May 12, 2025 • 25 mins
Happy National Nursing Week!
In this special episode of Chats on Change, Karen swaps out her role as host for Dr. Annette Elliott Rose, Nova Scotia Healths Chief Nurse Executive and Vice President of Clinical Performance and Professional Practice. Annette is joined by her colleague Jennifer MacDougall, Director of Nursing Strategy - Interprofessional Practice & Learning, and author and journalist Sarah DiGregorio.
Annette and Jennifer chat with Sarah about her book, Taking Care - The Story of Nursing and Its Power to Change Our World.
The trio discuss the how the foundation of nursing is built on the fundamental human compulsion to care for one another.
Nurse at Nova Scotia Health
With a wide range of nursing opportunities across Nova Scotia, there's a place for everyone to grow and thrive here. Nova Scotia Health is committed to expanding its nursing workforce to fill critical roles across the province and improve access to care.
Explore our opportunities:
- To learn more and apply as a registered nurse, visit: https://jobs.nshealth.ca/nsha/job/All-Locations-Registered-Nurse-Seeking-Experienced-Candidates-NS/578291917/
- To learn more and apply as a licensed practical nurse, visit: https://jobs.nshealth.ca/nsha/job/All-Locations-Licensed-Practical-Nurse-Seeking-Experienced-Candidates-NS/578292117/
- To learn more and apply as a registered international nurse, visit: https://jobs.nshealth.ca/nsha/job/All-Locations-Registered-International-Nurses-NS/569807217/
Explore the new Nova Scotia Health internal travel nurse program, where you’ll find opportunities throughout Nova Scotia to expand your skills, experience the warmth of new environments, and contribute to our critical emergency departments.
Do you know a Nova Scotia Health nurse who's transforming healthcare? Nominate them in our Nursing Week contest, there's a chance to win one of six $100 Visa gift cards.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Hello and welcome to Chats on Change, a Nova Scotia Health
podcast with your host, interim CEO Karen Oldfield.
Oh, hello everyone. It is Nurses Week and I am very
pleased to actually be a guest host for Chats on Change as
Chief Nurse and VP Clinical Performance and Professional
(00:21):
Practice here at Nova Scotia Health.
It's my great pleasure to welcome a couple of guests with
us today, Jennifer McDougal. And Jennifer will introduce
herself momentarily. And Sarah D Gregorio.
Did I get that right, Sarah? And then Sarah's joining us to
to talk about her book, Taking Care of the Story of Nursing and
(00:42):
its Power to change the world. And of course, this, this fits
really well with this year's nursing.
Yeah. There you go.
Jen's copy of the book and we can share some details about
Sarah's book with all the listeners and shortly.
So this actually fits really well with Nursing week of this
year. So the the theme here in Canada
(01:04):
is the power of nurses to transform health.
And we've seen a lot of transformation in health in Nova
Scotia over the last little while.
We are on a transformation journey and nurses are at the
heart of that. Before we, we, we just wanted
to, to let folks know that the Nova Scotia Health podcast here
is really about having thoughtful conversations with
(01:25):
people. And we've been, we've invited
Sarah to be here with us today because of her, her book and her
work. She's also done some early work
on in the intimate history of premature birth.
And I will tell you that's a topic close to my heart because
I am a maternal newborn nurse. That was my career for a
practice career for a long time.Sarah's work has been featured
(01:48):
in the New York Times, The Washington Post, Insider, Slate,
Jezebel, among others. And she has delivered keynote
speeches for organizations like the American Nurses Association
and Seattle Children's Hospital.And she lives in Brooklyn, NY,
with her family and pets. Welcome, Sarah.
Thank you. So much for that kind
introduction. So, Jen, first over to you.
(02:11):
Tell us a little bit about your title and then what what make
you choose nursing as a profession?
And then, Sarah, I'm going to move to you and talk a little
bit about your book and your research to to inform the book
and get into some of the great stories that you've included in
your work. So Jen, to you first.
(02:32):
Yeah. So like like Annette said, I'm
Jen McDougal people. I I still sign my name Jennifer,
but people that know me well, I've I've shortened it to to Jen
with two NS. I am a registered nurse and have
been a nurse for 28 close to 29 years.
This in May and my title is director of being a professional
(02:56):
practice and learning and I haveprovincial responsibilities for
nursing enhancement strategies. So people often ask, what does
that mean? Nursing enhancement and the team
that I work with, we work towardoptimizing the scopes of our
providers. We work toward improving
(03:17):
practice environments for, for nurses and strategies that
recognize the profession of nursing, the value it's
contribution to the the healthcare system and innovative
ways to support nurses in practice.
So a little bit about what the, the title means and why, why did
(03:40):
I choose to become a nurse? I, I think, you know, I
reflected on this, this questionand it's, it really came from a
very early time in my life growing up in El Port,
Newfoundland. We had a very close family
friend who was a nurse and I have, I actually have a picture
(04:02):
of me in a white dress with her nursing hat on.
And because I was just mesmerized by her image when she
would come visit us before or after a shift and she'd have on
her white uniform and she'd still be wearing her nursing
hat. There was just something about
that image that I was incrediblydrawn to.
(04:22):
And I could really see myself inthat role and, and in that
image. I think I've always, I've always
liked the thought and idea of being able to take care of
people when they were on well and at a very early age.
I can, I can see our encyclopedia set.
(04:43):
We had a medical encyclopedia set and I was like so taken in
with human anatomy and Physiology.
So I think all of those things together is what led me to the
professional of nursing. Wonderful.
Thanks, Jen. And I think we're going to hear
some similarities between your experience in choosing to become
(05:03):
a nurse and more about your practice with what we've read in
Sarah's book. Because Sarah, I think your book
has been described as a sweepingcultural history of nursing and
lots of amazing research, I'm sure has gone into your book.
Tell us a little bit about the research and and how and why you
selected to tell the full story of nursing in your book.
(05:26):
Thank you for that question. Well, I was thinking about, I
was actually reflecting on experiences I had as a child and
also as a mother. And so like Jennifer, sort of
the way I came to this work is really has sort of a personal
(05:46):
answer and a professional answer.
And, and the personal answer is that I grew up as the only child
of two parents who were quite chronically, I'll, my mother was
diagnosed with metastatic breastcancer when I was 5 and my
father really struggled with Crohn's disease as well as
substance use disorder. And so I sort of experienced a
lot of my childhood as navigating the American
(06:09):
healthcare system with them and then eventually on behalf of
them and, and then, and they unfortunately passed away
relatively young, both of them. And then actually when I was
pregnant and gave birth, I gave birth at 28 weeks to my daughter
Mira, who luckily is doing wonderfully.
She's now 10 years old, but again, found myself back in
these very intense medical situations and environments.
(06:35):
And that's sort of really why I started writing about healthcare
because I had all these questions and I thought, if I
have these questions, other people have these questions.
And one wonderful thing about being a journalist is that you
can call experts and ask them all your questions and they tell
you. So I love that.
And when I was thinking about, Ihad written my book early, which
was about premature birth, and Iwas thinking about what to write
(06:56):
about next. And I think anyone who has
actually been in healthcare environments really knows on an
emotional level the impact that nurses have on patients and
families. And yet I really didn't see that
represented in any kind of mediareally.
In particular here in the UnitedStates, there was a study that
(07:19):
found that nurses are quoted as experts only in 2% of healthcare
stories in the media. And of course, knowing that
nurses are the largest group of healthcare professionals and
provide the vast majority of direct patient care, that's a
big gap. And so as a professional, I see
a gap and I think I should try to fill it.
And, and being able to bring forward these stories that I
(07:42):
knew, I knew on a personal levelwere very, very impactful, very
important. And then I just didn't see
represented as part of the way that we talk about healthcare
and understand healthcare and how it works and who's providing
it. And so when I started, actually,
(08:03):
I remember very clearly, I had ameeting with my editor on March
10th or something, 2020. And it was right before COVID
hit New York City. And I remember this very clearly
because I had hand sanitizer because I was a NICU mom.
I always had hand sanitizer. And she was like, why are you
doing that? What's that going to do?
(08:23):
And then of course, like a week later, everything was closed.
And so, and but at that lunch, she had said, you know, that
this is a good idea. Why don't you start looking into
a big book about nursing? And so it was a very strange
moment to be researching nursing.
But that is where I started. I started in March 2020, and
(08:45):
because of course, we couldn't go anywhere, I started by doing
a lot of reading about the history of nursing and
concurrently interviewing nurseswho were working with COVID
patients on the phone. And so that was where I started.
And what I quickly realized was that nursing is not the kind of
thing that you can just decide that you're going to write a
(09:07):
cultural history. It is absolutely huge.
It is vast. You know, I thought I'd be
writing a lot about Florence Nightingale and quickly realized
that the history of nursing is so much bigger than that.
And so that's really, you know, the, the sort of combination of
factors that brought me to the book.
And then researching the book was a process of going deep and
(09:30):
going wide, reading, reading, talking, talking, talking.
And it was a process of real surprise and discovery for me.
Yeah, and I, I, I did have a, a question and you, you kind of
touched on it there, Sarah. So I think it's a good time to
bring it up. So in your research, what
surprised you most or something you didn't expect to uncover
(09:52):
about nursing? So I think part of the
complication of writing about nursing and even sometimes
talking about nursing is that itis very hard to define.
And in particular in a historical context, who was a
nurse. You know, of course training and
(10:13):
licensure are important and havebeen important for for a good
long time now, but they also arenot.
Those things are not and have never been neutral or available
to everyone. And there.
So I guess the thing that surprised me, but also that I
find endlessly interesting aboutnursing is the difficulty in
(10:38):
really putting your finger on what makes it so powerful.
And I actually think I sort of came to the conclusion because
as I was going through, I thought it would be a much more
straightforward process to writethis book than it was.
And it was not straightforward, you know, deciding how to
include people whose nursing relied on oral traditions or,
(11:04):
you know, people who were not called nurses but who clearly
did the work of nursing in a historical context.
And sort of finding that thread of what I think of as real power
of nursing, which is to considerthe human being in in their
context holistically with expertise about the body, but
(11:27):
also expertise in set in the sense of relating to people and
drawing them out and then, you know, assessing them in every
sense. And I think that there that that
process, because it is relational and has to do with
human beings, is just very hard to quantify, to define.
(11:50):
And, and so it, it, I found it incredibly powerful to realize
that nursing is, I think it's the skilled expression, the
skilled, trained expression of afundamental human impulse, which
is to help people in times of need and help people through
(12:11):
vulnerable moments. And so I found the vastness of
that to be very surprising. Very, I mean, I, I could have,
you know, had I thought about ita little bit in a deeper way,
maybe I could have figured that out.
But I, I do think that the farther you go into researching
nursing, the bigger it gets. And, and I, and I loved that.
(12:35):
And I did find that surprising and a bit challenging because it
was important to me to recognizeand always to foregrounds the
independence of the independenceof nursing as a scientific
discipline, as a profession. And not to minimize that ever,
but also to widen the lens and let let the story of nursing
(12:59):
encompass people from all placesfrom all times.
Because I think that really is the reality.
It makes me wonder because the what you're describing is, you
know, what we call holistic care, but the wholeness of being
a nurse and your initial comments around, you know,
(13:21):
nurses only being recognized fortheir expertise like in 2% of
published work out there. And so how do we bring all that
together so that nurses actuallyfeel and understand their value
in healthcare and in in society generally?
(13:42):
I mean, nurses really are going through quite a traumatic time.
Now you mentioned the pandemic. You know, there were times at
the beginning of the pandemic when, you know, people were
banging their pots at their doors and celebrating all that
that folks were doing in healthcare.
And then there were some challenging times during the
pandemic as well, where people really were resisting some of
(14:04):
the things that we needed to putin place to to promote safety.
And so nurses were feeling that as well.
And during all of it, the pressures of working in a
pandemic, right? And now, of course, we have
global workforce challenges nurses, you know, share with us
often around burnout and workingshort staffed and trying to just
(14:26):
do all the good things that theywant to do as nurses to provide
that holistic care and still stay connected to meaning and
purpose. And so I think your book
actually outlines in a storied way the meaning and purpose of
nurses and nursing. Don't know if you want to
comment on that. Yes, I think, well, I'll tell
(14:48):
you a story. I was speaking on a call in show
that is on the NPR station in San Francisco, National Public
Radio in the United States and and we had two kinds of callers.
One was people who had experienced exceptional nursing
(15:12):
care who called in and they would inevitably start to cry
describing the impact that this nurse had on them.
And often times, you know, sometimes these stories are
dramatic stories of, you know, it might be the end of lifetime
care for one of their family members or it might be something
very, you know, something more routine.
Nevertheless, the, as you say, the holistic care, the care for
(15:35):
the body, the care for the wholeperson that a nurse provided for
these people made them want to call in and tell the world about
it and and still it, you know, it illicit great, illicit great
emotion for them. The second kind of caller were
nurses calling in to tell horrorstories about their working
conditions, calling in to say that, you know, they had gone
(15:59):
into nursing For these reasons. And now they found themselves
trying desperately to help people within systems that were
falling apart, that were in manycases, never built to recognize
or maximize their expertise and their practice.
And so I found that, you know, Ifound that to be sort of an
(16:21):
encapsulation of what this conversation is right now, which
is a lot of people, a lot of nurses doing their very, very
best with their tremendous expertise and their tremendous
will to help people. And the public actually, you
(16:42):
know, I, I think the public doesn't have a very good
understanding of all that nursescan do and of their practice.
But I do think that the public has a real emotional connection
to nurses. Because.
Anytime you know, if you have been in any situation and a
nurse helps you, you really do not forget it.
And so, you know, there's a, there's, I think that nurses and
(17:05):
the public are natural allies and we find we, we both groups
and, and of course there's nurses are also part of the
public. So it's not like an actual
binary, but sort of thinking about it this way, we, we all
find ourselves in these systems that are failing us very much.
And and I think that that's the next question that kind of comes
(17:28):
up out of this work is there is tremendous power in nursing and
tremendous potential. And what are the ways that we
are all missing out on that because the systems are not
working. And I would say I don't know as
much about the healthcare systemin Canada.
And I know, I know every, I knowno healthcare system is perfect,
(17:49):
but the United States healthcaresystem is truly broken.
Perhaps broken is not even the word was never built to was, was
built really with the with the goal of maximizing profit.
And sometimes that aligns with patient care and sometimes it
doesn't. And, and so yes, I, I think
(18:12):
we're in a real pickle, but I dothink it's important to keep at
the forefront the knowledge and the, and the deep reality that
nurses and the public are our allies and, and, and the power
of nursing really is in that relationship, I think.
I, I love that that thought of nurses and the public being
(18:36):
allies that I think that's such a great statement.
And, you know, the reality is that this system, the healthcare
system cannot function without nurses.
Yet we have nurses working in a system that we're hearing is,
you know, perhaps failing them or hasn't been set up such that
(18:57):
they're they're undervalue is recognized.
So then it becomes for ourselves, leaders in this
healthcare system, like how do we ensure that we keep our our
nurses, they are such a valuableasset and how do we keep them in
a system and how do we leverage their expertise to help us
(19:17):
transform the system? Because that's really and truly
what is needed. And I think it, you know, it
kind of circles back in that to the, to the conversation we have
around the joy of nursing. We, we feel like it's, it's
fading a little bit. And, and what do we need to do
to, to reignite and, and bring that back?
(19:38):
And, and I think about the work that I get to do in my role
around making sure that we celebrate and we have
opportunities to recognize our nurses and their contribution,
that we ensure that there is space and time and ability for
them to that they're included indecision making and that they
(20:02):
have voice to tell us what is needed to to help to transform.
So we have our first nursing practice council for Nova Scotia
Health. Our first meeting happens
tomorrow. So it, you know, it has such a
good alignment with, you know, nursing nursing week.
And I think another thing that again that.
(20:22):
You know, so privileged to be able to to work on and to help
to support. So we need to take care of
nurses and their health, right? Like they are working long
shifts, often time they're working overtime, they're
working short staffed. That takes a toll on, you know,
the human body physically, but also mentally as well.
(20:43):
When you want, you hold yourselfto a standard of of care, you
have that expectation around your expertise and the care you
deliver and how you want your patients to feel.
And if they're working in a system where they're not able to
do that and to provide that care, it creates such moral
(21:03):
distress. And we need to ensure that we
are paying attention to that to help prevent burnout in our
nurses and make sure that we're taking care of them because they
are such a valuable asset. Yeah, I absolutely agree.
As we as we think about wrappingup, Sarah, what would be the
(21:24):
three messages you would want nurses and the public both to
know from your work? Well, first, just directed at
nurses. I would like nurses to know that
even when you don't hear from a family or a patient because
sometimes it's difficult to go back and find that nurse
(21:47):
patients and families remember what you did for them for the
rest of their lives. I know this for a fact
personally and professionally. I mean, if you are feeling
unseen and unappreciated, I can tell you that you are seen and
appreciated by your patients. What you do is tremendously
(22:08):
valuable both to individuals, communities and to people as a
whole. And, and, and in my opinion, it
is the most, it is the most profound kind of work.
I guess the second thing I'd want to say to everybody is
that, you know, there's evidenceof, of nursing in the fossil
(22:33):
record. Of course, it's not nursing like
we think of it today, but it is there.
It is a fact that even before wehad the written word, people
were caring for community members who were sick, who were
injured. And so we can think of ourselves
as a species for whom it is completely natural.
And part of our earliest legacy is that we organized care for
(22:59):
people in moments of vulnerability.
We can understand ourselves thatway.
We can choose that. And lastly, I guess I would, I,
I just hope that what comes out of this work is a renewed
commitment to, to think about from wherever you are as a nurse
or as someone in healthcare or as a community member to think
(23:21):
about then how do we carry that legacy forward?
How can we best organize care for moments of vulnerability
with the knowledge that there's no, again, there are no
binaries. We all move through moments of
vulnerability. We all need nursing care.
Nurses need nursing care. Everybody needs nursing care.
(23:42):
So we can't ignore that. How are we going to move
forward? How are we going to continue to
thrive? And and and and advance without
a renewed commitment to taking care of each other.
And I think that's a wonderful way to finish us off to think
about everyone needs nursing, including nurses.
(24:04):
So taking care of each other, right?
You know, I know that we've beendoing a lot.
Jennifer and team and many others have been working with
nurses across Nova Scotia Healthto, as she had mentioned, expand
their scopes, make sure that they can do all the good work
that they're educated to do and they have the knowledge and
expertise to do and that they'redoing that really taking care of
(24:28):
of the the full human being, right?
And all of that because that gives all of us as nurses
meaning and purpose and the workthat we do.
And so I, I think that message of everybody needs nursing and
we need to move forward togetherto continue to improve the
system, to continue to find thatjoy and meeting and purpose and,
(24:51):
and to take care. So nurses are transforming the
system. We know that everyday they are
innovators, they are creative, they are brilliant.
And this week is about celebrating them.
And thank you, Sarah, for being with us today and sharing your
insights, some details from yourwork.
We will be sharing the details of the book with everyone so
(25:12):
that they can read for themselves all the great stories
and the history of nursing. So thank you very much and thank
you to Jennifer for being with with us with me today and us
today. So thank you both.
Hello and welcome to Chats on Change, a Nova Scotia Health
podcast with your host, interim CEO Karen Oldfield.
Oh, hello everyone. It is Nurses Week and I am very
pleased to actually be a guest host for Chats on Change as
Chief Nurse and VP Clinical Performance and Professional
(00:21):
Practice here at Nova Scotia Health.
It's my great pleasure to welcome a couple of guests with
us today, Jennifer McDougal. And Jennifer will introduce
herself momentarily. And Sarah D Gregorio.
Did I get that right, Sarah? And then Sarah's joining us to
to talk about her book, Taking Care of the Story of Nursing and
(00:42):
its Power to change the world. And of course, this, this fits
really well with this year's nursing.
Yeah. There you go.
Jen's copy of the book and we can share some details about
Sarah's book with all the listeners and shortly.
So this actually fits really well with Nursing week of this
year. So the the theme here in Canada
(01:04):
is the power of nurses to transform health.
And we've seen a lot of transformation in health in Nova
Scotia over the last little while.
We are on a transformation journey and nurses are at the
heart of that. Before we, we, we just wanted
to, to let folks know that the Nova Scotia Health podcast here
is really about having thoughtful conversations with
(01:25):
people. And we've been, we've invited
Sarah to be here with us today because of her, her book and her
work. She's also done some early work
on in the intimate history of premature birth.
And I will tell you that's a topic close to my heart because
I am a maternal newborn nurse. That was my career for a
practice career for a long time.Sarah's work has been featured
(01:48):
in the New York Times, The Washington Post, Insider, Slate,
Jezebel, among others. And she has delivered keynote
speeches for organizations like the American Nurses Association
and Seattle Children's Hospital.And she lives in Brooklyn, NY,
with her family and pets. Welcome, Sarah.
Thank you. So much for that kind
introduction. So, Jen, first over to you.
(02:11):
Tell us a little bit about your title and then what what make
you choose nursing as a profession?
And then, Sarah, I'm going to move to you and talk a little
bit about your book and your research to to inform the book
and get into some of the great stories that you've included in
your work. So Jen, to you first.
(02:32):
Yeah. So like like Annette said, I'm
Jen McDougal people. I I still sign my name Jennifer,
but people that know me well, I've I've shortened it to to Jen
with two NS. I am a registered nurse and have
been a nurse for 28 close to 29 years.
This in May and my title is director of being a professional
(02:56):
practice and learning and I haveprovincial responsibilities for
nursing enhancement strategies. So people often ask, what does
that mean? Nursing enhancement and the team
that I work with, we work towardoptimizing the scopes of our
providers. We work toward improving
(03:17):
practice environments for, for nurses and strategies that
recognize the profession of nursing, the value it's
contribution to the the healthcare system and innovative
ways to support nurses in practice.
So a little bit about what the, the title means and why, why did
(03:40):
I choose to become a nurse? I, I think, you know, I
reflected on this, this questionand it's, it really came from a
very early time in my life growing up in El Port,
Newfoundland. We had a very close family
friend who was a nurse and I have, I actually have a picture
(04:02):
of me in a white dress with her nursing hat on.
And because I was just mesmerized by her image when she
would come visit us before or after a shift and she'd have on
her white uniform and she'd still be wearing her nursing
hat. There was just something about
that image that I was incrediblydrawn to.
(04:22):
And I could really see myself inthat role and, and in that
image. I think I've always, I've always
liked the thought and idea of being able to take care of
people when they were on well and at a very early age.
I can, I can see our encyclopedia set.
(04:43):
We had a medical encyclopedia set and I was like so taken in
with human anatomy and Physiology.
So I think all of those things together is what led me to the
professional of nursing. Wonderful.
Thanks, Jen. And I think we're going to hear
some similarities between your experience in choosing to become
(05:03):
a nurse and more about your practice with what we've read in
Sarah's book. Because Sarah, I think your book
has been described as a sweepingcultural history of nursing and
lots of amazing research, I'm sure has gone into your book.
Tell us a little bit about the research and and how and why you
selected to tell the full story of nursing in your book.
(05:26):
Thank you for that question. Well, I was thinking about, I
was actually reflecting on experiences I had as a child and
also as a mother. And so like Jennifer, sort of
the way I came to this work is really has sort of a personal
(05:46):
answer and a professional answer.
And, and the personal answer is that I grew up as the only child
of two parents who were quite chronically, I'll, my mother was
diagnosed with metastatic breastcancer when I was 5 and my
father really struggled with Crohn's disease as well as
substance use disorder. And so I sort of experienced a
lot of my childhood as navigating the American
(06:09):
healthcare system with them and then eventually on behalf of
them and, and then, and they unfortunately passed away
relatively young, both of them. And then actually when I was
pregnant and gave birth, I gave birth at 28 weeks to my daughter
Mira, who luckily is doing wonderfully.
She's now 10 years old, but again, found myself back in
these very intense medical situations and environments.
(06:35):
And that's sort of really why I started writing about healthcare
because I had all these questions and I thought, if I
have these questions, other people have these questions.
And one wonderful thing about being a journalist is that you
can call experts and ask them all your questions and they tell
you. So I love that.
And when I was thinking about, Ihad written my book early, which
was about premature birth, and Iwas thinking about what to write
(06:56):
about next. And I think anyone who has
actually been in healthcare environments really knows on an
emotional level the impact that nurses have on patients and
families. And yet I really didn't see that
represented in any kind of mediareally.
In particular here in the UnitedStates, there was a study that
(07:19):
found that nurses are quoted as experts only in 2% of healthcare
stories in the media. And of course, knowing that
nurses are the largest group of healthcare professionals and
provide the vast majority of direct patient care, that's a
big gap. And so as a professional, I see
a gap and I think I should try to fill it.
And, and being able to bring forward these stories that I
(07:42):
knew, I knew on a personal levelwere very, very impactful, very
important. And then I just didn't see
represented as part of the way that we talk about healthcare
and understand healthcare and how it works and who's providing
it. And so when I started, actually,
(08:03):
I remember very clearly, I had ameeting with my editor on March
10th or something, 2020. And it was right before COVID
hit New York City. And I remember this very clearly
because I had hand sanitizer because I was a NICU mom.
I always had hand sanitizer. And she was like, why are you
doing that? What's that going to do?
(08:23):
And then of course, like a week later, everything was closed.
And so, and but at that lunch, she had said, you know, that
this is a good idea. Why don't you start looking into
a big book about nursing? And so it was a very strange
moment to be researching nursing.
But that is where I started. I started in March 2020, and
(08:45):
because of course, we couldn't go anywhere, I started by doing
a lot of reading about the history of nursing and
concurrently interviewing nurseswho were working with COVID
patients on the phone. And so that was where I started.
And what I quickly realized was that nursing is not the kind of
thing that you can just decide that you're going to write a
(09:07):
cultural history. It is absolutely huge.
It is vast. You know, I thought I'd be
writing a lot about Florence Nightingale and quickly realized
that the history of nursing is so much bigger than that.
And so that's really, you know, the, the sort of combination of
factors that brought me to the book.
And then researching the book was a process of going deep and
(09:30):
going wide, reading, reading, talking, talking, talking.
And it was a process of real surprise and discovery for me.
Yeah, and I, I, I did have a, a question and you, you kind of
touched on it there, Sarah. So I think it's a good time to
bring it up. So in your research, what
surprised you most or something you didn't expect to uncover
(09:52):
about nursing? So I think part of the
complication of writing about nursing and even sometimes
talking about nursing is that itis very hard to define.
And in particular in a historical context, who was a
nurse. You know, of course training and
(10:13):
licensure are important and havebeen important for for a good
long time now, but they also arenot.
Those things are not and have never been neutral or available
to everyone. And there.
So I guess the thing that surprised me, but also that I
find endlessly interesting aboutnursing is the difficulty in
(10:38):
really putting your finger on what makes it so powerful.
And I actually think I sort of came to the conclusion because
as I was going through, I thought it would be a much more
straightforward process to writethis book than it was.
And it was not straightforward, you know, deciding how to
include people whose nursing relied on oral traditions or,
(11:04):
you know, people who were not called nurses but who clearly
did the work of nursing in a historical context.
And sort of finding that thread of what I think of as real power
of nursing, which is to considerthe human being in in their
context holistically with expertise about the body, but
(11:27):
also expertise in set in the sense of relating to people and
drawing them out and then, you know, assessing them in every
sense. And I think that there that that
process, because it is relational and has to do with
human beings, is just very hard to quantify, to define.
(11:50):
And, and so it, it, I found it incredibly powerful to realize
that nursing is, I think it's the skilled expression, the
skilled, trained expression of afundamental human impulse, which
is to help people in times of need and help people through
(12:11):
vulnerable moments. And so I found the vastness of
that to be very surprising. Very, I mean, I, I could have,
you know, had I thought about ita little bit in a deeper way,
maybe I could have figured that out.
But I, I do think that the farther you go into researching
nursing, the bigger it gets. And, and I, and I loved that.
(12:35):
And I did find that surprising and a bit challenging because it
was important to me to recognizeand always to foregrounds the
independence of the independenceof nursing as a scientific
discipline, as a profession. And not to minimize that ever,
but also to widen the lens and let let the story of nursing
(12:59):
encompass people from all placesfrom all times.
Because I think that really is the reality.
It makes me wonder because the what you're describing is, you
know, what we call holistic care, but the wholeness of being
a nurse and your initial comments around, you know,
(13:21):
nurses only being recognized fortheir expertise like in 2% of
published work out there. And so how do we bring all that
together so that nurses actuallyfeel and understand their value
in healthcare and in in society generally?
(13:42):
I mean, nurses really are going through quite a traumatic time.
Now you mentioned the pandemic. You know, there were times at
the beginning of the pandemic when, you know, people were
banging their pots at their doors and celebrating all that
that folks were doing in healthcare.
And then there were some challenging times during the
pandemic as well, where people really were resisting some of
(14:04):
the things that we needed to putin place to to promote safety.
And so nurses were feeling that as well.
And during all of it, the pressures of working in a
pandemic, right? And now, of course, we have
global workforce challenges nurses, you know, share with us
often around burnout and workingshort staffed and trying to just
(14:26):
do all the good things that theywant to do as nurses to provide
that holistic care and still stay connected to meaning and
purpose. And so I think your book
actually outlines in a storied way the meaning and purpose of
nurses and nursing. Don't know if you want to
comment on that. Yes, I think, well, I'll tell
(14:48):
you a story. I was speaking on a call in show
that is on the NPR station in San Francisco, National Public
Radio in the United States and and we had two kinds of callers.
One was people who had experienced exceptional nursing
(15:12):
care who called in and they would inevitably start to cry
describing the impact that this nurse had on them.
And often times, you know, sometimes these stories are
dramatic stories of, you know, it might be the end of lifetime
care for one of their family members or it might be something
very, you know, something more routine.
Nevertheless, the, as you say, the holistic care, the care for
(15:35):
the body, the care for the wholeperson that a nurse provided for
these people made them want to call in and tell the world about
it and and still it, you know, it illicit great, illicit great
emotion for them. The second kind of caller were
nurses calling in to tell horrorstories about their working
conditions, calling in to say that, you know, they had gone
(15:59):
into nursing For these reasons. And now they found themselves
trying desperately to help people within systems that were
falling apart, that were in manycases, never built to recognize
or maximize their expertise and their practice.
And so I found that, you know, Ifound that to be sort of an
(16:21):
encapsulation of what this conversation is right now, which
is a lot of people, a lot of nurses doing their very, very
best with their tremendous expertise and their tremendous
will to help people. And the public actually, you
(16:42):
know, I, I think the public doesn't have a very good
understanding of all that nursescan do and of their practice.
But I do think that the public has a real emotional connection
to nurses. Because.
Anytime you know, if you have been in any situation and a
nurse helps you, you really do not forget it.
And so, you know, there's a, there's, I think that nurses and
(17:05):
the public are natural allies and we find we, we both groups
and, and of course there's nurses are also part of the
public. So it's not like an actual
binary, but sort of thinking about it this way, we, we all
find ourselves in these systems that are failing us very much.
And and I think that that's the next question that kind of comes
(17:28):
up out of this work is there is tremendous power in nursing and
tremendous potential. And what are the ways that we
are all missing out on that because the systems are not
working. And I would say I don't know as
much about the healthcare systemin Canada.
And I know, I know every, I knowno healthcare system is perfect,
(17:49):
but the United States healthcaresystem is truly broken.
Perhaps broken is not even the word was never built to was, was
built really with the with the goal of maximizing profit.
And sometimes that aligns with patient care and sometimes it
doesn't. And, and so yes, I, I think
(18:12):
we're in a real pickle, but I dothink it's important to keep at
the forefront the knowledge and the, and the deep reality that
nurses and the public are our allies and, and, and the power
of nursing really is in that relationship, I think.
I, I love that that thought of nurses and the public being
(18:36):
allies that I think that's such a great statement.
And, you know, the reality is that this system, the healthcare
system cannot function without nurses.
Yet we have nurses working in a system that we're hearing is,
you know, perhaps failing them or hasn't been set up such that
(18:57):
they're they're undervalue is recognized.
So then it becomes for ourselves, leaders in this
healthcare system, like how do we ensure that we keep our our
nurses, they are such a valuableasset and how do we keep them in
a system and how do we leverage their expertise to help us
(19:17):
transform the system? Because that's really and truly
what is needed. And I think it, you know, it
kind of circles back in that to the, to the conversation we have
around the joy of nursing. We, we feel like it's, it's
fading a little bit. And, and what do we need to do
to, to reignite and, and bring that back?
(19:38):
And, and I think about the work that I get to do in my role
around making sure that we celebrate and we have
opportunities to recognize our nurses and their contribution,
that we ensure that there is space and time and ability for
them to that they're included indecision making and that they
(20:02):
have voice to tell us what is needed to to help to transform.
So we have our first nursing practice council for Nova Scotia
Health. Our first meeting happens
tomorrow. So it, you know, it has such a
good alignment with, you know, nursing nursing week.
And I think another thing that again that.
(20:22):
You know, so privileged to be able to to work on and to help
to support. So we need to take care of
nurses and their health, right? Like they are working long
shifts, often time they're working overtime, they're
working short staffed. That takes a toll on, you know,
the human body physically, but also mentally as well.
(20:43):
When you want, you hold yourselfto a standard of of care, you
have that expectation around your expertise and the care you
deliver and how you want your patients to feel.
And if they're working in a system where they're not able to
do that and to provide that care, it creates such moral
(21:03):
distress. And we need to ensure that we
are paying attention to that to help prevent burnout in our
nurses and make sure that we're taking care of them because they
are such a valuable asset. Yeah, I absolutely agree.
As we as we think about wrappingup, Sarah, what would be the
(21:24):
three messages you would want nurses and the public both to
know from your work? Well, first, just directed at
nurses. I would like nurses to know that
even when you don't hear from a family or a patient because
sometimes it's difficult to go back and find that nurse
(21:47):
patients and families remember what you did for them for the
rest of their lives. I know this for a fact
personally and professionally. I mean, if you are feeling
unseen and unappreciated, I can tell you that you are seen and
appreciated by your patients. What you do is tremendously
(22:08):
valuable both to individuals, communities and to people as a
whole. And, and, and in my opinion, it
is the most, it is the most profound kind of work.
I guess the second thing I'd want to say to everybody is
that, you know, there's evidenceof, of nursing in the fossil
(22:33):
record. Of course, it's not nursing like
we think of it today, but it is there.
It is a fact that even before wehad the written word, people
were caring for community members who were sick, who were
injured. And so we can think of ourselves
as a species for whom it is completely natural.
And part of our earliest legacy is that we organized care for
(22:59):
people in moments of vulnerability.
We can understand ourselves thatway.
We can choose that. And lastly, I guess I would, I,
I just hope that what comes out of this work is a renewed
commitment to, to think about from wherever you are as a nurse
or as someone in healthcare or as a community member to think
(23:21):
about then how do we carry that legacy forward?
How can we best organize care for moments of vulnerability
with the knowledge that there's no, again, there are no
binaries. We all move through moments of
vulnerability. We all need nursing care.
Nurses need nursing care. Everybody needs nursing care.
(23:42):
So we can't ignore that. How are we going to move
forward? How are we going to continue to
thrive? And and and and advance without
a renewed commitment to taking care of each other.
And I think that's a wonderful way to finish us off to think
about everyone needs nursing, including nurses.
(24:04):
So taking care of each other, right?
You know, I know that we've beendoing a lot.
Jennifer and team and many others have been working with
nurses across Nova Scotia Healthto, as she had mentioned, expand
their scopes, make sure that they can do all the good work
that they're educated to do and they have the knowledge and
expertise to do and that they'redoing that really taking care of
(24:28):
of the the full human being, right?
And all of that because that gives all of us as nurses
meaning and purpose and the workthat we do.
And so I, I think that message of everybody needs nursing and
we need to move forward togetherto continue to improve the
system, to continue to find thatjoy and meeting and purpose and,
(24:51):
and to take care. So nurses are transforming the
system. We know that everyday they are
innovators, they are creative, they are brilliant.
And this week is about celebrating them.
And thank you, Sarah, for being with us today and sharing your
insights, some details from yourwork.
We will be sharing the details of the book with everyone so
(25:12):
that they can read for themselves all the great stories
and the history of nursing. So thank you very much and thank
you to Jennifer for being with with us with me today and us
today. So thank you both.
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