April 21, 2025 • 19 mins
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Project-based learning represents a transformative approach to education, focusing less on test performance and more on creating meaningful learning experiences that prepare students for life beyond school walls. This episodes concludes the conversation of one district's eight-year journey implementing PBL, revealing both challenges and triumphs along the way.
What happens when standardized test scores aren't the primary goal? After years of implementation, the data shows PBL students perform similarly to their traditional counterparts on assessments like the Biology Keystone. This neutrality in test performance removes pressure and allows educators to focus on what truly matters—developing skills that last a lifetime. As our guest explains, "Content's the content... but it's the other skills built into PBL that students feel very strong in" compared to their college classmates.
The journey wasn't without obstacles. Middle school implementation faced unique challenges with larger student numbers and the complexity of integrating four content areas into cohesive projects. Rather than forcing a rigid model, the school adapted by encouraging every teacher to develop at least one PBL experience during the year. This thematic approach maintains content focus while providing students with connected learning experiences.
Perhaps the most powerful takeaway comes from a quote that guided their implementation: "Be flexible with the plans but stubborn on the vision." This iterative mindset—continuously improving through experimentation, reflection, and refinement—embodies the very essence of project-based learning itself. As schools navigate changing educational landscapes, this nimble, self-aware approach becomes essential for sustainable innovation that truly benefits students.
Ready to transform your educational approach? Subscribe to ChangED for more insights on innovative teaching practices that prepare students for tomorrow's world.
Want to learn more about ChangED? Check out our website at: learn.mciu.org/changed
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
welcome back to change ed changed.
I am your host that was theworst tony ever it was good I am
your host, ader coon, educationconsultant from montgomery
county intermediate unit, andhere with me is therese semitech
also out of the IntermediateUnit.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
I'm still stuck on how horrible of a Tony you are.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
And also what that is .
Speaker 2 (00:28):
He's really got you down.
He's really got you figured outLike his.
Andrew is spot on, but you needsome work.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
I'm going to do this, tony Bush, I'm Tony Marabito
and I work at Carbon LehighIntermediate Unit.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
Why is Tony all of a sudden from the South?
Speaker 1 (00:43):
Stop.
Why is Tony all of a suddenfrom the South and I don't have
a?
Speaker 2 (00:45):
title Now from like Louisiana.
What was that?
Speaker 1 (00:52):
So listen, I'm bringing you back into the whole
conversation so you're notconfused, because we're all
confused.
Last time, as you remember fromour Project Based Learning
conversation with Brian Riley,we told you that he didn't know
that we were ending theconversation and then we're
picking it up.
Guess who else didn't know TonyMaravita, so we used ai to do
some voice impressions of tony.
I hope you enjoyed them.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
No yeah, well, you don't blame the ai machine when
they, when they rise up.
They need to know that I had nopart of this I said ai, which
is under intelligence, notartificial intelligence.
Speaker 1 (01:19):
That's not the only ai that's out there.
Oh sorry, that's insulting.
So Tony is going to be just assurprised as everyone else.
Well, actually now we'll knowif Tony even listens to the
podcast.
We're getting all thisinformation back, formative
feedback.
So much good stuff.
We're going to just let Tonykick it off and pick up the
conversation right where we leftoff.
Take it away, tony.
Speaker 4 (01:43):
So obviously this program is successful.
You've done it for eight years.
You're constantly updating andchanging.
So let me ask the PDE questionhow are the students doing on
the bio exam in ninth grade andhow do you kind of take that
data and then apply it and, youknow, make your changes from
there?
Speaker 3 (01:57):
So I won't give you specifics.
Sure, and I'm going to borrowsomething from high tech high
Cause one of the things we askedthat exact question.
So students who come to HighTech High and students who go to
San Diego Unified SchoolDistrict, what's the academic
performance comparison?
Because a lot of peoplecriticize High Tech High because
they have lots of donors, theyhave lots of money that they can
(02:17):
use, and they say we keep ourcosts to mimic what San Diego
Unified has for their studentsas well, like they're for people
.
Speaker 1 (02:23):
No-transcript For people, exactly.
Speaker 3 (02:25):
And they also said we don't exist because we want to
have higher performance than SanDiego Unified.
Our goal is around theexperiences for students and at
the same time, our studentshappen to perform at the same
level as San Diego.
That helped us out a lot inthinking about what our mission
was around PBL.
And so we didn't go into PBLsaying our students in
(02:47):
project-based learning aren'tgoing to score higher than other
students on the bio keystone,and what we found is they score
similarly, so there's noadvantage or disadvantage in
terms of their performance Ifyou're in PBL or not.
It's about the experience.
That's what's different.
Speaker 1 (03:01):
I imagine that would take off a lot of pressure as
well, versus if it happened tobe sold where it was like, well,
they will perform 20% better.
And then it doesn't happen.
And then you're answeringquestions Instead.
You said they're not going tobe harmed, they might do better,
they might do the same, but itseems like we're kind of we can
cross this one out.
This is a neutral choice, andwhile maybe that took a
(03:22):
different level of convincing inthe beginning, at least you're
not backpedaling, even eightyears later saying, well, we've
been waiting for this 97%improvement that you promised us
.
Speaker 2 (03:30):
I think it's helpful that your superintendent was the
one that brought it to you.
It'd be a very different battleif you were like I want to do
this and to convince thesuperintendent, as opposed to
having them say we're going todo this now, agreed, yes.
Speaker 3 (03:41):
He came to us with it he had presented to the school
board, and so they were behindit.
I'm not sure if they werereally supportive, but they
weren't.
They weren't an obstacle RightRight.
Over the years, they havebecome big supporters of it.
Some of their children havebeen students in the program,
and so we get a lot of supportfrom the school board.
One of the metrics that wereally want to focus on what
(04:02):
happens when students graduateas a four-year PBL student and
we needed four years to wait forthat right.
Because we started in ninthgrade and let it grow on its own
.
And just as an aside, as weintroduced ninth graders to 10th
grade, pbl, we also addedseventh grade at our middle
school and then, when our 10thgraders became 11th graders,
those seventh graders becameeighth graders, so we had
(04:22):
seventh through 12th grade.
At one point in a very formalPBL identified way that's
changed.
We've changed the model at themiddle school but we did
graduate students and after thatfirst year of having students
go through the program for fouryears, where did they go, as
they've left high school?
And we did a summer comparisonand looked at what did the high
(04:44):
school, where did the studentsgo from the high school and
where did students go from PBL?
And again they matched in termsof which kind of universities,
what kind of majors are theymajoring in, how many students
went to the military, how manystudents went into the workforce
?
The numbers were almostidentical to each other.
Speaker 4 (04:58):
That's amazing, yeah.
Speaker 3 (04:59):
And one thing we also say with PBL is we don't say
it's a STEM preparation typeprogram.
It includes students with allkinds of interests and so when
students went off to college,their majors showed that they
were doing all sorts of thingsand what we heard from every one
of them that's come back totalk about the experience is
content's the content.
It's the same no matter whatyou do.
But it's some of the otherskills that they get in PBL that
(05:21):
are built into the program thatthey feel they're very strong
in because of that experiencethat they know that classmates
of theirs at the collegiatelevel are struggling with and so
that when hearing, that kind ofjustifies the reason to keep
going because, there's a lotthat we're doing that isn't
written in curriculum, it's notdocumented on a piece of paper
anywhere.
(05:42):
It's just built into what theteachers believe in and what we
support.
Speaker 4 (05:45):
What a great idea collecting that data after their
graduation that most schoolsprobably don't do.
That's awesome.
Speaker 1 (05:50):
Have you received feedback from the circle of
responsibility, from parents,from guardians, even
partnerships, that you mighthave in the district?
I'm asking this question togive you a little perspective.
In the school district that Ilive in, my oldest daughter was
able to be part of an integratedprogram.
It was in seventh grade and shewas in middle school, but it
almost operated as if inelementary school, from the
(06:11):
standpoint of we were in thesame room, except you pulled out
for math.
And while she loved theexperience and it was tremendous
for her, for her growth and forher collaboration, for working
with others, the teachers werefabulous she wanted to go back
to eighth grade to have thetraditional experience.
As her parents, I'm like, oh man, she's waking up now in the
morning being like I don't wantto go to school, I don't want to
(06:33):
go, but she's an eighth grader,so she's having a hard time
making that connection.
As to what happened as herparent, I'm like, man, you were
just alive in a different waydoing that.
So I was just wondering whatare you hearing from the
audience?
Speaker 3 (06:45):
So, while we have PBL 9 through 12, that situation
pops up at the end of 10th grade.
Students can choose to leavePBL anytime they want.
Speaker 2 (06:53):
Is that when you start your AP classes?
Speaker 3 (06:55):
Exactly, yeah, and so students are looking for and
I'm not sure if it's studentchoice or if there is
encouragement from families.
Speaker 2 (07:02):
Probably some of both , yeah.
Speaker 3 (07:04):
Some of both opportunities.
For electives it's theopportunity to go to our
technical school.
The scheduling sometimes getsin the way of that, and so now
they're faced with a choice Do Istay in PBL?
But I really want to go do theculinary arts program, and so
(07:24):
PBL is not going to get that forme.
So I have to pick one or theother, and so we tend to lose a
good number of students after10th grade going into 11th grade
.
One thing we offer a littledifferently for 12th grade
compared to the rest of thestudent body is our 12th grade
experience is one semester ofscience and then the second
semester, and there'scomplications with scheduling
(07:45):
around math credits, which I'mnot going to get into.
But what we do to balance outthe year-long PBL experience is
they have an internship in thesecond semester For students who
don't need another course.
They'll be part of theinternship instead.
Speaker 2 (08:00):
Oh, very cool.
Speaker 3 (08:06):
And so we have a number of partnerships that help
place those students intosituations where they're
learning something in a verydifferent environment, different
experience.
Speaker 2 (08:11):
Nice.
That directly kind of alignswith the whole PBL idea right.
Speaker 3 (08:15):
Exactly Yep.
Speaker 2 (08:16):
Very well thought out .
Do with the whole PBL idearight.
Exactly, yep, very well thoughtout.
Do you mind talking about themiddle school you said you used?
Speaker 3 (08:22):
to have traditional PBL there and it's changed so we
brought that on, knowing whatwe wanted was students coming
out of a PBL experience at themiddle school and feeding right
into the high school, like everyprogram in a middle school,
should feed into their highschool.
We did it differently because ofthe way middle school was
teamed.
They had four teachers, samething.
They got the same training.
They went out to high tech high, did the whole embed with
teachers out there.
(08:43):
Their middle school set upslightly different at high tech
high than their high school, aswas ours.
Those teachers really put a lotof pressure on themselves to do
four content, including math,integrated projects.
That's so hard and so that washard.
The harder part was they have alot more students because
they're not self-selecting.
Now, if you're on this team ofteachers, you're in PBL, and so
(09:06):
if our typical class in ninthgrade at the high school is mid
fifties in terms of studentcount, the middle school had 120
plus kids, and so we'rethinking about a project and
getting all those kids tocontribute to it and grading all
that and having experiencesthat are rich for every single
one of them, that was achallenge.
Speaker 2 (09:26):
It's a very different piece, yeah.
Speaker 3 (09:27):
Yeah, we did do another year where we added
eighth grade and it was the samething.
It was still very challenging,based on just on the numbers of
students to teacher ratio, andthen after that it switched to
we want PBL for everybody, everyteacher, every student, meaning
we're going to work with everyteacher to develop at least one
(09:48):
experience throughout the schoolyear, integrated throughout,
and it doesn't have to beintegrated in terms of the
content.
And so if I'm a social studiesteacher and I'm not going to I'm
going to do a project just forsocial studies my team can be
doing something else weencourage that sort of model
works really well when you thinkabout a thematic project, and
(10:08):
so, while we don't necessarilyhave to collaborate on how the
project's going to move forward,when I'm designing my piece
it's touching on this theme, sothe student experience feels
more connected.
I'll admit that we've not done agreat job of supervising that
in a way that has come tofruition, and so we've got some
teachers that are doing aphenomenal job with
(10:29):
project-based learning at themiddle school because they were
bought into it from thebeginning.
They you know the the one ourone social studies teacher was
on the team when we started itand he's still doing
project-based learning.
You get glimpses of it everyonce in a while.
What's nice is that we now havesome teachers at our elementary
level, so K-6 that are startingto think that way and they're
(10:50):
dabbling in it, and our wholegoal is exactly that right, it's
to try to get that happeningthroughout the district at some
level, and so we can build onthat Right right.
Speaker 1 (11:01):
Brian, thank you for coming on the show and for
sharing all that I mean there'sobviously we're done.
No, no, no, no, I wasn't.
Speaker 2 (11:12):
That's happening.
Speaker 1 (11:13):
I'm sorry, it seemed like an abrupt ending.
Speaker 2 (11:16):
Oh, it's 36 minutes.
That's why, sorry, I was justlike we've just been talking and
I've been like all in.
Speaker 1 (11:21):
There's a sticker for you.
By the way, you want to bepodcast famous, podcast famous.
Thanks.
Speaker 2 (11:26):
You should put it on all kinds of things and make
Katie very jealous.
Speaker 1 (11:38):
All kinds of things there's only one, there's three.
Speaker 3 (11:40):
Yeah, oh, I get three , take as many as you want.
Speaker 1 (11:42):
Do we have any more?
We need one for?
Oh, we need one.
You get two, sir.
Two, yeah, two.
Don't be greedy, bro.
Yeah, come on, I'll take one,you know what I'll take one.
Speaker 3 (11:51):
Order a sticker.
Speaker 1 (11:56):
I'll make your own in your maker lab.
Fine, oh, that's cool.
What's this one?
Speaker 3 (11:57):
that's just that one's for katie.
That one's for katie, yeah,which k?
Speaker 1 (11:58):
I've got a lot of katie's now whichever one you
thought of when I said it's forkatie wow, we are recording, we
are recording so I would bequiet about which katie you're
thinking of.
Speaker 3 (12:07):
There's only one great answer I don't even know
her.
That's great answer.
Speaker 1 (12:12):
Two that I work with, one that I think about happy
valentine's day to the oneexactly you know who you are you
three decide among yourselveswe don't need to get the hell up
on last names so inappropriate?
Speaker 2 (12:32):
come on, I'm ready, we're professional.
Speaker 3 (12:34):
Do you have a daryl williams quote?
Speaker 1 (12:35):
yeah, he does brian, thank you, we talked about it
before he came here.
We wanted to give you amoncumber county intermediate
unit friends of familyopportunity which was for you to
have the second to last finalword.
Have you ever?
Speaker 2 (12:50):
listened to the podcast before I have okay.
So you know, this is not justfor you just but I just want
people to like if they everhaven't listened to it, and then
they choose to listen to morethan one.
Speaker 1 (13:01):
They're like I thought I was special is
everyone from montgomery countyI thought I was special but in
this moment, on this podcast,during this recording, this is
special just for you it isspecial wow brian.
Speaker 3 (13:12):
just like all your stickers, I feel special for all
my one, no, two stickers, twostickers.
Speaker 2 (13:18):
And two mints, but leave one for Logan.
Yeah, just take one.
Speaker 3 (13:24):
Oh, Logan didn't take one.
Speaker 2 (13:25):
No, we locked him out .
He wasn't here yet.
Speaker 1 (13:29):
He's like are you serious?
Well, now I'm going to lunchand I'm taking you.
Speaker 2 (13:34):
Yes, anyway.
Speaker 3 (13:36):
So what am I doing now?
Speaker 1 (13:39):
There's a lot happening.
Speaker 2 (13:41):
Brian, don't tell our boss that we're this
professional, this professional.
Speaker 3 (13:44):
I saw a quote on your phone from Daryl.
I didn't know if we were goingto go to the quote.
Speaker 4 (13:49):
He's saving it for his final thought.
Speaker 2 (13:53):
I have some pictures on my phone.
Speaker 3 (13:54):
I do too, go ahead, I'll leave it Cool.
Speaker 2 (13:58):
Daryl.
Speaker 1 (13:58):
So, brian, there's a lot to what we've been talking
about and we could keep going,because there's a lot here to
unpack, a lot of rich thingsthat we can share with our
listeners, but because we try tolimit this to less than a
three-day podcast, do you havefinal thoughts that you'd like
to share with them, or pearls ofwisdom that maybe you didn't
(14:19):
get to share already about yourexperience?
Speaker 3 (14:21):
I think I touched on it, but I want to go back to
kind of the way we started andthinking about our jobs as
educators is to design, create,provide opportunities through
experience.
My experience as a student Igot good grades.
I don't remember a lot of whatI learned that got me to this
point, but I can't like talkabout the things that we did,
(14:43):
the experiences that we right aslike really rich things, like
it was an amazing experience.
What what I want and pbl is anattempt at that is to create
that sort of situation forstudents so when they look back
on their education they canrecall those experiences and
that's connected to what they'relearning and so there's a lot
more meaning behind it I love,love it.
Speaker 1 (15:04):
We, I, I, I, I'm just kidding, fun to edit.
Speaker 3 (15:09):
I'm thinking about the language conversation
earlier.
Is that English?
Speaker 2 (15:12):
or we don't know.
We don't know.
It shows up in every episode.
So whoever's that language hasgot some good stuff.
Speaker 1 (15:18):
Well, thank you for coming on the show and for
sharing all that you did.
There's a there's a lot here tounpack and to be clear for our
listeners this is nine years inthe making, so this is a
development process, and I onlysay it as a form of
encouragement for them so thatthey're not like how am I going
to start this?
And I think the gem that youhad as well is when you
(15:39):
mentioned that for your middleschool, we decided that we were
going to try to integrate itwithin a system that we already
have.
So those are very real thingsand very real challenges that
exist of trying to navigatedifferent components in
different parts of a school andhow it's established and very
real challenges.
And it reminded me of somethingwe heard together at the NSDA
conference in Philly from theWednesday keynote, who is
(16:02):
Darrell Williams Jr, and what hesaid was be flexible with the
plans but be stubborn on thevision.
And I heard that resonatingthrough everything you were
saying of we were going tolaunch with two grades and we
said, whoa, let's pull back.
We still want this vision, butlet's change the plan because we
don't want to shoot ourselvesin the foot already.
(16:23):
And then we're like nope, thiswon't work.
This, you know, overwhelm thesystem, so how do we integrate
it into the system?
And you even tried things.
When you said you went to 10thgrade, you also introduced 7th
grade.
Yep, see, I listen, I listen tomy own podcast and take notes,
but can I have that sticker back?
Poor.
Speaker 2 (16:41):
Katie.
Speaker 1 (16:47):
But you took her sticker where was I, yep?
Speaker 2 (16:50):
no, no, no, no you integrated, flexible on the
means.
So so you continue, youcontinue.
Speaker 1 (16:57):
Yes, thank you, thank you so I'm here brian.
So, but you were trying otherthings as well.
Right, the year one worked.
Okay, let's try something here,and then you're still adjusting
.
So I feel like that's a verypowerful message that I took
with me from the keynote andthat really again resonated with
me here in this situation.
Speaker 2 (17:16):
But if that's living into the project-based mindset,
you're never finished, you'realways iterating and you're
always doing these things andyou're never finished.
And I think it's powerful tosee it from the students doing
it to the teachers doing it, tothe administration doing it.
Speaker 3 (17:31):
That's huge, yeah, and I think the one word that
comes to mind a lot when wethink about exactly what you're
talking about and what I thinkwe need moving forward with a
change in standards inPennsylvania, with steals, and
that is.
We all need to be nimble as wemove forward.
Speaker 2 (17:43):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (17:43):
Yeah, the other hidden gem that I heard, as you
were saying that wasself-awareness.
But across the board, what didthe students need?
What did the teachers need?
What do we need at theadministrative level?
What do the you know the circleof influence what do they need?
What does everyone need as wedo this?
And so, opening up that channelof communication and, using
another Steele's term, creatingdiscourse, let's have
(18:05):
conversations about this so thatwe can figure it out.
So, brian, you by far have beenour favorite guest on the show
for this specific podcast, sothank you so much.
Speaker 2 (18:16):
In the last 45 minutes.
Speaker 1 (18:17):
Yeah, thank you so much for coming on the show.
We appreciate your time.
Speaker 2 (18:21):
He's never coming back.
Speaker 1 (18:22):
Yeah, please tell your friends how professional we
are and for all of ourlisteners.
Thank you, as always, fortuning in and for making this
the number one podcast inPennsylvania and the world.
Make sure that you like andsubscribe and follow and text us
on Spotify and text us onSpotify.
Speaker 2 (18:38):
Is it just Spotify?
Speaker 1 (18:40):
Wherever texts are accepted.
Andrew's number is Three, justdial three what well, I'll start
that over.
Thank you very much.
You're pointing it out.
Terrible, that was brian.
Oh, nope, hate that too.
(19:01):
Wow, it's terrible.
Katie.
Where's katie?
Which which one?
Wow, that's terrible, katie.
Where's Katie, which one?
Speaker 3 (19:07):
We need the Katie.
Speaker 4 (19:09):
Any Katie.
Speaker 2 (19:10):
Any Katie.
welcome back to change ed changed.
I am your host that was theworst tony ever it was good I am
your host, ader coon, educationconsultant from montgomery
county intermediate unit, andhere with me is therese semitech
also out of the IntermediateUnit.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
I'm still stuck on how horrible of a Tony you are.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
And also what that is .
Speaker 2 (00:28):
He's really got you down.
He's really got you figured outLike his.
Andrew is spot on, but you needsome work.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
I'm going to do this, tony Bush, I'm Tony Marabito
and I work at Carbon LehighIntermediate Unit.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
Why is Tony all of a sudden from the South?
Speaker 1 (00:43):
Stop.
Why is Tony all of a suddenfrom the South and I don't have
a?
Speaker 2 (00:45):
title Now from like Louisiana.
What was that?
Speaker 1 (00:52):
So listen, I'm bringing you back into the whole
conversation so you're notconfused, because we're all
confused.
Last time, as you remember fromour Project Based Learning
conversation with Brian Riley,we told you that he didn't know
that we were ending theconversation and then we're
picking it up.
Guess who else didn't know TonyMaravita, so we used ai to do
some voice impressions of tony.
I hope you enjoyed them.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
No yeah, well, you don't blame the ai machine when
they, when they rise up.
They need to know that I had nopart of this I said ai, which
is under intelligence, notartificial intelligence.
Speaker 1 (01:19):
That's not the only ai that's out there.
Oh sorry, that's insulting.
So Tony is going to be just assurprised as everyone else.
Well, actually now we'll knowif Tony even listens to the
podcast.
We're getting all thisinformation back, formative
feedback.
So much good stuff.
We're going to just let Tonykick it off and pick up the
conversation right where we leftoff.
Take it away, tony.
Speaker 4 (01:43):
So obviously this program is successful.
You've done it for eight years.
You're constantly updating andchanging.
So let me ask the PDE questionhow are the students doing on
the bio exam in ninth grade andhow do you kind of take that
data and then apply it and, youknow, make your changes from
there?
Speaker 3 (01:57):
So I won't give you specifics.
Sure, and I'm going to borrowsomething from high tech high
Cause one of the things we askedthat exact question.
So students who come to HighTech High and students who go to
San Diego Unified SchoolDistrict, what's the academic
performance comparison?
Because a lot of peoplecriticize High Tech High because
they have lots of donors, theyhave lots of money that they can
(02:17):
use, and they say we keep ourcosts to mimic what San Diego
Unified has for their studentsas well, like they're for people
.
Speaker 1 (02:23):
No-transcript For people, exactly.
Speaker 3 (02:25):
And they also said we don't exist because we want to
have higher performance than SanDiego Unified.
Our goal is around theexperiences for students and at
the same time, our studentshappen to perform at the same
level as San Diego.
That helped us out a lot inthinking about what our mission
was around PBL.
And so we didn't go into PBLsaying our students in
(02:47):
project-based learning aren'tgoing to score higher than other
students on the bio keystone,and what we found is they score
similarly, so there's noadvantage or disadvantage in
terms of their performance Ifyou're in PBL or not.
It's about the experience.
That's what's different.
Speaker 1 (03:01):
I imagine that would take off a lot of pressure as
well, versus if it happened tobe sold where it was like, well,
they will perform 20% better.
And then it doesn't happen.
And then you're answeringquestions Instead.
You said they're not going tobe harmed, they might do better,
they might do the same, but itseems like we're kind of we can
cross this one out.
This is a neutral choice, andwhile maybe that took a
(03:22):
different level of convincing inthe beginning, at least you're
not backpedaling, even eightyears later saying, well, we've
been waiting for this 97%improvement that you promised us
.
Speaker 2 (03:30):
I think it's helpful that your superintendent was the
one that brought it to you.
It'd be a very different battleif you were like I want to do
this and to convince thesuperintendent, as opposed to
having them say we're going todo this now, agreed, yes.
Speaker 3 (03:41):
He came to us with it he had presented to the school
board, and so they were behindit.
I'm not sure if they werereally supportive, but they
weren't.
They weren't an obstacle RightRight.
Over the years, they havebecome big supporters of it.
Some of their children havebeen students in the program,
and so we get a lot of supportfrom the school board.
One of the metrics that wereally want to focus on what
(04:02):
happens when students graduateas a four-year PBL student and
we needed four years to wait forthat right.
Because we started in ninthgrade and let it grow on its own
.
And just as an aside, as weintroduced ninth graders to 10th
grade, pbl, we also addedseventh grade at our middle
school and then, when our 10thgraders became 11th graders,
those seventh graders becameeighth graders, so we had
(04:22):
seventh through 12th grade.
At one point in a very formalPBL identified way that's
changed.
We've changed the model at themiddle school but we did
graduate students and after thatfirst year of having students
go through the program for fouryears, where did they go, as
they've left high school?
And we did a summer comparisonand looked at what did the high
(04:44):
school, where did the studentsgo from the high school and
where did students go from PBL?
And again they matched in termsof which kind of universities,
what kind of majors are theymajoring in, how many students
went to the military, how manystudents went into the workforce
?
The numbers were almostidentical to each other.
Speaker 4 (04:58):
That's amazing, yeah.
Speaker 3 (04:59):
And one thing we also say with PBL is we don't say
it's a STEM preparation typeprogram.
It includes students with allkinds of interests and so when
students went off to college,their majors showed that they
were doing all sorts of thingsand what we heard from every one
of them that's come back totalk about the experience is
content's the content.
It's the same no matter whatyou do.
But it's some of the otherskills that they get in PBL that
(05:21):
are built into the program thatthey feel they're very strong
in because of that experiencethat they know that classmates
of theirs at the collegiatelevel are struggling with and so
that when hearing, that kind ofjustifies the reason to keep
going because, there's a lotthat we're doing that isn't
written in curriculum, it's notdocumented on a piece of paper
anywhere.
(05:42):
It's just built into what theteachers believe in and what we
support.
Speaker 4 (05:45):
What a great idea collecting that data after their
graduation that most schoolsprobably don't do.
That's awesome.
Speaker 1 (05:50):
Have you received feedback from the circle of
responsibility, from parents,from guardians, even
partnerships, that you mighthave in the district?
I'm asking this question togive you a little perspective.
In the school district that Ilive in, my oldest daughter was
able to be part of an integratedprogram.
It was in seventh grade and shewas in middle school, but it
almost operated as if inelementary school, from the
(06:11):
standpoint of we were in thesame room, except you pulled out
for math.
And while she loved theexperience and it was tremendous
for her, for her growth and forher collaboration, for working
with others, the teachers werefabulous she wanted to go back
to eighth grade to have thetraditional experience.
As her parents, I'm like, oh man, she's waking up now in the
morning being like I don't wantto go to school, I don't want to
(06:33):
go, but she's an eighth grader,so she's having a hard time
making that connection.
As to what happened as herparent, I'm like, man, you were
just alive in a different waydoing that.
So I was just wondering whatare you hearing from the
audience?
Speaker 3 (06:45):
So, while we have PBL 9 through 12, that situation
pops up at the end of 10th grade.
Students can choose to leavePBL anytime they want.
Speaker 2 (06:53):
Is that when you start your AP classes?
Speaker 3 (06:55):
Exactly, yeah, and so students are looking for and
I'm not sure if it's studentchoice or if there is
encouragement from families.
Speaker 2 (07:02):
Probably some of both , yeah.
Speaker 3 (07:04):
Some of both opportunities.
For electives it's theopportunity to go to our
technical school.
The scheduling sometimes getsin the way of that, and so now
they're faced with a choice Do Istay in PBL?
But I really want to go do theculinary arts program, and so
(07:24):
PBL is not going to get that forme.
So I have to pick one or theother, and so we tend to lose a
good number of students after10th grade going into 11th grade
.
One thing we offer a littledifferently for 12th grade
compared to the rest of thestudent body is our 12th grade
experience is one semester ofscience and then the second
semester, and there'scomplications with scheduling
(07:45):
around math credits, which I'mnot going to get into.
But what we do to balance outthe year-long PBL experience is
they have an internship in thesecond semester For students who
don't need another course.
They'll be part of theinternship instead.
Speaker 2 (08:00):
Oh, very cool.
Speaker 3 (08:06):
And so we have a number of partnerships that help
place those students intosituations where they're
learning something in a verydifferent environment, different
experience.
Speaker 2 (08:11):
Nice.
That directly kind of alignswith the whole PBL idea right.
Speaker 3 (08:15):
Exactly Yep.
Speaker 2 (08:16):
Very well thought out .
Do with the whole PBL idearight.
Exactly, yep, very well thoughtout.
Do you mind talking about themiddle school you said you used?
Speaker 3 (08:22):
to have traditional PBL there and it's changed so we
brought that on, knowing whatwe wanted was students coming
out of a PBL experience at themiddle school and feeding right
into the high school, like everyprogram in a middle school,
should feed into their highschool.
We did it differently because ofthe way middle school was
teamed.
They had four teachers, samething.
They got the same training.
They went out to high tech high, did the whole embed with
teachers out there.
(08:43):
Their middle school set upslightly different at high tech
high than their high school, aswas ours.
Those teachers really put a lotof pressure on themselves to do
four content, including math,integrated projects.
That's so hard and so that washard.
The harder part was they have alot more students because
they're not self-selecting.
Now, if you're on this team ofteachers, you're in PBL, and so
(09:06):
if our typical class in ninthgrade at the high school is mid
fifties in terms of studentcount, the middle school had 120
plus kids, and so we'rethinking about a project and
getting all those kids tocontribute to it and grading all
that and having experiencesthat are rich for every single
one of them, that was achallenge.
Speaker 2 (09:26):
It's a very different piece, yeah.
Speaker 3 (09:27):
Yeah, we did do another year where we added
eighth grade and it was the samething.
It was still very challenging,based on just on the numbers of
students to teacher ratio, andthen after that it switched to
we want PBL for everybody, everyteacher, every student, meaning
we're going to work with everyteacher to develop at least one
(09:48):
experience throughout the schoolyear, integrated throughout,
and it doesn't have to beintegrated in terms of the
content.
And so if I'm a social studiesteacher and I'm not going to I'm
going to do a project just forsocial studies my team can be
doing something else weencourage that sort of model
works really well when you thinkabout a thematic project, and
(10:08):
so, while we don't necessarilyhave to collaborate on how the
project's going to move forward,when I'm designing my piece
it's touching on this theme, sothe student experience feels
more connected.
I'll admit that we've not done agreat job of supervising that
in a way that has come tofruition, and so we've got some
teachers that are doing aphenomenal job with
(10:29):
project-based learning at themiddle school because they were
bought into it from thebeginning.
They you know the the one ourone social studies teacher was
on the team when we started itand he's still doing
project-based learning.
You get glimpses of it everyonce in a while.
What's nice is that we now havesome teachers at our elementary
level, so K-6 that are startingto think that way and they're
(10:50):
dabbling in it, and our wholegoal is exactly that right, it's
to try to get that happeningthroughout the district at some
level, and so we can build onthat Right right.
Speaker 1 (11:01):
Brian, thank you for coming on the show and for
sharing all that I mean there'sobviously we're done.
No, no, no, no, I wasn't.
Speaker 2 (11:12):
That's happening.
Speaker 1 (11:13):
I'm sorry, it seemed like an abrupt ending.
Speaker 2 (11:16):
Oh, it's 36 minutes.
That's why, sorry, I was justlike we've just been talking and
I've been like all in.
Speaker 1 (11:21):
There's a sticker for you.
By the way, you want to bepodcast famous, podcast famous.
Thanks.
Speaker 2 (11:26):
You should put it on all kinds of things and make
Katie very jealous.
Speaker 1 (11:38):
All kinds of things there's only one, there's three.
Speaker 3 (11:40):
Yeah, oh, I get three , take as many as you want.
Speaker 1 (11:42):
Do we have any more?
We need one for?
Oh, we need one.
You get two, sir.
Two, yeah, two.
Don't be greedy, bro.
Yeah, come on, I'll take one,you know what I'll take one.
Speaker 3 (11:51):
Order a sticker.
Speaker 1 (11:56):
I'll make your own in your maker lab.
Fine, oh, that's cool.
What's this one?
Speaker 3 (11:57):
that's just that one's for katie.
That one's for katie, yeah,which k?
Speaker 1 (11:58):
I've got a lot of katie's now whichever one you
thought of when I said it's forkatie wow, we are recording, we
are recording so I would bequiet about which katie you're
thinking of.
Speaker 3 (12:07):
There's only one great answer I don't even know
her.
That's great answer.
Speaker 1 (12:12):
Two that I work with, one that I think about happy
valentine's day to the oneexactly you know who you are you
three decide among yourselveswe don't need to get the hell up
on last names so inappropriate?
Speaker 2 (12:32):
come on, I'm ready, we're professional.
Speaker 3 (12:34):
Do you have a daryl williams quote?
Speaker 1 (12:35):
yeah, he does brian, thank you, we talked about it
before he came here.
We wanted to give you amoncumber county intermediate
unit friends of familyopportunity which was for you to
have the second to last finalword.
Have you ever?
Speaker 2 (12:50):
listened to the podcast before I have okay.
So you know, this is not justfor you just but I just want
people to like if they everhaven't listened to it, and then
they choose to listen to morethan one.
Speaker 1 (13:01):
They're like I thought I was special is
everyone from montgomery countyI thought I was special but in
this moment, on this podcast,during this recording, this is
special just for you it isspecial wow brian.
Speaker 3 (13:12):
just like all your stickers, I feel special for all
my one, no, two stickers, twostickers.
Speaker 2 (13:18):
And two mints, but leave one for Logan.
Yeah, just take one.
Speaker 3 (13:24):
Oh, Logan didn't take one.
Speaker 2 (13:25):
No, we locked him out .
He wasn't here yet.
Speaker 1 (13:29):
He's like are you serious?
Well, now I'm going to lunchand I'm taking you.
Speaker 2 (13:34):
Yes, anyway.
Speaker 3 (13:36):
So what am I doing now?
Speaker 1 (13:39):
There's a lot happening.
Speaker 2 (13:41):
Brian, don't tell our boss that we're this
professional, this professional.
Speaker 3 (13:44):
I saw a quote on your phone from Daryl.
I didn't know if we were goingto go to the quote.
Speaker 4 (13:49):
He's saving it for his final thought.
Speaker 2 (13:53):
I have some pictures on my phone.
Speaker 3 (13:54):
I do too, go ahead, I'll leave it Cool.
Speaker 2 (13:58):
Daryl.
Speaker 1 (13:58):
So, brian, there's a lot to what we've been talking
about and we could keep going,because there's a lot here to
unpack, a lot of rich thingsthat we can share with our
listeners, but because we try tolimit this to less than a
three-day podcast, do you havefinal thoughts that you'd like
to share with them, or pearls ofwisdom that maybe you didn't
(14:19):
get to share already about yourexperience?
Speaker 3 (14:21):
I think I touched on it, but I want to go back to
kind of the way we started andthinking about our jobs as
educators is to design, create,provide opportunities through
experience.
My experience as a student Igot good grades.
I don't remember a lot of whatI learned that got me to this
point, but I can't like talkabout the things that we did,
(14:43):
the experiences that we right aslike really rich things, like
it was an amazing experience.
What what I want and pbl is anattempt at that is to create
that sort of situation forstudents so when they look back
on their education they canrecall those experiences and
that's connected to what they'relearning and so there's a lot
more meaning behind it I love,love it.
Speaker 1 (15:04):
We, I, I, I, I'm just kidding, fun to edit.
Speaker 3 (15:09):
I'm thinking about the language conversation
earlier.
Is that English?
Speaker 2 (15:12):
or we don't know.
We don't know.
It shows up in every episode.
So whoever's that language hasgot some good stuff.
Speaker 1 (15:18):
Well, thank you for coming on the show and for
sharing all that you did.
There's a there's a lot here tounpack and to be clear for our
listeners this is nine years inthe making, so this is a
development process, and I onlysay it as a form of
encouragement for them so thatthey're not like how am I going
to start this?
And I think the gem that youhad as well is when you
(15:39):
mentioned that for your middleschool, we decided that we were
going to try to integrate itwithin a system that we already
have.
So those are very real thingsand very real challenges that
exist of trying to navigatedifferent components in
different parts of a school andhow it's established and very
real challenges.
And it reminded me of somethingwe heard together at the NSDA
conference in Philly from theWednesday keynote, who is
(16:02):
Darrell Williams Jr, and what hesaid was be flexible with the
plans but be stubborn on thevision.
And I heard that resonatingthrough everything you were
saying of we were going tolaunch with two grades and we
said, whoa, let's pull back.
We still want this vision, butlet's change the plan because we
don't want to shoot ourselvesin the foot already.
(16:23):
And then we're like nope, thiswon't work.
This, you know, overwhelm thesystem, so how do we integrate
it into the system?
And you even tried things.
When you said you went to 10thgrade, you also introduced 7th
grade.
Yep, see, I listen, I listen tomy own podcast and take notes,
but can I have that sticker back?
Poor.
Speaker 2 (16:41):
Katie.
Speaker 1 (16:47):
But you took her sticker where was I, yep?
Speaker 2 (16:50):
no, no, no, no you integrated, flexible on the
means.
So so you continue, youcontinue.
Speaker 1 (16:57):
Yes, thank you, thank you so I'm here brian.
So, but you were trying otherthings as well.
Right, the year one worked.
Okay, let's try something here,and then you're still adjusting
.
So I feel like that's a verypowerful message that I took
with me from the keynote andthat really again resonated with
me here in this situation.
Speaker 2 (17:16):
But if that's living into the project-based mindset,
you're never finished, you'realways iterating and you're
always doing these things andyou're never finished.
And I think it's powerful tosee it from the students doing
it to the teachers doing it, tothe administration doing it.
Speaker 3 (17:31):
That's huge, yeah, and I think the one word that
comes to mind a lot when wethink about exactly what you're
talking about and what I thinkwe need moving forward with a
change in standards inPennsylvania, with steals, and
that is.
We all need to be nimble as wemove forward.
Speaker 2 (17:43):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (17:43):
Yeah, the other hidden gem that I heard, as you
were saying that wasself-awareness.
But across the board, what didthe students need?
What did the teachers need?
What do we need at theadministrative level?
What do the you know the circleof influence what do they need?
What does everyone need as wedo this?
And so, opening up that channelof communication and, using
another Steele's term, creatingdiscourse, let's have
(18:05):
conversations about this so thatwe can figure it out.
So, brian, you by far have beenour favorite guest on the show
for this specific podcast, sothank you so much.
Speaker 2 (18:16):
In the last 45 minutes.
Speaker 1 (18:17):
Yeah, thank you so much for coming on the show.
We appreciate your time.
Speaker 2 (18:21):
He's never coming back.
Speaker 1 (18:22):
Yeah, please tell your friends how professional we
are and for all of ourlisteners.
Thank you, as always, fortuning in and for making this
the number one podcast inPennsylvania and the world.
Make sure that you like andsubscribe and follow and text us
on Spotify and text us onSpotify.
Speaker 2 (18:38):
Is it just Spotify?
Speaker 1 (18:40):
Wherever texts are accepted.
Andrew's number is Three, justdial three what well, I'll start
that over.
Thank you very much.
You're pointing it out.
Terrible, that was brian.
Oh, nope, hate that too.
(19:01):
Wow, it's terrible.
Katie.
Where's katie?
Which which one?
Wow, that's terrible, katie.
Where's Katie, which one?
Speaker 3 (19:07):
We need the Katie.
Speaker 4 (19:09):
Any Katie.
Speaker 2 (19:10):
Any Katie.
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