March 3, 2025 • 23 mins
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Join us for an engaging discussion unravels the magic of science education through storytelling and phenomenon-based learning. This episode highlights the significance of cultivating curiosity and how integrating real-world events into the curriculum can transform student engagement. Our hosts share practical strategies for creating effective storylines, emphasizing that students' intellectual resources should not only be acknowledged but actively utilized.
As we navigate through the complexities of teaching younger students, we focus on how to create an environment that welcomes exploration rather than rote memorization. With insights from seasoned educators, this episode emphasizes the importance of fostering a supportive space where students feel free to articulate their ideas and wonderings—turning missteps into valuable teaching moments. Join us as we champion a dynamic approach to science education that empowers learners to ask questions and seek answers, ensuring that their experience in the classroom fuels their long-lasting passion for learning. Tune in and be part of the conversation—let's redefine what it means to teach and learn science effectively! Don’t forget to subscribe and share the ChangED podcast!
Want more Ted? Attend one or all of his sessions at the 2025 NSTA Conference in Philly. Use the NSTA app and search for Ted Willard or the session titles below:
Selecting Phenomena to Motivate Student Sense-making
The NSTA Atlas of the Three Dimensions
Unpacking the Crosscutting Concepts with a new NSTA Quick-Reference Guide to the Three Dimensions
NSTA's Trilogy of Guides to the Three Dimensions
ChangED is the official podcast for the NSTA Philly Conference.
Experience more ChangED/NSTA podcasts and learn about the Philly NSTA Conference by visiting nsta.org/podcast.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
You're a wealth of information and wealth of
knowledge, but also so easy totalk to too?
Speaker 2 (00:04):
Absolutely.
Because there's people thatknow a lot but can't really talk
about it but can't verbalize it.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
Yeah, so this is Like down to my level.
Speaker 4 (00:10):
Unicorn Ted.
The advantage I've had is I'vebeen doing this essentially
nonstop for over a decade.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Right, so that helps.
Speaker 4 (00:19):
I've got some prepared material.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
What song do you want to sing?
Ted, We'll do.
Speaker 4 (00:24):
Queen.
It's based on we Are theChampions, but you'll see
there's some differences.
I'm excited.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
Get ready.
Speaker 3 (00:35):
Get ready.
Welcome back to Change Ed.
Changed.
Change Ed your number onepodcast in everywhere,
everywhere.
Is that your number one podcastin everywhere?
Speaker 2 (00:47):
Everywhere.
Speaker 3 (00:47):
Is that a?
Thing?
Speaker 2 (00:48):
Yeah, everywhere I think, everywhere is a, thing,
yeah, especially in my family.
Speaker 3 (00:52):
yeah, and especially in Discovery Education, we are
number one in DiscoveryEducation.
Their favorite podcast to tuneinto.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
Well, they're everywhere, so I guess that
works.
Speaker 3 (01:00):
Yeah, it's a simpatico relationship.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
Wow, big words.
Speaker 3 (01:05):
I am your host, Andrew Kuhn, education
consultant from MontgomeryCounty Intermediate Unit.
Speaker 4 (01:13):
And here with me is Ted Willard from Discovery
Education.
Yes, we are going to have a TEDTalk.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
That's what we're going to have.
Oh, TED Talk.
Speaker 3 (01:21):
Glad to have you back in the show, sir.
I also have two co-hosts herewith me.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
I am Patrice Semecek and I still work at the
Montgomery County IntermediateUnit and I have the same job
every time.
Speaker 3 (01:35):
All right.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
I want an acronym like Tony has SDF.
What is ours?
Speaker 3 (01:40):
EC.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
EC.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
Tony Tony Marabito, CLIU21iu 21 sdf.
Lots of letters there.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
Yes, yeah, it's just too long, it's too much every
episode, oh my gosh we are superfortunate to have back with us
for our ted talk today.
Speaker 3 (02:00):
ted willard, welcome back to the show.
Super glad to have you.
I hear that you have a uniqueway of connecting I'm going to
say different genres intolearning and we'd love to hear
what that is.
Speaker 4 (02:14):
This is a perfect example of how I am totally
willing to humiliate myself forthe sake of science education.
Speaker 2 (02:19):
I love it.
You are among good company,because we humiliate ourselves
daily.
Speaker 4 (02:24):
We've tried to teach time after time, taught lots of
lessons that we thought werefine, but we were mistaken.
Kids learn nothing new, butwith the framework of science
education, we now know what todo.
But with the framework ofscience education, we now know
(02:45):
what to do, and students willlearn on and on and on and on.
Teach three dimensions, myfriends, and we must integrate
them so that they blend.
Dun, dun, dun dun.
Teach three dimensions.
Teach three dimensions.
(03:06):
Teach three dimensions, notjust core ideas.
Teach all three dimensions, sothey learn.
Speaker 1 (03:18):
Yay.
Speaker 3 (03:20):
That was fantastic.
Speaker 1 (03:22):
Fantastic.
Speaker 3 (03:23):
I felt like I was like in my head.
I'm hearing Friday Mercury likebelting it out.
Speaker 2 (03:26):
It was great that was amazing.
Speaker 3 (03:26):
Fantastic.
I felt like I was like in myhead.
Speaker 1 (03:27):
I'm hearing Freddie Mercury like belting it out.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
It was great.
That was awesome From now on.
Speaker 1 (03:30):
Andrew might have to lead every podcast with that
song.
I think That'd be great.
Speaker 3 (03:34):
We'd lose all of our listeners if that were to happen
.
Speaker 2 (03:36):
We can isolate that audio so we can keep his song
and honestly, Ted you andFreddie Mercury very similar
appearance.
Speaker 3 (03:42):
It's hard to tell any difference.
Speaker 1 (03:44):
That's right.
Yeah, it was great Never seenhim in the same place at the
same time.
Oh, Tony, not a conspiracytheory.
Speaker 2 (03:51):
Come on yeah.
Speaker 3 (03:55):
Ted, I love how you actually recapped our last
podcast with you Seriously Inthis song.
I was like oh, we talked aboutthat.
We talked about that, we talkedabout that and how you kind of
encapsulated it.
And one of the things I loveabout that as well is that for
me, so many songs can tell astory and there's a story that
(04:17):
goes along with that.
See what I did there.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
I'm borderline impressed by what's happening
right now.
Speaker 3 (04:22):
And I feel borderline .
I appreciate that Almost acompliment.
You know, you know you'rebuilding up and then you kind of
get to that spot where you'relike, oh that, as we talked
about last time, that aha momentwhere it kind of shifts your
perspective and what you'reseeing, and then, and then the
story kind of kind of goes downand I'm wondering what
connection there might be therewith storylines, because we talk
(04:45):
a lot about storylines when itcomes to NGSS and specifically
Steeles and the power ofstorylines.
So I'm wondering if you cantalk a little bit about that.
Speaker 4 (04:54):
Students really have tremendous intellectual
resources that we as teachersfrequently don't pay attention
to or underestimate is maybe theway I would sort of say that to
or underestimate is maybe theway I would we'd sort of say
that and what we can frequentlydo when in traditionally in
instruction, what things we'vedone in some cases sometimes we
try to simplify and simplify andsimplify and make it easier and
(05:15):
easier and easier, and we're wedumb down or water down the
curriculum, and which doesn'treally sort of help much.
Another thing that we sometimesdo is we spend a lot of time on
saying well, to use a foodanalogy, if you eat your kind of
soggy vegetables, we'll giveyou a nice piece of chocolate
(05:36):
cake, or maybe we'll, maybewe'll give you a little, a
little treat.
You know, some really nice horsd'oeuvres at the beginning,
something fun to do, and thenwe'll do something really nice
at the end, but we're still justkind of giving you this mush in
the middle of the thing.
Speaker 3 (05:49):
You sound like an experienced parent there, Ted.
Speaker 4 (05:55):
I might have some experiences in that.
What the idea of a storyline isis the idea of let's make the
main course really delicious,let's make the vegetables
extremely tasty, let's givestudents a reason to do the
things we want them to do.
So again, this idea of studentshave the intellectual abilities
(06:15):
.
If you think about as a parent,if you have done this, or you
can probably as a teacher,you've probably had this with
your students Think about whenyour students have tried to
persuade you to do something,how powerful their ability to
engage in argumentation is.
You know, we think sometimeskids can't remember what they
(06:37):
did yesterday in class.
But let's face it, if you saidback in September that on the
last day of the semester beforethis winter break you would do
such and such thing, they willremember that Three months later
and tell you that Sure will,and remind you Okay.
So the point about this is thatwe need to find a way to have
(06:59):
kids actually care about whatthey are learning, and so how
can we do that?
And the idea of a storyline isreally focused on that.
The storyline starts with someinitial event, some phenomena
that you show students that theyare, and I think I said that
(07:19):
some of this last time.
But this idea of that I'mcurious about that.
I care about understanding that.
I know what's happening there,but I don't know why it's
happening.
But I want to know why.
And so taking that and thenbringing that forward in terms
of, well, now I want tounderstand that I have questions
(07:40):
about that, and so we can listout questions that students have
that students care about, andthen our whole instruction is
about answering those questions.
Well, how do you answerquestions in science?
You gather evidence.
How do you go about gatheringevidence?
(08:02):
Well, one way to do it is thatyou go and you carry out an
investigation, and we have to gothrough that process.
Another way you can getevidence is actually to obtain
and evaluate information, and ineither of those things then
you're ultimately analyzing datain some fashion or another and
you're ultimately then trying toconstruct an explanation or
develop a model of thatphenomenon that you have engaged
(08:23):
with.
So that's the basics of this.
The thing that's really amazingand sort of a paradox in the
idea of storylines is everythingI just described there sounds,
and is meant to be, verystudent-centered.
That we said the students haveasked the questions, the
students get to decide how theygo about answering those
questions, what activities theydo.
Throughout this process, theyare leading it.
(08:45):
However, in a reallywell-designed curriculum, I, as
the teacher, I as the curriculumdesigner, have stacked the deck
in such a way that I know whatquestions the students are going
to ask and so I know what I'mgoing to have the students do
throughout that whole learningprocess.
I've sequenced things in such away that, oh, at the end of
(09:05):
this particular investigation,they've figured these certain
things out, but oh, they havesome other questions.
Well, guess what?
That's what we're going to workon tomorrow, and I have
actually a planned sequence forthis.
It's not just kids going allover the place wherever they
want to, it's that things havebeen sequenced in such a way
that every day's activities leadstudents along the way.
(09:28):
The term I like to use aroundthis is that I have, as a
teacher, set up breadcrumbs forthe student to guide them
through the forest, and I bringthis up as the same point I said
.
So I bring up for a physicsteacher and teaching Newton's
laws.
Newton apparently took about adecade to come together with his
laws and, from what Iunderstand, he was a pretty
smart guy.
(09:48):
I had some good students, but Idon't know if I had any Isaac
Newtons in my classroom, and wedon't have 10 years to figure
out Newton's three laws.
So I need to set things up insuch a way that takes them
through the process of where Iwant them to go in some ways
here.
Let me give you a littleexample about that and try to
(10:10):
play out.
Let's imagine for a second Ihave a glass of water sitting on
the table around all of us, andwe noticed a glass of water
sitting on the table with aroundall of us and we noticed there
are some water droplets on theoutside of that.
And those water droplets I wantto know where did those water
droplets come from?
What do the three of you thinkwould be a common answer for my
students about where those waterdroplets came from At a high
(10:31):
school level, at any grade level?
What do you think if I asked awaiter in a restaurant where did
those droplets come from?
Speaker 1 (10:37):
Condensation, evaporation, something along
those lines.
Speaker 4 (10:41):
I think Tony is way more scientifically focused than
any of you.
Speaker 2 (10:47):
All those years of being a waiter.
Speaker 4 (10:49):
That I don't know if I know about right now, I'm just
, you know, I'm just.
Speaker 2 (10:52):
I was going to say it's the water on the outside.
It has a different temperaturethan the water on the inside,
and so it's forming.
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (11:02):
So let me, let me sweating.
It's hot, it's sweating, yeahit's andrew.
Speaker 4 (11:06):
You are the.
Speaker 2 (11:07):
You are the you're the typical high school student
whoa wait, wait.
I was about typical I'm overhere trying to celebrate, but I
got it right.
Speaker 4 (11:21):
No, I want to.
No, I really want to play withthis.
A lot of people will say thiswater came from inside the glass
.
Okay, and I want to stop for amoment and have you think about
how good that answer is.
A student that tells me thatthe water on the outside of the
glass came from the inside ofthe glass knows that it had to
come from someplace, so theyneed a source of water.
There's water sitting rightthere in the glass, and so I can
(11:43):
say we have that water thatcould be the source of it.
That is an entirely reasonablemodel, given the evidence, that
is, is it scientificallyaccurate?
No, it is not.
That is not the ultimateexplanation, but that is an
extremely reasonable model.
Now, andrew is my chosenstudent here, and because I
think you've just got exactlythe right type of personality
for me to use this a second.
I wanted to play out twodifferent scenarios for me as a
(12:07):
teacher to deal with Andrew'swhat I just described as his
reasonable explanations.
Speaker 2 (12:12):
I can't wait for this acting.
Speaker 4 (12:14):
Okay, andrew, where did the water come from?
He just told you inside, insideexample, one that's wrong
that's wrong water.
Actually that's wrong.
It's air around the glass andit and the glass is cool, so the
(12:36):
water that's in the aircondenses on it.
So let me point out for you,okay, in what I've learned here.
The research and scienceeducation says that that is not
the best way to deal with astudent who provides that
explanation I can imagine I'dfeel very shut down I wouldn't.
Speaker 1 (12:52):
I feel that way.
Just give you the right answer.
Speaker 2 (12:54):
Yeah, but they think they're helping I think they
think they're helping by sayingnope, that's not it, this is it.
Speaker 3 (12:59):
This is the answer yep, ted, you shut me down on my
own podcast.
How dare dare you this is aterrible TED.
Speaker 4 (13:05):
Talk.
I know it was dangerous for mebecause I can see that your
partners on your podcast treatyou with such reverence and
respect that it's risky for meto do so Remember when I said I
want to have you back.
Speaker 3 (13:18):
I'm taking all that back.
Speaker 2 (13:21):
No, but it's two to one.
Ted, You're coming back becauseTony and I like you.
Speaker 4 (13:27):
So let's go to a different approach to that now.
Okay, andrew, you've told menow that the water came from
inside the glass.
That is a very interestingmodel that you have for
explaining this phenomenon.
But let's test that model outfor a second.
Here I happen to have a blockof steel that I had in the
refrigerator for a while.
Here I happen to have a blockof steel that I had in the
refrigerator for a while.
Is there any water inside ablock of steel?
(13:47):
No, so according to your modelof how things work, if I put
this block down next to theglass, should we get any water
droplets on the outside of theblock?
Speaker 3 (13:56):
Well, I guess, if there's no water inside the
steel, then no, we should notget water outside the block.
Speaker 4 (14:02):
So we go and we watch and, lo and behold, we get
droplets of water on the outsideof the block.
Andrew, what do we do inscience when we have new
evidence that doesn't match upwith our model?
Speaker 3 (14:14):
Well, we'd have to update our reasoning and maybe
our explanation.
Speaker 4 (14:18):
Gotcha, and so this is how I think of as phenomena,
as the little breadcrumbs thatwe can provide students to move
them from one understanding toanother, and how storylines in
many ways work out, that we aretrying to not tell students that
they're right or wrong.
We're giving students phenomenaand evidence for them to make
(14:39):
decisions about their models andto move more towards the
scientifically accurateunderstandings.
Speaker 1 (14:46):
I love all of that and I've been thinking about
this since we had you on last.
I've had this question for you.
You've mentioned creating anargument, carrying out
investigations, analyzing data,gathering evidence.
All I agree with you.
I love it all.
What advice would you have forteachers that are teaching these
belittles?
My K, my one, my twos?
How in the world do I getfive-year-olds that can barely
(15:08):
sit in their chairs to think inthis way, because I feel like
that can sometimes be dauntingif us meaning me, andrew Patrice
people that are trying to helpteachers learn this new style of
teaching, what can we do tohelp them and what advice would
you give to teachers juststarting out?
Speaker 4 (15:22):
I'll start with the aspect of those.
K-2 students are, in some ways,some of the best students in
this whole process.
They are the ones who arealways looking around the world
and asking questions andwondering really we want to get
into it.
I'll say as a former highschool teacher try to get 10th
graders willing to just kind ofthrow out guesses.
Our middle school students tryto throw out a guess that they
(15:44):
could be wrong about.
That's a sort of a differentchallenge here, or that I'm not
going to automatically tell astudent you're right or wrong.
I guarantee you teachers outthere, as you try to make this
shift, some of your students thestudents you think of as your
best students are going to pushback at you.
Your best students are verygood at playing the game of
school, as I've talked aboutlast time.
(16:05):
Yes, they are.
This new way of instructionwill upset them to begin with.
So the young kids are veryinterested in learning about
this, trying to get a sense ofthese things.
What teachers need to learn todo is not just here's the answer
.
Young teachers are also big onvocabulary.
Okay.
Speaker 1 (16:24):
Let me imagine for a second Young teachers are also
big on vocabulary.
Speaker 4 (16:25):
Okay, let me imagine for a second.
I have a ball in my hand.
Actually, I have a ball in myhand and I dropped that ball and
students ask why does that fall?
I could say gravity, okay, andthen students know to say
gravity.
I could just as easily saymagic.
I've not given students anythingthat's helpful, other than they
feel like they have an answernow but they don't really know
anything.
Yeah, they just know what tosay in that time and they don't
(16:46):
know what the word gravity means, other than it's what you say
when you're asked whethersomething will fall.
What if?
Instead of I said that, I saidwhy does it fall?
Well, actually the neat thingis that the earth pulls on it,
and when I hold it, I'm pushingup a little bit to keep the
earth from pulling down on it.
Or when they sit on a table,it's doing that, but if it rolls
off the table, it falls, andthe earth is always pulling on
it and we talk about that for acouple of days and then we
(17:08):
finally get to hey, I found outthat there's a term for this
pull of the earth on things.
It's called gravity, andteachers are very used to front
loading vocabulary, and I'm notan ELA instructor.
I'm not saying anythingnegative about that but in
science you can't give kids aterm if they don't have a
concept to hang it on to first,and so it's really important to
(17:28):
give kids the concept before yougive them the term.
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (17:33):
I've heard this before, but you just put it so
succinctly.
That was a really, really greatway to put it, and now I have a
great way to put it for mytraining on Monday, thank you.
Thank you, ted, appreciate itFantastic.
Speaker 2 (17:44):
All right, andrew, do we get to let Ted have the
final thought?
Speaker 1 (17:50):
I would love to let Ted do that, but Andrew's
definitely not.
Speaker 3 (17:52):
No, Ted embarrassed me.
How dare he on my show.
Speaker 4 (18:01):
I enjoyed every minute of it, so you have two
new students that are heavilyfocused on what you're saying.
I'll throw this last point here.
I talked about the students whoare had some difficulties, or
what students are going to reactto.
I want to honor teachers inwhere they're going to have a
difficulty.
Okay, I'm a former physicsteacher.
Teachers have, I guarantee you,been praised at different
points in their professionalexperiences for how good they
are at explaining things tostudents and they take pride in
(18:22):
that and I understand that pride.
What they need to understand isthat the research sort of shows
that that only really workswell with a small percentage of
their students.
Some students are able to takethat explanation and really
incorporate it into their mind.
What teachers need to do is toget their students to be good at
making explanations, andteachers can still make use of
that ability to explain becausethey know what goes into a good
(18:44):
explanation, so they can helpstudents build that ability
themselves.
So I don't want to discreditteachers about that, but it's
the aspect that they need tochange the way they do things to
better benefit their students,and that's, I know, a hard shift
to make, and I don't want toignore the fact that that's a
hard shift to make.
Speaker 2 (19:04):
Well, and we teach the way we were taught.
We've said this before a numberof times on the podcast, and
when we know better, we dobetter.
So hopefully that's part ofwhat we're doing here is helping
people to know better.
So I have complete faith in allof my colleagues.
The other thing, too, isthey're doing the best they can
in the moments that they are.
So I hear you.
I think that if we can evenjust make one small shift to let
kids notice and wonder and becurious for a little bit, I
(19:27):
think starting there for me ishelpful and then taking that
learning to transfer it intotheir explanations and their
writing would be great.
But if we can just even letkids be curious to start off
with would be great.
But if we can just even letkids be curious to start off
with would be great.
Speaker 4 (19:39):
This is not a shift that you're going to figure out
over one summer between schoolyears.
This takes years.
The best teachers I've seenacross the country, when you
talk about how great they are,say, oh, I've only just begun to
figure this all out.
There's so much more I can doand so much better I can do for
my students.
Speaker 1 (19:58):
I'm glad you said that.
I think that's going to be arelief to a lot of years.
Speaker 2 (20:01):
Yeah, I agree, yeah, thank you.
Speaker 3 (20:03):
And that's the spot that I actually want to lean
into, and you segwayed into myfinal thought for me.
Speaker 4 (20:08):
Thank you very much.
Speaker 3 (20:08):
Just like we communicated.
Ted good job seen the mostabout this work and about the
podcasts that we're on and thequestions that we ask.
There's so much more.
I have more questions becauseof this podcast than I did even
before I started, so it'sopening up and expanding and
saying wow, in an exciting way.
I'm not done learning, we'renot done knowing the information
(20:31):
that we know and there's moreout there that we can take in
and we can know.
The one thing that really stoodout to me as we talked is that
you know, stories can havedifferent chapters and what I
love about that, when I thinkabout it, is compared to
phenomenon, that withinphenomenon we have our anchoring
but then we have our supportingphenomenon, which is like those
different chapters.
So they could either bestandalone or they could be in
(20:52):
support of this larger storythat we're learning or that
we're being a part of, and as away to connect these students
into something bigger.
But then also give them kind ofthose small victories as you're
going along within this storywhere like, oh, okay, that's how
that works, so it comestogether and you start to see
where it's going or how it's allcoming together.
The one other thing that I wantto mention, that I thought was
really powerful and I appreciateyou sharing this, ted was that,
(21:14):
as educators, we can say nowithout actually having to say
no, and it was the I love yourbright cup analogy that we can
actually show them a differentway.
Speaker 2 (21:23):
Guide them.
Speaker 3 (21:25):
And what I meant with show was like you physically
like brought something out andbe like okay now tell me.
Yeah, so not show as in, likewe're the ones that have the
information.
Speaker 2 (21:32):
Sorry, I take back my interjection.
That's okay.
That's okay.
Speaker 3 (21:39):
Overruled.
Is that right?
I guess, yeah, but we canactually show them through
science, not through us beingthe ones that are disseminating
the information.
And that can actually be a wayof telling them no, but allowing
for going back to otherpodcasts, that aha moment to be
like oh right.
So then I've opened the windowfor this new possibility without
directly telling you no andshutting it down.
(21:59):
Instead you're like oh my gosh.
And now it's a solid learningand solid experience.
Speaker 4 (22:05):
And that's the way science is.
Scientists can't publish apaper and then go to the back of
the book and see if theiranswer was right.
They depend upon.
Do my explanations match theuniverse?
Speaker 3 (22:16):
I think it's really valuable for students to
understand that in how the worldworks, Ted, we always have a
competition on this podcast ofwho's going to get the last word
.
It's very hard with you, sir.
You're so knowledgeable and sogood at this.
Speaker 2 (22:28):
But you still can't let him do it.
Speaker 3 (22:30):
I know I can't.
I can't, it's a compulsion I'mgoing to hit.
Stop recording right now.
Speaker 2 (22:34):
It's a compulsion no Ted.
Speaker 3 (22:35):
No, why don't you sing us out, ted?
So thank you, that was awesome,by the way.
Yeah, thank you for coming onthe show.
Thank you for making yourselfvulnerable and bettering us as
educators and as good food formy brain?
Speaker 2 (22:48):
Yeah, very much.
Speaker 1 (22:48):
And showing up Andrew , yeah, thanks.
Speaker 2 (22:51):
I was always a win.
Speaker 4 (22:52):
Thank you, I love this stuff, so I love talking
about it and I am going to do itagain.
I'm sorry, none of the workthat my colleagues at NST here,
my colleagues at DiscoveryEducation, does matters without
the work that your listeners aredoing in their classroom with
their students, and so I reallywant to thank you all for making
my work matter.
Speaker 3 (23:13):
Ted Talk.
Speaker 4 (23:14):
No, yes, I get it.
Speaker 3 (23:17):
Don't forget to like and subscribe.
I'm going to stop.
Ted Talk.
Speaker 2 (23:21):
Stop.
Speaker 3 (23:23):
Thanks for I get it.
Don't forget to like andsubscribe.
I'm going to stop Ted talk.
Speaker 4 (23:27):
Stop.
Thanks for coming, Ted.
Thank you Thank you Ted.
Speaker 3 (23:33):
That was so awesome.
You're a wealth of information and wealth of
knowledge, but also so easy totalk to too?
Speaker 2 (00:04):
Absolutely.
Because there's people thatknow a lot but can't really talk
about it but can't verbalize it.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
Yeah, so this is Like down to my level.
Speaker 4 (00:10):
Unicorn Ted.
The advantage I've had is I'vebeen doing this essentially
nonstop for over a decade.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Right, so that helps.
Speaker 4 (00:19):
I've got some prepared material.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
What song do you want to sing?
Ted, We'll do.
Speaker 4 (00:24):
Queen.
It's based on we Are theChampions, but you'll see
there's some differences.
I'm excited.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
Get ready.
Speaker 3 (00:35):
Get ready.
Welcome back to Change Ed.
Changed.
Change Ed your number onepodcast in everywhere,
everywhere.
Is that your number one podcastin everywhere?
Speaker 2 (00:47):
Everywhere.
Speaker 3 (00:47):
Is that a?
Thing?
Speaker 2 (00:48):
Yeah, everywhere I think, everywhere is a, thing,
yeah, especially in my family.
Speaker 3 (00:52):
yeah, and especially in Discovery Education, we are
number one in DiscoveryEducation.
Their favorite podcast to tuneinto.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
Well, they're everywhere, so I guess that
works.
Speaker 3 (01:00):
Yeah, it's a simpatico relationship.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
Wow, big words.
Speaker 3 (01:05):
I am your host, Andrew Kuhn, education
consultant from MontgomeryCounty Intermediate Unit.
Speaker 4 (01:13):
And here with me is Ted Willard from Discovery
Education.
Yes, we are going to have a TEDTalk.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
That's what we're going to have.
Oh, TED Talk.
Speaker 3 (01:21):
Glad to have you back in the show, sir.
I also have two co-hosts herewith me.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
I am Patrice Semecek and I still work at the
Montgomery County IntermediateUnit and I have the same job
every time.
Speaker 3 (01:35):
All right.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
I want an acronym like Tony has SDF.
What is ours?
Speaker 3 (01:40):
EC.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
EC.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
Tony Tony Marabito, CLIU21iu 21 sdf.
Lots of letters there.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
Yes, yeah, it's just too long, it's too much every
episode, oh my gosh we are superfortunate to have back with us
for our ted talk today.
Speaker 3 (02:00):
ted willard, welcome back to the show.
Super glad to have you.
I hear that you have a uniqueway of connecting I'm going to
say different genres intolearning and we'd love to hear
what that is.
Speaker 4 (02:14):
This is a perfect example of how I am totally
willing to humiliate myself forthe sake of science education.
Speaker 2 (02:19):
I love it.
You are among good company,because we humiliate ourselves
daily.
Speaker 4 (02:24):
We've tried to teach time after time, taught lots of
lessons that we thought werefine, but we were mistaken.
Kids learn nothing new, butwith the framework of science
education, we now know what todo.
But with the framework ofscience education, we now know
(02:45):
what to do, and students willlearn on and on and on and on.
Teach three dimensions, myfriends, and we must integrate
them so that they blend.
Dun, dun, dun dun.
Teach three dimensions.
Teach three dimensions.
(03:06):
Teach three dimensions, notjust core ideas.
Teach all three dimensions, sothey learn.
Speaker 1 (03:18):
Yay.
Speaker 3 (03:20):
That was fantastic.
Speaker 1 (03:22):
Fantastic.
Speaker 3 (03:23):
I felt like I was like in my head.
I'm hearing Friday Mercury likebelting it out.
Speaker 2 (03:26):
It was great that was amazing.
Speaker 3 (03:26):
Fantastic.
I felt like I was like in myhead.
Speaker 1 (03:27):
I'm hearing Freddie Mercury like belting it out.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
It was great.
That was awesome From now on.
Speaker 1 (03:30):
Andrew might have to lead every podcast with that
song.
I think That'd be great.
Speaker 3 (03:34):
We'd lose all of our listeners if that were to happen
.
Speaker 2 (03:36):
We can isolate that audio so we can keep his song
and honestly, Ted you andFreddie Mercury very similar
appearance.
Speaker 3 (03:42):
It's hard to tell any difference.
Speaker 1 (03:44):
That's right.
Yeah, it was great Never seenhim in the same place at the
same time.
Oh, Tony, not a conspiracytheory.
Speaker 2 (03:51):
Come on yeah.
Speaker 3 (03:55):
Ted, I love how you actually recapped our last
podcast with you Seriously Inthis song.
I was like oh, we talked aboutthat.
We talked about that, we talkedabout that and how you kind of
encapsulated it.
And one of the things I loveabout that as well is that for
me, so many songs can tell astory and there's a story that
(04:17):
goes along with that.
See what I did there.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
I'm borderline impressed by what's happening
right now.
Speaker 3 (04:22):
And I feel borderline .
I appreciate that Almost acompliment.
You know, you know you'rebuilding up and then you kind of
get to that spot where you'relike, oh that, as we talked
about last time, that aha momentwhere it kind of shifts your
perspective and what you'reseeing, and then, and then the
story kind of kind of goes downand I'm wondering what
connection there might be therewith storylines, because we talk
(04:45):
a lot about storylines when itcomes to NGSS and specifically
Steeles and the power ofstorylines.
So I'm wondering if you cantalk a little bit about that.
Speaker 4 (04:54):
Students really have tremendous intellectual
resources that we as teachersfrequently don't pay attention
to or underestimate is maybe theway I would sort of say that to
or underestimate is maybe theway I would we'd sort of say
that and what we can frequentlydo when in traditionally in
instruction, what things we'vedone in some cases sometimes we
try to simplify and simplify andsimplify and make it easier and
(05:15):
easier and easier, and we're wedumb down or water down the
curriculum, and which doesn'treally sort of help much.
Another thing that we sometimesdo is we spend a lot of time on
saying well, to use a foodanalogy, if you eat your kind of
soggy vegetables, we'll giveyou a nice piece of chocolate
(05:36):
cake, or maybe we'll, maybewe'll give you a little, a
little treat.
You know, some really nice horsd'oeuvres at the beginning,
something fun to do, and thenwe'll do something really nice
at the end, but we're still justkind of giving you this mush in
the middle of the thing.
Speaker 3 (05:49):
You sound like an experienced parent there, Ted.
Speaker 4 (05:55):
I might have some experiences in that.
What the idea of a storyline isis the idea of let's make the
main course really delicious,let's make the vegetables
extremely tasty, let's givestudents a reason to do the
things we want them to do.
So again, this idea of studentshave the intellectual abilities
(06:15):
.
If you think about as a parent,if you have done this, or you
can probably as a teacher,you've probably had this with
your students Think about whenyour students have tried to
persuade you to do something,how powerful their ability to
engage in argumentation is.
You know, we think sometimeskids can't remember what they
(06:37):
did yesterday in class.
But let's face it, if you saidback in September that on the
last day of the semester beforethis winter break you would do
such and such thing, they willremember that Three months later
and tell you that Sure will,and remind you Okay.
So the point about this is thatwe need to find a way to have
(06:59):
kids actually care about whatthey are learning, and so how
can we do that?
And the idea of a storyline isreally focused on that.
The storyline starts with someinitial event, some phenomena
that you show students that theyare, and I think I said that
(07:19):
some of this last time.
But this idea of that I'mcurious about that.
I care about understanding that.
I know what's happening there,but I don't know why it's
happening.
But I want to know why.
And so taking that and thenbringing that forward in terms
of, well, now I want tounderstand that I have questions
(07:40):
about that, and so we can listout questions that students have
that students care about, andthen our whole instruction is
about answering those questions.
Well, how do you answerquestions in science?
You gather evidence.
How do you go about gatheringevidence?
(08:02):
Well, one way to do it is thatyou go and you carry out an
investigation, and we have to gothrough that process.
Another way you can getevidence is actually to obtain
and evaluate information, and ineither of those things then
you're ultimately analyzing datain some fashion or another and
you're ultimately then trying toconstruct an explanation or
develop a model of thatphenomenon that you have engaged
(08:23):
with.
So that's the basics of this.
The thing that's really amazingand sort of a paradox in the
idea of storylines is everythingI just described there sounds,
and is meant to be, verystudent-centered.
That we said the students haveasked the questions, the
students get to decide how theygo about answering those
questions, what activities theydo.
Throughout this process, theyare leading it.
(08:45):
However, in a reallywell-designed curriculum, I, as
the teacher, I as the curriculumdesigner, have stacked the deck
in such a way that I know whatquestions the students are going
to ask and so I know what I'mgoing to have the students do
throughout that whole learningprocess.
I've sequenced things in such away that, oh, at the end of
(09:05):
this particular investigation,they've figured these certain
things out, but oh, they havesome other questions.
Well, guess what?
That's what we're going to workon tomorrow, and I have
actually a planned sequence forthis.
It's not just kids going allover the place wherever they
want to, it's that things havebeen sequenced in such a way
that every day's activities leadstudents along the way.
(09:28):
The term I like to use aroundthis is that I have, as a
teacher, set up breadcrumbs forthe student to guide them
through the forest, and I bringthis up as the same point I said
.
So I bring up for a physicsteacher and teaching Newton's
laws.
Newton apparently took about adecade to come together with his
laws and, from what Iunderstand, he was a pretty
smart guy.
(09:48):
I had some good students, but Idon't know if I had any Isaac
Newtons in my classroom, and wedon't have 10 years to figure
out Newton's three laws.
So I need to set things up insuch a way that takes them
through the process of where Iwant them to go in some ways
here.
Let me give you a littleexample about that and try to
(10:10):
play out.
Let's imagine for a second Ihave a glass of water sitting on
the table around all of us, andwe noticed a glass of water
sitting on the table with aroundall of us and we noticed there
are some water droplets on theoutside of that.
And those water droplets I wantto know where did those water
droplets come from?
What do the three of you thinkwould be a common answer for my
students about where those waterdroplets came from At a high
(10:31):
school level, at any grade level?
What do you think if I asked awaiter in a restaurant where did
those droplets come from?
Speaker 1 (10:37):
Condensation, evaporation, something along
those lines.
Speaker 4 (10:41):
I think Tony is way more scientifically focused than
any of you.
Speaker 2 (10:47):
All those years of being a waiter.
Speaker 4 (10:49):
That I don't know if I know about right now, I'm just
, you know, I'm just.
Speaker 2 (10:52):
I was going to say it's the water on the outside.
It has a different temperaturethan the water on the inside,
and so it's forming.
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (11:02):
So let me, let me sweating.
It's hot, it's sweating, yeahit's andrew.
Speaker 4 (11:06):
You are the.
Speaker 2 (11:07):
You are the you're the typical high school student
whoa wait, wait.
I was about typical I'm overhere trying to celebrate, but I
got it right.
Speaker 4 (11:21):
No, I want to.
No, I really want to play withthis.
A lot of people will say thiswater came from inside the glass
.
Okay, and I want to stop for amoment and have you think about
how good that answer is.
A student that tells me thatthe water on the outside of the
glass came from the inside ofthe glass knows that it had to
come from someplace, so theyneed a source of water.
There's water sitting rightthere in the glass, and so I can
(11:43):
say we have that water thatcould be the source of it.
That is an entirely reasonablemodel, given the evidence, that
is, is it scientificallyaccurate?
No, it is not.
That is not the ultimateexplanation, but that is an
extremely reasonable model.
Now, andrew is my chosenstudent here, and because I
think you've just got exactlythe right type of personality
for me to use this a second.
I wanted to play out twodifferent scenarios for me as a
(12:07):
teacher to deal with Andrew'swhat I just described as his
reasonable explanations.
Speaker 2 (12:12):
I can't wait for this acting.
Speaker 4 (12:14):
Okay, andrew, where did the water come from?
He just told you inside, insideexample, one that's wrong
that's wrong water.
Actually that's wrong.
It's air around the glass andit and the glass is cool, so the
(12:36):
water that's in the aircondenses on it.
So let me point out for you,okay, in what I've learned here.
The research and scienceeducation says that that is not
the best way to deal with astudent who provides that
explanation I can imagine I'dfeel very shut down I wouldn't.
Speaker 1 (12:52):
I feel that way.
Just give you the right answer.
Speaker 2 (12:54):
Yeah, but they think they're helping I think they
think they're helping by sayingnope, that's not it, this is it.
Speaker 3 (12:59):
This is the answer yep, ted, you shut me down on my
own podcast.
How dare dare you this is aterrible TED.
Speaker 4 (13:05):
Talk.
I know it was dangerous for mebecause I can see that your
partners on your podcast treatyou with such reverence and
respect that it's risky for meto do so Remember when I said I
want to have you back.
Speaker 3 (13:18):
I'm taking all that back.
Speaker 2 (13:21):
No, but it's two to one.
Ted, You're coming back becauseTony and I like you.
Speaker 4 (13:27):
So let's go to a different approach to that now.
Okay, andrew, you've told menow that the water came from
inside the glass.
That is a very interestingmodel that you have for
explaining this phenomenon.
But let's test that model outfor a second.
Here I happen to have a blockof steel that I had in the
refrigerator for a while.
Here I happen to have a blockof steel that I had in the
refrigerator for a while.
Is there any water inside ablock of steel?
(13:47):
No, so according to your modelof how things work, if I put
this block down next to theglass, should we get any water
droplets on the outside of theblock?
Speaker 3 (13:56):
Well, I guess, if there's no water inside the
steel, then no, we should notget water outside the block.
Speaker 4 (14:02):
So we go and we watch and, lo and behold, we get
droplets of water on the outsideof the block.
Andrew, what do we do inscience when we have new
evidence that doesn't match upwith our model?
Speaker 3 (14:14):
Well, we'd have to update our reasoning and maybe
our explanation.
Speaker 4 (14:18):
Gotcha, and so this is how I think of as phenomena,
as the little breadcrumbs thatwe can provide students to move
them from one understanding toanother, and how storylines in
many ways work out, that we aretrying to not tell students that
they're right or wrong.
We're giving students phenomenaand evidence for them to make
(14:39):
decisions about their models andto move more towards the
scientifically accurateunderstandings.
Speaker 1 (14:46):
I love all of that and I've been thinking about
this since we had you on last.
I've had this question for you.
You've mentioned creating anargument, carrying out
investigations, analyzing data,gathering evidence.
All I agree with you.
I love it all.
What advice would you have forteachers that are teaching these
belittles?
My K, my one, my twos?
How in the world do I getfive-year-olds that can barely
(15:08):
sit in their chairs to think inthis way, because I feel like
that can sometimes be dauntingif us meaning me, andrew Patrice
people that are trying to helpteachers learn this new style of
teaching, what can we do tohelp them and what advice would
you give to teachers juststarting out?
Speaker 4 (15:22):
I'll start with the aspect of those.
K-2 students are, in some ways,some of the best students in
this whole process.
They are the ones who arealways looking around the world
and asking questions andwondering really we want to get
into it.
I'll say as a former highschool teacher try to get 10th
graders willing to just kind ofthrow out guesses.
Our middle school students tryto throw out a guess that they
(15:44):
could be wrong about.
That's a sort of a differentchallenge here, or that I'm not
going to automatically tell astudent you're right or wrong.
I guarantee you teachers outthere, as you try to make this
shift, some of your students thestudents you think of as your
best students are going to pushback at you.
Your best students are verygood at playing the game of
school, as I've talked aboutlast time.
(16:05):
Yes, they are.
This new way of instructionwill upset them to begin with.
So the young kids are veryinterested in learning about
this, trying to get a sense ofthese things.
What teachers need to learn todo is not just here's the answer
.
Young teachers are also big onvocabulary.
Okay.
Speaker 1 (16:24):
Let me imagine for a second Young teachers are also
big on vocabulary.
Speaker 4 (16:25):
Okay, let me imagine for a second.
I have a ball in my hand.
Actually, I have a ball in myhand and I dropped that ball and
students ask why does that fall?
I could say gravity, okay, andthen students know to say
gravity.
I could just as easily saymagic.
I've not given students anythingthat's helpful, other than they
feel like they have an answernow but they don't really know
anything.
Yeah, they just know what tosay in that time and they don't
(16:46):
know what the word gravity means, other than it's what you say
when you're asked whethersomething will fall.
What if?
Instead of I said that, I saidwhy does it fall?
Well, actually the neat thingis that the earth pulls on it,
and when I hold it, I'm pushingup a little bit to keep the
earth from pulling down on it.
Or when they sit on a table,it's doing that, but if it rolls
off the table, it falls, andthe earth is always pulling on
it and we talk about that for acouple of days and then we
(17:08):
finally get to hey, I found outthat there's a term for this
pull of the earth on things.
It's called gravity, andteachers are very used to front
loading vocabulary, and I'm notan ELA instructor.
I'm not saying anythingnegative about that but in
science you can't give kids aterm if they don't have a
concept to hang it on to first,and so it's really important to
(17:28):
give kids the concept before yougive them the term.
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (17:33):
I've heard this before, but you just put it so
succinctly.
That was a really, really greatway to put it, and now I have a
great way to put it for mytraining on Monday, thank you.
Thank you, ted, appreciate itFantastic.
Speaker 2 (17:44):
All right, andrew, do we get to let Ted have the
final thought?
Speaker 1 (17:50):
I would love to let Ted do that, but Andrew's
definitely not.
Speaker 3 (17:52):
No, Ted embarrassed me.
How dare he on my show.
Speaker 4 (18:01):
I enjoyed every minute of it, so you have two
new students that are heavilyfocused on what you're saying.
I'll throw this last point here.
I talked about the students whoare had some difficulties, or
what students are going to reactto.
I want to honor teachers inwhere they're going to have a
difficulty.
Okay, I'm a former physicsteacher.
Teachers have, I guarantee you,been praised at different
points in their professionalexperiences for how good they
are at explaining things tostudents and they take pride in
(18:22):
that and I understand that pride.
What they need to understand isthat the research sort of shows
that that only really workswell with a small percentage of
their students.
Some students are able to takethat explanation and really
incorporate it into their mind.
What teachers need to do is toget their students to be good at
making explanations, andteachers can still make use of
that ability to explain becausethey know what goes into a good
(18:44):
explanation, so they can helpstudents build that ability
themselves.
So I don't want to discreditteachers about that, but it's
the aspect that they need tochange the way they do things to
better benefit their students,and that's, I know, a hard shift
to make, and I don't want toignore the fact that that's a
hard shift to make.
Speaker 2 (19:04):
Well, and we teach the way we were taught.
We've said this before a numberof times on the podcast, and
when we know better, we dobetter.
So hopefully that's part ofwhat we're doing here is helping
people to know better.
So I have complete faith in allof my colleagues.
The other thing, too, isthey're doing the best they can
in the moments that they are.
So I hear you.
I think that if we can evenjust make one small shift to let
kids notice and wonder and becurious for a little bit, I
(19:27):
think starting there for me ishelpful and then taking that
learning to transfer it intotheir explanations and their
writing would be great.
But if we can just even letkids be curious to start off
with would be great.
But if we can just even letkids be curious to start off
with would be great.
Speaker 4 (19:39):
This is not a shift that you're going to figure out
over one summer between schoolyears.
This takes years.
The best teachers I've seenacross the country, when you
talk about how great they are,say, oh, I've only just begun to
figure this all out.
There's so much more I can doand so much better I can do for
my students.
Speaker 1 (19:58):
I'm glad you said that.
I think that's going to be arelief to a lot of years.
Speaker 2 (20:01):
Yeah, I agree, yeah, thank you.
Speaker 3 (20:03):
And that's the spot that I actually want to lean
into, and you segwayed into myfinal thought for me.
Speaker 4 (20:08):
Thank you very much.
Speaker 3 (20:08):
Just like we communicated.
Ted good job seen the mostabout this work and about the
podcasts that we're on and thequestions that we ask.
There's so much more.
I have more questions becauseof this podcast than I did even
before I started, so it'sopening up and expanding and
saying wow, in an exciting way.
I'm not done learning, we'renot done knowing the information
(20:31):
that we know and there's moreout there that we can take in
and we can know.
The one thing that really stoodout to me as we talked is that
you know, stories can havedifferent chapters and what I
love about that, when I thinkabout it, is compared to
phenomenon, that withinphenomenon we have our anchoring
but then we have our supportingphenomenon, which is like those
different chapters.
So they could either bestandalone or they could be in
(20:52):
support of this larger storythat we're learning or that
we're being a part of, and as away to connect these students
into something bigger.
But then also give them kind ofthose small victories as you're
going along within this storywhere like, oh, okay, that's how
that works, so it comestogether and you start to see
where it's going or how it's allcoming together.
The one other thing that I wantto mention, that I thought was
really powerful and I appreciateyou sharing this, ted was that,
(21:14):
as educators, we can say nowithout actually having to say
no, and it was the I love yourbright cup analogy that we can
actually show them a differentway.
Speaker 2 (21:23):
Guide them.
Speaker 3 (21:25):
And what I meant with show was like you physically
like brought something out andbe like okay now tell me.
Yeah, so not show as in, likewe're the ones that have the
information.
Speaker 2 (21:32):
Sorry, I take back my interjection.
That's okay.
That's okay.
Speaker 3 (21:39):
Overruled.
Is that right?
I guess, yeah, but we canactually show them through
science, not through us beingthe ones that are disseminating
the information.
And that can actually be a wayof telling them no, but allowing
for going back to otherpodcasts, that aha moment to be
like oh right.
So then I've opened the windowfor this new possibility without
directly telling you no andshutting it down.
(21:59):
Instead you're like oh my gosh.
And now it's a solid learningand solid experience.
Speaker 4 (22:05):
And that's the way science is.
Scientists can't publish apaper and then go to the back of
the book and see if theiranswer was right.
They depend upon.
Do my explanations match theuniverse?
Speaker 3 (22:16):
I think it's really valuable for students to
understand that in how the worldworks, Ted, we always have a
competition on this podcast ofwho's going to get the last word
.
It's very hard with you, sir.
You're so knowledgeable and sogood at this.
Speaker 2 (22:28):
But you still can't let him do it.
Speaker 3 (22:30):
I know I can't.
I can't, it's a compulsion I'mgoing to hit.
Stop recording right now.
Speaker 2 (22:34):
It's a compulsion no Ted.
Speaker 3 (22:35):
No, why don't you sing us out, ted?
So thank you, that was awesome,by the way.
Yeah, thank you for coming onthe show.
Thank you for making yourselfvulnerable and bettering us as
educators and as good food formy brain?
Speaker 2 (22:48):
Yeah, very much.
Speaker 1 (22:48):
And showing up Andrew , yeah, thanks.
Speaker 2 (22:51):
I was always a win.
Speaker 4 (22:52):
Thank you, I love this stuff, so I love talking
about it and I am going to do itagain.
I'm sorry, none of the workthat my colleagues at NST here,
my colleagues at DiscoveryEducation, does matters without
the work that your listeners aredoing in their classroom with
their students, and so I reallywant to thank you all for making
my work matter.
Speaker 3 (23:13):
Ted Talk.
Speaker 4 (23:14):
No, yes, I get it.
Speaker 3 (23:17):
Don't forget to like and subscribe.
I'm going to stop.
Ted Talk.
Speaker 2 (23:21):
Stop.
Speaker 3 (23:23):
Thanks for I get it.
Don't forget to like andsubscribe.
I'm going to stop Ted talk.
Speaker 4 (23:27):
Stop.
Thanks for coming, Ted.
Thank you Thank you Ted.
Speaker 3 (23:33):
That was so awesome.
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