April 11, 2022 • 54 mins
Mari Fong interviews singer-songwriter Amos Lee and Dr. Melissa Boudin, psychologist and Clinical Director of Choosing Therapy. Amos Lee spent his life coping with anxiety and panic attacks which led him to be agoraphobic at the tender age of 10 years-old. Lee shares his panic attack recovery tools, and also how to best support someone with mood disorders. We'll also play a clip of his single, "Worry No More" from his 6th album, 'Dreamland.'
Next, Dr. Melissa Boudin, psychologist and Clinical Director of Choosing Therapy explains the breathing techniques and other skills that can be learned to effectively calm panic attacks. Dr. Boudin also shares how online therapy or telehealth is effective and convenient whether you're on tour or at home.
“Be brave, ask for help, and be persistent in finding the mental help that you need.” For free and affordable solutions for mental health and addiction recovery, visit: http://checkyourheadpodcast.com/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_03 (00:00):
Welcome to the Check Your Head podcast, the podcast
where notable musicians andexperts share their stories and
solutions for mental health andwellness.
I'm your host, Mari Fong, amusic journalist and life coach
for musicians, and today I havea question for you.
Have you ever experienced apanic attack?
(00:23):
Well, our featured musiciantoday has spent his life coping
with panic attacks and evenbecame agoraphobic, unable to
leave his house at the tenderage of 10.
Yet this artist has learned tocope and overcome his anxiety to
tour with the likes of NorahJones, Van Morrison, Adele, and
even the boss, BruceSpringsteen.
(00:44):
Today we have the great AmosLee, who will share his panic
attack tools for recovery, andwho recently dropped his sixth
album called Dreamland.
We'll also play a clip of hissingle, Worry No More, at the
end of our episode.
Next, we have clinicalpsychologist Dr.
Melissa Boudin, who will explainthe breathing exercises and
other skills taught in therapythat are most effective to calm
(01:08):
panic attacks.
Dr.
Boudin will also share howtelehealth or online therapy
using your computer or phonescreen can be especially helpful
and effective while on tour orin the comfort of your home.
But first, let's hear Amos Leeshare his story.
SPEAKER_00 (01:26):
So, Worry No More, the vulnerable space in that
song was my experience withagoraphobia, which when I was
10, I had.
And it was pretty young to beagoraphobic.
And I know that the definitionof agoraphobia has changed over
the years.
I think in the beginning, it wasmore where like you don't leave
(01:49):
the house and you're peeking outthe windows.
And I think agoraphobia now ismore defined as an extreme level
of avoidant behavior.
It's not just about not leavingthe house.
My version was not leaving thehouse.
So since then, I've workedreally hard to get past that
level of anxiety in myself.
It takes a lot of work, butmusic has afforded me the bridge
(02:13):
to get past all of that stuff.
It helps connect me to people.
It helps connect me to myself.
And so the message of the songis like, there's an open door.
It's there for you if you wantit.
No one's going to push you out.
No one's going to say, get out.
No one's going to tell you thatit's too scary to leave but it's
(02:34):
just there when you need it andsometimes when you're
experiencing extreme anxiety ihonestly just need someone to
see you and to hear you and tobe there and listen and be soft
with you because so many folkswho struggle with anxiety are
hard on themselves and theirinternal language is so intense
at times that it's just like heyyou know it's cool it's there
(02:57):
for you when you need it
SPEAKER_03 (03:00):
well you know i'm really was curious about that
time in your life because youmentioned trauma during that
time.
And I'm wondering, did that leadto the agoraphobia and what was
going on during that time?
SPEAKER_00 (03:12):
There was a lot of transitions for me at that time.
We moved a bunch.
We had new people in our lives,which I would prefer not
specify, but I had some physicaltrauma that was going on with me
at the time that was just toomuch.
And I didn't know...
At that time, really how toprocess it.
(03:35):
So I created this intenseunderstanding of the world that
would protect me.
So in other words, I created amonster outside of myself so I
didn't have to go and experienceany more trauma.
SPEAKER_03 (03:53):
So it was a way of protection for you.
I think
SPEAKER_00 (03:56):
it was, yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (03:57):
You know, being agoraphobic at that age would be
difficult because you got to goto school.
I mean, how did you get to apoint where you were able to get
out of the house?
SPEAKER_00 (04:10):
So fortunately or unfortunately, my main time of
my agoraphobia as a child wasduring the summer.
And when school came backaround, I was better.
I wasn't completelyreacclimated, but I was more...
open to going out and doingstuff.
And that was cool.
(04:31):
I wasn't a super troubled kid.
So I just want to make thatclear.
Like, I was a pretty happy kid.
We all have our struggles.
We all have our demons.
But some of us just are bornwith these kind of
sensitivities.
And my depression, I mean, itwas my whole life.
(04:52):
I'm pretty sure I was born witha level of that and with
anxiety.
And so I was a pretty happy kidoverall.
But when I experienced some ofthe traumas, when I was like,
nope, not going out for a littlewhile.
I'm going to sit right here andnot freak out.
But I got better.
(05:12):
Then I started experiencing, asI got older, more of the classic
anxiety.
depression symptoms.
Being in the 90s, we didn'treally think of mental health
the same way we think of it now.
I didn't tell anybody about it.
And when your parents are busyand when you don't really have
(05:33):
any siblings, you can hide alot.
And I've listened to a lot ofpodcasts about kids and
teenagers who have gone throughtraumas and a lot of how it's
hidden, how it stays hidden.
So I really applaud people forcoming out and talking about it.
especially young people who makethemselves vulnerable, just
expressing it is a huge thing.
(05:53):
And honestly, just seeing it isa huge thing.
SPEAKER_03 (05:58):
Yeah, I totally agree.
I mean, as a child, there's somany things that we are not
aware of.
And if there is family historyof depression or anxiety, there
are different things that couldtrigger it.
And we're never prepared forthat.
And I know you had mentionedsomething about how anxiety and
depression is part of yourfamily history.
SPEAKER_00 (06:20):
Just getting to the root of it is like so important.
And I'm just going to just becompletely open with you.
Like I was loved as a child.
Like I wasn't cast aside and Ihad good parenting and lots of
love.
But sometimes anxiety anddepression are just part of how
some people live.
(06:40):
Like, that's just how it works.
I can just tell you about my ownexperience.
And with anxiety, especially,when I just allow myself to
embrace the fact that I've hadthis my whole life and I might
have it to some degree for therest of it, it doesn't freak me
out.
It's just like, this is going tocome and go.
(07:01):
You're going to feel badsometimes.
You're going to feel bettersometimes.
Just understand that it's notgoing to destroy you.
And you don't have to let itdestroy you.
You can live a healthy life.
You can be happy andwell-adjusted and be loved and
love other people.
But you also have to have theunderstanding that at times this
is going to come back and it'sgoing to flare up and you're
(07:22):
going to have to find ways totreat yourself even better
during those times.
SPEAKER_03 (07:29):
Yeah, it's a lot of trial and error.
And one thing that I always sayabout mental health is to play
detective because that's what Ihad to do with mine.
I have depression and anxiety,and like you said, it flares up
at times.
But to try to figure out what'sgoing on with me physically,
what's going on with mementally, and also what is
triggering me.
(07:49):
You also talked about yourcollege years where things got
rough with panic attacks.
Can you talk about that and whatwas going on during that time?
SPEAKER_00 (08:02):
Yeah, so that was like a whole different era of my
good times with my anxiety.
Sometimes we self-medicate,right?
And it's understandable,especially when you're younger.
I mean, I have friends and somefamily members, frankly, who
have been self-medicating foryears, who are undiagnosed
(08:23):
whatever.
And some folks need more.
Some folks need less.
At that time, it was a bigadjustment period.
Something that I've definitelycome to terms with in myself is
that when I'm in transitionalperiods, college, moving,
whatever, my anxiety is going toflare up.
It just is.
And things can get to be out ofcontrol.
(08:46):
And my college experience was alot of changes.
I moved to South Carolina.
I moved away from all of mysupport system.
I stopped playing basketball.
I was smoking a ton of weed.
I was drinking probably 700Mountain Dews a day.
It was just like I was justgetting high and drinking
(09:06):
Mountain Dew.
Anyone would probably get apanic attack from that.
But it was interesting becausewhen my panic attack started,
first of all, I had no idea whatit was.
I was just like, what'shappening with me?
This is out there.
And they were kind of nonstop.
for the better part of a yearlike i would have multiple panic
(09:29):
attacks a day they talk aboutanticipatory anxiety a lot when
it comes to panic attacks oh ifeel that symptom like oh it's
coming again it's coming againand you freeze and it takes you
over sometimes i think of itlike a wave like if you're in
the ocean and you're staring ata wave and you tense up it just
knocks you over you have nosense of balance Whereas if you
(09:52):
can just stand there and belike, all right, cool, the
wave's going to pass through meand I'll be fine.
That's a way to really get intouch with that thing.
Like, I don't think the physicalsymptoms always change.
I mean, they get better as youget older, the more you deal
with it.
But I think there was somethingelse going on.
Like I was dissociative a bitalso.
And a panic attacks were part ofthat.
(10:15):
I don't know how I got throughit.
And the wild thing about thatis, I was in absolute mental
agony during this time.
Like truly, it was truly agony.
The only time in my life I evergot straight A's.
SPEAKER_03 (10:29):
What?
SPEAKER_00 (10:31):
Yeah.
That is
SPEAKER_03 (10:33):
really wild.
SPEAKER_00 (10:35):
It was wild.
Yeah.
One thing that when things arevery intense for me, I can
really focus because I need toget away from the feelings like
music.
really has been a savior for mein a lot of ways.
Because when I have thosefeelings now, I can go to a song
(10:57):
and a guitar or someone else'ssong and just get lost in it.
And that's been a real beautifulescape for me.
It's not even just an escape.
It's like a pathway.
It's a passage.
SPEAKER_03 (11:11):
Well, it's so funny because when we talk about
music, when you play music, wedon't necessarily think about
the healing properties of it.
We just know that we love it.
We enjoy it.
It distracts us from everydayworries.
When we're in it, we're almostlike this cloud of protection
and you can escape in so manydifferent ways and you can
express in so many differentways.
(11:33):
And then the people that receivethat also feel like a lightened
load with music.
Can you describe, for peoplelike myself who've never had
one, how it feels physically andmentally to have a panic attack?
SPEAKER_00 (11:49):
Like the symptoms of anxiety and panic are different
for everybody.
We all sort of have our ownflavor profile to say so much.
So really what happens is I lookin the mirror and be like, I
don't know who that is.
I don't get it.
And I'll like see my mom andI'll be like, who is, I don't
get it.
So what happens is from what Iunderstand physiologically, like
(12:15):
you're flooded with adrenaline.
So your body is in this, fightor flight hyper state, like when
you would be getting chased bysome kind of big cat or some
predator, we have thesemechanisms in our body that
activate.
And when that happens too much,I just know for myself that part
(12:37):
of you just has to shut downbecause there's too much
happening.
And I don't know what causesthat.
I think it's a protection thing.
I don't know, have you ever beenreally high And you look at your
hand and you're like, dude,what?
Is this my hand?
It's so weird.
You can kind of dissociate alittle bit when you're super
(12:57):
stoned or tripping.
And it's sort of the same waywith a panic attack where you're
just like, I don't get it.
I'm in a fog.
Things are feeling really weirdand I'm spaced out and I can
reach out for things, but Ican't touch them.
They just don't seem quite realto me.
That's how my whole sophomoreyear of college was, that exact
(13:20):
feeling.
And you calm down and yoursystem calms, and then you can
be like, okay, cool, I'm good.
But then once the adrenalinerecedes, it's sort of like when
you run a race or when you'vebeen through an exercise, you
just get exhausted.
I feel crap now because my bodygets so keyed up.
(13:42):
And it's really hard to explainthis.
And one thing...
If your partner is a person whosuffers from panic or anxiety,
it's really hard to explain toyour romantic partner what's
happening to you.
Because I've been through thisand I have friends who go
through this where they're like,I just don't get it.
Like she just freaks out and shecan't calm down.
(14:03):
It's like, just be with her.
She will calm down.
This is temporary and she'sgoing to be okay.
But instead of antagonizing herand trying to fix her or fix
him, Just be there.
Just be present and besupportive.
And if you need to be assertive,be assertive.
I'm not saying let someone runall over you if they're having
(14:27):
an anxiety attack.
So it's complicated because itis so difficult to explain to
someone who doesn't have it.
It's so personal and at the sametime so abstract.
SPEAKER_03 (14:40):
Yeah.
I mean, I know some people havesaid that it's hard for them to
catch their breath.
They feel like they're almostdrowning.
And this feeling of dying, likethey're going to die or
something.
But I'm wondering, what are thethoughts that are going through
your head?
Like the fears that are goingthrough your head?
SPEAKER_00 (14:59):
Well, there's an abundance of options here.
There's a lot of them.
It depends on the situation orthe time.
The classic panic attack stuff,or you're going to lose your
mind.
You're going to die.
You're going to hurt yourself.
You're going to hurt somebodyelse.
These are classic panic attackthings.
A lot of people will get a panicattack when they're driving or
(15:21):
when they're going into a socialsituation.
I've had so many panic attacksgoing into a social situation
where I just have to calm myselfdown and self-talk and be like,
things are going to be cool.
It's control and being out ofcontrol and It's challenging.
Look, I won't sit here and tellyou that it's not challenging
(15:43):
for your friends and for yourparents and for your partners to
understand you.
You hit on something that Ithink is really relevant, which
is it's not just about thepeople talking about their own
mental health issues.
It's about your partnershipsthat surround your mental health
issues as well.
(16:03):
And the way that you interactwith your mental health and the
people around you and the waythat your people interact with
you, being that you may havesome challenging things that get
between things likerelationships, work
relationships.
People who have anxiety anddepression tend to be
self-sabotaging a lot of thetimes.
(16:24):
So it's a really complicated andbig thing.
And I love talking about it andI love supporting my friends
because like a lot of my friendswho do have anxiety and
depression stuff call me becausethey know like I get it and I'm
here and I don't judge you.
And I understand that thestruggle is very real.
SPEAKER_03 (16:48):
Well, you know, as you spoke, it reminds me of your
song Hold You because I felt thelyrics were like, let's say
somebody is feeling down.
And sometimes when you're down,you don't want to have help or
you say, I'm okay.
But in response, it's like, I'mhere for you.
(17:08):
I'm here to support you.
You know, I love you.
And when you're in that space,how is it that, you know, your
support system, how can theybest help you during those
times?
SPEAKER_00 (17:21):
You know, it's just being present, being thoughtful
and having compassion andempathy.
for yourself and for the peoplearound you.
A lot of times when I'm reallyhaving a hard time, I just go
into another place.
Like I'll go into another roomor I'll hold off for a day or
(17:42):
two and just chill depending onhow intense it gets.
But for the most part, let'sjust say you have your inner
child, right?
Let's just hypothetically.
And if you do inner child work,you know what this is about.
And I kind of recommend it.
If you can stomach doing it, youcan dog yourself into it.
(18:03):
It's pretty interesting to goback and visualize what your
little self might be feeling andhow you could support that
person.
And sometimes when I have afriend in need or when I feel in
need, there are just very simplethings.
You know, we have basic humanneeds, right?
We have sleep, we have food, wehave...
(18:26):
connection we have social needsand sometimes we just need to be
held sometimes we just need tobe loved and it's just the
ultimate support like whenyou're a child you cry why is he
crying he's eaten his diapersclean he slept fine i need to be
(18:46):
held i'm crying i need to betouched like all those studies
about touch deprivation andphysical deprivation that
happened to those children andhow negatively affected them.
It's like we, in our society,especially in the last two
years, we've overlooked some ofthat stuff in ourselves.
So there's a basic humanconnection that is reassuring to
(19:10):
us.
And so that's part of it.
It varies.
Sometimes I need to be leftalone.
Sometimes I just want to vent.
I'm not so sure I have ahandbook on how to help me, but
I have a little manual that Icheck every time I have a friend
who might be having a hard time.
Oh
SPEAKER_03 (19:28):
my gosh, you have a manual?
That's amazing.
SPEAKER_00 (19:31):
What is some of the check marks?
It's inserted in my brain.
It's in my brain.
I have to get it out.
Hold on, let me see if I can getthe PDF.
I think
SPEAKER_03 (19:37):
you can.
SPEAKER_00 (19:37):
Yeah, it's really just like, don't overreact to
their overreaction.
Because a lot of times withanxiety...
they're just feelingoverwhelmed.
Don't overreact to theiroverreaction.
Try not to take it personally.
If they're feeling anxious andthey're just going off the rails
a little bit, like try to beobjective, but not cold.
(20:00):
That's a hard thing is how to beobjective when you're with
someone who you love or you carefor, and they're having a hard
time and you can be objective,but not aloof.
I think being aloof is not good,but I think being supportive and
objective is and present at thesame time.
It's not the secret sauce, butit's pretty close.
(20:22):
I think it's really helpful forpeople.
And depression is the same.
Sometimes people want to yank itout of you.
They want to say, why aren't yousmiling?
What's wrong with you?
And you're like, can we justchill and talk?
Because that would help.
SPEAKER_03 (20:37):
Yeah, because sometimes there may not be a
main reason for that.
It could be your body chemistryor Different little triggers and
it's hard to understand, butwhen you're in it, it feels
really bad.
It feels terrible.
But one thing you've talkedabout is perseverance and
persistence, which is what Italk a lot about with mood
(20:59):
disorders because it takes a lotof that sometimes to find your
solutions.
Let's say when you're in adepression, what is it that you
do to kind of survive thosetimes or even try to help
yourself?
SPEAKER_00 (21:13):
Music.
awareness, talking about it.
Trying to understand what you'reputting in your brain is
important too.
Like, let's just say you're at apoint where you can spot your
depression and you canacknowledge it and be proactive
in self-healing.
That's a pretty huge thingbecause I also think there's
(21:36):
part of the anxiety anddepression that wants someone
else to fix it for us.
And I know early in my anxietydays, there are safe people that
you go to who you go, I need youto fix this.
Like I can't do it, only you cando it.
And the truth is that theycan't.
That the person who really holdsthe keys is you.
(21:59):
And so if you have to find someway to communicate with yourself
about your self-healing, thereal kingdom is like, this is in
me.
This is not coming from them.
They're not creating thisproblem for me.
It's me.
And without being self harmfuland saying, oh, I'm a piece of
shit.
(22:19):
Like I keep doing this tomyself.
I'm like, I hate me.
The balance there is it's fine.
It's like archery.
You have to shoot a bow, likejust the right amount of tension
and the right amount of lettinggo is just the right place to
acknowledge that in yourself.
SPEAKER_03 (22:36):
Well, you know, one thing I read about your song,
Seeing Ghosts, is it says itreflects on anxiety that can
often warp our perceptions.
And I totally believe that,right?
Because you get into a fear thateven logically you might know
it's weird to be fearful ofthis, but on the other hand,
(22:57):
you're feeling this fear andit's real.
Can you think of some examplesof anxious thoughts that warped
your perception on something?
SPEAKER_00 (23:06):
I mean, everything, all of them, probably 97% of all
the thoughts I've ever had areanxious, warped thoughts.
I mean, that's just the truth inthe song.
It's kind of particular to whatI'm saying.
Like in the song, it's a bitmore of a relationship and it
really stems from like, there isthis fear of, and I also think
(23:31):
this relates to artists andwriters or painters.
Like you're completely,engrossed in your work like
you're disappearing into yourwork and there are times where
you're living your life andyou're in this fog of existence
be it in your art or be it in arelationship and you're just not
(23:53):
sure where you are anymore youfeel very uncertain of your
state and what your relationshipto the things around you are and
the big fear of the narrator inthat song it's not even a fear
it's There's a deep acceptancein that song.
This person in that song, whichis sort of me, is existing
clearly in this world butdoesn't quite understand what's
(24:15):
happening in the periphery andis afraid that if this world of
fog, this is getting reallyesoteric, but if this world of
fog is real or if he goes intoit, does he ever reappear again?
How do you get in and out ofthese states and For me, it's a
lot about love.
(24:36):
That song is a love song,believe it or not, strangely.
It's about seeing someone whoyou love who doesn't recognize
you or see you anymore.
And that's a bad feeling.
It's just a bad feeling to belike, my heart is still with
you, but I don't even exist toyou anymore.
I'm nothing.
(24:56):
So yeah, it's a complicatedsong, but it is a love song.
SPEAKER_03 (25:03):
Well, you know, you said one thing that I think is
so important, and that's to seeand hear people.
And I was reading somewherewhere they said to be seen and
heard is one of the mostimportant things about
relationships, aboutconnections.
And if you're not, it's reallypainful.
I noticed that a lot of thethings that you say are things
(25:25):
that you've learned throughoutyour life to deal with anxiety
and depression.
But there are other ways, youknow, some people go to therapy
or they might have experiencewith a support group or they may
even try medication that canwork for them.
Have you used any of those othertypes of ways to help with your
mood conditions?
SPEAKER_00 (25:45):
I've been in therapy a bunch of times.
I've never really gone themedication route.
I'm not against it.
I think for some people, it'svery helpful.
Like I have people in my lifewho I love dearly, whose lives
are really much better becauseof meds.
And I have people who have beenon meds who have just decided
(26:06):
it's not right for them and thatthey didn't feel like that was
the healing path they wanted tobe on.
The one place where I would landwith this is if you've tried
exercise and diet and you'vereally made a lot of changes in
your life and you're not feelinglike you're getting any better.
maybe consider a short term onmedication or if you need it
(26:27):
longer term.
The place that I am mostsensitive to for other people is
that despondency where they feelcompletely like nothing is ever
going to help.
I'm never getting better.
This is it.
My life, like everything is justa disaster because I feel that
way sometimes.
(26:48):
I think we all do, but youshouldn't feel that way.
all the time every day you knowif it ebbs and flows cool but i
can experience pleasure and ican experience joy and i can
experience gratefulness andgratitude there have been times
in my life where i could not andthat's when i really have sought
(27:10):
out talk therapy and i've mademajor changes to what i'm
putting in my body and what i'mdoing exercise wise and What
kind of TV I'm watching?
Because I tend to like reallydark stuff.
The darker, the more intense,the more I like it.
But there's a point where mybrain's like, all right, dude,
(27:30):
this is a bit much.
We need to stop and chill andwatch some more Arrested
Development and chill out.
So I think a big part of this isbeing self-aware and finding a
place where you can recognizeyour symptoms and recognize how
bad they might be, but I haven'tgone the meds route, but I've
done tons of therapy and talktherapy and CBT and EDMR.
(27:53):
And I actually really think thatfor some very specific
trauma-related stuff, thatpsychedelic therapy is extremely
helpful and should be thoughtabout seriously.
SPEAKER_03 (28:04):
Well, you know, we had Jesse Leach of Kill Switch
Engage come on and talk aboutmicrodosing with mushrooms.
And I've also had...
Other people talk about EMDR.
What has really worked for youin those, I guess, alternate
therapies?
SPEAKER_00 (28:23):
I haven't had a single experience where I was
like, revelation! Oh my god!Other than being consistently
motivated to try to heal myself.
Therapy has been really helpful.
Honestly, it's like playingmusic is the biggest thing for
me.
(28:44):
Being able to create and playmusic is the greatest medicine
for me.
And it's been the greatestmedicine for me.
Music for me is really the placethat I go to that's the most
healing.
SPEAKER_03 (28:58):
Well, that's wonderful that you're able to
have a career with this and atthe same time just feel so good.
I mean, is there anything elsethat you want to say about
mental health or about yourmusic?
SPEAKER_00 (29:10):
Well, one thing that really helped me in the
beginning was just knowing thatI wasn't the only one.
It wasn't only me who hadanxiety and depression.
It wasn't only me who was havingpanic attacks.
It wasn't only me who felt theseterrible ways that felt
completely out of control.
So it's important.
I would always just say, you'renot alone.
(29:33):
It's really important forsomeone in your life, family,
friend, loved one, partner,child.
it's important for them to knowthat they're not alone.
Even if you can't share it withthem, and even if you can't
necessarily fix it, they're notalone.
And that's an important messagebecause our ultimate existential
fear is aloneness.
(29:55):
So I would share that as my onemore thing.
SPEAKER_03 (29:58):
That sounds like, what is it called?
Those commercials with
SPEAKER_00 (30:01):
the star?
Exactly.
The more you know.
The
SPEAKER_03 (30:04):
more you know.
Well, thank you so much, AmosLee.
Dreamland is now available, andmake sure to go and catch Amos
Lee on tour.
SPEAKER_00 (30:14):
Please come out.
I will give you the good vibes,I promise.
I will be there for you and allof your mental health needs on
stage.
SPEAKER_03 (30:27):
Next, clinical psychologist Dr.
Melissa Boudin will educate uson panic attacks and the methods
you can learn to calm them.
Dr.
Boudin is also the clinicaldirector of ChoosingTherapy.com
and will explain how onlinetherapy can be an effective
alternative to in-person officevisits.
I'm also excited to announce abenefit show to raise funds for
(30:49):
mental health.
On April 24th at the Hard RockCafe in Hollywood, the LA Rock
Collective will host the Rockfor Life show, an all-ages show
featuring some of the best localbands in Los Angeles.
The show will benefit the MentalHealth Fund for Sweet Relief and
the Check Your Head podcast, andfor$20 pre-sale tickets, visit
(31:10):
checkyourheadpodcast.com orrockcollective.net.
Now let's hear our mental healthexpert, Dr.
Melissa Boudin, share herknowledge and advice on panic
attacks.
You know, after listening toAmos Lee's interview, was there
anything that stood out to youabout his mental health journey?
(31:30):
First, it's very
SPEAKER_02 (31:30):
inspiring, but what stood out to me the most was his
self-awareness and his opennessin his story and also just his
encouragement of others throughhis journey.
And towards the end, and hetalked about the most important
thing for people to know is thatthey're not alone and that they
hold the key to their ownhealing.
(31:52):
And I love that he encouragesothers to be proactive in their
healing and to not expect orwant others to fix it for them.
As a psychologist, that's reallyimportant to the work that I do
because therapists are there tosupport and to be your sounding
board and to help you inlearning skills that we can't
learn them for you when we can'tdo them for you.
(32:13):
So when people have thatparticular perspective, they
almost always have goodoutcomes, not just in therapy,
but in their mental healthjourney.
SPEAKER_03 (32:21):
The thing is, is that when you're in a mood
disorder, it's difficult.
to reach your hand out and askfor help and really take the
steps to get help because you'reexhausted and you're scared.
But just the importance oftaking that first step in
believing that there's therapythat can help.
(32:41):
We've had quite a few musicianson the podcast talk about panic
attacks.
Can you first explain what apanic attack is?
SPEAKER_02 (32:50):
Panic attacks are...
These relatively short periodsof really overwhelming fear or
anxiety.
And I say relatively shortbecause while they last
typically around 10 minutes,that 10 minutes can feel like a
really long time to the personwho is experiencing it.
And the intensity of a panicattack goes well beyond normal
(33:12):
anxiety.
And it can include a number ofphysical symptoms like your
heart pounding, sweating,trembling, shaking.
shortness of breath, chest pain,all of these things.
It can even include feelingdetached from yourself.
You can see why during panicattacks, especially during first
panic attacks, they often fearthat they're having a heart
(33:34):
attack or they can't breathe orthey're dying or losing control.
So it can be scary.
There are bodies alarm system orfight or flight system going
haywire.
And we all have this built-infight or flight system.
powered by adrenaline.
It's meant to do these thingsvery purposefully.
(33:54):
Increase your heart rate, yourbreathing, get blood flowing to
your body in response to danger.
It's key to our survival.
And ordinarily, it works reallywell.
And some people, though, theresponse is either totally out
of proportion to whatever stressis going on, or it can even come
on without stress at all,causing a panic attack.
SPEAKER_03 (34:15):
Right.
Just kind of like out of theblue, seemingly out of the blue.
Yes,
SPEAKER_02 (34:19):
absolutely.
SPEAKER_03 (34:21):
Amos was talking about how depression and anxiety
is a family history thing forhim.
Throughout his life, he'sfigured out different ways to
kind of soothe himself.
He did talk about a time when hestarted getting panic attacks in
college.
He mentioned drinking tons ofMountain Dew, doing tons of pot,
(34:41):
not exercising.
Can you tell us some of thecommon triggers that can
preclude panic
SPEAKER_02 (34:48):
attacks?
First, caffeine is certainlyone.
It's a stimulant and it has thesame effects on your body that a
frightening or threatening eventwould.
So very much can stimulate thatfight or flight response.
And the same with both caffeineand cannabis have recognized
disorders from the AmericanPsychiatric Association that are
(35:12):
related to anxiety.
There's caffeine-induced anxietyand cannabis-induced anxiety.
So those are both certainlytriggers.
Stressful situations as well,you know, a fight with a spouse
or work stress can contribute tothem.
Other things you ingest cancontribute to them as well.
Some over-the-countermedications, prescription
medications, weight loss drugs,alcohol.
(35:35):
There's several things outsideof the typical stressful
situations as well.
SPEAKER_03 (35:40):
And he also mentioned social situations,
like social anxiety, wherepeople can get really nervous,
you know, with a crowd of peopleor whatever the situation is.
SPEAKER_02 (35:50):
100%.
It can be something that you andI might take for granted.
Going to the grocery store,taking even your dog for a walk
and being fearful you might runinto somebody.
These super simple things can bereally challenging and anxiety
provoking for people and theyend up then avoiding them.
SPEAKER_03 (36:07):
Sometimes I think when people think of coffee or
caffeine or Mountain Dew, theythink of something that's going
to give them energy opposed tosomething that might cause them
anxiety and get them jittery.
And I'm just going to speak frommy own experience because I take
supplements.
I take a B-complex, and I findthat not only does the B-complex
(36:30):
give me energy, but it alsoseems to calm me at the same
time.
It keeps me very level mentally.
It
SPEAKER_02 (36:39):
really just depends on your body chemistry as well.
For example, individuals withADHD, they need a stimulant in
order to be calm and level.
So it depends on body chemistryand then also depends on the
supplement and the way that yourbody metabolizes it.
But there are certain things andcertain people who can have that
jolt of energy and remain calmand there are others and
(37:02):
particularly in combination withother situations or other
stressors that that same Bcomplex or that same regular cup
of coffee mixed with somethingelse going on in their life can
then cause panic or anxiety.
SPEAKER_03 (37:16):
Okay.
And as a psychologist, somebodyis experiencing a panic attack.
What are some methods thatpeople can use that they can
also learn in therapy to soothethat panic attack while it's
happening?
SPEAKER_02 (37:29):
The most classic techniques are cognitive
behavioral techniques, andthey're focused around either
retraining your breathing,grounding your body or your
mind, or having some type ofmindfulness.
So The three that I think arethe most popular are retraining
(37:49):
your breathing.
When people have panic attacks,they almost always show some
signs of hyperventilating orover-breathing.
And when this happens, yourbrain gets less oxygen and then
that can lead to dizziness andconfusion and the other symptoms
that we see with panic attacks,as well as your body gets less
oxygen, then you get numb ortingly.
It's this kind of vicious cyclethat starts with
(38:11):
hyperventilating or thebreathing.
And so breathing retrainingteaches you to breathe slowly
from your diaphragm.
And it's really this quick,simple way to reach a relaxed
state or to tap into yourrelaxation response.
And it's super easy.
It's sitting down comfortably,laying on a bed, breathing in
(38:33):
through your nose for fourseconds, holding it for two,
breathing out for six, andrepeat and exhaling for longer
and longer each time.
And you want to practice it forthe first times, not while
you're having a panic attack, tobuild up that confidence and
build up the skills so thatyou're able to use it to calm
your breathing, which then inturn calms the rest of the
(38:54):
symptoms that are happening, thebodily sensations.
And then two big things that Ilove that they're really popular
right now, and there's all theseapps out right now for them, are
practicing mindfulness and alsomeditation.
Those two things go hand inhand.
And then muscle relaxation.
So learning to tense and releasemuscles on command, getting to
(39:16):
the point where you're able justto release your muscle tension,
and that reduces the anxiety.
SPEAKER_03 (39:20):
I'm really curious about meditation.
I always seem to ask about itbecause people, that do it,
swear by it, as far as helpingtheir anxiety and panic attacks,
what is really the mechanism ofmeditation by doing that on a
regular basis on our minds andour brains?
(39:40):
So
SPEAKER_02 (39:41):
it grounds you in the moment and in your present
reality.
It also helps you to recognizethe emotional state that you're
in and reduces stress and helpsyou relax because you're in that
moment.
You're shutting out the rest ofthe world.
We don't focus on our currentmoment.
We're always thinking about thenext thing or what is the to-do
(40:02):
list or whatever it may be.
And we are not present to ouremotions.
We're not present to ourphysical sensations in our body.
And when we do that, things cango awry.
So it's just about being presentin your body, being present in
the moment, and recognizing yourbody signals, recognizing your
emotions and what your needsare.
SPEAKER_03 (40:23):
The thing that I'm curious about is when somebody
is in a panic attack, they'renot in the middle of a
meditation.
Let's say they meditate in themorning or they meditate at
night.
The mindfulness, is it alsoslowing down the racing brain
with meditation?
Because I noticed that withmyself is that it almost forces
(40:43):
you to not only relax your mind,but also relax your body and all
the other parts of your body.
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_02 (40:51):
And also a piece of it is, in part of Amos'
interview, he was talking aboutfeeling outside of his body.
And mindfulness can be somethingthat helps you connect back to
your body and into your presentreality.
And where am I?
What room am I in?
Yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_03 (41:08):
One thing I really loved about Amos Lee is that he
talked about his support system.
What are some ways a loved onecould support somebody who is
experiencing a panic attack?
SPEAKER_02 (41:21):
The big things are asking how you can help,
validating their distress,validating them just in general.
Asking how you can help isimportant and ask not during the
middle of a panic attack, but ifyou know that somebody you love
experiences them, asking themahead of time when one occurs,
how can you help them?
These are individuals who, youknow, we always have to remember
(41:43):
they know best what they need.
They have go-to coping methods.
it just may be difficult forthem to think of what they are
in the moment.
And so if you know them and youask them how you can help and
you know what those copingstrategies are, you can remind
them in the moment when ithappens.
And then validating is soimportant because people
typically have a really hardtime sharing their experiences
with mental health issues.
And that includes panic attacksbecause they think others may
(42:07):
judge them or they won'tunderstand or they don't really
bother by talking about it.
So just validating someone andsaying, no, that is really
tough.
I'm sorry that you experiencedthat.
let me know what I can do tosupport you, can be so
meaningful to people and letthem know that they have a safe
space to go to.
Other things are remaining calm.
It's a scary situation, but ifyou can remain calm and be that
(42:28):
face of calm, that's going to beimportant for the person.
Yeah, I think that those are thebig things.
SPEAKER_03 (42:34):
I love the fact you talk about validating because I
think sometimes when people aregoing through anxiety or
depression, it may not makesense to the other person.
For instance, We're talkingabout panic attacks that seem to
come out of the blue or clinicaldepression that may not be
caused by trauma.
It could be caused by somethingphysical.
(42:54):
It could be caused by hormonalimbalance.
But what happens sometimes ispeople will say, well, don't
feel that way or don't bedepressed.
What do you have to be depressedabout?
Or why are you nervous?
There's nothing to be nervousabout.
And that can be, it can behurtful because it's not
validating how they're actuallyfeeling.
SPEAKER_02 (43:15):
Yeah, and creating a space where they don't have a
person to trust and they weretrusting in you by sharing it
with you.
And then each person that shutsthem down that way makes it
harder and harder for them totalk about it typically.
SPEAKER_03 (43:27):
Well, I know support groups are really important for
depression and anxiety.
I know I went to one when I wasin a really bad space, but I
wanted to know what you believethe importance is in sharing
your story with somebody else.
The big
SPEAKER_02 (43:46):
things are outside of validation, but it's also
normalizing your experience.
Is my experience normal?
I think a lot of people arequestioning that when they have
a panic attack, particularly forthe first time, and they may
think they're very alone.
It's a very lonely feeling.
And so knowing that you're notalone and that other people are
experiencing the same thing youare in the same way, and having
(44:07):
that group to go through thatexperience with and learn with
and talk about coping strategieswith and what's working for
them, and just having thatcommunity.
SPEAKER_03 (44:17):
It really is kind of a therapeutic process because of
all those things that you said.
There's so much knowledge andexperience that can be shared
and especially compassion andempathy because they've gone
through it themselves.
And who better to learn from butsomebody who's had the
(44:37):
experience?
And I also wanted to emphasizethat sometimes people, when they
think of therapy, they think,oh, it's just talking.
But it's also about learningdifferent strategies and being
guided on how to practice thesestrategies.
And just, you know, somebodythere to kind of lead you and
(44:58):
guide you.
SPEAKER_02 (44:58):
The therapist isn't going to be able to fix it for
you, but they will lead the way,you know, shine the light on the
path and you have to do thework.
And sometimes you have to climbthe hill and strap on the gear
and all of the things, but youhave to do the work, but it is
so worth it.
SPEAKER_03 (45:15):
Right.
It's work that really allows youto have a better, brighter life
that you can take with youthroughout your life.
One thing that Amos did duringhis panic attacks is that he
would use positive self-talk.
Can you give me some examples ofpositive self-talk that you can
do while you're in a panicattack?
SPEAKER_02 (45:37):
Yeah, and also why it works, right?
Like when someone's having apanic attack, there's a lot of
negative self-talk that goesthrough their mind.
You know, I'm going crazy, I'mgoing to die, I'm having a heart
attack.
So knowing what those negativeself-talk statements are and
being able to replace them withpositive ones can be very
healing.
Some of them can be, this is notan emergency, or I can feel like
(46:00):
this and still be okay.
This has happened before and Iwas okay, I'll be okay this time
too.
I can handle these symptoms.
I can handle these sensations.
Nothing dangerous is happeningright now.
All of those things and justrepeating those to yourself over
and over again.
SPEAKER_03 (46:15):
Amos Lee said music was one of the best therapies
for him.
And I know that when I wasplaying music and when I
listened to music, there'ssomething about it that puts you
in a very present state.
In other words, you really can'tthink of anything else but the
(46:35):
music when you're playing orwhen you're listening to it
because it's so engaging.
And I feel like it kind of givesyour mind a break, you know, if
you're in distress or something.
SPEAKER_02 (46:44):
I mean, music is one of the number one things that
comes up in therapy.
When I talk to somebody aboutcoping strategies for someone
who might be depressed orexperiencing anxiety and what
used to make them happy, One ofthe things that falls off, but
one of the easiest things to putback in to your life is music.
And you would be so shocked.
(47:05):
You wouldn't be so shocked, butI think many people would be
shocked at what a difference itcan make because of those
things.
Music not only can bring youinto a present moment, but it
can also bring back memories.
So if you're playing music, froma time in your life when you
were really happy or you feltjoy, it ignites those same
feelings and emotions in you.
It's really powerful.
(47:25):
Just like certain smells can do,or you have these deja vu
moments, music can be that aswell.
SPEAKER_03 (47:31):
Right.
And also to be conscious aboutthe kind of music that you put
in your head, because that canalso affect how you think and
how you feel.
If you want to be uplifted, it'sgood to choose music that's
going to do that for you,opposed to something really sad.
Although sometimes sad songs canmake us happy.
(47:51):
Totally.
And the same thing goes with
SPEAKER_02 (47:54):
music, TV as well, social media.
Being really mindful of whatyou're ingesting just through
your mind and your eyes isreally important because you
want it to match the mood youwant to have, particularly if
you're feeling down or you'refeeling anxious.
SPEAKER_03 (48:08):
Well, you know, you're also the clinical
director of Choosing Therapy, anonline telehealth therapy And I
wanted to thank you so much forthe article on the Best Mental
Health Podcast for 2022.
I was honored and thrilled thatthe Check Your Head podcast was
included in that list.
And I wanted to have you explainmore about choosing therapy
(48:32):
because with a pandemic and evengoing forward, there are a lot
of musicians on tour or peoplein general that just can't go
into an office for whateverreasons.
Can you tell us a little bitmore about how choosing therapy
is different?
SPEAKER_02 (48:47):
You know, video therapy is so convenient.
There's no commute.
You can fit in any part of theday.
If you travel like manymusicians do, you can take the
call from the road.
So it's really increasing accessto that care.
But in terms of what makesthings so unique about our
platform, really the biggestthing is that our director makes
it really easy to find a greattherapist and quickly.
(49:09):
So we have hundreds ofindependently licensed
therapists.
We cover 27 states in the US.
So we have a really broad rangeof therapists and we can really
tailor a match to what somebodyis looking for.
But our directory also showsreal-time availability of our
therapists and allows you tobook with them completely
online.
So you're busy, right?
(49:29):
If you're on the road or you'rea musician, you have time to
call 15 or 20 therapists to findout if they're taking clients,
to find out if they take your...
insurance, whatever it may be,to find out where their next
appointment is.
With ours, you can go online.
You can find the therapist youwant.
You can book with them as soonas the next day, completely
online.
You don't have to talk to aperson if you don't want to.
But if you do, we also have thisamazing team of client
(49:52):
navigators that will help youfind the best match for
yourself, answer any questionsyou have, and help you get
booked.
SPEAKER_03 (49:59):
That's really great because when somebody's in a
mood disorder, it's important toget immediate attention because
You never know when that desiremight lapse.
And there's also a lot ofconditions like agoraphobia or
even depression where it's hardto get out of the house and
(50:19):
different situations wherepeople may just have their phone
or their computer in front ofthem and may not have the way to
get to somebody's office.
And I do find that thankfullywith the pandemic, we've gotten
used to Zoom and doing thisthing online.
And we're finding that it's verypersonal.
We don't necessarily have to bein a room with somebody to have
(50:41):
a personal connection.
SPEAKER_02 (50:42):
Absolutely.
And just speaking for manypeople in my profession, we were
all a little bit worried movinginto the video space because for
so many years has reallyclassically been you in the same
room with somebody.
But a couple months in, we wereall so...
pleasantly surprised by theoutcomes and by the connections
we were able to make with peoplevia video.
(51:03):
And that it was just as good, ifnot better, because then you
sold their space.
Now we're seeing the client'sspace in their lives in a much
different way than we would inour office.
And it can actually be moreadvantageous to the healing
process than having them in anoffice where it's not their
space.
SPEAKER_03 (51:20):
Another thing that can be an advantage is that some
people might want to stayanonymous.
And they may not want to turn ontheir video, but they may want
to talk with you.
Maybe it's a celebrity orsomebody that is a notable
musician that wants to keepthings on the down low.
You're able to do that a littlebetter online.
(51:40):
Is there anything else that youwould like to say about mental
health or about choosingtherapy?
The biggest thing that I want tosay is
SPEAKER_02 (51:48):
very similar to Amos, is that you hold the key
to your healing.
And there are people who want tohelp you, who are literally
dedicating their lives tohelping you.
And with choosing therapy, youcan go and you can find a
therapist.
You don't need to talk toanybody.
If you're nervous about talkingto someone, you can book with
(52:08):
that therapist.
You can be seen the next day.
You can begin healing as quicklyas possible.
So if they're on the fence, ifthey've been thinking about it
for a long time or short time,just to try it because it's an
incredible experience.
SPEAKER_03 (52:22):
A big thank you to our musical guest, Amos Lee, and
our mental health expert, Dr.
Melissa Boudin.
For more information on AmosLee, his Dreamland Tour, and his
Tickets for Teachers programthat gives away free tickets to
teachers and also raises fundsfor school supplies, visit
amoslee.com.
(52:42):
Stay tuned to listen to a clipof his single, Worry No More.
And for more information on Dr.
Melissa Boudin and ChoosingTherapy, visit
choosingtherapy.com.
And purchase your tickets to theApril 24th Benefit Show for
Mental Health atcheckyourheadpodcast.com or
rockcollective.net.
So until next time, be brave,ask for help, and be persistent
(53:06):
in finding the mental healththat you
SPEAKER_01 (53:08):
need.
SPEAKER_03 (53:39):
Check Your Head Podcast is kindly supported and
partnered with Sweet ReliefMusicians Fund, DBSA San Gabriel
Valley, Earshot Media, and LemonTree Studios in Los Angeles.
Visit checkyourheadpodcast.comwhere we have over 100 solutions
for mental health.
Be our friends on social mediaat Check Your Head Podcast.
(54:00):
Watch us on YouTube and supportus with a kind donation on
checkyourheadpodcast.com.
Check Your Head podcast issponsored by a 501c3 nonprofit
with all donations being taxdeductible.
Thank you for your support andthank you for listening.
Welcome to the Check Your Head podcast, the podcast
where notable musicians andexperts share their stories and
solutions for mental health andwellness.
I'm your host, Mari Fong, amusic journalist and life coach
for musicians, and today I havea question for you.
Have you ever experienced apanic attack?
(00:23):
Well, our featured musiciantoday has spent his life coping
with panic attacks and evenbecame agoraphobic, unable to
leave his house at the tenderage of 10.
Yet this artist has learned tocope and overcome his anxiety to
tour with the likes of NorahJones, Van Morrison, Adele, and
even the boss, BruceSpringsteen.
(00:44):
Today we have the great AmosLee, who will share his panic
attack tools for recovery, andwho recently dropped his sixth
album called Dreamland.
We'll also play a clip of hissingle, Worry No More, at the
end of our episode.
Next, we have clinicalpsychologist Dr.
Melissa Boudin, who will explainthe breathing exercises and
other skills taught in therapythat are most effective to calm
(01:08):
panic attacks.
Dr.
Boudin will also share howtelehealth or online therapy
using your computer or phonescreen can be especially helpful
and effective while on tour orin the comfort of your home.
But first, let's hear Amos Leeshare his story.
SPEAKER_00 (01:26):
So, Worry No More, the vulnerable space in that
song was my experience withagoraphobia, which when I was
10, I had.
And it was pretty young to beagoraphobic.
And I know that the definitionof agoraphobia has changed over
the years.
I think in the beginning, it wasmore where like you don't leave
(01:49):
the house and you're peeking outthe windows.
And I think agoraphobia now ismore defined as an extreme level
of avoidant behavior.
It's not just about not leavingthe house.
My version was not leaving thehouse.
So since then, I've workedreally hard to get past that
level of anxiety in myself.
It takes a lot of work, butmusic has afforded me the bridge
(02:13):
to get past all of that stuff.
It helps connect me to people.
It helps connect me to myself.
And so the message of the songis like, there's an open door.
It's there for you if you wantit.
No one's going to push you out.
No one's going to say, get out.
No one's going to tell you thatit's too scary to leave but it's
(02:34):
just there when you need it andsometimes when you're
experiencing extreme anxiety ihonestly just need someone to
see you and to hear you and tobe there and listen and be soft
with you because so many folkswho struggle with anxiety are
hard on themselves and theirinternal language is so intense
at times that it's just like heyyou know it's cool it's there
(02:57):
for you when you need it
SPEAKER_03 (03:00):
well you know i'm really was curious about that
time in your life because youmentioned trauma during that
time.
And I'm wondering, did that leadto the agoraphobia and what was
going on during that time?
SPEAKER_00 (03:12):
There was a lot of transitions for me at that time.
We moved a bunch.
We had new people in our lives,which I would prefer not
specify, but I had some physicaltrauma that was going on with me
at the time that was just toomuch.
And I didn't know...
At that time, really how toprocess it.
(03:35):
So I created this intenseunderstanding of the world that
would protect me.
So in other words, I created amonster outside of myself so I
didn't have to go and experienceany more trauma.
SPEAKER_03 (03:53):
So it was a way of protection for you.
I think
SPEAKER_00 (03:56):
it was, yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (03:57):
You know, being agoraphobic at that age would be
difficult because you got to goto school.
I mean, how did you get to apoint where you were able to get
out of the house?
SPEAKER_00 (04:10):
So fortunately or unfortunately, my main time of
my agoraphobia as a child wasduring the summer.
And when school came backaround, I was better.
I wasn't completelyreacclimated, but I was more...
open to going out and doingstuff.
And that was cool.
(04:31):
I wasn't a super troubled kid.
So I just want to make thatclear.
Like, I was a pretty happy kid.
We all have our struggles.
We all have our demons.
But some of us just are bornwith these kind of
sensitivities.
And my depression, I mean, itwas my whole life.
(04:52):
I'm pretty sure I was born witha level of that and with
anxiety.
And so I was a pretty happy kidoverall.
But when I experienced some ofthe traumas, when I was like,
nope, not going out for a littlewhile.
I'm going to sit right here andnot freak out.
But I got better.
(05:12):
Then I started experiencing, asI got older, more of the classic
anxiety.
depression symptoms.
Being in the 90s, we didn'treally think of mental health
the same way we think of it now.
I didn't tell anybody about it.
And when your parents are busyand when you don't really have
(05:33):
any siblings, you can hide alot.
And I've listened to a lot ofpodcasts about kids and
teenagers who have gone throughtraumas and a lot of how it's
hidden, how it stays hidden.
So I really applaud people forcoming out and talking about it.
especially young people who makethemselves vulnerable, just
expressing it is a huge thing.
(05:53):
And honestly, just seeing it isa huge thing.
SPEAKER_03 (05:58):
Yeah, I totally agree.
I mean, as a child, there's somany things that we are not
aware of.
And if there is family historyof depression or anxiety, there
are different things that couldtrigger it.
And we're never prepared forthat.
And I know you had mentionedsomething about how anxiety and
depression is part of yourfamily history.
SPEAKER_00 (06:20):
Just getting to the root of it is like so important.
And I'm just going to just becompletely open with you.
Like I was loved as a child.
Like I wasn't cast aside and Ihad good parenting and lots of
love.
But sometimes anxiety anddepression are just part of how
some people live.
(06:40):
Like, that's just how it works.
I can just tell you about my ownexperience.
And with anxiety, especially,when I just allow myself to
embrace the fact that I've hadthis my whole life and I might
have it to some degree for therest of it, it doesn't freak me
out.
It's just like, this is going tocome and go.
(07:01):
You're going to feel badsometimes.
You're going to feel bettersometimes.
Just understand that it's notgoing to destroy you.
And you don't have to let itdestroy you.
You can live a healthy life.
You can be happy andwell-adjusted and be loved and
love other people.
But you also have to have theunderstanding that at times this
is going to come back and it'sgoing to flare up and you're
(07:22):
going to have to find ways totreat yourself even better
during those times.
SPEAKER_03 (07:29):
Yeah, it's a lot of trial and error.
And one thing that I always sayabout mental health is to play
detective because that's what Ihad to do with mine.
I have depression and anxiety,and like you said, it flares up
at times.
But to try to figure out what'sgoing on with me physically,
what's going on with mementally, and also what is
triggering me.
(07:49):
You also talked about yourcollege years where things got
rough with panic attacks.
Can you talk about that and whatwas going on during that time?
SPEAKER_00 (08:02):
Yeah, so that was like a whole different era of my
good times with my anxiety.
Sometimes we self-medicate,right?
And it's understandable,especially when you're younger.
I mean, I have friends and somefamily members, frankly, who
have been self-medicating foryears, who are undiagnosed
(08:23):
whatever.
And some folks need more.
Some folks need less.
At that time, it was a bigadjustment period.
Something that I've definitelycome to terms with in myself is
that when I'm in transitionalperiods, college, moving,
whatever, my anxiety is going toflare up.
It just is.
And things can get to be out ofcontrol.
(08:46):
And my college experience was alot of changes.
I moved to South Carolina.
I moved away from all of mysupport system.
I stopped playing basketball.
I was smoking a ton of weed.
I was drinking probably 700Mountain Dews a day.
It was just like I was justgetting high and drinking
(09:06):
Mountain Dew.
Anyone would probably get apanic attack from that.
But it was interesting becausewhen my panic attack started,
first of all, I had no idea whatit was.
I was just like, what'shappening with me?
This is out there.
And they were kind of nonstop.
for the better part of a yearlike i would have multiple panic
(09:29):
attacks a day they talk aboutanticipatory anxiety a lot when
it comes to panic attacks oh ifeel that symptom like oh it's
coming again it's coming againand you freeze and it takes you
over sometimes i think of itlike a wave like if you're in
the ocean and you're staring ata wave and you tense up it just
knocks you over you have nosense of balance Whereas if you
(09:52):
can just stand there and belike, all right, cool, the
wave's going to pass through meand I'll be fine.
That's a way to really get intouch with that thing.
Like, I don't think the physicalsymptoms always change.
I mean, they get better as youget older, the more you deal
with it.
But I think there was somethingelse going on.
Like I was dissociative a bitalso.
And a panic attacks were part ofthat.
(10:15):
I don't know how I got throughit.
And the wild thing about thatis, I was in absolute mental
agony during this time.
Like truly, it was truly agony.
The only time in my life I evergot straight A's.
SPEAKER_03 (10:29):
What?
SPEAKER_00 (10:31):
Yeah.
That is
SPEAKER_03 (10:33):
really wild.
SPEAKER_00 (10:35):
It was wild.
Yeah.
One thing that when things arevery intense for me, I can
really focus because I need toget away from the feelings like
music.
really has been a savior for mein a lot of ways.
Because when I have thosefeelings now, I can go to a song
(10:57):
and a guitar or someone else'ssong and just get lost in it.
And that's been a real beautifulescape for me.
It's not even just an escape.
It's like a pathway.
It's a passage.
SPEAKER_03 (11:11):
Well, it's so funny because when we talk about
music, when you play music, wedon't necessarily think about
the healing properties of it.
We just know that we love it.
We enjoy it.
It distracts us from everydayworries.
When we're in it, we're almostlike this cloud of protection
and you can escape in so manydifferent ways and you can
express in so many differentways.
(11:33):
And then the people that receivethat also feel like a lightened
load with music.
Can you describe, for peoplelike myself who've never had
one, how it feels physically andmentally to have a panic attack?
SPEAKER_00 (11:49):
Like the symptoms of anxiety and panic are different
for everybody.
We all sort of have our ownflavor profile to say so much.
So really what happens is I lookin the mirror and be like, I
don't know who that is.
I don't get it.
And I'll like see my mom andI'll be like, who is, I don't
get it.
So what happens is from what Iunderstand physiologically, like
(12:15):
you're flooded with adrenaline.
So your body is in this, fightor flight hyper state, like when
you would be getting chased bysome kind of big cat or some
predator, we have thesemechanisms in our body that
activate.
And when that happens too much,I just know for myself that part
(12:37):
of you just has to shut downbecause there's too much
happening.
And I don't know what causesthat.
I think it's a protection thing.
I don't know, have you ever beenreally high And you look at your
hand and you're like, dude,what?
Is this my hand?
It's so weird.
You can kind of dissociate alittle bit when you're super
(12:57):
stoned or tripping.
And it's sort of the same waywith a panic attack where you're
just like, I don't get it.
I'm in a fog.
Things are feeling really weirdand I'm spaced out and I can
reach out for things, but Ican't touch them.
They just don't seem quite realto me.
That's how my whole sophomoreyear of college was, that exact
(13:20):
feeling.
And you calm down and yoursystem calms, and then you can
be like, okay, cool, I'm good.
But then once the adrenalinerecedes, it's sort of like when
you run a race or when you'vebeen through an exercise, you
just get exhausted.
I feel crap now because my bodygets so keyed up.
(13:42):
And it's really hard to explainthis.
And one thing...
If your partner is a person whosuffers from panic or anxiety,
it's really hard to explain toyour romantic partner what's
happening to you.
Because I've been through thisand I have friends who go
through this where they're like,I just don't get it.
Like she just freaks out and shecan't calm down.
(14:03):
It's like, just be with her.
She will calm down.
This is temporary and she'sgoing to be okay.
But instead of antagonizing herand trying to fix her or fix
him, Just be there.
Just be present and besupportive.
And if you need to be assertive,be assertive.
I'm not saying let someone runall over you if they're having
(14:27):
an anxiety attack.
So it's complicated because itis so difficult to explain to
someone who doesn't have it.
It's so personal and at the sametime so abstract.
SPEAKER_03 (14:40):
Yeah.
I mean, I know some people havesaid that it's hard for them to
catch their breath.
They feel like they're almostdrowning.
And this feeling of dying, likethey're going to die or
something.
But I'm wondering, what are thethoughts that are going through
your head?
Like the fears that are goingthrough your head?
SPEAKER_00 (14:59):
Well, there's an abundance of options here.
There's a lot of them.
It depends on the situation orthe time.
The classic panic attack stuff,or you're going to lose your
mind.
You're going to die.
You're going to hurt yourself.
You're going to hurt somebodyelse.
These are classic panic attackthings.
A lot of people will get a panicattack when they're driving or
(15:21):
when they're going into a socialsituation.
I've had so many panic attacksgoing into a social situation
where I just have to calm myselfdown and self-talk and be like,
things are going to be cool.
It's control and being out ofcontrol and It's challenging.
Look, I won't sit here and tellyou that it's not challenging
(15:43):
for your friends and for yourparents and for your partners to
understand you.
You hit on something that Ithink is really relevant, which
is it's not just about thepeople talking about their own
mental health issues.
It's about your partnershipsthat surround your mental health
issues as well.
(16:03):
And the way that you interactwith your mental health and the
people around you and the waythat your people interact with
you, being that you may havesome challenging things that get
between things likerelationships, work
relationships.
People who have anxiety anddepression tend to be
self-sabotaging a lot of thetimes.
(16:24):
So it's a really complicated andbig thing.
And I love talking about it andI love supporting my friends
because like a lot of my friendswho do have anxiety and
depression stuff call me becausethey know like I get it and I'm
here and I don't judge you.
And I understand that thestruggle is very real.
SPEAKER_03 (16:48):
Well, you know, as you spoke, it reminds me of your
song Hold You because I felt thelyrics were like, let's say
somebody is feeling down.
And sometimes when you're down,you don't want to have help or
you say, I'm okay.
But in response, it's like, I'mhere for you.
(17:08):
I'm here to support you.
You know, I love you.
And when you're in that space,how is it that, you know, your
support system, how can theybest help you during those
times?
SPEAKER_00 (17:21):
You know, it's just being present, being thoughtful
and having compassion andempathy.
for yourself and for the peoplearound you.
A lot of times when I'm reallyhaving a hard time, I just go
into another place.
Like I'll go into another roomor I'll hold off for a day or
(17:42):
two and just chill depending onhow intense it gets.
But for the most part, let'sjust say you have your inner
child, right?
Let's just hypothetically.
And if you do inner child work,you know what this is about.
And I kind of recommend it.
If you can stomach doing it, youcan dog yourself into it.
(18:03):
It's pretty interesting to goback and visualize what your
little self might be feeling andhow you could support that
person.
And sometimes when I have afriend in need or when I feel in
need, there are just very simplethings.
You know, we have basic humanneeds, right?
We have sleep, we have food, wehave...
(18:26):
connection we have social needsand sometimes we just need to be
held sometimes we just need tobe loved and it's just the
ultimate support like whenyou're a child you cry why is he
crying he's eaten his diapersclean he slept fine i need to be
(18:46):
held i'm crying i need to betouched like all those studies
about touch deprivation andphysical deprivation that
happened to those children andhow negatively affected them.
It's like we, in our society,especially in the last two
years, we've overlooked some ofthat stuff in ourselves.
So there's a basic humanconnection that is reassuring to
(19:10):
us.
And so that's part of it.
It varies.
Sometimes I need to be leftalone.
Sometimes I just want to vent.
I'm not so sure I have ahandbook on how to help me, but
I have a little manual that Icheck every time I have a friend
who might be having a hard time.
Oh
SPEAKER_03 (19:28):
my gosh, you have a manual?
That's amazing.
SPEAKER_00 (19:31):
What is some of the check marks?
It's inserted in my brain.
It's in my brain.
I have to get it out.
Hold on, let me see if I can getthe PDF.
I think
SPEAKER_03 (19:37):
you can.
SPEAKER_00 (19:37):
Yeah, it's really just like, don't overreact to
their overreaction.
Because a lot of times withanxiety...
they're just feelingoverwhelmed.
Don't overreact to theiroverreaction.
Try not to take it personally.
If they're feeling anxious andthey're just going off the rails
a little bit, like try to beobjective, but not cold.
(20:00):
That's a hard thing is how to beobjective when you're with
someone who you love or you carefor, and they're having a hard
time and you can be objective,but not aloof.
I think being aloof is not good,but I think being supportive and
objective is and present at thesame time.
It's not the secret sauce, butit's pretty close.
(20:22):
I think it's really helpful forpeople.
And depression is the same.
Sometimes people want to yank itout of you.
They want to say, why aren't yousmiling?
What's wrong with you?
And you're like, can we justchill and talk?
Because that would help.
SPEAKER_03 (20:37):
Yeah, because sometimes there may not be a
main reason for that.
It could be your body chemistryor Different little triggers and
it's hard to understand, butwhen you're in it, it feels
really bad.
It feels terrible.
But one thing you've talkedabout is perseverance and
persistence, which is what Italk a lot about with mood
(20:59):
disorders because it takes a lotof that sometimes to find your
solutions.
Let's say when you're in adepression, what is it that you
do to kind of survive thosetimes or even try to help
yourself?
SPEAKER_00 (21:13):
Music.
awareness, talking about it.
Trying to understand what you'reputting in your brain is
important too.
Like, let's just say you're at apoint where you can spot your
depression and you canacknowledge it and be proactive
in self-healing.
That's a pretty huge thingbecause I also think there's
(21:36):
part of the anxiety anddepression that wants someone
else to fix it for us.
And I know early in my anxietydays, there are safe people that
you go to who you go, I need youto fix this.
Like I can't do it, only you cando it.
And the truth is that theycan't.
That the person who really holdsthe keys is you.
(21:59):
And so if you have to find someway to communicate with yourself
about your self-healing, thereal kingdom is like, this is in
me.
This is not coming from them.
They're not creating thisproblem for me.
It's me.
And without being self harmfuland saying, oh, I'm a piece of
shit.
(22:19):
Like I keep doing this tomyself.
I'm like, I hate me.
The balance there is it's fine.
It's like archery.
You have to shoot a bow, likejust the right amount of tension
and the right amount of lettinggo is just the right place to
acknowledge that in yourself.
SPEAKER_03 (22:36):
Well, you know, one thing I read about your song,
Seeing Ghosts, is it says itreflects on anxiety that can
often warp our perceptions.
And I totally believe that,right?
Because you get into a fear thateven logically you might know
it's weird to be fearful ofthis, but on the other hand,
(22:57):
you're feeling this fear andit's real.
Can you think of some examplesof anxious thoughts that warped
your perception on something?
SPEAKER_00 (23:06):
I mean, everything, all of them, probably 97% of all
the thoughts I've ever had areanxious, warped thoughts.
I mean, that's just the truth inthe song.
It's kind of particular to whatI'm saying.
Like in the song, it's a bitmore of a relationship and it
really stems from like, there isthis fear of, and I also think
(23:31):
this relates to artists andwriters or painters.
Like you're completely,engrossed in your work like
you're disappearing into yourwork and there are times where
you're living your life andyou're in this fog of existence
be it in your art or be it in arelationship and you're just not
(23:53):
sure where you are anymore youfeel very uncertain of your
state and what your relationshipto the things around you are and
the big fear of the narrator inthat song it's not even a fear
it's There's a deep acceptancein that song.
This person in that song, whichis sort of me, is existing
clearly in this world butdoesn't quite understand what's
(24:15):
happening in the periphery andis afraid that if this world of
fog, this is getting reallyesoteric, but if this world of
fog is real or if he goes intoit, does he ever reappear again?
How do you get in and out ofthese states and For me, it's a
lot about love.
(24:36):
That song is a love song,believe it or not, strangely.
It's about seeing someone whoyou love who doesn't recognize
you or see you anymore.
And that's a bad feeling.
It's just a bad feeling to belike, my heart is still with
you, but I don't even exist toyou anymore.
I'm nothing.
(24:56):
So yeah, it's a complicatedsong, but it is a love song.
SPEAKER_03 (25:03):
Well, you know, you said one thing that I think is
so important, and that's to seeand hear people.
And I was reading somewherewhere they said to be seen and
heard is one of the mostimportant things about
relationships, aboutconnections.
And if you're not, it's reallypainful.
I noticed that a lot of thethings that you say are things
(25:25):
that you've learned throughoutyour life to deal with anxiety
and depression.
But there are other ways, youknow, some people go to therapy
or they might have experiencewith a support group or they may
even try medication that canwork for them.
Have you used any of those othertypes of ways to help with your
mood conditions?
SPEAKER_00 (25:45):
I've been in therapy a bunch of times.
I've never really gone themedication route.
I'm not against it.
I think for some people, it'svery helpful.
Like I have people in my lifewho I love dearly, whose lives
are really much better becauseof meds.
And I have people who have beenon meds who have just decided
(26:06):
it's not right for them and thatthey didn't feel like that was
the healing path they wanted tobe on.
The one place where I would landwith this is if you've tried
exercise and diet and you'vereally made a lot of changes in
your life and you're not feelinglike you're getting any better.
maybe consider a short term onmedication or if you need it
(26:27):
longer term.
The place that I am mostsensitive to for other people is
that despondency where they feelcompletely like nothing is ever
going to help.
I'm never getting better.
This is it.
My life, like everything is justa disaster because I feel that
way sometimes.
(26:48):
I think we all do, but youshouldn't feel that way.
all the time every day you knowif it ebbs and flows cool but i
can experience pleasure and ican experience joy and i can
experience gratefulness andgratitude there have been times
in my life where i could not andthat's when i really have sought
(27:10):
out talk therapy and i've mademajor changes to what i'm
putting in my body and what i'mdoing exercise wise and What
kind of TV I'm watching?
Because I tend to like reallydark stuff.
The darker, the more intense,the more I like it.
But there's a point where mybrain's like, all right, dude,
(27:30):
this is a bit much.
We need to stop and chill andwatch some more Arrested
Development and chill out.
So I think a big part of this isbeing self-aware and finding a
place where you can recognizeyour symptoms and recognize how
bad they might be, but I haven'tgone the meds route, but I've
done tons of therapy and talktherapy and CBT and EDMR.
(27:53):
And I actually really think thatfor some very specific
trauma-related stuff, thatpsychedelic therapy is extremely
helpful and should be thoughtabout seriously.
SPEAKER_03 (28:04):
Well, you know, we had Jesse Leach of Kill Switch
Engage come on and talk aboutmicrodosing with mushrooms.
And I've also had...
Other people talk about EMDR.
What has really worked for youin those, I guess, alternate
therapies?
SPEAKER_00 (28:23):
I haven't had a single experience where I was
like, revelation! Oh my god!Other than being consistently
motivated to try to heal myself.
Therapy has been really helpful.
Honestly, it's like playingmusic is the biggest thing for
me.
(28:44):
Being able to create and playmusic is the greatest medicine
for me.
And it's been the greatestmedicine for me.
Music for me is really the placethat I go to that's the most
healing.
SPEAKER_03 (28:58):
Well, that's wonderful that you're able to
have a career with this and atthe same time just feel so good.
I mean, is there anything elsethat you want to say about
mental health or about yourmusic?
SPEAKER_00 (29:10):
Well, one thing that really helped me in the
beginning was just knowing thatI wasn't the only one.
It wasn't only me who hadanxiety and depression.
It wasn't only me who was havingpanic attacks.
It wasn't only me who felt theseterrible ways that felt
completely out of control.
So it's important.
I would always just say, you'renot alone.
(29:33):
It's really important forsomeone in your life, family,
friend, loved one, partner,child.
it's important for them to knowthat they're not alone.
Even if you can't share it withthem, and even if you can't
necessarily fix it, they're notalone.
And that's an important messagebecause our ultimate existential
fear is aloneness.
(29:55):
So I would share that as my onemore thing.
SPEAKER_03 (29:58):
That sounds like, what is it called?
Those commercials with
SPEAKER_00 (30:01):
the star?
Exactly.
The more you know.
The
SPEAKER_03 (30:04):
more you know.
Well, thank you so much, AmosLee.
Dreamland is now available, andmake sure to go and catch Amos
Lee on tour.
SPEAKER_00 (30:14):
Please come out.
I will give you the good vibes,I promise.
I will be there for you and allof your mental health needs on
stage.
SPEAKER_03 (30:27):
Next, clinical psychologist Dr.
Melissa Boudin will educate uson panic attacks and the methods
you can learn to calm them.
Dr.
Boudin is also the clinicaldirector of ChoosingTherapy.com
and will explain how onlinetherapy can be an effective
alternative to in-person officevisits.
I'm also excited to announce abenefit show to raise funds for
(30:49):
mental health.
On April 24th at the Hard RockCafe in Hollywood, the LA Rock
Collective will host the Rockfor Life show, an all-ages show
featuring some of the best localbands in Los Angeles.
The show will benefit the MentalHealth Fund for Sweet Relief and
the Check Your Head podcast, andfor$20 pre-sale tickets, visit
(31:10):
checkyourheadpodcast.com orrockcollective.net.
Now let's hear our mental healthexpert, Dr.
Melissa Boudin, share herknowledge and advice on panic
attacks.
You know, after listening toAmos Lee's interview, was there
anything that stood out to youabout his mental health journey?
(31:30):
First, it's very
SPEAKER_02 (31:30):
inspiring, but what stood out to me the most was his
self-awareness and his opennessin his story and also just his
encouragement of others throughhis journey.
And towards the end, and hetalked about the most important
thing for people to know is thatthey're not alone and that they
hold the key to their ownhealing.
(31:52):
And I love that he encouragesothers to be proactive in their
healing and to not expect orwant others to fix it for them.
As a psychologist, that's reallyimportant to the work that I do
because therapists are there tosupport and to be your sounding
board and to help you inlearning skills that we can't
learn them for you when we can'tdo them for you.
(32:13):
So when people have thatparticular perspective, they
almost always have goodoutcomes, not just in therapy,
but in their mental healthjourney.
SPEAKER_03 (32:21):
The thing is, is that when you're in a mood
disorder, it's difficult.
to reach your hand out and askfor help and really take the
steps to get help because you'reexhausted and you're scared.
But just the importance oftaking that first step in
believing that there's therapythat can help.
(32:41):
We've had quite a few musicianson the podcast talk about panic
attacks.
Can you first explain what apanic attack is?
SPEAKER_02 (32:50):
Panic attacks are...
These relatively short periodsof really overwhelming fear or
anxiety.
And I say relatively shortbecause while they last
typically around 10 minutes,that 10 minutes can feel like a
really long time to the personwho is experiencing it.
And the intensity of a panicattack goes well beyond normal
(33:12):
anxiety.
And it can include a number ofphysical symptoms like your
heart pounding, sweating,trembling, shaking.
shortness of breath, chest pain,all of these things.
It can even include feelingdetached from yourself.
You can see why during panicattacks, especially during first
panic attacks, they often fearthat they're having a heart
(33:34):
attack or they can't breathe orthey're dying or losing control.
So it can be scary.
There are bodies alarm system orfight or flight system going
haywire.
And we all have this built-infight or flight system.
powered by adrenaline.
It's meant to do these thingsvery purposefully.
(33:54):
Increase your heart rate, yourbreathing, get blood flowing to
your body in response to danger.
It's key to our survival.
And ordinarily, it works reallywell.
And some people, though, theresponse is either totally out
of proportion to whatever stressis going on, or it can even come
on without stress at all,causing a panic attack.
SPEAKER_03 (34:15):
Right.
Just kind of like out of theblue, seemingly out of the blue.
Yes,
SPEAKER_02 (34:19):
absolutely.
SPEAKER_03 (34:21):
Amos was talking about how depression and anxiety
is a family history thing forhim.
Throughout his life, he'sfigured out different ways to
kind of soothe himself.
He did talk about a time when hestarted getting panic attacks in
college.
He mentioned drinking tons ofMountain Dew, doing tons of pot,
(34:41):
not exercising.
Can you tell us some of thecommon triggers that can
preclude panic
SPEAKER_02 (34:48):
attacks?
First, caffeine is certainlyone.
It's a stimulant and it has thesame effects on your body that a
frightening or threatening eventwould.
So very much can stimulate thatfight or flight response.
And the same with both caffeineand cannabis have recognized
disorders from the AmericanPsychiatric Association that are
(35:12):
related to anxiety.
There's caffeine-induced anxietyand cannabis-induced anxiety.
So those are both certainlytriggers.
Stressful situations as well,you know, a fight with a spouse
or work stress can contribute tothem.
Other things you ingest cancontribute to them as well.
Some over-the-countermedications, prescription
medications, weight loss drugs,alcohol.
(35:35):
There's several things outsideof the typical stressful
situations as well.
SPEAKER_03 (35:40):
And he also mentioned social situations,
like social anxiety, wherepeople can get really nervous,
you know, with a crowd of peopleor whatever the situation is.
SPEAKER_02 (35:50):
100%.
It can be something that you andI might take for granted.
Going to the grocery store,taking even your dog for a walk
and being fearful you might runinto somebody.
These super simple things can bereally challenging and anxiety
provoking for people and theyend up then avoiding them.
SPEAKER_03 (36:07):
Sometimes I think when people think of coffee or
caffeine or Mountain Dew, theythink of something that's going
to give them energy opposed tosomething that might cause them
anxiety and get them jittery.
And I'm just going to speak frommy own experience because I take
supplements.
I take a B-complex, and I findthat not only does the B-complex
(36:30):
give me energy, but it alsoseems to calm me at the same
time.
It keeps me very level mentally.
It
SPEAKER_02 (36:39):
really just depends on your body chemistry as well.
For example, individuals withADHD, they need a stimulant in
order to be calm and level.
So it depends on body chemistryand then also depends on the
supplement and the way that yourbody metabolizes it.
But there are certain things andcertain people who can have that
jolt of energy and remain calmand there are others and
(37:02):
particularly in combination withother situations or other
stressors that that same Bcomplex or that same regular cup
of coffee mixed with somethingelse going on in their life can
then cause panic or anxiety.
SPEAKER_03 (37:16):
Okay.
And as a psychologist, somebodyis experiencing a panic attack.
What are some methods thatpeople can use that they can
also learn in therapy to soothethat panic attack while it's
happening?
SPEAKER_02 (37:29):
The most classic techniques are cognitive
behavioral techniques, andthey're focused around either
retraining your breathing,grounding your body or your
mind, or having some type ofmindfulness.
So The three that I think arethe most popular are retraining
(37:49):
your breathing.
When people have panic attacks,they almost always show some
signs of hyperventilating orover-breathing.
And when this happens, yourbrain gets less oxygen and then
that can lead to dizziness andconfusion and the other symptoms
that we see with panic attacks,as well as your body gets less
oxygen, then you get numb ortingly.
It's this kind of vicious cyclethat starts with
(38:11):
hyperventilating or thebreathing.
And so breathing retrainingteaches you to breathe slowly
from your diaphragm.
And it's really this quick,simple way to reach a relaxed
state or to tap into yourrelaxation response.
And it's super easy.
It's sitting down comfortably,laying on a bed, breathing in
(38:33):
through your nose for fourseconds, holding it for two,
breathing out for six, andrepeat and exhaling for longer
and longer each time.
And you want to practice it forthe first times, not while
you're having a panic attack, tobuild up that confidence and
build up the skills so thatyou're able to use it to calm
your breathing, which then inturn calms the rest of the
(38:54):
symptoms that are happening, thebodily sensations.
And then two big things that Ilove that they're really popular
right now, and there's all theseapps out right now for them, are
practicing mindfulness and alsomeditation.
Those two things go hand inhand.
And then muscle relaxation.
So learning to tense and releasemuscles on command, getting to
(39:16):
the point where you're able justto release your muscle tension,
and that reduces the anxiety.
SPEAKER_03 (39:20):
I'm really curious about meditation.
I always seem to ask about itbecause people, that do it,
swear by it, as far as helpingtheir anxiety and panic attacks,
what is really the mechanism ofmeditation by doing that on a
regular basis on our minds andour brains?
(39:40):
So
SPEAKER_02 (39:41):
it grounds you in the moment and in your present
reality.
It also helps you to recognizethe emotional state that you're
in and reduces stress and helpsyou relax because you're in that
moment.
You're shutting out the rest ofthe world.
We don't focus on our currentmoment.
We're always thinking about thenext thing or what is the to-do
(40:02):
list or whatever it may be.
And we are not present to ouremotions.
We're not present to ourphysical sensations in our body.
And when we do that, things cango awry.
So it's just about being presentin your body, being present in
the moment, and recognizing yourbody signals, recognizing your
emotions and what your needsare.
SPEAKER_03 (40:23):
The thing that I'm curious about is when somebody
is in a panic attack, they'renot in the middle of a
meditation.
Let's say they meditate in themorning or they meditate at
night.
The mindfulness, is it alsoslowing down the racing brain
with meditation?
Because I noticed that withmyself is that it almost forces
(40:43):
you to not only relax your mind,but also relax your body and all
the other parts of your body.
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_02 (40:51):
And also a piece of it is, in part of Amos'
interview, he was talking aboutfeeling outside of his body.
And mindfulness can be somethingthat helps you connect back to
your body and into your presentreality.
And where am I?
What room am I in?
Yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_03 (41:08):
One thing I really loved about Amos Lee is that he
talked about his support system.
What are some ways a loved onecould support somebody who is
experiencing a panic attack?
SPEAKER_02 (41:21):
The big things are asking how you can help,
validating their distress,validating them just in general.
Asking how you can help isimportant and ask not during the
middle of a panic attack, but ifyou know that somebody you love
experiences them, asking themahead of time when one occurs,
how can you help them?
These are individuals who, youknow, we always have to remember
(41:43):
they know best what they need.
They have go-to coping methods.
it just may be difficult forthem to think of what they are
in the moment.
And so if you know them and youask them how you can help and
you know what those copingstrategies are, you can remind
them in the moment when ithappens.
And then validating is soimportant because people
typically have a really hardtime sharing their experiences
with mental health issues.
And that includes panic attacksbecause they think others may
(42:07):
judge them or they won'tunderstand or they don't really
bother by talking about it.
So just validating someone andsaying, no, that is really
tough.
I'm sorry that you experiencedthat.
let me know what I can do tosupport you, can be so
meaningful to people and letthem know that they have a safe
space to go to.
Other things are remaining calm.
It's a scary situation, but ifyou can remain calm and be that
(42:28):
face of calm, that's going to beimportant for the person.
Yeah, I think that those are thebig things.
SPEAKER_03 (42:34):
I love the fact you talk about validating because I
think sometimes when people aregoing through anxiety or
depression, it may not makesense to the other person.
For instance, We're talkingabout panic attacks that seem to
come out of the blue or clinicaldepression that may not be
caused by trauma.
It could be caused by somethingphysical.
(42:54):
It could be caused by hormonalimbalance.
But what happens sometimes ispeople will say, well, don't
feel that way or don't bedepressed.
What do you have to be depressedabout?
Or why are you nervous?
There's nothing to be nervousabout.
And that can be, it can behurtful because it's not
validating how they're actuallyfeeling.
SPEAKER_02 (43:15):
Yeah, and creating a space where they don't have a
person to trust and they weretrusting in you by sharing it
with you.
And then each person that shutsthem down that way makes it
harder and harder for them totalk about it typically.
SPEAKER_03 (43:27):
Well, I know support groups are really important for
depression and anxiety.
I know I went to one when I wasin a really bad space, but I
wanted to know what you believethe importance is in sharing
your story with somebody else.
The big
SPEAKER_02 (43:46):
things are outside of validation, but it's also
normalizing your experience.
Is my experience normal?
I think a lot of people arequestioning that when they have
a panic attack, particularly forthe first time, and they may
think they're very alone.
It's a very lonely feeling.
And so knowing that you're notalone and that other people are
experiencing the same thing youare in the same way, and having
(44:07):
that group to go through thatexperience with and learn with
and talk about coping strategieswith and what's working for
them, and just having thatcommunity.
SPEAKER_03 (44:17):
It really is kind of a therapeutic process because of
all those things that you said.
There's so much knowledge andexperience that can be shared
and especially compassion andempathy because they've gone
through it themselves.
And who better to learn from butsomebody who's had the
(44:37):
experience?
And I also wanted to emphasizethat sometimes people, when they
think of therapy, they think,oh, it's just talking.
But it's also about learningdifferent strategies and being
guided on how to practice thesestrategies.
And just, you know, somebodythere to kind of lead you and
(44:58):
guide you.
SPEAKER_02 (44:58):
The therapist isn't going to be able to fix it for
you, but they will lead the way,you know, shine the light on the
path and you have to do thework.
And sometimes you have to climbthe hill and strap on the gear
and all of the things, but youhave to do the work, but it is
so worth it.
SPEAKER_03 (45:15):
Right.
It's work that really allows youto have a better, brighter life
that you can take with youthroughout your life.
One thing that Amos did duringhis panic attacks is that he
would use positive self-talk.
Can you give me some examples ofpositive self-talk that you can
do while you're in a panicattack?
SPEAKER_02 (45:37):
Yeah, and also why it works, right?
Like when someone's having apanic attack, there's a lot of
negative self-talk that goesthrough their mind.
You know, I'm going crazy, I'mgoing to die, I'm having a heart
attack.
So knowing what those negativeself-talk statements are and
being able to replace them withpositive ones can be very
healing.
Some of them can be, this is notan emergency, or I can feel like
(46:00):
this and still be okay.
This has happened before and Iwas okay, I'll be okay this time
too.
I can handle these symptoms.
I can handle these sensations.
Nothing dangerous is happeningright now.
All of those things and justrepeating those to yourself over
and over again.
SPEAKER_03 (46:15):
Amos Lee said music was one of the best therapies
for him.
And I know that when I wasplaying music and when I
listened to music, there'ssomething about it that puts you
in a very present state.
In other words, you really can'tthink of anything else but the
(46:35):
music when you're playing orwhen you're listening to it
because it's so engaging.
And I feel like it kind of givesyour mind a break, you know, if
you're in distress or something.
SPEAKER_02 (46:44):
I mean, music is one of the number one things that
comes up in therapy.
When I talk to somebody aboutcoping strategies for someone
who might be depressed orexperiencing anxiety and what
used to make them happy, One ofthe things that falls off, but
one of the easiest things to putback in to your life is music.
And you would be so shocked.
(47:05):
You wouldn't be so shocked, butI think many people would be
shocked at what a difference itcan make because of those
things.
Music not only can bring youinto a present moment, but it
can also bring back memories.
So if you're playing music, froma time in your life when you
were really happy or you feltjoy, it ignites those same
feelings and emotions in you.
It's really powerful.
(47:25):
Just like certain smells can do,or you have these deja vu
moments, music can be that aswell.
SPEAKER_03 (47:31):
Right.
And also to be conscious aboutthe kind of music that you put
in your head, because that canalso affect how you think and
how you feel.
If you want to be uplifted, it'sgood to choose music that's
going to do that for you,opposed to something really sad.
Although sometimes sad songs canmake us happy.
(47:51):
Totally.
And the same thing goes with
SPEAKER_02 (47:54):
music, TV as well, social media.
Being really mindful of whatyou're ingesting just through
your mind and your eyes isreally important because you
want it to match the mood youwant to have, particularly if
you're feeling down or you'refeeling anxious.
SPEAKER_03 (48:08):
Well, you know, you're also the clinical
director of Choosing Therapy, anonline telehealth therapy And I
wanted to thank you so much forthe article on the Best Mental
Health Podcast for 2022.
I was honored and thrilled thatthe Check Your Head podcast was
included in that list.
And I wanted to have you explainmore about choosing therapy
(48:32):
because with a pandemic and evengoing forward, there are a lot
of musicians on tour or peoplein general that just can't go
into an office for whateverreasons.
Can you tell us a little bitmore about how choosing therapy
is different?
SPEAKER_02 (48:47):
You know, video therapy is so convenient.
There's no commute.
You can fit in any part of theday.
If you travel like manymusicians do, you can take the
call from the road.
So it's really increasing accessto that care.
But in terms of what makesthings so unique about our
platform, really the biggestthing is that our director makes
it really easy to find a greattherapist and quickly.
(49:09):
So we have hundreds ofindependently licensed
therapists.
We cover 27 states in the US.
So we have a really broad rangeof therapists and we can really
tailor a match to what somebodyis looking for.
But our directory also showsreal-time availability of our
therapists and allows you tobook with them completely
online.
So you're busy, right?
(49:29):
If you're on the road or you'rea musician, you have time to
call 15 or 20 therapists to findout if they're taking clients,
to find out if they take your...
insurance, whatever it may be,to find out where their next
appointment is.
With ours, you can go online.
You can find the therapist youwant.
You can book with them as soonas the next day, completely
online.
You don't have to talk to aperson if you don't want to.
But if you do, we also have thisamazing team of client
(49:52):
navigators that will help youfind the best match for
yourself, answer any questionsyou have, and help you get
booked.
SPEAKER_03 (49:59):
That's really great because when somebody's in a
mood disorder, it's important toget immediate attention because
You never know when that desiremight lapse.
And there's also a lot ofconditions like agoraphobia or
even depression where it's hardto get out of the house and
(50:19):
different situations wherepeople may just have their phone
or their computer in front ofthem and may not have the way to
get to somebody's office.
And I do find that thankfullywith the pandemic, we've gotten
used to Zoom and doing thisthing online.
And we're finding that it's verypersonal.
We don't necessarily have to bein a room with somebody to have
(50:41):
a personal connection.
SPEAKER_02 (50:42):
Absolutely.
And just speaking for manypeople in my profession, we were
all a little bit worried movinginto the video space because for
so many years has reallyclassically been you in the same
room with somebody.
But a couple months in, we wereall so...
pleasantly surprised by theoutcomes and by the connections
we were able to make with peoplevia video.
(51:03):
And that it was just as good, ifnot better, because then you
sold their space.
Now we're seeing the client'sspace in their lives in a much
different way than we would inour office.
And it can actually be moreadvantageous to the healing
process than having them in anoffice where it's not their
space.
SPEAKER_03 (51:20):
Another thing that can be an advantage is that some
people might want to stayanonymous.
And they may not want to turn ontheir video, but they may want
to talk with you.
Maybe it's a celebrity orsomebody that is a notable
musician that wants to keepthings on the down low.
You're able to do that a littlebetter online.
(51:40):
Is there anything else that youwould like to say about mental
health or about choosingtherapy?
The biggest thing that I want tosay is
SPEAKER_02 (51:48):
very similar to Amos, is that you hold the key
to your healing.
And there are people who want tohelp you, who are literally
dedicating their lives tohelping you.
And with choosing therapy, youcan go and you can find a
therapist.
You don't need to talk toanybody.
If you're nervous about talkingto someone, you can book with
(52:08):
that therapist.
You can be seen the next day.
You can begin healing as quicklyas possible.
So if they're on the fence, ifthey've been thinking about it
for a long time or short time,just to try it because it's an
incredible experience.
SPEAKER_03 (52:22):
A big thank you to our musical guest, Amos Lee, and
our mental health expert, Dr.
Melissa Boudin.
For more information on AmosLee, his Dreamland Tour, and his
Tickets for Teachers programthat gives away free tickets to
teachers and also raises fundsfor school supplies, visit
amoslee.com.
(52:42):
Stay tuned to listen to a clipof his single, Worry No More.
And for more information on Dr.
Melissa Boudin and ChoosingTherapy, visit
choosingtherapy.com.
And purchase your tickets to theApril 24th Benefit Show for
Mental Health atcheckyourheadpodcast.com or
rockcollective.net.
So until next time, be brave,ask for help, and be persistent
(53:06):
in finding the mental healththat you
SPEAKER_01 (53:08):
need.
SPEAKER_03 (53:39):
Check Your Head Podcast is kindly supported and
partnered with Sweet ReliefMusicians Fund, DBSA San Gabriel
Valley, Earshot Media, and LemonTree Studios in Los Angeles.
Visit checkyourheadpodcast.comwhere we have over 100 solutions
for mental health.
Be our friends on social mediaat Check Your Head Podcast.
(54:00):
Watch us on YouTube and supportus with a kind donation on
checkyourheadpodcast.com.
Check Your Head podcast issponsored by a 501c3 nonprofit
with all donations being taxdeductible.
Thank you for your support andthank you for listening.
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