Lzzy Hale (Halestorm): Alcoholism & Depression Recovery with Dr. J. Stuart Ablon (Harvard Medical School)

Mari Fong & Kat Jensen interview Lzzy Hale of Halestorm and expert J. Stuart Ablon, Ph.D., Harvard Medical School. 

Today's featured guest just came back from playing with Metallica, Slayer, Lamb of God and the great Ozzy Osbourne and Black Sabbath, for the “Back to the Beginning” show, touted as "the greatest day in the history of heavy metal." A bigger hint? She was the only female rocker invited to perform onstage. Yes, today we have the great Lzzy Hale of Halestorm, a Grammy Award winner who’s also a mental health advocate having been a member of the Grammy Mental Health Panel, Halestorm recently dropping their 6th studio album entitled, “Everest” on August 8. Lzzy will share her story of battling depression, panic attacks, anxiety and alcoholism, and then share the solutions that managed her demons. We’ll also find out why she feared Alcoholics Anonymous, who convinced her into therapy, and how she survives and thrives as one of the greatest female metal rockers in music. I’ll also play a clip of Halestorm’s single, “Everest” at the end of our episode. 

Next, our featured expert is an award-winning psychologist from Harvard Medical School, Dr. J. Stuart Ablon. Dr. Ablon is known for his revolutionary approach for creating change, not just for our mental health and addiction but also for use in our everyday lives. We’ll tackle questions like, “How do you approach someone who may be in danger of losing their life to their addiction?” And the meaning behind his tag lines, "People do well if they can, and behavior is about skill, not will.”  But first, let’s hear Lzzy Hale of Halestorm, share her story, and for this interview, musician Kat Jensen, will be joining me. 

Be brave, ask for help, and be persistent in finding the mental help that you need.

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Episode Transcript

CHECK YOUR (00:00):
(Begins with Music)

MARI (00:03):
Welcome to the CHECK YOUR HEAD Podcast, the
podcast where notable musiciansand experts share stories and
solutions for mental health andaddiction recovery.
I'm your host, Mari Fong, amusic journalist, and today's
featured guest just came backfrom playing with Metallica,
Slayer, Lamb of God, and thegreat Ozzy Osbourne with Black

(00:25):
Sabbath for the Back to theBeginning show, touted as the
greatest day in the history ofheavy metal.
A bigger hint?
She was the only female rockerinvited to perform on stage.
Yes, today we have the greatLizzy Hale of Halestorm, a
Grammy Award winner who's also amental health advocate.
Having been a member of theGrammy Mental Health Panel,

(00:47):
Halestorm recently dropped theirsixth studio album entitled
Everest.
Lizzy will share her story ofbattling depression, panic
attacks, anxiety, and addiction,and then share the solutions
that helped manage her demons.
We'll also find out why shefeared Alcoholics Anonymous, who
convinced her into therapy, andhow she survives and thrives as

(01:11):
one of the greatest femalerockers in music.
I'll also play a clip ofHalestorm's single "Everest" at
the end of our episode.
Next, our featured expert is anaward-winning psychologist from
Harvard Medical School, Dr.
J.
Stuart Ablon.
Dr.
Ablon is known for hisrevolutionary approach for

(01:32):
creating change, not just forour mental health and addiction,
but also for use in our dailylives.
We'll tackle questions like,how do you approach someone who
might be in danger of losingtheir life to their addiction?
And the meaning behind histaglines, people do well if they
can, and behavior is all aboutskill, not will.

(01:53):
But first, let's hear LizzyHale of Halestorm share her
story.
And for this interview,musician Kat Jensen will be
joining me.
You just came back from performing at the Back to the
Beginning show.
I

LZZY HALE of HALESTORM (02:09):
I know, right?
We were so grateful to bethere, and it was such a crazy
mix of emotions.
We've never played a concertlike that before where everybody
was there for the same reason.
This was all just to saygoodbye to Ozzy and to celebrate
Black Sabbath and their legacy.
So we were emotional, we cried,and then we were ready but also
terrified because we're like,oh my gosh, this is nuts that

(02:31):
we're even here.

MARI (02:31):
Not only is that super exciting, But that's also kind
of scary.
I would think there would befears to be on stage with your
icons and at the same time theworld is watching.
How do you quell those fearsand get yourself on stage and
put together like such anamazing performance like you
did?

LZZY HALE of HALESTORM (02:52):
You know, I'm better at it most
times.
And then there are still sometimes that the anxiety creeps
in.
It's like, what am I doinghere, you know?
But for me, I have to remindmyself of my 10-year-old self,
if that makes any sense.
My mom has a home movie of meat 10 years old before we
started the band.
I'm in my living room.

(03:13):
My dad's playing the piano,some kind of Beatles-esque rock
chords, and I'm just making upsongs.
And I think about the core ofme and how I was so proud of
myself.
I'm like watching myself singand make up these songs.
And as a 10-year-old, I'm like,girl, you always had it.
You didn't need anybody to tellyou you did or not, you know?

(03:33):
So I try to go back to thosethings and trust my inner child
in a weird way, you know, andlet her guide me.
That's easier said than done.
There's always an element ofexcitement or nerves before a
show, but I feel like I'mgetting better at not having
either of those things be fearbecause I think fear is just a

(03:54):
wall that you end up putting up.
It doesn't do anything for you.
You know, what are we strivingafter?
Perfection?
That's not going to happen.
We're not perfect people, youknow, like we put too much
pressure on ourselves to benormal or to be perfect or to be
light all that really mattersis what you think about yourself
you know this pertains tosongwriting too but it's like if

(04:15):
I was on a desert island andthere was nobody else around
would I still like what I dowould I still like me that's
really the only question that Ineed to answer in those
situations you know also easiersaid than done because giving
myself a pep talk can eitherwork or sometimes freak me out
more so it's a constant journeyfor me.

MARI (04:36):
Well, you know, you talked about being 10 years old, and I
was reading that you've hadyour first panic attacks around
10 or 11 years old.
I mean, what did you do at thatage to kind of calm yourself
down?

LZZY HALE of HALESTORM (04:50):
When I got into middle school, I got a
better handle on it because Iwas starting to play instruments
and all of that.
But I remember when I wasyounger, I ended up tearfully
confessing everything to ateacher and then just being
like, I need you to call my momnow and I gotta go home.
So my first instinct when I wasyounger was to run to try to

(05:12):
find the way out of whateversituation because usually what
happened at school when I'malone.
We're like can I do this?
You know, and it's too much. Istill battle those things today
but I feel like there'ssomething about now being a part
of the arts and having certainoutlets. And also I try to tell
myself that it's just a feelingyou know it's not that I'm

(05:35):
broken or my brain is broken orthat I'm just never going to be
happy.
You know, it's just a feeling.

Speaker 02 (05:42):
Well, that must be difficult because so much is
coming at you at the level thatyou are because you're such a
popular band.
I know that you started outwith panic attacks, but you've
also had depression and anxietyand imposter syndrome.
Can you give me an idea of howthat progressed in your life?

(06:04):
Because Because I know thatdepression and anxiety was in
your family and oftentimes it'spassed down.
Yeah,

Speaker 04 (06:11):
I think there's something to do with that.
And, you know, I was a child ofthe 90s and my parents'
generation, nobody really talkedabout therapy.
There was a lot of shame aroundthat.
You know, I even remember beingat the Christmas table like
when I was a kid and somebodywould be talking about one of my
aunts.
Oh, she had to go see a shrinkbecause she couldn't handle
divorces.
So, yeah, I mean, definitelythere is a history of mental

(06:34):
health.
mental illness, depression, andsome mania in my family.
And there's a lot of ADHD aswell.
And I watched a lot of myfamily go through it without
actually seeking help.
And so my brother and I endedup having this talk about seven
years ago and said, we need tobe the cycle breakers and we
need to help ourselves, but wecan't have this mentality that

(06:58):
our parents did.
So he ended up getting me intotherapy.
I guess my first real bouts ofdepression were in middle
school, not really understandingwhat I wanted to do in my life.
And then I ended up startingthe band with my little brother,
finding music.
And that really helped for along period of time, especially
when it was very new and whereit was something that I could

(07:18):
call my own.
It was something nobody couldtake away from me, something
that would make me feel special.
But the band was a much neededdistraction for myself and my
little brother.
We were both teasedmercilessly.
So it was one of those thingswhere we'd come home from school
and have a good cry about it.
and we would go and jam andwrite a song.
Then that gave me, you know,the means, a project, something

(07:41):
to shoot for.
Then years later, when I was inmy 20s, we ended up giving sign
to Atlantic Records and, okay,there's a new adventure.
And then my depression andanxiety kind of started creeping
back in through my 20s, but Ihad more fervor and a lot of
defiance, you know, in my 20sthat were kind of my armor.

(08:02):
And in my 30s, There was a lotof saying yes to a lot of
things.
I've always been kind of apeople pleaser.
So I ended up using my careeras a, oh, I guess I have to do
all the things.
I have to take on all theprojects.
And so I ended up burningmyself out a bit.
You know, there was I was neverinto this for attention.

(08:23):
There was like a fame thingthat happened where all of a
sudden, like, man, am I going tobe able to be this perfect
person that everybody feels likethey look up to now?
Like, is that something thatI'm going to have to take on?
You know, and then from there,I ended up drinking a little
more, more than I wanted to, notjust casual, but an everyday
thing.
But it wasn't making me happyanymore, that particular

(08:44):
substance.
It was making me feeldisparaging on myself.
It got to the point where,like, in my late 30s, where I
could have two glasses of wineand I'd be like, oh, I suck, you
know?
And so I ended up pulling thatout of my life shortly before I
turned 40.
I

Speaker 03 (09:03):
know that...
expected to have this rock androll lifestyle, you know, sex,
drugs, rock and roll.
And our fans often want us tolive up to that image.
So would you mind telling usmore about it?
Yeah,

Speaker 04 (09:19):
absolutely.
It's glorified within thebusiness as well.
This is the only job you canhave where you want to have a
beer at 10 in the morning duringpractice?
Sure, why not?
I was very lucky to have neverreally gotten to a point where
I've completely embarrassedmyself.
A lot of my demons were behindclosed doors.

(09:40):
And, you know, I would sneakstuff because I didn't want
anyone to think that I'mdrinking too much.
And then I saw myself in themirror at one point.
My guitar player ended upvideoing me at one point when I
was, like, just a little drunk.
And I was just very sad.
I didn't want to be thatperson.
It kind of scared the bejesusout of me.
And I'm like, how did it getthere?

(10:00):
Like, I watched all the behindthe music.
I know exactly what I'm notsupposed to do.
but the decision was it's nolonger making me happy and it
was hard to get through thatthere was a lot of FOMO for a
while like oh they all get to doit but I think I have a problem
you know and it's like it's notmaking me happy how come he's a
happy drunk and there'ssomething that happens with like

(10:23):
women too because for a longtime when I first started
thinking well maybe I'm on along road to sober I can't
really sustain this I keptdrinking because I was like you
know you got can talk about.
Johnny so-and-so knocked overthe statue in the lobby of the
hotel.
They all talk about it likeit's the glory days, whereas

(10:43):
women like, oh, you got toodrunk and messy last night and
we were embarrassed by you.
You know, it's like there'sthis juxtaposition between men
and women too and how they'reviewed as an alcoholic or how
they're viewed as, you know, ifthey're asking for help.
And that's the main reason whya lot of people don't
necessarily have the supportwhen they first really should be

(11:03):
looking at stopping drinkingtheir drugs.

Speaker 03 (11:06):
It's not only drinking drugs, whatever it is,
but when you're a female in thisindustry, I always found there
were some differences betweenwhat the guys were able to do,
what the girls could do, andwhat was expected of us.
You know, any image to behaviorto harassment.
I wanted to know as a woman,how have you dealt with that

(11:30):
yourself personally and playalong with the boys and not let
it bother you.

Speaker 04 (11:36):
One of

Speaker 03 (11:36):
my

Speaker 04 (11:36):
biggest weapons is flipping the script.
For example, when we were firststarting to play in the bars
and clubs as teenagers, youknow, I'd be carrying in my
equipment and, you know,literally without fail every
single time, either whateverbands we were playing with or
somebody who worked at the clubwould be like, oh, that's
awesome.
My girlfriend never carries inmy equipment.
I would have to explain like,no, I'm in the band, dude.

(11:59):
Or they'd be like, oh, themerch table's over there.
No, I'm not the girlfriend.
I'm in the band.
So I ended up using that to myadvantage because my idea was,
well, if they're not going toexpect me to be in the band, we
started doing this thing duringour show where I would start
from the audience with like ahood up and a microphone, but
like not be seen and just let myvoice be heard, kind of start

(12:21):
acapella, letting my music leadfirst.
And then another example iswhen we were shopping to labels,
they would come and play andsay, you're so consistent.
We love what you do.
But girls in rock aren't athing right now.
So we don't know what to dowith you.
At that point, I was like,that's ridiculous.
You know, I'm going to do itanyway.
And I'm going to play anywhereI can and get as much attention.

(12:43):
Somebody's going to have to dosomething about it.
But even after we got signed toa label, in the beginning of us
getting our songs on radio,they'd be like, we have an Amy
Lee or we have our token girl.
So that's enough for ourprogram.
You know, and that's sinceslowly but surely been inching
its way toward change.
But there was still a coupleradio stations on our last

(13:07):
record cycle during Back fromthe Dead that wouldn't play our
third single, Wicked Ways,because it was quote unquote too
aggressive.
But this is also the samestations that play, you know,
Five Finger Death Punch or Lambof God.
And I'm like, wait, you meantoo aggressive for a girl to
sing that way?
You know, it's like youunderstand the language, but
nobody wants to tell you thetruth.

(13:27):
But honestly, you know, youcan't be so incredibly concerned
with their opinion and the Andso I'm like, this may hinder my
journey, maybe a little longer,maybe twice as hard as maybe my
male peers, but I need to dowhat's right for me, you know,
and eventually everything kindof works itself out.

(13:49):
I've started flipping thescript too on how I think about
my plans not working out.
Like, I get excited if my plansdon't work out because that
means that who am I to know?
You know, it just leaves aspace open for something great
to happen.
Every special thing that hasever happened to us, everything
that's ever moved the needle hasbeen some chance reaction or

(14:12):
somebody that ended up seeingus, an opportunity that we got
to just say, okay, this is whowe are or this is who I am.
You know, it was never fromthose guys that said, oh, we
don't know what to do with youbecause that's small-minded.
It's like if you like what youlike, it shouldn't matter what's
between my legs, you know.

Speaker 02 (14:33):
Well, you know what?
You actually talked about areally good solution when things
go haywire or not as planned,that you had this attitude of,
you know what, maybe somethingbetter is going to become of
this.
Maybe there's a bigger picturethat I'm not aware of.
Just that attitude can reallyhave somebody feel more relaxed

(14:56):
about what's going on.

Speaker 04 (14:57):
Yeah, I'm not the be-all, end-all.
You know, I don't knoweverything, and there is
something me to this.
There's a reason that I'm stillhere after everything that I
survived.
You know, I talked to mytherapist about that.
It's really, it's crazy.
The fact that I'm able to standhere, you know, whether it's my
good day or my bad day and saythat I am here.
You know, in those moments, youhave to say, you know, who am I

(15:21):
to know what's right or wrong?
Who am I to know what thebigger picture is?
What the bigger plan is?
And it kind of calms me down,even if I'm having a bad day,
even if I don't like myselftoday.
I'm like, okay, that's a thingthat's happening.
When am I going to do about it?
The only thing that I cancontrol is my attitude and what
I'm going to do next.
You know, I've gone to some AAmeetings and there was this guy

(15:41):
that was talking and he saidthis really profound thing.
He said, you're not responsiblefor your first thought.
Your first thought can besomething, you know, a
disparaging thought that fliesin your head like, oh, I suck.
Or, oh, I want a drink rightnow for people in recovery.
But you are responsible foryour second thought and your

(16:02):
actions thereafter.
You And so we had thisconversation afterward and I
said, yeah, I'm just trying todo the next right thing.
Whatever that is, fill in theblanks and put the pieces
together and start kind offeeling better, even when you're
living in the chaos, even whenyou have no idea.
The truth is that nobody reallydoes.
We're living in this life,there's the illusion of rules

(16:26):
and boundaries and here's howyou're supposed to act, how
you're supposed to feel, howyou're supposed to write music.
There's no actual rules and noNobody actually knows what the
hell they're doing.
And that's everybody.
So you're not broken.
You know, we all have no idea.
And we're just trying to makeit out here.
I'm

Speaker 03 (16:44):
glad you said something about therapy because,
you know, people who might bestill stuck in what they've been
doing with the stigma oftherapy, what made you decide to
go get therapy?
And what would you say to thosepeople that it's, you know,
it's probably the best thingthat you could ever do for
yourself?

Speaker 04 (17:03):
to really start going to therapy.
I think it was about sevenyears ago, a little bit before
COVID.
It was my brother who got meinto it.
You know, I was going through adepressed moment, which does
happen on tour.
Sometimes you get into thisdownward spiral and you have to
pull yourself out of it.
But my brother had recentlystarted going to therapy and
he'd explained it to me.
He's like, sis, you go to adentist for your teeth.

(17:26):
You go to a doctor for yourphysical well-being.
This is just a brain doctor whoknows how these things work.
And the brilliance thing aboutwhat I've learned in therapy and
it really did save my life isyou're able to not let things
fester and you have a personthere that knows has seen a

(17:47):
million things before you knowyou don't feel alone about it
like it's just your problemslike a lot of other people do
and this is how we get out of itso here he will give you
solutions I'm a very internalperson so when I get into my
disparaging spirals it's hard toget out of them because I feel
like I have to deal with it onmy own I gotta do it but when

(18:08):
you have a professional soundingboard you know sometimes I
would be going through somethingor venting to her and she'd be
like you know that wasn't yourfault like just able to explain
certain situations to me all ofa sudden I would be like oh my
gosh because you can buildthings up in your brain to the
point that you don't evenremember where it started you

(18:28):
just feel bad now that's what Icall it the festering you just
let it sit too long and now it'sjust ridiculous you know you
don't even know why you're sadright now you know and one thing
that she always tells me too isdon't forget about the music
and I would scoff at her in thebeginning I'd be like what are
you talking about music is mylife I can't stop thinking about

(18:50):
the music you know I wentthrough a phase over COVID where
I just I didn't even want tolook at my guitar it made me sad
because I didn't know what Iwas doing at the time and she
said with everything that you'vegone through in your life and
everything that you've survivedThat was always your life route.
So she's always encouraging meto continue writing through it
and also creating something outof nothing.

(19:11):
It's such a confidence boosterand it is a way to get out of
your own head.
I've been in this band for 28years.
A lot of times it feels likejust something I do, not like
this magical thing.
Sometimes it feels trulymagical, but that's your
connection.
And that's how you would figureout the messy pieces in your
head as a child, even before youdecided to start the band.

(19:31):
That's how you did it.
So don't forget about that.
Don't take it for granted andjust say, oh, it's there because
it's my career.
If anything, that's just goingto dampen what it does for you.

Speaker 02 (19:43):
There are a lot of musicians that go through
depression and anxiety and panicattacks.
What are some examples of whatgoes through your head when
you're depressed and when you'reanxious?
Oftentimes those are illogicalfears, but they're so real when
we're in it.

Speaker 04 (20:00):
The biggest one that would happen with me is I'm
about to do something that Icould say logically I've done a
million different ways beforeI've gone through harder things
but for some reason I don'tbelieve I can and so it becomes
more survival and less I'm justgoing to enjoy myself in the

(20:23):
moment that's usually what endsup happening with me with my
anxiety and even after I conquerit you're driven by this
anxiety and this like fear offailure failure.
So you muscle your way through.
And even after I accomplishthis thing, I still go into a
bout of depression because I'mlike, damn it, I've lost the
magic.
What is it?
I've lost it.
Even though that's dumb andimpossible, I say that to myself

(20:47):
a million times.
Like that wasn't even thehardest thing I've ever done in
my life.
And yet I had so much anxietygoing through it.
As a band, we sometimes gothrough some mutual nerves or
anxiety depending on what'sgoing on in our career.
And we have this silly thingthat we do.
Either together or we do it adeach other if somebody's having
a bad day you have to yell andthen run in place as fast as you

(21:09):
possibly can you know we dothis whenever things are getting
a little too serious becauseyou can't keep your train of
thought when you're doing bothof those things at the same time
and it does help snap you outevery now and again sometimes
it's not enough and I have totell myself that this is just a
feeling and I can get through ityou know it's like I feel like
for me everything comes down towhether I'm thinking way too

(21:32):
much about what happenedyesterday or waiting too much
about what's happening tomorrow.
You know, if I just keep myselfto one thing at a time and do
the next right thing, you know,I can usually calm myself down.

Speaker 02 (21:45):
Yeah, I think what's important is persisting through
the emotion because sometimesemotion can be strong and
oftentimes we'll try to grabwhatever we can to get out of
that feeling.
But I think to be able topersist through it and move past
it could really help a lot ofpeople that have suicidal

(22:05):
thoughts or maybe they feel likerunning away when they're
having a panic attack.
I mean, all those feelings arenormal, but just to kind of sit
with it for a bit.
You know, one thing youmentioned is getting out of a
deep hole.
And depression is reallydifficult.
Kat and I have both beenthrough really severe
depressions, and sometimes ittakes a while to get out of that

(22:25):
hole.
It can be paralyzing.

Speaker 04 (22:28):
Yeah.
The things that normally wouldmake you happy just don't.
It's terrifying because youfeel like, oh, now this is just
the way it's always going to be.
That's something very wiseabout naming it something and
calling it the feeling and justbeing like, okay, this is just
something that's happening, butit's not going to last forever.
And you can't turn to drinkingor drugs because that only makes

(22:53):
that worse.
When I was still drinking, thesolution would be just to try to
freeze time, to try to shut itoff.
To quit drinking was when Ithat every time I would get
depressed.
Maybe that'll help me forgetabout it.
Maybe that'll help me not thinkabout it.
Because all you want to do isnot think about how you feel.
Just getting yourself out,keeping yourself distracted.

(23:15):
I hate it too, but it's likeyou have to muscle yourself to
do it.
I don't feel like doing thisday.
But you know what?
It's the thing to do.
I had to do it.
Let's just do it and getthrough it.
And then I find myself halfwaythrough the task or even at the
end of the task, I'll have to dosomething else.
I have to keep my mind busy,distracted for a while.
Playing guitar, a very gooddistraction, you know, and you

(23:39):
end up getting better because ofit.
I started learning differentriffs.
I'm just like, you know what,this is going to make me a
better player anyway, but it'sgoing to distract me from how
I'm thinking.
And then all of a sudden, likean hour later, I'm like, I
hadn't thought about that in anhour.
That's awesome.
And the more you can practicethat, the more you can try to
weed it out.
But everybody's different, butyou're not alone in thinking

(24:00):
that way.
And these things happen to somany people.
Honestly, I feel like it's themajority of people.
If you could find me one personthat's never been depressed
over anything, I'd probably callthem a liar.

Speaker 02 (24:11):
I was wondering, you mentioned therapy, which is
amazing, but some people takemedication for depression or
anxiety.
What are your thoughts on that?

Speaker 04 (24:21):
You know, it's funny that you asked that because I
have begun talking to my doctorabout taking some
antidepressants.
We're going to see first howthings go because I feel like it
could be really helpful.
But at the same time, what Iended up telling her was that I
need to kind of clear my head abit.
And I wanted to get myself to acertain point where I knew that

(24:44):
was going to be the next stepfor me.
So we've just kind of been inthis ongoing conversation about
like, okay, when should we?
I have so many of my friends,either in the industry or not,
that take antidepressants andhave done the trial period with
a couple different ones to findthe right situation.
And it really has helped.
And then I've had a I agree.

Speaker 02 (25:27):
We have a website called checkyourheadpodcast.com.
I have about 150 differentsolutions, organizations, all
free and affordable because Ifeel like it should be
accessible to everybody andeverybody can have their choice
on what they want to try andalso what's going to align with
their lifestyle and theirpersonality.
There's a lot of belief systemsand sometimes they change.

(25:49):
Like you're talking about yourmental health journey.
Maybe at one time you mighthave thought medication was not
the way to go, but maybe now youmight say, you know what?
I think maybe that's somethingI'd like to try.
There's

Speaker 04 (26:02):
no one rule and your beliefs can change.
And I was one of those peopletoo, where it's like, oh, I'll
never be medicated.
I'll just figure it out.
The hardest thing to do is tobe honest with yourself and ask
for help when you need it.
I know it's tough, butliterally that's the difference
between saving your life andnot.
You don't have to carry thisalone and you don't have to feel

(26:25):
like the way that you feel.
forever.
There's people out there thatcan help you and there's no
shame in asking for help.
You haven't failed because nowall of a sudden you need help.
You know, if anything, you onlyfail if you don't ask for help
and then something happens, youknow, and you get to a point
where you can't see the light atthe end of the tunnel.
You know, that's failing.

(26:46):
So it's a personal journey, butI feel for so many of these
kids out there.
I talk with them at the showsand the meet and greets and I
get these beautiful letters frompeople and I'll tell you what
if you like live music there'snothing to break you out of a
dark cloud than going to a showyou know either performing a
show or going to a show therehave been many times where I was

(27:09):
like I don't know what I'mfeeling and then one of my guys
will be like hey we're goingdown to see this local band at
this bar in downtown I'm likeokay let's go fine I'll just get
out of that house and the wholetime I'm going there I'm like
why am I getting out of thehouse I don't want to go
anywhere and then when I getthere you can physically feel
that cloud being lifted Likejust surrounded by people that
are just like you.

(27:29):
They're just like wanting thatescape.
So, you know, there aredifferent outlets.
But like I said, don't beafraid to talk to somebody if
you're feeling weird.

Speaker 02 (27:38):
I read about when you first really wanted to be a
mental health advocate, you hadsomething that happened that was
really difficult, which is yourfriend Jill Janis from
Huntress, who unfortunatelypassed from suicide.
I mean, if she were alivetoday, what advice would you
give to her as far as reachingout and, you know, getting help?

Speaker 04 (28:04):
I'd probably tell her to call me and just to vent,
even if I didn't understand,maybe some closer people, saw
some signs, but none of us did.
Nobody in her outer circle.
And it's a shame she didn'treach out.
It's a shame things got so badthat she didn't feel like she
could.
The lesson on the other side isthat, unfortunately, nobody can

(28:26):
tell her this now.
But if you're feeling like youwant to go away, I implore you
to remind yourself, you know,how many people actually care
that you exist and care thatyou're here?
Because I felt that way too incertain ways.
It's amazing how you can feelvery alone and still be
surrounded by a lot of people.
It's a permanent solution to atemporary problem.

(28:47):
You know, I feel like I canspeak from experience with my
depression and my anxiety.
It goes in waves.
I was watching some interviewwith Tom Hanks and we're asking
people about the best advice heever got.
And he said that somebody hadtold him this too shall pass.
And he's like, and that goesboth ways.
You having a bad day today?

(29:08):
This too shall pass.
You having a good day today?
This too shall pass.
You know, and I think that whenI try to remind myself of that,
it makes me feel better becauseeverybody's going through this
ebb and flow.
We are complex beings.
We are constantly evolving.
Every seven years, your cellschange.
You know, it's like, giveyourself some grace.

(29:29):
You know, you don't have to behappy all the time.
You don't even have to likewhat you do all the time.
But understand that thependulum will swing the other
way as long As long as youdecide to keep trying and you
keep moving forward and you askfor help when needed, you know,
and people are so willing togive you a hand.
You know, if anything, most ofus who have lost friends to

(29:51):
suicide just wish that they haddone something because we would
have been willing to

Speaker 02 (29:56):
help.
Yes.
Of course.
Yeah.

(30:21):
that if that person is kind ofhell-bent on doing that.

Speaker 04 (30:41):
It's kind of like if somebody has a problem with
drugs or alcohol, you can't justbe like, hey, just don't drink.
It doesn't work that way.
It has to be that person thatmakes that decision.

Speaker 02 (30:53):
Well, you know, one thing that was really
interesting is that I read thatyou had an idea of what AA was,
but then when you got there, itbecame something life-changing
for you.
What was your image before?
And then what was, thatlife-changing experience for you
after you experienced it.

Speaker 04 (31:14):
I grew up in a Christian school, so I've gotten
burned by God before by theidea that this particular
religion's put God into.
What does that mean, gettingburned by God?
I consider myself a spiritualperson.
I believe that God is more thanwhat man decided he was.

(31:34):
And there's a lot of religiousconnotations that paint him out
to be this, you know, thisvengeful person in the sky just
ready to, like, clamp down.
fear of getting kind of wrappedup in something man-made
religion based.
I shied away from AA, but whenI went there for the first time

(31:55):
and then the second time, itbecame this fellowship and it
really did become like church,but for me it was the gift of
desperation where it's likeyou're finally ready to say,
okay, I give my life over.
It was amazing, just absoluteamazing stories and communities
and you don't feel so alone.
You don't feel on in your sillystories and your mistakes and

(32:17):
the guilt you feel for some ofthose things or even just the
idea that you let it get to acertain point.
There was no judgment orhierarchy.
It was a place for us all to beourselves and I got to meet
people.
I mean, I keep in contact withso many of my buddies at the A's
out here on the road becausethat gets difficult and so I end

(32:38):
up hooking up with some friendsand keeping each other in check
and it was worth it.
I find myself whenever I go.
It puts me on the right pathand it says, okay, I made the
right decision today.

Speaker 03 (32:51):
It kind of raises my curiosity.
Being sober, what does theafter party or backstage look
like for you now?
Do you view it differently thanyou did in the past?

Speaker 04 (33:06):
Yeah, and if anything, it's actually more
enjoyable now because I'm ableto be mentally present.
It's more enjoyable to hangaround everybody, even if
they're getting drunk, you know,but it's like I like absorbing.
you know, the energy of it.
I go through phases, like I'lldo the NA beer thing, but I'm

(33:27):
really into tea.
And there's actually a lot ofnon-alcoholic or de-alkalized
wine out there that I'vediscovered.
I think it's harder at first toget out of habit, you know?
And so you tell yourselfthings, you're like, oh man,
this sucks because I have to bebetter for myself.
And how come they get to drinkit?
I don't get to drink.
But when you realize that it'snot really about the drinking

(33:50):
versus not drinking, it's aboutYou've just created a habit over
years.
This is what you do when you'resad, when you're happy, to
celebrate.
You know, it's like we'readvertised all the time.
And that routine and break thathabit and cycle, it gets
easier.

Speaker 02 (34:05):
Yeah, I think it's amazing just what we grow up
with and what we are led tobelieve, let's say with alcohol,
and how it's so pervasive.
You know, whether we saw it inour families or whether we
thought that was part of being Arock star is sex, drugs, and
rock and roll.
But to start to be reallyconscious about what am I doing

(34:29):
and what is this really bringingto my life and realize that
sometimes drugs or alcohol canactually bring drama, break
apart relationships, or make youfeel like, oh my gosh, I can't
believe I said that or did that.
And then realizing, you knowwhat?
I kind of want to be clear andactually enjoy all the people

(34:49):
that I'm surrounded by.

Speaker 03 (34:50):
Because some people get addicted to the drama that
comes with using and it can grabyou in different ways.

Speaker 04 (35:00):
Some people, it's more comforting to try to be
miserable.
It's more comforting becausesometimes it might be all I've
ever known.
There's a comfort in theknowing versus the unknowing
where sometimes the happiness,like be aware of the happy times
because you're like, what isthis feeling?
I'm not used to this.
But you absolutely hit the nailon the head.

(35:20):
You have to check yourself andbe like look this is causing
more harm in my life than goodthis is causing me to be more
depressed it compounds on itselfyou know that's just the way
that is that's why I was sayingabout the gift of desperation
like I was so sick of my ownstuff you know like the

(35:41):
situations I was putting myselfin and sick of how it was making
me feel also the things thatwent through my mind was like I
know where this goes I don'twant to be this stereotype
either I And I can see the pathwhere that might go.
And alcoholism does run in myfamily.
So I had to make that difficultdecision.
But you know what's great aboutit?
For any of you listening inrecovery, you're going to get to

(36:01):
a point where you're almostgoing to feel bad for the
functional alcoholics in yourlife.
I feel like I could have neverappreciated my highest high if I
had never known my lowest low.
If I'd never gotten to a pointwhere I'm like, man, I just
can't go on autopilot before Ihave to make some decisions in
my life.

Speaker 02 (36:21):
And what was the lowest low for you what was the
thing that happened that's likeoh my gosh I really have to do
something now I

Speaker 04 (36:28):
think it had to do with a combination of imposter
syndrome and this depressionspiral that I was in like the
last year that I was stillreally drinking and I was using
drinking to just kind of shuteverything off I need an escape
you know I don't necessarilywant to die but I don't want to
be functioning right now youknow because functioning is

(36:49):
difficult I wasn't necessarilyEverything that I was looking at
was more of a have to than awant to.

(37:12):
stuff together.
So that compounded on itself tothe point that I lied a couple
different times about whether ornot I was stopping because I
didn't know how to balance it.
It was just a very weird, messysituation that I needed to like

(37:35):
break apart and reorganize.
And part of that was going totherapy and eventually stopping
drinking because it was nolonger making me happy.
The latest thing that I justdid in February was I went on a
therapy retreat where we did alot of psychodrama and learned
how to meditate for the firstAnd it was for seven days.
It felt like I was there for30, but it was for seven days.

(37:55):
No phone, no internet.
We did group therapy.
And I encourage anybody thatfeels brave enough to do
something like that to do itbecause you don't realize how
much the world is justadvertising at you.
Just the weight of everythingthat you are allowing to absorb,

(38:16):
you know?
And so taking the time to takea break from social media, take
a break from from the internet,the news, all of that, and try
to just sit still and be okaywith that kind of stillness has
been really important in mylife.

Speaker 02 (38:32):
Well, I applaud you for doing this because that's
like a self-care thing, right?
You're saying, you know what, Iam super busy just like
everybody, and you could thinkof any excuse to say, you know,
I'm not going to do this.
I don't have the time.
And I think that's what happenswhen musicians don't really put
themselves first.
And it just keeps changing,right?

(38:54):
Because you talked about alittle bit about relapse and a
little bit about what you do totry to hide your addiction.
I think that's really normaland natural.
It just keeps changing and youjust keep learning more because
sometimes something worked lastyear, but

Speaker 04 (39:12):
this is not.
Exactly.
And that's such a naturalthing.
And I think that people thinklike, oh, well, I'll do this and
it'll fix it.
That's not necessarily true.
Maybe it'll fix it for a littlewhile, but you have to kind of
bob and weave and pivot.
And the toughest thing for mewas deciding to put myself

(39:32):
first.
Even when I went on thatretreat, like I lost a full week
of rehearsals, guys.
You know, like there's thingsthat I couldn't do that I had to
put on hold so that I could dothat for myself.
Don't worry about it.
Life is still going to go on.
Life is still going to be herefor you when you give back.
I've been on kind of a warpathfor self-betterment for the past
10 years.
two years or so because in away that does get addicting

(39:55):
because the more I learn aboutmyself, the more I want to be
artistic in a different way orwrite songs in a different way.
I get more connected with myinner child and she becomes a
co-writer for one of my newsongs.
You know, it's like everythingyou can do for yourself will
help Spiderweb out and help yourother relationships too.
You know, I'm doing someamazing healing with my mom and

(40:17):
my relationships with mybandmates.
I've never been stronger.
It's just, it's a, It's anamazing thing when you start to
take care of yourself.

Speaker 03 (40:26):
I know that there are a lot of fans of yours,
especially girls that justreally want to go into music
because that's how I was.
I know that every time you seesomeone speak out, it's a great
thing because it affects others.
Do you have any advice forthose girls that want to maybe
follow in your footstepspersonally?

(40:47):
I think,

Speaker 04 (40:48):
and especially in today's day and age where we are
judging ourselves based on howmany followers we have.
Do I need to gain weight, loseweight?
Is my music good enough?
Whatever questions are goingthrough your head, what I'd like
to tell any young womanlistening is that no matter what
you do in life, no matter whatyou put out there, no matter

(41:11):
what kind of music you make,you're never going to be all
liked and you're never going tobe all hated.
And either one of those, we'vestreams don't actually matter at
all.
The only thing that matters iswhat you think about yourself.
You know, you love yourselffirst and make sure that you're
doing the most enjoyable thingpossible, creating the music
that you want to make, playingthe way that you want to play,

(41:32):
holding yourself the way youwant to hold yourself.
And the strange thing aboutthat is that you actually end up
finding your people.
You find your friends, you findyour tribe, you find your
followers through just beingyour weird self and owning it.
And the only thing that mattersis loving yourself first and
enjoying what you do.

Speaker 02 (41:55):
Next up, we have expert Dr.
Jay Stewart-Ablon, who willteach us the basics of
collaborative problem solving.
This helps us better understandand change challenging behavior
while building the skillsneeded to protect our mental
health.
He's been a speaker for TEDx,South by Southwest, and has
authored a number of books,including Changeable and and

(42:17):
most recently writing with MelRobbins, the parent-companion
guide to her best-selling book,The Let Them Theory.
Now, let's hear Dr.
Avalon share his bestprofessional advice.
We just heard Lizzie Hale'sinterview, and she's had issues
with her mental health, withaddiction, particularly

(42:39):
alcoholism.
And you know, a lot of peopleare resistant to change, and
you're known for the taglines,people do well if they can, and
behavior is about skill, notwill.
Can you start by furtherexplaining this?

Speaker 00 (42:54):
Absolutely.
That phrase even, resistant tochange, you know, it seems to
imply that somebody is quitecapable of changing, but just
doesn't really feel like it.
And, you know, that's really atodds with what we've learned
now about change and our humanbrain and behavior and our
mental health.

(43:14):
You know, it used to be thecase that we just thought if
people tried hard enough, youknow, they could behave in
whatever ways and feel whateverways we wanted them to feel.
But it's just not that simple.
And what research has shown isthat as people are behavior is
driven much more by our skillsthan our motivation.

(43:35):
And when I say skills, I meanskills in areas like problem
solving and flexibility andfrustration tolerance and what
are called emotion regulationskills, which is just a fancy
way of saying like our abilityto manage our emotional
responses to things.
And those are skills.

(43:56):
And they're skills that we'reactually not often taught.
We just sort of hope people getthem naturally.
And when they don't, westruggle in the world.
And my work is about helpingpeople understand that most of
us are trying the best we can tomanage what the world is
throwing at us with the skillswe have.
And the notion of people dowell if they can, what that

(44:17):
means is we're all doing thebest we can.
Not people do well if they wantto, but people do well if they
can.

Speaker 02 (44:24):
Well, you know, it kind of reminds me of being back
in school and the child thatmay not be doing How that person
might be working maybe threetimes as hard as the person
that's getting an A.
And I found that to be true formyself.
I mean, there were classes likemath and usually things with

(44:46):
numbers that really I had a hardtime with, and I was working so
hard to do well.
But the classes that I excelledin, I seemed to breeze through
it a lot better.
Let's

Speaker 00 (45:01):
talk a little kids who we now know have learning

(45:31):
disabilities.
We had no idea in the past thatkids had these learning
disabilities.
We just thought that theyweren't trying hard enough to
read or do math or write orthings like that.
And as you said, the ironythere is the people who struggle
with these skills are often theones trying the hardest.
People who have these skills inabundance, they come easily to
them.
They don't have to try thathard.

(45:52):
So this is a big mindset shiftfor us to realize that when
somebody's struggling, it'sprobably more about skill than
And they're trying really hard.
And what we don't want to do issend them the message that we
don't think they're trying hardenough.
Everybody's got theirchallenges.
And what are mine inparticular?
And what we're able to do, wefollow a bunch of research in

(46:16):
the neurosciences that helps usidentify the types of skills
that we need to be able tomanage our behavior in the
world.
And we can help people do aself-assessment of those.
I mean, we can ask you 20-oddquestions and you can reflect
upon, is this something that'seasy for me or hard for me?
And we can sort of spit out alittle graph that will say to

(46:37):
you, okay, here's where yourstrengths are and here's where
some of the challenges are.
And again, nobody gets a cleanbill of health across these
categories.
We all have our strengths andweaknesses.
So I think self-awareness comesif you begin from a place that
isn't about judgment.
It's a compassionate view.
And that opens the door topeople being better able to look

(47:00):
at their own strengths andweaknesses with an eye towards,
well, what might I want to workon as well?

Speaker 02 (47:06):
Well, I went onto your website It's
stewartablon.com.
And I took the test.
Okay, well, there you go.
Because I want to know, youknow, I guess I'm one of those
people that want to know what'sgoing on with myself so that I
can further improve as a person.
I'm really interested also incommunication and language.

(47:27):
So if somebody gets to a pointwhere they're like, okay, I
would like to be moreself-aware, they can go on your
website and take that test.
thing I saw is that you haveexperience working with people
that have explosive behavior andalso challenges in behavior.

(47:48):
I mean, what do we do in thosesituations?
Let's say if somebody is indenial of a problem that's
really starting to wreck theirlife.

Speaker 00 (47:59):
Well, I guess the way I like to think about that,
whatever form of challenging ordestructive behavior it is,
including addiction, is to thinkabout those things not as the
problem itself but as the sortof symptoms or the flag that
there is a problem.

(48:25):
So what I do is I try to,through a nonjudgmental lens, I
just try to get curious about,you know, what do you think is
going well in your life?
Where are some of thechallenges?
You know, what are the toughthings for you?
And really try to trace back,for instance, when it comes to

(48:48):
addiction, you know, when doessomebody find themselves using?
Under what circumstances?
What's going on in their life?
And those are the problems tosolve.
And it just so happens thatthis person's solution to those
problems may be using whereanother person's solutions may
be to withdraw or to explode orto you name it.

(49:09):
So I'm focused much less on thesolution I don't like and
instead on what are theconcerns?
What are the issues?
What are the things they'restruggling with?
And that'll open the door towhether there are other
potential solutions to theproblem as well.

Speaker 02 (49:26):
Okay, so being curious about yourself is a good
start to being self-aware.
But coming from the other side,let's say you're the partner of
somebody who is in addictionand you want to start talking
about that topic.
What's a good way to approachthat?

Speaker 00 (49:46):
I think the tough thing about these kinds of
discussions is they're soemotional and they're so fraught
that we often try to sort ofnuance the discussion or massage
it so that that we're sort ofbeating around the bush a little
bit so that we don't sort ofset someone off or have them get
defensive.
And what ends up happening isit ends up a discussion that

(50:09):
sort of really loses its focusand its original intent.
And so I encourage people to bevery direct, but to just wrap
that directness in empathy andcuriosity.
So it can look as simple as,hey, you know what?
I'm really concerned And I'mnot blaming you.

(50:34):
I know you're doing the bestyou can.
I'm just worried.
And I want to talk to you aboutit.
And I want to understand what'sgoing on for you.
So I go right into a mode ofempathy, which means trying to
understand.
I mean, this is the thing aboutthe word empathy means to
understand.
So you bring up your concernand go right into that and just

(50:55):
make sure that you're constantlyreassuring the person that
you're worried you're concernedabout how much you're drinking
lately.
You know they're doing the bestthey can, and you're there to
help.
But try to be as direct aspossible aside from

Speaker 02 (51:06):
that.
Well, let me be clear aboutsomething.

Speaker 00 (51:59):
thing.
Just giving advice is not goingto work.
We humans don't particularlylike other people telling us
what to do unless they tell uswhat we want to hear, which is
why if somebody is suggestingexcuses, you got to be careful
not to say, well, I just don'tbuy that.
And here's what you should do.
You need to take those concernsseriously, even if they seem

(52:23):
like excuses, and try to engagethe person in collaboration so
that they're trying to come upwith solutions to work on this
so that they have ownership andauthorship so that there's some
autonomy.
Or else it's just going to feellike these are things that are
being done to them.
And nobody likes that.
And nobody's particularlyeffective at taking other

(52:46):
people's solutions and just sortof enacting them.
It's just not something we see.
And that's probably because forus to be intrinsically driven
to do something, it requiresfeeling a sense of ownership,
connection to what we're tryingto achieve.
It also requires us feelingsome sense of competence, some

(53:09):
sense that we can do this andthat we feel good about it.
And that's why our approach is,in essence, collaboration
around solutions.
And while I'm not an addictionexpert, We have done a lot of
work in settings where peopleare being treated for addiction
amongst other very challengingbehaviors.
And what I'm describing is verysimilar to a process called

(53:30):
motivational interviewing, whichis frequently used in the
context of addiction as

Speaker 02 (53:44):
well.
the behavior.
But there's problems with thatcompared to, let's say, being
mutually collaborative.
Can you talk about why rewardsand punishment really don't
create lasting change or why itjust really doesn't work so

(54:04):
well?

Speaker 00 (54:06):
Well, they work for some things.
They don't work for otherthings.
Rewards, incentives,consequences, what they do is
they supply motivation.
So if what's getting insomebody's way is that they just
aren't hard enough, aren'tmotivated externally enough,
then sure, incentives andconsequences can work.
But there's a big differencebetween what we call extrinsic

(54:31):
outside motivation and intrinsicmotivation, intrinsic drive.
And if you externally motivatesomebody, you may see change.
You may see them try harder fora little bit of time, but it's
not going to be lasting becausethe only things that foster
sustained intrinsic drive aresense of mastery, a sense of
autonomy, a sense of purpose andpassion.

(54:54):
There's actually a lot ofresearch that shows if you try
to motivate somebody from theoutside, it actually eats away
at their internal drive.
It decreases their internaldrive.
So there's real dangers beyondit not working.
It can backfire.
And then the other piece is,you know, behavior is about
skill, not will.
And rewards, consequences,incentives, those things don't

(55:18):
build skill.
I mean, they don't teach peoplehow to become better problem
solvers, for instance, how toregulate their emotions better.
All they do is provideincentive.

Speaker 02 (55:29):
Well, one thing that you talked about is empathy.
And when there's a problem,oftentimes when somebody
approaches somebody else,they're thinking about what they
want opposed to what the otherperson wants.
You had talked about fouringredients of empathy.
Can you go into that so thatthat we can have that as a

(55:51):
foundation before we approachsomebody and have this talk?

Speaker 00 (55:55):
First of all, when you're approaching somebody, I
would say to yourself, try to becurious, not furious, okay?
And try to be curious and notjudgmental.
I often say to myself, okay, beopen-minded.
I may not love how this personis behaving, but I bet they have
a good reason.
I bet they have a good concern.
And that's what I'm on the huntfor.
But the reality is, I hate tosay it, but we're not very good

(56:18):
listeners.
us humans, because as youpointed out, we tend to enter
any conversation preoccupiedwith our point of view, and
we're just waiting for theopportunity to share that.
So it's really hard for us tobite our tongue and put aside
our perspective and listen.
But the four things you'retalking about are sort of the
four tools that if we do themand don't do anything else

(56:42):
besides those four, it helps useffectively stay in empathy mode
of trying to understand what'sgoing on for somebody.
And the good news is it's notrocket science, these four
tools.
It's asking questions.
You know, think of yourself asa detective.
If you don't get anyinformation from the other
person, taking some guesses, youknow, educated guesses.
Those two things areinformation gathering, questions

(57:04):
and guesses.
And then the other two thingsare just trying to help things
stay calm.
They're what I call regulatingtools.
And they are reflectivelistening, reflecting back to
the person what you've heardfrom them in their own words,
and Reassurance.
You know, when you feellistened to, heard, understood,
it literally changes yourpsychophysiology.

(57:27):
Like your heart rate, your skinconductance, your blood
pressure changes becausesomebody is hearing you and
letting you know that they'veheard you.
That's empathy.
And it's why I often sayempathy is one of the most
powerful regulators we have.
It calms people.
Feeling understood is calming.

Speaker 02 (57:49):
Right.
And kind of diffusing also ifthere's anger or sadness or a
really strong emotion that maybeneeds to be diffused in order
to have a conversation that bothpeople are going to be able to
absorb.
You're talking about languageskills and communication.
And one thing I found withmusicians is that sometimes

(58:10):
they're more comfortablespeaking through their music,
through their lyrics, opposed toa face-to-face interaction with
somebody.
What are some tips for somebodyto practice better language and
communication skills?

Speaker 00 (58:26):
You know, it's an interesting parallel because
I've done a lot of work withkids and adolescents.
And one of the things you learnabout kids is they have their
own language that they speak.
And they'll often tell you atremendous amount, maybe a less
direct, but a much more powerfulway to communicate.
And that's true of a lot ofartists as well.
And at the same time, it isimportant to be able to not just

(58:49):
in your music, but in your lifewith your partner, with your
friend, with your bandmate, tobe able to express your point of
view directly in words, to letsomebody know what's bothering
you, to let them know how youfeel.
And that is a skill that can bedeveloped.
And you're asking, how do youpractice it?
Well, one way you practice itis before you start any of these

(59:11):
conversations we're talkingabout, what I tell people is,
ask yourself, why do I want tohave this conversation?
Why is this a problem I want towork on?
What am I worried about?
And typically, what we'reworried about is somebody's
health, somebody's safety, orthe impact of somebody's
behavior on somebody else.
And then you can actuallyliterally write down ahead of

(59:32):
time how you want to expressyour concerns.
You can use, you know,different sentence starters
like, I'm worried that, myconcern is, what's important to
me is, and fill in the blankahead of time.
And that's a good way topractice practice putting your
perspective or your point ofview on the table.

Speaker 02 (59:54):
Good advice.
I don't know why I was thinkingthat maybe a musician could
write a song and sing it tosomebody and maybe they'll get
more insight.
It sounds kind of silly, butyou know, maybe that's a
starting point.

Speaker 00 (01:00:08):
Look, I have worked with musicians in therapy and
being curious because, you know,one of the great things about
good lyrics is you never knowexactly what they mean to the
musician.
because they evoke all kinds offeelings and thoughts and
memories for you.
They're universal in some way.
But that's one of the things wegot to be careful about is we

(01:00:29):
make assumptions about whatother people feel.
And so starting with curiosity,instead of saying, I read these
lyrics, this chorus made methink, no, I'm curious.
I have my own perspective onit, but what are you trying to
communicate there?
I'd love to understand.
That's the curiosity I'mtalking about.

Speaker 02 (01:00:48):
Well, I think you brought up a good point about
making assumptions.
And I think that if we aren'tself-aware of how we're
thinking, we could start puttingour own thoughts or maybe even
our own traumas into whatsomebody else is doing.
And that can get in the way ofreally listening and finding out

(01:01:09):
what's going on with them.
Yeah,

Speaker 00 (01:01:11):
I have to say, I try to practice curiosity as much
as possible.
And one of the things I'velearned is I'm constantly
surprised.
Every time I think I know whatsomebody's thinking is behind a
certain choice or behavior, butI'm able to approach it
open-minded and be curious,every time I do that, I
invariably end up surprised.

(01:01:31):
Oh, wow.
I thought it was this, but it'sactually something totally
different that I never wouldhave thought of.
So that's why this notion ofbeing curious, not judgmental,
is crucial.

Speaker 02 (01:01:41):
Okay.
So let's say we're self-aware.
I know Lizzie Hale was talkingabout mental health issues like
depression.
She was talking aboutalcoholism as part of her family
history.
She became self-aware throughher brother who said, hey, let's
break the cycle and reallystart to think about the whys

(01:02:02):
behind what I'm doing.
So when you get to that pointand you want to get help, what's
the next step?

Speaker 00 (01:02:10):
One of the great things is that therapy is far
more accessible than it's everbeen these days.
And some of that is because itcan be delivered in like this
over Zoom.
Therapy in person, I think, isalways more relationally
connected.
And I always tell people, tryto find a therapist that you
connect with.
And if you don't, move on.

(01:02:31):
Don't say, oh, therapy is notfor me.
No, that therapist may not havebeen for you.
That's fine.
Do a little therapy shopping.
And when you find somebody thatyou really connect with, say to
yourself, you know what?
I'm going to give this severalsessions before I decide,
whether I think this is for meor not, because psychotherapy is

(01:02:53):
overwhelmingly effective.
That's one of the things weknow from lots of research is
therapy is really effective.
So when you're trying to breaka cycle, when you're trying to
be more self-aware, you're goingto need a coach or a guide to
help you with that.
And there are many qualifiedprofessionals who can help with
that.

Speaker 02 (01:03:12):
You know, maybe that's one way we can think
about it more is that they're acoach.
I'm always trying to think ofways to make it easier to say,
hey, you know what?
I need assistance here.
I want to talk with somebodywho really knows what they're
doing in this specific area thatI have no experience

Speaker 00 (01:03:29):
in.
is an important driver ofphysical health as well.

(01:03:52):
We know that.
There's nothing like exposureto chronic stress and trauma to
cause terrible physical healthoutcomes as well.
So there are many reasons thatwe should be working hard to
normalize people seeking helpand support in various ways.

Speaker 02 (01:04:07):
Right.
You know, and one thing that Isay, especially to the guys in
my life, because I think thisresonates with them, is how
often do you take your car intothe shop?
You know, you've got to get oiland you've You've got to check
your tires and all of thosethings.
It's like, are you taking yourcar into the shop more often
than you're getting yourselfchecked with a doctor?
You really should be doing atleast as well, if not better.

Speaker 00 (01:04:31):
Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 02 (01:04:34):
So is there anything else that you would like to say
about the work that you do andalso how learning the right
skills, how it relates todealing with mental health and
addiction?

Speaker 00 (01:04:44):
Well, one of the things that we are learning and
a lot of research in psychiatryis shedding light on is that
these categories of mentalillness, whether we're talking
about depression or anxiety ordifferent diagnostic categories,
they all share some fundamentalthings in common.

(01:05:05):
Skills at being able to uselanguage and communication to
let people know how you feel toengage with others.
Skills related to managing yourimpulses.
Skills related to managing youremotions, flexible thinking
skills, social thinking skills,these things all underlie a lot

(01:05:25):
of mental health challenges,which is another way of saying
if we can focus on those skillsand building those skills, we
might do a better job ofpreventing a lot of suffering
that happens later on.

Speaker 02 (01:05:39):
A big thank you to our musical guest, Lizzy Hale of
Hailstorm, and our expert, Dr.
J.
Stuart Ablon.
For more information onHailstorm Visit
hailstormrocks.com where you canbuy their newest album Everest
and purchase tickets to theirworldwide Neverest tour.
Stay tuned for a clip ofHailstorm's single Everest.

(01:06:00):
And for more information on Dr.
Ablon, visit stewartablon.comand thinkkids.org.
And everyone, please follow uson social media at Check Your
Head Podcast.
Watch and subscribe to CheckYour Head Podcast's YouTube
channel and visitcheckyourheadpodcast.com for the
largest list of free andaffordable mental health and

(01:06:22):
addiction recovery solutions.
So until next time, be brave,ask for help, and be persistent
in finding the mental health andaddiction recovery you

Speaker 01 (01:06:32):
need.

Speaker 02 (01:07:25):
Check Your Head Podcast is kindly supported and
partnered with Sweet ReliefMusicians Fund, DBSA San Gabriel
Valley, Earshot Media, andLemon Tree Studios in Los
Angeles.
Visit checkyourheadpodcast.comwhere we have over 100 solutions
for mental health.
Be our friends on social mediaat Check Your Head Podcast.

(01:07:45):
Watch us on YouTube and supportus with a kind donation on
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Check Your Head Podcast issponsored by a 501c3 nonprofit
Thank you for your support andthank you for listening.