September 2, 2024 • 26 mins
Have you ever felt the sting of betrayal so deep that forgiveness seemed impossible? On this episode of the Certain Success Podcast, we share gripping personal stories of betrayal that tested our faith and resilience. We tackle the complexities of forgiveness in the business world, drawing from profound biblical teachings to highlight the importance of resolving conflicts before seeking spiritual peace. By sharing our experiences of surviving and forgiving acts of deceit, we emphasize the transformative power of letting go and the distinction between forgiveness and reconciliation.
Holding onto grudges harms no one more than ourselves. Through poignant anecdotes—like the heartbreaking story of a family member who passed away without reconciling and the life-changing advice from a friend on releasing anger—we illustrate the immense personal and spiritual growth that comes with forgiveness. Transitioning to the professional realm, we recount tales of betrayal, such as a significant embezzlement, and stress the necessity of self-reflection and forgiveness in business. Finally, we acknowledge our imperfections and encourage embracing them through faith in Christ, transforming our brokenness into a beautiful journey of redemption and growth.
During this episode, we mentioned a great little book on forgiveness.
The author is Rodney Hogue. Here is a link to that book
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003UBEWW8/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Hey guys, welcome back to the Certain Success
Podcast, Matt and Joe.
Here and today we are going totalk about forgiveness, and
specifically forgiveness in thecontext of business
relationships.
And if you live long enough inthis world, and in the business
(00:23):
world too uh, people are goingto let you down, and some of
those people are going to letyou down in ways that are pretty
devastating.
Um, we were talking aboutcalling this forgiving the
unforgivable.
And what'd you say, joe?
When, when, when trust failsand it's a really important
(00:44):
subject because, you know,forgiveness is most important
when forgiveness is hard.
And we, joe and I, were talkingabout instances where our lives
were thrown into chaos.
And you know, when somebodydoes something devastating in
(01:23):
the business space, it can alsobe, you know, financially
devastating.
It can be.
From my past, it actually sortof confused me to a point where
I lost my grip on what I thoughtwas true, right, because here's
(01:43):
a person that I trustedintimately, that I thought I
knew, and you wake up one dayand find out you didn't know
that person at all, and that'sbad.
But what's really bad about itis you start to doubt yourself.
You're like, wait a minute.
I thought this was myunderstanding of the world as I
thought I knew it, and thatisn't true.
(02:04):
So what else isn't?
Speaker 2 (02:05):
true, pretty deep.
Speaker 1 (02:14):
So what are your thoughts on this, Joe?
Speaker 2 (02:16):
I think everyone is probably resonating with the
fact that if you've lived longenough, someone has hurt you
Heck, not just in business, butour family can do the same thing
.
You just have a level of trustand you don't doubt that trust
and then when it happens, itjust smacks you down, it hurts
and it goes deep.
And I think that's the momentsin our lives when we go to God
(02:41):
and we're like you know now what?
What am I supposed to do?
And the cool thing about theBible is there's a lot of
scripture about forgiveness, andreally there's.
You know, I'm not picking outone particular scripture, but it
speaks of before you can cometo the altar, before you can
come to the Father, if you havean individual that you need to
(03:08):
forgive, don't give youroffering until you go and
forgive them.
You know, take care of it.
And the thing is is it's onlyeating us up.
It.
You know most, most the time,the other person doesn't realize
the kind of pain you're in.
It's us and we're beatingourselves up through that
process of healing.
(03:29):
And forgiveness doesn't meanyou forget, I mean we're human,
but it does mean that you'vemoved on.
Speaker 1 (03:40):
Yeah, I read a great little book on forgiveness in a
coaching program that I was in awhile back, and tiny little
book like 50 pages.
We'll we'll link to that bookbecause I can't remember the
author's name, but we'll link tothat book in the show notes,
and it did a really good job,though, of explaining what you
(04:02):
just talked about about.
Good job, though, of explainingwhat you just talked about
about, I think.
I think we all struggle with theline between forgiveness and
forgetting then, and and theline between we think that
forgiveness means I have to letthat person back in my life
right and those are not the samething, and I always really
(04:24):
struggled with that um, andanyway, that little book really
helped me understand how to makesense of that and to have gave
me confidence in knowing that Ican completely forgive and not
let that person back into mylife necessarily.
(04:47):
And another really interestingthing that I learned from that
experience was levels offorgiveness.
So if you have a devastatingpain, a hurt that's that deep,
um, I think we also all havethis sense that I can, I can
(05:09):
pray that away and just likesnap my fingers and it's going
to be gone.
And if that doesn't happen,then like I'm a bad person
because I can't get thisforgiveness to happen, right,
and so we're just talking aboutsort of this layers of like.
Maybe you know it might takeyears, but hopefully not, but
you know the effort towardforgiveness, the effort towards
(05:33):
offering it up and asking theLord to take it, and you know,
and then we take it back andthen you feel guilty for that
and that's that circle.
So just an interesting you knowapproach to you know
understanding more about that.
Speaker 2 (05:47):
It's.
It's a very special thing tosee Like, let's say, you're
watching the news and it's afamily that's standing in a
courthouse looking at theindividual, the drunk driver
that just killed their son ordaughter or spouse, and that
family gets a chance to speak tothat guilty individual and to
(06:09):
hear the mother or father say weforgive you, we miss our
daughter so much or we miss ourson so much, but we forgive you.
That is grace in action.
That doesn't mean they're evergoing to forget the kind of pain
that that individual brought totheir family, but that is what
(06:32):
Christ asks of us.
In fact, it's Matthew 18, 21through 22.
It says Peter came to him andsaid to him Lord, how often will
my brother sin against me?
And I forgive him?
As many as seven times.
Jesus said to him I do not sayto you seven times, but 77 times
70 times seven.
Speaker 1 (06:55):
Yeah, and I you know I recently heard a really
interesting explanation of thatthat there's and I'm going to,
I'm going to destroy this, soforgive me if you, if you're
listening to this and you knowthe detail, but I'd never heard
it described this way.
But there's something uh, uh,related in that era to 70 times
seven being like what we wouldconsider infinity.
(07:18):
Um is the way he was exploringand I thought, man, that that's
so interesting to think about itthat way, because I'm like why
did he pick that multiple?
What is that supposed to mean?
But apparently in their culturethat effectively meant infinity
.
Speaker 2 (07:34):
Right?
Well, it's interesting, youjust said that.
So the verse I just read to youit says but 77 times.
And there's other verses, know.
So you, nib, you've got themessage, got king james version.
They all write that verysimilar and I agree with you and
I've heard other sermons aboutit.
Really isn't about seven times70 or seven times um 70 or
(08:00):
whatever it is it's, it's, it'sthe it's for always.
You're gonna always.
It's a lot, it's a lot youshould forgive a lot.
Speaker 1 (08:12):
Um, well, and I mean, let's go back to where you were
a minute ago, the understandingthat the lack of forgiveness
the only person you're hurtingis.
You right, it's it's you thatit's eating.
It's not, it's it's you thatit's eating.
It's not.
It's not the other person thatit's eating.
Um, you know, if you decide,hey, I need to hold on to this
for a while, um, I had another.
I had another good friend it'sprobably, wow, 10 or 15 years
(08:36):
ago explain this idea to me.
And he, he was describing whenhe he was sort of counseling a
friend over a hurt like this,and the friend was incredibly
upset and, you know, didn't seemlike there was going to be any
end to them being upset anytimesoon.
(08:56):
And my friend said to him, hesaid, he said well, he said, how
long?
How long do you want to hold onto this?
For it was almost like the wayhe phrased, it was like it was
going to be on his schedule.
He was like you know, like, doyou want?
We're talking about a week, or,you know, two weeks, 11 days a
month, like a year, like, let meknow, I'll come back to the
(09:20):
conversation with you wheneverthat end of that is.
But there was something aboutthe way he framed that that
makes you go oh wait, what?
Like?
Okay, that changes myperspective on this whole thing.
Like it is a decision thatyou're making.
Like how long are you going tohold on to this, or would you
(09:41):
rather just let this hot potatogo?
Speaker 2 (09:48):
hold on to this, or would you rather just let this
hot potato go?
And it's what's sad, matt, andit it probably happens more
frequently than most peoplerealize, but I have a family
member, uh, that went to theirdeathbed and drew a line in the
sand, 35, 40 years before theydied, with an individual they
wouldn't forgive and it wastheir sibling and never spoke to
(10:08):
them again.
Now when my mom died uh, it was, it was her sister, who she
didn't speak to, and her sistercalled me and she's crying,
saying we should have, we shouldhave made things work, we
should have made it better.
It's my fault.
It's like why did any of thathappen 40 years ago?
(10:32):
And it really comes down to oneword Pride.
Speaker 1 (10:39):
Yeah, and stubbornness.
And you know I have somedifficult ones in my world where
I think, lord, help me.
I think that I've completelyforgiven these people, but not
let them back into my life.
(11:00):
And, like I said, I thinkthat's like an ongoing struggle
and conversation with the Lordthat you have to have to go like
, wait, okay, did I you know?
Is it really?
Am I really doing this right?
Did I really forgive himcompletely, even though I know
that I'm not comfortable withthat person in my life?
What does that look like?
(11:22):
And even leaving the door opento go, well, I would love for
that person to be back in mylife.
But then it's like, well, whatare the parameters of that?
What does that even look like?
And is the pain, the sort oflayers of scarring over that
pain, so fragile that you'reafraid of that?
(11:46):
That's the word, right, thefear.
That fear is always the word.
But, um, like, you're afraid tolet that person back in.
And you know my uh.
I have someone close to me whohad a big break with their
sister and they have completelyuh, not maybe not completely,
(12:10):
but they've reunited and they'rein a relationship and they're
spending lots of time together.
It's so impressive to watchwhat's kind of like you were
saying about the, the people whoforgave the person that killed
their son or daughter orwhatever, but like when you
witness amazing forgiveness,it's, it's something, it has to
(12:37):
be Christ.
Speaker 2 (12:38):
Yeah, and our greatest example of forgiveness
is is the savior of the worldwho, after being crushed and put
up on a crucifix to die for us,before he said it was finished,
(12:59):
he said, father, forgive them,for they don't know what they're
doing, and he still wasforgiving those that were, you
know, going against him.
And and it's it's like I said asecond ago, it's it's our pride
.
A lot of times we want to getback, we want to get even.
We want to show them.
(13:20):
I'll show you and and it showyou, and our faith walk says no,
you pray for that person andyou pray for healing in yourself
and quit pointing your finger.
Point at yourself first and say, okay, what do I got to do to
(13:44):
change, and whether you'reabsolutely innocent in something
that has truly failed you, ahuman that has failed you.
You got to, you got to look,you got to look to Christ and
you got to go deep.
Speaker 1 (14:01):
And it's sometimes it's it's the exact opposite of
our human desire well, let'sturn this conversation to the
the business side, because, youknow, because we're business
guys and this is a businesspodcast, but you know we were
talking about examples in ourlives earlier off the mic and
(14:28):
you know you always have to becareful to protect those
relationships and all that stuffwhen we're recording.
But you know, just as anexample, you know, we have a
client and this is another storythat you might not know, joe
but we have a client that had anemployee embezzle a lot of
(14:54):
money well into the six figuresfor a business that's not that
large.
I mean, it was a devastatingfinancial loss and also, again,
this relationship loss.
We go, man, this is a personthat I trusted and I think you
(15:18):
and I both have somesimilarities in our stories
there.
But, um, but there's, you know,there's a different reality.
When I don't know that it hurtsany more or less, it's just
there's something different whenit's when it's a business
situation and it could threatenthe whole business.
Speaker 2 (15:37):
You know, yeah, the specific yeah, I mean, um, six
figures is a lot and whensomeone has done that to your
small business, you that's goingto be a difficult wall to climb
still comes back to taking astep back and and really praying
(16:03):
for God's patience through thatsituation.
It happened to my wife and I inour businesses that we've run
where someone that was a friendthat we brought into the
business they needed a job badly.
We trained them on the businesshere, go do this and you'll do
well.
They did so well.
(16:23):
They embezzled us and theyeventually on the business.
Here Go do this and you'll dowell.
They did so well, theyembezzled us and they eventually
took the business.
So that's a tough one and tothis day, you know, when Stacy
and I are making decisions, wethink about things like that.
You know allowing people tocome into that space in our
lives that we've already beenhurt before and I know you've
(16:47):
gone through that as well yeah,yeah, it's.
Speaker 1 (16:52):
You know, and I guess this is one of those podcasts
that, like, I'm not exactly surewhere the end is and where it's
going and what we want todeliver.
But but you know, if you'relistening to this, I guess we
just wanted you to know that, ifyou're dealing with the
situation like what we'redescribing here, that you're not
(17:14):
alone, that this happens,unfortunately, maybe not to
everybody, but it was in somelevel.
I guess it does happen toeverybody.
Maybe not to everybody, but itwas in some level.
I guess it does happen toeverybody.
You know, business relationshipsbreak and when business
relationships break, just like adivorce, you know people do
things that they maybe wouldn'thave otherwise done, maybe they
(17:36):
shouldn't have done, maybethey're going to regret those
things, and you know all kindsof bad things happen and you
know you're going to get throughit.
And that thing you hate to hearwhen things are complete chaos.
You hate to hear this.
Everything happens for a reason, stuff, but everything happens
(18:00):
for a reason.
And, joe, when you were talkingabout you know you're the
person that embezzled from youand then kind of took the
business away from you, so tospeak.
Um, you know I was thinkingwell, that's one way for God to
tell you that it's time to moveto the next day, to pivot to the
next day.
Speaker 2 (18:17):
Oh yeah, I mean, you, you're just you're, you're,
you're in a cadence, you'rerunning, you think everything's
going great.
And, um, you know, I, Iremember it almost as if it was
yesterday and this is 20 yearsago, and it was time to start
getting gifts for the kids forChristmas.
And my wife is like, um, wedon't have a lot for the kids
(18:42):
this year.
I'm like, why not?
The business is doing great.
And we started looking at thebooks and we're like, uh-oh,
this doesn't one and one is notequaling two.
Something's wrong.
And that's when, the realizationof uncovering what was going on
in our financial life, when youtake your eye off the ball and
you think everything's working,just what, you know, just fine,
(19:06):
um, it's those little shock andawes that happen in our lives
that wake us up.
And and that that's how, youknow, we became a little bit
more aware of when we're doingbusiness and who we choose to
have in our lives.
And and on top of it, and again, like I said a minute ago, we
(19:27):
have to point to ourselves too.
We all are individuals in thisgame of life and we could throw
all the blame at someone, but wetook our eye off the ball.
We just didn't realize what wasgoing on.
It taught us to be a little bitmore diligent in our business.
Speaker 1 (19:51):
Yeah, I mean gosh, the examples are all over the
place, but I think where itlands is on our witness, our
(20:18):
witness.
We were talking about theexample of the parents that lost
a child but forgave the personresponsible and how that when
you look at that witness, you'rejust in awe of their faith and
their willingness to forgive andyou see that and go.
That's what I want to be.
You see that and go.
That's that's what I want to be.
And when you had walked througheverything you walked through,
joe, I'm sure that you walkedthrough it with a grace that
when there are probably peoplethat were affected by the way
(20:40):
you handled it, at least I'msure you hope that that's true.
And and you know in, in some ofthe cases that have happened to
me in recent years, um, youknow, I, I know that's true,
like I, there are lots of peoplethat were involved who probably
hate my guts and because of youknow, misinformation and all
(21:03):
these things.
But the people that reallyinvolved, who probably hate my
guts and because of you know,misinformation and blah, blah,
blah, all these things, but thepeople that really knew what was
going on know that I handled itwith grace and forgiveness and
to me, like that means more thaneverything else.
It's just you know how, how didyou handle it?
When you're, you know, face toface with the Lord, what's he
(21:24):
going to say about how youhandled it?
Um?
Speaker 2 (21:27):
so, yeah, I think one of the biggest responsibilities
of being a Christian is iswe're always being watched.
People are struggling.
On the other side there's a lotof people that haven't accepted
Christ.
They know there's a God.
They're not sure about Christ.
(21:48):
Maybe they're not even surethere's a God.
They struggle, but they knowthat you're a Christian.
They know that through some ofyour posts and social media,
whatever it might be, know thatthrough some of your posts and
social media, whatever it mightbe, they know you're a follower
of Christ.
And it's in these moments whenbusiness crashes, a family
member is lost due to someone'snegligence, when a marriage is
(22:12):
broken, when any trust is broken.
I think that that's the timeswhere people really watch us,
when we're kicking ass andtaking names and life is good.
That's not what they're lookingfor.
They want to see how you handlethings in the darkest of your
(22:34):
days.
And there was a song when I wasa kid.
In fact, it's in the book.
It's called they Will Know weAre Christians by Our Love.
I remember that song, sure, andmaybe second third grade when I
learned that song.
(22:54):
And it's crazy, that song playsin my head a lot still, at 60
years of age.
It's like if the world can seeme.
Obviously God is watching froma much better view.
He knows my heart and he wantsto see how I react to every
(23:18):
single jarring moment of thislife, from the good days to the
bad days.
And that's the difficult partfor a lot of people to realize
is yesterday we talked aboutpivot.
The day before that we talkedabout the pause.
Today is basically about themiddle of the storm, and that
(23:42):
storm is when nothing makessense.
People that we love and care for, people that we've gone to
their celebrations of life,birthdays you know they've had a
new baby, got married.
We were there and then lifehappened and they let us down
and that can be so devastating.
(24:04):
And that's what I believe inour business side of what we,
what you and I do is help peoplethrough that uncertainty and
that's what we want, we willalways want to be in our lives
is how can I be a best example,the best version of myself?
(24:30):
And it's not that we want to befake, it's not like we want to
create or fake an emotion.
We want to be faithful toChrist.
We want to be faithful in ourwalk and say God, take this over
, I can't do it and through thatprocess, if we have someone
that says they really are aChristian because I just
witnessed their Christianity,that's what God wants.
(24:52):
That's what makes God smile.
Speaker 1 (24:55):
Yeah, and I think you know you can't, I don't think
you can leave all of thatwithout acknowledging, uh, all
of the many, many times that Ifailed at that, and maybe you
own that too, and, and you know,it's like you know, if you're
listening to this, like we'renot saying, like we're perfect
(25:17):
by any means, although will saythat you know, I feel like with
every passing year, uh, you getbetter at it, right, you get,
you get we've had a lot ofswings of the bat at this yeah,
and so you start to, um, youstart to get better at your
here's the good news, matt youand I fail at this every day.
Speaker 2 (25:38):
This is life.
It's we're.
We're all're all broken and wecome to this cross of Christ
broken.
What is a?
You know, when you look at abeautiful mosaic, you separate
all that glass.
It just looks like broken glass, but by Christ and his power,
when he brings that glasstogether, it's beautiful, and
(26:00):
that's what we all are.
You know, we have the abilityto turn something that is broken
into something special throughthat relationship with Christ.
Speaker 1 (26:12):
And that, my friend, is a good place to end.
And so, guys, thanks for beingwith us on the Certain Success
Podcast and we'll see you backhere, lickety split.
See you, joe, see you.
Hey guys, welcome back to the Certain Success
Podcast, Matt and Joe.
Here and today we are going totalk about forgiveness, and
specifically forgiveness in thecontext of business
relationships.
And if you live long enough inthis world, and in the business
(00:23):
world too uh, people are goingto let you down, and some of
those people are going to letyou down in ways that are pretty
devastating.
Um, we were talking aboutcalling this forgiving the
unforgivable.
And what'd you say, joe?
When, when, when trust failsand it's a really important
(00:44):
subject because, you know,forgiveness is most important
when forgiveness is hard.
And we, joe and I, were talkingabout instances where our lives
were thrown into chaos.
And you know, when somebodydoes something devastating in
(01:23):
the business space, it can alsobe, you know, financially
devastating.
It can be.
From my past, it actually sortof confused me to a point where
I lost my grip on what I thoughtwas true, right, because here's
(01:43):
a person that I trustedintimately, that I thought I
knew, and you wake up one dayand find out you didn't know
that person at all, and that'sbad.
But what's really bad about itis you start to doubt yourself.
You're like, wait a minute.
I thought this was myunderstanding of the world as I
thought I knew it, and thatisn't true.
(02:04):
So what else isn't?
Speaker 2 (02:05):
true, pretty deep.
Speaker 1 (02:14):
So what are your thoughts on this, Joe?
Speaker 2 (02:16):
I think everyone is probably resonating with the
fact that if you've lived longenough, someone has hurt you
Heck, not just in business, butour family can do the same thing
.
You just have a level of trustand you don't doubt that trust
and then when it happens, itjust smacks you down, it hurts
and it goes deep.
And I think that's the momentsin our lives when we go to God
(02:41):
and we're like you know now what?
What am I supposed to do?
And the cool thing about theBible is there's a lot of
scripture about forgiveness, andreally there's.
You know, I'm not picking outone particular scripture, but it
speaks of before you can cometo the altar, before you can
come to the Father, if you havean individual that you need to
(03:08):
forgive, don't give youroffering until you go and
forgive them.
You know, take care of it.
And the thing is is it's onlyeating us up.
It.
You know most, most the time,the other person doesn't realize
the kind of pain you're in.
It's us and we're beatingourselves up through that
process of healing.
(03:29):
And forgiveness doesn't meanyou forget, I mean we're human,
but it does mean that you'vemoved on.
Speaker 1 (03:40):
Yeah, I read a great little book on forgiveness in a
coaching program that I was in awhile back, and tiny little
book like 50 pages.
We'll we'll link to that bookbecause I can't remember the
author's name, but we'll link tothat book in the show notes,
and it did a really good job,though, of explaining what you
(04:02):
just talked about about.
Good job, though, of explainingwhat you just talked about
about, I think.
I think we all struggle with theline between forgiveness and
forgetting then, and and theline between we think that
forgiveness means I have to letthat person back in my life
right and those are not the samething, and I always really
(04:24):
struggled with that um, andanyway, that little book really
helped me understand how to makesense of that and to have gave
me confidence in knowing that Ican completely forgive and not
let that person back into mylife necessarily.
(04:47):
And another really interestingthing that I learned from that
experience was levels offorgiveness.
So if you have a devastatingpain, a hurt that's that deep,
um, I think we also all havethis sense that I can, I can
(05:09):
pray that away and just likesnap my fingers and it's going
to be gone.
And if that doesn't happen,then like I'm a bad person
because I can't get thisforgiveness to happen, right,
and so we're just talking aboutsort of this layers of like.
Maybe you know it might takeyears, but hopefully not, but
you know the effort towardforgiveness, the effort towards
(05:33):
offering it up and asking theLord to take it, and you know,
and then we take it back andthen you feel guilty for that
and that's that circle.
So just an interesting you knowapproach to you know
understanding more about that.
Speaker 2 (05:47):
It's.
It's a very special thing tosee Like, let's say, you're
watching the news and it's afamily that's standing in a
courthouse looking at theindividual, the drunk driver
that just killed their son ordaughter or spouse, and that
family gets a chance to speak tothat guilty individual and to
(06:09):
hear the mother or father say weforgive you, we miss our
daughter so much or we miss ourson so much, but we forgive you.
That is grace in action.
That doesn't mean they're evergoing to forget the kind of pain
that that individual brought totheir family, but that is what
(06:32):
Christ asks of us.
In fact, it's Matthew 18, 21through 22.
It says Peter came to him andsaid to him Lord, how often will
my brother sin against me?
And I forgive him?
As many as seven times.
Jesus said to him I do not sayto you seven times, but 77 times
70 times seven.
Speaker 1 (06:55):
Yeah, and I you know I recently heard a really
interesting explanation of thatthat there's and I'm going to,
I'm going to destroy this, soforgive me if you, if you're
listening to this and you knowthe detail, but I'd never heard
it described this way.
But there's something uh, uh,related in that era to 70 times
seven being like what we wouldconsider infinity.
(07:18):
Um is the way he was exploringand I thought, man, that that's
so interesting to think about itthat way, because I'm like why
did he pick that multiple?
What is that supposed to mean?
But apparently in their culturethat effectively meant infinity
.
Speaker 2 (07:34):
Right?
Well, it's interesting, youjust said that.
So the verse I just read to youit says but 77 times.
And there's other verses, know.
So you, nib, you've got themessage, got king james version.
They all write that verysimilar and I agree with you and
I've heard other sermons aboutit.
Really isn't about seven times70 or seven times um 70 or
(08:00):
whatever it is it's, it's, it'sthe it's for always.
You're gonna always.
It's a lot, it's a lot youshould forgive a lot.
Speaker 1 (08:12):
Um, well, and I mean, let's go back to where you were
a minute ago, the understandingthat the lack of forgiveness
the only person you're hurtingis.
You right, it's it's you thatit's eating.
It's not, it's it's you thatit's eating.
It's not.
It's not the other person thatit's eating.
Um, you know, if you decide,hey, I need to hold on to this
for a while, um, I had another.
I had another good friend it'sprobably, wow, 10 or 15 years
(08:36):
ago explain this idea to me.
And he, he was describing whenhe he was sort of counseling a
friend over a hurt like this,and the friend was incredibly
upset and, you know, didn't seemlike there was going to be any
end to them being upset anytimesoon.
(08:56):
And my friend said to him, hesaid, he said well, he said, how
long?
How long do you want to hold onto this?
For it was almost like the wayhe phrased, it was like it was
going to be on his schedule.
He was like you know, like, doyou want?
We're talking about a week, or,you know, two weeks, 11 days a
month, like a year, like, let meknow, I'll come back to the
(09:20):
conversation with you wheneverthat end of that is.
But there was something aboutthe way he framed that that
makes you go oh wait, what?
Like?
Okay, that changes myperspective on this whole thing.
Like it is a decision thatyou're making.
Like how long are you going tohold on to this, or would you
(09:41):
rather just let this hot potatogo?
Speaker 2 (09:48):
hold on to this, or would you rather just let this
hot potato go?
And it's what's sad, matt, andit it probably happens more
frequently than most peoplerealize, but I have a family
member, uh, that went to theirdeathbed and drew a line in the
sand, 35, 40 years before theydied, with an individual they
wouldn't forgive and it wastheir sibling and never spoke to
(10:08):
them again.
Now when my mom died uh, it was, it was her sister, who she
didn't speak to, and her sistercalled me and she's crying,
saying we should have, we shouldhave made things work, we
should have made it better.
It's my fault.
It's like why did any of thathappen 40 years ago?
(10:32):
And it really comes down to oneword Pride.
Speaker 1 (10:39):
Yeah, and stubbornness.
And you know I have somedifficult ones in my world where
I think, lord, help me.
I think that I've completelyforgiven these people, but not
let them back into my life.
(11:00):
And, like I said, I thinkthat's like an ongoing struggle
and conversation with the Lordthat you have to have to go like
, wait, okay, did I you know?
Is it really?
Am I really doing this right?
Did I really forgive himcompletely, even though I know
that I'm not comfortable withthat person in my life?
What does that look like?
(11:22):
And even leaving the door opento go, well, I would love for
that person to be back in mylife.
But then it's like, well, whatare the parameters of that?
What does that even look like?
And is the pain, the sort oflayers of scarring over that
pain, so fragile that you'reafraid of that?
(11:46):
That's the word, right, thefear.
That fear is always the word.
But, um, like, you're afraid tolet that person back in.
And you know my uh.
I have someone close to me whohad a big break with their
sister and they have completelyuh, not maybe not completely,
(12:10):
but they've reunited and they'rein a relationship and they're
spending lots of time together.
It's so impressive to watchwhat's kind of like you were
saying about the, the people whoforgave the person that killed
their son or daughter orwhatever, but like when you
witness amazing forgiveness,it's, it's something, it has to
(12:37):
be Christ.
Speaker 2 (12:38):
Yeah, and our greatest example of forgiveness
is is the savior of the worldwho, after being crushed and put
up on a crucifix to die for us,before he said it was finished,
(12:59):
he said, father, forgive them,for they don't know what they're
doing, and he still wasforgiving those that were, you
know, going against him.
And and it's it's like I said asecond ago, it's it's our pride
.
A lot of times we want to getback, we want to get even.
We want to show them.
(13:20):
I'll show you and and it showyou, and our faith walk says no,
you pray for that person andyou pray for healing in yourself
and quit pointing your finger.
Point at yourself first and say, okay, what do I got to do to
(13:44):
change, and whether you'reabsolutely innocent in something
that has truly failed you, ahuman that has failed you.
You got to, you got to look,you got to look to Christ and
you got to go deep.
Speaker 1 (14:01):
And it's sometimes it's it's the exact opposite of
our human desire well, let'sturn this conversation to the
the business side, because, youknow, because we're business
guys and this is a businesspodcast, but you know we were
talking about examples in ourlives earlier off the mic and
(14:28):
you know you always have to becareful to protect those
relationships and all that stuffwhen we're recording.
But you know, just as anexample, you know, we have a
client and this is another storythat you might not know, joe
but we have a client that had anemployee embezzle a lot of
(14:54):
money well into the six figuresfor a business that's not that
large.
I mean, it was a devastatingfinancial loss and also, again,
this relationship loss.
We go, man, this is a personthat I trusted and I think you
(15:18):
and I both have somesimilarities in our stories
there.
But, um, but there's, you know,there's a different reality.
When I don't know that it hurtsany more or less, it's just
there's something different whenit's when it's a business
situation and it could threatenthe whole business.
Speaker 2 (15:37):
You know, yeah, the specific yeah, I mean, um, six
figures is a lot and whensomeone has done that to your
small business, you that's goingto be a difficult wall to climb
still comes back to taking astep back and and really praying
(16:03):
for God's patience through thatsituation.
It happened to my wife and I inour businesses that we've run
where someone that was a friendthat we brought into the
business they needed a job badly.
We trained them on the businesshere, go do this and you'll do
well.
They did so well.
(16:23):
They embezzled us and theyeventually on the business.
Here Go do this and you'll dowell.
They did so well, theyembezzled us and they eventually
took the business.
So that's a tough one and tothis day, you know, when Stacy
and I are making decisions, wethink about things like that.
You know allowing people tocome into that space in our
lives that we've already beenhurt before and I know you've
(16:47):
gone through that as well yeah,yeah, it's.
Speaker 1 (16:52):
You know, and I guess this is one of those podcasts
that, like, I'm not exactly surewhere the end is and where it's
going and what we want todeliver.
But but you know, if you'relistening to this, I guess we
just wanted you to know that, ifyou're dealing with the
situation like what we'redescribing here, that you're not
(17:14):
alone, that this happens,unfortunately, maybe not to
everybody, but it was in somelevel.
I guess it does happen toeverybody.
Maybe not to everybody, but itwas in some level.
I guess it does happen toeverybody.
You know, business relationshipsbreak and when business
relationships break, just like adivorce, you know people do
things that they maybe wouldn'thave otherwise done, maybe they
(17:36):
shouldn't have done, maybethey're going to regret those
things, and you know all kindsof bad things happen and you
know you're going to get throughit.
And that thing you hate to hearwhen things are complete chaos.
You hate to hear this.
Everything happens for a reason, stuff, but everything happens
(18:00):
for a reason.
And, joe, when you were talkingabout you know you're the
person that embezzled from youand then kind of took the
business away from you, so tospeak.
Um, you know I was thinkingwell, that's one way for God to
tell you that it's time to moveto the next day, to pivot to the
next day.
Speaker 2 (18:17):
Oh yeah, I mean, you, you're just you're, you're,
you're in a cadence, you'rerunning, you think everything's
going great.
And, um, you know, I, Iremember it almost as if it was
yesterday and this is 20 yearsago, and it was time to start
getting gifts for the kids forChristmas.
And my wife is like, um, wedon't have a lot for the kids
(18:42):
this year.
I'm like, why not?
The business is doing great.
And we started looking at thebooks and we're like, uh-oh,
this doesn't one and one is notequaling two.
Something's wrong.
And that's when, the realizationof uncovering what was going on
in our financial life, when youtake your eye off the ball and
you think everything's working,just what, you know, just fine,
(19:06):
um, it's those little shock andawes that happen in our lives
that wake us up.
And and that that's how, youknow, we became a little bit
more aware of when we're doingbusiness and who we choose to
have in our lives.
And and on top of it, and again, like I said a minute ago, we
(19:27):
have to point to ourselves too.
We all are individuals in thisgame of life and we could throw
all the blame at someone, but wetook our eye off the ball.
We just didn't realize what wasgoing on.
It taught us to be a little bitmore diligent in our business.
Speaker 1 (19:51):
Yeah, I mean gosh, the examples are all over the
place, but I think where itlands is on our witness, our
(20:18):
witness.
We were talking about theexample of the parents that lost
a child but forgave the personresponsible and how that when
you look at that witness, you'rejust in awe of their faith and
their willingness to forgive andyou see that and go.
That's what I want to be.
You see that and go.
That's that's what I want to be.
And when you had walked througheverything you walked through,
joe, I'm sure that you walkedthrough it with a grace that
when there are probably peoplethat were affected by the way
(20:40):
you handled it, at least I'msure you hope that that's true.
And and you know in, in some ofthe cases that have happened to
me in recent years, um, youknow, I, I know that's true,
like I, there are lots of peoplethat were involved who probably
hate my guts and because of youknow, misinformation and all
(21:03):
these things.
But the people that reallyinvolved, who probably hate my
guts and because of you know,misinformation and blah, blah,
blah, all these things, but thepeople that really knew what was
going on know that I handled itwith grace and forgiveness and
to me, like that means more thaneverything else.
It's just you know how, how didyou handle it?
When you're, you know, face toface with the Lord, what's he
(21:24):
going to say about how youhandled it?
Um?
Speaker 2 (21:27):
so, yeah, I think one of the biggest responsibilities
of being a Christian is iswe're always being watched.
People are struggling.
On the other side there's a lotof people that haven't accepted
Christ.
They know there's a God.
They're not sure about Christ.
(21:48):
Maybe they're not even surethere's a God.
They struggle, but they knowthat you're a Christian.
They know that through some ofyour posts and social media,
whatever it might be, know thatthrough some of your posts and
social media, whatever it mightbe, they know you're a follower
of Christ.
And it's in these moments whenbusiness crashes, a family
member is lost due to someone'snegligence, when a marriage is
(22:12):
broken, when any trust is broken.
I think that that's the timeswhere people really watch us,
when we're kicking ass andtaking names and life is good.
That's not what they're lookingfor.
They want to see how you handlethings in the darkest of your
(22:34):
days.
And there was a song when I wasa kid.
In fact, it's in the book.
It's called they Will Know weAre Christians by Our Love.
I remember that song, sure, andmaybe second third grade when I
learned that song.
(22:54):
And it's crazy, that song playsin my head a lot still, at 60
years of age.
It's like if the world can seeme.
Obviously God is watching froma much better view.
He knows my heart and he wantsto see how I react to every
(23:18):
single jarring moment of thislife, from the good days to the
bad days.
And that's the difficult partfor a lot of people to realize
is yesterday we talked aboutpivot.
The day before that we talkedabout the pause.
Today is basically about themiddle of the storm, and that
(23:42):
storm is when nothing makessense.
People that we love and care for, people that we've gone to
their celebrations of life,birthdays you know they've had a
new baby, got married.
We were there and then lifehappened and they let us down
and that can be so devastating.
(24:04):
And that's what I believe inour business side of what we,
what you and I do is help peoplethrough that uncertainty and
that's what we want, we willalways want to be in our lives
is how can I be a best example,the best version of myself?
(24:30):
And it's not that we want to befake, it's not like we want to
create or fake an emotion.
We want to be faithful toChrist.
We want to be faithful in ourwalk and say God, take this over
, I can't do it and through thatprocess, if we have someone
that says they really are aChristian because I just
witnessed their Christianity,that's what God wants.
(24:52):
That's what makes God smile.
Speaker 1 (24:55):
Yeah, and I think you know you can't, I don't think
you can leave all of thatwithout acknowledging, uh, all
of the many, many times that Ifailed at that, and maybe you
own that too, and, and you know,it's like you know, if you're
listening to this, like we'renot saying, like we're perfect
(25:17):
by any means, although will saythat you know, I feel like with
every passing year, uh, you getbetter at it, right, you get,
you get we've had a lot ofswings of the bat at this yeah,
and so you start to, um, youstart to get better at your
here's the good news, matt youand I fail at this every day.
Speaker 2 (25:38):
This is life.
It's we're.
We're all're all broken and wecome to this cross of Christ
broken.
What is a?
You know, when you look at abeautiful mosaic, you separate
all that glass.
It just looks like broken glass, but by Christ and his power,
when he brings that glasstogether, it's beautiful, and
(26:00):
that's what we all are.
You know, we have the abilityto turn something that is broken
into something special throughthat relationship with Christ.
Speaker 1 (26:12):
And that, my friend, is a good place to end.
And so, guys, thanks for beingwith us on the Certain Success
Podcast and we'll see you backhere, lickety split.
See you, joe, see you.
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