Mari Fong interviews Brian Wheat of Tesla and expert Karl Shallowhorn, mental health educator, speaker, coach and author of “Leadership Through the Lens of the 12 Steps.” Brian Wheat of Tesla shares how he overcame bulimia, addictions, and lives successfully with panic attacks, depression.
Brian Wheat’s autobiography entitled, Son of a Milkman: My Crazy Life with Tesla, tells how he survived and thrived through 39 years recording and performing with Tesla and touring with Def Leppard, Motley Crue, Poison and other iconic hair metal bands. Brian talks about his mother’s mental health issues, the one person who turned his life around, and how his autoimmune disease affects him mentally and physically. Brian shares the unexpected benefits he found from therapy and medication.
Next, Mental Health First Aid Educator and expert Karl Shallowhorn shares his own journey with bipolar disorder and addiction and what finally led him to believe he could live a life without drugs. Karl talks about the “addictive personality” and how love and fear can be key motivators for change. Using the 12 Step Program for controlling addiction and how to live a life beyond your wildest dreams.
“Be brave, ask for help, and be persistent in finding the mental help that you need.”
For free or affordable mental help, visit: http://checkyourheadpodcast.com/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_02 (00:00):
Welcome to the Check Your Head podcast, the podcast
where notable musicians andexperts come and share their
stories and solutions for mentalhealth and wellness.
I'm your host, Mari Fong, amusic journalist and life coach
for musicians, and today I'mstarting with celebrations for
the month of June.
(00:20):
We are celebrating Juneteenth, aday that represents the end of
slavery, which has officiallybecome a national holiday on
June 19th.
And we're also celebrating PrideMonth in June, where we
celebrate our friends in theLGBTQ community.
Another important milestone tocelebrate is the coronavirus,
which has gotten to a new low inthe U.S.
(00:43):
due to people gettingvaccinated.
So to protect yourself from thispotentially deadly virus, I
encourage you to get vaccinatedso life can return for us all.
Next, a shout out to ChicanoBatman, a band who is having a
virtual benefit concert on June30th for our friends at Sweet
Relief Musicians Fund.
(01:03):
So if you'd like to celebrate byattending this special show,
visit ChicanoBatman.com orSweetRelief.org to purchase your
tickets.
Now to our featured guests.
Today we have a rock god.
The co-founder of a hair metalband started in 1982, a band
who's still rocking out today,having sold 14 million albums
(01:24):
and counting.
This band famously toured withthe likes of Def Leppard, Motley
Crue, and Van Halen, and arestill going strong with a tour
this year with Leonard Skinner.
Their last album dropped in2020, entitled Five Man London
Jam, best known for their songslike Love Song, Modern Day
Cowboy, and the cover of thesong, Signs.
(01:48):
Today we have the great bassplayer and keyboardist, Brian
Wheat of Tesla.
Brian recently published anautobiography called Son of a
Milkman, My Crazy Life withTesla.
Not only does Brian share hiswild, rockstar life, but also
his struggles with panicattacks, bulimia, depression,
and addictions, and hispractical solutions for recovery
(02:11):
in the book and on today'sepisode.
Next, our featured expert is amental health advocate, speaker,
educator, and author of thebook, Leadership Through the
Lens of the Twelve Steps.
Mental health expert CarlShallohorn talks to us today
about how he tackled his ownmood disorder and addictions and
(02:31):
how you can too.
But first, let's hear Brian Weedof Tesla share his story.
When Tesla started to rise infame, you started to have
anxiety and panic attacks.
How did you deal with thosepanic attacks when you were on
tour?
SPEAKER_01 (02:51):
Well, it didn't really happen until we were
making Psychotic Supper and Iwas in the studio.
I wasn't on tour when they firstcame along.
I've had some since then ontour, but I've learned how to
control it and how to recognizeit and deal with it.
But when they first startedcoming out, we were in the
(03:12):
rehearsal studio working onPsychotic Supper.
And one night I went torehearsal, we were in
pre-production.
And I threw up all over theplace and started freaking out.
Steve Thompson took me outside,our producer, and he said, look,
when we get to New York nextweek, my brother's a doctor at
the hospital.
We'll have him check you out andsee what's going on.
(03:34):
And that's when I was diagnosedwith the anxiety disorder.
SPEAKER_02 (03:40):
And you mentioned you didn't want to take
medication for the anxiety orthe panic attacks.
UNKNOWN (03:46):
No.
SPEAKER_01 (03:46):
Yeah, because I was already taking drugs
recreationally, you know, pills,and I didn't want to get more
pills.
So I decided to go thepsychiatry route, even though I
didn't really believe inpsychiatry at the time.
SPEAKER_02 (03:59):
Through your therapy, what things did you
learn to help deal with thosepanic attacks?
SPEAKER_01 (04:07):
Just to recognize what it was and tell yourself
that you were in control, notit.
And you play these mind gameswith yourself to talk yourself
off the ledge, so to speak.
Some breathing, deep breathingalways helps.
SPEAKER_02 (04:26):
What were some of the drugs that you were taking
at that time?
Because I do remember you sayingthat Psychotic Supper is when a
lot of the band members were inthe midst of drugs and alcohol.
SPEAKER_01 (04:39):
Oh, definitely.
Jeff smacked Tommy around a fewtimes, and that was definitely
over drugs.
Sometimes it was drugs andalcohol, and sometimes it was
just we got on each other'snerves.
That's what brothers do.
Siblings fight with each other.
We're no different.
We're just human.
SPEAKER_02 (04:59):
I couldn't keep up with all the different members
and the drugs that were going onthere.
What were some of your favoritedrugs that you were taking at
the time?
SPEAKER_01 (05:10):
I liked cocaine and ecstasy.
Those were the ones I got reallyinto in the later part of Tesla
before we broke up.
But before that, I wasn't intoanything.
I just used to drink.
SPEAKER_02 (05:27):
Yeah, I found that really interesting is that when
the other members were goingthrough their struggles, you
were pretty clean.
But it was only until later thatyou got into that.
So what was it that...
I guess, inspired you to startdoing more drugs and alcohol at
that time.
SPEAKER_01 (05:43):
Well, because they were.
So I wanted to connect withthem.
I went, well, let me see whatthis is all about.
SPEAKER_02 (05:49):
Okay, so it was more curiosity.
SPEAKER_01 (05:52):
Well, in the beginning, but then you liked
it.
You know, I mean, have you everdone drugs?
Yeah, I have.
Did you like them?
SPEAKER_02 (06:03):
Yeah, there were some drugs that I did enjoy.
SPEAKER_01 (06:06):
Yeah, exactly.
That's what I'm saying.
It's just human nature.
You do it out of curiosity, andthen you like them.
And then you either fuckingfigure a way to get outgrown, or
you end up paying the piper.
The story doesn't change.
I liked Benzos, you know?
Valium.
I was into that.
(06:27):
Quaalude.
You could still get Quaaludeback then.
But not a lot.
More than I was used to.
Not like I got later in lifewith cocaine and ecstasy.
I mean, I was full-on cokefreak.
So I was just dabbling with it,and I didn't want to take more
pills.
(06:47):
Not really a pill kind of
SPEAKER_02 (06:50):
guy.
When did it get to a point whereyou felt like you really needed
to do something about yourcocaine or your alcohol
SPEAKER_01 (06:57):
use?
Well, it was when Tesla finallybroke up.
And I hooked up with my wife,Monique.
She said, look, I won't date youif you're high.
So I said, okay, I can quit.
I don't need to take the drugs.
So I stopped.
Literally, like that.
SPEAKER_02 (07:14):
Really?
Just like that?
SPEAKER_01 (07:16):
Yeah, I'm one of those guys that can do that on
some things.
I wish I could stop some of theother things I start.
But with the drugs, I justwalked away from them.
I went, I don't need them.
And stopped.
SPEAKER_02 (07:29):
Well, that's really noble of you to be able to do
that because not everyone can dothat.
SPEAKER_01 (07:35):
No, not everyone can do that.
I was able to do that.
I was able to stop drinking.
It didn't really bother me.
I wish I could stop eating, butthat's a little bit harder.
SPEAKER_02 (07:48):
Oh, yeah.
It takes a lot of determinationand a lot of restraint.
I'm glad you brought that upbecause there was a point in
your life where you said you'rea big guy.
And you felt pressured to loseweight, the image of the band.
And you said you were borderlinebulimic.
SPEAKER_01 (08:07):
Yeah, for a few years, yeah, I was.
SPEAKER_02 (08:09):
Yeah, so can you tell me about that time in your
life and what was going throughyour head?
SPEAKER_01 (08:13):
What was going through my head was we were at
the height of our career and I'mtrying to stay as thin as I can.
And I got obsessed with myweight so much that I used to
carry a scale around in asuitcase.
And I went on the road, and if Istarted to put on weight, I
would stick my fingers down mythroat to throw up to what I had
(08:38):
eaten.
It was like, oh, no, no, I'mgetting five pounds over.
And that was kind of thisdangerous tightrope I was on for
about four or five years.
SPEAKER_02 (08:50):
Yeah, that's a good amount of time.
I mean, did you have anyphysical– Repercussions?
SPEAKER_01 (08:56):
Not really.
Not really, no.
Maybe I do now.
I don't know.
But at the time, no, I didn'thave any problems.
SPEAKER_02 (09:08):
So in that case, did you also do the same thing?
You just came to a point whereyou decided to stop doing that?
Or was there an
SPEAKER_01 (09:15):
incident?
Yeah, not just one day.
The band had broken up and I wasoff tour and maybe I didn't feel
as much pressure and I juststopped.
And then right about that time,then that's when the autoimmune
thing kicked in.
And then they started putting meon Perendazone.
I mean, Perendazone is going toput weight on you no matter what
(09:37):
the fuck you do.
So then I've struggled with thatfor the last 15 years.
My weight going up and down, upand down, up and down because of
the medication and the Crohn'sdisease.
The colitis and the Crohn's, theonly way they can really combat
it is with steroids, prednisone.
(09:57):
That's really bad for you.
It might take care of thecolitis, but it does all this
other shit to your body.
SPEAKER_02 (10:07):
You do mention your autoimmune disease throughout
the book and how it's affectedyou physically, but sometimes
autoimmune diseases can alsoaffect you you mentally and
physically.
Because you talk aboutdepression during the book.
There's one specific page whereyou really get into talking
about it.
Can you tell me about yourexperience with that?
SPEAKER_01 (10:29):
Well, I've had it from time to time, but I think
you're probably talking aboutwhen I was in Canada and I had
said in the book that I alwayscould never understand why these
guys killed themselves fromdepression.
I mean, I felt bad for him, butI could never understand how it
(10:49):
could get so bad you would takecare of life.
And there was a point when I wasin Canada that I had that kind
of depression.
Now, I'm not saying Icontemplated suicide, because I
didn't.
But it was so intense and sooverwhelming.
At that point, I said to myself,Okay, I get it.
(11:11):
I see how these guys justcouldn't put up with this
anymore or how someone couldn'tput up with this anymore.
And it was a pretty dark place.
SPEAKER_02 (11:22):
What was going on in your life at the time?
Was it something that just cameout of the blue or was it
precipitated
SPEAKER_01 (11:28):
by something else?
I was at the top of my game,man.
I was on tour with Def Leppardin Canada.
Everything was going great.
I don't know what the hellhappened.
And
SPEAKER_02 (11:41):
then when did things start turning around?
About
SPEAKER_01 (11:44):
six months later.
Okay.
Three, four months later.
But I'm pretty sure that thedepression was brought on
because I tried getting off myanti-anxiety medicine because I
went through this period where Ididn't want to take medicine
anymore.
I was like, I don't want to takethe pills.
I feel fine.
So it took about two and a half,three months to wean off this
(12:08):
Paxil stuff.
And I was fine for about threeor four months.
And then this depression kickedin out of nowhere.
And I finally had to go back onPaxil and it took care of me.
So I think the main thing is ifyou have to take medication for
depression, don't not take it.
Take the medicine.
(12:29):
It's there for a reason.
Don't feel like you're weak orinadequate or any of that shit.
Take the fucking medicine.
SPEAKER_02 (12:36):
Well, I'm glad that you shared that because
oftentimes that does happen.
You feel like you're goingthrough a chapter in your life
or an episode in your life andthat you don't need the
medication anymore.
And then people will do exactlywhat you do, which is wean off
and then find that they're introuble again.
Yeah,
SPEAKER_01 (12:56):
that's what happens.
And then it takes a while to getthe medicine back into your
system.
SPEAKER_02 (13:02):
Right, right.
It takes some time.
So that's also kind of anunstable time, having to wait
for the medication to kick backin.
So one of the things I think isreally important to know is some
of the thoughts that go throughyour head when you're deeply
depressed.
Was there anything that youthought of at the time that
(13:23):
really scared you or made youfeel like, wow, this is really
unusual for me to think thisway?
SPEAKER_01 (13:29):
Well, that freaked me out because I never felt that
way.
And that itself had me reallyanxious and uptight.
The fact that I wasn't feelingnormal.
It's just kind of like a catchasing its tail.
You know what I mean?
SPEAKER_02 (13:47):
You know, you said you didn't feel normal.
How would you describe that?
SPEAKER_01 (13:51):
Well, your body's not feeling right or your mind
doesn't feel right.
I mean, you're always in tunewith your body and what's going
on.
You can tell.
And it just didn't feel right.
Something was off.
Mentally, emotionally, it wasoff.
And it was freaking me out.
Because like I said, therewasn't nothing really tragic or
(14:12):
anything to have me upset.
It was just normal business asusual.
SPEAKER_02 (14:19):
Yeah, when we're depressed or when we're anxious,
sometimes we have thesethoughts.
Like, where did that come from?
And it really does scare us.
You said that at first youdidn't believe in psychiatry.
And there are a lot of peoplethat are just like, I don't want
to go to counseling.
But what was it that it reallygave you?
What did you receive fromcounseling and
SPEAKER_01 (14:42):
therapy?
Well, it made me look at myselfand recognize why I was the way
I was.
When they do that regressiontherapy and take you through
your childhood and all thatstuff...
Some people say, oh, it's abunch of bullshit, but it isn't.
Once you look at your childhood,you can figure out the lineage
to why you may have problemslater in your lives.
(15:06):
And that's what I got out of it.
SPEAKER_02 (15:10):
So what did you discover about your upbringing
that might have caused someissues in the future?
SPEAKER_01 (15:18):
Well, I didn't have a dad.
I was with my mom a lot.
She had some mental problems.
She had some nervous breakdownsI witnessed.
I had to grow up at a very earlyage to take care of her.
That stuff all puts this kind ofshit on me.
It's not like I was abused orsexually molested or anything
like that.
SPEAKER_03 (15:37):
That
SPEAKER_01 (15:38):
wasn't the case, but it's just other shit that when
you're a kid, it's too much foryou.
SPEAKER_02 (15:45):
Well, that is tough for a child to have to deal with
a parent that needs to beparented because they're
suffering from mental issues.
SPEAKER_01 (15:56):
Yeah, she was suffering from anxiety and
depression herself.
She just didn't know it.
Back then, she had her firstnervous breakdown when I was
like three or four.
I'm talking 1966, 67.
You know, they didn't Treatanxiety like they do now.
They put you in a psych ward andgave you shock treatments.
(16:20):
And that's the generation shecame from.
She probably was the manicdepressive.
They thought that everyone wascrazy back then, hysterical or
whatever the fuck they calledit.
Saw that weird booty witch shitback in those days.
SPEAKER_02 (16:35):
Right, right.
Not a whole lot of solid...
medication or solid therapiesthat people referred to.
So she never really was able toget any help for that.
Or did she
SPEAKER_01 (16:49):
eventually?
No, no.
But later in her life, they puther on these pills and she was
the best I'd ever saw her.
So they finally figured it out.
She was close to 80 years old.
She was like 77 years old andshe died four years later.
SPEAKER_02 (17:07):
I'm glad you brought that up because sometimes things
like that can get passed down.
And it's always good to knowyour family history.
And I wanted to get back to whenyou started to get into drugs
because oftentimes drugs can betied to mental health issues.
And there was a point where thecocaine got really bad and you
(17:31):
overdosed.
What was happening then and howdid you survive that?
SPEAKER_01 (17:36):
What was happening was I just got too high one
night.
You know, he liked something.
If I like a pizza, I'll eat thewhole pizza.
So I liked the cocaine, so Isnorted all of it.
And mixed that with a big bottleof red wine and it wasn't good.
(17:56):
It was not pretty.
So that's what happened.
How I survived it was my poormom was there at the house and I
called a friend of mine who wasin a sober program, told him
what I did, and he came and satwith me all night.
Then he tried to get me to gointo a 28-day program and stuff,
(18:19):
but I had to go on tour the nextweek, so that ain't going to
happen.
I'll just go on tour, and when Iget home, I promise I'll do it.
When I got home, we'd broken up.
The band had broken up.
So that's when I met my wife,and she's the one that said,
look, I can't date you if you'rehigh all the time.
So then I just stopped.
(18:42):
I didn't need a 28-day program.
I just stopped.
Thank God I met her.
Who knows?
I might have wind up dead.
SPEAKER_02 (18:51):
Well, your story kind of reminds me of Gilby
Clark.
I also interviewed Gilby Clarkand he said that there's all
kinds of things that happen whenyou're in a band.
But when he met his wife, it wasthe same kind of thing where
she, you know, led a muchhealthier life and wanted to
take care of him.
(19:11):
And I'm sure your wife feels thesame way about you.
Yeah,
SPEAKER_01 (19:14):
well, no one wants to feel like shit.
And sometimes you just don'tknow how to stop so you don't
have to feel like shit.
You know, a lot of things youdo, you self-inflict.
But I'm a believer that no onewants to feel like shit.
So if you can just get off thetrack for a second, you can get
off the merry-go-round,hopefully.
(19:37):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (19:38):
Well, your band, Tesla, toured so much, and there
were changes in your success.
And I would think that fame isalso kind of like an addiction,
right?
Did you feel that the fame alsogot to the heads of a lot of the
people in
SPEAKER_01 (19:55):
the band?
Yeah, it does to everybody.
You can't help it.
I mean, it's hard to be youngand successful and not be
affected by it.
You know, it happens.
I think it happens to everybody.
And you just got to hope thatyou're lucky enough that you
come off the other side of itand come back to some sense of
normality and realize that it'sjust your job and this is what
(20:17):
you do and you ain't special orbetter than anyone else.
It's just a gift you got thatthat's what you do.
And someone else does somethingelse really cool.
We all have something we're goodat.
But when you're young, it's hardnot to get caught up in the hype
and believe you're cool as fuck.
(20:39):
So it happens.
It happened to me and ithappened to lots of guys I know.
Fortunately, I don't trip on itanymore.
It's just like, okay, that's myjob.
You know what I mean?
SPEAKER_02 (20:52):
You were in Soul Motor also.
So when you started that, everyband starts off playing smaller
venues and building theiraudience.
How was that like when you We'replaying to stadiums of people
with Tesla and then having totransition and work a new fan
base.
SPEAKER_01 (21:12):
It was a difficult transition.
I call it paying back taxesbecause it happened for Tesla
fairly quick.
Tesla didn't have to spend fouror five years developing a fan
base.
It happened really quick.
And with Slow Mo, we're stilltrying to develop a fan base.
So it's back taxes.
(21:34):
for having it so quickly inTesla.
It's just the way God plannedit.
But it can be tough sometimeswhen you're playing to 12
people.
You know?
When you're used to paying10,000.
SPEAKER_02 (21:52):
Yeah, I can imagine.
SPEAKER_01 (21:53):
Yeah, but it builds character as well.
SPEAKER_02 (21:57):
Well, you know, you mentioned your friend Ross
Helfen.
the photographer.
And he mentioned that you flewout to England to be with him
when he was in a bad place inhis life and really considers
you a good friend.
Can you tell me how thatexperience was for you to take
action when your friend was inemotional pain?
SPEAKER_01 (22:18):
It's just how I am.
I like to help my friends.
If you're my friend, you're myfriend for life.
And I could see he was hurtingand he needed someone.
So we went.
And I would hope he would do thesame for me.
It's just what you do sometimesfor your friends.
SPEAKER_02 (22:41):
Yeah, I think sometimes just spending time
even next to your friend.
You might not even be doinganything special.
Just showing that you care canreally make a difference when
someone
SPEAKER_01 (22:52):
is
SPEAKER_02 (22:53):
not in a good place for whatever reasons.
And we all go through thosetimes in our lives.
You know, part of the podcast isabout solutions.
And you mentioned something inyour book called the HCG diet.
What is that?
SPEAKER_01 (23:08):
That is this diet that you take these shots.
And I think it's the pregnantwoman's hormone or something
when she's pregnant.
And you shoot them into yourbelly.
(23:28):
And it allows you to live onvery low calories.
Because it's like, when awoman's pregnant, if she doesn't
eat right, her body produces ahormone so the baby doesn't
starve.
So that's the theory behind it.
And I went on that one time andI lost a considerable amount of
(23:49):
weight.
But I was eating like 400calories a day.
That's not much.
No, it's not much at all.
But it did work at the time.
This last year has been fuckedbecause of COVID.
You don't know if you're evergoing to play again, and then
(24:10):
you get depressed, and then yousay, fuck it, give me a
cheeseburger.
I don't got to go on concert.
Because when you have to go onstage, you have to go on stage,
you're going to not eat as muchas you would like to Because you
go, I got to keep my imagetogether.
You know what I mean?
And I tell you, sitting aroundon my ass for a year with this
(24:32):
COVID thing has been, you know,I probably put on 30 pounds.
So now I got to take them off.
You know, it gets harder andharder as you get older and
older.
SPEAKER_02 (24:44):
Well, the thing about Tesla that I'm just so
impressed with is that you havebeen going for decades.
I mean, you put out Shock in2019.
And then you put out the FiveMan London Jam, live from Abbey
Road.
That came out in March of 2020.
How have you been surviving thispandemic as a working musician?
SPEAKER_01 (25:09):
I'm unemployed.
Okay, I'm not working.
There's no work.
There's no money coming in.
Living off my bank account.
So that's how.
The government, they don't givea fuck about the musicians.
They don't even send us astimulus check, you know what I
(25:33):
mean?
It's just the way it is.
SPEAKER_02 (25:35):
Well, you're talking about so many different things,
panic attacks and anxiety andgoing through depression.
How would you describe yourmental and physical health
today?
SPEAKER_01 (25:47):
Mentally, I'm okay.
I'm pretty sound.
Physically, I'm a bit hudgy andI gotta get my shit together and
you know I've got this herniathat I'm dealing with but
mentally I'm okay physicallyI'll be alright I just gotta fix
this hernia so I can starttraining again and watch what
(26:08):
I'm eating and get back in shapehopefully we'll come and play
this summer
SPEAKER_02 (26:13):
well the vaccine is out and hopefully live music
will come back because as a fanI mean I know I so miss that
it's like my favorite favoritething and I would love to See
you guys live and out thererocking out.
SPEAKER_01 (26:30):
Well, we're going to try as soon as we can.
SPEAKER_02 (26:32):
What would you like to say to your fellow musicians
to encourage them to get mentalhelp?
You know, any kind of help whenit's needed.
SPEAKER_01 (26:42):
Don't be embarrassed.
Don't feel ashamed.
You're not weak.
Don't let someone make you feelinferior.
If you feel bad, talk tosomebody about it.
It doesn't make you less of aperson.
If anything, it makes you abigger person.
That's what I would tell them.
SPEAKER_02 (27:04):
I really appreciated the fact that in your book, you
included the suicide preventionline and the crisis text line
because that's something thatpeople can do anonymously.
SPEAKER_01 (27:16):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (27:18):
You know, and one more thing.
You mentioned that social mediacan sometimes be hurtful to your
mental health.
Can you tell me how social mediahas affected you negatively?
SPEAKER_01 (27:32):
Well, you don't look, man.
You do what I do, people arealways taking pictures of you,
right?
And, you know, I don't put adisclaimer out there.
Look, I suffer from an anxietydisorder that makes me have to
go on prindazone sometimes twoor three times a year, and my
weight goes up and down.
And when some guy in fuckingSouth America goes, look at that
(27:54):
fat motherfucker, you ought togo on a diet or get on a
treadmill.
But you pumped up on steroidsand were able to go play the
tour, it fucks with your head.
Because people can say whateverthey want, sit behind their
fucking computer and judge andtalk shit about anybody.
So I don't want people to blowsmoke up my ass, but I don't
(28:14):
think being vicious to somebodyis really quite the answer
either.
I don't need someone to tell meI'm great.
But to pick on people when youdon't even know what they may be
going through in their life,it's just being an asshole.
And that's what you get.
You get a free ticket to do thatwith social media.
You can talk shit about anybodyyou know I feel bad when they
(28:38):
talk about Vince Neal and talkall kinds of shit about him or
whoever it's just like you knowwhat if you ain't got nothing
good to say go to another pageor go look at porno whatever the
fuck you need to do man youdon't need to spew negativity it
doesn't help anybody but heyit's America freedom of speech
(29:01):
right
SPEAKER_02 (29:03):
Well, is there anything else that you would
like to say about Tesla, aboutSoul
SPEAKER_01 (29:07):
Mart?
Yeah, we're the greatest band inthe world.
SPEAKER_02 (29:12):
Well, you sold 14 million albums and counting, so
that
SPEAKER_01 (29:16):
is something to be proud of.
Tesla is my proudest thing inlife.
We've managed to persevere a lotof shit, and we're still there.
We're still playing.
We still sound really good.
And that makes me really proud.
And we do a lot of it on our ownthese days.
So, yeah, it's quite a saying.
SPEAKER_02 (29:37):
Well, thank you so much, Brian.
And thank you so much for themusic.
SPEAKER_01 (29:43):
So many
SPEAKER_02 (29:44):
decades of music.
UNKNOWN (29:45):
Thank you.
SPEAKER_02 (29:48):
Next up, we have an authority on mental health
education and a sought-afterspeaker and coach, Carl
Shallohorn, who was diagnosedwith bipolar disorder and fell
into his own addictions earlierin life.
Having found stability throughthe 12-step program, he has
since authored a number ofbooks, his last one entitled
Leadership Through the Lens ofthe 12 Steps.
(30:11):
Now let's hear expert CarlShallohorn share his knowledge
and his advice.
Brian Wheat of Tesla.
He mentioned in his interviewthat his mother might have had
manic depression, which is nowreferred to as bipolar.
And I wanted to start with yourown mental health journey
because I know that you've beendiagnosed with bipolar 1 and you
(30:35):
also had an addiction.
But what solutions did you findthat worked for you for bipolar
to allow you to live a betterlife?
SPEAKER_00 (30:43):
For me, it was more about I won't say trial and
error, but it was a long timeago.
I had my first episode in 1981.
I was a college freshman and I'dgone through in and out of
hospitals and using drugs and Iwasn't the best patient around
for a while.
But the first thing I did do wasstop using that got the ball
(31:05):
rolling to more stability in mylife.
And so I went to a 12-stepprogram, which I'm still
involved with today.
And so I went to this 12-stepprogram, and I realized that I
could have a life without usingdrugs.
And then on top of that, I beganto take the medication I was
prescribed as prescribedproperly, which I wasn't always
(31:29):
doing before.
And from there, I really beganto just develop a really good
support system.
I mean, first, my parents werevery helpful.
And then I ended up meeting mywife a few years into recovery.
And from there, my friends inthe program and things just
evolved.
And then I got into exercisealso.
I realized it was something Ihad to do to take care of my
(31:52):
overall well-being.
So it's a Overall, it's acombination of things that have
allowed me to stay free of anymanic episodes since 1995.
SPEAKER_02 (32:02):
Wow, that's really great to hear.
I love to hear the other side,like after somebody has found
the right solutions, because Iknow it's a long journey.
I mean, I've had my experienceswith depression and anxiety, and
it takes a while to find outwhat is going to work for you,
your lifestyle, your DNA, andall of these other things.
(32:22):
One thing that I was interestedin is you talked about the
people that are around you, yourwife, your family, your support
system.
Brian Wheat, he said his lifechanged dramatically when he met
his wife, who said she was notgoing to date somebody who was
high all the time.
Brian stopped.
(32:44):
From your experience, what hasbeen some of the key motivators
for people to get help?
SPEAKER_00 (32:50):
I think many times it is those relationships like
you just said, Mari.
Sometimes it comes down tosomeone saying either the drugs
or me.
Take your pick.
Now, it doesn't always work out,but a lot of times it's like
that wake-up call or sometimesthey say it's hitting bottom
that does it.
It could be being arrested.
It could be the potential oflosing a job or even losing a
(33:13):
gig in a band.
But a lot of times it's thatjarring experience that You have
that simple aha moment.
So let me tell you for me, Mari.
I remember vividly sitting in mycounselor's office.
I was using at the time, I wasstill dabbling here and there,
and I was still somewhatunstable.
And my counselor said to me, hesaid, Carl, I'm going to give
you three choices.
(33:33):
Either you go to rehab, you goto an NA meeting, or you end up
back in the hospital.
And I sat there and I thoughtabout it for a second.
And I was working in a recordingstudio.
That was actually my first jobout of college was at a
recording studio.
I said, I don't want to go.
I don't want to tell my boss Ihave a drug problem.
And then I said to myself,definitely don't want to go back
to the hospital.
(33:54):
So I took the path of leastresistance, as they say.
And I said, well, I'll go to anymeeting.
But little did I know, when Iwent two days later, it
literally changed my life.
I walked in.
And so that was it.
And so sometimes it's someonejust making you look at yourself
and what you're doing and makeyou realize that if you don't
make a change, it's not going tobe good.
SPEAKER_02 (34:14):
Right.
One thing I thought was reallyinteresting is that you also
talk on healthy relationships,which really is a great
foundation, not only for mentalhealth, but for life.
And I'm curious on what you tellloving partners, families, when
they're working with somebodythat has either a mental health
(34:36):
issue or addiction.
SPEAKER_00 (34:38):
One of the first words I always think of is
empathy.
And it's really hard sometimesto be empathetic when your loved
one is engaging in behavior or,say, acting in a way that makes
the relationship difficult.
But I always encourage familymembers to try the best they can
(35:00):
to have patience, to understandthat certainly no one wants a
mental illness.
No one wants to have a drugaddiction.
We can't necessarily blame theindividual.
Despite the fact that it mightseem like what they're doing is
their fault but we know thatthese are brain diseases and
they are physiological in natureso we have to approach it from
(35:21):
the perspective of looking atsomeone who's ill and so when
you look at it that way then youcould be maybe a little bit more
empathetic doesn't mean that yougive a person a pass but maybe
you're willing to say okay i'llwork with you on this i'll maybe
give you a little more time orgo with you to your therapist
appointment for the first timebut Sometimes we do know, Mari,
(35:43):
that unfortunately, people doburn bridges too.
And that's where thoserelationships are difficult to
repair.
But more often than anything,early on, it's important.
That early intervention is key.
So if a person is exhibiting aproblem, you want to get at it
as early as possible.
Like any other illness, whetherit be cancer, heart disease, you
name it.
You want to intervene early.
(36:05):
So that's another big thing too,is try to attack the problem
early.
SPEAKER_02 (36:08):
Okay.
Now, one thing...
you have in common with a lot ofpeople that come on the podcast
is that music has been yoursanctuary, especially during
your mental health issues.
And I'm wondering for you, whatis it about music that has
really helped you through thosetough times?
SPEAKER_00 (36:29):
Oh my gosh, Mari.
As the old saying goes, let mecount the ways.
Music for me is therapy.
It's just part of my DNA.
It soothes me.
It makes me feel.
There was only one time in mylife that I recall when I
listened to music, I didn't getanything out of it.
And that was when I was having amajor depressive episode as part
of bipolar many years ago.
But I've always felt music.
(36:49):
I don't just hear it, I feel it.
And I have music for every way Ifeel.
But music for me transcendseverything.
my own life experience.
It's been with me through thevery difficult times.
I can go back to any period ofmy life and remember a song that
got me through it.
One song in particular in myreally tough days was a song by
(37:12):
the English group The The, youknow, Matt Johnson.
The song is This Is The Day.
And I remember listening to thatalbum, Soul Mining, that whole
album, Soul Mining, that was thesoundtrack of my life in 1983.
Those songs just really, I justresonated with that.
So another real quick story waswhen my father died, I would go
(37:33):
and visit him in the nursinghome and play music for him when
he was dying.
And I played John Coltrane,Coltrane Plays the Blues.
And that was the last thing,last album that was playing when
he took his last breath.
Very sacred moment.
You know, like the soundtrack ofmy life.
That's really what it comes downto.
SPEAKER_02 (37:51):
Right, right.
All the emotion behind it, thelyrics.
And I'm not sure if you are amusician yourself, if you've
tried playing guitar orkeyboards or whatever.
But I also know once you getinto playing, everything drops
away.
It's a wonderful escape thatmakes us feel so good.
And we're in the now.
We're focused on just that.
(38:13):
What a great thing to focus onwhen things might feel like
they're falling apart aroundyou.
You know, Ryan, his storyinvolved a lot of different
kinds of addiction.
He talked about cocaine, alcoholuse.
He talked about bulimia, whichis sort of like an addiction to
losing weight.
(38:33):
Is there truth behind the termhaving an addictive personality?
What do you think about thatterm, having an addictive
personality?
SPEAKER_00 (38:42):
It's interesting you say it that way because I
believe that, in a sense, thatis true.
Because addictions are typicallysurrounding primarily behaviors,
but it also has to do withthoughts.
But usually there's some type ofbehavior behind it.
And oftentimes when you havesomeone who is addicted to
something, a behavior or asubstance, for instance, their
(39:03):
personality many times willmatch their usage or it will
mirror what they're doing.
Or it will amplify what they'reexperiencing.
For instance, some people whoexperience depression need some
type of a stimulant, forinstance, to feel better.
Like Brian was talking aboutusing cocaine to really get up.
(39:24):
But then again, when you'reengaging in that use, it takes
you to a place where it doesdistort your personality because
it's not the real you.
And I think, unfortunately, whena person is caught up in their
addiction, it can take them tothe place where perhaps they're
(39:45):
not acting or thinking the waythey typically would when they
wouldn't be using that substanceor that behavior.
SPEAKER_02 (39:54):
Yeah, you know, that's the thing about
self-medicating, which happens alot.
We grab what we think is goingto work instead of making a
phone call to a doctor.
therapist or trying somethingelse, if somebody is
self-medicating at a level whereit's been going on for a long
time, and somebody who did that,what do you say to try to
(40:15):
persuade them just to try adifferent way?
SPEAKER_00 (40:17):
That's a good question, Mari, because that is
one that I think many peoplehave struggled with for ages.
If it were that simple, then wewouldn't have people with
addiction problems.
But I will say this, though.
There are techniques, there aretools people can use in order to
help themselves overcome theiraddictions.
(40:39):
Certainly, in professionaltherapy, there's a lot to be
said for it, and there arecertain techniques in therapy.
One is called motivationalinterviewing, which therapists
use to help someone be moreself-directed in their recovery,
self-directed in theirdecision-making as to how they
respond tackle this problem.
Because when a person isactively addicted to something,
(41:01):
they may feel there's noproblem.
That's the pre-contemplationstage.
But then the contemplation stageis when they go into this
feeling of, yeah, I'm usingcocaine.
I like how it makes me feel, butI also realize that my band
members are really disgustedwith me when I can't perform.
And then the preparation stageis when you decide, okay, I'm
going to put it down.
(41:21):
I'm going to stop at a certaindate.
And then the action stage iswhen you decide to fully And
then the maintenance stage iswhen you are engaging in
proactive behaviors and soforth.
So the stage of change modelfollows motivational
interviewing, where you're justgiving that person the
opportunity to say, I'm makingthe decision here.
(41:42):
Sometimes when people areconfronted with their addictions
by others, those that are tryingto help are trying to give
advice or tell the person whatto do.
When more than anything,individuals need the opportunity
to know that they can beempowered to make the change.
They may need help, but theyneed to feel a sense of control
(42:04):
over what they're doing.
SPEAKER_02 (42:07):
Talking about mental health issues and drug use and
abuse, some people have beendoing this for so long that it's
become part of their self-image.
Maybe drinking is associatedwith socializing with other band
members.
There's all kinds of ties todrugs and alcohol through their
lifestyle.
What kind of change needs tohappen?
(42:31):
Because I would think that youwould need to have a change also
in your self-image if you'regoing to change that part of
your life.
Is that where therapy comes in?
SPEAKER_00 (42:41):
Yeah, but also it comes down to loving yourself.
I mean, the whole idea of wouldyou treat someone else like
you're treating yourself?
Think about it this way, Mari.
When a person is engaging in abehavior like you're describing,
which is addictive in nature,which are potentially
life-threatening, whether it bein the short term or the long
term, they're killingthemselves.
(43:03):
And you have to think about itthis way.
Think to yourself, what I'mdoing here is literally killing
me.
Why would I want to do that?
Do I love myself enough to stop?
And sometimes when faced withthat question, people can come
to the realization that I thinkI need to do something about
(43:24):
this.
And I've seen it in my own life.
I've seen people I know close tome who have made that decision.
And it was more a matter of lifesaving, because if they didn't,
then they'd be putting theirhealth at risk.
But it's hard, though, whenyou're surrounded by other
people who are engaging in thesebehaviors.
(43:46):
It's hard to get away from that,whether it be your musician or a
lot of times the music industryor any, you know, restaurant
work.
Even the same thing, there'speople who work in restaurants.
These environments where peopleare high stress and around it so
much that being able to justseparate yourself from it is
difficult.
But there are ways to do that,and it's being done all the
time.
(44:07):
We know that there are manymusicians who, who found their
way, whether it be through12-step programs or other
recovery models, who've beenable to successfully stop their
use and live healthy lives.
SPEAKER_02 (44:20):
Well, you know, you said a key thing, which is
loving yourself.
And I do believe that the coreof a lot of issues really kind
of boils down to loving yourselfand wanting to take care of
yourself.
I mean, was that an issue inyour situation, or did you find
that as soon as you startedhaving symptoms and realizing
(44:41):
that something wasn't quiteright, that you went immediately
to start to try to find yoursolutions?
SPEAKER_00 (44:48):
It's interesting you say that because, Amari, when I
had that session with thetherapist I described, my
decision was based on fear morethan anything.
Fear of the what-ifs.
If I don't change...
then my life is, and I'll tellyou, Mari, there's a local
institution here in Buffalo,which is still open.
It's called the BuffaloPsychiatric Center.
And I'd been in there twice, 20,21 years old with men who were
(45:12):
literally older, some of whomwere literally criminally
insane.
I kid you not.
And here I'm this kid thinkingto myself, is this my future?
So yeah, part of it was lovemyself enough to say I need to
make a change, but also it wasthat fear of if I don't change,
then this is what I'm lookingat.
And I may not die physically,but mentally, emotionally, I'll
(45:35):
be gone.
SPEAKER_02 (45:38):
You said the last time you had an episode was
what, 1995?
Yes.
And since then, I suspect thatyou've been in control and
disciplined.
How difficult has that been foryou to be, especially with your
addiction, to be in control anddisciplined with your mental
health and your addictionrecovery?
SPEAKER_00 (45:59):
It's not easy.
It's not easy.
Even now, every day, it's work.
And one of the things I stilldeal with now is around sleep.
And one of the things that'swell known is that people with
bipolar disorder, sleep is amust.
You got to get sleep.
When you lose sleep, that's notgood.
(46:19):
So for me, I have to still becareful of my sleep.
And also, I'm still in therapy.
I still have a psychiatrist, andI use my supports.
So I'm doing a lot of thosethings that I did since 1995, I
still do today.
And it's sort of like, if itain't broke, don't fix it.
I kind of got the recipe, I'llcall it that way, for work for
(46:45):
me.
And I'm not going to deviatefrom that.
And I've had some pretty closecalls over the years.
It hasn't been easy.
I've had some really roughpatches.
But fortunately, with a good,loving support system like my
wife, who has been essential.
She called me out just last yearwhen I was getting a little
hypomanic.
She said, you seem like you needto check in with your counselor,
(47:06):
with your psychiatrist, which Idid, and we kind of maybe
averted something there.
So it's a number of things, butit takes a lot of work.
And I don't wish these illnesseson anybody, I swear, not even on
my worst enemy, because it canbe torturous to a lot of people.
SPEAKER_02 (47:20):
Now, the medication that you're on, Has that changed
throughout the years or has thatbeen pretty good for you
throughout that time?
The same medication.
SPEAKER_00 (47:30):
That's a really good question too, because it took me
a number of years to find outwhat worked.
Now, when I got, I had my firstepisode in 1981, there were only
what we call them firstgeneration antipsychotics
around.
There's no Bilify, Latuda, noneof that stuff was around.
This is before all that.
So you had lithium for bipolardisorder.
(47:51):
I mean, That was about it.
And they still use lithiumtoday, but more often there's
other drugs.
And then I took anothermedication called Melaril, which
is in the same classification asThorazine.
So I took those medications fora long time.
I did develop some healthcomplications from lithium now
over time.
And what was that?
I'll just be honest.
I had some kidney issues,lithium toxicity.
(48:13):
So I had to change my medicationto another mood stabilizer
called Depakote.
UNKNOWN (48:19):
Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_00 (48:20):
I've been taking Depakote now for nine years.
My kidneys have been stabilized.
I see a nephrologist.
I've thought about it, and Irealized that at the time, I had
no choice.
If I had to do it all overagain, I probably would have
done it the same way.
I had to get my mind.
Without my mind, I can't doanything.
(48:41):
For anybody who takes anymedication now, do your
research.
I mean, there was no internet in1981, right?
A lot of people can have theadvantage of being able to do
their research now.
Do your research.
Ask questions.
And that's what I encouragepeople to do as well.
SPEAKER_02 (48:57):
Yeah, and understand that there's going to be a trial
and error period.
Absolutely.
And that things normally don'twork the first time around.
And if it does, you're reallylucky.
But now there is like a DNA testthat will show what kind of
medications that you are morelikely to have work.
(49:19):
And I didn't believe it at thetime, but I actually took the
test.
And this was after I finallyfound my solutions.
And I found that the medicationsthat I tried didn't work well
with my body.
And the ones that eventually didwork were on the list that said
these medications were bestaccording to your DNA.
(49:41):
And I was really surprised bythat.
And it's something that couldpossibly reduce the time for
that trial and error.
So I have that on my website.
I don't have it at the tip of mytongue, though, as far as the
name of the test.
But one thing that I was reallyinterested in is you are a
mental health first aidinstructor.
(50:03):
Yes.
And can you tell me more aboutthat?
SPEAKER_00 (50:05):
Well, mental health first aid is a program that was
developed in 2001 in Australia.
by a woman who was a nurse, andI believe another practitioner.
It came to the United States in2008 by the National Council for
Mental Wellbeing, which is theirnew name, and the states of
Maryland, Missouri.
What it is, it's a certificationprogram.
(50:27):
So think about CPR, but formental health.
What it does is it educatesparticipants in knowing what to
look for.
It teaches about signs andsymptoms of mental illnesses.
It reduces the stigma.
It helps raise awareness.
It gives individuals tools.
There's a five-step action planthat you learn to help someone
who's in a crisis.
(50:48):
So you learn about anxiety,depression, bipolar disorder,
schizophrenia, substance use.
There's videos in the training.
There's interactive exercises.
So it's an eight-hour training.
It's pretty intensive.
But I'll tell you, I've nowtaught probably close to 1,800
people.
And the feedback has beenoverwhelmingly resounding
(51:12):
positively that people enjoy thetraining and what they get out
of it.
And it's for anybody.
It's not for a clinician.
Anybody can take the training.
If you go tomentalhealthfirstaid.org and you
can search for a class, many ofthem are being offered for free
through grants.
A lot of them are now even beingoffered virtually.
Because if someone wants to takethe class, you go to
(51:32):
mentalhealthpersona.org, you canfind stuff and contact an
instructor, and that's a greatway to learn how to help someone
who might be in need.
SPEAKER_02 (51:40):
Well, one thing I read was that you spoke to a
group of police officers, andthey said they approach people
in a much different way, becauseoftentimes criminals can have
mental health issues, or peoplethat are acting...
their behavior is off and theyneed to understand or maybe have
more empathy when they approachthat person.
(52:02):
That really does make adifference.
So thank you so much for doingthat.
SPEAKER_00 (52:07):
Oh, yeah.
And our law enforcementcommunity, I think,
unfortunately, are in a toughbind.
We know that.
They have a really hard job.
But if they're equipped with thetools to know how to respond to
someone with a mental healthcrisis, everyone is better off.
SPEAKER_02 (52:20):
One thing I think is really important is when you
look back, when you were in thedepths of your mood disorder and
also with addiction versus yourlife today, can you tell me how
you feel about how your life haschanged and all the benefits
that come with that?
SPEAKER_00 (52:35):
Oh my God, Mari.
So in my 12-step program, one ofthe things we say is you can
have a life beyond your wildestdreams.
Now, we also say that the onlypromise we have is freedom from
active addiction.
But you can still live a lifebeyond your wildest dreams.
And my life is far beyond mywildest dreams.
(52:58):
I'm employed.
That was my first dream was justto have a job.
I'm married.
My wife and I have been marriedthis summer for 27 years.
I have two adult daughters whoare wonderful young women who
don't have addiction problems.
Thank God.
I'm able to have a podcast, asyou know, of my own.
I train people.
(53:19):
I educate people.
I do things that at one time inmy life were virtually
impossible because of where Iwas at mentally, emotionally.
So I'm a believer in faith.
I believe that there's acreator, higher power, as we
say, that perhaps I'm doing thework that I'm intended to do.
But I also feel very fortunate.
And then there's also anothersaying we have, we only keep
(53:40):
what we have by giving it away.
And I feel strongly that theonly way that I maintain my
recovery is by helping others.
And that's what I try to doevery day.
SPEAKER_02 (53:50):
Thank you so much for being a mental health
advocate and using yourexperience to better other
people's lives and giving themhope, which I think really is
the most important thing.
Because sometimes when you're atthe bottom and you just...
can't feel a thing because youjust don't care anymore and
you're exhausted.
Just that little sliver of hopeto know that somebody else was
(54:13):
able to come up from that meanseverything, you know, and that
little ounce of care thatsomebody can give, you know, can
mean everything.
But Carl Shallowheart, is thereanything else that you would
like to say about mental healthor addiction?
The
SPEAKER_00 (54:30):
last thing I'll say, what you just talked about with
hope, the one thing I always sayis recovery is possible.
And recovery looks different foreveryone, but it's always
possible beyond where you thinkyou can go.
And it takes a lot of work, butit is so worth it.
And you can have a life that younever thought you could have
(54:50):
before, even if it means justnot having to deal with some of
the symptoms you might beexperiencing.
But the bottom line is there's away to get better And as far as
I'm concerned, we're never fullyrecovered.
I will never be fully recovered.
That's why I always have tocontinue to work on what I'm
doing.
But I would never have it anyother way.
SPEAKER_02 (55:08):
Yes, there's a lot of great satisfaction in knowing
that you're helping others.
And your story is something thatcould be used for good, you
know, make people take the rightsteps.
So thank you so much, Carl.
SPEAKER_00 (55:22):
Thank you, Mari.
I've really enjoyed talking toyou.
SPEAKER_02 (55:25):
Yeah, it's been a pleasure.
A big thank you to our musicalguest, Brian Wheat of Tesla, and
our mental health expert, CarlShallohorn.
For more information on Teslaand Brian Wheat, visit
teslatheband.com and look outfor Tesla on Tour starting
August 6th of 2021.
(55:46):
Follow Tesla and Brian on theirsocials at TeslaBand and Brian
Wheat at Brian Wheat Tesla andat Brian Wheat.
For more information on CarlShallohorn, visit
shallohornconsulting.com andfollow Carl on his socials at
Shallohorn Consulting.
So until next time, be brave,ask for help, and be persistent
(56:10):
in finding the mental help thatyou need.
Check Your Head Podcast iskindly supported and partnered
with Sweet Relief MusiciansFund, DBSA San Gabriel Valley,
Earshot Media, and Lemon TreeStudios in Los Angeles.
Visit checkyourheadpodcast.comwhere we have over 100 solutions
for mental health.
(56:31):
Be our friends on social mediaat Check Your Head Podcast.
Watch us on YouTube and supportus with a kind donation on
checkyourheadpodcast.com.
Check Your Head Podcast issponsored by a 501c3 nonprofit
with all donations being taxdeductible.
Thank you for your support andthank you for listening.
Welcome to the Check Your Head podcast, the podcast
where notable musicians andexperts come and share their
stories and solutions for mentalhealth and wellness.
I'm your host, Mari Fong, amusic journalist and life coach
for musicians, and today I'mstarting with celebrations for
the month of June.
(00:20):
We are celebrating Juneteenth, aday that represents the end of
slavery, which has officiallybecome a national holiday on
June 19th.
And we're also celebrating PrideMonth in June, where we
celebrate our friends in theLGBTQ community.
Another important milestone tocelebrate is the coronavirus,
which has gotten to a new low inthe U.S.
(00:43):
due to people gettingvaccinated.
So to protect yourself from thispotentially deadly virus, I
encourage you to get vaccinatedso life can return for us all.
Next, a shout out to ChicanoBatman, a band who is having a
virtual benefit concert on June30th for our friends at Sweet
Relief Musicians Fund.
(01:03):
So if you'd like to celebrate byattending this special show,
visit ChicanoBatman.com orSweetRelief.org to purchase your
tickets.
Now to our featured guests.
Today we have a rock god.
The co-founder of a hair metalband started in 1982, a band
who's still rocking out today,having sold 14 million albums
(01:24):
and counting.
This band famously toured withthe likes of Def Leppard, Motley
Crue, and Van Halen, and arestill going strong with a tour
this year with Leonard Skinner.
Their last album dropped in2020, entitled Five Man London
Jam, best known for their songslike Love Song, Modern Day
Cowboy, and the cover of thesong, Signs.
(01:48):
Today we have the great bassplayer and keyboardist, Brian
Wheat of Tesla.
Brian recently published anautobiography called Son of a
Milkman, My Crazy Life withTesla.
Not only does Brian share hiswild, rockstar life, but also
his struggles with panicattacks, bulimia, depression,
and addictions, and hispractical solutions for recovery
(02:11):
in the book and on today'sepisode.
Next, our featured expert is amental health advocate, speaker,
educator, and author of thebook, Leadership Through the
Lens of the Twelve Steps.
Mental health expert CarlShallohorn talks to us today
about how he tackled his ownmood disorder and addictions and
(02:31):
how you can too.
But first, let's hear Brian Weedof Tesla share his story.
When Tesla started to rise infame, you started to have
anxiety and panic attacks.
How did you deal with thosepanic attacks when you were on
tour?
SPEAKER_01 (02:51):
Well, it didn't really happen until we were
making Psychotic Supper and Iwas in the studio.
I wasn't on tour when they firstcame along.
I've had some since then ontour, but I've learned how to
control it and how to recognizeit and deal with it.
But when they first startedcoming out, we were in the
(03:12):
rehearsal studio working onPsychotic Supper.
And one night I went torehearsal, we were in
pre-production.
And I threw up all over theplace and started freaking out.
Steve Thompson took me outside,our producer, and he said, look,
when we get to New York nextweek, my brother's a doctor at
the hospital.
We'll have him check you out andsee what's going on.
(03:34):
And that's when I was diagnosedwith the anxiety disorder.
SPEAKER_02 (03:40):
And you mentioned you didn't want to take
medication for the anxiety orthe panic attacks.
UNKNOWN (03:46):
No.
SPEAKER_01 (03:46):
Yeah, because I was already taking drugs
recreationally, you know, pills,and I didn't want to get more
pills.
So I decided to go thepsychiatry route, even though I
didn't really believe inpsychiatry at the time.
SPEAKER_02 (03:59):
Through your therapy, what things did you
learn to help deal with thosepanic attacks?
SPEAKER_01 (04:07):
Just to recognize what it was and tell yourself
that you were in control, notit.
And you play these mind gameswith yourself to talk yourself
off the ledge, so to speak.
Some breathing, deep breathingalways helps.
SPEAKER_02 (04:26):
What were some of the drugs that you were taking
at that time?
Because I do remember you sayingthat Psychotic Supper is when a
lot of the band members were inthe midst of drugs and alcohol.
SPEAKER_01 (04:39):
Oh, definitely.
Jeff smacked Tommy around a fewtimes, and that was definitely
over drugs.
Sometimes it was drugs andalcohol, and sometimes it was
just we got on each other'snerves.
That's what brothers do.
Siblings fight with each other.
We're no different.
We're just human.
SPEAKER_02 (04:59):
I couldn't keep up with all the different members
and the drugs that were going onthere.
What were some of your favoritedrugs that you were taking at
the time?
SPEAKER_01 (05:10):
I liked cocaine and ecstasy.
Those were the ones I got reallyinto in the later part of Tesla
before we broke up.
But before that, I wasn't intoanything.
I just used to drink.
SPEAKER_02 (05:27):
Yeah, I found that really interesting is that when
the other members were goingthrough their struggles, you
were pretty clean.
But it was only until later thatyou got into that.
So what was it that...
I guess, inspired you to startdoing more drugs and alcohol at
that time.
SPEAKER_01 (05:43):
Well, because they were.
So I wanted to connect withthem.
I went, well, let me see whatthis is all about.
SPEAKER_02 (05:49):
Okay, so it was more curiosity.
SPEAKER_01 (05:52):
Well, in the beginning, but then you liked
it.
You know, I mean, have you everdone drugs?
Yeah, I have.
Did you like them?
SPEAKER_02 (06:03):
Yeah, there were some drugs that I did enjoy.
SPEAKER_01 (06:06):
Yeah, exactly.
That's what I'm saying.
It's just human nature.
You do it out of curiosity, andthen you like them.
And then you either fuckingfigure a way to get outgrown, or
you end up paying the piper.
The story doesn't change.
I liked Benzos, you know?
Valium.
I was into that.
(06:27):
Quaalude.
You could still get Quaaludeback then.
But not a lot.
More than I was used to.
Not like I got later in lifewith cocaine and ecstasy.
I mean, I was full-on cokefreak.
So I was just dabbling with it,and I didn't want to take more
pills.
(06:47):
Not really a pill kind of
SPEAKER_02 (06:50):
guy.
When did it get to a point whereyou felt like you really needed
to do something about yourcocaine or your alcohol
SPEAKER_01 (06:57):
use?
Well, it was when Tesla finallybroke up.
And I hooked up with my wife,Monique.
She said, look, I won't date youif you're high.
So I said, okay, I can quit.
I don't need to take the drugs.
So I stopped.
Literally, like that.
SPEAKER_02 (07:14):
Really?
Just like that?
SPEAKER_01 (07:16):
Yeah, I'm one of those guys that can do that on
some things.
I wish I could stop some of theother things I start.
But with the drugs, I justwalked away from them.
I went, I don't need them.
And stopped.
SPEAKER_02 (07:29):
Well, that's really noble of you to be able to do
that because not everyone can dothat.
SPEAKER_01 (07:35):
No, not everyone can do that.
I was able to do that.
I was able to stop drinking.
It didn't really bother me.
I wish I could stop eating, butthat's a little bit harder.
SPEAKER_02 (07:48):
Oh, yeah.
It takes a lot of determinationand a lot of restraint.
I'm glad you brought that upbecause there was a point in
your life where you said you'rea big guy.
And you felt pressured to loseweight, the image of the band.
And you said you were borderlinebulimic.
SPEAKER_01 (08:07):
Yeah, for a few years, yeah, I was.
SPEAKER_02 (08:09):
Yeah, so can you tell me about that time in your
life and what was going throughyour head?
SPEAKER_01 (08:13):
What was going through my head was we were at
the height of our career and I'mtrying to stay as thin as I can.
And I got obsessed with myweight so much that I used to
carry a scale around in asuitcase.
And I went on the road, and if Istarted to put on weight, I
would stick my fingers down mythroat to throw up to what I had
(08:38):
eaten.
It was like, oh, no, no, I'mgetting five pounds over.
And that was kind of thisdangerous tightrope I was on for
about four or five years.
SPEAKER_02 (08:50):
Yeah, that's a good amount of time.
I mean, did you have anyphysical– Repercussions?
SPEAKER_01 (08:56):
Not really.
Not really, no.
Maybe I do now.
I don't know.
But at the time, no, I didn'thave any problems.
SPEAKER_02 (09:08):
So in that case, did you also do the same thing?
You just came to a point whereyou decided to stop doing that?
Or was there an
SPEAKER_01 (09:15):
incident?
Yeah, not just one day.
The band had broken up and I wasoff tour and maybe I didn't feel
as much pressure and I juststopped.
And then right about that time,then that's when the autoimmune
thing kicked in.
And then they started putting meon Perendazone.
I mean, Perendazone is going toput weight on you no matter what
(09:37):
the fuck you do.
So then I've struggled with thatfor the last 15 years.
My weight going up and down, upand down, up and down because of
the medication and the Crohn'sdisease.
The colitis and the Crohn's, theonly way they can really combat
it is with steroids, prednisone.
(09:57):
That's really bad for you.
It might take care of thecolitis, but it does all this
other shit to your body.
SPEAKER_02 (10:07):
You do mention your autoimmune disease throughout
the book and how it's affectedyou physically, but sometimes
autoimmune diseases can alsoaffect you you mentally and
physically.
Because you talk aboutdepression during the book.
There's one specific page whereyou really get into talking
about it.
Can you tell me about yourexperience with that?
SPEAKER_01 (10:29):
Well, I've had it from time to time, but I think
you're probably talking aboutwhen I was in Canada and I had
said in the book that I alwayscould never understand why these
guys killed themselves fromdepression.
I mean, I felt bad for him, butI could never understand how it
(10:49):
could get so bad you would takecare of life.
And there was a point when I wasin Canada that I had that kind
of depression.
Now, I'm not saying Icontemplated suicide, because I
didn't.
But it was so intense and sooverwhelming.
At that point, I said to myself,Okay, I get it.
(11:11):
I see how these guys justcouldn't put up with this
anymore or how someone couldn'tput up with this anymore.
And it was a pretty dark place.
SPEAKER_02 (11:22):
What was going on in your life at the time?
Was it something that just cameout of the blue or was it
precipitated
SPEAKER_01 (11:28):
by something else?
I was at the top of my game,man.
I was on tour with Def Leppardin Canada.
Everything was going great.
I don't know what the hellhappened.
And
SPEAKER_02 (11:41):
then when did things start turning around?
About
SPEAKER_01 (11:44):
six months later.
Okay.
Three, four months later.
But I'm pretty sure that thedepression was brought on
because I tried getting off myanti-anxiety medicine because I
went through this period where Ididn't want to take medicine
anymore.
I was like, I don't want to takethe pills.
I feel fine.
So it took about two and a half,three months to wean off this
(12:08):
Paxil stuff.
And I was fine for about threeor four months.
And then this depression kickedin out of nowhere.
And I finally had to go back onPaxil and it took care of me.
So I think the main thing is ifyou have to take medication for
depression, don't not take it.
Take the medicine.
(12:29):
It's there for a reason.
Don't feel like you're weak orinadequate or any of that shit.
Take the fucking medicine.
SPEAKER_02 (12:36):
Well, I'm glad that you shared that because
oftentimes that does happen.
You feel like you're goingthrough a chapter in your life
or an episode in your life andthat you don't need the
medication anymore.
And then people will do exactlywhat you do, which is wean off
and then find that they're introuble again.
Yeah,
SPEAKER_01 (12:56):
that's what happens.
And then it takes a while to getthe medicine back into your
system.
SPEAKER_02 (13:02):
Right, right.
It takes some time.
So that's also kind of anunstable time, having to wait
for the medication to kick backin.
So one of the things I think isreally important to know is some
of the thoughts that go throughyour head when you're deeply
depressed.
Was there anything that youthought of at the time that
(13:23):
really scared you or made youfeel like, wow, this is really
unusual for me to think thisway?
SPEAKER_01 (13:29):
Well, that freaked me out because I never felt that
way.
And that itself had me reallyanxious and uptight.
The fact that I wasn't feelingnormal.
It's just kind of like a catchasing its tail.
You know what I mean?
SPEAKER_02 (13:47):
You know, you said you didn't feel normal.
How would you describe that?
SPEAKER_01 (13:51):
Well, your body's not feeling right or your mind
doesn't feel right.
I mean, you're always in tunewith your body and what's going
on.
You can tell.
And it just didn't feel right.
Something was off.
Mentally, emotionally, it wasoff.
And it was freaking me out.
Because like I said, therewasn't nothing really tragic or
(14:12):
anything to have me upset.
It was just normal business asusual.
SPEAKER_02 (14:19):
Yeah, when we're depressed or when we're anxious,
sometimes we have thesethoughts.
Like, where did that come from?
And it really does scare us.
You said that at first youdidn't believe in psychiatry.
And there are a lot of peoplethat are just like, I don't want
to go to counseling.
But what was it that it reallygave you?
What did you receive fromcounseling and
SPEAKER_01 (14:42):
therapy?
Well, it made me look at myselfand recognize why I was the way
I was.
When they do that regressiontherapy and take you through
your childhood and all thatstuff...
Some people say, oh, it's abunch of bullshit, but it isn't.
Once you look at your childhood,you can figure out the lineage
to why you may have problemslater in your lives.
(15:06):
And that's what I got out of it.
SPEAKER_02 (15:10):
So what did you discover about your upbringing
that might have caused someissues in the future?
SPEAKER_01 (15:18):
Well, I didn't have a dad.
I was with my mom a lot.
She had some mental problems.
She had some nervous breakdownsI witnessed.
I had to grow up at a very earlyage to take care of her.
That stuff all puts this kind ofshit on me.
It's not like I was abused orsexually molested or anything
like that.
SPEAKER_03 (15:37):
That
SPEAKER_01 (15:38):
wasn't the case, but it's just other shit that when
you're a kid, it's too much foryou.
SPEAKER_02 (15:45):
Well, that is tough for a child to have to deal with
a parent that needs to beparented because they're
suffering from mental issues.
SPEAKER_01 (15:56):
Yeah, she was suffering from anxiety and
depression herself.
She just didn't know it.
Back then, she had her firstnervous breakdown when I was
like three or four.
I'm talking 1966, 67.
You know, they didn't Treatanxiety like they do now.
They put you in a psych ward andgave you shock treatments.
(16:20):
And that's the generation shecame from.
She probably was the manicdepressive.
They thought that everyone wascrazy back then, hysterical or
whatever the fuck they calledit.
Saw that weird booty witch shitback in those days.
SPEAKER_02 (16:35):
Right, right.
Not a whole lot of solid...
medication or solid therapiesthat people referred to.
So she never really was able toget any help for that.
Or did she
SPEAKER_01 (16:49):
eventually?
No, no.
But later in her life, they puther on these pills and she was
the best I'd ever saw her.
So they finally figured it out.
She was close to 80 years old.
She was like 77 years old andshe died four years later.
SPEAKER_02 (17:07):
I'm glad you brought that up because sometimes things
like that can get passed down.
And it's always good to knowyour family history.
And I wanted to get back to whenyou started to get into drugs
because oftentimes drugs can betied to mental health issues.
And there was a point where thecocaine got really bad and you
(17:31):
overdosed.
What was happening then and howdid you survive that?
SPEAKER_01 (17:36):
What was happening was I just got too high one
night.
You know, he liked something.
If I like a pizza, I'll eat thewhole pizza.
So I liked the cocaine, so Isnorted all of it.
And mixed that with a big bottleof red wine and it wasn't good.
(17:56):
It was not pretty.
So that's what happened.
How I survived it was my poormom was there at the house and I
called a friend of mine who wasin a sober program, told him
what I did, and he came and satwith me all night.
Then he tried to get me to gointo a 28-day program and stuff,
(18:19):
but I had to go on tour the nextweek, so that ain't going to
happen.
I'll just go on tour, and when Iget home, I promise I'll do it.
When I got home, we'd broken up.
The band had broken up.
So that's when I met my wife,and she's the one that said,
look, I can't date you if you'rehigh all the time.
So then I just stopped.
(18:42):
I didn't need a 28-day program.
I just stopped.
Thank God I met her.
Who knows?
I might have wind up dead.
SPEAKER_02 (18:51):
Well, your story kind of reminds me of Gilby
Clark.
I also interviewed Gilby Clarkand he said that there's all
kinds of things that happen whenyou're in a band.
But when he met his wife, it wasthe same kind of thing where
she, you know, led a muchhealthier life and wanted to
take care of him.
(19:11):
And I'm sure your wife feels thesame way about you.
Yeah,
SPEAKER_01 (19:14):
well, no one wants to feel like shit.
And sometimes you just don'tknow how to stop so you don't
have to feel like shit.
You know, a lot of things youdo, you self-inflict.
But I'm a believer that no onewants to feel like shit.
So if you can just get off thetrack for a second, you can get
off the merry-go-round,hopefully.
(19:37):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (19:38):
Well, your band, Tesla, toured so much, and there
were changes in your success.
And I would think that fame isalso kind of like an addiction,
right?
Did you feel that the fame alsogot to the heads of a lot of the
people in
SPEAKER_01 (19:55):
the band?
Yeah, it does to everybody.
You can't help it.
I mean, it's hard to be youngand successful and not be
affected by it.
You know, it happens.
I think it happens to everybody.
And you just got to hope thatyou're lucky enough that you
come off the other side of itand come back to some sense of
normality and realize that it'sjust your job and this is what
(20:17):
you do and you ain't special orbetter than anyone else.
It's just a gift you got thatthat's what you do.
And someone else does somethingelse really cool.
We all have something we're goodat.
But when you're young, it's hardnot to get caught up in the hype
and believe you're cool as fuck.
(20:39):
So it happens.
It happened to me and ithappened to lots of guys I know.
Fortunately, I don't trip on itanymore.
It's just like, okay, that's myjob.
You know what I mean?
SPEAKER_02 (20:52):
You were in Soul Motor also.
So when you started that, everyband starts off playing smaller
venues and building theiraudience.
How was that like when you We'replaying to stadiums of people
with Tesla and then having totransition and work a new fan
base.
SPEAKER_01 (21:12):
It was a difficult transition.
I call it paying back taxesbecause it happened for Tesla
fairly quick.
Tesla didn't have to spend fouror five years developing a fan
base.
It happened really quick.
And with Slow Mo, we're stilltrying to develop a fan base.
So it's back taxes.
(21:34):
for having it so quickly inTesla.
It's just the way God plannedit.
But it can be tough sometimeswhen you're playing to 12
people.
You know?
When you're used to paying10,000.
SPEAKER_02 (21:52):
Yeah, I can imagine.
SPEAKER_01 (21:53):
Yeah, but it builds character as well.
SPEAKER_02 (21:57):
Well, you know, you mentioned your friend Ross
Helfen.
the photographer.
And he mentioned that you flewout to England to be with him
when he was in a bad place inhis life and really considers
you a good friend.
Can you tell me how thatexperience was for you to take
action when your friend was inemotional pain?
SPEAKER_01 (22:18):
It's just how I am.
I like to help my friends.
If you're my friend, you're myfriend for life.
And I could see he was hurtingand he needed someone.
So we went.
And I would hope he would do thesame for me.
It's just what you do sometimesfor your friends.
SPEAKER_02 (22:41):
Yeah, I think sometimes just spending time
even next to your friend.
You might not even be doinganything special.
Just showing that you care canreally make a difference when
someone
SPEAKER_01 (22:52):
is
SPEAKER_02 (22:53):
not in a good place for whatever reasons.
And we all go through thosetimes in our lives.
You know, part of the podcast isabout solutions.
And you mentioned something inyour book called the HCG diet.
What is that?
SPEAKER_01 (23:08):
That is this diet that you take these shots.
And I think it's the pregnantwoman's hormone or something
when she's pregnant.
And you shoot them into yourbelly.
(23:28):
And it allows you to live onvery low calories.
Because it's like, when awoman's pregnant, if she doesn't
eat right, her body produces ahormone so the baby doesn't
starve.
So that's the theory behind it.
And I went on that one time andI lost a considerable amount of
(23:49):
weight.
But I was eating like 400calories a day.
That's not much.
No, it's not much at all.
But it did work at the time.
This last year has been fuckedbecause of COVID.
You don't know if you're evergoing to play again, and then
(24:10):
you get depressed, and then yousay, fuck it, give me a
cheeseburger.
I don't got to go on concert.
Because when you have to go onstage, you have to go on stage,
you're going to not eat as muchas you would like to Because you
go, I got to keep my imagetogether.
You know what I mean?
And I tell you, sitting aroundon my ass for a year with this
(24:32):
COVID thing has been, you know,I probably put on 30 pounds.
So now I got to take them off.
You know, it gets harder andharder as you get older and
older.
SPEAKER_02 (24:44):
Well, the thing about Tesla that I'm just so
impressed with is that you havebeen going for decades.
I mean, you put out Shock in2019.
And then you put out the FiveMan London Jam, live from Abbey
Road.
That came out in March of 2020.
How have you been surviving thispandemic as a working musician?
SPEAKER_01 (25:09):
I'm unemployed.
Okay, I'm not working.
There's no work.
There's no money coming in.
Living off my bank account.
So that's how.
The government, they don't givea fuck about the musicians.
They don't even send us astimulus check, you know what I
(25:33):
mean?
It's just the way it is.
SPEAKER_02 (25:35):
Well, you're talking about so many different things,
panic attacks and anxiety andgoing through depression.
How would you describe yourmental and physical health
today?
SPEAKER_01 (25:47):
Mentally, I'm okay.
I'm pretty sound.
Physically, I'm a bit hudgy andI gotta get my shit together and
you know I've got this herniathat I'm dealing with but
mentally I'm okay physicallyI'll be alright I just gotta fix
this hernia so I can starttraining again and watch what
(26:08):
I'm eating and get back in shapehopefully we'll come and play
this summer
SPEAKER_02 (26:13):
well the vaccine is out and hopefully live music
will come back because as a fanI mean I know I so miss that
it's like my favorite favoritething and I would love to See
you guys live and out thererocking out.
SPEAKER_01 (26:30):
Well, we're going to try as soon as we can.
SPEAKER_02 (26:32):
What would you like to say to your fellow musicians
to encourage them to get mentalhelp?
You know, any kind of help whenit's needed.
SPEAKER_01 (26:42):
Don't be embarrassed.
Don't feel ashamed.
You're not weak.
Don't let someone make you feelinferior.
If you feel bad, talk tosomebody about it.
It doesn't make you less of aperson.
If anything, it makes you abigger person.
That's what I would tell them.
SPEAKER_02 (27:04):
I really appreciated the fact that in your book, you
included the suicide preventionline and the crisis text line
because that's something thatpeople can do anonymously.
SPEAKER_01 (27:16):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (27:18):
You know, and one more thing.
You mentioned that social mediacan sometimes be hurtful to your
mental health.
Can you tell me how social mediahas affected you negatively?
SPEAKER_01 (27:32):
Well, you don't look, man.
You do what I do, people arealways taking pictures of you,
right?
And, you know, I don't put adisclaimer out there.
Look, I suffer from an anxietydisorder that makes me have to
go on prindazone sometimes twoor three times a year, and my
weight goes up and down.
And when some guy in fuckingSouth America goes, look at that
(27:54):
fat motherfucker, you ought togo on a diet or get on a
treadmill.
But you pumped up on steroidsand were able to go play the
tour, it fucks with your head.
Because people can say whateverthey want, sit behind their
fucking computer and judge andtalk shit about anybody.
So I don't want people to blowsmoke up my ass, but I don't
(28:14):
think being vicious to somebodyis really quite the answer
either.
I don't need someone to tell meI'm great.
But to pick on people when youdon't even know what they may be
going through in their life,it's just being an asshole.
And that's what you get.
You get a free ticket to do thatwith social media.
You can talk shit about anybodyyou know I feel bad when they
(28:38):
talk about Vince Neal and talkall kinds of shit about him or
whoever it's just like you knowwhat if you ain't got nothing
good to say go to another pageor go look at porno whatever the
fuck you need to do man youdon't need to spew negativity it
doesn't help anybody but heyit's America freedom of speech
(29:01):
right
SPEAKER_02 (29:03):
Well, is there anything else that you would
like to say about Tesla, aboutSoul
SPEAKER_01 (29:07):
Mart?
Yeah, we're the greatest band inthe world.
SPEAKER_02 (29:12):
Well, you sold 14 million albums and counting, so
that
SPEAKER_01 (29:16):
is something to be proud of.
Tesla is my proudest thing inlife.
We've managed to persevere a lotof shit, and we're still there.
We're still playing.
We still sound really good.
And that makes me really proud.
And we do a lot of it on our ownthese days.
So, yeah, it's quite a saying.
SPEAKER_02 (29:37):
Well, thank you so much, Brian.
And thank you so much for themusic.
SPEAKER_01 (29:43):
So many
SPEAKER_02 (29:44):
decades of music.
UNKNOWN (29:45):
Thank you.
SPEAKER_02 (29:48):
Next up, we have an authority on mental health
education and a sought-afterspeaker and coach, Carl
Shallohorn, who was diagnosedwith bipolar disorder and fell
into his own addictions earlierin life.
Having found stability throughthe 12-step program, he has
since authored a number ofbooks, his last one entitled
Leadership Through the Lens ofthe 12 Steps.
(30:11):
Now let's hear expert CarlShallohorn share his knowledge
and his advice.
Brian Wheat of Tesla.
He mentioned in his interviewthat his mother might have had
manic depression, which is nowreferred to as bipolar.
And I wanted to start with yourown mental health journey
because I know that you've beendiagnosed with bipolar 1 and you
(30:35):
also had an addiction.
But what solutions did you findthat worked for you for bipolar
to allow you to live a betterlife?
SPEAKER_00 (30:43):
For me, it was more about I won't say trial and
error, but it was a long timeago.
I had my first episode in 1981.
I was a college freshman and I'dgone through in and out of
hospitals and using drugs and Iwasn't the best patient around
for a while.
But the first thing I did do wasstop using that got the ball
(31:05):
rolling to more stability in mylife.
And so I went to a 12-stepprogram, which I'm still
involved with today.
And so I went to this 12-stepprogram, and I realized that I
could have a life without usingdrugs.
And then on top of that, I beganto take the medication I was
prescribed as prescribedproperly, which I wasn't always
(31:29):
doing before.
And from there, I really beganto just develop a really good
support system.
I mean, first, my parents werevery helpful.
And then I ended up meeting mywife a few years into recovery.
And from there, my friends inthe program and things just
evolved.
And then I got into exercisealso.
I realized it was something Ihad to do to take care of my
(31:52):
overall well-being.
So it's a Overall, it's acombination of things that have
allowed me to stay free of anymanic episodes since 1995.
SPEAKER_02 (32:02):
Wow, that's really great to hear.
I love to hear the other side,like after somebody has found
the right solutions, because Iknow it's a long journey.
I mean, I've had my experienceswith depression and anxiety, and
it takes a while to find outwhat is going to work for you,
your lifestyle, your DNA, andall of these other things.
(32:22):
One thing that I was interestedin is you talked about the
people that are around you, yourwife, your family, your support
system.
Brian Wheat, he said his lifechanged dramatically when he met
his wife, who said she was notgoing to date somebody who was
high all the time.
Brian stopped.
(32:44):
From your experience, what hasbeen some of the key motivators
for people to get help?
SPEAKER_00 (32:50):
I think many times it is those relationships like
you just said, Mari.
Sometimes it comes down tosomeone saying either the drugs
or me.
Take your pick.
Now, it doesn't always work out,but a lot of times it's like
that wake-up call or sometimesthey say it's hitting bottom
that does it.
It could be being arrested.
It could be the potential oflosing a job or even losing a
(33:13):
gig in a band.
But a lot of times it's thatjarring experience that You have
that simple aha moment.
So let me tell you for me, Mari.
I remember vividly sitting in mycounselor's office.
I was using at the time, I wasstill dabbling here and there,
and I was still somewhatunstable.
And my counselor said to me, hesaid, Carl, I'm going to give
you three choices.
(33:33):
Either you go to rehab, you goto an NA meeting, or you end up
back in the hospital.
And I sat there and I thoughtabout it for a second.
And I was working in a recordingstudio.
That was actually my first jobout of college was at a
recording studio.
I said, I don't want to go.
I don't want to tell my boss Ihave a drug problem.
And then I said to myself,definitely don't want to go back
to the hospital.
(33:54):
So I took the path of leastresistance, as they say.
And I said, well, I'll go to anymeeting.
But little did I know, when Iwent two days later, it
literally changed my life.
I walked in.
And so that was it.
And so sometimes it's someonejust making you look at yourself
and what you're doing and makeyou realize that if you don't
make a change, it's not going tobe good.
SPEAKER_02 (34:14):
Right.
One thing I thought was reallyinteresting is that you also
talk on healthy relationships,which really is a great
foundation, not only for mentalhealth, but for life.
And I'm curious on what you tellloving partners, families, when
they're working with somebodythat has either a mental health
(34:36):
issue or addiction.
SPEAKER_00 (34:38):
One of the first words I always think of is
empathy.
And it's really hard sometimesto be empathetic when your loved
one is engaging in behavior or,say, acting in a way that makes
the relationship difficult.
But I always encourage familymembers to try the best they can
(35:00):
to have patience, to understandthat certainly no one wants a
mental illness.
No one wants to have a drugaddiction.
We can't necessarily blame theindividual.
Despite the fact that it mightseem like what they're doing is
their fault but we know thatthese are brain diseases and
they are physiological in natureso we have to approach it from
(35:21):
the perspective of looking atsomeone who's ill and so when
you look at it that way then youcould be maybe a little bit more
empathetic doesn't mean that yougive a person a pass but maybe
you're willing to say okay i'llwork with you on this i'll maybe
give you a little more time orgo with you to your therapist
appointment for the first timebut Sometimes we do know, Mari,
(35:43):
that unfortunately, people doburn bridges too.
And that's where thoserelationships are difficult to
repair.
But more often than anything,early on, it's important.
That early intervention is key.
So if a person is exhibiting aproblem, you want to get at it
as early as possible.
Like any other illness, whetherit be cancer, heart disease, you
name it.
You want to intervene early.
(36:05):
So that's another big thing too,is try to attack the problem
early.
SPEAKER_02 (36:08):
Okay.
Now, one thing...
you have in common with a lot ofpeople that come on the podcast
is that music has been yoursanctuary, especially during
your mental health issues.
And I'm wondering for you, whatis it about music that has
really helped you through thosetough times?
SPEAKER_00 (36:29):
Oh my gosh, Mari.
As the old saying goes, let mecount the ways.
Music for me is therapy.
It's just part of my DNA.
It soothes me.
It makes me feel.
There was only one time in mylife that I recall when I
listened to music, I didn't getanything out of it.
And that was when I was having amajor depressive episode as part
of bipolar many years ago.
But I've always felt music.
(36:49):
I don't just hear it, I feel it.
And I have music for every way Ifeel.
But music for me transcendseverything.
my own life experience.
It's been with me through thevery difficult times.
I can go back to any period ofmy life and remember a song that
got me through it.
One song in particular in myreally tough days was a song by
(37:12):
the English group The The, youknow, Matt Johnson.
The song is This Is The Day.
And I remember listening to thatalbum, Soul Mining, that whole
album, Soul Mining, that was thesoundtrack of my life in 1983.
Those songs just really, I justresonated with that.
So another real quick story waswhen my father died, I would go
(37:33):
and visit him in the nursinghome and play music for him when
he was dying.
And I played John Coltrane,Coltrane Plays the Blues.
And that was the last thing,last album that was playing when
he took his last breath.
Very sacred moment.
You know, like the soundtrack ofmy life.
That's really what it comes downto.
SPEAKER_02 (37:51):
Right, right.
All the emotion behind it, thelyrics.
And I'm not sure if you are amusician yourself, if you've
tried playing guitar orkeyboards or whatever.
But I also know once you getinto playing, everything drops
away.
It's a wonderful escape thatmakes us feel so good.
And we're in the now.
We're focused on just that.
(38:13):
What a great thing to focus onwhen things might feel like
they're falling apart aroundyou.
You know, Ryan, his storyinvolved a lot of different
kinds of addiction.
He talked about cocaine, alcoholuse.
He talked about bulimia, whichis sort of like an addiction to
losing weight.
(38:33):
Is there truth behind the termhaving an addictive personality?
What do you think about thatterm, having an addictive
personality?
SPEAKER_00 (38:42):
It's interesting you say it that way because I
believe that, in a sense, thatis true.
Because addictions are typicallysurrounding primarily behaviors,
but it also has to do withthoughts.
But usually there's some type ofbehavior behind it.
And oftentimes when you havesomeone who is addicted to
something, a behavior or asubstance, for instance, their
(39:03):
personality many times willmatch their usage or it will
mirror what they're doing.
Or it will amplify what they'reexperiencing.
For instance, some people whoexperience depression need some
type of a stimulant, forinstance, to feel better.
Like Brian was talking aboutusing cocaine to really get up.
(39:24):
But then again, when you'reengaging in that use, it takes
you to a place where it doesdistort your personality because
it's not the real you.
And I think, unfortunately, whena person is caught up in their
addiction, it can take them tothe place where perhaps they're
(39:45):
not acting or thinking the waythey typically would when they
wouldn't be using that substanceor that behavior.
SPEAKER_02 (39:54):
Yeah, you know, that's the thing about
self-medicating, which happens alot.
We grab what we think is goingto work instead of making a
phone call to a doctor.
therapist or trying somethingelse, if somebody is
self-medicating at a level whereit's been going on for a long
time, and somebody who did that,what do you say to try to
(40:15):
persuade them just to try adifferent way?
SPEAKER_00 (40:17):
That's a good question, Mari, because that is
one that I think many peoplehave struggled with for ages.
If it were that simple, then wewouldn't have people with
addiction problems.
But I will say this, though.
There are techniques, there aretools people can use in order to
help themselves overcome theiraddictions.
(40:39):
Certainly, in professionaltherapy, there's a lot to be
said for it, and there arecertain techniques in therapy.
One is called motivationalinterviewing, which therapists
use to help someone be moreself-directed in their recovery,
self-directed in theirdecision-making as to how they
respond tackle this problem.
Because when a person isactively addicted to something,
(41:01):
they may feel there's noproblem.
That's the pre-contemplationstage.
But then the contemplation stageis when they go into this
feeling of, yeah, I'm usingcocaine.
I like how it makes me feel, butI also realize that my band
members are really disgustedwith me when I can't perform.
And then the preparation stageis when you decide, okay, I'm
going to put it down.
(41:21):
I'm going to stop at a certaindate.
And then the action stage iswhen you decide to fully And
then the maintenance stage iswhen you are engaging in
proactive behaviors and soforth.
So the stage of change modelfollows motivational
interviewing, where you're justgiving that person the
opportunity to say, I'm makingthe decision here.
(41:42):
Sometimes when people areconfronted with their addictions
by others, those that are tryingto help are trying to give
advice or tell the person whatto do.
When more than anything,individuals need the opportunity
to know that they can beempowered to make the change.
They may need help, but theyneed to feel a sense of control
(42:04):
over what they're doing.
SPEAKER_02 (42:07):
Talking about mental health issues and drug use and
abuse, some people have beendoing this for so long that it's
become part of their self-image.
Maybe drinking is associatedwith socializing with other band
members.
There's all kinds of ties todrugs and alcohol through their
lifestyle.
What kind of change needs tohappen?
(42:31):
Because I would think that youwould need to have a change also
in your self-image if you'regoing to change that part of
your life.
Is that where therapy comes in?
SPEAKER_00 (42:41):
Yeah, but also it comes down to loving yourself.
I mean, the whole idea of wouldyou treat someone else like
you're treating yourself?
Think about it this way, Mari.
When a person is engaging in abehavior like you're describing,
which is addictive in nature,which are potentially
life-threatening, whether it bein the short term or the long
term, they're killingthemselves.
(43:03):
And you have to think about itthis way.
Think to yourself, what I'mdoing here is literally killing
me.
Why would I want to do that?
Do I love myself enough to stop?
And sometimes when faced withthat question, people can come
to the realization that I thinkI need to do something about
(43:24):
this.
And I've seen it in my own life.
I've seen people I know close tome who have made that decision.
And it was more a matter of lifesaving, because if they didn't,
then they'd be putting theirhealth at risk.
But it's hard, though, whenyou're surrounded by other
people who are engaging in thesebehaviors.
(43:46):
It's hard to get away from that,whether it be your musician or a
lot of times the music industryor any, you know, restaurant
work.
Even the same thing, there'speople who work in restaurants.
These environments where peopleare high stress and around it so
much that being able to justseparate yourself from it is
difficult.
But there are ways to do that,and it's being done all the
time.
(44:07):
We know that there are manymusicians who, who found their
way, whether it be through12-step programs or other
recovery models, who've beenable to successfully stop their
use and live healthy lives.
SPEAKER_02 (44:20):
Well, you know, you said a key thing, which is
loving yourself.
And I do believe that the coreof a lot of issues really kind
of boils down to loving yourselfand wanting to take care of
yourself.
I mean, was that an issue inyour situation, or did you find
that as soon as you startedhaving symptoms and realizing
(44:41):
that something wasn't quiteright, that you went immediately
to start to try to find yoursolutions?
SPEAKER_00 (44:48):
It's interesting you say that because, Amari, when I
had that session with thetherapist I described, my
decision was based on fear morethan anything.
Fear of the what-ifs.
If I don't change...
then my life is, and I'll tellyou, Mari, there's a local
institution here in Buffalo,which is still open.
It's called the BuffaloPsychiatric Center.
And I'd been in there twice, 20,21 years old with men who were
(45:12):
literally older, some of whomwere literally criminally
insane.
I kid you not.
And here I'm this kid thinkingto myself, is this my future?
So yeah, part of it was lovemyself enough to say I need to
make a change, but also it wasthat fear of if I don't change,
then this is what I'm lookingat.
And I may not die physically,but mentally, emotionally, I'll
(45:35):
be gone.
SPEAKER_02 (45:38):
You said the last time you had an episode was
what, 1995?
Yes.
And since then, I suspect thatyou've been in control and
disciplined.
How difficult has that been foryou to be, especially with your
addiction, to be in control anddisciplined with your mental
health and your addictionrecovery?
SPEAKER_00 (45:59):
It's not easy.
It's not easy.
Even now, every day, it's work.
And one of the things I stilldeal with now is around sleep.
And one of the things that'swell known is that people with
bipolar disorder, sleep is amust.
You got to get sleep.
When you lose sleep, that's notgood.
(46:19):
So for me, I have to still becareful of my sleep.
And also, I'm still in therapy.
I still have a psychiatrist, andI use my supports.
So I'm doing a lot of thosethings that I did since 1995, I
still do today.
And it's sort of like, if itain't broke, don't fix it.
I kind of got the recipe, I'llcall it that way, for work for
(46:45):
me.
And I'm not going to deviatefrom that.
And I've had some pretty closecalls over the years.
It hasn't been easy.
I've had some really roughpatches.
But fortunately, with a good,loving support system like my
wife, who has been essential.
She called me out just last yearwhen I was getting a little
hypomanic.
She said, you seem like you needto check in with your counselor,
(47:06):
with your psychiatrist, which Idid, and we kind of maybe
averted something there.
So it's a number of things, butit takes a lot of work.
And I don't wish these illnesseson anybody, I swear, not even on
my worst enemy, because it canbe torturous to a lot of people.
SPEAKER_02 (47:20):
Now, the medication that you're on, Has that changed
throughout the years or has thatbeen pretty good for you
throughout that time?
The same medication.
SPEAKER_00 (47:30):
That's a really good question too, because it took me
a number of years to find outwhat worked.
Now, when I got, I had my firstepisode in 1981, there were only
what we call them firstgeneration antipsychotics
around.
There's no Bilify, Latuda, noneof that stuff was around.
This is before all that.
So you had lithium for bipolardisorder.
(47:51):
I mean, That was about it.
And they still use lithiumtoday, but more often there's
other drugs.
And then I took anothermedication called Melaril, which
is in the same classification asThorazine.
So I took those medications fora long time.
I did develop some healthcomplications from lithium now
over time.
And what was that?
I'll just be honest.
I had some kidney issues,lithium toxicity.
(48:13):
So I had to change my medicationto another mood stabilizer
called Depakote.
UNKNOWN (48:19):
Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_00 (48:20):
I've been taking Depakote now for nine years.
My kidneys have been stabilized.
I see a nephrologist.
I've thought about it, and Irealized that at the time, I had
no choice.
If I had to do it all overagain, I probably would have
done it the same way.
I had to get my mind.
Without my mind, I can't doanything.
(48:41):
For anybody who takes anymedication now, do your
research.
I mean, there was no internet in1981, right?
A lot of people can have theadvantage of being able to do
their research now.
Do your research.
Ask questions.
And that's what I encouragepeople to do as well.
SPEAKER_02 (48:57):
Yeah, and understand that there's going to be a trial
and error period.
Absolutely.
And that things normally don'twork the first time around.
And if it does, you're reallylucky.
But now there is like a DNA testthat will show what kind of
medications that you are morelikely to have work.
(49:19):
And I didn't believe it at thetime, but I actually took the
test.
And this was after I finallyfound my solutions.
And I found that the medicationsthat I tried didn't work well
with my body.
And the ones that eventually didwork were on the list that said
these medications were bestaccording to your DNA.
(49:41):
And I was really surprised bythat.
And it's something that couldpossibly reduce the time for
that trial and error.
So I have that on my website.
I don't have it at the tip of mytongue, though, as far as the
name of the test.
But one thing that I was reallyinterested in is you are a
mental health first aidinstructor.
(50:03):
Yes.
And can you tell me more aboutthat?
SPEAKER_00 (50:05):
Well, mental health first aid is a program that was
developed in 2001 in Australia.
by a woman who was a nurse, andI believe another practitioner.
It came to the United States in2008 by the National Council for
Mental Wellbeing, which is theirnew name, and the states of
Maryland, Missouri.
What it is, it's a certificationprogram.
(50:27):
So think about CPR, but formental health.
What it does is it educatesparticipants in knowing what to
look for.
It teaches about signs andsymptoms of mental illnesses.
It reduces the stigma.
It helps raise awareness.
It gives individuals tools.
There's a five-step action planthat you learn to help someone
who's in a crisis.
(50:48):
So you learn about anxiety,depression, bipolar disorder,
schizophrenia, substance use.
There's videos in the training.
There's interactive exercises.
So it's an eight-hour training.
It's pretty intensive.
But I'll tell you, I've nowtaught probably close to 1,800
people.
And the feedback has beenoverwhelmingly resounding
(51:12):
positively that people enjoy thetraining and what they get out
of it.
And it's for anybody.
It's not for a clinician.
Anybody can take the training.
If you go tomentalhealthfirstaid.org and you
can search for a class, many ofthem are being offered for free
through grants.
A lot of them are now even beingoffered virtually.
Because if someone wants to takethe class, you go to
(51:32):
mentalhealthpersona.org, you canfind stuff and contact an
instructor, and that's a greatway to learn how to help someone
who might be in need.
SPEAKER_02 (51:40):
Well, one thing I read was that you spoke to a
group of police officers, andthey said they approach people
in a much different way, becauseoftentimes criminals can have
mental health issues, or peoplethat are acting...
their behavior is off and theyneed to understand or maybe have
more empathy when they approachthat person.
(52:02):
That really does make adifference.
So thank you so much for doingthat.
SPEAKER_00 (52:07):
Oh, yeah.
And our law enforcementcommunity, I think,
unfortunately, are in a toughbind.
We know that.
They have a really hard job.
But if they're equipped with thetools to know how to respond to
someone with a mental healthcrisis, everyone is better off.
SPEAKER_02 (52:20):
One thing I think is really important is when you
look back, when you were in thedepths of your mood disorder and
also with addiction versus yourlife today, can you tell me how
you feel about how your life haschanged and all the benefits
that come with that?
SPEAKER_00 (52:35):
Oh my God, Mari.
So in my 12-step program, one ofthe things we say is you can
have a life beyond your wildestdreams.
Now, we also say that the onlypromise we have is freedom from
active addiction.
But you can still live a lifebeyond your wildest dreams.
And my life is far beyond mywildest dreams.
(52:58):
I'm employed.
That was my first dream was justto have a job.
I'm married.
My wife and I have been marriedthis summer for 27 years.
I have two adult daughters whoare wonderful young women who
don't have addiction problems.
Thank God.
I'm able to have a podcast, asyou know, of my own.
I train people.
(53:19):
I educate people.
I do things that at one time inmy life were virtually
impossible because of where Iwas at mentally, emotionally.
So I'm a believer in faith.
I believe that there's acreator, higher power, as we
say, that perhaps I'm doing thework that I'm intended to do.
But I also feel very fortunate.
And then there's also anothersaying we have, we only keep
(53:40):
what we have by giving it away.
And I feel strongly that theonly way that I maintain my
recovery is by helping others.
And that's what I try to doevery day.
SPEAKER_02 (53:50):
Thank you so much for being a mental health
advocate and using yourexperience to better other
people's lives and giving themhope, which I think really is
the most important thing.
Because sometimes when you're atthe bottom and you just...
can't feel a thing because youjust don't care anymore and
you're exhausted.
Just that little sliver of hopeto know that somebody else was
(54:13):
able to come up from that meanseverything, you know, and that
little ounce of care thatsomebody can give, you know, can
mean everything.
But Carl Shallowheart, is thereanything else that you would
like to say about mental healthor addiction?
The
SPEAKER_00 (54:30):
last thing I'll say, what you just talked about with
hope, the one thing I always sayis recovery is possible.
And recovery looks different foreveryone, but it's always
possible beyond where you thinkyou can go.
And it takes a lot of work, butit is so worth it.
And you can have a life that younever thought you could have
(54:50):
before, even if it means justnot having to deal with some of
the symptoms you might beexperiencing.
But the bottom line is there's away to get better And as far as
I'm concerned, we're never fullyrecovered.
I will never be fully recovered.
That's why I always have tocontinue to work on what I'm
doing.
But I would never have it anyother way.
SPEAKER_02 (55:08):
Yes, there's a lot of great satisfaction in knowing
that you're helping others.
And your story is something thatcould be used for good, you
know, make people take the rightsteps.
So thank you so much, Carl.
SPEAKER_00 (55:22):
Thank you, Mari.
I've really enjoyed talking toyou.
SPEAKER_02 (55:25):
Yeah, it's been a pleasure.
A big thank you to our musicalguest, Brian Wheat of Tesla, and
our mental health expert, CarlShallohorn.
For more information on Teslaand Brian Wheat, visit
teslatheband.com and look outfor Tesla on Tour starting
August 6th of 2021.
(55:46):
Follow Tesla and Brian on theirsocials at TeslaBand and Brian
Wheat at Brian Wheat Tesla andat Brian Wheat.
For more information on CarlShallohorn, visit
shallohornconsulting.com andfollow Carl on his socials at
Shallohorn Consulting.
So until next time, be brave,ask for help, and be persistent
(56:10):
in finding the mental help thatyou need.
Check Your Head Podcast iskindly supported and partnered
with Sweet Relief MusiciansFund, DBSA San Gabriel Valley,
Earshot Media, and Lemon TreeStudios in Los Angeles.
Visit checkyourheadpodcast.comwhere we have over 100 solutions
for mental health.
(56:31):
Be our friends on social mediaat Check Your Head Podcast.
Watch us on YouTube and supportus with a kind donation on
checkyourheadpodcast.com.
Check Your Head Podcast issponsored by a 501c3 nonprofit
with all donations being taxdeductible.
Thank you for your support andthank you for listening.
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