Mari Fong interviews Michael Murphy, lead singer of Written By Wolves, and musician health expert Kat Jensen. Michael Murphy shares his story and solutions for anxiety and depression, where his goal to always be “the best” started to have a negative affect on him and his family. Michael explains why songwriting is easier than traditional therapy, and how making lists has worked wonders for him. We play a clip of “Help Me Through the Night” inspired by Michael’s anxiety. Written By Wolves dropped the “The Collab Project” EP made as a mental health initiative featuring collaborations with Kellin Quinn of Sleeping with Sirens, Sonny Sandoval of P.O.D. and more.
Next, Mari Fong, Life Coach for Musicians, and Kat Jensen, singer-songwriter formerly of Love Toyz, talk about the dangers of perfectionism and how it can be tamed to work for you, not against you. How perfectionism can creep into a musician’s life and wreak havoc on their mind, body, spirit and relationships. How mistakes show you the way to achieving your goals.
“Be brave, ask for help, and be persistent in finding the mental help that you need.” For free and affordable solutions for mental health and addiction recovery, visit: http://checkyourheadpodcast.com/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_01 (00:00):
Welcome to the Check Your Head podcast, the podcast
where notable musicians andexperts share their stories and
solutions for mental health andwellness.
I'm your host, Mari Fong, amusic journalist and life coach
for musicians, and we are in themonth of October, a month full
of mental health celebrations.
(00:21):
World Mental Health Day is onOctober 10th, and October is
also National ADHD AwarenessMonth, as well as National
Depression and Mental HealthScreening Month.
And the first step in gettingbetter is to get tested.
So visitCheckYourHeadPodcast.com, where
we've just added a link whereyou can get immediate and
anonymous online screening for avariety of mental health
(00:42):
conditions.
Simply click on the MentalHealth for Everyone page to find
these fun, free, and informativetests.
Next, I'm thrilled to announcethat the Check Your Head Mental
Health for Musicians podcast haswon a 2021 People's Choice
Podcast Award for Best AsianHosted Podcast.
I'm especially proud of this winafter discovering that thousands
(01:04):
of podcast listeners from aroundthe world voted from a choice of
10 podcasts, with the majoritychoosing the Check Your Head
podcast for the win.
So thank you so much for that.
It feels really good to knowthat all those late nights
editing and working mostly bymyself have been noticed by
listeners just like you.
Now to our featured guests.
(01:26):
Today we have New Zealand'shighest streaming rock band
having first dropped their debutalbum, Secrets, in 2019 and just
dropped the Collab Project EPlast month, September 2021,
which includes an initiative tonormalize the conversations on
mental health.
And today we're going to do justthat with Michael Murphy, lead
singer of the rock band Writtenby Wolves.
(01:47):
We'll also be playing a clip oftheir song, Help Me Through the
Night, featuring Kellen Quinn ofthe band Sleeping with Sirens, a
song that was inspired byMichael Murphy's own anxiety and
depression.
The CoLab Project EP featuresheavy hitters like Sonny
Sandoval of POD, who are alsomental health advocates, all
singing to normalize theconversations on mental health,
(02:08):
as we do here on the Check YourHead podcast.
Next, musician Kat Jensen and Iwill talk about perfectionism, a
trait that Michael Murphy andother musicians can possess, and
how it can work for or againstyou.
You may remember Kat Jensen asour first musician interview on
the Check Your Head podcast.
She is also the lead singer ofthe 90s band Love Toys, having
(02:29):
toured and worked with bandslike Motley Crue, No Doubt, Don
Henley of the Eagles, and theone and only Paul McCartney.
Kat Jensen brings her uniqueperspective as a musician and
also one who lives withdepression, anxiety, and PTSD.
But first, let's hear MichaelMurphy of Written by Wolves
share his story.
(02:50):
We have Michael Murphy here,lead singer and songwriter from
New Zealand, straight from NewZealand here, live.
And you have the CoLab ProjectEP that's going to drop
September 17th, 2021.
So I'm super excited about that.
Thank you so much also for beingan advocate for mental health.
(03:11):
But I wanted to start with yoursingle, which is Help Me Through
the Night, and it featuresKellen Quinn from Sleeping with
Sirens.
And you mentioned the black dogof anxiety in the lyrics.
I was wondering, what's beenyour experience with anxiety or
mental health in general?
SPEAKER_00 (03:28):
Yeah, I mean, that was a lyric that kind of came
about with myself trying tobe...
more open and as honest aspossible with my songwriting.
And that particular song, thewhole idea was to try and give
the sense of an anxiety attackin the song in some way, shape
or form.
And we actually tried to mirrorthat with the video a little bit
(03:50):
as well.
That particular song was anattempt for me to try and talk
about not only anxiety, but totry and talk about the fact that
we need to start talking aboutthese things.
Hence the title, Help Me Throughthe Night.
The metaphor is that depression,anxiety, and mental health
issues are the night,essentially.
It's the dark place.
It's the thing that we try andhide from.
(04:13):
Going back and touching more onmy story, as far as mental
health issues go, depression andanxiety are something that I've
always dealt with and alwaysstruggled with, I suppose.
It's only really recently thatI've learned to understand that
a little bit more.
And probably now that I canunderstand that, it kind of
(04:34):
answers some questions from thepast when you look at things
that have happened and gone,okay, that's what I was going
through then.
That's what that was.
I mean, as a musician, and thisis what I've done all my life,
I've always put a huge amount ofscrutiny on myself and pressure
on myself to be successful.
There's obviously a huge sideeffect to that.
(04:55):
The more pressure you have, themore chance that you sort of
leave yourselves open to thingslike anxiety and depression.
And I think for me, it's alwaysbeen a bit of a vicious cycle.
The busier I get and the moreworried I get about things or
the more I start to see Theamount of things piling up that
I need to get done in order tomake something be successful,
(05:17):
the more anxious I become.
The more anxious I become, themore I take it out on the people
that I love the most.
And I might be angry orirritable or just so stressed
and overwhelmed in a situationthat I...
become someone that I don't likeand that obviously is always
reflected and it always affectsthe ones that I love the most,
(05:39):
my wife and my kids and myfamily closest to me.
When that happens, that's whenthe depression starts to happen
because I hate the fact thatI've become like that and I
start to feel guilty and badthat I'm doing that and becoming
that person.
And so the cycle just continues.
And then the more I step intothat, then the more behind I
get, the more I have no energyto achieve the tasks that I have
(06:04):
to achieve.
I've recently taken a more of amanagement role within the band.
And I feel like I've got a lotof people's hopes and things
riding on me to make rightdecisions and to make sure that
I keep things moving.
And, you know, add to that thepressures of, you know, of a
family and trying to keep allthe balls juggling in the air
and trying to keep them all upin the air.
(06:26):
You know, the more that happens,the more stressed I become, the
more stressed I become, the moreanxious I become, the more
anxious I become, the moreirritable I become, the more
irritable I become.
the more depressed I become.
And it just, it continues.
And it goes round and round andround.
And I never really envisagedthat I would be able to talk
about that because the more thatI talk about that, and certainly
(06:49):
in times past, I would have notwanted anyone to know that.
I would have not wanted to sharethat with anyone.
And it's only very recently thatI've been able to do that
because I've forced myself to, Isuppose.
Because I thought it was weak.
And I thought, you know, I'vealways had this persona of being
in control and being reallyconfident and being able to get
(07:09):
things done and being able tosort of make things happen and
be the fun guy in the process ofdoing it.
It's only recently that I'vestarted to understand and to
realize it's not weak at all.
It's such a normal thing.
And these things are all thingsthat we're going through.
But yet we've created thissociety that stigmatizes that
stuff and doesn't allow us tosee it as a normal thing.
(07:30):
You know, if I had a brokenarmy, rather than any of those
struggles, people wouldunderstand and they'd be able to
see it.
But yet it's just not seen.
It's invisible.
It just becomes a part of you.
So, you know, There's not manypeople out there that aren't
affected by these things oraren't touched by these things.
And I think that's somethingthat we've all taken a while to
realize because we're all hidingit and we've all been taught to
(07:53):
keep that away and not let thatout and not talk about it.
So then you do have people likemyself in the past who will find
that as a weakness to be able toshow it or will find that as
something that they shouldn't beallowed to share.
And it's just this viciousnever-ending cycle that we have
to change and break down thestigma and normalize.
SPEAKER_01 (08:13):
Right.
And that's that's really a keything is to normalize the
conversation, which is whatwe're doing right now.
You know, one thing you said wasthat there was a moment where
you decided to start talkingabout it.
And sometimes there's anincident that happens or maybe
an aha moment where you're like,OK, I'm going to talk about
(08:36):
this.
What was that for you?
SPEAKER_00 (08:39):
I mean, obviously not liking the person I've
become toward my family.
That's a big part for me.
I've got two young children, afive-year-old and a
two-year-old, and I don't wantto be that for them.
I don't want to be this personthat's grumpy and irritable all
the time.
So that's obviously been a bigtrigger in recent times.
However, probably the biggesttrigger for me to start talking
(09:03):
about these things and open uphas been the fans of our band,
the fans of Written by Wolves.
We started receiving messagesjust all the time, daily almost,
from people sharing their storywith us and telling us what our
music meant to them and what ithad done to help them through
whatever they were goingthrough.
And in some cases, they wouldsuggest that it had saved their
(09:25):
lives, which made me realize,especially once we saw more and
more of them and they started tocome through so thick and fast,
I realized that I was in thisincredibly lucky and privileged
position where I have thisability to be able to help
people through these situations.
But these were all people thatwere maybe sharing their story
(09:47):
with us, but weren't able toshare it with other people.
You know, felt that they wereoutcast in some way because of
how they felt.
And I was so touched by the factthat our music had done that for
them that...
myself and the rest of the bandall decided that it had to be
something that we had to do moreof, that we had to push further
(10:08):
on.
We were in this position wherewe could help people.
So you're never doing enough.
And I decided that it wasimportant for me to show them
that I could talk about thesethings too.
If they were brave enough toshare their stories with me and
to tell them what I'd managed todo for them, it was important
that I was brave enough to starttalking about these things.
(10:30):
And I know when we startedwriting and I brought that into
my songwriting and started totalk about these things a lot
more, I feel like there were alot of people around me that
were slightly shocked.
Not because of the subjectmatter, just realizing that
these things happen.
That's part of the stigma.
It's seen as such a bad thing.
Oh no, that's happened to thatperson.
(10:51):
But it's a normal thing and wehave to normalize it.
SPEAKER_01 (10:55):
Well, I was listening to a video that you
put out and you mentioned thatmusic was therapy for you and
that oftentimes the emotions youweren't able to talk about you
were able to write about andsing about in your music and
that was an outlet for you whicha lot of musicians you know the
(11:17):
first time they picked up aguitar or got into music was
sometimes during a difficulttime in life where they needed
that outlet when you look backwas that true for you or
SPEAKER_00 (11:29):
absolutely even before i knew that i was writing
on purpose to to to help to getthings out and to use it as a
form of therapy i was alreadydoing that and i might in the
past have buried things a lotmore but nowadays i try and make
it as clear i suppose aspossible but i now know more
(11:50):
that is a form of therapy for meand it is a way to to get across
thoughts that i definitely havestruggled with and internalizing
it and finding it difficult totalk to people with you know and
and even talk to peopleincredibly close to me about
these things um that's somethingthat's really really helped me
and looking back you did rightit's definitely something that
(12:11):
i've always done then and thensometimes i might have gone and
let off every ounce of steaminside me on stage or gone into
a studio and screamed my lungsout or something like that until
I felt like the emotion wascoming across and I maybe let it
out.
I mean, I know there's all sortsof forms of release and therapy
(12:31):
in which people do things.
People might want to go for arun or they might want to go
cook a meal or something likethat.
For me, even just the act ofsinging is something that is
really, really helpful for me.
SPEAKER_01 (12:43):
You know, I'm always curious because musicians seem
to feel a lot more comfortableletting their emotions out in
their music, let's say, opposedto talking about it, even with a
friend or therapist.
Why do you think it's easier tolet it out in music opposed to,
you know, your own words?
SPEAKER_00 (13:03):
There's probably a few reasons, and I'm not sure
that I'll get any of theseentirely correct, and I'm not
sure there's a right or wronganswer here, but it's sometimes
easier.
I mean, firstly, this is what Ido.
It's what I've always done.
Singing and music is somethingthat I feel incredibly
comfortable with.
Songwriting is something thatI've always loved and I've
(13:24):
always used as a form ofexpression.
When I do tackle something thatis difficult, to talk about.
It's like a natural form ofdoing that for me.
It's something that just comesnaturally.
So that in turn, it makes iteasier.
Not that talking is not naturalfor me as well.
I suppose that's something I'vebeen doing a while too.
But there's also almost a veilof secrecy there a little bit in
(13:47):
a song.
It's something to hide behind.
It can be less confronting.
I could write a song and there'sstill an aura of secrecy about
it.
You might not immediately thinkI'm writing about myself or you
might not know exactly what itis I'm talking about.
Or I can just use a lot ofmetaphor and things like that
and hide things in it.
So I suppose it becomes a littlebit of a safety blanket in a
(14:11):
sense.
It's a way to say these thingsthat we're possibly
internalizing.
But we've still got a little bitof something to hold on to.
It's not as raw and as open asme saying to you, I'm suffering
from depression and anxiety.
Even just saying that right nowfelt really, really confronting
to me.
But if I wrote that in a song,it wouldn't feel that way as
(14:34):
much anyway.
SPEAKER_01 (14:35):
Yeah, that was a great explanation.
It's funny because you mentionedsecrets.
And you actually have an albumcalled called Secrets.
And this collab EP is kind of areimagined version of Secrets,
right?
With the same songs, but you'recollaborating with different
artists.
(14:57):
But on that album, there was asong called Tell Me What You're
Running From.
How do you relate to thosewords?
What are you running from?
SPEAKER_00 (15:05):
So the whole idea around that song was about being
honest with myself.
And that's the beauty of musicas well.
It's like I might writesomething for myself, but I know
it's there for everyone else andthat they can take from it what
they will.
It's going to mean somethingdifferent to me, but it's also
going to mean somethingdifferent to you.
For me, it was about Just tryingto be honest with myself, like
(15:27):
you're allowed to quit, you'reallowed to do whatever you want,
but just make sure you're honestwith yourself as to why it is
that you're doing those things.
That was what the lesson was formyself.
Really just trying to be honestwith why you're making these
particular decisions andwhatever those decisions might
be, rather than kind of hidingbehind any sort of excuse or
(15:49):
thing like that, being honestwith yourself was really the
road I was trying to go downwith that one.
SPEAKER_01 (15:56):
I see.
You talked about depression andhow anxiety can sometimes spiral
into depression.
Can you give me some of thesymptoms that you had?
And actually, when did you firststart to notice?
How old were you when you firststarted to notice symptoms of
anxiety and depression?
SPEAKER_00 (16:17):
I mean, it's hard for me to narrow down an age or
anything like that.
From a very, very, very youngage, I had very high
expectations of myself.
I've always been an entertainerand I've always been a
performer.
And I always had this realoverriding urge to be the best.
And the older I've got, the moreI've started to realize that's
(16:40):
not necessarily a thing thatactually exists in any way,
shape or form.
I come from a small town in NewZealand, which on a global scale
is tiny.
And I always liked the fairytale idea that I could come from
this place and be the best.
And I'm not even really surewhat what I envisaged.
It's really just success.
(17:01):
And I always really drove myselfto be very, very successful in
whatever it was that I wasdoing, whether it was music or
acting or sports or anythinglike that.
And I think there comes a pointwhere that pressure just starts
to really take its toll on you.
And a lot of that pressure wascoming from myself.
I was always relatively good atdealing with it, but looking
(17:22):
back now, there was a lot ofanxiety, whether it's around
just a performance or it'saround exams at high school,
whether it's around any And alot of that anxiety always came
from me, not from the fear ofthe actual thing itself, not
from the fear of the performanceor the fear of the exam or the
fear of the sports game orwhatever.
It was more around the fear ofdoing well.
(17:45):
I didn't want to just do it.
I wanted to be the best at it.
That's when the anxieties that Iprobably faced and sleepless
nights and really worrying aboutall those sorts of things.
And then obviously, thedepression that can come with
failure.
And I think as musicians andentertainers, that's something
(18:05):
that we deal with a lot.
And I know failure is like abroad term because it can be so
subjective and objective, butit's something that is going to
go hand in hand with anyonewho's putting themselves out
there or working in an industrywhere you're open to judgment
and you're open to not beingreceived.
overly well or is being receivedin a lesser way than what your
(18:29):
expectations may be.
So looking back, that'ssomething I probably always had
to deal with.
And I certainly can remember,especially the anxiety that came
with it and how crippling thatcould be.
SPEAKER_01 (18:42):
You know, you mentioned an anxiety attack and
quite a few musicians have panicattacks.
I was wondering, what does thatlook like to you?
Do you have panic attacks oranxiety attacks?
SPEAKER_00 (18:53):
Yeah, I think like, Anxiety attacks, for me, they
generally come when I feel likethings have built up so much and
I feel like there are so manythings going on that I need to
do or that it gets to the pointwhere I feel like it's getting
out of my control.
I was never a big list writer.
(19:14):
I would generally just keeptasks in my head and I would
tick them off as I'd go and Iwould just really rely on my
memory and ability to get thesethings done and get them done
quickly.
So I think...
The most prominent anxietyattacks for me is when I feel
like this pile of things, thismetaphorical pile of tasks that
I have to get done, whether itbe things that I've got to take
(19:35):
off for the band for gettingreleases happening or work stuff
at home or pressures with havingto get stuff done for the
family.
Once that piles up and gets sointense, I get to this point
where I feel like I just can'tcope anymore and I'm at this
breaking point of anxiety.
I can't do all this.
I cannot do it.
What am I going to do?
How do I get this done?
How do I achieve this?
(19:55):
And it just becomes thisall-consuming thing, which then
becomes so difficult becauseI've got two kids now.
I can't just break down and juststop.
SPEAKER_01 (20:04):
Let me tell you, I raised two daughters while
working full-time, the wholething.
And so I totally understand therollercoaster of emotions and so
many unexpected things that canhappen with your career, with
your kids, your family.
I mean, so many things.
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah.
(20:40):
Can you think of a dark periodof your life where maybe there
was a failure or something thathappened that sunk you into a
really bad place mentally?
SPEAKER_00 (20:51):
Yeah, I mean, there's been lots of them.
It's the life of an entertainer.
I had a period, a particularlylow period.
One of my last bands had brokenup and then I helped a really
close friend of mine write astage show.
He was writing Romeo and Julietinto a rock opera and I did
that.
And then I hit this kind ofpatch in my career where I just
(21:14):
had nothing.
And I just felt like I wassliding into failure and there
was nothing going on and Icouldn't create anything and I
didn't know what the next thingwas that I was looking for.
And I started to feel that thisreally low point of having
nothing.
And what was I going to do?
You know, music was my life andentertaining was my life.
(21:35):
And I didn't really know whereto turn or how to kick that off.
And I remember a particular daysitting in my car and looking in
the mirror and just feeling likethe sparkle had disappeared from
my eyes.
And I know that's a kind ofweird thing to say.
And I actually, um, wrote aboutthat in a lyric in one of our
earlier songs it's called lightsand there's a line that says
you're left searching for thesparkle in your eye and i think
(21:57):
that was kind of a strangeturning point i remember crying
in the car going the spark waseven gone from my eye now what
am i going to do it was it was areally strange moment but it's
one that i find weirdlyprominent it was certainly a bit
of a moment where i went itwasn't one of those incredible
scenes in a movie where you goThis is the turning point and
(22:19):
now everything's going to gogreat.
It was just a moment that Iremember having kind of slumps
as far as I felt internally.
Yeah.
But it's something that happensrelatively often.
My job is to write music thatbears my soul, I suppose, and
then release it out to theworld.
(22:40):
And, you know...
There might be a hundredcomments that say on a song and
99 of them might be that theylove it or think it's
incredible.
But I always remember the onenegative one.
We should be focusing on the 99positive ones, but yet I don't
(23:00):
know whether it's just me orwhether it's everyone, but it's
like I'm built to fixate on thenegative, which is It's not what
I like to think that I'm about,but it's so hard not to.
SPEAKER_01 (23:12):
Well, I think also I could admit that I had this
pressure that I put on myself.
And my dad used to say, beingperfect is boring.
And I think about thatsometimes, but putting that
pressure on yourself, after awhile, we all realize that we
make mistakes, whether we likeit or not.
(23:35):
And How have you learned to copewith those situations, you know,
where you have to pick yourselfup and you've got to continue?
What is it that you do to try tocope with those feelings?
SPEAKER_00 (23:47):
In recent times, I've really started to notice
like if things start to pile upand I feel like I'm getting
overwhelmed with everything thatI have to get done to the point
where I can feel the anxietyreally creeping up or getting
stronger and stronger about whatit is that I need to do.
I found that and I kind ofalmost started to mention it
(24:08):
before that I'd never been bigat writing lists.
And I've recently realized thatif I can slow things down And I
can write a list of everythingthat I need to get done so I
don't forget stuff.
And if I start focusing on onetask at a time and taking them
off rather than being reallyfrantic and jumping around and
trying to get everything done atonce and freaking out that
(24:30):
there's too much to do.
if I can take one off at a time,I can go, all right, that's
done.
And now this list doesn't seemas big and you can slowly start
to take it off.
It can just be so hard.
I found in the, in the past to,to slow things down and just
breathe and relax and sort ofwork on taking off a task at a
time until, until the mountaindoesn't seem so mountainous, you
(24:52):
know, but it is something thathas helped a lot me recently.
And in my, my notes on mycomputer, I just, full of lists
now, which is so strange for me.
It was never a part of mypersonality or something that I
did.
SPEAKER_01 (25:06):
I think, you know, as time goes on, we develop
different techniques.
And we try so many differentthings to help us deal with
things like feeling overwhelmed.
And I do think it really helpsto write things down on a piece
of paper, something so simple,because it takes it out of our
heads and puts it on paper.
So we don't have to spiral andthink about it, you know, 100
(25:29):
times.
And then checking it off is avisual thing that you could see
that said, I accomplished this.
I don't have to think about itanymore.
So it's a simple thing, but it'sreally effective.
SPEAKER_00 (25:42):
That's absolutely right.
It's certainly something thatstarted to work for me, which
has been great.
SPEAKER_01 (25:47):
Yeah, you know, when you think about mental health,
you could think about so manydifferent solutions.
Some people use nutrition orlifestyle change.
They might try therapy,medication.
They might even try toself-medicate with drugs and
alcohol.
I mean, what else have you triedthat has either worked or not
(26:09):
worked for you?
I
SPEAKER_00 (26:12):
think that the biggest thing for me is
generally music and it's gettingon stage and getting out as much
as I possibly can.
During times in which I'vespiraled, I probably found
myself partying too much.
I mean, there were slightlydifferent times when I didn't
have two children and a hangoverhurts way more now.
(26:32):
But I'm not sure it wasessentially that I was...
I suppose it was medicating in asense.
I've always loved to party.
I've always been a really loud,extroverted person who loves
being around people.
But when you are feeling...
down and you are feeling likeyou're missing something, you
can go to try and replace thatwith partying and being out and
being around lots of people anddrinking and doing all sorts of
(26:55):
things.
But there comes a point when youstart to realize how vacuous
that can be as well.
And it was probably times in mylife where I have tried to
medicate myself or help to feelhappier about whatever I was
doing by going out and partying.
And I'm not saying that partyingis bad by any stretch of the
imagination, but there obviouslycan come a point where things
(27:18):
like that can getself-destructive.
And I started at times to feellike I was living this vacuous
life that didn't mean a hell ofa lot.
And it was probably because Iwas doing that more than
actually trying to be productiveand get things done to make
myself feel better.
So once again, it's just reallyjust sort of talking about these
things that become viciouscycles, you know, doing
(27:40):
something to fill some hole thatthen leaves you feeling worse.
And it just goes around andaround and around until you can
work out how to get off thetrain, I suppose.
SPEAKER_01 (27:50):
Yeah.
You know, you talk about yourwife and your two kids and how
life is different from thesingle life or the partying
life.
How has being married and havingyour children, when you look at
your life today, how does thatsupport your mental health?
SPEAKER_00 (28:09):
my wife's actually a trained psychotherapist which is
is quite
SPEAKER_03 (28:14):
quite convenient
SPEAKER_00 (28:15):
yeah not not that I don't think she's ever tried to
tried to well I mean she'sprobably spent our entire
existence together trying to fixme and change me but I'm kidding
she'll hear that and beabsolutely horrified but I've
noticed a lot in myself that mywife levels me out a lot you
know I've got two kids now andthey're up at 6 30 every morning
(28:37):
but Naturally, I will sit up allnight and watch something or
have another drink or just getcarried away and other stuff.
Whereas my wife helps to levelout some of my bad habits that
are probably self-destructiveand not necessarily destructive.
trying to destruct myself, butshe helps to negate a few of my
tendencies that I will naturallylean towards.
(29:00):
And it's not to be that shewould be taking away something
that I enjoy.
It's probably really helping meto survive.
SPEAKER_01 (29:09):
What are some of those things?
SPEAKER_00 (29:11):
Like predominantly that I will stay up, that I
won't go to sleep.
I'll stay up all night and watchthings or do things or I'll work
on more stuff or I'll go and,you know, clear all the emails
that I was meant to do ratherthan sleep.
And then the next day I wake upat 6, you know, the kids get up
at 6.30 and you're gone again.
You know, that just cumulativelygets worse and worse.
I mean, because you just end upso tired.
(29:33):
You know, one of the otherthings is, you know, I stopped
smoking because of– my wife andmy children stop smoking
cigarettes that's something thatI know within myself that if my
wife and my kids weren't here Iwould absolutely still be doing
that and I know it's bad for meand I know it's it's something
that I shouldn't do but it'sonly really because they're dead
(29:54):
that I don't do it which is it'ssuch a strange thing to say
probably an indictment uponmyself in certain ways but it's
basically what I'm trying to getacross is that these people have
changed me for the better andhave helped me curb some of the
tendencies that I have that areprobably not so good.
SPEAKER_01 (30:14):
Well, that's nice to acknowledge that.
And healthy relationships dothat.
And I'm sure there are reallypositive things that you bring
to the relationship that haschanged your wife and kids to
make it a much more beautiful
SPEAKER_00 (30:30):
thing.
I'd hope so.
I'm not sure they'll say thatthough.
SPEAKER_01 (30:34):
Well, now that the world is opening up, bands are
going back on tour.
And sometimes the good habitsthat we have developed, even
during the pandemic, we'vedeveloped a new routine at home,
sometimes goes out the windowwhen we go on tour.
What are some things that youwould like to do to make mental
(30:55):
health a priority while you'reon tour with your band?
SPEAKER_00 (30:59):
So my voice is a big part of my life.
If I can't sing, I'm kind ofscrewed.
And not just mentally, butphysically as well.
If I can't sing, then I can't doa show.
And if I can't do a show, thenthere's issues.
And that really plays on mymental health.
So I know that when my voice isnot going so well, when I don't
(31:20):
feel so good vocally, that thatreally does start to bring me
down.
I get anxious.
I get depressed.
I get all sorts of thingsbecause of that.
So for me going out on tour,it's trying to make sure that
when I finish a set that I'm notstaying out and partying with
everyone till four in themorning because I know that my
voice isn't going to pullthrough.
It's going to be tired and it'sgoing to be rough and it'll just
(31:43):
get worse and worse as the tourgoes on.
So it's about reminding myselfand actually just being
strong-willed enough to curb mynatural instinct to go and party
with everyone and be the life ofthe party.
and go, you know what, I can sitthis one out and go to bed and
make sure that the show tomorrowis amazing because if I do go
(32:07):
out and party, there'sdefinitely going to be a chance
that my voice isn't going towork the next day.
And then that's really going tomess with my mental health
because I'm going to bestressed.
I'm going to be anxious.
And then I'm going to bedepressed because I can't sing
as well as I should.
And I'm not going to deliverwhat I want to do for the fans.
That's a big one.
It's about being strong-willed,about curbing my natural
instincts to just go and stayout all night and party with
(32:28):
everyone.
Yeah,
SPEAKER_01 (32:31):
it does.
It takes discipline for sure.
Huge.
Yeah, you know, you and the bandhave become mental health
advocates for your fans, for themusic industry.
And although mental health isbeing talked about more in the
industry, what do you think canbe done better in regards to
(32:51):
mental health?
SPEAKER_00 (32:53):
The most important part is being able to, to, to
normalize these things and beingable to talk about it.
I mean, we talk a lot about, youknow, reaching out to people if
you're feeling down, but alsobeing, not waiting for someone
to reach out to you if you feelthat they should.
But I think we can notnecessarily fix all that, but if
we can change that and we canmake this a normal thing that
(33:16):
people go, you know what?
I'm not doing so well today.
that's going to go a long way tohelping people.
Because if we can pull thestigma away and not make people
feel demonized by the fact thatthey're going through these
things, then it's going to beincredibly helpful.
The music industry is aparticularly tricky one because
(33:36):
our job is a piece of our soulin a song and then give it to
the world and let them do whatthey will with it and trample on
it in a lot of regards.
So, you know, the It's such atough industry to protect
yourself in because you aregiving these very important
things of yourself to the world.
And with online now, people arewilling to say whatever the hell
(33:59):
they want.
And in some cases, we'll justtroll in the sense that they're
happy to say negative thingsjust to hurt people because it's
faceless.
There's a lot that needs to bedone in supporting musicians to
be able to to be able to kind oflet that go.
And I find that hard.
And I mean, I've always had arelatively thick skin, but I
(34:21):
still find it difficult that Ican see everyone's comments.
In a world in which we didn'thave comment sections and things
like that, it was a lot harderto hear the noise about what
people were saying positively ornegatively about you.
But it's all there out in theopen now.
So it's something that we haveto look at to support musicians
(34:42):
within the industry to be ableto deal with that.
And I don't know exactly whatthe answer is, but I do know
that if we can start to, tonormalize and destigmatize
mental health issues, we will beable to really bring about some
positive change.
I think.
SPEAKER_01 (34:58):
I agree.
I agree.
And I know that your band iswork with mental health
organizations like I am hope andbring people dancing.
Um, Would you be open to workingwith other organizations in the
name of mental health, or do youhave plans to do that for the
future?
Oh,
SPEAKER_00 (35:17):
big time.
Since the band's realized thatthis is something that we want
to be a part of, we'll work withanyone that will help us.
If it means we can get a messageout there, you know, I don't
necessarily think we're going tochange the world, but if we can
help to change someone's world,I think that's quite important.
I mean, the big reason for thisEP that we've talked about, the
CoLab project, It all came aboutbecause we wanted to make our
(35:41):
own mental health initiativethat will start to help with the
whole idea of being aboutnormalizing these issues and
being able to talk about them.
And that's why we've gone to toall these incredible artists
like Kellen and like TrentonWoodley of Hands Like Houses and
Sonny Sandoval of POD and gone,get involved with this.
Can you please lend yourincredible voice to these songs?
(36:03):
It's a little bit more than themusic.
And the whole idea is aboutbeing able to reach out and
connect with people.
The CoLab project is...
there's so much room for us towork with various organizations
around the world and and what wecan try and do and if there's
anything that we can do to useour voice to lend hand to to
anyone doing this amazing workthen you know we will be there
and we will do whatever we canin our power to to help and get
(36:26):
these messages out there
SPEAKER_01 (36:28):
thank you so much for that because it really does
make a difference i mean itsounds corny to say you know if
you can change one life, but onelife could have been Chester
Bennington of Lincoln Park orChris Cornell of Soundgarden or
whatever.
Anybody, one of your fans out inthe audience.
I mean, everybody's life isimportant.
And once they know that there'shope and someone like yourself
(36:51):
has figured out solutions todeal with anxiety and
depression, that they can go outand find their own solutions.
And we have our website,checkyourheadpodcast.com, where
we have over 110 differentorganizations and nonprofits,
apps, telehealth, so thatpeople, once they...
realize they need help they canstart trying different solutions
(37:14):
to see what works for thembecause everybody's different
and the cause of mental healthcan be so many different reasons
so you've got to really find outwhat the core of the reason is.
SPEAKER_00 (37:25):
Absolutely.
And that's just it.
We're all different.
And your version of a mentalhealth struggle is probably
different to mine.
Our chemical makeup isdifferent.
So something that'll work for meis not necessarily going to work
for everyone.
And I definitely don't have theanswers for how to fix these
things.
But I do know that if we cantalk about it, then people are
(37:45):
going to feel more comfortabletrying to find their own
solutions.
They're going to seek help.
Whatever it is that that helpsyou get through these things and
helps you find your ability totalk or seek help, whether it be
music, whatever it is.
Use it.
Use whatever you can becausethese things are normal.
Let's make them normal.
That's a huge part of what it isthat we need to do here is make
people understand that they'renot broken.
(38:09):
They're not wrong.
They're not weak.
Let's stop beating ourselves upabout them and give yourself a
break.
It's something that we need totalk about and we need to fix
together.
SPEAKER_01 (38:21):
Right, right.
And it's not their fault, but itis their responsibility to find
help.
SPEAKER_00 (38:27):
That's
SPEAKER_01 (38:27):
right.
And oftentimes it does take openenergy to do that.
So thank you for providing thatbecause that is what you are
providing is hope, which is soimportant.
Next, Kat Jensen and I will talkabout perfectionism and how this
can often derail musicians, yetif recognized, can be tamed to
help you reach your goals.
(38:48):
Kat Jensen is a musician,formerly of the band Love Toys,
living with mood disorders andcurrently achieving her dream of
getting her college degree.
Now let's hear Kat Jensen and Italk about the dangers of
perfectionism.
Well, today we have Kat Jensen,one of my favorite friends and
musicians.
Welcome, Kat.
SPEAKER_02 (39:08):
Hey Mari, how are you?
It's so great to be here.
And before we get started, Iknow that we have
congratulations in order for youand for Check Your Head Mental
Health for Musicians on thePeople's Choice Award.
I'm so happy that the message isgetting out to those that really
can use it.
SPEAKER_01 (39:29):
Thank you so much.
I mean, I was really thrilled.
But today we're going to betalking about perfectionism.
Michael Murphy of Written byWolves really talked a lot about
how perfectionism kind of creepsinto his day-to-day work.
SPEAKER_02 (39:47):
A lot of the perfectionism that he has dealt
with has caused him to besuccessful in his craft.
It has given him motivation topursue, to hone his craft.
craft as a musician.
The downside though, is, isthere are parts of perfectionism
where it becomes large.
It becomes so big, like thevolume becomes so loud that it's
(40:10):
almost like you get thisdistorted feedback going in your
head and now you get paralyzed.
So it's a matter of honing that,bringing the volume down and
being able to see a bit moreclearly and help that become a
tool, not something that's goingto get in your way.
SPEAKER_01 (40:28):
Right.
We're going to talk about thedangers of perfectionism.
And one of the things thatMichael talked about is if you
have this desire to be the bestall the time, that's a very high
goal, especially when learningsomething new is built on making
(40:49):
mistakes.
I mean, to me, making mistakes,once we think about those and
try to figure out what is goingto work.
It's almost like a buildingblock toward getting to your
goal.
SPEAKER_02 (41:02):
That's true.
That's an interesting thing thatyou point out because for you,
you have a very fluid mindset.
You have what we call growthmindset.
And that allows people to lookat challenges and be able to
say, okay, well, maybe thisdidn't work this time, but
(41:25):
Something better is around thecorner.
They can become more optimisticabout growing from what they've
just gone through.
But see, many people are wiredwith a fixed mindset, and
oftentimes people who haveperfectionism have more of a
fixed mindset.
They tend to feel that thetalent is inborn.
(41:46):
It's sort of part of you.
So fixed mindsets tend to lookat every criticism.
They have a very hard timegrowing from what they've
learned.
They focus more on thenegativity that comes from it
because they feel they should bealready great.
They should already be able tohit these high milestones or
(42:10):
these benchmarks that they havein their minds.
And like you said, you can neverget to that point because it's
so...
elevated, it's unrealistic.
SPEAKER_01 (42:22):
Right.
And then if you always have thatgoal of having everything turn
out perfectly, which it neverdoes, whenever something
happens, then all that negativetalk starts to come into your
head like, oh my gosh, I'm sostupid.
What a fool I am.
I can't believe I did that.
(42:42):
And you just go down a downwardspiral.
Yeah.
The other thing, too, is thatwhen you're in a creative field,
you can go on forever to perfector change or add something, take
something out.
So that's why it's so importantto have deadlines.
SPEAKER_02 (43:02):
Deadlines are a fantastic strategy to finally
say, you know, I'm going to giveit this much attention.
And then I'm not going to worrymy head anymore and go from
there.
I love the idea of setting uplists if you have to, because
you might have a million thingsyou're worried about, and then
(43:22):
it becomes overwhelming.
It's one big, huge thing.
So the idea is to break thingsdown into more doable pieces,
right?
That eases the anxiety that goesalong with it, too.
SPEAKER_01 (43:36):
Well, it also takes out all of the worry from your
head.
I mean, I know that I wake up inthe middle of the night, can't
get to sleep.
You're worrying.
You're thinking about things.
Maybe you have ideas.
Putting them all down on paper,it has it so that you can start
checking those items off.
And Michael says that he usesthese lists.
(43:58):
And I do too.
It's such a simple thing.
But every time you see somethingdifferent, marked off, it does
feel like accomplishment.
You can feel yourself movingtowards your goal.
SPEAKER_02 (44:10):
Sure.
Absolutely.
I keep what I call the generaljournal.
It's just filled with all kindsof things.
I have an external place to putthoughts or feelings or even
pieces of songs or I just puteverything down into this and I
keep it by my bed because I dowake up in the middle of the
(44:32):
night often with these travelingthoughts and just jotting them
down can give you a little senseof relief like you've got it
somewhere
SPEAKER_01 (44:39):
yeah so the dangers of perfectionism one thing about
procrastination if you're alwaysthinking about the failure that
can happen with a mistake itjust makes you not want to do it
You're just trying to avoid thatbecause you know inevitably
there is going to be a mistake.
SPEAKER_02 (44:58):
That can be very terrifying, especially with
anybody that not only has issueswith perfectionism but may have
some social anxiety.
Making sure that everybodythinks everything's great is so
important.
They take any criticism verytough, especially in this
business.
There are some real things to beworried about out there.
(45:21):
When you're a musician, you'revulnerable.
you're you're out there on stageyou've got your original music
and within seconds the audienceis going to decide whether they
like you or they don't and andif it's a good night or and
everything's going that'sfantastic but there's always the
fear of another night that wherethings aren't right and you got
(45:42):
to keep up face and you'reworried about what people are
going to think and sometimesthose feelings are so
overwhelming that someone willsay screw it i'm just not I'm
not going to take that gig.
And it can come to the pointwhere people are very talented
and then they isolate.
They don't want to do more.
So the procrastination may looklike laziness.
(46:06):
It might look like you don'tcare.
It might look like you'd rathergo party.
It might look like those things.
But the underlying current isthat fear of failure and the
anxiety that it brings on.
SPEAKER_01 (46:20):
And indecisiveness is another thing.
I used to be with somebody whohad this perfectionism
personality, and he would alwayswant me to make the decisions.
And after a while, it getstiring.
But it's because if somethinggoes wrong with that decision,
the blame or punishment theyperceive in their mind is not on
(46:42):
them.
It's on somebody else.
SPEAKER_02 (46:45):
Right?
It's all your fault now.
SPEAKER_01 (46:47):
Yeah.
But another danger is they putlimits on their life because
they tend to do the same thingsover and over because they know
the outcome.
They know how to do it.
And when they're presented withsomething new, there could be a
freak out period or angerbecause they don't want to go
(47:08):
through the process of makingmistakes to finally learn how to
do something new.
SPEAKER_02 (47:13):
Right.
And there's a lot of criticalthinking in there when it comes
to people with these tendenciescan often have trouble in
relationships because they bringthat critical element to the
table where nothing will satisfythem even though they may not be
making the decision they've leftit to you they're going to
(47:34):
criticize the decision thatyou've made because again
there's perfectionism that can'tbe met
SPEAKER_01 (47:42):
Or they may be putting their perfectionist ways
onto you, expecting you to alsohave that attitude of
perfectionism.
And that's a lot of anxiety anda lot of pressure.
You know, sometimes kids grow upwith parents that may be giving
them love or attention by theirachievements, opposed to who
(48:05):
they are as kids.
Or maybe they're being severelypunished because of a mistake.
that anyone can make.
I mean, these are things thatcan happen where These fear of
failure is kind of embeddedearly on.
But yes, relationship problemscan definitely happen.
All of this anxiety or anger andfear can come out to the other
(48:29):
person.
And it's usually the peopleclosest to us that we love the
most because there's a trustthere.
SPEAKER_02 (48:35):
Yeah, it's a safer place to be, isn't it?
Because we've learned that,well, they'll still accept me
and they'll forgive me.
And I know that Michael talkedabout his wife.
One thing that I started to do
SPEAKER_01 (49:07):
with my boyfriend...
to kind of encourage thepositive.
Because, you know, human nature,we tend to fixate on the
negative.
And Michael talked about thattoo.
It's like the one social mediacomment that was negative, he's
thinking about that opposed tothe hundred that he got that was
positive.
So what we've been doing is westart off talking about
(49:30):
something that we enjoyed aboutour day, something positive, but
also something that we wereproud of that we did, whether
it's work or play or withsomebody else, just something so
that we could feel good aboutourselves.
Because I do think a lot ofthese issues come from really
(49:50):
not loving ourselves for who weare, with all the flaws and all
the good and all the bad and allthe terrible stuff that happens
in our lives, to accept all ofthat.
We also talk about any fears orconcerns or just topics in
general.
I mean, a topic could be anupcoming vacation or it could be
a fear.
(50:10):
Like, I'm afraid of what's goingto happen next year when you go
on tour and I'm going to be herealone.
You know, things like that.
And then also ending withsomething that we appreciate
about each other.
And it could be something verysimple, like you made...
Such an amazing dinner for metonight when you knew I was
(50:32):
under pressure with thisdeadline.
And I really appreciate that.
It shows me how much you careand love me.
SPEAKER_02 (50:39):
Right.
So now we're focusing on anotherthing that we can do that can
give some positivereinforcement, right?
And that's a really good tool tohave in your toolbox as well,
changing that critical voice.
And all it takes is are thesepositive affirmations.
And believe me, these can havesuch a significant impact on
(51:02):
your daily life.
Anywhere from helping tochallenge those negative
thoughts that come into yourmind, you're going to come back
and And say, you know what?
Screw you.
Quit telling me I can't do this.
I can do this.
I can do this well.
And I'm good enough.
And whatever I do is enough.
So use affirmations towardsyourself for that critical
(51:25):
voice.
Use the positive affirmationstowards your family, your loved
ones, so that you gain support.
Because support is so ultimatelyimportant.
We need to keep things on thepositive side because we do tend
to go toward the negative.
So these little things mightseem funny, might seem silly.
I'm going to talk back to myselfthat way.
(51:46):
But they work.
And so if you have something inyour life that can work, just
keep doing it.
Keep doing it.
Because you're going to form newneural pathways in your brain
that are going to support all ofthe positivity.
Most of us go down the negativeroute so long that the synapses
in our brain, they continuallygo down that same pathway and
(52:10):
the old tapes just keep goingand you go back right through
that cycle.
Just the cycle of Depression,anxiety, perfectionism, all of
it that's like a chicken or eggroutine here.
I'm telling you, I can do thisso well that, I mean, my head
gets so scrambled up.
It's like I've got nothing butscrambled eggs in my head.
(52:33):
I can make an omelet, man.
Breaking it down.
Positive thinking.
SPEAKER_01 (52:39):
That makes perfect sense.
And the thing that I reallyloved about what you said is to
create new ways of thinkingbecause we get so caught up in
the automatic loop that happensthat it's almost like a fish
swimming upstream.
To continue to practice, to bepositive, be encouraging, be
supportive.
(53:00):
I mean, I love telling people.
my friends, what I love aboutthem, what I really appreciate
about them.
And you wouldn't believe howmany are so surprised and
shocked.
You do
SPEAKER_02 (53:12):
do that.
You get it with me too.
And I just, I love it.
So it feels really good on bothends.
SPEAKER_01 (53:18):
So another one that we want to talk about is a
danger is the health problemsthat could happen when all of
this stress builds in our life.
We talked about insomnia, youknow, headaches, We talked about
mood disorders, also physicaldisorders like heart disease and
diabetes.
(53:39):
But one thing I really want totalk about is how stress causes
this elevation of cortisol,causes this adrenaline in our
bodies that's not supposed to bethere 24-7.
It's supposed to be there forthose moments that we really
need it when we need to run awayfrom a speeding car that's about
to hit us.
SPEAKER_02 (54:00):
It's that fight or flight when you're about to
encounter a bear or something.
It goes way back to what'singrained in us, probably
evolutionary, because there wasa time when man did have to
fight all of those things.
But now your body doesn't knowthe difference between whether a
bear is chasing us or the touris all screwed up because of
(54:23):
COVID or whatever it is.
SPEAKER_01 (54:25):
Right.
And then one after the other,like you're rehearsing and then
something goes wrong.
bad with rehearsal.
You're thinking about yourfamily, being away from them.
There's so many things that keepus with this go, go, go life
that even if we're having a goodtime, this adrenaline and
cortisol that's coursing throughour bodies for too long starts
(54:48):
to build up.
And that's when people burn out.
And burnout could look likeanxiety, can look like a panic
attack, can look likedepression.
And it's almost your body's wayof saying, you know what, I've
had enough.
We're going to put you down fora while until you can get
better.
SPEAKER_02 (55:05):
That forces you to stop, right?
I mean, sometimes stress is oneof these things where we don't
always know how the degree itmight be affecting us.
Some people live off of stress.
They love to get out there, bethe life of the party, like
Michael said, or get out thereand just run, run, run, do
everything.
But that stress can build up andwe don't realize what's
(55:29):
happening within our own bodies.
We don't hear what the messageis until it smacks us in the
face.
So Yeah, and cortisol isbasically a hormone.
It's a hormone that everybodysecretes, but the levels can
just get too high when you'reunder chronic stress and
something's going to explode.
(55:50):
And hopefully it's not yourheart or you become diabetic or
you have a stroke.
I mean, these are all thingsthat are really attached to the
lack of being able to recognizeand deal effectively in a
healthy way.
stress because we live in asociety where sometimes stress
(56:13):
is rewarded oh i worked overtimeand i got this big project or
let's work harder let's go youknow and and not being able to
to recognize that your bodyneeds to be nurtured but you got
to learn how to take care ofyourself and recognize the
science
SPEAKER_01 (56:32):
and making your physical and mental health a
priority because that really isthe foundation of your life, a
big foundation.
And we talked about professionaltherapy, but there are other
kinds of therapy that we canutilize with our family, with
our friends, with maybe amentor, someone that we admire,
(56:52):
how they're living their life.
Talking things out and talkingthings through with people
really is a wonderful way tovent and to get advice from
someone else and also anopportunity to share your story
and what's really going on inyour life.
I mean, these hiccups andsometimes tornadoes in our life
(57:14):
can really be the things thatcan help bond us together.
Because we all know that goingthrough something difficult with
somebody and getting through theother side and getting better,
there's a special bond thathappens.
And people really appreciatehonesty, vulnerability.
It's really the glue thatconnects us.
(57:37):
And it could be really withanyone.
SPEAKER_02 (57:39):
Yeah.
And it's important to point outhere, too, that when we are
not...
coping with things in a healthyway, it's very easy to isolate.
Isolating yourself is definitelya big sign and you want to
realize that if I start doingthat, maybe it's time to get out
(58:00):
of my comfort zone and find afriend, talk to someone.
Actually, there are supportgroups out there and just
allowing yourself to bevulnerable enough to get out and
just mingle and get the focusoff yourself and realize that
other people are dealing withthese things too.
It could help you realize thatyou're not that alone.
So find your way of gainingconnection.
(58:24):
Find your way of gainingsupport.
12-step programs are wonderful.
Listen, you don't have to be analcoholic to practice the 12
steps.
There's a lot of principles inthere that are great.
There's 12 steps for everything.
It can help get you connectedwith others that are feeling
similar feelings.
And this can get you out ofyourself and get you in a better
(58:47):
place.
SPEAKER_01 (58:49):
And, you know, one thing that you said about
support groups, there issomething really special that
happens when you are able tohelp somebody else.
And then also when you're ableto accept help from somebody
else, there's a great energythat happens.
To me, it's like the circle oflife, being able to give help
and receive help because we allneed help.
(59:11):
And, you know, we can't knoweverything.
And when it comes to a mooddisorder, we really want to hear
from people that have hadexperience or from professionals
who also have experience withothers in different treatments
and therapies.
SPEAKER_02 (59:26):
I mean, for myself, therapies helped a great deal.
There are millions of thingsthat you could do, but it just
takes the one thing is yourwillingness to step out there
into the unknown and to do it.
SPEAKER_01 (59:40):
Right.
And to expect that, you knowwhat, we're going to make
mistakes and mistakes are thebuilding block of success.
And to accept ourselves for whowe are and that we all have
flaws in some way.
And those flaws make usbeautiful.
Those flaws connect with eachother.
And to me, it's the color oflife to be able to see all the
(01:00:02):
good, see the bad and try tomake the best of our lives and
accept and love each other forwho we are.
Exactly.
SPEAKER_02 (01:00:10):
Let's rev up that toolbox.
SPEAKER_01 (01:00:13):
A big thank you to our musical guest, Michael
Murphy of Written by Wolves, andour musician health expert, Kat
Jensen.
For more information on Writtenby Wolves and to purchase the
collab project EP, visitwrittenbywolves.com, follow the
band on their socials, atWritten by Wolves, and stay
tuned to hear a clip of Help MeThrough the Night, featuring
(01:00:34):
Kellen Quinn of Sleeping withSirens.
So until next time.
Be brave, ask for help, and bepersistent in finding the mental
help that you need.
(01:01:16):
Check Your Head Podcast iskindly supported and partnered
with Sweet Relief MusiciansFund, DBSA San Gabriel Valley,
Ear Shop Media, and Lemon TreeStudios in Los Angeles.
Visit checkyourheadpodcast.comwhere we have over 100 solutions
for mental health.
Be our friends on social mediaat Check Your Head Podcast.
(01:01:36):
Watch us on YouTube and supportus with a kind donation on
checkyourheadpodcast.com.
Check Your Head podcast issponsored by a 501c3 nonprofit
with all donations being taxdeductible.
Thank you for your support andthank you for listening.
Welcome to the Check Your Head podcast, the podcast
where notable musicians andexperts share their stories and
solutions for mental health andwellness.
I'm your host, Mari Fong, amusic journalist and life coach
for musicians, and we are in themonth of October, a month full
of mental health celebrations.
(00:21):
World Mental Health Day is onOctober 10th, and October is
also National ADHD AwarenessMonth, as well as National
Depression and Mental HealthScreening Month.
And the first step in gettingbetter is to get tested.
So visitCheckYourHeadPodcast.com, where
we've just added a link whereyou can get immediate and
anonymous online screening for avariety of mental health
(00:42):
conditions.
Simply click on the MentalHealth for Everyone page to find
these fun, free, and informativetests.
Next, I'm thrilled to announcethat the Check Your Head Mental
Health for Musicians podcast haswon a 2021 People's Choice
Podcast Award for Best AsianHosted Podcast.
I'm especially proud of this winafter discovering that thousands
(01:04):
of podcast listeners from aroundthe world voted from a choice of
10 podcasts, with the majoritychoosing the Check Your Head
podcast for the win.
So thank you so much for that.
It feels really good to knowthat all those late nights
editing and working mostly bymyself have been noticed by
listeners just like you.
Now to our featured guests.
(01:26):
Today we have New Zealand'shighest streaming rock band
having first dropped their debutalbum, Secrets, in 2019 and just
dropped the Collab Project EPlast month, September 2021,
which includes an initiative tonormalize the conversations on
mental health.
And today we're going to do justthat with Michael Murphy, lead
singer of the rock band Writtenby Wolves.
(01:47):
We'll also be playing a clip oftheir song, Help Me Through the
Night, featuring Kellen Quinn ofthe band Sleeping with Sirens, a
song that was inspired byMichael Murphy's own anxiety and
depression.
The CoLab Project EP featuresheavy hitters like Sonny
Sandoval of POD, who are alsomental health advocates, all
singing to normalize theconversations on mental health,
(02:08):
as we do here on the Check YourHead podcast.
Next, musician Kat Jensen and Iwill talk about perfectionism, a
trait that Michael Murphy andother musicians can possess, and
how it can work for or againstyou.
You may remember Kat Jensen asour first musician interview on
the Check Your Head podcast.
She is also the lead singer ofthe 90s band Love Toys, having
(02:29):
toured and worked with bandslike Motley Crue, No Doubt, Don
Henley of the Eagles, and theone and only Paul McCartney.
Kat Jensen brings her uniqueperspective as a musician and
also one who lives withdepression, anxiety, and PTSD.
But first, let's hear MichaelMurphy of Written by Wolves
share his story.
(02:50):
We have Michael Murphy here,lead singer and songwriter from
New Zealand, straight from NewZealand here, live.
And you have the CoLab ProjectEP that's going to drop
September 17th, 2021.
So I'm super excited about that.
Thank you so much also for beingan advocate for mental health.
(03:11):
But I wanted to start with yoursingle, which is Help Me Through
the Night, and it featuresKellen Quinn from Sleeping with
Sirens.
And you mentioned the black dogof anxiety in the lyrics.
I was wondering, what's beenyour experience with anxiety or
mental health in general?
SPEAKER_00 (03:28):
Yeah, I mean, that was a lyric that kind of came
about with myself trying tobe...
more open and as honest aspossible with my songwriting.
And that particular song, thewhole idea was to try and give
the sense of an anxiety attackin the song in some way, shape
or form.
And we actually tried to mirrorthat with the video a little bit
(03:50):
as well.
That particular song was anattempt for me to try and talk
about not only anxiety, but totry and talk about the fact that
we need to start talking aboutthese things.
Hence the title, Help Me Throughthe Night.
The metaphor is that depression,anxiety, and mental health
issues are the night,essentially.
It's the dark place.
It's the thing that we try andhide from.
(04:13):
Going back and touching more onmy story, as far as mental
health issues go, depression andanxiety are something that I've
always dealt with and alwaysstruggled with, I suppose.
It's only really recently thatI've learned to understand that
a little bit more.
And probably now that I canunderstand that, it kind of
(04:34):
answers some questions from thepast when you look at things
that have happened and gone,okay, that's what I was going
through then.
That's what that was.
I mean, as a musician, and thisis what I've done all my life,
I've always put a huge amount ofscrutiny on myself and pressure
on myself to be successful.
There's obviously a huge sideeffect to that.
(04:55):
The more pressure you have, themore chance that you sort of
leave yourselves open to thingslike anxiety and depression.
And I think for me, it's alwaysbeen a bit of a vicious cycle.
The busier I get and the moreworried I get about things or
the more I start to see Theamount of things piling up that
I need to get done in order tomake something be successful,
(05:17):
the more anxious I become.
The more anxious I become, themore I take it out on the people
that I love the most.
And I might be angry orirritable or just so stressed
and overwhelmed in a situationthat I...
become someone that I don't likeand that obviously is always
reflected and it always affectsthe ones that I love the most,
(05:39):
my wife and my kids and myfamily closest to me.
When that happens, that's whenthe depression starts to happen
because I hate the fact thatI've become like that and I
start to feel guilty and badthat I'm doing that and becoming
that person.
And so the cycle just continues.
And then the more I step intothat, then the more behind I
get, the more I have no energyto achieve the tasks that I have
(06:04):
to achieve.
I've recently taken a more of amanagement role within the band.
And I feel like I've got a lotof people's hopes and things
riding on me to make rightdecisions and to make sure that
I keep things moving.
And, you know, add to that thepressures of, you know, of a
family and trying to keep allthe balls juggling in the air
and trying to keep them all upin the air.
(06:26):
You know, the more that happens,the more stressed I become, the
more stressed I become, the moreanxious I become, the more
anxious I become, the moreirritable I become, the more
irritable I become.
the more depressed I become.
And it just, it continues.
And it goes round and round andround.
And I never really envisagedthat I would be able to talk
about that because the more thatI talk about that, and certainly
(06:49):
in times past, I would have notwanted anyone to know that.
I would have not wanted to sharethat with anyone.
And it's only very recently thatI've been able to do that
because I've forced myself to, Isuppose.
Because I thought it was weak.
And I thought, you know, I'vealways had this persona of being
in control and being reallyconfident and being able to get
(07:09):
things done and being able tosort of make things happen and
be the fun guy in the process ofdoing it.
It's only recently that I'vestarted to understand and to
realize it's not weak at all.
It's such a normal thing.
And these things are all thingsthat we're going through.
But yet we've created thissociety that stigmatizes that
stuff and doesn't allow us tosee it as a normal thing.
(07:30):
You know, if I had a brokenarmy, rather than any of those
struggles, people wouldunderstand and they'd be able to
see it.
But yet it's just not seen.
It's invisible.
It just becomes a part of you.
So, you know, There's not manypeople out there that aren't
affected by these things oraren't touched by these things.
And I think that's somethingthat we've all taken a while to
realize because we're all hidingit and we've all been taught to
(07:53):
keep that away and not let thatout and not talk about it.
So then you do have people likemyself in the past who will find
that as a weakness to be able toshow it or will find that as
something that they shouldn't beallowed to share.
And it's just this viciousnever-ending cycle that we have
to change and break down thestigma and normalize.
SPEAKER_01 (08:13):
Right.
And that's that's really a keything is to normalize the
conversation, which is whatwe're doing right now.
You know, one thing you said wasthat there was a moment where
you decided to start talkingabout it.
And sometimes there's anincident that happens or maybe
an aha moment where you're like,OK, I'm going to talk about
(08:36):
this.
What was that for you?
SPEAKER_00 (08:39):
I mean, obviously not liking the person I've
become toward my family.
That's a big part for me.
I've got two young children, afive-year-old and a
two-year-old, and I don't wantto be that for them.
I don't want to be this personthat's grumpy and irritable all
the time.
So that's obviously been a bigtrigger in recent times.
However, probably the biggesttrigger for me to start talking
(09:03):
about these things and open uphas been the fans of our band,
the fans of Written by Wolves.
We started receiving messagesjust all the time, daily almost,
from people sharing their storywith us and telling us what our
music meant to them and what ithad done to help them through
whatever they were goingthrough.
And in some cases, they wouldsuggest that it had saved their
(09:25):
lives, which made me realize,especially once we saw more and
more of them and they started tocome through so thick and fast,
I realized that I was in thisincredibly lucky and privileged
position where I have thisability to be able to help
people through these situations.
But these were all people thatwere maybe sharing their story
(09:47):
with us, but weren't able toshare it with other people.
You know, felt that they wereoutcast in some way because of
how they felt.
And I was so touched by the factthat our music had done that for
them that...
myself and the rest of the bandall decided that it had to be
something that we had to do moreof, that we had to push further
(10:08):
on.
We were in this position wherewe could help people.
So you're never doing enough.
And I decided that it wasimportant for me to show them
that I could talk about thesethings too.
If they were brave enough toshare their stories with me and
to tell them what I'd managed todo for them, it was important
that I was brave enough to starttalking about these things.
(10:30):
And I know when we startedwriting and I brought that into
my songwriting and started totalk about these things a lot
more, I feel like there were alot of people around me that
were slightly shocked.
Not because of the subjectmatter, just realizing that
these things happen.
That's part of the stigma.
It's seen as such a bad thing.
Oh no, that's happened to thatperson.
(10:51):
But it's a normal thing and wehave to normalize it.
SPEAKER_01 (10:55):
Well, I was listening to a video that you
put out and you mentioned thatmusic was therapy for you and
that oftentimes the emotions youweren't able to talk about you
were able to write about andsing about in your music and
that was an outlet for you whicha lot of musicians you know the
(11:17):
first time they picked up aguitar or got into music was
sometimes during a difficulttime in life where they needed
that outlet when you look backwas that true for you or
SPEAKER_00 (11:29):
absolutely even before i knew that i was writing
on purpose to to to help to getthings out and to use it as a
form of therapy i was alreadydoing that and i might in the
past have buried things a lotmore but nowadays i try and make
it as clear i suppose aspossible but i now know more
(11:50):
that is a form of therapy for meand it is a way to to get across
thoughts that i definitely havestruggled with and internalizing
it and finding it difficult totalk to people with you know and
and even talk to peopleincredibly close to me about
these things um that's somethingthat's really really helped me
and looking back you did rightit's definitely something that
(12:11):
i've always done then and thensometimes i might have gone and
let off every ounce of steaminside me on stage or gone into
a studio and screamed my lungsout or something like that until
I felt like the emotion wascoming across and I maybe let it
out.
I mean, I know there's all sortsof forms of release and therapy
(12:31):
in which people do things.
People might want to go for arun or they might want to go
cook a meal or something likethat.
For me, even just the act ofsinging is something that is
really, really helpful for me.
SPEAKER_01 (12:43):
You know, I'm always curious because musicians seem
to feel a lot more comfortableletting their emotions out in
their music, let's say, opposedto talking about it, even with a
friend or therapist.
Why do you think it's easier tolet it out in music opposed to,
you know, your own words?
SPEAKER_00 (13:03):
There's probably a few reasons, and I'm not sure
that I'll get any of theseentirely correct, and I'm not
sure there's a right or wronganswer here, but it's sometimes
easier.
I mean, firstly, this is what Ido.
It's what I've always done.
Singing and music is somethingthat I feel incredibly
comfortable with.
Songwriting is something thatI've always loved and I've
(13:24):
always used as a form ofexpression.
When I do tackle something thatis difficult, to talk about.
It's like a natural form ofdoing that for me.
It's something that just comesnaturally.
So that in turn, it makes iteasier.
Not that talking is not naturalfor me as well.
I suppose that's something I'vebeen doing a while too.
But there's also almost a veilof secrecy there a little bit in
(13:47):
a song.
It's something to hide behind.
It can be less confronting.
I could write a song and there'sstill an aura of secrecy about
it.
You might not immediately thinkI'm writing about myself or you
might not know exactly what itis I'm talking about.
Or I can just use a lot ofmetaphor and things like that
and hide things in it.
So I suppose it becomes a littlebit of a safety blanket in a
(14:11):
sense.
It's a way to say these thingsthat we're possibly
internalizing.
But we've still got a little bitof something to hold on to.
It's not as raw and as open asme saying to you, I'm suffering
from depression and anxiety.
Even just saying that right nowfelt really, really confronting
to me.
But if I wrote that in a song,it wouldn't feel that way as
(14:34):
much anyway.
SPEAKER_01 (14:35):
Yeah, that was a great explanation.
It's funny because you mentionedsecrets.
And you actually have an albumcalled called Secrets.
And this collab EP is kind of areimagined version of Secrets,
right?
With the same songs, but you'recollaborating with different
artists.
(14:57):
But on that album, there was asong called Tell Me What You're
Running From.
How do you relate to thosewords?
What are you running from?
SPEAKER_00 (15:05):
So the whole idea around that song was about being
honest with myself.
And that's the beauty of musicas well.
It's like I might writesomething for myself, but I know
it's there for everyone else andthat they can take from it what
they will.
It's going to mean somethingdifferent to me, but it's also
going to mean somethingdifferent to you.
For me, it was about Just tryingto be honest with myself, like
(15:27):
you're allowed to quit, you'reallowed to do whatever you want,
but just make sure you're honestwith yourself as to why it is
that you're doing those things.
That was what the lesson was formyself.
Really just trying to be honestwith why you're making these
particular decisions andwhatever those decisions might
be, rather than kind of hidingbehind any sort of excuse or
(15:49):
thing like that, being honestwith yourself was really the
road I was trying to go downwith that one.
SPEAKER_01 (15:56):
I see.
You talked about depression andhow anxiety can sometimes spiral
into depression.
Can you give me some of thesymptoms that you had?
And actually, when did you firststart to notice?
How old were you when you firststarted to notice symptoms of
anxiety and depression?
SPEAKER_00 (16:17):
I mean, it's hard for me to narrow down an age or
anything like that.
From a very, very, very youngage, I had very high
expectations of myself.
I've always been an entertainerand I've always been a
performer.
And I always had this realoverriding urge to be the best.
And the older I've got, the moreI've started to realize that's
(16:40):
not necessarily a thing thatactually exists in any way,
shape or form.
I come from a small town in NewZealand, which on a global scale
is tiny.
And I always liked the fairytale idea that I could come from
this place and be the best.
And I'm not even really surewhat what I envisaged.
It's really just success.
(17:01):
And I always really drove myselfto be very, very successful in
whatever it was that I wasdoing, whether it was music or
acting or sports or anythinglike that.
And I think there comes a pointwhere that pressure just starts
to really take its toll on you.
And a lot of that pressure wascoming from myself.
I was always relatively good atdealing with it, but looking
(17:22):
back now, there was a lot ofanxiety, whether it's around
just a performance or it'saround exams at high school,
whether it's around any And alot of that anxiety always came
from me, not from the fear ofthe actual thing itself, not
from the fear of the performanceor the fear of the exam or the
fear of the sports game orwhatever.
It was more around the fear ofdoing well.
(17:45):
I didn't want to just do it.
I wanted to be the best at it.
That's when the anxieties that Iprobably faced and sleepless
nights and really worrying aboutall those sorts of things.
And then obviously, thedepression that can come with
failure.
And I think as musicians andentertainers, that's something
(18:05):
that we deal with a lot.
And I know failure is like abroad term because it can be so
subjective and objective, butit's something that is going to
go hand in hand with anyonewho's putting themselves out
there or working in an industrywhere you're open to judgment
and you're open to not beingreceived.
overly well or is being receivedin a lesser way than what your
(18:29):
expectations may be.
So looking back, that'ssomething I probably always had
to deal with.
And I certainly can remember,especially the anxiety that came
with it and how crippling thatcould be.
SPEAKER_01 (18:42):
You know, you mentioned an anxiety attack and
quite a few musicians have panicattacks.
I was wondering, what does thatlook like to you?
Do you have panic attacks oranxiety attacks?
SPEAKER_00 (18:53):
Yeah, I think like, Anxiety attacks, for me, they
generally come when I feel likethings have built up so much and
I feel like there are so manythings going on that I need to
do or that it gets to the pointwhere I feel like it's getting
out of my control.
I was never a big list writer.
(19:14):
I would generally just keeptasks in my head and I would
tick them off as I'd go and Iwould just really rely on my
memory and ability to get thesethings done and get them done
quickly.
So I think...
The most prominent anxietyattacks for me is when I feel
like this pile of things, thismetaphorical pile of tasks that
I have to get done, whether itbe things that I've got to take
(19:35):
off for the band for gettingreleases happening or work stuff
at home or pressures with havingto get stuff done for the
family.
Once that piles up and gets sointense, I get to this point
where I feel like I just can'tcope anymore and I'm at this
breaking point of anxiety.
I can't do all this.
I cannot do it.
What am I going to do?
How do I get this done?
How do I achieve this?
(19:55):
And it just becomes thisall-consuming thing, which then
becomes so difficult becauseI've got two kids now.
I can't just break down and juststop.
SPEAKER_01 (20:04):
Let me tell you, I raised two daughters while
working full-time, the wholething.
And so I totally understand therollercoaster of emotions and so
many unexpected things that canhappen with your career, with
your kids, your family.
I mean, so many things.
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah.
(20:40):
Can you think of a dark periodof your life where maybe there
was a failure or something thathappened that sunk you into a
really bad place mentally?
SPEAKER_00 (20:51):
Yeah, I mean, there's been lots of them.
It's the life of an entertainer.
I had a period, a particularlylow period.
One of my last bands had brokenup and then I helped a really
close friend of mine write astage show.
He was writing Romeo and Julietinto a rock opera and I did
that.
And then I hit this kind ofpatch in my career where I just
(21:14):
had nothing.
And I just felt like I wassliding into failure and there
was nothing going on and Icouldn't create anything and I
didn't know what the next thingwas that I was looking for.
And I started to feel that thisreally low point of having
nothing.
And what was I going to do?
You know, music was my life andentertaining was my life.
(21:35):
And I didn't really know whereto turn or how to kick that off.
And I remember a particular daysitting in my car and looking in
the mirror and just feeling likethe sparkle had disappeared from
my eyes.
And I know that's a kind ofweird thing to say.
And I actually, um, wrote aboutthat in a lyric in one of our
earlier songs it's called lightsand there's a line that says
you're left searching for thesparkle in your eye and i think
(21:57):
that was kind of a strangeturning point i remember crying
in the car going the spark waseven gone from my eye now what
am i going to do it was it was areally strange moment but it's
one that i find weirdlyprominent it was certainly a bit
of a moment where i went itwasn't one of those incredible
scenes in a movie where you goThis is the turning point and
(22:19):
now everything's going to gogreat.
It was just a moment that Iremember having kind of slumps
as far as I felt internally.
Yeah.
But it's something that happensrelatively often.
My job is to write music thatbears my soul, I suppose, and
then release it out to theworld.
(22:40):
And, you know...
There might be a hundredcomments that say on a song and
99 of them might be that theylove it or think it's
incredible.
But I always remember the onenegative one.
We should be focusing on the 99positive ones, but yet I don't
(23:00):
know whether it's just me orwhether it's everyone, but it's
like I'm built to fixate on thenegative, which is It's not what
I like to think that I'm about,but it's so hard not to.
SPEAKER_01 (23:12):
Well, I think also I could admit that I had this
pressure that I put on myself.
And my dad used to say, beingperfect is boring.
And I think about thatsometimes, but putting that
pressure on yourself, after awhile, we all realize that we
make mistakes, whether we likeit or not.
(23:35):
And How have you learned to copewith those situations, you know,
where you have to pick yourselfup and you've got to continue?
What is it that you do to try tocope with those feelings?
SPEAKER_00 (23:47):
In recent times, I've really started to notice
like if things start to pile upand I feel like I'm getting
overwhelmed with everything thatI have to get done to the point
where I can feel the anxietyreally creeping up or getting
stronger and stronger about whatit is that I need to do.
I found that and I kind ofalmost started to mention it
(24:08):
before that I'd never been bigat writing lists.
And I've recently realized thatif I can slow things down And I
can write a list of everythingthat I need to get done so I
don't forget stuff.
And if I start focusing on onetask at a time and taking them
off rather than being reallyfrantic and jumping around and
trying to get everything done atonce and freaking out that
(24:30):
there's too much to do.
if I can take one off at a time,I can go, all right, that's
done.
And now this list doesn't seemas big and you can slowly start
to take it off.
It can just be so hard.
I found in the, in the past to,to slow things down and just
breathe and relax and sort ofwork on taking off a task at a
time until, until the mountaindoesn't seem so mountainous, you
(24:52):
know, but it is something thathas helped a lot me recently.
And in my, my notes on mycomputer, I just, full of lists
now, which is so strange for me.
It was never a part of mypersonality or something that I
did.
SPEAKER_01 (25:06):
I think, you know, as time goes on, we develop
different techniques.
And we try so many differentthings to help us deal with
things like feeling overwhelmed.
And I do think it really helpsto write things down on a piece
of paper, something so simple,because it takes it out of our
heads and puts it on paper.
So we don't have to spiral andthink about it, you know, 100
(25:29):
times.
And then checking it off is avisual thing that you could see
that said, I accomplished this.
I don't have to think about itanymore.
So it's a simple thing, but it'sreally effective.
SPEAKER_00 (25:42):
That's absolutely right.
It's certainly something thatstarted to work for me, which
has been great.
SPEAKER_01 (25:47):
Yeah, you know, when you think about mental health,
you could think about so manydifferent solutions.
Some people use nutrition orlifestyle change.
They might try therapy,medication.
They might even try toself-medicate with drugs and
alcohol.
I mean, what else have you triedthat has either worked or not
(26:09):
worked for you?
I
SPEAKER_00 (26:12):
think that the biggest thing for me is
generally music and it's gettingon stage and getting out as much
as I possibly can.
During times in which I'vespiraled, I probably found
myself partying too much.
I mean, there were slightlydifferent times when I didn't
have two children and a hangoverhurts way more now.
(26:32):
But I'm not sure it wasessentially that I was...
I suppose it was medicating in asense.
I've always loved to party.
I've always been a really loud,extroverted person who loves
being around people.
But when you are feeling...
down and you are feeling likeyou're missing something, you
can go to try and replace thatwith partying and being out and
being around lots of people anddrinking and doing all sorts of
(26:55):
things.
But there comes a point when youstart to realize how vacuous
that can be as well.
And it was probably times in mylife where I have tried to
medicate myself or help to feelhappier about whatever I was
doing by going out and partying.
And I'm not saying that partyingis bad by any stretch of the
imagination, but there obviouslycan come a point where things
(27:18):
like that can getself-destructive.
And I started at times to feellike I was living this vacuous
life that didn't mean a hell ofa lot.
And it was probably because Iwas doing that more than
actually trying to be productiveand get things done to make
myself feel better.
So once again, it's just reallyjust sort of talking about these
things that become viciouscycles, you know, doing
(27:40):
something to fill some hole thatthen leaves you feeling worse.
And it just goes around andaround and around until you can
work out how to get off thetrain, I suppose.
SPEAKER_01 (27:50):
Yeah.
You know, you talk about yourwife and your two kids and how
life is different from thesingle life or the partying
life.
How has being married and havingyour children, when you look at
your life today, how does thatsupport your mental health?
SPEAKER_00 (28:09):
my wife's actually a trained psychotherapist which is
is quite
SPEAKER_03 (28:14):
quite convenient
SPEAKER_00 (28:15):
yeah not not that I don't think she's ever tried to
tried to well I mean she'sprobably spent our entire
existence together trying to fixme and change me but I'm kidding
she'll hear that and beabsolutely horrified but I've
noticed a lot in myself that mywife levels me out a lot you
know I've got two kids now andthey're up at 6 30 every morning
(28:37):
but Naturally, I will sit up allnight and watch something or
have another drink or just getcarried away and other stuff.
Whereas my wife helps to levelout some of my bad habits that
are probably self-destructiveand not necessarily destructive.
trying to destruct myself, butshe helps to negate a few of my
tendencies that I will naturallylean towards.
(29:00):
And it's not to be that shewould be taking away something
that I enjoy.
It's probably really helping meto survive.
SPEAKER_01 (29:09):
What are some of those things?
SPEAKER_00 (29:11):
Like predominantly that I will stay up, that I
won't go to sleep.
I'll stay up all night and watchthings or do things or I'll work
on more stuff or I'll go and,you know, clear all the emails
that I was meant to do ratherthan sleep.
And then the next day I wake upat 6, you know, the kids get up
at 6.30 and you're gone again.
You know, that just cumulativelygets worse and worse.
I mean, because you just end upso tired.
(29:33):
You know, one of the otherthings is, you know, I stopped
smoking because of– my wife andmy children stop smoking
cigarettes that's something thatI know within myself that if my
wife and my kids weren't here Iwould absolutely still be doing
that and I know it's bad for meand I know it's it's something
that I shouldn't do but it'sonly really because they're dead
(29:54):
that I don't do it which is it'ssuch a strange thing to say
probably an indictment uponmyself in certain ways but it's
basically what I'm trying to getacross is that these people have
changed me for the better andhave helped me curb some of the
tendencies that I have that areprobably not so good.
SPEAKER_01 (30:14):
Well, that's nice to acknowledge that.
And healthy relationships dothat.
And I'm sure there are reallypositive things that you bring
to the relationship that haschanged your wife and kids to
make it a much more beautiful
SPEAKER_00 (30:30):
thing.
I'd hope so.
I'm not sure they'll say thatthough.
SPEAKER_01 (30:34):
Well, now that the world is opening up, bands are
going back on tour.
And sometimes the good habitsthat we have developed, even
during the pandemic, we'vedeveloped a new routine at home,
sometimes goes out the windowwhen we go on tour.
What are some things that youwould like to do to make mental
(30:55):
health a priority while you'reon tour with your band?
SPEAKER_00 (30:59):
So my voice is a big part of my life.
If I can't sing, I'm kind ofscrewed.
And not just mentally, butphysically as well.
If I can't sing, then I can't doa show.
And if I can't do a show, thenthere's issues.
And that really plays on mymental health.
So I know that when my voice isnot going so well, when I don't
(31:20):
feel so good vocally, that thatreally does start to bring me
down.
I get anxious.
I get depressed.
I get all sorts of thingsbecause of that.
So for me going out on tour,it's trying to make sure that
when I finish a set that I'm notstaying out and partying with
everyone till four in themorning because I know that my
voice isn't going to pullthrough.
It's going to be tired and it'sgoing to be rough and it'll just
(31:43):
get worse and worse as the tourgoes on.
So it's about reminding myselfand actually just being
strong-willed enough to curb mynatural instinct to go and party
with everyone and be the life ofthe party.
and go, you know what, I can sitthis one out and go to bed and
make sure that the show tomorrowis amazing because if I do go
(32:07):
out and party, there'sdefinitely going to be a chance
that my voice isn't going towork the next day.
And then that's really going tomess with my mental health
because I'm going to bestressed.
I'm going to be anxious.
And then I'm going to bedepressed because I can't sing
as well as I should.
And I'm not going to deliverwhat I want to do for the fans.
That's a big one.
It's about being strong-willed,about curbing my natural
instincts to just go and stayout all night and party with
(32:28):
everyone.
Yeah,
SPEAKER_01 (32:31):
it does.
It takes discipline for sure.
Huge.
Yeah, you know, you and the bandhave become mental health
advocates for your fans, for themusic industry.
And although mental health isbeing talked about more in the
industry, what do you think canbe done better in regards to
(32:51):
mental health?
SPEAKER_00 (32:53):
The most important part is being able to, to, to
normalize these things and beingable to talk about it.
I mean, we talk a lot about, youknow, reaching out to people if
you're feeling down, but alsobeing, not waiting for someone
to reach out to you if you feelthat they should.
But I think we can notnecessarily fix all that, but if
we can change that and we canmake this a normal thing that
(33:16):
people go, you know what?
I'm not doing so well today.
that's going to go a long way tohelping people.
Because if we can pull thestigma away and not make people
feel demonized by the fact thatthey're going through these
things, then it's going to beincredibly helpful.
The music industry is aparticularly tricky one because
(33:36):
our job is a piece of our soulin a song and then give it to
the world and let them do whatthey will with it and trample on
it in a lot of regards.
So, you know, the It's such atough industry to protect
yourself in because you aregiving these very important
things of yourself to the world.
And with online now, people arewilling to say whatever the hell
(33:59):
they want.
And in some cases, we'll justtroll in the sense that they're
happy to say negative thingsjust to hurt people because it's
faceless.
There's a lot that needs to bedone in supporting musicians to
be able to to be able to kind oflet that go.
And I find that hard.
And I mean, I've always had arelatively thick skin, but I
(34:21):
still find it difficult that Ican see everyone's comments.
In a world in which we didn'thave comment sections and things
like that, it was a lot harderto hear the noise about what
people were saying positively ornegatively about you.
But it's all there out in theopen now.
So it's something that we haveto look at to support musicians
(34:42):
within the industry to be ableto deal with that.
And I don't know exactly whatthe answer is, but I do know
that if we can start to, tonormalize and destigmatize
mental health issues, we will beable to really bring about some
positive change.
I think.
SPEAKER_01 (34:58):
I agree.
I agree.
And I know that your band iswork with mental health
organizations like I am hope andbring people dancing.
Um, Would you be open to workingwith other organizations in the
name of mental health, or do youhave plans to do that for the
future?
Oh,
SPEAKER_00 (35:17):
big time.
Since the band's realized thatthis is something that we want
to be a part of, we'll work withanyone that will help us.
If it means we can get a messageout there, you know, I don't
necessarily think we're going tochange the world, but if we can
help to change someone's world,I think that's quite important.
I mean, the big reason for thisEP that we've talked about, the
CoLab project, It all came aboutbecause we wanted to make our
(35:41):
own mental health initiativethat will start to help with the
whole idea of being aboutnormalizing these issues and
being able to talk about them.
And that's why we've gone to toall these incredible artists
like Kellen and like TrentonWoodley of Hands Like Houses and
Sonny Sandoval of POD and gone,get involved with this.
Can you please lend yourincredible voice to these songs?
(36:03):
It's a little bit more than themusic.
And the whole idea is aboutbeing able to reach out and
connect with people.
The CoLab project is...
there's so much room for us towork with various organizations
around the world and and what wecan try and do and if there's
anything that we can do to useour voice to lend hand to to
anyone doing this amazing workthen you know we will be there
and we will do whatever we canin our power to to help and get
(36:26):
these messages out there
SPEAKER_01 (36:28):
thank you so much for that because it really does
make a difference i mean itsounds corny to say you know if
you can change one life, but onelife could have been Chester
Bennington of Lincoln Park orChris Cornell of Soundgarden or
whatever.
Anybody, one of your fans out inthe audience.
I mean, everybody's life isimportant.
And once they know that there'shope and someone like yourself
(36:51):
has figured out solutions todeal with anxiety and
depression, that they can go outand find their own solutions.
And we have our website,checkyourheadpodcast.com, where
we have over 110 differentorganizations and nonprofits,
apps, telehealth, so thatpeople, once they...
realize they need help they canstart trying different solutions
(37:14):
to see what works for thembecause everybody's different
and the cause of mental healthcan be so many different reasons
so you've got to really find outwhat the core of the reason is.
SPEAKER_00 (37:25):
Absolutely.
And that's just it.
We're all different.
And your version of a mentalhealth struggle is probably
different to mine.
Our chemical makeup isdifferent.
So something that'll work for meis not necessarily going to work
for everyone.
And I definitely don't have theanswers for how to fix these
things.
But I do know that if we cantalk about it, then people are
(37:45):
going to feel more comfortabletrying to find their own
solutions.
They're going to seek help.
Whatever it is that that helpsyou get through these things and
helps you find your ability totalk or seek help, whether it be
music, whatever it is.
Use it.
Use whatever you can becausethese things are normal.
Let's make them normal.
That's a huge part of what it isthat we need to do here is make
people understand that they'renot broken.
(38:09):
They're not wrong.
They're not weak.
Let's stop beating ourselves upabout them and give yourself a
break.
It's something that we need totalk about and we need to fix
together.
SPEAKER_01 (38:21):
Right, right.
And it's not their fault, but itis their responsibility to find
help.
SPEAKER_00 (38:27):
That's
SPEAKER_01 (38:27):
right.
And oftentimes it does take openenergy to do that.
So thank you for providing thatbecause that is what you are
providing is hope, which is soimportant.
Next, Kat Jensen and I will talkabout perfectionism and how this
can often derail musicians, yetif recognized, can be tamed to
help you reach your goals.
(38:48):
Kat Jensen is a musician,formerly of the band Love Toys,
living with mood disorders andcurrently achieving her dream of
getting her college degree.
Now let's hear Kat Jensen and Italk about the dangers of
perfectionism.
Well, today we have Kat Jensen,one of my favorite friends and
musicians.
Welcome, Kat.
SPEAKER_02 (39:08):
Hey Mari, how are you?
It's so great to be here.
And before we get started, Iknow that we have
congratulations in order for youand for Check Your Head Mental
Health for Musicians on thePeople's Choice Award.
I'm so happy that the message isgetting out to those that really
can use it.
SPEAKER_01 (39:29):
Thank you so much.
I mean, I was really thrilled.
But today we're going to betalking about perfectionism.
Michael Murphy of Written byWolves really talked a lot about
how perfectionism kind of creepsinto his day-to-day work.
SPEAKER_02 (39:47):
A lot of the perfectionism that he has dealt
with has caused him to besuccessful in his craft.
It has given him motivation topursue, to hone his craft.
craft as a musician.
The downside though, is, isthere are parts of perfectionism
where it becomes large.
It becomes so big, like thevolume becomes so loud that it's
(40:10):
almost like you get thisdistorted feedback going in your
head and now you get paralyzed.
So it's a matter of honing that,bringing the volume down and
being able to see a bit moreclearly and help that become a
tool, not something that's goingto get in your way.
SPEAKER_01 (40:28):
Right.
We're going to talk about thedangers of perfectionism.
And one of the things thatMichael talked about is if you
have this desire to be the bestall the time, that's a very high
goal, especially when learningsomething new is built on making
(40:49):
mistakes.
I mean, to me, making mistakes,once we think about those and
try to figure out what is goingto work.
It's almost like a buildingblock toward getting to your
goal.
SPEAKER_02 (41:02):
That's true.
That's an interesting thing thatyou point out because for you,
you have a very fluid mindset.
You have what we call growthmindset.
And that allows people to lookat challenges and be able to
say, okay, well, maybe thisdidn't work this time, but
(41:25):
Something better is around thecorner.
They can become more optimisticabout growing from what they've
just gone through.
But see, many people are wiredwith a fixed mindset, and
oftentimes people who haveperfectionism have more of a
fixed mindset.
They tend to feel that thetalent is inborn.
(41:46):
It's sort of part of you.
So fixed mindsets tend to lookat every criticism.
They have a very hard timegrowing from what they've
learned.
They focus more on thenegativity that comes from it
because they feel they should bealready great.
They should already be able tohit these high milestones or
(42:10):
these benchmarks that they havein their minds.
And like you said, you can neverget to that point because it's
so...
elevated, it's unrealistic.
SPEAKER_01 (42:22):
Right.
And then if you always have thatgoal of having everything turn
out perfectly, which it neverdoes, whenever something
happens, then all that negativetalk starts to come into your
head like, oh my gosh, I'm sostupid.
What a fool I am.
I can't believe I did that.
(42:42):
And you just go down a downwardspiral.
Yeah.
The other thing, too, is thatwhen you're in a creative field,
you can go on forever to perfector change or add something, take
something out.
So that's why it's so importantto have deadlines.
SPEAKER_02 (43:02):
Deadlines are a fantastic strategy to finally
say, you know, I'm going to giveit this much attention.
And then I'm not going to worrymy head anymore and go from
there.
I love the idea of setting uplists if you have to, because
you might have a million thingsyou're worried about, and then
(43:22):
it becomes overwhelming.
It's one big, huge thing.
So the idea is to break thingsdown into more doable pieces,
right?
That eases the anxiety that goesalong with it, too.
SPEAKER_01 (43:36):
Well, it also takes out all of the worry from your
head.
I mean, I know that I wake up inthe middle of the night, can't
get to sleep.
You're worrying.
You're thinking about things.
Maybe you have ideas.
Putting them all down on paper,it has it so that you can start
checking those items off.
And Michael says that he usesthese lists.
(43:58):
And I do too.
It's such a simple thing.
But every time you see somethingdifferent, marked off, it does
feel like accomplishment.
You can feel yourself movingtowards your goal.
SPEAKER_02 (44:10):
Sure.
Absolutely.
I keep what I call the generaljournal.
It's just filled with all kindsof things.
I have an external place to putthoughts or feelings or even
pieces of songs or I just puteverything down into this and I
keep it by my bed because I dowake up in the middle of the
(44:32):
night often with these travelingthoughts and just jotting them
down can give you a little senseof relief like you've got it
somewhere
SPEAKER_01 (44:39):
yeah so the dangers of perfectionism one thing about
procrastination if you're alwaysthinking about the failure that
can happen with a mistake itjust makes you not want to do it
You're just trying to avoid thatbecause you know inevitably
there is going to be a mistake.
SPEAKER_02 (44:58):
That can be very terrifying, especially with
anybody that not only has issueswith perfectionism but may have
some social anxiety.
Making sure that everybodythinks everything's great is so
important.
They take any criticism verytough, especially in this
business.
There are some real things to beworried about out there.
(45:21):
When you're a musician, you'revulnerable.
you're you're out there on stageyou've got your original music
and within seconds the audienceis going to decide whether they
like you or they don't and andif it's a good night or and
everything's going that'sfantastic but there's always the
fear of another night that wherethings aren't right and you got
(45:42):
to keep up face and you'reworried about what people are
going to think and sometimesthose feelings are so
overwhelming that someone willsay screw it i'm just not I'm
not going to take that gig.
And it can come to the pointwhere people are very talented
and then they isolate.
They don't want to do more.
So the procrastination may looklike laziness.
(46:06):
It might look like you don'tcare.
It might look like you'd rathergo party.
It might look like those things.
But the underlying current isthat fear of failure and the
anxiety that it brings on.
SPEAKER_01 (46:20):
And indecisiveness is another thing.
I used to be with somebody whohad this perfectionism
personality, and he would alwayswant me to make the decisions.
And after a while, it getstiring.
But it's because if somethinggoes wrong with that decision,
the blame or punishment theyperceive in their mind is not on
(46:42):
them.
It's on somebody else.
SPEAKER_02 (46:45):
Right?
It's all your fault now.
SPEAKER_01 (46:47):
Yeah.
But another danger is they putlimits on their life because
they tend to do the same thingsover and over because they know
the outcome.
They know how to do it.
And when they're presented withsomething new, there could be a
freak out period or angerbecause they don't want to go
(47:08):
through the process of makingmistakes to finally learn how to
do something new.
SPEAKER_02 (47:13):
Right.
And there's a lot of criticalthinking in there when it comes
to people with these tendenciescan often have trouble in
relationships because they bringthat critical element to the
table where nothing will satisfythem even though they may not be
making the decision they've leftit to you they're going to
(47:34):
criticize the decision thatyou've made because again
there's perfectionism that can'tbe met
SPEAKER_01 (47:42):
Or they may be putting their perfectionist ways
onto you, expecting you to alsohave that attitude of
perfectionism.
And that's a lot of anxiety anda lot of pressure.
You know, sometimes kids grow upwith parents that may be giving
them love or attention by theirachievements, opposed to who
(48:05):
they are as kids.
Or maybe they're being severelypunished because of a mistake.
that anyone can make.
I mean, these are things thatcan happen where These fear of
failure is kind of embeddedearly on.
But yes, relationship problemscan definitely happen.
All of this anxiety or anger andfear can come out to the other
(48:29):
person.
And it's usually the peopleclosest to us that we love the
most because there's a trustthere.
SPEAKER_02 (48:35):
Yeah, it's a safer place to be, isn't it?
Because we've learned that,well, they'll still accept me
and they'll forgive me.
And I know that Michael talkedabout his wife.
One thing that I started to do
SPEAKER_01 (49:07):
with my boyfriend...
to kind of encourage thepositive.
Because, you know, human nature,we tend to fixate on the
negative.
And Michael talked about thattoo.
It's like the one social mediacomment that was negative, he's
thinking about that opposed tothe hundred that he got that was
positive.
So what we've been doing is westart off talking about
(49:30):
something that we enjoyed aboutour day, something positive, but
also something that we wereproud of that we did, whether
it's work or play or withsomebody else, just something so
that we could feel good aboutourselves.
Because I do think a lot ofthese issues come from really
(49:50):
not loving ourselves for who weare, with all the flaws and all
the good and all the bad and allthe terrible stuff that happens
in our lives, to accept all ofthat.
We also talk about any fears orconcerns or just topics in
general.
I mean, a topic could be anupcoming vacation or it could be
a fear.
(50:10):
Like, I'm afraid of what's goingto happen next year when you go
on tour and I'm going to be herealone.
You know, things like that.
And then also ending withsomething that we appreciate
about each other.
And it could be something verysimple, like you made...
Such an amazing dinner for metonight when you knew I was
(50:32):
under pressure with thisdeadline.
And I really appreciate that.
It shows me how much you careand love me.
SPEAKER_02 (50:39):
Right.
So now we're focusing on anotherthing that we can do that can
give some positivereinforcement, right?
And that's a really good tool tohave in your toolbox as well,
changing that critical voice.
And all it takes is are thesepositive affirmations.
And believe me, these can havesuch a significant impact on
(51:02):
your daily life.
Anywhere from helping tochallenge those negative
thoughts that come into yourmind, you're going to come back
and And say, you know what?
Screw you.
Quit telling me I can't do this.
I can do this.
I can do this well.
And I'm good enough.
And whatever I do is enough.
So use affirmations towardsyourself for that critical
(51:25):
voice.
Use the positive affirmationstowards your family, your loved
ones, so that you gain support.
Because support is so ultimatelyimportant.
We need to keep things on thepositive side because we do tend
to go toward the negative.
So these little things mightseem funny, might seem silly.
I'm going to talk back to myselfthat way.
(51:46):
But they work.
And so if you have something inyour life that can work, just
keep doing it.
Keep doing it.
Because you're going to form newneural pathways in your brain
that are going to support all ofthe positivity.
Most of us go down the negativeroute so long that the synapses
in our brain, they continuallygo down that same pathway and
(52:10):
the old tapes just keep goingand you go back right through
that cycle.
Just the cycle of Depression,anxiety, perfectionism, all of
it that's like a chicken or eggroutine here.
I'm telling you, I can do thisso well that, I mean, my head
gets so scrambled up.
It's like I've got nothing butscrambled eggs in my head.
(52:33):
I can make an omelet, man.
Breaking it down.
Positive thinking.
SPEAKER_01 (52:39):
That makes perfect sense.
And the thing that I reallyloved about what you said is to
create new ways of thinkingbecause we get so caught up in
the automatic loop that happensthat it's almost like a fish
swimming upstream.
To continue to practice, to bepositive, be encouraging, be
supportive.
(53:00):
I mean, I love telling people.
my friends, what I love aboutthem, what I really appreciate
about them.
And you wouldn't believe howmany are so surprised and
shocked.
You do
SPEAKER_02 (53:12):
do that.
You get it with me too.
And I just, I love it.
So it feels really good on bothends.
SPEAKER_01 (53:18):
So another one that we want to talk about is a
danger is the health problemsthat could happen when all of
this stress builds in our life.
We talked about insomnia, youknow, headaches, We talked about
mood disorders, also physicaldisorders like heart disease and
diabetes.
(53:39):
But one thing I really want totalk about is how stress causes
this elevation of cortisol,causes this adrenaline in our
bodies that's not supposed to bethere 24-7.
It's supposed to be there forthose moments that we really
need it when we need to run awayfrom a speeding car that's about
to hit us.
SPEAKER_02 (54:00):
It's that fight or flight when you're about to
encounter a bear or something.
It goes way back to what'singrained in us, probably
evolutionary, because there wasa time when man did have to
fight all of those things.
But now your body doesn't knowthe difference between whether a
bear is chasing us or the touris all screwed up because of
(54:23):
COVID or whatever it is.
SPEAKER_01 (54:25):
Right.
And then one after the other,like you're rehearsing and then
something goes wrong.
bad with rehearsal.
You're thinking about yourfamily, being away from them.
There's so many things that keepus with this go, go, go life
that even if we're having a goodtime, this adrenaline and
cortisol that's coursing throughour bodies for too long starts
(54:48):
to build up.
And that's when people burn out.
And burnout could look likeanxiety, can look like a panic
attack, can look likedepression.
And it's almost your body's wayof saying, you know what, I've
had enough.
We're going to put you down fora while until you can get
better.
SPEAKER_02 (55:05):
That forces you to stop, right?
I mean, sometimes stress is oneof these things where we don't
always know how the degree itmight be affecting us.
Some people live off of stress.
They love to get out there, bethe life of the party, like
Michael said, or get out thereand just run, run, run, do
everything.
But that stress can build up andwe don't realize what's
(55:29):
happening within our own bodies.
We don't hear what the messageis until it smacks us in the
face.
So Yeah, and cortisol isbasically a hormone.
It's a hormone that everybodysecretes, but the levels can
just get too high when you'reunder chronic stress and
something's going to explode.
(55:50):
And hopefully it's not yourheart or you become diabetic or
you have a stroke.
I mean, these are all thingsthat are really attached to the
lack of being able to recognizeand deal effectively in a
healthy way.
stress because we live in asociety where sometimes stress
(56:13):
is rewarded oh i worked overtimeand i got this big project or
let's work harder let's go youknow and and not being able to
to recognize that your bodyneeds to be nurtured but you got
to learn how to take care ofyourself and recognize the
science
SPEAKER_01 (56:32):
and making your physical and mental health a
priority because that really isthe foundation of your life, a
big foundation.
And we talked about professionaltherapy, but there are other
kinds of therapy that we canutilize with our family, with
our friends, with maybe amentor, someone that we admire,
(56:52):
how they're living their life.
Talking things out and talkingthings through with people
really is a wonderful way tovent and to get advice from
someone else and also anopportunity to share your story
and what's really going on inyour life.
I mean, these hiccups andsometimes tornadoes in our life
(57:14):
can really be the things thatcan help bond us together.
Because we all know that goingthrough something difficult with
somebody and getting through theother side and getting better,
there's a special bond thathappens.
And people really appreciatehonesty, vulnerability.
It's really the glue thatconnects us.
(57:37):
And it could be really withanyone.
SPEAKER_02 (57:39):
Yeah.
And it's important to point outhere, too, that when we are
not...
coping with things in a healthyway, it's very easy to isolate.
Isolating yourself is definitelya big sign and you want to
realize that if I start doingthat, maybe it's time to get out
(58:00):
of my comfort zone and find afriend, talk to someone.
Actually, there are supportgroups out there and just
allowing yourself to bevulnerable enough to get out and
just mingle and get the focusoff yourself and realize that
other people are dealing withthese things too.
It could help you realize thatyou're not that alone.
So find your way of gainingconnection.
(58:24):
Find your way of gainingsupport.
12-step programs are wonderful.
Listen, you don't have to be analcoholic to practice the 12
steps.
There's a lot of principles inthere that are great.
There's 12 steps for everything.
It can help get you connectedwith others that are feeling
similar feelings.
And this can get you out ofyourself and get you in a better
(58:47):
place.
SPEAKER_01 (58:49):
And, you know, one thing that you said about
support groups, there issomething really special that
happens when you are able tohelp somebody else.
And then also when you're ableto accept help from somebody
else, there's a great energythat happens.
To me, it's like the circle oflife, being able to give help
and receive help because we allneed help.
(59:11):
And, you know, we can't knoweverything.
And when it comes to a mooddisorder, we really want to hear
from people that have hadexperience or from professionals
who also have experience withothers in different treatments
and therapies.
SPEAKER_02 (59:26):
I mean, for myself, therapies helped a great deal.
There are millions of thingsthat you could do, but it just
takes the one thing is yourwillingness to step out there
into the unknown and to do it.
SPEAKER_01 (59:40):
Right.
And to expect that, you knowwhat, we're going to make
mistakes and mistakes are thebuilding block of success.
And to accept ourselves for whowe are and that we all have
flaws in some way.
And those flaws make usbeautiful.
Those flaws connect with eachother.
And to me, it's the color oflife to be able to see all the
(01:00:02):
good, see the bad and try tomake the best of our lives and
accept and love each other forwho we are.
Exactly.
SPEAKER_02 (01:00:10):
Let's rev up that toolbox.
SPEAKER_01 (01:00:13):
A big thank you to our musical guest, Michael
Murphy of Written by Wolves, andour musician health expert, Kat
Jensen.
For more information on Writtenby Wolves and to purchase the
collab project EP, visitwrittenbywolves.com, follow the
band on their socials, atWritten by Wolves, and stay
tuned to hear a clip of Help MeThrough the Night, featuring
(01:00:34):
Kellen Quinn of Sleeping withSirens.
So until next time.
Be brave, ask for help, and bepersistent in finding the mental
help that you need.
(01:01:16):
Check Your Head Podcast iskindly supported and partnered
with Sweet Relief MusiciansFund, DBSA San Gabriel Valley,
Ear Shop Media, and Lemon TreeStudios in Los Angeles.
Visit checkyourheadpodcast.comwhere we have over 100 solutions
for mental health.
Be our friends on social mediaat Check Your Head Podcast.
(01:01:36):
Watch us on YouTube and supportus with a kind donation on
checkyourheadpodcast.com.
Check Your Head podcast issponsored by a 501c3 nonprofit
with all donations being taxdeductible.
Thank you for your support andthank you for listening.
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