Mari Fong interviews Jared Watson of Dirty Heads and Dave Schools of and the Neal Casal Foundation and Widespread Panic. Jared Watson shares how his hard partying ways with Dirty Heads ("Lay Me Down," "Stand Tall") descended into alcohol and drug abuse. He recollects his wake up call when rushed to the hospital, barely able to move from his tour bunk bed. Depression and anxiety followed, with his road to recovery being a remarkable one. Their latest album, 'The Best of Dirty Heads' features the single "Rage" with Travis Barker and Aimee Allen of The Interrupters.
Next, we have Dave Schools of Widespread Panic talk about Neal Casal, a musician who died from mental illness in 2019, and the Neal Casal Music Foundation. Dave explains the mental rigors of being a touring musician and the foundation's mission to improve the lives of others also battling mental illness. The tribute album 'Highway Butterfly: The Songs of Neal Casal' is out now, with 41 incredible musicians singing the songs of this beloved musician.
“Be brave, ask for help, and be persistent in finding the mental help that you need.” For free and affordable solutions for mental health and addiction recovery, visit: http://checkyourheadpodcast.com/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
Welcome to the Check Your Head Podcast, the podcast
where notable musicians andexperts share their stories and
solutions for mental health andwellness.
I'm your host, Mari Fong, amusic journalist and life coach
for musicians, and May is MentalHealth Awareness Month.
It's also Asian Heritage Month,and being half Japanese and half
(00:24):
Chinese, gotta give a shout outto the Asian community who's
been a great support of theCheck Your Head Podcast.
Also, stay tuned for lots ofpositivity and healing for May,
and great guests like Jewel, along-time mental health
advocate.
For today's guests, we have thefrontman for a reggae rock band
from Huntington Beach,celebrating 16 years in music.
(00:47):
Songs like Lay Me Down,Vacation, and Stand Tall are
featured on their latest album,The Best of Dirty Heads.
Today we have Jared Watson ofDirty Heads, whose life came to
a screeching halt when afterbeing rushed to the hospital due
to a long decade of hardpartying.
Depression and anxiety camealong with his alcohol abuse,
(01:08):
and Jared will share his bestadvice for recovery.
Next, we have the bass player ofWidespread Panic, Dave Schools,
who was also a good friend toNeil Casale, a musician who lost
his life to mental illness in2019.
Dave will talk about the missionbehind the Neil Casale Music
Foundation and also how the newtribute album, Highway
(01:28):
Butterfly, The Songs of NeilCasale, will help improve the
lives of other musicians withmental illness.
But first, let's hear JaredWatson of Dirty Heads share his
story.
I know you've spoken out on yourjourney and issues that you've
had with addiction, depression,anxiety.
(01:49):
And I was wondering if you thinkof those three things,
depression, anxiety, andaddiction, which of those came
first for you?
SPEAKER_03 (01:57):
Looking back, I always thought I was pretty
happy-go-lucky.
And then depression and anxietyreally became a problem after
the addiction.
I looked back and talking withmy mom.
I did have anxiety as a kid.
I just didn't really knowanything about it.
I didn't even know it was anissue.
I just thought that's how I was.
Mental health really wasn'ttalked about.
But the addiction came first,and on my journey to get out of
(02:23):
addiction is when the depressionand the anxiety really became a
thing, probably an after effectof that.
So I think addiction came first,yes.
SPEAKER_00 (02:33):
You know, one thing I read about something you said,
which I thought was really onpoint, was you said that as an
entertainer, you bring the partyto the crowd.
Yeah.
And so with that came a certainlifestyle.
So everybody, when they party,they have their favorites with
(02:53):
drugs and alcohol.
What were some of the favoritesthat you were doing on a regular
basis?
SPEAKER_03 (02:58):
It was pretty much just booze.
So for me, booze was an upperphysically.
Like obviously it's a depressanton the back end.
A lot of people drink and theyget tired and they go to bed
early or they, you know, forsome reason, booze for me was
like, It was just fuel.
I could go for days and days anddays.
And that was another part aboutit.
(03:19):
Why I used so much is because Ineeded to be on a lot, whether
it's interviews or on stage andjust in life in general, I
needed to be on wherever I was.
And I thought that alcoholhelped with that.
Being on the other side of itnow, I can be on all the time,
all day.
I just have different means ofgetting there.
(03:39):
I just have different tools,healthy ones.
SPEAKER_00 (03:42):
Well, you know what?
I mean, I think there is thatparty like a rock star image
that is put upon a musicianopposed to their actual
personality.
I mean, did you ever feel likethere was a disconnect between
the image that you wanted toportray on stage versus the
person that you are, let's say,at home?
SPEAKER_03 (04:02):
Luckily, no.
I've always been really, reallyoutgoing.
You know, class clown.
super social like all that Ialways took pride in making
everybody have a good time and Ithink that's why music and being
an entertainer came easy becauseit was just built into my
personality already the allureof being a rock star was cool
(04:23):
because there's no dark side ofit yet you don't know the dark
side like as a kid growing upthere was already in a culture
where we drank and smoked andyou know I grew up skateboarding
that was like my one passion andwe drank 40s every day and we
smoked weed every day so likeDrugs and alcohol, it was fine.
It was something that wasaccepted and it was never a bad
(04:43):
thing.
If anything, it was the coolthing.
But to have a job where I couldparty all day, not knowing that
there was a dark side topartying, not knowing that there
was a downside to that, I waslike, yes.
What does everybody do when theygo on a vacation?
They usually go on vacation,they have drinks, they get to
party, they get to let loose,and 100% they should.
So that just seemed like a goal.
(05:04):
It just seemed so amazing tohave a job where I can party all
day.
Partying is my job.
It was the best.
It was the best because I didn'tknow that if you didn't do it
responsibly, there could beconsequences.
SPEAKER_00 (05:18):
Yeah, I think with drugs and alcohol, it's easy to
get baited by it because justeven you describing the
lifestyle, it sounds so amazing.
SPEAKER_02 (05:27):
But there comes a point where the consequences of
that
UNKNOWN (05:31):
in the long term, you know, affects your body, affects
your mind.
I mean, when did you first startnoticing that it was affecting
you in a negative way?
SPEAKER_03 (05:41):
It took a while.
So I'd say the first eight yearsof touring from about 20 to 28,
it was hard partying.
But you're young and you'reresilient and your body bounces
back and I can take breaks and Iwouldn't come home from tour and
it wasn't a regular everydaything.
And then the further that gotalong, I think around 28, you go
(06:03):
on tour for a really long timeand you party and you party and
you party and you come home andyou don't have anything to do.
You don't have a nine to five.
You don't have a job.
I just could sit at home and dowhatever.
So I started drinking reallyearly because I just, it was
fun.
I'd wake up and start drinkingat one or two or three or stay
up all night and go out with myfriends.
And it was just like thiscontinual thing where I didn't
(06:24):
have any responsibilities offthe road.
So when I have noresponsibilities off the road
and my habits are in that partymode, that's what I would just
keep doing.
And then around 28 is reallywhen I think the hooks got set
in from alcohol.
And it slowly got to a pointwhere I started drinking earlier
and earlier.
It's probably not that great todrink multiple days in a row,
(06:45):
especially heavy drinking,right?
You have a couple glasses ofwine, whatever.
But I was drinking heavily everyday in a row.
And that went from justnighttime to afternoon to
morning to eventually I couldn'tget out of bed.
I would get out of bed, get abeer, get in the shower, finish
the beer in the shower.
That's how I started my day.
Once that started happening, itwas no longer fun.
(07:07):
It was like survival.
Because at that point, I'm notdrinking to enjoy.
I was drinking to function.
And if you're drinking tofunction, that's a problem.
And that really bothered me.
That's where the anxiety sets inand shame sets in.
And how did I let myself gethere?
And then you try and stop andyou try and stop.
But withdrawals are so gnarly.
And you're like, I can't.
I have things to do.
I have a show to play.
(07:27):
I have work.
I got to go to the studio.
You just made excuses to notever have to really go through
that hard withdrawal, which isscary.
And I understand why peopledon't want to.
So it really set in slowly overabout eight years to 10 years,
got to the point to where Icouldn't start my day without
(07:48):
drinking.
SPEAKER_00 (07:50):
You know, you talked about the shame and I think it's
important to talk about becausethere's hiding that happens when
there's shame with addiction orwith mental health issues.
Can you explain a little bitmore about that?
You know, what did you do tohide and what were some of the
thoughts that you had that hadto do with shame?
SPEAKER_03 (08:09):
I don't think you want to admit to anybody that
you have a problem.
We call it a problem.
On its face, you're tellingpeople that something's wrong
with you.
Also, I think it's somethingthat you did to yourself,
something that you might havebeen able to avoid.
Maybe your parents haven'ttalked to you about genetics.
Your parents haven't talked toyou about your grandparents or
(08:30):
your great-grandparents or thatit runs in your family.
There's no information.
You have no information.
You don't know that you'rebiologically just set to be this
way.
So it's all on you.
And I was hiding it.
I was hiding little wine bottlesin my car.
There was booze hiddeneverywhere.
I was hiding it from my bandbecause at that level, it's not
(08:51):
accepted.
Even at that level in the musicindustry where you're literally
drinking in bed before you'regetting out of bed.
But yeah, the shame comes fromrealizing that you have a
problem and you think that youdid it to yourself and that You
know, it's scary.
And then you're so used todrinking.
I remember thinking, man, I'mnot going to be able to drink
(09:14):
again.
What do I do?
What am I going to do?
My life is going to bemiserable.
I think that was one of thebiggest hurdles was to be like,
I'm never going to be able todrink again because I was so
used to it.
It was such a part of my life.
Looking back now, and I'm soglad it's such a blessing in
disguise, especially for mykids.
Everything that we did revolvedaround alcohol.
(09:36):
And I think as a society, mostthings that we do revolve around
alcohol.
Super Bowls, parties, dinners,you just go out and get drinks,
camping, vacations.
What do you do on the weekend?
Everything that at least myfriends did, we added alcohol on
top of it.
We're going fishing.
Who's bringing the beers?
We're going surfing.
(09:57):
Who's bringing the beers?
We're going skating.
Who's bringing the beers?
Everything we did revolvedaround booze.
And all of a sudden, for that tojust be ripped out of your life,
you're like...
how am I going to even have fun?
One, how am I going to have fun?
How am I going to be anentertainer?
How am I going to be creative?
It just seemed like my worldwould end.
So not only the shame, it'sscary to think that you're going
(10:17):
to have to change your lifestyleso drastically and it's not
going to be as good.
SPEAKER_00 (10:21):
Well, I think you brought up something really
important, which is in theAmerican culture and in other
cultures as well, sometimesdrinking and drugs is associated
with a happy life, a good time.
And we may not talk about otherthings like traveling and
relationships and other thingsin life that bring us so much
(10:42):
joy and happiness, especially ifwe've seen it in our families
where alcohol was around duringthe parties, everybody was
laughing.
And so I could see how thiscould be like a mountain of
change for you.
But during this time, maybethere was somebody close to you.
Maybe it was your wife.
(11:03):
or maybe your bandmates, did anyof them ever come up to you and
question you about your drinkingor about drug use?
SPEAKER_03 (11:12):
The band, no.
I knew that they were concerned,but I think it was more like,
let's just let them hopefullyfigure it out.
And I don't think they wanted tocause problems on the road, but
I know that they were aware ofit.
My wife, definitely.
She got to a point where I waslike, hey man, are you going to
figure this out?
The best part about her is therewas zero judgment.
There was no ultimatum.
(11:34):
Maybe it was kind of anultimatum, but in the best way.
It was just like, I know you canfigure this out, and I know that
you're not happy, and I havefaith that you can figure this
out.
I'll be here for however longthat takes.
But if you're not doing thethings to figure it out, if
you're not actually activelydoing it, then I don't know if I
(11:56):
can be around.
And that's really when it setin.
I was like, well, I'm not goingto lose you over this.
So that was an easy choice forme.
SPEAKER_00 (12:05):
Also, drugs and alcohol can sometimes change
your personality in differentways.
And sometimes when we drink toomuch, we could pass out and not
remember some of the things thatwe've said or did.
Were there ever times where, Imean, a relationship or an event
was affected negatively due toyou having drank too much.
SPEAKER_03 (12:30):
I could write a book.
There's no way that I could pickout one.
And that's where a lot of shamecomes from too.
Who the fuck, sorry, excuse me.
Who wants to wake up and sendout the text message of, oh my
God, was I okay last night?
And then you get the textmessages back.
No, you weren't.
You should call this person andthis person.
(12:52):
When that happened, it was like,oh my God.
And usually it was, no, weunderstand.
Everybody does it.
Because I wasn't an angry drunk.
I think that's why it was soeasy for me to, because my
happy-go-luckiness, myfunniness, my outgoingness was
just magnified with booze.
Even my partner will say, theyautomatically think that just
because you're an alcoholic thatyou beat your wife or that you
(13:13):
become angry.
And that's not true.
I was really fun.
But yeah, there was a lot oftimes where I was maybe too much
fun.
And you do shit that youshouldn't and you say things
that you shouldn't.
And waking up those mornings andhaving to call people or getting
text messages from people, thatwas the worst.
And there's just so much shamethat comes with that because you
know that it's not you.
(13:34):
And what's really fascinating isit's helping me now actually
with my three-year-old.
When I got clean and I went to atherapist, I went to a doctor,
he showed me this big graph ofthe brain.
This helped a lot.
He showed me a picture of thebrain and he made it more about
my body and my brain than aboutme and just biologically what's
(13:54):
happening, physiologicallywhat's happening when I put
Boost on my body.
And he showed me the brain andhe said, see this little area
back here?
That's where your brain fireswhen you're drunk.
That's also where your brainfires when you're three years
old.
And I was like, shut the fuckup.
He's like, yeah, exactly.
So now that I have athree-year-old, I get it.
(14:14):
I can deal with her betterbecause it's, oh, I get where
your mind is at.
I understand why you can't calmdown.
I understand why you're upsetbecause you couldn't have that
cookie.
You're not able to control youremotions at this point because
when you're drunk, you're not.
I understand why you just saidthat silly thing you said that
you maybe shouldn't have said.
And it just gives you a littlebit better perspective to deal
(14:36):
with it.
I
SPEAKER_00 (14:39):
guess that's a good way to look at it because
children really have no filter.
They will say and do whateverthey think at the moment's
notice.
And, you know, there you go.
You're tapping into asubconscious or even when you're
kind of unconscious and doingand saying things that you
normally would filter out.
SPEAKER_03 (14:58):
When I saw that diagram of the brain and we
really went into those things, Istarted reading and that helped
with the shame a lot.
I realized that there's me,there's Jared, right?
And then there's my brain andthere's my body.
And I feel like I'm threedifferent things.
Sometimes me and my body areconnected.
(15:20):
Sometimes me and my brain areconnected.
And sometimes we don't getalong.
So when I got into thephysiology, the science of it,
it took away a lot of the shamebecause genetically, a lot of
people in my family arealcoholics.
It's a genetic thing.
I didn't know that.
That took away some shame.
And when your brain is firingreally isn't necessarily...
(15:40):
You know, it's almostthree-year-old you.
So when I started to look at itthat way and started to look at
it like this alcohol affectingmy brain and getting his hooks
in, it kind of took a bit of theweight off that it was
completely my fault.
And I 100% will take the blameor fault.
I'm okay with that.
But also people need to not beatthemselves up so much because
(16:04):
when those hooks do get in, it'shard to get them out.
And it's not 100% you that'sdoing those things.
It's not 100% you that'scontrolling them.
I would feel like a zombie.
I would sit on my couch and say,I'm not drinking today.
I'm not drinking today.
And five minutes later, my bodywould get up and walk to the
fridge.
(16:24):
And in my mind, Jared is going,why am I walking to the fridge?
Don't do this.
Don't do this.
Don't do this.
That's why I feel like there'sme saying, don't do this.
Then there's my brain and mybody saying, we need this right
now, pal.
For some reason, when the hooksget in, it tricks your brain
into thinking this is the onlyway to do it.
You're giving your brain a dayoff.
(16:44):
You're giving all the littlefactory workers up there that
are making your happy juice anddoing all the things that your
brain needs to do.
You're essentially telling themlike, hey, guys, you don't need
to do this.
You can go sit on lawn chairsand just relax and do nothing.
Take the day off because thesedrugs that we're putting in
right now are going to do whatyou have to do.
And then when you tell them toget back to work, they don't
(17:05):
want to get back to work.
Like, you know what's easier?
If you just keep putting inthose drugs because we don't
have to do anything.
When you look at it that way, itseems easier for me.
SPEAKER_00 (17:15):
I've talked to an addiction specialist about this
because I'm really interestedmyself.
She was talking about howaddiction can hijack your brain
and will tell you things so thatit continues to live.
That's why we call it a diseaseis because we don't have the
control necessarily, but we canget help.
(17:36):
And there are ways, to get outof it.
So I'm glad that you were ableto find ways to get better for
yourself.
And I was reading that there wasa rock bottom for you.
It was very interesting.
Can you tell me what happenedthat really got you in to see a
doctor and to get help?
SPEAKER_03 (17:55):
Yeah, there was no other option.
So I woke up in my bunk.
I can't remember what city itwas.
And I woke up and I tried to getup.
I just tried to get out of mybunk.
And it was extremely hard tostand up.
It was extremely hard to walkdown the hall.
I was so just shot.
(18:18):
It felt like nothing wasworking.
The anxiety was, if there's ascale from 1 to 10, it was at
100.
The depression, if there's ascale from 1 to 10, it was at
100.
I just couldn't function.
Nothing was working.
And I was like, something isreally wrong with me to my tour
manager.
I was like, bro, I can't.
really even move.
(18:38):
I have to go to the emergencyroom.
Something's really wrong.
So I got to the emergency roomand the doctor just said, yeah,
man, you're fried.
Your liver's fried.
You're malnourished.
You're extremely dehydrated.
He was like, when's the lasttime you drank water?
And I was like, I couldn'tremember the last time I drank
water.
And the weird hijacking thing isthat water would almost make me
throw up.
(18:59):
I was drinking so much that if Idrank water, it would make me
sick.
It probably had been days sinceI drank water.
Essentially, I was just shot.
My body was just completelyfried and just shutting down.
He said, this is reallydangerous.
Obviously, I can tellsomething's up.
You're an alcoholic?
And I said, yeah, I'm analcoholic, I guess.
(19:19):
And that was the first time Isaid it, when the doctor was
like, you're an alcoholic.
I was like, I am?
And he was like, yes.
You have to be truthful.
It was the first person Iadmitted it to.
It was the first person I toldhow much I drank, because I have
to.
I felt like I was dying.
I really wanted to be safe, so Iwas telling the doctor what the
fuck was up.
And he was like, man, that's notgood.
And I said, I have to play ashow tonight.
(19:41):
And he's like, I don't thinkthat's going to happen.
And I said, it's going to happenno matter what.
He said, okay, I'm going to giveyou some IVs.
And I sat in the ER all day andthey pumped me full of fluid.
And I went back and I played theshow.
And it was the hardest thingI've ever done in my life.
I got through it.
Because once you get on stage,everything goes away.
So I think I really poweredthrough it.
(20:02):
The next day I woke up and I wastaking painkillers at the time.
I would drink, try and stopdrinking, and I would take
painkillers to help with thehangover.
And then as soon as I got donewith the painkillers, I would
start drinking again.
It was just that cycle.
So the next day, we're inAtlantic City, and I threw my
painkillers in a trash can.
(20:22):
And I was like, oh my God, thisis crazy.
This was the day.
And I just made a decision.
It made me realize that there'sfive other band members that
have wives mortgages, kids,apartments, whatever, at the
time that I'm essentially goingto ruin their life if I die or
if I can't play shows.
(20:43):
Also, my wife, my rent, mymortgage.
If I continue down this path,I'm not only affecting me, I'm
affecting two dozen otherpeople.
My manager.
I went over the list.
I was like, so many people thatI'm affecting right now.
So I just said, this is it.
I'm black and white, made adecision.
I can't do this anymore.
And I...
(21:04):
Finished up the tour.
It was about a month.
And it was the hardest thingI've ever done.
SPEAKER_00 (21:12):
Well, I'm really curious because you kind of went
cold turkey.
SPEAKER_02 (21:15):
Yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (21:17):
And you were frightened enough from that
doctor's visit and what he toldyou about what was going on in
your body.
And thank goodness that heexplained things.
Can you tell me how that wholeprocess was?
Yeah.
That must have been a real shockto your body.
SPEAKER_03 (21:34):
It was rough.
It was like the first day when Icouldn't get up.
It was just a groundhog's day ofthat.
A groundhog's day of me wakingup in the morning, pretty much
laying in my bunk all day, justsweating, shaking, crying,
taking walks, just mentallydealing with things.
It was terrifying.
It was the worst fucking time ofmy life.
It was the worst four weeks ofmy life.
(21:56):
I don't wish that on my worstenemy, on anybody to go through
that.
Withdrawals are no fucking joke.
I think personally, I'm the typeof person that had to go through
that because it made me neverwant to go back there.
I had to hit a bottom.
If I weaned off, if I gotmedication, if I had somebody
(22:19):
there, if I went to rehab and itwas a little bit easier and not
so intense and not so huge anddetrimental of a time and so
terrifying that I probably wouldhave started drinking again.
But it was just so...
fucking gnarly that I was like,that's done.
You could not pay me enoughmoney to start drinking again.
(22:42):
It was that bad.
I look back on that time with alot of empathy and almost a lot
of love.
I almost look back in a positiveway to that, in a very thankful
way.
I'm very thankful that I wentthrough that.
I'm very thankful that I hadthat.
Luckily, it did work for me.
It was a long road after, and Igot a lot of help.
(23:03):
But luckily, that worked for mebecause I would never go back
there.
It was very easy after that tobe like, that stage of my life
is done.
I'm essentially allergic toalcohol.
And if that's what happens whenI start drinking, there's no
fucking way of going back there.
So it made it easy for me.
It made the options not anoption.
(23:25):
There was no options.
It was black or white.
So it was so shocking.
that there are no cravingsanymore.
I have booze in my house rightnow for my friends and family.
It doesn't bother me.
I can go to a bar.
I'm so lucky in that aspectbecause I have friends that are
still going day by day, by week.
And for some thing, it was justso heavy that it just really
(23:47):
knocked it out to where it'slike, that was fun.
I'm glad I did it.
Now this is a new stage of mylife to where alcohol just
doesn't even register.
SPEAKER_00 (23:57):
Congratulations on getting through that.
That's tough.
That's really tough.
That's tough.
I can't even imagine.
You did it on your own.
You did it on your own.
It
SPEAKER_03 (24:06):
probably wasn't very safe, by the
SPEAKER_00 (24:08):
way.
It probably wasn't, only fromwhat I've read, because you can
have some severe reactions.
SPEAKER_03 (24:18):
Yeah.
Luckily, there was nothingwrong, but also I read- So
anybody out there that isthinking about doing cold
turkey, it might obviously bethe best way.
And if you are going to do it,at least be supervised.
SPEAKER_00 (24:32):
Yes, and it's okay to ask for help during that time
because it is sort of a medicalthing.
But I'm glad you got through it.
And now you have healthierroutines through a lot of trial
and error, I'm sure.
I mean, the podcast really isabout recovery and about new
routines and new addictions thatare healthy, that are healing.
(24:55):
What are some of your favorites?
SPEAKER_03 (24:57):
I'm a huge breathwork advocate, gigantic
breathwork advocate.
Breathwork, hot and coldtherapy, and exercise, for me,
100% saved my life.
No amount of therapy did whatexercise, hot and cold therapy,
and breathwork did for me.
(25:17):
The therapy helped.
It did.
I needed somebody to talk to.
My therapists were great.
It was working, but I wasmissing something.
When I was getting clean, I wasgoing to a therapist.
I wasn't exercising.
I wasn't doing anything.
The depression was so gnarly.
Suicidal thoughts.
I couldn't live that wayanymore.
I couldn't be that depressedanymore.
It was months and months andmonths of depression and anxiety
(25:38):
that I never had.
God, therapy is helping, butit's bringing out more and this
and that.
And one day, my friend, he's anex-MMA fighter.
I said, I've been there, man.
Come to the gym.
You've got to come to the gym.
There's no way I can go to thegym right now.
He picked me up.
I went to the gym.
There was a little tiny windowof 20 minutes after the gym
where I felt like myself again.
(25:59):
I was like, what is this?
What the fuck is this?
Oh my God.
I actually feel good.
I feel like Jared, what is goingon?
He's like, dude, I'm tellingyou.
I went to the gym twice a day,every day after that for like a
year.
And then just going on my path,I found Wim Hof from friends
that surfed with.
And then as an addict, There wasthat like, what am I going to
(26:20):
do?
I can't get a head changeanymore.
I can no longer get high.
I was scared of weed.
I was scared of psychedelics.
I was scared of everythingbecause I thought I'd relapse.
So I was like, what can I do?
My friend was like, dude, haveyou ever done breath work?
Like you get pretty high.
So I was just trying to likecheat the system.
So I did this web half breathwork and I fucking got zoinked.
I like to the moon.
I had this full mini little likeMolly trip.
(26:42):
I was like, what is this?
I can do this as many times as Iwant.
So I started doing Wim Hof, andI started getting high and
euphoric feelings, and I startedhaving psychedelic trips just
through breathwork, just through30 minutes of breathing.
That made me interested, so Istarted reading about
breathwork.
I just did a 12-week mentorshipwith this guy, Brian McKenzie,
with breathwork.
(27:03):
He trains the Navy SEALs.
He trains Laird Hamilton.
Really cool.
So now we get to do all thesecool things with breathwork.
And then...
Once I started getting seriouswith breath work, there was the
cold baths, right?
The ice baths.
And I was like, man, I hate thecold.
I don't snowboard.
I don't go to the mountains.
I live in Southern California.
If it was 80 degrees every day,I'd be happy.
I hate being cold.
(27:23):
So this ice bath, what is thisice bath?
You're crazy.
I did an ice bath.
I powered through it.
I did my breath work.
I sat in there for threeminutes.
It was very cool because Iovercame something like a fear
of mine.
And for an hour or two after theice bath, I felt like a million
bucks.
I felt invincible.
Mentally, I felt insane.
(27:44):
Physically, I felt like I coulddo anything.
I was like, what is going on?
I started reading aboutphysiology.
Once I started exercising daily,doing the ice baths daily, and
doing breath works daily, that'swhen therapy started getting
easier.
I stopped having to go as much.
I stopped having as muchdepression, anxiety.
It all just started to fall offbecause I kept doing these
(28:05):
things that would give me therelief.
And then the relief eventuallyturned into a lifestyle.
I found a group where I kind offixed myself.
The depression and anxiety kindof went away.
It comes and goes still, but itwas very severe.
And I really can't give moreprops to just getting in the gym
(28:26):
and doing something every daythat you don't want to do.
But if you are that addictthat's missing something and
missing getting high orwhatever, the gym can do that.
And then you get a six-pack.
And then your wife is like, ooh,I like your body.
You're like, I'm just trying toget high.
SPEAKER_00 (28:41):
You know, I think you are a wonderful example of
how the body can recover andrepair itself.
Not to make this sound toodramatic, but, you know, you
were really at possibly death'sdoor, but you've been able to
get better and find yoursolutions that work for you.
It
SPEAKER_03 (29:02):
was not good until I found exercise.
We're human beings.
We're supposed to be moving.
We're supposed to be exercising.
We're supposed to be in the sun.
I don't know if we're supposedto be in freezing cold water,
but it sure as fuck doessomething for you.
I started making serotonin.
I started making dopamine.
From the reading that I've donewith the ice baths is that it
does shock your system.
And after the ice bath, I candefinitely feel a dump of
(29:24):
endorphins.
And then it seems to last.
And the more you do it, the moreconsistent it is.
And the more I was happy on aconsistent basis.
I want to be happy because I'mhappy, because my brain is
happy, because Jared is happy,and his body is happy.
The only way I've personallyfound to do that was through
exercise.
Even now, it's been over eightyears since I've had a drink,
(29:46):
but it's a lot of work.
It's diet.
It's exercise.
It's drinking enough water.
I think water is reallyimportant.
That was one of the things thattook me forever to realize.
Most of my problems that I washaving throughout the day is
because I don't drink enoughwater.
It's as easy as that.
That's what the beauty aboutbreath work and drinking enough
water is.
You don't think about it, right?
Are you breathing properly andare you drinking enough water?
(30:06):
The two things that your bodyneeds to live, right?
So give your body the two thingsthat it needs, the two essential
things that your body needs tolive.
Why don't you give them more ofthat and give it to them the
right way?
And when I figured that out,it's so simple.
If you do those two things,you'll see an improvement.
SPEAKER_00 (30:25):
I know.
Isn't it funny how as you getolder, you realize that all
those things that you were toldwhen you were little were
actually true, was actually goodadvice.
SPEAKER_03 (30:34):
I know, I hated it.
SPEAKER_00 (30:35):
When you're young, you're like, no, they don't know
what they're talking about.
But we all come to realize thatthere are natural highs, and the
natural highs feel so good.
And though it does take work,like to eat the right foods, to
exercise, it takes time, but youget so much back from it,
especially when you've gone tothe edge and have seen some
(30:57):
really dark times.
One thing that I was curiousabout is that, you know, Dirty
Heads, you had this whole partyatmosphere with the band and the
music.
What do you do now, now thatdrugs and alcohol are not a
major part of your life?
How did you make that change orthat transition with the band
and the music?
SPEAKER_03 (31:17):
That's the thing is what I was saying is I thought I
needed all this booze to be on.
If I exercise, I'm more on, I'msharper, I'm happier, and I have
more energy with exercise than Idid with booze.
I don't need it.
I'm still happy.
I still go out and party.
I just partied last weekend.
I can still go out with myfriends and have a great time.
(31:38):
At a certain point when I knowthings are going to get dumb,
I'm out.
And then I go home and I wake upthe next day happy and healthy.
And my buddies are hurting.
And, you know, even on the road,I look at the guy sometimes.
I'm like, how are you feelingtoday, dude?
We have a show tonight.
Was it worth it?
Like, what did we do last night?
Nothing.
But we got smashed for noreason.
(31:58):
It's part of my job to makepeople happy and not try and get
everybody drunk, but definitelystill be the life of the party.
It's better now.
It's just a better way ofpartying.
SPEAKER_00 (32:08):
One thing I wanted to talk about, when you had the
perception of drugs and alcoholas being like the party
lifestyle, thinking about nothaving in your life, I think
there is a grieving process thathappens when something that has
been part of your life for solong Even though it might have
been an abusive relationship, itwas still a long-term
(32:31):
relationship.
Can you tell me how that was,that whole grieving process?
SPEAKER_03 (32:36):
Yeah, that was rough.
I remember having conversationswith Kate, my partner.
That was the biggest hurdle.
Just this whole idea that Icould never drink again.
It was a really hard pill toswallow.
It seemed so devastating.
Looking back on it now, it'ssilly.
It's such a silly idea.
Who cares?
(32:57):
It really does not matter.
Nothing has changed.
Actually, everything haschanged.
I'm sorry.
Everything just got better.
Nothing got worse.
That's what I want to tellpeople.
There's no con.
There's pros and cons to mostthings, right?
There was no con for me to stopdrinking.
I've yet to find it.
(33:18):
I didn't become less fun.
I didn't become less creative.
Everything just got better.
It just took a while.
But for some reason, I couldn'tlet go like this death in the
family or this grieving processthat was just so hard for me to
let go.
I was so scared because I didn'tknow who I would be without it
because it was such a big partof my life and what I thought
(33:39):
was such a big part of myidentity that I didn't know who
I was going to be without it orhow my life was going to be
without it because I starteddrinking at 14 regularly.
So, It was crazy to even thinkthat I would not be able to have
it.
But I just know that that wasthe hardest part.
That was the hardest part to letgo.
It
SPEAKER_00 (33:57):
also seems that when you have something like that so
much a part of your life, youalmost start to think that it is
part of your personality.
Did you ever think before youstopped that your relationships
might change or just how youinteracted with people would
change?
SPEAKER_03 (34:15):
Yeah, I thought nobody was going to
SPEAKER_00 (34:18):
like me.
Yeah, you know...
I'm glad you said that because Ido think that that is a common
thought.
SPEAKER_03 (34:23):
Yeah.
That was the first thought.
I was like, nobody's going tolike me.
I don't even know who I am.
So how are other people going tolike me?
And it was the completeopposite.
The absolute complete opposite.
My band has said it.
My close personal friends havesaid it.
I've asked them, hey man, do youfind out fun anymore?
They're like, you were too muchfun.
Oh man, we're partying Jaredtonight?
(34:45):
Oh boy.
They didn't have to worry aboutme.
They were like, no, we wouldmuch rather have you be this
Jared than the old Jared.
Nobody misses him.
So that's a myth, if anybody outthere is feeling that way.
It's a 100% myth.
SPEAKER_00 (34:59):
I'm so glad to hear that you're married with
children now.
And you've gone to the otherside of depression, anxiety, and
addiction.
Because I do believe that thereis more appreciation for the
beautiful life that you'vecreated after you've gone
through that.
And that kind of is the gift.
But is there anything else thatyou would like to say about
(35:21):
mental health or about dirtyheads?
SPEAKER_03 (35:25):
If anybody's out there struggling, just know that
the other side is, it'sbeautiful.
The other side, it's not thisscary, spooky place where you're
not going to be yourself andyou're not going to have fun and
happiness isn't going to bethere.
Like I said, there's no con togetting through something and
asking for help.
That was a big thing for me too,is I didn't want to ask for help
and do it because everybody willhelp you.
(35:47):
People want to help.
And everybody that told me thatit will get better, that I
didn't believe, it gets better.
It's so much better over here.
SPEAKER_00 (35:58):
Next up, we have a bass player, a studio veteran,
and board member of the NeilCasale Music Foundation, Dave
Schools.
Dave will talk about thefoundation's mission to improve
mental health among musiciansand the recent tribute album,
Highway Butterfly, The Songs ofNeil Casale.
Dave was also a good friend ofNeil's and shares how life as a
touring musician can beespecially tough.
(36:21):
You know, your friend Neil was aguitarist, singer-songwriter, a
photographer.
He released 14 solo albums alongwith playing with a variety of
musicians, Ryan Adams, ShooterJennings, Chris Robinson of the
Black Crows, and of courseyourself in the band Hardworking
Americans.
I kind of wanted to start by youtelling me what you found to be
(36:44):
So special about your friend,Neil.
SPEAKER_01 (36:47):
I like to say that Neil had a lot of secrets.
He played his cards close to hischest.
I met him on the first day ofrecording the Hardworking
Americans record at the studioin San Rafael, California.
He came up from Ventura in hispickup truck, which is usually
filled with, if not guitars,surfboards, and unloaded.
(37:08):
And we just got right down toit.
And he was quiet.
He was self-assured, confident.
and an extraordinary sessionmusician.
Those qualities are calmness,just having the right idea all
the time, simplification,encouraging those around him to
be their best.
(37:28):
And so we recorded about 12songs in two or three days, and
I was just like wowed by thisguy.
And he's super friendly and laidback and charming.
Then the band got out on theroad, and you learn a lot about
a person when you're on a tourbus.
with them and spending a lot oftime in dingy dressing rooms and
then getting that couple ofhours of blissful release on
(37:49):
stage and then a long night inthe tour bus.
And we just had so much incommon, music that we loved and
people that we loved.
Neil was what I call a kingmixer.
He loved putting people togetherthat he respected and enjoyed
working with.
So he was all about connectionsand just a sweet and super
(38:10):
creative guy.
Never took himself tooseriously, but took what he did
very seriously.
SPEAKER_00 (38:17):
You mentioned him being kind of a private guy and
getting to know him.
And sometimes when people aregoing through challenges, they
don't want to talk about that.
Was there anything about hispersonality where you felt like
he was having challenges withhis mental health or even life
challenges in general?
SPEAKER_01 (38:38):
No, it took a lot of us by surprise when he ended his
own life.
Musicians and performers arereally adept at putting on a
game face because it can be likeacting in a certain degree.
And sometimes for a person whois dealing with mental
challenges, being on the road ishard.
And just getting on stage andjust being with people in such a
(39:01):
close environment, even thoughyou appear to be normal, you
might be doing a good bit ofacting.
Neil, he kept his secrets.
And when it comes to mentalhealth or the struggles he was
having, he did not really wantto share those.
He found peace in surfing.
His photography, I feel, was areally great visual
(39:22):
representation of the lonelinesshe felt.
If you look through some of hisphotography, a lot of it is
black and white, which sort oflends itself in its
monochromaticness to melancholy.
If you listen to his songs...
There's a really good bit ofmelancholy minor chords.
There's a lot of where do I fitin?
(39:44):
Why does my heart hurt?
And with Hindsight being 2020,after he left us and we began to
put this tribute recordtogether, we realized that he
left clues.
There's a song called LostSatellite where, you know, and
he said in his manifesto thatsometimes he felt like he was on
an outer orbit looking in ateveryone else.
(40:07):
He got lucky and was able tofill the hole that existed in
him with his artistry.
And he could leak these messagesout, but I wish that he had
sought out some professionalhelp because depression is
painful mentally and physically.
But there's a good bit ofdelusion that goes along with
it.
And I think that's an importantthing to talk about when we talk
(40:29):
about normalizing talking aboutthis stuff.
Depression, for instance, let'sjust hit it on the nose.
Bam.
The bluegrass artist Jeff Austincommitted suicide, and he did it
on vacation with his family.
And I was talking to my wifeabout how I always thought that
suicide was probably the mostselfish act a person could
(40:51):
commit.
And my wife brought something upthat made me think.
She said, what if the person whois depressed is so delusional
that they feel that the lives oftheir loved ones would be better
without them in it?
And that really struck me.
So Neil reached out to me.
In fact, this is one of the lasttext threads we had.
(41:11):
He's like, hey, how are youdoing in the wake of this Jeff
Austin thing?
And I told him what I justexpressed in the exchange with
my wife.
When I said the person is sodelusional that they really
legitimately feel that theirloved ones would be better off
without them, he simply texted,I get it.
And I wish that I had thoughtabout that.
(41:32):
But this is another byproduct ofthe hindsight when someone
commits suicide, there's a lotof, could I have prevented this?
I think it's natural for us tofeel that way.
We've lost someone that we lovedearly, and there's a big gaping
hole.
But really, no, I don't think Icould have.
I think what we're doing here,Mari, is providing something
(41:55):
that folks will hopefully hear.
And every time they hear aconversation like this, there's
a little more hope and a littlemore motivation to reach out to
someone who really can help.
You can share with your friendsand you can spill with them all
you want, but I think there'salways a filter on because
they're your friends.
Are they judging me?
(42:16):
If I tell them these deep, darksecrets about myself, are they
going to think less of me?
Are they going to pity me?
Are they going to bully me bytrying to help me?
But a professional, you're notgoing to have that lens.
A good listening therapist knowshow to listen.
and provide feedback in anonjudgmental way.
People need to know that thesethings are available.
SPEAKER_00 (42:40):
And oftentimes when you're having thoughts like
that, you could just be byyourself with your phone,
whether it's a text message orwhether it's calling somebody.
These are things that people cando, but it is hard really to see
signs if somebody is not reallyexpressing what's going on with
them.
(43:00):
I want to get to the NeilCassell Foundation, which was a
nonprofit created in his name.
Can you tell me about themission behind the nonprofit and
what you're trying to do there?
SPEAKER_01 (43:12):
Sure.
It's a two-pronged mission.
And the first one is somethingthat's so incredibly important,
which is getting instrumentsinto the hands of kids at
schools.
We're primarily getting guitarsand keyboards and other
instruments into the hands ofmiddle school, high school kids.
in areas of New York and NewJersey where Neil grew up.
(43:33):
This is so important.
I can personally vouch for theimportance of having an
instrument with which to expressourselves.
But the secondary is the mentalhealth benefit.
And we hope to donate money andbring awareness to Music Cares,
Backline.Care, Nucci Space inAthens, Georgia, which is very
(43:53):
near and dear to my heart.
Nucci Phillips was a musicianwho committed suicide, but his
mom died.
Found a warehouse and turned itinto a place with rehearsal
bins, free mental health care,once or twice a month, free
physical health care, coffeeshop, performances, auctions,
just a great community resource.
(44:14):
And we just want to help in anyway we can.
Part of the message that Ialways want to impart whenever I
speak to someone about thissubject is we just talk about
it.
The more we talk about it andthe more we can shed light
positive light or the fact thatyou're not alone and it's
important to talk about it tosomeone who may be suffering and
(44:36):
also bring about the knowledgeof the availability of
backline.care what music caresis doing also sweet relief and i
think we're going to see a lotmore of these types of
organizations and a lot moresort of organic reaching out to
where there will be a networkthere's a whole resource of
(44:58):
hotlines and internet sites withjust information.
And anyone who's been in anykind of recovery knows that the
most important tool you mighthave in a moment of crisis is a
cell phone with a number ofsomeone that says, don't
hesitate to call me.
And people have reached out, andI'm always very thankful when
(45:19):
they do.
SPEAKER_00 (45:20):
Yeah, it's really something very special and
something that is alwaysmemorable.
When you're able to talk to afriend during a really dark
time, and I've gone throughdepression, I've experienced
anxiety, so I know what it feelslike when you talk about the
delusions.
We call them lies thatdepression will tell you, like
(45:41):
your family is better offwithout you, or you're
worthless, or you're alone.
You feel alone.
That's the thing about thisdisorder is that even if you're
surrounded by people who loveyou, There's a disconnection
that happens and it's difficult.
I mean, if you could imaginebeing disconnected to music,
something that you love or beingdisconnected to your children,
(46:03):
it's very painful.
So opening up the discussion andall of the organizations that
you mentioned are on our websiteat checkaheadpodcast.com.
And of course, we're going toinclude the Neil Casale
Foundation.
I do feel like we're starting toall work together because we're
really all on the same mission.
which is helping people in themusic community find their
(46:25):
solutions for recovery.
Now, I'm really excited aboutHighway Butterfly, the songs of
Neil Casale that recentlydropped.
Can you tell me about some ofthe artists on that album and
what you want to do with it?
SPEAKER_01 (46:41):
There are 41 artists on this album, each one doing a
different Casale song, andbacking them up are over 100
other musicians involved.
Artists, Hall of Famers like BobWeir and Phil Lesh, Terrapin
Family Band, household nameslike Steve Earle, people you've
just beginning to hear a lotabout, Marcus King, Billy
(47:02):
Strings, Leslie Mendelsohn.
It goes on and on, and everybodydid such an amazing job, whether
it's Aaron Lee Tashin coming into interpret Neil's song,
Traveling After Dark, and thensticking around the next day to
play a scorching guitar solo onJesse Aycock's Losing End Again.
Everybody just came in withnothing but love and respect for
(47:25):
Neil.
This is about four or fivemonths after Neil passed away.
So a lot of us, especiallypeople who played in circles
around the sun with Neil, werestill hurting.
So to get together and recordthese songs was fellowship and
celebration and remembrance ofall the healing things that I
(47:48):
didn't get angry at Neil until ayear after he passed away.
I never was in denial.
It's obvious.
I was depressed about it, but Ikept myself busy.
I never bargained because it wastoo late to bargain.
So those stages of grief waspretty much anger and acceptance
was really all I was going tohave.
And it took me a while to getangry.
But as people came through thestudio making the record, some
(48:12):
barely knew Neil.
Billy Strings had met Neil at afestival.
They had a mutual admiration.
And Billy was talking about howhe was having a tough time
dealing with the pressure of hisfans expecting him to sort of
help them with their crises.
And I've got my own crises todeal with.
(48:32):
How do we do that?
And so we had a long talk aboutthese things and boundaries and
taking time, self-care, doingthe things.
For him, it's fishing.
He loves fishing.
Get away from the grind and Getsome air in your lungs.
And we had a wonderful day.
And then I got back to my hotelroom and Chris Robinson called
(48:53):
me and said, Neil hung himself.
I mean, that's blunt, but it'sthe truth.
And I think we have to be bluntwhen it comes to these things.
So Billy, to me, is important.
And having him be the firstartist to record his song for
Highway Butterfly wasvindication of not only an idea,
but an idea that Neil and Billyhad been working on.
(49:16):
Just to go back a little bit towhen we were talking about life
on the road and how it canaffect mental health, I think a
lot of people have one of twoways of thinking about musicians
on the road.
They either think it's aconstant party, like the three
hours of celebratoryentertainment that happens on
stage just continues on the tourbus and in the hotel rooms, and
(49:37):
maybe it does if you're Guns N'Roses in the 1989 tour, but we
can't keep that up forever, soThey either know that it's
drudgery and hard work, or theythink it's a 24-hour party.
But what they don't realizeoften is that no matter which
one of those it is, it's hard toget home.
(49:57):
A lot of musicians, they don'tknow what to do with themselves
when they're home, regardless ofwhether they have a family or a
side project or, I don't know,maybe they, like Ian Anderson of
Jethro Tull has a salmon farm.
But it's different, and it'sdifferent enough to where if you
aren't aware of What touringdoes to your muscles.
You're like an athlete at thetop of the game.
(50:19):
You come home and stop.
Your body is still doing thelong jump.
You're laying in bed going, whycan't I sleep?
But your body's muscles and theadrenaline that you would
associate with a routine ispreparing for a long jump.
I used to sit at home watchingSeinfeld and going, why do I
feel so anxious?
(50:39):
And finally it dawned on me.
That was when I would bepreparing for a show.
And so I For me, I wouldmedicate that part away.
I would self-medicate at home.
It got to where I wasself-medicating on the road, but
it wasn't because it was hard.
It wasn't hard for me to go tostage.
It wasn't hard for me to be in atour bus and a nice hotel.
(51:02):
It was boring.
Ronnie Millsaps, a countryartist, is famous for saying,
the gig is free.
You pay me for the schlep.
For the airplane ride and forthe endless hours on the bus and
sitting around in a hotel roomor at a venue experiencing what
they call hurry up and wait,where you have to be there at
four, but guess what?
Things are running late andyou're not going to do anything
(51:24):
until six, but you can't leaveand we don't serve food.
We do, however, serve alcohol.
Those things, I don't thinkeveryday people think about
that.
And so when the COVID shutdownhappened, it was not unlike
getting home from a tour.
And it's like, oh my God, whatdo I do with myself?
SPEAKER_00 (51:43):
And you said that at one point you were
self-medicating when you gothome.
How did you get out of that andget healthier?
It
SPEAKER_01 (51:52):
was like quicksand.
It looked like it might be niceto step on, and then it was a
slow descent until I was aboutto suffocate.
Substance abuse happens slowlyover time, and then it wants to
push your head under the water.
And I had what was commonlyreferred to as a moment of
clarity, where I was just like,I got into the music business so
(52:16):
that people couldn't tell mewhat to do.
Why am I letting a white powder,why am I letting a substance run
me like a puppet and telling mewhat to do?
This is dumb.
And I'm really lucky that I wokeup every day until I had that
revelation, and then I soughthelp.
(52:37):
And I went to a rehab and Ilearned some things.
I think it's all about fillingthe toolbox.
If I want to be better equippedto deal with things in a
different and more positive waythan I had in the past, I need a
better toolbox.
And that's what I learned frompeople who are like me.
(52:57):
And I'm not here to espouse12-step programs.
I'm here to espouse theexperience, strength, and hope
of other people who've beenthrough the same thing.
Because some of the bestmeetings I ever went to was
talking to somebody backstagewho had been through what I had
been through.
And so that's the long and shortof it.
(53:17):
I sunk into the muck until itwas up to my eyeballs.
And I pulled myself out.
And then I had a lot of peoplehelping me brush that muck off
and keeping me pointed in thedirection away from it.
And I will proudly say that mymental health was not the best.
That's why I startedself-medicating.
(53:38):
I didn't feel like I had anyoneto talk to.
I do believe that mental health,depression, and addiction are
all insidiously intertwined.
It's very important that in theHighway Butterfly record, we
have the information for theNeil Casale Foundation, which
then leads to more information.
It's important that there's thatlinkage there because when
(53:59):
you're floundering, the timeswhen I've been floundering in a
dark space, There might be amillion resources out there, but
you can only maybe see one ofthem.
And that's the one that can saveyour life.
SPEAKER_00 (54:10):
And sometimes when you're in that space, it's hard
to even reach out to one becauseyou're just exhausted.
You're tired and you just feellike nothing is going to work.
But that's the part where youreally have to push yourself and
keep trying.
And, you know, thank you so muchfor bringing Neil's music and
kind of resurrecting it andputting it out in a different
way with all his friends.
(54:32):
Because Even though Neil put out14 soul albums, he's not
necessarily a household name.
But I feel like this is givinghis songs new life through the
people that he loved most.
And that really is special.
So I hope everyone picks upHighway Butterfly, the songs of
Neil Casale.
And Dave Schools, I want to knowif there's anything else that
(54:55):
you would like to say about thefoundation or about mental
health in general.
SPEAKER_01 (55:00):
Let's just all talk.
Let's be brutally honest abouthow we feel.
It's the hardest thing in theworld to do, but let's give it a
shot.
Let musicians stick aroundlonger so that they can grace us
with their gifts.
SPEAKER_00 (55:14):
A big thank you to our musical guest, Jared Watson
of Dirty Heads, and Dave Schoolsof the Neil Casale Foundation
and Widespread Panic.
For more information on DirtyHeads, visit DirtyHeads.com.
Dirty Heads will be playing theCalifornia Roots Festival on May
26, and their Let's Get ItCrackin' tour starts in June
2022.
(55:36):
For more information on the NeilCasale Music Foundation and to
purchase Highway Butterfly, TheSongs of Neil Casale, visit
neilcasalemusicfoundation.org.
For more on Dave Scholl's band,Widespread Panic, and their
upcoming tour, visitwidespreadpanic.com.
So until next time, be brave.
Ask for help and be persistentin finding the mental help that
(55:59):
you need.
(56:20):
Thank you for your support andthank you for listening.
Welcome to the Check Your Head Podcast, the podcast
where notable musicians andexperts share their stories and
solutions for mental health andwellness.
I'm your host, Mari Fong, amusic journalist and life coach
for musicians, and May is MentalHealth Awareness Month.
It's also Asian Heritage Month,and being half Japanese and half
(00:24):
Chinese, gotta give a shout outto the Asian community who's
been a great support of theCheck Your Head Podcast.
Also, stay tuned for lots ofpositivity and healing for May,
and great guests like Jewel, along-time mental health
advocate.
For today's guests, we have thefrontman for a reggae rock band
from Huntington Beach,celebrating 16 years in music.
(00:47):
Songs like Lay Me Down,Vacation, and Stand Tall are
featured on their latest album,The Best of Dirty Heads.
Today we have Jared Watson ofDirty Heads, whose life came to
a screeching halt when afterbeing rushed to the hospital due
to a long decade of hardpartying.
Depression and anxiety camealong with his alcohol abuse,
(01:08):
and Jared will share his bestadvice for recovery.
Next, we have the bass player ofWidespread Panic, Dave Schools,
who was also a good friend toNeil Casale, a musician who lost
his life to mental illness in2019.
Dave will talk about the missionbehind the Neil Casale Music
Foundation and also how the newtribute album, Highway
(01:28):
Butterfly, The Songs of NeilCasale, will help improve the
lives of other musicians withmental illness.
But first, let's hear JaredWatson of Dirty Heads share his
story.
I know you've spoken out on yourjourney and issues that you've
had with addiction, depression,anxiety.
(01:49):
And I was wondering if you thinkof those three things,
depression, anxiety, andaddiction, which of those came
first for you?
SPEAKER_03 (01:57):
Looking back, I always thought I was pretty
happy-go-lucky.
And then depression and anxietyreally became a problem after
the addiction.
I looked back and talking withmy mom.
I did have anxiety as a kid.
I just didn't really knowanything about it.
I didn't even know it was anissue.
I just thought that's how I was.
Mental health really wasn'ttalked about.
But the addiction came first,and on my journey to get out of
(02:23):
addiction is when the depressionand the anxiety really became a
thing, probably an after effectof that.
So I think addiction came first,yes.
SPEAKER_00 (02:33):
You know, one thing I read about something you said,
which I thought was really onpoint, was you said that as an
entertainer, you bring the partyto the crowd.
Yeah.
And so with that came a certainlifestyle.
So everybody, when they party,they have their favorites with
(02:53):
drugs and alcohol.
What were some of the favoritesthat you were doing on a regular
basis?
SPEAKER_03 (02:58):
It was pretty much just booze.
So for me, booze was an upperphysically.
Like obviously it's a depressanton the back end.
A lot of people drink and theyget tired and they go to bed
early or they, you know, forsome reason, booze for me was
like, It was just fuel.
I could go for days and days anddays.
And that was another part aboutit.
(03:19):
Why I used so much is because Ineeded to be on a lot, whether
it's interviews or on stage andjust in life in general, I
needed to be on wherever I was.
And I thought that alcoholhelped with that.
Being on the other side of itnow, I can be on all the time,
all day.
I just have different means ofgetting there.
(03:39):
I just have different tools,healthy ones.
SPEAKER_00 (03:42):
Well, you know what?
I mean, I think there is thatparty like a rock star image
that is put upon a musicianopposed to their actual
personality.
I mean, did you ever feel likethere was a disconnect between
the image that you wanted toportray on stage versus the
person that you are, let's say,at home?
SPEAKER_03 (04:02):
Luckily, no.
I've always been really, reallyoutgoing.
You know, class clown.
super social like all that Ialways took pride in making
everybody have a good time and Ithink that's why music and being
an entertainer came easy becauseit was just built into my
personality already the allureof being a rock star was cool
(04:23):
because there's no dark side ofit yet you don't know the dark
side like as a kid growing upthere was already in a culture
where we drank and smoked andyou know I grew up skateboarding
that was like my one passion andwe drank 40s every day and we
smoked weed every day so likeDrugs and alcohol, it was fine.
It was something that wasaccepted and it was never a bad
(04:43):
thing.
If anything, it was the coolthing.
But to have a job where I couldparty all day, not knowing that
there was a dark side topartying, not knowing that there
was a downside to that, I waslike, yes.
What does everybody do when theygo on a vacation?
They usually go on vacation,they have drinks, they get to
party, they get to let loose,and 100% they should.
So that just seemed like a goal.
(05:04):
It just seemed so amazing tohave a job where I can party all
day.
Partying is my job.
It was the best.
It was the best because I didn'tknow that if you didn't do it
responsibly, there could beconsequences.
SPEAKER_00 (05:18):
Yeah, I think with drugs and alcohol, it's easy to
get baited by it because justeven you describing the
lifestyle, it sounds so amazing.
SPEAKER_02 (05:27):
But there comes a point where the consequences of
that
UNKNOWN (05:31):
in the long term, you know, affects your body, affects
your mind.
I mean, when did you first startnoticing that it was affecting
you in a negative way?
SPEAKER_03 (05:41):
It took a while.
So I'd say the first eight yearsof touring from about 20 to 28,
it was hard partying.
But you're young and you'reresilient and your body bounces
back and I can take breaks and Iwouldn't come home from tour and
it wasn't a regular everydaything.
And then the further that gotalong, I think around 28, you go
(06:03):
on tour for a really long timeand you party and you party and
you party and you come home andyou don't have anything to do.
You don't have a nine to five.
You don't have a job.
I just could sit at home and dowhatever.
So I started drinking reallyearly because I just, it was
fun.
I'd wake up and start drinkingat one or two or three or stay
up all night and go out with myfriends.
And it was just like thiscontinual thing where I didn't
(06:24):
have any responsibilities offthe road.
So when I have noresponsibilities off the road
and my habits are in that partymode, that's what I would just
keep doing.
And then around 28 is reallywhen I think the hooks got set
in from alcohol.
And it slowly got to a pointwhere I started drinking earlier
and earlier.
It's probably not that great todrink multiple days in a row,
(06:45):
especially heavy drinking,right?
You have a couple glasses ofwine, whatever.
But I was drinking heavily everyday in a row.
And that went from justnighttime to afternoon to
morning to eventually I couldn'tget out of bed.
I would get out of bed, get abeer, get in the shower, finish
the beer in the shower.
That's how I started my day.
Once that started happening, itwas no longer fun.
(07:07):
It was like survival.
Because at that point, I'm notdrinking to enjoy.
I was drinking to function.
And if you're drinking tofunction, that's a problem.
And that really bothered me.
That's where the anxiety sets inand shame sets in.
And how did I let myself gethere?
And then you try and stop andyou try and stop.
But withdrawals are so gnarly.
And you're like, I can't.
I have things to do.
I have a show to play.
(07:27):
I have work.
I got to go to the studio.
You just made excuses to notever have to really go through
that hard withdrawal, which isscary.
And I understand why peopledon't want to.
So it really set in slowly overabout eight years to 10 years,
got to the point to where Icouldn't start my day without
(07:48):
drinking.
SPEAKER_00 (07:50):
You know, you talked about the shame and I think it's
important to talk about becausethere's hiding that happens when
there's shame with addiction orwith mental health issues.
Can you explain a little bitmore about that?
You know, what did you do tohide and what were some of the
thoughts that you had that hadto do with shame?
SPEAKER_03 (08:09):
I don't think you want to admit to anybody that
you have a problem.
We call it a problem.
On its face, you're tellingpeople that something's wrong
with you.
Also, I think it's somethingthat you did to yourself,
something that you might havebeen able to avoid.
Maybe your parents haven'ttalked to you about genetics.
Your parents haven't talked toyou about your grandparents or
(08:30):
your great-grandparents or thatit runs in your family.
There's no information.
You have no information.
You don't know that you'rebiologically just set to be this
way.
So it's all on you.
And I was hiding it.
I was hiding little wine bottlesin my car.
There was booze hiddeneverywhere.
I was hiding it from my bandbecause at that level, it's not
(08:51):
accepted.
Even at that level in the musicindustry where you're literally
drinking in bed before you'regetting out of bed.
But yeah, the shame comes fromrealizing that you have a
problem and you think that youdid it to yourself and that You
know, it's scary.
And then you're so used todrinking.
I remember thinking, man, I'mnot going to be able to drink
(09:14):
again.
What do I do?
What am I going to do?
My life is going to bemiserable.
I think that was one of thebiggest hurdles was to be like,
I'm never going to be able todrink again because I was so
used to it.
It was such a part of my life.
Looking back now, and I'm soglad it's such a blessing in
disguise, especially for mykids.
Everything that we did revolvedaround alcohol.
(09:36):
And I think as a society, mostthings that we do revolve around
alcohol.
Super Bowls, parties, dinners,you just go out and get drinks,
camping, vacations.
What do you do on the weekend?
Everything that at least myfriends did, we added alcohol on
top of it.
We're going fishing.
Who's bringing the beers?
We're going surfing.
(09:57):
Who's bringing the beers?
We're going skating.
Who's bringing the beers?
Everything we did revolvedaround booze.
And all of a sudden, for that tojust be ripped out of your life,
you're like...
how am I going to even have fun?
One, how am I going to have fun?
How am I going to be anentertainer?
How am I going to be creative?
It just seemed like my worldwould end.
So not only the shame, it'sscary to think that you're going
(10:17):
to have to change your lifestyleso drastically and it's not
going to be as good.
SPEAKER_00 (10:21):
Well, I think you brought up something really
important, which is in theAmerican culture and in other
cultures as well, sometimesdrinking and drugs is associated
with a happy life, a good time.
And we may not talk about otherthings like traveling and
relationships and other thingsin life that bring us so much
(10:42):
joy and happiness, especially ifwe've seen it in our families
where alcohol was around duringthe parties, everybody was
laughing.
And so I could see how thiscould be like a mountain of
change for you.
But during this time, maybethere was somebody close to you.
Maybe it was your wife.
(11:03):
or maybe your bandmates, did anyof them ever come up to you and
question you about your drinkingor about drug use?
SPEAKER_03 (11:12):
The band, no.
I knew that they were concerned,but I think it was more like,
let's just let them hopefullyfigure it out.
And I don't think they wanted tocause problems on the road, but
I know that they were aware ofit.
My wife, definitely.
She got to a point where I waslike, hey man, are you going to
figure this out?
The best part about her is therewas zero judgment.
There was no ultimatum.
(11:34):
Maybe it was kind of anultimatum, but in the best way.
It was just like, I know you canfigure this out, and I know that
you're not happy, and I havefaith that you can figure this
out.
I'll be here for however longthat takes.
But if you're not doing thethings to figure it out, if
you're not actually activelydoing it, then I don't know if I
(11:56):
can be around.
And that's really when it setin.
I was like, well, I'm not goingto lose you over this.
So that was an easy choice forme.
SPEAKER_00 (12:05):
Also, drugs and alcohol can sometimes change
your personality in differentways.
And sometimes when we drink toomuch, we could pass out and not
remember some of the things thatwe've said or did.
Were there ever times where, Imean, a relationship or an event
was affected negatively due toyou having drank too much.
SPEAKER_03 (12:30):
I could write a book.
There's no way that I could pickout one.
And that's where a lot of shamecomes from too.
Who the fuck, sorry, excuse me.
Who wants to wake up and sendout the text message of, oh my
God, was I okay last night?
And then you get the textmessages back.
No, you weren't.
You should call this person andthis person.
(12:52):
When that happened, it was like,oh my God.
And usually it was, no, weunderstand.
Everybody does it.
Because I wasn't an angry drunk.
I think that's why it was soeasy for me to, because my
happy-go-luckiness, myfunniness, my outgoingness was
just magnified with booze.
Even my partner will say, theyautomatically think that just
because you're an alcoholic thatyou beat your wife or that you
(13:13):
become angry.
And that's not true.
I was really fun.
But yeah, there was a lot oftimes where I was maybe too much
fun.
And you do shit that youshouldn't and you say things
that you shouldn't.
And waking up those mornings andhaving to call people or getting
text messages from people, thatwas the worst.
And there's just so much shamethat comes with that because you
know that it's not you.
(13:34):
And what's really fascinating isit's helping me now actually
with my three-year-old.
When I got clean and I went to atherapist, I went to a doctor,
he showed me this big graph ofthe brain.
This helped a lot.
He showed me a picture of thebrain and he made it more about
my body and my brain than aboutme and just biologically what's
(13:54):
happening, physiologicallywhat's happening when I put
Boost on my body.
And he showed me the brain andhe said, see this little area
back here?
That's where your brain fireswhen you're drunk.
That's also where your brainfires when you're three years
old.
And I was like, shut the fuckup.
He's like, yeah, exactly.
So now that I have athree-year-old, I get it.
(14:14):
I can deal with her betterbecause it's, oh, I get where
your mind is at.
I understand why you can't calmdown.
I understand why you're upsetbecause you couldn't have that
cookie.
You're not able to control youremotions at this point because
when you're drunk, you're not.
I understand why you just saidthat silly thing you said that
you maybe shouldn't have said.
And it just gives you a littlebit better perspective to deal
(14:36):
with it.
I
SPEAKER_00 (14:39):
guess that's a good way to look at it because
children really have no filter.
They will say and do whateverthey think at the moment's
notice.
And, you know, there you go.
You're tapping into asubconscious or even when you're
kind of unconscious and doingand saying things that you
normally would filter out.
SPEAKER_03 (14:58):
When I saw that diagram of the brain and we
really went into those things, Istarted reading and that helped
with the shame a lot.
I realized that there's me,there's Jared, right?
And then there's my brain andthere's my body.
And I feel like I'm threedifferent things.
Sometimes me and my body areconnected.
(15:20):
Sometimes me and my brain areconnected.
And sometimes we don't getalong.
So when I got into thephysiology, the science of it,
it took away a lot of the shamebecause genetically, a lot of
people in my family arealcoholics.
It's a genetic thing.
I didn't know that.
That took away some shame.
And when your brain is firingreally isn't necessarily...
(15:40):
You know, it's almostthree-year-old you.
So when I started to look at itthat way and started to look at
it like this alcohol affectingmy brain and getting his hooks
in, it kind of took a bit of theweight off that it was
completely my fault.
And I 100% will take the blameor fault.
I'm okay with that.
But also people need to not beatthemselves up so much because
(16:04):
when those hooks do get in, it'shard to get them out.
And it's not 100% you that'sdoing those things.
It's not 100% you that'scontrolling them.
I would feel like a zombie.
I would sit on my couch and say,I'm not drinking today.
I'm not drinking today.
And five minutes later, my bodywould get up and walk to the
fridge.
(16:24):
And in my mind, Jared is going,why am I walking to the fridge?
Don't do this.
Don't do this.
Don't do this.
That's why I feel like there'sme saying, don't do this.
Then there's my brain and mybody saying, we need this right
now, pal.
For some reason, when the hooksget in, it tricks your brain
into thinking this is the onlyway to do it.
You're giving your brain a dayoff.
(16:44):
You're giving all the littlefactory workers up there that
are making your happy juice anddoing all the things that your
brain needs to do.
You're essentially telling themlike, hey, guys, you don't need
to do this.
You can go sit on lawn chairsand just relax and do nothing.
Take the day off because thesedrugs that we're putting in
right now are going to do whatyou have to do.
And then when you tell them toget back to work, they don't
(17:05):
want to get back to work.
Like, you know what's easier?
If you just keep putting inthose drugs because we don't
have to do anything.
When you look at it that way, itseems easier for me.
SPEAKER_00 (17:15):
I've talked to an addiction specialist about this
because I'm really interestedmyself.
She was talking about howaddiction can hijack your brain
and will tell you things so thatit continues to live.
That's why we call it a diseaseis because we don't have the
control necessarily, but we canget help.
(17:36):
And there are ways, to get outof it.
So I'm glad that you were ableto find ways to get better for
yourself.
And I was reading that there wasa rock bottom for you.
It was very interesting.
Can you tell me what happenedthat really got you in to see a
doctor and to get help?
SPEAKER_03 (17:55):
Yeah, there was no other option.
So I woke up in my bunk.
I can't remember what city itwas.
And I woke up and I tried to getup.
I just tried to get out of mybunk.
And it was extremely hard tostand up.
It was extremely hard to walkdown the hall.
I was so just shot.
(18:18):
It felt like nothing wasworking.
The anxiety was, if there's ascale from 1 to 10, it was at
100.
The depression, if there's ascale from 1 to 10, it was at
100.
I just couldn't function.
Nothing was working.
And I was like, something isreally wrong with me to my tour
manager.
I was like, bro, I can't.
really even move.
(18:38):
I have to go to the emergencyroom.
Something's really wrong.
So I got to the emergency roomand the doctor just said, yeah,
man, you're fried.
Your liver's fried.
You're malnourished.
You're extremely dehydrated.
He was like, when's the lasttime you drank water?
And I was like, I couldn'tremember the last time I drank
water.
And the weird hijacking thing isthat water would almost make me
throw up.
(18:59):
I was drinking so much that if Idrank water, it would make me
sick.
It probably had been days sinceI drank water.
Essentially, I was just shot.
My body was just completelyfried and just shutting down.
He said, this is reallydangerous.
Obviously, I can tellsomething's up.
You're an alcoholic?
And I said, yeah, I'm analcoholic, I guess.
(19:19):
And that was the first time Isaid it, when the doctor was
like, you're an alcoholic.
I was like, I am?
And he was like, yes.
You have to be truthful.
It was the first person Iadmitted it to.
It was the first person I toldhow much I drank, because I have
to.
I felt like I was dying.
I really wanted to be safe, so Iwas telling the doctor what the
fuck was up.
And he was like, man, that's notgood.
And I said, I have to play ashow tonight.
(19:41):
And he's like, I don't thinkthat's going to happen.
And I said, it's going to happenno matter what.
He said, okay, I'm going to giveyou some IVs.
And I sat in the ER all day andthey pumped me full of fluid.
And I went back and I played theshow.
And it was the hardest thingI've ever done in my life.
I got through it.
Because once you get on stage,everything goes away.
So I think I really poweredthrough it.
(20:02):
The next day I woke up and I wastaking painkillers at the time.
I would drink, try and stopdrinking, and I would take
painkillers to help with thehangover.
And then as soon as I got donewith the painkillers, I would
start drinking again.
It was just that cycle.
So the next day, we're inAtlantic City, and I threw my
painkillers in a trash can.
(20:22):
And I was like, oh my God, thisis crazy.
This was the day.
And I just made a decision.
It made me realize that there'sfive other band members that
have wives mortgages, kids,apartments, whatever, at the
time that I'm essentially goingto ruin their life if I die or
if I can't play shows.
(20:43):
Also, my wife, my rent, mymortgage.
If I continue down this path,I'm not only affecting me, I'm
affecting two dozen otherpeople.
My manager.
I went over the list.
I was like, so many people thatI'm affecting right now.
So I just said, this is it.
I'm black and white, made adecision.
I can't do this anymore.
And I...
(21:04):
Finished up the tour.
It was about a month.
And it was the hardest thingI've ever done.
SPEAKER_00 (21:12):
Well, I'm really curious because you kind of went
cold turkey.
SPEAKER_02 (21:15):
Yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (21:17):
And you were frightened enough from that
doctor's visit and what he toldyou about what was going on in
your body.
And thank goodness that heexplained things.
Can you tell me how that wholeprocess was?
Yeah.
That must have been a real shockto your body.
SPEAKER_03 (21:34):
It was rough.
It was like the first day when Icouldn't get up.
It was just a groundhog's day ofthat.
A groundhog's day of me wakingup in the morning, pretty much
laying in my bunk all day, justsweating, shaking, crying,
taking walks, just mentallydealing with things.
It was terrifying.
It was the worst fucking time ofmy life.
It was the worst four weeks ofmy life.
(21:56):
I don't wish that on my worstenemy, on anybody to go through
that.
Withdrawals are no fucking joke.
I think personally, I'm the typeof person that had to go through
that because it made me neverwant to go back there.
I had to hit a bottom.
If I weaned off, if I gotmedication, if I had somebody
(22:19):
there, if I went to rehab and itwas a little bit easier and not
so intense and not so huge anddetrimental of a time and so
terrifying that I probably wouldhave started drinking again.
But it was just so...
fucking gnarly that I was like,that's done.
You could not pay me enoughmoney to start drinking again.
(22:42):
It was that bad.
I look back on that time with alot of empathy and almost a lot
of love.
I almost look back in a positiveway to that, in a very thankful
way.
I'm very thankful that I wentthrough that.
I'm very thankful that I hadthat.
Luckily, it did work for me.
It was a long road after, and Igot a lot of help.
(23:03):
But luckily, that worked for mebecause I would never go back
there.
It was very easy after that tobe like, that stage of my life
is done.
I'm essentially allergic toalcohol.
And if that's what happens whenI start drinking, there's no
fucking way of going back there.
So it made it easy for me.
It made the options not anoption.
(23:25):
There was no options.
It was black or white.
So it was so shocking.
that there are no cravingsanymore.
I have booze in my house rightnow for my friends and family.
It doesn't bother me.
I can go to a bar.
I'm so lucky in that aspectbecause I have friends that are
still going day by day, by week.
And for some thing, it was justso heavy that it just really
(23:47):
knocked it out to where it'slike, that was fun.
I'm glad I did it.
Now this is a new stage of mylife to where alcohol just
doesn't even register.
SPEAKER_00 (23:57):
Congratulations on getting through that.
That's tough.
That's really tough.
That's tough.
I can't even imagine.
You did it on your own.
You did it on your own.
It
SPEAKER_03 (24:06):
probably wasn't very safe, by the
SPEAKER_00 (24:08):
way.
It probably wasn't, only fromwhat I've read, because you can
have some severe reactions.
SPEAKER_03 (24:18):
Yeah.
Luckily, there was nothingwrong, but also I read- So
anybody out there that isthinking about doing cold
turkey, it might obviously bethe best way.
And if you are going to do it,at least be supervised.
SPEAKER_00 (24:32):
Yes, and it's okay to ask for help during that time
because it is sort of a medicalthing.
But I'm glad you got through it.
And now you have healthierroutines through a lot of trial
and error, I'm sure.
I mean, the podcast really isabout recovery and about new
routines and new addictions thatare healthy, that are healing.
(24:55):
What are some of your favorites?
SPEAKER_03 (24:57):
I'm a huge breathwork advocate, gigantic
breathwork advocate.
Breathwork, hot and coldtherapy, and exercise, for me,
100% saved my life.
No amount of therapy did whatexercise, hot and cold therapy,
and breathwork did for me.
(25:17):
The therapy helped.
It did.
I needed somebody to talk to.
My therapists were great.
It was working, but I wasmissing something.
When I was getting clean, I wasgoing to a therapist.
I wasn't exercising.
I wasn't doing anything.
The depression was so gnarly.
Suicidal thoughts.
I couldn't live that wayanymore.
I couldn't be that depressedanymore.
It was months and months andmonths of depression and anxiety
(25:38):
that I never had.
God, therapy is helping, butit's bringing out more and this
and that.
And one day, my friend, he's anex-MMA fighter.
I said, I've been there, man.
Come to the gym.
You've got to come to the gym.
There's no way I can go to thegym right now.
He picked me up.
I went to the gym.
There was a little tiny windowof 20 minutes after the gym
where I felt like myself again.
(25:59):
I was like, what is this?
What the fuck is this?
Oh my God.
I actually feel good.
I feel like Jared, what is goingon?
He's like, dude, I'm tellingyou.
I went to the gym twice a day,every day after that for like a
year.
And then just going on my path,I found Wim Hof from friends
that surfed with.
And then as an addict, There wasthat like, what am I going to
(26:20):
do?
I can't get a head changeanymore.
I can no longer get high.
I was scared of weed.
I was scared of psychedelics.
I was scared of everythingbecause I thought I'd relapse.
So I was like, what can I do?
My friend was like, dude, haveyou ever done breath work?
Like you get pretty high.
So I was just trying to likecheat the system.
So I did this web half breathwork and I fucking got zoinked.
I like to the moon.
I had this full mini little likeMolly trip.
(26:42):
I was like, what is this?
I can do this as many times as Iwant.
So I started doing Wim Hof, andI started getting high and
euphoric feelings, and I startedhaving psychedelic trips just
through breathwork, just through30 minutes of breathing.
That made me interested, so Istarted reading about
breathwork.
I just did a 12-week mentorshipwith this guy, Brian McKenzie,
with breathwork.
(27:03):
He trains the Navy SEALs.
He trains Laird Hamilton.
Really cool.
So now we get to do all thesecool things with breathwork.
And then...
Once I started getting seriouswith breath work, there was the
cold baths, right?
The ice baths.
And I was like, man, I hate thecold.
I don't snowboard.
I don't go to the mountains.
I live in Southern California.
If it was 80 degrees every day,I'd be happy.
I hate being cold.
(27:23):
So this ice bath, what is thisice bath?
You're crazy.
I did an ice bath.
I powered through it.
I did my breath work.
I sat in there for threeminutes.
It was very cool because Iovercame something like a fear
of mine.
And for an hour or two after theice bath, I felt like a million
bucks.
I felt invincible.
Mentally, I felt insane.
(27:44):
Physically, I felt like I coulddo anything.
I was like, what is going on?
I started reading aboutphysiology.
Once I started exercising daily,doing the ice baths daily, and
doing breath works daily, that'swhen therapy started getting
easier.
I stopped having to go as much.
I stopped having as muchdepression, anxiety.
It all just started to fall offbecause I kept doing these
(28:05):
things that would give me therelief.
And then the relief eventuallyturned into a lifestyle.
I found a group where I kind offixed myself.
The depression and anxiety kindof went away.
It comes and goes still, but itwas very severe.
And I really can't give moreprops to just getting in the gym
(28:26):
and doing something every daythat you don't want to do.
But if you are that addictthat's missing something and
missing getting high orwhatever, the gym can do that.
And then you get a six-pack.
And then your wife is like, ooh,I like your body.
You're like, I'm just trying toget high.
SPEAKER_00 (28:41):
You know, I think you are a wonderful example of
how the body can recover andrepair itself.
Not to make this sound toodramatic, but, you know, you
were really at possibly death'sdoor, but you've been able to
get better and find yoursolutions that work for you.
It
SPEAKER_03 (29:02):
was not good until I found exercise.
We're human beings.
We're supposed to be moving.
We're supposed to be exercising.
We're supposed to be in the sun.
I don't know if we're supposedto be in freezing cold water,
but it sure as fuck doessomething for you.
I started making serotonin.
I started making dopamine.
From the reading that I've donewith the ice baths is that it
does shock your system.
And after the ice bath, I candefinitely feel a dump of
(29:24):
endorphins.
And then it seems to last.
And the more you do it, the moreconsistent it is.
And the more I was happy on aconsistent basis.
I want to be happy because I'mhappy, because my brain is
happy, because Jared is happy,and his body is happy.
The only way I've personallyfound to do that was through
exercise.
Even now, it's been over eightyears since I've had a drink,
(29:46):
but it's a lot of work.
It's diet.
It's exercise.
It's drinking enough water.
I think water is reallyimportant.
That was one of the things thattook me forever to realize.
Most of my problems that I washaving throughout the day is
because I don't drink enoughwater.
It's as easy as that.
That's what the beauty aboutbreath work and drinking enough
water is.
You don't think about it, right?
Are you breathing properly andare you drinking enough water?
(30:06):
The two things that your bodyneeds to live, right?
So give your body the two thingsthat it needs, the two essential
things that your body needs tolive.
Why don't you give them more ofthat and give it to them the
right way?
And when I figured that out,it's so simple.
If you do those two things,you'll see an improvement.
SPEAKER_00 (30:25):
I know.
Isn't it funny how as you getolder, you realize that all
those things that you were toldwhen you were little were
actually true, was actually goodadvice.
SPEAKER_03 (30:34):
I know, I hated it.
SPEAKER_00 (30:35):
When you're young, you're like, no, they don't know
what they're talking about.
But we all come to realize thatthere are natural highs, and the
natural highs feel so good.
And though it does take work,like to eat the right foods, to
exercise, it takes time, but youget so much back from it,
especially when you've gone tothe edge and have seen some
(30:57):
really dark times.
One thing that I was curiousabout is that, you know, Dirty
Heads, you had this whole partyatmosphere with the band and the
music.
What do you do now, now thatdrugs and alcohol are not a
major part of your life?
How did you make that change orthat transition with the band
and the music?
SPEAKER_03 (31:17):
That's the thing is what I was saying is I thought I
needed all this booze to be on.
If I exercise, I'm more on, I'msharper, I'm happier, and I have
more energy with exercise than Idid with booze.
I don't need it.
I'm still happy.
I still go out and party.
I just partied last weekend.
I can still go out with myfriends and have a great time.
(31:38):
At a certain point when I knowthings are going to get dumb,
I'm out.
And then I go home and I wake upthe next day happy and healthy.
And my buddies are hurting.
And, you know, even on the road,I look at the guy sometimes.
I'm like, how are you feelingtoday, dude?
We have a show tonight.
Was it worth it?
Like, what did we do last night?
Nothing.
But we got smashed for noreason.
(31:58):
It's part of my job to makepeople happy and not try and get
everybody drunk, but definitelystill be the life of the party.
It's better now.
It's just a better way ofpartying.
SPEAKER_00 (32:08):
One thing I wanted to talk about, when you had the
perception of drugs and alcoholas being like the party
lifestyle, thinking about nothaving in your life, I think
there is a grieving process thathappens when something that has
been part of your life for solong Even though it might have
been an abusive relationship, itwas still a long-term
(32:31):
relationship.
Can you tell me how that was,that whole grieving process?
SPEAKER_03 (32:36):
Yeah, that was rough.
I remember having conversationswith Kate, my partner.
That was the biggest hurdle.
Just this whole idea that Icould never drink again.
It was a really hard pill toswallow.
It seemed so devastating.
Looking back on it now, it'ssilly.
It's such a silly idea.
Who cares?
(32:57):
It really does not matter.
Nothing has changed.
Actually, everything haschanged.
I'm sorry.
Everything just got better.
Nothing got worse.
That's what I want to tellpeople.
There's no con.
There's pros and cons to mostthings, right?
There was no con for me to stopdrinking.
I've yet to find it.
(33:18):
I didn't become less fun.
I didn't become less creative.
Everything just got better.
It just took a while.
But for some reason, I couldn'tlet go like this death in the
family or this grieving processthat was just so hard for me to
let go.
I was so scared because I didn'tknow who I would be without it
because it was such a big partof my life and what I thought
(33:39):
was such a big part of myidentity that I didn't know who
I was going to be without it orhow my life was going to be
without it because I starteddrinking at 14 regularly.
So, It was crazy to even thinkthat I would not be able to have
it.
But I just know that that wasthe hardest part.
That was the hardest part to letgo.
It
SPEAKER_00 (33:57):
also seems that when you have something like that so
much a part of your life, youalmost start to think that it is
part of your personality.
Did you ever think before youstopped that your relationships
might change or just how youinteracted with people would
change?
SPEAKER_03 (34:15):
Yeah, I thought nobody was going to
SPEAKER_00 (34:18):
like me.
Yeah, you know...
I'm glad you said that because Ido think that that is a common
thought.
SPEAKER_03 (34:23):
Yeah.
That was the first thought.
I was like, nobody's going tolike me.
I don't even know who I am.
So how are other people going tolike me?
And it was the completeopposite.
The absolute complete opposite.
My band has said it.
My close personal friends havesaid it.
I've asked them, hey man, do youfind out fun anymore?
They're like, you were too muchfun.
Oh man, we're partying Jaredtonight?
(34:45):
Oh boy.
They didn't have to worry aboutme.
They were like, no, we wouldmuch rather have you be this
Jared than the old Jared.
Nobody misses him.
So that's a myth, if anybody outthere is feeling that way.
It's a 100% myth.
SPEAKER_00 (34:59):
I'm so glad to hear that you're married with
children now.
And you've gone to the otherside of depression, anxiety, and
addiction.
Because I do believe that thereis more appreciation for the
beautiful life that you'vecreated after you've gone
through that.
And that kind of is the gift.
But is there anything else thatyou would like to say about
(35:21):
mental health or about dirtyheads?
SPEAKER_03 (35:25):
If anybody's out there struggling, just know that
the other side is, it'sbeautiful.
The other side, it's not thisscary, spooky place where you're
not going to be yourself andyou're not going to have fun and
happiness isn't going to bethere.
Like I said, there's no con togetting through something and
asking for help.
That was a big thing for me too,is I didn't want to ask for help
and do it because everybody willhelp you.
(35:47):
People want to help.
And everybody that told me thatit will get better, that I
didn't believe, it gets better.
It's so much better over here.
SPEAKER_00 (35:58):
Next up, we have a bass player, a studio veteran,
and board member of the NeilCasale Music Foundation, Dave
Schools.
Dave will talk about thefoundation's mission to improve
mental health among musiciansand the recent tribute album,
Highway Butterfly, The Songs ofNeil Casale.
Dave was also a good friend ofNeil's and shares how life as a
touring musician can beespecially tough.
(36:21):
You know, your friend Neil was aguitarist, singer-songwriter, a
photographer.
He released 14 solo albums alongwith playing with a variety of
musicians, Ryan Adams, ShooterJennings, Chris Robinson of the
Black Crows, and of courseyourself in the band Hardworking
Americans.
I kind of wanted to start by youtelling me what you found to be
(36:44):
So special about your friend,Neil.
SPEAKER_01 (36:47):
I like to say that Neil had a lot of secrets.
He played his cards close to hischest.
I met him on the first day ofrecording the Hardworking
Americans record at the studioin San Rafael, California.
He came up from Ventura in hispickup truck, which is usually
filled with, if not guitars,surfboards, and unloaded.
(37:08):
And we just got right down toit.
And he was quiet.
He was self-assured, confident.
and an extraordinary sessionmusician.
Those qualities are calmness,just having the right idea all
the time, simplification,encouraging those around him to
be their best.
(37:28):
And so we recorded about 12songs in two or three days, and
I was just like wowed by thisguy.
And he's super friendly and laidback and charming.
Then the band got out on theroad, and you learn a lot about
a person when you're on a tourbus.
with them and spending a lot oftime in dingy dressing rooms and
then getting that couple ofhours of blissful release on
(37:49):
stage and then a long night inthe tour bus.
And we just had so much incommon, music that we loved and
people that we loved.
Neil was what I call a kingmixer.
He loved putting people togetherthat he respected and enjoyed
working with.
So he was all about connectionsand just a sweet and super
(38:10):
creative guy.
Never took himself tooseriously, but took what he did
very seriously.
SPEAKER_00 (38:17):
You mentioned him being kind of a private guy and
getting to know him.
And sometimes when people aregoing through challenges, they
don't want to talk about that.
Was there anything about hispersonality where you felt like
he was having challenges withhis mental health or even life
challenges in general?
SPEAKER_01 (38:38):
No, it took a lot of us by surprise when he ended his
own life.
Musicians and performers arereally adept at putting on a
game face because it can be likeacting in a certain degree.
And sometimes for a person whois dealing with mental
challenges, being on the road ishard.
And just getting on stage andjust being with people in such a
(39:01):
close environment, even thoughyou appear to be normal, you
might be doing a good bit ofacting.
Neil, he kept his secrets.
And when it comes to mentalhealth or the struggles he was
having, he did not really wantto share those.
He found peace in surfing.
His photography, I feel, was areally great visual
(39:22):
representation of the lonelinesshe felt.
If you look through some of hisphotography, a lot of it is
black and white, which sort oflends itself in its
monochromaticness to melancholy.
If you listen to his songs...
There's a really good bit ofmelancholy minor chords.
There's a lot of where do I fitin?
(39:44):
Why does my heart hurt?
And with Hindsight being 2020,after he left us and we began to
put this tribute recordtogether, we realized that he
left clues.
There's a song called LostSatellite where, you know, and
he said in his manifesto thatsometimes he felt like he was on
an outer orbit looking in ateveryone else.
(40:07):
He got lucky and was able tofill the hole that existed in
him with his artistry.
And he could leak these messagesout, but I wish that he had
sought out some professionalhelp because depression is
painful mentally and physically.
But there's a good bit ofdelusion that goes along with
it.
And I think that's an importantthing to talk about when we talk
(40:29):
about normalizing talking aboutthis stuff.
Depression, for instance, let'sjust hit it on the nose.
Bam.
The bluegrass artist Jeff Austincommitted suicide, and he did it
on vacation with his family.
And I was talking to my wifeabout how I always thought that
suicide was probably the mostselfish act a person could
(40:51):
commit.
And my wife brought something upthat made me think.
She said, what if the person whois depressed is so delusional
that they feel that the lives oftheir loved ones would be better
without them in it?
And that really struck me.
So Neil reached out to me.
In fact, this is one of the lasttext threads we had.
(41:11):
He's like, hey, how are youdoing in the wake of this Jeff
Austin thing?
And I told him what I justexpressed in the exchange with
my wife.
When I said the person is sodelusional that they really
legitimately feel that theirloved ones would be better off
without them, he simply texted,I get it.
And I wish that I had thoughtabout that.
(41:32):
But this is another byproduct ofthe hindsight when someone
commits suicide, there's a lotof, could I have prevented this?
I think it's natural for us tofeel that way.
We've lost someone that we lovedearly, and there's a big gaping
hole.
But really, no, I don't think Icould have.
I think what we're doing here,Mari, is providing something
(41:55):
that folks will hopefully hear.
And every time they hear aconversation like this, there's
a little more hope and a littlemore motivation to reach out to
someone who really can help.
You can share with your friendsand you can spill with them all
you want, but I think there'salways a filter on because
they're your friends.
Are they judging me?
(42:16):
If I tell them these deep, darksecrets about myself, are they
going to think less of me?
Are they going to pity me?
Are they going to bully me bytrying to help me?
But a professional, you're notgoing to have that lens.
A good listening therapist knowshow to listen.
and provide feedback in anonjudgmental way.
People need to know that thesethings are available.
SPEAKER_00 (42:40):
And oftentimes when you're having thoughts like
that, you could just be byyourself with your phone,
whether it's a text message orwhether it's calling somebody.
These are things that people cando, but it is hard really to see
signs if somebody is not reallyexpressing what's going on with
them.
(43:00):
I want to get to the NeilCassell Foundation, which was a
nonprofit created in his name.
Can you tell me about themission behind the nonprofit and
what you're trying to do there?
SPEAKER_01 (43:12):
Sure.
It's a two-pronged mission.
And the first one is somethingthat's so incredibly important,
which is getting instrumentsinto the hands of kids at
schools.
We're primarily getting guitarsand keyboards and other
instruments into the hands ofmiddle school, high school kids.
in areas of New York and NewJersey where Neil grew up.
(43:33):
This is so important.
I can personally vouch for theimportance of having an
instrument with which to expressourselves.
But the secondary is the mentalhealth benefit.
And we hope to donate money andbring awareness to Music Cares,
Backline.Care, Nucci Space inAthens, Georgia, which is very
(43:53):
near and dear to my heart.
Nucci Phillips was a musicianwho committed suicide, but his
mom died.
Found a warehouse and turned itinto a place with rehearsal
bins, free mental health care,once or twice a month, free
physical health care, coffeeshop, performances, auctions,
just a great community resource.
(44:14):
And we just want to help in anyway we can.
Part of the message that Ialways want to impart whenever I
speak to someone about thissubject is we just talk about
it.
The more we talk about it andthe more we can shed light
positive light or the fact thatyou're not alone and it's
important to talk about it tosomeone who may be suffering and
(44:36):
also bring about the knowledgeof the availability of
backline.care what music caresis doing also sweet relief and i
think we're going to see a lotmore of these types of
organizations and a lot moresort of organic reaching out to
where there will be a networkthere's a whole resource of
(44:58):
hotlines and internet sites withjust information.
And anyone who's been in anykind of recovery knows that the
most important tool you mighthave in a moment of crisis is a
cell phone with a number ofsomeone that says, don't
hesitate to call me.
And people have reached out, andI'm always very thankful when
(45:19):
they do.
SPEAKER_00 (45:20):
Yeah, it's really something very special and
something that is alwaysmemorable.
When you're able to talk to afriend during a really dark
time, and I've gone throughdepression, I've experienced
anxiety, so I know what it feelslike when you talk about the
delusions.
We call them lies thatdepression will tell you, like
(45:41):
your family is better offwithout you, or you're
worthless, or you're alone.
You feel alone.
That's the thing about thisdisorder is that even if you're
surrounded by people who loveyou, There's a disconnection
that happens and it's difficult.
I mean, if you could imaginebeing disconnected to music,
something that you love or beingdisconnected to your children,
(46:03):
it's very painful.
So opening up the discussion andall of the organizations that
you mentioned are on our websiteat checkaheadpodcast.com.
And of course, we're going toinclude the Neil Casale
Foundation.
I do feel like we're starting toall work together because we're
really all on the same mission.
which is helping people in themusic community find their
(46:25):
solutions for recovery.
Now, I'm really excited aboutHighway Butterfly, the songs of
Neil Casale that recentlydropped.
Can you tell me about some ofthe artists on that album and
what you want to do with it?
SPEAKER_01 (46:41):
There are 41 artists on this album, each one doing a
different Casale song, andbacking them up are over 100
other musicians involved.
Artists, Hall of Famers like BobWeir and Phil Lesh, Terrapin
Family Band, household nameslike Steve Earle, people you've
just beginning to hear a lotabout, Marcus King, Billy
(47:02):
Strings, Leslie Mendelsohn.
It goes on and on, and everybodydid such an amazing job, whether
it's Aaron Lee Tashin coming into interpret Neil's song,
Traveling After Dark, and thensticking around the next day to
play a scorching guitar solo onJesse Aycock's Losing End Again.
Everybody just came in withnothing but love and respect for
(47:25):
Neil.
This is about four or fivemonths after Neil passed away.
So a lot of us, especiallypeople who played in circles
around the sun with Neil, werestill hurting.
So to get together and recordthese songs was fellowship and
celebration and remembrance ofall the healing things that I
(47:48):
didn't get angry at Neil until ayear after he passed away.
I never was in denial.
It's obvious.
I was depressed about it, but Ikept myself busy.
I never bargained because it wastoo late to bargain.
So those stages of grief waspretty much anger and acceptance
was really all I was going tohave.
And it took me a while to getangry.
But as people came through thestudio making the record, some
(48:12):
barely knew Neil.
Billy Strings had met Neil at afestival.
They had a mutual admiration.
And Billy was talking about howhe was having a tough time
dealing with the pressure of hisfans expecting him to sort of
help them with their crises.
And I've got my own crises todeal with.
(48:32):
How do we do that?
And so we had a long talk aboutthese things and boundaries and
taking time, self-care, doingthe things.
For him, it's fishing.
He loves fishing.
Get away from the grind and Getsome air in your lungs.
And we had a wonderful day.
And then I got back to my hotelroom and Chris Robinson called
(48:53):
me and said, Neil hung himself.
I mean, that's blunt, but it'sthe truth.
And I think we have to be bluntwhen it comes to these things.
So Billy, to me, is important.
And having him be the firstartist to record his song for
Highway Butterfly wasvindication of not only an idea,
but an idea that Neil and Billyhad been working on.
(49:16):
Just to go back a little bit towhen we were talking about life
on the road and how it canaffect mental health, I think a
lot of people have one of twoways of thinking about musicians
on the road.
They either think it's aconstant party, like the three
hours of celebratoryentertainment that happens on
stage just continues on the tourbus and in the hotel rooms, and
(49:37):
maybe it does if you're Guns N'Roses in the 1989 tour, but we
can't keep that up forever, soThey either know that it's
drudgery and hard work, or theythink it's a 24-hour party.
But what they don't realizeoften is that no matter which
one of those it is, it's hard toget home.
(49:57):
A lot of musicians, they don'tknow what to do with themselves
when they're home, regardless ofwhether they have a family or a
side project or, I don't know,maybe they, like Ian Anderson of
Jethro Tull has a salmon farm.
But it's different, and it'sdifferent enough to where if you
aren't aware of What touringdoes to your muscles.
You're like an athlete at thetop of the game.
(50:19):
You come home and stop.
Your body is still doing thelong jump.
You're laying in bed going, whycan't I sleep?
But your body's muscles and theadrenaline that you would
associate with a routine ispreparing for a long jump.
I used to sit at home watchingSeinfeld and going, why do I
feel so anxious?
(50:39):
And finally it dawned on me.
That was when I would bepreparing for a show.
And so I For me, I wouldmedicate that part away.
I would self-medicate at home.
It got to where I wasself-medicating on the road, but
it wasn't because it was hard.
It wasn't hard for me to go tostage.
It wasn't hard for me to be in atour bus and a nice hotel.
(51:02):
It was boring.
Ronnie Millsaps, a countryartist, is famous for saying,
the gig is free.
You pay me for the schlep.
For the airplane ride and forthe endless hours on the bus and
sitting around in a hotel roomor at a venue experiencing what
they call hurry up and wait,where you have to be there at
four, but guess what?
Things are running late andyou're not going to do anything
(51:24):
until six, but you can't leaveand we don't serve food.
We do, however, serve alcohol.
Those things, I don't thinkeveryday people think about
that.
And so when the COVID shutdownhappened, it was not unlike
getting home from a tour.
And it's like, oh my God, whatdo I do with myself?
SPEAKER_00 (51:43):
And you said that at one point you were
self-medicating when you gothome.
How did you get out of that andget healthier?
It
SPEAKER_01 (51:52):
was like quicksand.
It looked like it might be niceto step on, and then it was a
slow descent until I was aboutto suffocate.
Substance abuse happens slowlyover time, and then it wants to
push your head under the water.
And I had what was commonlyreferred to as a moment of
clarity, where I was just like,I got into the music business so
(52:16):
that people couldn't tell mewhat to do.
Why am I letting a white powder,why am I letting a substance run
me like a puppet and telling mewhat to do?
This is dumb.
And I'm really lucky that I wokeup every day until I had that
revelation, and then I soughthelp.
(52:37):
And I went to a rehab and Ilearned some things.
I think it's all about fillingthe toolbox.
If I want to be better equippedto deal with things in a
different and more positive waythan I had in the past, I need a
better toolbox.
And that's what I learned frompeople who are like me.
(52:57):
And I'm not here to espouse12-step programs.
I'm here to espouse theexperience, strength, and hope
of other people who've beenthrough the same thing.
Because some of the bestmeetings I ever went to was
talking to somebody backstagewho had been through what I had
been through.
And so that's the long and shortof it.
(53:17):
I sunk into the muck until itwas up to my eyeballs.
And I pulled myself out.
And then I had a lot of peoplehelping me brush that muck off
and keeping me pointed in thedirection away from it.
And I will proudly say that mymental health was not the best.
That's why I startedself-medicating.
(53:38):
I didn't feel like I had anyoneto talk to.
I do believe that mental health,depression, and addiction are
all insidiously intertwined.
It's very important that in theHighway Butterfly record, we
have the information for theNeil Casale Foundation, which
then leads to more information.
It's important that there's thatlinkage there because when
(53:59):
you're floundering, the timeswhen I've been floundering in a
dark space, There might be amillion resources out there, but
you can only maybe see one ofthem.
And that's the one that can saveyour life.
SPEAKER_00 (54:10):
And sometimes when you're in that space, it's hard
to even reach out to one becauseyou're just exhausted.
You're tired and you just feellike nothing is going to work.
But that's the part where youreally have to push yourself and
keep trying.
And, you know, thank you so muchfor bringing Neil's music and
kind of resurrecting it andputting it out in a different
way with all his friends.
(54:32):
Because Even though Neil put out14 soul albums, he's not
necessarily a household name.
But I feel like this is givinghis songs new life through the
people that he loved most.
And that really is special.
So I hope everyone picks upHighway Butterfly, the songs of
Neil Casale.
And Dave Schools, I want to knowif there's anything else that
(54:55):
you would like to say about thefoundation or about mental
health in general.
SPEAKER_01 (55:00):
Let's just all talk.
Let's be brutally honest abouthow we feel.
It's the hardest thing in theworld to do, but let's give it a
shot.
Let musicians stick aroundlonger so that they can grace us
with their gifts.
SPEAKER_00 (55:14):
A big thank you to our musical guest, Jared Watson
of Dirty Heads, and Dave Schoolsof the Neil Casale Foundation
and Widespread Panic.
For more information on DirtyHeads, visit DirtyHeads.com.
Dirty Heads will be playing theCalifornia Roots Festival on May
26, and their Let's Get ItCrackin' tour starts in June
2022.
(55:36):
For more information on the NeilCasale Music Foundation and to
purchase Highway Butterfly, TheSongs of Neil Casale, visit
neilcasalemusicfoundation.org.
For more on Dave Scholl's band,Widespread Panic, and their
upcoming tour, visitwidespreadpanic.com.
So until next time, be brave.
Ask for help and be persistentin finding the mental help that
(55:59):
you need.
(56:20):
Thank you for your support andthank you for listening.
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