, I love this.
You can read his book.
It's called uh Let Your LifeSpeak.
I've got a copy if you want toborrow it, but get one on
Amazon, read it.
It's like not very long.
(28:27):
It's great to figure out who youare, what you're here to do.
He says, if we are unfaithful toour true self, we'll extract a
price from others.
We'll make promises we can'tkeep, build houses from flimsy
stuff, conjure dreams thatdevolve into nightmares, and
other people will suffer becauseof it if we are unfaithful to
(28:47):
our true selves.
Yeah, we'll wreak havoc onothers by not living out who
we're meant to be.
There's no value for that.
That's equal trade.
So here's how you find out whoyou truly are.
I think to begin, at leastasking this question, I'll close
with this.
How do you find out who you'remeant to be, what you're
supposed to do?
Well, one, you could ask whatmakes you come alive.
(29:08):
What do you do that makes yousort of come alive?
And maybe you're done whenyou're done with it, you're
tired, but you're like a goodtired.
Like, what is it that you feellike alive when you're doing it?
That doesn't suck the soul outof you.
It feels the opposite ofwithering, you know?
It feels like enlivening.
What is that?
You could also ask this way uhwhat angers you?
(29:28):
What just gets you?
Because here's the thing manytimes anger is an infringement
of a boundary of something youvalue.
So I'll say that again.
Many times anger is a sign thatthere's been an infringement on
a boundary that you value.
So if domestic violence uh abuseuh angers you, yeah, that's
because you value not, you know,uh wholeness and healing and
(29:52):
healthy relationships.
So that if that angers you,that's a sign that you value not
that, right?
What things anger you?
And maybe do something aboutthat then.
Get involved.
How about this question?
What scares you?
Many times we have this sense oflike, you know, we're so afraid
because our brains trying toprotect ourselves, and like the
soul knows it wants to go downthis road, but you're sort of
(30:12):
scared and like, yeah, maybeit's a sign you should do that.
Because in the thing that scaresyou is something valuable.
There's gold down there.
You gotta go find it.
What scares you?
How about this?
How can you just serve others?
Look around.
Where do you see need?
Go serve somebody.
Go do something to help.
Go volunteer at Rivers of Hope.
Help Ben and Isabel on Sundaymornings.
(30:33):
Go read children, like I saidlast week.
There's all kinds of things.
But how about this?
If possessions meant nothing toyou, nothing.
What would you do with yourlife?
How would you spend your days?
If possessions, houses, cars,money, that meant nothing to
you.
I know I'm an idealist, but whatwould it what would you do?
Because Jesus says, those whotry to save their lives will
(30:54):
lose it, but those who lose itfor my sake will find it.
The answer is to give your lifeto something greater than you.
And Jesus tells them it's theway of the cross.
Give your life as a sacrificefor others.
That, in that you will findmeaning.
So do that.
Follow Jesus all the way to thecross.
(31:16):
It may not make you healthy,wealthy, and wise, but it'll
give you substance in your life,make your life meaningful, full
of joy and goodness and hope andrestoration.
It'll give you a good soul.
Do you hear me?
Central Lutheran Church, maythis question sink deep into
your soul.
May it haunt your dreams.
(31:37):
Yeah, what good is it forsomeone to gain the whole world,
all the things, but losethemselves, the real them?
And what could you everexchange?
What could you give to get backthe real you?
What's of equal trade there?
May you hear this question.
May you indeed follow Jesus allthe way to the cross.
(31:58):
Amen.
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