April 14, 2025 • 18 mins
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When Brian Riley walked into a meeting at Cheltenham School District nine years ago, he had no idea he was about to lead a complete transformation of their educational approach. "We're doing this project-based learning thing," the superintendent announced, and suddenly Brian found himself pioneering a program that didn't yet exist.
This candid conversation reveals the authentic journey of implementing project-based learning (PBL) from the ground up. Brian shares how visits to High Tech High in San Diego shaped their vision, providing teachers with immersive experiences alongside PBL experts. Rather than forcing integration of all subjects simultaneously, Cheltenham's approach allows projects to dictate which content areas take center stage at different times - creating authentic learning experiences that mirror real-world problem solving.
The most powerful testament to their success? Teachers who declare they could never return to traditional education after experiencing PBL. "If we stopped offering PBL, they would need to leave the school," Brian explains, highlighting how the approach rejuvenates both teaching practices and student engagement. While approximately 150 students (about 10% of the school population) participate across four grade levels, the program maintains demographic representation that mirrors the entire school - ensuring accessibility for all learners.
What makes this conversation particularly valuable is Brian's transparency about their mistakes and continuous refinement process. From initially attempting to launch in two grade levels simultaneously to learning that not every project needs to incorporate all subjects, these lessons provide invaluable guidance for other districts considering similar innovations. Whether you're a PBL expert or just beginning to explore alternative educational models, this episode offers practical insights on creating learning experiences that prepare students for a world that demands more than textbook knowledge.
Want to learn more about ChangED? Check out our website at: learn.mciu.org/changed
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Andrew's always loud right.
Speaker 3 (00:01):
Andrew no.
Speaker 2 (00:03):
It's been a very loud four years.
Speaker 3 (00:05):
Poor Brian.
Brian's going to get it behindthe scenes, although I feel like
you've already seen.
Oh, I think so.
We are what we are.
Speaker 1 (00:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
We are what we are.
He's been a professional since2023.
Andrew, a lot of me.
Speaker 3 (00:20):
What did he tell you we were going to do?
I don't remember.
Did he just say, show up?
Speaker 1 (00:23):
This was months ago that we talked about doing this.
Speaker 3 (00:26):
I'll talk about it.
I've heard from a few people.
They're like Andrew just says,show up and we show up and I
don't know Everything Brian saysis new to me, so I'll be
intrigued.
Speaker 4 (00:33):
Here we go.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
Welcome back to Change Ed.
Changed, changed Ed.
We are here because the fansdemanded and our listeners
required that we continuepodcasting, because we are the
number one rated educationpodcast in all of Pennsylvania.
I'm your host, andrew Kuhn.
Facts that's what I said.
Education consultant forMontgomery County Intermediate
(01:00):
Unit.
Speaker 3 (01:01):
And here with me is Patrice Sematick, also an
education consultant atMontgomery County Intermediate
Unit.
And here with me is PatriceSematick, also an education
consultant at a MontgomeryCounty Intermediate Unit.
Speaker 4 (01:07):
And Tony Marabito.
I will be an educationalconsultant as well.
Today from Carbon LehighIntermediate.
Speaker 3 (01:13):
Unit.
It changed.
It changed again, Tony it isever changing.
Speaker 2 (01:16):
It's a very fluid, tidal working situation.
I feel like it's a bit at thispoint what kinds of things do
they just let?
Speaker 3 (01:22):
just let you do whatever at Carp and Lehigh.
Speaker 4 (01:23):
Correct Whatever's best for kids.
There it is.
Speaker 3 (01:27):
There it is.
Speaker 2 (01:28):
Good job Doing all the hard things for kids.
Please introduce our guestbefore he leaves.
Our guest is a person thatwe've known, teresa and myself,
for quite some time.
Does a lot of work inMontgomery County, at a district
in Montgomery County, but we'vebeen able to work with them in
a lot of work in MontgomeryCounty, at a district in
Montgomery County, but we'vebeen able to work with them in a
lot of accounts and he hasactually is the single person
(01:50):
behind the inspiration of ourgreatness.
Speaker 3 (01:53):
Wow, no, no, I mean, I'm not disputing it, but that's
a big, that's a big title.
I hope you can.
Speaker 4 (01:59):
So if our podcast fails, we can help.
Speaker 3 (02:01):
I'm glad I'm closest to the door.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
Brian Riley, welcome to the show.
Thank you for coming on.
How are you?
I'm doing well.
Thank you very much for havingme.
We are super thrilled thatyou're here.
Brian, would you pleaseintroduce yourself to the
ChangeEd Nation, which, again,we are global, so you know you
could say hi to anybody whomight live overseas that you'd
like to.
You know, give a shout out to.
Speaker 1 (02:23):
And I can use any language I want.
Speaker 3 (02:25):
Yes, you certainly can.
Speaker 1 (02:26):
I'll stick with English, since that's the only
one I know.
So I'm Brian Riley.
I am the Director of Curriculumand Instruction for STEM as of
today for Cheltenham SchoolDistrict.
As of Tuesday, I'll be theDirector of Teaching and
Learning for Cheltenham SchoolDistrict.
Speaker 3 (02:43):
Oh, new position or new title.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
New title, new responsibilities.
Speaker 3 (02:47):
More responsibilities .
See how his titles are real.
Speaker 2 (02:50):
Tony, he has real titles Brian's like the master
of everything You're actually asigned title.
Speaker 4 (02:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (02:54):
You've been at Cheltenham for a while, right,
I'm in my ninth year right now.
Cheltenham is doing reallyincredible work when it comes to
project-based learning andother things, but really
incredible work when it comes toproject-based learning and
other things.
But we'd love to hear more fromyou about what that looks like,
because I imagine that maybe itwas existing before you showed
up and in your tenure.
But if not, what does thatprocess look like, or where is
(03:15):
it at now, and then maybe we canback up.
Speaker 3 (03:17):
You want to go forward and then backwards, or
do you want to hear however youwant to?
Speaker 1 (03:20):
go, it's your show.
I think the origin story isprobably easiest to tell.
We'll.
However you want, it's yourshow.
I think the origin story isprobably, oh yeah, easiest.
Yeah, we'll just go forwardfrom there.
That sounds good, and so pbldid not exist in cheltenham
before I got there.
And just to be clear, we'retalking about project-based
learning not problem-basedlearning, in this case good
distinction.
Yep, and so I showed up.
I had a colleague of mine whostarted right around the same
time.
We were invited to a meeting bythe superintendent at the time
(03:43):
and said we're doing this thing,why don't you come to the
meeting?
And then I left the meeting andapparently my colleague and I
were the two that were nowrunning project-based learning
for the district which did notexist, that's what I call a
magic trick right there.
I never went to another meetingafter that, and now you have a
new title.
Yeah, exactly, and so he and Ihad been working on PBL, for,
(04:04):
you know, from the beginningfree my time in district there
were a group of teachers thatwent out to visit high tech high
in San Diego with thesuperintendent to see what
project based learning lookslike in a school that's
completely committed to PBL.
That's the only model they use.
They are adjacent to the SanDiego unified school district.
They talk about the mission ofwhy they do PBL, which is a
(04:27):
different reason why we do PBL,and so they offer that as a
school for students who arelooking for that as their only
experience.
We offer it for students whodon't necessarily see
traditional education as theirpath forward, and so we simply
wanted to create an opportunityfor students who learn
differently, also selected, andso we simply wanted to create an
opportunity for students wholearn differently All
self-selected, and so we didn't.
We didn't reach out to studentsto say that you should be part
(04:49):
of PBL.
We did have to do that withteachers, though, and so to open
that up, to make sure we hadteachers in the classrooms, we
started with just kind ofputting an advertisement out
there to say we're going to dothis project-based learning
thing.
Are you interested and theykind of went through an
interview of sorts.
They were all teachers who werealready in the district.
I'm skipping some details here,but specifically at our high
(05:10):
school, the goal initially wasto start PBL in grades 9 and 10.
And so we were looking for atotal of seven teachers, three
per grade level and then onespecial ed teacher, because our
project-based learning isdesigned around just three
content areas, so it's the ideaof integrating science, social
studies and English.
Speaker 3 (05:29):
Nice.
Speaker 1 (05:30):
And then, knowing that we didn't want to exclude
students who had GIAPs, wedidn't want to exclude students
who had IAPs, so we wanted tomake sure we had a special ed
teacher as part of the team aswell.
As we were doing the planningand thinking about all the work
that we had to do to launch this, we decided fairly quickly that
launching it with two gradeswas a mistake that we didn't
(05:50):
want to make, and so we backedup and decided to start with
just ninth grade.
Speaker 3 (05:54):
Yeah, it's a lot.
Speaker 1 (05:55):
It's a lot, yeah, especially for 10th graders who
started ninth grade.
Our high school was a 9 through12 experience, so we didn't
want 10th graders who started as9th grade in one model and then
all of a sudden we're trying tobring them into a different
model.
Makes sense, was funded througha grant that we got through the
(06:17):
Avalon Foundation.
There were a number of thingsthat we utilized the funding for
, primarily to get people out toCalifornia and see High Tech
High and interact with theteachers there.
So all of our teachers wereable to embed with counterparts
at High Tech High on multipleoccasions.
Speaker 3 (06:35):
That's amazing.
That's project-based learningfor adults, Exactly exactly.
Speaker 1 (06:40):
And the experiences were phenomenal there, and it's
one of those things when you getto high tech high and you see
not the structure, it's notabout the facility there, it's
not about technology.
So high tech high is a bit of amisnomer.
They're fairly low tech.
It's really up to the teachers,but the intention was that it
was going to be a highlytechnical institution and it
(07:03):
wasn't that, or isn't that?
So that experience allowed ourteachers to see how students are
reacting to that model.
There were structures a littlebit different than ours, but we
learned a lot from how thethings that they're doing in
terms of they have partnerships,so teachers pair up with
another.
We set ours up to be a trio.
We made a lot of mistakes inour planning.
(07:25):
We made mistakes in our firsteight years.
We have made mistakes.
One of the things we've takenaway from a high tech guy is
they're constantly changing whatthey do and how they define PBL
, and so we're okay to recognizethat you can do something
different or more aligned toyour kids Exactly it's always
about the experiences that we'reokay to recognize that you can
do something different.
Or more aligned to your kids.
Exactly, it's always about theexperiences that we're designing
for students.
Speaker 3 (07:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
And I'll use the word experience a lot because that's
how I think about what we'retrying to do now.
Whether it's PBL or otherwise.
Our teachers have to do lessonplanning, we do curriculum
design.
To me, we're all working ondesigning the learning
experience for students.
Speaker 3 (08:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (08:02):
No matter what else you call it yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:04):
A lot of people would say that being on this show is
an experience.
Could you agree with that?
So far, so good.
Speaker 3 (08:11):
We didn't say it had to be a good experience.
Speaker 2 (08:14):
It was.
You have had an experience.
Speaker 1 (08:16):
I have and I'll continue to have that experience
.
I have had an experience I haveand I'll continue to have that
experience.
Speaker 3 (08:21):
I'm still here, Thank you.
Speaker 1 (08:22):
Brian for not running .
I'm pretty quick too, but I'mstill here.
Speaker 3 (08:26):
None of us are stopping you.
Speaker 1 (08:28):
I noticed that You're all on the other side of the
table.
Speaker 3 (08:30):
It's so you don't have to turn your head.
Speaker 2 (08:33):
It's a directional thing, we're not trying to be
mean Part of the experience, ifyou will.
Speaker 3 (08:36):
Part of the experience, if you will, I
appreciate it and this way Idon't have to look at Andrew,
that's really why so you saythat?
For you.
It's your pleasure.
Speaker 2 (08:43):
I get all the joy.
Speaker 3 (08:45):
Yeah, Eye contact sir , anyway, why is?
Speaker 1 (08:50):
the room.
So dark.
Speaker 4 (08:52):
It's ambiance, that's right.
Speaker 3 (08:54):
Everyone has their own spotlight.
I guess, I don't know.
Speaker 4 (08:56):
It's better than fluorescence.
Can I continue the podcast now,Andrew?
Speaker 2 (09:00):
Yeah, but did you finish your thought?
Speaker 1 (09:03):
I interrupted you with experience.
My thoughts never end.
Speaker 4 (09:04):
So interrupt away.
I'm already hooked with thishigh tech high.
I have never heard of it before, so this is awesome and new to
me.
So can you walk me through theday of a student in ninth grade
in this program at your school,at our school?
Yes, at your school.
Speaker 1 (09:17):
So our students start in PBL.
One of the changes that hashappened at our school is we
were a full year course based onperiods.
We're now block scheduled, sothey're semester based, but we
didn't change PBL.
Speaker 3 (09:28):
So they're still full year, they're still full year.
Speaker 1 (09:30):
They're still full year, and so that adds some
complication.
We are a bit of a headache forour principal in terms of
scheduling, I'm sure For anumber of reasons, that being
one of them, and so our studentsstart their day in PBL, and
it's a block of time.
We offer a lot of flexibilityfor our teachers, and so when
students are scheduled to go toa biology class, followed by a
(09:50):
social studies class, followedby lunch and then English, our
students go to PBL and theteachers decide what content are
they getting and when, and soit might be there may be some
crossover where they're learningEnglish and social studies
together and they're notlearning biology that day, and
then biology just has a heavierload at another point in the
year.
So it's really driven by theprojects, because the projects
(10:13):
don't have to include all threecontent areas all the time.
Teachers tried that.
That was one of the mistakes welearned early on, and it wasn't
something that we necessarilysaid, but the teachers wanted it
to the students to have thatexperience where this idea of
siloed education was obliterated, and it's really hard to do,
and so what we started to do wasback up and think about what
(10:37):
makes sense for the project interms of achieving the goal of
the project.
And if that means you're onlygoing to use two content areas,
then do that.
And what essentially whathappens is and we're currently
in a project in ninth gradewhere the English and social
studies are driving the work andthe biology teacher is sort of
the organizer and support forthat work and so that teacher
(10:57):
doesn't just like walk away andtake off.
Speaker 3 (10:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:59):
Right.
In this case, she just has adifferent role in helping the
students.
Speaker 3 (11:03):
But they're like the epitome of a team Like.
Speaker 1 (11:05):
Exactly.
Speaker 3 (11:06):
Yeah, wow, yes.
Speaker 1 (11:08):
And how many students do you have in this Total?
We are at about 150 this year,and that's across four grades,
though, so it's not not a hugenumber.
Our high school has about 1400students in it, so it's a little
little more than 10 of ourpopulation.
Kind of talk throughdemographics just so everyone
gets a better picture in termsof who's in this, because a lot
of times we'll talk aboutsomething like this as a
(11:28):
specialized program, and so onlystudents who are at the AP
level or gifted students who arelike how do I get into this?
Ours is not like that.
It's open enrollment.
Essentially it's again studentself-selection.
So anybody is welcome to be inPBL and everyone's represented
in PBL.
So the demographic of PBL looksa lot like the demographic of
(11:49):
the high school.
Speaker 3 (11:50):
That's so important.
Speaker 2 (11:52):
What are you hearing or what feedback are you getting
from?
Let's start with students, thestudents who've gone through the
part you've had for eight yearsnow.
So, but imagine there have beenstudents who have gone through
four years of PBL or have workedthrough the system at this
point.
I know you started with ninthgrade and then you kind of
probably were adding, but atthis point you probably had
students that have gone throughthat.
(12:12):
What are you hearing from themabout this experience and what
it means to them?
Speaker 1 (12:16):
That's a difficult question because we hear
different things the students inthe experience, what I've heard
and I hear this from teachersas well I'll start with teachers
first, even though you askedabout students, so sorry for
breaking protocol.
Speaker 3 (12:28):
You, do you.
Speaker 4 (12:29):
You don't have to listen to Andrew ever.
No one else does.
You don't have to listen toAndrew ever.
Speaker 2 (12:32):
No one else does.
Speaker 1 (12:36):
So our teachers?
I've had teachers say to methat if we stopped offering PBL,
they would need to leave theschool and go find a job where
they can do PBL.
They can't go back to thetraditional model of education
because of the benefits for boththem and students, and it's
something that I think weneglect a lot in terms of the
(12:57):
teacher experience, and PBLallows them to be very fresh in
terms of what they're doing yearto year, not to say we don't
repeat projects, but we'reconstantly changing them.
Nsda is a good example of we'relooking for a new curriculum.
We're hearing a lot of goodthings at NSDA around how we can
do science differently,especially with phenomena based
in three-dimensional teachingand learning.
Teachers in pbl, I think, willembrace these changes as it
(13:20):
relates to science, and I knowteachers outside of pbl are just
saying I just need my oldtextbook, right?
right and I'm going to teachfrom this book, like I always
have and so where did mystandards go?
Exactly chem.
Well, I remember the days whenwe didn't have standards.
Speaker 3 (13:35):
What are those days Right right?
Speaker 1 (13:36):
right and so this is a big shift and it's been a long
time coming.
Pbl teachers are primed for it.
Yeah, they're already.
Speaker 3 (13:43):
They have the mindset down Essentially doing it, yeah
, yeah.
Speaker 1 (13:47):
When we think about like three dimensions, like PBL
is multidimensional.
Yeah, right, yeah, without adoubt, and so, from a student
perspective, though we'rehearing similar things that it's
such a different thing to thepoint that they have to have
classes outside of PBL.
We don't offer math in PBL atall.
I don't have a good reason why.
Speaker 3 (14:03):
Because you're doing math and science and I would
assume, some projects.
Speaker 1 (14:07):
Right, I'll back up a second, because what I really
like about PBL is not from aleadership role, but it allows
me to get into classrooms andwork with students directly,
because there are certain thingsand maybe skills that I have
that haven't necessarilytranslated to our teachers yet.
So, for example, our studentsare building projects in our
wood shop right now, and that'sa skill that I have, and so I
(14:31):
come in and I can work with themhand in hand when the teachers
are like, while you're doingthat, we've got to do these
other things with these otherstudents, and so it's great to
have one more person that justcan help out.
Speaker 3 (14:41):
And that gets you in with kids again.
Exactly, that's the best part.
Speaker 1 (14:44):
Yeah, so I encourage like that, those kinds of
projects a lot so that I can bein there with them, yeah yeah,
At the same time, I can also.
I mean, most of what I do whenI was a former math teacher is
bring the math into it when itmakes sense, which is the beauty
of project-based learning isthat we insert the content where
it's necessary to achieve theoutcome of the project.
Speaker 3 (15:05):
I love it.
Speaker 2 (15:05):
And I think what you said is crucial, that with
project-based learning you canwait for your moment, you don't
have to force the moment, youdon't have to say, well, here's
how it connects you, kind ofwait, you're waiting for that
window, which is actually a lotof ways going to make the
connection to steals in NGSS.
That that's also a practicewhere we're looking to shift how
we're teaching, even in science.
(15:26):
They're just making fun of me,they're not.
You're spot on, I understand,yeah, but you're spot on, I
understand, yeah, oh, you'reenjoying it.
You're okay Wacky on the inside.
I misread the room, but I'mwondering, actually, I know I'm
telling, but I guess I'm goingto ask do you see that
connection as well?
That is, steel is kind of asimilar rollout to what you're
(15:47):
experiencing project-basedlearning and if so, is it
informing you in that process atall?
Yes, and yes, we.
And if so, is it informing youin that process at all?
Speaker 1 (15:51):
Yes, and, yes, we see a lot of evidence of STEELs,
not to say STEELs I don't wantto confuse STEELs and GSS and so
we just think about threedimensions science and
engineering practices,cross-cutting concepts.
They're not isolated to scienceinstruction, and so why are
they not part of every set ofstandards?
We have math practices, we havescience and engineering
(16:12):
practices.
They align pretty closely andso we have practices.
We employ those all throughoutproject-based learning, and so
our shift to project-basedlearning is sort of the only
area that we started to lookforward to what Steele's is
asking of our teachers.
We were doing it even withoutlooking at NGSS.
Those things just camenaturally as part of what we
(16:33):
believed project-based learningshould include for students.
Speaker 2 (16:37):
All right, listener, at this point you're wondering
how is it that we are wrappingup this session and we're
clearly not done theconversation?
If I was a listener I'd be likewhat's going on?
They promised me 15-ish minutepodcast.
We're at that time it's aboutto wrap up, but we're clearly
not done the conversation, sounbeknownst to our guests.
(16:59):
Because usually we can tell ourguests oh, this will be a
two-parter, and they know that,and we get to record two
openings and two closings.
This is going to be a surprisefor brian a surprise for brian
and the listeners and surprisehe didn't know what's happening.
Aren't they lucky?
Now we'll know if if Brianlistened to his own podcast or
not.
Speaker 3 (17:15):
Yes, now we'll know.
Speaker 2 (17:17):
We're on to you, Brian.
This is our project-basedlearning.
We're looking for somequalitative data.
Speaker 3 (17:23):
And formal assessment .
Speaker 2 (17:24):
If you listen, be sure to come back next week so
you can hear part two of ourconversation with Brian.
Until then, make sure you likeand follow this podcast and send
it to everyone you know whomight have ever heard of Project
Based Learning.
Speaker 3 (17:38):
Wow, that's a lot of people.
Wait, we're recording theending.
Speaker 2 (17:44):
Yeah, we're recording the ending right now.
Speaker 3 (17:46):
And then we're going to record that opening for the
other one.
Yeah, yeah, okay.
Andrew's always loud right.
Speaker 3 (00:01):
Andrew no.
Speaker 2 (00:03):
It's been a very loud four years.
Speaker 3 (00:05):
Poor Brian.
Brian's going to get it behindthe scenes, although I feel like
you've already seen.
Oh, I think so.
We are what we are.
Speaker 1 (00:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
We are what we are.
He's been a professional since2023.
Andrew, a lot of me.
Speaker 3 (00:20):
What did he tell you we were going to do?
I don't remember.
Did he just say, show up?
Speaker 1 (00:23):
This was months ago that we talked about doing this.
Speaker 3 (00:26):
I'll talk about it.
I've heard from a few people.
They're like Andrew just says,show up and we show up and I
don't know Everything Brian saysis new to me, so I'll be
intrigued.
Speaker 4 (00:33):
Here we go.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
Welcome back to Change Ed.
Changed, changed Ed.
We are here because the fansdemanded and our listeners
required that we continuepodcasting, because we are the
number one rated educationpodcast in all of Pennsylvania.
I'm your host, andrew Kuhn.
Facts that's what I said.
Education consultant forMontgomery County Intermediate
(01:00):
Unit.
Speaker 3 (01:01):
And here with me is Patrice Sematick, also an
education consultant atMontgomery County Intermediate
Unit.
And here with me is PatriceSematick, also an education
consultant at a MontgomeryCounty Intermediate Unit.
Speaker 4 (01:07):
And Tony Marabito.
I will be an educationalconsultant as well.
Today from Carbon LehighIntermediate.
Speaker 3 (01:13):
Unit.
It changed.
It changed again, Tony it isever changing.
Speaker 2 (01:16):
It's a very fluid, tidal working situation.
I feel like it's a bit at thispoint what kinds of things do
they just let?
Speaker 3 (01:22):
just let you do whatever at Carp and Lehigh.
Speaker 4 (01:23):
Correct Whatever's best for kids.
There it is.
Speaker 3 (01:27):
There it is.
Speaker 2 (01:28):
Good job Doing all the hard things for kids.
Please introduce our guestbefore he leaves.
Our guest is a person thatwe've known, teresa and myself,
for quite some time.
Does a lot of work inMontgomery County, at a district
in Montgomery County, but we'vebeen able to work with them in
a lot of work in MontgomeryCounty, at a district in
Montgomery County, but we'vebeen able to work with them in a
lot of accounts and he hasactually is the single person
(01:50):
behind the inspiration of ourgreatness.
Speaker 3 (01:53):
Wow, no, no, I mean, I'm not disputing it, but that's
a big, that's a big title.
I hope you can.
Speaker 4 (01:59):
So if our podcast fails, we can help.
Speaker 3 (02:01):
I'm glad I'm closest to the door.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
Brian Riley, welcome to the show.
Thank you for coming on.
How are you?
I'm doing well.
Thank you very much for havingme.
We are super thrilled thatyou're here.
Brian, would you pleaseintroduce yourself to the
ChangeEd Nation, which, again,we are global, so you know you
could say hi to anybody whomight live overseas that you'd
like to.
You know, give a shout out to.
Speaker 1 (02:23):
And I can use any language I want.
Speaker 3 (02:25):
Yes, you certainly can.
Speaker 1 (02:26):
I'll stick with English, since that's the only
one I know.
So I'm Brian Riley.
I am the Director of Curriculumand Instruction for STEM as of
today for Cheltenham SchoolDistrict.
As of Tuesday, I'll be theDirector of Teaching and
Learning for Cheltenham SchoolDistrict.
Speaker 3 (02:43):
Oh, new position or new title.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
New title, new responsibilities.
Speaker 3 (02:47):
More responsibilities .
See how his titles are real.
Speaker 2 (02:50):
Tony, he has real titles Brian's like the master
of everything You're actually asigned title.
Speaker 4 (02:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (02:54):
You've been at Cheltenham for a while, right,
I'm in my ninth year right now.
Cheltenham is doing reallyincredible work when it comes to
project-based learning andother things, but really
incredible work when it comes toproject-based learning and
other things.
But we'd love to hear more fromyou about what that looks like,
because I imagine that maybe itwas existing before you showed
up and in your tenure.
But if not, what does thatprocess look like, or where is
(03:15):
it at now, and then maybe we canback up.
Speaker 3 (03:17):
You want to go forward and then backwards, or
do you want to hear however youwant to?
Speaker 1 (03:20):
go, it's your show.
I think the origin story isprobably easiest to tell.
We'll.
However you want, it's yourshow.
I think the origin story isprobably, oh yeah, easiest.
Yeah, we'll just go forwardfrom there.
That sounds good, and so pbldid not exist in cheltenham
before I got there.
And just to be clear, we'retalking about project-based
learning not problem-basedlearning, in this case good
distinction.
Yep, and so I showed up.
I had a colleague of mine whostarted right around the same
time.
We were invited to a meeting bythe superintendent at the time
(03:43):
and said we're doing this thing,why don't you come to the
meeting?
And then I left the meeting andapparently my colleague and I
were the two that were nowrunning project-based learning
for the district which did notexist, that's what I call a
magic trick right there.
I never went to another meetingafter that, and now you have a
new title.
Yeah, exactly, and so he and Ihad been working on PBL, for,
(04:04):
you know, from the beginningfree my time in district there
were a group of teachers thatwent out to visit high tech high
in San Diego with thesuperintendent to see what
project based learning lookslike in a school that's
completely committed to PBL.
That's the only model they use.
They are adjacent to the SanDiego unified school district.
They talk about the mission ofwhy they do PBL, which is a
(04:27):
different reason why we do PBL,and so they offer that as a
school for students who arelooking for that as their only
experience.
We offer it for students whodon't necessarily see
traditional education as theirpath forward, and so we simply
wanted to create an opportunityfor students who learn
differently, also selected, andso we simply wanted to create an
opportunity for students wholearn differently All
self-selected, and so we didn't.
We didn't reach out to studentsto say that you should be part
(04:49):
of PBL.
We did have to do that withteachers, though, and so to open
that up, to make sure we hadteachers in the classrooms, we
started with just kind ofputting an advertisement out
there to say we're going to dothis project-based learning
thing.
Are you interested and theykind of went through an
interview of sorts.
They were all teachers who werealready in the district.
I'm skipping some details here,but specifically at our high
(05:10):
school, the goal initially wasto start PBL in grades 9 and 10.
And so we were looking for atotal of seven teachers, three
per grade level and then onespecial ed teacher, because our
project-based learning isdesigned around just three
content areas, so it's the ideaof integrating science, social
studies and English.
Speaker 3 (05:29):
Nice.
Speaker 1 (05:30):
And then, knowing that we didn't want to exclude
students who had GIAPs, wedidn't want to exclude students
who had IAPs, so we wanted tomake sure we had a special ed
teacher as part of the team aswell.
As we were doing the planningand thinking about all the work
that we had to do to launch this, we decided fairly quickly that
launching it with two gradeswas a mistake that we didn't
(05:50):
want to make, and so we backedup and decided to start with
just ninth grade.
Speaker 3 (05:54):
Yeah, it's a lot.
Speaker 1 (05:55):
It's a lot, yeah, especially for 10th graders who
started ninth grade.
Our high school was a 9 through12 experience, so we didn't
want 10th graders who started as9th grade in one model and then
all of a sudden we're trying tobring them into a different
model.
Makes sense, was funded througha grant that we got through the
(06:17):
Avalon Foundation.
There were a number of thingsthat we utilized the funding for
, primarily to get people out toCalifornia and see High Tech
High and interact with theteachers there.
So all of our teachers wereable to embed with counterparts
at High Tech High on multipleoccasions.
Speaker 3 (06:35):
That's amazing.
That's project-based learningfor adults, Exactly exactly.
Speaker 1 (06:40):
And the experiences were phenomenal there, and it's
one of those things when you getto high tech high and you see
not the structure, it's notabout the facility there, it's
not about technology.
So high tech high is a bit of amisnomer.
They're fairly low tech.
It's really up to the teachers,but the intention was that it
was going to be a highlytechnical institution and it
(07:03):
wasn't that, or isn't that?
So that experience allowed ourteachers to see how students are
reacting to that model.
There were structures a littlebit different than ours, but we
learned a lot from how thethings that they're doing in
terms of they have partnerships,so teachers pair up with
another.
We set ours up to be a trio.
We made a lot of mistakes inour planning.
(07:25):
We made mistakes in our firsteight years.
We have made mistakes.
One of the things we've takenaway from a high tech guy is
they're constantly changing whatthey do and how they define PBL
, and so we're okay to recognizethat you can do something
different or more aligned toyour kids Exactly it's always
about the experiences that we'reokay to recognize that you can
do something different.
Or more aligned to your kids.
Exactly, it's always about theexperiences that we're designing
for students.
Speaker 3 (07:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
And I'll use the word experience a lot because that's
how I think about what we'retrying to do now.
Whether it's PBL or otherwise.
Our teachers have to do lessonplanning, we do curriculum
design.
To me, we're all working ondesigning the learning
experience for students.
Speaker 3 (08:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (08:02):
No matter what else you call it yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:04):
A lot of people would say that being on this show is
an experience.
Could you agree with that?
So far, so good.
Speaker 3 (08:11):
We didn't say it had to be a good experience.
Speaker 2 (08:14):
It was.
You have had an experience.
Speaker 1 (08:16):
I have and I'll continue to have that experience
.
I have had an experience I haveand I'll continue to have that
experience.
Speaker 3 (08:21):
I'm still here, Thank you.
Speaker 1 (08:22):
Brian for not running .
I'm pretty quick too, but I'mstill here.
Speaker 3 (08:26):
None of us are stopping you.
Speaker 1 (08:28):
I noticed that You're all on the other side of the
table.
Speaker 3 (08:30):
It's so you don't have to turn your head.
Speaker 2 (08:33):
It's a directional thing, we're not trying to be
mean Part of the experience, ifyou will.
Speaker 3 (08:36):
Part of the experience, if you will, I
appreciate it and this way Idon't have to look at Andrew,
that's really why so you saythat?
For you.
It's your pleasure.
Speaker 2 (08:43):
I get all the joy.
Speaker 3 (08:45):
Yeah, Eye contact sir , anyway, why is?
Speaker 1 (08:50):
the room.
So dark.
Speaker 4 (08:52):
It's ambiance, that's right.
Speaker 3 (08:54):
Everyone has their own spotlight.
I guess, I don't know.
Speaker 4 (08:56):
It's better than fluorescence.
Can I continue the podcast now,Andrew?
Speaker 2 (09:00):
Yeah, but did you finish your thought?
Speaker 1 (09:03):
I interrupted you with experience.
My thoughts never end.
Speaker 4 (09:04):
So interrupt away.
I'm already hooked with thishigh tech high.
I have never heard of it before, so this is awesome and new to
me.
So can you walk me through theday of a student in ninth grade
in this program at your school,at our school?
Yes, at your school.
Speaker 1 (09:17):
So our students start in PBL.
One of the changes that hashappened at our school is we
were a full year course based onperiods.
We're now block scheduled, sothey're semester based, but we
didn't change PBL.
Speaker 3 (09:28):
So they're still full year, they're still full year.
Speaker 1 (09:30):
They're still full year, and so that adds some
complication.
We are a bit of a headache forour principal in terms of
scheduling, I'm sure For anumber of reasons, that being
one of them, and so our studentsstart their day in PBL, and
it's a block of time.
We offer a lot of flexibilityfor our teachers, and so when
students are scheduled to go toa biology class, followed by a
(09:50):
social studies class, followedby lunch and then English, our
students go to PBL and theteachers decide what content are
they getting and when, and soit might be there may be some
crossover where they're learningEnglish and social studies
together and they're notlearning biology that day, and
then biology just has a heavierload at another point in the
year.
So it's really driven by theprojects, because the projects
(10:13):
don't have to include all threecontent areas all the time.
Teachers tried that.
That was one of the mistakes welearned early on, and it wasn't
something that we necessarilysaid, but the teachers wanted it
to the students to have thatexperience where this idea of
siloed education was obliterated, and it's really hard to do,
and so what we started to do wasback up and think about what
(10:37):
makes sense for the project interms of achieving the goal of
the project.
And if that means you're onlygoing to use two content areas,
then do that.
And what essentially whathappens is and we're currently
in a project in ninth gradewhere the English and social
studies are driving the work andthe biology teacher is sort of
the organizer and support forthat work and so that teacher
(10:57):
doesn't just like walk away andtake off.
Speaker 3 (10:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:59):
Right.
In this case, she just has adifferent role in helping the
students.
Speaker 3 (11:03):
But they're like the epitome of a team Like.
Speaker 1 (11:05):
Exactly.
Speaker 3 (11:06):
Yeah, wow, yes.
Speaker 1 (11:08):
And how many students do you have in this Total?
We are at about 150 this year,and that's across four grades,
though, so it's not not a hugenumber.
Our high school has about 1400students in it, so it's a little
little more than 10 of ourpopulation.
Kind of talk throughdemographics just so everyone
gets a better picture in termsof who's in this, because a lot
of times we'll talk aboutsomething like this as a
(11:28):
specialized program, and so onlystudents who are at the AP
level or gifted students who arelike how do I get into this?
Ours is not like that.
It's open enrollment.
Essentially it's again studentself-selection.
So anybody is welcome to be inPBL and everyone's represented
in PBL.
So the demographic of PBL looksa lot like the demographic of
(11:49):
the high school.
Speaker 3 (11:50):
That's so important.
Speaker 2 (11:52):
What are you hearing or what feedback are you getting
from?
Let's start with students, thestudents who've gone through the
part you've had for eight yearsnow.
So, but imagine there have beenstudents who have gone through
four years of PBL or have workedthrough the system at this
point.
I know you started with ninthgrade and then you kind of
probably were adding, but atthis point you probably had
students that have gone throughthat.
(12:12):
What are you hearing from themabout this experience and what
it means to them?
Speaker 1 (12:16):
That's a difficult question because we hear
different things the students inthe experience, what I've heard
and I hear this from teachersas well I'll start with teachers
first, even though you askedabout students, so sorry for
breaking protocol.
Speaker 3 (12:28):
You, do you.
Speaker 4 (12:29):
You don't have to listen to Andrew ever.
No one else does.
You don't have to listen toAndrew ever.
Speaker 2 (12:32):
No one else does.
Speaker 1 (12:36):
So our teachers?
I've had teachers say to methat if we stopped offering PBL,
they would need to leave theschool and go find a job where
they can do PBL.
They can't go back to thetraditional model of education
because of the benefits for boththem and students, and it's
something that I think weneglect a lot in terms of the
(12:57):
teacher experience, and PBLallows them to be very fresh in
terms of what they're doing yearto year, not to say we don't
repeat projects, but we'reconstantly changing them.
Nsda is a good example of we'relooking for a new curriculum.
We're hearing a lot of goodthings at NSDA around how we can
do science differently,especially with phenomena based
in three-dimensional teachingand learning.
Teachers in pbl, I think, willembrace these changes as it
(13:20):
relates to science, and I knowteachers outside of pbl are just
saying I just need my oldtextbook, right?
right and I'm going to teachfrom this book, like I always
have and so where did mystandards go?
Exactly chem.
Well, I remember the days whenwe didn't have standards.
Speaker 3 (13:35):
What are those days Right right?
Speaker 1 (13:36):
right and so this is a big shift and it's been a long
time coming.
Pbl teachers are primed for it.
Yeah, they're already.
Speaker 3 (13:43):
They have the mindset down Essentially doing it, yeah
, yeah.
Speaker 1 (13:47):
When we think about like three dimensions, like PBL
is multidimensional.
Yeah, right, yeah, without adoubt, and so, from a student
perspective, though we'rehearing similar things that it's
such a different thing to thepoint that they have to have
classes outside of PBL.
We don't offer math in PBL atall.
I don't have a good reason why.
Speaker 3 (14:03):
Because you're doing math and science and I would
assume, some projects.
Speaker 1 (14:07):
Right, I'll back up a second, because what I really
like about PBL is not from aleadership role, but it allows
me to get into classrooms andwork with students directly,
because there are certain thingsand maybe skills that I have
that haven't necessarilytranslated to our teachers yet.
So, for example, our studentsare building projects in our
wood shop right now, and that'sa skill that I have, and so I
(14:31):
come in and I can work with themhand in hand when the teachers
are like, while you're doingthat, we've got to do these
other things with these otherstudents, and so it's great to
have one more person that justcan help out.
Speaker 3 (14:41):
And that gets you in with kids again.
Exactly, that's the best part.
Speaker 1 (14:44):
Yeah, so I encourage like that, those kinds of
projects a lot so that I can bein there with them, yeah yeah,
At the same time, I can also.
I mean, most of what I do whenI was a former math teacher is
bring the math into it when itmakes sense, which is the beauty
of project-based learning isthat we insert the content where
it's necessary to achieve theoutcome of the project.
Speaker 3 (15:05):
I love it.
Speaker 2 (15:05):
And I think what you said is crucial, that with
project-based learning you canwait for your moment, you don't
have to force the moment, youdon't have to say, well, here's
how it connects you, kind ofwait, you're waiting for that
window, which is actually a lotof ways going to make the
connection to steals in NGSS.
That that's also a practicewhere we're looking to shift how
we're teaching, even in science.
(15:26):
They're just making fun of me,they're not.
You're spot on, I understand,yeah, but you're spot on, I
understand, yeah, oh, you'reenjoying it.
You're okay Wacky on the inside.
I misread the room, but I'mwondering, actually, I know I'm
telling, but I guess I'm goingto ask do you see that
connection as well?
That is, steel is kind of asimilar rollout to what you're
(15:47):
experiencing project-basedlearning and if so, is it
informing you in that process atall?
Yes, and yes, we.
And if so, is it informing youin that process at all?
Speaker 1 (15:51):
Yes, and, yes, we see a lot of evidence of STEELs,
not to say STEELs I don't wantto confuse STEELs and GSS and so
we just think about threedimensions science and
engineering practices,cross-cutting concepts.
They're not isolated to scienceinstruction, and so why are
they not part of every set ofstandards?
We have math practices, we havescience and engineering
(16:12):
practices.
They align pretty closely andso we have practices.
We employ those all throughoutproject-based learning, and so
our shift to project-basedlearning is sort of the only
area that we started to lookforward to what Steele's is
asking of our teachers.
We were doing it even withoutlooking at NGSS.
Those things just camenaturally as part of what we
(16:33):
believed project-based learningshould include for students.
Speaker 2 (16:37):
All right, listener, at this point you're wondering
how is it that we are wrappingup this session and we're
clearly not done theconversation?
If I was a listener I'd be likewhat's going on?
They promised me 15-ish minutepodcast.
We're at that time it's aboutto wrap up, but we're clearly
not done the conversation, sounbeknownst to our guests.
(16:59):
Because usually we can tell ourguests oh, this will be a
two-parter, and they know that,and we get to record two
openings and two closings.
This is going to be a surprisefor brian a surprise for brian
and the listeners and surprisehe didn't know what's happening.
Aren't they lucky?
Now we'll know if if Brianlistened to his own podcast or
not.
Speaker 3 (17:15):
Yes, now we'll know.
Speaker 2 (17:17):
We're on to you, Brian.
This is our project-basedlearning.
We're looking for somequalitative data.
Speaker 3 (17:23):
And formal assessment .
Speaker 2 (17:24):
If you listen, be sure to come back next week so
you can hear part two of ourconversation with Brian.
Until then, make sure you likeand follow this podcast and send
it to everyone you know whomight have ever heard of Project
Based Learning.
Speaker 3 (17:38):
Wow, that's a lot of people.
Wait, we're recording theending.
Speaker 2 (17:44):
Yeah, we're recording the ending right now.
Speaker 3 (17:46):
And then we're going to record that opening for the
other one.
Yeah, yeah, okay.
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