September 7, 2021 • 52 mins
Mari Fong interviews singer-songwriter Cap Carter and USC's Director of Belonging and Loneliness Expert, Cat Moore. Cap Carter shares his solutions for depression and addiction recovery having experienced a painful childhood and the difficult divorce of his parents. Cap’s single “Relapse,” started out as an exit song but became the song that saved his life. Addiction recovery with the 12-step program helped resolved connections with his father and begin a new chapter in his musical career.
Next, we have loneliness expert and USC’s Director of Belonging, Cat Moore who guides us in how to make friends and lasting connections even during tough separations such as the pandemic. Cat shares the 5 components of making meaningful relationships and ways to feel like you belong wherever you go in life.
“Be brave, ask for help, and be persistent in finding the mental help that you need.” For 125+ free or affordable solutions for mental health recovery, visit: http://checkyourheadpodcast.com/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_02 (00:00):
Welcome to the Check Your Head podcast, the podcast
where notable musicians andexperts share their stories and
solutions for mental health andwellness.
I'm your host, Mari Fong, amusic journalist and life coach
for musicians, and we are inSeptember, a month that
represents a lot of what theCheck Your Head podcast is
(00:22):
about.
September is National SuicidePrevention Month, but it's also
National Recovery Month,National Self-Care Awareness
Month, and NationalSelf-Improvement Month, which
leads us to our featured musicalguest, who seems to touch on all
those things.
Today's guest is a risingsinger-songwriter, born in the
Philippines but grew up in atough, crime-filled neighborhood
(00:44):
in Sydney, Australia, with apainful childhood caused by an
ugly divorce between hisparents.
Pouring anger and sadness intohis music, Cap Carter wrote his
single Relapse as he struggledwith addiction and depression, a
song that he wrote to end hislife, but actually ended up
saving his life.
Cap Carter will share hissolutions for recovery, and
(01:05):
we'll play a clip of Relapse atthe end of our episode.
Next, we have a mental healthexpert who speaks on the topic
of loneliness.
Loneliness that we could feelduring dark times.
loneliness that could happen ontour, and loneliness experienced
during this pandemic.
Today's expert is Kat Moore, whobuilt a career on teaching
(01:26):
others how to make lastingfriendships and is USC's first
Director of Belonging.
Kat guides us on how to makethese lasting connections, along
with the five things we can alldo to create meaningful
relationships.
But first, let's hearsinger-songwriter Cap Carter
share his story.
You were born in thePhilippines, but you grew up in
(01:48):
Sydney, Australia, and youdropped your single, Relapse.
With Relapse, you said you wrotethat during one of the darkest
periods of your life, and yousaid the song was almost like an
exit song.
Now, what did you mean by that,an exit song?
SPEAKER_00 (02:03):
I meant that in the way of that I couldn't see a way
out, struggling with depressionand I'd just come off a band, a
pretty bad band breakup.
And I had, now looking back,delusions of grandeur with the
band and thinking that, hey, youknow, we could make it.
(02:25):
And then the band broke up.
My life fell apart.
I took it as the universe's wayof saying, you're done.
You're done with music.
You know, something that I'vebeen chasing for the last 15
years.
And I took it to heart.
I took it really bad.
Went to a dark space.
So I wrote this song, Relapse,really as a way of saying, this
is it.
You know?
struggling with the ideation ofsuicide at the time.
(02:46):
And it was supposed to be mylast song.
SPEAKER_02 (02:50):
Really?
Yeah.
So that was like almost agoodbye note or something?
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (02:57):
It's quite heavy.
It's heavy.
It's real heavy.
SPEAKER_02 (03:01):
What was it that kept you from doing that?
SPEAKER_00 (03:05):
Looking back at the time, I had a friend reach out,
a friend who did not know what Iwas going through.
I didn't know how to tell peoplewhat was really going on inside.
I just couldn't bring myself todo that.
But this friend reached out, noteven to check up on me.
He was just like, do you want torecord some music?
I got some free studio time.
(03:27):
And I was just like, you knowwhat?
Let's do it.
I got this one song.
Little did he know what I wasreally meaning was I got this
one last song.
And so we recorded the song andthen we posted it up three years
ago and started to resonate withpeople.
And we started to get messages.
I started to get messages ofpeople who sang that the song
helped.
And it was like 30,000, 40,000views overnight, which was nice
(03:50):
as an independent artist comingup at that time.
It was nice to know that maybethat there was some sort of
purpose to things happening.
And I think that's what kept mea sense of purpose.
And over time, the arrowsstarted pointing out.
I think when the arrows startpointing out when you're in such
(04:12):
a dark headspace, you can startto see things clearer.
But when the arrows startpointing out, that's when I saw
a light.
SPEAKER_02 (04:22):
That's an interesting way of putting it.
The arrows started to point out.
It almost sounded like you wereguided.
out or you know that there wassome sort of intuitive messages
that you were getting that saidyou are here for a reason and
your music is it's healing youbut it's healing other people
because they're starting to feeland sense these emotions that
(04:46):
are coming out and oftentimeswhen you're in that place you
feel really alone so what was itthat you feel was sort of
guiding you
SPEAKER_00 (04:57):
I mean, the backstory to this is that my mum
actually taught me to love musicat a young age in the
Philippines and then growing upin Sydney.
But her and dad had this ugly,ugly divorce and it just put a
lot of insecurity in my life.
So music for me is very muchintertwined with mum.
(05:19):
And so when mum left, that waslike, There's already
abandonment there.
But then when music left, I wasjust like, holy crap, what is
there to live for now?
So going back to the question, Ifeel like purpose is huge.
(05:39):
I saw a purpose in helpingpeople.
I saw that the music wasreaching people.
We used to get really, reallyheavy messages.
We still do.
People who were struggling withtheir mental health and also
wanted to exit, wanted to leave.
I heard that the song was like astrong arm that it reached out
(06:03):
to them and hugged them.
It kept me going.
SPEAKER_02 (06:05):
That's amazing.
Now, can you remember some ofthe messages that you got from
listeners?
What were they saying?
SPEAKER_00 (06:15):
Yeah.
to my, it's both a strength anda weakness, I think for me, but
I'm a big empath.
So I feel it strongly whensomeone slides into those DMs
and says like, dude, I wanted totake my life.
And then I heard your song andit gave me hope, or I found a
light along the way.
I listened to all your tracks,but it is one message actually
(06:36):
that has stood out.
And this person was saying howthey were struggling at the time
with ideation of suicide andaddiction and, And me not being
a mental health professional,all I did was say, dude, so much
to live for.
Go and get professional help.
This person came back aboutthree months later and didn't
(06:57):
reply to my message at all.
That initial message, he cameback three months later and he
said, I just wanted to let youknow I took your advice.
And I'm on my last day at myrehab program.
I'm 180 days clean and I'mliving my best life.
And that to me was just like,wow, man, people really do
listen.
People really do, you know, ifpeople are looking for hope, if
(07:21):
people are looking for some sortof light, you can be that as an
artist and as a musician.
So I screenshotted that and it'sjust a reminder why as a
musician I create.
SPEAKER_02 (07:35):
Wow.
Thank you for writing that song.
You know, it's amazing, though,how words and emotion given to
somebody else can help healthem.
And oftentimes, we're not eventhinking about it when that
happens.
SPEAKER_03 (07:49):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (07:50):
But, you know, you were talking about your parents
when they got divorced, and youwere a mere 10 years old.
And oftentimes, being a child...
You have a different perspectiveon what that could mean.
And sometimes kids will takeresponsibility for something
that really has nothing to dowith them, like a divorce.
(08:11):
Did you have any residualfeelings after your mother left?
SPEAKER_00 (08:16):
Oh, 100%.
I'm still going through it as aman.
I didn't understand what wasgoing on, and I didn't
understand why it was that Ineeded to stay with dad anymore.
So the context of this is I havethree of us in the family.
I've got two older sisters.
And my mom made the decision toleave my dad.
(08:36):
And she left, but she wanted tokeep me and wanted to take me.
And my dad was saying, no, ifshe's leaving this marriage and
this household, then everyonestays.
And I didn't understand that asa kid, but I was angry.
I was angry at my father.
And the story is my mom ran offwith another man.
And at that time, if I could goback and change things, and as a
(09:00):
10-year-old, I didn't know whatwas going on.
I didn't know that mom decidedto do this.
I was just like, why can't I gowith mom?
And that would have broke mydad's heart as well.
Seeing his only boy not takinghis side in that matter.
But I often look back and tellmyself, if I could go back, I'd
(09:23):
make sure that dad knew that Iunderstood, or if I could go
back, I'd want to hold his handand say, no, she's left the both
of us.
We can move on together.
Because it left a real large gapbetween my dad and I, which I'm
still trying to fix, which I'mstill trying to process.
So yeah, there's a lot ofresidue that comes with that,
(09:47):
that I think rubs off on mymusic.
SPEAKER_02 (09:50):
It does, because musicians express those emotions
through their music and theirlyrics that oftentimes you might
feel more comfortable singingabout it versus even talking
about it with a therapist orsomething.
And sharing that with the worldreally helps so many people.
What I think is interesting isthat you're talking about rage
(10:14):
against your father, but I sensethis closeness that you have
with your mother, right?
But it doesn't sound like youhave the rage against your
mother at all, even though sheleft.
SPEAKER_00 (10:26):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's really weird like thatbecause I've had fans actually
question that and say, you know,she left.
Why do you not feel anyanimosity?
towards her.
And I guess it's because overthe years, so my dad was in the
Navy and not to stereotypepeople in the Navy at all, but
(10:47):
he experienced a few things andit closed him off emotionally.
And growing up in his household,there was no affirmation, no,
nothing like, I'm proud of you.
You've done a good job.
When you're a teenager, whenyou're growing up, it's just
like that's all you crave for.
You want to know that you can bevalidated by your parents.
And I didn't have that.
(11:08):
But my mom, even though sheleft, was so constant through
the years on a message, on aphone call.
And it tells you that at thatage, that was all I was wanting.
I just needed someone to tell methat everything was going to be
okay.
So for the next almost 15 yearsof my life living with dad, it
never came.
But now that I'm a man, I'mgoing through this whole healing
(11:29):
and I'm in recovery, I'm inrehab, my dad and I, I'm quite
closer to him now, which is thetables have turned, which is
crazy, which is a crazy, it'salmost like we've come full
circle.
SPEAKER_02 (11:43):
Well, what was the turning point with your father?
SPEAKER_00 (11:45):
Well, I checked myself into rehab six months
ago.
And I experienced a lot of lossin life.
And I was talking to my sisters,and my sisters' questions were
always like, well, when are yougoing to patch things up with
Dad?
And I used to get so defensiveover that.
And I always asked them, well,when is he going to patch things
up with me?
(12:08):
But it's funny how sometimespain can humble us.
It's funny how pain can humbleus enough to ask for help.
And the one person...
that I asked for help from whenI checked myself into rehab was
my father.
And something clicked.
I think something clicked in himwhere it was just like, well, if
(12:29):
I don't offer help or if wedon't get close now, we never
will get close.
And it's quite touching now thatwe're having dinners together
and we're going fishingtogether.
It's like I feel like he'sgained his son back and I found
my father again, even in themidst of a lot of heartache and
loss in the last six months.
(12:49):
It's kind of bittersweet, but itwould definitely feel like we've
come full circle.
SPEAKER_02 (12:53):
I'm so glad to hear that.
Well, you know, you touched onrehab and you touched on your
depression and suicidalideation, which is really the
depths of it.
With the addiction, where didthe addiction start and what was
it that you were addicted to?
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (13:13):
After six months of rehab, I'm still in rehab.
I'm doing an outpatient, so it'sjust via Zoom.
But the addiction I realizedstarted with childhood trauma
when mom left.
That's a great segue questionbecause, I mean, we touched on
how mom left.
But through those years, Ilearned how to use people and
(13:33):
substances to escape thesefeelings of loneliness, to
escape these feelings ofpurposelessness.
And that's how it grew.
That's how addiction grew in mylife.
But yeah, like what I've learnedabout addiction, my personal
journey with addiction andrecovery is that it's an illness
of escape.
(13:55):
And that's a powerfully loadedstatement because there's two
statements in one is thataddiction, one, is an illness
and it needs to be treatedprofessionally.
And in doing so, it could bemanaged.
And then two is that it'sescapism at its root.
You're not just running tousing, but you're running from
(14:17):
something.
So I've learned that over thelast six months that I've been
running from trauma almost mywhole life, which is crazy.
SPEAKER_02 (14:28):
Well, first of all, you are very brave to talk about
this as you're going throughyour process and the rehab
because it's still really freshto you.
SPEAKER_00 (14:38):
100%, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (14:40):
Yeah, but at the same time, you could really–
Thank you so much.
(15:07):
When he found one person thatwas as bad of an addict that he
was and they were able to getout, he said, you know what?
That gave me hope.
They gave me hope that there isa door to get out.
And what was yours?
What was your door?
SPEAKER_00 (15:26):
What was my door?
I think for me, the door to getout is...
Wanting to see the best versionof me.
And again, that goes back topurpose.
(15:49):
Believing that I'm here for areason, that I'm not just dust
blowing in the wind, that mylife isn't just coming and
going, that I can leave a mark.
Whilst I'm here.
And I'm also in a 12-stepprogram.
And one of the things I'mlearning in a 12-step program is
that the fullness of recovery isexperienced in servitude.
(16:10):
That you understand that byserving others, by putting
others before yourself, you needto give your life away.
Make another person's lifebetter.
Make something of your recoveryby helping others.
And that goes back to thispurpose that I was talking
about.
Everything for me points tothere is a reason why this has
(16:32):
happened.
There is a reason why you'vegone down this route.
So the door for me is wanting tosee the best version of myself
and seeing to it that I live mylife's purpose.
SPEAKER_02 (16:45):
Usually there's a situation or an event or even a
thought that makes you say, youknow what?
I've got to go to a rehab now.
Or maybe it was against yourwill.
What was the whole situationthat finally got you into
therapy?
SPEAKER_00 (17:00):
Yeah, this is a big one.
Marriage breakdown.
My own.
Yeah, it fell apart.
And I'm still going through it.
That's something that I'm stilltrying to process, trying to
process separation and trying toprocess recovery is huge.
It's a huge thing for me.
And some days are better thanothers, but...
(17:21):
To wake up in the morning andnot have the love of your life
there anymore was tough.
And it got to a point where itwas just like, yeah, it got to a
point where I needed to dosomething and real quick.
SPEAKER_02 (17:38):
Was the addiction part of that whole breakdown of
your relationship?
SPEAKER_00 (17:42):
100%.
SPEAKER_02 (17:44):
100%.
SPEAKER_00 (17:45):
Okay.
I do understand that there's alot of things that come to play,
and I understand that you don'tblame the addiction.
But I do believe that whilstaddiction gives us a reason for
acting out, it doesn't give youexcuses.
So I do know that there's a lotof other factors that come to
play, but I can hand on my heartsay that there are a lot of
(18:06):
things that I did in activeaddiction that caused the
breakdown of my marriage.
SPEAKER_02 (18:11):
Yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (18:41):
Definitely.
SPEAKER_02 (18:43):
And you said something about the 12-step
program and about addiction, andthat is running away from the
actual issues and either numbingyour emotions or just being
distracted with something else.
Yeah.
(19:03):
And actually facing thosedemons, facing those emotions,
because they're hard to dealwith and they're painful.
And sometimes it's hard toaccept all that hurt and pain.
How did you get to that point tobe able to talk about that?
SPEAKER_00 (19:20):
I've been to enough 12-step meetings now.
And I was doing almost six daysof therapy and rehab a week.
You know, in the first threemonths, it was full on.
It was just like to have runaway from the feelings of
(19:40):
childhood trauma, abandonment,depression, anxiety, to have
shut that out for the last, youknow, 15 years.
And then now to be like, allright, I'm going to feel all of
you.
I'm going to feel all of this.
I'll tell you, I was a mess.
You know, I was a mess.
But I love what my therapistsays.
She says, You can't heal whatyou don't feel.
(20:04):
What did she say?
She said, you were walkingaround bleeding out and you
didn't even know it.
You're walking around bleedingout for the last 15 years and
you didn't even know it becauseyou ignored everything that your
soul was feeling and ran toother things.
And she's like, now we can heal.
And I love that.
So it took a lot.
(20:26):
There were times when it wasjust like some weeks it's like,
I'd rather not want to go.
I don't want to go.
And I used to have friends.
I used to have friends justdrive me there like, nah, you're
going.
And I was like, oh, man.
But every time I went, it's justlike you come in feeling like
real heavy and just like acomplete loser.
(20:46):
You walk out like chest up, youknow, chin up.
It was just like, yeah, wedefinitely can heal and we
definitely do recover.
So yeah.
I'm still very much, like Iacknowledge, I'm still very much
in the early stages.
I just got to 180 days lastweek, which is huge for me.
And, you know, we're just takingit one day at a time, but here I
am feeling to heal.
SPEAKER_02 (21:09):
Well, it's almost like having to go through the
forest, right?
To get to seeing the light atthe end of the tunnel.
And, you know, that, takes a lotof work and a lot of bravery.
So I really commend you forthat.
I hope you could feel thatbecause it does take a lot of
work and breaking down walls,you know, that you've put up for
(21:30):
so many years, just as a meansof protection.
But it's funny how if we don'tgive respect to those emotions,
that they show up in differentways that are unhealthy.
And once you, bring it to thelight and say, you know, I see
you and I'm going to talk withyou today or however it comes
(21:53):
out, you do feel like alightened load, you know, like
you let go and you've releasedit.
So I'm really glad that thatprocess is working for you and
you have a great therapistbecause, you know, that's the
other thing is to find the rightperson to really go through that
whole process you know, processwith you and you feel
(22:15):
comfortable with theirpersonality and you feel like,
you know, maybe they understandyou better than someone else.
SPEAKER_00 (22:22):
Yeah.
No, this particular therapist,like I'm, it's, it's a good
match.
She really calls me out on stufflike that.
She needs to call me out.
But, you know, like I think alot of therapy for me is, is
having to accept that every daythat, yeah, I'm here because I
need help.
I'm here because it's becomeunmanageable.
(22:42):
I'm here because, I need someoneto give me the right tools to
manage this thing.
So because I've remainedteachable, I think I've gotten
the most out of
SPEAKER_02 (22:55):
it.
On top of your childhood and theturbulence there, you said that
you also grew up in a kind of arough neighborhood in Sydney,
Australia.
How did that affect your life asyou were growing up through your
teens into young adulthood?
SPEAKER_00 (23:14):
Yeah, it's funny, hey, because when you think of
Sydney, Australia, you think,how tough can that neighbourhood
be?
Like beaches, kangaroos.
It was really tough, actually.
It was really tough because atthat time when mum left, we
couldn't afford the houseanymore.
So we moved to a really run-downneighbourhood.
(23:36):
And at that time...
It was the number one place forcrime and just for a lot of bad
things to happen.
And it was tough growing up.
I remember being in high school.
There were a lot of gangs inthat area.
And I remember being in highschool and we were forced to
(23:58):
carry weapons in our uniform.
And get this, it was a privateschool.
It was a private school at thetime, but we had this uniform,
we had jackets, and we used tohide little weapons, like
shanks, under our...
Because it got really tough.
You couldn't go home withoutbeing mugged.
You couldn't go home withoutsomeone stealing something off
(24:20):
you.
And so it got that tough.
Plus, at that time, I was stilltrying to process mum leaving.
So I grew up an angry, angrykid, but And underneath all that
anger was a kid that was justhurting.
And I often tell the story tofans, that message, and the
(24:43):
message, they're like, why is itthat you sing like that?
Or how is it that your voice islike that?
And I tell them the story of howI grew up in a really rough
neighborhood where all myfriends were influenced by
hip-hop music.
And I really got into hip-hopand gangster rap because we were
all angry.
But at that time, all I waslistening to was rap.
the music that mum loved, I wasangry in a different way.
(25:06):
I was listening to WhitneyHouston and Joni Mitchell on my
Discman MP3 players because Iwas hurting because mum left.
So that neighbourhood and thatarea that I grew up in actually
really formed a lot of my music.
SPEAKER_02 (25:21):
I saw the beautiful tattoos that you have on your
arm, but I could see where in atough neighbourhood that could
make you look tougher.
You know?
SPEAKER_00 (25:31):
Yeah.
My first tattoo was 13, and Idid that because I was angry at
Dad.
And he didn't find out aboutthat tattoo until I was 21.
I was walking around the house,like, with a singlet on.
And at that time, I'd become sogood at hiding that tattoo that
I didn't even notice it wasthere.
And he was like, what's that?
And I was like, oh, it's atattoo.
And then he got angry.
(25:52):
He's like, when did you getthat?
I was like, oh, almost eightyears ago.
SPEAKER_02 (25:57):
What was the tattoo?
SPEAKER_00 (25:59):
Oh, God.
It's just a cross on my back.
SPEAKER_02 (26:04):
Well, you know, I saw on your YouTube and I
thought it was really great tosee you singing with your mom
and also the encouragement andthe happiness of her seeing you
finally getting to where you'vewanted to go.
And, you know, the fact that youshare that love of music and
(26:25):
something that you feel so muchdeep inside is connected through
your mom.
And she was a professional DJ,which I think is really a cool
thing for a Filipino mom to dothe DJ thing.
Because it's not reallyexpected.
I mean, I'm half Japanese andhalf Chinese.
(26:48):
And I know from my experience,you know, things like music or
entertainment is usually notencouraged in In the Asian
culture.
Oh,
SPEAKER_00 (27:00):
like I thought it was really cool.
But I was asking her for photos.
But there was this one photowhere she was carrying me on her
lap and she was actually puttingthe label on her mixtape.
And I was just like, this iscool.
This is going to be an albumcover one day.
But that's how she met myfather.
(27:22):
My father...
There was like a disco in townand she was the DJ at the disco.
SPEAKER_02 (27:27):
Really?
Yeah.
Oh, that's sweet.
Well, you know, one thing yousaid about your songwriting, you
wrote that I write to stop thebleeding, sometimes to quiet the
voices.
Yeah.
And I was wondering what kind ofvoices were in your head that
you wanted to silence?
SPEAKER_00 (27:47):
Insecurity.
Doubt.
A lot of doubt.
Because my love for music is soclosely tied to mum, I think I
also feel the same way aboutmusic.
Wow, this is really big for meto say, but I feel like music's
going to leave one day.
(28:07):
Because it's so closely tied tomum, that there's a part of me
that feels like the moment isfleeting, that the moment is
passing, that it's somethingthat I can't quite grasp.
And in many ways, I'm still sortof grappling with that, because
I feel like that's...
That brings about the doubt.
Oh, what if I never make it?
Oh, what if I can't live offthis?
Or what if I can't do this?
And so I wanted to silence thosevoices that, you know, I can
(28:31):
just write because I love it.
I don't need to prove a point toanyone.
I just write and sing because Ilove it.
So, you know, when I say I'mquieting the voices, it's a lot
of voices that are of insecurityand self-doubt.
SPEAKER_02 (28:43):
Yeah, that's definitely a very honest
emotion, especially when you'reso motivated.
to be this wonderfulsinger-songwriter.
Well, now that you're on thisbetter, healthier path, you're
sort of a work in progress, andyou see this great light at the
end of the tunnel.
How do you want to spend thenext chapter of your life?
SPEAKER_00 (29:06):
Well, without planning too far ahead, I've
actually booked myself a littleholiday to celebrate 180 days
clean, and I'm just going bymyself.
My friends are like, that'sweird i was like is it though
like it's it's i'm justcelebrating me um it's a little
area in australia calledtasmania and i've literally just
(29:29):
booked a four-wheel drive andi'm doing a five-day road trip
and it's just me soul searchingand it's just me just like a
celebrating and it's I guessit's my way of saying, hey, you
can draw validation from within.
You don't need to run.
You can live your best lifewithout using.
And so when you think about thenext chapter of my life, that's
(29:49):
the person I want to be.
I want to be able to experiencelife in its full through the
lens of recovery.
SPEAKER_02 (29:56):
Well, you know, that's a really good example,
sort of giving yourself creditfor the work that you've done.
And I think oftentimes we're sobusy with our lives that we– We
don't seem to have a problempointing out flaws or mistakes
that we've done or being hard onourselves.
(30:16):
People tend to do that moreoften than saying, you know
what?
I want to celebrate the factthat I'm 180 days sober.
I mean, that is a wonderfulthing.
And I hope you continue to dothat because that is like
something that you do to keepyourself happy and content and
feeling good about yourself.
(30:36):
So I'm glad that you're doingthat and taking the time off too
because, you know, sometimesoverworking can be an issue,
especially as a musician becauseyou love it so much that
sometimes you don't want tostray away from it.
You keep going and going andthat, you know, sometimes can
lead to burnout.
I
SPEAKER_00 (30:56):
agree.
Yeah, I agree.
I was telling my manager, I wasjust like, I'm actually looking
forward to not hearing from youguys in a while.
UNKNOWN (31:04):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (31:05):
In the most loving way, obviously.
I agree, there's power incelebrating.
Full stop.
Celebrate all the victories, nomatter how big, no matter how
small.
Celebrate all of them.
And you are exactly right whenyou say it's so easy to spot out
all the flaws.
And my brain is like that.
I have the sort of brain where Ican get 100 compliments about my
(31:28):
music, and if there's onenegative comment, my brain's
like...
Boom, that's the negativecomment.
That's all we're thinking abouttoday.
So it's quite huge actually toflip that and say, now I'm going
to focus on all the good and I'mgoing to celebrate on all the
good.
SPEAKER_02 (31:43):
We focus a lot on solutions on the podcast because
I feel like it's one thing toshare your story, but it's also
really important to know whatworked for you.
You talked about therapy.
We'd like to say about whatyou've learned in therapy or
maybe even what you've learnedabout yourself.
SPEAKER_00 (32:00):
Yeah, one of the biggest takeaways is that
routine is everything.
There's a saying in my 12-stepmeeting, and the saying is, show
me your routine and I'll showyou your recovery.
It's huge.
So we're big on routine.
And for me, meditation is alarge part of my routine.
(32:20):
I'm big on that, especially as arecovering addict.
We talked about escapism, butmeditation puts you in the now.
makes yourself aware, makes youaware of your thoughts, grounds
you.
And for me, it's been sohealing.
I use an app as a self-guidedmeditation, and it's really done
wonders for me because it'sallowed me to feel.
(32:44):
So that's huge.
And then a good exercise routineis vital, I think.
SPEAKER_02 (32:51):
Well, you know, that's important to bring up
because musicians and creativepeople, I'm going to speak for
myself.
I mean, I grew up in a creativehousehold and we did not have a
lot of routine and establishingthese routines.
Once you get down good routinesthat are healthy for you, it
(33:11):
starts to become just part ofyour life and you don't have to
think about it as much.
SPEAKER_04 (33:17):
Yes.
SPEAKER_02 (33:19):
And you talked about an app.
Now, I want to know what the appis because on
checkyourheadpodcast.com, wehave organizations, apps,
clinics, all free andaffordable.
So when people do get intotrouble and they want to find a
solution, they can go on thewebsite and just try different
(33:40):
things.
So what is this great app thatyou are using?
SPEAKER_00 (33:43):
Yeah, I use an app called Headspace.
So I'm on that like every day.
I'm on that every morning andevery evening, and it's just
part of the routine.
They have courses on that thatyou can do.
You can do single meditations orcourses that last for 30 days or
what have you.
But I'm on one course in theevening that is a five-minute
(34:03):
gratitude meditation, practicinggratitude before I sleep, which
has really, really helped.
And then I have another coursethat I do in the morning, but
it's worked wonders, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (34:15):
Really?
Okay.
UNKNOWN (34:16):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (34:16):
Is there anything else that you would like to say
about mental health or aboutyour music?
SPEAKER_00 (34:22):
Yeah, that we do recover.
And there's not, how do I phrasethis?
Don't look for the light at theend of the tunnel.
You can find the light within.
Yeah.
UNKNOWN (34:35):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (34:37):
Next up, we have a leader on how to make friends
and lasting connections, evenduring this pandemic.
Our featured mental healthexpert is Kat Moore, USC's
Director of Belonging, who willshow us how to feel like we
belong wherever we go.
As someone who admits to havefelt lonely the first 24 years
of her life, Kat shares how ashy, introverted person can live
(34:58):
a more friendly and social life.
Kat also explains the acronymCLICK, and the five components
to make real, authenticrelationships with others.
SPEAKER_01 (35:09):
Prior to COVID, it was over half of the population
was experiencing loneliness.
And for the first time, theyounger generation was more
lonely than any other.
So this was even before COVID, acrisis.
So I like to tell people thatthere's no such thing as
loneliness with a capital L.
That everyone is experiencingwhat we have is loneliness.
(35:33):
millions of lonelinesses with alowercase l, meaning every
single person experiencingloneliness is experiencing it
for a host of reasons.
And so it can be anything.
It can be that you don't haveaccess to a lot of different
people.
Maybe you live in a rural areawhere there's just not a lot of
(35:56):
humans to choose from.
You could have internalized alot of negative self-esteem
messages from people around you.
that can make it difficult foryou to think that you have
anything to offer in afriendship or a relationship.
And so you shut down.
There's a ton of differentreasons.
It could be that you were nevertaught and modeled basic social
(36:16):
skills.
So there's a lot of differentreasons people are experiencing
loneliness, but we still knowthat we're all wired to connect
and that meaningful connectionis the number one predictor of
our wellbeing across thelifespan.
So how do we Think about thereally tiny details of each of
our lives to see where we canstart making meaningful
(36:37):
connections where we are.
And there's another conceptcalled weak ties.
And these are relationships thataren't necessarily like your
best friend or your soulmate,but they're just people that you
can say hi to and be friendlywith.
Those weak tie relationshipsthat you can form in one day in
a new city or while travelingare those still register as
(36:59):
positive and meaningful and havean impact on you.
So it's not like either talkwith your best friend or talk
with no one.
There's a huge variety ofrelationships that are possible
and that enrich both people'slives.
SPEAKER_02 (37:14):
You know, a lot of musicians, no matter how much
they run around on stage andbreak guitars and all those
crazy stuff, A lot of them arevery introverted.
What are some of the things thata shy, introverted person can do
to feel more comfortablesocializing?
SPEAKER_01 (37:30):
Preaching to the choir, I also am an introvert
and very shy.
The first thing I would say isto accept that that's part of
what you're experiencing and notget down on yourself.
by comparing yourself to someoneelse who seems like they're so
at ease and so extroverted orwhatever it is, to just befriend
(37:53):
that about yourself and knowthat there's nothing wrong with
you.
That's a way that you're wired.
And to be kind with yourself, toask, well, what would make me
feel more comfortable?
What kind of situations am Imore comfortable in?
So for example, a lot ofintroverts are more comfortable
in small group settings.
(38:14):
And so Maybe don't go to thegigantic, loud, overwhelming
party.
Go to the dinner party.
You know, so there can be waysthat you can anticipate which
scenarios are better suited tothe kind of conversations or
activities that you'recomfortable with.
Often, too, some people are verycomfortable connecting by
(38:34):
talking.
Let's sit down and talk aboutour life.
How are you doing?
How are you feeling?
That's overwhelming to otherpeople.
So think Sometimes people preferto get to know a group or a
person by doing things together.
And sometimes in a small groupwhere there's less pressure,
one-on-one.
So you can think about what arethe things that help me feel
(38:57):
comfortable?
Do I like hiking?
Do I like whatever it is?
So that you can just putyourself in situations where
you're most comfortable.
People get a lot of anxietyabout not being interesting,
running out of questions.
these sorts of things happensall the time.
And the number one thing, youknow, give yourself some time to
prepare yourself before you gointo any situation.
(39:20):
Give yourself a little pep talkand tell yourself that you have
value to offer the people thatyou're about to interact with.
Not because you're smart, notbecause you're talented, but
because you care about them.
And once you think of yourselfas a gift to the other people,
that you could be there tolisten to someone who
desperately needs to be listenedto that day.
(39:42):
It kind of shifts the dynamicfrom it being about someone
being able to reject you, whichis the basic fear going on here,
right?
That we're going to be rejected.
If you can shift it to beinglike, no, I'm going to listen to
these people and discover whothese people are, it
automatically changes thedynamic.
And people are desperate to belistened to.
(40:04):
So if you can go into situationsrather than thinking about what
do I have to do or not do or sayor not say and just say, I'm
going to show up and listen topeople.
That will pave the way.
Yeah,
SPEAKER_02 (40:17):
I think that is really key because I know when I
started out as a journalist, Ithought, okay, I have the easy
part.
I get to develop the questions.
The other person has to talk.
And it's the same with aconversation, right?
It's like if you focus yourquestions on the other person
they say that person will goaway more than likely feeling
(40:39):
like they had a wonderfulconversation with you because
there's a percent yeah there isa great feeling about okay wow
this person is interested in meand they want to get to know who
i am you also have somethingcalled the click class
SPEAKER_01 (40:54):
can you tell me what that stands for So CLIC is an
acronym that stands for the fivedimensions of making meaningful
relationships.
So you got to have each one ofthese in place if you're trying
to forge meaningfulrelationships in your life.
So connecting as we are,authentically and in our real
(41:16):
lives, listening first,investigating with curiosity,
communicating kindness, andkeeping in touch.
So those are the elements thatgo into creating deep and
meaningful relationships,whether they're friendships or
with neighbors or coworkers.
And so I created five-weekworkshops where people
(41:39):
experiencing loneliness anddisconnection.
Now on Zoom, it had been inperson.
So I get 18-year-olds to55-year-olds, and we're
essentially sitting in a circleon Zoom.
And we're sharing our socialstories.
What was friendship like for yougrowing up?
What are your obstacles?
What are your hopes?
What are you looking for in afriend?
(42:00):
What's really hard about this?
What do you want to do next?
And we're practicing all kindsof skills like making eye
contact, like asking open-endedquestions and solving problems
together.
So it's designed to reallyempower people wherever they're
at on their social journey, butgiving them an experience
(42:20):
immediately that of connectionand belonging so that they don't
feel like they have to figure itall out on their own.
I'm partnering with differentorganizations to adapt Click so
that their employees can have anopportunity to find meaningful
connection, especially whenpeople are working remotely.
SPEAKER_02 (42:39):
Yeah, that's really important.
You know, to feel welcome and asense of belonging where you
work, which is such a big partof your life.
I've realized that the fear ofbeing alone is one of the most
common ones.
And it can affect the decisionsin our life, such as staying in
an abusive relationship or onethat's not right for us.
(43:00):
I'm worried that some of thethings that we have to watch out
for, you know, pitfalls, so thatour loneliness doesn't create
bad decisions in our life.
SPEAKER_01 (43:11):
The need to feel like you belong somewhere and to
someone.
is the deepest need that wehave.
And so it makes sense that ifthat's not in place, if we're
not assured of where we are andwho we're tethered to, it can
create absolutely cripplingfear.
(43:34):
And so that can drive us to stayin relationships or situations
that we know is not healthy, butit still feels like, well, it's
better than being alone becauseit can be traumatic.
to feel existentially alone inthe world and so one of the
things that i encourage peopleto do is to think really kind of
(43:56):
zoom out from whatever therelationship you're in and know
that we need to have multiplekinds of relationships that
we're in and they don't all haveto be super best friend intense
lifelong relationships but ifyou can even have one other
person that you can be investingin.
(44:18):
A friend, someone, a barista atthe coffee shop, your grandma, a
neighbor.
It really doesn't matter as longas the relationship is basically
intact and healthy.
Even having one otherrelationship can give you enough
wiggle room to not feel likeyou're trapped, like all of your
eggs are in one basket.
(44:38):
Because that can just be analmost impossible situation to
find yourself in.
So I just really encouragepeople to think broadly and
think longer term so that youdon't get stuck in a situation
and it turn into a crisis.
So kind of the morerelationships we can have, it
(44:58):
can provide like a nest for usthat if a major relationship
needs to be pulled out becauseit's toxic, we don't feel like
we're going to free fall.
There's still something to catchus.
And that was my experiencebefore.
I was able to finally get out ofthe abusive situation I was in
because I had been building thiscoffee shop network.
(45:22):
Now, none of them were like bestfriend level relationships, but
it was enough.
They were friendly.
They were consistent.
They were available.
And so that was enough to catchme so that I could get out of
something toxic.
Now, if I wouldn't have had thatkind of social safety net, I
don't know what would havehappened.
(45:42):
So to be creating at least one,of course, I'd recommend
something like three to fouranchor people that you could be
investing in.
SPEAKER_02 (45:52):
Yeah, I could see where it's just important to
have that support of a goodcircle of family and friends
that you could rely on anddepend on.
And vice versa, right?
I mean, it's definitely always atwo-way relationship when you
have somebody really importantin your life.
Years ago, I heard somethingcalled warm lines.
(46:12):
And we all hear about crisislines when you're really having
something extreme happening inyour life, you need to talk
about it.
But a warm line is like, youknow, I just want to talk with
somebody.
I just want to interact over thephone or by text or something.
It's not a crisis, but it can bedue to loneliness.
(46:33):
I mean, what can you do in thosecases when you're physically
SPEAKER_01 (46:36):
separated from people?
Some people choose into isolatedsituations and some people have
them thrust upon us.
And I think all of us haveexperienced some version of
isolation that was unwantedduring COVID.
And it can create empathy for usfor people who are incarcerated,
people who are in retirementhomes who can't have access to
(46:59):
as many people.
So one of the things to thinkabout, you have to develop the
skills to of focusing yourmental energy, focusing your
thought life.
And there's a lot that can bedone with mindfulness practices,
for example, to start to payattention to your breath and
start to pay attention to yourthoughts and your emotions and
(47:22):
to start becoming aware of whatyou're experiencing so that you
can start focusing your thoughtlife in certain directions.
One of the most amazing examplesof this is The author, Viktor
Frankl, who was in aconcentration camp, and he wrote
a whole book called Man's Searchfor Meaning.
And talking about the power thatwe still have that no one can
(47:45):
take away from us, which is ourpower to choose what we're going
to think about.
And so he would hold forth inhis mind visions of what he
wanted to do and become with hislife after he got out.
And that's one of the thingsthat gave him motivation to keep
living and to keep thrivingdespite really the most horrific
(48:05):
conditions that we can imagine.
So I think starting with yourbreath, starting with if you
have a way to journal, a way tostill create, right?
You can compose in your mind themelodies.
there's certain things thatcan't be taken away from you and
being able to focus on those inthose periods can be really
(48:25):
life-saving.
SPEAKER_02 (48:26):
It almost sounds like, I mean, not only these
creative projects that you couldhave in your head and talking to
yourself in your head, it'salmost like having to build a
better relationship withyourself because that's pretty
much what you have.
And I've heard that monks andpeople that are in these
(48:47):
situations, that what theythought about and what they did
in solitary confinement reallyhelped
SPEAKER_01 (48:55):
save them.
Solitude and silence are twospiritual practices or
disciplines that almost everyworld religion or culture has
had some familiarity with wherethose are chosen into.
The experience of loneliness iswhen you feel like your social
(49:16):
needs aren't being met.
But in solitude, that'ssomething we can choose into as
a practice that actually helpsus collect ourselves, collect
our thoughts, collect what ourvalues are, collect our
experiences so that we can bemore integrated as a person and
(49:37):
understand our motives and ourdreams.
And it can be a very healthything.
to have that space.
And then out of that space,we're more equipped to go into
community and go intorelationships more integrated.
So if there's ways that we canunderstand even COVID as a very
extended period of solitude,that can give us some sense of
(50:02):
empowerment.
Like, oh, I might never get thiskind of opportunity again in my
lifetime to have this muchsolitude.
How can I use it to my benefit?
And I've had a lot of studentschoose to take it that way and
have seen incredible personalgrowth, self-discovery come out
of this period, even though,yes, they still miss their
(50:24):
friends.
Yes, they want to still go andhang out and go to concerts and
all the things, but we can leaninto a more ancient framework of
solitude and being incrediblyhelpful for our own relationship
with ourself, befriendingourself, and knowing that that's
also going to equip us to be abetter friend in our
relationships as well.
SPEAKER_02 (50:46):
A big thank you to our musical guest, Kat Carter,
and our mental health expert,Kat Moore.
For more information on CapCarter, visit CapCarter.com and
follow Cap on his socials, atCap Carter and at CapXCarter,
and stay tuned for a clip of CapCarter's single, Relapse, at the
end of our episode.
(51:07):
For more information on CatMoore, visit Cat-Moore.com and
follow Cat on Facebook, at CatMoore Belonging, and Instagram,
at Cat underscore Mooreunderscore.
Visit CheckYourHeadPodcast.comto find more mental health
solutions and follow us on oursocials at CheckYourHeadPodcast.
(51:29):
So until next time, be brave,ask for help, and be persistent
in finding the mental healththat you
SPEAKER_03 (51:34):
need.
Check
SPEAKER_02 (52:08):
Your Head Podcast is kindly supported and partnered
with Sweet Relief MusiciansFund, DBSA San Gabriel Valley,
Earshot Media, and Lemon TreeStudios in Los Angeles.
Visit checkyourheadpodcast.comwhere we have over 100 solutions
for mental health.
Be our friends on social mediaat Check Your Head Podcast.
(52:28):
Watch us on YouTube and supportus with a kind donation on
checkyourheadpodcast.com.
Check Your Head Podcast issponsored by a 501c3 nonprofit
with all donations being taxdeductible.
Thank you for your support andthank you for listening.
Welcome to the Check Your Head podcast, the podcast
where notable musicians andexperts share their stories and
solutions for mental health andwellness.
I'm your host, Mari Fong, amusic journalist and life coach
for musicians, and we are inSeptember, a month that
represents a lot of what theCheck Your Head podcast is
(00:22):
about.
September is National SuicidePrevention Month, but it's also
National Recovery Month,National Self-Care Awareness
Month, and NationalSelf-Improvement Month, which
leads us to our featured musicalguest, who seems to touch on all
those things.
Today's guest is a risingsinger-songwriter, born in the
Philippines but grew up in atough, crime-filled neighborhood
(00:44):
in Sydney, Australia, with apainful childhood caused by an
ugly divorce between hisparents.
Pouring anger and sadness intohis music, Cap Carter wrote his
single Relapse as he struggledwith addiction and depression, a
song that he wrote to end hislife, but actually ended up
saving his life.
Cap Carter will share hissolutions for recovery, and
(01:05):
we'll play a clip of Relapse atthe end of our episode.
Next, we have a mental healthexpert who speaks on the topic
of loneliness.
Loneliness that we could feelduring dark times.
loneliness that could happen ontour, and loneliness experienced
during this pandemic.
Today's expert is Kat Moore, whobuilt a career on teaching
(01:26):
others how to make lastingfriendships and is USC's first
Director of Belonging.
Kat guides us on how to makethese lasting connections, along
with the five things we can alldo to create meaningful
relationships.
But first, let's hearsinger-songwriter Cap Carter
share his story.
You were born in thePhilippines, but you grew up in
(01:48):
Sydney, Australia, and youdropped your single, Relapse.
With Relapse, you said you wrotethat during one of the darkest
periods of your life, and yousaid the song was almost like an
exit song.
Now, what did you mean by that,an exit song?
SPEAKER_00 (02:03):
I meant that in the way of that I couldn't see a way
out, struggling with depressionand I'd just come off a band, a
pretty bad band breakup.
And I had, now looking back,delusions of grandeur with the
band and thinking that, hey, youknow, we could make it.
(02:25):
And then the band broke up.
My life fell apart.
I took it as the universe's wayof saying, you're done.
You're done with music.
You know, something that I'vebeen chasing for the last 15
years.
And I took it to heart.
I took it really bad.
Went to a dark space.
So I wrote this song, Relapse,really as a way of saying, this
is it.
You know?
struggling with the ideation ofsuicide at the time.
(02:46):
And it was supposed to be mylast song.
SPEAKER_02 (02:50):
Really?
Yeah.
So that was like almost agoodbye note or something?
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (02:57):
It's quite heavy.
It's heavy.
It's real heavy.
SPEAKER_02 (03:01):
What was it that kept you from doing that?
SPEAKER_00 (03:05):
Looking back at the time, I had a friend reach out,
a friend who did not know what Iwas going through.
I didn't know how to tell peoplewhat was really going on inside.
I just couldn't bring myself todo that.
But this friend reached out, noteven to check up on me.
He was just like, do you want torecord some music?
I got some free studio time.
(03:27):
And I was just like, you knowwhat?
Let's do it.
I got this one song.
Little did he know what I wasreally meaning was I got this
one last song.
And so we recorded the song andthen we posted it up three years
ago and started to resonate withpeople.
And we started to get messages.
I started to get messages ofpeople who sang that the song
helped.
And it was like 30,000, 40,000views overnight, which was nice
(03:50):
as an independent artist comingup at that time.
It was nice to know that maybethat there was some sort of
purpose to things happening.
And I think that's what kept mea sense of purpose.
And over time, the arrowsstarted pointing out.
I think when the arrows startpointing out when you're in such
(04:12):
a dark headspace, you can startto see things clearer.
But when the arrows startpointing out, that's when I saw
a light.
SPEAKER_02 (04:22):
That's an interesting way of putting it.
The arrows started to point out.
It almost sounded like you wereguided.
out or you know that there wassome sort of intuitive messages
that you were getting that saidyou are here for a reason and
your music is it's healing youbut it's healing other people
because they're starting to feeland sense these emotions that
(04:46):
are coming out and oftentimeswhen you're in that place you
feel really alone so what was itthat you feel was sort of
guiding you
SPEAKER_00 (04:57):
I mean, the backstory to this is that my mum
actually taught me to love musicat a young age in the
Philippines and then growing upin Sydney.
But her and dad had this ugly,ugly divorce and it just put a
lot of insecurity in my life.
So music for me is very muchintertwined with mum.
(05:19):
And so when mum left, that waslike, There's already
abandonment there.
But then when music left, I wasjust like, holy crap, what is
there to live for now?
So going back to the question, Ifeel like purpose is huge.
(05:39):
I saw a purpose in helpingpeople.
I saw that the music wasreaching people.
We used to get really, reallyheavy messages.
We still do.
People who were struggling withtheir mental health and also
wanted to exit, wanted to leave.
I heard that the song was like astrong arm that it reached out
(06:03):
to them and hugged them.
It kept me going.
SPEAKER_02 (06:05):
That's amazing.
Now, can you remember some ofthe messages that you got from
listeners?
What were they saying?
SPEAKER_00 (06:15):
Yeah.
to my, it's both a strength anda weakness, I think for me, but
I'm a big empath.
So I feel it strongly whensomeone slides into those DMs
and says like, dude, I wanted totake my life.
And then I heard your song andit gave me hope, or I found a
light along the way.
I listened to all your tracks,but it is one message actually
(06:36):
that has stood out.
And this person was saying howthey were struggling at the time
with ideation of suicide andaddiction and, And me not being
a mental health professional,all I did was say, dude, so much
to live for.
Go and get professional help.
This person came back aboutthree months later and didn't
(06:57):
reply to my message at all.
That initial message, he cameback three months later and he
said, I just wanted to let youknow I took your advice.
And I'm on my last day at myrehab program.
I'm 180 days clean and I'mliving my best life.
And that to me was just like,wow, man, people really do
listen.
People really do, you know, ifpeople are looking for hope, if
(07:21):
people are looking for some sortof light, you can be that as an
artist and as a musician.
So I screenshotted that and it'sjust a reminder why as a
musician I create.
SPEAKER_02 (07:35):
Wow.
Thank you for writing that song.
You know, it's amazing, though,how words and emotion given to
somebody else can help healthem.
And oftentimes, we're not eventhinking about it when that
happens.
SPEAKER_03 (07:49):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (07:50):
But, you know, you were talking about your parents
when they got divorced, and youwere a mere 10 years old.
And oftentimes, being a child...
You have a different perspectiveon what that could mean.
And sometimes kids will takeresponsibility for something
that really has nothing to dowith them, like a divorce.
(08:11):
Did you have any residualfeelings after your mother left?
SPEAKER_00 (08:16):
Oh, 100%.
I'm still going through it as aman.
I didn't understand what wasgoing on, and I didn't
understand why it was that Ineeded to stay with dad anymore.
So the context of this is I havethree of us in the family.
I've got two older sisters.
And my mom made the decision toleave my dad.
(08:36):
And she left, but she wanted tokeep me and wanted to take me.
And my dad was saying, no, ifshe's leaving this marriage and
this household, then everyonestays.
And I didn't understand that asa kid, but I was angry.
I was angry at my father.
And the story is my mom ran offwith another man.
And at that time, if I could goback and change things, and as a
(09:00):
10-year-old, I didn't know whatwas going on.
I didn't know that mom decidedto do this.
I was just like, why can't I gowith mom?
And that would have broke mydad's heart as well.
Seeing his only boy not takinghis side in that matter.
But I often look back and tellmyself, if I could go back, I'd
(09:23):
make sure that dad knew that Iunderstood, or if I could go
back, I'd want to hold his handand say, no, she's left the both
of us.
We can move on together.
Because it left a real large gapbetween my dad and I, which I'm
still trying to fix, which I'mstill trying to process.
So yeah, there's a lot ofresidue that comes with that,
(09:47):
that I think rubs off on mymusic.
SPEAKER_02 (09:50):
It does, because musicians express those emotions
through their music and theirlyrics that oftentimes you might
feel more comfortable singingabout it versus even talking
about it with a therapist orsomething.
And sharing that with the worldreally helps so many people.
What I think is interesting isthat you're talking about rage
(10:14):
against your father, but I sensethis closeness that you have
with your mother, right?
But it doesn't sound like youhave the rage against your
mother at all, even though sheleft.
SPEAKER_00 (10:26):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's really weird like thatbecause I've had fans actually
question that and say, you know,she left.
Why do you not feel anyanimosity?
towards her.
And I guess it's because overthe years, so my dad was in the
Navy and not to stereotypepeople in the Navy at all, but
(10:47):
he experienced a few things andit closed him off emotionally.
And growing up in his household,there was no affirmation, no,
nothing like, I'm proud of you.
You've done a good job.
When you're a teenager, whenyou're growing up, it's just
like that's all you crave for.
You want to know that you can bevalidated by your parents.
And I didn't have that.
(11:08):
But my mom, even though sheleft, was so constant through
the years on a message, on aphone call.
And it tells you that at thatage, that was all I was wanting.
I just needed someone to tell methat everything was going to be
okay.
So for the next almost 15 yearsof my life living with dad, it
never came.
But now that I'm a man, I'mgoing through this whole healing
(11:29):
and I'm in recovery, I'm inrehab, my dad and I, I'm quite
closer to him now, which is thetables have turned, which is
crazy, which is a crazy, it'salmost like we've come full
circle.
SPEAKER_02 (11:43):
Well, what was the turning point with your father?
SPEAKER_00 (11:45):
Well, I checked myself into rehab six months
ago.
And I experienced a lot of lossin life.
And I was talking to my sisters,and my sisters' questions were
always like, well, when are yougoing to patch things up with
Dad?
And I used to get so defensiveover that.
And I always asked them, well,when is he going to patch things
up with me?
(12:08):
But it's funny how sometimespain can humble us.
It's funny how pain can humbleus enough to ask for help.
And the one person...
that I asked for help from whenI checked myself into rehab was
my father.
And something clicked.
I think something clicked in himwhere it was just like, well, if
(12:29):
I don't offer help or if wedon't get close now, we never
will get close.
And it's quite touching now thatwe're having dinners together
and we're going fishingtogether.
It's like I feel like he'sgained his son back and I found
my father again, even in themidst of a lot of heartache and
loss in the last six months.
(12:49):
It's kind of bittersweet, but itwould definitely feel like we've
come full circle.
SPEAKER_02 (12:53):
I'm so glad to hear that.
Well, you know, you touched onrehab and you touched on your
depression and suicidalideation, which is really the
depths of it.
With the addiction, where didthe addiction start and what was
it that you were addicted to?
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (13:13):
After six months of rehab, I'm still in rehab.
I'm doing an outpatient, so it'sjust via Zoom.
But the addiction I realizedstarted with childhood trauma
when mom left.
That's a great segue questionbecause, I mean, we touched on
how mom left.
But through those years, Ilearned how to use people and
(13:33):
substances to escape thesefeelings of loneliness, to
escape these feelings ofpurposelessness.
And that's how it grew.
That's how addiction grew in mylife.
But yeah, like what I've learnedabout addiction, my personal
journey with addiction andrecovery is that it's an illness
of escape.
(13:55):
And that's a powerfully loadedstatement because there's two
statements in one is thataddiction, one, is an illness
and it needs to be treatedprofessionally.
And in doing so, it could bemanaged.
And then two is that it'sescapism at its root.
You're not just running tousing, but you're running from
(14:17):
something.
So I've learned that over thelast six months that I've been
running from trauma almost mywhole life, which is crazy.
SPEAKER_02 (14:28):
Well, first of all, you are very brave to talk about
this as you're going throughyour process and the rehab
because it's still really freshto you.
SPEAKER_00 (14:38):
100%, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (14:40):
Yeah, but at the same time, you could really–
Thank you so much.
(15:07):
When he found one person thatwas as bad of an addict that he
was and they were able to getout, he said, you know what?
That gave me hope.
They gave me hope that there isa door to get out.
And what was yours?
What was your door?
SPEAKER_00 (15:26):
What was my door?
I think for me, the door to getout is...
Wanting to see the best versionof me.
And again, that goes back topurpose.
(15:49):
Believing that I'm here for areason, that I'm not just dust
blowing in the wind, that mylife isn't just coming and
going, that I can leave a mark.
Whilst I'm here.
And I'm also in a 12-stepprogram.
And one of the things I'mlearning in a 12-step program is
that the fullness of recovery isexperienced in servitude.
(16:10):
That you understand that byserving others, by putting
others before yourself, you needto give your life away.
Make another person's lifebetter.
Make something of your recoveryby helping others.
And that goes back to thispurpose that I was talking
about.
Everything for me points tothere is a reason why this has
(16:32):
happened.
There is a reason why you'vegone down this route.
So the door for me is wanting tosee the best version of myself
and seeing to it that I live mylife's purpose.
SPEAKER_02 (16:45):
Usually there's a situation or an event or even a
thought that makes you say, youknow what?
I've got to go to a rehab now.
Or maybe it was against yourwill.
What was the whole situationthat finally got you into
therapy?
SPEAKER_00 (17:00):
Yeah, this is a big one.
Marriage breakdown.
My own.
Yeah, it fell apart.
And I'm still going through it.
That's something that I'm stilltrying to process, trying to
process separation and trying toprocess recovery is huge.
It's a huge thing for me.
And some days are better thanothers, but...
(17:21):
To wake up in the morning andnot have the love of your life
there anymore was tough.
And it got to a point where itwas just like, yeah, it got to a
point where I needed to dosomething and real quick.
SPEAKER_02 (17:38):
Was the addiction part of that whole breakdown of
your relationship?
SPEAKER_00 (17:42):
100%.
SPEAKER_02 (17:44):
100%.
SPEAKER_00 (17:45):
Okay.
I do understand that there's alot of things that come to play,
and I understand that you don'tblame the addiction.
But I do believe that whilstaddiction gives us a reason for
acting out, it doesn't give youexcuses.
So I do know that there's a lotof other factors that come to
play, but I can hand on my heartsay that there are a lot of
(18:06):
things that I did in activeaddiction that caused the
breakdown of my marriage.
SPEAKER_02 (18:11):
Yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (18:41):
Definitely.
SPEAKER_02 (18:43):
And you said something about the 12-step
program and about addiction, andthat is running away from the
actual issues and either numbingyour emotions or just being
distracted with something else.
Yeah.
(19:03):
And actually facing thosedemons, facing those emotions,
because they're hard to dealwith and they're painful.
And sometimes it's hard toaccept all that hurt and pain.
How did you get to that point tobe able to talk about that?
SPEAKER_00 (19:20):
I've been to enough 12-step meetings now.
And I was doing almost six daysof therapy and rehab a week.
You know, in the first threemonths, it was full on.
It was just like to have runaway from the feelings of
(19:40):
childhood trauma, abandonment,depression, anxiety, to have
shut that out for the last, youknow, 15 years.
And then now to be like, allright, I'm going to feel all of
you.
I'm going to feel all of this.
I'll tell you, I was a mess.
You know, I was a mess.
But I love what my therapistsays.
She says, You can't heal whatyou don't feel.
(20:04):
What did she say?
She said, you were walkingaround bleeding out and you
didn't even know it.
You're walking around bleedingout for the last 15 years and
you didn't even know it becauseyou ignored everything that your
soul was feeling and ran toother things.
And she's like, now we can heal.
And I love that.
So it took a lot.
(20:26):
There were times when it wasjust like some weeks it's like,
I'd rather not want to go.
I don't want to go.
And I used to have friends.
I used to have friends justdrive me there like, nah, you're
going.
And I was like, oh, man.
But every time I went, it's justlike you come in feeling like
real heavy and just like acomplete loser.
(20:46):
You walk out like chest up, youknow, chin up.
It was just like, yeah, wedefinitely can heal and we
definitely do recover.
So yeah.
I'm still very much, like Iacknowledge, I'm still very much
in the early stages.
I just got to 180 days lastweek, which is huge for me.
And, you know, we're just takingit one day at a time, but here I
am feeling to heal.
SPEAKER_02 (21:09):
Well, it's almost like having to go through the
forest, right?
To get to seeing the light atthe end of the tunnel.
And, you know, that, takes a lotof work and a lot of bravery.
So I really commend you forthat.
I hope you could feel thatbecause it does take a lot of
work and breaking down walls,you know, that you've put up for
(21:30):
so many years, just as a meansof protection.
But it's funny how if we don'tgive respect to those emotions,
that they show up in differentways that are unhealthy.
And once you, bring it to thelight and say, you know, I see
you and I'm going to talk withyou today or however it comes
(21:53):
out, you do feel like alightened load, you know, like
you let go and you've releasedit.
So I'm really glad that thatprocess is working for you and
you have a great therapistbecause, you know, that's the
other thing is to find the rightperson to really go through that
whole process you know, processwith you and you feel
(22:15):
comfortable with theirpersonality and you feel like,
you know, maybe they understandyou better than someone else.
SPEAKER_00 (22:22):
Yeah.
No, this particular therapist,like I'm, it's, it's a good
match.
She really calls me out on stufflike that.
She needs to call me out.
But, you know, like I think alot of therapy for me is, is
having to accept that every daythat, yeah, I'm here because I
need help.
I'm here because it's becomeunmanageable.
(22:42):
I'm here because, I need someoneto give me the right tools to
manage this thing.
So because I've remainedteachable, I think I've gotten
the most out of
SPEAKER_02 (22:55):
it.
On top of your childhood and theturbulence there, you said that
you also grew up in a kind of arough neighborhood in Sydney,
Australia.
How did that affect your life asyou were growing up through your
teens into young adulthood?
SPEAKER_00 (23:14):
Yeah, it's funny, hey, because when you think of
Sydney, Australia, you think,how tough can that neighbourhood
be?
Like beaches, kangaroos.
It was really tough, actually.
It was really tough because atthat time when mum left, we
couldn't afford the houseanymore.
So we moved to a really run-downneighbourhood.
(23:36):
And at that time...
It was the number one place forcrime and just for a lot of bad
things to happen.
And it was tough growing up.
I remember being in high school.
There were a lot of gangs inthat area.
And I remember being in highschool and we were forced to
(23:58):
carry weapons in our uniform.
And get this, it was a privateschool.
It was a private school at thetime, but we had this uniform,
we had jackets, and we used tohide little weapons, like
shanks, under our...
Because it got really tough.
You couldn't go home withoutbeing mugged.
You couldn't go home withoutsomeone stealing something off
(24:20):
you.
And so it got that tough.
Plus, at that time, I was stilltrying to process mum leaving.
So I grew up an angry, angrykid, but And underneath all that
anger was a kid that was justhurting.
And I often tell the story tofans, that message, and the
(24:43):
message, they're like, why is itthat you sing like that?
Or how is it that your voice islike that?
And I tell them the story of howI grew up in a really rough
neighborhood where all myfriends were influenced by
hip-hop music.
And I really got into hip-hopand gangster rap because we were
all angry.
But at that time, all I waslistening to was rap.
the music that mum loved, I wasangry in a different way.
(25:06):
I was listening to WhitneyHouston and Joni Mitchell on my
Discman MP3 players because Iwas hurting because mum left.
So that neighbourhood and thatarea that I grew up in actually
really formed a lot of my music.
SPEAKER_02 (25:21):
I saw the beautiful tattoos that you have on your
arm, but I could see where in atough neighbourhood that could
make you look tougher.
You know?
SPEAKER_00 (25:31):
Yeah.
My first tattoo was 13, and Idid that because I was angry at
Dad.
And he didn't find out aboutthat tattoo until I was 21.
I was walking around the house,like, with a singlet on.
And at that time, I'd become sogood at hiding that tattoo that
I didn't even notice it wasthere.
And he was like, what's that?
And I was like, oh, it's atattoo.
And then he got angry.
(25:52):
He's like, when did you getthat?
I was like, oh, almost eightyears ago.
SPEAKER_02 (25:57):
What was the tattoo?
SPEAKER_00 (25:59):
Oh, God.
It's just a cross on my back.
SPEAKER_02 (26:04):
Well, you know, I saw on your YouTube and I
thought it was really great tosee you singing with your mom
and also the encouragement andthe happiness of her seeing you
finally getting to where you'vewanted to go.
And, you know, the fact that youshare that love of music and
(26:25):
something that you feel so muchdeep inside is connected through
your mom.
And she was a professional DJ,which I think is really a cool
thing for a Filipino mom to dothe DJ thing.
Because it's not reallyexpected.
I mean, I'm half Japanese andhalf Chinese.
(26:48):
And I know from my experience,you know, things like music or
entertainment is usually notencouraged in In the Asian
culture.
Oh,
SPEAKER_00 (27:00):
like I thought it was really cool.
But I was asking her for photos.
But there was this one photowhere she was carrying me on her
lap and she was actually puttingthe label on her mixtape.
And I was just like, this iscool.
This is going to be an albumcover one day.
But that's how she met myfather.
(27:22):
My father...
There was like a disco in townand she was the DJ at the disco.
SPEAKER_02 (27:27):
Really?
Yeah.
Oh, that's sweet.
Well, you know, one thing yousaid about your songwriting, you
wrote that I write to stop thebleeding, sometimes to quiet the
voices.
Yeah.
And I was wondering what kind ofvoices were in your head that
you wanted to silence?
SPEAKER_00 (27:47):
Insecurity.
Doubt.
A lot of doubt.
Because my love for music is soclosely tied to mum, I think I
also feel the same way aboutmusic.
Wow, this is really big for meto say, but I feel like music's
going to leave one day.
(28:07):
Because it's so closely tied tomum, that there's a part of me
that feels like the moment isfleeting, that the moment is
passing, that it's somethingthat I can't quite grasp.
And in many ways, I'm still sortof grappling with that, because
I feel like that's...
That brings about the doubt.
Oh, what if I never make it?
Oh, what if I can't live offthis?
Or what if I can't do this?
And so I wanted to silence thosevoices that, you know, I can
(28:31):
just write because I love it.
I don't need to prove a point toanyone.
I just write and sing because Ilove it.
So, you know, when I say I'mquieting the voices, it's a lot
of voices that are of insecurityand self-doubt.
SPEAKER_02 (28:43):
Yeah, that's definitely a very honest
emotion, especially when you'reso motivated.
to be this wonderfulsinger-songwriter.
Well, now that you're on thisbetter, healthier path, you're
sort of a work in progress, andyou see this great light at the
end of the tunnel.
How do you want to spend thenext chapter of your life?
SPEAKER_00 (29:06):
Well, without planning too far ahead, I've
actually booked myself a littleholiday to celebrate 180 days
clean, and I'm just going bymyself.
My friends are like, that'sweird i was like is it though
like it's it's i'm justcelebrating me um it's a little
area in australia calledtasmania and i've literally just
(29:29):
booked a four-wheel drive andi'm doing a five-day road trip
and it's just me soul searchingand it's just me just like a
celebrating and it's I guessit's my way of saying, hey, you
can draw validation from within.
You don't need to run.
You can live your best lifewithout using.
And so when you think about thenext chapter of my life, that's
(29:49):
the person I want to be.
I want to be able to experiencelife in its full through the
lens of recovery.
SPEAKER_02 (29:56):
Well, you know, that's a really good example,
sort of giving yourself creditfor the work that you've done.
And I think oftentimes we're sobusy with our lives that we– We
don't seem to have a problempointing out flaws or mistakes
that we've done or being hard onourselves.
(30:16):
People tend to do that moreoften than saying, you know
what?
I want to celebrate the factthat I'm 180 days sober.
I mean, that is a wonderfulthing.
And I hope you continue to dothat because that is like
something that you do to keepyourself happy and content and
feeling good about yourself.
(30:36):
So I'm glad that you're doingthat and taking the time off too
because, you know, sometimesoverworking can be an issue,
especially as a musician becauseyou love it so much that
sometimes you don't want tostray away from it.
You keep going and going andthat, you know, sometimes can
lead to burnout.
I
SPEAKER_00 (30:56):
agree.
Yeah, I agree.
I was telling my manager, I wasjust like, I'm actually looking
forward to not hearing from youguys in a while.
UNKNOWN (31:04):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (31:05):
In the most loving way, obviously.
I agree, there's power incelebrating.
Full stop.
Celebrate all the victories, nomatter how big, no matter how
small.
Celebrate all of them.
And you are exactly right whenyou say it's so easy to spot out
all the flaws.
And my brain is like that.
I have the sort of brain where Ican get 100 compliments about my
(31:28):
music, and if there's onenegative comment, my brain's
like...
Boom, that's the negativecomment.
That's all we're thinking abouttoday.
So it's quite huge actually toflip that and say, now I'm going
to focus on all the good and I'mgoing to celebrate on all the
good.
SPEAKER_02 (31:43):
We focus a lot on solutions on the podcast because
I feel like it's one thing toshare your story, but it's also
really important to know whatworked for you.
You talked about therapy.
We'd like to say about whatyou've learned in therapy or
maybe even what you've learnedabout yourself.
SPEAKER_00 (32:00):
Yeah, one of the biggest takeaways is that
routine is everything.
There's a saying in my 12-stepmeeting, and the saying is, show
me your routine and I'll showyou your recovery.
It's huge.
So we're big on routine.
And for me, meditation is alarge part of my routine.
(32:20):
I'm big on that, especially as arecovering addict.
We talked about escapism, butmeditation puts you in the now.
makes yourself aware, makes youaware of your thoughts, grounds
you.
And for me, it's been sohealing.
I use an app as a self-guidedmeditation, and it's really done
wonders for me because it'sallowed me to feel.
(32:44):
So that's huge.
And then a good exercise routineis vital, I think.
SPEAKER_02 (32:51):
Well, you know, that's important to bring up
because musicians and creativepeople, I'm going to speak for
myself.
I mean, I grew up in a creativehousehold and we did not have a
lot of routine and establishingthese routines.
Once you get down good routinesthat are healthy for you, it
(33:11):
starts to become just part ofyour life and you don't have to
think about it as much.
SPEAKER_04 (33:17):
Yes.
SPEAKER_02 (33:19):
And you talked about an app.
Now, I want to know what the appis because on
checkyourheadpodcast.com, wehave organizations, apps,
clinics, all free andaffordable.
So when people do get intotrouble and they want to find a
solution, they can go on thewebsite and just try different
(33:40):
things.
So what is this great app thatyou are using?
SPEAKER_00 (33:43):
Yeah, I use an app called Headspace.
So I'm on that like every day.
I'm on that every morning andevery evening, and it's just
part of the routine.
They have courses on that thatyou can do.
You can do single meditations orcourses that last for 30 days or
what have you.
But I'm on one course in theevening that is a five-minute
(34:03):
gratitude meditation, practicinggratitude before I sleep, which
has really, really helped.
And then I have another coursethat I do in the morning, but
it's worked wonders, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (34:15):
Really?
Okay.
UNKNOWN (34:16):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (34:16):
Is there anything else that you would like to say
about mental health or aboutyour music?
SPEAKER_00 (34:22):
Yeah, that we do recover.
And there's not, how do I phrasethis?
Don't look for the light at theend of the tunnel.
You can find the light within.
Yeah.
UNKNOWN (34:35):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (34:37):
Next up, we have a leader on how to make friends
and lasting connections, evenduring this pandemic.
Our featured mental healthexpert is Kat Moore, USC's
Director of Belonging, who willshow us how to feel like we
belong wherever we go.
As someone who admits to havefelt lonely the first 24 years
of her life, Kat shares how ashy, introverted person can live
(34:58):
a more friendly and social life.
Kat also explains the acronymCLICK, and the five components
to make real, authenticrelationships with others.
SPEAKER_01 (35:09):
Prior to COVID, it was over half of the population
was experiencing loneliness.
And for the first time, theyounger generation was more
lonely than any other.
So this was even before COVID, acrisis.
So I like to tell people thatthere's no such thing as
loneliness with a capital L.
That everyone is experiencingwhat we have is loneliness.
(35:33):
millions of lonelinesses with alowercase l, meaning every
single person experiencingloneliness is experiencing it
for a host of reasons.
And so it can be anything.
It can be that you don't haveaccess to a lot of different
people.
Maybe you live in a rural areawhere there's just not a lot of
(35:56):
humans to choose from.
You could have internalized alot of negative self-esteem
messages from people around you.
that can make it difficult foryou to think that you have
anything to offer in afriendship or a relationship.
And so you shut down.
There's a ton of differentreasons.
It could be that you were nevertaught and modeled basic social
(36:16):
skills.
So there's a lot of differentreasons people are experiencing
loneliness, but we still knowthat we're all wired to connect
and that meaningful connectionis the number one predictor of
our wellbeing across thelifespan.
So how do we Think about thereally tiny details of each of
our lives to see where we canstart making meaningful
(36:37):
connections where we are.
And there's another conceptcalled weak ties.
And these are relationships thataren't necessarily like your
best friend or your soulmate,but they're just people that you
can say hi to and be friendlywith.
Those weak tie relationshipsthat you can form in one day in
a new city or while travelingare those still register as
(36:59):
positive and meaningful and havean impact on you.
So it's not like either talkwith your best friend or talk
with no one.
There's a huge variety ofrelationships that are possible
and that enrich both people'slives.
SPEAKER_02 (37:14):
You know, a lot of musicians, no matter how much
they run around on stage andbreak guitars and all those
crazy stuff, A lot of them arevery introverted.
What are some of the things thata shy, introverted person can do
to feel more comfortablesocializing?
SPEAKER_01 (37:30):
Preaching to the choir, I also am an introvert
and very shy.
The first thing I would say isto accept that that's part of
what you're experiencing and notget down on yourself.
by comparing yourself to someoneelse who seems like they're so
at ease and so extroverted orwhatever it is, to just befriend
(37:53):
that about yourself and knowthat there's nothing wrong with
you.
That's a way that you're wired.
And to be kind with yourself, toask, well, what would make me
feel more comfortable?
What kind of situations am Imore comfortable in?
So for example, a lot ofintroverts are more comfortable
in small group settings.
(38:14):
And so Maybe don't go to thegigantic, loud, overwhelming
party.
Go to the dinner party.
You know, so there can be waysthat you can anticipate which
scenarios are better suited tothe kind of conversations or
activities that you'recomfortable with.
Often, too, some people are verycomfortable connecting by
(38:34):
talking.
Let's sit down and talk aboutour life.
How are you doing?
How are you feeling?
That's overwhelming to otherpeople.
So think Sometimes people preferto get to know a group or a
person by doing things together.
And sometimes in a small groupwhere there's less pressure,
one-on-one.
So you can think about what arethe things that help me feel
(38:57):
comfortable?
Do I like hiking?
Do I like whatever it is?
So that you can just putyourself in situations where
you're most comfortable.
People get a lot of anxietyabout not being interesting,
running out of questions.
these sorts of things happensall the time.
And the number one thing, youknow, give yourself some time to
prepare yourself before you gointo any situation.
(39:20):
Give yourself a little pep talkand tell yourself that you have
value to offer the people thatyou're about to interact with.
Not because you're smart, notbecause you're talented, but
because you care about them.
And once you think of yourselfas a gift to the other people,
that you could be there tolisten to someone who
desperately needs to be listenedto that day.
(39:42):
It kind of shifts the dynamicfrom it being about someone
being able to reject you, whichis the basic fear going on here,
right?
That we're going to be rejected.
If you can shift it to beinglike, no, I'm going to listen to
these people and discover whothese people are, it
automatically changes thedynamic.
And people are desperate to belistened to.
(40:04):
So if you can go into situationsrather than thinking about what
do I have to do or not do or sayor not say and just say, I'm
going to show up and listen topeople.
That will pave the way.
Yeah,
SPEAKER_02 (40:17):
I think that is really key because I know when I
started out as a journalist, Ithought, okay, I have the easy
part.
I get to develop the questions.
The other person has to talk.
And it's the same with aconversation, right?
It's like if you focus yourquestions on the other person
they say that person will goaway more than likely feeling
(40:39):
like they had a wonderfulconversation with you because
there's a percent yeah there isa great feeling about okay wow
this person is interested in meand they want to get to know who
i am you also have somethingcalled the click class
SPEAKER_01 (40:54):
can you tell me what that stands for So CLIC is an
acronym that stands for the fivedimensions of making meaningful
relationships.
So you got to have each one ofthese in place if you're trying
to forge meaningfulrelationships in your life.
So connecting as we are,authentically and in our real
(41:16):
lives, listening first,investigating with curiosity,
communicating kindness, andkeeping in touch.
So those are the elements thatgo into creating deep and
meaningful relationships,whether they're friendships or
with neighbors or coworkers.
And so I created five-weekworkshops where people
(41:39):
experiencing loneliness anddisconnection.
Now on Zoom, it had been inperson.
So I get 18-year-olds to55-year-olds, and we're
essentially sitting in a circleon Zoom.
And we're sharing our socialstories.
What was friendship like for yougrowing up?
What are your obstacles?
What are your hopes?
What are you looking for in afriend?
(42:00):
What's really hard about this?
What do you want to do next?
And we're practicing all kindsof skills like making eye
contact, like asking open-endedquestions and solving problems
together.
So it's designed to reallyempower people wherever they're
at on their social journey, butgiving them an experience
(42:20):
immediately that of connectionand belonging so that they don't
feel like they have to figure itall out on their own.
I'm partnering with differentorganizations to adapt Click so
that their employees can have anopportunity to find meaningful
connection, especially whenpeople are working remotely.
SPEAKER_02 (42:39):
Yeah, that's really important.
You know, to feel welcome and asense of belonging where you
work, which is such a big partof your life.
I've realized that the fear ofbeing alone is one of the most
common ones.
And it can affect the decisionsin our life, such as staying in
an abusive relationship or onethat's not right for us.
(43:00):
I'm worried that some of thethings that we have to watch out
for, you know, pitfalls, so thatour loneliness doesn't create
bad decisions in our life.
SPEAKER_01 (43:11):
The need to feel like you belong somewhere and to
someone.
is the deepest need that wehave.
And so it makes sense that ifthat's not in place, if we're
not assured of where we are andwho we're tethered to, it can
create absolutely cripplingfear.
(43:34):
And so that can drive us to stayin relationships or situations
that we know is not healthy, butit still feels like, well, it's
better than being alone becauseit can be traumatic.
to feel existentially alone inthe world and so one of the
things that i encourage peopleto do is to think really kind of
(43:56):
zoom out from whatever therelationship you're in and know
that we need to have multiplekinds of relationships that
we're in and they don't all haveto be super best friend intense
lifelong relationships but ifyou can even have one other
person that you can be investingin.
(44:18):
A friend, someone, a barista atthe coffee shop, your grandma, a
neighbor.
It really doesn't matter as longas the relationship is basically
intact and healthy.
Even having one otherrelationship can give you enough
wiggle room to not feel likeyou're trapped, like all of your
eggs are in one basket.
(44:38):
Because that can just be analmost impossible situation to
find yourself in.
So I just really encouragepeople to think broadly and
think longer term so that youdon't get stuck in a situation
and it turn into a crisis.
So kind of the morerelationships we can have, it
(44:58):
can provide like a nest for usthat if a major relationship
needs to be pulled out becauseit's toxic, we don't feel like
we're going to free fall.
There's still something to catchus.
And that was my experiencebefore.
I was able to finally get out ofthe abusive situation I was in
because I had been building thiscoffee shop network.
(45:22):
Now, none of them were like bestfriend level relationships, but
it was enough.
They were friendly.
They were consistent.
They were available.
And so that was enough to catchme so that I could get out of
something toxic.
Now, if I wouldn't have had thatkind of social safety net, I
don't know what would havehappened.
(45:42):
So to be creating at least one,of course, I'd recommend
something like three to fouranchor people that you could be
investing in.
SPEAKER_02 (45:52):
Yeah, I could see where it's just important to
have that support of a goodcircle of family and friends
that you could rely on anddepend on.
And vice versa, right?
I mean, it's definitely always atwo-way relationship when you
have somebody really importantin your life.
Years ago, I heard somethingcalled warm lines.
(46:12):
And we all hear about crisislines when you're really having
something extreme happening inyour life, you need to talk
about it.
But a warm line is like, youknow, I just want to talk with
somebody.
I just want to interact over thephone or by text or something.
It's not a crisis, but it can bedue to loneliness.
(46:33):
I mean, what can you do in thosecases when you're physically
SPEAKER_01 (46:36):
separated from people?
Some people choose into isolatedsituations and some people have
them thrust upon us.
And I think all of us haveexperienced some version of
isolation that was unwantedduring COVID.
And it can create empathy for usfor people who are incarcerated,
people who are in retirementhomes who can't have access to
(46:59):
as many people.
So one of the things to thinkabout, you have to develop the
skills to of focusing yourmental energy, focusing your
thought life.
And there's a lot that can bedone with mindfulness practices,
for example, to start to payattention to your breath and
start to pay attention to yourthoughts and your emotions and
(47:22):
to start becoming aware of whatyou're experiencing so that you
can start focusing your thoughtlife in certain directions.
One of the most amazing examplesof this is The author, Viktor
Frankl, who was in aconcentration camp, and he wrote
a whole book called Man's Searchfor Meaning.
And talking about the power thatwe still have that no one can
(47:45):
take away from us, which is ourpower to choose what we're going
to think about.
And so he would hold forth inhis mind visions of what he
wanted to do and become with hislife after he got out.
And that's one of the thingsthat gave him motivation to keep
living and to keep thrivingdespite really the most horrific
(48:05):
conditions that we can imagine.
So I think starting with yourbreath, starting with if you
have a way to journal, a way tostill create, right?
You can compose in your mind themelodies.
there's certain things thatcan't be taken away from you and
being able to focus on those inthose periods can be really
(48:25):
life-saving.
SPEAKER_02 (48:26):
It almost sounds like, I mean, not only these
creative projects that you couldhave in your head and talking to
yourself in your head, it'salmost like having to build a
better relationship withyourself because that's pretty
much what you have.
And I've heard that monks andpeople that are in these
(48:47):
situations, that what theythought about and what they did
in solitary confinement reallyhelped
SPEAKER_01 (48:55):
save them.
Solitude and silence are twospiritual practices or
disciplines that almost everyworld religion or culture has
had some familiarity with wherethose are chosen into.
The experience of loneliness iswhen you feel like your social
(49:16):
needs aren't being met.
But in solitude, that'ssomething we can choose into as
a practice that actually helpsus collect ourselves, collect
our thoughts, collect what ourvalues are, collect our
experiences so that we can bemore integrated as a person and
(49:37):
understand our motives and ourdreams.
And it can be a very healthything.
to have that space.
And then out of that space,we're more equipped to go into
community and go intorelationships more integrated.
So if there's ways that we canunderstand even COVID as a very
extended period of solitude,that can give us some sense of
(50:02):
empowerment.
Like, oh, I might never get thiskind of opportunity again in my
lifetime to have this muchsolitude.
How can I use it to my benefit?
And I've had a lot of studentschoose to take it that way and
have seen incredible personalgrowth, self-discovery come out
of this period, even though,yes, they still miss their
(50:24):
friends.
Yes, they want to still go andhang out and go to concerts and
all the things, but we can leaninto a more ancient framework of
solitude and being incrediblyhelpful for our own relationship
with ourself, befriendingourself, and knowing that that's
also going to equip us to be abetter friend in our
relationships as well.
SPEAKER_02 (50:46):
A big thank you to our musical guest, Kat Carter,
and our mental health expert,Kat Moore.
For more information on CapCarter, visit CapCarter.com and
follow Cap on his socials, atCap Carter and at CapXCarter,
and stay tuned for a clip of CapCarter's single, Relapse, at the
end of our episode.
(51:07):
For more information on CatMoore, visit Cat-Moore.com and
follow Cat on Facebook, at CatMoore Belonging, and Instagram,
at Cat underscore Mooreunderscore.
Visit CheckYourHeadPodcast.comto find more mental health
solutions and follow us on oursocials at CheckYourHeadPodcast.
(51:29):
So until next time, be brave,ask for help, and be persistent
in finding the mental healththat you
SPEAKER_03 (51:34):
need.
Check
SPEAKER_02 (52:08):
Your Head Podcast is kindly supported and partnered
with Sweet Relief MusiciansFund, DBSA San Gabriel Valley,
Earshot Media, and Lemon TreeStudios in Los Angeles.
Visit checkyourheadpodcast.comwhere we have over 100 solutions
for mental health.
Be our friends on social mediaat Check Your Head Podcast.
(52:28):
Watch us on YouTube and supportus with a kind donation on
checkyourheadpodcast.com.
Check Your Head Podcast issponsored by a 501c3 nonprofit
with all donations being taxdeductible.
Thank you for your support andthank you for listening.
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