Mari Fong interviews Hannah Hooper of Grouplove and Hallie Lincoln & Hilary Gleason of Backline. Hannah Hooper shares her story of battling stage fright and recovery, while finding self-love and empowerment. Grouplove’s surprise 5th album, This Is This, represents evolving, healing and a way to vent your emotions from the frustrations of the pandemic. A clip of their single "Deadline" is featured at the end of the episode.
Hannah describes her experience with Adderall and how getting off the medication positively affected her as an artist. Hannah admits to such bad stage fright that she’d literally hide behind a mask. Hear how she overcomes and chooses to be a positive, empowered role model for women. Hannah believes Mac Miller helped her write the song “Broken Angel” after his passing. Hannah survives brain surgery and talks about the self-care she practices for good mental health.
Next, experts Hallie Lincoln, clinical case manager, and Hilary Gleason, both co-founders of Backline, talk about how Backline.org assists musicians and their families in connecting them to mental help resources, support groups and recovery programs. How a musician’s lifestyle can sabotage their mental health and how to make mental health a priority while on tour and in daily life.
“Be brave, ask for help, and be persistent in finding the mental help that you need.”
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
Welcome to the Check Your Head podcast, the podcast
where notable musicians andexperts come and share their
stories and solutions for mentalhealth and wellness.
I'm your host, Mari Fong, amusic journalist and life coach
for musicians.
And I'm excited because we arecelebrating Mental Health
(00:21):
Awareness Month for the month ofMay.
And on May 20th, we'recelebrating Mental Health Action
Day with our partners at MTVEntertainment Group, Sweet
Relief Musicians Fund and manymore.
So here at the Check Your Headpodcast, every day is Mental
Health Action Day with storiesfocused on solutions for
recovery and our website atcheckyourheadpodcast.com
(00:44):
featuring over 100organizations, nonprofits, apps,
and more for you to take actionon.
But in honor of Mental HealthAwareness Month, I'm going to
focus on one thing that is afoundation for good mental
health and is something thatmany of us take for granted.
But that key ingredient issleep.
Sleep.
(01:05):
A good night's sleep heals usboth mentally and physically.
A good night's sleep allows usto wake up refreshed and
recharged for the day, while abad night's sleep can make us
feel grumpy or depressed andgive us physical symptoms like
headaches or where you can'tthink straight or work properly.
Sleep can be a challenge with amusician's lifestyle.
(01:27):
There's late night gigs,Partying and socializing to the
wee hours.
And if you're an up-and-comingband, you may have to get up
early for that day job.
And if you're on tour, you maybe sleeping on a noisy bus or
van with a bunch of othermusicians.
Not the best lifestyle forgetting good sleep.
So my challenge for you is, whataction will you take to help
(01:49):
ensure you get the best possiblenight's sleep every night?
For me, I admit that in thepast, I wasn't mindful of my
sleep.
I kept a nightlight on, playedon my phone before bed, maybe I
was socializing and I had acouple drinks, and I had no
sleep routine because I thoughtsleep was just something that
happened.
(02:10):
But when you have a mooddisorder, like depression or
anxiety, your sleep does suffer,and there's definitely a link
between getting a good night'ssleep and good mental health.
So what changes have I made?
Now my sleep routine includesdoing some hard exercise in the
morning.
And when it's time for sleep, Iprepare for it.
I try to sleep at around thesame time at night and wake up
(02:32):
eight hours or more later.
I use the sleep mask, earplugs.
I have a cool temperature in thebedroom.
And before bedtime, no drinkingalcohol or using electronics.
Do I do this every night?
No.
But I try to.
Sometimes I slip up.
But I found that doing thesethings over time has really
(02:53):
improved my sleep quality and mymental and physical well-being.
So my challenge is, what actionwill you be taking this month to
improve your sleep?
Let us know on our socials atCheckYourHeadPodcast.
Now to our featured guests.
Today, I'm thrilled to talk withthe singer of a band that
(03:13):
dropped an album, Healer, in2020 and just dropped a surprise
album on March of 2021 calledThis Is This.
They are the first band in theUS to be certified climate
positive by the United Nationsand has been busy during the
pandemic raising funds forimportant causes like Campaign
Zero to end police brutality,the Ally Coalition for LGBTQ
(03:38):
Youth, and the Mac Miller Fundthat assists musicians in
substance abuse recovery.
Our musical guest today isHannah Hooper from Group Love,
who shares her story of stagefright and finding self-love and
empowerment.
Hannah also talks about herfriend Mac Miller and how she
felt he co-wrote the song BrokenAngel with her after his
(04:01):
passing.
I'll be playing a clip fromgroup love single Deadline from
their new album This Is This, sostay tuned for that.
Next, I talk with experts fromthe nonprofit Backline, an
organization that connects thosein the music industry with
therapists, support groups, andmental health resources.
(04:21):
We have co-founders HollyLincoln and Hilary Gleason talk
about the lifestyle and demandsof musicians that can sometimes
sabotage good mental health andhow their services can easily
assist those in the industry.
But first, let's hear HannahHooper of Group Love share her
story.
You dropped a surprise albumcalled This Is This, and the
(04:45):
first single is Deadline, so bigcongrats on that.
Thank you.
Listen to the whole album, and Idescribe it in three adjectives,
although there's so many morethat I could think of.
But I feel like it's fun, it'sdreamy, it's avant-garde, but
it's really a great album tovent to.
SPEAKER_01 (05:04):
Yeah, that was the point.
I mean, that's honestly why wemade it.
We made it for our own need tovent during this time.
And the response we've gotten inthe last few days has been
exactly what we were talkingabout before, but the more
honest you are, the morevulnerable we are, the more
people are responding to it.
And I think this is honestly atestament to that.
SPEAKER_00 (05:26):
Yeah, I loved all the songs, but there was one
song in particular that wasdeeper, a little bit darker.
It's called Shout.
And some of the lyrics include,"'I cover up my wounds, always
with my sleeves,"'I'm black andblue and green and everything in
between.'" I hide behind myfriends so no one really sees.
(05:49):
You are not alone.
What was your intention behindwriting this song?
Oh
SPEAKER_01 (05:56):
my gosh.
I mean, that song came out ofjust so much work I've been
doing on myself, really.
And the idea that all my woundsand all my pain and stuff is
actually beautiful and issomething that needs to be
shared.
And this album for me, likelearning to sing that way,
Learning to scream with my bandand learning to, I mean, I cried
(06:19):
a lot recording that song.
I think there's been this partof me, this, my whole life that
I've been sort of ashamed of orunable to get in touch with.
And she's more aggressive andshe's in pain and she's scared
and she's been in places thathave been uncomfortable.
And I've definitely in my lifebeen hard on myself.
(06:40):
I honestly felt a pretty seriousrelease when the song was
written.
It was like a healing thathappened really quickly.
It's like I've been in therapymy whole life, but it took
writing the song to actually puteverything I've been working on
together in one moment andrelease it.
Yeah, every time I perform thatsong, I can attach myself to the
(07:01):
feeling before writing the songand then who I am now after
writing the song.
And it's crazy how certainevents in your life can...
change you and writing this andbeing so free in a room with my
band they honestly came in inthe moment and they started
singing you are not alone youare not alone it was this whole
cathartic experience for all ofus and so this song it took
(07:24):
shape in a really beautiful wayat a really important point for
me
SPEAKER_00 (07:27):
well you know what i completely felt that And I can
see you performing this live andeverybody just shouting that and
just having that same catharticfeeling of letting go and just
dropping maybe the shame or theguilt or whatever it is that
we're carrying that maybe has nouse for us anymore.
(07:49):
And, you know, to get lighter.
SPEAKER_01 (07:51):
That's the goal.
I mean, inevitably our goal is,or my goal is to, to be happy,
you know, whatever that means.
It's not in the cheesy, like, Iwant to be happy, but it's like
life is the purpose for me is tofind happiness.
And that's always evolving andchanging.
Starting at a really young age,I always felt I was battling
(08:12):
that somehow.
And there were so many differentreasons.
I think just going throughpuberty is a crazy experience as
a woman, learning to loveyourself, love your body, love
who you are, feel comfortablefinding friends.
exploring my artistry todiscover who I really am.
There are so many stages inlearning to love myself, right?
(08:33):
It's crazy now as a mother in aband, I really feel like I've
taken this new step of gettingto know myself and learning to
love this person as a whole andnot in pieces, not in separate
compartmentalizing like, oh,this part of me is better than
this part of me.
Loving all of me has really beena huge thing.
(08:53):
And now Here I
SPEAKER_00 (08:55):
am.
There you are.
It's funny how we can be so openand loving to other people and
nonjudgmental, but oftentimes wejudge ourselves and really go
hard on ourselves.
And one thing that stood outwhen you were talking is the
feelings of shame.
And we all grew up with thingsthat we're embarrassed about or
(09:17):
feel shameful about.
Is there something in particularthat really haunted you from the
past?
SPEAKER_01 (09:25):
I don't know if it was anything specific.
I was honestly hard on myself onso many levels.
It was kind of crazy.
I feel like I had a brother anda sister who, like, they were
perfect in so many ways.
They were like straight-Astudents.
They were star athletes.
They were beautiful.
They were physically fit.
Just the whole thing.
And I was the middle child andfelt like my grades were kind of
(09:48):
lower.
I was chubby.
I was always drawing by myself.
I just felt like I didn'thave...
the thing they had.
So from a very young age, I feltdifferent.
And I feel like if they werelistening to this, they're like,
what are you talking about,Hannah?
You were funny.
But there was a person who I wasin my house with my family.
And then there was the person Iwas outside my house.
So I was just insecure.
(10:08):
I really didn't know how to lovemyself for who I am.
And I was always looking tochange myself, whether it was in
my style or becoming thinneror...
Actually, there's a memory inhigh school, I was put on
Adderall for...
attention, whatever reasons theythought.
I remember it changing me soquickly.
(10:28):
Like it changed my body.
It changed my grades.
It changed the way I connectedto people and not in a positive
way.
Honestly, the outcome of takingthat medication for a very long
time really messed me up for along time.
It's like, there's a quick fixto things.
You know what I mean?
And so on the outside, peoplethought I'd found this quick
fix, but actually what it wasdoing was making me further and
(10:51):
further away from myself.
I was basically on anamphetamine for years that I
thought was helping me.
And it was taking me away frommyself in a lot of ways.
I have this memory of being inNew York and getting off it and
having the world sort of sloweddown for a minute.
And I was really starting topaint things that I believed in
and I was writing things that Iunderstood.
(11:12):
And it was like, I was back.
I came out of this super sped upworld that I'd been living in.
And it was an interestingexperience.
It was the beginning ofsomething.
I don't know.
That was like a big thing for meto learn how to love myself
without a medication.
SPEAKER_00 (11:27):
You know, that's really interesting.
How long were you on Adderall?
Probably 10 years.
10 years.
Yeah.
Okay.
And then after you got off ofit, it sounds like you were able
to feel more of your emotions.
Definitely.
It kind of does sound like youstarted to blossom, just kind of
rediscovering yourself.
SPEAKER_01 (11:47):
Yeah.
I mean- I felt like I had thissecret thing that I'd been
taking that was giving me moreenergy and giving me the ability
to do more than I was, but Iwasn't actually doing it.
It wasn't like I was in my bodywhen I was on Adderall, if this
makes sense.
So when I got off it, I wasreconnecting to myself in more
of a complete state.
It was this beautiful momentwhere I was like, I mean, I am
(12:11):
enough.
I'm enough now.
I don't need something to helpme.
I can slow down.
I can focus.
I can do this.
Actually, that's what'sinteresting.
That's what makes me unique isthat I am easily distracted and
I pull all these thingstogether.
And that's actually how I createart.
So the moment I stopped, Ireally started becoming in touch
with who I am as an artist, myown unique voice.
(12:33):
That's when I really startedlooking into that and that
direction.
And it was, yeah, it wasimportant.
SPEAKER_00 (12:40):
You talked about the song Shout, and I did feel like
just raw vulnerability in thatsong, different from the others
on the album.
And so whatever was going onwith you, you know, I really did
feel that.
But you did mention a few thingsabout your past.
(13:00):
You mentioned possibly havingsome ADHD symptoms because of
the Adderall.
When you look back, how hasmental health changed affected
you personally with mooddisorders, depression, anxiety,
anything like that?
SPEAKER_01 (13:17):
I mean, I had it all.
I think that the biggest part ofmy journey with mental health
was being in this band becausethere's no hiding when you're in
a band.
You're surrounded by peopleconstantly.
You have to go on stage.
So you're in front of strangers.
I mean, I was very insecure.
I had to face a lot of my demonspersonally.
right away because I had reallybad stage fright, which was the
(13:39):
first thing I had to conquer.
We were going on stage no matterwhat.
Our first album, when we droppedit, had a lot of momentum.
So our audience was gettingbigger and bigger and we were
playing more and more shows.
Along with that came a lot oflike, wow, who am I going to be
on stage?
Do I want to be this girl thatis insecure about my body?
Do I want to represent that forother women?
(14:01):
I need to learn to love thisperson now.
And I honestly started dressingthe part.
I started wearing cat suits andloving my body and loving my
shape and throwing my bodyaround on stage.
As people started loving theband, I almost had to create
this person that I loved andthen I stepped into her because
(14:21):
it was so much change all atonce.
And I knew that I wanted to be apositive image for other women.
And To do that took, honestly,it just took a lot of balls.
I was like, I need to createthis person.
I need to step into her.
And so that's what I did.
SPEAKER_00 (14:38):
Talking with a lot of musicians, a lot of them grew
up introverted and shy.
And to get up on stage, oh mygosh.
So it's almost like you stepinto a persona or a character
that you create.
And then I read that you alsoused to wear a mask during your
shows.
Because those...
(14:59):
Kind of hiding
SPEAKER_01 (15:00):
a little bit.
A little bit.
I mean, that's exactly what itwas.
I was hiding and I really wastrying to figure out how to
just, the craziest thing is allalong I was like, I know that
there is this moment, there hasto be this moment where this
discomfort breaks.
I'm not saying it's gone now,but there's a way like I look
forward to going on stagebecause I get to feel that
(15:20):
superhero version of me, whichis really exciting to be able to
tap into that because, you know,we all have that person in us.
The more I learned to lovemyself, the more I was surprised
at what I was doing.
The more I was like, oh my God,I'm telling people to get their
hands up on stage.
I'm jumping into the audience.
I'm in a cat suit.
I'm writing music with myhusband and my band.
(15:40):
I'm doing all these things.
If you'd gone back even just afew years, I would have been
terrified to do any of them.
Part of it was that I just hadno choice and I had to keep
doing it.
So there's something in stayingactive, continuing to do it
every day.
Things become less scary.
It wasn't just all of a suddenovernight, like one show I was
scared and the next show Iwasn't.
But I have a memory of being inBerlin and we couldn't find my
(16:05):
mask.
And I actually had just read awrite-up of a show before where
someone was like, oh, I thinkthat the girl in the band maybe
has burns on her face orsomething because she's hiding
under a mask.
Oh, okay, yeah, maybe it's timeto take the mask off.
And then the next show wecouldn't find it.
I secretly feel like my drummerat the time hid it, but we
couldn't find it, so...
(16:26):
Yeah, it was definitely brightred.
Like when I get nervous, I getbright red from my chest all the
way up to my face.
I'm a redhead.
There's no hiding it.
So I feel like I was in thatstate of shock for a while.
And then it slowly got easier.
SPEAKER_00 (16:42):
Well, you know, I'm a big advocate for practicing.
Practicing.
Because I do find there's a lotof things that are scary
sometimes.
But the more that we do them,the more it gets familiar to us.
And we learn something everytime we do something, right?
Every time.
Yeah.
(17:03):
I have daughters myself and I'llbe like, just keep doing it.
You're getting better everysingle time.
Just that thought.
You know, it is true.
Same with so many differentthings.
But talking about your liveshows, you dropped Healer last
year, right at the start of thepandemic.
And now you've dropped This IsThis.
Will you tell me about theanxiety and the frustration of
(17:27):
not being able to promote thatalbum, you know, right when you
had all those plans?
SPEAKER_01 (17:33):
Yeah, I was obviously in a different place
then than I am now.
But like when we found out, sothere's like a little backstory
to that.
Healer is called Healer becauseI just had brain surgery.
I don't know if you know that.
So that album, I honestly don'tknow if I was fully recovered
enough to be going on touranyway.
So there is a little bit oflight for me at the beginning of
the pandemic.
(17:53):
I had to put all my heart andsoul into this album with the
band.
And I was in the middle of doingall our outfits and lighting and
everything was ready to go.
We were at this high.
We were in London.
We were coming back to LA forour album release party.
And it was the day we found outthat the world was shutting
down.
And I remember initially, Imean, it was really, really hard
(18:15):
to come down from that high whenyou've been building and making
something and making something.
And also like I needed to getback on stage to show my body
that I was healed.
Literally, I wanted to know thatI was better.
And the craziest thing is thatduring this time, we've written
and recorded this album, This IsThis.
This is the album that reallyhealed me because I found my
(18:38):
real voice.
This album is the part of methat I've been hiding.
There's a more aggressive, moreemotional piece of me that I
feel like I've been able toshare.
And it's really, this has healedme.
And I feel very complete as anartist, which I've never felt
before.
And it's exciting because I'mwriting from a place that is
(18:59):
really open.
I mean, this pandemic has beenterrible.
We've made not a single pennysince it started because we make
all our money touring.
I mean, it's been so hard onartists.
It's been an awful time foreveryone.
Really, really hard.
And I don't want to play thatdown at all.
But on a personal level, I havedefinitely found my voice.
SPEAKER_00 (19:20):
Well, I definitely heard the power behind the songs
on that album beyond the songsthat I've heard from previous
albums.
So I could sense that, you know,and it's good to receive that
kind of energy because I thinkit empowers listeners too.
But you mentioned your brainsurgery and you had a cavernous
(19:41):
malformation and you had to havebrain surgery.
How did you first respondreceiving that news?
especially being married with adaughter?
I
SPEAKER_01 (19:50):
honestly, it was a weird thing.
I immediately started worryingabout Christian and my husband
and the way if the roles werereversed, how I would be so
scared.
Because when he gets a cold, I'mlike, oh my gosh, let's go check
that out.
So he was just a rock for me thewhole time.
So I honestly, I worry about thepeople around me before I worry
(20:12):
about myself.
So I was very concerned on howto explain it to my daughter.
And I was really concerned abouthim so part of me was playing up
like i'm cool let's keep workingeverything's fine and in a way
because of all these things i'dbeen through in my life it
didn't feel that scary i feltlike i knew i would be okay it
was crazy to have a problem thatwas medical and serious and it
(20:34):
wasn't self-inflicted on myselffor the first time something
that i'd created in my mind doyou know what i mean it was like
a physical thing rather thandepression or I feel like I've
kind of self-imposed in my life,but to have a medical condition,
I knew that I would be okay.
Christian told me the storyafter the surgery when we knew I
(20:55):
was okay.
We'd say goodnight at night andhe would just lay on the pillow
and look at me and be like, ohmy God, in like two weeks, my
wife is going to get brainsurgery.
Her head is going to get cutopen and this thing is going to
be removed.
And the strength that he had tonot show me that he was scared
was really what got me through.
And the whole time.
I mean, it was that he showed nofear around me.
(21:18):
He's an amazing person.
SPEAKER_00 (21:23):
You know what?
I mean, it's so important tohave a good partner in your
life.
It's not just the mental part ofit, but the physical part, the
intimacy.
So I'm really glad that you haveChristian and your daughter and
other people around you toreally support you and to help
give you strength during thosetimes.
And you know, one thing I readis that months before the
(21:45):
surgery, you said you tried tostay distracted and not spiral.
What does that mean to spiralfor you?
Oh,
SPEAKER_01 (21:52):
well, it's like a loop almost.
It happens sometimes when, let'ssay I'm on tour, where my voice
starts getting hoarse, and it'sthe night before a show, because
we'll do like five shows in arow.
Spiraling for me is I'm in bed,I know I need to be going to
sleep and I start thinkingabout, Oh, it hurts when I
swallow.
(22:12):
Oh, I should go get some water.
And I, I basically start createthis entire, it's like I live
out the next few weeks of mylife.
They've become a disaster.
I've lost my voice.
I go through it all.
And, um, you live events outthat will never take place in
your life because through thepower of your mind, like we go
through so many more issues justby living them out, like
(22:33):
imagining them.
And, uh, Yeah, that's spiralingfor me.
So I honestly, I meditate nowevery day.
And that has changed my life.
I do not spiral as much.
Meditation.
SPEAKER_00 (22:44):
And what is it that meditation brings to you?
Or what do you receive frommeditation?
I
SPEAKER_01 (22:54):
mean, first off, just an immense amount of
clarity and calmness, which is,I have a pretty chaotic life.
dedicating time for myself whereI can be present and feel my
breath and just know that like,I'm good to come back to that
place of, I am good.
I'm here.
I'm breathing all these things.
(23:16):
Then I can go on with it.
And I'm like, okay, it's when Idon't take that time for myself
that everything can sort of pileup, but like running late
dishes, writing a song,interviews, like all that stuff,
just, it all becomes the samelevel of intensity.
And so to be able to take amoment and slow down, then
suddenly I'm like, oh, life isbeautiful.
And this is great.
SPEAKER_00 (23:38):
Yeah, it does take those quiet moments to kind of
realize all of those wonderfulthings in your life.
And, you know, I saw a photothat I found really interesting.
I saw the words self-caretattooed on Christian's fingers.
Was there an incident orsituation that inspired him to
get that tattoo?
SPEAKER_01 (23:57):
Yeah, our friend Mac Miller put out an album,
Self-Care, and he passed away.
And Christian, he tattooed thatto commemorate him.
But then also, we are peoplethat constantly need to remind
ourselves to take care ofourselves.
And that is how you can startyour day and then help others
and spread love and be able toput on a show like we do or any
(24:22):
of it.
It starts with loving yourself.
And Christian is, I mean, Iliterally married Buddha.
I married the calmest, kindest,most supportive person ever.
I mean, the fact that not onlyis he so supportive of the
album, This Is This, where I'mliterally singing more than I've
ever sung in my life.
He's so proud of it.
And he was there just beinglike, you're crushing it.
(24:43):
Like, go back in there.
You know what I mean?
To have someone who's soselfless in that way because he
feels so fulfilled by otherpeople's joy.
It's really a beautiful thing.
And he's taught me so much aboutthat because he was already in
that self-love.
He's always been there.
I don't know how.
His mom tells me he's just beenthis way his entire life.
And it's wild.
(25:05):
And it's beautiful.
SPEAKER_00 (25:07):
You know, when I read about how you met, it
almost seemed like when you sawhim, the clouds parted and the
birds started to sing.
And it just seemed like thismoment that the universe brought
him to you or brought you bothtogether.
And so it's really great to hearthat after...
You know, you had that initialfeeling that all of those things
(25:30):
about him just line up so wellwith you and your personality.
Getting back to the self-care,which is so important to keep
that in mind.
And my gosh, he has a remindernow on his fingers, along with,
of course, Mac Miller, which,you know, great friends.
And I'm so sorry to hear that,that you lost your friend.
But what does self-care looklike to you?
SPEAKER_01 (25:54):
I think self-care, this is a really interesting
thing because we moved from LosAngeles to Atlanta during this
pandemic.
And I think when I was in LA, Iwas sort of obsessed.
I would wake up there and openmy email and I would have like,
do this six-day juice cleanse,come self-care yoga down the
block, like blah, blah, blah.
The consumerist version of whatself-care is.
(26:15):
I moved to Atlanta and it's avery different city here, but
Self-care is turning my phoneoff.
Self-care is being present withmy daughter and just being with
her and going on a walk.
Self-care is slowing down andnot trying to get 400,000 things
done at the same time, butactually experiencing each thing
(26:37):
and living in it and enjoying itso that I've accomplished it to
the fullest.
So that when I move on to thenext thing, I feel like I gave
that my all.
whether it was my daughter ortime with my husband or writing
a letter to someone or this zoomcall right here.
You know what I mean?
Like it's whatever I'm doing, Iwant to be here and then, you
(26:59):
know, do the next thing.
So I remember in LA, I wouldhave my phone open.
I'd be eating lunch.
I'd be surrounded by the band,you know, like it was too many
things at once.
There's no, I wasn't taking careof myself in a way that I
thought I was.
And by stepping away from thatpattern, I've just been like,
ah, I genuinely feel so muchhealthier here.
(27:21):
And I think a lot of it is thatyou can't really buy self-care.
You have to just do it.
And that really means for me, itmeans just slowing down and you
get as much done at the end ofthe day.
And I feel really fulfilledbecause I'm in it.
I'm living my life.
SPEAKER_00 (27:43):
Yeah, you know, I think that's one of the gifts
the pandemic has brought us,even though it's been such a
challenging time in so manydifferent ways.
I think it's almost forced us,if we haven't slowed down, to
slow down.
And it really has made thingsclear on what's important in our
lives, the people that areimportant in our lives, and the
(28:04):
things that we really reach outto do.
You mentioned therapy.
that you had been going totherapy throughout your life.
Is that something that you stillcontinue to do?
And if so, what are the benefitsfor you?
Well,
SPEAKER_01 (28:20):
first of all, I found an amazing therapist in LA
who I will not let go of.
She moved to Sonoma and I movedto Atlanta.
So we FaceTime and I try toFaceTime with her.
I used to do it a lot moreregularly, especially on tour,
but I FaceTime with her twice amonth now.
And it's honestly for me just tocheck in And I like having
(28:41):
someone outside of my world whocan weigh in on situations and
just give me an outsideperspective.
So she's become a friend in away, but I look forward to
talking to her.
So she's been with me throughvery hard times and she's now
sort of celebrating with me inthe space that I'm in and we
know it won't last forever.
So it's just nice having thatLike the moment I start telling
(29:06):
her what I'm going through, Ialready see what I need to do.
It's having that person who Ican, it's almost like as I speak
to her, I'm like, oh, I justneed to call my mom.
You know what I mean?
I need more time by myself orwhatever it is.
But it's during that time withher that I come to understand
what's missing or what'soverflowing my cup or whatever
(29:28):
it is.
SPEAKER_00 (29:30):
When you mentioned one thing that is actually
pretty common among musicians,which is getting nervous on
stage and also having panicattacks.
Is there anything that youlearned in therapy to help with
the panic attacks?
SPEAKER_01 (29:45):
That's a good question.
My panic attacks are sounexpected that I feel like I
think that I learned in therapyis that rituals for me are
really important.
So things like meditation everyday.
Those are things that stop mefrom getting overwhelmed and
that can lead to panic attacks.
So it's harder on tour becauseit's busy.
(30:08):
But yeah, I have to find timefor myself every day.
And it's just 20 minutes.
It's not a big deal.
But as a mother and an artist,that 20 minutes actually seems
impossible some days.
You're like, I don't know howwe're going to do this.
But if it means waking upearlier or taking a minute...
There are moments when all theguys are in the band and
(30:28):
everyone's pouring that firstglass of wine for the night.
We're all about to sit down.
Will is asleep.
And I'm like, you know what?
I'm going to go take that 20minutes for myself before we all
hang out.
And it's just taking that time.
SPEAKER_00 (30:41):
You know, you mentioned Mac Miller.
And I know you've donecharitable things for the Mac
Miller Fund.
Losing him as a friend, how didthat affect you?
SPEAKER_01 (30:54):
I mean, it was so sudden.
I've actually lost a lot offriends in my life, which is
weird.
When I was living in New York, alot of friends passed away,
mostly from drug use.
But it hit harder with himbecause we were just texting and
we were just planning on himmeeting Willa.
And there was just a soulconnection there.
(31:16):
It was really hard.
And actually, from the momentthat I found out he passed away,
I wrote a song called BrokenAngel, which we put out.
And I honestly felt like hewrote that song.
It was weird.
I was just at the piano and Idon't remember writing it.
It was a crazy thing.
And I remember calling his mom,who I love and I'm very close
(31:37):
to.
And for some reason, he issomeone who's passed away that I
still can't understand it.
But of anyone, because we havehis music, there's like this...
this way that he feels closealways.
And it's, yeah, it's definitelya tragedy.
It really is.
It's very sad.
SPEAKER_00 (31:56):
Yeah, that's actually one of the reasons why
I started the podcast is we'relosing these musicians that
bring us so much joy and they'reliving the world in so much pain
or, you know, when addiction hasovertaken them, it's just, it's
heartbreaking.
And I want to see people liveand Have us all enjoy all this
(32:18):
wonderful music.
SPEAKER_01 (32:19):
I think that creativity, a lot of it, the
source is pain.
You know what I mean?
So you dig into that.
It can hurt.
It can be hard to live in that.
A lot of people I know that arecreative, yeah, there's a lot of
pain there.
And that's where we write.
That's where we go to, to write.
And I feel lucky because a songlike Shout, I got to release
that.
I really genuinely felt arelease.
(32:41):
But yeah, it's unescapable forsome people, you know?
SPEAKER_00 (32:45):
Well, one thing that I really appreciate and admire
is that you've been doing somuch charitable work and
speaking out and taking actionon social and political topics
like Campaign Zero, where youtalk about ending police
brutality.
You talk about fighting votersuppression.
WearOrange.com, which is takingaction against gun violence,
(33:09):
which is really wonderful.
What is it?
that has made you want toparticipate in so many
charitable and social politicalevents of the recent year?
Oh
SPEAKER_01 (33:24):
my God.
I mean, this year has opened upso many doors and windows and
it's just brought so much stuffto light that obviously has been
going on, but it's at theforefront.
Of what's happening right now.
I feel like as a musician, we'regiven a platform where we can
bring things into light, or wecan just focus on our music and
our band is very, we find itreally important to intertwine
(33:48):
the two, you know, and if we canget other people and fans to get
involved, then why not?
Why not use our platform to dothat?
SPEAKER_00 (33:56):
I mean, I feel like you've been really busy during
this time.
I've seen so much that you'vebeen doing online, fundraisers,
and now that you have thisalbum, what are your plans to
promote it?
You know, the vaccine is out, sohopefully things will change
soon, but everything is stillvery unpredictable.
(34:16):
How do you plan on promotingthis album?
SPEAKER_01 (34:19):
Well, we are doing a monthly live stream called This
Is This Moment through MomentHouse, where we're going to be
playing a lot of these songs.
We just did our first one lastThursday, which was the night
before the album dropped.
We played the entire album frontto back, which was really fun.
But we're really just creatingthis space where our fans can
come and experience differentshows with us.
(34:42):
We're going to do some wildstuff there.
I'm going to build this entireinstallation and make a bunch of
outfits for us.
I just want it to be somethingpeople have never experienced
and also give us an opportunityto play with ideas.
It's a crazy time.
We're going to be doing a lot oflive streams, a lot of Zooms, a
lot of interviews, and a lot ofmusic videos.
(35:02):
It's a lot of screen time, butit's the way to share the album.
The feedback has beenoverwhelming.
It really has.
It's been pretty beautiful.
So let's keep that up.
SPEAKER_00 (35:13):
Well, you know what?
I was at the one last Thursdayand I really loved not only the
performances, but there's aspecial interaction that you
have with your fans.
And I think the great thingabout these live streams is
there is a way to interact,which is different than a live
show and in some ways moreintimate because you Fans are
(35:35):
asking you questions andlistening to you in real time.
So that is really cool.
SPEAKER_01 (35:41):
It's really cool.
That was one thing at thebeginning of the pandemic doing
the Insta Lives that I reallyenjoyed was just being able to
get to know our fans on such apersonal level.
We would invite them in so we'dsee their face and we'd all talk
and we'd play a song that theyrequested.
I mean, we have the coolest fansever and it's pretty amazing.
(36:02):
So we owe everything to them andJust they're constant
supporters.
Like I want them to come overand hang out, you know.
But we also have so many insaneartists.
They send in artwork and songsthey've been writing.
And it's just a beautiful thing.
It's become less of like bandfans and more of a community,
group love community, which Ilove.
SPEAKER_00 (36:24):
Well, the band's name also just brings everybody
together, right?
UNKNOWN (36:28):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (36:29):
Well, one thing I think is really interesting is
that you actually started out asan artist painting and you've
done some gallery shows.
But to incorporate all of thatinto your live show and you were
talking about the costumes andthe artwork on your albums.
I just really love that.
SPEAKER_01 (36:48):
Thank you.
It's a blast because being anartist, I think most people that
are singers or painters, you'dbe surprised how being creative
can stretch into so manydifferent mediums.
It doesn't have to define youinto one.
And I actually feel reallyliberated that I can write a
song.
And while I'm in the studio withthe guys, I can be painting a
painting that might end up beingour next album cover.
(37:09):
And there's this beautiful thingwhere it's all connected.
And I love that part.
SPEAKER_00 (37:15):
Yeah, it is really beautiful.
Hannah, is there anything elsethat you would like to say about
mental health or about yourband, Group Love?
SPEAKER_01 (37:26):
I would say if you're dealing with something
and you're in pain or you'regoing through a hard time,
please know that we all are aswell.
Everyone in the band has theirown issues and things that they
deal with that are pretty heavy.
We lean on each other and wetalk about it.
This should be normalized.
Everyone...
(37:46):
in the entire world goes throughit, whether it's for a long time
or a short period.
And we all need to talk aboutit, normalize it, listen to each
other, ask for help when it's atthat point, but way before that
point, actually.
And know that it's okay, andyou're going to be okay.
And it's okay to be not okay.
SPEAKER_00 (38:05):
Thank you so much for taking part in normalizing
the conversation.
You know what happens when youtake part in our mission?
And also providing solutions onall of these great things that
you have in your mental healthtoolkit.
But you become a superhero.
Yay! You become a check yourhead superhero, which, you know,
(38:26):
just reminds you every day thatyou are a superhero.
I love that.
Next, we have clinical casemanager Holly Lincoln and
executive director HilaryGleason, both co-founders of
Backline, a nonprofit dedicatedto connecting those in the music
industry and their family withmental health resources and also
(38:49):
recovery programs for substanceabuse.
Let's start with Hilary Gleason,who shares the story behind how
Backline first started and howeasy it is to use their
services.
SPEAKER_01 (39:02):
Backline is a nonprofit that connects the
music industry with mentalhealth and wellness resources.
We launched in October of 2019,recognizing that a bridge was
needed between the musicindustry and the mental health
care space.
When we launched it, the musicindustry was primarily in a
(39:25):
touring state of affairs.
And so it could be extra hard tofind help that was willing to
work around the crazy scheduleassociated with life on the
road.
We take pride in providingclinical and appropriate
resources for a lifestyle thatcan be really hard to
(39:47):
understand.
And we do that through our casemanagement program, which
provides individualized supportto music industry professionals
and their family members.
That's for people looking for atherapist or guidance on how to
get into a treatment center,more support group, or maybe
they don't know what they'relooking for, but they know that
(40:08):
they need to get started ontheir mental health journey.
They can connect with one of ourcase managers and we walk
through that process with themwith a quick assessment where we
talk about whether or not theyhave insurance or the ability to
pay.
I
SPEAKER_00 (40:20):
feel like the whole connection that you provide
musicians is so importantbecause I It's hard enough to
have a mood disorder, but whenyou're in the midst of it, you
can be so exhausted and you canfeel so hopeless that even doing
the research and finding outwhat's best for you is a lot of
(40:41):
work.
So just to be able to make asimple call to you and a contact
back line and to have you dosome of the legwork and pair
somebody up with the rightperson is so important.
But I was wondering, there's somany different organizations
that you could have each beeninvolved with.
What experience in your own lifehas made you want to participate
(41:02):
in Backline?
SPEAKER_01 (41:04):
We all were called to action following the loss of
two of our community members tosuicide in the summer of 2019.
And they were both incrediblemusicians and wonderful people.
And Their losses really broughtour community together to start
(41:24):
asking some of the hardquestions around how we can take
better care of one another andalso where the gaps were and how
we could make it so that peopleweren't continuing to fall
through the cracks.
And so we started a series ofcalls to have those
conversations with artists andtour managers and agents and
(41:46):
promoters and really the wholespectrum of the music industry.
And those conversations were soraw and real.
And we were talking about thingslike when someone in your band
has struggled with substanceabuse or mental health, what
does that look like?
Where did you turn?
Where did you go?
And the answers were all overthe place.
(42:07):
Many of them were running aGoogle search or picking up the
phone and calling someone andsaying, hey, I know you have a
therapist.
Do you think that they would bea good fit for me?
Any role in the music industrycan make it hard to pick up the
phone and say that you'restruggling, to know who to turn
to and who you can trust.
And so it became clear that someof the cracks that existed were
(42:30):
just that there wasn't a privatesafe, clinical place to go and
escalate some of thosequestions.
So that's really what we builtBackline around using Hallie's
experience as a therapist.
And also our clinical director,Zach Borer is a therapist that
works in LA and his privatepractice focuses specifically on
(42:52):
people in the music industry.
So they're really bringing theclinical lens to it.
I'm bringing this nonprofit andaccess to healthcare lens.
So our combination of skills hasmade it possible for us to build
this organization that is verymuch rooted in the music
industry, but also clinicallyfocused.
And we put a huge emphasis onour clinical programs because
(43:15):
that is what sets us apart.
SPEAKER_00 (43:17):
You know, I did the interview with Hannah Hooper of
Group Love.
And one thing that she mentionedwas, knowing other musicians who
have fallen into addiction orhave gotten into a crisis with
mood disorders, and some of themhave lost their lives.
If you are a musician and yousee that someone may be in need
(43:38):
of help, how would you bestapproach that?
SPEAKER_02 (43:41):
I do often get calls from whether or not it's
someone's family member or adifferent person in the band
seeing that someone on theircrew or a different part of
their band is having a difficulttime can reach out on their
behalf.
Oftentimes, it's incrediblydifficult to find the time to
just pick up the phone and makesome sort of an ask.
And so Backline is there reallyto do some of that hand-holding.
(44:04):
Because if you're really, reallystruggling, navigating the
insurance system and navigatingfinding a therapist is
incredibly overwhelming.
One way that I would definitelyrecommend helping their loved
ones that they're seeing sufferis by reaching out to us and
having us do some of that workfor them and help them through
it.
And then also really trying tocheck in with the people that
(44:26):
you're with every day.
If you see someone struggling,there's a very clear reason for
it.
So just trying to show up in anypossible way that you can
support someone, that can makeall the difference too.
There's definitely a dominoeffect.
There's this huge stigma aroundaddressing substance use
disorders or any sort of mentalhealth thing that can arise with
(44:47):
people.
And since it is so common in themusic industry, just trying to
break down some of thosebarriers around whether or not
we can actually talk about thesethings can make such a big
difference.
SPEAKER_01 (44:59):
It's become easier, actually, since the onset of the
pandemic to lean into thoseconversations.
You know, we have all struggledover the past year with
isolation and loss of socialinteraction.
And so it's become easier totalk about those things.
And something that we encourageis even if, you're not sure how
(45:21):
to approach it, you can justsay, hey, I'm with you and I'm
holding space for you if youever need to talk.
That can make someone feel likeyou've made yourself available
to them and that can make adifference.
The other thing that we'rehearing within the music
industry is just the fact thatBackline exists gives people an
opportunity to talk about thesethings just to say, hey, have
(45:45):
you thought about checking outBackline?
Or I saw this thing over onBackline about anxiety or about
breath work and using that as anintro, you know, leaning on us
as I saw this on social mediaand it can be as simple as a DM
just to get the conversationgoing in a way that is sort of
(46:05):
natural and organic.
SPEAKER_00 (46:08):
That's good advice because sometimes conversations
like that might get awkward ifit's too direct.
But sometimes just offering yourcare, your concern, and your
suggestions on things that aremaking your life better can come
off a lot better than, let'ssay, a more hard-hitting
(46:29):
conversation about someone'saddiction.
It may not be received as well.
So, you know, the pandemic,things are starting to open up.
Live music is starting to comeback, which is really exciting
for everybody.
But I was wondering, what aresome of the common mental health
challenges that you see withmusicians and crew while they're
(46:51):
on tour?
SPEAKER_02 (46:52):
For the most part, it's depression and anxiety.
Often substance use is asecondhand sort of symptom of
depression or unprocessed traumaor something like that.
The number one ask is peoplelooking to be connected with
therapists.
Our numbers are overwhelming inthat way.
People are definitely looking toget into therapy.
(47:12):
And for the most part, it's formanaging depression and anxiety.
Given very unique stressors andlack of connection with your
partner, if you're touring,attachment issues that can come
up, performance anxiety, youknow, constantly being under the
scrutiny of numbers, numbers,and then people being receptive
to your music or buying ticketsor that type of thing.
(47:34):
you're constantly under themicroscope.
And I think that for anyone,whether or not it's your passion
or not, it still has a hugeimpact on one's mental health,
just constantly being held to astandard that you don't always
feel as though you can meet.
During the pandemic, there'sbeen such an amazing effort.
People have taken this time asthey've come off the road to
really focus on how they canbetter themselves mentally,
(47:59):
general wellness, nutrition oryoga or meditation or whatever
it might be.
kind of a blessing that's comeout of the pandemic is people
have had the chance to really dosome self-reflection.
I
SPEAKER_00 (48:11):
mean, there definitely have been benefits to
having more time alone.
I know that a lot of great musicis coming out of the pandemic,
but at the same time, it's atime where everyone's had to
change their lifestyle,especially musicians with
touring and being able to dolive music gigs.
It's been a real toll on theirmental health.
(48:32):
But one thing I talked aboutwith Hannah Hooper of Group Love
was about self-care.
And, you know, you probably haveheard different things that
different bands or crews do forself-care while they're on tour.
What are some suggestions orthings that you have heard that
have worked to improve mentalhealth among, you know, a
(48:55):
touring crew?
SPEAKER_01 (48:57):
A lot of bands use the app Master Tour for their
calendars on the road.
And so inputting into MasterTour, the yoga studios that are
around, the juice bars, placesto get healthy organic food,
parks, walks, things like that.
I've seen some really creativeways that people have said, day
(49:20):
off in Kansas City, here aresome nature parks, yoga studios,
things that you can do with thattime.
Really encouraging people tofind that hour of the day that
is theirs, that they can use,whether that is meditating,
reading, doing something that isreally just for them.
(49:41):
Touring, you don't have a lot ofalone time.
And so you have to be proactiveabout finding that and building
that into your schedule.
I know people that bring bikeswith them in the trailer and
they bike every day on the road,bringing a yoga mat or
downloading a self-help book asan audio book before you go out.
(50:02):
I mean, there's so manydifferent things.
And we always say withinBackline that mental health and
wellness are not one size fitsall.
So what works for me might notbe the right thing for you, but
we do know that mindfulness is areally important part of both
mental health and wellness.
And so being mindful about whatyou put into your body, whether
(50:24):
that is food or substances, andhow you might feel that day or
the next day based on what youhave put into your body is one
way that you can be mindful.
Another way is, have I had anyalone time today?
No?
Okay, can I prioritize that fortomorrow?
Have I done any movement,whether that is walking or
(50:44):
hitting a gym or an exerciseclass?
Many many gyms will give you afree day pass.
So I know some people that putthose into master tour as well.
I think people just need to bemindful of what works for them
and what's going to make themfeel the best that they can be.
Really what we're trying toencourage is for all of us to be
able to show up happy andhealthy to work.
(51:06):
And that is going to be adifferent formula for everyone.
So trying to dive into whatmakes you feel great is a big
part of the process.
SPEAKER_02 (51:15):
And just to piggyback off of that, it's just
so important right now if you'vegotten into some sort of
self-care routine to reallythink about before you go back
out on the road, before thingsget hectic, really thinking
about what's worked for you,what hasn't, and trying to be
mindful and conscientious tomaintain that routine as you're
getting back out on the road.
(51:35):
Because Getting back on a tourbus or back into hotels, all
those things can go out thewindow if we're not very, very
conscious about implementingthem, just trying to stick with
the routine and know that asyou're going back into a
different environment, how youcan incorporate it there.
SPEAKER_00 (51:50):
Well, you know, you said one thing about routine.
And the thing is, is thatsometimes with creative people,
they're not necessarily routineorientated.
And I know for myself, I've hadto be really, really conscious
about keeping routines, becausethat is so important to mental
health, whether it's making sureyou incorporate exercise, you
(52:13):
know, good nutrition, and sleepis really important.
I mean, it took me a while toget a sleep schedule down so
that my body can heal and repairduring that time.
And I could see how that is ahuge obstacle while you're on
tour because it's late nightsand four buses where some people
(52:34):
might want to stay and socializeall night and some people just
want to go to sleep.
So having to navigate throughthat
SPEAKER_01 (52:44):
I think being honest with yourself and others about
your intentions is a reallyhelpful step in this.
So if you have been reallyfocused on nutrition or movement
or meditation or going into thetour, letting people know that
that's something that you wantto continue to do.
And I know a lot of people thatbuddy up on tours.
(53:06):
Hey, it seems like we're goinginto this tour and we both want
to be working on fitness ortrying to get more sleep or
calling home more often,whatever that thing is that you
can find accountability on.
That's a really awesome way toget farther.
in what you're trying to do.
There's a great African proverbthat says, if you want to go
(53:29):
fast, go alone.
If you want to go far, gotogether.
I think that's something that weshould all be looking to is a
community of people that you canlean on.
SPEAKER_00 (53:38):
Yeah, that kind of reminds me.
We had an interview with SammyDahl, and she's part of a band
called IMX.
And they are all making mentalhealth a priority for their band
and their crew.
And Support groups are so goodto have.
I've been in support groups.
I've led support groups.
And they have one amongst theircrew where people can vent.
(54:03):
They could voice things liketheir goals for the tour.
They could partner up with otherpeople.
And that would be somethingwonderful to not only bring the
crew together, but also makingmental health a priority.
But speaking about supportgroups, can you tell me the
advantage of a musician comingto an online support group with
(54:24):
Backlined versus, let's say, aregular local support group?
SPEAKER_02 (54:30):
Absolutely.
We launched the support groups.
Gosh, it was like the third weekof March when the pandemic hit
in 2020.
And, you know, recognize thatpeople's lives that were so go,
go, go and often out on tourjust completely came to a dead
stop.
And the whole world sort of feltlike it was just being turned on
its head.
So we quickly launched thosegroups with some licensed
(54:52):
clinicians who work withindustry professionals.
And the one thing that I'vereally seen be so beneficial for
people is to come together withnot only having the therapists
who understand the lifestyle,but also really connecting with
people who have gone throughsimilar experiences.
This has been an amazing thingfor people to be able to really
(55:15):
connect see that they're notalone in it and that other
people have gone through some ofthe same things as they have.
With these like-minded folkscoming together, there's been
some amazing networking that'shappened, people sort of
sharing, this is what I've beendoing this week to keep me from
falling into a deeper part of mydepression.
I'm just fostering that sense ofcommunity that has been lost.
(55:35):
You're often surrounded bypeople the family that you've
made out on the road or in thevenue that you work at.
And so to have that completelyripped away from people, I think
there was a very deep sense ofaloneness and isolation.
And so just to be able to checkin with folks for an hour, an
hour and a half a week has beenreally amazing to see how it's
(55:56):
been helpful for folks.
SPEAKER_00 (55:58):
And it's also a really great example of how you
connect with people who not onlywithin the United States, but
all over the world and findingthose commonalities and sharing
those experiences and stories.
And also online, you have theability to be anonymous, right?
And sometimes musicians do wantto protect their anonymity and
(56:20):
you can do that online.
SPEAKER_02 (56:23):
I'm glad you brought that up because only are they
easy to access.
They are free.
for some folks who don't havehealth insurance or can't get
into therapy right now becausethey can't afford it.
This is something that they cantap into anytime for no cost.
And you're right that somepeople want to just come on and
put themselves on mute, keeptheir cameras off and just
listen.
SPEAKER_00 (56:42):
Yeah, that's true.
And I think that's one greatthing about support groups is
that there's no pressure toparticipate if you don't feel
like participating.
Because sometimes, like I said,I've been through depression and
anxiety.
When you're in it, you may feelso disconnected that you just
kind of want to check things outand get to a point where you can
(57:04):
trust the whole process.
Well, thank you so much, Hollyand Hillary.
Speaking more about BathLine, Isthere anything else that you
would like to say about mentalhealth in general or about
Backline?
SPEAKER_01 (57:17):
We are just so excited to be destigmatizing
this topic.
It's something that everyonestruggles with at some point or
another.
And so really to have theopportunity to come on and meet
you and be a part of the podcastis a huge part of our work, just
to say, This is normal, and thisis something we all go through,
and if you need a little bit ofhelp on the way, there are ways
(57:38):
to get that.
So please reach out if you're inneed or if you want to be a part
of the solution.
There's ways that we can put youto work on that side of things,
too.
A
SPEAKER_00 (57:49):
big thank you to our musical guest, Hannah Hooper of
Group Love, and our experts,Hilary Gleason and Holly Lincoln
from Backline.
We'll be closing the episodewith a clip from Group Love's
single, Deadline, so stay tunedfor that.
For more information on GroupLove, their album This Is This,
and their upcoming tour inSeptember of 2021, visit
(58:10):
grouplovemusic.com.
Follow Group Love on theirsocials, at grouplove.
And for more information onBackline, visit backline.org.
So until next time, be brave.
Ask for help and be persistentin finding the mental health
that you need.
SPEAKER_01 (58:31):
I'm alive, I'm alive, I'm alive and lost cause
you got me always thinkingabout.
UNKNOWN (58:46):
Everybody's got a place they like to hide.
SPEAKER_02 (58:53):
I'm gonna
SPEAKER_01 (59:04):
smash my face in the cake and sell it
SPEAKER_00 (59:10):
Check Your Head Podcast is kindly supported and
partnered with Sweet ReliefMusicians Fund, DBSA San Gabriel
Valley, Ear Shop Media, andLemon Tree Studios in Los
Angeles.
Visit checkyourheadpodcast.comwhere we have over 100 solutions
for mental health.
Be our friends on social mediaat Check Your Head Podcast.
(59:31):
Watch us on YouTube and supportus with a kind donation on
checkyourheadpodcast.com.
Check Your Head podcast issponsored by a 501c3 nonprofit
with all donations being taxdeductible.
Thank you for your support andthank you for listening.
Welcome to the Check Your Head podcast, the podcast
where notable musicians andexperts come and share their
stories and solutions for mentalhealth and wellness.
I'm your host, Mari Fong, amusic journalist and life coach
for musicians.
And I'm excited because we arecelebrating Mental Health
(00:21):
Awareness Month for the month ofMay.
And on May 20th, we'recelebrating Mental Health Action
Day with our partners at MTVEntertainment Group, Sweet
Relief Musicians Fund and manymore.
So here at the Check Your Headpodcast, every day is Mental
Health Action Day with storiesfocused on solutions for
recovery and our website atcheckyourheadpodcast.com
(00:44):
featuring over 100organizations, nonprofits, apps,
and more for you to take actionon.
But in honor of Mental HealthAwareness Month, I'm going to
focus on one thing that is afoundation for good mental
health and is something thatmany of us take for granted.
But that key ingredient issleep.
Sleep.
(01:05):
A good night's sleep heals usboth mentally and physically.
A good night's sleep allows usto wake up refreshed and
recharged for the day, while abad night's sleep can make us
feel grumpy or depressed andgive us physical symptoms like
headaches or where you can'tthink straight or work properly.
Sleep can be a challenge with amusician's lifestyle.
(01:27):
There's late night gigs,Partying and socializing to the
wee hours.
And if you're an up-and-comingband, you may have to get up
early for that day job.
And if you're on tour, you maybe sleeping on a noisy bus or
van with a bunch of othermusicians.
Not the best lifestyle forgetting good sleep.
So my challenge for you is, whataction will you take to help
(01:49):
ensure you get the best possiblenight's sleep every night?
For me, I admit that in thepast, I wasn't mindful of my
sleep.
I kept a nightlight on, playedon my phone before bed, maybe I
was socializing and I had acouple drinks, and I had no
sleep routine because I thoughtsleep was just something that
happened.
(02:10):
But when you have a mooddisorder, like depression or
anxiety, your sleep does suffer,and there's definitely a link
between getting a good night'ssleep and good mental health.
So what changes have I made?
Now my sleep routine includesdoing some hard exercise in the
morning.
And when it's time for sleep, Iprepare for it.
I try to sleep at around thesame time at night and wake up
(02:32):
eight hours or more later.
I use the sleep mask, earplugs.
I have a cool temperature in thebedroom.
And before bedtime, no drinkingalcohol or using electronics.
Do I do this every night?
No.
But I try to.
Sometimes I slip up.
But I found that doing thesethings over time has really
(02:53):
improved my sleep quality and mymental and physical well-being.
So my challenge is, what actionwill you be taking this month to
improve your sleep?
Let us know on our socials atCheckYourHeadPodcast.
Now to our featured guests.
Today, I'm thrilled to talk withthe singer of a band that
(03:13):
dropped an album, Healer, in2020 and just dropped a surprise
album on March of 2021 calledThis Is This.
They are the first band in theUS to be certified climate
positive by the United Nationsand has been busy during the
pandemic raising funds forimportant causes like Campaign
Zero to end police brutality,the Ally Coalition for LGBTQ
(03:38):
Youth, and the Mac Miller Fundthat assists musicians in
substance abuse recovery.
Our musical guest today isHannah Hooper from Group Love,
who shares her story of stagefright and finding self-love and
empowerment.
Hannah also talks about herfriend Mac Miller and how she
felt he co-wrote the song BrokenAngel with her after his
(04:01):
passing.
I'll be playing a clip fromgroup love single Deadline from
their new album This Is This, sostay tuned for that.
Next, I talk with experts fromthe nonprofit Backline, an
organization that connects thosein the music industry with
therapists, support groups, andmental health resources.
(04:21):
We have co-founders HollyLincoln and Hilary Gleason talk
about the lifestyle and demandsof musicians that can sometimes
sabotage good mental health andhow their services can easily
assist those in the industry.
But first, let's hear HannahHooper of Group Love share her
story.
You dropped a surprise albumcalled This Is This, and the
(04:45):
first single is Deadline, so bigcongrats on that.
Thank you.
Listen to the whole album, and Idescribe it in three adjectives,
although there's so many morethat I could think of.
But I feel like it's fun, it'sdreamy, it's avant-garde, but
it's really a great album tovent to.
SPEAKER_01 (05:04):
Yeah, that was the point.
I mean, that's honestly why wemade it.
We made it for our own need tovent during this time.
And the response we've gotten inthe last few days has been
exactly what we were talkingabout before, but the more
honest you are, the morevulnerable we are, the more
people are responding to it.
And I think this is honestly atestament to that.
SPEAKER_00 (05:26):
Yeah, I loved all the songs, but there was one
song in particular that wasdeeper, a little bit darker.
It's called Shout.
And some of the lyrics include,"'I cover up my wounds, always
with my sleeves,"'I'm black andblue and green and everything in
between.'" I hide behind myfriends so no one really sees.
(05:49):
You are not alone.
What was your intention behindwriting this song?
Oh
SPEAKER_01 (05:56):
my gosh.
I mean, that song came out ofjust so much work I've been
doing on myself, really.
And the idea that all my woundsand all my pain and stuff is
actually beautiful and issomething that needs to be
shared.
And this album for me, likelearning to sing that way,
Learning to scream with my bandand learning to, I mean, I cried
(06:19):
a lot recording that song.
I think there's been this partof me, this, my whole life that
I've been sort of ashamed of orunable to get in touch with.
And she's more aggressive andshe's in pain and she's scared
and she's been in places thathave been uncomfortable.
And I've definitely in my lifebeen hard on myself.
(06:40):
I honestly felt a pretty seriousrelease when the song was
written.
It was like a healing thathappened really quickly.
It's like I've been in therapymy whole life, but it took
writing the song to actually puteverything I've been working on
together in one moment andrelease it.
Yeah, every time I perform thatsong, I can attach myself to the
(07:01):
feeling before writing the songand then who I am now after
writing the song.
And it's crazy how certainevents in your life can...
change you and writing this andbeing so free in a room with my
band they honestly came in inthe moment and they started
singing you are not alone youare not alone it was this whole
cathartic experience for all ofus and so this song it took
(07:24):
shape in a really beautiful wayat a really important point for
me
SPEAKER_00 (07:27):
well you know what i completely felt that And I can
see you performing this live andeverybody just shouting that and
just having that same catharticfeeling of letting go and just
dropping maybe the shame or theguilt or whatever it is that
we're carrying that maybe has nouse for us anymore.
(07:49):
And, you know, to get lighter.
SPEAKER_01 (07:51):
That's the goal.
I mean, inevitably our goal is,or my goal is to, to be happy,
you know, whatever that means.
It's not in the cheesy, like, Iwant to be happy, but it's like
life is the purpose for me is tofind happiness.
And that's always evolving andchanging.
Starting at a really young age,I always felt I was battling
(08:12):
that somehow.
And there were so many differentreasons.
I think just going throughpuberty is a crazy experience as
a woman, learning to loveyourself, love your body, love
who you are, feel comfortablefinding friends.
exploring my artistry todiscover who I really am.
There are so many stages inlearning to love myself, right?
(08:33):
It's crazy now as a mother in aband, I really feel like I've
taken this new step of gettingto know myself and learning to
love this person as a whole andnot in pieces, not in separate
compartmentalizing like, oh,this part of me is better than
this part of me.
Loving all of me has really beena huge thing.
(08:53):
And now Here I
SPEAKER_00 (08:55):
am.
There you are.
It's funny how we can be so openand loving to other people and
nonjudgmental, but oftentimes wejudge ourselves and really go
hard on ourselves.
And one thing that stood outwhen you were talking is the
feelings of shame.
And we all grew up with thingsthat we're embarrassed about or
(09:17):
feel shameful about.
Is there something in particularthat really haunted you from the
past?
SPEAKER_01 (09:25):
I don't know if it was anything specific.
I was honestly hard on myself onso many levels.
It was kind of crazy.
I feel like I had a brother anda sister who, like, they were
perfect in so many ways.
They were like straight-Astudents.
They were star athletes.
They were beautiful.
They were physically fit.
Just the whole thing.
And I was the middle child andfelt like my grades were kind of
(09:48):
lower.
I was chubby.
I was always drawing by myself.
I just felt like I didn'thave...
the thing they had.
So from a very young age, I feltdifferent.
And I feel like if they werelistening to this, they're like,
what are you talking about,Hannah?
You were funny.
But there was a person who I wasin my house with my family.
And then there was the person Iwas outside my house.
So I was just insecure.
(10:08):
I really didn't know how to lovemyself for who I am.
And I was always looking tochange myself, whether it was in
my style or becoming thinneror...
Actually, there's a memory inhigh school, I was put on
Adderall for...
attention, whatever reasons theythought.
I remember it changing me soquickly.
(10:28):
Like it changed my body.
It changed my grades.
It changed the way I connectedto people and not in a positive
way.
Honestly, the outcome of takingthat medication for a very long
time really messed me up for along time.
It's like, there's a quick fixto things.
You know what I mean?
And so on the outside, peoplethought I'd found this quick
fix, but actually what it wasdoing was making me further and
(10:51):
further away from myself.
I was basically on anamphetamine for years that I
thought was helping me.
And it was taking me away frommyself in a lot of ways.
I have this memory of being inNew York and getting off it and
having the world sort of sloweddown for a minute.
And I was really starting topaint things that I believed in
and I was writing things that Iunderstood.
(11:12):
And it was like, I was back.
I came out of this super sped upworld that I'd been living in.
And it was an interestingexperience.
It was the beginning ofsomething.
I don't know.
That was like a big thing for meto learn how to love myself
without a medication.
SPEAKER_00 (11:27):
You know, that's really interesting.
How long were you on Adderall?
Probably 10 years.
10 years.
Yeah.
Okay.
And then after you got off ofit, it sounds like you were able
to feel more of your emotions.
Definitely.
It kind of does sound like youstarted to blossom, just kind of
rediscovering yourself.
SPEAKER_01 (11:47):
Yeah.
I mean- I felt like I had thissecret thing that I'd been
taking that was giving me moreenergy and giving me the ability
to do more than I was, but Iwasn't actually doing it.
It wasn't like I was in my bodywhen I was on Adderall, if this
makes sense.
So when I got off it, I wasreconnecting to myself in more
of a complete state.
It was this beautiful momentwhere I was like, I mean, I am
(12:11):
enough.
I'm enough now.
I don't need something to helpme.
I can slow down.
I can focus.
I can do this.
Actually, that's what'sinteresting.
That's what makes me unique isthat I am easily distracted and
I pull all these thingstogether.
And that's actually how I createart.
So the moment I stopped, Ireally started becoming in touch
with who I am as an artist, myown unique voice.
(12:33):
That's when I really startedlooking into that and that
direction.
And it was, yeah, it wasimportant.
SPEAKER_00 (12:40):
You talked about the song Shout, and I did feel like
just raw vulnerability in thatsong, different from the others
on the album.
And so whatever was going onwith you, you know, I really did
feel that.
But you did mention a few thingsabout your past.
(13:00):
You mentioned possibly havingsome ADHD symptoms because of
the Adderall.
When you look back, how hasmental health changed affected
you personally with mooddisorders, depression, anxiety,
anything like that?
SPEAKER_01 (13:17):
I mean, I had it all.
I think that the biggest part ofmy journey with mental health
was being in this band becausethere's no hiding when you're in
a band.
You're surrounded by peopleconstantly.
You have to go on stage.
So you're in front of strangers.
I mean, I was very insecure.
I had to face a lot of my demonspersonally.
right away because I had reallybad stage fright, which was the
(13:39):
first thing I had to conquer.
We were going on stage no matterwhat.
Our first album, when we droppedit, had a lot of momentum.
So our audience was gettingbigger and bigger and we were
playing more and more shows.
Along with that came a lot oflike, wow, who am I going to be
on stage?
Do I want to be this girl thatis insecure about my body?
Do I want to represent that forother women?
(14:01):
I need to learn to love thisperson now.
And I honestly started dressingthe part.
I started wearing cat suits andloving my body and loving my
shape and throwing my bodyaround on stage.
As people started loving theband, I almost had to create
this person that I loved andthen I stepped into her because
(14:21):
it was so much change all atonce.
And I knew that I wanted to be apositive image for other women.
And To do that took, honestly,it just took a lot of balls.
I was like, I need to createthis person.
I need to step into her.
And so that's what I did.
SPEAKER_00 (14:38):
Talking with a lot of musicians, a lot of them grew
up introverted and shy.
And to get up on stage, oh mygosh.
So it's almost like you stepinto a persona or a character
that you create.
And then I read that you alsoused to wear a mask during your
shows.
Because those...
(14:59):
Kind of hiding
SPEAKER_01 (15:00):
a little bit.
A little bit.
I mean, that's exactly what itwas.
I was hiding and I really wastrying to figure out how to
just, the craziest thing is allalong I was like, I know that
there is this moment, there hasto be this moment where this
discomfort breaks.
I'm not saying it's gone now,but there's a way like I look
forward to going on stagebecause I get to feel that
(15:20):
superhero version of me, whichis really exciting to be able to
tap into that because, you know,we all have that person in us.
The more I learned to lovemyself, the more I was surprised
at what I was doing.
The more I was like, oh my God,I'm telling people to get their
hands up on stage.
I'm jumping into the audience.
I'm in a cat suit.
I'm writing music with myhusband and my band.
(15:40):
I'm doing all these things.
If you'd gone back even just afew years, I would have been
terrified to do any of them.
Part of it was that I just hadno choice and I had to keep
doing it.
So there's something in stayingactive, continuing to do it
every day.
Things become less scary.
It wasn't just all of a suddenovernight, like one show I was
scared and the next show Iwasn't.
But I have a memory of being inBerlin and we couldn't find my
(16:05):
mask.
And I actually had just read awrite-up of a show before where
someone was like, oh, I thinkthat the girl in the band maybe
has burns on her face orsomething because she's hiding
under a mask.
Oh, okay, yeah, maybe it's timeto take the mask off.
And then the next show wecouldn't find it.
I secretly feel like my drummerat the time hid it, but we
couldn't find it, so...
(16:26):
Yeah, it was definitely brightred.
Like when I get nervous, I getbright red from my chest all the
way up to my face.
I'm a redhead.
There's no hiding it.
So I feel like I was in thatstate of shock for a while.
And then it slowly got easier.
SPEAKER_00 (16:42):
Well, you know, I'm a big advocate for practicing.
Practicing.
Because I do find there's a lotof things that are scary
sometimes.
But the more that we do them,the more it gets familiar to us.
And we learn something everytime we do something, right?
Every time.
Yeah.
(17:03):
I have daughters myself and I'llbe like, just keep doing it.
You're getting better everysingle time.
Just that thought.
You know, it is true.
Same with so many differentthings.
But talking about your liveshows, you dropped Healer last
year, right at the start of thepandemic.
And now you've dropped This IsThis.
Will you tell me about theanxiety and the frustration of
(17:27):
not being able to promote thatalbum, you know, right when you
had all those plans?
SPEAKER_01 (17:33):
Yeah, I was obviously in a different place
then than I am now.
But like when we found out, sothere's like a little backstory
to that.
Healer is called Healer becauseI just had brain surgery.
I don't know if you know that.
So that album, I honestly don'tknow if I was fully recovered
enough to be going on touranyway.
So there is a little bit oflight for me at the beginning of
the pandemic.
(17:53):
I had to put all my heart andsoul into this album with the
band.
And I was in the middle of doingall our outfits and lighting and
everything was ready to go.
We were at this high.
We were in London.
We were coming back to LA forour album release party.
And it was the day we found outthat the world was shutting
down.
And I remember initially, Imean, it was really, really hard
(18:15):
to come down from that high whenyou've been building and making
something and making something.
And also like I needed to getback on stage to show my body
that I was healed.
Literally, I wanted to know thatI was better.
And the craziest thing is thatduring this time, we've written
and recorded this album, This IsThis.
This is the album that reallyhealed me because I found my
(18:38):
real voice.
This album is the part of methat I've been hiding.
There's a more aggressive, moreemotional piece of me that I
feel like I've been able toshare.
And it's really, this has healedme.
And I feel very complete as anartist, which I've never felt
before.
And it's exciting because I'mwriting from a place that is
(18:59):
really open.
I mean, this pandemic has beenterrible.
We've made not a single pennysince it started because we make
all our money touring.
I mean, it's been so hard onartists.
It's been an awful time foreveryone.
Really, really hard.
And I don't want to play thatdown at all.
But on a personal level, I havedefinitely found my voice.
SPEAKER_00 (19:20):
Well, I definitely heard the power behind the songs
on that album beyond the songsthat I've heard from previous
albums.
So I could sense that, you know,and it's good to receive that
kind of energy because I thinkit empowers listeners too.
But you mentioned your brainsurgery and you had a cavernous
(19:41):
malformation and you had to havebrain surgery.
How did you first respondreceiving that news?
especially being married with adaughter?
I
SPEAKER_01 (19:50):
honestly, it was a weird thing.
I immediately started worryingabout Christian and my husband
and the way if the roles werereversed, how I would be so
scared.
Because when he gets a cold, I'mlike, oh my gosh, let's go check
that out.
So he was just a rock for me thewhole time.
So I honestly, I worry about thepeople around me before I worry
(20:12):
about myself.
So I was very concerned on howto explain it to my daughter.
And I was really concerned abouthim so part of me was playing up
like i'm cool let's keep workingeverything's fine and in a way
because of all these things i'dbeen through in my life it
didn't feel that scary i feltlike i knew i would be okay it
was crazy to have a problem thatwas medical and serious and it
(20:34):
wasn't self-inflicted on myselffor the first time something
that i'd created in my mind doyou know what i mean it was like
a physical thing rather thandepression or I feel like I've
kind of self-imposed in my life,but to have a medical condition,
I knew that I would be okay.
Christian told me the storyafter the surgery when we knew I
(20:55):
was okay.
We'd say goodnight at night andhe would just lay on the pillow
and look at me and be like, ohmy God, in like two weeks, my
wife is going to get brainsurgery.
Her head is going to get cutopen and this thing is going to
be removed.
And the strength that he had tonot show me that he was scared
was really what got me through.
And the whole time.
I mean, it was that he showed nofear around me.
(21:18):
He's an amazing person.
SPEAKER_00 (21:23):
You know what?
I mean, it's so important tohave a good partner in your
life.
It's not just the mental part ofit, but the physical part, the
intimacy.
So I'm really glad that you haveChristian and your daughter and
other people around you toreally support you and to help
give you strength during thosetimes.
And you know, one thing I readis that months before the
(21:45):
surgery, you said you tried tostay distracted and not spiral.
What does that mean to spiralfor you?
Oh,
SPEAKER_01 (21:52):
well, it's like a loop almost.
It happens sometimes when, let'ssay I'm on tour, where my voice
starts getting hoarse, and it'sthe night before a show, because
we'll do like five shows in arow.
Spiraling for me is I'm in bed,I know I need to be going to
sleep and I start thinkingabout, Oh, it hurts when I
swallow.
(22:12):
Oh, I should go get some water.
And I, I basically start createthis entire, it's like I live
out the next few weeks of mylife.
They've become a disaster.
I've lost my voice.
I go through it all.
And, um, you live events outthat will never take place in
your life because through thepower of your mind, like we go
through so many more issues justby living them out, like
(22:33):
imagining them.
And, uh, Yeah, that's spiralingfor me.
So I honestly, I meditate nowevery day.
And that has changed my life.
I do not spiral as much.
Meditation.
SPEAKER_00 (22:44):
And what is it that meditation brings to you?
Or what do you receive frommeditation?
I
SPEAKER_01 (22:54):
mean, first off, just an immense amount of
clarity and calmness, which is,I have a pretty chaotic life.
dedicating time for myself whereI can be present and feel my
breath and just know that like,I'm good to come back to that
place of, I am good.
I'm here.
I'm breathing all these things.
(23:16):
Then I can go on with it.
And I'm like, okay, it's when Idon't take that time for myself
that everything can sort of pileup, but like running late
dishes, writing a song,interviews, like all that stuff,
just, it all becomes the samelevel of intensity.
And so to be able to take amoment and slow down, then
suddenly I'm like, oh, life isbeautiful.
And this is great.
SPEAKER_00 (23:38):
Yeah, it does take those quiet moments to kind of
realize all of those wonderfulthings in your life.
And, you know, I saw a photothat I found really interesting.
I saw the words self-caretattooed on Christian's fingers.
Was there an incident orsituation that inspired him to
get that tattoo?
SPEAKER_01 (23:57):
Yeah, our friend Mac Miller put out an album,
Self-Care, and he passed away.
And Christian, he tattooed thatto commemorate him.
But then also, we are peoplethat constantly need to remind
ourselves to take care ofourselves.
And that is how you can startyour day and then help others
and spread love and be able toput on a show like we do or any
(24:22):
of it.
It starts with loving yourself.
And Christian is, I mean, Iliterally married Buddha.
I married the calmest, kindest,most supportive person ever.
I mean, the fact that not onlyis he so supportive of the
album, This Is This, where I'mliterally singing more than I've
ever sung in my life.
He's so proud of it.
And he was there just beinglike, you're crushing it.
(24:43):
Like, go back in there.
You know what I mean?
To have someone who's soselfless in that way because he
feels so fulfilled by otherpeople's joy.
It's really a beautiful thing.
And he's taught me so much aboutthat because he was already in
that self-love.
He's always been there.
I don't know how.
His mom tells me he's just beenthis way his entire life.
And it's wild.
(25:05):
And it's beautiful.
SPEAKER_00 (25:07):
You know, when I read about how you met, it
almost seemed like when you sawhim, the clouds parted and the
birds started to sing.
And it just seemed like thismoment that the universe brought
him to you or brought you bothtogether.
And so it's really great to hearthat after...
You know, you had that initialfeeling that all of those things
(25:30):
about him just line up so wellwith you and your personality.
Getting back to the self-care,which is so important to keep
that in mind.
And my gosh, he has a remindernow on his fingers, along with,
of course, Mac Miller, which,you know, great friends.
And I'm so sorry to hear that,that you lost your friend.
But what does self-care looklike to you?
SPEAKER_01 (25:54):
I think self-care, this is a really interesting
thing because we moved from LosAngeles to Atlanta during this
pandemic.
And I think when I was in LA, Iwas sort of obsessed.
I would wake up there and openmy email and I would have like,
do this six-day juice cleanse,come self-care yoga down the
block, like blah, blah, blah.
The consumerist version of whatself-care is.
(26:15):
I moved to Atlanta and it's avery different city here, but
Self-care is turning my phoneoff.
Self-care is being present withmy daughter and just being with
her and going on a walk.
Self-care is slowing down andnot trying to get 400,000 things
done at the same time, butactually experiencing each thing
(26:37):
and living in it and enjoying itso that I've accomplished it to
the fullest.
So that when I move on to thenext thing, I feel like I gave
that my all.
whether it was my daughter ortime with my husband or writing
a letter to someone or this zoomcall right here.
You know what I mean?
Like it's whatever I'm doing, Iwant to be here and then, you
(26:59):
know, do the next thing.
So I remember in LA, I wouldhave my phone open.
I'd be eating lunch.
I'd be surrounded by the band,you know, like it was too many
things at once.
There's no, I wasn't taking careof myself in a way that I
thought I was.
And by stepping away from thatpattern, I've just been like,
ah, I genuinely feel so muchhealthier here.
(27:21):
And I think a lot of it is thatyou can't really buy self-care.
You have to just do it.
And that really means for me, itmeans just slowing down and you
get as much done at the end ofthe day.
And I feel really fulfilledbecause I'm in it.
I'm living my life.
SPEAKER_00 (27:43):
Yeah, you know, I think that's one of the gifts
the pandemic has brought us,even though it's been such a
challenging time in so manydifferent ways.
I think it's almost forced us,if we haven't slowed down, to
slow down.
And it really has made thingsclear on what's important in our
lives, the people that areimportant in our lives, and the
(28:04):
things that we really reach outto do.
You mentioned therapy.
that you had been going totherapy throughout your life.
Is that something that you stillcontinue to do?
And if so, what are the benefitsfor you?
Well,
SPEAKER_01 (28:20):
first of all, I found an amazing therapist in LA
who I will not let go of.
She moved to Sonoma and I movedto Atlanta.
So we FaceTime and I try toFaceTime with her.
I used to do it a lot moreregularly, especially on tour,
but I FaceTime with her twice amonth now.
And it's honestly for me just tocheck in And I like having
(28:41):
someone outside of my world whocan weigh in on situations and
just give me an outsideperspective.
So she's become a friend in away, but I look forward to
talking to her.
So she's been with me throughvery hard times and she's now
sort of celebrating with me inthe space that I'm in and we
know it won't last forever.
So it's just nice having thatLike the moment I start telling
(29:06):
her what I'm going through, Ialready see what I need to do.
It's having that person who Ican, it's almost like as I speak
to her, I'm like, oh, I justneed to call my mom.
You know what I mean?
I need more time by myself orwhatever it is.
But it's during that time withher that I come to understand
what's missing or what'soverflowing my cup or whatever
(29:28):
it is.
SPEAKER_00 (29:30):
When you mentioned one thing that is actually
pretty common among musicians,which is getting nervous on
stage and also having panicattacks.
Is there anything that youlearned in therapy to help with
the panic attacks?
SPEAKER_01 (29:45):
That's a good question.
My panic attacks are sounexpected that I feel like I
think that I learned in therapyis that rituals for me are
really important.
So things like meditation everyday.
Those are things that stop mefrom getting overwhelmed and
that can lead to panic attacks.
So it's harder on tour becauseit's busy.
(30:08):
But yeah, I have to find timefor myself every day.
And it's just 20 minutes.
It's not a big deal.
But as a mother and an artist,that 20 minutes actually seems
impossible some days.
You're like, I don't know howwe're going to do this.
But if it means waking upearlier or taking a minute...
There are moments when all theguys are in the band and
(30:28):
everyone's pouring that firstglass of wine for the night.
We're all about to sit down.
Will is asleep.
And I'm like, you know what?
I'm going to go take that 20minutes for myself before we all
hang out.
And it's just taking that time.
SPEAKER_00 (30:41):
You know, you mentioned Mac Miller.
And I know you've donecharitable things for the Mac
Miller Fund.
Losing him as a friend, how didthat affect you?
SPEAKER_01 (30:54):
I mean, it was so sudden.
I've actually lost a lot offriends in my life, which is
weird.
When I was living in New York, alot of friends passed away,
mostly from drug use.
But it hit harder with himbecause we were just texting and
we were just planning on himmeeting Willa.
And there was just a soulconnection there.
(31:16):
It was really hard.
And actually, from the momentthat I found out he passed away,
I wrote a song called BrokenAngel, which we put out.
And I honestly felt like hewrote that song.
It was weird.
I was just at the piano and Idon't remember writing it.
It was a crazy thing.
And I remember calling his mom,who I love and I'm very close
(31:37):
to.
And for some reason, he issomeone who's passed away that I
still can't understand it.
But of anyone, because we havehis music, there's like this...
this way that he feels closealways.
And it's, yeah, it's definitelya tragedy.
It really is.
It's very sad.
SPEAKER_00 (31:56):
Yeah, that's actually one of the reasons why
I started the podcast is we'relosing these musicians that
bring us so much joy and they'reliving the world in so much pain
or, you know, when addiction hasovertaken them, it's just, it's
heartbreaking.
And I want to see people liveand Have us all enjoy all this
(32:18):
wonderful music.
SPEAKER_01 (32:19):
I think that creativity, a lot of it, the
source is pain.
You know what I mean?
So you dig into that.
It can hurt.
It can be hard to live in that.
A lot of people I know that arecreative, yeah, there's a lot of
pain there.
And that's where we write.
That's where we go to, to write.
And I feel lucky because a songlike Shout, I got to release
that.
I really genuinely felt arelease.
(32:41):
But yeah, it's unescapable forsome people, you know?
SPEAKER_00 (32:45):
Well, one thing that I really appreciate and admire
is that you've been doing somuch charitable work and
speaking out and taking actionon social and political topics
like Campaign Zero, where youtalk about ending police
brutality.
You talk about fighting votersuppression.
WearOrange.com, which is takingaction against gun violence,
(33:09):
which is really wonderful.
What is it?
that has made you want toparticipate in so many
charitable and social politicalevents of the recent year?
Oh
SPEAKER_01 (33:24):
my God.
I mean, this year has opened upso many doors and windows and
it's just brought so much stuffto light that obviously has been
going on, but it's at theforefront.
Of what's happening right now.
I feel like as a musician, we'regiven a platform where we can
bring things into light, or wecan just focus on our music and
our band is very, we find itreally important to intertwine
(33:48):
the two, you know, and if we canget other people and fans to get
involved, then why not?
Why not use our platform to dothat?
SPEAKER_00 (33:56):
I mean, I feel like you've been really busy during
this time.
I've seen so much that you'vebeen doing online, fundraisers,
and now that you have thisalbum, what are your plans to
promote it?
You know, the vaccine is out, sohopefully things will change
soon, but everything is stillvery unpredictable.
(34:16):
How do you plan on promotingthis album?
SPEAKER_01 (34:19):
Well, we are doing a monthly live stream called This
Is This Moment through MomentHouse, where we're going to be
playing a lot of these songs.
We just did our first one lastThursday, which was the night
before the album dropped.
We played the entire album frontto back, which was really fun.
But we're really just creatingthis space where our fans can
come and experience differentshows with us.
(34:42):
We're going to do some wildstuff there.
I'm going to build this entireinstallation and make a bunch of
outfits for us.
I just want it to be somethingpeople have never experienced
and also give us an opportunityto play with ideas.
It's a crazy time.
We're going to be doing a lot oflive streams, a lot of Zooms, a
lot of interviews, and a lot ofmusic videos.
(35:02):
It's a lot of screen time, butit's the way to share the album.
The feedback has beenoverwhelming.
It really has.
It's been pretty beautiful.
So let's keep that up.
SPEAKER_00 (35:13):
Well, you know what?
I was at the one last Thursdayand I really loved not only the
performances, but there's aspecial interaction that you
have with your fans.
And I think the great thingabout these live streams is
there is a way to interact,which is different than a live
show and in some ways moreintimate because you Fans are
(35:35):
asking you questions andlistening to you in real time.
So that is really cool.
SPEAKER_01 (35:41):
It's really cool.
That was one thing at thebeginning of the pandemic doing
the Insta Lives that I reallyenjoyed was just being able to
get to know our fans on such apersonal level.
We would invite them in so we'dsee their face and we'd all talk
and we'd play a song that theyrequested.
I mean, we have the coolest fansever and it's pretty amazing.
(36:02):
So we owe everything to them andJust they're constant
supporters.
Like I want them to come overand hang out, you know.
But we also have so many insaneartists.
They send in artwork and songsthey've been writing.
And it's just a beautiful thing.
It's become less of like bandfans and more of a community,
group love community, which Ilove.
SPEAKER_00 (36:24):
Well, the band's name also just brings everybody
together, right?
UNKNOWN (36:28):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (36:29):
Well, one thing I think is really interesting is
that you actually started out asan artist painting and you've
done some gallery shows.
But to incorporate all of thatinto your live show and you were
talking about the costumes andthe artwork on your albums.
I just really love that.
SPEAKER_01 (36:48):
Thank you.
It's a blast because being anartist, I think most people that
are singers or painters, you'dbe surprised how being creative
can stretch into so manydifferent mediums.
It doesn't have to define youinto one.
And I actually feel reallyliberated that I can write a
song.
And while I'm in the studio withthe guys, I can be painting a
painting that might end up beingour next album cover.
(37:09):
And there's this beautiful thingwhere it's all connected.
And I love that part.
SPEAKER_00 (37:15):
Yeah, it is really beautiful.
Hannah, is there anything elsethat you would like to say about
mental health or about yourband, Group Love?
SPEAKER_01 (37:26):
I would say if you're dealing with something
and you're in pain or you'regoing through a hard time,
please know that we all are aswell.
Everyone in the band has theirown issues and things that they
deal with that are pretty heavy.
We lean on each other and wetalk about it.
This should be normalized.
Everyone...
(37:46):
in the entire world goes throughit, whether it's for a long time
or a short period.
And we all need to talk aboutit, normalize it, listen to each
other, ask for help when it's atthat point, but way before that
point, actually.
And know that it's okay, andyou're going to be okay.
And it's okay to be not okay.
SPEAKER_00 (38:05):
Thank you so much for taking part in normalizing
the conversation.
You know what happens when youtake part in our mission?
And also providing solutions onall of these great things that
you have in your mental healthtoolkit.
But you become a superhero.
Yay! You become a check yourhead superhero, which, you know,
(38:26):
just reminds you every day thatyou are a superhero.
I love that.
Next, we have clinical casemanager Holly Lincoln and
executive director HilaryGleason, both co-founders of
Backline, a nonprofit dedicatedto connecting those in the music
industry and their family withmental health resources and also
(38:49):
recovery programs for substanceabuse.
Let's start with Hilary Gleason,who shares the story behind how
Backline first started and howeasy it is to use their
services.
SPEAKER_01 (39:02):
Backline is a nonprofit that connects the
music industry with mentalhealth and wellness resources.
We launched in October of 2019,recognizing that a bridge was
needed between the musicindustry and the mental health
care space.
When we launched it, the musicindustry was primarily in a
(39:25):
touring state of affairs.
And so it could be extra hard tofind help that was willing to
work around the crazy scheduleassociated with life on the
road.
We take pride in providingclinical and appropriate
resources for a lifestyle thatcan be really hard to
(39:47):
understand.
And we do that through our casemanagement program, which
provides individualized supportto music industry professionals
and their family members.
That's for people looking for atherapist or guidance on how to
get into a treatment center,more support group, or maybe
they don't know what they'relooking for, but they know that
(40:08):
they need to get started ontheir mental health journey.
They can connect with one of ourcase managers and we walk
through that process with themwith a quick assessment where we
talk about whether or not theyhave insurance or the ability to
pay.
I
SPEAKER_00 (40:20):
feel like the whole connection that you provide
musicians is so importantbecause I It's hard enough to
have a mood disorder, but whenyou're in the midst of it, you
can be so exhausted and you canfeel so hopeless that even doing
the research and finding outwhat's best for you is a lot of
(40:41):
work.
So just to be able to make asimple call to you and a contact
back line and to have you dosome of the legwork and pair
somebody up with the rightperson is so important.
But I was wondering, there's somany different organizations
that you could have each beeninvolved with.
What experience in your own lifehas made you want to participate
(41:02):
in Backline?
SPEAKER_01 (41:04):
We all were called to action following the loss of
two of our community members tosuicide in the summer of 2019.
And they were both incrediblemusicians and wonderful people.
And Their losses really broughtour community together to start
(41:24):
asking some of the hardquestions around how we can take
better care of one another andalso where the gaps were and how
we could make it so that peopleweren't continuing to fall
through the cracks.
And so we started a series ofcalls to have those
conversations with artists andtour managers and agents and
(41:46):
promoters and really the wholespectrum of the music industry.
And those conversations were soraw and real.
And we were talking about thingslike when someone in your band
has struggled with substanceabuse or mental health, what
does that look like?
Where did you turn?
Where did you go?
And the answers were all overthe place.
(42:07):
Many of them were running aGoogle search or picking up the
phone and calling someone andsaying, hey, I know you have a
therapist.
Do you think that they would bea good fit for me?
Any role in the music industrycan make it hard to pick up the
phone and say that you'restruggling, to know who to turn
to and who you can trust.
And so it became clear that someof the cracks that existed were
(42:30):
just that there wasn't a privatesafe, clinical place to go and
escalate some of thosequestions.
So that's really what we builtBackline around using Hallie's
experience as a therapist.
And also our clinical director,Zach Borer is a therapist that
works in LA and his privatepractice focuses specifically on
(42:52):
people in the music industry.
So they're really bringing theclinical lens to it.
I'm bringing this nonprofit andaccess to healthcare lens.
So our combination of skills hasmade it possible for us to build
this organization that is verymuch rooted in the music
industry, but also clinicallyfocused.
And we put a huge emphasis onour clinical programs because
(43:15):
that is what sets us apart.
SPEAKER_00 (43:17):
You know, I did the interview with Hannah Hooper of
Group Love.
And one thing that she mentionedwas, knowing other musicians who
have fallen into addiction orhave gotten into a crisis with
mood disorders, and some of themhave lost their lives.
If you are a musician and yousee that someone may be in need
(43:38):
of help, how would you bestapproach that?
SPEAKER_02 (43:41):
I do often get calls from whether or not it's
someone's family member or adifferent person in the band
seeing that someone on theircrew or a different part of
their band is having a difficulttime can reach out on their
behalf.
Oftentimes, it's incrediblydifficult to find the time to
just pick up the phone and makesome sort of an ask.
And so Backline is there reallyto do some of that hand-holding.
(44:04):
Because if you're really, reallystruggling, navigating the
insurance system and navigatingfinding a therapist is
incredibly overwhelming.
One way that I would definitelyrecommend helping their loved
ones that they're seeing sufferis by reaching out to us and
having us do some of that workfor them and help them through
it.
And then also really trying tocheck in with the people that
(44:26):
you're with every day.
If you see someone struggling,there's a very clear reason for
it.
So just trying to show up in anypossible way that you can
support someone, that can makeall the difference too.
There's definitely a dominoeffect.
There's this huge stigma aroundaddressing substance use
disorders or any sort of mentalhealth thing that can arise with
(44:47):
people.
And since it is so common in themusic industry, just trying to
break down some of thosebarriers around whether or not
we can actually talk about thesethings can make such a big
difference.
SPEAKER_01 (44:59):
It's become easier, actually, since the onset of the
pandemic to lean into thoseconversations.
You know, we have all struggledover the past year with
isolation and loss of socialinteraction.
And so it's become easier totalk about those things.
And something that we encourageis even if, you're not sure how
(45:21):
to approach it, you can justsay, hey, I'm with you and I'm
holding space for you if youever need to talk.
That can make someone feel likeyou've made yourself available
to them and that can make adifference.
The other thing that we'rehearing within the music
industry is just the fact thatBackline exists gives people an
opportunity to talk about thesethings just to say, hey, have
(45:45):
you thought about checking outBackline?
Or I saw this thing over onBackline about anxiety or about
breath work and using that as anintro, you know, leaning on us
as I saw this on social mediaand it can be as simple as a DM
just to get the conversationgoing in a way that is sort of
(46:05):
natural and organic.
SPEAKER_00 (46:08):
That's good advice because sometimes conversations
like that might get awkward ifit's too direct.
But sometimes just offering yourcare, your concern, and your
suggestions on things that aremaking your life better can come
off a lot better than, let'ssay, a more hard-hitting
(46:29):
conversation about someone'saddiction.
It may not be received as well.
So, you know, the pandemic,things are starting to open up.
Live music is starting to comeback, which is really exciting
for everybody.
But I was wondering, what aresome of the common mental health
challenges that you see withmusicians and crew while they're
(46:51):
on tour?
SPEAKER_02 (46:52):
For the most part, it's depression and anxiety.
Often substance use is asecondhand sort of symptom of
depression or unprocessed traumaor something like that.
The number one ask is peoplelooking to be connected with
therapists.
Our numbers are overwhelming inthat way.
People are definitely looking toget into therapy.
(47:12):
And for the most part, it's formanaging depression and anxiety.
Given very unique stressors andlack of connection with your
partner, if you're touring,attachment issues that can come
up, performance anxiety, youknow, constantly being under the
scrutiny of numbers, numbers,and then people being receptive
to your music or buying ticketsor that type of thing.
(47:34):
you're constantly under themicroscope.
And I think that for anyone,whether or not it's your passion
or not, it still has a hugeimpact on one's mental health,
just constantly being held to astandard that you don't always
feel as though you can meet.
During the pandemic, there'sbeen such an amazing effort.
People have taken this time asthey've come off the road to
really focus on how they canbetter themselves mentally,
(47:59):
general wellness, nutrition oryoga or meditation or whatever
it might be.
kind of a blessing that's comeout of the pandemic is people
have had the chance to really dosome self-reflection.
I
SPEAKER_00 (48:11):
mean, there definitely have been benefits to
having more time alone.
I know that a lot of great musicis coming out of the pandemic,
but at the same time, it's atime where everyone's had to
change their lifestyle,especially musicians with
touring and being able to dolive music gigs.
It's been a real toll on theirmental health.
(48:32):
But one thing I talked aboutwith Hannah Hooper of Group Love
was about self-care.
And, you know, you probably haveheard different things that
different bands or crews do forself-care while they're on tour.
What are some suggestions orthings that you have heard that
have worked to improve mentalhealth among, you know, a
(48:55):
touring crew?
SPEAKER_01 (48:57):
A lot of bands use the app Master Tour for their
calendars on the road.
And so inputting into MasterTour, the yoga studios that are
around, the juice bars, placesto get healthy organic food,
parks, walks, things like that.
I've seen some really creativeways that people have said, day
(49:20):
off in Kansas City, here aresome nature parks, yoga studios,
things that you can do with thattime.
Really encouraging people tofind that hour of the day that
is theirs, that they can use,whether that is meditating,
reading, doing something that isreally just for them.
(49:41):
Touring, you don't have a lot ofalone time.
And so you have to be proactiveabout finding that and building
that into your schedule.
I know people that bring bikeswith them in the trailer and
they bike every day on the road,bringing a yoga mat or
downloading a self-help book asan audio book before you go out.
(50:02):
I mean, there's so manydifferent things.
And we always say withinBackline that mental health and
wellness are not one size fitsall.
So what works for me might notbe the right thing for you, but
we do know that mindfulness is areally important part of both
mental health and wellness.
And so being mindful about whatyou put into your body, whether
(50:24):
that is food or substances, andhow you might feel that day or
the next day based on what youhave put into your body is one
way that you can be mindful.
Another way is, have I had anyalone time today?
No?
Okay, can I prioritize that fortomorrow?
Have I done any movement,whether that is walking or
(50:44):
hitting a gym or an exerciseclass?
Many many gyms will give you afree day pass.
So I know some people that putthose into master tour as well.
I think people just need to bemindful of what works for them
and what's going to make themfeel the best that they can be.
Really what we're trying toencourage is for all of us to be
able to show up happy andhealthy to work.
(51:06):
And that is going to be adifferent formula for everyone.
So trying to dive into whatmakes you feel great is a big
part of the process.
SPEAKER_02 (51:15):
And just to piggyback off of that, it's just
so important right now if you'vegotten into some sort of
self-care routine to reallythink about before you go back
out on the road, before thingsget hectic, really thinking
about what's worked for you,what hasn't, and trying to be
mindful and conscientious tomaintain that routine as you're
getting back out on the road.
(51:35):
Because Getting back on a tourbus or back into hotels, all
those things can go out thewindow if we're not very, very
conscious about implementingthem, just trying to stick with
the routine and know that asyou're going back into a
different environment, how youcan incorporate it there.
SPEAKER_00 (51:50):
Well, you know, you said one thing about routine.
And the thing is, is thatsometimes with creative people,
they're not necessarily routineorientated.
And I know for myself, I've hadto be really, really conscious
about keeping routines, becausethat is so important to mental
health, whether it's making sureyou incorporate exercise, you
(52:13):
know, good nutrition, and sleepis really important.
I mean, it took me a while toget a sleep schedule down so
that my body can heal and repairduring that time.
And I could see how that is ahuge obstacle while you're on
tour because it's late nightsand four buses where some people
(52:34):
might want to stay and socializeall night and some people just
want to go to sleep.
So having to navigate throughthat
SPEAKER_01 (52:44):
I think being honest with yourself and others about
your intentions is a reallyhelpful step in this.
So if you have been reallyfocused on nutrition or movement
or meditation or going into thetour, letting people know that
that's something that you wantto continue to do.
And I know a lot of people thatbuddy up on tours.
(53:06):
Hey, it seems like we're goinginto this tour and we both want
to be working on fitness ortrying to get more sleep or
calling home more often,whatever that thing is that you
can find accountability on.
That's a really awesome way toget farther.
in what you're trying to do.
There's a great African proverbthat says, if you want to go
(53:29):
fast, go alone.
If you want to go far, gotogether.
I think that's something that weshould all be looking to is a
community of people that you canlean on.
SPEAKER_00 (53:38):
Yeah, that kind of reminds me.
We had an interview with SammyDahl, and she's part of a band
called IMX.
And they are all making mentalhealth a priority for their band
and their crew.
And Support groups are so goodto have.
I've been in support groups.
I've led support groups.
And they have one amongst theircrew where people can vent.
(54:03):
They could voice things liketheir goals for the tour.
They could partner up with otherpeople.
And that would be somethingwonderful to not only bring the
crew together, but also makingmental health a priority.
But speaking about supportgroups, can you tell me the
advantage of a musician comingto an online support group with
(54:24):
Backlined versus, let's say, aregular local support group?
SPEAKER_02 (54:30):
Absolutely.
We launched the support groups.
Gosh, it was like the third weekof March when the pandemic hit
in 2020.
And, you know, recognize thatpeople's lives that were so go,
go, go and often out on tourjust completely came to a dead
stop.
And the whole world sort of feltlike it was just being turned on
its head.
So we quickly launched thosegroups with some licensed
(54:52):
clinicians who work withindustry professionals.
And the one thing that I'vereally seen be so beneficial for
people is to come together withnot only having the therapists
who understand the lifestyle,but also really connecting with
people who have gone throughsimilar experiences.
This has been an amazing thingfor people to be able to really
(55:15):
connect see that they're notalone in it and that other
people have gone through some ofthe same things as they have.
With these like-minded folkscoming together, there's been
some amazing networking that'shappened, people sort of
sharing, this is what I've beendoing this week to keep me from
falling into a deeper part of mydepression.
I'm just fostering that sense ofcommunity that has been lost.
(55:35):
You're often surrounded bypeople the family that you've
made out on the road or in thevenue that you work at.
And so to have that completelyripped away from people, I think
there was a very deep sense ofaloneness and isolation.
And so just to be able to checkin with folks for an hour, an
hour and a half a week has beenreally amazing to see how it's
(55:56):
been helpful for folks.
SPEAKER_00 (55:58):
And it's also a really great example of how you
connect with people who not onlywithin the United States, but
all over the world and findingthose commonalities and sharing
those experiences and stories.
And also online, you have theability to be anonymous, right?
And sometimes musicians do wantto protect their anonymity and
(56:20):
you can do that online.
SPEAKER_02 (56:23):
I'm glad you brought that up because only are they
easy to access.
They are free.
for some folks who don't havehealth insurance or can't get
into therapy right now becausethey can't afford it.
This is something that they cantap into anytime for no cost.
And you're right that somepeople want to just come on and
put themselves on mute, keeptheir cameras off and just
listen.
SPEAKER_00 (56:42):
Yeah, that's true.
And I think that's one greatthing about support groups is
that there's no pressure toparticipate if you don't feel
like participating.
Because sometimes, like I said,I've been through depression and
anxiety.
When you're in it, you may feelso disconnected that you just
kind of want to check things outand get to a point where you can
(57:04):
trust the whole process.
Well, thank you so much, Hollyand Hillary.
Speaking more about BathLine, Isthere anything else that you
would like to say about mentalhealth in general or about
Backline?
SPEAKER_01 (57:17):
We are just so excited to be destigmatizing
this topic.
It's something that everyonestruggles with at some point or
another.
And so really to have theopportunity to come on and meet
you and be a part of the podcastis a huge part of our work, just
to say, This is normal, and thisis something we all go through,
and if you need a little bit ofhelp on the way, there are ways
(57:38):
to get that.
So please reach out if you're inneed or if you want to be a part
of the solution.
There's ways that we can put youto work on that side of things,
too.
A
SPEAKER_00 (57:49):
big thank you to our musical guest, Hannah Hooper of
Group Love, and our experts,Hilary Gleason and Holly Lincoln
from Backline.
We'll be closing the episodewith a clip from Group Love's
single, Deadline, so stay tunedfor that.
For more information on GroupLove, their album This Is This,
and their upcoming tour inSeptember of 2021, visit
(58:10):
grouplovemusic.com.
Follow Group Love on theirsocials, at grouplove.
And for more information onBackline, visit backline.org.
So until next time, be brave.
Ask for help and be persistentin finding the mental health
that you need.
SPEAKER_01 (58:31):
I'm alive, I'm alive, I'm alive and lost cause
you got me always thinkingabout.
UNKNOWN (58:46):
Everybody's got a place they like to hide.
SPEAKER_02 (58:53):
I'm gonna
SPEAKER_01 (59:04):
smash my face in the cake and sell it
SPEAKER_00 (59:10):
Check Your Head Podcast is kindly supported and
partnered with Sweet ReliefMusicians Fund, DBSA San Gabriel
Valley, Ear Shop Media, andLemon Tree Studios in Los
Angeles.
Visit checkyourheadpodcast.comwhere we have over 100 solutions
for mental health.
Be our friends on social mediaat Check Your Head Podcast.
(59:31):
Watch us on YouTube and supportus with a kind donation on
checkyourheadpodcast.com.
Check Your Head podcast issponsored by a 501c3 nonprofit
with all donations being taxdeductible.
Thank you for your support andthank you for listening.
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