April 20, 2022 • 37 mins
Nearly every professional has felt like a fraud at one time or another and the higher you advance in leadership and responsibility, the more likely moments of inadequacy or "being found out" occur. While the drive to be confident in professional roles can have its benefits, it also tends to raise the likelihood of imposter syndrome emerging. Jen Coken is a comedian, coach, speaker, and Imposter Syndrome expert. She transforms womxn executives and founders from being stuck and fearful of making the wrong decision, to owning their expertise, having confidence in the direction they’re headed, and the courage to be with the uncertainty. She shares client examples of recognizing where their imposter syndrome initiated, how it became their superpower, and how they moved through the "fraud" to become more effective leaders. Hear the different types of imposters and ways to flip your narrative to work more for you.
Show Notes:
Jen Coken
Take the Quiz
Imposter Syndrome is your Super Power
Wynning Your Way for Senior Leaders
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Michael Kithcart (00:00):
Hello, I'm Michael W Kithcart, high
performance leadership coach andthe creator of the winning your
way framework. Welcome to thechampions of risk podcast, where
I feature business and thoughtleaders who share stories of
triumphs, tough calls and bestpractices. So you're better
equipped to navigate ongoinguncertainty, take inspired
action and define what it meansto be winning your way in
(00:23):
business and in life. Have youever felt like a fraud, that
you're just waiting for peopleto discover that you don't know
what you're doing? Or whatyou're talking about? Or maybe
that you're not even as good asyou? They think that you were?
Even when you know, it's not thetruth? Do you still sometimes
think it? Statisticallyspeaking, nearly everyone has
(00:46):
thought along those lines, atleast some time, both men and
women, it can affect anyone, butit's more likely to affect high
achieving individuals highachieving individuals who happen
to listen to the champions ofthis podcast, they vary each
other. This is why we need tobreak this down. Research has
shown that 75% of womenexecutives have experienced what
(01:11):
we're talking about here, whichis imposter syndrome. So what is
it? And what if impostorsyndrome was actually your
superpower, my guest today, JenCoken is going to break it all
down for us, recognized by ABC,MSNBC and TEDx. Jen is a
comedian, coach, speaker andimpostor syndrome expert. She
(01:35):
transforms women executives andfounders from being stuck and
fearful of making the wrongdecision to owning their
expertise, having confidence inthe direction they're headed,
and the courage to be with theiruncertainty. Fortune 500 CEOs
and seven figure founders trustJen to shake things up with no
apologies, no Limits at all.
Did I mention, she's a comedian?
(01:57):
Jen, welcome to the podcast.
Jen Coken (01:59):
Thank you so much for having me here. Michael. It's a
pleasure to be here.
Michael Kithcart (02:02):
Oh, I feel like this is going to be a
personal coaching session.
Jen Coken (02:07):
It could be nothing lines up that way. That's okay.
As long as you're okay. I'mokay. You're okay.
Michael Kithcart (02:13):
And hopefully this is all right. This is all
in the spirit of helping otherswho are going to be listening to
this podcast episode. So Jen,you are a comedian, and you're
an impostor syndrome expert. Sowhich caused which?
Jen Coken (02:30):
Well, neither cause the other I've been a comedian
since Oh, my gosh, 2005. So whenI lived out in Denver, I used to
like, you know, made made it mybusiness for about 10 years,
like performing every week,performing every week. Then I
got married, and my ex hadlittle, little kids. And so
going on stage at midnight, orone o'clock in the morning does
(02:50):
not do well for getting a littlekids up dressed, getting
breakfast in them, getting themin the car, getting them to
school, you know, so I hopefullywasn't giving them coffee while
I was trying to drive the car.
So, you know, comedy, for me hasalways been a part and parcel of
who I am the way that I coachpeople when I'm speaking. You
know, comedy is this momentwhere as a comedian is telling a
(03:13):
story or relaying a story aboutthemselves, there's this moment
of tension, and then they make alittle joke for at their own
expense. And people are able tolaugh because that moment of
tension, they're seeingthemselves in the comedian like,
Oh, my God. Yeah, I think thatway, too. I always integrate
that with my coaching. Becausesome research has shown that any
new behavior takes somethinglike 600 repetitions to stick
(03:35):
some research has shown when youadd play, it gets reduced to 12.
So I love Wow, yeah, right. 600To 12 to 12. So I love adding
humor and playfulness. Now,what's interesting for me is, I
didn't even know impostersyndrome existed or even think
(03:57):
about it till about 2018 2018,something like that. When I had
a really, really tough year, Iwas coaching for a big fortune
100 company that had a toxicworkplace culture. And I was not
able to stay grounded in who Iwas as a coach, because I've
(04:17):
been a coach 25 years. So Iwasn't able to navigate that and
found myself in retrospect,sucked into that toxic workplace
culture. And it wasn't until Irealized what was happening
through one of my coaches that Idistinguished where impostor
syndrome showed up for me andhere's where the comedy and the
imposter syndrome really hookedtogether. Everybody has a unique
(04:40):
version of impostor syndrome. Isay that and why say it can be
your superpower. So what I foundover the years working with
women and coaching hundreds ofwomen and some dudes, but mostly
women, because that's my passionbecause of what I went through
and we always coach, rightpeople that were that the who we
were previously kind of thingWhat I find is that something
(05:01):
there's some incident andoriginating incident that
happened somewhere between zeroand 12 1314. That becomes this
defining moment. For me it waswhen I was six. So I had a crush
on Keith Birkby. He was supercute wore glasses just like me.
And so did my friend, MichelleCook, administer. And we decided
at six how we should figure outwho he liked, was by chasing
(05:23):
around the schoolyard veryprecocious six year old chasing
her on the schoolyard in thesnow in Michigan and pushing him
in the snow and then seeing whohe would kiss. So we did that.
And he kissed Michelle and helooked at me and said Eww!
heartbroken. Six years old, wasthe first time your heart was
broken. I was six it was goodburpee on the playground. And so
(05:44):
and and all my friends, youknow, all the other kids were
watching and laughed, hugeembarrassment. And the brain
doesn't like negative emotions.
The brain is constantly tryingto figure out how do I save you?
How do I make sure you don't geteaten by a dinosaur or
embarrassed any of thosenegative emotions. And so who I
(06:05):
became to make up for it, mystrategy was be the funny
sidekick. And I became the classclown. And by the way, my whole
career, while it was coaching, Iwas also in politics, and it was
all about push, I got otherpeople elected. I pushed other
people's agendas. So when I wentinto business for myself six
years ago, that's when thiswhole thing reared its ugly
(06:25):
head. And so when I was able tounlock that I was able to
separate what actually happened,which is Keith said ewww! and
people laughed. Yeah.
Michael Kithcart (06:37):
So basically, that could probably be a mantra
for a lot of us, right? Keith,who pretty much sums it up. in
anybody else's experience. Theymight change. But, exactly,
Jen Coken (06:56):
And that and that's what I say to people. Look, I
was talking with a client acouple of weeks ago, when she
was really upset. She wasn't aclient yet in the thick of
things. And she said, I justfeel so unworthy. I just feel
like I don't deserve my success.
And I and she goes in this isn'tbeen going on very long. It's
recent. I said, Really? When didit start? She took a pause and
she said, oh my god atChristmas, my sister reached out
and said, What do you want ourbudget to be for Christmas
(07:17):
gifts? I said $100. She said,Oh, that sounds like a lot in
that moment. She took that tomean her sister didn't think
well of her. She just was drivento be the best but never really
satisfied and didn't deservesuccess. And all these things
that she made up and all hersister said was, that seems like
(07:38):
a lot for you. I said, What ifshe that was her way of saying I
love you. So that's key, we makeup stuff. Yeah, we make up
stories. We want to learn how toseparate fact from fiction.
Michael Kithcart (07:49):
Yes. You mentioned that you really kind
of discovered impostor syndromeand what it was because of this
toxic work environment you'recoaching in but the years kind
of surprised me, right? Like2018, 2019, because it just
feels like now, impostersyndrome just gets brought up
(08:11):
all the time. So what is it?
What does it really?
Jen Coken (08:17):
Yeah, well, what is impostor syndrome? Why is it
keep getting brought up?
Michael Kithcart (08:20):
What What is it first? All right.
Jen Coken (08:22):
So the definition it was it was it was discovered
distinguished by two researchersback in the 70s, who said that
it was an experience of feelinglike a fraud by highly
successful people. Suzanne Imes,Pauline Clance. I'm sorry, I'm,
as I always get her last namewrong. And at that time, they
thought women had it more thanmen because men had more
(08:43):
testosterone. And that was aconfidence hormone. But as you
said, In the beginning, when wewere introduced in this topic,
70 75% of all, everyone who's ina leadership position, a high
achiever, really anyone has hadthe experience of feeling like a
fraud or an impostor at somepoint in time. I think it's just
become, it unfortunately, hasbecome a way of labeling people,
(09:06):
which I don't agree with. Andpeople want to shy away because
it's negative. I don't seeimpostor syndrome is negative
look, earlier today. I wasworking on some messaging last
week with my team, and we hadthis huge epiphany. And one of
my team members wrote this blog,and I'm crying and bawling.
Because finally, I feel like,you know, for six years, I've
(09:26):
had my own company, and we'vebeen dancing around the message,
and what's the right thing? AndI'm like, Oh, my God, this is
it. I said, but can I be thisbraggadocious? And like, content
writer goes, well, I don't know.
Jen Coken would say if you don'texperience imposter syndrome, at
some point in time, you're notplaying a big enough game, but
it was like, Don't you use mycoaching on me. Stop that!
(09:49):
But that's the thing is thatbecause the brain works the way
it does, you know, 50 to 60,000thoughts a day. 80 to 85% are
negative 90 to 95 percentrepetitive. It's constantly
determining threats. So when westretch ourselves when we are
the only one in the room whereit happens, because so few women
are in these high levelleadership positions, so few
(10:11):
women have six figure companies,they don't, you know, only like
12% of women owned businessesmake it to six figures in 3% to
seven figures. There's very fewpeople that look like us and
women of color as a whole, evenbigger deal, right? Because
there's even fewer at thatpoint. We want to try to fit in,
(10:32):
we think nobody can understandus. We feel that fear, which
isn't necessarily real at allthat fear. It's the fear of, you
know, well, what happens if Iget too successful? What if I
sabotage myself? None of thatfear is real. And I think it's
so big right now, because peoplehave like glommed on to it as
this label as a negative thing.
And I'm here to turn that suckeron its head. Yep, exactly.
Michael Kithcart (10:57):
Okay. You mentioned that people like
women, especially like we don'tsee ourselves in a lot of the
roles, we tend to be the onlyone in the room, the higher we
go up into leadership roles andeverything. What about other
like societal, systemic issuesare contributing to the actual
(11:18):
condition of imposter syndrome?
Jen Coken (11:21):
It's the patriarchy baby. You know, I mean, it in
many, many ways you think about,we look at epigenetics, and how
we are born into a patriarchalsociety in our DNA are the cells
and the memories of all thosewomen who came before us that
were treated as property, right,your Hope Chest that you were
(11:41):
gave to your mate when yourfather married you, we carry
that stuff with us in our DNA.
And the way business has beenstructured was traditionally
founded by white men. So thereare certain structural pieces
that add to that I think more asmore and more women get into
positions of leadership, as moreand more black and brown people
(12:04):
get into positions ofleadership, you're seeing a
higher emphasis on community,and interdependence, and being
vulnerable and having that beokay. Because for a long time,
you weren't allowed to bevulnerable work. I want women to
show up with all all themselves.
All yours, be yourself. Becausethere's only one you and we need
(12:26):
that leadership. From women atthe top. Absolutely. Yeah.
Michael Kithcart (12:32):
What happens when the feedback that you get
as a female executive is like,Yes, I'm being my true authentic
self, and then it comes off asthat's too much. You're intense,
you're intimidating, you areoverbearing, you know, just like
(12:53):
all these words that have shownup on performance reviews for
you. So sometimes you right, sosometimes it feels like it's a
little bit dangerous to have mytrue authentic self show up. And
so what are you gonna say aboutthat?
Jen Coken (13:12):
Find a new job.
That's like my show.
Michael Kithcart (13:16):
That is the right environment for you.
Jen Coken (13:18):
It's not No, no, it is not. Look, I was told I was
too much. I was extra, get overit. And what people say about
you is none of your business.
what others are saying about youis it's their stuff, not yours.
What other people say about you,as absolutely none of your
business, what you say about youmake that your business, be able
(13:39):
to go to sleep at night, be ableto look in the mirror that comes
up on our performance review,and has no place in my book to
be on a performance review. Inmy opinion, especially if it's
written down. That's one thingbut to say to somebody, huh? I'm
too much. I'm extra. I'm toodirect. How would you like me to
be? You'll get your answer. Andthen you'll know when to start
(14:03):
looking. Thank you for giving methat gift of sharing with me how
you would like me to be becausethat's not me. And I'm going to
be unique to myself.
Michael Kithcart (14:13):
When you're working with people on impostor
syndrome, I'm curious, like, howoften as you're unraveling it,
is there a discovery that inthis thought process of like
you're not good enough andthings like that, that it really
stems from? You're not showingyour true self like you're
(14:33):
holding back? Where's thattension? Within that, that
syndrome? Well, is it not there?
Jen Coken (14:43):
So it's you it's distinct for me because the work
that I do with my clients is Itake them on an embodied
meditation to get back to themoment where impostor syndrome,
what I call their originatingincident. So I had to When I do
a master class or a workshopfour times a year with six women
(15:05):
at the table, okay? And I'mcurrently on between session two
and three, it's only threesessions. But it is a life
altering for people. And I'mworking with this woman. And
what we got to know she wasabout eight or nine she was at
and going through themeditation, I tell people just
go with a memory that you have,don't try to make it mean
anything, don't try to searchfor answers, because that's your
mind your ego trying to searchfor that. And that's also your
(15:27):
subconscious, we actually wantto get to the level of your
superconscious, that divineinspiration where you're
connected to your intuition and,and who you truly are. So she
gets this memory of being at heraunt's house, and her little
cousin was giving away all thesename brand clothes, and they
didn't have a lot of money. Soeverybody's picking through it.
And she picks up a pair of whitejeans. And her aunt says, Oh,
(15:48):
honey, those will never fit you.
You're too big. So she makes ita point to go into the bedroom.
And she said I did everything Idid the jeans wiggle, I took a
hanger and put it in the thinglike we used to do when there
was no given our jeans back inthe 70s and tried to get it up
and she couldn't get on, getthem on. And I said well, how
did that make you feel? She saidI was embarrassed. They said
yes. And there's a way you'rethe brain doesn't want you to
(16:10):
feel embarrassed. The braindoesn't want to experience those
negative emotions, the brainsmart, it's going to figure out
how to solve the problem. So whodid you become? So you never had
to deal with embarrassment?
Again, she goes, I got reallydetermined and driven I was
going to show them. I saidexactly how does that work,
super successful businesswoman.
But let me tell you something,she's never satisfied with her
(16:31):
results. Because it doesn't comefrom a place of choice and a
place of power. And what wasreally beautiful is last week,
she sent us a picture of her anda pair of white jeans, because
for 40 years, she wouldn't puton white jeans. And she went out
and got a pair and she lookedgorgeous. And that's what she
was wearing. And now she has theopportunity and possibility of
being successful and feelingthat instead of trying to be as
(16:53):
successful on top of beingdetermined to avoid feeling
embarrassed. So it's gettingback to that acorn, that nugget
of truth and of gold. And as faras I can tell, most people have
three or five of these littlenuggets that drive our whole
lives then you have an upsetnine year old drive in your life
like you want that that personcan't even reach the pedals. You
(17:14):
don't want that person behindthe wheel of the car.
Michael Kithcart (17:18):
Yes, such a great thing. That story was just
explained a lot. Yeah, it justdoes. Are there different types
of imposters?
Jen Coken (17:30):
Yes, and there are many books that have been
written on it. And what I see isgenerally it's people who are
people pleasers. Now, this issomething that I recently
discovered, which is you know,fight flight or freeze. There's
also something called fawn,which I'm like, Oh my God,
that's me where you fawn overpeople to get them to like you.
(17:52):
Uh huh. And then there's thenthere's possum, where you just
want to play that and get peopleto leave you alone.
Michael Kithcart (17:57):
Oh, great. So you're fun. I'm probably possum.
Jen Coken (18:01):
Yeah, I'm I'm definitely a foreigner. And so
it's people who you know, aretrying to get it right. They
gotta get everything. These arethe people pleasers, the
perfectionist, theprocrastinators, I actually have
a quiz that's based on Dr.
Valerie Young's book, where shelooks at competency types ways
that people have becomecompetent. And she names five
types, the perfectionist, thenatural genius, everything comes
(18:23):
really easy. I'm Superman orwoman, people that are defined
by their work, the soloist, theperson who's got to go alone,
and not ask for help. And thenthe expert, the one who's
consistently going aftercredentials and more knowledge
before they can feel like theyare an expert. I kind of tweaked
those because I found thateverybody is a little bit unique
in their expression of it. Soyou can try to fit into those.
(18:45):
Or you can say, you know, mine'sunique. Let me do this embodied
meditation and figure out, butthe quiz will give you a lot of
insights for yourself. Andthat's Gen koken quiz.com, which
I'm sure you can put in theshow. You'll put that in. And
then what do they call it? Thenotes on your potshots? Yeah,
the show notes, the show notes?
(19:06):
Yes. No.
Michael Kithcart (19:07):
Yes. technical term. Yes. Right. Okay, that's
great. I hope everybody thatlistens, takes it and then posts
what they are. Mean. That's oneway to just like, let's get on
with this. What are some of thecommon triggers that you most
often hear from women that kindof put them interesting?
Jen Coken (19:31):
Yeah, it's either in their relationship to authority.
So someone you know, as a youngkid, like everybody is a
position of authority, you know,your teachers, your parents,
etc. So it's something like myfriend's aunt who said, Oh,
honey, those will never fit you.
Well, I'll show you. I'm gonnado everything I can to get into
him and you know, so it's youryour relationship to authority
(19:52):
and how it agency and at the ageof five, six and seven or eight
or nine, whatever it is, you'reeveryone else was more thorough.
At the New Deal, you're supposedto listen to them. So case in
point, I had a client early onwho brought a C home on a test.
And her dad was kind of a gruffguy. And like what's up with the
C and Dad, it's average, give me1500 words on mediocre and bam,
she was embarrassed. She feltlike she had to please her dad.
(20:17):
So she wrote the essay. But shehad to get it right, because she
never wanted to be embarrassedagain, which propelled her to
great heights. However, it showsup in her relationship to male
authority figures, compared toanother client who was in a
class with in the fourth grade,and she was new to the school
and everyone was picking asubject to speak about. And she
(20:39):
was a little shy, so she hadn'traised her hand yet got toward
the end, there was two words,she raises her hand and says,
I'll take baths, and everyone inthe class laughed, and some kids
said, That's bass. Now, I saidto her, did you give the speech?
Yeah, I got an A on it. Did youask your teacher for help?
Absolutely. So her trigger withimpostor syndrome is not about
(20:59):
her relationship to authority.
It's her relationship to peers,and not fitting in and not
belonging. So there's differentand this is part of the work I
do in the in the cohorts that Ithat I teach the three cohort,
once we get to that nugget ofgold, you know, the truth will
set you free, but we'll make youmad. First, once we get to that
(21:20):
nugget of gold, then you spendtime noticing what the triggers
are, what are the situations youare in that it comes up? So you
can start to get good atcatching it and being a witness
to those thoughts and practicenon reactivation being an
impartial witness to thosethoughts rather than being
reactivated? Which you're noteven being reactivated?
Michael Kithcart (21:42):
Once you have that awareness, then you can do
something about it and sayexactly, I'm gonna go back just
a little bit to this. You know,now all of a sudden, imposter
syndrome is everywhere. Eventhough the it was coined, like
back in the 70s. So sometimes,I'm in these situations in
(22:04):
coaching sessions to where womenin particular will rattle off.
They have impostor syndrome,along with everything else. You
know, I'm a perfectionist, andI'm a workaholic. And I have a
fear of failing. And I this andI'm that, right, like, all in,
they all get rolled up intothis. Here's all the things that
are wrong with me. Now, how dowe fix it? And it's just kind of
(22:29):
it's like, I'm curious about it,right? I'm like, What, whoa,
whoa, whoa, whoa, like, wheredid all this come from? Like,
why are you all of these things?
When I, we, we've been talkingabout this. And as we've been
going along, it feels likethere's actually a connection to
all of them. It's not likethey're isolated things. But you
mentioned like impostersyndrome. There's this there
(22:49):
could be a sign of perfectionismout of it, or that's, but it's
almost like it's a result of,rather than a cause of, I don't
know, I'm just playing this alittle. Yeah.
Jen Coken (23:03):
I mean, I think we are constantly as humans seeking
out answers and more informationis never going to make a
difference. I don't care if yousaid, you know, I know I have
listened to equals MC squared.
No, it's not because you'restill dealing at the level of
learning. And as smart as yourclients are, if that actually
was the answer, they'd be free,they wouldn't need you. That's
why people hire coaches, becausewe can hear things in the
(23:25):
unheard we can hear what isn'tbeing said. So all this like
rambling up. No, that's you'reactually no, it's none of that.
Now, what's more interesting tome is that you came to all these
conclusions because conclusionsnever make a difference. It's
being able to be in wonder, andcuriosity and being able to, you
know, be with uncertainty. Ialways think of Brian or Maria
(23:47):
railcar, and his quote oflearning to love the questions,
like locked rooms that you haveyet to have the key to, because
you're really not ready to knowthe answers. But when they you
well, as long as you learn tolove the questions, because
that's the brilliance of thehuman mind is we have our best
aha moments when we're workingthe way scientists do, right?
(24:08):
When we bump up against thingsand problems and solutions and
awesome push, we see some wehadn't seen before that we never
considered so your clients mayhave all the answers, but none
of that are leading them to thepot of gold. That's why they
need you. That's why they needme.
Michael Kithcart (24:22):
Yes. Wow.
That's a beautiful way of sayingit. A lot of times we'll get
into the point of like, so howis that working for you? Like
what's working what's notbecause you're, you're getting
something out of it, otherwise,you wouldn't keep doing it.
Right. Right. And, and that thenwill usually open a few doors,
as you say, Yep. On the otherend, some may want to resist
(24:44):
that impostor syndrome label. Sohow do you help both like the
self describers like I justmeant, oh, and also the avoiders
like, oh, No, that's not me.
Well,
Jen Coken (25:01):
I mean, look, we're our own worst enemy. And we're
also the ones who knowourselves. Well, you know,
again, I think what people areshying away from is being
labeled. So I've had plenty ofpeople that have gotten on into
I used to do just anintroductory workshop to
impostor syndrome. They're like,wait a minute, I micromanage
(25:22):
Wait a minute, I don't likedelegating. Wait a minute, I
don't like asking for help.
You're telling me those arehallmarks of imposter syndrome.
Yeah, all those are pieces ofimpostor syndrome. So you could
say, I suppose that everything'spart of impostor syndrome, of
feeling like a fraud, or feelinglike you're not enough, I
suppose, you know, are youavoiding because it doesn't
(25:42):
resonate with you? Are youavoiding because you don't like
being labeled? Are you avoidingbecause you're unwilling to look
at your own stuff, we arealways, you know, authenticity
and author come from the sameroot word, we are the author of
our journey, which means thatthe good, the bad and the ugly,
the brain wants to protect thething. It's a brain of which is
(26:03):
you so it doesn't want to havethose negative thoughts. So my
guess is that's why people areavoiding it. They're avoiding
it. Good for you keep avoidingit. Let me know how that goes.
Right.
Michael Kithcart (26:15):
Okay. You talk about how you can actually use
imposter syndrome as yoursuperpower. Yep. So how does
Jen Coken (26:23):
Well, it's actually the the work where people what I
that work?
was describing earlier about thewoman in the white jeans, right,
where she became determined, andthat's really bankrupt. But at
the same time, her determinationhas, she's already had one, two
successful companies, and she'sworking on her third. So being
(26:43):
determined isn't bad. It'sgotten her to great heights, it
just hasn't been fulfilling. SoI help people see that the way
they've tried to make up for,you know, or the way the brain
has attempted to strategize soit doesn't feel embarrassed or
thwarted or disappointed, or allthose things. Those ways of
(27:03):
being and acting are absolutelytheir strategies for success.
They're just not fulfilling. Sonow, can she choose to be
determined? Because it's achoice? Rather than as the
result of something or as the atthe effect of something?
Michael Kithcart (27:20):
Because framing it differently can
change the outcome.
Jen Coken (27:23):
Yes. And that and that. Yeah, absolutely. And
that's the new viewpoint, right?
That's the new viewpoint thatsomebody can have as we're
reframing the conversation.
However, it isn't reframing. Idon't know, I don't know how to
say this. Like, on one hand, youcould say it's reframing. But
it's not like we're taking thisbook and turning the cover over
(27:45):
taking a book and you're lookingat the front cover, and I'm
reframing it by looking at theback cover. No, no, we're
tossing out the book. And nowit's a lipstick because we're
getting to the root ofsomething. And we're
disappearing, that thing we'rechiseling away at. It's like
Michelangelo when he was asked,How did you discover David? And
he said, David was in the marblethe whole time, I just had to
carve away everything thatwasn't him, the angel was in the
marble all along. So as theangel in the marble for each of
(28:08):
us, it's the ability to be ableto chisel away and let go of
that which doesn't serve, whichis the work that I do with my
clients. So it's reframing. Yes,but I don't want to use that.
It's a paradigm shift. You know,it's a new paradigm. So reframe
to me means you still have theframe. You're just switching up
your viewpoint.
Michael Kithcart (28:28):
Yeah, changing the angle. And this is more of
an overhaul. Yep, got it. And Ilove that. It's like you're
letting some some partsdisintegrate and just having
something new form out of it.
Even though there's still somesome like familiarity around it.
Jen Coken (28:44):
Yeah. And then that's that familiarity, I think
sometimes is what people whypeople want to avoid it. I have
a dear friend who I love and shenever wants to do any work on
herself because she's afraid atthe end of the day, she's gonna
find out something horrible likeyou're amazing. Like How could
you even okay, I get it but thisthat's her particular brand of
crazy we all have our own brandof crazy you know what I mean?
We all I feel like I got mybrand you got your brand that's
(29:08):
her brand new crazy. I thinkthat avoidance like there's
always a way through we justhave to be willing to go.
Michael Kithcart (29:15):
Right sometimes that fear is that
you'll lose your edge because ithas provided so much success for
you. Right that driving force itit has so if I let that go if I
you know shift around it. Well,I still have success and so
well. I'll use like your your,your comedian, industry, right
(29:39):
community, sometimes we'll havesubstance abuse and then it's
like, okay, if I if Iacknowledged that I'm an
alcoholic, and I'm no longerdrinking, will I still be funny?
Jen Coken (29:48):
Will I still be funny? And you know, it's so
interesting. I'm been takingvoice lessons for the last six
months, which has been reallyfun. And I've always I've sung
here and there, but I can not Ithad even one drink before I sing
because it changes your vocalcords. Now, you know, people
like Oh, I'm gonna take a quickshot to lose myself before I go
up on stage. I cannot do any ofthat. Because I'm not present.
(30:13):
And presence is the biggest giftyou can give anybody. So when
you're present in singing there,you can connect with your
emotion when you're present incomedy, you're much more attuned
to the room. So that edge theythink they have isn't really an
edge. It's you've seen Hamilton?
Have you seen Hamilton? Yes. Ionly saw it on Disney. And I was
so happy to do that during thepandemic. And there's a I got
really enamored with Lin ManuelMiranda, I'm like, How does this
(30:37):
brain work? How does a humanbeing think of those things? And
I started researching him. And Ifound this documentary that was
made here in the gut and thatguy who directed it, and a bunch
of the people that starred inthat were part of something
called I think it's calledfreestyle love machine. And they
would do these performances werelike, people would popcorn and
they start rapping aboutpopcorn. And it was all to hone
(30:57):
that edge. And there was one guywho is a well known comedian
now, who was supposed to beHamilton in the show. Wait,
delimiting? Well, Miranda, wouldhe play Hamilton? Or was Aaron
Burr, he was supposed to beAaron burn and burn. Okay. It
was supposed to be Aaron Burr inthe show. But he was an
alcoholic, and they were tryingto practice and he was more
(31:19):
interested in partying and theyjust had to leave them behind.
And he talks about it in thisdocumentary called freestyle
love machine. And it's soheartbreaking. But at the same
time, it's what got him sober.
And that's why today he's asuccessful comic. So you know,
people think that they're gonnalose their edge, but it's all a
load of QA.
Michael Kithcart (31:38):
Okay, I gotta find that documentary. That
sounds,
Jen Coken (31:41):
it is amazing music.
Yeah, love it.
Michael Kithcart (31:44):
Okay, before you leave us, Jen, do you have a
few tips that for people that sothey could even work by
themselves start flipping thatnarrative.
Jen Coken (31:53):
So I don't like tips.
However, I just recently did ablog post, introducing what I
call the power code, which is away of, of breaking things up.
And I'm doing some social mediaposts about it now. And power is
an acronym that stands forpursue the facts Own Your story
is exactly what we were talkingabout earlier. Witness your
thoughts. That's that being thatimpartial witness and just
(32:17):
noticing them going by E isempower your choice. Because
see, when we pursue the facts,we separate fact from fiction.
And we can begin to practice nonreactivity and notice the
thoughts going by were present.
When we're present, we have theability to choose how we're
going to respond to a situationthat's what I call response
(32:39):
ability, your ability torespond. So you want to empower
your choice, and are is forreflection, rinse and repeat,
keep reflecting this is never aone and done. This is a lifetime
of discernment, a lifetime ofnoticing the stories, you're
making up a lifetime of choosingto empower yourself of choosing
(32:59):
how you're going to show up as ahappy, carefree, driven,
determined direct, human. Butit's all about choice at the end
of the day, because when we'represent, we have the power of
choice. That is why I don't knowabout you and your practice that
how often are you remindingpeople that they actually have a
lot more choice than they thinkthey do all the time? All this
(33:21):
but you know, it'd be in foryou. And me too, when we're in
the thick of it doesn't feelthat way does it? We're like, I
felt that way. Just literally amonth ago. I said, I said to my
team, I'm like I can't do ourquarterly meeting. I need to
just talk with my coach becauseI'm afraid I'll get my neck on
you right now. I want to get ona plane to Bermuda go over the
triangle and disappear. BecauseI heard that's the thing. I was
(33:44):
just in the thick of things. Sowe all go through it. It's
having the coaches around us togo to my coach said You're
taking too much information fromother people. You know what
works best for you tap in weneed those. No, right.
Michael Kithcart (33:59):
That's a good reminder. Yeah, yep. I love it.
Jen, what are you a champion of?
Jen Coken (34:06):
I am a champion of a world of people at home with
themselves. That's really all Iwant is people to feel at home
to feel their uniqueness, theirmagic and be expressed in the
world.
Michael Kithcart (34:20):
That's beautiful. You give a lot of
ways that you know resources.
We'll put those in the shownotes. But tell us how we can
follow you as well.
Jen Coken (34:30):
Yeah, a couple of ways to go to my website,
Jencoken.com. There will be apop up for you to get on my
email list. I send out nuggetsof wisdom a couple times a week
on there. You can also go toquiz Gen kochen quiz.com. And
then I also have a Facebookgroup make impostor syndrome
your superpower I don't do a lotof necessarily a lot of spot
(34:53):
coaching in there but I go liveonce a week to drop some truth
bombs in there too. So you canalways get with me there and
then you know LinkedIn means theInstagrams, those things, the
socials, you're everywhere. I'mlike savoir faire and impostor
syndrome. I'm everywhere but ina good way.
Michael Kithcart (35:12):
Jen, thank you so much for being a guest on the
podcast. I really enjoyed thisconversation and learned a lot.
Jen Coken (35:17):
Thank you for having me. I really appreciate it.
Michael Kithcart (35:22):
Hey, before you go, did that impostor
syndrome episode resonate withyou? Well, according to
statistics, it probably did,right. But beyond that, wouldn't
it be great to have ongoingsupport to help you overcome
self doubt while also learningtechniques to improve your
leadership impact? I thought sotoo, which is why I'm getting
(35:44):
ready to kick off winning yourway for senior leaders live and
in person right in Minneapolis.
Now winning your way for seniorleaders is for women who are in
mid to upper level management,have been leading teams for
years and are either not gettingany professional development, or
what's being offered doesn'treally match the level of leader
that they want to be. So Icreated winning a way for senior
(36:07):
leaders to provide a leadershipdevelopment experience that is
just for you. If you are awoman, in senior leadership in
the Twin Cities, it is nothinglike what you have gone before
gone through before. It isleadership transformation from
the inside out. It's monthly inperson peer group. It provides a
year long discovery of learning,elevating leadership
(36:32):
effectiveness and designing whatsuccess looks like for you so
that you're winning your way inyour whole life, with your whole
self. It's leadership, it'swellbeing, it's business, it's
mindset. It's community. It'sconnection. Oh my gosh, I'm just
(36:54):
so excited about this. And we'rekicking off soon, like may 11.
It's limited to 12 seniorleaders who are committed to
reaching a new level of growthfor themselves and for others.
This is not a networking group.
This is full contact, apply whatyou're learning along the way,
(37:14):
type of transformation. So go toMichael W kithcart.com. For more
details, and I look forward totalking to you soon.
Hello, I'm Michael W Kithcart, high
performance leadership coach andthe creator of the winning your
way framework. Welcome to thechampions of risk podcast, where
I feature business and thoughtleaders who share stories of
triumphs, tough calls and bestpractices. So you're better
equipped to navigate ongoinguncertainty, take inspired
action and define what it meansto be winning your way in
(00:23):
business and in life. Have youever felt like a fraud, that
you're just waiting for peopleto discover that you don't know
what you're doing? Or whatyou're talking about? Or maybe
that you're not even as good asyou? They think that you were?
Even when you know, it's not thetruth? Do you still sometimes
think it? Statisticallyspeaking, nearly everyone has
(00:46):
thought along those lines, atleast some time, both men and
women, it can affect anyone, butit's more likely to affect high
achieving individuals highachieving individuals who happen
to listen to the champions ofthis podcast, they vary each
other. This is why we need tobreak this down. Research has
shown that 75% of womenexecutives have experienced what
(01:11):
we're talking about here, whichis imposter syndrome. So what is
it? And what if impostorsyndrome was actually your
superpower, my guest today, JenCoken is going to break it all
down for us, recognized by ABC,MSNBC and TEDx. Jen is a
comedian, coach, speaker andimpostor syndrome expert. She
(01:35):
transforms women executives andfounders from being stuck and
fearful of making the wrongdecision to owning their
expertise, having confidence inthe direction they're headed,
and the courage to be with theiruncertainty. Fortune 500 CEOs
and seven figure founders trustJen to shake things up with no
apologies, no Limits at all.
Did I mention, she's a comedian?
(01:57):
Jen, welcome to the podcast.
Jen Coken (01:59):
Thank you so much for having me here. Michael. It's a
pleasure to be here.
Michael Kithcart (02:02):
Oh, I feel like this is going to be a
personal coaching session.
Jen Coken (02:07):
It could be nothing lines up that way. That's okay.
As long as you're okay. I'mokay. You're okay.
Michael Kithcart (02:13):
And hopefully this is all right. This is all
in the spirit of helping otherswho are going to be listening to
this podcast episode. So Jen,you are a comedian, and you're
an impostor syndrome expert. Sowhich caused which?
Jen Coken (02:30):
Well, neither cause the other I've been a comedian
since Oh, my gosh, 2005. So whenI lived out in Denver, I used to
like, you know, made made it mybusiness for about 10 years,
like performing every week,performing every week. Then I
got married, and my ex hadlittle, little kids. And so
going on stage at midnight, orone o'clock in the morning does
(02:50):
not do well for getting a littlekids up dressed, getting
breakfast in them, getting themin the car, getting them to
school, you know, so I hopefullywasn't giving them coffee while
I was trying to drive the car.
So, you know, comedy, for me hasalways been a part and parcel of
who I am the way that I coachpeople when I'm speaking. You
know, comedy is this momentwhere as a comedian is telling a
(03:13):
story or relaying a story aboutthemselves, there's this moment
of tension, and then they make alittle joke for at their own
expense. And people are able tolaugh because that moment of
tension, they're seeingthemselves in the comedian like,
Oh, my God. Yeah, I think thatway, too. I always integrate
that with my coaching. Becausesome research has shown that any
new behavior takes somethinglike 600 repetitions to stick
(03:35):
some research has shown when youadd play, it gets reduced to 12.
So I love Wow, yeah, right. 600To 12 to 12. So I love adding
humor and playfulness. Now,what's interesting for me is, I
didn't even know impostersyndrome existed or even think
(03:57):
about it till about 2018 2018,something like that. When I had
a really, really tough year, Iwas coaching for a big fortune
100 company that had a toxicworkplace culture. And I was not
able to stay grounded in who Iwas as a coach, because I've
(04:17):
been a coach 25 years. So Iwasn't able to navigate that and
found myself in retrospect,sucked into that toxic workplace
culture. And it wasn't until Irealized what was happening
through one of my coaches that Idistinguished where impostor
syndrome showed up for me andhere's where the comedy and the
imposter syndrome really hookedtogether. Everybody has a unique
(04:40):
version of impostor syndrome. Isay that and why say it can be
your superpower. So what I foundover the years working with
women and coaching hundreds ofwomen and some dudes, but mostly
women, because that's my passionbecause of what I went through
and we always coach, rightpeople that were that the who we
were previously kind of thingWhat I find is that something
(05:01):
there's some incident andoriginating incident that
happened somewhere between zeroand 12 1314. That becomes this
defining moment. For me it waswhen I was six. So I had a crush
on Keith Birkby. He was supercute wore glasses just like me.
And so did my friend, MichelleCook, administer. And we decided
at six how we should figure outwho he liked, was by chasing
(05:23):
around the schoolyard veryprecocious six year old chasing
her on the schoolyard in thesnow in Michigan and pushing him
in the snow and then seeing whohe would kiss. So we did that.
And he kissed Michelle and helooked at me and said Eww!
heartbroken. Six years old, wasthe first time your heart was
broken. I was six it was goodburpee on the playground. And so
(05:44):
and and all my friends, youknow, all the other kids were
watching and laughed, hugeembarrassment. And the brain
doesn't like negative emotions.
The brain is constantly tryingto figure out how do I save you?
How do I make sure you don't geteaten by a dinosaur or
embarrassed any of thosenegative emotions. And so who I
(06:05):
became to make up for it, mystrategy was be the funny
sidekick. And I became the classclown. And by the way, my whole
career, while it was coaching, Iwas also in politics, and it was
all about push, I got otherpeople elected. I pushed other
people's agendas. So when I wentinto business for myself six
years ago, that's when thiswhole thing reared its ugly
(06:25):
head. And so when I was able tounlock that I was able to
separate what actually happened,which is Keith said ewww! and
people laughed. Yeah.
Michael Kithcart (06:37):
So basically, that could probably be a mantra
for a lot of us, right? Keith,who pretty much sums it up. in
anybody else's experience. Theymight change. But, exactly,
Jen Coken (06:56):
And that and that's what I say to people. Look, I
was talking with a client acouple of weeks ago, when she
was really upset. She wasn't aclient yet in the thick of
things. And she said, I justfeel so unworthy. I just feel
like I don't deserve my success.
And I and she goes in this isn'tbeen going on very long. It's
recent. I said, Really? When didit start? She took a pause and
she said, oh my god atChristmas, my sister reached out
and said, What do you want ourbudget to be for Christmas
(07:17):
gifts? I said $100. She said,Oh, that sounds like a lot in
that moment. She took that tomean her sister didn't think
well of her. She just was drivento be the best but never really
satisfied and didn't deservesuccess. And all these things
that she made up and all hersister said was, that seems like
(07:38):
a lot for you. I said, What ifshe that was her way of saying I
love you. So that's key, we makeup stuff. Yeah, we make up
stories. We want to learn how toseparate fact from fiction.
Michael Kithcart (07:49):
Yes. You mentioned that you really kind
of discovered impostor syndromeand what it was because of this
toxic work environment you'recoaching in but the years kind
of surprised me, right? Like2018, 2019, because it just
feels like now, impostersyndrome just gets brought up
(08:11):
all the time. So what is it?
What does it really?
Jen Coken (08:17):
Yeah, well, what is impostor syndrome? Why is it
keep getting brought up?
Michael Kithcart (08:20):
What What is it first? All right.
Jen Coken (08:22):
So the definition it was it was it was discovered
distinguished by two researchersback in the 70s, who said that
it was an experience of feelinglike a fraud by highly
successful people. Suzanne Imes,Pauline Clance. I'm sorry, I'm,
as I always get her last namewrong. And at that time, they
thought women had it more thanmen because men had more
(08:43):
testosterone. And that was aconfidence hormone. But as you
said, In the beginning, when wewere introduced in this topic,
70 75% of all, everyone who's ina leadership position, a high
achiever, really anyone has hadthe experience of feeling like a
fraud or an impostor at somepoint in time. I think it's just
become, it unfortunately, hasbecome a way of labeling people,
(09:06):
which I don't agree with. Andpeople want to shy away because
it's negative. I don't seeimpostor syndrome is negative
look, earlier today. I wasworking on some messaging last
week with my team, and we hadthis huge epiphany. And one of
my team members wrote this blog,and I'm crying and bawling.
Because finally, I feel like,you know, for six years, I've
(09:26):
had my own company, and we'vebeen dancing around the message,
and what's the right thing? AndI'm like, Oh, my God, this is
it. I said, but can I be thisbraggadocious? And like, content
writer goes, well, I don't know.
Jen Coken would say if you don'texperience imposter syndrome, at
some point in time, you're notplaying a big enough game, but
it was like, Don't you use mycoaching on me. Stop that!
(09:49):
But that's the thing is thatbecause the brain works the way
it does, you know, 50 to 60,000thoughts a day. 80 to 85% are
negative 90 to 95 percentrepetitive. It's constantly
determining threats. So when westretch ourselves when we are
the only one in the room whereit happens, because so few women
are in these high levelleadership positions, so few
(10:11):
women have six figure companies,they don't, you know, only like
12% of women owned businessesmake it to six figures in 3% to
seven figures. There's very fewpeople that look like us and
women of color as a whole, evenbigger deal, right? Because
there's even fewer at thatpoint. We want to try to fit in,
(10:32):
we think nobody can understandus. We feel that fear, which
isn't necessarily real at allthat fear. It's the fear of, you
know, well, what happens if Iget too successful? What if I
sabotage myself? None of thatfear is real. And I think it's
so big right now, because peoplehave like glommed on to it as
this label as a negative thing.
And I'm here to turn that suckeron its head. Yep, exactly.
Michael Kithcart (10:57):
Okay. You mentioned that people like
women, especially like we don'tsee ourselves in a lot of the
roles, we tend to be the onlyone in the room, the higher we
go up into leadership roles andeverything. What about other
like societal, systemic issuesare contributing to the actual
(11:18):
condition of imposter syndrome?
Jen Coken (11:21):
It's the patriarchy baby. You know, I mean, it in
many, many ways you think about,we look at epigenetics, and how
we are born into a patriarchalsociety in our DNA are the cells
and the memories of all thosewomen who came before us that
were treated as property, right,your Hope Chest that you were
(11:41):
gave to your mate when yourfather married you, we carry
that stuff with us in our DNA.
And the way business has beenstructured was traditionally
founded by white men. So thereare certain structural pieces
that add to that I think more asmore and more women get into
positions of leadership, as moreand more black and brown people
(12:04):
get into positions ofleadership, you're seeing a
higher emphasis on community,and interdependence, and being
vulnerable and having that beokay. Because for a long time,
you weren't allowed to bevulnerable work. I want women to
show up with all all themselves.
All yours, be yourself. Becausethere's only one you and we need
(12:26):
that leadership. From women atthe top. Absolutely. Yeah.
Michael Kithcart (12:32):
What happens when the feedback that you get
as a female executive is like,Yes, I'm being my true authentic
self, and then it comes off asthat's too much. You're intense,
you're intimidating, you areoverbearing, you know, just like
(12:53):
all these words that have shownup on performance reviews for
you. So sometimes you right, sosometimes it feels like it's a
little bit dangerous to have mytrue authentic self show up. And
so what are you gonna say aboutthat?
Jen Coken (13:12):
Find a new job.
That's like my show.
Michael Kithcart (13:16):
That is the right environment for you.
Jen Coken (13:18):
It's not No, no, it is not. Look, I was told I was
too much. I was extra, get overit. And what people say about
you is none of your business.
what others are saying about youis it's their stuff, not yours.
What other people say about you,as absolutely none of your
business, what you say about youmake that your business, be able
(13:39):
to go to sleep at night, be ableto look in the mirror that comes
up on our performance review,and has no place in my book to
be on a performance review. Inmy opinion, especially if it's
written down. That's one thingbut to say to somebody, huh? I'm
too much. I'm extra. I'm toodirect. How would you like me to
be? You'll get your answer. Andthen you'll know when to start
(14:03):
looking. Thank you for giving methat gift of sharing with me how
you would like me to be becausethat's not me. And I'm going to
be unique to myself.
Michael Kithcart (14:13):
When you're working with people on impostor
syndrome, I'm curious, like, howoften as you're unraveling it,
is there a discovery that inthis thought process of like
you're not good enough andthings like that, that it really
stems from? You're not showingyour true self like you're
(14:33):
holding back? Where's thattension? Within that, that
syndrome? Well, is it not there?
Jen Coken (14:43):
So it's you it's distinct for me because the work
that I do with my clients is Itake them on an embodied
meditation to get back to themoment where impostor syndrome,
what I call their originatingincident. So I had to When I do
a master class or a workshopfour times a year with six women
(15:05):
at the table, okay? And I'mcurrently on between session two
and three, it's only threesessions. But it is a life
altering for people. And I'mworking with this woman. And
what we got to know she wasabout eight or nine she was at
and going through themeditation, I tell people just
go with a memory that you have,don't try to make it mean
anything, don't try to searchfor answers, because that's your
mind your ego trying to searchfor that. And that's also your
(15:27):
subconscious, we actually wantto get to the level of your
superconscious, that divineinspiration where you're
connected to your intuition and,and who you truly are. So she
gets this memory of being at heraunt's house, and her little
cousin was giving away all thesename brand clothes, and they
didn't have a lot of money. Soeverybody's picking through it.
And she picks up a pair of whitejeans. And her aunt says, Oh,
(15:48):
honey, those will never fit you.
You're too big. So she makes ita point to go into the bedroom.
And she said I did everything Idid the jeans wiggle, I took a
hanger and put it in the thinglike we used to do when there
was no given our jeans back inthe 70s and tried to get it up
and she couldn't get on, getthem on. And I said well, how
did that make you feel? She saidI was embarrassed. They said
yes. And there's a way you'rethe brain doesn't want you to
(16:10):
feel embarrassed. The braindoesn't want to experience those
negative emotions, the brainsmart, it's going to figure out
how to solve the problem. So whodid you become? So you never had
to deal with embarrassment?
Again, she goes, I got reallydetermined and driven I was
going to show them. I saidexactly how does that work,
super successful businesswoman.
But let me tell you something,she's never satisfied with her
(16:31):
results. Because it doesn't comefrom a place of choice and a
place of power. And what wasreally beautiful is last week,
she sent us a picture of her anda pair of white jeans, because
for 40 years, she wouldn't puton white jeans. And she went out
and got a pair and she lookedgorgeous. And that's what she
was wearing. And now she has theopportunity and possibility of
being successful and feelingthat instead of trying to be as
(16:53):
successful on top of beingdetermined to avoid feeling
embarrassed. So it's gettingback to that acorn, that nugget
of truth and of gold. And as faras I can tell, most people have
three or five of these littlenuggets that drive our whole
lives then you have an upsetnine year old drive in your life
like you want that that personcan't even reach the pedals. You
(17:14):
don't want that person behindthe wheel of the car.
Michael Kithcart (17:18):
Yes, such a great thing. That story was just
explained a lot. Yeah, it justdoes. Are there different types
of imposters?
Jen Coken (17:30):
Yes, and there are many books that have been
written on it. And what I see isgenerally it's people who are
people pleasers. Now, this issomething that I recently
discovered, which is you know,fight flight or freeze. There's
also something called fawn,which I'm like, Oh my God,
that's me where you fawn overpeople to get them to like you.
(17:52):
Uh huh. And then there's thenthere's possum, where you just
want to play that and get peopleto leave you alone.
Michael Kithcart (17:57):
Oh, great. So you're fun. I'm probably possum.
Jen Coken (18:01):
Yeah, I'm I'm definitely a foreigner. And so
it's people who you know, aretrying to get it right. They
gotta get everything. These arethe people pleasers, the
perfectionist, theprocrastinators, I actually have
a quiz that's based on Dr.
Valerie Young's book, where shelooks at competency types ways
that people have becomecompetent. And she names five
types, the perfectionist, thenatural genius, everything comes
(18:23):
really easy. I'm Superman orwoman, people that are defined
by their work, the soloist, theperson who's got to go alone,
and not ask for help. And thenthe expert, the one who's
consistently going aftercredentials and more knowledge
before they can feel like theyare an expert. I kind of tweaked
those because I found thateverybody is a little bit unique
in their expression of it. Soyou can try to fit into those.
(18:45):
Or you can say, you know, mine'sunique. Let me do this embodied
meditation and figure out, butthe quiz will give you a lot of
insights for yourself. Andthat's Gen koken quiz.com, which
I'm sure you can put in theshow. You'll put that in. And
then what do they call it? Thenotes on your potshots? Yeah,
the show notes, the show notes?
(19:06):
Yes. No.
Michael Kithcart (19:07):
Yes. technical term. Yes. Right. Okay, that's
great. I hope everybody thatlistens, takes it and then posts
what they are. Mean. That's oneway to just like, let's get on
with this. What are some of thecommon triggers that you most
often hear from women that kindof put them interesting?
Jen Coken (19:31):
Yeah, it's either in their relationship to authority.
So someone you know, as a youngkid, like everybody is a
position of authority, you know,your teachers, your parents,
etc. So it's something like myfriend's aunt who said, Oh,
honey, those will never fit you.
Well, I'll show you. I'm gonnado everything I can to get into
him and you know, so it's youryour relationship to authority
(19:52):
and how it agency and at the ageof five, six and seven or eight
or nine, whatever it is, you'reeveryone else was more thorough.
At the New Deal, you're supposedto listen to them. So case in
point, I had a client early onwho brought a C home on a test.
And her dad was kind of a gruffguy. And like what's up with the
C and Dad, it's average, give me1500 words on mediocre and bam,
she was embarrassed. She feltlike she had to please her dad.
(20:17):
So she wrote the essay. But shehad to get it right, because she
never wanted to be embarrassedagain, which propelled her to
great heights. However, it showsup in her relationship to male
authority figures, compared toanother client who was in a
class with in the fourth grade,and she was new to the school
and everyone was picking asubject to speak about. And she
(20:39):
was a little shy, so she hadn'traised her hand yet got toward
the end, there was two words,she raises her hand and says,
I'll take baths, and everyone inthe class laughed, and some kids
said, That's bass. Now, I saidto her, did you give the speech?
Yeah, I got an A on it. Did youask your teacher for help?
Absolutely. So her trigger withimpostor syndrome is not about
(20:59):
her relationship to authority.
It's her relationship to peers,and not fitting in and not
belonging. So there's differentand this is part of the work I
do in the in the cohorts that Ithat I teach the three cohort,
once we get to that nugget ofgold, you know, the truth will
set you free, but we'll make youmad. First, once we get to that
(21:20):
nugget of gold, then you spendtime noticing what the triggers
are, what are the situations youare in that it comes up? So you
can start to get good atcatching it and being a witness
to those thoughts and practicenon reactivation being an
impartial witness to thosethoughts rather than being
reactivated? Which you're noteven being reactivated?
Michael Kithcart (21:42):
Once you have that awareness, then you can do
something about it and sayexactly, I'm gonna go back just
a little bit to this. You know,now all of a sudden, imposter
syndrome is everywhere. Eventhough the it was coined, like
back in the 70s. So sometimes,I'm in these situations in
(22:04):
coaching sessions to where womenin particular will rattle off.
They have impostor syndrome,along with everything else. You
know, I'm a perfectionist, andI'm a workaholic. And I have a
fear of failing. And I this andI'm that, right, like, all in,
they all get rolled up intothis. Here's all the things that
are wrong with me. Now, how dowe fix it? And it's just kind of
(22:29):
it's like, I'm curious about it,right? I'm like, What, whoa,
whoa, whoa, whoa, like, wheredid all this come from? Like,
why are you all of these things?
When I, we, we've been talkingabout this. And as we've been
going along, it feels likethere's actually a connection to
all of them. It's not likethey're isolated things. But you
mentioned like impostersyndrome. There's this there
(22:49):
could be a sign of perfectionismout of it, or that's, but it's
almost like it's a result of,rather than a cause of, I don't
know, I'm just playing this alittle. Yeah.
Jen Coken (23:03):
I mean, I think we are constantly as humans seeking
out answers and more informationis never going to make a
difference. I don't care if yousaid, you know, I know I have
listened to equals MC squared.
No, it's not because you'restill dealing at the level of
learning. And as smart as yourclients are, if that actually
was the answer, they'd be free,they wouldn't need you. That's
why people hire coaches, becausewe can hear things in the
(23:25):
unheard we can hear what isn'tbeing said. So all this like
rambling up. No, that's you'reactually no, it's none of that.
Now, what's more interesting tome is that you came to all these
conclusions because conclusionsnever make a difference. It's
being able to be in wonder, andcuriosity and being able to, you
know, be with uncertainty. Ialways think of Brian or Maria
(23:47):
railcar, and his quote oflearning to love the questions,
like locked rooms that you haveyet to have the key to, because
you're really not ready to knowthe answers. But when they you
well, as long as you learn tolove the questions, because
that's the brilliance of thehuman mind is we have our best
aha moments when we're workingthe way scientists do, right?
(24:08):
When we bump up against thingsand problems and solutions and
awesome push, we see some wehadn't seen before that we never
considered so your clients mayhave all the answers, but none
of that are leading them to thepot of gold. That's why they
need you. That's why they needme.
Michael Kithcart (24:22):
Yes. Wow.
That's a beautiful way of sayingit. A lot of times we'll get
into the point of like, so howis that working for you? Like
what's working what's notbecause you're, you're getting
something out of it, otherwise,you wouldn't keep doing it.
Right. Right. And, and that thenwill usually open a few doors,
as you say, Yep. On the otherend, some may want to resist
(24:44):
that impostor syndrome label. Sohow do you help both like the
self describers like I justmeant, oh, and also the avoiders
like, oh, No, that's not me.
Well,
Jen Coken (25:01):
I mean, look, we're our own worst enemy. And we're
also the ones who knowourselves. Well, you know,
again, I think what people areshying away from is being
labeled. So I've had plenty ofpeople that have gotten on into
I used to do just anintroductory workshop to
impostor syndrome. They're like,wait a minute, I micromanage
(25:22):
Wait a minute, I don't likedelegating. Wait a minute, I
don't like asking for help.
You're telling me those arehallmarks of imposter syndrome.
Yeah, all those are pieces ofimpostor syndrome. So you could
say, I suppose that everything'spart of impostor syndrome, of
feeling like a fraud, or feelinglike you're not enough, I
suppose, you know, are youavoiding because it doesn't
(25:42):
resonate with you? Are youavoiding because you don't like
being labeled? Are you avoidingbecause you're unwilling to look
at your own stuff, we arealways, you know, authenticity
and author come from the sameroot word, we are the author of
our journey, which means thatthe good, the bad and the ugly,
the brain wants to protect thething. It's a brain of which is
(26:03):
you so it doesn't want to havethose negative thoughts. So my
guess is that's why people areavoiding it. They're avoiding
it. Good for you keep avoidingit. Let me know how that goes.
Right.
Michael Kithcart (26:15):
Okay. You talk about how you can actually use
imposter syndrome as yoursuperpower. Yep. So how does
Jen Coken (26:23):
Well, it's actually the the work where people what I
that work?
was describing earlier about thewoman in the white jeans, right,
where she became determined, andthat's really bankrupt. But at
the same time, her determinationhas, she's already had one, two
successful companies, and she'sworking on her third. So being
(26:43):
determined isn't bad. It'sgotten her to great heights, it
just hasn't been fulfilling. SoI help people see that the way
they've tried to make up for,you know, or the way the brain
has attempted to strategize soit doesn't feel embarrassed or
thwarted or disappointed, or allthose things. Those ways of
(27:03):
being and acting are absolutelytheir strategies for success.
They're just not fulfilling. Sonow, can she choose to be
determined? Because it's achoice? Rather than as the
result of something or as the atthe effect of something?
Michael Kithcart (27:20):
Because framing it differently can
change the outcome.
Jen Coken (27:23):
Yes. And that and that. Yeah, absolutely. And
that's the new viewpoint, right?
That's the new viewpoint thatsomebody can have as we're
reframing the conversation.
However, it isn't reframing. Idon't know, I don't know how to
say this. Like, on one hand, youcould say it's reframing. But
it's not like we're taking thisbook and turning the cover over
(27:45):
taking a book and you're lookingat the front cover, and I'm
reframing it by looking at theback cover. No, no, we're
tossing out the book. And nowit's a lipstick because we're
getting to the root ofsomething. And we're
disappearing, that thing we'rechiseling away at. It's like
Michelangelo when he was asked,How did you discover David? And
he said, David was in the marblethe whole time, I just had to
carve away everything thatwasn't him, the angel was in the
marble all along. So as theangel in the marble for each of
(28:08):
us, it's the ability to be ableto chisel away and let go of
that which doesn't serve, whichis the work that I do with my
clients. So it's reframing. Yes,but I don't want to use that.
It's a paradigm shift. You know,it's a new paradigm. So reframe
to me means you still have theframe. You're just switching up
your viewpoint.
Michael Kithcart (28:28):
Yeah, changing the angle. And this is more of
an overhaul. Yep, got it. And Ilove that. It's like you're
letting some some partsdisintegrate and just having
something new form out of it.
Even though there's still somesome like familiarity around it.
Jen Coken (28:44):
Yeah. And then that's that familiarity, I think
sometimes is what people whypeople want to avoid it. I have
a dear friend who I love and shenever wants to do any work on
herself because she's afraid atthe end of the day, she's gonna
find out something horrible likeyou're amazing. Like How could
you even okay, I get it but thisthat's her particular brand of
crazy we all have our own brandof crazy you know what I mean?
We all I feel like I got mybrand you got your brand that's
(29:08):
her brand new crazy. I thinkthat avoidance like there's
always a way through we justhave to be willing to go.
Michael Kithcart (29:15):
Right sometimes that fear is that
you'll lose your edge because ithas provided so much success for
you. Right that driving force itit has so if I let that go if I
you know shift around it. Well,I still have success and so
well. I'll use like your your,your comedian, industry, right
(29:39):
community, sometimes we'll havesubstance abuse and then it's
like, okay, if I if Iacknowledged that I'm an
alcoholic, and I'm no longerdrinking, will I still be funny?
Jen Coken (29:48):
Will I still be funny? And you know, it's so
interesting. I'm been takingvoice lessons for the last six
months, which has been reallyfun. And I've always I've sung
here and there, but I can not Ithad even one drink before I sing
because it changes your vocalcords. Now, you know, people
like Oh, I'm gonna take a quickshot to lose myself before I go
up on stage. I cannot do any ofthat. Because I'm not present.
(30:13):
And presence is the biggest giftyou can give anybody. So when
you're present in singing there,you can connect with your
emotion when you're present incomedy, you're much more attuned
to the room. So that edge theythink they have isn't really an
edge. It's you've seen Hamilton?
Have you seen Hamilton? Yes. Ionly saw it on Disney. And I was
so happy to do that during thepandemic. And there's a I got
really enamored with Lin ManuelMiranda, I'm like, How does this
(30:37):
brain work? How does a humanbeing think of those things? And
I started researching him. And Ifound this documentary that was
made here in the gut and thatguy who directed it, and a bunch
of the people that starred inthat were part of something
called I think it's calledfreestyle love machine. And they
would do these performances werelike, people would popcorn and
they start rapping aboutpopcorn. And it was all to hone
(30:57):
that edge. And there was one guywho is a well known comedian
now, who was supposed to beHamilton in the show. Wait,
delimiting? Well, Miranda, wouldhe play Hamilton? Or was Aaron
Burr, he was supposed to beAaron burn and burn. Okay. It
was supposed to be Aaron Burr inthe show. But he was an
alcoholic, and they were tryingto practice and he was more
(31:19):
interested in partying and theyjust had to leave them behind.
And he talks about it in thisdocumentary called freestyle
love machine. And it's soheartbreaking. But at the same
time, it's what got him sober.
And that's why today he's asuccessful comic. So you know,
people think that they're gonnalose their edge, but it's all a
load of QA.
Michael Kithcart (31:38):
Okay, I gotta find that documentary. That
sounds,
Jen Coken (31:41):
it is amazing music.
Yeah, love it.
Michael Kithcart (31:44):
Okay, before you leave us, Jen, do you have a
few tips that for people that sothey could even work by
themselves start flipping thatnarrative.
Jen Coken (31:53):
So I don't like tips.
However, I just recently did ablog post, introducing what I
call the power code, which is away of, of breaking things up.
And I'm doing some social mediaposts about it now. And power is
an acronym that stands forpursue the facts Own Your story
is exactly what we were talkingabout earlier. Witness your
thoughts. That's that being thatimpartial witness and just
(32:17):
noticing them going by E isempower your choice. Because
see, when we pursue the facts,we separate fact from fiction.
And we can begin to practice nonreactivity and notice the
thoughts going by were present.
When we're present, we have theability to choose how we're
going to respond to a situationthat's what I call response
(32:39):
ability, your ability torespond. So you want to empower
your choice, and are is forreflection, rinse and repeat,
keep reflecting this is never aone and done. This is a lifetime
of discernment, a lifetime ofnoticing the stories, you're
making up a lifetime of choosingto empower yourself of choosing
(32:59):
how you're going to show up as ahappy, carefree, driven,
determined direct, human. Butit's all about choice at the end
of the day, because when we'represent, we have the power of
choice. That is why I don't knowabout you and your practice that
how often are you remindingpeople that they actually have a
lot more choice than they thinkthey do all the time? All this
(33:21):
but you know, it'd be in foryou. And me too, when we're in
the thick of it doesn't feelthat way does it? We're like, I
felt that way. Just literally amonth ago. I said, I said to my
team, I'm like I can't do ourquarterly meeting. I need to
just talk with my coach becauseI'm afraid I'll get my neck on
you right now. I want to get ona plane to Bermuda go over the
triangle and disappear. BecauseI heard that's the thing. I was
(33:44):
just in the thick of things. Sowe all go through it. It's
having the coaches around us togo to my coach said You're
taking too much information fromother people. You know what
works best for you tap in weneed those. No, right.
Michael Kithcart (33:59):
That's a good reminder. Yeah, yep. I love it.
Jen, what are you a champion of?
Jen Coken (34:06):
I am a champion of a world of people at home with
themselves. That's really all Iwant is people to feel at home
to feel their uniqueness, theirmagic and be expressed in the
world.
Michael Kithcart (34:20):
That's beautiful. You give a lot of
ways that you know resources.
We'll put those in the shownotes. But tell us how we can
follow you as well.
Jen Coken (34:30):
Yeah, a couple of ways to go to my website,
Jencoken.com. There will be apop up for you to get on my
email list. I send out nuggetsof wisdom a couple times a week
on there. You can also go toquiz Gen kochen quiz.com. And
then I also have a Facebookgroup make impostor syndrome
your superpower I don't do a lotof necessarily a lot of spot
(34:53):
coaching in there but I go liveonce a week to drop some truth
bombs in there too. So you canalways get with me there and
then you know LinkedIn means theInstagrams, those things, the
socials, you're everywhere. I'mlike savoir faire and impostor
syndrome. I'm everywhere but ina good way.
Michael Kithcart (35:12):
Jen, thank you so much for being a guest on the
podcast. I really enjoyed thisconversation and learned a lot.
Jen Coken (35:17):
Thank you for having me. I really appreciate it.
Michael Kithcart (35:22):
Hey, before you go, did that impostor
syndrome episode resonate withyou? Well, according to
statistics, it probably did,right. But beyond that, wouldn't
it be great to have ongoingsupport to help you overcome
self doubt while also learningtechniques to improve your
leadership impact? I thought sotoo, which is why I'm getting
(35:44):
ready to kick off winning yourway for senior leaders live and
in person right in Minneapolis.
Now winning your way for seniorleaders is for women who are in
mid to upper level management,have been leading teams for
years and are either not gettingany professional development, or
what's being offered doesn'treally match the level of leader
that they want to be. So Icreated winning a way for senior
(36:07):
leaders to provide a leadershipdevelopment experience that is
just for you. If you are awoman, in senior leadership in
the Twin Cities, it is nothinglike what you have gone before
gone through before. It isleadership transformation from
the inside out. It's monthly inperson peer group. It provides a
year long discovery of learning,elevating leadership
(36:32):
effectiveness and designing whatsuccess looks like for you so
that you're winning your way inyour whole life, with your whole
self. It's leadership, it'swellbeing, it's business, it's
mindset. It's community. It'sconnection. Oh my gosh, I'm just
(36:54):
so excited about this. And we'rekicking off soon, like may 11.
It's limited to 12 seniorleaders who are committed to
reaching a new level of growthfor themselves and for others.
This is not a networking group.
This is full contact, apply whatyou're learning along the way,
(37:14):
type of transformation. So go toMichael W kithcart.com. For more
details, and I look forward totalking to you soon.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
The Breakfast Club
The World's Most Dangerous Morning Show, The Breakfast Club, With DJ Envy, Jess Hilarious, And Charlamagne Tha God!
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.