November 17, 2021 • 60 mins
Mari Fong interviews Katelyn Tarver, singer-songwriter and actress, and Dr. Adi Jaffe, psychologist, addiction specialist, and author of The Abstinence Myth.
Katelyn Tarver shares her story and solutions for living with anxiety and teen self-doubt, growing up in the spotlight as a young girl. Katelyn was only 16 when her first EP was released, followed by 5 more EPs before winning NBC's "Songland" in 2019. Katelyn was only 14 when she first debuted on television, often feeling overwhelming fear and nervousness throughout her career.
Next, we have Part 2 of the interview with expert Dr. Adi Jaffe, Ph.D, psychologist and author of the book,The Abstinence Myth. Dr. Jaffe shares the importance of finding the root causes of addiction and how therapy can be essential to longtime recovery and sobriety. He explains his unique approach with the IGNTD program.
“Be brave, ask for help, and be persistent in finding the mental help that you need.” For free and affordable solutions for mental health and addiction recovery, visit: http://checkyourheadpodcast.com/
* Donate to our mission at checkyourheadpodcast.com or on our patreon.com page. Every dollar is appreciated, every listener is appreciated.
- THANK YOU for following us on social media @checkyourheadpodcast
- Watch and subscribe to our YouTube Channel: checkyourheadpodcast.youtube
Say hello and give us feedback! We love hearing from our Superhero fans ❤️🤘
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_02 (00:00):
Welcome to the Check Your Head Podcast, the podcast
where notable musicians andexperts share their stories and
solutions for mental health andwellness.
I'm your host, Mari Fong, amusic journalist and life coach
for musicians, and November isthe month of Thanksgiving when
we show our thanks and gratitudeto those around us with our
(00:23):
words and our actions.
With Thanksgiving, we think offamily, Thank you so much for
joining me today.
(00:57):
I'm truly grateful for thisexperience and I'm proud to say
that we're now in the top 3% ofpodcasts worldwide and that is
all thanks to you.
Thank you for your reviews, yourfollows and likes on our
socials, YouTube views, andespecially for being part of the
positive difference of bettermental health for us all.
You are my check your headsuperheroes.
(01:20):
Now to our featured guests.
You may have first seen thissinger-songwriter and actress on
the Nickelodeon series Big TimeRush or on the HBO series
Ballers, but her first taste ofmusical fame was co-writing
Cheryl Cole's number one UKsingle Crazy Stupid Love and
then released six EPs of her ownmusic before winning NBC's
(01:42):
Songland in 2019.
Today's musical guest is indiepop artist Caitlin Tarver.
whose album Subject to Changedropped on November 12, 2021,
and we'll play a clip of hersingle Shit Happens at the end
of our episode.
Caitlin shares her real-worldsolutions for dealing with the
anxiety and self-doubt thatcomes with her career, and how
(02:05):
she spills her moods into songslike You Don't Know, a song that
captured how it feels whenyou're not okay, and the many
songs on her new album filledwith emotional honesty and
vulnerability.
Next, we have part two of ourinterview with expert Dr.
Adi Jaffe, a PhD psychologistand author of the book, The
Abstinence Myth.
(02:27):
Dr.
Jaffe shares the importance ofplaying detective when finding
the root causes of addiction andalso how therapy can be
essential to long-term recoveryand sobriety.
But first, let's hear CaitlinTarver share her story.
Caitlin, congratulations.
on your upcoming album that'scalled Subject to Change.
(02:48):
You know, some people know youas an actress, but you are also
a longtime singer-songwriter.
And one thing I read that Ireally loved was that you wanted
to write songs currently thatmake people feel less crazy for
feeling how they feel.
And haven't we all gone throughtimes like that?
(03:08):
Haven't we?
You know, And I do believe thatalbums kind of represent a
chapter in our lives.
How do the songs on Subject toChange sort of represent this
chapter of your life?
SPEAKER_01 (03:22):
You know, I think even with what I was saying of
making people feel less crazy,I've just, in the past few
years, really been drawn to artthat is more vulnerable, more
saying things that are like,maybe small things that have
been in my head and things thatI don't really feel comfortable
saying out loud or wonder if I'mallowed to say out loud.
(03:45):
And when you hear it, it justgives you such a sense of
comfort because you're like,okay, I'm not alone.
I'm not crazy.
I'm not the only one who feelsthis way.
And that's kind of an elementaryconcept, but I just...
got more and more drawn to thisidea of trying to dig deeper
within myself and find thosethings that I was thinking and
(04:05):
figure out how to say them outloud through my songs.
And I looked up to other artiststhat were doing that.
And so with this album inparticular, I started therapy
last summer.
So it helped just unlock a lotof, I don't know, just the
courage to just put stuff outthere and into the songs that I
(04:25):
normally would have shied awayfrom.
And you know, I still feel likein a lot of ways, I'm just
starting to scratch the surfaceof this.
But I do feel like these songscapture a side of me that feels
a little more raw, if you will.
So yeah, it's everything youcould imagine I'm feeling, I am
(04:46):
feeling, which is excitement,nerves across the board.
But yeah, it's happening, youknow, no going back now.
SPEAKER_02 (04:55):
That's true.
And you know, It takes a lot ofbravery to peel back the layers.
And so I congratulate you onthat.
You also mentioned startingtherapy last summer.
So big props to you on thatalso.
What is it that's prompted youto start therapy?
SPEAKER_01 (05:11):
I mean, I've been in this industry essentially since
I was 13 years old.
And now I'm 31.
So basically half my life.
And it was just a lot of What Iwas experiencing with trying to
pursue this career and whilealso growing up and graduating
(05:35):
high school and then moving toLA and then I got married young
and being a few years into amarriage and sort of hitting
that late 20s slump of justlike, okay, I'm old enough to
have made certain decisions thatI am now can either look back
(05:57):
and be happy I did or look backand be like, oh, I wish I would
have done that a little bitdifferently.
And just kind of trying to makesense of the choices I have made
and how they affect my life andwhat I want to keep and what I
want to shift.
Just all that stuff that was alot of reevaluation of my life
of like, why am I doing this?
Do I want to still keep pursuingmusic?
(06:19):
Do I want to still keep pursuingacting?
In what way?
What do I even like about this?
Why am I doing it?
Am I just doing it for fame?
It was just all those questionsstarted coming up.
It's a lot of work to kind oftake stock of your life and be
like, okay, I feel a little outof sort.
What am I going to do about it?
(06:40):
And for me, I put off therapyfor years because I was like,
well, I'm fine.
I'm just having a moody week.
UNKNOWN (06:49):
But
SPEAKER_01 (06:49):
Because I didn't get this part I auditioned for and
whatever, I'll get over it.
And then I think you realizeyears pass and you're still
feeling in this funk and you'relike, well, I got to face it at
some point or another.
And then obviously throw apandemic on top of it.
And that was enough to make memake the call.
SPEAKER_02 (07:12):
Good for you.
I mean, it almost sounds likeyou've got to a point where you
really want to plan out.
Right.
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (07:45):
They are, but for me, I think I kind of
unconsciously was a person thatwas like, I want to make all the
right moves.
I want to plan my life out so Idon't experience any turbulence.
I am going to move to LA.
I'm going to do this career.
I'm going to get married.
I'm going to check all theseboxes so that I don't have any
(08:05):
surprises that will throw me offcourse.
Obviously, that's just notrealistic.
For me, unconsciously, justcraving certainty craving
control craving a path that feltsecure and all the while being
in a career that is none ofthose things and also realizing
(08:29):
that life is none of thosethings I think a big thing for
me in the past few years andeven in going through therapy is
like how much I want tocertainty about things and I
want solid ground and I don'tlike unknown and I don't like
change.
I don't like when things throwme off and life just kept doing
that.
That's a lot of what I learned.
(08:50):
And honestly, what the album istouching on and even why I
called it subject to change isjust sort of wanting to learn
how to be open to life'suncertainty and realizing that
it's okay to not know everythingor not be sure or not have a
mapped out path.
(09:11):
It's okay to make mistakes.
It's okay to not be aperfectionist.
All that kind of stuff, I'mtrying to rework in my brain and
a lot of what I was workingthrough while making this album.
SPEAKER_02 (09:25):
It comes with experience and with maturity to
realize that we only have somuch control over what happens
with our life.
You know, we try to steerthings, but wrenches get thrown
in.
And my God, the pandemic is anexcellent example of that.
SPEAKER_01 (09:44):
Right.
It's like this perfect metaphor.
No one could have seen thatcoming.
It's derailed everything.
And now you have to figure outhow to pick up the pieces.
It's like, okay, got it.
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (09:58):
And you know, you had a song.
It was called You Don't Know.
And that's the one that got 56million views.
And it was voted by ParadeMagazine as one of the
depression songs that will helpyou feel less alone.
And from that, can you remembersome of the comments or messages
(10:18):
that you received from your fansabout
SPEAKER_01 (10:21):
the song?
My God, there's been so many atthis point, which is just so
crazy.
Yeah.
It can be easy for me and allartists to kind of forget like
what we're all ultimately afteris to try and connect with
people and try to offer somesort of connection through our
(10:44):
art and what we write or say.
And it can get clouded by tryingto measure your success against
other people or like how manystreams or numbers or
popularity, you know.
I can get so overtaken withwanting all of these markers of
success and forgetting thatreally the marker of success
should be getting these messagesfrom fans that are like, this
(11:08):
song helped me make sense of myanxiety or my depression or
helped me feel less alone.
I mean, I've gotten hundreds andhundreds, even the comments on
the video still to this day,they're still piling up of
people saying, just saying howmuch it's helped them it helps
(11:28):
me to continue to press intothat feeling of trying to
communicate what that song isabout which is essentially it's
okay to feel sadness to feelheaviness to feel you know kind
of these quote unquote negativeemotions like We all feel those
things and it's okay to not justlike gloss over them and put a
(11:51):
bandaid and present this versionof yourself that's happy,
perfect person.
That's what that song tappedinto was just, you know, there's
almost like a frustration in thelyrics of, hey, like, just let
me feel this for a second.
I'm not saying I want to livehere forever or that I should
live here forever, but I don'tknow.
That's kind of the sense that Iget when people talk to me about
(12:14):
it.
It's like it helps them feelsomething in a way that maybe
helped it feel a little lessheavy.
So it's really meaningful.
SPEAKER_02 (12:24):
A lot of that song is about acceptance, acceptance
of the full range of emotionsthat we all have.
Because I do find that sometimesthere are certain people that
will only accept us when we havethe acceptable emotions,
according to them.
And when you you approach themand you're honest, they will be
(12:46):
like, well, snap out of this.
Or how could you feel that waywhen your life is going so good?
And all of these comments thatcan be really hurtful when
you're in a bad place.
And we all have certain people,special people in our lives
where we have that bond where wecan be our true selves.
(13:06):
Who is that for you?
And how did that trust
SPEAKER_01 (13:10):
bond develop?
Gosh, I mean, I've always had areally supportive family.
I got married young.
So I've been with my husband.
We've been married seven years.
We've been together for 11.
So, I mean, I started dating himwhen I was 20.
So we definitely have a prettydeep bond of acceptance.
(13:31):
And he's very encouraging of medoing exactly what I want to do
and saying exactly what I wantto say and putting my work out
there, which I think has...
really helped me have theconfidence to keep doing it.
And I feel very lucky.
I feel like I am surrounded by alot of people who allow me to be
(13:53):
myself and have these emotions.
You're right.
It does make a huge differencewhen you have that in your life
as opposed to not.
You just feel a lot safer tohave these messy emotions and be
able to kind of put it out thereand not be judged for it or feel
like you're too much.
(14:13):
I mean, a lot of reason of why Istarted therapy too, is like,
you can have someone that youpay to say these things too.
Cause yeah, eventually yourfamily's like, all right, yeah,
we get it enough.
It's hard.
But I think ultimately I do feellike I have their support, which
I'm really grateful for.
You
SPEAKER_02 (14:32):
know, you have that song called you can fall apart
too.
Yeah.
And that's kind of what itreminds me of is this, the
ability to, To be able to fallapart to somebody and that they
are going to be there for you.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (14:48):
You know, that was honestly kind of about my
marriage and my relationship.
I felt like I was becoming theone that was always complaining
or having these big feelings andputting them on to him and
expecting him to be able tocarry it.
And then realized having thismoment of like, Oh, I want to be
(15:11):
that for you too.
I want to be able to make sureI'm a place that you can feel
safe to come to as well.
And I had to kind of think aboutthat and reassess how I was
unloading a lot of my emotionsall the time.
And maybe it wasn't even, but wealso just have different
personalities.
And I think that was kind of thesentiment.
(15:31):
It's like a song about wantingto be a safe space for someone
or a safe place for someone toland.
Yeah, that's a special one tome.
SPEAKER_02 (15:42):
Well, you know, the one song I've been able to hear
from your new album, it's calledShit Happens.
Yes.
And that happens to all of us inour lives, sometimes on a daily
basis.
Yep.
There's a habit that happens isthat we look for blame.
What do you think the danger isin doing that?
Looking for blame when things
SPEAKER_01 (16:04):
go wrong.
Oh, man.
It can just be a habit.
It can be kind of like anunconscious thing.
It's like an attempt forcontrol.
It's an attempt for, okay, if Ican figure out who to blame
here, then I can put the blameon them.
Therefore, this shitty thingthat happened makes sense.
(16:25):
So I don't feel like everythingis chaos or random.
It's one thing when it's like, Ispilled coffee on my shirt
earlier.
It's like, oh, okay.
shoot you know there's likethese light-hearted every day
kind of shit happens moments andthen there's tragic awful
(16:46):
horrific experiences that humansface that that's what can be
really challenging like well whoare you gonna blame for this
because most things like thatdon't have anyone to blame and
that's kind of the heart of thesong is just talking about that
balance of Okay, is it reallygoing to make it better if you
(17:06):
find someone to blame?
Usually not.
For me, it doesn't.
I mean, oh, okay, I guess I knownow who to blame.
Is that really that helpful?
With the bigger kind of tragicevents in life, most of the
time, those have no explanation.
And anyone who tries to make itseem like it does, it's just
(17:28):
uncomfortable with the fact thatthat can happen, which I totally
connect to.
It's scary to think of thingsthat could happen or things that
will never make sense.
I feel like I've been chippingaway at this message since I
wrote You Don't Know, which Iwrote a long time ago.
It's sort of like this, hey,let's all just not try to gloss
(17:50):
over the hard parts of lifebecause ultimately they can be
healing if you face them.
I
SPEAKER_02 (17:59):
think there's also a bond that happens when we share.
something really tough about ourlives with somebody.
And I feel sometimes that it'skind of a special moment when
someone trusts me to tell meabout that.
And when you're going throughsomething with somebody as
trying your best to help eachother, it's something that you
(18:22):
don't forget because you knowthat person has been with you
during the good times, which iseasy, and during the bad times,
which can be can be tough, butthat person was there.
Yeah.
They didn't go away.
Yeah.
And it's so easy to step away.
Oh
SPEAKER_01 (18:42):
yeah, for sure.
It is hard to make it throughthe times that are challenging
because, you know, when you gothrough a hard time, it's not
like you can guarantee you'llhave a week where you feel down
and then you'll snap back intoyour old self.
I mean, some things linger foryears and I think that's, really
(19:02):
uncomfortable.
It's really challenging to dealwith in yourself and with people
close to you.
But it is bonding and it almostfeels like the point of life to
like be there for each other.
So, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (19:16):
You started to do these Instagram live streams
during the pandemic.
Yeah.
And they've gotten reallypopular.
Yeah.
What was your initial purposefor coming up with this whole
idea?
SPEAKER_01 (19:29):
Everyone was going...
live at the time, you know, thepandemic hit, like tours were
getting canceled.
Everything was going insane.
And everyone was like, let's golive and try to talk to each
other.
Oh, that could be fun.
I was putting some music out.
I was about to go on tour andthen that got canceled.
So it was also just something todo because everything came to a
(19:52):
screeching halt.
And then I kind of just keptdoing it because I was like,
well, this is kind of fun forme.
I like getting to talk to peopleand having a good time doing
this.
People seem to still want totalk to me and people are
watching it.
So I'm just going to keep doingit.
But yeah, it kind of became thisreally cool outlet for me to
(20:13):
talk about creativity and music.
And I mean, some of them werereally light and fun the whole
time.
Some of them got a little morein depth.
And I got to meet a lot of newpeople by doing it too, because
I eventually ran out of, youknow, friends.
It's like, oh, I wonder if thisperson, I like their music or
like their writing or whateverwould do it.
(20:34):
And so I got to interview a lotof cool people, which ended up
in us now knowing each other andkind of keeping in touch, which
has been cool.
SPEAKER_02 (20:44):
I was reading somewhere that you were starting
to write more songs that have amessage, which shows your depth.
I was wondering with theseInstagram live streams, can you
remember some of theconversations that had happened
heavier topics and what werethose topics about?
I
SPEAKER_01 (21:00):
have a terrible memory, but I remember, I'm just
a huge fan of this author namedJedediah Jenkins.
We ended up having a really coolconversation and I was so
excited to get to talk to him.
And I feel like a lot of what hesaid was kind of touching on a
(21:22):
lot of what we've talked abouthere so far.
no one's got it figured out.
We're all just learning as wego.
I feel like that's just apowerful thing to remember when
you're getting locked in acomparison or feeling like
(21:42):
you're not quite where you wantto be or you want to get to a
certain place and you're hittingall these roadblocks.
It can just be a lot to getcaught up in.
I felt like a lot of his writingwas sort of touching on a lot of
these themes of, yeah, like noone's got to figure it out.
We're all learning.
We're all in process.
We're all trying to figure itout, which I'm just always
(22:03):
really drawn to people that areopen like that and not super
certain with like, this is howit is and this is how things
work.
You know, sometimes we get
SPEAKER_02 (22:13):
competitive with other people.
And then sometimes we getcompetitive trying to reach the
goals that we've set for ourselfwhich may not even be realistic
without factoring in all of theobstacles along the way.
And that could be frustrating.
Sometimes when we go throughthese obstacles, it's really
(22:34):
hard to hear things like, well,what did you learn from that
until it's way past that you'relike, okay, now I can finally
talk about that.
Totally.
But I do feel like sometimesthese obstacles teach us to go
in a different direction.
that we may not have expected togo to.
Oh, for sure.
(22:54):
I
SPEAKER_01 (22:55):
mean, I think that's such a hard part of life is all
the unexpected things that youweren't planning on entering
your path, like inevitably do.
And it can really derail you oryou can learn how to roll with
(23:16):
it and go, okay, how do I takethis and Let it teach me
something.
And eventually you end up in aplace totally different that you
weren't expecting, but that ismaybe more rewarding than the
thing you had set out to do.
I'm really trying to remainopen.
I think it's so easy to have aone-track mind and be like, this
(23:41):
is what I'm after.
This is what I'm trying toaccomplish.
And I'm going to do anything Ican to get there and And yeah,
you get competitive, you getobsessed with these very
specific markers and they neverfeel as good as you think
they're going to feel.
And then you get there andyou're like, I did it.
And then you're like, what'snext?
(24:01):
For sure.
Or you don't get those markersand it's really disappointing
and it makes you really down onyourself.
UNKNOWN (24:10):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (24:11):
have to deal with those emotions coming up and
these feelings of inadequacy andself-doubt.
It's funny what you said.
It reminded me.
I always get a little frustratedwith people coming on and
talking about their successstories.
Everyone comes on and, I didn'tthink I was going to get to this
point.
And then right when I gave up, Igot it.
(24:32):
And it just sort of creates thisfeeling of, wait, okay, so...
What?
It's always easier in hindsightto share your success stories.
I think in general, thingsrarely turn out exactly how you
expect they're going to.
That can be really disappointingand really hard to deal with.
I think it's hard to talk aboutbecause it's like, well, things
(24:54):
aren't going bad.
They're just different than whatI thought.
It's hard to know how to dealwith it.
SPEAKER_02 (25:00):
Yeah.
Just having the flexibility togo with what's going on and
maybe try to turn it in yourfavor, it comes with maturity
and with experience.
Yeah.
One thing you mentioned wasappearances.
And sometimes on social media,it's like the perfect place
where people kind of put onappearances, making it look like
(25:24):
everything is perfect.
Right.
But one thing I'm wondering,especially from somebody who's
been in music and also who'sbeen an actress, Sometimes the
comments can really be hurtfuland come out of left field.
How do you manage that?
And what is your attitude towardnegative social media comments?
SPEAKER_01 (25:47):
You know, I feel pretty lucky so far.
I don't feel like that's been ahuge part of my story.
There have definitely beennegative comments and I am a
huge baby when they happen and Iget very hurt.
And I will literally treat it asif this person has known me my
(26:08):
whole life and what they'resaying holds so much weight.
And I can be like, what?
They don't even know me.
And it will just stick in yourbrain so long.
But that's something that I havenot had to deal with a lot,
thankfully, because I don't dealwith that many haters.
(26:29):
I've gotten the occasional haterand it has ruined my week.
So I'll probably really fallapart when I start getting real
haters.
No, I'm kidding.
I'm kidding.
But yeah, I hear biggercelebrities talk about haters
and negative comments and itreally is so hurtful.
(26:53):
I do think it's just sointeresting how some people can
get behind a screen and saythings so wrong.
mean and negative towardssomeone they've never met even
if they are famous it's cool forcelebrities to come out and be
like hey we are actually justhuman beings and we are very
(27:15):
fragile and sensitive just likeyou are so this is hurtful
SPEAKER_02 (27:21):
yeah I think you're right people don't think maybe
that person is going to read itAnd it's maybe their way of
venting in some way, but itcould be very harsh because it's
completely unfiltered.
And when we talk with peoplelike on a regular, normal basis,
no one will say something likewhat is said in social media.
(27:42):
So it's kind of just anunrealistic medium,
SPEAKER_01 (27:46):
I suppose.
You have to kind of do your ownassessment of what you can
handle.
Because for me...
And I'm not good at this, by theway.
I hardly put any restrictions onit because I'm addicted.
But when I wake up and I startscrolling and I see something
that set off something in methat's made me now feel bad
about myself, and then I'll takethat.
(28:08):
I'll try to brush it off, butI'll sort of be irritated.
And I'll be like, why am Iirritated?
It's always kind of tracing backto something that I saw that
then made me compare myself tothem and compare my path to
them.
And now I'm somehow thinkingthat my whole...
trajectory is doomed.
I'm like, how did this happen?
(28:30):
I'm exaggerating slightly, butit is such a hard thing to know
how to balance.
I can't imagine growing up on itfor my whole life, like kids
today, having to deal withsocial media and the effects of
it and the ramifications.
It's a lot for me to deal withas an adult.
SPEAKER_02 (28:51):
George Clooney said something once.
He said his father said, Youknow, when they say really,
really great things about you,just kind of take that with a
grain of salt.
And then on the flip side, ifpeople say like really horrible,
horrible things about you, justtake it with a grain of salt.
You know, because, yeah, maybeyou're like somewhere in the
middle.
(29:11):
Yeah, exactly.
Just try to have those comments,maybe not take them as seriously
as we could sometimes feel them.
Right.
Yeah,
SPEAKER_01 (29:21):
for sure.
SPEAKER_02 (29:23):
One thing you said was you talked about spiraling
and usually can be compared towhen you talk about anxiety.
SPEAKER_04 (29:31):
And
SPEAKER_02 (29:32):
then there's also depression.
Do you feel like you haveexperienced either or any of
those during your life orcareer?
SPEAKER_01 (29:40):
Yeah, I think so.
I think definitelyrecognizing...
that habit of spiraling andcreating scenarios, naming that
as anxiety was helpful for mebecause sometimes the perception
with mental health, withanxiety, with depression, it can
be very real for some people.
(30:00):
Like depression, I can't get outof bed.
I have no motivation.
These very obvious signs andsame with anxiety.
It's like I have panic attacks,which means I can't breathe.
So I wasn't relating anxiety toany of those.
So I was like, well, I guess Idon't deal with anxiety.
But then sort of seeing thepatterns in my life, oh, like I
(30:24):
tend to do a lot of projectingwhat is going to happen in the
future and trying to find allthe ways that it's going to go
wrong or it's going to be hardor I'm not going to get what I
want.
I was experiencing anxiety and Istill do.
Being like, oh no, that isanxiety was helpful for me
because it was, oh, okay, that'snot just a bad day.
(30:48):
That is a form of anxiety.
Spiraling and going out ofcontrol in your head into all
these scenarios and all of asudden you're convinced that all
this bad stuff is going tohappen or you've made every
wrong choice in your past and ifyou would have done it
differently, you would haveended up somewhere differently.
All those kind of mental thingsthat I deal with I definitely
(31:12):
view as anxiety and it's hard toget a handle on it.
It's interesting that you saythat about musicians dealing
with this, because this issomething I've been talking with
friends about lately is I wantto put everything I have into
the music and to the songs andto my work and create something
(31:33):
that I feel great about.
And to do that, you have to goso far and put all of your
energy and, you know, bleed forthe art.
And then you're supposed to justlet it come out and, okay, well,
hands off.
(31:53):
Like now I just detach from allof that and I just am fine with
whatever happens.
I'm easy breezy.
Like I don't even care.
That's so unrealistic.
I don't, understand.
And now you're getting an earfulof me in a therapy session.
But it's just interestingbecause so much of the music we
(32:16):
love and the art we love camefrom putting a lot of hours, a
lot of work, a lot of tears andsweat and all the stuff.
And you're kind of offering upyour heart on a platter for
everyone to have an opinionabout I mean, it's hard to talk
about this.
Even now, I'm like, oh, wow,wow, hard life.
(32:39):
I'm getting into the head of alistener being like, oh, what a
tough life.
You have to make music.
But, you know, it is tough.
SPEAKER_02 (32:54):
That is the misconception that from the
outside, people say, oh, wow,wow, look at you.
How sad.
But it's tough because, youknow, I used to...
interview also for film, actorsand actresses.
And oftentimes, it almostsounded like they had more of a
prepared speech about what themovie is about, their character.
(33:14):
But with music, it wasdifferent.
Music is every part of that isyou.
The lyrics, the melodies, thestage performance, everything.
You are laying yourself bare.
And it means everything to you.
And that's why I loveinterviewing musicians because
of that.
But on the flip side, whenthings don't work out,
(33:36):
especially if you're like aperfectionist, then it hits a
little harder, right?
It hits harder.
Yeah.
It's so personal.
Because you're like, oh,
SPEAKER_01 (33:45):
you hate me.
All of me you hate.
So thanks so much.
No, it's a hard thing to handleat every level.
Maybe you've reached the heightof success and you played this
arena and you're like, wow, Ireally did it.
I think there's still probably,and if not even more, of a
(34:09):
nagging feeling of just like,what now?
That's just kind of alwaysthere, even if you're not a
musician, even if you're aperson.
I just think that's such a humanthing.
with music and making somethingand putting it out there and
wanting it to be received in acertain way.
And then if it's not, yeah, it'shard not to take that
(34:32):
personally.
Well, I'm glad that you don'thave
SPEAKER_02 (34:35):
any haters
SPEAKER_01 (34:37):
though.
SPEAKER_02 (34:39):
So our podcast also is about solutions.
You talked about therapy, whichis really good, but what are
some things that you do on adaily basis for self-care, for
your mental health?
SPEAKER_01 (34:52):
I am a very extroverted person.
Because I was like, yeah, whatis self-care for me?
(35:13):
Do I want to go get my nailsdone?
Not really.
Do I want to get a massage?
I mean, sure, but I don't reallywant to do it.
A lot of times what I wanted wasto hang out with people and to
remember, oh yeah, my music,work, all that stress is not the
end-all be-all in my life.
And my life is about the peoplein it and being there for them
(35:33):
and just sort of having...
real people in front of me inreal life.
And reminding myself of thathelps me snap out of that spiral
sometimes of what's going tohappen?
What am I doing?
It just helps me get out of myhead and into just enjoying
life.
(35:54):
So that's a lot of what I do.
Or I'll go on a walk.
I'll get out of the house.
I mean, it's so hard not to talkabout pandemic life because
that's been our last year and ahalf, which really threw a
wrench into being able to hangout with people.
So as you can imagine, it waspretty tough.
But going on long walks, I'lllisten to a podcast or I'll
(36:16):
listen to music or I'll journal.
Anything that can get me out ofmy head is pretty helpful.
And a lot of times that meanseither processing it out loud
with someone who I trust orphysically moving my body.
I don't get a ton of relief frombeing still.
(36:37):
Not that I don't like a massageor something, a bath, but those
are some things I like to try.
But I'm also an extrovertedperson.
So if you're an introvert, it'smaybe not for you.
SPEAKER_02 (36:51):
Before the pandemic, I realized how much I got out of
the house sometimes just toescape the thoughts that we
could have when we're just byourself.
Exactly.
Then you're just, okay.
But one thing you mentioned isjournaling.
And journaling is something thathelps you focus and also kind of
(37:12):
review your day or whatever itis.
Tell me about that.
What do you do with yourjournaling?
I
SPEAKER_01 (37:19):
mean, I go through spurts of journaling.
I don't want it to make it soundlike I'm so good about it and I
do it every single day.
I don't.
But when I can set aside time todo it and actually make myself
do it, it is a nice way to justget whatever the mess is in my
head.
(37:40):
When I put it out on a page,it's like writing songs too.
It helps get it out of my head.
And then it either just livesthere or it becomes a song or it
helps me sort of get to anotherplace with whatever the worry is
I have most of the time.
So it is helpful.
I mean, it's funny.
(38:01):
I've talk to people aboutjournaling.
And this is just something thatI wonder if other people
experience.
It's like, it's not totally easyto detach from it also being a
performance.
This is actually crazy becauseyou're like, what if someone
finds this and reads this?
What are they going to say?
I can almost censor what I'mwriting in a journal sometimes
because what if I die andsomeone picks it up and reads it
(38:22):
and what are they going to thinkand are they going to judge me?
I'm literally going to be dead.
Why do I care?
I
SPEAKER_02 (38:28):
just thought that was hilarious.
I seriously think that's the bigfear, like somebody breaking
into your diary.
That's what it is.
It's a diary.
I
SPEAKER_01 (38:38):
know.
Yeah.
I can eventually get past thatfear out of necessity of needing
to do it.
But yeah, every time I'm able towrite it down in some way, even
if it's just in my notes app,it's usually helpful in trying
to process it.
SPEAKER_02 (38:57):
Yeah, I do
SPEAKER_01 (38:57):
think that's true.
SPEAKER_02 (38:59):
It's funny how when something comes out of your
head, whether it's your words orwords on a piece of paper, that
you could stop thinking aboutit.
SPEAKER_01 (39:07):
Yes.
You can kind of stop thinkingabout it.
I don't know if it makes youstop thinking about it entirely,
but at least helps you get to adifferent place with it.
So you're not obsessing over theone detail that you've been
playing on loop in your head forhowever long.
SPEAKER_02 (39:23):
You know, one thing I wanted to ask you about
perfectionism, because this is atheme that's come up with some
other musicians.
And I get like that myself.
Do you feel like you ever putthat on other
SPEAKER_01 (39:36):
people?
Gosh, I feel like most of myperfectionism is all directed at
me.
I feel like I could probably cutother people a ton of slack and
be like, oh, it's fine.
You're only human.
Don't worry about it.
And then if I do some sort ofmisstep, it's like, how could
(39:57):
you do that?
You're an idiot.
All the bad talk is directed atme and all the pressure is put
on me to be perfect.
I don't know that I put that onother people unless it's someone
really, really close to me.
I don't know.
That's something to think aboutfor sure.
I'll be directed at myself,which is not good.
SPEAKER_02 (40:20):
Well, you want to treat yourself like your best
friend.
I'm trying to, but that's reallyhard.
I know because sometimes it'sautomatic or we've been doing it
for so long.
SPEAKER_01 (40:31):
Yeah, it's kind of like that blame thing.
Well, as long as there's someoneto blame, even if it's myself,
I'll take it.
SPEAKER_02 (40:38):
Well, Caitlin, you have been very open and honest.
Is there anything else that youwould like to say about mental
health or about your music?
SPEAKER_01 (40:48):
Gosh, I feel excited about the album and just excited
that people to get a chance tohopefully know me a little bit
more deeply than they havebefore.
I'm excited to share thesesongs.
And yeah, you know, hopefully bythe end of this, I'll have some
haters.
Maybe I'll become one.
(41:09):
I get it.
I
SPEAKER_02 (41:09):
get it.
Next up, we have part two of ourinterview with Dr.
Adi Jaffe, a psychologist whostill speaks at his alma mater
of UCLA and is a nationallyrecognized expert on mental
health and addiction.
In part one of our interview,Dr.
Jaffe shared his own story andtechniques from his book, The
(41:30):
Abstinence Myth, a new approachfor overcoming addiction without
shame, judgment, or rules.
Now let's hear Dr.
Jaffe share more insight intolong-lasting recovery.
SPEAKER_00 (41:43):
All the addiction is, is a coping strategy and a
symptom of the actual underlyingissue.
So if you keep addressing thealcohol or the gambling or the
drugs or the sex, it's likeplaying whack-a-mole.
Really what you're getting at isa symptom.
And what we need to do is weneed to get honest.
Exploration is the first part ofwhat we do.
We explore why are you reallyhere?
(42:05):
So that can be earlydevelopmental issues.
It can be physical problems.
It can be trauma.
I think there are a lot ofenvironmental influences, right?
People are in troublingrelationships.
Explore why you're here.
One of our big models thatignited is F-shame.
I'll use the PG version of it.
And the reason I say that iswhen people understand and
connect back to why they'reactually here, there's a lot of
(42:26):
shame that comes up.
I was running a group yesterdayand we talked about something
called ACEs, which is AdverseChildhood Experiences.
People with more than fouradverse childhood experiences
have been shown to have a two tothree time greater likelihood of
struggling with severe mentalhealth and addiction issues
later on in life.
But it makes sense when youthink about it.
If you were sexually abused orphysically abused or lived in a
(42:49):
violent environment or werebullied heavily when you were
young, I don't doubt why youdevelop mental health and
addiction issues.
I understand them.
So we went through this in agroup and had about 25, 30
people in this group.
About half the people had 10 or11 of these experiences in their
childhood.
And you saw the impact in ourgroup of people realizing the
(43:11):
depths of the trauma that theyhad been through in life.
Now, some of these people havebeen to rehab before.
They've tried AA before.
They've been to therapy foryears.
But to have an assessment rightthere laid out in front of them,
we had these really emotionalconversations.
And the conversation went likethis.
Okay, now you know.
You know that trauma plays amajor part And you have a list
(43:32):
of those things.
If you want to fix yourdrinking, you've got to go fix
the trauma.
And it made so much more senseto a lot of these people than
what they had been trying to dofor years before, which was they
were trying to stop the drinkingand then go address the trauma.
(43:58):
I think what we're doing rightnow at Ignited is we're giving
people a voice where unlike whathappened to me in treatment and
in therapy, their livedexperience and the reasons why
they are suffering come to theforefront so they can deal with
those first and foremost.
And so what ends up happening isthe vast majority of people do
our work and they're excitedabout it.
(44:20):
They're happy about it.
Why?
Because it's giving them freedombefore asking them for anything.
SPEAKER_02 (44:25):
It sounds like the psychotherapy part of your
program really is more of thefocus, whereas kind of talking
about addiction, it's like asymptom to the core problem and
the core problem being having todeal with issues, which can be,
like you said, it could betrauma, but it can also be
something biological.
(44:46):
Let's say something physicalthat's happening.
I know like thyroid conditionscan cause mood disorders.
Different hormonal changes cancause mood disorders.
You're talking about labels thatcause shame.
And the thing is, is I thinkbecause people may not
understand about mood disordersor about addiction, that people
(45:07):
might say, okay, I'm an addict,but they might be sober for 28
years.
And maybe that label isuncomfortable to wear for 28
years.
But I do think it's great thatyou're going...
to the core of the problembecause that's really where it
all starts.
And oftentimes doctors don'teven take the time to find out
(45:29):
what that is.
They just want to give you likea quick fix to
SPEAKER_00 (45:34):
fix the other symptom.
So for instance, you weretalking about physical aspects.
Like I found out thatHashimoto's low thyroid
activity, and I was coming to myprimary physician who I'd known
for years, by the way, and wassaying, look, I don't know
what's going on, but I wake upand I'm tired all day.
Even if I get eight hours ofsleep, I'm tired all day.
I have no motivation.
It took him three years to findthis low thyroid function, which
(45:57):
is, by the way, reallyupsetting.
I was living with it before Icame to him.
So four to five years that I'mliving, essentially feeling
depressed.
SPEAKER_02 (46:07):
Yes.
And I totally agree with youbecause I...
had hormonal issues.
Not one doctor or psychiatristtalked to me about that while I
was going through menopause.
They knew what my age was, neverbrought that up.
And I said nothing specificallysad or traumatic has gone on in
my life currently.
(46:28):
or even so much in the past.
I mean, so I was confused.
I had to play detective to dothat.
And that's it.
It's like, if you have thisthyroid condition that's causing
you depression, all thecounseling in the world is not
going to make a differenceunless you find out what that
biological reason is.
SPEAKER_00 (46:47):
We talk about nutrition.
We talk about exercise andmovement.
We talk about thyroid and otherhormonal functions.
I think part of the big thingswe do for people is we help them
stop having to play detective.
And we say, look, here are allthe things that we've seen
create an effect.
So if you struggle with sleep,here are some of the things that
(47:08):
may be causing an impact here.
Do any of these fit?
If they fit, go do that work.
But some of it is nutrition.
One of the craziest things, andto this day, it makes me laugh.
You'll go to an AA meeting andeverybody's smoking and
everybody's drinking oreverybody's vaping.
No problem with that,apparently.
It's going to disturb people'ssleep.
It's going to cause themanxiety.
It's going to cause adrenalfatigue and make their body feel
(47:31):
tired all the time.
But that's fine.
Just go to another meeting.
And so I tell people all thetime, I say, look, if you
consume a lot of sugar, that'sgoing to cause mood
dysregulation for you.
So if you're feeling down andsad and distressed and upset,
play around with sugar intake.
(47:51):
Just because you just stoppedalcohol or you dropped alcohol
doesn't mean you have to takesomething else to to fix those
aspects of your mood, right?
And so what you're saying is soright on in terms of the way
that we talk to people becausewe do the same with spirituality
and environment.
You know how many people I talkto who come to me for alcohol
issues?
(48:12):
And when we get into it, I findout they've been in an unhappy
marriage for 18 years.
And they're like, look, I'm analcoholic.
I don't know why I drink.
And I know why you drink.
You drink because you've beenunhappy in your marriage for 18
years.
I'm not going to be able to fixyour drinking unless we fix your
marriage or you leave thisrelationship.
But people don't think aboutthis.
(48:33):
So that's not trauma, right?
Being in an unhappy marriage isnot traumatic per se, but it
causes stress and it causesanxiety.
It causes dissociation.
It causes massive environmentalstress.
So all these things, sometimesit's the first time because
oftentimes it's the partnerwho's telling this person to
stop drinking.
(48:54):
And so- All of these aspects arethe things we present to our
people.
So what's beautiful about ourgroups is you'll have people who
fix their issue throughmedication and other people who
fix it because they got out of abad relationship and other
people who change jobs and otherpeople who are dealing with
their trauma.
They all did their own work, butwhat brings them together is
that they're focused on thesolution instead of what happens
(49:16):
in traditional recoveryoftentimes, which is constantly
focusing on the problem, right?
Hey, my name is this.
I'm an addict.
And let me tell you about how Igot here and how bad it was.
And for me, it's like, okay, Idon't need to dwell on the past.
Let's understand that we have aproblem and work forward and
make ourselves better.
SPEAKER_02 (49:33):
Yeah, and also finding out what the problem is
is a huge thing.
And there's a lot of trial anderror and then also a lot of
introspection that sometimesit's hard for people to kind of
look at themselves or even talkabout what happened in the past
that they're still carrying.
But I do think that's a reallyimportant service because that
whole journey, that whole trialand error period to find out
(49:56):
what works for your body, whatworks for your lifestyle, what
works for your personality, Ittakes a lot of time and that's
the time that some people canlose their lives.
SPEAKER_00 (50:07):
100%.
And that's why I'm againstmaking people feel like if they
had a drink, they failed.
Whereas if they were sober, theysucceeded.
Because we know the vastmajority of people will slip up.
And while people who've beensober for a very long time tell
me, hey, you know, we don'tshame people who get into
relapse.
That's not what happens when youtalk to the people who are
(50:29):
actually relapsing.
They feel very much like they'rebeing shamed.
You know, go back to thebeginning of the line, reset
your counter to zero.
And so what I always say is,look, if we're here to help,
then let's put the help first.
Let's not create requirementsfor help.
Let's not tell somebody, look, Iwill only help you if.
(50:50):
My argument at Ignite is verysimple.
And by the way, we're not freelike AA, but some of our
solutions are like$1.90 a day.
We try to make it as cheap ashumanly possible for us to be
able to offer this help becauseI totally agree.
We have to make it easy forpeople and then let them roll
in.
And if they slip up, say, hey,what happened?
Tell us.
Let's just talk about it.
(51:10):
Explore.
Let's talk about what happened,what went wrong so we can get
better and do better next time.
SPEAKER_02 (51:16):
Yeah, it's sort of the principle of when we learn
how to do anything new, we makemistakes.
And as we make mistakes, we...
hopefully learn from them andtry to do something different to
finally get to the point whereyou get to be healthy.
Now you have the ignitedprogram, but you call it the
(51:37):
ignited hero program, which Ilike because it focuses on the
positive things that you'redoing and also understanding
that there could be slip ups.
SPEAKER_00 (51:48):
I'll tell you the reason I called it the hero
program.
When I listened to the storiesof some of the people who made
it, to our program, what I tryto point out to them is you
already won.
The fact that you're even hereright now and you're working on
yourself is already a hugetestament to how big of a person
you are.
The hero part is partiallyrecognizing the internal persona
(52:13):
that is within them and thatthey're just trying to uncover.
Because while everybody else hastalked down to them their entire
life, what I've noticed is a lotof these people are incredibly
resilient and full of grit.
They were born intocircumstances or they had
experiences or they madeerroneous choices in the middle
of their life that led them downthe wrong path.
(52:33):
But they're incredibly stronghuman beings that have a lot to
offer the world.
SPEAKER_02 (52:38):
Well, I'm glad you do that because I also have
something.
I'm going to show you my T-shirthere.
It's called Superhero.
We call the people that come onto the show Check Your Head
Superheroes because the thing issomething like mood disorders,
which is often...
tied to addiction, these aresilent struggles.
(52:59):
It's a battle.
It's a war that is won bysomebody who's still standing
there and looking for theiranswers.
But that war is the battle ofour lives.
And to win that, to even bealive, is the greatest battle of
your life.
SPEAKER_00 (53:20):
Well, the thing that sucks so much about stigma and
shame, which is why I fightagainst it so badly, is all
those things you mentioned, youunderstand the external
circumstances that are leadingto the problem.
Like if you have a bad marriage,there's something about the
partner, there's something aboutthe interaction.
You can see it happening.
But when it's in between yourears, you start believing
(53:42):
there's something deeply wrongwith you.
You start thinking of yourselfas a broken human being.
And I'm sorry if anybody'slistening right now and has this
sentiment for themselves, you'renot a broken human being.
You're imperfect, but newsflash,everybody's imperfect.
So, this is one of the things Ilove about musicians, but if you
(54:04):
really listen to what a lot ofthe people you're paying
attention to are speaking andwriting, it's about pain.
They're expressing things thatmost of us are uncomfortable
saying out loud, which is whymusic touches people so deeply
is There is this emotionalconnection.
But now let's extend that alittle bit and say, well, why
(54:25):
can't we all become moreexpressive about the struggles
that we go through?
Why can't we all become braveand say, you know what?
I'm not going to hide.
I know that other people aroundme are struggling right now.
And by me pretending to beperfect, by me pretending to
have it all together, I'mactually exacerbating the
problem.
Thankfully, we now live in anage where a lot of people who
(54:47):
have celebrity, who have status,who have a voice, a loud and
large voice, have expressedsomething about their own
struggles or about the strugglesof those around them because
that gets served as a beacon, aconnecting sort of anchor.
SPEAKER_02 (55:03):
Right.
I mean, that really is whatwe're trying to do with the
podcast, as well as providing alot of different solutions like
your program, because there's avariety of different mood
disorders.
There's a variety of differentaddictions and there's a variety
of different therapies andthings you can try.
But just to keep persistent, tofind the one that finally works
(55:25):
and to feel good about that, toreally congratulate yourself and
say, you know, I'm like asurvivor and a thriver.
SPEAKER_00 (55:32):
So that is what we love about the work that we do
is we get to see these peoplewho came in broken and hopeless
and they leave or stay with us.
A lot of them stay and serve ascoaches or guides within our
community to new people to say,look, you can have anything you
want.
It's going to take some work.
It's going to requireexploration.
It's going to be a littleuncomfortable sometimes, but
(55:53):
you're going to come out on theother side so much happier and
so much more complete than youare right now.
SPEAKER_02 (55:58):
Well, what is the joy that you feel right now, now
that you look back from whereyou were and who you are today?
Because I really think thatthat's important for people to
realize that once you get to theother side, that there is a joy
and a contentment that is sodifferent from when you were
using.
SPEAKER_00 (56:17):
So I have a practice of gratitude every morning.
And the number of things thatI'm grateful for and that bring
me joy are would be hard tocount now.
I write three to four to five ofthem down a day.
But I have three amazingchildren.
I get to cuddle and read to mythree-year-old and listen to her
asking for me when she wants meinstead of her mom.
(56:40):
I get to go snowboarding duringthe winter with my boys, who
they love it.
I coach my son's soccer team.
I get to have conversations likethis and help hundreds and
thousands of people every yeararound addiction and some of the
same struggles I had.
I get to travel.
I get to read amazing books.
I get to eat amazing food.
(57:00):
That's great to hear.
SPEAKER_02 (57:29):
Well, Dr.
Jaffe, is there anything elsethat you'd like to say about
addiction or mental health orabout the Ignited program?
SPEAKER_00 (57:38):
I'll just say, look, if you're struggling right now,
let me just be very clear.
There's a solution out therethat'll work for you.
You may need to look a littleharder and you may need to dig a
little bit deeper than whateverybody else is talking about
to find the solution that isright for you.
If what I'm talking about soundsanywhere near familiar or
something that you'd want to tryout, we have the Ignited podcast
and that's spelled IGNTD.
(58:00):
And if you go to ignited.com,IGNTD.com, not only do we give
two weeks free of our help andso much in the podcast and so
much support in that way, wealso have a free seven-day sober
experiment that people can takeon to uncover some of these
underlying reasons.
So that is videos where I walkyou through every single day of
(58:20):
how to get under the hood andunderstand what it is that I'm
talking about.
So that's completely free.
And in general, just reach out,right?
This is my purpose in life.
This is what I do now.
And so if there's anything thatI can do to help, just know you
never lose hope.
There's always hope that youwill find the set of tools that
will help you.
SPEAKER_02 (58:38):
A big thank you to our musical guest, Caitlin
Tarver, and our mental healthand addiction expert, Dr.
Adi Jaffe.
For more information on CaitlinTarver and to purchase her new
album, Subject to Change, visitCaitlinTarver.com and be sure to
catch Caitlin on tour withJohnny Swim starting December
7th, 2021.
(58:59):
Follow Caitlin on our socials atCaitlinTarver and at
CaitlinTarverOnline and staytuned to listen to a clip of
Caitlin's single Shit Happens atthe end of our episode.
For more information on Dr.
Adi Jaffe, visit ignited.com,that's I-G-N-T-D dot com, and
follow Dr.
(59:19):
Jaffe on his socials, at Dr.
Adi Jaffe.
If you'd like to partner, raisefunds, or give feedback on the
podcast, email us atcheckyourheadpodcast at
gmail.com or visit us atcheckyourheadpodcast.com to find
free and affordable mental help.
So until next time, Be brave,ask for help, and be persistent
(59:40):
in finding the mental help thatyou need.
SPEAKER_03 (59:42):
There's not always someone or something to blame.
(01:00:07):
Sometimes shit just happensworse than you can imagine.
SPEAKER_02 (01:00:14):
Check Your Head Podcast is kindly supported and
partnered with Sweet ReliefMusicians Fund, DBSA San Gabriel
Valley, Earshot Media, and LemonTree Studios in Los Angeles.
Visit checkyourheadpodcast.comwhere we have over 100 solutions
for mental health.
Be our friends on social mediaat Check Your Head Podcast.
(01:00:34):
Watch us on YouTube and supportus with a kind donation on
checkyourheadpodcast.com.
Check Your Head Podcast issponsored by a 501c3 nonprofit
with all donations being taxdeductible.
Thank you for your support andthank you for listening.
Welcome to the Check Your Head Podcast, the podcast
where notable musicians andexperts share their stories and
solutions for mental health andwellness.
I'm your host, Mari Fong, amusic journalist and life coach
for musicians, and November isthe month of Thanksgiving when
we show our thanks and gratitudeto those around us with our
(00:23):
words and our actions.
With Thanksgiving, we think offamily, Thank you so much for
joining me today.
(00:57):
I'm truly grateful for thisexperience and I'm proud to say
that we're now in the top 3% ofpodcasts worldwide and that is
all thanks to you.
Thank you for your reviews, yourfollows and likes on our
socials, YouTube views, andespecially for being part of the
positive difference of bettermental health for us all.
You are my check your headsuperheroes.
(01:20):
Now to our featured guests.
You may have first seen thissinger-songwriter and actress on
the Nickelodeon series Big TimeRush or on the HBO series
Ballers, but her first taste ofmusical fame was co-writing
Cheryl Cole's number one UKsingle Crazy Stupid Love and
then released six EPs of her ownmusic before winning NBC's
(01:42):
Songland in 2019.
Today's musical guest is indiepop artist Caitlin Tarver.
whose album Subject to Changedropped on November 12, 2021,
and we'll play a clip of hersingle Shit Happens at the end
of our episode.
Caitlin shares her real-worldsolutions for dealing with the
anxiety and self-doubt thatcomes with her career, and how
(02:05):
she spills her moods into songslike You Don't Know, a song that
captured how it feels whenyou're not okay, and the many
songs on her new album filledwith emotional honesty and
vulnerability.
Next, we have part two of ourinterview with expert Dr.
Adi Jaffe, a PhD psychologistand author of the book, The
Abstinence Myth.
(02:27):
Dr.
Jaffe shares the importance ofplaying detective when finding
the root causes of addiction andalso how therapy can be
essential to long-term recoveryand sobriety.
But first, let's hear CaitlinTarver share her story.
Caitlin, congratulations.
on your upcoming album that'scalled Subject to Change.
(02:48):
You know, some people know youas an actress, but you are also
a longtime singer-songwriter.
And one thing I read that Ireally loved was that you wanted
to write songs currently thatmake people feel less crazy for
feeling how they feel.
And haven't we all gone throughtimes like that?
(03:08):
Haven't we?
You know, And I do believe thatalbums kind of represent a
chapter in our lives.
How do the songs on Subject toChange sort of represent this
chapter of your life?
SPEAKER_01 (03:22):
You know, I think even with what I was saying of
making people feel less crazy,I've just, in the past few
years, really been drawn to artthat is more vulnerable, more
saying things that are like,maybe small things that have
been in my head and things thatI don't really feel comfortable
saying out loud or wonder if I'mallowed to say out loud.
(03:45):
And when you hear it, it justgives you such a sense of
comfort because you're like,okay, I'm not alone.
I'm not crazy.
I'm not the only one who feelsthis way.
And that's kind of an elementaryconcept, but I just...
got more and more drawn to thisidea of trying to dig deeper
within myself and find thosethings that I was thinking and
(04:05):
figure out how to say them outloud through my songs.
And I looked up to other artiststhat were doing that.
And so with this album inparticular, I started therapy
last summer.
So it helped just unlock a lotof, I don't know, just the
courage to just put stuff outthere and into the songs that I
(04:25):
normally would have shied awayfrom.
And you know, I still feel likein a lot of ways, I'm just
starting to scratch the surfaceof this.
But I do feel like these songscapture a side of me that feels
a little more raw, if you will.
So yeah, it's everything youcould imagine I'm feeling, I am
(04:46):
feeling, which is excitement,nerves across the board.
But yeah, it's happening, youknow, no going back now.
SPEAKER_02 (04:55):
That's true.
And you know, It takes a lot ofbravery to peel back the layers.
And so I congratulate you onthat.
You also mentioned startingtherapy last summer.
So big props to you on thatalso.
What is it that's prompted youto start therapy?
SPEAKER_01 (05:11):
I mean, I've been in this industry essentially since
I was 13 years old.
And now I'm 31.
So basically half my life.
And it was just a lot of What Iwas experiencing with trying to
pursue this career and whilealso growing up and graduating
(05:35):
high school and then moving toLA and then I got married young
and being a few years into amarriage and sort of hitting
that late 20s slump of justlike, okay, I'm old enough to
have made certain decisions thatI am now can either look back
(05:57):
and be happy I did or look backand be like, oh, I wish I would
have done that a little bitdifferently.
And just kind of trying to makesense of the choices I have made
and how they affect my life andwhat I want to keep and what I
want to shift.
Just all that stuff that was alot of reevaluation of my life
of like, why am I doing this?
Do I want to still keep pursuingmusic?
(06:19):
Do I want to still keep pursuingacting?
In what way?
What do I even like about this?
Why am I doing it?
Am I just doing it for fame?
It was just all those questionsstarted coming up.
It's a lot of work to kind oftake stock of your life and be
like, okay, I feel a little outof sort.
What am I going to do about it?
(06:40):
And for me, I put off therapyfor years because I was like,
well, I'm fine.
I'm just having a moody week.
UNKNOWN (06:49):
But
SPEAKER_01 (06:49):
Because I didn't get this part I auditioned for and
whatever, I'll get over it.
And then I think you realizeyears pass and you're still
feeling in this funk and you'relike, well, I got to face it at
some point or another.
And then obviously throw apandemic on top of it.
And that was enough to make memake the call.
SPEAKER_02 (07:12):
Good for you.
I mean, it almost sounds likeyou've got to a point where you
really want to plan out.
Right.
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (07:45):
They are, but for me, I think I kind of
unconsciously was a person thatwas like, I want to make all the
right moves.
I want to plan my life out so Idon't experience any turbulence.
I am going to move to LA.
I'm going to do this career.
I'm going to get married.
I'm going to check all theseboxes so that I don't have any
(08:05):
surprises that will throw me offcourse.
Obviously, that's just notrealistic.
For me, unconsciously, justcraving certainty craving
control craving a path that feltsecure and all the while being
in a career that is none ofthose things and also realizing
(08:29):
that life is none of thosethings I think a big thing for
me in the past few years andeven in going through therapy is
like how much I want tocertainty about things and I
want solid ground and I don'tlike unknown and I don't like
change.
I don't like when things throwme off and life just kept doing
that.
That's a lot of what I learned.
(08:50):
And honestly, what the album istouching on and even why I
called it subject to change isjust sort of wanting to learn
how to be open to life'suncertainty and realizing that
it's okay to not know everythingor not be sure or not have a
mapped out path.
(09:11):
It's okay to make mistakes.
It's okay to not be aperfectionist.
All that kind of stuff, I'mtrying to rework in my brain and
a lot of what I was workingthrough while making this album.
SPEAKER_02 (09:25):
It comes with experience and with maturity to
realize that we only have somuch control over what happens
with our life.
You know, we try to steerthings, but wrenches get thrown
in.
And my God, the pandemic is anexcellent example of that.
SPEAKER_01 (09:44):
Right.
It's like this perfect metaphor.
No one could have seen thatcoming.
It's derailed everything.
And now you have to figure outhow to pick up the pieces.
It's like, okay, got it.
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (09:58):
And you know, you had a song.
It was called You Don't Know.
And that's the one that got 56million views.
And it was voted by ParadeMagazine as one of the
depression songs that will helpyou feel less alone.
And from that, can you remembersome of the comments or messages
(10:18):
that you received from your fansabout
SPEAKER_01 (10:21):
the song?
My God, there's been so many atthis point, which is just so
crazy.
Yeah.
It can be easy for me and allartists to kind of forget like
what we're all ultimately afteris to try and connect with
people and try to offer somesort of connection through our
(10:44):
art and what we write or say.
And it can get clouded by tryingto measure your success against
other people or like how manystreams or numbers or
popularity, you know.
I can get so overtaken withwanting all of these markers of
success and forgetting thatreally the marker of success
should be getting these messagesfrom fans that are like, this
(11:08):
song helped me make sense of myanxiety or my depression or
helped me feel less alone.
I mean, I've gotten hundreds andhundreds, even the comments on
the video still to this day,they're still piling up of
people saying, just saying howmuch it's helped them it helps
(11:28):
me to continue to press intothat feeling of trying to
communicate what that song isabout which is essentially it's
okay to feel sadness to feelheaviness to feel you know kind
of these quote unquote negativeemotions like We all feel those
things and it's okay to not justlike gloss over them and put a
(11:51):
bandaid and present this versionof yourself that's happy,
perfect person.
That's what that song tappedinto was just, you know, there's
almost like a frustration in thelyrics of, hey, like, just let
me feel this for a second.
I'm not saying I want to livehere forever or that I should
live here forever, but I don'tknow.
That's kind of the sense that Iget when people talk to me about
(12:14):
it.
It's like it helps them feelsomething in a way that maybe
helped it feel a little lessheavy.
So it's really meaningful.
SPEAKER_02 (12:24):
A lot of that song is about acceptance, acceptance
of the full range of emotionsthat we all have.
Because I do find that sometimesthere are certain people that
will only accept us when we havethe acceptable emotions,
according to them.
And when you you approach themand you're honest, they will be
(12:46):
like, well, snap out of this.
Or how could you feel that waywhen your life is going so good?
And all of these comments thatcan be really hurtful when
you're in a bad place.
And we all have certain people,special people in our lives
where we have that bond where wecan be our true selves.
(13:06):
Who is that for you?
And how did that trust
SPEAKER_01 (13:10):
bond develop?
Gosh, I mean, I've always had areally supportive family.
I got married young.
So I've been with my husband.
We've been married seven years.
We've been together for 11.
So, I mean, I started dating himwhen I was 20.
So we definitely have a prettydeep bond of acceptance.
(13:31):
And he's very encouraging of medoing exactly what I want to do
and saying exactly what I wantto say and putting my work out
there, which I think has...
really helped me have theconfidence to keep doing it.
And I feel very lucky.
I feel like I am surrounded by alot of people who allow me to be
(13:53):
myself and have these emotions.
You're right.
It does make a huge differencewhen you have that in your life
as opposed to not.
You just feel a lot safer tohave these messy emotions and be
able to kind of put it out thereand not be judged for it or feel
like you're too much.
(14:13):
I mean, a lot of reason of why Istarted therapy too, is like,
you can have someone that youpay to say these things too.
Cause yeah, eventually yourfamily's like, all right, yeah,
we get it enough.
It's hard.
But I think ultimately I do feellike I have their support, which
I'm really grateful for.
You
SPEAKER_02 (14:32):
know, you have that song called you can fall apart
too.
Yeah.
And that's kind of what itreminds me of is this, the
ability to, To be able to fallapart to somebody and that they
are going to be there for you.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (14:48):
You know, that was honestly kind of about my
marriage and my relationship.
I felt like I was becoming theone that was always complaining
or having these big feelings andputting them on to him and
expecting him to be able tocarry it.
And then realized having thismoment of like, Oh, I want to be
(15:11):
that for you too.
I want to be able to make sureI'm a place that you can feel
safe to come to as well.
And I had to kind of think aboutthat and reassess how I was
unloading a lot of my emotionsall the time.
And maybe it wasn't even, but wealso just have different
personalities.
And I think that was kind of thesentiment.
(15:31):
It's like a song about wantingto be a safe space for someone
or a safe place for someone toland.
Yeah, that's a special one tome.
SPEAKER_02 (15:42):
Well, you know, the one song I've been able to hear
from your new album, it's calledShit Happens.
Yes.
And that happens to all of us inour lives, sometimes on a daily
basis.
Yep.
There's a habit that happens isthat we look for blame.
What do you think the danger isin doing that?
Looking for blame when things
SPEAKER_01 (16:04):
go wrong.
Oh, man.
It can just be a habit.
It can be kind of like anunconscious thing.
It's like an attempt forcontrol.
It's an attempt for, okay, if Ican figure out who to blame
here, then I can put the blameon them.
Therefore, this shitty thingthat happened makes sense.
(16:25):
So I don't feel like everythingis chaos or random.
It's one thing when it's like, Ispilled coffee on my shirt
earlier.
It's like, oh, okay.
shoot you know there's likethese light-hearted every day
kind of shit happens moments andthen there's tragic awful
(16:46):
horrific experiences that humansface that that's what can be
really challenging like well whoare you gonna blame for this
because most things like thatdon't have anyone to blame and
that's kind of the heart of thesong is just talking about that
balance of Okay, is it reallygoing to make it better if you
(17:06):
find someone to blame?
Usually not.
For me, it doesn't.
I mean, oh, okay, I guess I knownow who to blame.
Is that really that helpful?
With the bigger kind of tragicevents in life, most of the
time, those have no explanation.
And anyone who tries to make itseem like it does, it's just
(17:28):
uncomfortable with the fact thatthat can happen, which I totally
connect to.
It's scary to think of thingsthat could happen or things that
will never make sense.
I feel like I've been chippingaway at this message since I
wrote You Don't Know, which Iwrote a long time ago.
It's sort of like this, hey,let's all just not try to gloss
(17:50):
over the hard parts of lifebecause ultimately they can be
healing if you face them.
I
SPEAKER_02 (17:59):
think there's also a bond that happens when we share.
something really tough about ourlives with somebody.
And I feel sometimes that it'skind of a special moment when
someone trusts me to tell meabout that.
And when you're going throughsomething with somebody as
trying your best to help eachother, it's something that you
(18:22):
don't forget because you knowthat person has been with you
during the good times, which iseasy, and during the bad times,
which can be can be tough, butthat person was there.
Yeah.
They didn't go away.
Yeah.
And it's so easy to step away.
Oh
SPEAKER_01 (18:42):
yeah, for sure.
It is hard to make it throughthe times that are challenging
because, you know, when you gothrough a hard time, it's not
like you can guarantee you'llhave a week where you feel down
and then you'll snap back intoyour old self.
I mean, some things linger foryears and I think that's, really
(19:02):
uncomfortable.
It's really challenging to dealwith in yourself and with people
close to you.
But it is bonding and it almostfeels like the point of life to
like be there for each other.
So, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (19:16):
You started to do these Instagram live streams
during the pandemic.
Yeah.
And they've gotten reallypopular.
Yeah.
What was your initial purposefor coming up with this whole
idea?
SPEAKER_01 (19:29):
Everyone was going...
live at the time, you know, thepandemic hit, like tours were
getting canceled.
Everything was going insane.
And everyone was like, let's golive and try to talk to each
other.
Oh, that could be fun.
I was putting some music out.
I was about to go on tour andthen that got canceled.
So it was also just something todo because everything came to a
(19:52):
screeching halt.
And then I kind of just keptdoing it because I was like,
well, this is kind of fun forme.
I like getting to talk to peopleand having a good time doing
this.
People seem to still want totalk to me and people are
watching it.
So I'm just going to keep doingit.
But yeah, it kind of became thisreally cool outlet for me to
(20:13):
talk about creativity and music.
And I mean, some of them werereally light and fun the whole
time.
Some of them got a little morein depth.
And I got to meet a lot of newpeople by doing it too, because
I eventually ran out of, youknow, friends.
It's like, oh, I wonder if thisperson, I like their music or
like their writing or whateverwould do it.
(20:34):
And so I got to interview a lotof cool people, which ended up
in us now knowing each other andkind of keeping in touch, which
has been cool.
SPEAKER_02 (20:44):
I was reading somewhere that you were starting
to write more songs that have amessage, which shows your depth.
I was wondering with theseInstagram live streams, can you
remember some of theconversations that had happened
heavier topics and what werethose topics about?
I
SPEAKER_01 (21:00):
have a terrible memory, but I remember, I'm just
a huge fan of this author namedJedediah Jenkins.
We ended up having a really coolconversation and I was so
excited to get to talk to him.
And I feel like a lot of what hesaid was kind of touching on a
(21:22):
lot of what we've talked abouthere so far.
no one's got it figured out.
We're all just learning as wego.
I feel like that's just apowerful thing to remember when
you're getting locked in acomparison or feeling like
(21:42):
you're not quite where you wantto be or you want to get to a
certain place and you're hittingall these roadblocks.
It can just be a lot to getcaught up in.
I felt like a lot of his writingwas sort of touching on a lot of
these themes of, yeah, like noone's got to figure it out.
We're all learning.
We're all in process.
We're all trying to figure itout, which I'm just always
(22:03):
really drawn to people that areopen like that and not super
certain with like, this is howit is and this is how things
work.
You know, sometimes we get
SPEAKER_02 (22:13):
competitive with other people.
And then sometimes we getcompetitive trying to reach the
goals that we've set for ourselfwhich may not even be realistic
without factoring in all of theobstacles along the way.
And that could be frustrating.
Sometimes when we go throughthese obstacles, it's really
(22:34):
hard to hear things like, well,what did you learn from that
until it's way past that you'relike, okay, now I can finally
talk about that.
Totally.
But I do feel like sometimesthese obstacles teach us to go
in a different direction.
that we may not have expected togo to.
Oh, for sure.
(22:54):
I
SPEAKER_01 (22:55):
mean, I think that's such a hard part of life is all
the unexpected things that youweren't planning on entering
your path, like inevitably do.
And it can really derail you oryou can learn how to roll with
(23:16):
it and go, okay, how do I takethis and Let it teach me
something.
And eventually you end up in aplace totally different that you
weren't expecting, but that ismaybe more rewarding than the
thing you had set out to do.
I'm really trying to remainopen.
I think it's so easy to have aone-track mind and be like, this
(23:41):
is what I'm after.
This is what I'm trying toaccomplish.
And I'm going to do anything Ican to get there and And yeah,
you get competitive, you getobsessed with these very
specific markers and they neverfeel as good as you think
they're going to feel.
And then you get there andyou're like, I did it.
And then you're like, what'snext?
(24:01):
For sure.
Or you don't get those markersand it's really disappointing
and it makes you really down onyourself.
UNKNOWN (24:10):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (24:11):
have to deal with those emotions coming up and
these feelings of inadequacy andself-doubt.
It's funny what you said.
It reminded me.
I always get a little frustratedwith people coming on and
talking about their successstories.
Everyone comes on and, I didn'tthink I was going to get to this
point.
And then right when I gave up, Igot it.
(24:32):
And it just sort of creates thisfeeling of, wait, okay, so...
What?
It's always easier in hindsightto share your success stories.
I think in general, thingsrarely turn out exactly how you
expect they're going to.
That can be really disappointingand really hard to deal with.
I think it's hard to talk aboutbecause it's like, well, things
(24:54):
aren't going bad.
They're just different than whatI thought.
It's hard to know how to dealwith it.
SPEAKER_02 (25:00):
Yeah.
Just having the flexibility togo with what's going on and
maybe try to turn it in yourfavor, it comes with maturity
and with experience.
Yeah.
One thing you mentioned wasappearances.
And sometimes on social media,it's like the perfect place
where people kind of put onappearances, making it look like
(25:24):
everything is perfect.
Right.
But one thing I'm wondering,especially from somebody who's
been in music and also who'sbeen an actress, Sometimes the
comments can really be hurtfuland come out of left field.
How do you manage that?
And what is your attitude towardnegative social media comments?
SPEAKER_01 (25:47):
You know, I feel pretty lucky so far.
I don't feel like that's been ahuge part of my story.
There have definitely beennegative comments and I am a
huge baby when they happen and Iget very hurt.
And I will literally treat it asif this person has known me my
(26:08):
whole life and what they'resaying holds so much weight.
And I can be like, what?
They don't even know me.
And it will just stick in yourbrain so long.
But that's something that I havenot had to deal with a lot,
thankfully, because I don't dealwith that many haters.
(26:29):
I've gotten the occasional haterand it has ruined my week.
So I'll probably really fallapart when I start getting real
haters.
No, I'm kidding.
I'm kidding.
But yeah, I hear biggercelebrities talk about haters
and negative comments and itreally is so hurtful.
(26:53):
I do think it's just sointeresting how some people can
get behind a screen and saythings so wrong.
mean and negative towardssomeone they've never met even
if they are famous it's cool forcelebrities to come out and be
like hey we are actually justhuman beings and we are very
(27:15):
fragile and sensitive just likeyou are so this is hurtful
SPEAKER_02 (27:21):
yeah I think you're right people don't think maybe
that person is going to read itAnd it's maybe their way of
venting in some way, but itcould be very harsh because it's
completely unfiltered.
And when we talk with peoplelike on a regular, normal basis,
no one will say something likewhat is said in social media.
(27:42):
So it's kind of just anunrealistic medium,
SPEAKER_01 (27:46):
I suppose.
You have to kind of do your ownassessment of what you can
handle.
Because for me...
And I'm not good at this, by theway.
I hardly put any restrictions onit because I'm addicted.
But when I wake up and I startscrolling and I see something
that set off something in methat's made me now feel bad
about myself, and then I'll takethat.
(28:08):
I'll try to brush it off, butI'll sort of be irritated.
And I'll be like, why am Iirritated?
It's always kind of tracing backto something that I saw that
then made me compare myself tothem and compare my path to
them.
And now I'm somehow thinkingthat my whole...
trajectory is doomed.
I'm like, how did this happen?
(28:30):
I'm exaggerating slightly, butit is such a hard thing to know
how to balance.
I can't imagine growing up on itfor my whole life, like kids
today, having to deal withsocial media and the effects of
it and the ramifications.
It's a lot for me to deal withas an adult.
SPEAKER_02 (28:51):
George Clooney said something once.
He said his father said, Youknow, when they say really,
really great things about you,just kind of take that with a
grain of salt.
And then on the flip side, ifpeople say like really horrible,
horrible things about you, justtake it with a grain of salt.
You know, because, yeah, maybeyou're like somewhere in the
middle.
(29:11):
Yeah, exactly.
Just try to have those comments,maybe not take them as seriously
as we could sometimes feel them.
Right.
Yeah,
SPEAKER_01 (29:21):
for sure.
SPEAKER_02 (29:23):
One thing you said was you talked about spiraling
and usually can be compared towhen you talk about anxiety.
SPEAKER_04 (29:31):
And
SPEAKER_02 (29:32):
then there's also depression.
Do you feel like you haveexperienced either or any of
those during your life orcareer?
SPEAKER_01 (29:40):
Yeah, I think so.
I think definitelyrecognizing...
that habit of spiraling andcreating scenarios, naming that
as anxiety was helpful for mebecause sometimes the perception
with mental health, withanxiety, with depression, it can
be very real for some people.
(30:00):
Like depression, I can't get outof bed.
I have no motivation.
These very obvious signs andsame with anxiety.
It's like I have panic attacks,which means I can't breathe.
So I wasn't relating anxiety toany of those.
So I was like, well, I guess Idon't deal with anxiety.
But then sort of seeing thepatterns in my life, oh, like I
(30:24):
tend to do a lot of projectingwhat is going to happen in the
future and trying to find allthe ways that it's going to go
wrong or it's going to be hardor I'm not going to get what I
want.
I was experiencing anxiety and Istill do.
Being like, oh no, that isanxiety was helpful for me
because it was, oh, okay, that'snot just a bad day.
(30:48):
That is a form of anxiety.
Spiraling and going out ofcontrol in your head into all
these scenarios and all of asudden you're convinced that all
this bad stuff is going tohappen or you've made every
wrong choice in your past and ifyou would have done it
differently, you would haveended up somewhere differently.
All those kind of mental thingsthat I deal with I definitely
(31:12):
view as anxiety and it's hard toget a handle on it.
It's interesting that you saythat about musicians dealing
with this, because this issomething I've been talking with
friends about lately is I wantto put everything I have into
the music and to the songs andto my work and create something
(31:33):
that I feel great about.
And to do that, you have to goso far and put all of your
energy and, you know, bleed forthe art.
And then you're supposed to justlet it come out and, okay, well,
hands off.
(31:53):
Like now I just detach from allof that and I just am fine with
whatever happens.
I'm easy breezy.
Like I don't even care.
That's so unrealistic.
I don't, understand.
And now you're getting an earfulof me in a therapy session.
But it's just interestingbecause so much of the music we
(32:16):
love and the art we love camefrom putting a lot of hours, a
lot of work, a lot of tears andsweat and all the stuff.
And you're kind of offering upyour heart on a platter for
everyone to have an opinionabout I mean, it's hard to talk
about this.
Even now, I'm like, oh, wow,wow, hard life.
(32:39):
I'm getting into the head of alistener being like, oh, what a
tough life.
You have to make music.
But, you know, it is tough.
SPEAKER_02 (32:54):
That is the misconception that from the
outside, people say, oh, wow,wow, look at you.
How sad.
But it's tough because, youknow, I used to...
interview also for film, actorsand actresses.
And oftentimes, it almostsounded like they had more of a
prepared speech about what themovie is about, their character.
(33:14):
But with music, it wasdifferent.
Music is every part of that isyou.
The lyrics, the melodies, thestage performance, everything.
You are laying yourself bare.
And it means everything to you.
And that's why I loveinterviewing musicians because
of that.
But on the flip side, whenthings don't work out,
(33:36):
especially if you're like aperfectionist, then it hits a
little harder, right?
It hits harder.
Yeah.
It's so personal.
Because you're like, oh,
SPEAKER_01 (33:45):
you hate me.
All of me you hate.
So thanks so much.
No, it's a hard thing to handleat every level.
Maybe you've reached the heightof success and you played this
arena and you're like, wow, Ireally did it.
I think there's still probably,and if not even more, of a
(34:09):
nagging feeling of just like,what now?
That's just kind of alwaysthere, even if you're not a
musician, even if you're aperson.
I just think that's such a humanthing.
with music and making somethingand putting it out there and
wanting it to be received in acertain way.
And then if it's not, yeah, it'shard not to take that
(34:32):
personally.
Well, I'm glad that you don'thave
SPEAKER_02 (34:35):
any haters
SPEAKER_01 (34:37):
though.
SPEAKER_02 (34:39):
So our podcast also is about solutions.
You talked about therapy, whichis really good, but what are
some things that you do on adaily basis for self-care, for
your mental health?
SPEAKER_01 (34:52):
I am a very extroverted person.
Because I was like, yeah, whatis self-care for me?
(35:13):
Do I want to go get my nailsdone?
Not really.
Do I want to get a massage?
I mean, sure, but I don't reallywant to do it.
A lot of times what I wanted wasto hang out with people and to
remember, oh yeah, my music,work, all that stress is not the
end-all be-all in my life.
And my life is about the peoplein it and being there for them
(35:33):
and just sort of having...
real people in front of me inreal life.
And reminding myself of thathelps me snap out of that spiral
sometimes of what's going tohappen?
What am I doing?
It just helps me get out of myhead and into just enjoying
life.
(35:54):
So that's a lot of what I do.
Or I'll go on a walk.
I'll get out of the house.
I mean, it's so hard not to talkabout pandemic life because
that's been our last year and ahalf, which really threw a
wrench into being able to hangout with people.
So as you can imagine, it waspretty tough.
But going on long walks, I'lllisten to a podcast or I'll
(36:16):
listen to music or I'll journal.
Anything that can get me out ofmy head is pretty helpful.
And a lot of times that meanseither processing it out loud
with someone who I trust orphysically moving my body.
I don't get a ton of relief frombeing still.
(36:37):
Not that I don't like a massageor something, a bath, but those
are some things I like to try.
But I'm also an extrovertedperson.
So if you're an introvert, it'smaybe not for you.
SPEAKER_02 (36:51):
Before the pandemic, I realized how much I got out of
the house sometimes just toescape the thoughts that we
could have when we're just byourself.
Exactly.
Then you're just, okay.
But one thing you mentioned isjournaling.
And journaling is something thathelps you focus and also kind of
(37:12):
review your day or whatever itis.
Tell me about that.
What do you do with yourjournaling?
I
SPEAKER_01 (37:19):
mean, I go through spurts of journaling.
I don't want it to make it soundlike I'm so good about it and I
do it every single day.
I don't.
But when I can set aside time todo it and actually make myself
do it, it is a nice way to justget whatever the mess is in my
head.
(37:40):
When I put it out on a page,it's like writing songs too.
It helps get it out of my head.
And then it either just livesthere or it becomes a song or it
helps me sort of get to anotherplace with whatever the worry is
I have most of the time.
So it is helpful.
I mean, it's funny.
(38:01):
I've talk to people aboutjournaling.
And this is just something thatI wonder if other people
experience.
It's like, it's not totally easyto detach from it also being a
performance.
This is actually crazy becauseyou're like, what if someone
finds this and reads this?
What are they going to say?
I can almost censor what I'mwriting in a journal sometimes
because what if I die andsomeone picks it up and reads it
(38:22):
and what are they going to thinkand are they going to judge me?
I'm literally going to be dead.
Why do I care?
I
SPEAKER_02 (38:28):
just thought that was hilarious.
I seriously think that's the bigfear, like somebody breaking
into your diary.
That's what it is.
It's a diary.
I
SPEAKER_01 (38:38):
know.
Yeah.
I can eventually get past thatfear out of necessity of needing
to do it.
But yeah, every time I'm able towrite it down in some way, even
if it's just in my notes app,it's usually helpful in trying
to process it.
SPEAKER_02 (38:57):
Yeah, I do
SPEAKER_01 (38:57):
think that's true.
SPEAKER_02 (38:59):
It's funny how when something comes out of your
head, whether it's your words orwords on a piece of paper, that
you could stop thinking aboutit.
SPEAKER_01 (39:07):
Yes.
You can kind of stop thinkingabout it.
I don't know if it makes youstop thinking about it entirely,
but at least helps you get to adifferent place with it.
So you're not obsessing over theone detail that you've been
playing on loop in your head forhowever long.
SPEAKER_02 (39:23):
You know, one thing I wanted to ask you about
perfectionism, because this is atheme that's come up with some
other musicians.
And I get like that myself.
Do you feel like you ever putthat on other
SPEAKER_01 (39:36):
people?
Gosh, I feel like most of myperfectionism is all directed at
me.
I feel like I could probably cutother people a ton of slack and
be like, oh, it's fine.
You're only human.
Don't worry about it.
And then if I do some sort ofmisstep, it's like, how could
(39:57):
you do that?
You're an idiot.
All the bad talk is directed atme and all the pressure is put
on me to be perfect.
I don't know that I put that onother people unless it's someone
really, really close to me.
I don't know.
That's something to think aboutfor sure.
I'll be directed at myself,which is not good.
SPEAKER_02 (40:20):
Well, you want to treat yourself like your best
friend.
I'm trying to, but that's reallyhard.
I know because sometimes it'sautomatic or we've been doing it
for so long.
SPEAKER_01 (40:31):
Yeah, it's kind of like that blame thing.
Well, as long as there's someoneto blame, even if it's myself,
I'll take it.
SPEAKER_02 (40:38):
Well, Caitlin, you have been very open and honest.
Is there anything else that youwould like to say about mental
health or about your music?
SPEAKER_01 (40:48):
Gosh, I feel excited about the album and just excited
that people to get a chance tohopefully know me a little bit
more deeply than they havebefore.
I'm excited to share thesesongs.
And yeah, you know, hopefully bythe end of this, I'll have some
haters.
Maybe I'll become one.
(41:09):
I get it.
I
SPEAKER_02 (41:09):
get it.
Next up, we have part two of ourinterview with Dr.
Adi Jaffe, a psychologist whostill speaks at his alma mater
of UCLA and is a nationallyrecognized expert on mental
health and addiction.
In part one of our interview,Dr.
Jaffe shared his own story andtechniques from his book, The
(41:30):
Abstinence Myth, a new approachfor overcoming addiction without
shame, judgment, or rules.
Now let's hear Dr.
Jaffe share more insight intolong-lasting recovery.
SPEAKER_00 (41:43):
All the addiction is, is a coping strategy and a
symptom of the actual underlyingissue.
So if you keep addressing thealcohol or the gambling or the
drugs or the sex, it's likeplaying whack-a-mole.
Really what you're getting at isa symptom.
And what we need to do is weneed to get honest.
Exploration is the first part ofwhat we do.
We explore why are you reallyhere?
(42:05):
So that can be earlydevelopmental issues.
It can be physical problems.
It can be trauma.
I think there are a lot ofenvironmental influences, right?
People are in troublingrelationships.
Explore why you're here.
One of our big models thatignited is F-shame.
I'll use the PG version of it.
And the reason I say that iswhen people understand and
connect back to why they'reactually here, there's a lot of
(42:26):
shame that comes up.
I was running a group yesterdayand we talked about something
called ACEs, which is AdverseChildhood Experiences.
People with more than fouradverse childhood experiences
have been shown to have a two tothree time greater likelihood of
struggling with severe mentalhealth and addiction issues
later on in life.
But it makes sense when youthink about it.
If you were sexually abused orphysically abused or lived in a
(42:49):
violent environment or werebullied heavily when you were
young, I don't doubt why youdevelop mental health and
addiction issues.
I understand them.
So we went through this in agroup and had about 25, 30
people in this group.
About half the people had 10 or11 of these experiences in their
childhood.
And you saw the impact in ourgroup of people realizing the
(43:11):
depths of the trauma that theyhad been through in life.
Now, some of these people havebeen to rehab before.
They've tried AA before.
They've been to therapy foryears.
But to have an assessment rightthere laid out in front of them,
we had these really emotionalconversations.
And the conversation went likethis.
Okay, now you know.
You know that trauma plays amajor part And you have a list
(43:32):
of those things.
If you want to fix yourdrinking, you've got to go fix
the trauma.
And it made so much more senseto a lot of these people than
what they had been trying to dofor years before, which was they
were trying to stop the drinkingand then go address the trauma.
(43:58):
I think what we're doing rightnow at Ignited is we're giving
people a voice where unlike whathappened to me in treatment and
in therapy, their livedexperience and the reasons why
they are suffering come to theforefront so they can deal with
those first and foremost.
And so what ends up happening isthe vast majority of people do
our work and they're excitedabout it.
(44:20):
They're happy about it.
Why?
Because it's giving them freedombefore asking them for anything.
SPEAKER_02 (44:25):
It sounds like the psychotherapy part of your
program really is more of thefocus, whereas kind of talking
about addiction, it's like asymptom to the core problem and
the core problem being having todeal with issues, which can be,
like you said, it could betrauma, but it can also be
something biological.
(44:46):
Let's say something physicalthat's happening.
I know like thyroid conditionscan cause mood disorders.
Different hormonal changes cancause mood disorders.
You're talking about labels thatcause shame.
And the thing is, is I thinkbecause people may not
understand about mood disordersor about addiction, that people
(45:07):
might say, okay, I'm an addict,but they might be sober for 28
years.
And maybe that label isuncomfortable to wear for 28
years.
But I do think it's great thatyou're going...
to the core of the problembecause that's really where it
all starts.
And oftentimes doctors don'teven take the time to find out
(45:29):
what that is.
They just want to give you likea quick fix to
SPEAKER_00 (45:34):
fix the other symptom.
So for instance, you weretalking about physical aspects.
Like I found out thatHashimoto's low thyroid
activity, and I was coming to myprimary physician who I'd known
for years, by the way, and wassaying, look, I don't know
what's going on, but I wake upand I'm tired all day.
Even if I get eight hours ofsleep, I'm tired all day.
I have no motivation.
It took him three years to findthis low thyroid function, which
(45:57):
is, by the way, reallyupsetting.
I was living with it before Icame to him.
So four to five years that I'mliving, essentially feeling
depressed.
SPEAKER_02 (46:07):
Yes.
And I totally agree with youbecause I...
had hormonal issues.
Not one doctor or psychiatristtalked to me about that while I
was going through menopause.
They knew what my age was, neverbrought that up.
And I said nothing specificallysad or traumatic has gone on in
my life currently.
(46:28):
or even so much in the past.
I mean, so I was confused.
I had to play detective to dothat.
And that's it.
It's like, if you have thisthyroid condition that's causing
you depression, all thecounseling in the world is not
going to make a differenceunless you find out what that
biological reason is.
SPEAKER_00 (46:47):
We talk about nutrition.
We talk about exercise andmovement.
We talk about thyroid and otherhormonal functions.
I think part of the big thingswe do for people is we help them
stop having to play detective.
And we say, look, here are allthe things that we've seen
create an effect.
So if you struggle with sleep,here are some of the things that
(47:08):
may be causing an impact here.
Do any of these fit?
If they fit, go do that work.
But some of it is nutrition.
One of the craziest things, andto this day, it makes me laugh.
You'll go to an AA meeting andeverybody's smoking and
everybody's drinking oreverybody's vaping.
No problem with that,apparently.
It's going to disturb people'ssleep.
It's going to cause themanxiety.
It's going to cause adrenalfatigue and make their body feel
(47:31):
tired all the time.
But that's fine.
Just go to another meeting.
And so I tell people all thetime, I say, look, if you
consume a lot of sugar, that'sgoing to cause mood
dysregulation for you.
So if you're feeling down andsad and distressed and upset,
play around with sugar intake.
(47:51):
Just because you just stoppedalcohol or you dropped alcohol
doesn't mean you have to takesomething else to to fix those
aspects of your mood, right?
And so what you're saying is soright on in terms of the way
that we talk to people becausewe do the same with spirituality
and environment.
You know how many people I talkto who come to me for alcohol
issues?
(48:12):
And when we get into it, I findout they've been in an unhappy
marriage for 18 years.
And they're like, look, I'm analcoholic.
I don't know why I drink.
And I know why you drink.
You drink because you've beenunhappy in your marriage for 18
years.
I'm not going to be able to fixyour drinking unless we fix your
marriage or you leave thisrelationship.
But people don't think aboutthis.
(48:33):
So that's not trauma, right?
Being in an unhappy marriage isnot traumatic per se, but it
causes stress and it causesanxiety.
It causes dissociation.
It causes massive environmentalstress.
So all these things, sometimesit's the first time because
oftentimes it's the partnerwho's telling this person to
stop drinking.
(48:54):
And so- All of these aspects arethe things we present to our
people.
So what's beautiful about ourgroups is you'll have people who
fix their issue throughmedication and other people who
fix it because they got out of abad relationship and other
people who change jobs and otherpeople who are dealing with
their trauma.
They all did their own work, butwhat brings them together is
that they're focused on thesolution instead of what happens
(49:16):
in traditional recoveryoftentimes, which is constantly
focusing on the problem, right?
Hey, my name is this.
I'm an addict.
And let me tell you about how Igot here and how bad it was.
And for me, it's like, okay, Idon't need to dwell on the past.
Let's understand that we have aproblem and work forward and
make ourselves better.
SPEAKER_02 (49:33):
Yeah, and also finding out what the problem is
is a huge thing.
And there's a lot of trial anderror and then also a lot of
introspection that sometimesit's hard for people to kind of
look at themselves or even talkabout what happened in the past
that they're still carrying.
But I do think that's a reallyimportant service because that
whole journey, that whole trialand error period to find out
(49:56):
what works for your body, whatworks for your lifestyle, what
works for your personality, Ittakes a lot of time and that's
the time that some people canlose their lives.
SPEAKER_00 (50:07):
100%.
And that's why I'm againstmaking people feel like if they
had a drink, they failed.
Whereas if they were sober, theysucceeded.
Because we know the vastmajority of people will slip up.
And while people who've beensober for a very long time tell
me, hey, you know, we don'tshame people who get into
relapse.
That's not what happens when youtalk to the people who are
(50:29):
actually relapsing.
They feel very much like they'rebeing shamed.
You know, go back to thebeginning of the line, reset
your counter to zero.
And so what I always say is,look, if we're here to help,
then let's put the help first.
Let's not create requirementsfor help.
Let's not tell somebody, look, Iwill only help you if.
(50:50):
My argument at Ignite is verysimple.
And by the way, we're not freelike AA, but some of our
solutions are like$1.90 a day.
We try to make it as cheap ashumanly possible for us to be
able to offer this help becauseI totally agree.
We have to make it easy forpeople and then let them roll
in.
And if they slip up, say, hey,what happened?
Tell us.
Let's just talk about it.
(51:10):
Explore.
Let's talk about what happened,what went wrong so we can get
better and do better next time.
SPEAKER_02 (51:16):
Yeah, it's sort of the principle of when we learn
how to do anything new, we makemistakes.
And as we make mistakes, we...
hopefully learn from them andtry to do something different to
finally get to the point whereyou get to be healthy.
Now you have the ignitedprogram, but you call it the
(51:37):
ignited hero program, which Ilike because it focuses on the
positive things that you'redoing and also understanding
that there could be slip ups.
SPEAKER_00 (51:48):
I'll tell you the reason I called it the hero
program.
When I listened to the storiesof some of the people who made
it, to our program, what I tryto point out to them is you
already won.
The fact that you're even hereright now and you're working on
yourself is already a hugetestament to how big of a person
you are.
The hero part is partiallyrecognizing the internal persona
(52:13):
that is within them and thatthey're just trying to uncover.
Because while everybody else hastalked down to them their entire
life, what I've noticed is a lotof these people are incredibly
resilient and full of grit.
They were born intocircumstances or they had
experiences or they madeerroneous choices in the middle
of their life that led them downthe wrong path.
(52:33):
But they're incredibly stronghuman beings that have a lot to
offer the world.
SPEAKER_02 (52:38):
Well, I'm glad you do that because I also have
something.
I'm going to show you my T-shirthere.
It's called Superhero.
We call the people that come onto the show Check Your Head
Superheroes because the thing issomething like mood disorders,
which is often...
tied to addiction, these aresilent struggles.
(52:59):
It's a battle.
It's a war that is won bysomebody who's still standing
there and looking for theiranswers.
But that war is the battle ofour lives.
And to win that, to even bealive, is the greatest battle of
your life.
SPEAKER_00 (53:20):
Well, the thing that sucks so much about stigma and
shame, which is why I fightagainst it so badly, is all
those things you mentioned, youunderstand the external
circumstances that are leadingto the problem.
Like if you have a bad marriage,there's something about the
partner, there's something aboutthe interaction.
You can see it happening.
But when it's in between yourears, you start believing
(53:42):
there's something deeply wrongwith you.
You start thinking of yourselfas a broken human being.
And I'm sorry if anybody'slistening right now and has this
sentiment for themselves, you'renot a broken human being.
You're imperfect, but newsflash,everybody's imperfect.
So, this is one of the things Ilove about musicians, but if you
(54:04):
really listen to what a lot ofthe people you're paying
attention to are speaking andwriting, it's about pain.
They're expressing things thatmost of us are uncomfortable
saying out loud, which is whymusic touches people so deeply
is There is this emotionalconnection.
But now let's extend that alittle bit and say, well, why
(54:25):
can't we all become moreexpressive about the struggles
that we go through?
Why can't we all become braveand say, you know what?
I'm not going to hide.
I know that other people aroundme are struggling right now.
And by me pretending to beperfect, by me pretending to
have it all together, I'mactually exacerbating the
problem.
Thankfully, we now live in anage where a lot of people who
(54:47):
have celebrity, who have status,who have a voice, a loud and
large voice, have expressedsomething about their own
struggles or about the strugglesof those around them because
that gets served as a beacon, aconnecting sort of anchor.
SPEAKER_02 (55:03):
Right.
I mean, that really is whatwe're trying to do with the
podcast, as well as providing alot of different solutions like
your program, because there's avariety of different mood
disorders.
There's a variety of differentaddictions and there's a variety
of different therapies andthings you can try.
But just to keep persistent, tofind the one that finally works
(55:25):
and to feel good about that, toreally congratulate yourself and
say, you know, I'm like asurvivor and a thriver.
SPEAKER_00 (55:32):
So that is what we love about the work that we do
is we get to see these peoplewho came in broken and hopeless
and they leave or stay with us.
A lot of them stay and serve ascoaches or guides within our
community to new people to say,look, you can have anything you
want.
It's going to take some work.
It's going to requireexploration.
It's going to be a littleuncomfortable sometimes, but
(55:53):
you're going to come out on theother side so much happier and
so much more complete than youare right now.
SPEAKER_02 (55:58):
Well, what is the joy that you feel right now, now
that you look back from whereyou were and who you are today?
Because I really think thatthat's important for people to
realize that once you get to theother side, that there is a joy
and a contentment that is sodifferent from when you were
using.
SPEAKER_00 (56:17):
So I have a practice of gratitude every morning.
And the number of things thatI'm grateful for and that bring
me joy are would be hard tocount now.
I write three to four to five ofthem down a day.
But I have three amazingchildren.
I get to cuddle and read to mythree-year-old and listen to her
asking for me when she wants meinstead of her mom.
(56:40):
I get to go snowboarding duringthe winter with my boys, who
they love it.
I coach my son's soccer team.
I get to have conversations likethis and help hundreds and
thousands of people every yeararound addiction and some of the
same struggles I had.
I get to travel.
I get to read amazing books.
I get to eat amazing food.
(57:00):
That's great to hear.
SPEAKER_02 (57:29):
Well, Dr.
Jaffe, is there anything elsethat you'd like to say about
addiction or mental health orabout the Ignited program?
SPEAKER_00 (57:38):
I'll just say, look, if you're struggling right now,
let me just be very clear.
There's a solution out therethat'll work for you.
You may need to look a littleharder and you may need to dig a
little bit deeper than whateverybody else is talking about
to find the solution that isright for you.
If what I'm talking about soundsanywhere near familiar or
something that you'd want to tryout, we have the Ignited podcast
and that's spelled IGNTD.
(58:00):
And if you go to ignited.com,IGNTD.com, not only do we give
two weeks free of our help andso much in the podcast and so
much support in that way, wealso have a free seven-day sober
experiment that people can takeon to uncover some of these
underlying reasons.
So that is videos where I walkyou through every single day of
(58:20):
how to get under the hood andunderstand what it is that I'm
talking about.
So that's completely free.
And in general, just reach out,right?
This is my purpose in life.
This is what I do now.
And so if there's anything thatI can do to help, just know you
never lose hope.
There's always hope that youwill find the set of tools that
will help you.
SPEAKER_02 (58:38):
A big thank you to our musical guest, Caitlin
Tarver, and our mental healthand addiction expert, Dr.
Adi Jaffe.
For more information on CaitlinTarver and to purchase her new
album, Subject to Change, visitCaitlinTarver.com and be sure to
catch Caitlin on tour withJohnny Swim starting December
7th, 2021.
(58:59):
Follow Caitlin on our socials atCaitlinTarver and at
CaitlinTarverOnline and staytuned to listen to a clip of
Caitlin's single Shit Happens atthe end of our episode.
For more information on Dr.
Adi Jaffe, visit ignited.com,that's I-G-N-T-D dot com, and
follow Dr.
(59:19):
Jaffe on his socials, at Dr.
Adi Jaffe.
If you'd like to partner, raisefunds, or give feedback on the
podcast, email us atcheckyourheadpodcast at
gmail.com or visit us atcheckyourheadpodcast.com to find
free and affordable mental help.
So until next time, Be brave,ask for help, and be persistent
(59:40):
in finding the mental help thatyou need.
SPEAKER_03 (59:42):
There's not always someone or something to blame.
(01:00:07):
Sometimes shit just happensworse than you can imagine.
SPEAKER_02 (01:00:14):
Check Your Head Podcast is kindly supported and
partnered with Sweet ReliefMusicians Fund, DBSA San Gabriel
Valley, Earshot Media, and LemonTree Studios in Los Angeles.
Visit checkyourheadpodcast.comwhere we have over 100 solutions
for mental health.
Be our friends on social mediaat Check Your Head Podcast.
(01:00:34):
Watch us on YouTube and supportus with a kind donation on
checkyourheadpodcast.com.
Check Your Head Podcast issponsored by a 501c3 nonprofit
with all donations being taxdeductible.
Thank you for your support andthank you for listening.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Special Summer Offer: Exclusively on Apple Podcasts, try our Dateline Premium subscription completely free for one month! With Dateline Premium, you get every episode ad-free plus exclusive bonus content.
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!