CHECK YOUR HEAD Podcast "Reboot" of Katelyn Tarver speaking on Anxiety & Teen Self-Doubt for World Teen Mental Health Day, celebrated on March 2, 2025.
Mari Fong interviews Katelyn Tarver, singer-songwriter and actress, and Dr. Adi Jaffe, psychologist, addiction specialist, and author of The Abstinence Myth.
Katelyn Tarver shares her story and solutions for living with anxiety and teen self-doubt, growing up in the spotlight as a young girl. Katelyn was only 16 when her first EP was released, followed by 5 more EPs before winning NBC's "Songland" in 2019. Katelyn was only 14 when she first debuted on television, often feeling overwhelming fear and nervousness throughout her career.
Next, we have Part 2 of the interview with expert Dr. Adi Jaffe, Ph.D, psychologist and author of the book,The Abstinence Myth. Dr. Jaffe shares the importance of finding the root causes of addiction and how therapy can be essential to longtime recovery and sobriety. He explains his unique approach with the IGNTD program.
“Be brave, ask for help, and be persistent in finding the mental help that you need.” For free and affordable solutions for mental health and addiction recovery, visit: http://checkyourheadpodcast.com/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_03 (00:00):
Welcome to the Check Your Head podcast, the podcast
where notable musicians andexperts share their stories and
solutions for mental health andwellness.
I'm your host, Mari Fong, amusic journalist and life coach
for musicians, and November isthe month of Thanksgiving when
we show our thanks and gratitudeto those around us with our
(00:23):
words and our actions.
With Thanksgiving, we think offamily, but anyone can really be
our family if we let them intoour lives.
So let's make it a habit to letothers know how you feel, what
their friendship means to you,or why you love them.
Show them with your actions byspending time, helping out, and
being there for them.
(00:43):
Expressing my gratitude issomething I enjoy because it's a
meaningful way to brighten upsomeone's day.
So today I'd like to show you myappreciation to all the
listeners, guests, andsupporters of the Check Your
Head podcast.
I'm truly grateful for thisexperience, and I'm proud to say
that we're now in the top 3% ofpodcasts worldwide, and that is
(01:04):
all thanks to you.
Thank you for your reviews, yourfollows and likes on our
socials, YouTube views, andespecially for being part of the
positive difference of bettermental health for us all.
You are my Check Your Headsuperheroes.
Now to our featured guests.
You may have first seen thissinger-songwriter and actress on
(01:25):
the Nickelodeon series Big TimeRush or on the HBO series
Ballers, but her first taste ofmusical fame was co-writing
Cheryl Cole's number one UKsingle Crazy Stupid Love and
then released six EPs of her ownmusic before winning NBC's
Songland in 2019.
Today's musical guest is indiepop artist Caitlin Tarver, whose
(01:49):
album Subject to Change droppedon November 12, 2021, and we'll
play a clip of her single ShitHappens at the end of our
episode.
Caitlin shares her real-worldsolutions for dealing with the
anxiety and self-doubt thatcomes with her career, and how
she spills her moods into songslike You Don't Know, a song that
captured how it feels whenyou're not okay, and the many
(02:12):
songs on her new album filledwith emotional honesty and
vulnerability.
Next, we have part two of ourinterview with expert Dr.
Adi Jaffe, a Ph.D.
psychologist and author of thebook The Abstinence Myth.
Dr.
Jaffe shares the importance ofplaying detective when finding
the root causes of addiction andalso how therapy can be
(02:34):
essential to long-term recoveryand sobriety.
But first, let's hear KaitlynTarver share her story.
Kaitlyn, congratulations on yourupcoming album that's called
Subject to Change.
Some people know you as anactress, but you are also a
longtime singer-songwriter.
(02:54):
Mm-hmm.
And one thing I read that Ireally loved was that you wanted
to write songs currently thatmake people feel less crazy for
feeling how they feel.
And haven't we all gone throughtimes like that?
Haven't we?
You know, and I do believe thatalbums kind of represent a
chapter in our lives.
(03:15):
How do the songs on subject tochange sort of represent this
chapter of your life?
You know, I
SPEAKER_02 (03:22):
think even with what I was saying of making people
feel less crazy, I've just, inthe past few years, really been
drawn to art that is, you know,more vulnerable, more saying
things that are like...
maybe small things that havebeen in my head and things that
I don't really feel comfortablesaying out loud or wonder if I'm
(03:43):
allowed to say out loud.
And when you hear it, it justgives you such a sense of
comfort because you're like,okay, I'm not alone.
I'm not crazy.
I'm not the only one who feelsthis way.
And, you know, that's kind of anelementary concept, but...
I just got more and more drawnto this idea of trying to dig
deeper within myself and findthose things that I was thinking
(04:05):
and figure out how to say themout loud through my songs.
And I looked up to other artiststhat were doing that.
And so with this album inparticular, I started therapy
last summer.
So it helped just unlock a lotof I don't know, just the
courage to just put stuff outthere and into the songs that I
(04:25):
normally would have shied awayfrom.
And you know, I still feel likein a lot of ways, I'm just
starting to scratch the surfaceof this.
But I do feel like these songscapture a side of me that feels
a little more raw, if you will.
So yeah, it's Everything youcould imagine I'm feeling, I am
(04:46):
feeling, which is excitement,nerves across the board.
But yeah, it's happening.
No going back now.
SPEAKER_03 (04:55):
That's true.
And it takes a lot of bravery topeel back the layers.
And so I congratulate you onthat.
You also mentioned startingtherapy last summer.
So big props to you on thatalso.
What is it that's prompted youto start therapy?
SPEAKER_02 (05:12):
I mean, I've been in this industry essentially since
I was 13 years old.
And now I'm 31, so basicallyhalf my life.
And it was just a lot of what Iwas experiencing with...
trying to pursue this career andwhile also growing up and you
(05:33):
know graduating high school andthen moving to LA and then I got
married young and being a fewyears into a marriage and sort
of hitting that late 20s slumpof just like okay I'm old enough
to have made certain decisionsthat I am now can either look
(05:57):
back and be happy I did or lookback and be like, oh, I wish I
would have done that a littlebit differently.
And just kind of trying to makesense of the choices I have made
and how they affect my life andwhat I want to keep and what I
want to shift.
Just all that stuff that was alot of reevaluation of my life
of like, why am I doing this?
Do I want to still keep pursuingmusic?
(06:19):
Do I want to still keep pursuingacting?
In what way?
What do I even like about this?
Why am I doing it?
Am I just doing it for fame?
It was just all those questionsstarted coming up.
It's a lot of work to kind oftake stock of your life and be
like, okay, I feel a little outof sorts.
What am I going to do about it?
(06:40):
And for me, I put off therapyfor years because I was like
well I'm fine I'm just having amoody week because I didn't get
this part I auditioned for andwhatever I'll get over it and
then I think you realize yearspass and you're still feeling in
this funk and you're like well Igotta face it at some point or
(07:03):
another and then obviously throwa pandemic on top of it and that
was enough to make me make thecall
SPEAKER_03 (07:12):
Good for you.
I mean, it almost sounds likeyou've got to a point where you
really want to plan out the nextfew years of your life.
And you know, the 20s are reallyturbulent.
I think sometimes we just kindof go with the flow, not really
stopping to think, what do wereally want to do?
Because so much is coming at usand we have so much of this
(07:34):
energy, almost like nervousenergy.
Well, what did you discover nowthat you're in therapy about
SPEAKER_02 (07:40):
yourself?
It's interesting that you saythe 20s are turbulent because
they are.
But for me, I think I kind ofunconsciously was a person that
was like, I want to make all theright moves.
I want to plan my life out so Idon't experience any turbulence.
I am going to move to LA.
I'm going to do this career.
I'm going to get married.
(08:01):
I'm going to like check allthese boxes so that I don't have
any surprises that will throw meoff course.
And obviously that's just notrealistic for me unconsciously
just craving certainty cravingcontrol craving a path that felt
secure and all the while beingin a career that is none of
(08:26):
those things and also realizingthat life is none of those
things i think a big thing forme in the past few years and
even in going through therapy islike how much i want certainty
about things and I want solidground and I don't like unknown
and I don't like change and Idon't like when things throw me
off and life just kept doingthat that's a lot of what I
(08:49):
learned and honestly what thealbum is touching on and even
why I called it subject tochange is just sort of wanting
to learn how to be open tolife's uncertainty and realizing
that it's okay to not knoweverything or not be sure or not
have a mapped out path like it'sokay to make mistakes it's okay
(09:13):
to like not be a perfectionistlike all that kind of stuff I'm
you know trying to rework in mybrain and a lot of what I was
working through while makingthis album
SPEAKER_03 (09:25):
it comes with experience and with with
maturity yeah to realize thatyou know that we only have so
much Right.
Right.
(09:58):
And you know, you had a song.
It was called You Don't Know.
And that's the one that got 56million views.
And it was voted by ParadeMagazine as one of the
depression songs that will helpyou feel less alone.
And from that, can you remembersome of the comments or messages
(10:18):
that you received from your fansabout the song?
SPEAKER_02 (10:22):
My God, there's been so many at this point, which is
just so crazy.
It can be easy for me and allartists to kind of forget like
what we're all ultimately afteris to try and connect with
people and try to offer somesort of connection through our
(10:44):
art and what we write or say.
And it can get clouded by tryingto measure your success against
other people or like how manystreams or numbers or
popularity, you know.
I can get so overtaken withwanting all of these markers of
success and forgetting thatreally the marker of success
should be getting these messagesfrom fans that are like, this
(11:08):
song helped me make sense of myanxiety or my depression or
helped me feel less alone.
I mean, I've gotten hundreds andhundreds, even the comments on
the video, still to this day,they're still piling up of
people just saying how much it'shelped them it helps me to
(11:29):
continue to press into thatfeeling of trying to communicate
what that song is about which isessentially it's okay to feel
sadness to feel heaviness tofeel you know kind of these
quote unquote negative emotionslike We all feel those things
and it's okay to not just likegloss over them and put a
(11:51):
bandaid and present this versionof yourself that's happy,
perfect person.
That's what that song tappedinto was just, you know, there's
almost like a frustration in thelyrics of, hey, like, just let
me feel this for a second.
I'm not saying I want to livehere forever or that I should
live here forever, but I don'tknow.
That's kind of the sense that Iget when people talk to me about
(12:14):
it is like it helps them feelsomething in a way that maybe
helped it feel a little lessheavy.
So it's really meaningful.
SPEAKER_03 (12:24):
A lot of that song is about acceptance, acceptance
of the full range of emotionsthat we all have.
Because I do find that sometimesthere are certain people that
will only accept us when we havethe acceptable emotions,
according to them.
And when you you approach themand you're honest, they will be
(12:46):
like, well, snap out of this.
Or how could you feel that waywhen your life is going so good?
And all of these comments thatcan be really hurtful when
you're in a bad place.
And we all have certain people,special people in our lives
where we have that bond where wecan be our true selves.
(13:06):
Who is that for you?
And how did that trust bonddevelop?
SPEAKER_02 (13:12):
Gosh, I mean, I've always had a really supportive
family.
I got married young, so I'vebeen with my husband.
We've been married seven years.
We've been together for 11.
So, I mean, I started dating himwhen I was 20.
So we definitely have a prettydeep bond of acceptance, and
he's very encouraging of medoing exactly what I want to do
(13:35):
and saying exactly what I wantto say and putting my work out
there.
which I think has really helpedme have the confidence to keep
doing it.
And I feel very lucky.
I feel like I am surrounded by alot of people who allow me to be
myself and have these emotions.
(13:56):
You're right.
It does make a huge differencewhen you have that in your life
as opposed to not.
You just feel a lot safer tohave these messy emotions and be
able to kind of put it out thereand not, you know, be judged for
it or feel like you're too much.
I mean, a lot of reason of why Istarted therapy too, is like,
(14:16):
you can have someone that youpay to say these things too.
Cause yeah, eventually yourfamily's like, all right, yeah,
we get it enough.
It's hard.
But I think ultimately I do feellike I have their support, which
I'm really grateful for.
SPEAKER_03 (14:32):
You know, you have that song called You Can Fall
Apart Too.
Yeah.
And that's kind of what itreminds me of is this, the
ability to be able to fall apartto somebody and that they are
going to be there for you.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (14:48):
You know, that was honestly kind of about my
marriage and my relationship.
I felt like I was becoming theone that was always there
complaining or having these bigfeelings and putting them on to
him and expecting him to be ableto carry it.
And then realize having thismoment of like, oh, I want to be
(15:11):
that for you too.
I want to be able to make sureI'm a place that you can feel
safe to come to as well.
And I had to kind of think aboutthat and reassess how I was
unloading a lot of my emotionsall the time.
And maybe it wasn't even a Butwe also just have different
personalities.
And I think that was kind of thesentiment.
(15:31):
It's like a song about wantingto be a safe space for someone
or a safe place for someone toland.
Yeah, that's a special one tome.
SPEAKER_03 (15:42):
Well, you know, the one song I've been able to hear
from your new album, it's calledShit Happens.
Yes.
And that happens to all of us inour lives, sometimes on a daily
basis.
SPEAKER_02 (15:52):
Yep.
SPEAKER_03 (15:54):
There's a habit that happens is that we look for
blame.
SPEAKER_04 (15:57):
What
SPEAKER_03 (15:59):
do you think the danger is in doing that?
Looking for blame when things gowrong.
SPEAKER_02 (16:05):
Oh, man.
It can just be a habit.
It can be kind of like anunconscious thing.
It's like an attempt forcontrol.
It's an attempt for control.
okay, if I can figure out who toblame here, then I can put the
blame on them.
Therefore, this shitty thingthat happened makes sense.
(16:25):
So I don't feel like everythingis chaos or random.
It's one thing when it's like, Ispilled coffee on my shirt
earlier.
It's like, oh, shoot, you know,there's like these lighthearted,
every take kind of shit happensmoments.
And then There's tragic, awful,horrific experiences that humans
(16:48):
face that that's what can bereally challenging.
Like, well, who are you going toblame for this?
Because most things like thatdon't have anyone to blame.
And that's kind of the heart ofthe song is just talking about
that balance of, okay, is itreally going to make it better
if you find someone to blame?
Usually not.
(17:09):
For me, it doesn't.
I mean, oh, okay, I guess I knownow who to blame.
Is that really that helpful?
With the bigger kind of tragicevents in life, most of the
time, those have no explanation.
And anyone who tries to make itseem like it does is just
uncomfortable with the fact thatthat can happen, which I totally
(17:32):
connect to.
It's scary to think of thingsthat could happen or things that
will never make sense.
I feel like I've been chippingaway at this message since I
wrote You Don't Know, which Iwrote a long time ago.
It's sort of like this, hey,let's all just not try to gloss
over the hard parts of lifebecause ultimately they can be
(17:56):
healing if you face them.
I
SPEAKER_03 (17:57):
think there's also a bond that happens when we share
something really tough about ourlives with somebody.
And I feel sometimes that It'skind of a special moment when
someone trusts me to tell meabout that.
And when you're going throughsomething with somebody as
(18:18):
trying your best to help eachother, it's something that you
don't forget because you knowthat person has been with you
during the good times, which iseasy, and during the bad times,
which can be tough.
But that person was there.
They didn't go away.
And it's so easy to step away.
(18:40):
Oh
SPEAKER_02 (18:42):
yeah, for sure.
It is hard to make it throughthe times that are challenging
because when you go through ahard time, it's not like you can
guarantee you'll have a weekwhere you feel down and then
you'll snap back into your oldself.
I mean, some things linger foryears and I think that's really
(19:02):
uncomfortable.
It's really challenging to dealwith in yourself and with people
close to you But it is bonding,and it almost feels like the
point of life to be there foreach other.
SPEAKER_03 (19:16):
You started to do these Instagram live streams
during the pandemic, and they'vegotten really popular.
What was your initial purposefor coming up with this whole
idea?
Everyone
SPEAKER_02 (19:31):
was going live at the time.
You know, the pandemic hit, liketours were getting canceled.
Everything was going insane.
And everyone was like, let's golive and try to talk to each
other.
Oh, that could be fun.
I was putting some music out.
I was about to go on tour andthen that got canceled.
So it was also just something todo because everything came to a
(19:52):
screeching halt.
And then I kind of just keptdoing it because I was like,
well, this is kind of, fun forme I like getting to talk to
people and having a good timedoing this people seem to still
want to talk to me and peopleare watching it so I'm just
going to keep doing it but yeahit kind of became this really
cool outlet for me to talk aboutcreativity and music and I mean
(20:17):
some of them were really lightand fun the whole time some of
them got a little more in depthand I got to meet a lot of new
people by doing it too because Ieventually ran out of you know
friends It's like, oh, I wonderif this person I like their
music or like their writing orwhatever would do it.
And so I got to interview a lotof cool people, which ended up
(20:38):
in us, you know, now knowingeach other and kind of keeping
in touch, which has been whichhas been cool.
SPEAKER_03 (20:44):
I was reading somewhere that you were starting
to write more songs that have amessage, which, you know, shows
your depth.
I was wondering with theseInstagram live streams, can you
remember some of theconversations that had heavier
topics and what were thosetopics about?
I
SPEAKER_02 (21:02):
have a terrible memory, but I remember, I'm just
a huge fan of this author namedJedediah Jenkins.
We ended up having a really coolconversation and I was so
excited to get to talk to him.
And I feel like a lot of what hesaid was, What's kind of
touching on a lot of what we'vetalked about here so far, you
(21:26):
know, like no one's got itfigured out.
We're all just kind of learningas we go.
I feel like that's just apowerful thing to remember when
you're sort of getting locked ina comparison or feeling like
you're not quite where you wantto be or you want to get to a
(21:46):
certain place and you're hittingall these roadblocks.
Like it can just be a lot to getcaught up in.
And I felt like a lot of hiswriting was sort of touching on
a lot of these themes of, yeah,like no one's got to figure it
out.
We're all learning.
We're all in process.
We're all trying to figure itout, which I'm just always
really drawn to people that areopen like that and not super
(22:08):
certain with like, this is howit is.
This is how things work.
Sometimes
SPEAKER_03 (22:13):
we get competitive with other people.
And then sometimes we getcompetitive trying to reach the
goals that we've set forourselves, which may not even be
realistic without factoring inall of the obstacles along the
way.
And that could be frustrating.
Sometimes when we go throughthese obstacles, it's really
(22:34):
hard to hear things like, well,what did you learn from that?
Until it's way past that you'relike, okay, now I can finally
talk about that.
Totally.
But I do feel like, you know,sometimes these obstacles teach
us to go in a differentdirection that we may not have
expected to go to.
Oh,
SPEAKER_02 (22:54):
for sure.
I mean, I think that's such ahard part of life.
life is all the unexpectedthings that you weren't planning
on entering your path likeinevitably do and it can really
derail you or you can learn howto roll with it and go okay how
(23:18):
do i take this and let it teachme something and eventually you
end up in a place totallydifferent that you weren't
expecting, but that is maybemore rewarding than the thing
you had set out to do.
I'm really trying to remainopen.
I think it's so easy to have aone-track mind and be like, this
(23:41):
is what I'm after, this is whatI'm trying to accomplish, and
I'm going to do anything I canto get there.
And yeah, you get competitive,you get obsessed with these very
specific markers, and theynever...
feel as good as you thinkthey're going to feel.
And then you get there andyou're like, I did it.
And then you're like, what'snext?
(24:01):
For sure.
Or you don't get those markersand it's really disappointing
and it makes you really down onyourself and have to deal with
those emotions coming up andthese feelings of inadequacy and
self-doubt.
It's funny what you said.
It reminded me, like I alwaysget a little frustrated with
People coming on and talkingabout their success stories, you
(24:24):
know, everyone comes on and Ididn't think I was going to get
to this point.
And then right when I gave up, Igot it.
And it's just sort of createsthis feeling of, wait, okay, so
what?
It's always easier in hindsightto like share your success
stories.
I think in general, thingsrarely turn out exactly how you
(24:45):
expect they're going to.
And that can be reallydisappointing and really hard to
deal with.
And I think it's hard to talkabout because it's like, well,
things aren't going bad.
They're just different than whatI thought.
And it's hard to know how todeal with it.
SPEAKER_03 (25:00):
Yeah, just having the flexibility to kind of go
with what's going on and maybetry to turn it in your favor.
It comes with maturity and withexperience.
Yeah.
One thing you mentioned wasappearances.
And sometimes on social media,it's like the perfect place
where people kind of put onappearances, making it look like
(25:24):
everything is perfect.
Right.
But one thing I'm wondering,especially from somebody who's
been in music and also who'sbeen an actress, sometimes the
comments can really be hurtfuland come out of left field.
How do you manage that?
And what is your attitude towardnegative social media comments?
(25:47):
You know, I
SPEAKER_02 (25:48):
feel pretty lucky so far.
I don't feel like that's been ahuge part of my story.
There have definitely beennegative comments.
And I am a huge baby when theyhappen and I get very hurt and I
will literally treat it as ifthis person has known me my
(26:08):
whole life and what they'resaying holds so much weight and
I can be like what they don'teven know me and it will just
stick in your brain so long butthat's something that I have not
had to deal with a lot,thankfully, because I don't deal
with that many haters.
(26:29):
I've gotten the occasional haterand it has ruined my week.
So I'll probably really fallapart when I start getting real
haters.
No, I'm kidding.
I'm kidding.
But yeah, I hear biggercelebrities talk about haters
and negative comments and Itreally is so hurtful.
(26:53):
I do think it's just sointeresting how some people can
get behind a screen and saythings so mean and negative
towards someone they've nevermet.
Even if they are famous, it'scool for celebrities to come out
and be like, hey, we areactually just human beings and
(27:13):
we are very fragile andsensitive just like you are.
So this is hurtful.
SPEAKER_03 (27:21):
Yeah, I think you're right.
People don't think maybe thatperson is going to read it and
it's maybe their way of ventingin some way, but it could be
very harsh because it'scompletely unfiltered.
And when we talk with peoplelike on a regular normal basis,
no one will say something likewhat is said in social media.
(27:41):
So it's kind of just anunrealistic medium,
SPEAKER_02 (27:46):
I suppose.
You have to kind of do your ownassessment of what you can
handle.
Because for me, and I'm not goodat this, by the way, I hardly
put any restrictions on itbecause I'm addicted.
But when I wake up and I startscrolling and I see something
that set off something in methat's made me now feel bad
about myself.
(28:07):
And then I'll take that, I'lltry to brush it off, but I'll
sort of be irritated.
And I'll be like, why am Iirritated?
It's always kind of tracing backto something that I saw that
then made me compare myself tothem and compare my path to
them.
And now I'm somehow thinkingthat my whole trajectory is
doomed.
And I'm like, what?
(28:28):
How did this happen?
You know, I'm exaggeratingslightly, but it is such a hard
thing.
thing to know how to balance andI mean I can't imagine growing
up on it for my whole life likekids today having to deal with
social media and the effects ofit and the ramifications it's a
lot for me to deal with as anadult
SPEAKER_03 (28:50):
you know George Clooney said something once he
said his father said You know,when they say really, really
great things about you, justkind of take that with a grain
of salt.
And then on the flip side, ifpeople say like really horrible,
horrible things about you, justtake it with a grain of salt.
You know, because, yeah, maybeyou're like somewhere in the
middle.
(29:11):
Yeah, exactly.
Just try to have those comments,maybe not take them as seriously
as we could sometimes feel them.
Right, yeah, for sure.
One thing you said was youtalked about spiraling and
usually can be compared to whenyou talk about anxiety.
SPEAKER_04 (29:31):
And
SPEAKER_03 (29:32):
then there's also depression.
Do you feel like you haveexperienced either or any of
those during your life orcareer?
SPEAKER_02 (29:40):
Yeah, I think so.
I think definitely.
Yeah.
recognizing that habit ofspiraling and creating
scenarios, naming that asanxiety was helpful for me
because sometimes the perceptionwith mental health, with
anxiety, with depression, it canbe like very real for some
(30:00):
people like depression.
I can't, I can't get out of bed.
I have no motivation.
You know, These very obvioussigns and same with anxiety.
It's like I have panic attacks,which means I can't breathe.
So I wasn't relating to any ofthose.
So I was like, well, I guess Idon't deal with anxiety, but
then sort of seeing the patternsin my life.
(30:23):
Oh, like I tend to do a lot ofprojecting what is going to
happen in the future and tryingto find all the ways that it's
going to go wrong or it's goingto be hard or I'm not going to
get what I want.
You know, I was experiencinganxiety and I still do.
Being like, oh no, that isanxiety was helpful for me
(30:44):
because it was...
oh, okay, that's not just a badday.
That is a form of anxiety.
Spiraling and going out ofcontrol in your head into all
these scenarios and all of asudden you're convinced that all
this bad stuff is going tohappen or you've made every
wrong choice in your past and ifyou would have done it
differently, you would haveended up somewhere differently.
(31:05):
All those kind of mental thingsthat I deal with I definitely
view as anxiety and it's hard toget a handle on it.
It's interesting that you saythat about musicians dealing
with this because this issomething I've been talking with
friends about lately is I wantto put everything I have into
(31:28):
the music and to the songs andto my work and create something
that I feel great about and todo that you have to go so far
and put all of your energy andyou know bleed for the art and
then you're supposed to just letit come out and okay well hands
(31:53):
off like now I just detach fromall of that and I just am fine
with whatever happens I'm easybreezy like I don't even care
that's so unrealistic I don'tunderstand and now you're
getting an earful of me in atherapy session but like It's
(32:13):
just interesting because so muchof the music we love and the art
we love came from, you know,putting a lot of hours, a lot of
work, a lot of tears and sweatand all of the stuff.
And you're kind of offering upyour heart on a platter for
everyone to have an opinionabout.
(32:34):
I mean, it's hard to talk aboutthis even now.
I'm like, oh, wow, wow, hardlife.
I'm just, I'm getting into thehead of a listener being like,
oh oh what a tough life you haveto make music
SPEAKER_03 (32:48):
but you know it's it's it is tough that is the
misconception that from theoutside people say oh well well
look at you how sad but it'stough because you know I used to
interview also for film andactors and actresses, and
(33:08):
oftentimes it almost soundedlike they had more of a prepared
speech about what the movie'sabout, their character.
But with music, it wasdifferent.
Music is every part of that isyou.
The lyrics, the melodies, thestage performance, everything.
You are laying yourself bare.
And it means everything to you.
(33:28):
And that's why I loveinterviewing musicians because
of that.
But on the flip side, whenthings don't work out,
especially if you're like aperfectionist, then it hits a
little harder, right?
It hits harder.
It's so personal because you'relike, oh, you
SPEAKER_02 (33:46):
hate me.
All of me you hate.
So thanks so much.
No, it's a hard thing to handleat every level.
Maybe you've reached the heightof success and you played this
arena and you're like, wow, Ireally did it.
I think there's still probably,and if not even more, of a
(34:09):
nagging feeling of just like,what now that's just kind of
always there even if you're nota musician even if you're a
person i just think that's sucha human thing with music and
making something and putting itout there and wanting it to be
received in a certain way andand then if it's not yeah it's
(34:30):
hard not to take that personallywell
SPEAKER_03 (34:34):
i'm glad that you don't have any haters
SPEAKER_02 (34:37):
though
SPEAKER_03 (34:39):
So our podcast also is about solutions.
You talked about therapy, whichis really good.
But what are some things thatyou do on a daily basis for
self-care, for your mentalhealth?
SPEAKER_02 (34:52):
I am a very extroverted person.
I get a lot of...
comfort out of talking tofriends, hanging out, going out
for a drink, going out for adinner, hosting a party, having
people over.
That, to me, I've realizedbecause I was like, yeah, what
(35:12):
is self-care for me?
Do I want to go get my nailsdone?
Not really.
Do I want to get a massage?
I mean, sure, but I don't reallywant to do it.
A lot of times what I wanted wasto hang out with people and to
remember Oh, yeah, my music,work, all that stress is not the
end-all be-all in my life.
And my life is about the peoplein it and being there for them
(35:33):
and just sort of having realpeople in front of me in real
life and reminding myself ofthat helps me snap out of that
spiral sometimes of what's goingto happen?
What am I doing?
It just helps me get out of myhead and into...
just enjoying life.
(35:54):
So that's a lot of what I do.
Or I'll go on a walk.
I'll get out of the house.
I mean, it's so hard not to talkabout pandemic life because
that's been our last year and ahalf, which really threw a
wrench into being able to hangout with people.
So as you can imagine, it waspretty tough.
But going on long walks, I'lllisten to a podcast or I'll
(36:17):
listen to music or I'll journal.
Anything that can get me out ofmy head is pretty helpful.
And a lot of times that meanseither processing it out loud
with someone who I trust orphysically moving my body.
I don't get a ton of relief frombeing still.
(36:37):
Not that I don't like a massageor a bath, but those are some
things I like to try.
But I'm also an extrovertedperson.
So if you're an introvert, it'smaybe not for you.
SPEAKER_03 (36:51):
Before the pandemic, I realized how much I got out of
the house, sometimes just toescape the thoughts that we
could have when we're just byourself.
Exactly.
Then you're just, okay.
But one thing you mentioned isjournaling.
And journaling is something thathelps you focus and also kind of
(37:12):
review your day or whatever itis.
Tell me about that.
What do you do with yourjournaling?
I mean, I
SPEAKER_02 (37:20):
go through spurts of journaling.
Like, I don't want it to make itsound like I'm so good about it
and I do it every single day.
I don't.
But when I can set aside time todo it and actually make myself
do it, it is a nice way to justget whatever the mess is in my
head.
When I put it out on a page,it's like writing songs, too.
(37:44):
it helps get it out of my head.
And then it either just livesthere or it becomes a song or it
helps me sort of get to anotherplace with whatever the worry is
I have most of the time.
So it is helpful.
I mean, it's funny.
I've talked to people aboutjournaling and this is just
something that I wonder if otherpeople experience.
(38:06):
It's like, it's not totally easyto detach from it also being a
performance.
Like this is actually crazybecause you're like, what if
someone finds this and readsthis?
What are they going to say?
I can almost censor what I'mwriting in a journal sometimes
because what if I die andsomeone picks it up and reads it
and what are they going tothink?
And are they going to judge me?
I'm literally going to be dead.
(38:26):
Why do I care?
I
SPEAKER_03 (38:28):
just thought That was hilarious.
I seriously think that's the bigfear, like somebody breaking
into your diary.
That's what it is.
It's a diary.
I know.
And
SPEAKER_02 (38:39):
I can eventually get past that fear out of necessity
of needing to do it.
But yeah, every time I'm able towrite it down in some way, even
if it's just in my notes app,it's usually helpful in trying
to process it.
SPEAKER_03 (38:57):
Yeah, I do think
SPEAKER_02 (38:58):
that's true.
SPEAKER_03 (38:58):
It's funny how when something comes out of your
head, whether it's your words orwords on a piece of paper, that
you could stop thinking aboutit.
SPEAKER_02 (39:07):
Yes, you can kind of stop thinking about it.
I don't know if it makes youstop thinking about it entirely,
but at least helps you get to adifferent place with it.
So you're not obsessing over theone detail that you've been
playing on loop in your head forhowever long.
SPEAKER_03 (39:23):
You know, one thing I wanted to ask you about
perfectionism, because this is atheme that's come up with some
other musicians.
And I get like that myself.
Do you feel like you ever putthat on other people?
SPEAKER_02 (39:38):
Gosh, I feel like most of my perfectionism is all
directed at me.
I feel like I could probably cutother people a ton of slack and
be like, oh, it's fine.
You're only human.
Don't worry about it.
And then if I do some sort ofmisstep, it's like, how could
you do that?
You're an idiot.
(40:00):
All the bad talk is directed atme and all the pressure is put
on me.
to be perfect.
I don't know that I put that onother people unless it's someone
really, really close to me.
I don't know.
That's something to think aboutfor sure.
I'll be directed at myself,which is not good.
SPEAKER_03 (40:20):
Well, you want to treat yourself like your best
friend.
I'm trying to, but that's reallyhard.
I know because sometimes it'sautomatic or we've been doing it
for so long.
SPEAKER_02 (40:32):
Yeah, it's kind of like that blame thing.
Well, as long as there's someoneto blame, even if it's myself,
I'll take it.
SPEAKER_03 (40:40):
Well, Caitlin, you have been very open and honest.
Is there anything else that youwould like to say about mental
health or about your music?
SPEAKER_02 (40:48):
Gosh, I feel excited about the album and just excited
that people to get a chance tohopefully know me a little bit
more better.
deeply than they have before.
I'm excited to share these songsand yeah, you know, hopefully by
the end of this, I'll have somehaters.
Maybe I'll become one.
(41:09):
I get it.
I get it.
SPEAKER_03 (41:13):
Next up, we have part two of our interview with
Dr.
Adi Jaffe, a psychologist whostill speaks at his alma mater
of UCLA and is a nationallyrecognized expert on mental
health and addiction.
In part one of our interview,Dr.
Jaffe shared his own story andtechniques from his book, The
Abstinence Myth, a new approachfor overcoming addiction without
(41:34):
shame, judgment, or rules.
Now let's hear Dr.
Jaffe share more insight intolong-lasting recovery.
SPEAKER_00 (41:43):
All the addiction is is a coping strategy and a
symptom of the actual underlyingissue.
So if you keep addressingaddiction, The alcohol or the
gambling or the drugs or thesex, it's like playing
whack-a-mole.
Really, what you're getting atis a symptom.
And what we need to do is weneed to get honest.
Exploration is the first part ofwhat we do.
We explore why you're reallyhere.
(42:04):
So that can be earlydevelopmental issues.
It can be physical problems.
It can be trauma.
I think there are a lot ofenvironmental influences, right?
People are in troublingrelationships.
Explore why you're here.
One of our big models at Ignitedis F-Shame.
I'll use the PG version of it.
And the reason I say that iswhen people understand and
connect back to why they'reactually here, there's a lot of
(42:26):
shame that comes up.
I was running a group yesterdayand we talked about something
called ACEs, which is adversechildhood experiences.
People with more than fouradverse childhood experiences
have been shown to have a two tothree time greater likelihood of
struggling with severe mentalhealth and addiction issues
later on in life.
But it makes sense when youthink about it.
If you were sexually abused orphysically abused or lived in a
(42:49):
violent environment or werebullied heavily when you were
young, I don't doubt why youdevelop mental health and
addiction issues.
I understand them.
So we went through this in agroup, and I had about 25, 30
people in this group.
About half the people had 10 or11 of these experiences in their
childhood.
And you saw the impact in ourgroup of people realizing the
(43:11):
depths of the trauma that theyhad been through in life.
Now, some of these people havebeen to rehab before.
They've tried AA before.
They've been to therapy foryears.
But to have an assessment rightthere laid out in front of them,
we had these really emotionalconversations.
And the conversation went likethis.
Okay, now you know.
You know that trauma plays amajor part in your life.
(43:31):
And you have a list of thosethings.
If you want to fix yourdrinking, you've got to go fix
the trauma.
And it made so much more senseto a lot of these people than
what they had been trying to dofor years before, which was they
were trying to stop the drinkingand then go address the trauma.
But what happened is they wouldstop drinking and then have
panic attacks and anxiety, andthen they would drink again.
(43:53):
Everybody would say, well, whyyou drank?
Because you're an alcoholic.
So I think what we're doingright now at Ignited is we're
giving people a voice whereunlike what happened to me in
treatment and in therapy, theirlived experience and the reasons
why they are suffering come tothe forefront so they can deal
(44:13):
with those first and foremost.
And so what ends up happening isthe vast majority of people do
our work and they're excitedabout it.
They're happy about it.
Why?
Because it's giving them freedombefore asking them for anything.
SPEAKER_03 (44:26):
It sounds like the psychotherapy part of your
program really is more of thefocus, whereas kind of talking
about addiction it's like asymptom to the core problem and
the core problem being having todeal with issues which can be
like you said it could be traumabut it can also be something
biological let's say somethingphysical that's happening i know
(44:48):
like thyroid conditions cancause mood disorders uh
different hormonal changes cancause mood disorders you're
talking about labels that callshame And the thing is, is I
think because people may notunderstand about mood disorders
or about addiction, that peoplemight say, okay, I'm an addict,
(45:09):
but they might be sober for 28years.
And maybe that label isuncomfortable to wear for 28
years.
But I do think it's great thatyou're going...
to the core of the problembecause that's really where it
all starts.
And oftentimes doctors don'teven take the time to find out
what that is.
(45:29):
They just want to give you likea quick fix to
SPEAKER_00 (45:34):
fix the other symptom.
So for instance, you weretalking about physical aspects.
Like I found out thatHashimoto's low thyroid
activity, and I was coming to myprimary physician who I'd known
for years, by the way, and wassaying, look, I don't know
what's going on, but I wake upand I'm tired all day.
Even if I get eight hours ofsleep, I'm tired all day.
I have no motivation.
It took him three years to findthis low thyroid function, which
(45:57):
is, by the way, reallyupsetting.
You know, I was living with itbefore I came to him.
So four to five years that I'mliving, essentially feeling
depressed.
SPEAKER_03 (46:07):
Yes, and I totally agree with you because I had
hormonal issues.
Not one doctor or psychiatristtalked to me about that while I
was going through menopause.
They knew what my age was, neverbrought that up, and I said
nothing specifically sad ortraumatic has gone on in my life
(46:27):
currently or even so much in thepast.
I mean, so I was confused.
I had to play detective to dothat, and that's it.
It's like if you have thisthyroid condition, that's
causing you depression, all thecounseling in the world is not
going to make a differenceunless you find out what that
biological reason is.
SPEAKER_00 (46:47):
We talk about nutrition.
We talk about exercise andmovement.
We talk about thyroid and otherhormonal functions.
I think part of the big thingswe do for people is we help them
Stop having to play detective.
And we say, look, here are allthe things that we've seen
create an effect.
So like if you struggle withsleep, here are some of the
(47:08):
things that may be causing animpact here.
Do any of these fit?
If they fit, go do that work.
But some of it is nutrition.
You know, one of the craziestthings, and to this day, it
makes me laugh, right?
You'll go to an AA meeting andlike everybody's smoking and
everybody's drinking oreverybody's vaping.
No problem with that,apparently.
It's going to disturb people'ssleep.
It's going to cause themanxiety.
It's going to cause adrenalfatigue and make their body feel
(47:31):
tired all the time.
But that's fine.
Just go to another meeting.
And so I tell people all thetime, I say, look, if you
consume a lot of sugar, that'sgoing to cause mood
dysregulation for you.
So if you're feeling down andsad and distressed and upset,
play around with sugar intake.
(47:51):
Just because you just stoppedalcohol or you dropped alcohol
doesn't mean you have to takesomething else to fix those
aspects of your mood, right?
And so what you're saying is soright on in terms of the way
that we talk to people becausewe do the same with spirituality
and environment.
You know how many people I talkto who come to me for alcohol
issues?
And when we get into it, I findout they've been in an unhappy
(48:15):
marriage for 18 years.
And they're like, look, I'm analcoholic.
I don't know why I drink.
And I go, I know why you drink.
You drink because you've beenunhappy in your marriage for 18
years.
I'm not going to be able to fixyour drinking unless we fix your
marriage or you leave thisrelationship.
But people don't think aboutthis.
So that's not trauma.
Being in an unhappy marriage isnot traumatic per se, but it
(48:38):
causes stress and it causesanxiety.
It causes dissociation.
It causes massive environmentalstress.
So All these things, sometimesit's the first time because
oftentimes it's the partnerwho's telling this person to
stop drinking.
And so all of these aspects arethe things we present to our
people.
So what's beautiful about ourgroups is you'll have people
(49:01):
who...
fix their issue throughmedication and other people who
fix it because they got out of abad relationship and other
people who change jobs and otherpeople who are dealing with
their trauma.
They all did their own work, butwhat brings them together is
that they're focused on thesolution instead of what happens
in traditional recoveryoftentimes, which is constantly
focusing on the problem, right?
Hey, my name is this, I'm anaddict, and let me tell you
(49:24):
about how I got here and how badit was.
And for me, it's like, okay, Idon't need to dwell on the past.
Let's understand that we have aproblem and work forward and
make ourselves better.
SPEAKER_03 (49:33):
Yeah.
And also finding out what theproblem is, is a huge thing.
And there's a lot of trial anderror.
And then also a lot ofintrospection that sometimes
it's hard for people to kind oflook at themselves or even talk
about what happened in the pastthat they're still carrying.
But I do think that's a reallyimportant service because that
whole journey, that whole trialand error period to find out
(49:56):
what works for your body, whatworks for your lifestyle, what
works for your personality,takes a lot of time.
And that's the time that somepeople can lose their lives.
SPEAKER_00 (50:07):
100%.
And that's why I'm againstmaking people feel like if they
had a drink, they failed.
Whereas if they were sober, theysucceeded.
Because we know the vastmajority of people will slip up.
And while people who've beensober for a very long time tell
me, hey, you know, we don'tshame people who get into
relapse.
That's not what happens when youtalk to the people who are
(50:29):
actually relapsing.
They feel very much like they'rebeing shamed.
You know, go back to thebeginning of the line.
Reset your counter to zero.
And so what I always say is,look, if we're here to help,
then let's put the help first.
Let's not create requirementsfor help.
Let's not tell somebody, look, Iwill only help you if.
(50:50):
My argument at Ignite is verysimple.
And by the way, we're not freelike AA, but some of our
solutions are like$1.90 a day.
We try to make it as cheap ashumanly possible for us to be
able to offer this help becauseI totally agree.
We have to make it easy forpeople.
and then let them roll in.
And if they slip up, say, hey,what happened?
Tell us, let's just talk aboutit.
(51:10):
Explore, let's talk about whathappened, what went wrong so we
can get better and do betternext time.
SPEAKER_03 (51:16):
Yeah, it's sort of the principle of, you know, when
we learn how to do anything new,we make mistakes.
And as we make mistakes, wehopefully learn from them and
try to do something different tofinally get to the point where
you get to be healthy.
Now you have the Ignitedprogram, but you call it the
(51:37):
Ignited Hero program, which Ilike because it focuses on the
positive things that you'redoing and also understanding
that there could be slip-ups.
SPEAKER_00 (51:48):
I'll tell you the reason I call it the Hero
program.
When I listen to the stories ofsome of the people who made it
to our program, I what I try topoint out to them is you already
won.
Like the fact that you're evenhere right now and you're
working on yourself is already ahuge testament to how big of a
person you are.
The hero part is partiallyrecognizing the internal persona
(52:13):
that is within them and thatthey're just trying to uncover.
Because while everybody else hastalked down to them their entire
life, what I've noticed is a lotof these people are incredibly
resilient and full of grit Theywere born into circumstances or
they had experiences or theymade erroneous choices in the
middle of their life that ledthem down the wrong path.
(52:33):
But they're incredibly stronghuman beings that have a lot to
offer the world.
SPEAKER_03 (52:38):
Well, I'm glad you do that because I also have
something.
I'm going to show you my T-shirthere.
It's called Superhero.
We call the people that come onto the show, check your head
superheroes, because the thingis something like mood
disorders, which is often tiedto addiction.
These are silent struggles.
(52:59):
It's a battle.
It's a war that is won bysomebody who's still standing
there and looking for theiranswers.
But that war is the battle ofour lives.
And to win that, to even bealive, is the greatest battle of
your life.
SPEAKER_00 (53:21):
Well, the thing that sucks so much about stigma and
shame, which is why I fightagainst it so badly, is all
those things you mentioned, youunderstand the external
circumstances that are leadingto the problem.
Like if you have a bad marriage,there's something about the
partner, there's something aboutthe interaction.
You can see it happening.
But when it's in between yourears, you start believing
(53:42):
there's something deeply wrongwith you.
You start thinking of yourselfas a broken human being.
And I'm sorry if anybody'slistening right now and has this
sentiment for themselves.
You're not a broken human being.
You're imperfect, but newsflash,everybody's imperfect.
So this is one of the things Ilove about musicians.
(54:04):
But if you really listen to whata lot of the people you're
paying attention to are speakingand writing, it's about pain.
They're expressing things thatmost of us are uncomfortable
saying out loud, which is whymusic touches people so deeply,
is there is this emotionalconnection.
But now let's...
Let's extend that a little bitand say, well, why can't we all
(54:26):
become more expressive about thestruggles that we go through?
Why can't we all become braveand say, you know what?
I'm not going to hide.
I know that other people aroundme are struggling right now.
And by me pretending to beperfect, by me pretending to
have it all together, I'mactually exacerbating the
problem.
Thankfully, we now live in anage where a lot of people who
(54:47):
have celebrity, who have status,who have a voice, a loud and
large voice, have expressedsomething about their own
struggles or about the strugglesof those around them, because
that gets served as a beacon, aconnecting sort of anchor.
SPEAKER_03 (55:03):
Right.
I mean, that really is whatwe're trying to do with the
podcast, as well as providing alot of different solutions like
your program, because there's avariety of different mood
disorders.
There's a variety of differentaddictions and there's a variety
of different therapies andthings you can try.
But just to keep persistent, tofind the one that finally works
(55:24):
and to feel good about that, toreally congratulate yourself and
say, you know, I I'm like asurvivor and a thriver.
SPEAKER_00 (55:32):
So that is what we love about the work that we do
is we get to see these peoplewho came in broken and hopeless
and they leave or stay with us.
A lot of them stay and serve ascoaches or guides within our
community to new people to say,look, you can have anything you
want.
It's going to take some work.
It's going to requireexploration.
It's going to be a littleuncomfortable sometimes, but
(55:53):
you're going to come out on theother side so much happier and
so much more complete than youare right now.
SPEAKER_03 (55:58):
Well, what is the joy that you feel right now, now
that you look back from whereyou were and who you are today?
Because I really think thatthat's important for people to
realize that once you get to theother side, that there is a joy
and a contentment that is sodifferent from when you were
using.
So
SPEAKER_00 (56:19):
I have a practice of gratitude every morning.
And the number of things thatI'm grateful for and that bring
me joy would be hard to countnow.
I write three to four to five ofthem down a day.
But I have three amazingchildren.
I get to cuddle and read to mythree-year-old and listen to her
asking for me when she wants meinstead of her mom.
(56:40):
I get to go snowboarding duringthe winter with my boys, who
they love it.
I coach my son's soccer team.
I get to have conversations likethis and help hundreds and
thousands of people every yeararound addiction and some of the
same struggles I had.
I get to travel.
I get to read amazing books.
I get to eat amazing food.
I mean, there's so much to enjoyin my day to day.
(57:03):
The shift just moved from theold version of me and instead
moving towards a new place whereI can say to myself two things
at the same time.
I want to get better.
I want to learn more.
I want to do more in the world.
And I get to completely enjoythe present moment and what's
happening to me right now.
And that, you know, there's ahuge amount of joy and
(57:25):
contentment that I get from thatevery day.
SPEAKER_03 (57:28):
That's great to hear.
Well, Dr.
Jaffe, is there anything elsethat you'd like to say about
addiction or mental health orabout the Ignited program?
SPEAKER_00 (57:38):
I'll just say, look, if you're struggling right now,
let me just be very clear.
There's a solution out therethat'll work for you.
You may need to look a littleharder and you may need to dig a
little bit deeper than whateverybody else is talking about
to find the solution that isright for you.
If what I'm talking about soundsanywhere near familiar or
something that you'd want to tryout, we have the Ignited podcast
and that's spelled I-G-N-T-D.
(58:00):
And if you go to ignited.com,I-G-N-T-D.com, not only do we
give two weeks free of our helpAnd so much in the podcast and
so much support in that way.
We also have a free seven-daysober experiment that people can
take on to uncover some of theseunderlying reasons.
So that is videos where I walkyou through every single day of
(58:20):
how to get under the hood andunderstand what it is that I'm
talking about.
So that's completely free.
And in general, just reach out.
This is my purpose in life.
This is what I do now.
And so if there's anything thatI can do to help, just know you
never lose hope.
There's always hope that youwill find the set of tools that
will help you.
SPEAKER_03 (58:38):
A big thank you to our musical guest, Caitlin
Tarver, and our mental healthand addiction expert, Dr.
Adi Jaffe.
For more information on CaitlinTarver and to purchase her new
album, Subject to Change, visitCaitlinTarver.com.
And be sure to catch Caitlin ontour with Johnny Swim starting
December 7, 2021.
(58:58):
Follow Caitlin on our socials,at Caitlin Tarver and at Caitlin
Tarver Online, and stay tuned tolisten to a clip of Caitlin's
single, Shit Happens, at the endof our episode.
For more information on Dr.
Adi Jaffe, visit ignited.com,that's I-G-N-T-D dot com, and
follow Dr.
(59:19):
Jaffe on his socials, at Dr.
Adi Jaffe.
If you'd like to partner, raisefunds, or give feedback on the
podcast, email us atcheckyourheadpodcast at
gmail.com or visit us atcheckyourheadpodcast.com to find
free and affordable mental help.
So until next time, be brave,ask for help, and be persistent
(59:40):
in finding the mental help thatyou need.
SPEAKER_01 (59:44):
Sometimes shit just happens worse than you can
(01:00:07):
imagine.
SPEAKER_03 (01:00:13):
Check Your Head Podcast is kindly supported and
partnered with Sweet ReliefMusicians Fund, DBSA San Gabriel
Valley, Earshot Media, and LemonTree Studios in Los Angeles.
Visit checkyourheadpodcast.comwhere we have over 100 solutions
for mental health.
Be our friends on social mediaat Check Your Head Podcast.
(01:00:34):
Watch us on YouTube and supportus with a kind donation on
checkyourheadpodcast.com.
Check Your Head podcast issponsored by a 501c3 nonprofit
with all donations being taxdeductible.
Thank you for your support andthank you for listening.
Welcome to the Check Your Head podcast, the podcast
where notable musicians andexperts share their stories and
solutions for mental health andwellness.
I'm your host, Mari Fong, amusic journalist and life coach
for musicians, and November isthe month of Thanksgiving when
we show our thanks and gratitudeto those around us with our
(00:23):
words and our actions.
With Thanksgiving, we think offamily, but anyone can really be
our family if we let them intoour lives.
So let's make it a habit to letothers know how you feel, what
their friendship means to you,or why you love them.
Show them with your actions byspending time, helping out, and
being there for them.
(00:43):
Expressing my gratitude issomething I enjoy because it's a
meaningful way to brighten upsomeone's day.
So today I'd like to show you myappreciation to all the
listeners, guests, andsupporters of the Check Your
Head podcast.
I'm truly grateful for thisexperience, and I'm proud to say
that we're now in the top 3% ofpodcasts worldwide, and that is
(01:04):
all thanks to you.
Thank you for your reviews, yourfollows and likes on our
socials, YouTube views, andespecially for being part of the
positive difference of bettermental health for us all.
You are my Check Your Headsuperheroes.
Now to our featured guests.
You may have first seen thissinger-songwriter and actress on
(01:25):
the Nickelodeon series Big TimeRush or on the HBO series
Ballers, but her first taste ofmusical fame was co-writing
Cheryl Cole's number one UKsingle Crazy Stupid Love and
then released six EPs of her ownmusic before winning NBC's
Songland in 2019.
Today's musical guest is indiepop artist Caitlin Tarver, whose
(01:49):
album Subject to Change droppedon November 12, 2021, and we'll
play a clip of her single ShitHappens at the end of our
episode.
Caitlin shares her real-worldsolutions for dealing with the
anxiety and self-doubt thatcomes with her career, and how
she spills her moods into songslike You Don't Know, a song that
captured how it feels whenyou're not okay, and the many
(02:12):
songs on her new album filledwith emotional honesty and
vulnerability.
Next, we have part two of ourinterview with expert Dr.
Adi Jaffe, a Ph.D.
psychologist and author of thebook The Abstinence Myth.
Dr.
Jaffe shares the importance ofplaying detective when finding
the root causes of addiction andalso how therapy can be
(02:34):
essential to long-term recoveryand sobriety.
But first, let's hear KaitlynTarver share her story.
Kaitlyn, congratulations on yourupcoming album that's called
Subject to Change.
Some people know you as anactress, but you are also a
longtime singer-songwriter.
(02:54):
Mm-hmm.
And one thing I read that Ireally loved was that you wanted
to write songs currently thatmake people feel less crazy for
feeling how they feel.
And haven't we all gone throughtimes like that?
Haven't we?
You know, and I do believe thatalbums kind of represent a
chapter in our lives.
(03:15):
How do the songs on subject tochange sort of represent this
chapter of your life?
You know, I
SPEAKER_02 (03:22):
think even with what I was saying of making people
feel less crazy, I've just, inthe past few years, really been
drawn to art that is, you know,more vulnerable, more saying
things that are like...
maybe small things that havebeen in my head and things that
I don't really feel comfortablesaying out loud or wonder if I'm
(03:43):
allowed to say out loud.
And when you hear it, it justgives you such a sense of
comfort because you're like,okay, I'm not alone.
I'm not crazy.
I'm not the only one who feelsthis way.
And, you know, that's kind of anelementary concept, but...
I just got more and more drawnto this idea of trying to dig
deeper within myself and findthose things that I was thinking
(04:05):
and figure out how to say themout loud through my songs.
And I looked up to other artiststhat were doing that.
And so with this album inparticular, I started therapy
last summer.
So it helped just unlock a lotof I don't know, just the
courage to just put stuff outthere and into the songs that I
(04:25):
normally would have shied awayfrom.
And you know, I still feel likein a lot of ways, I'm just
starting to scratch the surfaceof this.
But I do feel like these songscapture a side of me that feels
a little more raw, if you will.
So yeah, it's Everything youcould imagine I'm feeling, I am
(04:46):
feeling, which is excitement,nerves across the board.
But yeah, it's happening.
No going back now.
SPEAKER_03 (04:55):
That's true.
And it takes a lot of bravery topeel back the layers.
And so I congratulate you onthat.
You also mentioned startingtherapy last summer.
So big props to you on thatalso.
What is it that's prompted youto start therapy?
SPEAKER_02 (05:12):
I mean, I've been in this industry essentially since
I was 13 years old.
And now I'm 31, so basicallyhalf my life.
And it was just a lot of what Iwas experiencing with...
trying to pursue this career andwhile also growing up and you
(05:33):
know graduating high school andthen moving to LA and then I got
married young and being a fewyears into a marriage and sort
of hitting that late 20s slumpof just like okay I'm old enough
to have made certain decisionsthat I am now can either look
(05:57):
back and be happy I did or lookback and be like, oh, I wish I
would have done that a littlebit differently.
And just kind of trying to makesense of the choices I have made
and how they affect my life andwhat I want to keep and what I
want to shift.
Just all that stuff that was alot of reevaluation of my life
of like, why am I doing this?
Do I want to still keep pursuingmusic?
(06:19):
Do I want to still keep pursuingacting?
In what way?
What do I even like about this?
Why am I doing it?
Am I just doing it for fame?
It was just all those questionsstarted coming up.
It's a lot of work to kind oftake stock of your life and be
like, okay, I feel a little outof sorts.
What am I going to do about it?
(06:40):
And for me, I put off therapyfor years because I was like
well I'm fine I'm just having amoody week because I didn't get
this part I auditioned for andwhatever I'll get over it and
then I think you realize yearspass and you're still feeling in
this funk and you're like well Igotta face it at some point or
(07:03):
another and then obviously throwa pandemic on top of it and that
was enough to make me make thecall
SPEAKER_03 (07:12):
Good for you.
I mean, it almost sounds likeyou've got to a point where you
really want to plan out the nextfew years of your life.
And you know, the 20s are reallyturbulent.
I think sometimes we just kindof go with the flow, not really
stopping to think, what do wereally want to do?
Because so much is coming at usand we have so much of this
(07:34):
energy, almost like nervousenergy.
Well, what did you discover nowthat you're in therapy about
SPEAKER_02 (07:40):
yourself?
It's interesting that you saythe 20s are turbulent because
they are.
But for me, I think I kind ofunconsciously was a person that
was like, I want to make all theright moves.
I want to plan my life out so Idon't experience any turbulence.
I am going to move to LA.
I'm going to do this career.
I'm going to get married.
(08:01):
I'm going to like check allthese boxes so that I don't have
any surprises that will throw meoff course.
And obviously that's just notrealistic for me unconsciously
just craving certainty cravingcontrol craving a path that felt
secure and all the while beingin a career that is none of
(08:26):
those things and also realizingthat life is none of those
things i think a big thing forme in the past few years and
even in going through therapy islike how much i want certainty
about things and I want solidground and I don't like unknown
and I don't like change and Idon't like when things throw me
off and life just kept doingthat that's a lot of what I
(08:49):
learned and honestly what thealbum is touching on and even
why I called it subject tochange is just sort of wanting
to learn how to be open tolife's uncertainty and realizing
that it's okay to not knoweverything or not be sure or not
have a mapped out path like it'sokay to make mistakes it's okay
(09:13):
to like not be a perfectionistlike all that kind of stuff I'm
you know trying to rework in mybrain and a lot of what I was
working through while makingthis album
SPEAKER_03 (09:25):
it comes with experience and with with
maturity yeah to realize thatyou know that we only have so
much Right.
Right.
(09:58):
And you know, you had a song.
It was called You Don't Know.
And that's the one that got 56million views.
And it was voted by ParadeMagazine as one of the
depression songs that will helpyou feel less alone.
And from that, can you remembersome of the comments or messages
(10:18):
that you received from your fansabout the song?
SPEAKER_02 (10:22):
My God, there's been so many at this point, which is
just so crazy.
It can be easy for me and allartists to kind of forget like
what we're all ultimately afteris to try and connect with
people and try to offer somesort of connection through our
(10:44):
art and what we write or say.
And it can get clouded by tryingto measure your success against
other people or like how manystreams or numbers or
popularity, you know.
I can get so overtaken withwanting all of these markers of
success and forgetting thatreally the marker of success
should be getting these messagesfrom fans that are like, this
(11:08):
song helped me make sense of myanxiety or my depression or
helped me feel less alone.
I mean, I've gotten hundreds andhundreds, even the comments on
the video, still to this day,they're still piling up of
people just saying how much it'shelped them it helps me to
(11:29):
continue to press into thatfeeling of trying to communicate
what that song is about which isessentially it's okay to feel
sadness to feel heaviness tofeel you know kind of these
quote unquote negative emotionslike We all feel those things
and it's okay to not just likegloss over them and put a
(11:51):
bandaid and present this versionof yourself that's happy,
perfect person.
That's what that song tappedinto was just, you know, there's
almost like a frustration in thelyrics of, hey, like, just let
me feel this for a second.
I'm not saying I want to livehere forever or that I should
live here forever, but I don'tknow.
That's kind of the sense that Iget when people talk to me about
(12:14):
it is like it helps them feelsomething in a way that maybe
helped it feel a little lessheavy.
So it's really meaningful.
SPEAKER_03 (12:24):
A lot of that song is about acceptance, acceptance
of the full range of emotionsthat we all have.
Because I do find that sometimesthere are certain people that
will only accept us when we havethe acceptable emotions,
according to them.
And when you you approach themand you're honest, they will be
(12:46):
like, well, snap out of this.
Or how could you feel that waywhen your life is going so good?
And all of these comments thatcan be really hurtful when
you're in a bad place.
And we all have certain people,special people in our lives
where we have that bond where wecan be our true selves.
(13:06):
Who is that for you?
And how did that trust bonddevelop?
SPEAKER_02 (13:12):
Gosh, I mean, I've always had a really supportive
family.
I got married young, so I'vebeen with my husband.
We've been married seven years.
We've been together for 11.
So, I mean, I started dating himwhen I was 20.
So we definitely have a prettydeep bond of acceptance, and
he's very encouraging of medoing exactly what I want to do
(13:35):
and saying exactly what I wantto say and putting my work out
there.
which I think has really helpedme have the confidence to keep
doing it.
And I feel very lucky.
I feel like I am surrounded by alot of people who allow me to be
myself and have these emotions.
(13:56):
You're right.
It does make a huge differencewhen you have that in your life
as opposed to not.
You just feel a lot safer tohave these messy emotions and be
able to kind of put it out thereand not, you know, be judged for
it or feel like you're too much.
I mean, a lot of reason of why Istarted therapy too, is like,
(14:16):
you can have someone that youpay to say these things too.
Cause yeah, eventually yourfamily's like, all right, yeah,
we get it enough.
It's hard.
But I think ultimately I do feellike I have their support, which
I'm really grateful for.
SPEAKER_03 (14:32):
You know, you have that song called You Can Fall
Apart Too.
Yeah.
And that's kind of what itreminds me of is this, the
ability to be able to fall apartto somebody and that they are
going to be there for you.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (14:48):
You know, that was honestly kind of about my
marriage and my relationship.
I felt like I was becoming theone that was always there
complaining or having these bigfeelings and putting them on to
him and expecting him to be ableto carry it.
And then realize having thismoment of like, oh, I want to be
(15:11):
that for you too.
I want to be able to make sureI'm a place that you can feel
safe to come to as well.
And I had to kind of think aboutthat and reassess how I was
unloading a lot of my emotionsall the time.
And maybe it wasn't even a Butwe also just have different
personalities.
And I think that was kind of thesentiment.
(15:31):
It's like a song about wantingto be a safe space for someone
or a safe place for someone toland.
Yeah, that's a special one tome.
SPEAKER_03 (15:42):
Well, you know, the one song I've been able to hear
from your new album, it's calledShit Happens.
Yes.
And that happens to all of us inour lives, sometimes on a daily
basis.
SPEAKER_02 (15:52):
Yep.
SPEAKER_03 (15:54):
There's a habit that happens is that we look for
blame.
SPEAKER_04 (15:57):
What
SPEAKER_03 (15:59):
do you think the danger is in doing that?
Looking for blame when things gowrong.
SPEAKER_02 (16:05):
Oh, man.
It can just be a habit.
It can be kind of like anunconscious thing.
It's like an attempt forcontrol.
It's an attempt for control.
okay, if I can figure out who toblame here, then I can put the
blame on them.
Therefore, this shitty thingthat happened makes sense.
(16:25):
So I don't feel like everythingis chaos or random.
It's one thing when it's like, Ispilled coffee on my shirt
earlier.
It's like, oh, shoot, you know,there's like these lighthearted,
every take kind of shit happensmoments.
And then There's tragic, awful,horrific experiences that humans
(16:48):
face that that's what can bereally challenging.
Like, well, who are you going toblame for this?
Because most things like thatdon't have anyone to blame.
And that's kind of the heart ofthe song is just talking about
that balance of, okay, is itreally going to make it better
if you find someone to blame?
Usually not.
(17:09):
For me, it doesn't.
I mean, oh, okay, I guess I knownow who to blame.
Is that really that helpful?
With the bigger kind of tragicevents in life, most of the
time, those have no explanation.
And anyone who tries to make itseem like it does is just
uncomfortable with the fact thatthat can happen, which I totally
(17:32):
connect to.
It's scary to think of thingsthat could happen or things that
will never make sense.
I feel like I've been chippingaway at this message since I
wrote You Don't Know, which Iwrote a long time ago.
It's sort of like this, hey,let's all just not try to gloss
over the hard parts of lifebecause ultimately they can be
(17:56):
healing if you face them.
I
SPEAKER_03 (17:57):
think there's also a bond that happens when we share
something really tough about ourlives with somebody.
And I feel sometimes that It'skind of a special moment when
someone trusts me to tell meabout that.
And when you're going throughsomething with somebody as
(18:18):
trying your best to help eachother, it's something that you
don't forget because you knowthat person has been with you
during the good times, which iseasy, and during the bad times,
which can be tough.
But that person was there.
They didn't go away.
And it's so easy to step away.
(18:40):
Oh
SPEAKER_02 (18:42):
yeah, for sure.
It is hard to make it throughthe times that are challenging
because when you go through ahard time, it's not like you can
guarantee you'll have a weekwhere you feel down and then
you'll snap back into your oldself.
I mean, some things linger foryears and I think that's really
(19:02):
uncomfortable.
It's really challenging to dealwith in yourself and with people
close to you But it is bonding,and it almost feels like the
point of life to be there foreach other.
SPEAKER_03 (19:16):
You started to do these Instagram live streams
during the pandemic, and they'vegotten really popular.
What was your initial purposefor coming up with this whole
idea?
Everyone
SPEAKER_02 (19:31):
was going live at the time.
You know, the pandemic hit, liketours were getting canceled.
Everything was going insane.
And everyone was like, let's golive and try to talk to each
other.
Oh, that could be fun.
I was putting some music out.
I was about to go on tour andthen that got canceled.
So it was also just something todo because everything came to a
(19:52):
screeching halt.
And then I kind of just keptdoing it because I was like,
well, this is kind of, fun forme I like getting to talk to
people and having a good timedoing this people seem to still
want to talk to me and peopleare watching it so I'm just
going to keep doing it but yeahit kind of became this really
cool outlet for me to talk aboutcreativity and music and I mean
(20:17):
some of them were really lightand fun the whole time some of
them got a little more in depthand I got to meet a lot of new
people by doing it too because Ieventually ran out of you know
friends It's like, oh, I wonderif this person I like their
music or like their writing orwhatever would do it.
And so I got to interview a lotof cool people, which ended up
(20:38):
in us, you know, now knowingeach other and kind of keeping
in touch, which has been whichhas been cool.
SPEAKER_03 (20:44):
I was reading somewhere that you were starting
to write more songs that have amessage, which, you know, shows
your depth.
I was wondering with theseInstagram live streams, can you
remember some of theconversations that had heavier
topics and what were thosetopics about?
I
SPEAKER_02 (21:02):
have a terrible memory, but I remember, I'm just
a huge fan of this author namedJedediah Jenkins.
We ended up having a really coolconversation and I was so
excited to get to talk to him.
And I feel like a lot of what hesaid was, What's kind of
touching on a lot of what we'vetalked about here so far, you
(21:26):
know, like no one's got itfigured out.
We're all just kind of learningas we go.
I feel like that's just apowerful thing to remember when
you're sort of getting locked ina comparison or feeling like
you're not quite where you wantto be or you want to get to a
(21:46):
certain place and you're hittingall these roadblocks.
Like it can just be a lot to getcaught up in.
And I felt like a lot of hiswriting was sort of touching on
a lot of these themes of, yeah,like no one's got to figure it
out.
We're all learning.
We're all in process.
We're all trying to figure itout, which I'm just always
really drawn to people that areopen like that and not super
(22:08):
certain with like, this is howit is.
This is how things work.
Sometimes
SPEAKER_03 (22:13):
we get competitive with other people.
And then sometimes we getcompetitive trying to reach the
goals that we've set forourselves, which may not even be
realistic without factoring inall of the obstacles along the
way.
And that could be frustrating.
Sometimes when we go throughthese obstacles, it's really
(22:34):
hard to hear things like, well,what did you learn from that?
Until it's way past that you'relike, okay, now I can finally
talk about that.
Totally.
But I do feel like, you know,sometimes these obstacles teach
us to go in a differentdirection that we may not have
expected to go to.
Oh,
SPEAKER_02 (22:54):
for sure.
I mean, I think that's such ahard part of life.
life is all the unexpectedthings that you weren't planning
on entering your path likeinevitably do and it can really
derail you or you can learn howto roll with it and go okay how
(23:18):
do i take this and let it teachme something and eventually you
end up in a place totallydifferent that you weren't
expecting, but that is maybemore rewarding than the thing
you had set out to do.
I'm really trying to remainopen.
I think it's so easy to have aone-track mind and be like, this
(23:41):
is what I'm after, this is whatI'm trying to accomplish, and
I'm going to do anything I canto get there.
And yeah, you get competitive,you get obsessed with these very
specific markers, and theynever...
feel as good as you thinkthey're going to feel.
And then you get there andyou're like, I did it.
And then you're like, what'snext?
(24:01):
For sure.
Or you don't get those markersand it's really disappointing
and it makes you really down onyourself and have to deal with
those emotions coming up andthese feelings of inadequacy and
self-doubt.
It's funny what you said.
It reminded me, like I alwaysget a little frustrated with
People coming on and talkingabout their success stories, you
(24:24):
know, everyone comes on and Ididn't think I was going to get
to this point.
And then right when I gave up, Igot it.
And it's just sort of createsthis feeling of, wait, okay, so
what?
It's always easier in hindsightto like share your success
stories.
I think in general, thingsrarely turn out exactly how you
(24:45):
expect they're going to.
And that can be reallydisappointing and really hard to
deal with.
And I think it's hard to talkabout because it's like, well,
things aren't going bad.
They're just different than whatI thought.
And it's hard to know how todeal with it.
SPEAKER_03 (25:00):
Yeah, just having the flexibility to kind of go
with what's going on and maybetry to turn it in your favor.
It comes with maturity and withexperience.
Yeah.
One thing you mentioned wasappearances.
And sometimes on social media,it's like the perfect place
where people kind of put onappearances, making it look like
(25:24):
everything is perfect.
Right.
But one thing I'm wondering,especially from somebody who's
been in music and also who'sbeen an actress, sometimes the
comments can really be hurtfuland come out of left field.
How do you manage that?
And what is your attitude towardnegative social media comments?
(25:47):
You know, I
SPEAKER_02 (25:48):
feel pretty lucky so far.
I don't feel like that's been ahuge part of my story.
There have definitely beennegative comments.
And I am a huge baby when theyhappen and I get very hurt and I
will literally treat it as ifthis person has known me my
(26:08):
whole life and what they'resaying holds so much weight and
I can be like what they don'teven know me and it will just
stick in your brain so long butthat's something that I have not
had to deal with a lot,thankfully, because I don't deal
with that many haters.
(26:29):
I've gotten the occasional haterand it has ruined my week.
So I'll probably really fallapart when I start getting real
haters.
No, I'm kidding.
I'm kidding.
But yeah, I hear biggercelebrities talk about haters
and negative comments and Itreally is so hurtful.
(26:53):
I do think it's just sointeresting how some people can
get behind a screen and saythings so mean and negative
towards someone they've nevermet.
Even if they are famous, it'scool for celebrities to come out
and be like, hey, we areactually just human beings and
(27:13):
we are very fragile andsensitive just like you are.
So this is hurtful.
SPEAKER_03 (27:21):
Yeah, I think you're right.
People don't think maybe thatperson is going to read it and
it's maybe their way of ventingin some way, but it could be
very harsh because it'scompletely unfiltered.
And when we talk with peoplelike on a regular normal basis,
no one will say something likewhat is said in social media.
(27:41):
So it's kind of just anunrealistic medium,
SPEAKER_02 (27:46):
I suppose.
You have to kind of do your ownassessment of what you can
handle.
Because for me, and I'm not goodat this, by the way, I hardly
put any restrictions on itbecause I'm addicted.
But when I wake up and I startscrolling and I see something
that set off something in methat's made me now feel bad
about myself.
(28:07):
And then I'll take that, I'lltry to brush it off, but I'll
sort of be irritated.
And I'll be like, why am Iirritated?
It's always kind of tracing backto something that I saw that
then made me compare myself tothem and compare my path to
them.
And now I'm somehow thinkingthat my whole trajectory is
doomed.
And I'm like, what?
(28:28):
How did this happen?
You know, I'm exaggeratingslightly, but it is such a hard
thing.
thing to know how to balance andI mean I can't imagine growing
up on it for my whole life likekids today having to deal with
social media and the effects ofit and the ramifications it's a
lot for me to deal with as anadult
SPEAKER_03 (28:50):
you know George Clooney said something once he
said his father said You know,when they say really, really
great things about you, justkind of take that with a grain
of salt.
And then on the flip side, ifpeople say like really horrible,
horrible things about you, justtake it with a grain of salt.
You know, because, yeah, maybeyou're like somewhere in the
middle.
(29:11):
Yeah, exactly.
Just try to have those comments,maybe not take them as seriously
as we could sometimes feel them.
Right, yeah, for sure.
One thing you said was youtalked about spiraling and
usually can be compared to whenyou talk about anxiety.
SPEAKER_04 (29:31):
And
SPEAKER_03 (29:32):
then there's also depression.
Do you feel like you haveexperienced either or any of
those during your life orcareer?
SPEAKER_02 (29:40):
Yeah, I think so.
I think definitely.
Yeah.
recognizing that habit ofspiraling and creating
scenarios, naming that asanxiety was helpful for me
because sometimes the perceptionwith mental health, with
anxiety, with depression, it canbe like very real for some
(30:00):
people like depression.
I can't, I can't get out of bed.
I have no motivation.
You know, These very obvioussigns and same with anxiety.
It's like I have panic attacks,which means I can't breathe.
So I wasn't relating to any ofthose.
So I was like, well, I guess Idon't deal with anxiety, but
then sort of seeing the patternsin my life.
(30:23):
Oh, like I tend to do a lot ofprojecting what is going to
happen in the future and tryingto find all the ways that it's
going to go wrong or it's goingto be hard or I'm not going to
get what I want.
You know, I was experiencinganxiety and I still do.
Being like, oh no, that isanxiety was helpful for me
(30:44):
because it was...
oh, okay, that's not just a badday.
That is a form of anxiety.
Spiraling and going out ofcontrol in your head into all
these scenarios and all of asudden you're convinced that all
this bad stuff is going tohappen or you've made every
wrong choice in your past and ifyou would have done it
differently, you would haveended up somewhere differently.
(31:05):
All those kind of mental thingsthat I deal with I definitely
view as anxiety and it's hard toget a handle on it.
It's interesting that you saythat about musicians dealing
with this because this issomething I've been talking with
friends about lately is I wantto put everything I have into
(31:28):
the music and to the songs andto my work and create something
that I feel great about and todo that you have to go so far
and put all of your energy andyou know bleed for the art and
then you're supposed to just letit come out and okay well hands
(31:53):
off like now I just detach fromall of that and I just am fine
with whatever happens I'm easybreezy like I don't even care
that's so unrealistic I don'tunderstand and now you're
getting an earful of me in atherapy session but like It's
(32:13):
just interesting because so muchof the music we love and the art
we love came from, you know,putting a lot of hours, a lot of
work, a lot of tears and sweatand all of the stuff.
And you're kind of offering upyour heart on a platter for
everyone to have an opinionabout.
(32:34):
I mean, it's hard to talk aboutthis even now.
I'm like, oh, wow, wow, hardlife.
I'm just, I'm getting into thehead of a listener being like,
oh oh what a tough life you haveto make music
SPEAKER_03 (32:48):
but you know it's it's it is tough that is the
misconception that from theoutside people say oh well well
look at you how sad but it'stough because you know I used to
interview also for film andactors and actresses, and
(33:08):
oftentimes it almost soundedlike they had more of a prepared
speech about what the movie'sabout, their character.
But with music, it wasdifferent.
Music is every part of that isyou.
The lyrics, the melodies, thestage performance, everything.
You are laying yourself bare.
And it means everything to you.
(33:28):
And that's why I loveinterviewing musicians because
of that.
But on the flip side, whenthings don't work out,
especially if you're like aperfectionist, then it hits a
little harder, right?
It hits harder.
It's so personal because you'relike, oh, you
SPEAKER_02 (33:46):
hate me.
All of me you hate.
So thanks so much.
No, it's a hard thing to handleat every level.
Maybe you've reached the heightof success and you played this
arena and you're like, wow, Ireally did it.
I think there's still probably,and if not even more, of a
(34:09):
nagging feeling of just like,what now that's just kind of
always there even if you're nota musician even if you're a
person i just think that's sucha human thing with music and
making something and putting itout there and wanting it to be
received in a certain way andand then if it's not yeah it's
(34:30):
hard not to take that personallywell
SPEAKER_03 (34:34):
i'm glad that you don't have any haters
SPEAKER_02 (34:37):
though
SPEAKER_03 (34:39):
So our podcast also is about solutions.
You talked about therapy, whichis really good.
But what are some things thatyou do on a daily basis for
self-care, for your mentalhealth?
SPEAKER_02 (34:52):
I am a very extroverted person.
I get a lot of...
comfort out of talking tofriends, hanging out, going out
for a drink, going out for adinner, hosting a party, having
people over.
That, to me, I've realizedbecause I was like, yeah, what
(35:12):
is self-care for me?
Do I want to go get my nailsdone?
Not really.
Do I want to get a massage?
I mean, sure, but I don't reallywant to do it.
A lot of times what I wanted wasto hang out with people and to
remember Oh, yeah, my music,work, all that stress is not the
end-all be-all in my life.
And my life is about the peoplein it and being there for them
(35:33):
and just sort of having realpeople in front of me in real
life and reminding myself ofthat helps me snap out of that
spiral sometimes of what's goingto happen?
What am I doing?
It just helps me get out of myhead and into...
just enjoying life.
(35:54):
So that's a lot of what I do.
Or I'll go on a walk.
I'll get out of the house.
I mean, it's so hard not to talkabout pandemic life because
that's been our last year and ahalf, which really threw a
wrench into being able to hangout with people.
So as you can imagine, it waspretty tough.
But going on long walks, I'lllisten to a podcast or I'll
(36:17):
listen to music or I'll journal.
Anything that can get me out ofmy head is pretty helpful.
And a lot of times that meanseither processing it out loud
with someone who I trust orphysically moving my body.
I don't get a ton of relief frombeing still.
(36:37):
Not that I don't like a massageor a bath, but those are some
things I like to try.
But I'm also an extrovertedperson.
So if you're an introvert, it'smaybe not for you.
SPEAKER_03 (36:51):
Before the pandemic, I realized how much I got out of
the house, sometimes just toescape the thoughts that we
could have when we're just byourself.
Exactly.
Then you're just, okay.
But one thing you mentioned isjournaling.
And journaling is something thathelps you focus and also kind of
(37:12):
review your day or whatever itis.
Tell me about that.
What do you do with yourjournaling?
I mean, I
SPEAKER_02 (37:20):
go through spurts of journaling.
Like, I don't want it to make itsound like I'm so good about it
and I do it every single day.
I don't.
But when I can set aside time todo it and actually make myself
do it, it is a nice way to justget whatever the mess is in my
head.
When I put it out on a page,it's like writing songs, too.
(37:44):
it helps get it out of my head.
And then it either just livesthere or it becomes a song or it
helps me sort of get to anotherplace with whatever the worry is
I have most of the time.
So it is helpful.
I mean, it's funny.
I've talked to people aboutjournaling and this is just
something that I wonder if otherpeople experience.
(38:06):
It's like, it's not totally easyto detach from it also being a
performance.
Like this is actually crazybecause you're like, what if
someone finds this and readsthis?
What are they going to say?
I can almost censor what I'mwriting in a journal sometimes
because what if I die andsomeone picks it up and reads it
and what are they going tothink?
And are they going to judge me?
I'm literally going to be dead.
(38:26):
Why do I care?
I
SPEAKER_03 (38:28):
just thought That was hilarious.
I seriously think that's the bigfear, like somebody breaking
into your diary.
That's what it is.
It's a diary.
I know.
And
SPEAKER_02 (38:39):
I can eventually get past that fear out of necessity
of needing to do it.
But yeah, every time I'm able towrite it down in some way, even
if it's just in my notes app,it's usually helpful in trying
to process it.
SPEAKER_03 (38:57):
Yeah, I do think
SPEAKER_02 (38:58):
that's true.
SPEAKER_03 (38:58):
It's funny how when something comes out of your
head, whether it's your words orwords on a piece of paper, that
you could stop thinking aboutit.
SPEAKER_02 (39:07):
Yes, you can kind of stop thinking about it.
I don't know if it makes youstop thinking about it entirely,
but at least helps you get to adifferent place with it.
So you're not obsessing over theone detail that you've been
playing on loop in your head forhowever long.
SPEAKER_03 (39:23):
You know, one thing I wanted to ask you about
perfectionism, because this is atheme that's come up with some
other musicians.
And I get like that myself.
Do you feel like you ever putthat on other people?
SPEAKER_02 (39:38):
Gosh, I feel like most of my perfectionism is all
directed at me.
I feel like I could probably cutother people a ton of slack and
be like, oh, it's fine.
You're only human.
Don't worry about it.
And then if I do some sort ofmisstep, it's like, how could
you do that?
You're an idiot.
(40:00):
All the bad talk is directed atme and all the pressure is put
on me.
to be perfect.
I don't know that I put that onother people unless it's someone
really, really close to me.
I don't know.
That's something to think aboutfor sure.
I'll be directed at myself,which is not good.
SPEAKER_03 (40:20):
Well, you want to treat yourself like your best
friend.
I'm trying to, but that's reallyhard.
I know because sometimes it'sautomatic or we've been doing it
for so long.
SPEAKER_02 (40:32):
Yeah, it's kind of like that blame thing.
Well, as long as there's someoneto blame, even if it's myself,
I'll take it.
SPEAKER_03 (40:40):
Well, Caitlin, you have been very open and honest.
Is there anything else that youwould like to say about mental
health or about your music?
SPEAKER_02 (40:48):
Gosh, I feel excited about the album and just excited
that people to get a chance tohopefully know me a little bit
more better.
deeply than they have before.
I'm excited to share these songsand yeah, you know, hopefully by
the end of this, I'll have somehaters.
Maybe I'll become one.
(41:09):
I get it.
I get it.
SPEAKER_03 (41:13):
Next up, we have part two of our interview with
Dr.
Adi Jaffe, a psychologist whostill speaks at his alma mater
of UCLA and is a nationallyrecognized expert on mental
health and addiction.
In part one of our interview,Dr.
Jaffe shared his own story andtechniques from his book, The
Abstinence Myth, a new approachfor overcoming addiction without
(41:34):
shame, judgment, or rules.
Now let's hear Dr.
Jaffe share more insight intolong-lasting recovery.
SPEAKER_00 (41:43):
All the addiction is is a coping strategy and a
symptom of the actual underlyingissue.
So if you keep addressingaddiction, The alcohol or the
gambling or the drugs or thesex, it's like playing
whack-a-mole.
Really, what you're getting atis a symptom.
And what we need to do is weneed to get honest.
Exploration is the first part ofwhat we do.
We explore why you're reallyhere.
(42:04):
So that can be earlydevelopmental issues.
It can be physical problems.
It can be trauma.
I think there are a lot ofenvironmental influences, right?
People are in troublingrelationships.
Explore why you're here.
One of our big models at Ignitedis F-Shame.
I'll use the PG version of it.
And the reason I say that iswhen people understand and
connect back to why they'reactually here, there's a lot of
(42:26):
shame that comes up.
I was running a group yesterdayand we talked about something
called ACEs, which is adversechildhood experiences.
People with more than fouradverse childhood experiences
have been shown to have a two tothree time greater likelihood of
struggling with severe mentalhealth and addiction issues
later on in life.
But it makes sense when youthink about it.
If you were sexually abused orphysically abused or lived in a
(42:49):
violent environment or werebullied heavily when you were
young, I don't doubt why youdevelop mental health and
addiction issues.
I understand them.
So we went through this in agroup, and I had about 25, 30
people in this group.
About half the people had 10 or11 of these experiences in their
childhood.
And you saw the impact in ourgroup of people realizing the
(43:11):
depths of the trauma that theyhad been through in life.
Now, some of these people havebeen to rehab before.
They've tried AA before.
They've been to therapy foryears.
But to have an assessment rightthere laid out in front of them,
we had these really emotionalconversations.
And the conversation went likethis.
Okay, now you know.
You know that trauma plays amajor part in your life.
(43:31):
And you have a list of thosethings.
If you want to fix yourdrinking, you've got to go fix
the trauma.
And it made so much more senseto a lot of these people than
what they had been trying to dofor years before, which was they
were trying to stop the drinkingand then go address the trauma.
But what happened is they wouldstop drinking and then have
panic attacks and anxiety, andthen they would drink again.
(43:53):
Everybody would say, well, whyyou drank?
Because you're an alcoholic.
So I think what we're doingright now at Ignited is we're
giving people a voice whereunlike what happened to me in
treatment and in therapy, theirlived experience and the reasons
why they are suffering come tothe forefront so they can deal
(44:13):
with those first and foremost.
And so what ends up happening isthe vast majority of people do
our work and they're excitedabout it.
They're happy about it.
Why?
Because it's giving them freedombefore asking them for anything.
SPEAKER_03 (44:26):
It sounds like the psychotherapy part of your
program really is more of thefocus, whereas kind of talking
about addiction it's like asymptom to the core problem and
the core problem being having todeal with issues which can be
like you said it could be traumabut it can also be something
biological let's say somethingphysical that's happening i know
(44:48):
like thyroid conditions cancause mood disorders uh
different hormonal changes cancause mood disorders you're
talking about labels that callshame And the thing is, is I
think because people may notunderstand about mood disorders
or about addiction, that peoplemight say, okay, I'm an addict,
(45:09):
but they might be sober for 28years.
And maybe that label isuncomfortable to wear for 28
years.
But I do think it's great thatyou're going...
to the core of the problembecause that's really where it
all starts.
And oftentimes doctors don'teven take the time to find out
what that is.
(45:29):
They just want to give you likea quick fix to
SPEAKER_00 (45:34):
fix the other symptom.
So for instance, you weretalking about physical aspects.
Like I found out thatHashimoto's low thyroid
activity, and I was coming to myprimary physician who I'd known
for years, by the way, and wassaying, look, I don't know
what's going on, but I wake upand I'm tired all day.
Even if I get eight hours ofsleep, I'm tired all day.
I have no motivation.
It took him three years to findthis low thyroid function, which
(45:57):
is, by the way, reallyupsetting.
You know, I was living with itbefore I came to him.
So four to five years that I'mliving, essentially feeling
depressed.
SPEAKER_03 (46:07):
Yes, and I totally agree with you because I had
hormonal issues.
Not one doctor or psychiatristtalked to me about that while I
was going through menopause.
They knew what my age was, neverbrought that up, and I said
nothing specifically sad ortraumatic has gone on in my life
(46:27):
currently or even so much in thepast.
I mean, so I was confused.
I had to play detective to dothat, and that's it.
It's like if you have thisthyroid condition, that's
causing you depression, all thecounseling in the world is not
going to make a differenceunless you find out what that
biological reason is.
SPEAKER_00 (46:47):
We talk about nutrition.
We talk about exercise andmovement.
We talk about thyroid and otherhormonal functions.
I think part of the big thingswe do for people is we help them
Stop having to play detective.
And we say, look, here are allthe things that we've seen
create an effect.
So like if you struggle withsleep, here are some of the
(47:08):
things that may be causing animpact here.
Do any of these fit?
If they fit, go do that work.
But some of it is nutrition.
You know, one of the craziestthings, and to this day, it
makes me laugh, right?
You'll go to an AA meeting andlike everybody's smoking and
everybody's drinking oreverybody's vaping.
No problem with that,apparently.
It's going to disturb people'ssleep.
It's going to cause themanxiety.
It's going to cause adrenalfatigue and make their body feel
(47:31):
tired all the time.
But that's fine.
Just go to another meeting.
And so I tell people all thetime, I say, look, if you
consume a lot of sugar, that'sgoing to cause mood
dysregulation for you.
So if you're feeling down andsad and distressed and upset,
play around with sugar intake.
(47:51):
Just because you just stoppedalcohol or you dropped alcohol
doesn't mean you have to takesomething else to fix those
aspects of your mood, right?
And so what you're saying is soright on in terms of the way
that we talk to people becausewe do the same with spirituality
and environment.
You know how many people I talkto who come to me for alcohol
issues?
And when we get into it, I findout they've been in an unhappy
(48:15):
marriage for 18 years.
And they're like, look, I'm analcoholic.
I don't know why I drink.
And I go, I know why you drink.
You drink because you've beenunhappy in your marriage for 18
years.
I'm not going to be able to fixyour drinking unless we fix your
marriage or you leave thisrelationship.
But people don't think aboutthis.
So that's not trauma.
Being in an unhappy marriage isnot traumatic per se, but it
(48:38):
causes stress and it causesanxiety.
It causes dissociation.
It causes massive environmentalstress.
So All these things, sometimesit's the first time because
oftentimes it's the partnerwho's telling this person to
stop drinking.
And so all of these aspects arethe things we present to our
people.
So what's beautiful about ourgroups is you'll have people
(49:01):
who...
fix their issue throughmedication and other people who
fix it because they got out of abad relationship and other
people who change jobs and otherpeople who are dealing with
their trauma.
They all did their own work, butwhat brings them together is
that they're focused on thesolution instead of what happens
in traditional recoveryoftentimes, which is constantly
focusing on the problem, right?
Hey, my name is this, I'm anaddict, and let me tell you
(49:24):
about how I got here and how badit was.
And for me, it's like, okay, Idon't need to dwell on the past.
Let's understand that we have aproblem and work forward and
make ourselves better.
SPEAKER_03 (49:33):
Yeah.
And also finding out what theproblem is, is a huge thing.
And there's a lot of trial anderror.
And then also a lot ofintrospection that sometimes
it's hard for people to kind oflook at themselves or even talk
about what happened in the pastthat they're still carrying.
But I do think that's a reallyimportant service because that
whole journey, that whole trialand error period to find out
(49:56):
what works for your body, whatworks for your lifestyle, what
works for your personality,takes a lot of time.
And that's the time that somepeople can lose their lives.
SPEAKER_00 (50:07):
100%.
And that's why I'm againstmaking people feel like if they
had a drink, they failed.
Whereas if they were sober, theysucceeded.
Because we know the vastmajority of people will slip up.
And while people who've beensober for a very long time tell
me, hey, you know, we don'tshame people who get into
relapse.
That's not what happens when youtalk to the people who are
(50:29):
actually relapsing.
They feel very much like they'rebeing shamed.
You know, go back to thebeginning of the line.
Reset your counter to zero.
And so what I always say is,look, if we're here to help,
then let's put the help first.
Let's not create requirementsfor help.
Let's not tell somebody, look, Iwill only help you if.
(50:50):
My argument at Ignite is verysimple.
And by the way, we're not freelike AA, but some of our
solutions are like$1.90 a day.
We try to make it as cheap ashumanly possible for us to be
able to offer this help becauseI totally agree.
We have to make it easy forpeople.
and then let them roll in.
And if they slip up, say, hey,what happened?
Tell us, let's just talk aboutit.
(51:10):
Explore, let's talk about whathappened, what went wrong so we
can get better and do betternext time.
SPEAKER_03 (51:16):
Yeah, it's sort of the principle of, you know, when
we learn how to do anything new,we make mistakes.
And as we make mistakes, wehopefully learn from them and
try to do something different tofinally get to the point where
you get to be healthy.
Now you have the Ignitedprogram, but you call it the
(51:37):
Ignited Hero program, which Ilike because it focuses on the
positive things that you'redoing and also understanding
that there could be slip-ups.
SPEAKER_00 (51:48):
I'll tell you the reason I call it the Hero
program.
When I listen to the stories ofsome of the people who made it
to our program, I what I try topoint out to them is you already
won.
Like the fact that you're evenhere right now and you're
working on yourself is already ahuge testament to how big of a
person you are.
The hero part is partiallyrecognizing the internal persona
(52:13):
that is within them and thatthey're just trying to uncover.
Because while everybody else hastalked down to them their entire
life, what I've noticed is a lotof these people are incredibly
resilient and full of grit Theywere born into circumstances or
they had experiences or theymade erroneous choices in the
middle of their life that ledthem down the wrong path.
(52:33):
But they're incredibly stronghuman beings that have a lot to
offer the world.
SPEAKER_03 (52:38):
Well, I'm glad you do that because I also have
something.
I'm going to show you my T-shirthere.
It's called Superhero.
We call the people that come onto the show, check your head
superheroes, because the thingis something like mood
disorders, which is often tiedto addiction.
These are silent struggles.
(52:59):
It's a battle.
It's a war that is won bysomebody who's still standing
there and looking for theiranswers.
But that war is the battle ofour lives.
And to win that, to even bealive, is the greatest battle of
your life.
SPEAKER_00 (53:21):
Well, the thing that sucks so much about stigma and
shame, which is why I fightagainst it so badly, is all
those things you mentioned, youunderstand the external
circumstances that are leadingto the problem.
Like if you have a bad marriage,there's something about the
partner, there's something aboutthe interaction.
You can see it happening.
But when it's in between yourears, you start believing
(53:42):
there's something deeply wrongwith you.
You start thinking of yourselfas a broken human being.
And I'm sorry if anybody'slistening right now and has this
sentiment for themselves.
You're not a broken human being.
You're imperfect, but newsflash,everybody's imperfect.
So this is one of the things Ilove about musicians.
(54:04):
But if you really listen to whata lot of the people you're
paying attention to are speakingand writing, it's about pain.
They're expressing things thatmost of us are uncomfortable
saying out loud, which is whymusic touches people so deeply,
is there is this emotionalconnection.
But now let's...
Let's extend that a little bitand say, well, why can't we all
(54:26):
become more expressive about thestruggles that we go through?
Why can't we all become braveand say, you know what?
I'm not going to hide.
I know that other people aroundme are struggling right now.
And by me pretending to beperfect, by me pretending to
have it all together, I'mactually exacerbating the
problem.
Thankfully, we now live in anage where a lot of people who
(54:47):
have celebrity, who have status,who have a voice, a loud and
large voice, have expressedsomething about their own
struggles or about the strugglesof those around them, because
that gets served as a beacon, aconnecting sort of anchor.
SPEAKER_03 (55:03):
Right.
I mean, that really is whatwe're trying to do with the
podcast, as well as providing alot of different solutions like
your program, because there's avariety of different mood
disorders.
There's a variety of differentaddictions and there's a variety
of different therapies andthings you can try.
But just to keep persistent, tofind the one that finally works
(55:24):
and to feel good about that, toreally congratulate yourself and
say, you know, I I'm like asurvivor and a thriver.
SPEAKER_00 (55:32):
So that is what we love about the work that we do
is we get to see these peoplewho came in broken and hopeless
and they leave or stay with us.
A lot of them stay and serve ascoaches or guides within our
community to new people to say,look, you can have anything you
want.
It's going to take some work.
It's going to requireexploration.
It's going to be a littleuncomfortable sometimes, but
(55:53):
you're going to come out on theother side so much happier and
so much more complete than youare right now.
SPEAKER_03 (55:58):
Well, what is the joy that you feel right now, now
that you look back from whereyou were and who you are today?
Because I really think thatthat's important for people to
realize that once you get to theother side, that there is a joy
and a contentment that is sodifferent from when you were
using.
So
SPEAKER_00 (56:19):
I have a practice of gratitude every morning.
And the number of things thatI'm grateful for and that bring
me joy would be hard to countnow.
I write three to four to five ofthem down a day.
But I have three amazingchildren.
I get to cuddle and read to mythree-year-old and listen to her
asking for me when she wants meinstead of her mom.
(56:40):
I get to go snowboarding duringthe winter with my boys, who
they love it.
I coach my son's soccer team.
I get to have conversations likethis and help hundreds and
thousands of people every yeararound addiction and some of the
same struggles I had.
I get to travel.
I get to read amazing books.
I get to eat amazing food.
I mean, there's so much to enjoyin my day to day.
(57:03):
The shift just moved from theold version of me and instead
moving towards a new place whereI can say to myself two things
at the same time.
I want to get better.
I want to learn more.
I want to do more in the world.
And I get to completely enjoythe present moment and what's
happening to me right now.
And that, you know, there's ahuge amount of joy and
(57:25):
contentment that I get from thatevery day.
SPEAKER_03 (57:28):
That's great to hear.
Well, Dr.
Jaffe, is there anything elsethat you'd like to say about
addiction or mental health orabout the Ignited program?
SPEAKER_00 (57:38):
I'll just say, look, if you're struggling right now,
let me just be very clear.
There's a solution out therethat'll work for you.
You may need to look a littleharder and you may need to dig a
little bit deeper than whateverybody else is talking about
to find the solution that isright for you.
If what I'm talking about soundsanywhere near familiar or
something that you'd want to tryout, we have the Ignited podcast
and that's spelled I-G-N-T-D.
(58:00):
And if you go to ignited.com,I-G-N-T-D.com, not only do we
give two weeks free of our helpAnd so much in the podcast and
so much support in that way.
We also have a free seven-daysober experiment that people can
take on to uncover some of theseunderlying reasons.
So that is videos where I walkyou through every single day of
(58:20):
how to get under the hood andunderstand what it is that I'm
talking about.
So that's completely free.
And in general, just reach out.
This is my purpose in life.
This is what I do now.
And so if there's anything thatI can do to help, just know you
never lose hope.
There's always hope that youwill find the set of tools that
will help you.
SPEAKER_03 (58:38):
A big thank you to our musical guest, Caitlin
Tarver, and our mental healthand addiction expert, Dr.
Adi Jaffe.
For more information on CaitlinTarver and to purchase her new
album, Subject to Change, visitCaitlinTarver.com.
And be sure to catch Caitlin ontour with Johnny Swim starting
December 7, 2021.
(58:58):
Follow Caitlin on our socials,at Caitlin Tarver and at Caitlin
Tarver Online, and stay tuned tolisten to a clip of Caitlin's
single, Shit Happens, at the endof our episode.
For more information on Dr.
Adi Jaffe, visit ignited.com,that's I-G-N-T-D dot com, and
follow Dr.
(59:19):
Jaffe on his socials, at Dr.
Adi Jaffe.
If you'd like to partner, raisefunds, or give feedback on the
podcast, email us atcheckyourheadpodcast at
gmail.com or visit us atcheckyourheadpodcast.com to find
free and affordable mental help.
So until next time, be brave,ask for help, and be persistent
(59:40):
in finding the mental help thatyou need.
SPEAKER_01 (59:44):
Sometimes shit just happens worse than you can
(01:00:07):
imagine.
SPEAKER_03 (01:00:13):
Check Your Head Podcast is kindly supported and
partnered with Sweet ReliefMusicians Fund, DBSA San Gabriel
Valley, Earshot Media, and LemonTree Studios in Los Angeles.
Visit checkyourheadpodcast.comwhere we have over 100 solutions
for mental health.
Be our friends on social mediaat Check Your Head Podcast.
(01:00:34):
Watch us on YouTube and supportus with a kind donation on
checkyourheadpodcast.com.
Check Your Head podcast issponsored by a 501c3 nonprofit
with all donations being taxdeductible.
Thank you for your support andthank you for listening.
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