Mari Fong interviews musical guest Jesse Leach of Killswitch Engage, Times of Grace and The Weapon, and suicide prevention expert Dr. Dan Reidenberg of SAVE.org. Jesse Leach talks about how a toxic relationship triggered his anxiety and depression, how he came to realize the abuse, and what it took for him to finally break away.
Jesse talks about his mental health solutions which include therapy, micro-dosing, and power of nature. Next, world-renowned suicide prevention expert from SAVE.org, Dr. Dan Reidenberg, talks about how to spot the warning signs of someone who may be at risk for suicide. We also talk on what to do and say to that person that could possibly save a life. We play a clip of “The Burden of Belief,” the new single from Times of Grace’s album, Songs of Loss and Separation which dropped in July 2021.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
Welcome to the Check Your Head podcast.
The podcast where notablemusicians and experts share
their stories and solutions formental health and wellness.
I'm your host, Mari Fong, amusic journalist and life coach
for musicians.
And today I wanted to start bygiving a special thank you to
(00:21):
all the listeners of the CheckYour Head podcast.
Thank you so much for being alistener and for your reviews.
(00:55):
Now to our featured guests.
Have you ever been in a badrelationship where you felt
unappreciated, put down, or werefighting so much that you were
constantly anxious or depressed?
Our musical guest has been inthat relationship and finally
found his solutions to separatefrom toxic people, along with
ways to soothe his anxiety anddepression to find a better,
(01:17):
happier life.
Our musical guest today is aveteran in the metalcore scene,
a band with eight studio albumsand over four million records
sold.
Grammy nominated and consideredone of the early founders of
metalcore music.
Our guest today is Jesse Leach,lead singer and guitarist of
Killswitch Engage and Times ofGrace.
(01:39):
Jesse will not only share hissolutions for mental wellness,
but also a clip from The Burdenof Belief, a single from the New
Times of Grace album entitledSongs of Loss and Separation
that dropped on July 16, 2021.
Next, our featured mental healthexpert is an internationally
recognized leader and educatoron the topic of suicide, Dr.
(02:01):
Dan Reidenberg.
Dr.
Dan is also the ExecutiveDirector of SAVE.org, which
stands for Suicide Awareness,Voices of Education.
Dr.
Dan will share some of thewarning signs for someone who
may be at risk for suicide, andalso what we can do and say that
can possibly save a life.
But first, let's hear JesseLeach of Killswitch Engage and
(02:24):
Times of Grace share his story.
I want to congratulate you onthis new album, Songs of Loss
and Separation.
It sounds really personal toyou.
SPEAKER_04 (02:35):
Times of Grace, man.
That record, I would have to sayit's probably my best work to
date, if I could be so bold tosay such a thing.
And potentially a good therapyfor people who are suffering,
because I know it was goodtherapy for me.
For Adam and I, we were bothgoing through a a difficult
time.
Adam was dealing withdepression, and we were both
(02:57):
dealing with loss as well, whichis really ironic that the name
of the title is the same.
But yeah, I was going through apretty brutal divorce and just
realizing that you don't needsomebody in your life anymore
after many years of beingtogether.
So that was part of it.
And unraveling and rediscoveringwho I was alone, that entire
(03:17):
process is captured on thisrecord, as well as coming out on
the other side, finding a lightat the end of the tunnel.
Because the process of makingthis record was Oh, about a year
and a half, two years.
We really take our time withthis project because it is such
personal music and we couldn'thave it any other way.
I don't think we could write aTimes of Grace record without
(03:39):
some sort of tragedy orsomething heavy to go through.
And that's the beauty of thisproject.
I'm very proud of it.
And part of that is just it'stherapeutic to just let it out
and also to think that peoplewill hopefully find something to
relate to and find their owntherapy through this music.
SPEAKER_00 (03:57):
Well, you said something really great, which is
letting it out.
And that feels good to be honestand open and vulnerable.
And oftentimes that's difficultwhen you're dealing with mental
issues and mood disorders,because sometimes we can be
embarrassed or sometimes we feellike, gosh, I don't even feel
like myself right now.
I don't even want to go outsideand talk with people because I
(04:20):
could barely talk myself.
But that also connects people,that honesty and
SPEAKER_04 (04:26):
Yeah, I think it's important because I find for me
those times when I hear somebodysay something I can relate to
and I don't feel so alone,that's a huge thing.
That's huge.
Because it almost gives you abit of an exhale amidst what
you're going through.
You're reading something orhearing somebody say, yeah, I
get this.
It's such a relief.
(04:46):
And I've been through that somuch.
I continue to go through that.
That's why for me, it'ssomething important to share,
whether or not it's comfortableto do so.
SPEAKER_00 (04:54):
Yeah, I was reading, you were saying that loneliness
and disconnection of not feelinglike anyone understands, and
then finally finding thosepeople that do.
Where did you find those peoplefor yourself as you're going
through this mental healthjourney?
I
SPEAKER_04 (05:11):
think it all started for me as a...
teenager getting into hardcoremusic and punk rock and
eventually metal as well justthe social misfits especially
back then in the early 90sbefore the internet was all over
the place when you really if youwere disconnected you really
felt disconnected you know andgoing to a therapist back then
that wasn't really somethingthat was I mean it's still an
(05:33):
odd thing but it's a lot more inthe public dialogue than it was
back then so if you felt like anoutcast you were pretty outcast
it's like There was no onlineforum.
There was nothing to reach outto.
And the stigma behind calling asuicide hotline is like, that's
not me.
I would never do that, eventhough at times I was suicidal.
(05:53):
So finding punk rockers andhardcore kids and even ravers,
just subcultures, kids who wereinto subcultures, they were the
misfits.
Those are the people that youcould go out and have a lot of
fun with and do crazy stuff withand be yourself.
Be that person that doesn't fitinto the norm of Johnny and
Susie High School.
I never...
got along with any of thosenormal type of people.
(06:15):
I didn't get it.
I wasn't into sports.
I wasn't into going to dancesand doing all that stuff.
I didn't get it.
I didn't fit in.
So subcultures really was mystart.
But I didn't develop an actuallanguage or even admit to myself
that I was having issues tillprobably my 30s.
And that's when I started tostart to lose it a little bit.
(06:37):
And right around that time, Istarted to see people,
organizations coming up.
The more I dug online, the moreI found.
I think just learning what wasgoing on inside of my head,
having a language for it, thatwas the start of everything.
And it's a journey that Icontinue to go on to this day
and help me feel like I'm notalone.
(06:57):
And I'm so not alone.
There's so many of us areaffected by mental illness and
addiction and whatever.
SPEAKER_00 (07:03):
Yeah, absolutely true.
And it's not something thatnormally would come up in
conversation, but it's somethingthat's so important to talk
about, especially when yourecognize symptoms or behaviors
or words from others that cantip you off that something is
not quite right.
And you said that there was aturning point in your 30s.
(07:27):
It sounds like almost forced youto look at what was going on.
What was that experience?
incident or time in your lifeabout?
SPEAKER_04 (07:34):
Yeah.
In retrospect, it was definitelysomething that had to do with my
relationship at the time thatwas causing anxiety.
Because not all anxiety...
Listen, people have disordersand mental illness.
We all know this.
But sometimes you have outsidesources that those things.
And I was being triggered a lotby somebody who was pretty toxic
(07:56):
for me, somebody that justwasn't right for me.
I wasn't supposed to be withthat person.
And the energy that person wasgiving off was causing me a ton
of anxiety to the point wheresuicide seems like an option
because you're so tortured byit.
You just want peace.
And to get to that point whereyou are sort of accepting the
(08:17):
That taking yourself out wouldbe an option.
That's when you know you're in arough spot.
There's so many other ways Iknow now to cope with it or to
sever relationships or to haveenough self-love to just pick
yourself up and move on.
But when you're in the midst ofa toxic or abusive relationship,
It's hard to see outside of it.
(08:37):
And I knew things were startingto unravel for me back then.
And that's when I just reachedout for help to friends, to
people that I knew were in mycommunity, in the hardcore and
metal community, that weresaying to people, it's okay to
not be okay.
For example, it's one of thehashtags that is used for my
friend Johnny and Hope for theDay.
And I started to see my peersspeaking up about it.
(09:00):
So it became...
a necessity.
And then after that necessity, Isaw it as very much something I
needed to do, not just formyself, but for others.
And I did that through my lyricsas well.
I started to really injectmental health issues into my
lyrics with Kill, Switch, Engageand Times of Grace around that
(09:20):
time.
And since then, I've written aton of songs.
I mean, one that I've gottattooed on my arm here, I Am
Broken Too, which is the anthemfor letting people know that
you're not alone.
And initially just Being forcedinto that situation where I was
so desperate for release, sodesperate to figure out what the
hell was going on with me andwhy I was having this chronic
(09:42):
anxiety, which led todepression, which led to
suicidal thoughts and almostfantasizing about the peace that
death would give me.
Yeah, that's when I knew I hadsome real heavy issues to deal
with.
SPEAKER_00 (09:55):
I do understand what you're saying because when
you're in a lot of pain andnobody...
to see it from the outside ornobody seems to understand it.
You just want the pain to stop.
And sometimes when you're inthat dark place, you feel like
I've tried everything andnothing is working, but there's
(10:17):
always hope and there's alwayssolutions.
And that's it is that sometimeswe don't know what those
solutions are, but you talkedabout something I thought was
really important was that youwere in a toxic relationship to
the point where it was beingabusive.
And I'm bringing this up becauseI think this happens a lot.
SPEAKER_02 (10:36):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (10:37):
Why do you think you stayed in that relationship for
so long to the point where youwere having suicidal thoughts?
SPEAKER_04 (10:45):
Yeah, it's really hard.
At the time when I was goingthrough it, it's crazy because
you have this trauma bond withthis person.
What you think is love is yourdefinition of love is so warped
at that point.
Because for me, it was 18 yearswith this person.
This isn't just a couple ofyears.
This is like a half a lifetime.
(11:06):
And the things that go on thatare unhealthy, you're so used to
them.
So it's almost like, oh, this iswhat it's like to be in a
marriage or a relationship.
This is what happens.
And I didn't speak much aboutthat stuff.
But the more I started to talkto people and the more I started
to speak with other people whowere in similar situations, you
(11:27):
realize, oh, this isn't whateverybody does.
And then I started to see otherrelationships in a different
light and started to realize howmuch work and how much pain was
being caused.
I think when you're abused,You're just that.
You're abused.
It's hard to see outside ofthat.
And then when you finally pullout of it, you look back and
(11:47):
there was a good chunk of timeafter my separation and divorce
where I was like, how?
How did I stay that long?
How?
And I still can't come to gripswith it.
So it's really hard to answerthat question.
But that just goes to show youwhen you're abused, sometimes
you don't realize how bad it istill you get out.
And that's the scary part.
I know people that have gottenput in the hospital by their
(12:10):
spouses.
bloody in the hospital, stillmaking excuses for the behavior.
And thankfully with myrelationship, it wasn't physical
for the most part, the abuse, itwas more mental, but it does a
number on your head.
It really messes you up.
And if you already are dealingwith mental illness and then
you're in a relationship that'stoxic with somebody who's
(12:30):
triggering you constantly, itgets pretty dark and you get
really confused.
What's right, what's wrong,what's up, what's down.
You forgive chronic behaviorsthat after so many times, it's
not a mistake anymore.
Yeah, all those thingscompounded.
You just get into this reallyfragile, strange state where I
(12:51):
was finding excuses usinglanguage that was very defensive
when the talk of what's going onwith me came up.
So it's something I had toreally deprogram and unravel
from.
And I still sift through thoseissues and I still have issues
with anxiety and trust issues.
Like that's still there.
It's just learning how to dealwith them and allowing yourself
(13:12):
to, to relax a little bit and totrust and to find peace again.
So it's been quite a journey,but yeah, that's a difficult
question to answer.
And I'm sure many people whodeal with abuse would say the
same thing.
You're kind of just blind to it.
SPEAKER_00 (13:26):
Yeah.
You know, it reminds me of oneof your songs, which is Medusa.
And you say it's about anabusive, broken relationship.
And one of the things you saidis keeping your heart and spirit
alive after feeling broken andbeaten down.
You know, I know your life isdifferent now because you just
(13:47):
mentioned you have a girlfriend.
SPEAKER_02 (13:49):
Oh,
SPEAKER_00 (13:50):
yeah.
How did you keep your heart andspirit alive after that
separation and so many years ofthat?
SPEAKER_04 (13:58):
Yeah, I think...
my sort of survival skillsstarted to kick in, I would say,
years before the actual divorceand split up, on tour with my
band, Living My Dream.
That's something that reallyhelped, number one, pursuing my
dreams and being out theretraveling and being around my
(14:19):
friends, seeing new things everyday, change of scenery.
That whole lifestyle isbeautiful.
It can be great for your mentalhealth, as tough as it can be.
On the flip side, if you've gota great home life and you miss
your home life, if you're outthere escaping something, it's
pretty amazing.
So that helped.
And then the days off in randomcities or towns or countries, I
(14:41):
would really take my time and dowhat I wanted to do.
So I would escape and have metime.
And I would take myself out todinner.
I started to find self-love.
I started to figure out who Iwas despite my scars and despite
my abuse.
And it sounds cheesy, but theonly way I can say this is I
started to fall in love with whoI am and realizing that, yeah, I
(15:03):
do deserve good love.
I do deserve all these things.
You know, I learned very quicklythat I had to find self-love.
And that's truly what led me tofinally putting my foot down and
going, I'm done with this.
So it was years of just figuringout who I was and learning how
to love myself again and givingme the strength to just be like,
(15:26):
no, I'm not putting up with thisanymore.
Once I started to say that outloud, I saw the spiral happen.
She went one way, I went theother.
And I was like, you know what?
Good.
You know, there was a moment,and Medusa's is about this.
There was a moment where it wasjust staring me in the face.
I was looking in the eyes ofthis demonic energy, if you
(15:48):
will, and saying to myself,you're not going to kill me.
I'm not going down with you.
I'm out.
I'm out.
And the spoken word part in thatsong Medusa's directly about
that.
Seeing the situation for what ittruly is and not having that
film of abuse or that film ofguilt or Whatever the case may
be, when you're carrying it withyou for so long, when it's
(16:10):
lifted off of your eyes and yousee it for what it is.
And to me, Medusa was a perfectanalogy for like, whoa, my heart
is turning into stone.
I'm becoming a dark figurebecause of this.
And I won't let that happen.
So at the end of Medusa, youwon't kill the love in me.
From demon eyes, I'm finallyfree.
You won't kill the love in me.
(16:31):
It's just...
The whole song is dark and rightat the end there, when I had to
scream that line, I couldn'tjust sing it.
It was like, I'm free.
I'm out.
And that's one of the bestdecisions I've made in my life.
And that did lead me to whereI'm now, where this is the
happiest I've ever been that Ican remember.
And I'm with somebody who isamazing and builds me up and
(16:54):
challenges me and has beenthrough the ringer herself with
her issues and herrelationships.
So we both met as broken humanbeings in a very dark place and
very quickly found love and weare both doing great.
It's amazing what actual loveand trust and someone who
(17:15):
supports you can do for you.
So it's been a hell of ajourney, but I couldn't be
happier and I wouldn't change athing.
As crazy as she got, it made mewho I am, you know?
SPEAKER_02 (17:26):
Well,
SPEAKER_00 (17:29):
I'm really glad that Your life is different now that
that was the light at the end ofthe tunnel is finding a better
relationship and realizing thatthese things that are broken
with us actually provide thecolor within people.
It provides part of theirpersonality and provides also
compassion.
And one thing that you said wasyou found compassion.
(17:52):
the love for yourself and getout of a relationship because of
the love that you found foryourself.
I do think that's the core to alot of issues in life.
And some people never get out ofthat.
They never learn to lovethemselves or forgive
themselves.
How were you able to do that foryourself?
(18:12):
Was that something you did onyour own?
Was that something you realizedor therapy or how did you come
to that conclusion?
SPEAKER_04 (18:20):
Yeah, it's a mixture of things.
The first thing that I did thatreally helped me was riding my
bicycle.
So it sounds funny, but anyonewho knows, exercise is
incredible for the brain.
And I've never been a guy thatcan just go to a gym and stare
at a mirror and pump iron.
I can't do that, just not who Iam.
I'm a nature guy.
(18:41):
So I actually found an old10-speed bicycle while recording
the first Times of Grace recordin the back of the studio in
Western Mass, like halfway inthe stream and in the woods,
just overgrown.
It was this old bicycle.
10 speed, probably from the 80s,like just a huffy, like not a
good bike at all.
And I took it home.
I don't know.
(19:01):
It was just something about it.
I was walking, writing lyrics,and I saw it.
I'm like, I'm going to take thishome and fix it up.
I remember that first bike ride.
I'm in tears, and I feel like akid again.
It was this moment of like, whyhave I not been riding bikes for
– This is amazing.
And where I used to live inYonkers, New York, there was a
huge bike trail.
And I just started doing thatbike trail.
(19:23):
Every other day when I wouldstart to feel anxiety or panic
or anything pop up, I would geton this bike trail.
And I'd go further and further.
And finally, I was doing 20miles, and I ended up buying a
nice bike.
And that became such a buzz, theendorphins that kicked in.
I'd get off these bike rides,and my anxiety would dissipate.
I felt better.
I felt stronger physically.
(19:43):
And that sort of translated intomentally as well.
And that was the first thingthat I was like, oh, this is
good for me.
This is a healthy habit that Ineed to make.
Instead of drinking myself intoa black hole, which I was
definitely self-medicating a lotduring this time.
And it actually reduced mydesire to drink too.
So cycling has stuck with me tothis day.
(20:04):
I did it last week when I wasfeeling off and it really
helped, especially with anxiety.
It's huge for anxiety.
Depression, that's hard becausesometimes...
I won't even make it out thedoor to get to my bike on those
dark days because I stillsuffer.
My life is good, but my mentalillness didn't go anywhere.
I still have to manage it anddeal with it.
For me, if I go into a darkthing, it might take a week to
(20:25):
come out.
It's hard.
So physical activity is huge.
And then starting to talk tofriends who have been through
similar situations.
And that did eventually lead meto a therapy session, which was
one of those mind-blowingmoments when I sat with somebody
who was educated.
and empathetic and caring, butalso firm and just speaking
(20:47):
about it, having a conversationthat's ongoing, reading about
it, researching, and again,exercise, swimming, hiking,
biking, things that just reallyhelp reset my brain.
SPEAKER_00 (20:59):
It takes a while for someone to get from a mood
disorder to getting therapy.
Was there something inparticular that happened that
said, okay, I'm making the call.
I'm going to try this out.
What was that for you?
SPEAKER_04 (21:15):
Yeah.
And it's funny too, because Iactually made it public.
I mean, there were articleswritten about it.
I had just moved up here fromBrooklyn.
I was living in Brooklyn, NewYork, and I moved up here where
I live now in Woodstock up herein the Catskill Mountains.
It was the first weekend I wasalone and I went out to do a
hike and And I had this momentof darkness once again, where I
(21:36):
was looking down this waterfalland thinking to myself, yeah,
this might be the way to do it.
And I was back there again tothat dark place where, you know,
but it was different this time.
There was something there.
There was a different voice oflike, no, look where you are.
Like you're in this beautifulplace.
There is beauty.
There's more like life has somuch to offer you.
What do you want to call that?
(21:57):
God, divine intervention, or,you know, I don't know what it
was, but it, I wasn't alone atthat moment.
I know I wasn't.
And that's when it just dawnedon me.
I was like, why have I neverdone this therapy thing?
I've got to reach out.
So I reached out for help.
And thankfully, where I live,there's a bunch of healers,
whether you're talking aboutsound therapy, which I did,
(22:19):
singing bowls, I didacupuncture, I did massage
therapy, and then I finally wentto see and talk to an actual
therapist.
recommended by another healerhere.
And I said, I'm going to do allof it.
Any suggestion somebody gives meto figure out how to move
forward with my life, I'm goingto do it.
I'm not naysaying it anymore.
I'm not going, I got this.
(22:41):
I just surrendered.
And I said, whatever someoneputs in front of me, I will do
it.
So I did all of it.
And all of it was incredible.
Acupuncture, eh, not so much.
It was a little weird.
A little uncomfortable, butapparently it's great for you.
So that one therapist justchanged everything.
In a very quick amount of time.
(23:28):
Thankfully for me, the first onewas the right one.
And it blew my mind.
And I walked out of theresobbing for joy because I felt
this relief.
Somebody who validated what Iwent through and gave me a
language, like the word abusenever entered my mouth.
And she said, you have beenabused.
(23:48):
You're mentally abused.
The way you're speaking, I cantell somebody who really has
beaten you down.
She used better words than that,but...
That was one of those ahamoments like, I'm an abused
spouse.
That sucks.
And it's funny where societydoesn't normally put males in
that category.
Usually, it's the female.
(24:09):
And for me, it was like, I hadto own that.
And I remember going online andbeing like, hey, I just sent all
my fans.
I'm going away.
I'm not going to be on socialmedia because I was super active
back then.
And I just announced it.
And I wasn't embarrassed aboutit.
People made fun of me.
I'm sure there was snickering.
I read a few articles that werelike, he's lost it.
(24:30):
But the amount of people thatempowered to actually go see a
therapist and to say thatthey're not okay, it was one of
those earth-shattering momentswhere I'm like, oh, I've got to
do this more.
I've got to keep talking aboutthis.
When I came out of thetherapist's office, I was like,
that's it.
From now on, I call myself amental health advocate.
I'm going to talk about this.
I'm going to work withorganizations.
(24:50):
When someone asks me tovolunteer time, I'm going to do
it.
So I haven't said no to anyopportunity that I've had to
continue to talk about mentalillness.
And it's been so rewarding, notonly just for my own walk, but
friends and family, people thatI grew up with that would reach
out to me and say, hey, becauseof you, this is what I did.
(25:11):
And I've been dealing withdepression for 25 years.
I didn't know what it was.
So stuff like that, it justconstantly keeps coming back
around to remind me that this isimportant.
And I've got to do it.
And I love to do it.
It's so fulfilling.
I go to bed at night thinking,at least I'm pitching in.
It really helps my mental stateof mind to know that I'm
helping.
And in turn, that helps me.
(25:32):
It's a win-win situation.
SPEAKER_00 (25:35):
Yeah, I agree.
I agree.
I feel the same way.
I feel very passionate about it.
Because when you've been in areally dark place, and you come
out of it, and you do find yoursolutions like you have, you
want to give that to somebodyelse, because you know how much
it can hurt.
You don't want anyone to gothrough that.
You know, I read something thatI thought was interesting.
(25:56):
You said that your grandfatherprobably had bipolar, but it was
put under the rug.
And then In high school, youstarted to go through some
hormonal changes and were goingthrough high highs and some low
lows.
Did you ever feel like youmight've been having symptoms of
bipolar or was that eversomething that crossed your
mind?
SPEAKER_04 (26:16):
So as far as my grandfather's concerned, I
couldn't figure out why grandpawould just go into his room and
watch TV for weeks.
And then he'd come out and he'dput on like a summer dress
because he was a funny guy.
He was a champion water skierand he'd get on water skis and
go around the pond where mygrandparents live with a dress
on and pass out frozen Snickersbars to the kids.
(26:38):
He was the life of the party andthen he would just disappear.
So the high highs and low lows.
So I started to go through that,but When I was going through
high school, the amount of drugsI was putting into my body, I
wouldn't have known what wasgoing on with me because I was
self-medicating for a long timewith not just marijuana and
drinking, but like psychedelics,like lots of acid.
(27:02):
So I didn't know what way it wasup for a long time there.
I think that hindered my growth.
But I look back on that and Idon't regret any of that either
because I discovered so muchabout myself.
Bipolarism is something I'vebeen concerned with, but I am
not bipolar.
And if I am, it's minor.
I'm depressive and anxiety.
(27:25):
But it does run in my family,and some of my family members do
have it.
SPEAKER_00 (27:29):
Submedication is something that happens often,
and also medication is somethingthat can happen.
Was there ever any trial anderror for you with medication?
SPEAKER_04 (27:39):
Yeah, I briefly tried medication for depression.
I just...
Didn't like the way it made mefeel.
And I didn't give it more of achance.
I've got friends who, if they'renot on it, it's bad.
It's dangerous.
And they have found the rightdosage where they don't get
numb.
See, I was feeling numb toomuch.
And I didn't want that at thatpoint in my life.
(28:00):
And now I don't numb anymore.
I want to feel it.
I want to work through it.
I want to talk about it.
For me, medication can either besomething you stay on or
something you're on temporarilyjust to get yourself right.
And I think I probably couldhave benefited from staying on
something for a small amount oftime to sort of write myself but
i never did that i think it waspart of me just being stubborn
(28:22):
like no i'm going to do it on myown which it's the long road but
i'm glad i took that but thatbeing said i've got dear friends
that need that medication umdealing with more severe stuff
And I've got friends who've beenon it temporarily and they come
off, they wean off it and theneurons or whatever have
connected differently.
And that's what it is too.
(28:42):
I've been learning so much aboutthe pathway of neurons and how
the brain works and the pathwayto anxiety and what makes you
spiral and triggers and allthese amazing terminologies that
I've been learning, especiallyanxiety.
Anxiety to me is so complex.
SPEAKER_02 (28:57):
It's
SPEAKER_04 (28:57):
so broad.
And a lot of the behaviors thatAre based off anxiety.
And I never knew that I've gotfriends too, who get snappy and
angry.
And there's a whole bunch ofanger that's tied to anxiety.
And I never connected those dotsto even just in the past couple
of years.
And I have a friend of mine whoalways loses his mind and gets
(29:18):
so angry.
And I'm like, Hey man, take itfrom somebody who's got it.
You're dealing with anxiety.
And once I gave him thatlanguage and he was humble
enough to look it up, andeventually get on medication and
like changed his whole world,rocked his world.
Everybody knew him as this guywas just explosive and angry and
don't piss him off.
(29:38):
And now he's, he still has hismoments, but for the most part,
he's a pretty balanced guy.
I have a very anxious brain andthat's what spirals me into
depression as well.
So the power of getting to learnthe language and knowing what
works for you, whether it'smedication or not medication or
all those tools, like that'sjust, So powerful.
(29:58):
It's so powerful.
SPEAKER_00 (30:01):
It's really interesting too.
I mean, we have experts come onto the podcast and I learn
something new every single timeI do an interview and I'm just,
my mind is blown by some of thetherapies and the research part
that you're doing is soimportant because it's very
individual for each person, whatthey're going through.
SPEAKER_04 (30:20):
Totally.
Yeah.
I agree with that a hundredpercent.
And that's the beauty of talkingabout it.
That's the beauty of being in acommunity of people or being
online or having a podcast whereyou can continue that education
and wisdom through experienceand dealing with people and
hearing other people's storiesand having those aha moments
where you're like, oh, I get it.
(30:41):
Yeah, that's beautiful.
And I love that we have that.
And that's why this conversationis so important to continue and
to normalize is because we Itcould potentially save lives.
It could potentially savesomebody from getting to that
point where they're eventhinking about suicide.
Because there's so many thingsto do.
There's so many options.
There's so many beautiful thingsthat can happen to you to
(31:04):
prevent you from getting to thatplace.
And 99% of that is just talkingabout it.
SPEAKER_00 (31:09):
There are people that say, you know what, I'm
going to do it my way.
I'm doing it my way.
They get very stubborn aboutwanting to Turn to a
professional.
And the thing with mentalsituations and mood disorders is
that it's so complex.
There's no way that someone canreally have that kind of
(31:29):
knowledge to deal with it.
What do you say to somebody whosays, you know what, I'm going
to try it my way.
I can do it after years andyears of trying.
How do you convince that person?
SPEAKER_04 (31:41):
That's difficult because you've got to want the
help.
You can't force it.
But what I would say is, topeople is, would you want to
spend 10 years figuring out yourissues or maybe two years?
The fact is, if you reach out tosomebody and you're humble
enough to just accept that helpand give it a shot, what's the
worst that could happen?
(32:02):
You don't like your therapistand you stop or you switch.
It's not that big of a deal, isit?
But you could fast track this.
You could truly gain so muchmore wisdom and reduce your
suffering if you just acceptsome help.
I think that's the bottom linewith it, is how bad do you want
to deal with your issues?
And some people don't want tohear it, but I think if you
(32:25):
dangle that in front of theirface, if they truly are
suffering and you want toalleviate that suffering...
What's the backside, the darkside to just seeing a therapist?
I mean, the worst case scenariois you stop seeing them.
SPEAKER_03 (32:37):
Right, right.
SPEAKER_04 (32:39):
People say money, and it's like, okay, well,
money.
I mean, how much do you careabout your mental health?
And that's the thing, too, ispeople don't prioritize.
Because there comes a time whenyou're dealing with this where
you need to put yourself firstfor a while.
You need to be selfish becauseyou're no good self.
to the people that you love orthat surround you that need you
and want to know you're doingyour best if you're not doing
(33:02):
okay.
And that's what I have learnedto do is I have moments where I
dig my heels in and I tellpeople I'm canceling plans.
I'm not going to do this.
I'm uncomfortable with this.
And putting up those boundariesand protecting my mental
well-being has been huge becauseI would just say yes to
everything.
And I'm a people pleaser, whichis part of...
(33:23):
my personality and I'll peopleplease to the point where it's a
detriment to my mental healthand I'll start resenting people
and I get angry and all thesethings start to happen.
So once I just started to stickup for myself and that's it, you
have to prioritize it.
Do you really wanna get better?
Do you wanna navigate this?
Well, here's some things you cando.
If you're gonna be stubbornabout it, it might take you
three or four times longer toget to where you could if you
(33:46):
just accepted some help.
SPEAKER_00 (33:48):
Right, and making yourself a priority.
By taking control.
And that's a hard part, too, isto take control and actually
realize that I don't want to saybeing manipulated, but
oftentimes if we don't takecontrol, other people's wants
and needs surpass our own.
And that could be detrimental tous if we are not conscious of
it.
(34:10):
You know, one thing that wasreally interesting is you were
talking about using mushroomsand micro dosing.
Is that something that you stillare doing and believe in?
SPEAKER_04 (34:22):
Yeah, absolutely.
I'm a firm believer inmicrodosing.
And I always have to prefacethis with, obviously, some of
that stuff is illegal, so yougot to be careful with that.
But just because it's illegaldoesn't mean that it doesn't
help.
There's a lot of politicalreasons behind some of this
stuff being illegal.
But a mushroom that grows out ofthe ground that has been used
for thousands of years by ourancestors for various spiritual
(34:45):
practices is It is a beautifuland amazing tool if used
properly.
Microdosing, and a lot of peopledon't know, you're talking about
very small amounts.
We're not talking about seeingpsychedelic images and losing
yourself and freaking out.
There's none of that at all.
For example, if I'm going to goon a hike on a Saturday, I'll
wake up, have my breakfast, havemy coffee, and I'll take a small
(35:07):
piece of a mushroom, a cap or astem, small, and I'll munch on
that just as I hit the trail.
And within an hour and a half orso, it's this calmness that
washes over you.
It's not intense at all.
It's just a very calm feeling.
And the best way I coulddescribe it, it's like someone's
giving you a shoulder rub andyou're just like, oh, there it
(35:29):
is.
So nice.
And that'll last for a goodcouple hours.
And then for the next fewdays...
That residual stays.
My social anxiety, my anxiety,it just calms down, and I see
the world slightly different,and I feel more wonderment
towards nature, and I feel morecreative.
(35:49):
And again, this is slight, butif you're microdosing regularly,
which I have for, I would say,going on five years now, and
I'll take breaks.
I'll take breaks where I don'ttouch it at all.
I'm a firm believer in it.
I think it's absolutelywonderful.
It can change everything andhelp you be more engaged, more
present, more appreciative, andagain, more creative.
(36:09):
It's helped me with writer'sblock and I've gotten off it by
microdosing.
I've been in really dark placesand I'll microdose and I come
out of it so much quicker.
than if I didn't do that.
So to me, it's nature'smedicine.
But you got to be really carefulwith that.
You have to know who you'regetting it from.
You have to know the sciencebehind it, how much.
So there's a lot that goes intoit.
You can't just jump in and go,yeah, I'm going to microdose.
(36:31):
Don't.
Don't take it.
Because if you take too much andyou're not in a good mental
state, it can exacerbate thatsituation.
So you've got to be reallycareful with that.
But I'm a firm believer in it.
I think nature provides us,whether that's cannabis,
edibles.
I can't smoke anything becauseit's my voice.
But cannabis is beautiful too.
certain amounts and certainstrains.
Do your research though, forsure.
(36:53):
And then be careful of thelegalities.
SPEAKER_00 (36:56):
Yeah, there's definitely things you have to
think about there.
Now you mentioned edibles also.
Is that something that you do onoccasion or how does that play a
part with your mental health?
SPEAKER_04 (37:08):
Yeah, that's definitely on occasion.
Because with marijuana edibles,that can cause anxiety big time
for me.
So I have to know what strain itis, how many milligrams.
That stuff is super importantbecause some of the worst
feelings in places I've everbeen were for taking too many
and too high of a dosage in thewrong type of edible.
(37:30):
That can be bad if you've gotanxiety.
It can cause panic attacks,which it did for me.
So yeah, when I find the rightdosage and the right edible,
because I've experimented with abunch of different types, and I
like to make it myself too if Ican.
Because I like to make sure it'sorganic, doesn't have chemicals
in it.
There's so many factors that gointo this, but I try to be as
healthy as I can.
(37:51):
So recently, a friend of minegave me these little caramel
ones.
They're really nice, and I justbite like a little one-fourth
piece off, and it's justperfect.
It's just a nice, warm, fuzzy,relaxed feeling.
Anxiety goes away.
I'm thinking clearer.
I have aha moments.
It's really good medicine.
but it's different foreverybody.
So it's trial and error forsure.
(38:12):
And I would always say startsmall.
So everything in moderation, Ibelieve that's where I'm at
these days, everything inmoderation.
SPEAKER_00 (38:21):
Yeah, that's good advice.
You know, one thing I read wasthat when you were going through
your depression and anxiety,that you would mention it to
people and they would say thingslike, Oh, snap out of it.
It's not that bad.
You're overreacting.
All of those things that can beso hurtful when you're not doing
(38:43):
well.
If somebody came up to you todayand said that to you, like, I'm
not feeling well.
I feel like I'm depressed.
What would you say to them?
SPEAKER_04 (38:52):
Talk to me about it.
What's going on?
Sit there and listen.
I've had those moments.
I've had those moments with thefans and it stops me in my
tracks.
And I'm like, okay.
I'm going to make time rightnow.
That's happened to me where Iwill say out loud because this
person's saying it out loud.
Give me a few minutes, guys.
I'll get to everybody.
And within two to five minutes,just that person telling their
(39:15):
story, you can almost see theexhale.
Like they just needed to sharethat.
And sometimes that's all it is.
It's just listening.
And you don't always have togive advice.
You don't always have to try tofix it.
And that's something I had tolearn.
It's something I'm stilllearning.
Being present to someone whenthey're speaking.
without the, you're ready to saysomething, you're ready to
(39:37):
counteract, you're ready toargue, you're ready to fix or
give advice.
Most people do that.
I was definitely, I'm stillpartially one of those people.
I stop myself and I look attheir face and I watch their
body language and I just, I'mpresent.
And then I will interject withthings, letting them know I'm
listening.
Yeah, I hear you.
(39:57):
Oh man, that's terrible.
That stuff is powerful.
If you're just listening tosomebody talk, That could be the
difference between a really badnight and a night where they're
like, oh, I'm not so alone here.
And if it's a dear friend, spendthe evening with them, go take
them out to dinner.
And it's important to givepeople that time if you can,
(40:17):
because that could make a hugedifference.
SPEAKER_00 (40:21):
Right.
It not only shows you care, butit allows them to let out.
everything that they've beenholding in and just like when
you go to a metal show or one ofyour shows kids are going nuts
they're in the mosh pit that's arelease at a show it's a
physical release it's anemotional release but listening
to somebody is a release ofwhat's honestly going on with
(40:46):
them.
And I do think that once we'rereally honest with ourselves and
honest with somebody else thatis caring and compassionate,
that really can make thedifference between somebody
getting help and even going foranother day.
Because depression does bringalong thoughts, suicidal
thoughts.
Whether we like it or not, it'spart of the condition.
(41:06):
And if we start believing thosethoughts, of course it could be
fatal.
And we don't want that.
We don't want to believe thosethoughts that really are lies
that depression is telling you.
SPEAKER_04 (41:20):
Yeah, 100%.
Because when you go throughthose situations and you come
out of them and you look back onthem, there's a part of you that
doesn't understand how you gotthere.
You're like, how did I get tothat point?
And I think that's been thewhole journey for me is
understanding how you get tothat point and how you can
prevent getting to that point.
And suicide is the end game.
(41:41):
There's no turning back fromthat.
There's no turning back.
You can do stupid things.
You can make poor decisions andlearn your lesson.
But with suicide, it's likethere's no lesson to be learned.
That's it.
So that's, to me, been mybiggest motivator for speaking
up is trying to prevent peoplefrom that.
And then you get to somebody whois in that dark place, finds the
(42:04):
way out.
They become...
a catalyst for change.
They become somebody who's goingto help the next person.
That's the beauty of the peopleI meet in this field, is there's
so much compassion and love.
Some of the sweetest, mostkind-hearted, amazing, solid
human beings are people who workin the mental health field and
have become friends of mine.
(42:24):
They're like-minded people.
And that's what's beautifulabout it.
If you're driven by demons tothis dark place, and you find
your angel to help pull you upout of it, you're going to
spread the word.
You're going to be like, oh,there is help.
I got help.
You can get help.
Here's how it works.
Let's talk about this shit.
That's powerful.
And it's an energy thatcontinues to reciprocate.
(42:46):
And once you get into thatenergy, that beautiful
reciprocated energy of peoplewho work in the mental health
field, it's addictive.
You want to be around thesepeople and you want to help
because it just fulfills yoursoul.
It's a beautiful cycle thatstarts once you're pulled out of
that dark place and you see thelight, you can't not talk about
it.
(43:07):
It's like being born again,Christian, you know, I can't
stop talking about Jesus.
Like I get it.
Yep.
I get it.
SPEAKER_00 (43:13):
Yeah.
And what you're saying aboutgive and take is the perfect
thing with anything you lovereally is this beautiful give
and take, you know, giving andreceiving that can also relate
to, you know, loving partner andfriendships and things like
that.
And There are times in our lifewhere we thought something was a
(43:34):
good friend or something wasgood for us.
And it may have been at onepoint, but things change.
People change or things getclearer to you.
You change and people may bedetrimental to us to be able to
recognize that and part withthem.
And it's hard.
I think even when we part withsomething that is not good for
(43:57):
us, there's grieving sometimes.
Because it was part of our lifefor a long time.
And having to go through thatprocess and come out of it and
be a better person and havebetter experiences is really the
part that makes it all worth it,right?
SPEAKER_04 (44:14):
Yeah, that and protection of yourself.
The whole learning to read thesigns with friendships,
especially new friendships,which I'm very wary when I make
new friends.
But when you've got people whoare latching on to you that...
are not contributing to yourfriendship.
I call them vampires,bloodsuckers, these people who
just, they just drain you.
(44:35):
And I've had enough of thosepeople in my life and through my
circle of friends where you justget to that point where you just
can't, you can't invest energyin that anymore.
And as difficult as it is, youdon't want to hurt anyone's
feelings, but you just can't doit.
I think a lot of people strugglewith that.
We all have those people in ourlives that are just, they're not
good for you.
And the best thing you can dois, especially if you're
(45:00):
suffering, is cut them off.
And it sounds cruel, but man,some of the best decisions I've
ever made are just deadingpeople.
Like, I don't wish you harm.
I'm not angry.
Just go.
Go that way.
I don't need it anymore.
Easier said than done, but whata crucial power move it is for
your soul.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (45:19):
You've talked a lot about your life, and I want to
focus on how you are today andwhat makes you happy.
SPEAKER_04 (45:27):
Yeah, I was talking about this recently.
Time.
It's something that I've alwaystaken for granted, especially
when you have a life that isnonstop.
The life of a touringmusician...
you can't catch your breath.
You're out for a month and ahalf, two months, you're back
(45:48):
for two weeks, and you're backout for two months, three
months.
As amazing as that is tosomebody who's going through it,
and then people from the outsidebeing like, you live the ideal
life, rock star, I get all ofit.
I get it, but it's tough.
It's really tough.
And you miss out on so manythings, so many moments.
(46:10):
And one thing I was saying rightbefore The world shut down and I
was forced to stay home.
I remember venting to mygirlfriend with tears in my eyes
saying, all I want to do is justbe here long enough to watch the
seasons change.
I want to see winter turn tospring.
(46:30):
Something so simple and it seemsso funny to some people, but I
want enough time to watch aseason change.
And little did I know, I wouldget my wish.
And at first, it was hard todeal with because I'm so not
used to staying still.
And you go through the processof, wow, this is my life now.
The world's going to shit.
What are we going through?
All the anxieties.
(46:52):
And then I finally got to apoint where I saw the seasons
change.
And my girlfriend reminded me,hey, do you remember what you
said six months ago when youwere exhausted from the road?
Here you are.
And it was like a light bulbwent off in my head.
And I was like, oh, yeah.
I've got time.
I don't have a schedule.
I don't have any tours.
(47:13):
For now, my bills are beingpaid, thankfully, because I had
some money put away.
So there was a chunk of timewhere I was able to just be
still and go out in nature andwatch bees pollinate the
flowers, birds.
And I would spend hours verymeditatively sitting, sitting by
a stream and just listening andwatching.
(47:36):
And it became this ritual, whichis very much a part of what I
need nowadays.
I do it on a regular basis nowbecause I've realized what a
luxury that is.
Who gets to do that?
You got people pulling you inall these different directions.
And that was my life forever.
And this past year and a half orso, I experienced for the first
time, absolute, completeZen-like stillness.
(47:58):
And time has become such aprecious thing to me.
Taking moments for myself to beat peace and having a sense of
gratitude for all the thingsthat have been bestowed upon me.
Those two things are superimportant to me now.
And I will continue to practicethem.
SPEAKER_00 (48:14):
Hopefully we can continue these wonderful things
that we've learned in thepandemic and have a nice,
beautiful hybrid of being ableto enjoy the outside world and
also keep that inside worldreally nice and beautiful too.
SPEAKER_04 (48:31):
That's the plan.
I like that.
Hybrid.
I like that.
I'm going to steal that.
Hybrid me.
I know.
When I get back on the road, I'ma hybrid now.
That's good.
I like that.
It's a gift.
Every morning when we wake up,it is a gift.
And if you view it as such, withgratitude in your heart, it'll
change your whole day.
I promise you.
SPEAKER_00 (48:50):
Next up, we have the world-renowned expert on suicide
prevention, who also receivedthe Service to Humanity Award as
a Champion of Change byPresident Barack Obama.
Our expert today is Dr.
Dan Ridenberg.
Dr.
Dan also heads up the nonprofitSave.org, which stands for
Suicide Awareness, Voices ofEducation.
(49:11):
Dr.
Dan will share with us the keywarning signs and behaviors of
someone who may be at risk forsuicide, and also what we can do
and say to someone at risk thatcan possibly save a life.
You know, Jesse Leach talkedabout the importance of
listening to others, especiallywhen they're going through a
tough time.
But it's also really importantto know what to look for if
(49:34):
somebody is hurting and also howto respond to that person.
So first of all, what are someof the warning signs of someone
who may be at risk for suicide?
SPEAKER_01 (49:44):
Some of those risk factors might be family history
of mental health issues, familyhistory of chemical health
issues, family history ofsuicide.
We have warning signs.
These are the things that weknow that people have done in
the past prior to their suicide.
The ones that are most importantare, number one, anybody
communicating their intent todie.
(50:04):
Now, most people don't just comeout and say, I'm going to go
kill myself tomorrow at thistime, at this place, and this is
how I'm going to do it.
It's often far more disguisedthan that.
It's far more indirect.
It might be a statement like, myfamily would be better off
without me, or my team would bebetter off without me, or I'm
just a burden on everybody'splate.
Those are suicidal kinds ofcommunications, and we need to
(50:25):
pay attention to those just asmuch as we do Those direct
statements that do happen, justnot as frequently.
So anybody communicating theirintent is a number one warning
sign.
Now the second and equallyimportant warning sign has to do
with looking for a way to die.
We know that those people whodied by suicide looked for a way
(50:46):
to die they might have searchedonline for methods on how to
take their life they might havegone around their house and
looked for whether it was aweapon or with something sharp
or a rope or a place where theycould do this they might have
looked for medicines that theycould take all different kinds
of ways to die by suicide ofcourse but they somehow searched
(51:06):
out and looked for a way to dieso if we have any idea any
inclination any observation ofsomebody communicating their
intent and looking for a way todie.
Those are the two primarywarning signs.
The next set of warning signsthat we really want people to
pay attention to are statementsthat somebody might make such
as, I feel like I'm just aburden.
(51:27):
There's no hope for me anymore.
I don't really have a future infront of me.
There's no purpose for me to bearound any longer.
I feel really trapped byeverything and there's no way
out.
These kinds of statements,combined with some of those risk
factors, not having enoughprotective factors, maybe a
mental health issue, maybe someother problems in their life,
that's when we know that thesewarning signs really set off a
(51:51):
triggering set of events.
Those are the kinds of things wereally want people to pay
attention to when it comes towarning signs.
SPEAKER_00 (51:58):
So once we start to hear warning signs and behaviors
of somebody that we feel is asuicide risk, what are some of
the things that we can do tohelp those people or to guide
them in the right direction?
So
SPEAKER_01 (52:13):
there are some simple things that everybody can
do because we know that forabout half of the people that
make a final decision that theywant to die by suicide and they
carry it out or attempt atsuicide, it's less than 10
minutes.
not enough time to get to adoctor, not enough time to get
to a hospital.
What that means is thateverybody has to know some of
(52:33):
these warning signs.
Everybody's got to be able to doa few things.
First thing is we need to knowthat it's okay to ask about
suicide.
Most people still are veryafraid to ask about suicide.
They think that if they askabout it, it's going to lead
somebody down that path, or it'sgoing to make them want to do it
more, or it's going to put anidea in their head that wasn't
there before.
We have a wealth of data thattells us that isn't true.
(52:56):
And in fact, The opposite can betrue.
If you ask somebody who might bethinking about suicide, you can
actually reduce their level ofdistress.
You can reduce their level ofanxiety.
So we need to know that it isokay to ask and we need to know
how to ask the question.
So that's the second thing.
If you're worried aboutsomebody, If you have a gut
(53:18):
feeling that something isn'tright, there's been a change in
behavior, there's been a changein things that they're saying,
and you're worried about it, andyou decide you're going to ask
about it, that's a good thing.
You must ask the question with afatality component to it.
That's really important, butI've got to back up one second
here.
If you're just not sure what'sgoing on, if you just think
(53:40):
something might be going on, butyou're not sure exactly what it
is, start a conversation withsomebody.
How are you doing?
It doesn't seem like you've beenyourself lately.
Are there things going on thatare really troubling you?
Are you really strugglingthrough?
You can ask these more broadquestions just to see where
their thinking is at, theiremotions.
That's okay.
If you are concerned thatsomebody really might be at risk
(54:02):
of suicide, have those riskfactors.
They have warning signs.
We've got to ask the question.
It's got to be very direct.
We've got to make sure that wesay something about death or
dying.
And the reason for that is ifsomebody is actually thinking
about death or dying by theirown hand, we don't ask about
that.
We're going to miss where theirbrain is at.
(54:23):
We've got to be really clearwith them.
Is this what you're thinking?
Would you just rather be dead?
Do you don't want to live anylonger?
You just don't like lifeanymore?
That's okay.
So now that you've asked, thenext thing is to listen.
And we need to make sure thatwhen we're listening to people,
we spend more time listeningthan we do talking.
We need to listen more.
(54:45):
We need to listen for thingslike, Do they think about the
future?
Do they have any hope for thefuture or hope for getting
better?
Have they ever been in treatmentbefore?
Has it ever worked for them?
Were they compliant withtreatment, taking their meds or
seeing their doctors?
We need to listen for, do theyhave specific reasons to live?
I want to get to this graduationor I want to see my kids have
(55:05):
children or I want to get to mywedding date or my retirement,
whatever it is, because thosereasons to live are the kinds of
things that we can actually useto have a conversation with
them.
And that can deescalate peoplevery quickly.
We want to make sure that we'relistening non-judgmentally.
We don't want to judge somebodywho's thinking about suicide or
struggling with mental healthissues.
(55:27):
Whatever their thoughts are,whatever their feelings are,
they're theirs and we need toacknowledge them and recognize
them and say, look, I may notunderstand what you're going
through.
I may not be able to feel whatyou're feeling right now, but
that doesn't mean I don't care.
And it doesn't mean I can'tsupport you.
And it doesn't mean I don't wantto be here for you because I do.
So we want to listen.
(55:49):
We want to make sure that wereflect that back to them.
And then we want to respond tothem.
We want to make sure that theyknow that we're going to be
there to support them.
We want to make sure that theyknow that there's resources out
there.
The ones that you mentioned, theones that are on your website.
Those are the kinds of things wewant to give them.
to somebody who has that tunnelvision that doesn't know that
there are alternatives andoptions.
(56:10):
The more we can give that tosomeone who's struggling, the
more they're going to believe inus and the more that they're
going to want to have aconversation with us.
Now, one more thing that'sreally important here.
If you're having a conversationwith someone and they're really
struggling and they may say, youknow, I've thought about it.
I wouldn't ever do it.
(56:31):
But I've thought about it.
And they're talking aboutsuicide.
Make sure you don't leave themalone.
We know that if you leavesomebody alone that just
discloses this and you say,okay, this is really important.
You and I need to talk aboutthis.
Let's meet an hour.
Let's meet in two hours.
Tragically, sometimes that twohours is too late.
And it increases their shame.
(56:53):
around this when you put thatoff.
If somebody's talking to youabout a life or death thing,
it's no different than ifthey're having a heart attack.
You don't say, I'm going to getback to you and perform CPR in a
couple hours, or I'm going toget you to a doctor in a couple
hours.
We shouldn't do that hereeither.
We need to be ready to say,look, if that's what you're
thinking about, we need to talkto somebody else right now.
(57:15):
Let's get you to a professional.
Let's get you connected tosomebody.
I'm not going to leave you aloneuntil we know that everything's
going to be safe.
Those are really importantthings to do if somebody's at
risk of suicide.
SPEAKER_00 (57:27):
Yeah, I want people to know too that it may not even
be a loved one that has care andcompassion for you.
It could be somebody in asupport group.
Because there are people outthere that feel like they don't
have anyone that they can dependon.
But people do care out there.
And I do think that thosequestions show care and
compassion.
Oftentimes, just that feelingcan help somebody really rethink
(57:49):
ending their life.
The other thing is depression,as an example, other mood
disorders as well.
One of the symptoms, it can befixating on suicide as part of
the disorder.
So...
If somebody is going throughthat and scared that they're
thinking this way, it's part ofthe disorder.
Once you're back into balance,you may not have those thoughts
(58:11):
anymore.
SPEAKER_01 (58:13):
That's exactly right.
There are a number of symptomsof these various illnesses.
Obviously, most people thinkabout depression and depression
obviously has a depressed moodwhere you're unhappy and you're
very sad.
You might be very tearful.
You might have physical symptomssuch as you don't want to eat or
you eat too much or your sleepis off.
Either you sleep too much or toolittle or it's very distressed
(58:35):
kind of sleep.
You might have no energy.
You might have no drive, nointerest in anything any longer.
But you're exactly right.
Some people that live withdepression do think about
suicide.
It is one of the symptoms of it.
Not everybody does, but somepeople do.
So we need to make sure thatWhen we're talking to somebody
who is in any way strugglingwith a mental health issue, we
(58:57):
want to check things out.
We want to make sure we'reasking the right questions and
keeping people safe and gettingthem through the crisis.
And most of the time, it is truethat anybody can be a support
system.
SPEAKER_00 (59:11):
So, Dr.
Dan, is there anything else thatyou would like to say about
Save.org or about suicideprevention?
SPEAKER_01 (59:20):
We know that suicide is a preventable death.
And if we can all be involved inthis, if we can all get over
that shame and those negativewords that are attributed to
mental health issues, and we canbe honest and compassionate with
those that are struggling,they're going to open up to us.
And if they open up to us, it'san opportunity to save a life.
(59:41):
Anytime we can do that, makethat connection and save
somebody's life, we know it hasripple effects, not just for
that person and their family andtheir work or their school,
their friends, their community,the world.
It changes the world whensomebody stays alive.
And that all just takes a littlebit of time and a little bit of
compassion and a little bit ofwillingness to stand up and say,
(01:00:02):
I'm going to be there for you.
And the more people that we cancome on board with that, the
more lives we're going to save.
So we all have a part in thisand we all have an opportunity
to save lives.
And you're doing this andbringing this to light really
does make a difference.
And so I'm grateful for you andyour words and the Check Your
Head podcast.
And I hope everybody that's outthere hears this says, if I can
(01:00:24):
do one thing and save somebody'slife today, I'm going to do
that.
SPEAKER_00 (01:00:28):
A big thank you to our musical guest, Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
(01:01:00):
For more information, visitkillswitchengage.com.
For more information on Times ofGrace and to purchase their new
album, Songs of Loss andSeparation, visit
timesofgraceband.com.
We'll also be playing a clip ofTimes of Grace's single, The
Burden of Belief, soon, so staytuned for that.
For more information on Dr.
(01:01:22):
Dan Reidenberg and hisnonprofit, Suicide Awareness
Voices of Education, visitsave.org.
So until next time, be brave,ask for help, and be persistent
in finding the mental healththat you need.
SPEAKER_03 (01:01:37):
This journey has brought me to my I
SPEAKER_00 (01:02:10):
still believe I cannot let go Thank you for your
(01:02:45):
support and thank you forlistening.
Welcome to the Check Your Head podcast.
The podcast where notablemusicians and experts share
their stories and solutions formental health and wellness.
I'm your host, Mari Fong, amusic journalist and life coach
for musicians.
And today I wanted to start bygiving a special thank you to
(00:21):
all the listeners of the CheckYour Head podcast.
Thank you so much for being alistener and for your reviews.
(00:55):
Now to our featured guests.
Have you ever been in a badrelationship where you felt
unappreciated, put down, or werefighting so much that you were
constantly anxious or depressed?
Our musical guest has been inthat relationship and finally
found his solutions to separatefrom toxic people, along with
ways to soothe his anxiety anddepression to find a better,
(01:17):
happier life.
Our musical guest today is aveteran in the metalcore scene,
a band with eight studio albumsand over four million records
sold.
Grammy nominated and consideredone of the early founders of
metalcore music.
Our guest today is Jesse Leach,lead singer and guitarist of
Killswitch Engage and Times ofGrace.
(01:39):
Jesse will not only share hissolutions for mental wellness,
but also a clip from The Burdenof Belief, a single from the New
Times of Grace album entitledSongs of Loss and Separation
that dropped on July 16, 2021.
Next, our featured mental healthexpert is an internationally
recognized leader and educatoron the topic of suicide, Dr.
(02:01):
Dan Reidenberg.
Dr.
Dan is also the ExecutiveDirector of SAVE.org, which
stands for Suicide Awareness,Voices of Education.
Dr.
Dan will share some of thewarning signs for someone who
may be at risk for suicide, andalso what we can do and say that
can possibly save a life.
But first, let's hear JesseLeach of Killswitch Engage and
(02:24):
Times of Grace share his story.
I want to congratulate you onthis new album, Songs of Loss
and Separation.
It sounds really personal toyou.
SPEAKER_04 (02:35):
Times of Grace, man.
That record, I would have to sayit's probably my best work to
date, if I could be so bold tosay such a thing.
And potentially a good therapyfor people who are suffering,
because I know it was goodtherapy for me.
For Adam and I, we were bothgoing through a a difficult
time.
Adam was dealing withdepression, and we were both
(02:57):
dealing with loss as well, whichis really ironic that the name
of the title is the same.
But yeah, I was going through apretty brutal divorce and just
realizing that you don't needsomebody in your life anymore
after many years of beingtogether.
So that was part of it.
And unraveling and rediscoveringwho I was alone, that entire
(03:17):
process is captured on thisrecord, as well as coming out on
the other side, finding a lightat the end of the tunnel.
Because the process of makingthis record was Oh, about a year
and a half, two years.
We really take our time withthis project because it is such
personal music and we couldn'thave it any other way.
I don't think we could write aTimes of Grace record without
(03:39):
some sort of tragedy orsomething heavy to go through.
And that's the beauty of thisproject.
I'm very proud of it.
And part of that is just it'stherapeutic to just let it out
and also to think that peoplewill hopefully find something to
relate to and find their owntherapy through this music.
SPEAKER_00 (03:57):
Well, you said something really great, which is
letting it out.
And that feels good to be honestand open and vulnerable.
And oftentimes that's difficultwhen you're dealing with mental
issues and mood disorders,because sometimes we can be
embarrassed or sometimes we feellike, gosh, I don't even feel
like myself right now.
I don't even want to go outsideand talk with people because I
(04:20):
could barely talk myself.
But that also connects people,that honesty and
SPEAKER_04 (04:26):
Yeah, I think it's important because I find for me
those times when I hear somebodysay something I can relate to
and I don't feel so alone,that's a huge thing.
That's huge.
Because it almost gives you abit of an exhale amidst what
you're going through.
You're reading something orhearing somebody say, yeah, I
get this.
It's such a relief.
(04:46):
And I've been through that somuch.
I continue to go through that.
That's why for me, it'ssomething important to share,
whether or not it's comfortableto do so.
SPEAKER_00 (04:54):
Yeah, I was reading, you were saying that loneliness
and disconnection of not feelinglike anyone understands, and
then finally finding thosepeople that do.
Where did you find those peoplefor yourself as you're going
through this mental healthjourney?
I
SPEAKER_04 (05:11):
think it all started for me as a...
teenager getting into hardcoremusic and punk rock and
eventually metal as well justthe social misfits especially
back then in the early 90sbefore the internet was all over
the place when you really if youwere disconnected you really
felt disconnected you know andgoing to a therapist back then
that wasn't really somethingthat was I mean it's still an
(05:33):
odd thing but it's a lot more inthe public dialogue than it was
back then so if you felt like anoutcast you were pretty outcast
it's like There was no onlineforum.
There was nothing to reach outto.
And the stigma behind calling asuicide hotline is like, that's
not me.
I would never do that, eventhough at times I was suicidal.
(05:53):
So finding punk rockers andhardcore kids and even ravers,
just subcultures, kids who wereinto subcultures, they were the
misfits.
Those are the people that youcould go out and have a lot of
fun with and do crazy stuff withand be yourself.
Be that person that doesn't fitinto the norm of Johnny and
Susie High School.
I never...
got along with any of thosenormal type of people.
(06:15):
I didn't get it.
I wasn't into sports.
I wasn't into going to dancesand doing all that stuff.
I didn't get it.
I didn't fit in.
So subcultures really was mystart.
But I didn't develop an actuallanguage or even admit to myself
that I was having issues tillprobably my 30s.
And that's when I started tostart to lose it a little bit.
(06:37):
And right around that time, Istarted to see people,
organizations coming up.
The more I dug online, the moreI found.
I think just learning what wasgoing on inside of my head,
having a language for it, thatwas the start of everything.
And it's a journey that Icontinue to go on to this day
and help me feel like I'm notalone.
(06:57):
And I'm so not alone.
There's so many of us areaffected by mental illness and
addiction and whatever.
SPEAKER_00 (07:03):
Yeah, absolutely true.
And it's not something thatnormally would come up in
conversation, but it's somethingthat's so important to talk
about, especially when yourecognize symptoms or behaviors
or words from others that cantip you off that something is
not quite right.
And you said that there was aturning point in your 30s.
(07:27):
It sounds like almost forced youto look at what was going on.
What was that experience?
incident or time in your lifeabout?
SPEAKER_04 (07:34):
Yeah.
In retrospect, it was definitelysomething that had to do with my
relationship at the time thatwas causing anxiety.
Because not all anxiety...
Listen, people have disordersand mental illness.
We all know this.
But sometimes you have outsidesources that those things.
And I was being triggered a lotby somebody who was pretty toxic
(07:56):
for me, somebody that justwasn't right for me.
I wasn't supposed to be withthat person.
And the energy that person wasgiving off was causing me a ton
of anxiety to the point wheresuicide seems like an option
because you're so tortured byit.
You just want peace.
And to get to that point whereyou are sort of accepting the
(08:17):
That taking yourself out wouldbe an option.
That's when you know you're in arough spot.
There's so many other ways Iknow now to cope with it or to
sever relationships or to haveenough self-love to just pick
yourself up and move on.
But when you're in the midst ofa toxic or abusive relationship,
It's hard to see outside of it.
(08:37):
And I knew things were startingto unravel for me back then.
And that's when I just reachedout for help to friends, to
people that I knew were in mycommunity, in the hardcore and
metal community, that weresaying to people, it's okay to
not be okay.
For example, it's one of thehashtags that is used for my
friend Johnny and Hope for theDay.
And I started to see my peersspeaking up about it.
(09:00):
So it became...
a necessity.
And then after that necessity, Isaw it as very much something I
needed to do, not just formyself, but for others.
And I did that through my lyricsas well.
I started to really injectmental health issues into my
lyrics with Kill, Switch, Engageand Times of Grace around that
(09:20):
time.
And since then, I've written aton of songs.
I mean, one that I've gottattooed on my arm here, I Am
Broken Too, which is the anthemfor letting people know that
you're not alone.
And initially just Being forcedinto that situation where I was
so desperate for release, sodesperate to figure out what the
hell was going on with me andwhy I was having this chronic
(09:42):
anxiety, which led todepression, which led to
suicidal thoughts and almostfantasizing about the peace that
death would give me.
Yeah, that's when I knew I hadsome real heavy issues to deal
with.
SPEAKER_00 (09:55):
I do understand what you're saying because when
you're in a lot of pain andnobody...
to see it from the outside ornobody seems to understand it.
You just want the pain to stop.
And sometimes when you're inthat dark place, you feel like
I've tried everything andnothing is working, but there's
(10:17):
always hope and there's alwayssolutions.
And that's it is that sometimeswe don't know what those
solutions are, but you talkedabout something I thought was
really important was that youwere in a toxic relationship to
the point where it was beingabusive.
And I'm bringing this up becauseI think this happens a lot.
SPEAKER_02 (10:36):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (10:37):
Why do you think you stayed in that relationship for
so long to the point where youwere having suicidal thoughts?
SPEAKER_04 (10:45):
Yeah, it's really hard.
At the time when I was goingthrough it, it's crazy because
you have this trauma bond withthis person.
What you think is love is yourdefinition of love is so warped
at that point.
Because for me, it was 18 yearswith this person.
This isn't just a couple ofyears.
This is like a half a lifetime.
(11:06):
And the things that go on thatare unhealthy, you're so used to
them.
So it's almost like, oh, this iswhat it's like to be in a
marriage or a relationship.
This is what happens.
And I didn't speak much aboutthat stuff.
But the more I started to talkto people and the more I started
to speak with other people whowere in similar situations, you
(11:27):
realize, oh, this isn't whateverybody does.
And then I started to see otherrelationships in a different
light and started to realize howmuch work and how much pain was
being caused.
I think when you're abused,You're just that.
You're abused.
It's hard to see outside ofthat.
And then when you finally pullout of it, you look back and
(11:47):
there was a good chunk of timeafter my separation and divorce
where I was like, how?
How did I stay that long?
How?
And I still can't come to gripswith it.
So it's really hard to answerthat question.
But that just goes to show youwhen you're abused, sometimes
you don't realize how bad it istill you get out.
And that's the scary part.
I know people that have gottenput in the hospital by their
(12:10):
spouses.
bloody in the hospital, stillmaking excuses for the behavior.
And thankfully with myrelationship, it wasn't physical
for the most part, the abuse, itwas more mental, but it does a
number on your head.
It really messes you up.
And if you already are dealingwith mental illness and then
you're in a relationship that'stoxic with somebody who's
(12:30):
triggering you constantly, itgets pretty dark and you get
really confused.
What's right, what's wrong,what's up, what's down.
You forgive chronic behaviorsthat after so many times, it's
not a mistake anymore.
Yeah, all those thingscompounded.
You just get into this reallyfragile, strange state where I
(12:51):
was finding excuses usinglanguage that was very defensive
when the talk of what's going onwith me came up.
So it's something I had toreally deprogram and unravel
from.
And I still sift through thoseissues and I still have issues
with anxiety and trust issues.
Like that's still there.
It's just learning how to dealwith them and allowing yourself
(13:12):
to, to relax a little bit and totrust and to find peace again.
So it's been quite a journey,but yeah, that's a difficult
question to answer.
And I'm sure many people whodeal with abuse would say the
same thing.
You're kind of just blind to it.
SPEAKER_00 (13:26):
Yeah.
You know, it reminds me of oneof your songs, which is Medusa.
And you say it's about anabusive, broken relationship.
And one of the things you saidis keeping your heart and spirit
alive after feeling broken andbeaten down.
You know, I know your life isdifferent now because you just
(13:47):
mentioned you have a girlfriend.
SPEAKER_02 (13:49):
Oh,
SPEAKER_00 (13:50):
yeah.
How did you keep your heart andspirit alive after that
separation and so many years ofthat?
SPEAKER_04 (13:58):
Yeah, I think...
my sort of survival skillsstarted to kick in, I would say,
years before the actual divorceand split up, on tour with my
band, Living My Dream.
That's something that reallyhelped, number one, pursuing my
dreams and being out theretraveling and being around my
(14:19):
friends, seeing new things everyday, change of scenery.
That whole lifestyle isbeautiful.
It can be great for your mentalhealth, as tough as it can be.
On the flip side, if you've gota great home life and you miss
your home life, if you're outthere escaping something, it's
pretty amazing.
So that helped.
And then the days off in randomcities or towns or countries, I
(14:41):
would really take my time and dowhat I wanted to do.
So I would escape and have metime.
And I would take myself out todinner.
I started to find self-love.
I started to figure out who Iwas despite my scars and despite
my abuse.
And it sounds cheesy, but theonly way I can say this is I
started to fall in love with whoI am and realizing that, yeah, I
(15:03):
do deserve good love.
I do deserve all these things.
You know, I learned very quicklythat I had to find self-love.
And that's truly what led me tofinally putting my foot down and
going, I'm done with this.
So it was years of just figuringout who I was and learning how
to love myself again and givingme the strength to just be like,
(15:26):
no, I'm not putting up with thisanymore.
Once I started to say that outloud, I saw the spiral happen.
She went one way, I went theother.
And I was like, you know what?
Good.
You know, there was a moment,and Medusa's is about this.
There was a moment where it wasjust staring me in the face.
I was looking in the eyes ofthis demonic energy, if you
(15:48):
will, and saying to myself,you're not going to kill me.
I'm not going down with you.
I'm out.
I'm out.
And the spoken word part in thatsong Medusa's directly about
that.
Seeing the situation for what ittruly is and not having that
film of abuse or that film ofguilt or Whatever the case may
be, when you're carrying it withyou for so long, when it's
(16:10):
lifted off of your eyes and yousee it for what it is.
And to me, Medusa was a perfectanalogy for like, whoa, my heart
is turning into stone.
I'm becoming a dark figurebecause of this.
And I won't let that happen.
So at the end of Medusa, youwon't kill the love in me.
From demon eyes, I'm finallyfree.
You won't kill the love in me.
(16:31):
It's just...
The whole song is dark and rightat the end there, when I had to
scream that line, I couldn'tjust sing it.
It was like, I'm free.
I'm out.
And that's one of the bestdecisions I've made in my life.
And that did lead me to whereI'm now, where this is the
happiest I've ever been that Ican remember.
And I'm with somebody who isamazing and builds me up and
(16:54):
challenges me and has beenthrough the ringer herself with
her issues and herrelationships.
So we both met as broken humanbeings in a very dark place and
very quickly found love and weare both doing great.
It's amazing what actual loveand trust and someone who
(17:15):
supports you can do for you.
So it's been a hell of ajourney, but I couldn't be
happier and I wouldn't change athing.
As crazy as she got, it made mewho I am, you know?
SPEAKER_02 (17:26):
Well,
SPEAKER_00 (17:29):
I'm really glad that Your life is different now that
that was the light at the end ofthe tunnel is finding a better
relationship and realizing thatthese things that are broken
with us actually provide thecolor within people.
It provides part of theirpersonality and provides also
compassion.
And one thing that you said wasyou found compassion.
(17:52):
the love for yourself and getout of a relationship because of
the love that you found foryourself.
I do think that's the core to alot of issues in life.
And some people never get out ofthat.
They never learn to lovethemselves or forgive
themselves.
How were you able to do that foryourself?
(18:12):
Was that something you did onyour own?
Was that something you realizedor therapy or how did you come
to that conclusion?
SPEAKER_04 (18:20):
Yeah, it's a mixture of things.
The first thing that I did thatreally helped me was riding my
bicycle.
So it sounds funny, but anyonewho knows, exercise is
incredible for the brain.
And I've never been a guy thatcan just go to a gym and stare
at a mirror and pump iron.
I can't do that, just not who Iam.
I'm a nature guy.
(18:41):
So I actually found an old10-speed bicycle while recording
the first Times of Grace recordin the back of the studio in
Western Mass, like halfway inthe stream and in the woods,
just overgrown.
It was this old bicycle.
10 speed, probably from the 80s,like just a huffy, like not a
good bike at all.
And I took it home.
I don't know.
(19:01):
It was just something about it.
I was walking, writing lyrics,and I saw it.
I'm like, I'm going to take thishome and fix it up.
I remember that first bike ride.
I'm in tears, and I feel like akid again.
It was this moment of like, whyhave I not been riding bikes for
– This is amazing.
And where I used to live inYonkers, New York, there was a
huge bike trail.
And I just started doing thatbike trail.
(19:23):
Every other day when I wouldstart to feel anxiety or panic
or anything pop up, I would geton this bike trail.
And I'd go further and further.
And finally, I was doing 20miles, and I ended up buying a
nice bike.
And that became such a buzz, theendorphins that kicked in.
I'd get off these bike rides,and my anxiety would dissipate.
I felt better.
I felt stronger physically.
(19:43):
And that sort of translated intomentally as well.
And that was the first thingthat I was like, oh, this is
good for me.
This is a healthy habit that Ineed to make.
Instead of drinking myself intoa black hole, which I was
definitely self-medicating a lotduring this time.
And it actually reduced mydesire to drink too.
So cycling has stuck with me tothis day.
(20:04):
I did it last week when I wasfeeling off and it really
helped, especially with anxiety.
It's huge for anxiety.
Depression, that's hard becausesometimes...
I won't even make it out thedoor to get to my bike on those
dark days because I stillsuffer.
My life is good, but my mentalillness didn't go anywhere.
I still have to manage it anddeal with it.
For me, if I go into a darkthing, it might take a week to
(20:25):
come out.
It's hard.
So physical activity is huge.
And then starting to talk tofriends who have been through
similar situations.
And that did eventually lead meto a therapy session, which was
one of those mind-blowingmoments when I sat with somebody
who was educated.
and empathetic and caring, butalso firm and just speaking
(20:47):
about it, having a conversationthat's ongoing, reading about
it, researching, and again,exercise, swimming, hiking,
biking, things that just reallyhelp reset my brain.
SPEAKER_00 (20:59):
It takes a while for someone to get from a mood
disorder to getting therapy.
Was there something inparticular that happened that
said, okay, I'm making the call.
I'm going to try this out.
What was that for you?
SPEAKER_04 (21:15):
Yeah.
And it's funny too, because Iactually made it public.
I mean, there were articleswritten about it.
I had just moved up here fromBrooklyn.
I was living in Brooklyn, NewYork, and I moved up here where
I live now in Woodstock up herein the Catskill Mountains.
It was the first weekend I wasalone and I went out to do a
hike and And I had this momentof darkness once again, where I
(21:36):
was looking down this waterfalland thinking to myself, yeah,
this might be the way to do it.
And I was back there again tothat dark place where, you know,
but it was different this time.
There was something there.
There was a different voice oflike, no, look where you are.
Like you're in this beautifulplace.
There is beauty.
There's more like life has somuch to offer you.
What do you want to call that?
(21:57):
God, divine intervention, or,you know, I don't know what it
was, but it, I wasn't alone atthat moment.
I know I wasn't.
And that's when it just dawnedon me.
I was like, why have I neverdone this therapy thing?
I've got to reach out.
So I reached out for help.
And thankfully, where I live,there's a bunch of healers,
whether you're talking aboutsound therapy, which I did,
(22:19):
singing bowls, I didacupuncture, I did massage
therapy, and then I finally wentto see and talk to an actual
therapist.
recommended by another healerhere.
And I said, I'm going to do allof it.
Any suggestion somebody gives meto figure out how to move
forward with my life, I'm goingto do it.
I'm not naysaying it anymore.
I'm not going, I got this.
(22:41):
I just surrendered.
And I said, whatever someoneputs in front of me, I will do
it.
So I did all of it.
And all of it was incredible.
Acupuncture, eh, not so much.
It was a little weird.
A little uncomfortable, butapparently it's great for you.
So that one therapist justchanged everything.
In a very quick amount of time.
(23:28):
Thankfully for me, the first onewas the right one.
And it blew my mind.
And I walked out of theresobbing for joy because I felt
this relief.
Somebody who validated what Iwent through and gave me a
language, like the word abusenever entered my mouth.
And she said, you have beenabused.
(23:48):
You're mentally abused.
The way you're speaking, I cantell somebody who really has
beaten you down.
She used better words than that,but...
That was one of those ahamoments like, I'm an abused
spouse.
That sucks.
And it's funny where societydoesn't normally put males in
that category.
Usually, it's the female.
(24:09):
And for me, it was like, I hadto own that.
And I remember going online andbeing like, hey, I just sent all
my fans.
I'm going away.
I'm not going to be on socialmedia because I was super active
back then.
And I just announced it.
And I wasn't embarrassed aboutit.
People made fun of me.
I'm sure there was snickering.
I read a few articles that werelike, he's lost it.
(24:30):
But the amount of people thatempowered to actually go see a
therapist and to say thatthey're not okay, it was one of
those earth-shattering momentswhere I'm like, oh, I've got to
do this more.
I've got to keep talking aboutthis.
When I came out of thetherapist's office, I was like,
that's it.
From now on, I call myself amental health advocate.
I'm going to talk about this.
I'm going to work withorganizations.
(24:50):
When someone asks me tovolunteer time, I'm going to do
it.
So I haven't said no to anyopportunity that I've had to
continue to talk about mentalillness.
And it's been so rewarding, notonly just for my own walk, but
friends and family, people thatI grew up with that would reach
out to me and say, hey, becauseof you, this is what I did.
(25:11):
And I've been dealing withdepression for 25 years.
I didn't know what it was.
So stuff like that, it justconstantly keeps coming back
around to remind me that this isimportant.
And I've got to do it.
And I love to do it.
It's so fulfilling.
I go to bed at night thinking,at least I'm pitching in.
It really helps my mental stateof mind to know that I'm
helping.
And in turn, that helps me.
(25:32):
It's a win-win situation.
SPEAKER_00 (25:35):
Yeah, I agree.
I agree.
I feel the same way.
I feel very passionate about it.
Because when you've been in areally dark place, and you come
out of it, and you do find yoursolutions like you have, you
want to give that to somebodyelse, because you know how much
it can hurt.
You don't want anyone to gothrough that.
You know, I read something thatI thought was interesting.
(25:56):
You said that your grandfatherprobably had bipolar, but it was
put under the rug.
And then In high school, youstarted to go through some
hormonal changes and were goingthrough high highs and some low
lows.
Did you ever feel like youmight've been having symptoms of
bipolar or was that eversomething that crossed your
mind?
SPEAKER_04 (26:16):
So as far as my grandfather's concerned, I
couldn't figure out why grandpawould just go into his room and
watch TV for weeks.
And then he'd come out and he'dput on like a summer dress
because he was a funny guy.
He was a champion water skierand he'd get on water skis and
go around the pond where mygrandparents live with a dress
on and pass out frozen Snickersbars to the kids.
(26:38):
He was the life of the party andthen he would just disappear.
So the high highs and low lows.
So I started to go through that,but When I was going through
high school, the amount of drugsI was putting into my body, I
wouldn't have known what wasgoing on with me because I was
self-medicating for a long timewith not just marijuana and
drinking, but like psychedelics,like lots of acid.
(27:02):
So I didn't know what way it wasup for a long time there.
I think that hindered my growth.
But I look back on that and Idon't regret any of that either
because I discovered so muchabout myself.
Bipolarism is something I'vebeen concerned with, but I am
not bipolar.
And if I am, it's minor.
I'm depressive and anxiety.
(27:25):
But it does run in my family,and some of my family members do
have it.
SPEAKER_00 (27:29):
Submedication is something that happens often,
and also medication is somethingthat can happen.
Was there ever any trial anderror for you with medication?
SPEAKER_04 (27:39):
Yeah, I briefly tried medication for depression.
I just...
Didn't like the way it made mefeel.
And I didn't give it more of achance.
I've got friends who, if they'renot on it, it's bad.
It's dangerous.
And they have found the rightdosage where they don't get
numb.
See, I was feeling numb toomuch.
And I didn't want that at thatpoint in my life.
(28:00):
And now I don't numb anymore.
I want to feel it.
I want to work through it.
I want to talk about it.
For me, medication can either besomething you stay on or
something you're on temporarilyjust to get yourself right.
And I think I probably couldhave benefited from staying on
something for a small amount oftime to sort of write myself but
i never did that i think it waspart of me just being stubborn
(28:22):
like no i'm going to do it on myown which it's the long road but
i'm glad i took that but thatbeing said i've got dear friends
that need that medication umdealing with more severe stuff
And I've got friends who've beenon it temporarily and they come
off, they wean off it and theneurons or whatever have
connected differently.
And that's what it is too.
(28:42):
I've been learning so much aboutthe pathway of neurons and how
the brain works and the pathwayto anxiety and what makes you
spiral and triggers and allthese amazing terminologies that
I've been learning, especiallyanxiety.
Anxiety to me is so complex.
SPEAKER_02 (28:57):
It's
SPEAKER_04 (28:57):
so broad.
And a lot of the behaviors thatAre based off anxiety.
And I never knew that I've gotfriends too, who get snappy and
angry.
And there's a whole bunch ofanger that's tied to anxiety.
And I never connected those dotsto even just in the past couple
of years.
And I have a friend of mine whoalways loses his mind and gets
(29:18):
so angry.
And I'm like, Hey man, take itfrom somebody who's got it.
You're dealing with anxiety.
And once I gave him thatlanguage and he was humble
enough to look it up, andeventually get on medication and
like changed his whole world,rocked his world.
Everybody knew him as this guywas just explosive and angry and
don't piss him off.
(29:38):
And now he's, he still has hismoments, but for the most part,
he's a pretty balanced guy.
I have a very anxious brain andthat's what spirals me into
depression as well.
So the power of getting to learnthe language and knowing what
works for you, whether it'smedication or not medication or
all those tools, like that'sjust, So powerful.
(29:58):
It's so powerful.
SPEAKER_00 (30:01):
It's really interesting too.
I mean, we have experts come onto the podcast and I learn
something new every single timeI do an interview and I'm just,
my mind is blown by some of thetherapies and the research part
that you're doing is soimportant because it's very
individual for each person, whatthey're going through.
SPEAKER_04 (30:20):
Totally.
Yeah.
I agree with that a hundredpercent.
And that's the beauty of talkingabout it.
That's the beauty of being in acommunity of people or being
online or having a podcast whereyou can continue that education
and wisdom through experienceand dealing with people and
hearing other people's storiesand having those aha moments
where you're like, oh, I get it.
(30:41):
Yeah, that's beautiful.
And I love that we have that.
And that's why this conversationis so important to continue and
to normalize is because we Itcould potentially save lives.
It could potentially savesomebody from getting to that
point where they're eventhinking about suicide.
Because there's so many thingsto do.
There's so many options.
There's so many beautiful thingsthat can happen to you to
(31:04):
prevent you from getting to thatplace.
And 99% of that is just talkingabout it.
SPEAKER_00 (31:09):
There are people that say, you know what, I'm
going to do it my way.
I'm doing it my way.
They get very stubborn aboutwanting to Turn to a
professional.
And the thing with mentalsituations and mood disorders is
that it's so complex.
There's no way that someone canreally have that kind of
(31:29):
knowledge to deal with it.
What do you say to somebody whosays, you know what, I'm going
to try it my way.
I can do it after years andyears of trying.
How do you convince that person?
SPEAKER_04 (31:41):
That's difficult because you've got to want the
help.
You can't force it.
But what I would say is, topeople is, would you want to
spend 10 years figuring out yourissues or maybe two years?
The fact is, if you reach out tosomebody and you're humble
enough to just accept that helpand give it a shot, what's the
worst that could happen?
(32:02):
You don't like your therapistand you stop or you switch.
It's not that big of a deal, isit?
But you could fast track this.
You could truly gain so muchmore wisdom and reduce your
suffering if you just acceptsome help.
I think that's the bottom linewith it, is how bad do you want
to deal with your issues?
And some people don't want tohear it, but I think if you
(32:25):
dangle that in front of theirface, if they truly are
suffering and you want toalleviate that suffering...
What's the backside, the darkside to just seeing a therapist?
I mean, the worst case scenariois you stop seeing them.
SPEAKER_03 (32:37):
Right, right.
SPEAKER_04 (32:39):
People say money, and it's like, okay, well,
money.
I mean, how much do you careabout your mental health?
And that's the thing, too, ispeople don't prioritize.
Because there comes a time whenyou're dealing with this where
you need to put yourself firstfor a while.
You need to be selfish becauseyou're no good self.
to the people that you love orthat surround you that need you
and want to know you're doingyour best if you're not doing
(33:02):
okay.
And that's what I have learnedto do is I have moments where I
dig my heels in and I tellpeople I'm canceling plans.
I'm not going to do this.
I'm uncomfortable with this.
And putting up those boundariesand protecting my mental
well-being has been huge becauseI would just say yes to
everything.
And I'm a people pleaser, whichis part of...
(33:23):
my personality and I'll peopleplease to the point where it's a
detriment to my mental healthand I'll start resenting people
and I get angry and all thesethings start to happen.
So once I just started to stickup for myself and that's it, you
have to prioritize it.
Do you really wanna get better?
Do you wanna navigate this?
Well, here's some things you cando.
If you're gonna be stubbornabout it, it might take you
three or four times longer toget to where you could if you
(33:46):
just accepted some help.
SPEAKER_00 (33:48):
Right, and making yourself a priority.
By taking control.
And that's a hard part, too, isto take control and actually
realize that I don't want to saybeing manipulated, but
oftentimes if we don't takecontrol, other people's wants
and needs surpass our own.
And that could be detrimental tous if we are not conscious of
it.
(34:10):
You know, one thing that wasreally interesting is you were
talking about using mushroomsand micro dosing.
Is that something that you stillare doing and believe in?
SPEAKER_04 (34:22):
Yeah, absolutely.
I'm a firm believer inmicrodosing.
And I always have to prefacethis with, obviously, some of
that stuff is illegal, so yougot to be careful with that.
But just because it's illegaldoesn't mean that it doesn't
help.
There's a lot of politicalreasons behind some of this
stuff being illegal.
But a mushroom that grows out ofthe ground that has been used
for thousands of years by ourancestors for various spiritual
(34:45):
practices is It is a beautifuland amazing tool if used
properly.
Microdosing, and a lot of peopledon't know, you're talking about
very small amounts.
We're not talking about seeingpsychedelic images and losing
yourself and freaking out.
There's none of that at all.
For example, if I'm going to goon a hike on a Saturday, I'll
wake up, have my breakfast, havemy coffee, and I'll take a small
(35:07):
piece of a mushroom, a cap or astem, small, and I'll munch on
that just as I hit the trail.
And within an hour and a half orso, it's this calmness that
washes over you.
It's not intense at all.
It's just a very calm feeling.
And the best way I coulddescribe it, it's like someone's
giving you a shoulder rub andyou're just like, oh, there it
(35:29):
is.
So nice.
And that'll last for a goodcouple hours.
And then for the next fewdays...
That residual stays.
My social anxiety, my anxiety,it just calms down, and I see
the world slightly different,and I feel more wonderment
towards nature, and I feel morecreative.
(35:49):
And again, this is slight, butif you're microdosing regularly,
which I have for, I would say,going on five years now, and
I'll take breaks.
I'll take breaks where I don'ttouch it at all.
I'm a firm believer in it.
I think it's absolutelywonderful.
It can change everything andhelp you be more engaged, more
present, more appreciative, andagain, more creative.
(36:09):
It's helped me with writer'sblock and I've gotten off it by
microdosing.
I've been in really dark placesand I'll microdose and I come
out of it so much quicker.
than if I didn't do that.
So to me, it's nature'smedicine.
But you got to be really carefulwith that.
You have to know who you'regetting it from.
You have to know the sciencebehind it, how much.
So there's a lot that goes intoit.
You can't just jump in and go,yeah, I'm going to microdose.
(36:31):
Don't.
Don't take it.
Because if you take too much andyou're not in a good mental
state, it can exacerbate thatsituation.
So you've got to be reallycareful with that.
But I'm a firm believer in it.
I think nature provides us,whether that's cannabis,
edibles.
I can't smoke anything becauseit's my voice.
But cannabis is beautiful too.
certain amounts and certainstrains.
Do your research though, forsure.
(36:53):
And then be careful of thelegalities.
SPEAKER_00 (36:56):
Yeah, there's definitely things you have to
think about there.
Now you mentioned edibles also.
Is that something that you do onoccasion or how does that play a
part with your mental health?
SPEAKER_04 (37:08):
Yeah, that's definitely on occasion.
Because with marijuana edibles,that can cause anxiety big time
for me.
So I have to know what strain itis, how many milligrams.
That stuff is super importantbecause some of the worst
feelings in places I've everbeen were for taking too many
and too high of a dosage in thewrong type of edible.
(37:30):
That can be bad if you've gotanxiety.
It can cause panic attacks,which it did for me.
So yeah, when I find the rightdosage and the right edible,
because I've experimented with abunch of different types, and I
like to make it myself too if Ican.
Because I like to make sure it'sorganic, doesn't have chemicals
in it.
There's so many factors that gointo this, but I try to be as
healthy as I can.
(37:51):
So recently, a friend of minegave me these little caramel
ones.
They're really nice, and I justbite like a little one-fourth
piece off, and it's justperfect.
It's just a nice, warm, fuzzy,relaxed feeling.
Anxiety goes away.
I'm thinking clearer.
I have aha moments.
It's really good medicine.
but it's different foreverybody.
So it's trial and error forsure.
(38:12):
And I would always say startsmall.
So everything in moderation, Ibelieve that's where I'm at
these days, everything inmoderation.
SPEAKER_00 (38:21):
Yeah, that's good advice.
You know, one thing I read wasthat when you were going through
your depression and anxiety,that you would mention it to
people and they would say thingslike, Oh, snap out of it.
It's not that bad.
You're overreacting.
All of those things that can beso hurtful when you're not doing
(38:43):
well.
If somebody came up to you todayand said that to you, like, I'm
not feeling well.
I feel like I'm depressed.
What would you say to them?
SPEAKER_04 (38:52):
Talk to me about it.
What's going on?
Sit there and listen.
I've had those moments.
I've had those moments with thefans and it stops me in my
tracks.
And I'm like, okay.
I'm going to make time rightnow.
That's happened to me where Iwill say out loud because this
person's saying it out loud.
Give me a few minutes, guys.
I'll get to everybody.
And within two to five minutes,just that person telling their
(39:15):
story, you can almost see theexhale.
Like they just needed to sharethat.
And sometimes that's all it is.
It's just listening.
And you don't always have togive advice.
You don't always have to try tofix it.
And that's something I had tolearn.
It's something I'm stilllearning.
Being present to someone whenthey're speaking.
without the, you're ready to saysomething, you're ready to
(39:37):
counteract, you're ready toargue, you're ready to fix or
give advice.
Most people do that.
I was definitely, I'm stillpartially one of those people.
I stop myself and I look attheir face and I watch their
body language and I just, I'mpresent.
And then I will interject withthings, letting them know I'm
listening.
Yeah, I hear you.
(39:57):
Oh man, that's terrible.
That stuff is powerful.
If you're just listening tosomebody talk, That could be the
difference between a really badnight and a night where they're
like, oh, I'm not so alone here.
And if it's a dear friend, spendthe evening with them, go take
them out to dinner.
And it's important to givepeople that time if you can,
(40:17):
because that could make a hugedifference.
SPEAKER_00 (40:21):
Right.
It not only shows you care, butit allows them to let out.
everything that they've beenholding in and just like when
you go to a metal show or one ofyour shows kids are going nuts
they're in the mosh pit that's arelease at a show it's a
physical release it's anemotional release but listening
to somebody is a release ofwhat's honestly going on with
(40:46):
them.
And I do think that once we'rereally honest with ourselves and
honest with somebody else thatis caring and compassionate,
that really can make thedifference between somebody
getting help and even going foranother day.
Because depression does bringalong thoughts, suicidal
thoughts.
Whether we like it or not, it'spart of the condition.
(41:06):
And if we start believing thosethoughts, of course it could be
fatal.
And we don't want that.
We don't want to believe thosethoughts that really are lies
that depression is telling you.
SPEAKER_04 (41:20):
Yeah, 100%.
Because when you go throughthose situations and you come
out of them and you look back onthem, there's a part of you that
doesn't understand how you gotthere.
You're like, how did I get tothat point?
And I think that's been thewhole journey for me is
understanding how you get tothat point and how you can
prevent getting to that point.
And suicide is the end game.
(41:41):
There's no turning back fromthat.
There's no turning back.
You can do stupid things.
You can make poor decisions andlearn your lesson.
But with suicide, it's likethere's no lesson to be learned.
That's it.
So that's, to me, been mybiggest motivator for speaking
up is trying to prevent peoplefrom that.
And then you get to somebody whois in that dark place, finds the
(42:04):
way out.
They become...
a catalyst for change.
They become somebody who's goingto help the next person.
That's the beauty of the peopleI meet in this field, is there's
so much compassion and love.
Some of the sweetest, mostkind-hearted, amazing, solid
human beings are people who workin the mental health field and
have become friends of mine.
(42:24):
They're like-minded people.
And that's what's beautifulabout it.
If you're driven by demons tothis dark place, and you find
your angel to help pull you upout of it, you're going to
spread the word.
You're going to be like, oh,there is help.
I got help.
You can get help.
Here's how it works.
Let's talk about this shit.
That's powerful.
And it's an energy thatcontinues to reciprocate.
(42:46):
And once you get into thatenergy, that beautiful
reciprocated energy of peoplewho work in the mental health
field, it's addictive.
You want to be around thesepeople and you want to help
because it just fulfills yoursoul.
It's a beautiful cycle thatstarts once you're pulled out of
that dark place and you see thelight, you can't not talk about
it.
(43:07):
It's like being born again,Christian, you know, I can't
stop talking about Jesus.
Like I get it.
Yep.
I get it.
SPEAKER_00 (43:13):
Yeah.
And what you're saying aboutgive and take is the perfect
thing with anything you lovereally is this beautiful give
and take, you know, giving andreceiving that can also relate
to, you know, loving partner andfriendships and things like
that.
And There are times in our lifewhere we thought something was a
(43:34):
good friend or something wasgood for us.
And it may have been at onepoint, but things change.
People change or things getclearer to you.
You change and people may bedetrimental to us to be able to
recognize that and part withthem.
And it's hard.
I think even when we part withsomething that is not good for
(43:57):
us, there's grieving sometimes.
Because it was part of our lifefor a long time.
And having to go through thatprocess and come out of it and
be a better person and havebetter experiences is really the
part that makes it all worth it,right?
SPEAKER_04 (44:14):
Yeah, that and protection of yourself.
The whole learning to read thesigns with friendships,
especially new friendships,which I'm very wary when I make
new friends.
But when you've got people whoare latching on to you that...
are not contributing to yourfriendship.
I call them vampires,bloodsuckers, these people who
just, they just drain you.
(44:35):
And I've had enough of thosepeople in my life and through my
circle of friends where you justget to that point where you just
can't, you can't invest energyin that anymore.
And as difficult as it is, youdon't want to hurt anyone's
feelings, but you just can't doit.
I think a lot of people strugglewith that.
We all have those people in ourlives that are just, they're not
good for you.
And the best thing you can dois, especially if you're
(45:00):
suffering, is cut them off.
And it sounds cruel, but man,some of the best decisions I've
ever made are just deadingpeople.
Like, I don't wish you harm.
I'm not angry.
Just go.
Go that way.
I don't need it anymore.
Easier said than done, but whata crucial power move it is for
your soul.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (45:19):
You've talked a lot about your life, and I want to
focus on how you are today andwhat makes you happy.
SPEAKER_04 (45:27):
Yeah, I was talking about this recently.
Time.
It's something that I've alwaystaken for granted, especially
when you have a life that isnonstop.
The life of a touringmusician...
you can't catch your breath.
You're out for a month and ahalf, two months, you're back
(45:48):
for two weeks, and you're backout for two months, three
months.
As amazing as that is tosomebody who's going through it,
and then people from the outsidebeing like, you live the ideal
life, rock star, I get all ofit.
I get it, but it's tough.
It's really tough.
And you miss out on so manythings, so many moments.
(46:10):
And one thing I was saying rightbefore The world shut down and I
was forced to stay home.
I remember venting to mygirlfriend with tears in my eyes
saying, all I want to do is justbe here long enough to watch the
seasons change.
I want to see winter turn tospring.
(46:30):
Something so simple and it seemsso funny to some people, but I
want enough time to watch aseason change.
And little did I know, I wouldget my wish.
And at first, it was hard todeal with because I'm so not
used to staying still.
And you go through the processof, wow, this is my life now.
The world's going to shit.
What are we going through?
All the anxieties.
(46:52):
And then I finally got to apoint where I saw the seasons
change.
And my girlfriend reminded me,hey, do you remember what you
said six months ago when youwere exhausted from the road?
Here you are.
And it was like a light bulbwent off in my head.
And I was like, oh, yeah.
I've got time.
I don't have a schedule.
I don't have any tours.
(47:13):
For now, my bills are beingpaid, thankfully, because I had
some money put away.
So there was a chunk of timewhere I was able to just be
still and go out in nature andwatch bees pollinate the
flowers, birds.
And I would spend hours verymeditatively sitting, sitting by
a stream and just listening andwatching.
(47:36):
And it became this ritual, whichis very much a part of what I
need nowadays.
I do it on a regular basis nowbecause I've realized what a
luxury that is.
Who gets to do that?
You got people pulling you inall these different directions.
And that was my life forever.
And this past year and a half orso, I experienced for the first
time, absolute, completeZen-like stillness.
(47:58):
And time has become such aprecious thing to me.
Taking moments for myself to beat peace and having a sense of
gratitude for all the thingsthat have been bestowed upon me.
Those two things are superimportant to me now.
And I will continue to practicethem.
SPEAKER_00 (48:14):
Hopefully we can continue these wonderful things
that we've learned in thepandemic and have a nice,
beautiful hybrid of being ableto enjoy the outside world and
also keep that inside worldreally nice and beautiful too.
SPEAKER_04 (48:31):
That's the plan.
I like that.
Hybrid.
I like that.
I'm going to steal that.
Hybrid me.
I know.
When I get back on the road, I'ma hybrid now.
That's good.
I like that.
It's a gift.
Every morning when we wake up,it is a gift.
And if you view it as such, withgratitude in your heart, it'll
change your whole day.
I promise you.
SPEAKER_00 (48:50):
Next up, we have the world-renowned expert on suicide
prevention, who also receivedthe Service to Humanity Award as
a Champion of Change byPresident Barack Obama.
Our expert today is Dr.
Dan Ridenberg.
Dr.
Dan also heads up the nonprofitSave.org, which stands for
Suicide Awareness, Voices ofEducation.
(49:11):
Dr.
Dan will share with us the keywarning signs and behaviors of
someone who may be at risk forsuicide, and also what we can do
and say to someone at risk thatcan possibly save a life.
You know, Jesse Leach talkedabout the importance of
listening to others, especiallywhen they're going through a
tough time.
But it's also really importantto know what to look for if
(49:34):
somebody is hurting and also howto respond to that person.
So first of all, what are someof the warning signs of someone
who may be at risk for suicide?
SPEAKER_01 (49:44):
Some of those risk factors might be family history
of mental health issues, familyhistory of chemical health
issues, family history ofsuicide.
We have warning signs.
These are the things that weknow that people have done in
the past prior to their suicide.
The ones that are most importantare, number one, anybody
communicating their intent todie.
(50:04):
Now, most people don't just comeout and say, I'm going to go
kill myself tomorrow at thistime, at this place, and this is
how I'm going to do it.
It's often far more disguisedthan that.
It's far more indirect.
It might be a statement like, myfamily would be better off
without me, or my team would bebetter off without me, or I'm
just a burden on everybody'splate.
Those are suicidal kinds ofcommunications, and we need to
(50:25):
pay attention to those just asmuch as we do Those direct
statements that do happen, justnot as frequently.
So anybody communicating theirintent is a number one warning
sign.
Now the second and equallyimportant warning sign has to do
with looking for a way to die.
We know that those people whodied by suicide looked for a way
(50:46):
to die they might have searchedonline for methods on how to
take their life they might havegone around their house and
looked for whether it was aweapon or with something sharp
or a rope or a place where theycould do this they might have
looked for medicines that theycould take all different kinds
of ways to die by suicide ofcourse but they somehow searched
(51:06):
out and looked for a way to dieso if we have any idea any
inclination any observation ofsomebody communicating their
intent and looking for a way todie.
Those are the two primarywarning signs.
The next set of warning signsthat we really want people to
pay attention to are statementsthat somebody might make such
as, I feel like I'm just aburden.
(51:27):
There's no hope for me anymore.
I don't really have a future infront of me.
There's no purpose for me to bearound any longer.
I feel really trapped byeverything and there's no way
out.
These kinds of statements,combined with some of those risk
factors, not having enoughprotective factors, maybe a
mental health issue, maybe someother problems in their life,
that's when we know that thesewarning signs really set off a
(51:51):
triggering set of events.
Those are the kinds of things wereally want people to pay
attention to when it comes towarning signs.
SPEAKER_00 (51:58):
So once we start to hear warning signs and behaviors
of somebody that we feel is asuicide risk, what are some of
the things that we can do tohelp those people or to guide
them in the right direction?
So
SPEAKER_01 (52:13):
there are some simple things that everybody can
do because we know that forabout half of the people that
make a final decision that theywant to die by suicide and they
carry it out or attempt atsuicide, it's less than 10
minutes.
not enough time to get to adoctor, not enough time to get
to a hospital.
What that means is thateverybody has to know some of
(52:33):
these warning signs.
Everybody's got to be able to doa few things.
First thing is we need to knowthat it's okay to ask about
suicide.
Most people still are veryafraid to ask about suicide.
They think that if they askabout it, it's going to lead
somebody down that path, or it'sgoing to make them want to do it
more, or it's going to put anidea in their head that wasn't
there before.
We have a wealth of data thattells us that isn't true.
(52:56):
And in fact, The opposite can betrue.
If you ask somebody who might bethinking about suicide, you can
actually reduce their level ofdistress.
You can reduce their level ofanxiety.
So we need to know that it isokay to ask and we need to know
how to ask the question.
So that's the second thing.
If you're worried aboutsomebody, If you have a gut
(53:18):
feeling that something isn'tright, there's been a change in
behavior, there's been a changein things that they're saying,
and you're worried about it, andyou decide you're going to ask
about it, that's a good thing.
You must ask the question with afatality component to it.
That's really important, butI've got to back up one second
here.
If you're just not sure what'sgoing on, if you just think
(53:40):
something might be going on, butyou're not sure exactly what it
is, start a conversation withsomebody.
How are you doing?
It doesn't seem like you've beenyourself lately.
Are there things going on thatare really troubling you?
Are you really strugglingthrough?
You can ask these more broadquestions just to see where
their thinking is at, theiremotions.
That's okay.
If you are concerned thatsomebody really might be at risk
(54:02):
of suicide, have those riskfactors.
They have warning signs.
We've got to ask the question.
It's got to be very direct.
We've got to make sure that wesay something about death or
dying.
And the reason for that is ifsomebody is actually thinking
about death or dying by theirown hand, we don't ask about
that.
We're going to miss where theirbrain is at.
(54:23):
We've got to be really clearwith them.
Is this what you're thinking?
Would you just rather be dead?
Do you don't want to live anylonger?
You just don't like lifeanymore?
That's okay.
So now that you've asked, thenext thing is to listen.
And we need to make sure thatwhen we're listening to people,
we spend more time listeningthan we do talking.
We need to listen more.
(54:45):
We need to listen for thingslike, Do they think about the
future?
Do they have any hope for thefuture or hope for getting
better?
Have they ever been in treatmentbefore?
Has it ever worked for them?
Were they compliant withtreatment, taking their meds or
seeing their doctors?
We need to listen for, do theyhave specific reasons to live?
I want to get to this graduationor I want to see my kids have
(55:05):
children or I want to get to mywedding date or my retirement,
whatever it is, because thosereasons to live are the kinds of
things that we can actually useto have a conversation with
them.
And that can deescalate peoplevery quickly.
We want to make sure that we'relistening non-judgmentally.
We don't want to judge somebodywho's thinking about suicide or
struggling with mental healthissues.
(55:27):
Whatever their thoughts are,whatever their feelings are,
they're theirs and we need toacknowledge them and recognize
them and say, look, I may notunderstand what you're going
through.
I may not be able to feel whatyou're feeling right now, but
that doesn't mean I don't care.
And it doesn't mean I can'tsupport you.
And it doesn't mean I don't wantto be here for you because I do.
So we want to listen.
(55:49):
We want to make sure that wereflect that back to them.
And then we want to respond tothem.
We want to make sure that theyknow that we're going to be
there to support them.
We want to make sure that theyknow that there's resources out
there.
The ones that you mentioned, theones that are on your website.
Those are the kinds of things wewant to give them.
to somebody who has that tunnelvision that doesn't know that
there are alternatives andoptions.
(56:10):
The more we can give that tosomeone who's struggling, the
more they're going to believe inus and the more that they're
going to want to have aconversation with us.
Now, one more thing that'sreally important here.
If you're having a conversationwith someone and they're really
struggling and they may say, youknow, I've thought about it.
I wouldn't ever do it.
(56:31):
But I've thought about it.
And they're talking aboutsuicide.
Make sure you don't leave themalone.
We know that if you leavesomebody alone that just
discloses this and you say,okay, this is really important.
You and I need to talk aboutthis.
Let's meet an hour.
Let's meet in two hours.
Tragically, sometimes that twohours is too late.
And it increases their shame.
(56:53):
around this when you put thatoff.
If somebody's talking to youabout a life or death thing,
it's no different than ifthey're having a heart attack.
You don't say, I'm going to getback to you and perform CPR in a
couple hours, or I'm going toget you to a doctor in a couple
hours.
We shouldn't do that hereeither.
We need to be ready to say,look, if that's what you're
thinking about, we need to talkto somebody else right now.
(57:15):
Let's get you to a professional.
Let's get you connected tosomebody.
I'm not going to leave you aloneuntil we know that everything's
going to be safe.
Those are really importantthings to do if somebody's at
risk of suicide.
SPEAKER_00 (57:27):
Yeah, I want people to know too that it may not even
be a loved one that has care andcompassion for you.
It could be somebody in asupport group.
Because there are people outthere that feel like they don't
have anyone that they can dependon.
But people do care out there.
And I do think that thosequestions show care and
compassion.
Oftentimes, just that feelingcan help somebody really rethink
(57:49):
ending their life.
The other thing is depression,as an example, other mood
disorders as well.
One of the symptoms, it can befixating on suicide as part of
the disorder.
So...
If somebody is going throughthat and scared that they're
thinking this way, it's part ofthe disorder.
Once you're back into balance,you may not have those thoughts
(58:11):
anymore.
SPEAKER_01 (58:13):
That's exactly right.
There are a number of symptomsof these various illnesses.
Obviously, most people thinkabout depression and depression
obviously has a depressed moodwhere you're unhappy and you're
very sad.
You might be very tearful.
You might have physical symptomssuch as you don't want to eat or
you eat too much or your sleepis off.
Either you sleep too much or toolittle or it's very distressed
(58:35):
kind of sleep.
You might have no energy.
You might have no drive, nointerest in anything any longer.
But you're exactly right.
Some people that live withdepression do think about
suicide.
It is one of the symptoms of it.
Not everybody does, but somepeople do.
So we need to make sure thatWhen we're talking to somebody
who is in any way strugglingwith a mental health issue, we
(58:57):
want to check things out.
We want to make sure we'reasking the right questions and
keeping people safe and gettingthem through the crisis.
And most of the time, it is truethat anybody can be a support
system.
SPEAKER_00 (59:11):
So, Dr.
Dan, is there anything else thatyou would like to say about
Save.org or about suicideprevention?
SPEAKER_01 (59:20):
We know that suicide is a preventable death.
And if we can all be involved inthis, if we can all get over
that shame and those negativewords that are attributed to
mental health issues, and we canbe honest and compassionate with
those that are struggling,they're going to open up to us.
And if they open up to us, it'san opportunity to save a life.
(59:41):
Anytime we can do that, makethat connection and save
somebody's life, we know it hasripple effects, not just for
that person and their family andtheir work or their school,
their friends, their community,the world.
It changes the world whensomebody stays alive.
And that all just takes a littlebit of time and a little bit of
compassion and a little bit ofwillingness to stand up and say,
(01:00:02):
I'm going to be there for you.
And the more people that we cancome on board with that, the
more lives we're going to save.
So we all have a part in thisand we all have an opportunity
to save lives.
And you're doing this andbringing this to light really
does make a difference.
And so I'm grateful for you andyour words and the Check Your
Head podcast.
And I hope everybody that's outthere hears this says, if I can
(01:00:24):
do one thing and save somebody'slife today, I'm going to do
that.
SPEAKER_00 (01:00:28):
A big thank you to our musical guest, Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
(01:01:00):
For more information, visitkillswitchengage.com.
For more information on Times ofGrace and to purchase their new
album, Songs of Loss andSeparation, visit
timesofgraceband.com.
We'll also be playing a clip ofTimes of Grace's single, The
Burden of Belief, soon, so staytuned for that.
For more information on Dr.
(01:01:22):
Dan Reidenberg and hisnonprofit, Suicide Awareness
Voices of Education, visitsave.org.
So until next time, be brave,ask for help, and be persistent
in finding the mental healththat you need.
SPEAKER_03 (01:01:37):
This journey has brought me to my I
SPEAKER_00 (01:02:10):
still believe I cannot let go Thank you for your
(01:02:45):
support and thank you forlistening.
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