Accessible Workplaces: Is the Canadian Nonprofit Sector Falling Behind?

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:06):
Welcome to Charity Village Connects.
I'm your host, Mary Barrell.
That's the sound of a hummingbird pollinating our world and making it a better place.
The hummingbird is Charity Village's logo because we strive, like the industrioushummingbird, to make connections across the nonprofit sector and help make positive

(00:30):
change.
Over this series of podcasts, we'll explore topics that are vital to the nonprofit sectorin Canada.
Topics like diversity, equity and inclusion, mental health in the workplace.
the gap in female representation and leadership, and many other subjects crucial to thesector.
We'll offer insight that will help you make sense of your life as a nonprofitprofessional, make connections to help navigate challenges, and support your organization

(00:59):
to deliver on its mission.
A nation's grief tonight following a horrific bus crash involving the Humboldt Broncos, ajunior hockey team from Saskatchewan.
15 people were killed and more than a dozen others injured when the bus was t-boned lastnight by a transport truck.

(01:20):
scream from the front of the bus.
I peeked my head down the aisle and he's looking to his right and instantly just a bigcrash.
It was black and I don't remember much.
I don't remember how long I was out for but I remember kind of opening my eyes looking atall the mayhem in front of me and my first instinct was just to get up and I go to move
and I'm stuck under something.

(01:40):
I go to move again, still stuck, so I look down on my legs to move whatever it is that'sholding me down and I look and there's nothing there.
My legs are just in front of me.
It was 2018 when a semi-trailer blew through a stop sign and into the Humboldt Broncos'team's bus, killing 16 people and injuring 13.

(02:01):
Among the injured was Ryan Straznitsky, who at the age of 18 was paralyzed from the chestdown.
Though Ryan became disabled, he never stopped embodying the saying once coined by hisformer hockey coach, there's strong and then there's Straz strong.
Becoming a disability advocate, Ryan created the Straz Strong Foundation with its missionto provide access to adaptive sports rehab and physiotherapy and to spread education about

(02:33):
mental and physical disabilities in the hopes of inspiring us all to work together onimproving quality of life for people with disabilities.
Ryan tells us how the Straz Strong Foundation got started.
After my accident in 2018, I was in the hospital and
My former trainer, started this non-for-profit called StrasStrong and he raised funds formy rehabilitation needs moving forward.

(02:58):
And I remember it was sitting in a bank account during the pandemic and wasn't reallybeing used for anything.
And so I decided I wanted to give back to the community.
They gave so much to me during my time in the hospital and even to this day.
So I knew that I wanted to take that money in that account, turn it into something goodand give back to the community to remove some barriers for people with disabilities.
So I decided to...

(03:19):
to take up the non-for-profit and start doing what I could every day to bring moreawareness around the non-for-profit and hopefully, you know, expand it into something
more.
And since then, I've turned it into a charity organization so we're able to become moreprominent within our area of Calgary and Alberta and hopefully can make some changes in
the future.
And there are a whole lot of changes needed, including when it comes to workplaces andemployment.

(03:44):
According to the 2022 Canadian Survey on Disability,
The employment rate for persons with disabilities currently sits at 62%.
While this figure has risen in recent years, up from 59 % in the 2017 survey, it's clearthat a lot more work can be done to create more inclusive and accessible workplaces that

(04:07):
welcome Canadians with disabilities.
In this episode of Charity Village Connects, we talk to accessibility experts from acrossthe sector
to find out about the challenges and barriers that contribute to this employment gap,along with what non-profit organizations like yours can do to address these barriers
within its workplace, programming, and the communities it serves.

(04:31):
The gap for people with disabilities is really disheartening.
It's really a drop in the bucket.
$500 is all it takes for 90 % of accommodations all across Ontario and Canada.
to employ a person with a disability.
And for some reason, it just seems like there's a lot of stereotypes and stigmas behindthe attitudes and perceptions of hiring a person with a disability.

(04:55):
And that's something that really needs to be looked at more intensely.
Overall, we are way behind where we should be.
We are way behind where the Americans are.
So when you cross the border from Canada to the US, you also go through a time machine.
in the sense of going to the States is going to the future, coming to Canada is like goingto the past.

(05:19):
And it's embarrassing, it's wrong.
The first thing is to understand who is not within your organization.
Who are we missing?
So first of all, are we being intentional in reaching out to the disability community andmaking it very intentional that we want to hire from them?

(05:40):
The other thing is to review.
How are you communicating that intentionality?
Are your job postings accessible?
Are they being provided in a number of ways?
I'd to point out to employers and others that PwDs, people with disabilities, PwDs havecreativity, determination, problem solving, reliability, they have resilience, they have

(06:08):
time management.
Because we have extra things we need to do in our day that people who do not live withdisability do not even have to think about.
If you are a wheelchair user, you need to consider how am I going to get to a location?
have to book Wheel Trance.
Is the subway station accessible?

(06:29):
All of these things will have to troubleshoot.
And those things are all taking creativity to manage your time.
Those are all things that make you a very worthy employee.
There was a statistic that said people with disabilities are some of the most loyal,hardworking people and are people you need within your force, right?
And if you're going to unknowingly discourage someone from entering the building to beginwith, then you're probably not doing the right thing.

(06:53):
So it's important to make those changes first, then the results will show.
If we can't even get through the door, that's why I highlight job postings.
and communications about your workplace.
If we can't even get an interview, if we don't even get a callback, then for us it'ssecondary if there's all kinds of programs and efforts in the workplace around IDE and DEI

(07:19):
because we can't even get in.
And then even if we do secure employment, often we're isolated and excluded in theworkplace.
And so the barriers do not end once we secure a job.
it's really time to change our thinking.

(07:40):
New numbers from your office show the disability benefit will only impact 25,000 Canadianswhen your government promised it would lift hundreds of thousands.
What is your message to advocates who say that you have broken your promise on that?
Though many promises have been made by governments and various public institutions overthe years,
Numerous studies indicate that, in fact, little progress has been made to ensure Canadianswith disabilities truly have access to full participation in society, including when it

(08:10):
comes to employment.
According to the Government of Canada's Understanding Disability and Employment Report,only 62 % of Canadians with disabilities aged 25 to 64 have jobs, compared to 78 % of
Canadians without disabilities.
Persons with disabilities who are working often have lower paying jobs that have lessstability, fewer benefits, and limited chances for career growth.

(08:38):
2021 Canadian Income Survey showed that more than 10.6 % of Canadians with disabilitieslive below the poverty line, compared to 7.4 % of the total population.
According to Statistics Canada, people with a disability face a higher risk of poverty.
More than 12 % of people with a disability age 15 years or older live below the povertyline in 2022.

(09:03):
That's up from 10.6 % in 2021, but still below pre-pandemic levels.
Canadians with a disability represent a growing share of the population.
According to a 2022 Canadian survey on disability, 27 % of Canadians, or 8 million people,had one or more disabilities, a 5 percentage points increase compared with 2017.

(09:26):
A substantial number of Canadians are underemployed or not employed at all due to livingwith some form of disability.
And in fact, the reality may be even worse than what these studies report, depending onexactly which disabilities are being considered.
Ingrid Mushta is a licensed professional engineer who works with ODIN, the OntarioDisability Employment Network.

(09:54):
as Director of Special Projects and Innovation, delivering disability awareness andconfidence training.
She adds some nuance to the numbers.
For people who have developmental and intellectual disabilities or who are on the autismspectrum disorder, their employment rates is even lower.
Inclusive Canada noted that one in four adults who have a developmental disability areemployed.

(10:20):
That is an extraordinary low number.
for employment rates in that population.
And it is not that those people are not capable of doing work.
They're very, very capable of doing systematic, consistent, predictable work and work thatis often quite needed.
Wanda Deschamps is the founder of Liberty Co., a consultancy focused on increasingneurodiverse employment.

(10:46):
She shares the employment statistics for the neurodiverse.
The majority of the neurodiverse population is either unemployed or underemployed.
Actually, the unemployment rate of autistics can be as high as 80%.
So if we turn that, the employment rate of autistics can be as low as around 20%,depending on which study you're looking at and circumstances and so on.

(11:10):
We're leaving out a really large segment of the population if we're not considering.
accessibility for neurodivergent and disabled individuals.
We've made progress in terms of DEI and IDE.
So many organizations still don't add that A for accessibility when they're developingprograms, strategies, and plans.

(11:30):
Add that A.
Wanda Desham's approach is centered on the IDEA framework, an acronym for inclusion,diversity, equity, and accessibility.
Along with several of our guests for this episode, she holds the view that the A foraccessibility is a crucial missing part of the ongoing conversation on how to move towards

(11:55):
a more inclusive society.
Lauren McDonald, a human rights lawyer and accessibility advocate born with profoundhearing loss and currently teaching disability law at the TMU School of Law, expresses it
this way.
A lot of talk since COVID started is about diversity, equity, inclusion, but what isalways missing in my experience is the aim for accessibility.

(12:27):
So a lot of focus on other marginalized groups, but people with disabilities are often notincluded in that conversation.
So that conveys the message that employees with disabilities are not a priority.
Anthony Frisina works at Mohawk College and McMaster University.

(12:47):
Born with spina bifida and navigating the world in a wheelchair, Anthony is a sought afterpublic speaker, author, and consultant who specializes in bridging the gap to
accessibility and inclusion.
And who's been producing and hosting Above and Beyond TV for five seasons.
He has this to say about why accessibility needs to be its own pillar in the equity,diversity, and inclusion discussion.

(13:13):
I've always transitioned from seeing the equity, diversity, and inclusion placemat indifferent types of workplaces to where is accessibility in that?
It's typically hidden under the equity pillar.
Let's give it its own pillar, transpose the letters to inclusion, diversity, equity, andaccessibility, giving that individual that idea.

(13:35):
behind looking at accessibility and inclusion from whether it be hiring people withdisabilities, making your workspace, if it's bricks and mortar, more accessible and
inclusive for shoppers of all abilities to be able to access things equitably, making youronline presence more accessible, making your visibility more accessible, and just giving

(13:55):
that showmanship that you'll actually care about the community at large in a space whereyou're including everybody of all abilities.
How can organizations prioritize A for accessibility and create spaces that includeeverybody of all abilities?
In order to reach this ideal, our experts say we need, first of all, to recognize theableist attitudes that pervade most environments.

(14:25):
Lauren MacDonald breaks it down.
So what is ableism?
Ableism is discrimination and prejudice or
social prejudice against people with disabilities based on the belief that typicalnon-disabled people, their abilities are superior.

(14:48):
And this manifests in a number of ways.
It manifests in attitudes that show up in policy and practices that serve to devalue orlimit the potential rights and experiences.
of employees with disabilities and people with disabilities in a broad sense.

(15:10):
And it often assumes that people with disabilities are less capable, less productive, lessworthy of the same opportunities as non-disabled people.
And this, of course, creates unnecessary barriers to the full participation in society.

(15:31):
Accessibility experts say that in many cases, an organization's practices and policies notonly perpetuate ableist assumptions, they can also sometimes act in a punitive fashion.
Laura MacDonald explains.

(16:01):
see it, can you believe it, and can you respect the individual who making the request.
Ableism also has a punitive nature to it in that if employers don't understanddisability-related needs, they may penalize employees for taking time off for medical

(16:24):
appointments or disability-related absences and
The employer may create an environment whereby the employee feels pressure to disclosetheir disability, even when they don't want to, in order to get the necessary
accommodations or understanding.

(16:46):
And if that safe space isn't there, that is very problematic and employees typically don'tend up staying.
where they're constantly feeling under attack in subtle and not so subtle ways.
Anthony Frisina emphasizes that it's important to remember that disability can take manydifferent forms, some more obvious than others.

(17:13):
Disability comes in different forms, for example, know, mine's a physical disability, youknow, there's hearing disabilities, there's sight disabilities, being aware of light
sensitivities.
being aware of sound sensitivities, being aware of things that might cause sensoryoverloads, like distractions or too many people in an area, or things of that nature to

(17:38):
ease the abilities of those individuals to shine.
There's invisible versus visible disabilities, and it's the opportunity for disclosure.
My disability being visible, once they see me in an interview, for example, I thinkthere's a lot of concern.
versus the reality of what disability looks like.

(17:59):
A recent high-profile example of the failure to prioritize accessibility came to light inMarch 2023, with the completion of the new downtown Toronto Courthouse, meant to
consolidate provincial court services.
David Lepofsky, chair of the Accessibility for Ontarians with Disabilities Act Alliance,made a YouTube video called Billion Dollar Accessibility Bungle.

(18:26):
in reference to the $956 million spent on the courthouse building, and in which he detailsall the ways in which the courthouse appears to violate accessibility rules.
Let me show you a billion dollar accessibility bungle.
The new downtown Toronto Armoury Street Courthouse.

(18:47):
Important accessibility features are missing or botched.
This is despite our warnings about serious accessibility problems for years before thecourt was built.
Who made all these poor design decisions ignoring accessibility advice?
David Lepofsky tells us about the making of this video.

(19:08):
We made public a video that documents that a brand new mega courthouse right in the heartof downtown Toronto that cost the public almost a billion dollars.
is in fact a billion dollar accessibility bungle.
And this video documents all the things they screwed up and if people are immediatelymight think, well, I guess it would have cost more to do it right.

(19:31):
No, we identified barriers which if they had taken accessibility into account at thedesign stage the way they should have, most of the barriers wouldn't have cost anything to
fix or prevent.
Among the problems detailed both by David Leposki in his video and a 76-page report byGensler, Architecture and Design were incorrectly installed tactile surface indicators, or

(19:55):
wayfinding systems for the blind, a lack of intuitive exits from the building to the wheeltrans waiting area, seating areas in the courtrooms which were not easily identified or
which might obstruct white canes, ticketing and number system for services that isinaccessible to those who are blind or have low vision,
A layout which doesn't provide a natural path to the washroom, insufficient accessibleparking, and an atrium with multi-floor windows producing glare and echoing acoustics,

(20:23):
which are problems for those who are blind, deaf, have low vision, or who are hard ofhearing.
For a building that's intended to be a site for public legal proceedings and the carryingout of justice, this obvious failure to ensure accessibility for all citizens
speaks volumes about the general lack of societal concern for creating accessible andinclusive spaces that welcome all Canadians.

(20:52):
And it creates new systemic barriers for all citizens to even participate in the justicesystem.
Ryan Strasnitsky, who has studied accessible building designs,
speaks to the ethical implications of allowing these barriers to persist.
If you know that a building is accessible, you know that it's easy to access.
It starts from the parking lot, right?

(21:13):
Accessing the parking lot from there, getting into the building and accessing all parts.
If someone knows that it's not accessible or it's a bit of a hassle, that might hold themback from actually even getting there in the first place, right?
And that could prevent someone to want to get involved.
If you're going to unknowingly discourage someone from entering the building to beginwith, then you're probably not doing the right things.
Expensive, newly built public buildings are not the only problem.

(21:38):
In fact, many workplaces limit the employment of people with disabilities due to a lack ofaccessibility or accommodation.
A 2019 Canadian Human Rights Commission study reports that at the national level, morethan 30 % of persons with disabilities report that their disability makes it difficult for

(21:59):
them to change jobs or advance in their careers.
And across Canada, nearly 30 % of persons with disabilities report having asked forworkplace accommodation that was not made available.
At least 40 % of persons with disabilities report feeling that their employer considersthem disadvantaged because of their disability.

(22:20):
Non-profit leaders and HR managers can learn a lot from what David Lepofsky has to sayabout identifying existing barriers in the workplace and how to remove them.
He also makes the important distinction between reoccurring barriers and one-offexperiences brought forward by individuals.
So the workplace needs to have two things.

(22:43):
If you're listening to this, going, what do I do?
You say, number one, you want to put in place that commitment to achieve a barrier-freeworkplace, to develop a plan and put someone in charge.
That's to address the recurring barriers.
More on those in a minute.
But the second thing you need is an effective strategy so that if an employee needs aworkplace accommodation.
so that you've got a process that's non-bureaucratic, swift, and effective.

(23:07):
Some places are great at it.
Some places just make it a ton of paperwork and attitude and stuff like that.
In my experience, and those of others I've talked to, when a workplace wants toaccommodate, they can usually figure it out.
If they don't want to accommodate it, they can spend a whole lot of creativity coming upwith reasons why they kind of say no.

(23:33):
Now on recurring accommodations, there's the built environment.
So there's where you located.
Did you locate your office in a venue?
And is the building itself disability accessible?
Now you can't just rely on building codes.
building can be fully building code compliant and yet seriously flawed when it comes todisability accessibility.

(23:57):
If you're doing a new office space, you should engage a disability accessibilityconsultant, a qualified one, to give you advice on what to do to maximize accessibility in
your office.
Because I can't expect you to know all this stuff.
Lauren McDonald details some of the other workplace barriers employers should become moreaware of.

(24:18):
First, you have your physical barrier, such as an inaccessible entrance to the workplace.
Are your workstations accessible for people who may be real-terra users and are notphysically able to use the workstation that is in place?
Or maybe they have ergonomic accommodations that they need a special chair or what haveyou?

(24:44):
And there can be inadequate accommodations in common areas such as how is the accessibleparking?
Is the meeting space accessible?
What about the washroom?
is an accessible washroom for someone who may need it.
And then of course there are the technological barriers, whereas there may be a desire touse software and digital tools and technologies to be productive in the workplace.

(25:12):
But those tools may lack compatibility with screen readers for those who have low vision,your website.
may be inaccessible or the internal platform you use in the workplace may not beaccessible.
The virtual meeting tool, such as the platform that we are using, that does not allow forthe incorporation of captioning.

(25:41):
When it comes to maximizing accessibility, there is, in fact, a lot to know and toconsider.
Employers need to think beyond the ramp.
moving past the narrow focus on physical access alone, like ramps and elevators, andrecognize the broader, more nuanced needs of people with less apparent disabilities.

(26:02):
Ingrid Mushta explains.
Time and time again, when most people think of a disability, the image of a ramp is oftenwhat comes to mind.
You know, that accessibility through a ramp.
But the reality is that a large number of disabilities are invisible.
And what's keeping a lot of those people out of the workforce are myths and misconceptionof what the talent that we can find in the disability community is like.

(26:30):
Thinking beyond the ramp includes the important realization that the first step toremoving barriers that stop employees with disabilities from participating fully in a
workplace is working on changing attitudes.
Wanted to Sham has this to say.
If you look at biases, accessibility barriers, you know, the number one barrier isattitudinal.

(26:56):
So if you go right back to what does neurodiversity mean and what can this meanspecifically for neurodivergent individuals, we come across differently and there's a bias
and frankly there's a stigma that different is bad.
Because we interact differently, because we process information differently, because wecome across differently, there's a stigma.

(27:18):
that this is a bad thing.
So that's a huge barrier right there, these biases against us.
I think it's important for workplaces to realize that neurodiversity actually can lead toinnovation.
Because we do think differently, process information differently, feel things differently,we can approach problem solving coming from different ways.

(27:41):
Not only do employers have unexamined biases against people with visible or invisibledisabilities,
These biases are also often intertwined with other prejudices.
Wanda Desham explains.
So women and gender diverse individuals experience that double bind.
You know, the barriers that I talked about before, number one, primary, attitudinal.

(28:06):
It takes form and stigma and discrimination.
So disabled and neurodivergent individuals definitely experience those and then add tothat the double bind of sexism.
and other forms of discrimination related to gender.
I was given the feedback, you know, I was overly direct and I communicated differently andthat was from both the perspective of ableism and sexism.

(28:31):
Because, you know, I noticed in these environments, men weren't getting that feedback.
In fact, it was the opposite.
noticed men around me who were direct.
They were praised for their honesty, their straightforwardness.
And not only were they not discriminated against, they were often promoted and compensatedfor those differences.
Ingrid Mushta of the Ontario Disability Employment Network, or ODIN, tells us thatresources exist to help organizations better understand intersectionality.

(29:02):
ODIN has been doing a lot of reflection.
a lot of finding resources that helps us build our capacity to understand theintersectionality of disability as well.
That people bring with themselves not just the disability piece, but otherintersectionalities.
How do we help businesses navigate the concept of intersectionality and disability?

(29:26):
Race, religion, gender, all of these pieces that make up a person cannot be separated.
I think that helping organizations to access that professional development that helps themunderstand the intersectionalities of disability and other identities, that begins to

(29:46):
create a culture that welcomes everybody in a culture where conversations about what youneed to succeed can also be fostered.
Odin offers several training packages for employers to learn how to take abusiness-centered approach to build capacity and improve employment outcomes for people

(30:07):
who have disabilities.
And while it's important to get training to help create inclusive workplaces,accessibility experts insist it's also true that legislation advocating for and protecting
people with disabilities is also needed.
Nineteen years ago, Bill 118, or the Accessibility for Ontarians with Disabilities Act, orAODA, was passed.

(30:34):
And at the time, Citizenship Minister Marie Bountrogianni for the Ontario governmentdeclared the following.
Today is a very important day for the people with disabilities who have workedrelentlessly for a decade to make this legislation a reality.
This bill is their bill.
It is strong legislation that will allow every Ontarian to live, work and play withoutfacing barriers.

(31:02):
To have a better life for themselves and for their kids.
I'm proud of the role our government has played in crafting this legislation.
We want to make a difference to the lives of people with disabilities.
With this legislation, we are making a difference.
This legislation is about empowerment and inclusion.

(31:23):
I want this in the future for people to think back before 2005 and say, what were theythinking before 2005?
You imagine people complaining about the price of a ramp.
You imagine people complaining about having to have their menus in Braille.
You imagine complaining about people with Tourette's syndrome eating loudly in arestaurant.

(31:45):
What were they thinking before 2005?
In 2005, now 19 years ago,
the members of Ontario's Legislative Assembly almost unanimously voted to make theprovince accessible to people with disabilities by 2025.
The legislation, aiming to develop, implement and enforce standards related to goods,services, accommodation, employment and buildings before January 1st, 2025, was hailed as

(32:14):
groundbreaking and progressive.
But as we approach 2025, the province is nowhere near its goal.
Disability advocates are concerned that the province will not only miss its 2025 deadline,but that no one will keep pushing to stay focused on accessibility issues once this
deadline passes.

(32:35):
There have been four reviews since the AODA was enacted, and the most recent report hasfound that the legislation's outcomes are poor, that enforcement of the legislation
doesn't exist.
and that there's a lack of accountability for implementing the AODA in both the public andprivate sector.

(32:55):
These failures directly impact the 2.9 million people with disabilities in Ontario.
In light of this continued failure, David Lepofsky reflects on what he has learned aboutcreating change.
My biggest problem is not my blindness.
A lot of people would look at me and say, he's blind.
That must be a huge problem, which it isn't.

(33:17):
My biggest problem is my blindness.
It's the attitudes of sighted people towards my blindness.
You know, the diminished expectations, the stereotypes, the pity and so on.
The same goes for other disabilities.
And a lot of people went to town giving inspiring speeches to raise awareness.
And what we found was it doesn't work.
What we found is it's better to change action and the awareness will follow.

(33:43):
In other words, if you set mandatory requirements in law,
Or if you're a CEO and say, expect you got a new proposal for us.
I want as part of your proposal for you to identify that you've taken into account howpeople with disabilities, employees, customers, clients will be able to fully participate
in it.
And you've accommodated that we're going to have an offsite event.

(34:04):
We're going to have an office retreat.
Did you pick a venue that's accessible?
you didn't even ask.
Well, maybe you should go back and ask before we spend our money there.
and let hotels know we don't want to use your premises if it's not accessible.
That helps put the pressure on the marketplace to meet these needs.
But one of the things that comes from this way of thinking is this.

(34:28):
I, as a person with a disability, as a disability rights advocate, I actually do not carewhy someone removes or prevent a barrier.
I don't care why they do as long as they do.
In other words, if they remove that barrier because they heard an inspiring speech andtheir awareness was raised and they went and changed their practices, great.

(34:51):
If they were told they got to change that practice or they're going to get sued and theydidn't want to get sued and that led them to remove the barrier.
Look, if that's what made them change their practice, they changed the practice.
If they did it just because they want to impress their boss.
That's fine by me.
If they do it because they just think it's the right thing to do, because intuitivelythat's the way you should be.

(35:17):
I think that's great also.
As long as that barrier is gone, what we find is once the people remove and preventbarriers, that educates them.
That raises the awareness.
Human rights lawyer, Lauren MacDonald, also sees the importance of legislation andprecedent setting legal cases.

(35:38):
She shares that in 2017, she litigated a legal case framed around human rights thatgarnered global attention.
It related to an incident that happened in 2016, where a young woman who used its forearmcrutches due to spina bifida was in a downtown Toronto restaurant.

(36:01):
And she asked where the washer was.
And the restaurant employee actually
basically barred my client from going down the stairs because she was afraid that myclient would fall down the stairs, injure herself, and sue the restaurant.

(36:23):
And so in 2017, we filed an application with the Human Rights Tribunal of Ontario.
And it grabbed a lot of interest, but the way it worked was by saying that
Having access to a public washroom goes to the root of dignity, human dignity.

(36:46):
Because consider if you are not able to have access to a washroom when you need it, whatare your choices?
None of them are dignified.
So it grabbed a lot of attention because I needed to make people care.
If it was somebody who doesn't live with a disability, they wouldn't care.

(37:08):
It just doesn't have anything to do with me.
But if you frame it as a larger issue of human rights, then suddenly it matters.
And I'm pleased to say that the Toronto Star placed the story on the front page of theirnewspaper.
And it went viral around the world.

(37:30):
It was discussed in law firms, in law schools, among the human rights bar.
It was very important.
It's clear that change is necessary.
For some organizations, even in the nonprofit sector, it all comes down to the bottomline.
Employers may hesitate to invest in accessibility and accommodations because of a falseassumption that doing so will incur a heavy cost.

(37:58):
Ingrid Mashter explains that in fact, the opposite is true.
I think it's the misconception that accommodations are costly.
That is a very large misconception and we know that the data is out there.
The recent survey out of about 4,000 employers, every size of business from small tolarge, indicates that accommodations either cost nothing at all or that the average

(38:25):
one-time cost is $500.
When we talk about accommodations, 85 % of those businesses that were surveyed
found that the workplace accommodations helped them keep an employee.
So you were able to retain a valuable employee because you provided that accommodation.

(38:46):
85 % of those businesses said so.
The other piece is around 68 % of surveyed businesses said that the accommodations werevery effective in helping that employee do their job.
So that goes back to that whole concept of performance and productivity.
you were able to maintain or increase your performance and your productivity because youwere provided with an accommodation.

(39:12):
And the last piece that I want to give you is that 46 % of businesses survey found thatproviding a workplace accommodation eliminated the cost of training a new employee.
And so that goes back to employee retention.
And if I can just say that the cost of turnover is high.

(39:34):
I don't know in the for-profit sector unnecessarily because I don't have those numbers,but in the for-profit, replacing a frontline worker will cost you around $4,000.
And so that is uniform cost, the cost of the manager who's going to be training thatperson, the cost of all the associated other people that are helping onboard the person.

(39:57):
That is time that is not really
associated with an HR process, it's what it is.
You're welcoming a new team member.
And when we're talking about managers, that cost can jump up to $15,000.
So turn all risk costly.
If it's in their best financial interest to do so, as well as being ethically and morallysound, what exactly should employers do to ensure an accessible and inclusive workplace?

(40:24):
Wanda Deshawn tells us that accessibility
starts with the recruitment and hiring process.
That's why I highlight job postings and communications about your workplace.
If we can't even get an interview, if we don't even get a callback, then for us it'ssecondary if there's all kinds of programs and efforts in the workplace around IDE and DEI

(40:48):
because we can't even get in.
If we move through the cycle, reimagining interview techniques.
doing things like sending interview questions in advance, rethinking the need for resumes.
Often neurodivergent individuals and disabled individuals can have non-linear career pathsbecause of attitudinal barriers, because of stigma and biases that we face.

(41:12):
So there may be non-linear past gaps in employment.
So rethink your resume process.
So you're focusing more on getting to know the whole individual and not just certainaspects of the person's employment history.
Ensure that your interview team is diverse in makeup.
If possible, train team members on inclusive interviewing, considering neurodiversity.

(41:37):
Show people the job.
I always say this, looking back on my interviews, they didn't show me what the job waslike on the day to day.
They focused more on the relationship between me and who was going to be my supervisor.
So consider
inclusive practices in terms of onboarding, retention, fostering an environment whereeveryone is heard and fairly understood.

(42:06):
Focus on communication in a way that suspends judgment, that celebrates differences,doesn't expect everyone to be the same.
As Wanda Deschamps says, it's important for organizations to work at creating anenvironment
that doesn't expect every employee to be the same.
And Anthony Frasina reminds us that just getting in to a new place of employment isfraught with challenges for a person with disabilities.

(42:34):
Because they know from experience that simply disclosing their disability may make orbreak their chances of getting the job.
I think disclosure is a very, very important part of
the job recruitment process, the hiring process, I identify as a person with a visibledisability.

(42:55):
But there's also hidden or invisible disabilities that people may not choose to discloseprior to receiving an interview, whereas I would disclose it myself prior to an interview
to ensure the accommodations are met with respect and dignity.
You know, receiving a job afterwards and then disclosing there's an invisible disability,that tends to be a turnoff for an employer hiring an individual.

(43:18):
Ingrid Mushta agrees, but emphasizes that a workplace should be a safe place for employeesto ask for their basic needs to be met without the fear of stigmatization.
The other piece is that sometimes people who have invisible disabilities tend not todisclose for fear of stigma.

(43:40):
so building the capacity internally to create a culture that can
create safe spaces for people to intentionally start asking for the things that they needto When Odin trains businesses on disability awareness and confidence, the very first

(44:01):
thing that we talk about is ask people not what is the accommodation that they require,but ask what do they need to succeed in their role.
Because more often that is the accommodation.
If we're not talking about RAMs, we're talking about flexibility and how the work getsdone, maybe flexibility on schedules.

(44:22):
If you're a person who has an episodic disability and maybe mornings are difficult for youbecause of a medical condition, just maybe shifting your start date from a nine o'clock to
a 10 o'clock could make a difference.
And we know that through the pandemic, we all had to be very flexible on how the work gotdone.

(44:44):
A lot of the times the disability communities is asking, maintain those flexibilitieswithin the way that the business operates.
I think at the end, we need to be very mindful that it's about providing choices that meetthe needs of the person and not necessarily just go for one blanket of how things get
done.

(45:05):
And so again and again, the opportunity for alternatives of communication.
how a job posting gets put out to the disability community, not just in the digitalformat.
Maybe we send it off to a particular employment agency and then they can distribute it totheir community.
An employer here in Ontario ended up doing videos in ASL, so American Sign Language, whichis not a direct translation to English.

(45:35):
They took their posting because they were intentional in accessing the deaf community.
and translated it into an ASL video.
So if you were somebody who was deaf and did not necessarily read English, you can go intothis video on YouTube and access the information through American Sound Language to know

(45:56):
that they were hiring in this particular location.
So again, it's how do we provide information in different ways so that the person can thendecide what is the best way for them.
These are great examples of the many ways employers can choose to make their organizationsmore accessible to employees with disabilities.
But organizations don't just have the choice to accommodate, they have a duty to do so.

(46:21):
The duty to accommodate is a legal and ethical obligation that ensures people withdisabilities can fully participate in various aspects of society, including workplaces,
schools, and public services.
The duty to accommodate is rooted in the Canadian Human Rights Act, as well as inprovincial and territorial human rights codes.

(46:44):
It's also supported by the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms.
The 1977 Canadian Human Rights Act prohibits discrimination based on various grounds,including disability.
The duty to accommodate is an essential part of ensuring that individuals withdisabilities have equal access to opportunities.

(47:05):
Employers and service providers are required to remove barriers and provide reasonableaccommodations to prevent discrimination.
The duty to accommodate aims to provide individuals with disabilities an equal opportunityto participate fully in society, providing that the accommodations do not impose a, quote,

(47:26):
undue hardship on the provider, typically in terms of costs, health, or safety.
In order to fulfill one's duty to accommodate, it's important to first understand thedifference between accommodation and accessibility.
Anthony Fristina breaks it down for us.
So an accommodation is meant for an individual, whereas accessibility is meant universallyand for all.

(47:52):
And I find that there's a lot of underlining misunderstandings because people tend tostrive.
be compliance of what the AODA stands for and the AODA building codes set the precedencefor minimum standard, set the precedence for you know not necessarily meeting the needs of

(48:13):
people with disabilities because you're striving to meet a code, you're striving tocompliance rather than meeting the actual needs of people with disabilities.
You need people with disabilities at the beginning of a project, throughout the projectand at the conclusion of a project to ensure that
projects get completed and completed right the first time.

(48:33):
In the context of disability, discrimination often happens when employers fail to upholdtheir duty to accommodate and don't provide an inclusive environment.
Human rights lawyer, Lauren MacDonald, explains what the failure by an employer toaccommodate can look like when an employer intentionally or unintentionally treats an

(48:56):
employee or a job candidate unfairly.
based on the characteristics protected by human rights law, including disability.
So what are some forms of workplace discrimination?
We have direct discrimination, and that is when an individual is explicitly treated lessfavorably due to their disability.

(49:21):
For example, an employer may refuse to hire a person with a disability
solely because maybe because they use a wheelchair.
We don't want wheelchair use here.
Or even better, we don't hire people confined to wheelchairs, which is so inappropriate atso many levels, or the employer could just openly state that they won't accommodate an

(49:46):
individual's needs.
And so those are examples of direct discrimination.
They do happen, hopefully with education that's happening less and less.
Then we also have indirect discrimination, commonly referred to as systemicdiscrimination.
So these are policies or practices that appear neutral on the surface, like they'rebenign, but they disproportionately affect people with disabilities.

(50:17):
So, for example, if a company requires employees to work from an inaccessible officebuilding,
or mandate long working hours without considering the needs of employees with chronicillness, for example.
And that can result in discrimination if that policy applies to all employees across theboard.

(50:44):
And we have the failure to accommodate, which I've already talked about, limiting theemployees' ability to participate fully in the workplace.
The creation of
a work environment that has harassment or hostility as part of the environment.

(51:05):
So an employee could be faced with offensive remarks or jokes or behavior relating totheir disability.
So that negatively impacts on an employee's wellbeing and performance.
And like I said, if you have not created a safe space,

(51:27):
There should be no surprise why PWD employees will leave.
They will not hang around.
First, it needs to be reasonable accommodation.
Not perfect, but reasonable.
You need to accommodate to the point of undue hardship.
So what does that mean?

(51:48):
Undue hardship happens when the cost or the impact of the accommodation is too high.
or poses significant health or safety risks in the workplace.
But the threshold for proving undue hardship is very high and you need to consider theemployer.

(52:12):
Employers cannot claim undue hardship based on minor inconvenience.
Accommodations also need to be individualized and they must be tailored to the specificneed.
of the person because no two employees with disabilities are the same.

(52:32):
If you have met one person who is blind and have accommodated that person, well,congratulations, you met one person.
There are going to be many other ways that someone else who is blind or has low visionneeds to be accommodated.
So you have to be open-minded and you also have to be proactive.

(52:55):
in your accommodations and it should go without saying that disability accommodations areprivate and confidential.
The employer should only be requesting the information necessary to provide theappropriate accommodation.
For example, employers don't have a right to know the diagnosis.

(53:18):
All they need to know is this employee requires this accommodation to do the CAS.
of the job assigned.
Anthony Frisina weighs in on how employers can provide access and accommodations to ensuretheir employees can do their jobs and in doing so, break down barriers one step at a time.

(53:40):
When we eradicate a single barrier, Mary, subsequent barriers are much more easier totopple down because we've had that experience from an initial barrier and we have to work
together.
With the 27.7 % of people with disabilities, we need that 62.3 % in allyship to ensurethat the communities that we live in are accessible and inclusive for everybody.

(54:07):
Ryan Straznitsky reminds us that having accessible and inclusive communities goes beyondthinking of people with disabilities.
It's continuing the conversation, always looking for solutions, learning from people withvarious disabilities, right?
So many different things out there that you could open your mind to and at least have aconversation about to create change, create solutions, or at least trade-offs in a sense

(54:30):
and, you know, have an understanding of the field because I've met a lot of people thatnever seen someone in a wheelchair before and they don't know how to react.
It starts with that knowledge of, you know, we're people too and it's important to makethose changes.
It doesn't just affect people with disabilities but at some point or another you will facea form of it, whether it's age or an injury.
it's important to have the implementations in place before anything like that happens.

(54:52):
David Lepofsky echoes this idea that in our lifetime, we will all eventually face someform of disability.
In any organization, the fact is the employees in the workplace today who have nodisabilities are simply people with disabilities in waiting.
Because the greatest cause of disability is aging.

(55:13):
As you get older, either you acquire disabilities through the aging process,
or through illness or through accidents or whatever.
And so if you've got a workplace that has preventable and removable disability barriers,but they're left in place, then once an employee without a disability becomes an employee

(55:37):
with a disability, then they may not be able to stay around.
They may not be able to maintain their employment if there are too many barriers.
Now that
is a serious legal liability for the company or for the workplace if they don'teffectively accommodate.
But by providing a barrier-free workplace, you then provide a greater capacity not only toaccess a broader pool of potential employees, but you also enable yourself to retain your

(56:11):
existing employees much, much longer.
It all boils down to
There's every reason to do it.
And there's no reason not to do it.
And organizations who want to become better educated about accessibility and accommodationneed not look far.
Ingrid Mushta mentions just a few resources.

(56:33):
Across Canada, there are a number of organizations.
Each province will have their own ODIN, so their own disability employment network thatcan help them, support them with training and resources for how to...
understand and how to better serve both people who have a disability who are consumers,but also their own employees.
The Rick Hansen Foundation is another organization across Canada that can provide a numberof resources.

(56:59):
The Canadian Association for Supported Employment, it's another organization that Odinoften partners with to support businesses and not-for-profits are employers.
And so they could find resources in there as well that will really fit well.
regardless of the sector that we're talking about.
And particularly, I'm now thinking about the Canadian Association for Supported Employmentruns a program called MentorAbility.

(57:26):
It's a federally funded program that provides a career exploration opportunity forsomebody who has a disability.
Maybe this is an opportunity to look at mentorship through programs like MentorAbility sothat you can begin to cultivate a potential pipeline.
of employers for your organization who have a disability.

(57:47):
So connecting with those organizations like CASE, that's the Canadian Association forSupporter Employment, with your local disability employment network, and even connecting
with organizations like Recansive Foundation that would provide supports aroundaccessibility.
As organizations increasingly aim to recruit from diverse talent pools, there's a growingrecognition

(58:12):
of the value that individuals with disabilities bring to the workforce.
As awareness continues to grow, the landscape of work in Canada is transforming, possiblypaving the way for a more equitable future.
Looking ahead, we asked all of our guests to weigh in on how they see the workplacechanging and on what challenges remain.

(58:37):
First, we hear from David Lepofsky.
The workplace of today
right now is dramatically different than it was five or 10 years ago.
Where we work, what our actual duties are, the technology and the information technologythat we use to do our job, all of those things are significantly different than they were

(59:01):
five or 10 years ago.
And it is a fair prediction that the workplace of five years from now or 10 years from now
will be dramatically different than it is right now.
So if employers were to decide right now, I want my workplace of five years from now to bea barrier-free, accessible place for people with disabilities to work, where the job

(59:26):
specifications, the technology, the duties, the venues, the accommodations, all thatstuff, the furniture, that will be a barrier-free place.
If an employer decides that now, they'll get there.
because it's an evolving place, they're gonna be constantly changing.
If you build this into what you plan to do, it will become barrier-free or pretty darnclose.

(59:50):
But that depends on two things, a commitment and a plan.
And actually a third thing, someone in charge.
You need a chief accessibility officer within any organization.
Anthony Frisina agrees that things are changing in the workplace and in some good ways.
I've been in the workplace at Mohawk College since 2005 and accommodations have changed.

(01:00:15):
Certainly the pandemic has really changed the way we look at workplaces now.
The ability to work from home is more prevalent and more available now than it ever was.
So that's definitely been a positive and a good thing for me personally and it's a goodthing for
many people with disabilities to have the opportunity to be able to work, get paid in aspace where they're most comfortable.

(01:00:40):
Lauren McDonald sees enforceable legislation as a key to future change.
Certainly we need to strengthen and enforce accessibility legislation.
That is not happening, the enforcement piece of it.
We have the Accessible Canada Act that aimed to create a barrier-free country by 2040.
What people don't realize.

(01:01:02):
if that only applies to organizations within the federal government jurisdiction.
It's not a panacea for everything that happens in the country.
And we also need to have provincial alignment with those federal goals because we have theAODA, which is Ontario, and numerous provinces have variations of the same, but they're

(01:01:28):
not the same as the AODA at all.
And we need to align those provincial and territorial legislations with the federal goals.
We need to, no question, continue to eliminate barriers to employment through inclusivehiring practices, retention and career advancement, enhancing digital accessibility.

(01:01:54):
Ryan Strasnicki advocates for better training and education.
I think
Making the education mandatory and from then on building up, right, you have to startsomewhere and I think building a knowledge base where everyone has at least a base
understanding of what's needed to make things more universally accessible.
I think it starts there and again once the conversation gets going it leads toarchitecture, leads to programs, it leads to outlets and various ideas but I think you

(01:02:20):
have to start somewhere and I think it starts with a foundational base of the knowledgeand learning and the want to learn about the world with disabilities.
Wanda Desham looks to a need for increased representation at the leadership level.
was in the charitable sector.
I didn't have eye diagnosis.
However, I did notice that there was an absence of disabled leaders.

(01:02:43):
There was an absence of openly disabled employees, openly disabled leaders.
While I was still in the charitable sector and I was becoming attuned to my own diagnosis,I did notice that I didn't hear...
very many other people openly saying that they were neurodivergent.
We need more neurodivergent individuals at all levels within the charitable sector,including the leadership levels.

(01:03:08):
And I do believe that over time this will change.
Ingrid Mushta suggests that organizations who make a point of hiring people withdisabilities will only benefit by gaining invaluable knowledge and perspective.
What we're saying is that by hiring people who have a disability,
You are now engaging that talent.
You're gaining that perspective and that knowledge.

(01:03:31):
And by having people within your organization, you can now design products and serviceswith disability in mind.
And that will push you, propel you beyond AODA compliance.
And you will be serving your consumers in your community who have a disability betterbecause you will be designing services and products with disability in mind.

(01:03:56):
I'd like to thank all of our guests for joining us and sharing their wisdom, livedexperiences, valuable insights, and advice to help nonprofit organizations create
workplaces that are inclusive and accessible to all Canadians, including those withdisabilities.
Be sure to visit our website and our show notes for more information on the resources,reports, and programs mentioned in this episode.

(01:04:22):
If you'd like to hear more of what our guests have to say, check out our full videointerviews on our website.
Charity Village is proud to be the Canadian source for nonprofit news, employmentservices, crowdfunding, e-learning, HR resources and tools, and so much more.
Please take a moment to check out our website at charityvillage.com.

(01:04:44):
In the next episode of Charity Village Connects, a Charity Law Report found that in 2023,
67 % of all revenue going to Canadian charities comes from government.
So a potential change in government with new policies and mandates can cause significantuncertainty among many non-profits about their future revenue streams.

(01:05:06):
In some cases, depending on their mission and whether it aligns with a new government'spolicies, it may seem like an existential threat to some non-profits.
Federally, the Liberal minority government has already faced non-confidence votes inParliament, and more are expected.
So a snap election could happen at any time in the months prior to the required electionin the fall of 2025.

(01:05:30):
Provincially, the Ontario government is expected to call an election in the next sixmonths, while BC has recently gone through a nail-biter of an election that signals a
major shift in political support in the province.
In the face of such unpredictability, what can Canadian nonprofits do to better preparetheir organizations for a potential new government?

(01:05:53):
Are there any steps that they can take now to insulate their operations and revenuestreams from the turbulence of government uncertainty?
We'll talk to experts about how to navigate the stormy waters of uncertainty that comeswith a potential change in government.
Coming up next on Charity Village Connects.
I'm Mary Barrell, thanks for listening.

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