S2-E134 - From Prisoner to Programmer Transforming Adversity into Success - Sean Selby - Champion Mindset Collective

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:02):
There is a young person going going through all those kind of
experiences. I lost my my self esteem, my
self-confidence and really started to Christian who I was
and didn't believe in myself. I had no self worth, didn't
didn't love myself, didn't believe I was lovable.
I thought I was defective as a human being.
I didn't think I was good enough.
I caused irreversible harm to myvictim, his family, his friends,

(00:26):
his community, my family, my friends, my community and
myself. Now as a 20 year old you get
sentenced to life in prison withthe Lebanese.
Non parole means you will definitely not get out with any
Lebanese disagrees and you couldpotentially spend your entire
life in prison. But I got into the working unit
and I got into the prison and I got a job cooking straight away.
Saturday nights is chicken night, roast chicken,
vegetables, gravy and my first chicken I I sent out raw chicken

(00:49):
to the whole prison. This all potential.
Yeah, it's all potential. When I saw no potential, yeah.
And ohh, so went from that, fromthat daily kind of like try and
make it through today mindset just survive today to OK, I have
a little bit of agency. There is the possibility support
has always been on offer. Amazing.
For my whole life. I never accessed it cause I
never asked the mindset at that time.

(01:10):
And that's that prison is wherever that Article 2.
Yeah. So this is like kind of like an
awakening for me. Like, ohh, well, like there's
other opportunities, OK, There'swork, OK.
There's people who will be encouraging and supporting.
And this was a prison officer. It wasn't.
I'd never experienced a prison officer encouraging me and
supporting me and helping me to become better.
Welcome to the Champion Mindset Collective podcast.

(01:31):
I'm your host, Anthony Dyer, andtoday's episode is titled From
Prisoner to Programmer Transforming Adversity into
Success. Our guest today is Sean Selby,
whose remarkable journey is a powerful reminder that our past
does not define our future. Serving eleven years in prison,
Sean made a decision he was going to rebuild his life from

(01:53):
the ground up. He was incarcerated.
He earned 2 diplomas and two grand top grades and mentored
fellow inmates and planted seedsfor a brighter future.
After his release, Sean completed a Bachelor of Business
at Massey University and lead a team of 30 people in Logistics

(02:13):
and manufacturing and discovereda passion fatigue.
Last month he graduated from theCoding Boot Boot Camp and
founded Better Condo, an A I Driven app helping people how to
be more empathetic in their conversations.
Shawn Mentor's Mary's Chip and University students and is about

(02:34):
to start a new chapter as Student Success Lead at Take 2,
using his journey to inspire andempower others.
Outside of work, you'll find himrock climbing, surfing, and
walking his family dog. Short story is a living proof
that transformation is possible,no matter how dark things may

(02:57):
seem. Welcome Sean.
The champion Mindset clicked thepodcast.
Thank you very much, Anthony. Glad to be here.
Thank you for having me. On It's a Pleasure shown before
we get into some meaty questions, I'd like to really
get an understanding and lack ofyour journey in life from
childhood to this point in time.Would you mind sharing with us

(03:18):
you know how that journey has been for you?
Absolutely. So grew up in Auckland, New
Zealand. My parents split up when I was
five years old, which was I guess a hard experience for any
young child to go through. Things for me were a bit tough
from then on, not seeing my dad very often.
I like their father role model in my life.

(03:41):
I did see him but but not that often and I guess not having
that physical presence there is a big thing for a child at that
age and growing up as a multi inEast Auckland.
Lot of pudgy haha and and Asian kids at my school said I went
through primary, intermediate and college.

(04:02):
I guess I always lacked the sense of identity and who I was
and and being part of, I guess people that looked like me and
spoke like me and and I really liked it since I've belonging
and connectedness to to my culture.
So I fuck a puppet to Napoli, which is far north of the North
Island and Tarawa, which is based around the Rotorua region

(04:25):
in the North Island. I only went to my Marai once or
twice before I was five years old.
So I didn't have that connectionto to my land, my funeral, where
I'm from or and my people. So my extended Farno, which was
tough. So I guess, I guess I found a
bit isolated and lacked that, yeah, sense of identity and who
I was. Well, you know, we share the

(04:48):
same story around parents separating at 5 cause I read
through the exactly the same thing.
Yeah. And I can appreciate what they
would have been like for you as well.
Yeah, for me, I saw my dad maybeonce a year and I didn't know my
mom to us 21 totally appreciate where you came from.
Sean, take us back to the beginning.

(05:09):
What was the turning point for you during your because you you
did you did end up in prison. And what was the turning point
during that time that sparked the decision to transform your
life? Yes, I can.
I can take it. Give me a bit more context about
what Yeah led to my time in prison as.
Well, absolutely, yeah. Yeah.

(05:30):
So from a very young age, including, you know, through
being a young person, 9 or 10 years old and, and, and then
going into becoming a teenager, I experienced psychological
abuse, emotional abuse, verbal abuse, physical abuse and sexual
abuse. Hmm.
And so as a young person going, going through all those kind of

(05:51):
experiences, I lost my, my self esteem, hmm, my self-confidence
and really started to question who I was and didn't believe in
myself. I had no self worth, didn't,
didn't love myself, didn't believe I was lovable.
I thought I was defective as a human being.
I didn't think I was good enough.

(06:13):
That was tough. Hmm And also kind of withdraw
into myself. So if I was feeling sad or
lonely or angry or depressed, I,I didn't even have the
confidence to ask people for help.
Hmm. So then everything was
internalised and what I later came to realise was that I was

(06:34):
bottling up all of these emotions for many years.
And around about the age of 13 to 15, I was introduced to
alcohol. And so I started to drink
alcohol. And you know, now in hindsight,
I realised I was self medicatingthrough the use of alcohol to
numb those emotions that I didn't know how to deal with.

(06:54):
And then around the age of yeah,from 1617 and 18, I, I fell into
a group of friends which I met through school and would go out
drinking on the weekends, parties, getting drunk and also
getting into fights and so fights with other people, other
males your age. Hmm.
And so for me, having violence in the home towards myself and

(07:19):
the was was normal. And then having being violent
with with my group of friends asa teenager also became normal.
So violence was a normal thing for me to to be around and and
then to be involved in. I actually didn't like it.
And the primary feeling I had been in going into a fight or
being in a fight was fear. But I was drawn to this this

(07:45):
group, hmm, Because that was theone place that I found that
belonging and that acceptance and a form of love which I now
know not real love, but a form of love which which I didn't
know was lacking in my life. But that's where I got it.
So when I was with this group and would go out drinking and

(08:05):
you would get into fights, they would was like being totally
with accepted sense of. Being part of a community.
Right, part of a community, not a good community.
And also in some, in some respects, it's almost kind of a
little bit of a normal thing in New Zealand culture, you know,
growing up drinking culture, been drinking all kind of stuff.
And, and I, I'm an advocate now that it's not healthy and it's

(08:29):
not good for now young people oreven adults.
But at that time it was completely normal and I didn't
know anything different. MMM.
Yeah. And so going forwards into how I
got in, what led me to prison, Iwas was at a party one night
drinking. I was drunk.
I left the party with my best friend and we we walked home to

(08:50):
his house. We were going home for the
night. We came across six older males
in the street. They were kind of in the mid
20s. We got into a fight.
I got punched. We both went back to his house
and then we went back up the road and and when we went back
up the road, I had a knife in myhand and I we both came across

(09:10):
two guys that have been at the previous fight.
I stabbed the person who punchedme in and he died that night in
an ambulance. Hmm.
And, you know, if I could go back and change the past, I
would. I'm not proud of what I did.
I caused, you know, irreversibleharm to my victim, his family,
his friends, his community, my family, my friends, my community

(09:34):
and myself. And what I'm focused on now is
trying to do something with my life to have a positive
difference because I caused a lot of harm and I and I created
negative ripples through many people's lives, through the
community. And now what I'm trying to do is
reverse that. And I know I can't make up for
it, but I'm trying to create positive ripples.

(09:55):
In my life and at that given moment where where you stayed
that guy, what was what was going through your mind at the
time? Complete fight or flight
response? Yeah, all my thinking was out
the window as as an 18 year old who was drunk.
Yeah. Lack that problem solving
ability, lacked the thinking of consequences.

(10:18):
You know, now as a 35 year old adult, completely rational and
unexpected that if anyone's carrying a knife around and
gonna get into a fight, there's a high likelihood that someone's
gonna get seriously hurt and even painfully die.
Yeah. But yeah, in that moment, that
wasn't even my thinking. And I knew I had stabbed him,
but I didn't know he had had died until the the following day

(10:39):
on the I heard it on the radio. Yeah, yeah, cause you probably
would have been out of there, right?
Yeah. I mean it happens in a split
second. It probably took, I mean the
whole coming into contact and and the event and then I ran
off, me and my friend ran off down the street happened in the
in the main road in the middle of the road.
Yeah, I mean, it probably lasted.
I'm just guessing 10 to 20. Seconds.

(11:01):
Seconds. Yeah, seconds, but it felt like
a split second. Yeah, yeah.
And you know, like in that moment, you, like you said
before that you would have lost all consciousness of your, of
what you were doing. Ohh, yeah, Cause you're in that
you're in that flutter fight. Yeah, scenario right?
With your middle is basically going what you've got to fight
because you've met them before and they you got into a fight

(11:25):
with them and then on the way back that would ever again.
And I'm as you know, as, as we go and there's so many chances
we had the chance to to make a different decision.
Yeah. To not walk back up the street
to, to not take the knife, to even get halfway up the street
and turn around and, or even just to see them and then to
turn around and not confront them the second time.

(11:45):
And I've been down that road so many times of quarter short of
water And and I also know. That can't change.
It I can't change it and I can'tbeat myself up forever.
As I said, I'm not proud of whatI did.
What I am proud of is, is what I've achieved since going to
prison and coming out and the things I'm doing now to to try
and improve my life and improve the lives of other people.

(12:06):
Too. Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah, Well, the particular moments or people that planted
the seeds of hope for you. Yeah, so one of the the big
fears I have, you know, beliefs,the belief I was unlovable, I
wasn't loved. And I believe that even my
family didn't love me and it wasincorrect.

(12:26):
And yeah, unfortunately it took something drastic like this
happening in my life. I actually fled the country.
I, I, I went to Australia and tried to take my life.
I attempted suicide and my family, I, I'd lied to my family
and I said that I was going to the South Island for a few

(12:48):
weeks, but I actually flew to Australia to kill myself.
The New Zealand police, I was a suspect.
They went to my house and they were fingerprinting my house and
taking DNA samples off my clothes and they were
interviewing my family and my family 100% believed they had
the wrong person. And then the the police told my

(13:11):
family that I'd flown to Australia because I guess they
could track my passport. So the next day my my family
flew over to Australia and they actually got detained at the
Brisbane airport. I don't know why, but they did.
So because they're linked to you.
Ohh yeah, I think yeah, yeah. What?

(13:32):
Yeah, definitely because of me like, well, yeah.
Why did they get detained? Yeah, because I guess maybe they
could have been trying to aid ina bit me if they found me or
something, but they weren't there trying to find me.
I'll find you. I'd run away.
Yeah, but I, I got when they, they had landed in Brisbane
airport and had been detained. So I, I handed myself in the

(13:53):
Brisbane airport and then agreedto extradition back to New
Zealand to, to face my charges. So why bring that story up is
because my family loved me and my family supported me through
my living years in prison. And.
And there's still my biggest supporters now.
Yeah. So when you ask, was there
anyone who had a big impact in my life?
Family and yeah, I've met a lot of people along the way as well.

(14:18):
I was very lucky to have been through about 5 or 6 years of
counselling therapy. I've got a lot of great mentors
that that have backed me for a number of years now that have
really opened my mind up to opportunities and have really
encouraged me every time I've had a success.
And even in the early stages of,well sorry, about halfway

(14:38):
through being in prison, are written article in the Dominion
Post, which is a newspaper in Wellington.
Yep. And there was a, a story on on
the front page of a guy called Doctor Paul Wood, who was
graduating PhD of psychology. And the back story was that he'd
gone to prison when he was 18 years old.

(15:00):
He'd been sentenced to life for murder aged 11 years and
president and he completed his masters while he was in prison
and he got out and finished a PhD.
And they're completely blew my mind sitting in a concrete yard
in in prison. I didn't even know you could
study because no one was studying.
I didn't know you could get education improves no one
getting education. First I've heard of it, but

(15:21):
yeah. Yeah, so I went on a so for the
next two years. Actually, I was a bit lazy every
year, so I had this. I had to say I didn't do
anything for a year, but I know I got the little motivation to.
Maybe I could study, Maybe I could get some education.
Any studied with Massey University and I thought I want

(15:41):
to do that too. So a year later I tried to enrol
and then I spent two years getting denied from the
Department of Corrections sayingyou can't do it.
It's impossible to say, well, ithas been done.
I've seen it in the newspaper, someone's done it.
So how can I do it? And went through a lot of red
tape. Took two years to to turn the
initial, no, you can't do it into a yes, you can do it.

(16:02):
And that's the whole story in itself.
But so Doctor Paul would have been a huge, still a great
mentor for me and man, the things he's gone to, gone on to
achieve. He's been out of prison now 14
years. He's got off all of his life,
parole conditions, he's travelled around the world, he
has his own business consulting to government agencies, private

(16:24):
agencies, all about mindset and mental skills training.
So. I think I remember Doctor Paul
Rudd here. Yeah, comment exactly who, who
was it emitted. But I do remember that story and
you know what? What you said earlier on about
losing yourself esteem, all of that, that's very familiar

(16:46):
because it's interesting that our ages, we are totally
different in age, but we've beenthrough similar things.
But then the path we took was different.
You know, for me, I ended up, and I really very closely nearly
ended U as a street kid on the streets of Wellington at the age

(17:08):
of 16. But fortunately, I had a friend
who was a Christian and he invited me to youth camps and I
started going there and then I'mgoing to joining the church.
But at 15, I remember trying to cut myself and kill myself
because I was told that I was useless.
I would never amount to anything.

(17:30):
I'd never be a singer. I'd never be successful by
someone very close to me and dear to me.
And, you know, I could have ended up in a similar thing
because for me, the abandonment rejection made me a very angry
kid. I remember stabbing a kid

(17:51):
through his hand that at the ageof 10 because he was annoying me
with the campus. But yeah, I could have easily
ended up in there myself. So I really, you know, really
commend you for what you did in terms of turning your life
around, even though you went through the experiences that

(18:11):
you've gone through. So you achieved, you achieved so
much while you're in prison, 2 diplomas, mentoring others.
What get you motivated day afterday and such a challenging
environment like we're coming out of prison and then back into
this world. What's what's kept you going

(18:33):
day-to-day, by day? Therefore, day now or day by day
in prison. Now.
Now, yeah, man, now it's just amazing.
This is this world is amazing. People, society, the
opportunities, the technology, there's, there's just so much on
offer for full run. Hmm.

(18:54):
And you know, I've got certain obstacle halls in in berries
that they get him away, you know, especially around like
getting employment and things like that because in New Zealand
you have to disclose if you're asked a criminal conviction.
And I would like to, because youknow, I'm, I'm I like to be
transparent and authentic and upfront.
But the, the, the general consensus of, of, of, of New

(19:15):
Zealand is general. And I'm not saying everyone, but
general is, it's kind of there'sa strong lock them up and throw
away the key mentality. And there's a, there's a strong
keep them away from us mentality.
Like they'll say. And, and I agree there's, there,
there are some people that are there that are in our presence.
There probably aren't safe to bereleased and, and, and probably

(19:38):
haven't been rehabilitated and, and, and, and may not want to be
because you got to be motivated to, to want to change and to
want to reintegrate into societyand absolutely.
And have a meaningful difference.
Yeah, just to live a simple normal life, crime free and and
not even wants to do that. But I think there are people in
prison who like myself, do want to get out and do want to have a

(20:01):
a positive, meaningful life and to contribute to their family
and build a career and and all those kind of things.
But. There are some obstacles that
that we have as as a society, which makes it harder for people
like myself to to get those opportunities.
Hmm. Yeah.
And if we just go about able to go back to your time in prison,

(20:23):
what was your mindset like day by day?
Sit in prison is actually so my first so I was just I was
sentenced to 11 years non parolewhich which which as I got
sentence when I was 20. So as a 20 year old you get
sentenced to a living life in prison with a living years non

(20:44):
parole means you will definitelynot get out with any living
there and you could potentially spend your entire life in
prison. Wow.
And there are people in our prisons right now who are
sitting, who've been in their 30-40, twenty, 30-40 years.
Wow, yeah. And and and I so it's just
complete turn your boat upside down experience.

(21:07):
Hmm, I hate that. And even at 20, I didn't have
you know, modern science is saying that our brains and and
male brains aren't fully maturedto 25 or 32, right?
So, so I'll still troll, troll brain.
You know, I'll call it a child brain or even a teenage brain,
but 20 years old you, I don't have a concept of how am I gonna

(21:28):
survive the next 11 years, let alone thrive or, you know, make
it out the other side in a positive way.
And so for my 1st 18 months, I was of my sentence, I was in a
prison called Podemos Hemel maximum security prison in
Auckland. And, and the regime at that time
was 23 hours locked up in your cell.

(21:49):
Wow. And you're allowed out for one
hour to, to get your meals and, and have a shower.
And, and at that time, they weren't even leading us out in
the yard, so we had no sunlight.For 18 months.
So the indoors for 18 months basically, I call it solitary
confinement. Yeah, you could socialise for an
hour, but I mean, and then it's like as a 20 year old, the kind

(22:11):
of people I was exposed to during that one hour out, we're
not I went from I'm not great group of friends to a much worse
environment. Hmm.
And and I'm just lucky. I feel lucky that I survived
that time, that 18 months, let alone the 11 years.
There's there's so many things that could have gone a lot

(22:32):
worse. And the mindset for that period,
because I was signed into periods is, is I just need to
make it through today. And for that 18 months, it's
like you need to make it throughtoday, make it through today.
There was no, I mean, I read a few books here and there, but
there were, there was no self improvement.
There was, there wasn't a whole lot of reflection, like even
reflecting on what I did wrong with, with, you know, my

(22:55):
offending. There wasn't a lot of reflection
on like what led me to this path.
I hadn't even discovered what emotions were yet.
I didn't know what emotions wereSo that, that that self
reflection, self insight there, there was even that mindset,
like a positive or growth mindset, totally nonexistent.
It was a as a very fixed mindsetof fucked up.
I'm a bad person. Look at my environment.
Everything's confirming to me. These officers are telling me on

(23:17):
bed, These guys are saying theseguys are scary.
Got no real friends. Everything in my reality told me
that the world wasn't safe, I wasn't safe and I wasn't a good
person. Luckily, on a technicality, I
got shifted out of that prison after 18 months and I got moved

(23:39):
down to president, called Crawford Prison.
In Wellington, which is ohh, my Crawford, yeah.
Prison which has now been shutdown.
I was actually there on the verylast day it shutdown in 2012.
Yeah, I've been, I've been in the in the prison right from a
church ministry perspective. And I actually met a guy,
Richard to tell who was who was in there.

(23:59):
And we started to band together and we ended up jamming with
Dave Dublin and Rheumatica Prison.
Fantastic. How's that?
That was awesome. We did a concert for the youth.
That that's great. That you went in there, Yeah,
yeah. And and they would have brought
some some love and some positiveenergy in for.
Absolutely. And then we became the band for
the Prison Fellowship. So.

(24:20):
So carry on. Sorry.
Yeah. And so moving to, I wanna just
to highlight the, the 18 months thing.
I was trying to improve my situation because I heard that
the prison right next door to maximum security was, was a low
to medium security prison. And you had, and there was units

(24:40):
where you could live in so unitsof people.
So 30 or 60 men in the unit. And you could work, right.
So you could, you could go out and work during the day inside
the prison and, and, and, and make a small amount of money.
I think it's, you know, would have been like 10 bucks a week
or something and get qualifications.
So I think it was a concreting yard.
You can get concrete qualifications.
There was a there was a buildingplace you could go and get some
building qualifications inside the prison.

(25:02):
And so I made that a goal. So I was a little bit of gold
setting the main and I and I spoke to the the manager of this
unit I was in in putting window and I said, Hey, can I go to
that present? He said, you're not getting out
of here for at least seven years.
Hmm, you got a maximum security classification.
You're not getting out of here. And I was like, ohh, wow.
And, and I think I only asked once and I think I gave up

(25:23):
pretty quick. Fast forward 18 months and I and
I got moved out on a technicallycalled a muster blow out.
And a muster refers to the totalprison proper population in New.
Zealand, too many people in there.
Too many people in a master blurof there's too many people in
this prison. Ohh.
So we need to move people out tothe other prisons.
Yeah. To get our numbers balanced.

(25:44):
Yeah. And so cause in prison you
different London. So I got moved out and they,
they did, they came on like a, a, like a Wednesday night said,
can I swear on here Will? Yeah, yeah.
I said pick your shirt. Cause it's just, this is the
language. Pack your shit.
You're off in the morning. And that means pack all of your
belongings. And there's not much cause I'm
just living in a single cell. But pack all your belongings up.

(26:05):
You put them in the bags. And then tomorrow you're going
on a bus down to, they said, Springhill Prison, which is just
South of the Bombay Hills. Ohh, well.
Yeah. So it's just that and so it's
context. All of my family were in
Auckland so this meant OK going to.
Move away. Getting closely.
Ohh, right. Yeah, yeah.
So my family in Auckland, I was in Auckland prison and was

(26:27):
getting moved just out of Auckland, alright.
And I was like well I don't wanna move, can I stay in like
no you can't stay. I was like, OK, well, can I call
my family, let them know cause they're coming to visit me on
Saturday And they said no, you kind of a phone call.
OK, so no phone call or transferred down to, to
Springhill prison the next day and was soon as get the said can
I call my family? They said no, you can't call
your family. You go into this unit and I

(26:49):
said, can I have my belongings please?
They said no, you can't have your belongings.
They're staying on the bus because you're getting
transferred tomorrow. And I said, no, hold on, I'm
transferred. I'm here.
This is the transfer. And like, no, you're getting
transferred down to Wellington tomorrow.
And I said, I think you've got this all wrong.
But there are no This is what's happening.
Conquer family. OK, so I do get transferred down

(27:10):
the next day to Wellington in the bus and I think it took a
couple of days to actually get the phone call to my family to
let them know and you know they will destroy they were they were
horrified. Ohh.
Yeah, and I think I spent the next three or four years to get
back to Auckland and successfully I could never make
it back. But you know, the silver lining
with that was Mount Crawford wasa a low to medium security
prison. So I guess, you know, kind of

(27:32):
achieved half of what I wanted. I wanted to get to a lower
security place so you're unlocked from.
I forget the exact unlock, but it's basically 8:00 in the
morning till four in the other and and I quickly got into
employment as well after a few months I I got to the working
win yeah it's always like somewhere where the workers.
So I found out where it was like, well, how do I get there?

(27:53):
Figured out okay and did the right things got there and I
started a job and I ended up becoming initially the the
Stormin for the prison kitchen. So cooking the breakfast,
lunches and dinners for the the whole prison.
And then I became, and then we had a head cook and he was a
prisoner and then he got paroled.

(28:13):
And then so my boss, who was thepresent officer said you're
gonna mention you're gonna be cooked and, and, and no lie, I
said no, I'm not. And you said, you see why I said
ohh, no, I won't say his name cause you wanna keep it private.
But he said, Sean, you're doing it And and and why didn't I

(28:34):
wanna do it? Because I didn't believe in
myself. Yeah.
I didn't think I had the skills.I said that, He said, well,
teach you how to cook, don't worry about it.
And I said, and I don't, I don'tknow how to lead a team.
And he says, don't worry, you'lllive.
You'll learn. I'll teach you how to lead the
team. And, and I was scared and I was,
I was still pretty young. I was in my 20s.
So I just said OK. You felt the feeling I.

(28:54):
Think I might have said if it doesn't work out on the first
week or two, can I, can I go to the common job?
Because my job was cushy, man. Count all the sugars, can all
the butters, you know, candle the eggs and, and make sure
nothing goes missing and you're good.
Yeah, it's cool. And so you had more
responsibility now? Yeah, more responsibility.
And yeah, I never forget the first time because Saturday,
Saturday nights as chicken night, first roast chicken,

(29:17):
vegetables, gravy and my first chicken.
I I sent out raw chicken to the whole prison.
Ohh no. I thought it was cooked.
I mean, I think it's supposed todo it like 45 minutes on steam
bake. And like after 30 minutes I
looked at it and and I put I putthe probe into one of them and
it was good. And then I assumed being a bit,
but not even an experience. I've it must be all good, but

(29:40):
I'd I'd check like a top tray. And these are these are like
commercial ovens. Yeah, it's like a few ovens.
And so the bottom trades cook slower.
Ohh. You know, so inexperienced I
didn't know and I and I sent it out so not everyone but will
check in about man you. You wouldn't believe how how
hard it was to walk into a wing of angry prisoners who look for
this, like, hard out of the weekprofessionally.

(30:01):
Yeah, yeah. And man, they're pissed at me.
But I mean, there was a learningexperience.
I never ever did a a raw chickenagain in my life so.
Looked a little bit further. Yeah, yeah.
Learning experience. Yeah, wow, Wow.
So I keep I keep grinding around, sorry in circles and I
don't know if I'm answering yourstory, your question, but so
that the mindset at that time and that prison was and that's

(30:24):
that prison is worried that article too.
So this is like, kind of like anawakening for me.
Like, well, like, there's other opportunities, OK, There's work.
OK. There's people who will be
encouraging and supporting. And this was a prison officer.
It wasn't. I've never experienced a prison
officer encouraging me and supporting me and helping me to
become better. Hmm.
And read that article about Doctor Paul Wood and really

(30:47):
started to think, OK, what else can I achieve here during my
time. So they're president shutdown in
in in a 2012. The reason that I was the one of
the last people there was because I was I was still the
president cook. We had to give everyone
breakfast that day. You were cooking until everyone
left. Virtually, pretty much.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then I got to remake a
prison. Luckily my boss knew the kitchen

(31:11):
boss, a remake of prison and, and I got a job straight away.
Like with within a week, I got into the to the, to the working
unit and I got into the prison and, and I got a job cooking
straight away, which is created a little bit of, I think you
might call it like jealousy or like people weren't happy
because like who's this new guy coming straight like that?

(31:31):
Cause those are like revered, like respect the jobs.
You work your way. Up yeah, you like, you like you
work like fucking some people cases like 5 or 6 years and then
you can make their position and this comes straight in.
I guess they didn't know that. They've done it before.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But and and I guess there was a
learning experience for me. It's not like what you know,

(31:52):
it's who you know. Yeah, cause and I had an ask,
can you please put in the good word?
Like he just put in the good. Word.
And I think I was like his little Project Protege in a way.
Well, I I feel like he he probably saw you changing and
shifting. I didn't identities right
becoming a different person, at least bit of vision of yourself
absolutely. And so I thought, you know, this

(32:13):
guy deserves the, you know, theydeserve to be in here as well.
Absolutely. And and just as you said that, I
remembered that he he was alwaystelling me to enrol in the
university as well. MMM.
And so, so that seed was was planted and it took me, it took
a long time, the gym and for me to put some water on it and to.

(32:35):
Get his he saw potential. And he saw potential when I saw
no potential yeah and ohh, so went from that, from that daily
kind of like try and make it through today mindset just
survive today to okay, I have a little bit of agency, you know,
going to work as a responsibility.
It's also a privilege and you get a good feeling, you know

(32:55):
yeah and in the small person I was cooking 400 people a day and
the big present was 1000 people a day.
But even cooking 400 people a day, you finished the service,
you know you're being down, everything's tidy.
It's a satisfaction. Yeah, a completion.
It's an achievement everyday getting a small achievement.
Yeah, Do you know the interesting thing is like in
prison, you knew you knew that you were there for a period of

(33:17):
time and you were living in thatpresent moment everyday, right?
Because it can't tell lies in the power of now that every we
only ever have the present moment.
And for you, you weren't even thinking about tomorrow.
You're just thinking about I'm just going to get today, right.
So you in the present moment. But when you come out of this
into this world, everyone's thinking so far ahead, Yeah.

(33:40):
And the anxious about what's going on and this and that and
it's it. It's interesting that that for
you, you weren't thinking ahead of like, ohh, what am I going to
do here? You just going, I just gotta, I
just gotta deal with today. Hmm, that would have helped you
in terms of not feeling anxious and and so on, right.
You're probably a little bit more relaxed, and that's since.

(34:04):
Absolutely. And I and I, and I think part of
that, it's a function of, of theenvironment because there's so
much choices taken away from you.
Yeah, that it's a little bit less complex than than living
out here. It's a it's a little bit more
simple. Yeah.
You know, Yeah. You your door is unlocked at 8.
Yep. And your door is locked at four.

(34:25):
Yeah. And you either go to work, we go
to the yard. Well, I guess you can like, you
know, read a book or or do otherthings, but it's you, you might
have like 100 options versus outhere there's maybe 1000 or
million options. Yeah, but what I want to do
today, Yeah. And even like 1000 apps, you can
get 1000 apps on your phone and Chapter 1.
Open. It sounds so, so interesting.

(34:46):
Even though you are confined, you had freedom within.
Yeah, right. But people who are free actually
are confined in this world. Yeah.
Well, I, I, yes. And I started to, I started to
get a real understanding of, of this concept of and, and, and it
actually came a little bit laterin my kind of realisation about
this, this ability that we all have access to, to be present.

(35:09):
Yeah. And so I've been meditating now
for about 12 years, practising yoga, another big discipline
that I've kept throughout my life as as physical exercise and
physical training. And those disciplines have have
really helped me to to stay centred and grounded.

(35:31):
But it doesn't mean that my whole journey has been easy and
I've had every challenge with these.
A big growth period for me was in 2000 and 16 when I started
counselling and then and then also having access to, to
psychologists to help me work onthe internal world.

(35:52):
Hmm. From a cognitive point of view,
Yeah. And also, and so I know you're
familiar with CBT. Yes.
So I did a lot of therapy with CBT.
Chicken thought. Catch your thought, Check your
thought. You change your thought.
Yeah. Sorry for everyone else's
cognitive behavioural therapy. Yeah, yes, that's looking at
your thoughts, your emotions. The actions.

(36:15):
Your actions and, and also probably a little bit more
importantly, the beliefs that drive everything underneath.
Absolutely. As your actions create your
results. Yeah.
And then and that's a new situation which you're gonna
have thoughts and feelings about.
So I went through about a three-year intensive focus on
trying to rewire my beliefs. And I've shared my beliefs with

(36:36):
you earlier. We had a lot of strong negative
beliefs and they were hard to breakdown, hard to counter and
and hard to replace. And they still get triggered now
every now and again, like something will happen and I'll
feel better about myself. And I go, you know, there be a
little negative voice in my headto go says, are you fucked up?
Ohh, you're not good enough. And but now it's it's there's

(36:58):
also part of better sleeping. OK, there's, I accept there's a
little voice that will sometimespop up, but then it's how fast
can I, can I challenge that thought except it challenge it
and then replace it with with a more helpful true thought.
Yeah. And it's not cause we're not
placing it with lies. It's like actually what is the
evidence for this belief exactly?

(37:19):
Yeah. Is it true?
It is there anything else which is also true?
Yeah. And that's DBT, dialectical
behavioural therapy, which I. Also do and it's coming from the
place of curiosity, right? Yeah, Yeah.
And also leading golf stuff thatno longer serves you because we
hold on to things. I mean, we hoard things
physically, but internally we wehold on to so many things that

(37:40):
no longer serve us. And it's like, just let it go,
accept it that what it is what it is, let it go, free yourself
from it and move forward. Yeah, and said that the, the
freedom, the freedom point is, is, is so key and there are

(38:02):
challenges for me in, in trying to, I guess embody and and
harness that, that that sense offreshness, hmm, as I'm sure it
is for a lot of people today. Hmm.
And that's why I always come back to my skills and my

(38:23):
practises and, and and I've grounding techniques.
So taking 3 deep breaths, yeah, renaming of thought, reframing
it and then and then resetting and go, okay, what's the next
action I can take? Yeah.
And trying to reduce the time frame down from going from, you
know, a thought sprawl that might last days.
Yeah. To bring it back to lasting

(38:44):
hours. Yeah, to bringing it back to
lasting minutes. And optimally, how, how quick
can we reset? And you know, I look to, for
example, sports as as, as, as form of inspiration for me.
And an example is the top tennisplayers, when they lose a point,
they need to switch straight back into the the winning ones

(39:08):
here for the next serve and the next rally.
And to lose that one, they need to switch and you need to be so
quick. And so for me, it's all about
repetition. And it's, and it's I, I have, I
have the skills, I haven't had them written down and I know it
works for me and, and different people have different practises
that work for them, but I know it works for me.

(39:29):
So then the only thing I need todo is make sure that I keep
practising. And the more you practise, the
more rear wires in your brain and, and the more it becomes a
habit. And it's instinctual.
So when something happens, you don't actually have to whip out
the piece of paper or the notes on the phone and go, OKA, BCD,
OK, got to do that. Now it's like it just happens
dramatically. Yeah.
And it's been a long time building that, that, that, that,

(39:51):
that feeling that. Habit, yeah, it takes time and
practise and look like you. I have a practise that I, I do
every morning. So when I get, when I wake up in
the morning, usually about 4:50 in the morning, I'm lying in bed
and I first thing I do is gratefulness.
Everything that I'm grateful forevery person, every, every
abundance that I have in this world and love, health, wealth,

(40:14):
everything, right people that are in my life.
And then the next thing to do isto visualise a grounding
technique where I see myself. Going down to the centre of the
earth, running across this bridge to this clearing with his
ocean and mountains. And I see my current self burned
down and and my new self come out like a champion.

(40:35):
Like exactly like that. And then I run back up into my
body and that's my new self going back into my body.
And the third thing I do is as intentions.
So there's a thing called segment intending.
So you break your day up into little small segments and you
go, wouldn't it be amazing if this happened?
And everything that you've got on your mind, you reframe with

(40:57):
positive, positive intentions. And I tell you what, many times
things have happened on that dayas I have put those intentions
out there because we are, we have the ability to create.
We are more if you bubble says we are created in the image of
God and if we create an image ofGod, then we are creators and

(41:17):
they're being, we have God within us.
And so we are able to create ourreality.
And if we only reframe it, we only believe it and back
ourselves, then we can. We can have a future with
whatever we want in our life, a desire.
Yeah, we had a back ourselves. Yeah, take action.
Absolutely. And as I said on the post

(41:40):
yesterday on as I commented, a lot of people think it's
impossible to do to, you know, do this, do that.
But if you break the word impossible down, I'm possible.
So I want to encourage everyone you are absolutely possible.
You can do anything you want. You really just got to believe
and back yourself now. You haven't just rebuilt your

(42:02):
life, you've actually you actually thriving in your.
Life. You know, which is amazing, What
are some of the biggest heroes that you're facing reintegrating
back into society? I have to say the biggest one
has been the employment one. Yeah, during, during my time in
prison, as I said, I was lucky to enrol with Messi.
Universities studied extra merrily and at that time we had

(42:24):
no computers, no Internet access.
I still think it's the setup andpresence at the moment.
No computers, no Internet access.
So the two diplomas by hand, Diploma in Business Studies and
a diploma in Psychology, got outof prison into full time work
and continued studying part timeand completed Bachelor of

(42:46):
Business with Mercy University last year.
Nice. And for me, it was like kind of
multi reasons why I was studying.
So self improvement. A great byproduct of, of, of the
study while in prison was it actually took my brain out of
the prison walls thinking about economics, finance, and, you

(43:09):
know, psychology, all these things.
It was like, wow, there's so much out there in the world, so
much knowledge and, and so many different aspects and arenas to
look into. And I was only studying 2
subjects, business and psychology.
You know, we know there's so much to learn.
So that was amazing because whilst I was in prison,
physically, my mind was elsewhere.

(43:31):
Yeah, thinking about positive. Things you are creating a new
reality. Creating a new reality yeah,
yeah and then in the kind of third reason why I was studying
was because I believe they wouldgive me credibility and I
thought well if I get you know I.
The initial goal was to completea paper.
And this is what I do with my goal.
So we break everything down. So here's what's the vision?

(43:53):
And then okay, what's, what's the long term goal, medium and
short term goal and then break that down into tasks.
And so the first short term goalwas let's complete one paper.
Hmm. So, so I did the one paper.
That's OK, do another paper. And once another paper, I
thought, well, there's only two more papers to go in.
I could complete a certificate. So there was the very first one.
I did certificate in 16 technology.

(44:14):
I thought OK cool, if I do another 4 papers I can get a
diploma Little Cross created to them.
That's when I did the departmentof Psychology and then I thought
I had a bit more time. I had a few more years left in
prison and I thought it was no point stopping now.
So we carried on. I think I could credit about
three or four of those papers tothe next diploma.
Yeah. So, you know, did that.
And then I had to treat diplomasand got out of prison.

(44:36):
I thought, well, if I cross created a few of them and to a
degree to get a degree and I thought here's the goal.
I thought they don't give me credibility in the world because
coming out I knew that it was going to be tough to get a good
job, good pay, good company, labouring jobs.

(44:57):
I guess our drama doesn't I, I think there's certain industries
and certain types of jobs which people with the conviction could
go into without too much hassle.But for me, I, I didn't see
myself doing that for the rest of my life.
I was aspiring for more and I thought, well, degree from a
respected, reputable New Zealanduniversity might help me in that

(45:21):
respect. And I finished the degree, did a
bunch of networking and I have lots of good contacts and
mentors as well. And they put me into, you know,
these opportunities and I'd go, then I was trying to get into
the corporate environment and I was applying for these roles,
getting to first interview, getting to second interview,
getting to final interview. And then usually it would be

(45:41):
when I hit 8 HRHR state final cheques.
They're doing the chicks here. Which I disclosed up front and
the application, yeah, criminal check tickets, but I think some
of the processes they get all the way to the and do the chick
at the end. And it was like, okay, Sean,
you're perfect for the role, would love to have you, but
here's our employment policy andwe can't make people with
criminal conviction. And you know, obviously I accept

(46:04):
that, but also, you know, gentlypush back and kind of asking
questions and you know, is thereany wiggle room?
Can we can can you look relook at your policies?
Good on you for challenging. Yeah, I mean, New Zealand Pro
Board has, has, has deemed me tonot pose undue risk to the
community. That's why they released me.
Yeah, it's super hard to anyone on a life sentence to get

(46:26):
released from prison. There's so many things.
I look at your psychological reports.
Have you done treatment? Have you done rehabilitation?
Do you ever support network? Do you, do you have a job?
Do you have somewhere to live? All of these things and as far
as I'm concerned, I'm safe. But I do also understand that,

(46:46):
you know, there is you put me Sean, you know, his mid 30s,
he's got a degree and he does have this work experience
versus, you know, person B mid 30s, got a degree, has this
experience. Ohh, yeah.
But Sean's got a murder conviction.
Well, we'll go for the one with it doesn't have the Commission.

(47:08):
That makes complete 100% rational sense.
I, I won't deny that. However, I do think that it's
important that we, we look at the individual and, and what
they can bring. And so I bring a lot of skills,
experience and knowledge and ways that I can communicate and
relate with people that the other person may not have.
They may be very, very qualifiedand have a lot of skills, but I

(47:29):
also bring skills that are unique in their can add value in
organisation. So would, would, would, would it
be fair to say that you're advocating towards the changing
of policies within organisations?
I I would definitely encourage, encourage organisations and
society at large to to think about what is the kind of

(47:53):
society we want to build? Is it one that's based on
openness, acceptance, support, encouragement?
Or judgement? Yeah, or judgement introduction.
More people, not just like people have been to prison.
Yeah, for all kinds of people. And there's different sectors
that that are marginalised and discriminated against for
various reasons. Hmm.

(48:14):
In our society and in, in, in New Zealand society and in
societies globally. But I'm, yeah, that's my big
advocate of, of seeing people for where they're at.
Absolutely they can Person. Yeah.
Agree with you? Yeah.
Little flow into to part of the the the work that I'm about to
start doing and yeah and the organisation that I've just.

(48:34):
Finished my cake. Yeah absolutely.
Absolutely. How did you push through the
self doubt and the the external judgement?
You know, like you were getting these rejections from jobs.
Yeah. How did you put what What kept
you pushing through? Man, I honestly, I still cry.
You know the rejection is tough.It doesn't it Yeah, Hey, I'm 54

(48:56):
and I've had rejections all my life.
Yeah. I've been through 24
restructures and four redundancies and and you know,
and and I just decided that that's it, corporate world
doesn't work for me anymore. In fact, I've had grown up.
So I'm, I'm CEO live on now. So why should I work for someone
else when I can work for myself?Absolutely.

(49:16):
So there's there's a part of that which is rejection is a
part of life, but also, and so that was part of it for me.
It was like, OK, yes, yeah, theysaid no.
It's a reflection on them, theirpolicies, their processes, maybe
even their beliefs. Not a reflection on me.
I believe I'm a good person at heart.

(49:38):
I know I've done bad things, butI know that I've done things to
improve myself and I know that Ican add a lot of value to an
organisation with my skills. So it was, it was this part of
it. It's just like reframing.
OK, rejection's normal. It's not personal.
It might, sometimes it feels. That it feels.
Yeah, it feels. And it's hard not to.
It's hard not to feel. But sad and depressed,

(50:00):
Frustrated. Disappointed.
Yeah, and, and, and the, the big, the big one I think for me,
which has been a huge game changer for, for, for me as a
person is now I, I have this amazing support work of support
network of family, friends, mentors that I can go to and I

(50:25):
go to whenever I, I need help. And that could just be like even
to my sister or my partner. Hey, I I feel like shit and this
happened today and it's just having someone who can give me
empathy, who can listen and can just say, yeah, Sean, that's
tough. I hear you.
Yeah. And, and, but the, the key part
there was, there's a, there is the possibility that, that, that

(50:48):
support has always been on offerto me through my whole life, but
I never accessed it cause I never asked.
And you haven't been vulnerable enough to no.
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
So having the vulnerability to go.
Yeah, hey, I'm feeling this way today.
Yeah, right. And you know, like, it's
interesting you've convinced with my girlfriend and like when

(51:10):
we started going out nine monthsago and I've been on this
journey of working through my rejection and abandonment from
childhood, especially with relationships and everything.
And they've been triggers that have popped up for me.
And in the in the beginning of the the relationship, I was
like, you know, she actually, I wrote a chapter in a book and it

(51:32):
talks all about it. I'll send it to you so you can
have read all about. And I said, before we start
dating, here's my here's my lifestory.
I want you to read it and then tell me if you still want to go
out with me. And she read it and she goes.
What you went through no child should ever have to go through.
Cause like you I was also verbally, physically and

(51:55):
sexually abused at and that was at the age of 10.
So Long story short, over the last nine months, I've been able
to work through so many things because I have a, a partner who
is understanding, a partner who is, is always there.

(52:15):
She's there to talk to me when I'm feeling a certain way.
I've also learned to be more vulnerable and be able to say,
Hey, I'm feeling like this today, you know, so it's
important, you know, I really take my head off and say, well
done for, for showing that because it would have been hard
to do that, especially when you've been in like prison for

(52:37):
11 years. It changes you as a person,
right? You know, you, I don't know,
like, and some people will become more tough and stuff and
then some people will sort of oppress themselves, right?
But it's important that if you're going through things in
your life, it's a it's OK to askfor help.
It's okay to talk to someone that you trust and say, ohh,

(53:01):
it's okay to reach out to a coach or mean to and say, hey,
I'm struggling today. I need some help and go and talk
to someone like Sean hmm or myself.
Thank you for sharing that. Well, thank you for sharing
that. Really beautiful what you
shared, Anthony. Yeah.
And yeah, my heart goes out to the that little Anthony that had
those terrible things happen to him.

(53:23):
And yeah, look, it's been a, it's been a tough, tough 50
something years, but I wouldn't change a single day.
Everything that I've been through in my life, I would not
change a single day. The reason I say that is because
we are meant to go through thesethings, because we are meant to

(53:44):
become for us to become the better version of ourselves, for
us to have what we desire in life for what?
To have what we distant for, these are tests that we have to
go through in our life. We have to go through these
roads, these hurdles, these challenges.
And as you do that, doors open up, right?

(54:08):
And I mean, we've met a couple of times and we've had
conversations about, you know, how we could collaborate
together and so on. Like we're from totally
different ethnic backgrounds, different, but we have quite
similar experiences in some shape or form.
Life is tough, but those tough moments are where we lean into

(54:31):
what's happening. If it's fear, lean into fear.
Fear is your friend. If it's your comfort zone, lean
into your. If you're feeling discomfort,
lean into that discomfort and get through it because your
dreams will die in your comfort zone.
And we are meant to expand and grow.
Life is about expansion and growth.

(54:54):
O The more we lean in, the more we become curious about what's
going on, the more we observe ourselves and live in the
present moment. Everything else is doesn't
matter. Hmm.
Alright, so so that's what I've learned is that everything I've
been through is a situ for my comeback today.

(55:18):
Yeah, because those setbacks were the setups absolutely for
greater comeback today and tomorrow and the next day.
And so every day we're going to face challenges, but it's our
responsibility whether we're going to get up as a champion.
We're gonna get up and we'll never.

(55:38):
We're not gonna give give up, but we're just gonna keep going
and moving forward. 100% agreed.Every set back is a setup for a
come back. And you know, it's so humbling
for me to be on Champion MindsetCollective podcast with you
today. And in hearing what you just
said reminded me of one of my favourite quotes from a guy

(56:01):
called Randy Porsche who read a book called The Last Lecture.
And he said that brick walls arethere for a reason.
They give us a chance to show how much something means to us.
And I read that when I was in prison and I every challenge,
every obstacle that I, that I, that I came up with, I tried to

(56:21):
apply that philosophy. Here's a brick wall.
How much does it mean for me to get past this wall?
And it could be through, it could be around, it could be
over. And that's what kind of
generates that, that creative approach, because we're always
going to encounter challenges, obstacles, barriers in their
lives. What can we do to overcome?

(56:41):
Yeah, well, when we when we cometo a speed bump and on our Rd.,
we don't stop, We slow down and go over it.
Yeah, alright. Some people just fly over.
Yeah. It depends on your depends on
your perception of a speed bump.It's like, I'm just gonna fly
over this thing. Yeah, right.
Like in the Hollywood movies, when you come to a hurdle, when

(57:01):
you have a hurdle, a hurdle race, you don't stop, you jump
over that hurdle. Yeah, right.
So yeah, Yeah, it's like. And thinking about that reminded
me, you know, your earlier question was what was once when
your president? And and so part of part of that
when I, when I got through into my further into my sentence, I
was thinking I started taking off instead of your days.

(57:25):
I started to tick off years. Yeah, like, OK, so.
Ohh, well, OK, I've done, I've done five years now and I've
done OK now done 6. And then it was counting down.
OK, I've got four years to go, three years to go, 2 years to go
until the the parole board knocked out get out.
But I can go to the parole boardand get the chance of getting
out. You were doing Quantum Chefs?
Yeah, you were. You were collapsing time.

(57:47):
And I have to say that, you know, the big, the big, you
know, cause I live in years. When I hit the 5 1/2 year mark
and got just past it, I was like, wow, I've broken the
camel's bag. Yeah.
And I thought if I can make it halfway.
Plain sailing now. I can, I can, I should be able
to, you know, make it through the last half too.
And. Ohh, we're at the Business

(58:07):
Blueprint event yesterday. Yeah.
On the North Shore, right, with Dean Payne.
Yeah. Fantastic event.
And we talked a lot about mindset.
Yeah. About taking action.
Yeah. And you know, about imposter
syndrome, about that imposter voice in the cheerleader voice
and trying to turn the imposter down and trying to turn the
cheerleader up. Absolutely.
And I really gel with it becausethat's what I'm trying to do for

(58:28):
years as well. And, you know, you talked about
the vision board. So he puts vision boards for
himself. He he set this goal that he
wants to travel around the worldfor three months, but the by the
time he was 40, he missed the goal with this with his family
tried around the world. He missed the goal but he
managed to win his 48 year around the world for four
months, which he shared with us.Absolutely amazing.
And I had a vision board for many years while I was in

(58:52):
prison. And it was that daily looking up
what I want to have, what I wanna be, what I wanna do.
And you shared earlier your morning practise.
I've I've got a morning practises where I do mind if I.
Share. Yeah.
Gracefully. Yeah, Yeah.
Yeah, mine's a lot of visualising as well.
So I'm visualise this beautiful warm mother energy from this guy

(59:15):
beaming down to me and and telling me you're doing good,
keep doing what you're doing, I'm proud of you, everything's
going to happen, you can relax. And so I tell myself, and I feel
like kind of those goosebumps now as I say it.
And because it's like, even if so, I do have a mother, but even

(59:36):
if I don't have a mother that can, that I can talk to everyday
and who can tell me those things, I can create that energy
for myself and, and I can tell myself those words.
So I move from that into this vortex visualisation where I
imagine that I am being floated up into this vortex of white
light. And then I come out the top and,
and it's just expensive like, and then I have, I have a

(01:00:00):
unique, unique life purpose, which I, it's like a, it's a
mantra. It's an information.
I'll keep it private today, but I say that.
Myself, but it's very positive, it's very action based, it's
very identity based about who I am and who I wanna be.
It's very aspirational. Then I have another
visualisation where it's a little bit I think like you're
1, but I visualise a tower. I'm at the bottom of the tower.

(01:00:22):
It's this big tower and like I'mright at the bottom and I'm
almost did at the bottom. But then again, I float up and I
come out into this incredible white light.
And then it turns into this scene where I'm lying back in
this expensive blue ocean and it's warm and it's just lovely
and and, and and beautiful and, and I have a have a set of

(01:00:46):
affirmations that I run through there.
I know it sounds quite long, butlike it's just this is this is
what makes what ticks for me. Right.
Exactly. That's what what like you do
what you do you right. Yeah.
And yeah, then there's then there's this this big black
glowing sun object called it Black Sun that expands up

(01:01:10):
through my body and out of me and turns into this glowing warm
light and then it reflects out and.
From your heart. From my chest out into the note.
And there's no words on this one.
This is just a feeling of everything because the blackness
is coming from a void. It's coming from a nothingness,

(01:01:31):
and out of nothing comes the light.
Yes, absolutely. And then when I'm, when I'm
emitting it outwards, that's my energy that I'm intending, is
said intending to meet out into the world through my thoughts,
Yeah, my emotions and my actions, yeah.
And, and true, and then, Yep. And then, and then, and then I

(01:01:53):
went to gratitude. So I got the gratitude practise
after that. And that's this beautiful sun
energy flowing down onto me. And I go through two or three
things that I'm grateful for in the moment.
And I feel that it's a beautifulenergy that that flows from my
body and I just sit there and absorb it, just absorb that
white light that's shining down to me.
And that's pure love, pure light, just pure beauty.

(01:02:18):
And then a shift that gratitude into two or three things in the
future. A little bit of what you're
saying. What do wanna intend for the
day? I'm more than grateful for them
happening. Absolutely haven't happened yet,
but I'm grateful for them happening because I believe
they're going to happen. Yeah, exactly.
You suddenly happened. Yeah, right.
Because there are millions of versions of you in the in the
quantum field. Yeah.

(01:02:40):
And you've just got to like, because what you did in prison
by collapsing time is what you did is you shifted your
identity. Absolutely.
You shifted from being a prisoner to being free and doing
the things that you wanted to do, Right.
And so from this 5, we've got tobe the person that we want.

(01:03:01):
Like whatever you want to become, you gotta be that person
right now. Yes, do the things that person
would do and you have it. And the one thing that we just
always need to add in is and then you gotta take action.
Absolutely. Yeah.
Yeah. Cause some people think all the
things gonna happen and do it onthe head and then they don't do
anything in reality. But you gotta take.
Action and my my philosophy is you gotta be aware of what's

(01:03:21):
going on, go on a discovery, become curious about it, and
then take action. O let's talk a little bit about
your moving into the tick. You've found a bit of condo and
I had to play with that. And last time we met.
What inspired you to build that app and focused on helping
people to communicate more empathetically?

(01:03:43):
It's a bit of Condo. Yeah.
Is an app that people can use tohelp them have a courageous
conversation with the person in real life in a way that is
clear, empathetic and compassionate.
Hmm. And so the nuts and bolts of how
the app works as you can input asituation and an example could

(01:04:04):
be, Hey, my flatmate lift the kitchen dirty last night.
So and then and then you can enter at a you could be prompted
to enter a couple of feelings. You might be feeling annoyed and
a bit curious about what it did because they always leave it
clean, clean. And then you can enter a request
and you can say this is how you want to talk to the person.

(01:04:25):
You put something like, I want you to keep it clean.
And this is because everything this this sends are called to
open a I and I've got a lot of prompting in the background,
which will then give a suggestedscript for the person to say in
real life. And it's based on an empathic
communication model, so the GPT might return something like hey

(01:04:46):
and noticed last night when I came back, I back home, there
was cutlery left on the kitchen bench.
I'm feeling a little bit annoyedand and and curious about why
there was things on the bench. Would you help me to understand

(01:05:07):
why the kitchen wasn't cleaning?And can we talk about a way that
we can both ensure cleanliness and beauty for our kitchen?
Cause that's really important tome.
So it goes into this, like in the background, it's going
through an observation, stating an observation, you're stating
how you're feeling, you're stating your need or what you're
wanting and you're making a clear actionable request to the
person. And so this is what got me

(01:05:30):
interested in this is that I've been working on my communication
for many years now. Yeah.
So the very, very worst kind of communication I've done is
physical violence. And you know, I'm all the scales
back up to being completely compassionate, empathetic and
caring. You know, there's, there's a

(01:05:50):
wide range. And I've been trying to slowly
improve my communication over many years, including going to
communication training workshops.
And I've been doing these workshops as well with my
partner. And so when I was I started this
coding boot camp with Take Two last August.
And so I was learning HTML, CSS,JavaScript.

(01:06:12):
These are quite tricky words, bit of jargon, React, Mongo DB
about APIs, databases, building servers and things like that.
And I knew that at the end of the the course, I'd need to
build a graduation project. And so I was talking with my

(01:06:33):
partner overtime and we had a bunch of ideas, you know, put
them into a spreadsheet. And, and I mean, there's so many
things that we can build now as,as developers and as, as people
in tech or even just, yeah, richperson can build some amazing
stuff now without too much coding knowledge.
But the, the, the real, I had a real world problem.
I want to. I want to build something that's

(01:06:55):
gonna help me to speak well and in talking with my friends,
family, colleagues, my partner, this was a problem that many
people had. They've walked away from a
conversation and then they've thought, geez, I wish I could
have said they're better or I I wish I would have see the little
bit different. And so this.

(01:07:16):
So that's where better convoy came came in my mind.
It was like, I want to build an app that's gonna help people
speak with clarity and Kathy. Encourage, yeah.
And that app is available to forpeople to use.
Absolutely yes. Where can they find?
It I can share a link with you? Yeah.
We'll put on the show notes. Yeah, absolutely.
Cool. Alright, awesome.
How has your own journey shaped the way for your approach,

(01:07:38):
leadership and innovation today?The big thing for me is having a
growth mindset. Leadership is about doing what
you say and saying what you do, and it's about being a role
model and setting a good example.
Integrity, right? Integrity and there's different
styles of leadership and I thinkthere might be different kinds

(01:08:01):
of leadership that may be neededin different roles or different
contexts. But for me, leadership is, is
being open to trying new things and getting taking on people's
input, getting buy in, getting making sure people feel heard
and involved in the process. Yeah.
And like, they matter because I think it at the end of the day,

(01:08:22):
we all walk around with an invisible sign on our Sid that
that says make me feel like I matter.
We all want to matter. We all want to feel important.
Wanna be validated? Yeah, yeah.
We all want to see the the value.
We all want to know that people see the value that that we
believe we. Have yeah, you're interesting
thing. Back in 21 I was seeking
validation from my general manager where I was working and

(01:08:45):
I was listening to the On Purpose podcast with Jay Shetty.
Yes, and he said you don't need validation from anyone except
for yourself. Completely changed my life.
From that day onwards I didn't seek validation from anyone.
Well, I tried very hard not to. Hmm.
And so for that, you know, it's like everything you need an
answer to is already within you.And it's about inside out.

(01:09:10):
Hmm. If you look at the movie Inside
out, Yeah, that's exactly, it's a great movie and it's all about
our emotions and so on. And so often we seek, we, we
seek validation all we seek our answers from external.
But then you're working on otherpeople's perceptions.
So. Absolutely, so it's best best to

(01:09:31):
just work in your own perceptionand and work through challenges
but go internal cause from within.
All the answers are there. Yeah.
And and for The Who is it? Don't know Jay Shelley comes
from this background of going into being a monk monkey from a
number of years. Yeah.
So I do think that that what you're talking about is probably

(01:09:52):
the the highest form of self actualisation and self
realisation. I do think it's it's a hard bar
to sit from people. And I do think that we are
humans and we've built to connect, we're built to relate.
And that can only happen in relationship with others.
Yeah. And I think that is very
important for us to be able to validate ourselves.
Yeah. To be able to see our own value.

(01:10:12):
Yeah. And like through my experience,
I've also learned that there will be times when I don't
believe in myself or there will be times when I doubt myself.
And it's in those moments when I, when I reach out for support
that it's really important that it's there for me just being a
human. And that's just my.
Experience. I mean, look, Jay and I, we both
come from our families, come from the same part of India.

(01:10:34):
We've both both went through similar relationship challenges.
Because I've listened to his podcast.
I think although like, you know,people got ohh, he was a monk
and he's like up there. Yeah, no, he was just a normal
person, and he was in a monastery going to observe and
learn about himself, which made him a better person.

(01:10:58):
And then he came back to the theworld sick of the world.
And he's just been really sharing his what he learned,
right? I know a lot of people have
judged him based on her history and so on.
But I think look, you know, if you, if you're sitting out on
the fences judging, you're not actually playing the game.

(01:11:21):
So if you want to play the game,come onto the field and play the
game and be part of the the game, you know, don't be a
spectator. That life is not a spectator
sport. Life is a, a sport where you get
involved in and do it right. And so there's a lot of people
out there who are not even willing to observe themselves.

(01:11:43):
And I think whenever we're goingthrough things, the best thing
to do is to really stop, pause, breathe and and justice.
Zoom out of yourself, come out of yourself and observe
yourself. What are what's going on right
now? Alright, what can I do?
What power do I have? And it's about turning the pain

(01:12:04):
into power. And it's an internal power,
right? And as you said before, through
the darkness comes the light, right?
You got the dark sun. Yeah.
The light comes out. Yeah.
You've got to go through the darkness to be able to get to
the light. And it's just the way it is.
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah, and I'm a big fan of Jay Shah and yeah, a lot of respect

(01:12:24):
for story and yeah. And I think what you said, yeah,
I agree with the key is, is to build that self-awareness, that
self insight and and through that self reflection practise.
Yeah. Yeah, and a simple way to do it
is. What did I do well that I want
to happen and what were the results?
And if the results didn't match up with you wanted to happen as

(01:12:45):
I say, OK, what, what 11 or 2% change can I make to try and
iterate towards the results I dowant?
Yeah. And repeating that process,
yeah, over and over again, iterating towards that, the
reality that you want. Yeah.
But you need to have that reflect the process to get.
There. Absolutely.
Yeah. All right, Last, last question
for you before we go into the quick fire.

(01:13:05):
Questions for someone who's listening today and they're
stuck, feeling stuck. They're ashamed of their past,
or they're struggling to believethat change is possible.
One piece of advice you'd give them.
I'd say to anyone who's struggling, not believing in
themselves, you are loved, you are valued, you are important

(01:13:27):
and reach out to someone and andtalk to them and let them know
what's going on for you. Because it the power of being
human is that we can connect with other humans and through
that connection we can get our needs for validation, love,
meaning purpose, value met. So they'll be my number one
thing. I'd say it's it's ask for help

(01:13:49):
when you need it because 9 timesout of 10 people will say yes in
life and nine times out of 10 ifyou're picking the right people
they will support you and encourage you.
Absolutely, Yeah. Yeah.
And are there any practical steps you'd like to share?
A practical step would be following the following
sequence. When X happened I felt why would

(01:14:09):
you be able to see? So when I got rejected yesterday
and the drop off, I felt really sad.
Would you be able to listen to me and acknowledge that this is
a tough moment for me? Hmm.
So yeah, so understanding how you felt your emotions,
connecting with your emotions, right?

(01:14:31):
Yeah, cause we've been told not to.
Yeah. Not to field dimensions, which
is completely wrong. Yeah.
Alright. So feel the emotion.
Yeah. Cause human need is like you're
self esteem is made-up of your needs, your motions and your
boundaries. And you could look after all
three of those. Yes.
Yeah. All right, so.
And a lot of people, I mean, it's reality that some people

(01:14:53):
won't have those supportive people in their life or in their
network. So there are free services, free
online services that people can call up to get, you know, that
kind of counselling and all that, the air that we can speak
to. So maybe that somebody could in
the show notes as well. Yeah, a link to a few online
services. Absolutely, yes, Yeah,
absolutely. Now I've got 6 questions

(01:15:16):
answered in a single word or a very short sentence.
What's your definition of success and hesitate definition
change for you overtime? Being a positive role model and
having a positive impact on the world.
Nice, he's been your greatest inspiration and why?
Doctor Paul Wood. Hmm, Unbelievable inspiration to
me. Still now to know that that he's

(01:15:37):
the reason I believe that changeis possible because.
Because I saw him in the newspaper and I wrote to him and
then I've I've met him in real life now.
Nice. And yeah.
Well. Thankfully, inspiration.
Well, something that you believethat others might disagree with.
We all make mistakes and we all deserve a second chance.
If you could go back and give your younger self some advice,

(01:16:00):
what would it be? I'll tell him you were loved.
You're special and I'm gonna keep you safe.
Hmm, what's 1 message would you like to share with the world?
So the message I'd like to shareof the world is that anything is
possible if you put your mind toit and believe in yourself and
back yourself by surrounding yourself with the positive

(01:16:22):
support network. Absolutely, 100%.
And last question is, and this is double barrel, like what does
it mean to you to be a champion and to have a champion mindset?
Being a champion to me is accepting the tough things are

(01:16:43):
gonna happen and when you get knocked down, dust yourself off,
get back up and try again. That's what being a champion is
to me. It's not about winning all the
time, but it's about believing that getting up every time it's
gonna get you to where you want to be.
Yeah, and like, thank you for that.

(01:17:06):
Like in a previous case, said Liz.
Paul, I think it was just said that while you're down there,
see what what else you can dust off and make better before you
can get back up. Well, thank you, Sean.
It's been an amazing episode today.
It's been great talking with youand really she, you know, it's
interesting. We've got so much in common.

(01:17:29):
You know, I felt like I'd been in prison, having been in an
ashram for six years. Yeah, it's it's really amazing
to see you change your life, change your direction of your
life and become the person that you are today.
So well done. Congratulations on doing that.
And I'm sure that you made yourself and your family proud.
To our listeners, if Sean's story has touched you and

(01:17:53):
inspired you and gave you hope, please share this episode with
someone that could actually benefit from this.
And until next time, remember that you are worthy, you are
loved. Champion your life and champion
your greatness and have an amazing day.

All Episodes

S2-E134 - From Prisoner to Programmer Transforming Adversity into Success - Sean Selby

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

On Purpose with Jay Shetty

Stuff You Should Know

Dateline NBC

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}S2-E134 - From Prisoner to Programmer Transforming Adversity into Success - Sean Selby