December 29, 2025 • 33 mins
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What if joy—not drills—was the engine of math learning? We sit down with math leader Rob Bayer to unpack how students become “mathers” when classrooms center belonging, discourse, and sense-making. The conversation moves past slogans and straight into practice: diagnosing root causes behind “kids can’t add,” using manipulatives at every grade to surface thinking, and designing instruction that turns algorithms into outcomes rather than starting points.
We challenge the curriculum pendulum head-on. High-engagement tasks and Building Thinking Classrooms strategies can spark curiosity, but they can’t compensate for a weak core. At the same time, over-scripted teacher guides flatten professional judgment. Rob lays out a middle path: adopt materials that require student thinking, structure productive talk, and honor teacher facilitation—then back it up with real professional learning. Because impact doesn’t come from a book; it comes from teachers who understand learning trajectories and can guide students from concrete to representational to abstract with purpose.
We also zoom out to the system level. From rethinking when fractions and statistics truly make sense to leveraging Desmos as a teaching tool, we explore how standards, tools, and pedagogy can align around deeper understanding. The big takeaway crosses subjects: ask better questions, center reasoning, and measure success by insight, not speed. If students are mathing, they’re mathers—and our job is to build spaces where that identity thrives.
If this conversation sparks ideas for your classroom or district, share it with a colleague, hit follow, and leave a quick review telling us where you’ve found joy in math lately. Your insights help more educators find the show and keep the learning going.
Want to learn more about ChangED? Check out our website at: learn.mciu.org/changed
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
We are trying something new this season for
us.
Yeah.
It's our our spin on theSmartless podcast, where they
bring on a guest that wasn't asplanned and the rest of us don't
know who it is.
And so we're going to see howthis plays out.
You're you're our you're ourfirst victim.
I mean, our first guest, excuseme.
So we'll we'll see how it goes.
(00:21):
Welcome back to Change Ed.
Changed.
Change Ed.
The number one rated educationpodcast everywhere.
Wherever you are listening tothis, that's where it is.
Number one.
I am one of your hosts, AndrewKuhn, education consultant from
Montgomery County IntermediateUnit.
SPEAKER_03 (00:39):
Here with me is Patrice Semichek.
Apparently, Tony, we are nowhosts.
SPEAKER_00 (00:45):
I didn't say both of you.
I just said I'm one of thehosts.
SPEAKER_03 (00:48):
You know why?
Great.
Because I well, I threw a hissyfit and I was like, you know,
you're only invited to thingsbecause you call yourself the
host, not because Oh, because ofother speaking engagements.
SPEAKER_01 (00:59):
Understood.
SPEAKER_03 (01:00):
I was a little salty.
I mean, not really.
SPEAKER_00 (01:04):
My agent told me to call you guys hosts.
SPEAKER_03 (01:07):
Anyway, I am an educational consultant at the
Montgomery County IntermediateUnit.
SPEAKER_01 (01:12):
And everyone's favorite is Tony Maravito, IU21,
SDF, podcaster, esports guru,golfer.
Golfer.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (01:22):
Golf extraordinaire.
What am I doing?
SPEAKER_03 (01:25):
Just make sure, because you're looking at Tony
also.
So like sit in a space where youcan there you go.
SPEAKER_00 (01:30):
Tony's so pretty.
SPEAKER_03 (01:31):
Tony is pretty.
I'm not saying you shouldn'tlook at Tony.
SPEAKER_00 (01:33):
All right.
This first guest is Tony'ssurprise guest.
So Tony, I I know that you're agolf extraordinaire, so I'm
gonna go.
I can do that introduction.
I'm gonna let you tee this up.
Yep.
SPEAKER_03 (01:42):
Oh wow.
The dad jokes.
SPEAKER_01 (01:45):
That already starts.
So I've uh come to know thisgentleman over the last year and
a half or so.
He's been an inspiration in ourIU.
We have nothing but rave reviewsabout this gentleman.
I will let this gentlemanintroduce himself from the
western side of the state,originally from Ohio, I believe.
Mr.
Rob Baer.
SPEAKER_02 (02:02):
Hi, Rob.
SPEAKER_01 (02:03):
It's Bayer, Tony.
Come on.
Mr.
Rave Bayer.
SPEAKER_02 (02:07):
Wow.
Yeah, Tony.
SPEAKER_01 (02:09):
He did have one job.
I was too concerned about whereyou where you descended from.
SPEAKER_00 (02:14):
Rob, where were you really from Ohio?
Where in Ohio are you from?
Oh lord.
SPEAKER_06 (02:17):
Yeah, I'm originally from like southeastern Ohio.
Don't hold that against me.
And it was about an hour east ofColumbus, a town called New
Concord.
It's actually the home of theastronaut John Glenn.
So yeah, fun fact.
I went to John Glenn HighSchool.
So yeah.
Got to meet him and his wifemultiple times when I was in
high school.
And actually, I was in ninthgrade when he became the oldest
(02:40):
man to go into space.
Like I was in ninth grade andthey had a whole like CNN was at
our high school and all thatstuff.
That's awesome.
SPEAKER_00 (02:47):
So you know, not everybody can say they've gone
to John Glenn High School.
So that's that's pretty unique.
So thank you ring on somebodywho could say they went to John
Glenn High School.
That's why I did it.
Rob, I actually Rob, I used tolive in Lancaster, Ohio.
So far, like it's a little bitfarther south from where you're
at.
But it's nice to meet a fellowOhioan.
SPEAKER_03 (03:07):
Tony, did you ever live in Ohio?
I didn't.
SPEAKER_00 (03:09):
I did not.
No.
Well, we always talk aboutFlorida.
So it feels good.
SPEAKER_03 (03:13):
Just because it's a very special place.
Florida's a very special place.
SPEAKER_01 (03:18):
Oh, we do not always so the reason I asked Rob to be
on the podcast was because he'sbeen helping us out in the world
of math.
Yes.
So I fit I felt like it's fitright in with our whole STEM
situation here.
And he works well, I'll let himspeak about all of this, but he
works for Inova Matt.
Amazing career prior to this inin mathematics.
And uh he's kind of changed theway that I look at math.
(03:39):
And definitely now we've had himfor two years in a row because
he keeps being asked for.
So Rob, I'll let you take itfrom there.
Yeah, I don't know how far backyou want me to go, but a good
beginning.
SPEAKER_03 (03:49):
You were born.
Okay.
SPEAKER_06 (03:50):
I uh prior to what I'm doing now, I previously was
a kid.
And so hey, makes sense to it.
That's actually why Tony broughtme on.
No, so so I was a I was a mathteacher, and after my time being
a math teacher, there was aconversation my wife and I had,
and that I basically wanted totry to impact more kids.
(04:11):
So I went into administration.
I ended up at a charter schoolfor about seven months as an
administrator, uh like abuilding level administrator for
a variety of reasons.
It was not the proper spot forme.
So literally day two on the job,I said I needed to leave,
otherwise, this was gonnatotally ruin my whole career and
(04:33):
what I've worked for.
So I left, ended up gettinghired at IU1, and I was a math
curriculum specialist at IU1 forfour and a half years, okay, and
did a lot of work there.
And it spanned pre-COVID throughCOVID.
And then I left IU1 and becamethe executive director for K-12
Math Science and STEM atPittsburgh Public Schools for
the whole city.
(04:53):
And I was there for two and ahalf years.
And then a year ago, I was atNCSM, the National Council of
Supervisors of Mathematics inChicago.
And there's a a vendor friend ofmine that he said, You I know
you guys just adopted a mathcurriculum, but you need to come
see these people.
I entered that was introduced to15 crazy Spaniards that love
math and want to have a goodtime.
SPEAKER_04 (05:13):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_06 (05:13):
That and you know, I'm almost 11 or like 10 or 11
months into my time, and theylove math and want to have a
good time.
Like it's literally and like dowhatever we can to help kids.
So it was kind of a leap offaith getting out of like
Pizzers and getting into a fieldwhere you're not as protected in
terms of like, you know, unionsand stuff like that.
(05:34):
But it's been incrediblyfulfilling.
Like I'm able to travel a littlebit now and a lot of bit and do
a lot of work with educators allacross the state.
So it's kind of my story forthat.
SPEAKER_00 (05:43):
You you know, Rob, I want to lean into you were
saying they want to have fun.
A lot of times math can feellike a chore or feel like a job
and can be a struggle forstudents.
So I'm wondering if you can tellus a little bit about like what
does that look like?
What does it look like to havefun in math?
What is what is that?
SPEAKER_06 (06:00):
Let's uh let's call it joy, right?
Because that's like the buzzwordwhere we're talking about having
joy in math.
And to be completelytransparent, I think I think
what joy, what I thought joy wassix years ago in mathematics, I
was so wrong.
I wanted kids to have to beplaying like games with cards,
dominoes, dice, you know, andyou know, playing games like led
(06:21):
towards fluency and buildtowards fluency.
But I really didn't know what Iwas doing and what like the true
joy was until I started divinginto it.
For me and and for like on theNovomat, what true joy is is
like that aha for kids.
Getting kids to like actuallyfeel like they belong in the
classroom, that they actuallycan do the math.
That one of my good friends,Deborah Perk uh Curtin, or wait,
(06:41):
Deborah Perk Clayton.
unknown (06:44):
Shit.
SPEAKER_06 (06:45):
Deborah Perk Clayton.
Yeah.
I she just got married, so Ihave to remember her married
name.
But Deborah uh Pert Clayton.
She uh she talks about how youknow readers read.
Like if you're reading, you're areader, right?
If you're writing, you're awriter.
So if you're mathing, you're amather.
SPEAKER_03 (07:00):
Oh, we've had her out before.
I love I was like, he's goingthere.
I love that concept.
SPEAKER_06 (07:06):
She just wrote a book, and I literally just
bought it two days ago with herand standing next to me.
I was like, hey, I'm buying yourbook.
So this idea of having kids bemathers and that they belong in
the classroom, that they canactually do math.
And I think the other part of itis defining what success looks
like in math class.
Like success for some kids isjust they contributed an idea
(07:27):
and you accepted that they saidsomething.
And whether it's right or wrongand not shooting it down is like
that's key and pivotal.
And like that's like true joy inclassroom.
Like you're you're joyful whenyou feel like you belong, you're
joyful when you feel like youfeel figure some things out.
That's and when you stay true tolike learning progressions and
like what we call learningtrajectories, if you stay true
(07:48):
to that, like it's gonna buildfoundational knowledge for
students, which then leads tothat aha.
To me, that's that's that joy,that's the the high energy.
And then like if you've beenaround our Nova Map folk,
they're just a fun group, theylove life.
And I've never been a part of,and this is no knock on any
place I've ever worked, but theSpanish are built different,
(08:08):
yeah.
They are and they just and and Imean that in all the enduring
qualities, they are absolutelyamazing humans, and I've never
had a better time.
SPEAKER_03 (08:17):
That's kind of why I'm I'm excited for you and a
little jealous.
But going back to your point oflike the joy in math, because I
work with Andrew a lot, which isa downer.
SPEAKER_01 (08:26):
Joy sucker.
SPEAKER_03 (08:28):
Yeah, when I was like, what are gonna make him a
shirt, joysucker?
I'm like, what is fun?
SPEAKER_00 (08:33):
Can you please explain to me what fun looks
like?
SPEAKER_03 (08:35):
He like makes the opposite of fun.
But that's kind of why I wasalso a math consultant for 10
years at MCIU before I didscience and all the gifted
stuff.
But I fell in love with the ideaof which one doesn't belong
because there's entry points foreverybody, and every kid can
feel successful because itdoesn't even have to be numbers,
it can be shapes or pictures orall kinds of stuff.
(08:56):
And I love the idea of makingsure that all students have
entry points.
Because I remember vividlyteaching in Philadelphia and
thinking, my kids don't evenknow how to add.
They don't understand and theydon't know it with automaticity
or accuracy.
And when we are in undergrad, Iwas taught a lot of like they
need to know their facts, theyhave to know their facts, they
have to know their facts.
Yes, they do need to know theirfacts so they can free up their
(09:18):
working memory.
But at the same time, likethere's tools that we have now
that allow them to access mathdifferently without having to
memorize all these facts anddoing those horrible time tests
and just creating a lot ofanxiety.
SPEAKER_06 (09:29):
So, like you just said something that yeah, I
think Tony's heard me say thisto teachers.
When when we say things like ourour kids don't know how to add,
like they like they strugglewith addition, our kids struggle
with multiplication, they theydon't know their facts.
I think we're painting with abroad brush.
And I think that what we need todo is start asking a deeper
question, much like if you'vebeen a part of like the
(09:50):
data-wise protocol where it'sall about the root cause and
trying to dig deeper, it's like,okay, so what what's the root
cause here?
Because kids not understandinghow to add or not understanding
how to multiply, that's asymptom, but that's not the root
cause.
So, what's the root cause here?
So, like for me, if a kid'sstruggling with addition, are
they struggling with the conceptof like adding on, or are they
(10:13):
struggling with the concept ofmaking 10 or there are doubles,
or maybe the like it goes deeperto like just adding on number
concepts at all?
SPEAKER_03 (10:20):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_06 (10:21):
Not or or do they know what a number is?
Do they look at the number fiveand do they understand that
that's five objects?
Like that because the actualnumbers that we as students or
as kids are like you know,three, two, three, four years
old, and we start exposing themto numbers, we're showing them
these numbers and having themblindly rotely memorize those,
just like we do with letters.
(10:41):
Right.
I was just about to say it's somuch like letters, you don't
even yes, it's uh and forwhatever reason, I guess it
works for letters, but and butwith in math, but it I mean like
it's it's a good foundation, butthen you have to tie it, you
have to tie it to something.
Like you, if you just leave themthere and you don't tie it to
anything in terms of like uhquantity, like having
quantifiers and then alsotalking about like what's more
and what's less, then we'remissing.
(11:03):
So, like if a kid has neverreally developed that, fully
developed that, that we get onto like grade three, yeah, and
like our kids are struggling,like they don't know how to
multiply.
Well, they may not know how toadd either.
So we have to go deeper, like wehave to really go deep into what
the root causes.
So just anybody who's who'slistening, just start
challenging yourselves, like askdeeper questions, and use
manipulatives.
SPEAKER_03 (11:23):
I don't care how old they are.
Like high schoolers should beusing manipulatives to
demonstrate their thinking andrepresentations, yes, yeah.
That's why I loved I loved theidea.
We talked a lot about CRA when Ifirst started, a concrete
representational abstract piece.
Because to your point, like wedon't know what they don't know
without going deeper andfiguring it out.
And if they can't show you withcubes or tally marks or whatever
(11:46):
you're using, then it becomes uheasier to diagnose and to help
them forward faster.
SPEAKER_06 (11:51):
So I I just got back from C N C SM in Atlanta.
Oh, yeah, and the one night,like I took Pam Harris to dinner
and we were talking deeply aboutif anybody who doesn't know Pam
Harris, her podcast is calledMath is Figure Autable.
The uh website is also calledMath is Figure Autable.
And there was like six of us.
It was like her and her twopeople that work for her, and
then like myself with Albert andLauda, who's our uh she's our
(12:15):
like one of our main authors forthe Thinking Math product.
So I had basically two of ourmain authors with Pam and her
two team members, and we satthere and just went deep into
mathematics.
That's awesome.
Talking about like like I'mtalking, it was a it was a two
and a half or two hour and 45minute like dinner quote unquote
dinner.
(12:35):
Yeah, like it was long, and itwas very deep into math and
talking about learningtrajectories and how like we
build the learning or thethinking math product uh for our
pre-K to five core curriculum.
And then because she hadquestions, Pam had questions,
she's heard a lot about us, andshe was like, I need to see
more.
So we dove really deep into itand had a wonderful
conversation.
And everything you're saying,Patrice, is the same, is like
(12:56):
what came out.
Like we talked about likebuilding concepts and making
relationships with numbers andlike seeing patterns because
numbers are patterns, and how dothose build and how they
connect?
And I I don't want to spoilanything, but she said something
that I've never heard anybodysay, so that's actually gonna be
on my podcast.
So I'm not gonna spoil it here.
SPEAKER_05 (13:13):
Wait, no, Rob.
SPEAKER_00 (13:16):
Okay.
I mean, just so we're clear,Rob, this is a world renowned.
I mean, if you wanted to go outto the world, this is a four
listeners.
SPEAKER_06 (13:24):
Yeah, she she had a hot take on CRA.
SPEAKER_02 (13:27):
And I think thumbs up for time in the middle.
SPEAKER_06 (13:30):
Equal.
SPEAKER_02 (13:31):
Rob, really?
SPEAKER_06 (13:34):
Yeah, and come on, you can't do that.
She she said it and I went, I'msorry, what?
And it turned into a very deepconversation.
I said, Can I get you on thepodcast?
And we could talk about this.
And she's like, Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (13:48):
So where do you fall on like the Dan Meyer 3X tasks
situation?
SPEAKER_06 (13:52):
Yeah, they're fine.
SPEAKER_03 (13:53):
I I feel like they become a sensation.
And I think people, especiallywith Peg Smith's book about the
five practices, I think thecombination of the two is a good
place to go.
It's not a great place to live.
And I think sometimes we getstuck in.
I heard about this online.
Dan's super exciting to listento, really fun.
The problems are really fun, butthere's a time and a place, and
(14:16):
I feel like we sometimes let thependulum swing too much and we
do too much of that versus Ithink there needs to be a nice
mix of his stuff plus likepractice, really understand the
concept.
SPEAKER_06 (14:27):
I think free act tasks are beautiful if you have
a really crappy product, likecore curriculum.
Like if you're if your corecurriculum salesman.
Well, no, I listen, I I'll I'vetold Tony many times I suck at
sales.
Like I am I am an educator thatwants to help kids.
SPEAKER_05 (14:46):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_06 (14:46):
And if I talk to somebody and they're like, hey,
it's not for us, I go, allright, see ya.
Like some friends.
Like that's like I'm terrible atsales.
SPEAKER_05 (14:53):
Okay, yeah.
SPEAKER_06 (14:54):
But but it has nothing to do with like this is
not from coming from a Nova Mappiece.
This is come this is literallycoming from like if you have a
crappy core product, and I'm notgonna name names because I'm
pretty sure at this point I canget in trouble.
I used to be able to name names,but I wasn't working for a
competitor.
Yeah, I can't name namesanymore, pretty sure.
SPEAKER_03 (15:10):
But some really good conversations off air.
SPEAKER_06 (15:13):
Oh, for sure.
But but if you have a reallyterrible core curriculum that
you need something to get kidsto think in math class and you
need to get them to haveconversations and and you're
trying to fit a square peg intoa round hole, then you're force
feeding like the buildingthinking classrooms practices,
which I love.
I mean, they he endorses us,Peter endorses us, and we're the
only company that he endorses interms of math.
(15:35):
But you're force feeding a badproduct to like do the same
thing, like on standing verticalnon-permanent services, like
that doesn't make sense.
And the same thing with like,oh, we need to get kids to think
more and make them more quoteunquote real.
And so let's get an empty tankand put water in it and let's
calculate how long this is gonnabe.
Look, 14 years ago, when I firstsaw that video, like it was
(15:57):
freaking groundbreaking for me.
Like, like it changed my my wayof thinking.
SPEAKER_03 (16:01):
Even the way he explained how to do what you
have, like you're saying, atraditional textbook.
How do you pull that apart andmake it a little more yeah?
SPEAKER_06 (16:08):
Yeah, and and so and why do but why do we have to do
that with a traditionaltextbook?
Because they're so bad, like ithas not, and especially at the
high school level, yeah, there'sno engagement, and especially at
the high school level, like namea good high school product.
There isn't, and I don't blamethe the publishers for for lack
of trying, and I don't blameteachers for for staying rooted
in like what they knowcontent-wise.
(16:29):
I kind of blame what high schoolmath really is.
Yes, like I have so manyquestions on like where like
what we are with that.
SPEAKER_03 (16:35):
So anyway, so and you teach the way you were
taught, and they haven't reallybeen given opportunities to
experience but whatopportunities do they have too?
SPEAKER_06 (16:44):
Right, like outside of like Desmos, using Desmos as
a teaching tool, like the notjust like using the calculator
as a calculator because it's onthe test now.
SPEAKER_02 (16:51):
Well, it's so robot.
SPEAKER_06 (16:52):
I'm talking like I'm talking like literally using it
as a teaching tool, like as a asa means for kids.
SPEAKER_03 (16:59):
Do you do you think it's a cart before the horse
kind of thing?
Or are they continuing to makecurriculum because that's the
way that that's what people arebuying?
People are buying a traditionalcurriculum because that's what
they're used to, because that'show like I feel like it's this
weird cycle.
We've got to pull them out andbe like, okay, I need you to
experience this.
And it's really hard with highschool teachers because they
already know all the math.
(17:20):
Like you can't give them a novelconcept most of the time.
Like that's what I struggledwith, especially with high
school teachers.
Well, one, because I am scaredof them.
And two, well, I'm an elementaryteacher.
Like, I know algebra one, andthey're like, Okay, I teach
trigonometry.
And I'm like, I did that in highschool forever ago.
But I think sometimes we, asteachers, get stuck in, well, I
(17:41):
already know how to do all ofthis, and then we then forget
what it means to learn somethingor how it feels to learn
something new.
And so it's hard at the highschool level because they
already know all the concepts toteach them something new.
Right.
Like that's where I that's whereI'm like, but it that that's the
difference.
SPEAKER_06 (17:56):
And the difference really is, and this isn't just
for high school teachers, thisis for all teachers.
Yeah, there's a differencebetween knowing the content and
knowing how to teach thatcontent.
Yeah, like that, those are twovery different things.
SPEAKER_00 (18:10):
So, Rob, if thinking of our listeners, if we are
gonna try and break this cycle,I I know you said you can't name
competitors, but what are somethings, some some tools, hints
of what we should be lookingfor?
Because I think, you know, ifwe're gonna get out of this rut,
we have to know better to dobetter.
So, what are things that we howshould we be analyzing these,
you know, different curricula ormaterials or programs that we're
(18:32):
looking at?
Are there like basic things thatwe're just missing because we're
so deep into the content, wemiss these core pieces that
could that could connect or tipsor hints that you could suggest
for our listeners?
SPEAKER_06 (18:43):
That's a really great question.
And I think it's this.
If you did well, yeah, sorry.
Don't worry, I'll I'llcompliment him more later so
that way you guys are it's likehe's insufferable.
SPEAKER_02 (18:55):
Yeah, thank you.
Never welcome back.
SPEAKER_06 (18:58):
No, I think the nape scores just came out, and we see
that there are massive trends infourth grade and eighth grade
mathematics that's you know kindof trending downward.
We oftentimes we havepoliticians saying that our math
scores are uh not be able tocommit to compete with the rest
of the world.
We look at the state itself andwe trying to fix what's
(19:19):
happening in our classrooms.
So I'm saying all this becauselike whatever we don't we're
doing is clearly not working.
But then what we do we go whenwe talk curriculum, we start
looking at resources that arefamiliar and then don't force us
to change it all.
You start looking at things thatyou know, you look at a book
that I I can say this bookbecause they are they stopped
(19:40):
making it.
Like Go Math is is a book thathas been discontinued.
And when I was at PittsburghPublic Schools, Go Math was what
they had for like six years, oractually they had I think they
got an extension for like sevenyears.
And when the teachers werewanting to get a new curriculum,
and it was time for us to get anew curriculum before I left,
they started to want likewhatever.
The next product was from youknow folks that make Go Math.
(20:03):
And I pushed back and I said,well, if what we're doing is not
working, why would we want justa shinier object that's more of
the same?
And and it's not forcing kids tothink, it's not forcing kids to
talk, it's not allowing theteacher to be a facilitator, a
facilitator of learning andgetting and asking, you know,
good questions.
And then there's other productsthat go the pendulum, and
(20:26):
Patrice, I love you to talk topendulum because I I do I talk
that pendulum as well.
And there's other corecurricular resources that that
pendulum swung so far that it'sso innovative that when you look
at the teacher guides, that it'sit's so over-scaffold for
teachers.
I'm not talking aboutscaffolding for for students,
I'm talking about soover-scaffold for teachers that
it's almost like that we forgotthat teachers went to school for
this.
(20:46):
And like we should trustteachers.
So, really, what we need to dois have we need to be looking
for core curricular resourcesthat make kids think, that get
kids to you know talk, thatallows the teacher to be a
facilitator.
But that's just the vehicle.
The magic happens with teachers.
We need to invest in ourteachers and the PD and the
change.
(21:06):
Like, like that's and then it'sand it's not just investing in
the teachers, like ouradministrators should be in
those conversations.
Like if we're in at the smallerschools, and I'll tell you why
I'm saying that, but in at thesmaller schools, if I'm a
building principal and I I havesomebody coming in to work with
my teachers and changing theirmath practices, like teaching
(21:28):
them deeper content, talkingmath pedagogy, I should be in
the room so I know how to leadthat.
Now, at a at the larger schools,you know, building principals
can do that, but at the largerschools, like when you have you
know curriculum directors,assistant superintendents,
whoever see, you know, five,eight, fourteen, one hundred
schools, whatever it is,depending on the school
district, it's much harder forthem to do that, but they have
(21:49):
to trust that their people belowthem will be able to do that.
So I really think when you'relooking to select a core
curricular resource, like talkto them.
And I think the other piece toois like you got to know who
you're who you're working with.
Like what company are youworking with?
And that was something that wasbig for me when I was going to
select who was coming in topresent to us.
I got it somewhat right at thetime, but knowing what I know
(22:10):
now about like about a Nova Mat,like a Nova Mat would have been
on that list now.
But like they they weren't readyyet.
Yeah.
When I did that, you got to knowwho like how are we gonna
support our teachers?
Because that's who's the that'sthe magic.
Like the core curricularresource is one thing.
And and like Andrew, like it's aresource.
SPEAKER_02 (22:25):
That's what it is.
SPEAKER_06 (22:26):
Yeah, it's a resource, but it but it's a car.
Like like what the what is whatgood is a Lamborghini if you
can't drive it, right?
Right?
Right.
So so like you have to you haveto trust your teachers and you
have to build them up andsupport them at a systematic
level.
Like it has to be, otherwise,uh, it's gonna fail.
So it doesn't matter.
Like you can pick the shiniestobject in the in the store, but
(22:46):
once you hand it to somebody whodoesn't know what to do with it,
yeah, and then you're just notsupporting them, you go, wipe my
hands and go, hey, good luck.
SPEAKER_03 (22:52):
Resource, go go do it.
SPEAKER_06 (22:53):
And then and then in three years, you're evaluating
why it didn't work.
SPEAKER_03 (22:57):
One of the things that we did out here that was
really powerful, and I don'tknow if you guys had that out in
Pittsburgh, was Carnegie Mathhad these week-long institutes
where they would basicallyreteach teachers the math
concepts in a very in-depth,deep way.
I know that for me as anelementary teacher, math was
never really my forte.
(23:17):
I didn't really love it thatmuch.
Mostly because I had Mr.
White and his pocket protectorswho like made me do math in ways
that I didn't really like.
But I also didn't reallyunderstand a whole lot of the
concepts because I was taughtalgorithms.
I was taught to memorize.
I wasn't taught to think aboutthe math and why I was doing
what I was doing.
Especially one of the thingsthat I loved, Carnegie had this
(23:37):
one about early fractionconcepts.
And it was amazing to watchteachers go, oh, like that's why
you invert and multiply.
Like it's crazy to me that weweren't taught why or how the
math worked.
We were just taught to memorize.
SPEAKER_01 (23:53):
Gotta get through the content and get the test.
SPEAKER_03 (23:55):
Yeah.
And I think that's for a lot ofteachers, like that's kind of
where we're stuck.
And we weren't given the abilityto, to your point, have the
support to go in and say, I needto dig a little deeper and
understand when the common corecame out, I don't know, 10, 15
years ago, it feels likeforever.
When that came out, the bigshift was, well, I have to teach
them 18 different ways of doingthe same thing, but they really
(24:16):
just end up at the algorithm,but not understanding, like I
can do all these different ways.
And yes, the algorithm is themost efficient way of doing it.
And that's why we all do it.
But if I don't understand how wegot to the algorithm or what the
algorithm is doing, like I stilldon't understand math.
SPEAKER_01 (24:29):
Speaking of that change, I know you talked to
tons of people acrossPennsylvania.
Do you hear anything like at thestate level that change is
coming?
Anything that you could share asfar as that standard, anything.
SPEAKER_02 (24:39):
Standards.
SPEAKER_01 (24:40):
I mean, yeah.
SPEAKER_06 (24:42):
I I did hear something at the PCTM
conference.
Somebody from PDE, I'm not gonnaname drop, but uh somebody from
PDE.
SPEAKER_03 (24:51):
So you're good.
SPEAKER_06 (24:51):
Well, there's two, and one of them said it.
But this person said in a roomfull of teachers that here in
the next couple years they'regonna be blowing up the PA core
math standards and andrebuilding.
And the example that was givenwas, you know, like let's look
at box and whisker plots that'staught in like fifth grade or
(25:15):
sixth grade, whatever it is.
Um why?
Why is it there?
Like it doesn't, it has no tiesto anything.
Like, why are what are we doing?
And so moving it to where it'smore of like a statistical
thing, but where we can actuallydive into the stats.
Otherwise, it's just like uhit's just there.
So I don't know what that'sgonna look like.
I don't know.
I would love to be a part ofthat to kind of dive through it
(25:36):
because, like with us, with allthe work that we do with
learning trajectories and howstudents are supposed to learn
mathematics and in the orderthat they do, I think we could
at least be a fly in the walland and you know and ask some
questions.
But it it wasn't like I'm thiswas a private conversation, it
was a very public forum withlike a hundred people in the
room.
SPEAKER_03 (25:52):
Well, I mean, 15 years, we've learned a lot in 15
years.
SPEAKER_06 (25:55):
Have we?
SPEAKER_03 (25:56):
Well, I don't know.
I was hopeful.
Listen, you're over here beinghopeful about other things.
I can be hopeful that we'velearned we've learned more about
how the brain works, so maybethat can come into it.
SPEAKER_06 (26:06):
That's true.
That's true.
Well, I I think what I I wouldreally love, and this is like
let's be hopeful.
Let's be hopeful for a second.
Yeah, it's nice.
Um you know, you know the theGeorge Washington skit from Nate
Bergetzzy literally watchingthat last because Albert told me
to.
Albert told you to?
unknown (26:22):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_06 (26:24):
So we get so many things wrong in in America with
math, like so many things.
I'm glad like what why don't wejust do the metric system and do
base 10 and like make it easierfor everybody?
Like, isn't that like that's adream?
Because, like, worldwide, theydon't introduce fractions until
fifth grade.
SPEAKER_03 (26:42):
Because you have to understand the concepts.
If you don't understand additionand subtraction and
multiplication and division,fractions don't make sense.
SPEAKER_06 (26:48):
Well, also in fifth grade for fractions worldwide,
it's because of measurement.
Like, they don't say I went halfa kilometer and say I went 500
meters.
SPEAKER_03 (26:57):
We don't teach measurement every grade, every
year for everything.
Like that was one of my biggeststruggles with working with
students who are like in the lowincidence population.
Every time I went into aclassroom, an IEP had time and
measurement.
Time, money, and measurement.
Those were the three IEP goals.
And I'm like, oh guys.
SPEAKER_06 (27:16):
Time, money, and measurement.
I have so many questions.
SPEAKER_00 (27:19):
Rob.
Oh Lord.
We have a very long-standingtradition of the second to last
like final thought.
It was a good point.
That's what I was gonna say.
However, you give us amazingactionable items.
So we will give you anopportunity if you'd still like
to throw in a second to lastfinal thought.
But I want to give my finalthought based off of what you
just said, because I actuallyhad a lot of different things
(27:39):
written down here.
SPEAKER_03 (27:40):
And that would be you're gonna give him the you
said you're gonna give him theopportunity to have a last
thought.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_06 (27:46):
No, no, no, no, Patrice.
He's he's the knower of allknowing.
Let him tell me.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (27:51):
You're welcome back anytime, sir.
SPEAKER_03 (27:54):
You didn't pick up on the sarcasm there?
SPEAKER_00 (27:56):
No, no, that was no sarcasm.
I told you I was gonna build himup.
SPEAKER_03 (28:00):
Rob.
SPEAKER_00 (28:01):
So, Rob, I will now dramatically pause to allow you
to give your second to secondlast final thought.
If you have one, would you liketo go?
SPEAKER_06 (28:10):
Andrew's done.
I like this, I like the circle alittle bit, and then maybe it
takes me another hour to get tothat final thought.
So, you know, you come coming toa Nova Mat has been one of the
greatest joys and probably oneof the best decisions I've ever
made.
And it's and it's solely becauseof the impact that we're having
on kids.
And it's it's growing sorapidly.
Like we are endorsed by PeterLilendall with Buddha and
(28:32):
Thinking Classrooms.
We focus on learningtrajectories with with kiddos.
Our pre-K and K product is trulythe best math pre-K and K I've
ever seen.
And there isn't anybody close.
And I I stand firm in that.
The way that our we supportschools and teachers with our
math success managers, and likelike we truly are all about like
(28:52):
wanting kids to be better.
I mean, obviously, like we're acompany, so like you know, like
it's a business, but but ourbusiness are is kids.
So I really believe that this isthe best it's the best thing
that I've ever done in terms ofmoves, because truly the best
thing I ever did in terms oflike a career move was like the
like working for PittsburghPublic Schools.
I am so thankful that I had thatopportunity.
(29:13):
So, like my my multiple finalthoughts.
So in in terms yeah, in terms oflike it what you're looking for,
if you haven't heard of of us oryou haven't heard of me, like
you can look up my podcast, uhDebate Math Podcast to learn
more about me and like see kindof the work that I'm doing
there.
Anybody can reach out to me.
That's in it's not just in PA,even though I'm a PA guy.
I'm an Ohio boy, but a PA guy.
(29:34):
Uh but you can reach out to me.
But I like if and if I don'tknow if people are in New Jersey
are listening or whatever,Maryland, because like we're
kind of like in the everywhere.
SPEAKER_05 (29:42):
We're everywhere, everywhere.
SPEAKER_06 (29:44):
If you are people on the moon, please reach out to
me.
Um, I would love to visit you.
That's that that's kind of likelike we like I love talking math
with anybody.
And honestly, this podcast couldhave been another two hours.
SPEAKER_00 (29:54):
Honestly.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
So this podcast, Change Ed,started from the three of us
having conversations about thechanges that were coming in
Pennsylvania when it came toscience and science standards.
And we found that these changeswere happening in isolation, and
that you know, theseconversations we're having and
we're part of were great, butthey weren't getting out.
The common thread that I'mhearing, all the things that
(30:15):
you're saying, it's almost likewe could not that we should, but
we could cancel out any name ofany content area and say, like,
these are best practices.
This is what we should be doing.
SPEAKER_01 (30:24):
Just getting kids to think.
SPEAKER_00 (30:25):
Good teaching is a good teaching.
So, you know, these are allthings that we've been literally
talking about for three seasonsabout asking better questions.
How are you involving studentsso that they can share their
thinking and learning and beingpart of the process?
And then you well, you're sayinghow important are the answers,
which has been a hugefundamental shift for us,
specifically in the scienceworld.
But to hear that we're talkingabout that in math, we're
(30:46):
talking about that in science.
So it's learning, and truly whywe came to the name of change ed
was, you know, for us inPennsylvania, it's that the news
science, technology,engineering, environmental
literacy, and sustainabilitystandards.
You know, where was I going toTony?
I lost it.
I totally lost no idea.
SPEAKER_01 (31:04):
I had it.
You were doing well for a littlewhile.
SPEAKER_00 (31:05):
It was until I couldn't say the owners.
I love your final thought.
Go ahead.
SPEAKER_02 (31:08):
Universal.
Rob?
We're done, Rob.
SPEAKER_00 (31:12):
Yeah, that these are universal things that it goes
across.
So it's not like, you know, noone's picked like, okay,
science, we're gonna fix thishere.
It's it's this, these are whatare being talked about across
the board.
And the other the other twothings that you mentioned that I
want to highlight one more timebecause they were so powerful
and impactful for me was thatthere is a difference between
knowing the content and teachingthe content.
And that is so real in all theconversations we've had again
(31:35):
around steals or in math or inany content area, the teachers
feel intimidated by the contentwhen really there is that
significant difference.
SPEAKER_03 (31:42):
Or they know it so deeply that they forget steps A,
B, and C.
SPEAKER_00 (31:46):
Right.
It's one extreme or the other,is where where we find most
educators, not kind of thathappy medium of uh that balance.
And the other thing is that tofind the joy in education in
general and and like you said,fun and joy.
If you're not having fun, ifyou're not enjoying what you're
doing, your students sure aren'tdoing it.
And I actually want to connectwhat you were saying at the end
about the barometer, right, withthe answers.
(32:07):
How important are the answers?
When you're sharing about thatteacher who said, I give this
great lecture, well, that wastheir barometer, right?
So maybe we need to assess ourown barometers and how are we
doing this?
Not what makes us feel good,what do we think was successful?
But if students, which they areand should be, are the audience,
if they are our customers, whatare our customers telling us?
What are we getting back fromour customers?
(32:28):
Not just compliance, but youknow, how do we know that
they're learning and growing andbeing stretched?
So, Rob, this is a great, greatmeeting.
I thank you for all thewonderful compliments that you
gave me.
SPEAKER_03 (32:37):
Tony, nice find.
SPEAKER_01 (32:39):
My pleasure.
Thanks, guys.
SPEAKER_00 (32:41):
Make sure to like and subscribe and tell all your
friends.
Oh my lord, and okay, we'll kickit off.
SPEAKER_03 (32:53):
Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.
SPEAKER_00 (32:54):
I heard a little me take a little drink.
Sorry, Rob.
SPEAKER_03 (32:58):
He's make he's got mouth.
SPEAKER_01 (32:59):
Rob's got a flight, I got a tea time, you know?
Tough.
SPEAKER_03 (33:02):
What time's your tea time?
SPEAKER_06 (33:04):
No, I'm I'm finding that Tony always has a tea time,
by the way.
Oh wait.
SPEAKER_03 (33:07):
Tony always has a tea time.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (33:09):
I'm going to Kio in two weeks.
We are trying something new this season for
us.
Yeah.
It's our our spin on theSmartless podcast, where they
bring on a guest that wasn't asplanned and the rest of us don't
know who it is.
And so we're going to see howthis plays out.
You're you're our you're ourfirst victim.
I mean, our first guest, excuseme.
So we'll we'll see how it goes.
(00:21):
Welcome back to Change Ed.
Changed.
Change Ed.
The number one rated educationpodcast everywhere.
Wherever you are listening tothis, that's where it is.
Number one.
I am one of your hosts, AndrewKuhn, education consultant from
Montgomery County IntermediateUnit.
SPEAKER_03 (00:39):
Here with me is Patrice Semichek.
Apparently, Tony, we are nowhosts.
SPEAKER_00 (00:45):
I didn't say both of you.
I just said I'm one of thehosts.
SPEAKER_03 (00:48):
You know why?
Great.
Because I well, I threw a hissyfit and I was like, you know,
you're only invited to thingsbecause you call yourself the
host, not because Oh, because ofother speaking engagements.
SPEAKER_01 (00:59):
Understood.
SPEAKER_03 (01:00):
I was a little salty.
I mean, not really.
SPEAKER_00 (01:04):
My agent told me to call you guys hosts.
SPEAKER_03 (01:07):
Anyway, I am an educational consultant at the
Montgomery County IntermediateUnit.
SPEAKER_01 (01:12):
And everyone's favorite is Tony Maravito, IU21,
SDF, podcaster, esports guru,golfer.
Golfer.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (01:22):
Golf extraordinaire.
What am I doing?
SPEAKER_03 (01:25):
Just make sure, because you're looking at Tony
also.
So like sit in a space where youcan there you go.
SPEAKER_00 (01:30):
Tony's so pretty.
SPEAKER_03 (01:31):
Tony is pretty.
I'm not saying you shouldn'tlook at Tony.
SPEAKER_00 (01:33):
All right.
This first guest is Tony'ssurprise guest.
So Tony, I I know that you're agolf extraordinaire, so I'm
gonna go.
I can do that introduction.
I'm gonna let you tee this up.
Yep.
SPEAKER_03 (01:42):
Oh wow.
The dad jokes.
SPEAKER_01 (01:45):
That already starts.
So I've uh come to know thisgentleman over the last year and
a half or so.
He's been an inspiration in ourIU.
We have nothing but rave reviewsabout this gentleman.
I will let this gentlemanintroduce himself from the
western side of the state,originally from Ohio, I believe.
Mr.
Rob Baer.
SPEAKER_02 (02:02):
Hi, Rob.
SPEAKER_01 (02:03):
It's Bayer, Tony.
Come on.
Mr.
Rave Bayer.
SPEAKER_02 (02:07):
Wow.
Yeah, Tony.
SPEAKER_01 (02:09):
He did have one job.
I was too concerned about whereyou where you descended from.
SPEAKER_00 (02:14):
Rob, where were you really from Ohio?
Where in Ohio are you from?
Oh lord.
SPEAKER_06 (02:17):
Yeah, I'm originally from like southeastern Ohio.
Don't hold that against me.
And it was about an hour east ofColumbus, a town called New
Concord.
It's actually the home of theastronaut John Glenn.
So yeah, fun fact.
I went to John Glenn HighSchool.
So yeah.
Got to meet him and his wifemultiple times when I was in
high school.
And actually, I was in ninthgrade when he became the oldest
(02:40):
man to go into space.
Like I was in ninth grade andthey had a whole like CNN was at
our high school and all thatstuff.
That's awesome.
SPEAKER_00 (02:47):
So you know, not everybody can say they've gone
to John Glenn High School.
So that's that's pretty unique.
So thank you ring on somebodywho could say they went to John
Glenn High School.
That's why I did it.
Rob, I actually Rob, I used tolive in Lancaster, Ohio.
So far, like it's a little bitfarther south from where you're
at.
But it's nice to meet a fellowOhioan.
SPEAKER_03 (03:07):
Tony, did you ever live in Ohio?
I didn't.
SPEAKER_00 (03:09):
I did not.
No.
Well, we always talk aboutFlorida.
So it feels good.
SPEAKER_03 (03:13):
Just because it's a very special place.
Florida's a very special place.
SPEAKER_01 (03:18):
Oh, we do not always so the reason I asked Rob to be
on the podcast was because he'sbeen helping us out in the world
of math.
Yes.
So I fit I felt like it's fitright in with our whole STEM
situation here.
And he works well, I'll let himspeak about all of this, but he
works for Inova Matt.
Amazing career prior to this inin mathematics.
And uh he's kind of changed theway that I look at math.
(03:39):
And definitely now we've had himfor two years in a row because
he keeps being asked for.
So Rob, I'll let you take itfrom there.
Yeah, I don't know how far backyou want me to go, but a good
beginning.
SPEAKER_03 (03:49):
You were born.
Okay.
SPEAKER_06 (03:50):
I uh prior to what I'm doing now, I previously was
a kid.
And so hey, makes sense to it.
That's actually why Tony broughtme on.
No, so so I was a I was a mathteacher, and after my time being
a math teacher, there was aconversation my wife and I had,
and that I basically wanted totry to impact more kids.
(04:11):
So I went into administration.
I ended up at a charter schoolfor about seven months as an
administrator, uh like abuilding level administrator for
a variety of reasons.
It was not the proper spot forme.
So literally day two on the job,I said I needed to leave,
otherwise, this was gonnatotally ruin my whole career and
(04:33):
what I've worked for.
So I left, ended up gettinghired at IU1, and I was a math
curriculum specialist at IU1 forfour and a half years, okay, and
did a lot of work there.
And it spanned pre-COVID throughCOVID.
And then I left IU1 and becamethe executive director for K-12
Math Science and STEM atPittsburgh Public Schools for
the whole city.
(04:53):
And I was there for two and ahalf years.
And then a year ago, I was atNCSM, the National Council of
Supervisors of Mathematics inChicago.
And there's a a vendor friend ofmine that he said, You I know
you guys just adopted a mathcurriculum, but you need to come
see these people.
I entered that was introduced to15 crazy Spaniards that love
math and want to have a goodtime.
SPEAKER_04 (05:13):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_06 (05:13):
That and you know, I'm almost 11 or like 10 or 11
months into my time, and theylove math and want to have a
good time.
Like it's literally and like dowhatever we can to help kids.
So it was kind of a leap offaith getting out of like
Pizzers and getting into a fieldwhere you're not as protected in
terms of like, you know, unionsand stuff like that.
(05:34):
But it's been incrediblyfulfilling.
Like I'm able to travel a littlebit now and a lot of bit and do
a lot of work with educators allacross the state.
So it's kind of my story forthat.
SPEAKER_00 (05:43):
You you know, Rob, I want to lean into you were
saying they want to have fun.
A lot of times math can feellike a chore or feel like a job
and can be a struggle forstudents.
So I'm wondering if you can tellus a little bit about like what
does that look like?
What does it look like to havefun in math?
What is what is that?
SPEAKER_06 (06:00):
Let's uh let's call it joy, right?
Because that's like the buzzwordwhere we're talking about having
joy in math.
And to be completelytransparent, I think I think
what joy, what I thought joy wassix years ago in mathematics, I
was so wrong.
I wanted kids to have to beplaying like games with cards,
dominoes, dice, you know, andyou know, playing games like led
(06:21):
towards fluency and buildtowards fluency.
But I really didn't know what Iwas doing and what like the true
joy was until I started divinginto it.
For me and and for like on theNovomat, what true joy is is
like that aha for kids.
Getting kids to like actuallyfeel like they belong in the
classroom, that they actuallycan do the math.
That one of my good friends,Deborah Perk uh Curtin, or wait,
(06:41):
Deborah Perk Clayton.
unknown (06:44):
Shit.
SPEAKER_06 (06:45):
Deborah Perk Clayton.
Yeah.
I she just got married, so Ihave to remember her married
name.
But Deborah uh Pert Clayton.
She uh she talks about how youknow readers read.
Like if you're reading, you're areader, right?
If you're writing, you're awriter.
So if you're mathing, you're amather.
SPEAKER_03 (07:00):
Oh, we've had her out before.
I love I was like, he's goingthere.
I love that concept.
SPEAKER_06 (07:06):
She just wrote a book, and I literally just
bought it two days ago with herand standing next to me.
I was like, hey, I'm buying yourbook.
So this idea of having kids bemathers and that they belong in
the classroom, that they canactually do math.
And I think the other part of itis defining what success looks
like in math class.
Like success for some kids isjust they contributed an idea
(07:27):
and you accepted that they saidsomething.
And whether it's right or wrongand not shooting it down is like
that's key and pivotal.
And like that's like true joy inclassroom.
Like you're you're joyful whenyou feel like you belong, you're
joyful when you feel like youfeel figure some things out.
That's and when you stay true tolike learning progressions and
like what we call learningtrajectories, if you stay true
(07:48):
to that, like it's gonna buildfoundational knowledge for
students, which then leads tothat aha.
To me, that's that's that joy,that's the the high energy.
And then like if you've beenaround our Nova Map folk,
they're just a fun group, theylove life.
And I've never been a part of,and this is no knock on any
place I've ever worked, but theSpanish are built different,
(08:08):
yeah.
They are and they just and and Imean that in all the enduring
qualities, they are absolutelyamazing humans, and I've never
had a better time.
SPEAKER_03 (08:17):
That's kind of why I'm I'm excited for you and a
little jealous.
But going back to your point oflike the joy in math, because I
work with Andrew a lot, which isa downer.
SPEAKER_01 (08:26):
Joy sucker.
SPEAKER_03 (08:28):
Yeah, when I was like, what are gonna make him a
shirt, joysucker?
I'm like, what is fun?
SPEAKER_00 (08:33):
Can you please explain to me what fun looks
like?
SPEAKER_03 (08:35):
He like makes the opposite of fun.
But that's kind of why I wasalso a math consultant for 10
years at MCIU before I didscience and all the gifted
stuff.
But I fell in love with the ideaof which one doesn't belong
because there's entry points foreverybody, and every kid can
feel successful because itdoesn't even have to be numbers,
it can be shapes or pictures orall kinds of stuff.
(08:56):
And I love the idea of makingsure that all students have
entry points.
Because I remember vividlyteaching in Philadelphia and
thinking, my kids don't evenknow how to add.
They don't understand and theydon't know it with automaticity
or accuracy.
And when we are in undergrad, Iwas taught a lot of like they
need to know their facts, theyhave to know their facts, they
have to know their facts.
Yes, they do need to know theirfacts so they can free up their
(09:18):
working memory.
But at the same time, likethere's tools that we have now
that allow them to access mathdifferently without having to
memorize all these facts anddoing those horrible time tests
and just creating a lot ofanxiety.
SPEAKER_06 (09:29):
So, like you just said something that yeah, I
think Tony's heard me say thisto teachers.
When when we say things like ourour kids don't know how to add,
like they like they strugglewith addition, our kids struggle
with multiplication, they theydon't know their facts.
I think we're painting with abroad brush.
And I think that what we need todo is start asking a deeper
question, much like if you'vebeen a part of like the
(09:50):
data-wise protocol where it'sall about the root cause and
trying to dig deeper, it's like,okay, so what what's the root
cause here?
Because kids not understandinghow to add or not understanding
how to multiply, that's asymptom, but that's not the root
cause.
So, what's the root cause here?
So, like for me, if a kid'sstruggling with addition, are
they struggling with the conceptof like adding on, or are they
(10:13):
struggling with the concept ofmaking 10 or there are doubles,
or maybe the like it goes deeperto like just adding on number
concepts at all?
SPEAKER_03 (10:20):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_06 (10:21):
Not or or do they know what a number is?
Do they look at the number fiveand do they understand that
that's five objects?
Like that because the actualnumbers that we as students or
as kids are like you know,three, two, three, four years
old, and we start exposing themto numbers, we're showing them
these numbers and having themblindly rotely memorize those,
just like we do with letters.
(10:41):
Right.
I was just about to say it's somuch like letters, you don't
even yes, it's uh and forwhatever reason, I guess it
works for letters, but and butwith in math, but it I mean like
it's it's a good foundation, butthen you have to tie it, you
have to tie it to something.
Like you, if you just leave themthere and you don't tie it to
anything in terms of like uhquantity, like having
quantifiers and then alsotalking about like what's more
and what's less, then we'remissing.
(11:03):
So, like if a kid has neverreally developed that, fully
developed that, that we get onto like grade three, yeah, and
like our kids are struggling,like they don't know how to
multiply.
Well, they may not know how toadd either.
So we have to go deeper, like wehave to really go deep into what
the root causes.
So just anybody who's who'slistening, just start
challenging yourselves, like askdeeper questions, and use
manipulatives.
SPEAKER_03 (11:23):
I don't care how old they are.
Like high schoolers should beusing manipulatives to
demonstrate their thinking andrepresentations, yes, yeah.
That's why I loved I loved theidea.
We talked a lot about CRA when Ifirst started, a concrete
representational abstract piece.
Because to your point, like wedon't know what they don't know
without going deeper andfiguring it out.
And if they can't show you withcubes or tally marks or whatever
(11:46):
you're using, then it becomes uheasier to diagnose and to help
them forward faster.
SPEAKER_06 (11:51):
So I I just got back from C N C SM in Atlanta.
Oh, yeah, and the one night,like I took Pam Harris to dinner
and we were talking deeply aboutif anybody who doesn't know Pam
Harris, her podcast is calledMath is Figure Autable.
The uh website is also calledMath is Figure Autable.
And there was like six of us.
It was like her and her twopeople that work for her, and
then like myself with Albert andLauda, who's our uh she's our
(12:15):
like one of our main authors forthe Thinking Math product.
So I had basically two of ourmain authors with Pam and her
two team members, and we satthere and just went deep into
mathematics.
That's awesome.
Talking about like like I'mtalking, it was a it was a two
and a half or two hour and 45minute like dinner quote unquote
dinner.
(12:35):
Yeah, like it was long, and itwas very deep into math and
talking about learningtrajectories and how like we
build the learning or thethinking math product uh for our
pre-K to five core curriculum.
And then because she hadquestions, Pam had questions,
she's heard a lot about us, andshe was like, I need to see
more.
So we dove really deep into itand had a wonderful
conversation.
And everything you're saying,Patrice, is the same, is like
(12:56):
what came out.
Like we talked about likebuilding concepts and making
relationships with numbers andlike seeing patterns because
numbers are patterns, and how dothose build and how they
connect?
And I I don't want to spoilanything, but she said something
that I've never heard anybodysay, so that's actually gonna be
on my podcast.
So I'm not gonna spoil it here.
SPEAKER_05 (13:13):
Wait, no, Rob.
SPEAKER_00 (13:16):
Okay.
I mean, just so we're clear,Rob, this is a world renowned.
I mean, if you wanted to go outto the world, this is a four
listeners.
SPEAKER_06 (13:24):
Yeah, she she had a hot take on CRA.
SPEAKER_02 (13:27):
And I think thumbs up for time in the middle.
SPEAKER_06 (13:30):
Equal.
SPEAKER_02 (13:31):
Rob, really?
SPEAKER_06 (13:34):
Yeah, and come on, you can't do that.
She she said it and I went, I'msorry, what?
And it turned into a very deepconversation.
I said, Can I get you on thepodcast?
And we could talk about this.
And she's like, Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (13:48):
So where do you fall on like the Dan Meyer 3X tasks
situation?
SPEAKER_06 (13:52):
Yeah, they're fine.
SPEAKER_03 (13:53):
I I feel like they become a sensation.
And I think people, especiallywith Peg Smith's book about the
five practices, I think thecombination of the two is a good
place to go.
It's not a great place to live.
And I think sometimes we getstuck in.
I heard about this online.
Dan's super exciting to listento, really fun.
The problems are really fun, butthere's a time and a place, and
(14:16):
I feel like we sometimes let thependulum swing too much and we
do too much of that versus Ithink there needs to be a nice
mix of his stuff plus likepractice, really understand the
concept.
SPEAKER_06 (14:27):
I think free act tasks are beautiful if you have
a really crappy product, likecore curriculum.
Like if you're if your corecurriculum salesman.
Well, no, I listen, I I'll I'vetold Tony many times I suck at
sales.
Like I am I am an educator thatwants to help kids.
SPEAKER_05 (14:46):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_06 (14:46):
And if I talk to somebody and they're like, hey,
it's not for us, I go, allright, see ya.
Like some friends.
Like that's like I'm terrible atsales.
SPEAKER_05 (14:53):
Okay, yeah.
SPEAKER_06 (14:54):
But but it has nothing to do with like this is
not from coming from a Nova Mappiece.
This is come this is literallycoming from like if you have a
crappy core product, and I'm notgonna name names because I'm
pretty sure at this point I canget in trouble.
I used to be able to name names,but I wasn't working for a
competitor.
Yeah, I can't name namesanymore, pretty sure.
SPEAKER_03 (15:10):
But some really good conversations off air.
SPEAKER_06 (15:13):
Oh, for sure.
But but if you have a reallyterrible core curriculum that
you need something to get kidsto think in math class and you
need to get them to haveconversations and and you're
trying to fit a square peg intoa round hole, then you're force
feeding like the buildingthinking classrooms practices,
which I love.
I mean, they he endorses us,Peter endorses us, and we're the
only company that he endorses interms of math.
(15:35):
But you're force feeding a badproduct to like do the same
thing, like on standing verticalnon-permanent services, like
that doesn't make sense.
And the same thing with like,oh, we need to get kids to think
more and make them more quoteunquote real.
And so let's get an empty tankand put water in it and let's
calculate how long this is gonnabe.
Look, 14 years ago, when I firstsaw that video, like it was
(15:57):
freaking groundbreaking for me.
Like, like it changed my my wayof thinking.
SPEAKER_03 (16:01):
Even the way he explained how to do what you
have, like you're saying, atraditional textbook.
How do you pull that apart andmake it a little more yeah?
SPEAKER_06 (16:08):
Yeah, and and so and why do but why do we have to do
that with a traditionaltextbook?
Because they're so bad, like ithas not, and especially at the
high school level, yeah, there'sno engagement, and especially at
the high school level, like namea good high school product.
There isn't, and I don't blamethe the publishers for for lack
of trying, and I don't blameteachers for for staying rooted
in like what they knowcontent-wise.
(16:29):
I kind of blame what high schoolmath really is.
Yes, like I have so manyquestions on like where like
what we are with that.
SPEAKER_03 (16:35):
So anyway, so and you teach the way you were
taught, and they haven't reallybeen given opportunities to
experience but whatopportunities do they have too?
SPEAKER_06 (16:44):
Right, like outside of like Desmos, using Desmos as
a teaching tool, like the notjust like using the calculator
as a calculator because it's onthe test now.
SPEAKER_02 (16:51):
Well, it's so robot.
SPEAKER_06 (16:52):
I'm talking like I'm talking like literally using it
as a teaching tool, like as a asa means for kids.
SPEAKER_03 (16:59):
Do you do you think it's a cart before the horse
kind of thing?
Or are they continuing to makecurriculum because that's the
way that that's what people arebuying?
People are buying a traditionalcurriculum because that's what
they're used to, because that'show like I feel like it's this
weird cycle.
We've got to pull them out andbe like, okay, I need you to
experience this.
And it's really hard with highschool teachers because they
already know all the math.
(17:20):
Like you can't give them a novelconcept most of the time.
Like that's what I struggledwith, especially with high
school teachers.
Well, one, because I am scaredof them.
And two, well, I'm an elementaryteacher.
Like, I know algebra one, andthey're like, Okay, I teach
trigonometry.
And I'm like, I did that in highschool forever ago.
But I think sometimes we, asteachers, get stuck in, well, I
(17:41):
already know how to do all ofthis, and then we then forget
what it means to learn somethingor how it feels to learn
something new.
And so it's hard at the highschool level because they
already know all the concepts toteach them something new.
Right.
Like that's where I that's whereI'm like, but it that that's the
difference.
SPEAKER_06 (17:56):
And the difference really is, and this isn't just
for high school teachers, thisis for all teachers.
Yeah, there's a differencebetween knowing the content and
knowing how to teach thatcontent.
Yeah, like that, those are twovery different things.
SPEAKER_00 (18:10):
So, Rob, if thinking of our listeners, if we are
gonna try and break this cycle,I I know you said you can't name
competitors, but what are somethings, some some tools, hints
of what we should be lookingfor?
Because I think, you know, ifwe're gonna get out of this rut,
we have to know better to dobetter.
So, what are things that we howshould we be analyzing these,
you know, different curricula ormaterials or programs that we're
(18:32):
looking at?
Are there like basic things thatwe're just missing because we're
so deep into the content, wemiss these core pieces that
could that could connect or tipsor hints that you could suggest
for our listeners?
SPEAKER_06 (18:43):
That's a really great question.
And I think it's this.
If you did well, yeah, sorry.
Don't worry, I'll I'llcompliment him more later so
that way you guys are it's likehe's insufferable.
SPEAKER_02 (18:55):
Yeah, thank you.
Never welcome back.
SPEAKER_06 (18:58):
No, I think the nape scores just came out, and we see
that there are massive trends infourth grade and eighth grade
mathematics that's you know kindof trending downward.
We oftentimes we havepoliticians saying that our math
scores are uh not be able tocommit to compete with the rest
of the world.
We look at the state itself andwe trying to fix what's
(19:19):
happening in our classrooms.
So I'm saying all this becauselike whatever we don't we're
doing is clearly not working.
But then what we do we go whenwe talk curriculum, we start
looking at resources that arefamiliar and then don't force us
to change it all.
You start looking at things thatyou know, you look at a book
that I I can say this bookbecause they are they stopped
(19:40):
making it.
Like Go Math is is a book thathas been discontinued.
And when I was at PittsburghPublic Schools, Go Math was what
they had for like six years, oractually they had I think they
got an extension for like sevenyears.
And when the teachers werewanting to get a new curriculum,
and it was time for us to get anew curriculum before I left,
they started to want likewhatever.
The next product was from youknow folks that make Go Math.
(20:03):
And I pushed back and I said,well, if what we're doing is not
working, why would we want justa shinier object that's more of
the same?
And and it's not forcing kids tothink, it's not forcing kids to
talk, it's not allowing theteacher to be a facilitator, a
facilitator of learning andgetting and asking, you know,
good questions.
And then there's other productsthat go the pendulum, and
(20:26):
Patrice, I love you to talk topendulum because I I do I talk
that pendulum as well.
And there's other corecurricular resources that that
pendulum swung so far that it'sso innovative that when you look
at the teacher guides, that it'sit's so over-scaffold for
teachers.
I'm not talking aboutscaffolding for for students,
I'm talking about soover-scaffold for teachers that
it's almost like that we forgotthat teachers went to school for
this.
(20:46):
And like we should trustteachers.
So, really, what we need to dois have we need to be looking
for core curricular resourcesthat make kids think, that get
kids to you know talk, thatallows the teacher to be a
facilitator.
But that's just the vehicle.
The magic happens with teachers.
We need to invest in ourteachers and the PD and the
change.
(21:06):
Like, like that's and then it'sand it's not just investing in
the teachers, like ouradministrators should be in
those conversations.
Like if we're in at the smallerschools, and I'll tell you why
I'm saying that, but in at thesmaller schools, if I'm a
building principal and I I havesomebody coming in to work with
my teachers and changing theirmath practices, like teaching
(21:28):
them deeper content, talkingmath pedagogy, I should be in
the room so I know how to leadthat.
Now, at a at the larger schools,you know, building principals
can do that, but at the largerschools, like when you have you
know curriculum directors,assistant superintendents,
whoever see, you know, five,eight, fourteen, one hundred
schools, whatever it is,depending on the school
district, it's much harder forthem to do that, but they have
(21:49):
to trust that their people belowthem will be able to do that.
So I really think when you'relooking to select a core
curricular resource, like talkto them.
And I think the other piece toois like you got to know who
you're who you're working with.
Like what company are youworking with?
And that was something that wasbig for me when I was going to
select who was coming in topresent to us.
I got it somewhat right at thetime, but knowing what I know
(22:10):
now about like about a Nova Mat,like a Nova Mat would have been
on that list now.
But like they they weren't readyyet.
Yeah.
When I did that, you got to knowwho like how are we gonna
support our teachers?
Because that's who's the that'sthe magic.
Like the core curricularresource is one thing.
And and like Andrew, like it's aresource.
SPEAKER_02 (22:25):
That's what it is.
SPEAKER_06 (22:26):
Yeah, it's a resource, but it but it's a car.
Like like what the what is whatgood is a Lamborghini if you
can't drive it, right?
Right?
Right.
So so like you have to you haveto trust your teachers and you
have to build them up andsupport them at a systematic
level.
Like it has to be, otherwise,uh, it's gonna fail.
So it doesn't matter.
Like you can pick the shiniestobject in the in the store, but
(22:46):
once you hand it to somebody whodoesn't know what to do with it,
yeah, and then you're just notsupporting them, you go, wipe my
hands and go, hey, good luck.
SPEAKER_03 (22:52):
Resource, go go do it.
SPEAKER_06 (22:53):
And then and then in three years, you're evaluating
why it didn't work.
SPEAKER_03 (22:57):
One of the things that we did out here that was
really powerful, and I don'tknow if you guys had that out in
Pittsburgh, was Carnegie Mathhad these week-long institutes
where they would basicallyreteach teachers the math
concepts in a very in-depth,deep way.
I know that for me as anelementary teacher, math was
never really my forte.
(23:17):
I didn't really love it thatmuch.
Mostly because I had Mr.
White and his pocket protectorswho like made me do math in ways
that I didn't really like.
But I also didn't reallyunderstand a whole lot of the
concepts because I was taughtalgorithms.
I was taught to memorize.
I wasn't taught to think aboutthe math and why I was doing
what I was doing.
Especially one of the thingsthat I loved, Carnegie had this
(23:37):
one about early fractionconcepts.
And it was amazing to watchteachers go, oh, like that's why
you invert and multiply.
Like it's crazy to me that weweren't taught why or how the
math worked.
We were just taught to memorize.
SPEAKER_01 (23:53):
Gotta get through the content and get the test.
SPEAKER_03 (23:55):
Yeah.
And I think that's for a lot ofteachers, like that's kind of
where we're stuck.
And we weren't given the abilityto, to your point, have the
support to go in and say, I needto dig a little deeper and
understand when the common corecame out, I don't know, 10, 15
years ago, it feels likeforever.
When that came out, the bigshift was, well, I have to teach
them 18 different ways of doingthe same thing, but they really
(24:16):
just end up at the algorithm,but not understanding, like I
can do all these different ways.
And yes, the algorithm is themost efficient way of doing it.
And that's why we all do it.
But if I don't understand how wegot to the algorithm or what the
algorithm is doing, like I stilldon't understand math.
SPEAKER_01 (24:29):
Speaking of that change, I know you talked to
tons of people acrossPennsylvania.
Do you hear anything like at thestate level that change is
coming?
Anything that you could share asfar as that standard, anything.
SPEAKER_02 (24:39):
Standards.
SPEAKER_01 (24:40):
I mean, yeah.
SPEAKER_06 (24:42):
I I did hear something at the PCTM
conference.
Somebody from PDE, I'm not gonnaname drop, but uh somebody from
PDE.
SPEAKER_03 (24:51):
So you're good.
SPEAKER_06 (24:51):
Well, there's two, and one of them said it.
But this person said in a roomfull of teachers that here in
the next couple years they'regonna be blowing up the PA core
math standards and andrebuilding.
And the example that was givenwas, you know, like let's look
at box and whisker plots that'staught in like fifth grade or
(25:15):
sixth grade, whatever it is.
Um why?
Why is it there?
Like it doesn't, it has no tiesto anything.
Like, why are what are we doing?
And so moving it to where it'smore of like a statistical
thing, but where we can actuallydive into the stats.
Otherwise, it's just like uhit's just there.
So I don't know what that'sgonna look like.
I don't know.
I would love to be a part ofthat to kind of dive through it
(25:36):
because, like with us, with allthe work that we do with
learning trajectories and howstudents are supposed to learn
mathematics and in the orderthat they do, I think we could
at least be a fly in the walland and you know and ask some
questions.
But it it wasn't like I'm thiswas a private conversation, it
was a very public forum withlike a hundred people in the
room.
SPEAKER_03 (25:52):
Well, I mean, 15 years, we've learned a lot in 15
years.
SPEAKER_06 (25:55):
Have we?
SPEAKER_03 (25:56):
Well, I don't know.
I was hopeful.
Listen, you're over here beinghopeful about other things.
I can be hopeful that we'velearned we've learned more about
how the brain works, so maybethat can come into it.
SPEAKER_06 (26:06):
That's true.
That's true.
Well, I I think what I I wouldreally love, and this is like
let's be hopeful.
Let's be hopeful for a second.
Yeah, it's nice.
Um you know, you know the theGeorge Washington skit from Nate
Bergetzzy literally watchingthat last because Albert told me
to.
Albert told you to?
unknown (26:22):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_06 (26:24):
So we get so many things wrong in in America with
math, like so many things.
I'm glad like what why don't wejust do the metric system and do
base 10 and like make it easierfor everybody?
Like, isn't that like that's adream?
Because, like, worldwide, theydon't introduce fractions until
fifth grade.
SPEAKER_03 (26:42):
Because you have to understand the concepts.
If you don't understand additionand subtraction and
multiplication and division,fractions don't make sense.
SPEAKER_06 (26:48):
Well, also in fifth grade for fractions worldwide,
it's because of measurement.
Like, they don't say I went halfa kilometer and say I went 500
meters.
SPEAKER_03 (26:57):
We don't teach measurement every grade, every
year for everything.
Like that was one of my biggeststruggles with working with
students who are like in the lowincidence population.
Every time I went into aclassroom, an IEP had time and
measurement.
Time, money, and measurement.
Those were the three IEP goals.
And I'm like, oh guys.
SPEAKER_06 (27:16):
Time, money, and measurement.
I have so many questions.
SPEAKER_00 (27:19):
Rob.
Oh Lord.
We have a very long-standingtradition of the second to last
like final thought.
It was a good point.
That's what I was gonna say.
However, you give us amazingactionable items.
So we will give you anopportunity if you'd still like
to throw in a second to lastfinal thought.
But I want to give my finalthought based off of what you
just said, because I actuallyhad a lot of different things
(27:39):
written down here.
SPEAKER_03 (27:40):
And that would be you're gonna give him the you
said you're gonna give him theopportunity to have a last
thought.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_06 (27:46):
No, no, no, no, Patrice.
He's he's the knower of allknowing.
Let him tell me.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (27:51):
You're welcome back anytime, sir.
SPEAKER_03 (27:54):
You didn't pick up on the sarcasm there?
SPEAKER_00 (27:56):
No, no, that was no sarcasm.
I told you I was gonna build himup.
SPEAKER_03 (28:00):
Rob.
SPEAKER_00 (28:01):
So, Rob, I will now dramatically pause to allow you
to give your second to secondlast final thought.
If you have one, would you liketo go?
SPEAKER_06 (28:10):
Andrew's done.
I like this, I like the circle alittle bit, and then maybe it
takes me another hour to get tothat final thought.
So, you know, you come coming toa Nova Mat has been one of the
greatest joys and probably oneof the best decisions I've ever
made.
And it's and it's solely becauseof the impact that we're having
on kids.
And it's it's growing sorapidly.
Like we are endorsed by PeterLilendall with Buddha and
(28:32):
Thinking Classrooms.
We focus on learningtrajectories with with kiddos.
Our pre-K and K product is trulythe best math pre-K and K I've
ever seen.
And there isn't anybody close.
And I I stand firm in that.
The way that our we supportschools and teachers with our
math success managers, and likelike we truly are all about like
(28:52):
wanting kids to be better.
I mean, obviously, like we're acompany, so like you know, like
it's a business, but but ourbusiness are is kids.
So I really believe that this isthe best it's the best thing
that I've ever done in terms ofmoves, because truly the best
thing I ever did in terms oflike a career move was like the
like working for PittsburghPublic Schools.
I am so thankful that I had thatopportunity.
(29:13):
So, like my my multiple finalthoughts.
So in in terms yeah, in terms oflike it what you're looking for,
if you haven't heard of of us oryou haven't heard of me, like
you can look up my podcast, uhDebate Math Podcast to learn
more about me and like see kindof the work that I'm doing
there.
Anybody can reach out to me.
That's in it's not just in PA,even though I'm a PA guy.
I'm an Ohio boy, but a PA guy.
(29:34):
Uh but you can reach out to me.
But I like if and if I don'tknow if people are in New Jersey
are listening or whatever,Maryland, because like we're
kind of like in the everywhere.
SPEAKER_05 (29:42):
We're everywhere, everywhere.
SPEAKER_06 (29:44):
If you are people on the moon, please reach out to
me.
Um, I would love to visit you.
That's that that's kind of likelike we like I love talking math
with anybody.
And honestly, this podcast couldhave been another two hours.
SPEAKER_00 (29:54):
Honestly.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
So this podcast, Change Ed,started from the three of us
having conversations about thechanges that were coming in
Pennsylvania when it came toscience and science standards.
And we found that these changeswere happening in isolation, and
that you know, theseconversations we're having and
we're part of were great, butthey weren't getting out.
The common thread that I'mhearing, all the things that
(30:15):
you're saying, it's almost likewe could not that we should, but
we could cancel out any name ofany content area and say, like,
these are best practices.
This is what we should be doing.
SPEAKER_01 (30:24):
Just getting kids to think.
SPEAKER_00 (30:25):
Good teaching is a good teaching.
So, you know, these are allthings that we've been literally
talking about for three seasonsabout asking better questions.
How are you involving studentsso that they can share their
thinking and learning and beingpart of the process?
And then you well, you're sayinghow important are the answers,
which has been a hugefundamental shift for us,
specifically in the scienceworld.
But to hear that we're talkingabout that in math, we're
(30:46):
talking about that in science.
So it's learning, and truly whywe came to the name of change ed
was, you know, for us inPennsylvania, it's that the news
science, technology,engineering, environmental
literacy, and sustainabilitystandards.
You know, where was I going toTony?
I lost it.
I totally lost no idea.
SPEAKER_01 (31:04):
I had it.
You were doing well for a littlewhile.
SPEAKER_00 (31:05):
It was until I couldn't say the owners.
I love your final thought.
Go ahead.
SPEAKER_02 (31:08):
Universal.
Rob?
We're done, Rob.
SPEAKER_00 (31:12):
Yeah, that these are universal things that it goes
across.
So it's not like, you know, noone's picked like, okay,
science, we're gonna fix thishere.
It's it's this, these are whatare being talked about across
the board.
And the other the other twothings that you mentioned that I
want to highlight one more timebecause they were so powerful
and impactful for me was thatthere is a difference between
knowing the content and teachingthe content.
And that is so real in all theconversations we've had again
(31:35):
around steals or in math or inany content area, the teachers
feel intimidated by the contentwhen really there is that
significant difference.
SPEAKER_03 (31:42):
Or they know it so deeply that they forget steps A,
B, and C.
SPEAKER_00 (31:46):
Right.
It's one extreme or the other,is where where we find most
educators, not kind of thathappy medium of uh that balance.
And the other thing is that tofind the joy in education in
general and and like you said,fun and joy.
If you're not having fun, ifyou're not enjoying what you're
doing, your students sure aren'tdoing it.
And I actually want to connectwhat you were saying at the end
about the barometer, right, withthe answers.
(32:07):
How important are the answers?
When you're sharing about thatteacher who said, I give this
great lecture, well, that wastheir barometer, right?
So maybe we need to assess ourown barometers and how are we
doing this?
Not what makes us feel good,what do we think was successful?
But if students, which they areand should be, are the audience,
if they are our customers, whatare our customers telling us?
What are we getting back fromour customers?
(32:28):
Not just compliance, but youknow, how do we know that
they're learning and growing andbeing stretched?
So, Rob, this is a great, greatmeeting.
I thank you for all thewonderful compliments that you
gave me.
SPEAKER_03 (32:37):
Tony, nice find.
SPEAKER_01 (32:39):
My pleasure.
Thanks, guys.
SPEAKER_00 (32:41):
Make sure to like and subscribe and tell all your
friends.
Oh my lord, and okay, we'll kickit off.
SPEAKER_03 (32:53):
Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.
SPEAKER_00 (32:54):
I heard a little me take a little drink.
Sorry, Rob.
SPEAKER_03 (32:58):
He's make he's got mouth.
SPEAKER_01 (32:59):
Rob's got a flight, I got a tea time, you know?
Tough.
SPEAKER_03 (33:02):
What time's your tea time?
SPEAKER_06 (33:04):
No, I'm I'm finding that Tony always has a tea time,
by the way.
Oh wait.
SPEAKER_03 (33:07):
Tony always has a tea time.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (33:09):
I'm going to Kio in two weeks.
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